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Speaker 4: Let's you are now listening to True Murder, The most
Speaker 4: shocking killers in True crime History and the authors that
Speaker 4: have written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker BTK.
Speaker 4: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 4: and infamous killers in true crime history.
Speaker 3: True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski,
Speaker 3: Good Evening. This is not a typical story of internet stalking.
Speaker 3: It is an unusual case of friendship and deception so
Speaker 3: pitiless and unyielding that it opened a door to hell
Speaker 3: into the author's life. This is an unforgettable story for
Speaker 3: today's digital world, driven by social media and all of
Speaker 3: its permutations and cruelest forms. A story begins with Susan
Speaker 3: Fenstone's online search for her father's family asserts that soon
Speaker 3: turns into a two year, frightening odyssey of internet stalking
Speaker 3: and threats when a posting on a genealogy message board
Speaker 3: brings her into contact with what she thinks are distant cousins,
Speaker 3: but what turns out to be a through email correspondence
Speaker 3: with her new family, evidence of mental illness, dark family secrets,
Speaker 3: a struggle over wealth, and bizarre criminal histories emerge. She
Speaker 3: quickly becomes the focus of sexual obsession and suspicion, and
Speaker 3: her life is completely turned upside down. She soon becomes
Speaker 3: a target of dozens of frightening characters, including real, verifiable,
Speaker 3: convicted sex offenders, in an elaborate cyber hoax that includes
Speaker 3: threats of kidnap, apping, murder, rape, torture, and cannibalism. Remarkable
Speaker 3: in its complexity, this story of Internet stalking is also
Speaker 3: a sinister and shocking journal of madness, described by the
Speaker 3: FBI as a case in a category by itself. This
Speaker 3: book is a story about the Internet, the search for family,
Speaker 3: a friendship, and a journey into the underbelly of American
Speaker 3: crime that raises questions about safety online and pushes the
Speaker 3: boundaries of our perceptions of what is real and what
Speaker 3: is not. The book that we're featuring this sevening is
Speaker 3: you have a very soft voice, Susan, A shocking true
Speaker 3: story of Internet stalking with my special guest, publicist and author,
Speaker 3: Susan Fensten. Welcome to the program, and thank you very
Speaker 3: much for a green toi's interview. Susan Fensten.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Dan, it's great to be here.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. This is incredible. As I mentioned before,
Speaker 3: among all the unique books that we have on the show,
Speaker 3: this is certainly one of the most unique. As we
Speaker 3: talked about in the just before we got on air.
Speaker 3: Tell us about the genesis of this book. You have
Speaker 3: a very soft voice, Susan. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 3: about what happened in the writing of this and what
Speaker 3: happened during that period of time and that decision. Tell
Speaker 3: us about that.
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate your show, Dan.
Speaker 5: I didn't intend to be an author. I never intended
Speaker 5: to be a writer art and photography or my first loves.
Speaker 5: The book was really a creative challenge as a end
Speaker 5: as well as a way of piecing things back together,
Speaker 5: examining the events, and in very large part examining myself,
Speaker 5: and that some of that was really difficult. Actually a
Speaker 5: lot of it was difficult, So that was it just
Speaker 5: a creative challenge. It's a very tough story. It's a
Speaker 5: bit of a jungle with twists and turns and subplots.
Speaker 5: It was difficult to write, but in doing so I
Speaker 5: was able to understand what happened to me even better
Speaker 5: because for a long time I really wasn't able to
Speaker 5: understand what happened to me. It was just too complex,
Speaker 5: too over my head, and I was just too close
Speaker 5: to it. Of course, it's a lot of it takes
Speaker 5: place online and in the writing of the book. I
Speaker 5: started it about ten years ago and I wrote twenty
Speaker 5: five chapters in about four months, and I was shopping
Speaker 5: it around trying to get attention for it, admittedly taking
Speaker 5: a big risk as an unknown with a wild story signing.
Speaker 5: It frustrated and got turned down by a very big agent.
Speaker 5: So I actually put the book away for three years
Speaker 5: and I just didn't want to finish it. I didn't
Speaker 5: want to deal with it. I had a lot going
Speaker 5: on at work, I was very busy, and I just thought, oh,
Speaker 5: I just don't want to deal with this anymore. And
Speaker 5: that three years, something really amazing happened. It was the
Speaker 5: emergence of social media Facebook, Twitter, etc. I wasn't on
Speaker 5: any of that, and what started to sort of I
Speaker 5: realized after three years when I decided to finish the book,
Speaker 5: was that the world had changed and any concern that
Speaker 5: I had about strange happenings online and real real life
Speaker 5: drama taking place on the internet were dispelled because the
Speaker 5: world had really changed. The Internet had happened, and everything
Speaker 5: was changed forever. So it was kind of an interesting
Speaker 5: genesis of laying fallow and then returning to the crime,
Speaker 5: the book of the Crime, and finishing it and deciding
Speaker 5: just to publish it once and for all.
Speaker 3: As you're writing in the book, you talk about your parents,
Speaker 3: John and Nancy, and you talk about your father studying
Speaker 3: at the Famous Actors Studio with Lee and Susan Strasbourg,
Speaker 3: and his appearances on live television series in the late
Speaker 3: fifties and the sixties. But tell us about your life
Speaker 3: with your mother and your father and your sister Upper
Speaker 3: West Side and then later the Lower east Side. Tell
Speaker 3: us what life was really like and what shaped your
Speaker 3: character in those days.
Speaker 5: I was born in Manhattan on We were living on
Speaker 5: Central Park West on one hundred between one hundred and
Speaker 5: six and one hundred and seventh Street in the early sixties.
Speaker 5: Became close to being born in taxi in Central Park,
Speaker 5: but we made it to the hospital. My parents were
Speaker 5: both artist. My mother was originally from New England and
Speaker 5: she was studying art at the Boston Museum School, and
Speaker 5: she convinced her father to send her to New York
Speaker 5: City to study fashion illustration at Parsons. And when she
Speaker 5: came to New York City in nineteen fifty nine, she
Speaker 5: met my father, John, who was trying his hand at acting,
Speaker 5: and he was a very talented person, very interesting person,
Speaker 5: and he was at the Actors Studio with the Strasburgs
Speaker 5: and was making some headway. Had managed to do some
Speaker 5: Playhouse ninety, which is in a critically acclaimed live television
Speaker 5: program from the nineteen fifties, and my mother and he
Speaker 5: just fell in love and had my sister, and then
Speaker 5: I came along, and by the time I came along,
Speaker 5: things had kind of started to fall apart. He was
Speaker 5: having trouble dealing with the pressure of having children and
Speaker 5: being married and maybe didn't have any other skills, and acting,
Speaker 5: of course, is not a way to pay the bills,
Speaker 5: and he began to kind of disappear and there were
Speaker 5: some absences, and he was sort of coming apart emotionally mentally,
Speaker 5: and made many trips to Bellevue Hospital in New York City,
Speaker 5: which is pretty well known as a psychiatric clinic, and
Speaker 5: that was making things incredibly difficult for us. My mother
Speaker 5: did her best to keep everything together, but when she
Speaker 5: had an opportunity, she thought it would be better if
Speaker 5: they si. She separated, and then we went our own way,
Speaker 5: and life was still tough. She was working as a waitress,
Speaker 5: making about thirty five bucks a week and holding down
Speaker 5: two children by herself with no other help, so it
Speaker 5: was really bare bones. We didn't have much we lived in.
Speaker 5: After we lu moved to the lower we were sort
Speaker 5: of bouncing around from apartment to apartment, barely able to
Speaker 5: keep up with the rent. And we lived on Saint
Speaker 5: Mark's Place, which is a pretty well known street in Manhattan.
Speaker 5: In the village, and though the rent was super cheap,
Speaker 5: we were robbed nine times. We'd come home often from
Speaker 5: school and the apartment would we'd be ransacked. Sometimes the
Speaker 5: couch would be slashed open, uh pills thrown around, aspirin.
Speaker 5: A beautiful fur coat that my mother had sent her
Speaker 5: from my mother had sent my mother's gr mother had
Speaker 5: center from Maine was stolen, the television was stolen. We
Speaker 5: were robbed quite often.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 5: We moved uptown to Spanish Harlem in nineteen sixty seven
Speaker 5: and still a cheap rent close to schools. Things were
Speaker 5: different back then in the city. It was very much
Speaker 5: a like a oh, I'd not say a war zone,
Speaker 5: but in parts it was kind of a war zone, right, junkies, heroine,
Speaker 5: all kinds of things, fires, little riots. There was actually
Speaker 5: a race riot when we moved uptown we first moved
Speaker 5: up there. It was rough, but I we loved it.
Speaker 5: You know, when you're a kid, you love wherever you are.
Speaker 5: You know, childhood is that special time when you can
Speaker 5: make the worth of situations seem great if you can,
Speaker 5: you know, if you have a little bit of spunk
Speaker 5: and a little bit of imagination and if you believe
Speaker 5: in something. But you know, my mother, who was struggling
Speaker 5: very hard, was still an incredibly talented and brilliant person.
Speaker 5: And we struggled a lot, but you know, it was
Speaker 5: sort of like a badge of honor growing up during
Speaker 5: those times with no support. And there was actually one
Speaker 5: time when we were robbed in our hallway at nice
Speaker 5: point by a young kid and he he threatened to
Speaker 5: cut our tongues out if we told anyone, as he
Speaker 5: reached into my sister's pocket and took out her cash.
Speaker 5: So I we we did not live live a sheltered life.
Speaker 5: I mean, we really got full force reality. I mean,
Speaker 5: nothing was spared. That's kind of the way things started out,
Speaker 5: as rough as it all was. I was always very
Speaker 5: interested in art and books and going to museums, and
Speaker 5: I was kind of an introverted kid in a way.
Speaker 5: I sort of took after my mother's artistics bent. My sister,
Speaker 5: on the other hand, was much more of a hell raiser.
Speaker 5: Ran away from home at a very early age at
Speaker 5: age thirteen, moved from New York to Detroit in the
Speaker 5: early nineteen seventies with her boyfriend, who was older and
Speaker 5: at least eighteen years old, and she lived there for
Speaker 5: a year and a half with gypsy's in a Hispanic
Speaker 5: Puerto Rican neighborhood. I'm sure it was very rough. I've
Speaker 5: never been to Detroit, but I can imagine what it
Speaker 5: was like back then. And when she came back, she
Speaker 5: was still kind of on the run. She was a
Speaker 5: hell raiser and running away and finding ways to make
Speaker 5: money that you know, you didn't want to tell your
Speaker 5: parents about. She lived with the Hell's Angels, she got
Speaker 5: thrown out of the Hell's Angels clubhouse. It was more
Speaker 5: I wouldn't say colorful, doesn't really even describe it. But
Speaker 5: this is this is my life. You know, my threshold
Speaker 5: for reality at a very young age was very different
Speaker 5: from maybe others, you know, living in a better situations
Speaker 5: or even slightly better situations. Nevertheless, though all of this
Speaker 5: was just this was just life, right, There was nothing
Speaker 5: you can really change about it. I certainly wasn't a
Speaker 5: much of a hell raiser, but I really wasn't afraid
Speaker 5: of very much. You know, New York City in the
Speaker 5: nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies was a much different place
Speaker 5: than it is now. So that's kind of where I
Speaker 5: come from. Rough beginnings, but always with my eye on
Speaker 5: you know, the sort of transcendental you know, occupations of art, music, books,
Speaker 5: et cetera. So that's how it all kind of began.
Speaker 5: My sister and I were never really all that close.
