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This is not a typical story of internet stalking. 32 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:54.599 It is an unusual case of friendship and deception so 33 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:58.680 pitiless and unyielding that it opened a door to hell 34 00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:03.400 into the author's life. This is an unforgettable story for 35 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:06.959 today's digital world, driven by social media and all of 36 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:12.520 its permutations and cruelest forms. A story begins with Susan 37 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:17.400 Fenstone's online search for her father's family asserts that soon 38 00:02:17.479 --> 00:02:20.800 turns into a two year, frightening odyssey of internet stalking 39 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:25.039 and threats when a posting on a genealogy message board 40 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:29.240 brings her into contact with what she thinks are distant cousins, 41 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:33.280 but what turns out to be a through email correspondence 42 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:37.680 with her new family, evidence of mental illness, dark family secrets, 43 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:42.199 a struggle over wealth, and bizarre criminal histories emerge. She 44 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:46.280 quickly becomes the focus of sexual obsession and suspicion, and 45 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:50.360 her life is completely turned upside down. She soon becomes 46 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:54.520 a target of dozens of frightening characters, including real, verifiable, 47 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:59.240 convicted sex offenders, in an elaborate cyber hoax that includes 48 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:05.840 threats of kidnap, apping, murder, rape, torture, and cannibalism. Remarkable 49 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:09.639 in its complexity, this story of Internet stalking is also 50 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:14.039 a sinister and shocking journal of madness, described by the 51 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:17.960 FBI as a case in a category by itself. This 52 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:21.199 book is a story about the Internet, the search for family, 53 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:24.639 a friendship, and a journey into the underbelly of American 54 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:29.120 crime that raises questions about safety online and pushes the 55 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:32.199 boundaries of our perceptions of what is real and what 56 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.800 is not. The book that we're featuring this sevening is 57 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:39.960 you have a very soft voice, Susan, A shocking true 58 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:45.120 story of Internet stalking with my special guest, publicist and author, 59 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:48.719 Susan Fensten. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 60 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:51.719 much for a green toi's interview. Susan Fensten. 61 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:55.039 Thank you, Dan, it's great to be here. 62 00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:59.960 Thank you very much. This is incredible. As I mentioned before, 63 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:04.120 among all the unique books that we have on the show, 64 00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:08.879 this is certainly one of the most unique. As we 65 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:11.520 talked about in the just before we got on air. 66 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:16.839 Tell us about the genesis of this book. You have 67 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:19.480 a very soft voice, Susan. Tell us a little bit 68 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:22.759 about what happened in the writing of this and what 69 00:04:22.920 --> 00:04:28.079 happened during that period of time and that decision. Tell 70 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:28.680 us about that. 71 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:33.920 Thank you for having me. I really appreciate your show, Dan. 72 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:39.879 I didn't intend to be an author. I never intended 73 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:46.040 to be a writer art and photography or my first loves. 74 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:50.120 The book was really a creative challenge as a end 75 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:54.319 as well as a way of piecing things back together, 76 00:04:55.639 --> 00:05:01.480 examining the events, and in very large part examining myself, 77 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:05.079 and that some of that was really difficult. Actually a 78 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:08.920 lot of it was difficult, So that was it just 79 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:13.480 a creative challenge. It's a very tough story. It's a 80 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:18.439 bit of a jungle with twists and turns and subplots. 81 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:22.959 It was difficult to write, but in doing so I 82 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:26.399 was able to understand what happened to me even better 83 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:29.639 because for a long time I really wasn't able to 84 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:32.360 understand what happened to me. It was just too complex, 85 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:35.079 too over my head, and I was just too close 86 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:41.319 to it. Of course, it's a lot of it takes 87 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:46.720 place online and in the writing of the book. I 88 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:51.959 started it about ten years ago and I wrote twenty 89 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:54.959 five chapters in about four months, and I was shopping 90 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:57.839 it around trying to get attention for it, admittedly taking 91 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:03.519 a big risk as an unknown with a wild story signing. 