1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,319 Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the 2 00:00:03,319 --> 00:00:06,440 Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up 3 00:00:06,599 --> 00:00:10,679 where we left off with the Michael Thomas deposition with 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,800 the OIG inspectors. Question and I'm sorry you may have 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:19,399 said this, but I don't recall after you did chess compressions, 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:21,719 you said you did it for like a minute before 7 00:00:21,719 --> 00:00:25,320 they responded Thomas, Yeah, maybe about a minute, nothing more 8 00:00:25,359 --> 00:00:30,640 than a minute. Question Okay, Thomas, it seemed like a flash. 9 00:00:30,879 --> 00:00:34,560 Question Okay, Thomas, it seemed like a flash that everybody 10 00:00:35,359 --> 00:00:38,799 was inside the room. Question okay. And when they came in, 11 00:00:39,079 --> 00:00:43,039 what did they do? Thomas? Once the medical staff I 12 00:00:43,039 --> 00:00:45,640 can't remember his name. Once he came and was doing 13 00:00:45,759 --> 00:00:48,320 chess compressions, I know I got a little exhausted and 14 00:00:48,399 --> 00:00:51,880 tired and everything like that he was doing chess compressions. 15 00:00:52,039 --> 00:00:54,840 He put the AED on and then that's about all 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,679 I can remember. That the guy put the AED on, 17 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,439 and I know he told me to stand back. Question 18 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:02,759 all right, and did you did he check for a 19 00:01:02,799 --> 00:01:09,400 breath or pulse? Thomas? I really can't remember. Question do 20 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,799 you know when they put the AD on? Did it 21 00:01:12,879 --> 00:01:16,120 ever advise for a shock? Or anything like that. Thomas, 22 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,359 I don't remember. Question you don't recall, Thomas, I don't remember. 23 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,000 Question So when they came in, did you stay in 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,760 the room or at that point? Thomas? Yeah, I stayed 25 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,040 in the room. Question Okay, Thomas I actually helped to 26 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,840 carry him downstairs. Question all right? And was that medical 27 00:01:32,879 --> 00:01:36,480 personnel Thomas, he was with us the whole time? Question? 28 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,000 And what was his name? Thomas, I can't really remember. 29 00:01:41,519 --> 00:01:45,680 Question No, Thomas. Question but he's the one who took 30 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,560 over chess compressions. Thomas. Yeah, he took over chess compression. 31 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,239 He was in the room the whole time. Question all right, 32 00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:56,400 and you said you were trained on CPR though, Thomas, yeah. 33 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,480 Question okay, do you know when the last time you 34 00:01:59,519 --> 00:02:05,560 were trained on CPR? Thomas had to be Art? Question Art? 35 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,960 Are you always every year trained on CPR? Thomas? Every year? 36 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:15,039 At Art? There's training? Question Okay, So like April of 37 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,599 twenty nineteen would have been the last time Thomas okay. 38 00:02:19,039 --> 00:02:23,280 Question um, all right, So after a medical emergency, called 39 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,039 walk me through that a little bit in detail. What happened? 40 00:02:27,439 --> 00:02:30,280 So he came, the medical person comes in, he starts 41 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,400 going chess compressions. About how long is he doing that? Thomas, 42 00:02:34,439 --> 00:02:36,960 I don't know. I don't know how long he was 43 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,960 doing them before he put the AAD on. I couldn't 44 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,639 tell you how long he was on before he actually 45 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,960 put the AED because the AED right on the you 46 00:02:47,039 --> 00:02:49,719 see the one right there and show. I know there's 47 00:02:49,759 --> 00:02:51,919 one right there on the ninth floor. So I don't 48 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,719 know how long ago that he was doing chess compressions 49 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,719 before he actually put the AAD on. I couldn't tell you. 50 00:02:58,439 --> 00:03:01,560 Maybe thirty seconds, I don't know. Oh. Question And at 51 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,039 that time, did you believe that he was alive or dead? Thomas? 