Speaker 5: She got pregnant at age twenty five, she had a son,
Speaker 5: and then we began to get close again, and that
Speaker 5: was really important for me because I don't have any
Speaker 5: other brothers and sisters, and she was it. My father
Speaker 5: was never around. I didn't see him for decades at
Speaker 5: a time, but my sister really meant a lot to me,
Speaker 5: and she and I became close, and then one day
Speaker 5: I got a call from a detective and who similar
Speaker 5: friend left a note on my door and said that
Speaker 5: to call this detective. And I called this number, and
Speaker 5: this detective was not like it is in the movies
Speaker 5: where they come to your house and they knock on
Speaker 5: your door and gently bring you the news. It's really
Speaker 5: not like that at all. I called this detective. I
Speaker 5: was in a phone booth out in the street. I
Speaker 5: didn't have a phone at the time, and he just said,
Speaker 5: your sister's dead and you have to come down and
Speaker 5: identify the body. Well, that was for the worst day
Speaker 5: of my life, and I still find it very hard
Speaker 5: to talk about now. As you can imagine, she had
Speaker 5: shot herself in the head and killed herself. I was
Speaker 5: just destroyed, and it was you know, grief takes a
Speaker 5: long time. I'm still going through it. But you know,
Speaker 5: when I lost my sister, I lost like half of myself.
Speaker 5: And I, you know, have a small family to begin with,
Speaker 5: and she had her son and helping out with him
Speaker 5: and as best I could. But yet you know, still
Speaker 5: walking around like like the walking wounded. You know, I
Speaker 5: felt like the walking destroyed. So I have a lot
Speaker 5: of losses, big holes in my life and took me
Speaker 5: years and years to sort of just begin to live
Speaker 5: with it. So that's that's the story with that. At
Speaker 5: the time, I was living in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.
Speaker 3: Yeah, tell us about us. Tell us about your life
Speaker 3: in Williamsburg, Brooklyn in eighty six and the circumstances where
Speaker 3: you met Bobby Ironside.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, to jump right off of where I left
Speaker 5: off before the night that I got the news that
Speaker 5: my sister was dead, I didn't have a phone, so
Speaker 5: I ran over to Bobby's building, which is right across
Speaker 5: the street, and I needed to use the phone. He
Speaker 5: was living at south Ford Street and Driggs, which is
Speaker 5: the south side of Williamsburg. I moved to Williamsburg in
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty five. It was an old, beautiful, old neighborhood
Speaker 5: that had sort of was an industrial giant at one
Speaker 5: time that just just decayed and decayed from the nineteen
Speaker 5: fifties and nineteen sixties and seventies, et cetera. A lot
Speaker 5: of drugs, so, you know, so much crime, but there
Speaker 5: was still, you know, thriving communities there. You know, I
Speaker 5: didn't move into an empty lot. I mean there was
Speaker 5: life there and it was a real neighborhood. I loved it.
Speaker 5: Certainly wasn't for the faint of heart, and it wasn't
Speaker 5: very different really from where I'd grown up in the city,
Speaker 5: so I really enjoyed it. And bouncing around trying to
Speaker 5: find the right place to live back then was easy
Speaker 5: because everything was cheap and it was available. And I
Speaker 5: moved into a building on South Fores Street, and I
Speaker 5: met one of my upstairs neighbors, and he was living
Speaker 5: with a friend. He had a roommate upstairs, and he
Speaker 5: was loads of fun, very very talkative, very entertaining, very engaging.
Speaker 5: He could hold the whole room talking with his colorful
Speaker 5: stories and his way of being. He was very funny,
Speaker 5: and we got along right away, and we were good
Speaker 5: friends pretty pretty quickly. So it was that night I
Speaker 5: I I found out my sister died. I ran to
Speaker 5: his building and I ran and knocked on his door,
Speaker 5: and I said, I got to use your phone. He
Speaker 5: was having a party and noise and people. It was
Speaker 5: all kind of a blur to me. But he put
Speaker 5: me in a back room in the apartment and he
Speaker 5: let me use his telephone, where I was able to
Speaker 5: call my mother and tell her the news. So I
Speaker 5: was there in his apartment that night, and that was
Speaker 5: kind of, you know, the first of the you know,
Speaker 5: many cementing steps in our friendship. And he was pretty
Speaker 5: supportive and I was a wreck and dysfunctional, but I
Speaker 5: felt safe in his apartment, calling my mother and bringing
Speaker 5: her the news. Of course, then I had to take
Speaker 5: a taxi downstairs and tell my father the terrible news
Speaker 5: in person because he didn't have a phone. You know,
Speaker 5: he was very reclusive. He lived alone, uh, liked to
Speaker 5: take pictures, worked as a bike messenger, lived in the
Speaker 5: East village, and he was just very much urban high
Speaker 5: planes drift or a real loan er. UH didn't want
Speaker 5: to be bothered, didn't have So I had to go
Speaker 5: down and tell them in person the terrible news. So
Speaker 5: I was in the middle of like for the worst
Speaker 5: transformative experiences of my life. Slowly but surely got on
Speaker 5: my feet, got better jobs, learned some skills, some computer skills,
Speaker 5: and then I landed a temp job working in publishing,
Speaker 5: which was one of the best things that's ever happened
Speaker 5: to me. I've worked in a lot of places in
Speaker 5: the city, a lot of industries. Temping is a great
Speaker 5: way to get into different types of industries banking, finance, fashion, advertising, movies, television.
Speaker 5: I mean, and then there's the boring stuff too, but
Speaker 5: there's a lot of exciting opportunity. I found a job
Speaker 5: in publishing, and I knew this is what I wanted
Speaker 5: to do. It was great books, media, interesting people, interesting
Speaker 5: all the time. Work is never boring, and I just
Speaker 5: basically made myself indispensable to the publicity department at Doubleday Publishing.
Speaker 5: It was at the sixty six to sixth building on
Speaker 5: Fifth Avenue at the time, so I really enjoyed that
Speaker 5: I was exposed to all kinds of things that I
Speaker 5: always loved, you know, I was I was type of
Speaker 5: kid that would go to bookstores and be lost in
Speaker 5: bookstores for hours like that. I'd never get bored. So
Speaker 5: working for a book publisher was like a dream come true.
Speaker 5: And I'd get off the elevator in the morning and
Speaker 5: I'd see Isaac Asimov sitting there waiting in the reception
Speaker 5: area every Wednesday to meet with his editor. Jack yo
Speaker 5: Nassis was an editor there at the time, and she
Speaker 5: was a real attractor for all kinds of you know,
Speaker 5: big personalities, well known people, and it was just like
Speaker 5: became a common everyday thing, and it was exciting, and
Speaker 5: it's still exciting. I still love it. But that was
Speaker 5: the beginning of like, it was really a golden break
Speaker 5: for me to find something I really love to do
Speaker 5: and something that I continued to do. So that's that's
Speaker 5: how I got into the publishing world. I mean, I
Speaker 5: went to art school, you know, I didn't go to college.
Speaker 3: Really.
Speaker 5: I took some art classes at Hunter College, So I
Speaker 5: really wasn't like big on the academic end of things.
Speaker 5: I didn't really like school. But I just needed to
Speaker 5: find something that I really enjoyed, and I was lucky
Speaker 5: to have been able to do that.
Speaker 3: Tell us about a couple of the things that you
Speaker 3: have in common with your new found friend Bobby and
Speaker 3: some of the things that he has interests in that
Speaker 3: you discover.
Speaker 5: Well, Bobby and I were kind of an interesting pair.
Speaker 5: He was gay and I was straight, and I've had
Speaker 5: loads of gay friends. In fact, I love my gay friends.
Speaker 5: They're always great friends to have. Bobby and I shared
Speaker 5: an interest in horror films, and I've always loved horror.
Speaker 5: He always loved horror. We were born a day apart,
Speaker 5: in the same city, the same year, and he was
Speaker 5: tall and blonde and I was kind of smallish and blonde.
Speaker 5: And he would often sort of say that we were
Speaker 5: like brother and sister in a way, and we laughed
Speaker 5: a lot. We shared a lot of things, and we
Speaker 5: would go up into his apartment in his loft and
Speaker 5: watch horror movies really cheap, you know, videos rented from
Speaker 5: the little cheap video store down the street, and we'd
Speaker 5: have a great old time. And there was one particular
Speaker 5: movie that we loved the most, and it was called
Speaker 5: The Honeymoon Killers. And it's a great movie. It's classic,
Speaker 5: and we'd watch it over and over and we knew
Speaker 5: every line and we would recite every line in the
Speaker 5: film and just roll over laughing. It was just the
Speaker 5: greatest camp sort of campy horror Honeymoon Killers, a pair
Speaker 5: of murderers traveling the country, ripping off widows for their
Speaker 5: money and having to kill them sometimes. I mean, he
Speaker 5: dually doesn't get any better than that great cast. It
Speaker 5: became sort of like our word mantra, you know, our
Speaker 5: shared you know, our shared thing, our space. I was
Speaker 5: always interested in true crime, but not like heavily at
Speaker 5: the time. I was more into like horror movies. My
Speaker 5: interest in true crime wouldn't come until a little bit
Speaker 5: later in life. You know. It was I read a lot,
Speaker 5: but I wasn't reading a lot of true crime until
Speaker 5: like maybe the seven oh, like the nineteen nineties. And
Speaker 5: Bobby's interest in true crime was a little more than mine.
Speaker 5: He was really interested in serial killers. And everyone's interested
Speaker 5: in serial killers, of course, tons of books about them, movies, documentaries,
Speaker 5: but this was a guy who really liked them and
Speaker 5: actually started writing to them. But that wouldn't come until
Speaker 5: a little bit later into our friendship. But I might
Speaker 5: be getting a little bit ahead of myself. But he
Speaker 5: obviously had more interest in true crime than I did.
Speaker 5: I love a good scary story, don't get me wrong,
Speaker 5: I really do. But there's a big difference between reading
Speaker 5: about them and then, you know, communicating with them. It's
Speaker 5: very different. Yeah, it's a place where I don't want
Speaker 5: to go. I know that all this stuff is very sellable, marketable.
Speaker 5: It's chic in some circles, it's cool. I you know,
Speaker 5: I prefer a distance to it because, you know, let's
Speaker 5: not ever forget to all of these killers. We always
Speaker 5: remember their names, but really it's the victims the mountains
Speaker 5: and mountains of victims, most of them women, seems to
Speaker 5: be so when you really get into what the reality is,
Speaker 5: it's just a far different experience. And I don't really
Speaker 5: have any tolerance for communicating with murderers.
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Speaker 3: Now you write in the book, and what we haven't
Speaker 3: talked so much about is this real need to have
Speaker 3: some part in your father's life. Despite his oddness and
Speaker 3: his mental problems, you still this sort of need for
Speaker 3: family basically. And so in the early two thousands you
Speaker 3: write about you started looking online investigating a little bit
Speaker 3: about your family, and tell us a little bit about
Speaker 3: why you were doing this and what you found.
Speaker 5: I'd always been curious about my father's side of the family,
Speaker 5: mostly because it was a mystery and there was no
Speaker 5: real lot of real real information about my grandparents any
Speaker 5: other extent relatives. My father never talked much, certainly never
Speaker 5: talked about his family. You know, people are just naturally
Speaker 5: curious about that. You know, kids love I mean kids
Speaker 5: and adults and most people do. They love family stories
Speaker 5: and family histories. What was your father like? Really? There
Speaker 5: was never any of that. It was just like no information,
Speaker 5: no nothing, but it wasn't until the Internet kind of
Speaker 5: got its footing and that I realized that there was
Speaker 5: an outlet now for me to kind of poke around
Speaker 5: a little bit on. It was genealogy dot com. Now,
Speaker 5: websites back then were very clunky, not like they are today.
Speaker 5: Everything's very slick, everything moves today. Back then, it was
Speaker 5: just like this sort of message board with threads counting
Speaker 5: down like. It was very crude. It was very primitive,
Speaker 5: and there were hundreds and hundreds of messages on every
Speaker 5: family page. And it seemed like the very beginning of
Speaker 5: what is now the huge ancestry search thing. It's just
Speaker 5: now tremendous, But I wasn't really expecting much, so I thought, well,
Speaker 5: I'm gonna just leave a message here and see what happens.