92 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:06.360 It frustrated and got turned down by a very big agent. 93 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:09.759 So I actually put the book away for three years 94 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:12.079 and I just didn't want to finish it. I didn't 95 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:13.560 want to deal with it. I had a lot going 96 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:15.879 on at work, I was very busy, and I just thought, oh, 97 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:19.279 I just don't want to deal with this anymore. And 98 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:22.480 that three years, something really amazing happened. It was the 99 00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:29.759 emergence of social media Facebook, Twitter, etc. I wasn't on 100 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:34.199 any of that, and what started to sort of I 101 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:37.160 realized after three years when I decided to finish the book, 102 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:40.439 was that the world had changed and any concern that 103 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:45.720 I had about strange happenings online and real real life 104 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:50.000 drama taking place on the internet were dispelled because the 105 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:53.560 world had really changed. The Internet had happened, and everything 106 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:57.040 was changed forever. So it was kind of an interesting 107 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:00.319 genesis of laying fallow and then returning to the crime, 108 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:03.879 the book of the Crime, and finishing it and deciding 109 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:07.319 just to publish it once and for all. 110 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:10.439 As you're writing in the book, you talk about your parents, 111 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:14.399 John and Nancy, and you talk about your father studying 112 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:17.600 at the Famous Actors Studio with Lee and Susan Strasbourg, 113 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:23.519 and his appearances on live television series in the late 114 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:26.920 fifties and the sixties. But tell us about your life 115 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:30.000 with your mother and your father and your sister Upper 116 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.720 West Side and then later the Lower east Side. Tell 117 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:36.920 us what life was really like and what shaped your 118 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:40.839 character in those days. 119 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:45.360 I was born in Manhattan on We were living on 120 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:48.240 Central Park West on one hundred between one hundred and 121 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:51.360 six and one hundred and seventh Street in the early sixties. 122 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:55.600 Became close to being born in taxi in Central Park, 123 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:59.199 but we made it to the hospital. My parents were 124 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:03.360 both artist. My mother was originally from New England and 125 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:07.680 she was studying art at the Boston Museum School, and 126 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:10.120 she convinced her father to send her to New York 127 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:14.399 City to study fashion illustration at Parsons. And when she 128 00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:16.959 came to New York City in nineteen fifty nine, she 129 00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:23.800 met my father, John, who was trying his hand at acting, 130 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:26.959 and he was a very talented person, very interesting person, 131 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:32.000 and he was at the Actors Studio with the Strasburgs 132 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:37.639 and was making some headway. Had managed to do some 133 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:42.919 Playhouse ninety, which is in a critically acclaimed live television 134 00:08:42.919 --> 00:08:46.879 program from the nineteen fifties, and my mother and he 135 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:50.759 just fell in love and had my sister, and then 136 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:53.960 I came along, and by the time I came along, 137 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.039 things had kind of started to fall apart. He was 138 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:02.360 having trouble dealing with the pressure of having children and 139 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:06.360 being married and maybe didn't have any other skills, and acting, 140 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:09.039 of course, is not a way to pay the bills, 141 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:12.440 and he began to kind of disappear and there were 142 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:18.039 some absences, and he was sort of coming apart emotionally mentally, 143 00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:23.039 and made many trips to Bellevue Hospital in New York City, 144 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:27.240 which is pretty well known as a psychiatric clinic, and 145 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:32.840 that was making things incredibly difficult for us. My mother 146 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:35.519 did her best to keep everything together, but when she 147 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:38.559 had an opportunity, she thought it would be better if 148 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.600 they si. She separated, and then we went our own way, 149 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:46.519 and life was still tough. She was working as a waitress, 150 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:51.159 making about thirty five bucks a week and holding down 151 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:53.559 two children by herself with no other help, so it 152 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:57.159 was really bare bones. We didn't have much we lived in. 153 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:01.120 After we lu moved to the lower we were sort 154 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:04.399 of bouncing around from apartment to apartment, barely able to 155 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:08.080 keep up with the rent. And we lived on Saint 156 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:10.840 Mark's Place, which is a pretty well known street in Manhattan. 