52 00:03:05,319 --> 00:03:07,840 I had so many things going through my mind. I 53 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,000 was just hoping everything worked out. Question Okay, So what 54 00:03:12,159 --> 00:03:14,639 was going through your mind at the time, Thomas, A 55 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,479 whole lot. What's going on? There's a man in front 56 00:03:17,479 --> 00:03:19,759 of me, you know what I mean? That's it, just 57 00:03:20,039 --> 00:03:22,879 that it's a man in front of me hanging. I 58 00:03:23,039 --> 00:03:26,520 just seen him hanging. Question. Yeah. Had you ever had 59 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,159 to respond to something like that before? Thomas? Yeah? Question, 60 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,280 so you've actually had to take people off from hanging 61 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,240 on things? Thomas, No, I've responded to like I've maybe 62 00:03:37,319 --> 00:03:40,400 seen one other hanging, but they cut him down and 63 00:03:40,639 --> 00:03:43,919 like that. But he was actually gotten alive when they 64 00:03:43,919 --> 00:03:48,039 were indiscernible. But yeah, I've seen a few. Question okay, 65 00:03:48,319 --> 00:03:51,479 and you have to do the same type of thing, Thomas. Well, 66 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,240 nothing to where they had to put the AD on 67 00:03:55,319 --> 00:03:59,919 a person, just some chest compressions and they were revived. 68 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,520 Question anybody else die from it? Thomas, not that I 69 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,520 would recall. No question, all right? But now you did 70 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,400 say you ripped it down. You didn't cut it down, Thomas, Yeah, 71 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,439 I just tipped it down, ripped it down. Question in 72 00:04:14,479 --> 00:04:16,800 the past, they actually cut it down, is what you 73 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,920 just said, Thomas. I don't know. Question. Oh I thought 74 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,040 you just said that people were hanging. They cut it down. Thomas. 75 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,279 Maybe if they cut it or if they ripped it down, 76 00:04:27,319 --> 00:04:30,160 I don't know whatever they had at their disposal at 77 00:04:30,199 --> 00:04:33,920 the time. Question. Okay, though, did you ever have to 78 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:39,439 he gets cut off by Thomas cut somebody down? Thomas? No, 79 00:04:39,639 --> 00:04:42,800 this was my first time. Question that was your first 80 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:47,399 time ever being the first responder, Thomas, Yes, question okay, 81 00:04:47,759 --> 00:04:50,240 And do they train you on that on if you 82 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,319 come in and find someone hanging, what you're supposed to do? Thomas? 83 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,720 I don't remember specific training on like that, but I'm 84 00:04:57,759 --> 00:05:00,920 not mistaken it's life limb or something for the bureau 85 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,000 or something. I know I'm not supposed to just let 86 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,160 somebody sit there and hang. Question. No, I'm just saying, like, 87 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,800 do they teach you how to like respond to these things? Thomas? 88 00:05:11,879 --> 00:05:15,800 Maybe it's something in art training. I don't know. Question. Okay, 89 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:19,199 so you know CPR was done in art, but you're 90 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,839 not sure if it was in response He gets caught 91 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,319 off by Thomas. It's in a particular response to if 92 00:05:25,519 --> 00:05:30,079 you see somebody hanging, you do this? No question right, okay, 93 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,680 but is that something that occurs a lot people inmates 94 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,759 hanging themselves at mcc Thomas, Not a lot, but you 95 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,800 know sometimes people have You don't know what someone else's 96 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,480 stressors are they going through at home or what they're 97 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,160 in for. Question Yeah, I guess what I'm asking is like, 98 00:05:49,199 --> 00:05:51,279 does this happen like once a week, once a month, 99 00:05:51,519 --> 00:05:55,319 or once a year? Question mister Thomas. I've been there 100 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,040 for fourteen years. He's been there a lot longer than me. 101 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:04,920 I've seen maybe about seven hangings. Question seven hangings? Thomas, 102 00:06:05,079 --> 00:06:08,480 Uh huh. Question, So if you were to estimate about 103 00:06:08,519 --> 00:06:11,879 one every two years. Thomas, if you want to break 104 00:06:11,879 --> 00:06:14,839 it down to that question, Okay, What did you do 105 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,399 after the medical emergency was called Thomas, After I got 106 00:06:18,439 --> 00:06:22,279 him down? He gets cut off? No, I'm sorry. After 107 