Speaker 5: So my name is fenced in, but originally back in
Speaker 5: my ancestry, the name was Feinstein, and there were no
Speaker 5: fenced in pages on this website, but there was a
Speaker 5: big Feinstein page and there were lots of activity on
Speaker 5: this page. So I left a message, thinking, no one's
Speaker 5: ever going to answer. It's just I'll get nowhere. But
Speaker 5: that's okay. I'm just sort of curious about it, and
Speaker 5: I left a message asking has anyone any memory of
Speaker 5: my grandfather Morris, who was born in New York City
Speaker 5: and the turn of the century. Gave very little information,
Speaker 5: and you know, and that was it. And within within
Speaker 5: about seven days I got out a message, and that
Speaker 5: really surprised me. And I got a message from someone
Speaker 5: named Karen Gardner, and she said that in her message
Speaker 5: replied to me on this long thread, I was just
Speaker 5: searching for my own family, and when I saw yours,
Speaker 5: I almost fell out of my chair, you know. There
Speaker 5: she said they were we had the same grandfather on
Speaker 5: my father's side, which was certainly plausible because my father's
Speaker 5: father had two marriages and there were two older daughters
Speaker 5: that came before my father and his brother. He had
Speaker 5: been widowed apparently and remarried. Had my father and his
Speaker 5: brother larry within nine months of each other, to a
Speaker 5: much younger woman in her twenties. Her name was Violet,
Speaker 5: and after she had them, she left, she just split.
Speaker 5: So that sort of began, like all sorts of terrible
Speaker 5: emotional disasters with people, as we know, this happened. So
Speaker 5: I got this reply from this woman, so her comments
Speaker 5: seemed plausible, like, yeah, this is plausible this certainly could
Speaker 5: be distant cousins because there was extended family there. So
Speaker 5: we started corresponding with each other and it was kind
Speaker 5: of exhilarating and kind of pleasant. I was curious, I
Speaker 5: was cautious, but more I think I was letting it
Speaker 5: all kind of get the better of me, like just
Speaker 5: truly giving myself over to messages from someone that I
Speaker 5: didn't know, that who seemed to be giving me information
Speaker 5: that they we were on the same family family tree
Speaker 5: line somewhere. But I thought, okay, you know this is nice.
Speaker 5: From a distance, Karen. It seemed to be very middle class,
Speaker 5: upper middle class, married, two children, lived in a house,
Speaker 5: and they all seemed very suburban and very distant and
Speaker 5: separate from what my life was like. I wasn't really
Speaker 5: sure if we would get along or She sent me
Speaker 5: a family photo with all family there, brothers, sister's children,
Speaker 5: the seven or seven people in this picture with some children,
Speaker 5: and they were very conservative and very well dressed, and
Speaker 5: the formal portrait of family portrait, and I thought, gee,
Speaker 5: this is this is interesting. This is nothing that really
Speaker 5: I would ever do, but you know, people do this,
Speaker 5: and it was very believable. So now I had faces
Speaker 5: to go with the names. You know. Now, it was
Speaker 5: sort of picking out who who Karen was and who
Speaker 5: her husband was, and pictures of her little children there
Speaker 5: and then her sister. So it was all building and solidifying,
Speaker 5: and we exchanged photos, we exchanged family stories, and then
Speaker 5: she said, you know, she talked about her brother and sister.
Speaker 5: Karen had a sister named Sharon and a brother named Leonard.
Speaker 5: Sharon lived in Massachusetts along with Karen. Leonard lived in
Speaker 5: New Jersey. And she thought, well, she hadn't told anyone
Speaker 5: about me yet. She was kind of saving it. Maybe
Speaker 5: she felt she shouldn't be doing this, or maybe she
Speaker 5: would get in trouble with her family for sharing their
Speaker 5: story with me. But she kind of kept it to
Speaker 5: herself for a while and then eventually told her brother
Speaker 5: and sister about me. And this is all correspondens through email.
Speaker 5: And I like writing letters. I've always liked writing letters.
Speaker 5: I've had pen pals in the past where we would
Speaker 5: write physical letters to each other back in the old days,
Speaker 5: and you would wait six days to get a letter
Speaker 5: and then you'd write back. And I mean, there's something
Speaker 5: really wonderful about that art. And I really enjoyed doing that,
Speaker 5: and there's something nice about not having them right there.
Speaker 5: The letter writing and in the learning was really the
Speaker 5: most exciting thing for me. Meeting people is a whole
Speaker 5: other thing. So I was sort of intrigued by Leonard
Speaker 5: because he was closer by, and if he were working
Speaker 5: in Manhattan, it would be really easy for us to
Speaker 5: go have a coffee downtown. I would be willing to
Speaker 5: do that. And I think that was the time when
Speaker 5: in the Internet, when people were sort of beginning to
Speaker 5: meet each other through all sorts of sites. It's just
Speaker 5: a normal human experience. Yeah, you have to be cautious,
Speaker 5: of course, but they all seemed very down to earth, normal,
Speaker 5: very normal. My family, by contrast, was kind of almost wild.
Speaker 5: You know, the artists, you know, the suicide, you know,
Speaker 5: the instability, all that stuff. My life was certainly never perfect.
Speaker 5: So I was kind of excited about meeting Leonard and
Speaker 5: getting to know Leonard a little bit. And we were
Speaker 5: supposed to meet and he was supposed to write me
Speaker 5: back at one point, and then then he just stopped
Speaker 5: writing back to me, and I was I was kind
Speaker 5: of hurt, you know. I remember I was belief is
Speaker 5: a fluid thing. I was completely unbeliefed. All of this
Speaker 5: was completely legitimate, and I was kind of sad that
Speaker 5: Leonard wasn't writing back to me, and Karen was kind
Speaker 5: of making excuses a little bit, but she told me,
Speaker 5: you know, if you do meet him, he might cry.
Speaker 5: He's a little emotional and he can be a little mysterious.
Speaker 5: So I thought, I'm a little mysterious. What does that mean?
Speaker 5: You know this wasn't really sure what that meant. So
Speaker 5: we get further into our correspondence, we're writing about the holidays.
Speaker 5: What are you doing for Thanksgiving? Or then there was
Speaker 5: sort of a little bit of talk about me going
Speaker 5: up to Massachusetts to meet with them, and though that
Speaker 5: sounds nice on its face, I really didn't want to
Speaker 5: go to massa Chusetts to meet anybody. Though I was
Speaker 5: sort of curious about all this. I do have somewhat
Speaker 5: reclusive qualities, like my father had a little bit of
Speaker 5: a hermit sometimes. I was tending to stay to myself
Speaker 5: a lot. So the thought of traveling up there and
Speaker 5: meeting them and dealing with all those expectations and who
Speaker 5: knows what they would even think about me. I didn't
Speaker 5: really see myself as the most conventional person in the world.
Speaker 5: So we're getting further into this, and then suddenly Sharon,
Speaker 5: the sister in this trio of siblings, decides that I'm
Speaker 5: just a scam artist. And then I'm just looking to
Speaker 5: infiltrate the family to do what I don't know. I
Speaker 5: couldn't even imagine take their money. I don't even know
Speaker 5: how it's possible. But she started going off on me
Speaker 5: to her sister, and this got sent to me in
Speaker 5: a carryover of an email exchange that she was having
Speaker 5: with her sister. I wasn't really intend intended to see it,
Speaker 5: but when I got this email from the strange email
Speaker 5: from cam and I scrolled down a ways to see
Speaker 5: what was going on, and like, Sharon was going really ballistic.
Speaker 5: Who is this person? You don't know her, Why are
Speaker 5: you telling our family about telling her about our family?
Speaker 5: Why are you doing this? She's nothing but you know, dirt,
Speaker 5: and you should not be associating with her and everything.
Speaker 5: And I was really shocked, saddened, and I couldn't imagine
Speaker 5: what I was doing or saying that would give anyone
Speaker 5: this impression at all. I mean, it was never any
Speaker 5: talk of money or anything. It was just holidays? How
Speaker 5: are you? I would you do? I made a pie
Speaker 5: this weekend, you know that kind of thing. And so
Speaker 5: I wrote back to thinking I was all full of
Speaker 5: pepper and beans. You know. I was just going to
Speaker 5: write back to to Sharon and tell her off, like
Speaker 5: how dare you? And I did, how dare you say
Speaker 5: this about me? It was really insulted. It was really hurt.
Speaker 5: It hurt me. I felt bad. Why would you say
Speaker 5: anything like this about me? It was so untrue, just
Speaker 5: when I was kind of enjoying the whole thing. So
Speaker 5: that caused a big, big cloud to form over everything.
Speaker 5: Leonard stopped writing to me, and Sharon just kind of
Speaker 5: disappeared off the radar, back to whatever she was doing.
Speaker 5: And Karen would continue to write to me once in
Speaker 5: a while, and she said to me once, isn't Leonard
Speaker 5: writing to you? And I said, no, Leonard is not
Speaker 5: writing to me at all. He's not interested in meeting
Speaker 5: with me. And she says, well, I guess Sharon must
Speaker 5: have gotten to him by now, and I thought, well,
Speaker 5: what do you mean, gotten to him? And it seemed
Speaker 5: that Sharon was poisoning Leonard against me, telling him all
Speaker 5: sorts of things about me that weren't true and that
Speaker 5: would scare anyone off. So everything just kind of stopped
Speaker 5: and died away. Now meanwhile, I'm excited about this, and
Speaker 5: I'm telling friends about this at work. Hey, I met
Speaker 5: family online and it's so interesting. And this is kind
Speaker 5: of cool because I was used to losing people, you know.
Speaker 5: I mean I didn't talk about this before, but my
Speaker 5: father died of lung cancer in two thousand and one.
Speaker 5: My father was gone, his brother died before that, my
Speaker 5: sister was gone. I didn't have a lot of family,
Speaker 5: so I was lose to losing people. But now suddenly
Speaker 5: I was gaining people, and that was a different feeling,
Speaker 5: and I was excited about it, and I was telling
Speaker 5: people about it, and then suddenly it all just kind
Speaker 5: of fell apart. But I was also sharing all of
Speaker 5: this with Bobby, who was really interested in all of this.
Speaker 5: Oh what are you going to tell the next or
Speaker 5: what do they say? Or let me see what they
Speaker 5: look like. So it became like I wouldn't say it,
Speaker 5: like became like a soap opera right away, but it
Speaker 5: was definitely, you know, like real stuff that was happening,
Speaker 5: stuff that was worth talking about. And we we talked
Speaker 5: about it a lot.
Speaker 3: So who was told next us? Tell us who Nolan
Speaker 3: is in this story.
Speaker 5: Nolan was my boyfriend at the time, and he was
Speaker 5: still we're we're not really friends anymore, but he's you know,
Speaker 5: we're we're at peace with each other. We're not together anymore, obviously,
Speaker 5: But he was a younger man that I had met
Speaker 5: prior to this. Then we were dating, and I had
Speaker 5: not been in a relationship in a while. I was
Speaker 5: in some rather abusive relationships leading up to that and
Speaker 5: was really getting worn out from that, making bad decisions
Speaker 5: once again myself. I mean, but Nolan was a really sweet,
Speaker 5: easy young guy who was a New Yorker like me.
Speaker 5: It was really easy going. We'd hang out, we'd have hamburgers.
Speaker 5: He was a really good company, and I really enjoyed
Speaker 5: having someone who was easy to be with. I was
Speaker 5: not used to having someone who was easy to be with,
Speaker 5: so I was I felt safe, I felt comfortable. Well,
Speaker 5: it was uh wasn't heavy, and we we were We
Speaker 5: enjoyed it. We enjoyed each other as people. We really did.
Speaker 5: He was he was a nice kid, and he was
Speaker 5: not I mean. I was sort of telling him about
Speaker 5: this the time, but he wasn't really all that interested.