157 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:13.799 In the village, and though the rent was super cheap, 158 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:17.120 we were robbed nine times. We'd come home often from 159 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:20.799 school and the apartment would we'd be ransacked. Sometimes the 160 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:24.720 couch would be slashed open, uh pills thrown around, aspirin. 161 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:27.240 A beautiful fur coat that my mother had sent her 162 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:29.399 from my mother had sent my mother's gr mother had 163 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:32.159 center from Maine was stolen, the television was stolen. We 164 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:33.279 were robbed quite often. 165 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:33.919 Well. 166 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:36.759 We moved uptown to Spanish Harlem in nineteen sixty seven 167 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:42.960 and still a cheap rent close to schools. Things were 168 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:45.120 different back then in the city. It was very much 169 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:47.639 a like a oh, I'd not say a war zone, 170 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:52.639 but in parts it was kind of a war zone, right, junkies, heroine, 171 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:58.080 all kinds of things, fires, little riots. There was actually 172 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:00.639 a race riot when we moved uptown we first moved 173 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:04.559 up there. It was rough, but I we loved it. 174 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:07.600 You know, when you're a kid, you love wherever you are. 175 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:11.000 You know, childhood is that special time when you can 176 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:14.840 make the worth of situations seem great if you can, 177 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:16.600 you know, if you have a little bit of spunk 178 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:18.759 and a little bit of imagination and if you believe 179 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:22.320 in something. But you know, my mother, who was struggling 180 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:25.679 very hard, was still an incredibly talented and brilliant person. 181 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:29.720 And we struggled a lot, but you know, it was 182 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:32.279 sort of like a badge of honor growing up during 183 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:35.759 those times with no support. And there was actually one 184 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:37.879 time when we were robbed in our hallway at nice 185 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:40.679 point by a young kid and he he threatened to 186 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:43.039 cut our tongues out if we told anyone, as he 187 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.720 reached into my sister's pocket and took out her cash. 188 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:49.039 So I we we did not live live a sheltered life. 189 00:11:49.159 --> 00:11:52.919 I mean, we really got full force reality. I mean, 190 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:58.720 nothing was spared. That's kind of the way things started out, 191 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:02.440 as rough as it all was. I was always very 192 00:12:02.440 --> 00:12:07.240 interested in art and books and going to museums, and 193 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:10.080 I was kind of an introverted kid in a way. 194 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:14.840 I sort of took after my mother's artistics bent. My sister, 195 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:17.960 on the other hand, was much more of a hell raiser. 196 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:21.360 Ran away from home at a very early age at 197 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:24.799 age thirteen, moved from New York to Detroit in the 198 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:28.039 early nineteen seventies with her boyfriend, who was older and 199 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:31.919 at least eighteen years old, and she lived there for 200 00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:36.519 a year and a half with gypsy's in a Hispanic 201 00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:39.200 Puerto Rican neighborhood. I'm sure it was very rough. I've 202 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:40.960 never been to Detroit, but I can imagine what it 203 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.879 was like back then. And when she came back, she 204 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:46.519 was still kind of on the run. She was a 205 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:51.480 hell raiser and running away and finding ways to make 206 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:54.799 money that you know, you didn't want to tell your 207 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:59.559 parents about. She lived with the Hell's Angels, she got 208 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:04.519 thrown out of the Hell's Angels clubhouse. It was more 209 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:07.639 I wouldn't say colorful, doesn't really even describe it. But 210 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:10.159 this is this is my life. You know, my threshold 211 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:14.320 for reality at a very young age was very different 212 00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:18.600 from maybe others, you know, living in a better situations 213 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:23.600 or even slightly better situations. Nevertheless, though all of this 214 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:26.759 was just this was just life, right, There was nothing 215 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:31.200 you can really change about it. I certainly wasn't a 216 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:34.639 much of a hell raiser, but I really wasn't afraid 217 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:36.200 of very much. You know, New York City in the 218 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:40.159 nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies was a much different place 219 00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:45.639 than it is now. So that's kind of where I 220 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:50.200 come from. Rough beginnings, but always with my eye on 221 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:57.360 you know, the sort of transcendental you know, occupations of art, music, books, 222 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:01.519 et cetera. So that's how it all kind of began. 