00:06:22,319 --> 00:06:25,959 they responded, what did you do? Thomas? After they responded, 108 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,920 I helped carry him downstairs? Question you help them? Thomas, Yeah, 109 00:06:31,079 --> 00:06:34,480 I helped them on the stretcher carry him downstairs. Question 110 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,040 now downstairs he gets cut off by Thomas to the 111 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,399 medical floor. It's the second floor. Question. So if you 112 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,519 went all the way from the shoe all the way 113 00:06:43,519 --> 00:06:46,879 to the second floor Thomas, yes. Question okay, And you 114 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,160 were with them the whole time Thomas, Yes. I was 115 00:06:50,199 --> 00:06:52,759 with them the whole time, and the medical staff was 116 00:06:52,759 --> 00:06:55,120 with me, and it was a bunch of other people 117 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,560 in the elevator at the time. Question, and what were 118 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,560 you doing during that time? Thomas, I was holding the stretcher. 119 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,480 Question because you were one of the people Thomas, yeah. 120 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,319 Question So was it just you and someone else? Thomas, yeah, 121 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,560 me and three other people holding the stretcher. I don't 122 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,079 know who else was in there holding the stretcher, staff 123 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,480 helping bringing him down. Question So it was an actual 124 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,199 stretcher that you had to carry, not something like was 125 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,920 moving them Thomas. Yeah, yeah, it's on a stretcher. They 126 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,800 have stretchers on the wall and you're like that you 127 00:07:29,879 --> 00:07:32,000 have to carry, you get them to the thing, and 128 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,800 then you just go. Did they continue life saving efforts 129 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,040 Thomas the whole time? Question? So while he was being 130 00:07:39,079 --> 00:07:43,519 moved in the stretcher, people were like doing compressions Thomas, yep. 131 00:07:43,959 --> 00:07:46,759 Question was there anything like on his face trying to 132 00:07:46,759 --> 00:07:49,639 give him a error or anything like that? Thomas, I 133 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,399 don't recall. I don't really remember. Question. Okay, do you 134 00:07:53,439 --> 00:07:56,360 have pictures of that stuff? We actually have a ton 135 00:07:56,399 --> 00:08:00,360 of pictures for each Do you remember recall was this life? 136 00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:05,000 Is that? In medical Thomas? It looks like I don't 137 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,879 know if that's the ninth floor? Is that for No? 138 00:08:08,079 --> 00:08:11,360 That says right here, that's the MS question. That's ems 139 00:08:11,399 --> 00:08:14,480 all right. So this isn't anything that's in the cell 140 00:08:14,759 --> 00:08:17,959 or anything like that what we're talking about. Thomas. No, 141 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,879 that's not no, No, that's not question. This is after 142 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:27,240 all the medical Thomas. Yeah, that's all medical question. Do 143 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,959 they know if any pictures were taken while you were 144 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,320 doing this? Medical emergency. Thomas. I doubt it. I'm sure 145 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,240 nobody stopped to grab a camera. Question. Yeah, no, just 146 00:08:37,279 --> 00:08:40,519 because we have all these Thomas, And again I'm not 147 00:08:40,639 --> 00:08:45,559 still I didn't mean nothing by indiscernible. Question. So none 148 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,000 of these pictures have anything to do with you, Thomas. 149 00:08:49,039 --> 00:08:53,159 No question. Were you even in the room during that Thomas, 150 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,080 I wasn't in the room for none of that. Question. Okay, 151 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,360 it doesn't look like we have any pictures of that stuff. 152 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,120 So from the shoe all the way down to the 153 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,360 second floor, you stay with him. You were carrying the 154 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:10,279 stretcher and someone was doing compressions Thomas yup. Question and 155 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,360 trying to revive him. Thomas, So you said that responded 156 00:09:14,399 --> 00:09:18,759 to a medical personnel. I remember seeing and seeing the 157 00:09:18,759 --> 00:09:22,159 medical personnel, and I'm sure the lieutenant was there. Question 158 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,600 do you remember who the lieutenant was? Thomas? No, but 159 00:09:25,639 --> 00:09:29,759 I can remember who was there? Question does lieutenant redacted 160 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,039 sound familiar? Does that make or help you recall? Thomas? 