Speaker 5: I mean, I mean, nobody could really make that big
Speaker 5: of a deal out of it, really, cause it wasn't
Speaker 5: at first, it wasn't a big deal at all now
Speaker 5: and then suddenly it took a very dark turn. Bobby,
Speaker 5: of course, I kept abreast of all of the things
Speaker 5: that were happening. And Bobby and I were always online
Speaker 5: chit chatting on AOL Messenger, which goes back to you know,
Speaker 5: pre social media, like AOL Messenger, instant message, uh. And
Speaker 5: we would be chatting online and you can add people
Speaker 5: to your friend list or your buddy list and then
Speaker 5: you could chat with them. It was just the progenitor
Speaker 5: for all of the things that are online today. And
Speaker 5: I he started getting strange messages. I started getting a
Speaker 5: lot of pornography suddenly out of nowhere, really triple X,
Speaker 5: quadruple X, super dirty, super freaky crazy porn all the time,
Speaker 5: All day long, I was I was being subscribed to
Speaker 5: all sorts of strange list serves and everything under the sun,
Speaker 5: you know, I mean, you've heard of a lot of things,
Speaker 5: but then there's things you've never heard of, and you're like, wow, man,
Speaker 5: this is really crazy. This stuff really exists, but someone
Speaker 5: was out there adding me to list and sending me
Speaker 5: porn and I couldn't figure out what it is. And
Speaker 5: and Bobby and I would be chatting online talking about
Speaker 5: all of this, and I had previously gotten Leonard's instant
Speaker 5: message account, so he was part of my buddy list
Speaker 5: of Aol Messenger, and I would though he wasn't communicating
Speaker 5: with me anymore, I would see him kind of pop
Speaker 5: on and off like I would be on chatting with Bobby,
Speaker 5: and Leonard would just suddenly peer like you would see
Speaker 5: someone come on. A little door would open, a little
Speaker 5: icon would pop out like they're in, like they were here,
Speaker 5: and even sometimes there was a sound of like a
Speaker 5: door closing, and you could customize these things to make
Speaker 5: all the sounds you want. I mean, it was, you know,
Speaker 5: it was like a little gang like all this stuff is.
Speaker 5: So we would watch Leonard pop on and off, and
Speaker 5: anytime he would pop on in Messenger, all of this
Speaker 5: porn would start flooding into my inbox, like really dirty,
Speaker 5: dirty stuff. And then at one point Leonard wrote to
Speaker 5: me directly and said, I can make you moan, you know,
Speaker 5: something like that, And it was really arresting and really awful.
Speaker 5: And it turned out that it was Leonard adding me
Speaker 5: to all of these porn sites and spanning me and
Speaker 5: sending me all this stuff and just harassing me. So
Speaker 5: I finally I didn't want to tell Karen about it,
Speaker 5: but I finally had to. I wrote to Karen, Look,
Speaker 5: I don't want to cause any problems with you and
Speaker 5: your family, but I have reason to believe that Leonard
Speaker 5: is behind all of these terrible things are happening to
Speaker 5: my email, and I just really wish it would stop. Well,
Speaker 5: a few days after that, I heard back from Karen,
Speaker 5: and she was horrified, and she said apologized over and over,
Speaker 5: and she said that I'm sorry I never told you,
Speaker 5: but Leonard has a lot of problems. You know, Leonard
Speaker 5: has been diagnosed with mental illness since she was a
Speaker 5: really young boy. And though he is a Wall Street
Speaker 5: whiz and a math prodigy, he has severe psychiatric history.
Speaker 5: And she laid out in a letter to me that
Speaker 5: I will never forget, and it really described all of
Speaker 5: Leonard's not only his psychiatric history, which was troubling and
Speaker 5: upsetting and disturbing. And not to say that people who
Speaker 5: are mentally ill are prone towards bad you know, bad
Speaker 5: crime or evil or harm.
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Speaker 5: That he had a criminal past and that he had
Speaker 5: been implicated and tried for a rape and kidnapping of
Speaker 5: a young girl, but he was acquitted for some reason,
Speaker 5: but the other two that were involved were both sent
Speaker 5: to prison. And this just completely shocked me and blew
Speaker 5: my mind completely. I thought, this is monstrous. I mean,
Speaker 5: it's one thing to have mental illness. I mean, I
Speaker 5: can certainly understand that I have mental illness in my
Speaker 5: own family, and it's nothing to be truly ashamed of.
Speaker 5: But nobody in my family had criminal histories or heard
Speaker 5: anyone or did anything like that. But Leonard's history was
Speaker 5: really shocking and really troubling. And she had mentioned the
Speaker 5: names of the other two offenders that were involved in
Speaker 5: this crime, and it was like a bomb go going
Speaker 5: off in my face. So, of course, like everything that
Speaker 5: was happening in this saga, I would immediately show it
Speaker 5: to Bobby. Oh my god, look at this. Tell me
Speaker 5: what you think. I'm too scared to even read it.
Speaker 5: It's just too upsetting. And I would often do that.
Speaker 5: As things got worse and worse, I would be so
Speaker 5: afraid and so rattled. I would just send things to him,
Speaker 5: like here, you read this for me, and then you
Speaker 5: give me the cliff notes, because I can't handle all
Speaker 5: of this. I mean, it really got to the point
Speaker 5: as it got deeper and deeper and deeper, I just
Speaker 5: couldn't handle anything anymore. So, like I did to Bobby,
Speaker 5: we started googling, and we started searching around, and we
Speaker 5: did find the names of these two offenders in New Jersey,
Speaker 5: and they were indeed registered sex offenders, with pages on
Speaker 5: the New Jersey Police Department describing their crimes, describing the
Speaker 5: dates they were incarcerated, the dates they were released. But
Speaker 5: these are frightening, frightening character their pictures. I don't know
Speaker 5: it was more frightening their rap sheets or their photos,
Speaker 5: but together all at once, and the two of them
Speaker 5: and only a few miles away in New Jersey, was
Speaker 5: just too overwhelming for me. So that's where it all
Speaker 5: began to go into that dark spiral.
Speaker 3: You also write that Karen tells you of her former sister, Sondra,
Speaker 3: a baby sister died in the fire, and there was
Speaker 3: some speculation that it might have been started by Leonard
Speaker 3: at that time. And she also talks about at twelve
Speaker 3: years old, he was caught peeping next door and the
Speaker 3: father found him. Tell us a little bit about that,
Speaker 3: and if you weren't worried enough by the information you had,
Speaker 3: tell us what you thought after you've got that information.
Speaker 5: Well, the letter, as you said, was long and epic.
Speaker 5: Leonard had a history going back to childhood. He would
Speaker 5: he started peeping into neighbors windows. The father of the
Speaker 5: girl whose window he was looking in one night saw
Speaker 5: him doing this, and Leonard attacked him with a shovel
Speaker 5: and hit him with a shovel. So you know, I'd
Speaker 5: certainly read enough true crime books to understand that this
Speaker 5: looks like a terrible, classic pattern of something getting worse
Speaker 5: and worse. He was also prone to stealing laundry off
Speaker 5: of neighbors clothing lines, and wearing women's clothing. He also
Speaker 5: was prone to peeping in windows. And what was the
Speaker 5: other thing he said, I'm sort of losing track. He
Speaker 5: he he was sent away. He was sent away to Greystone.
Speaker 5: Actually he had been incarcerated or hospitalized a few times.
Speaker 5: But what went back to the original genesis of all
Speaker 5: of this was there was another child in the family
Speaker 5: and her name was Sondra, and she was like the
Speaker 5: apple of everyone's eye. And one day, while the child
Speaker 5: was sleeping and the mother wasn't paying attention, the room
Speaker 5: or the part of the house that they were in
Speaker 5: had mysteriously set on fire, and the child was killed,
Speaker 5: and it sent the mother into a terrible depression and
Speaker 5: she would carry around a doll with her all the time.
Speaker 5: This is what Karen was telling me. Her mother was
Speaker 5: carrying a doll in her terrible state of grief to
Speaker 5: somehow food what happened. And there was some thought in
Speaker 5: the family that Leonard may have started the fire himself.
Speaker 5: They never offered actual proof, but you know a family
Speaker 5: says something, it's because they're kind of operating on instinct,
Speaker 5: like something's wrong here. You know, something was very wrong
Speaker 5: with all of this. So that's what sort of started
Speaker 5: the domino effect of the pat that Leonard was on,
Speaker 5: which wasn't good.
Speaker 3: To add to your anxiety. Bobby is being a friend
Speaker 3: and helps you to look online. He's quite handy, you say,
Speaker 3: he's quite skilled, and he also you guys contemplate things
Speaker 3: like that, maybe Leonard had been in contact with this
Speaker 3: lou Ber and this Robert maccattry tell us how this
Speaker 3: correspondence advances and some of the kinds of messages that
Speaker 3: you receive and from who or it's so it seems.
Speaker 5: I had reported after Leonard sent me a bunch of
Speaker 5: real bad emails. I reported him too, aol, which sort
Speaker 5: of tipped off his family. Karen, his sister, when she
Speaker 5: wrote back to me explaining this all to me, also
Speaker 5: said that you know, Leonard was very fragile and that
Speaker 5: the report of his harassment to me had him ended
Speaker 5: up sent back to Greystone Psychiatric Facility where he will
Speaker 5: be dealt with and where he had been before. So
Speaker 5: I'm in the middle of this thinking what did I do?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 5: I just stepped into this family, and now suddenly they're
Speaker 5: all kind of, you know, self immolating in a way. Right.
Speaker 5: Leonard's acting nuts, her sister just hates me for no reason.
Speaker 5: And Karen's always in the middle, like running interference, trying
Speaker 5: to just put out little fires everywhere and take care
Speaker 5: of everyone and explain everything away and try to smooth
Speaker 5: everything out, and very belatedly giving me vital information that
Speaker 5: about him that I wished I had known the for
Speaker 5: so I. After looking at these offender profiles and looking
Speaker 5: at everything, it was really becoming clear to me that
Speaker 5: this was just a very bad situation. And now suddenly
Speaker 5: they all know me, they know where I live. I
Speaker 5: only know certain things about them, but I seemed like
Speaker 5: I had given away so much of myself, what I do,
Speaker 5: where I live, that suddenly I was on their radar
Speaker 5: and I wasn't going away because I had impacted them
Speaker 5: in such a way. Now, Leonard going back into Greystone
Speaker 5: sent the other sister off into a complete breakdown, and
Speaker 5: she was on a war path basically for my head.
Speaker 5: So that had sort of gone on for a while.
Speaker 5: Finding out about these offenders was just devastating. The last
Speaker 5: thing I needed was someone just like a hop skip
Speaker 5: over the Hudson River and I would be toast, you know.
Speaker 5: I mean, these were sex offenders, and it was just
Speaker 5: too terrifying to even believe that this was happening. At
Speaker 5: a certain point, Leonard was in Graystone sort of bouncing
Speaker 5: off the walls and still commiserating over his you know,
Speaker 5: his lost little cousin me. He had sort of become
Speaker 5: his sexual obsession with me had turned into you know,
Speaker 5: a maybe a possible real affection for me tinged with
Speaker 5: all sorts of other troubling elements too. None of this
Speaker 5: was ever like completely sweet and easy. Karen was always
Speaker 5: sort of explained to me that I should just smile
Speaker 5: and be friendly when Leonard gets out. Should he just
Speaker 5: show up at my door unexpected as he's been known
Speaker 5: to do, just show up on people. So here I
Speaker 5: was thinking, all right, this guy may get let out
Speaker 5: soon and he could just pop at my door on
Speaker 5: an ounced You know what am I gonna do if
Speaker 5: that happens. So Leonard starts painting a painting of me
Speaker 5: in this psychiatric facility. He's painting a painting. It's not
Speaker 5: really supposed to No one wants to really tell me
Speaker 5: it's me, but I have a feeling it's me, and
Speaker 5: he wants to give me this painting when he gets out,
Speaker 5: and I don't know what to do. You know, part
Speaker 5: of me wants to run and hide. The other part
Speaker 5: is just too scared to fight, and another part, which
Speaker 5: is part of my nature too, which is just I
Speaker 5: just want to straighten this out. I just want to
Speaker 5: calm everybody down and straighten it out, because it was
Speaker 5: I could not look away. Was I just could not
Speaker 5: just look away because I was afraid of what was
Speaker 5: gonna happen next. He stort of, keep your enemies close.