223 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:06.120 My sister and I were never really all that close. 224 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:14.879 She got pregnant at age twenty five, she had a son, 225 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:18.840 and then we began to get close again, and that 226 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:20.840 was really important for me because I don't have any 227 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:23.399 other brothers and sisters, and she was it. My father 228 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:27.039 was never around. I didn't see him for decades at 229 00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:29.559 a time, but my sister really meant a lot to me, 230 00:14:30.200 --> 00:14:35.360 and she and I became close, and then one day 231 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:42.279 I got a call from a detective and who similar 232 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:43.919 friend left a note on my door and said that 233 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:47.399 to call this detective. And I called this number, and 234 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:51.279 this detective was not like it is in the movies 235 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:53.799 where they come to your house and they knock on 236 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:58.000 your door and gently bring you the news. It's really 237 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:00.200 not like that at all. I called this detective. I 238 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:02.279 was in a phone booth out in the street. I 239 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:04.840 didn't have a phone at the time, and he just said, 240 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.879 your sister's dead and you have to come down and 241 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:14.279 identify the body. Well, that was for the worst day 242 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:16.200 of my life, and I still find it very hard 243 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:21.440 to talk about now. As you can imagine, she had 244 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:26.159 shot herself in the head and killed herself. I was 245 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:31.360 just destroyed, and it was you know, grief takes a 246 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:34.440 long time. I'm still going through it. But you know, 247 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:37.360 when I lost my sister, I lost like half of myself. 248 00:15:38.200 --> 00:15:41.480 And I, you know, have a small family to begin with, 249 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:45.480 and she had her son and helping out with him 250 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:48.480 and as best I could. But yet you know, still 251 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:52.759 walking around like like the walking wounded. You know, I 252 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:55.759 felt like the walking destroyed. So I have a lot 253 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:59.879 of losses, big holes in my life and took me 254 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:02.840 years and years to sort of just begin to live 255 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:09.279 with it. So that's that's the story with that. At 256 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:12.399 the time, I was living in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. 257 00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:15.279 Yeah, tell us about us. Tell us about your life 258 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:21.080 in Williamsburg, Brooklyn in eighty six and the circumstances where 259 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:24.279 you met Bobby Ironside. 260 00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:28.320 Yeah, Well, to jump right off of where I left 261 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:32.159 off before the night that I got the news that 262 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:34.960 my sister was dead, I didn't have a phone, so 263 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:37.720 I ran over to Bobby's building, which is right across 264 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:42.440 the street, and I needed to use the phone. He 265 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:44.799 was living at south Ford Street and Driggs, which is 266 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:47.240 the south side of Williamsburg. I moved to Williamsburg in 267 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:53.039 nineteen eighty five. It was an old, beautiful, old neighborhood 268 00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:55.360 that had sort of was an industrial giant at one 269 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:59.080 time that just just decayed and decayed from the nineteen 270 00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:02.639 fifties and nineteen sixties and seventies, et cetera. A lot 271 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:08.599 of drugs, so, you know, so much crime, but there 272 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:10.920 was still, you know, thriving communities there. You know, I 273 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:13.240 didn't move into an empty lot. I mean there was 274 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:16.799 life there and it was a real neighborhood. I loved it. 275 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:19.519 Certainly wasn't for the faint of heart, and it wasn't 276 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:21.680 very different really from where I'd grown up in the city, 277 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:25.000 so I really enjoyed it. And bouncing around trying to 278 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.160 find the right place to live back then was easy 279 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:31.119 because everything was cheap and it was available. And I 280 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:33.359 moved into a building on South Fores Street, and I 281 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:38.000 met one of my upstairs neighbors, and he was living 282 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:39.839 with a friend. He had a roommate upstairs, and he 283 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:46.559 was loads of fun, very very talkative, very entertaining, very engaging. 