161 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,799 I mean maybe maybe he was there. Question so we 162 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,679 can go back to that duty agent roster Thomas, it 163 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,919 shows that he came on in the morning. Question. Yeah, Thomas, 164 00:09:45,039 --> 00:09:47,519 but you know the two hour prior, but he probably 165 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,759 was there. Question, So you think it was probably him? 166 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,080 And do you remember making any statements after the medical 167 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,759 emergency ride? Thomas, I don't remember what I said. I 168 00:09:58,759 --> 00:10:01,080 could have been saying a whole lot. I mean, like 169 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,960 I said, I just seen a man hanging. Question. Sure, Thomas, 170 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,039 you know I don't remember exactly verbatim what I said 171 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,120 or anything. Question. Do you recall Noel saying we didn't 172 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,639 do our rounds at three am and five am? Thomas? 173 00:10:16,799 --> 00:10:21,559 I don't recall her saying that? Question? All right, Thomas, 174 00:10:21,879 --> 00:10:24,879 I don't remember seeing Noel after this, Actually after I 175 00:10:24,919 --> 00:10:29,519 carried him downstairs. I don't even remember seeing Noel. Question 176 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,919 do you recall saying to Noel that we didn't do 177 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:34,840 the rounds? Did you say that it was not Noel's 178 00:10:34,879 --> 00:10:38,159 fault and say we didn't do the rounds, we messed up? Thomas. 179 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,480 I don't remember saying that. I could have said that. 180 00:10:40,879 --> 00:10:44,080 I don't remember saying it. Question, So you don't remember 181 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,639 saying it's not her fault? Thomas, No, I don't remember 182 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,519 saying anything. Like I said, I don't know what I 183 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,720 said exactly from that time. It was three years ago. Question, 184 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,759 all right, So my only question was, so that's the 185 00:10:59,759 --> 00:11:02,799 state we have is that you stated she said we 186 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,720 didn't do the rounds, and you said, we didn't do 187 00:11:05,799 --> 00:11:09,039 the rounds. We messed up. It's not Noel's fault. And 188 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,320 I was just wondering why you would say that it 189 00:11:11,399 --> 00:11:15,080 wasn't her fault. Do you remember, Thomas, I really don't. 190 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:21,399 I really don't. Question. Yeah, you were just uttering things, Thomas, 191 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,120 just uttering things. Like I said, I don't remember saying that. 192 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,399 I don't remember not saying that. I don't remember that 193 00:11:27,519 --> 00:11:31,080 was said, or who said that I said that? Like 194 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,440 I said, I don't remember saying it. Question, Okay, so 195 00:11:34,519 --> 00:11:37,000 it wasn't like the only reason that I asked is 196 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,639 that it sounds like you were taking responsibility for the 197 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,480 rounds and the counts, and I just wanting to know 198 00:11:42,759 --> 00:11:44,679 if there was a reason why you would have been 199 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:52,480 taking responsibility. Like we said, you're both responsible, Thomas. Indiscernible question, 200 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,360 So I don't know why you take responsibility over her 201 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,759 and saying it's not her fault. Thomas, I don't know 202 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:01,639 why I said anything like that if I said it. Question, 203 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,919 you don't know, Thomas, Like I said, I don't remember 204 00:12:05,279 --> 00:12:08,519 there was a lot going on, all right, folks, We're 205 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:10,720 gonna wrap up right here, and in the next episode 206 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,759 dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we 207 00:12:12,879 --> 00:12:16,039 left off. All the information that goes with this episode 208 00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:18,679 can be found in the description box.