Speaker 5: You know, you keep your friends close, but you keep
Speaker 5: your enemies closer. I felt I had to kind of
Speaker 5: keep my eye on them because I did not want
Speaker 5: to get sandbagged in the middle of you know, in
Speaker 5: the middle of out of the Blue. So Leonard gets
Speaker 5: into a bunch of fights with a sister. I mean,
Speaker 5: the drama in this is so thick and so deep
Speaker 5: that you would have to have like sixteen professional soap
Speaker 5: opera writers to move this story forward. So just to
Speaker 5: jump ahead just a little bit for you know, your
Speaker 5: listener's sake, Leonard is out of Graystone and he is
Speaker 5: now back in his element. He's back in his realm.
Speaker 5: He turns out that he is also a sort of
Speaker 5: an expert in the bdsm arts. You know, he's really
Speaker 5: submerged in the S and M world, in the fetish world,
Speaker 5: and like stress up in you know, trends. Mode goes
Speaker 5: back and forth, and he's apparently still in touch with
Speaker 5: his two former cohorts, mccawtree and Burr. Now Leonard is
Speaker 5: about to throw the biggest kink party of all parties
Speaker 5: in the Western Hemisphere, and he somehow tells mccawtree about me.
Speaker 5: And now this guy, this registered sex offender, now has
Speaker 5: my email address. He's seen pictures of me, he knows
Speaker 5: where I live. He's seen Leonard's little cousin and he
Speaker 5: thinks she's cute. And I get an email from him,
Speaker 5: you know, sort of like, hey, pretty little lady, you
Speaker 5: know your cousin's told me lots about you. You know,
Speaker 5: how would you, you know, like me to, you know, come
Speaker 5: and pick you up some time and we can go
Speaker 5: out together. So I'm just like blown away. I'm getting
Speaker 5: emails now from real criminals, right, I mean, Leonard was
Speaker 5: acquitted for his crime, and Haron kind of smooths all
Speaker 5: that out, making it seem like it was not that
Speaker 5: big of a deal. He was in the wrong place
Speaker 5: in the wrong time, though I know I didn't really
Speaker 5: believe her completely. You know, some people do the crime
Speaker 5: but don't do the time. These guys who had done
Speaker 5: the time, now one of them at least has his
Speaker 5: eyes on me. That is just just horrifying, horrifying, beyondbelieved.
Speaker 5: So I'm in the midst of trying to put out
Speaker 5: all these fires now too. Write what Karen had been
Speaker 5: doing probably all her life. Now I'm doing too, keeping
Speaker 5: one person at day soothing the other, trying to run
Speaker 5: my own life. I mean, I had a busy life.
Speaker 5: I'm working, I'm self supporting, I have a very busy job,
Speaker 5: and I'm preoccupied by this, this dark, dark saga that
Speaker 5: was just overtaking me, and it was just overtaking my
Speaker 5: everyday life.
Speaker 3: Pretty much, tell us about someone that you believe is
Speaker 3: a is there to help Karen's husband, Hell, tell us
Speaker 3: what he has to say to you.
Speaker 4: Hell.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Hell was a breath of fresh air. You know. He
Speaker 5: was part of the family, but though just part of
Speaker 5: the family by marriage, he was able to have a
Speaker 5: more objective look at things and often a more realistic
Speaker 5: look at everyone in the picture. Right. That's usually what
Speaker 5: happens in marriages. You know, you marry into this crazy
Speaker 5: family and you've got to deal with them. Hel was
Speaker 5: a pre straight laced guy, you know, married businessman, wife,
Speaker 5: very troubling family life with his wife's family. How was
Speaker 5: often in communication with me, and he felt, I guess
Speaker 5: some obligation just because he's human to sort of warn
Speaker 5: me about things, protect me a little bit as much
Speaker 5: as he possibly could, because this is apparently an old
Speaker 5: story for him. Leonard in and out of either jail
Speaker 5: or either out of Graystone or wandering around or off
Speaker 5: his medicaid or anything. I mean, Leonard was a handful.
Speaker 5: But Leonard also had a lot of really bad friends.
Speaker 5: It wasn't so much the one, but when you got one,
Speaker 5: you deal with the whole clan of his world. It
Speaker 5: was not pretty. So hal they kind of befriended me
Speaker 5: and would often be the you know, the good guy.
Speaker 5: You know, Oh, I told Leonard to leave you alone.
Speaker 5: I said you should stop bothering you. But I also,
Speaker 5: you know, want to warn you that Sharon Is doesn't
Speaker 5: have a good character. There was talk about her maybe
Speaker 5: you know, she was going to get remarried. Maybe there
Speaker 5: was some questions about what happened to her first husband.
Speaker 5: No one was completely sure, but she was about to
Speaker 5: get remarried again, and all of this turmoil and trouble
Speaker 5: in the family with Leonard and his sisters had short
Speaker 5: short circuited her plans to get married. The guy she
Speaker 5: was engaged to husband to be suddenly was getting cold
Speaker 5: feet looking at all of this, right, does he want
Speaker 5: to end up like how, you know, with a boulder
Speaker 5: load of you know, a boatload of incredible problems non
Speaker 5: stop for the rest of your life. So he actually
Speaker 5: backed out of the wedding that sent Sharon over the edge.
Speaker 5: So how was kind of like the rock, you know,
Speaker 5: he was like warning me against Sharon, giving me information,
Speaker 5: you know, taking care care of Karen, smoothing things out
Speaker 5: with Leonard, and then had you know, often had to
Speaker 5: take extra steps, you know, to like go that extra measure.
Speaker 5: As the events continued to unfold, at one point, House said, look,
Speaker 5: I really got a level with you. You know, Karen's
Speaker 5: told you only so much about Leonard. There's actually more.
Speaker 5: And apparently there was a murder of a young girl
Speaker 5: in New Jersey. She wasn't a young girl. She's a
Speaker 5: twenty two year old mother and she had a toddler child,
Speaker 5: and she was a single mother, and she was in
Speaker 5: New Jersey and it's a terrible, terrible violent crime and
Speaker 5: that Leonard may be linked to that because they had dated.
Speaker 5: Leonard had apparently crossed paths with her, was very excited
Speaker 5: about her, was talking to the family about this new
Speaker 5: woman he had met, and he thought she was wonderful
Speaker 5: and they were all very excited for him. And then
Speaker 5: suddenly he just stopped talking about her completely, and then
Speaker 5: she ended up murdered. Now I just thought at that
Speaker 5: point that I had heard all I can hear and
Speaker 5: seeing all I can see. At that point, I said,
Speaker 5: I've had enough. I'm changing my email accounts. I'm changing
Speaker 5: my I called up what was it, Verizon, I changed
Speaker 5: to some other carrier. I changed everything. I just locked up,
Speaker 5: shut it all out, and then said enough, I can't.
Speaker 5: It was just too much for me. The pictures of
Speaker 5: this young woman who was murdered, and she was about
Speaker 5: my height, you know, she's blonde, light hair, blue eyes,
Speaker 5: and there were similarities there that were just chilling, chilling,
Speaker 5: and I felt like I was somehow being ever ever,
Speaker 5: you know, pushed into this thing that seemed to have
Speaker 5: a momentum of its own and that was going to escalate,
Speaker 5: and it was just too it was just too terrifying.
Speaker 5: That was a wreck.
Speaker 3: Every day you took your this information to police, and
Speaker 3: this is not the we've glossed over with a couple
Speaker 3: of times that you've contacted authorities or tried to contact them.
Speaker 3: You talk about a Phonenburger, talk about the ninetieth Precinct
Speaker 3: and what they have to say about your concerns and
Speaker 3: this information their reaction.
Speaker 5: What I heard about the murder of Jennifer Whipkey. I
Speaker 5: I went to the police, and I wasn't even sure
Speaker 5: what to say, you know, what could I say? I
Speaker 5: went in, I sat down, saw an officer and God,
Speaker 5: how do you even begin? And I said, look, I'm
Speaker 5: getting strange emails. I'm getting very sexually obsessive, harassing emails
Speaker 5: from somebody. I remember, this is two thousand and four.
Speaker 5: This is not a time when people are really all
Speaker 5: that familiar with what's going on internet. There really weren't
Speaker 5: even any laws on the books to prevent anything from happening.
Speaker 5: You know, I think the laws have just are continuing
Speaker 5: to evolve with internet crime. So I got a police officer,
Speaker 5: and she was a female police officer, and I explained
Speaker 5: to her what was happening. And I printed out some
Speaker 5: of the photos that I was getting and some of
Speaker 5: the pictures I was being sent and explaining the whole thing,
Speaker 5: and she said she was very sympathetic, but she knew
Speaker 5: that her hands were tied. There was only so much
Speaker 5: that she could do, so I felt better that at
Speaker 5: least I made a report. And she said, look, I'm
Speaker 5: not really sure what we can do with this, but
Speaker 5: let me show these pictures to some of the officers
Speaker 5: at the precinct. So she said, wait right here, and
Speaker 5: she took my folder that I have of images I'd
Speaker 5: printed out, and showed it to a bunch of officers,
Speaker 5: all male officers in the precinct that were there. And
Speaker 5: she came back after a few moments, and it was
Speaker 5: all very embarrassing for me, very upsetting and embarrassing, and
Speaker 5: it was just a total violation of just my whole
Speaker 5: sensibility to even have to go and talk about this
Speaker 5: to police, and also feeling very helpless at the same time.
Speaker 5: And she said, look, though the pictures are crude and
Speaker 5: there's nothing really we can do, but I'll take the
Speaker 5: report anyway, and I gave her my information. But then
Speaker 5: I actually had made multiple trips back as as things
Speaker 5: just sort of progressed. I had been back and I
Speaker 5: met with another police officer. This time. They said I
Speaker 5: could talk to a detective, detective Fronenburger, and he was
Speaker 5: your hard boiled New York City detective. And he listened
Speaker 5: to my story with very straight face, very serious. But
Speaker 5: I could tell that, and you know, when I was
Speaker 5: talking about it, it all just seemed completely absurd. But I
Speaker 5: felt like I had no recourse, like it, I have
Speaker 5: to do something. I can't not report this to the
Speaker 5: police at this point. But he said, you know, look,
Speaker 5: we don't know you know people. You know, he was
Speaker 5: a little he was a lot wiser than me. He says,
Speaker 5: you know, sometimes people take this stuff up the Internet
Speaker 5: and it's you know, it's something that they find and
Speaker 5: you know, there's really nothing provable here, and there's there's
Speaker 5: really nothing I can do. So, you know, the second
Speaker 5: or third time, I went home from the police precinct
Speaker 5: just feeling hopeless more hopeless.
Speaker 3: Now, during the course of this, you remain connected with
Speaker 3: your friend Bobby, who was in a relationship with us
Speaker 3: with a man named James, and you give him all
Speaker 3: kinds of well all the details of everything that's going on.
Speaker 3: When tell us about your decision to go to the
Speaker 3: FBI and the conversation with Bobby about you going to
Speaker 3: the FBI, tell us about that initiative to contact them
Speaker 3: about this and why I.
Speaker 5: Had actually tried to talk to the FBI. After going
Speaker 5: to the police a few times, I figured, all right,
Speaker 5: let me just try the FBI, and once again I
Speaker 5: made the phone call. Kind of an answer. A human
Speaker 5: being actually answers the phone. They can imagine the calls
Speaker 5: they get all day long. And I explained to this
Speaker 5: person what my story was, and I could tell already.
Speaker 5: She was like, look, you need to go to the
Speaker 5: local police, and I said, well, I have, and they
Speaker 5: can't do anything. So that never went anywhere. I was
Speaker 5: feeling even more hopeless. Nolan, though, had had enough and
Speaker 5: he went and he made a phone call to the FBI.
Speaker 5: Now this was like a few months in. We're getting
Speaker 5: to like October two thousand and four, and this has
Speaker 5: been going on for months. Nolan had already been getting
Speaker 5: frightening a terrifying phone phone calls on his cell phone.