284 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:51.440 He could hold the whole room talking with his colorful 285 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.640 stories and his way of being. He was very funny, 286 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:56.079 and we got along right away, and we were good 287 00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:00.200 friends pretty pretty quickly. So it was that night I 288 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:02.200 I I found out my sister died. I ran to 289 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:04.200 his building and I ran and knocked on his door, 290 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:06.279 and I said, I got to use your phone. He 291 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:09.920 was having a party and noise and people. It was 292 00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:11.359 all kind of a blur to me. But he put 293 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:13.160 me in a back room in the apartment and he 294 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:15.039 let me use his telephone, where I was able to 295 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:18.599 call my mother and tell her the news. So I 296 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:22.400 was there in his apartment that night, and that was 297 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:25.799 kind of, you know, the first of the you know, 298 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.400 many cementing steps in our friendship. And he was pretty 299 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:35.880 supportive and I was a wreck and dysfunctional, but I 300 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.359 felt safe in his apartment, calling my mother and bringing 301 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:40.480 her the news. Of course, then I had to take 302 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:42.880 a taxi downstairs and tell my father the terrible news 303 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:44.680 in person because he didn't have a phone. You know, 304 00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:48.000 he was very reclusive. He lived alone, uh, liked to 305 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.079 take pictures, worked as a bike messenger, lived in the 306 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:55.960 East village, and he was just very much urban high 307 00:18:55.960 --> 00:18:59.200 planes drift or a real loan er. UH didn't want 308 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:00.759 to be bothered, didn't have So I had to go 309 00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:03.279 down and tell them in person the terrible news. So 310 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:05.880 I was in the middle of like for the worst 311 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:12.599 transformative experiences of my life. Slowly but surely got on 312 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:17.799 my feet, got better jobs, learned some skills, some computer skills, 313 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:21.599 and then I landed a temp job working in publishing, 314 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:25.119 which was one of the best things that's ever happened 315 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:27.119 to me. I've worked in a lot of places in 316 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:29.680 the city, a lot of industries. Temping is a great 317 00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:36.160 way to get into different types of industries banking, finance, fashion, advertising, movies, television. 318 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:38.200 I mean, and then there's the boring stuff too, but 319 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.039 there's a lot of exciting opportunity. I found a job 320 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:43.720 in publishing, and I knew this is what I wanted 321 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:49.240 to do. It was great books, media, interesting people, interesting 322 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:53.640 all the time. Work is never boring, and I just 323 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:59.319 basically made myself indispensable to the publicity department at Doubleday Publishing. 324 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:02.079 It was at the sixty six to sixth building on 325 00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:06.599 Fifth Avenue at the time, so I really enjoyed that 326 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:08.799 I was exposed to all kinds of things that I 327 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:10.880 always loved, you know, I was I was type of 328 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:12.559 kid that would go to bookstores and be lost in 329 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:15.559 bookstores for hours like that. I'd never get bored. So 330 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:19.599 working for a book publisher was like a dream come true. 331 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:23.480 And I'd get off the elevator in the morning and 332 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:26.920 I'd see Isaac Asimov sitting there waiting in the reception 333 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:31.559 area every Wednesday to meet with his editor. Jack yo 334 00:20:31.640 --> 00:20:36.039 Nassis was an editor there at the time, and she 335 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:39.200 was a real attractor for all kinds of you know, 336 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:42.359 big personalities, well known people, and it was just like 337 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:46.839 became a common everyday thing, and it was exciting, and 338 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:49.559 it's still exciting. I still love it. But that was 339 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.759 the beginning of like, it was really a golden break 340 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:54.880 for me to find something I really love to do 341 00:20:55.599 --> 00:21:00.559 and something that I continued to do. So that's that's 342 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:02.480 how I got into the publishing world. I mean, I 343 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:05.599 went to art school, you know, I didn't go to college. 