Speaker 5: No one would have known his cell phone number. I
Speaker 5: would never have given it to anyone, So it was
Speaker 5: really odd and really perplexing that they had it, and
Speaker 5: they were leaving terrifying, threatening messages for him and very
Speaker 5: upsetting and very very disturbing. So he had managed to
Speaker 5: get through to the FBI, and he talked about some
Speaker 5: of the stuff that was going on to them, you know,
Speaker 5: threats of kidnapping, threats of murder, threats of rape. There
Speaker 5: was some sort of cult that they were mentioning in
Speaker 5: all of these threatening emails about some cult of state,
Speaker 5: and it was the mention of the cult element in
Speaker 5: this that got their attention, and we actually got a
Speaker 5: meeting with the FBI because Nolan had persevered and so
Speaker 5: grateful that he did, so important.
Speaker 3: So you talk about sorry, you talk about you talk
Speaker 3: about Leonard and this alter ego and these again the
Speaker 3: BDSM expert, but there's we've glossed over this kink fest
Speaker 3: that was supposed to happen in this invitation that you
Speaker 3: had that you obviously declined. But it turns into something
Speaker 3: much more sinister than people that have fetishes. And this
Speaker 3: goes into the conversations we just had or you were
Speaker 3: mentioning about threats to Nolan and then threats to yourself
Speaker 3: as well. They become far more sinister than invitations to
Speaker 3: a sex party that you're clearly not interested in, doesn't it.
Speaker 5: Yes, there were a number of threats that came through
Speaker 5: that somehow while Lennard was whipping together the greatest kink
Speaker 5: party in the universe. He decided to tell all of
Speaker 5: his worldly friends, all his underworldly friends about me, and
Speaker 5: suddenly mine email was being passed around till about twenty
Speaker 5: people who are now emailing me and telling me, Oh,
Speaker 5: you know, there was a whole language and a whole
Speaker 5: way of being in this in the S and M world.
Speaker 5: There's a dominance, there's submission, there's many categories, there's many approaches,
Speaker 5: and there's all kinds of wild and crazy and sometimes
Speaker 5: disturbing things going on. And I was getting emails, really
Speaker 5: terrible emails from people about, you know, how would you
Speaker 5: like to be tortured this way? And how would you
Speaker 5: like to be tortured that way? And it sort of
Speaker 5: went on and on, and one of these characters sort
Speaker 5: of got it into her head that I was, you know,
Speaker 5: I was bad. I was sort of infilstrating I was
Speaker 5: going to get involved with her guy. They had a
Speaker 5: master enslave relationship. Of course, I had no interest in
Speaker 5: any of that, and ignoring them and rebuffing them never
Speaker 5: really seemed to make any difference. In addition to this,
Speaker 5: this kink party was a whole other thing called the
Speaker 5: false Laughter, and that's where it really started to take
Speaker 5: on some terrifying shades that there was talk amongst mccawtree
Speaker 5: and his other cohort Burr about getting involved in the
Speaker 5: kidnapping myself and Nolan and taking a substate and to
Speaker 5: do what with us Not sure, but there were so
Speaker 5: many threatening phone calls. So all of that is what
Speaker 5: really prompted us to go to the FBI. And once
Speaker 5: we got that meeting, I felt like, Okay, at least
Speaker 5: I have a chance. So of course, like everything else
Speaker 5: I told, I told Bobby about it, like wow. He
Speaker 5: was like, didn't really know what to say. He was like, really, wow,
Speaker 5: that's great. FBI, Well what are they gonna do? And
Speaker 5: they're not gonna believe you? And this is all too crazy,
Speaker 5: and boy, where do you know, where are they even
Speaker 5: going to begin? And so I I met with the
Speaker 5: FBI and we we I sat there with my piles
Speaker 5: of papers and my emails all printed out and everything,
Speaker 5: and this very kind special agent named Brandon Waller, who
Speaker 5: was very patient, very serious, took my whole account, very soberly,
Speaker 5: made notes as I opened my folder and showed him
Speaker 5: one thing after the other, each character in this story,
Speaker 5: all of the things that were going on, and his
Speaker 5: eyes were wide. I sat there for an hour telling
Speaker 5: him everything. So after that I felt, Okay, at least
Speaker 5: I have this. Anything happens to us, they will know everything,
Speaker 5: will be on file if we're found dead in a
Speaker 5: ditch somewhere, and we still have some places to start.
Speaker 5: So I had to write up. After the meeting with
Speaker 5: the FBI agent, he asked me to write up a
Speaker 5: synopsis of all of this. So that was where I
Speaker 5: had to really just sit down and sketch it all out.
Speaker 5: First first scene, what happens here, next person, next person?
Speaker 5: What led us here? Why is all this going on?
Speaker 5: So I had to spell all this out for the
Speaker 5: FBI agent and send it in to him. So of
Speaker 5: course I told Bobby about everything, because he was my
Speaker 5: main confidant through this whole story, like my wingman, you know,
Speaker 5: who's there for everything. He says, well, i'd like to
Speaker 5: see this outline that you're sending the FBI. And I thought,
Speaker 5: and I said, why, you know the whole story. I
Speaker 5: don't have to show this to you. Agent Waller had
Speaker 5: asked me to keep it confidential, so I'm always going
Speaker 5: by the letter. I'm not going to mess up my chance,
Speaker 5: my one and only chance, by doing the wrong thing
Speaker 5: and disobeying this this federal law enforcement officer. So I'm like, no,
Speaker 5: I'm just going to keep it to myself and I'm
Speaker 5: going to send it to him. And Bobby was really
Speaker 5: quite insensed about that, and I couldn't believe. Like, I
Speaker 5: know he was a busy body, and I know that
Speaker 5: this was just way too juicy for him to miss,
Speaker 5: Like he probably wanted to see everything that happened. Of
Speaker 5: course I would too as a friend, Like what did
Speaker 5: you say? But I didn't think it would have upset
Speaker 5: him that much that I didn't want to show it
Speaker 5: to him. And he was really quite indignant about it,
Speaker 5: and we argued about it, you know, he was like, well, look,
Speaker 5: after all we've been through, how could you not show
Speaker 5: me this letter? And I was like, well, I'm sorry.
Speaker 5: You know the whole story, and I promised that I
Speaker 5: wouldn't show it to anybody. So that's just the way
Speaker 5: it's going to be. And that was that, and then
Speaker 5: things went silent, a completely silent no emails, no warnings,
Speaker 5: no weird calls, no nothing. Everything just completely stopped. That
Speaker 5: was weird, Like it went from operatic levels to just
Speaker 5: flatline just within a day. It was really weird. And
Speaker 5: there's a lot of other going on. I mean, this
Speaker 5: is a very densely packed story. We're doing the cliff
Speaker 5: note version of it, so safe to say when you
Speaker 5: read the book, you're going to get every bit of
Speaker 5: nuance in what led me, every step of the way
Speaker 5: and all the turns of events. But everything went dead,
Speaker 5: like if you flip the switch right, the stage just
Speaker 5: goes dark. It's nothing that was very eerie adopted, but
Speaker 5: it was strange that it just stopped.
Speaker 3: M h tell us about this Detective Waller and also
Speaker 3: the idea that that they should look into this. Maccawtry,
Speaker 3: very very seriously tell us about that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Ajent Waller, if you were gonna cast a role
Speaker 5: for an FBI agent, Aja Waller would be straight out
Speaker 5: of Central Casting. He was very serious, no nonsense, really
Speaker 5: took you seriously. Was such a good, decent person. I
Speaker 5: always felt completely relaxed and really good with Agent Waller,
Speaker 5: and he seemed to take a real interest in this though.
Speaker 5: I mean, clearly this was a like a bizarre thing
Speaker 5: to talking about I mean there are points where it
Speaker 5: was like, I'm amazed at the FBI is even paying
Speaker 5: attention to this. I mean, they've got big fish to fry, right,
Speaker 5: They've got gangsters and corporate crime and terrorism and a
Speaker 5: lot of things going on. This is just this weird
Speaker 5: noir tale that just seemed to never die. So the
Speaker 5: fact that he was interested in at all was like
Speaker 5: really important to me. And I didn't want to burn
Speaker 5: that bridge for any reason. But he was diligent, and
Speaker 5: he started looking into like any law enforcement agent would,
Speaker 5: who's interested in getting to the bottom of this, Like
Speaker 5: who are these these these offenders? Right? Who are who
Speaker 5: is mccawtree and who is Burr? And he started looking
Speaker 5: into Burr. And then we got the news that actually
Speaker 5: mccawtrey had never left prison, right, was something I was
Speaker 5: not expecting because I had looked at his offender profiles
Speaker 5: in the New Jersey Police Department dot website, where he
Speaker 5: says they show in released, out, reincarcerated, when for what
Speaker 5: I mean, it's pretty detailed. It's like, there's no way
Speaker 5: he's out, How can they how can he how can
Speaker 5: he be in prison? If I don't know he's in prison?
Speaker 5: And how can he be in prison if he's emailing
Speaker 5: me about Kinkfest and how you know, suddenly this was
Speaker 5: another bombshell, Like wait a minute, If this one piece
Speaker 5: of the puzzle falls away, it doesn't everything else can't
Speaker 5: support because everybody was in this together. All their relationships
Speaker 5: were very clear, you know, through their correspondences through Sharon,
Speaker 5: through Hall, through Karen, through Leonard, and through various other
Speaker 5: members of this Kinkfest world that were communicating with me.
Speaker 5: They all knew each other and all of these events
Speaker 5: were revolving around all of their activity in this this cauldron.
Speaker 5: And so with one of the prisoners, one of the
Speaker 5: elements still in prison, this was completely it was just
Speaker 5: changed everything.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 5: It's like, wait a minute, this is just not even real.
Speaker 5: This is just weird. Now, this is almost even weirder. Right,
Speaker 5: it seemed acceptable that there were these people, but suddenly
Speaker 5: you have one of the key people is has never
Speaker 5: left prison. How could he be out and about doing
Speaker 5: things with Leonard going here, going there, doing this, writing
Speaker 5: to me, etcetera. So suddenly everything changed, like this was
Speaker 5: even weirder. What is really going on here? I still
Speaker 5: had no idea.
Speaker 3: There's more to this, and you talk about How being
Speaker 3: attacked and at least that's you here word that How
Speaker 3: was attacked in the intensive care unit and his sister
Speaker 3: Janice had been alerted and tell us a little bit
Speaker 3: about that. And also we haven't mentioned about this tribe
Speaker 3: of twelve what exactly these people purport to be all about.
Speaker 5: Well, actually it wasn't How. It was someone named Carl Mulgrave.
Speaker 3: Oh pardon me, says yes, Carl, Yeah, no.
Speaker 5: That's fine. There's a lot of characters in this story.
Speaker 5: Carl Mulgrave, Master Mulgrave as he liked to be called,
Speaker 5: or Lord Mulgrave in his you know, moniker is the
Speaker 5: way he liked to be talked to, was one of
Speaker 5: the kink Fest crew and he had been given my
Speaker 5: email and was corresponding with me and inviting me to
Speaker 5: all these kink parties and can I show up to
Speaker 5: drive you? And he's got this this girlfriend who is
Speaker 5: his you know, quote unquote slave. But things aren't too
Speaker 5: great with them. But he throughout all of this, I
Speaker 5: had I had contacted He contacted me, and I wrote
Speaker 5: back to him that I was not interested in any
Speaker 5: of this. You know though, Leonard is my cousin, we
Speaker 5: don't share this. I respectfully don't want to be involved
Speaker 5: in any of this. So I think that's sort of
Speaker 5: opened him up a little bit, and he started kind
Speaker 5: of treating me more like a person throughout this, and
Speaker 5: he wrote back, I'm really sorry. I didn't realize. Yeah,
Speaker 5: you know, Leonard Leona, as as Leonard liked to be
Speaker 5: sometimes he was either Leonard or Leona in whatever form
Speaker 5: he liked to be in. He's like, you know, Leona's cool,
Speaker 5: and if he's if you're his cousin, you're cool. And
Speaker 5: then he started sort of confiding in me a little
Speaker 5: bit more. And because he was kind of turning on
Speaker 5: everyone there, they didn't like it. His girlfriend, she had
Speaker 5: some very bad contacts as well, and he was sort
Speaker 5: of blowing the whistle on all of them with me,
Speaker 5: and he ended up being threatened and then ended up
Speaker 5: being grabbed off the street and given a hot shot
Speaker 5: as it was called, which is I can only imagine,
Speaker 5: you know, being sort of shanghaied, grabbed, hit with a needle,
Speaker 5: hit with some kind of crazy juice, knocked out, and
Speaker 5: kind of let to the street. So this was just
Speaker 5: one part, one more part of this tornado of activity
Speaker 5: that was going on since I started all of this,
Speaker 5: and now I've got someone hurt, someone injured, his girlfriend
Speaker 5: running a muck. She's out for me, Sharon's out for blood.