344 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:05.799 Really. 345 00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:09.279 I took some art classes at Hunter College, So I 346 00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:12.400 really wasn't like big on the academic end of things. 347 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:15.759 I didn't really like school. But I just needed to 348 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:18.400 find something that I really enjoyed, and I was lucky 349 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:19.880 to have been able to do that. 350 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.720 Tell us about a couple of the things that you 351 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:29.599 have in common with your new found friend Bobby and 352 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:31.839 some of the things that he has interests in that 353 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:32.559 you discover. 354 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:36.839 Well, Bobby and I were kind of an interesting pair. 355 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.640 He was gay and I was straight, and I've had 356 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:44.000 loads of gay friends. In fact, I love my gay friends. 357 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:48.759 They're always great friends to have. Bobby and I shared 358 00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:52.680 an interest in horror films, and I've always loved horror. 359 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:55.839 He always loved horror. We were born a day apart, 360 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.599 in the same city, the same year, and he was 361 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:03.119 tall and blonde and I was kind of smallish and blonde. 362 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:05.920 And he would often sort of say that we were 363 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:09.839 like brother and sister in a way, and we laughed 364 00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:12.240 a lot. We shared a lot of things, and we 365 00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:15.359 would go up into his apartment in his loft and 366 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:20.200 watch horror movies really cheap, you know, videos rented from 367 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:24.039 the little cheap video store down the street, and we'd 368 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:26.079 have a great old time. And there was one particular 369 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:28.480 movie that we loved the most, and it was called 370 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:32.319 The Honeymoon Killers. And it's a great movie. It's classic, 371 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:35.680 and we'd watch it over and over and we knew 372 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:38.359 every line and we would recite every line in the 373 00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:40.680 film and just roll over laughing. It was just the 374 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:45.079 greatest camp sort of campy horror Honeymoon Killers, a pair 375 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:48.400 of murderers traveling the country, ripping off widows for their 376 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:50.359 money and having to kill them sometimes. I mean, he 377 00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:53.680 dually doesn't get any better than that great cast. It 378 00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:57.240 became sort of like our word mantra, you know, our 379 00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:03.319 shared you know, our shared thing, our space. I was 380 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:06.920 always interested in true crime, but not like heavily at 381 00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:09.240 the time. I was more into like horror movies. My 382 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:13.359 interest in true crime wouldn't come until a little bit 383 00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:17.680 later in life. You know. It was I read a lot, 384 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:19.720 but I wasn't reading a lot of true crime until 385 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:25.400 like maybe the seven oh, like the nineteen nineties. And 386 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:29.279 Bobby's interest in true crime was a little more than mine. 387 00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:35.440 He was really interested in serial killers. And everyone's interested 388 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:39.200 in serial killers, of course, tons of books about them, movies, documentaries, 389 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:43.599 but this was a guy who really liked them and 390 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:47.599 actually started writing to them. But that wouldn't come until 391 00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:49.680 a little bit later into our friendship. But I might 392 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:52.240 be getting a little bit ahead of myself. But he 393 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:56.440 obviously had more interest in true crime than I did. 394 00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:58.680 I love a good scary story, don't get me wrong, 395 00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:03.480 I really do. But there's a big difference between reading 396 00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:08.319 about them and then, you know, communicating with them. It's 397 00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:11.559 very different. Yeah, it's a place where I don't want 398 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:15.359 to go. I know that all this stuff is very sellable, marketable. 399 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:19.079 It's chic in some circles, it's cool. I you know, 400 00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:22.440 I prefer a distance to it because, you know, let's 401 00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:25.720