Speaker 5: I'm just dodging. I feel like I'm just dodging glass
Speaker 5: everywhere I go. It was really hard. I'm not really
Speaker 5: I mean the fear. I mean, it's hard to reconjure
Speaker 5: that fear that I was feeling. But it was just
Speaker 5: like being completely under siege by too many things going
Speaker 5: on at once. He started telling me more Carl about
Speaker 5: what was going on with mccawtree and Burr and the
Speaker 5: Tribe of Twelve, which was a cult Upstate that was
Speaker 5: started probably back in the nineteen forties the nineteen fifties
Speaker 5: by a former Carnival Barker. And as most cults do,
Speaker 5: they kind of go off and create their own little compound,
Speaker 5: their own little world, where the cult leader is, you know,
Speaker 5: the ruler of all, like a god, and they do
Speaker 5: bizarre things, and there were there was talk of some
Speaker 5: nefarious activity with this cult. Not only were they like
Speaker 5: had their their cult members kind of brainwashed, but they
Speaker 5: were also involved in some really bad stuff like kidnapping,
Speaker 5: you know, like murder. And that's how that's really what
Speaker 5: got the FBI's interest was the mention of the tribe
Speaker 5: of twelve upstate. And I felt like they were all
Speaker 5: involved in all of these things, Carl and his girlfriend
Speaker 5: and Leonard's friends, and it was all becoming like, you know,
Speaker 5: like a volcano like pressure building like something like I
Speaker 5: was irritant in this mix, and my just my mere
Speaker 5: presence was causing them all to kind of implode. So
Speaker 5: it was baffling. It was overwhelming.
Speaker 3: Now, you'd write that agent Waller contacts you one day
Speaker 3: and he says to you that there are no arrest
Speaker 3: records for Sharon or Leonard and no evidence that this
Speaker 3: seres Bork existed. And he said he hadn't spoken to
Speaker 3: macattrey yet, but we know that he had not been
Speaker 3: out of prison. And he said there was no reports
Speaker 3: of Carl being dead, right, So what do you think?
Speaker 3: What do you surmise after that? What is your only
Speaker 3: conclusion after that, after all of that conversations and everything
Speaker 3: that you assessed and poured over and rethought of, what
Speaker 3: did you think?
Speaker 5: There was a lot of time pouring over and thinking
Speaker 5: and discussing and analyzing, and Bobby and I drilled down
Speaker 5: on this day after day, what is happening, what really
Speaker 5: could be going on? What about this one? What about
Speaker 5: that one? I mean, it was very very, very very involved.
Speaker 5: Everyone had a very strong presence in this entire thing
Speaker 5: at that point finding out that there was. Sharon was
Speaker 5: never arrested, Leonard was never arrested, mccawtree had never left jail,
Speaker 5: mccawtrey had been released from prison. But it turned out
Speaker 5: that there are certain types of offenders that though they
Speaker 5: complete their prison sentences, they are deemed too dangerous to release,
Speaker 5: so they're put into something that is called civil confinement,
Speaker 5: where you've done your time, you've done your twenty seventeen
Speaker 5: whatever years, but they just cannot let you go. So
Speaker 5: I don't know how that works with our constitution, but
Speaker 5: they can keep you if you're deemed too dangerous to release.
Speaker 5: And mccartrey was deemed too dangerous to release, and he
Speaker 5: was being held in this facility in New Jersey. So
Speaker 5: with all of that, there was only one conclusion, and
Speaker 5: the conclusion was that all of this was fake, None
Speaker 5: of this was happening. But was for sure was that
Speaker 5: some thing someone some ones were behind this, and that
Speaker 5: became even more strange, like how could why who could
Speaker 5: be doing this? Who would even care about me? I'm
Speaker 5: no one famous, I'm just some New York publicists, living
Speaker 5: of life and not under anyone's watch or concern. Why
Speaker 5: would anyone care about me? Why would anyone hate me
Speaker 5: this much? Why would anyone bother? So it became more
Speaker 5: of like, first there's all these monsters and then there's none,
Speaker 5: But there has to be someone. There has to be
Speaker 5: someone doing this. Could not figure out who, who would
Speaker 5: be able to even find them. I didn't think we'd
Speaker 5: ever be able to find out who. I could not
Speaker 5: imagine anyone in my life who would do this to me.
Speaker 3: Talk about your boyfriend Nolan being harassed. You talk about
Speaker 3: people talking about you know, all the poems that were
Speaker 3: sent to you, all the phone calls, all the people
Speaker 3: that were harassed around you would look like. And then
Speaker 3: you talked to Bobby and he's having some problems with
Speaker 3: his computer. Tell us about what he says about his computer.
Speaker 5: Well, things were coming apart. Like I said, it seemed
Speaker 5: like a stage where all the actors had just vanished
Speaker 5: and you're left looking at what you really just don't
Speaker 5: even know, but it still won't let you go. Bobby started.
Speaker 5: He told me that his computer was sort of turning
Speaker 5: on at night and it was sending messages out that
Speaker 5: he did not write, like somehow something someone had hacked
Speaker 5: into his computer turned it on in the middle of
Speaker 5: the night and started using it as a you know,
Speaker 5: like a like a third party, just operating it from remote.
Speaker 5: And he said, well, I had to clear out my
Speaker 5: trojans and I had to delete all the stuff, and
Speaker 5: I reworked my whole operating system. And I'm thinking, that's weird.
Speaker 5: How could that happen? I don't really I didn't really
Speaker 5: know that you could turn on computers by remote. I
Speaker 5: really And this was like two thousand and four, two
Speaker 5: thousand and five. It really wasn't with technology, wasn't really there,
Speaker 5: but just sounded really strange, and it sounded really small
Speaker 5: compared to all the stuff that I was going through.
Speaker 5: I was like, Okay, sorry, you're having problem with your computer,
Speaker 5: but I have bigger problems right now to deal with.
Speaker 5: So it seemed like suddenly there's this sort of story
Speaker 5: emerging that I didn't even know why. But it was
Speaker 5: sort of like Okay. It was like, okay, whatever, Shore, alright,
Speaker 5: you're having problems with your computer. So do I welcome
Speaker 5: to the club?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Now Waller calls you. Detective Waller calls you and
Speaker 3: wants to set up a meeting and he says, we
Speaker 3: got a hit on a subpoena and he asked you,
Speaker 3: if you know anyone in DC, tell us who you say?
Speaker 3: No in DC?
Speaker 5: Right, there had been an assault on my server at
Speaker 5: my job at Rizzoli Publications. I was working for a
Speaker 5: publisher at the time, freelance, and I was getting emails
Speaker 5: sent to me, and multiple emails and e greetings were
Speaker 5: sent to all of my co workers, the president of
Speaker 5: the company, the accountant, the salespeople, the production people. I
Speaker 5: mean everyone in the publishing house was getting e greetings
Speaker 5: purportedly sent from me. So therefore I was getting the
Speaker 5: notifications that I was sending these things out. I mean,
Speaker 5: there was a Yahoo greeting at one time where you
Speaker 5: could type in any email in the world and there
Speaker 5: was nothing to confirm that it was really you the center.
Speaker 5: It just sent them out and you would say, it
Speaker 5: would say your greeting was sent, and you're like, I
Speaker 5: didn't send any greeting and it's like, oh, your greeting
Speaker 5: was picked up, Like I don't even know what the
Speaker 5: heck this is, but you're still getting it. You can,
Speaker 5: you could have. I'm sure they've changed it since then.
Speaker 5: But this went on for a few days, and it
Speaker 5: was this terrible attack at me at work, and that
Speaker 5: was the trip wire by which the FBI could obtain
Speaker 5: a subpoena to the email address from where these were coming,
Speaker 5: or one of the emails along the way, because there
Speaker 5: were so many, you know, where do I'm surprised that
Speaker 5: you even know where to start. But they sent a
Speaker 5: subpoena out, And of course I was telling Bobby all
Speaker 5: of this as it was happening. Oh, the FBI is
Speaker 5: sending out a subpoena, and that kind of got us
Speaker 5: tackled up a little bit. Was like, why what are
Speaker 5: you doing that for? I was like, well, what do
Speaker 5: you mean why? I want to know what. I want
Speaker 5: this to stop. This has to stop. I want to
Speaker 5: be left alone. I want this to end. So I
Speaker 5: came home from work. Adrian Waller was on the phone.
Speaker 5: He says, we got a hit on the subpoena and
Speaker 5: I was elated, But then I was also he said,
Speaker 5: you know, I had prior warned me like, look, just
Speaker 5: because we get a hit on this on this IP address,
Speaker 5: doesn't mean that we will pinpoint it. If this person
Speaker 5: is sending this from a computer in a college library,
Speaker 5: let's say we can't find the actual person, right, we
Speaker 5: can locate the computer, So don't get your hopes up.
Speaker 5: But when he called me and said that they had
Speaker 5: a hit, and I was like great, And he said
Speaker 5: do you know anyone in DC? And I said yeah,
Speaker 5: it wasn't surprising because I did. I know, I knew
Speaker 5: two people in DC, you know, particularly, but it was
Speaker 5: a big city. I mean, anything can happen, right, I mean,
Speaker 5: it was a big, wide open question. And he said, well,
Speaker 5: who do you know? And I said, I gave him
Speaker 5: Bobby's name and he goes, well, what's his address. It
Speaker 5: was like thinking, wait a minute, what do you mean
Speaker 5: what is his address? So I just gave him his address,
Speaker 5: Like why would he still be pursuing this? And he says, well,
Speaker 5: what what's his phone number? And what the and he
Speaker 5: went down list and he said, look, we have to
Speaker 5: come out. I'm gonna come out to Brooklyn. I'm gonna
Speaker 5: bring another agent with me and we're going to have
Speaker 5: a meeting. Well it was that was just the most shocking,
Speaker 5: incredible phone call that I'd had in this all of this,
Speaker 5: that that it was it was my friend, that it
Speaker 5: was Bobby. So I'm just devastated. I mean, I'm I'm
Speaker 5: just in shock, like true shock, because it was so
Speaker 5: much hitting me all at once, all of them, Where
Speaker 5: what ifs? Why?
Speaker 3: Who?
Speaker 1: When?
Speaker 5: This that these people this happened for months, police, FBI
Speaker 5: almost leaving the city, almost moving, I mean, running for
Speaker 5: my life, and and now I find out who it is.
Speaker 5: I mean, it was just I just couldn't believe it.
Speaker 5: I just could not believe it. Of course it was true,
Speaker 5: but it's too much to take in all at once.
Speaker 5: Agent Waller and another FBI agent came out, and I
Speaker 5: took them to this cafe on my corner that was
Speaker 5: always empty, and we sat in the back and they
Speaker 5: questioned me and we talked and I was shaking, and
Speaker 5: we went through everything and they were very sympathetic. I mean,
Speaker 5: if at first, you know, this other agent was looking
Speaker 5: at me like he really wanted information about the Whipke murder.
Speaker 5: The young woman who was murdered in New Jersey. That's
Speaker 5: why he was there. Because in the middle of talking
Speaker 5: to Agent Waller about while all of this was about
Speaker 5: and what do we do and what else do I know?
Speaker 5: I had this other FBI agent saying, well, what do
Speaker 5: you know about a truck driver in New Jersey? You know?
Speaker 5: And what do you know about this? I mean, clearly
Speaker 5: he was after something that I did not have. You know,
Speaker 5: they were that murder was not solved and they wanted
Speaker 5: to solve it. He was hitting me with these questions,
Speaker 5: looking at me kind of skeptically. But by the end
Speaker 5: of our meeting, this other agent has just been sat
Speaker 5: there just like almost with his mouth open, listening to
Speaker 5: the stories that I was telling about everything that I
Speaker 5: knew about Bobby. I knew Bobby was. You know, he
Speaker 5: was a busy body, he was a little nosy, he
Speaker 5: was a little bit of a pot stir But I
Speaker 5: would never think that he would do anything like that
Speaker 5: to me. So that was the beginning of what came next.
Speaker 5: What came next, well, I was brought down to the
Speaker 5: FBI headquarters and had a meeting with Agent Waller in
Speaker 5: his office, and I drew out a scheme of Bobby
Speaker 5: and his boyfriend's apartment in DC. Every door, every window,
Speaker 5: every drawer, every closet, every room. What was in this room,
Speaker 5: what was in that room? Where's the balcony, where's the elevator.
Speaker 5: I'm in everything by detail, if I knew it very well,
Speaker 5: because I've been down there many times over the course
Speaker 5: of the story, visiting, trying to get away from all this.
Speaker 5: So I really wasn't sure what was going to happen next.
Speaker 5: They weren't telling me anything. They were just talking to
Speaker 5: me about things. But they weren't saying we are going
Speaker 5: to do X, Y and C. They just because I'm
Speaker 5: sure they're worried about me tripping people off. But Agent
Speaker 5: Waller also said, look, I want you to continue to
Speaker 5: act normal with Bobby. Don't don't let on that, you know,
Speaker 5: just act normal. And that was not easy because I
Speaker 5: was just whatever compassion or humanity I had for him,
Speaker 5: it's just gone. I had no friendship left. I mean,
Speaker 5: what would he even say. I didn't even know what
Speaker 5: to say. I was afraid to talk to him to
Speaker 5: terrify me. But we had to still maintain communication with
Speaker 5: each other because we emailed all the time. What are
Speaker 5: you doing, how's your day, it's raining, it's sunny, how's work,
Speaker 5: blah blah blah. So he starts to sort of get
Speaker 5: the sense that I'm not really myself, even though I'm
Speaker 5: trying to act like myself. I'm not jovial, I'm not funny.
Speaker 5: Everything's like really short. And then he's like, is that
Speaker 5: thing I'll write with you? Because he knows me so well.
Speaker 5: I mean, he's been playing me like a violin, so
Speaker 5: of course he's going to see detect any subtle changes
Speaker 5: in my demeanor. And I was like, no, everything's fine.
Speaker 5: I got problems, I got taxes to worry about, I
Speaker 5: got job, this that, you know, all the normal stuff.
Speaker 5: I was just downplaying it. And I was like, I
Speaker 5: can't talk right now. I got to go. So it
Speaker 5: was a Friday, the thirteenth. I was on my way
Speaker 5: to work. I was a little bit late. And I
Speaker 5: get to work and I get to the reception desk
Speaker 5: and the receptionist is sitting there and she's looking at me,
Speaker 5: and she's like, you've been getting a lot of calls.
Speaker 5: Somebody's been calling you here over and over two hundred times,
Speaker 5: two hundred, three hundred times. And I said what, and
Speaker 5: she showed me a post it that was stuck to
Speaker 5: her phone with the number with DC number that was
Speaker 5: calling over and over again, so much so that the
Speaker 5: president of the company had to call him back and say,
Speaker 5: if you don't stop calling here, I'm going to contact
Speaker 5: my lawyer. I mean, it was just a barrage of
Speaker 5: rapid fire phone calls. So I get to my desk
Speaker 5: and my boss is actually on the phone with him,
Speaker 5: and she's trying to get him off the phone. Yep, no,
Speaker 5: she's not here right now. I's gonna take a message.
Speaker 5: I'm sorry she's not here, and I can feel the
Speaker 5: intensity of their struggle on the phone. He would not
Speaker 5: let this go. So she's looking at me like she
Speaker 5: got him off the phone. She was looking at me
Speaker 5: like what the heck is going on here? So I
Speaker 5: called Agent Waller immediately and he told me that they
Speaker 5: had been given granted by a judge a search and
Speaker 5: seizure warrant on the residence in DC, and that that morning,
Speaker 5: before dawn, a team of SWAT and FBI had bypassed
Speaker 5: the doorman in the lobby, gone straight up in the elevator.
Speaker 5: It's a very nice building in a very nice part
Speaker 5: of DC knocked on the door, and that was it,
Speaker 5: right separated. Bobby and his boyfriend searched the apartment, took
Speaker 5: his computer, took a lot of correspondent with serial killers,
Speaker 5: took laptops, took everything. It was sweeping, immediate, it was comprehensive.
Speaker 5: So after that happened, Bobby had just called my office
Speaker 5: like a thousand times, trying to get hold of me,
Speaker 5: and I was not answering, didn't want to answer. I
Speaker 5: want to just hide and run. I just it was
Speaker 5: all of it. It was just just way too much
Speaker 5: to deal with.
Speaker 3: We don't have enough time to go into too much more.
Speaker 3: But suffice to say that there was much more learned
Speaker 3: about your friend Bobby, wasn't there by investigators, And obviously
Speaker 3: you revealed that in this book as well.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, there's a lot of things about Bobby. But
Speaker 5: I think if we don't have enough time, I don't
Speaker 5: know if we can really delve into that. I think
Speaker 5: reading about it might be better for the audience. I
Speaker 5: don't want to. I don't know where to end this
Speaker 5: because I think, like it was writing a book, it's
Speaker 5: a real complicated, multi layered story. There's actually so much
Speaker 5: more going on in is that we haven't even talked about.
Speaker 5: Just for the you know, to compress it all into
Speaker 5: an hour. The book itself, I had to abridge it
Speaker 5: that I had to take about a third off. There
Speaker 5: were other subplots, there were extra things just thrown in
Speaker 5: for no reason. There were other characters, there were other people.
Speaker 5: There were more sagas within sagas within sagas. It was
Speaker 5: like a wild imagination an editor, a writer who had
Speaker 5: who just wanted to throw everything in and the kitchen
Speaker 5: sink just because they could, without rhyme or reason. I mean,
Speaker 5: the main plot moved along, but there was so much
Speaker 5: to it that just for the sake of the reader,
Speaker 5: we had to shorten the book a bit. But this
Speaker 5: is core of the full events in this strange and
Speaker 5: winding story.
Speaker 3: To sort of wrap up, I think, would you say
Speaker 3: that there was that there was another author at work
Speaker 3: here throughout this entire story, another author, well, that being
Speaker 3: Bobby himself.
Speaker 5: Right, the one author, Yeah, the one who planted the
Speaker 5: seed from the beginning, who became was born as Karen.
Speaker 5: And then within you know, within six days of my
Speaker 5: putting that genealogy message up, I got an answer, right,
Speaker 5: six days seven days, I forget, but it's a very
Speaker 5: short amount of time. So between that short amount of time,
Speaker 5: the genesis of this whole thing began, laying the foundations,
Speaker 5: bringing in characters, deepening their complexity, you know, puning their personalities,
Speaker 5: working on their writing styles. I mean this, when you
Speaker 5: really think about it, it was just an architectural kind of
Speaker 5: magnum magnum opus, right, any an imagination run completely wild,
Speaker 5: and really for what the sole purpose would commandeer another
Speaker 5: human beings life, right, take them by their most vulnerable
Speaker 5: beliefs and what they desire for family, maybe filling in
Speaker 5: those little holes in their lives, and then just elaborating
Speaker 5: on it and embroidering it and and marinating it and
Speaker 5: just creating this this this it's almost like an opera. Right.
Speaker 5: It was just so much. It's just mind boggling. You
Speaker 5: just couldn't believe that one person could not only be
Speaker 5: someone's friend, orchestrate this entire thing like a moving feast,
Speaker 5: and in real time that the most frightening part, right,
Speaker 5: the duality.
Speaker 3: And really too, it pushes the benchmarks for psychopathic for
Speaker 3: a psychopathic killer potentially, or the psychopath's intention to destroy psychologically,
Speaker 3: to play games, to outwit, to to instill incredible fear.
Speaker 3: Of course, the fear of the unknown is worse than
Speaker 3: any anticipated fear. It's incredible the effort that the psychopath
Speaker 3: put into this, and also the skill and the sheer
Speaker 3: glee this person must have had for quite a while
Speaker 3: enjoying it.
Speaker 5: I wonder what was the funniest part for him? What
Speaker 5: was the greatest part for him? I would off I
Speaker 5: still wonder what was the best part for him? Right?
Speaker 5: Which part? Which trip to the police? Which? How many
Speaker 5: times did I flee my house?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 5: It was very systematic, and it seemed to be a
Speaker 5: real systematic breaking down, a coercion of a human psyche.
Speaker 5: I'm manipulating them NonStop threats, intermittent reward for no reason,
Speaker 5: sort of ripping away their sense of privacy, ripping away
Speaker 5: their sense of peace over a sustained period of time.
Speaker 5: This really breaks down a person, it really does. I
Speaker 5: was spinning in all directions. I was making terrible decisions, desperate,
Speaker 5: not knowing how to handle it. I mean, it's worth
Speaker 5: saying I had tried to escape a few times. But
Speaker 5: there's a lot of a bit more in the story
Speaker 5: that you have to find out where he was always
Speaker 5: keeping up with me to find a way through serendipitousness
Speaker 5: or just a mistake or some accident or something would
Speaker 5: happen and it would start up all over again, because
Speaker 5: because the net was so wide and so bad and
Speaker 5: so complex, it was easy to catch things and to
Speaker 5: keep it going. It's like a spider and a fly.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I want to think, thank you Susan for coming
Speaker 3: on and talking about this very personal story and an incredible,
Speaker 3: credible true crime story. You have a very soft voice, Susan.
Speaker 3: A shocking true story of internet stalking. Susan Fenston. Tell
Speaker 3: us how we might be able to find this. I
Speaker 3: know this is a Wild Blue Press publication. Tell us
Speaker 3: how they might find. You have a very, very very
Speaker 3: soft voice, Susan.
Speaker 5: Well, the kindle is now available on Amazon, and the
Speaker 5: paperback is coming soon. I know it's going to the
Speaker 5: printer right about now, so I think in a few weeks,
Speaker 5: a couple of weeks, the paperbacks will be on Amazon.
Speaker 5: I'm sure you can go to Wild Blue website and
Speaker 5: order books or pretty much anywhere books are found. I
Speaker 5: don't have a website, but I'm on Facebook and I'm
Speaker 5: the only Susan Fenston, there is. Let's hope there are
Speaker 5: no others, no other's impersonating me. Occasionally I do check.
Speaker 5: I do once in a while, just to be sure,
Speaker 5: because you know, Facebook is full of all sorts of chicanery.
Speaker 5: But if anyone reads my book likes it, has any questions,
Speaker 5: I'll be happy to try to answer them. I'm just
Speaker 5: really grateful to have had the opportunity by Wild Blue
Speaker 5: to publish my story, a very unusual story that doesn't
Speaker 5: really seem to fit in many true crime categories, but
Speaker 5: encompasses something that's actually you know, cyberstalking is overtaking physical stocking.
Speaker 5: It's more common now than physical stalking. It's a changing world,
Speaker 5: and we were always trying to keep up with it.
Speaker 5: So I hope that people like my book. Hopefully we
Speaker 5: learn something from it, but certainly we'll be puzzled by
Speaker 5: it all. Thank you Dan very much for this.
Speaker 3: Thank you. It's been my pleasure, and I'm sure the
Speaker 3: audiences as well. Thank you very much, Susan Fenston for
Speaker 3: talking about You have a very soft voice, Susan, it
Speaker 3: has been an absolute pleasure. You have a great dada.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Thank you YouTube Dan, Bye bye, Thank you