WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.879 Pete Rose logged more hits in baseball history than anyone else. 2 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:06.519 No one has come close to breaking his record, but 3 00:00:06.599 --> 00:00:08.480 he was also at the center of one of the 4 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:12.919 game's biggest scandals, a scandal that changed baseball forever. In 5 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:16.359 the new book Charlie Hustle, New York Times bestselling author 6 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:21.039 Keith O'Brien chronicles Pete Rose's spectacular rise and fall, drawing 7 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:24.480 on first hand interviews with Rose himself and his associates. 8 00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:27.199 This is Pete Rose as We've never seen him before, 9 00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:30.679 by Charlie Hussele available wherever books are sold. 10 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:34.520 Lucky Land Casino, asking people, what's the weirdest place you've 11 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:35.240 gotten lucky? 12 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:38.000 Lucky in line at the Delhi I guess. 13 00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:40.399 Ah, in my dentist's office more than once. 14 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:42.039 Actually do I have to say? 15 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:42.439 Yes? 16 00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:42.679 You do? 17 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:45.439 In the car before my kid's PTA meeting. 18 00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:49.079 Really yes, excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 19 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:50.920 I never win and tell. 20 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:51.840 Well, there you have it. 21 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:54.679 You could get lucky anywhere playing at Lucky landslots dot 22 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:57.479 com play for free right now? Are you feeling lucky? 23 00:00:57.560 --> 00:00:57.600 No? 24 00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:01.079 We're necessary for long eighteen plus terms of this everything. 25 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:11.920 Else You are now listening to True Murder, The most 26 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:15.319 Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that 27 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:21.599 have written about him Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. 28 00:01:22.519 --> 00:01:26.319 Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 29 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:30.519 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 30 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:34.079 your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 31 00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:46.719 Good Evening, Elmer. Wayne Henley Junior was only fourteen when 32 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:50.400 he first became entangled with serial rapist and murderer Dean 33 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:56.400 Coral in nineteen seventy one. Fellow Houston, Texas teenager David 34 00:01:56.439 --> 00:01:59.760 Brooks had already been ensnared by the charming older man 35 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:03.599 bribe with cash to help lure boys to Coral's home. 36 00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:09.479 When Henley unwittingly entered the trap, chorrel evidently sensed he 37 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:14.159 be more use as a second accomplice than another victim. 38 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:17.280 He baited Henley with the same deal he'd given Brooks, 39 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:20.479 two hundred dollars for each boy they could bring him. 40 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:25.039 Henley didn't understand the full extent of what he had 41 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:29.319 signed up for at first, but once he started, Coral 42 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:31.919 convinced him that he had crossed the line of no 43 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:35.919 return and had to not only procure boys, but help 44 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:40.400 kill them and dispose of the bodies as well. When 45 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:43.759 Henley first took a life, he lost his moral base. 46 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:48.719 He felt doomed. By the time he was seventeen, he'd 47 00:02:48.759 --> 00:02:53.280 helped with multiple murders and believed he be killed too. 48 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:57.120 But on August eighth, nineteen seventy three, he picked up 49 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:01.840 a gun and shot Coral. He turned himself in. Henley 50 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:05.199 showed police where he and Brooks had buried Coral's victims 51 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:10.960 in mass graves. Twenty eight bodies were recovered, most of 52 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:15.520 them boys from Henley's neighborhood, making this the worst case 53 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:20.199 of serial murder in America at the time. The case 54 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:23.879 reveals gross failures in the way Copps handled parents please 55 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:27.520 to look for their missing sons, and how law enforcement 56 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:35.400 possibly protected a larger conspiracy. The Serial Killer's Apprentice tells 57 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:39.039 the story of Coral and his accomplices in its fullest 58 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:43.719 form to date. It also explores the concept of murder, 59 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:50.199 the predator's instinct for exploitable kids, current neuroscience about adolescent 60 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:56.039 brain vulnerabilities, the role of compartmentalization, the dynamic of a 61 00:03:56.120 --> 00:04:00.879 murder apprenticeship, and how tales like Henley's can aid with 62 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:06.680 early intervention. Despite his youth and cooperation, Henley went to 63 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:11.319 trial and received six life sentences. He's now sixty five 64 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:15.439 and has a sense of perspective about how adult predators 65 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:21.360 can turn formally good kids into criminals. Unexpectedly, He's willing 66 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:25.800 to talk. This book is his warning and the story 67 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:30.040 of the unspeakable evil and sorrow that befell Houston in 68 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:34.279 the early nineteen seventies. The book that we're featuring this 69 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:38.959 evening is The serial Killer's Apprentice, the true story of 70 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:44.759 how Houston's deadliest murderer turned a kid into a killing machine. 71 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:49.879 With my special guest, professor of forensic psychology, researcher and 72 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:55.399 best selling author Katherine Ramslin. Welcome back to the program, 73 00:04:55.439 --> 00:05:00.759 and thank you very much for this interview. Katherine Ramsland, thanks. 74 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:02.560 For having me. I'm happy to be here again with you. 75 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:07.279 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary book, 76 00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:09.720 The Serial Killers Apprentice. 77 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:12.879 I appreciate that it was quite a book to write. 78 00:05:13.639 --> 00:05:17.000 Absolutely, tell us how you came to be involved in 79 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:20.680 this book project and tell us about Tracy Ullman and 80 00:05:21.160 --> 00:05:22.720 her contribution to this book. 81 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:28.399 Okay, it started with my work with Dennis Rader, when 82 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:31.399 I had written a book based on five years of 83 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:37.600 interviewing him and putting together his autobiography. We did a 84 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:41.279 four part documentary on it for A and E. And 85 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:44.160 at that point the production team asked me if I 86 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:48.839 wanted to do another one, and they had picked some ideas, 87 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:52.279 none of which I thought were feasible, and I said, 88 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:57.519 I want to speak with Wayne Henley. And I had 89 00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:01.399 had this in mind for years, based on watching him 90 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:06.759 in an interview on a really small documentary called The Collectors, 91 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:10.759 which is about these art collectors of serial killer art, 92 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:14.519 and so I had always wanted to speak with him. 93 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:18.759 It turned out Tracy Omen, who was on our production team, 94 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:22.160 had already been speaking to him because she had done 95 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:24.800 a lot of work on the John Wayne Gacy case 96 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:30.040 and she had connected into these sex trafficking networks and 97 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:33.800 found out that some of the things that Wayne and 98 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:37.040 David Brooks, the other accomplice, said back in nineteen seventy 99 00:06:37.079 --> 00:06:42.279 three about there being a large networked sex trafficking operation 100 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:46.319 out of Dallas was in fact true, and she had 101 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:47.720 done a lot of that work and so she had 102 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:51.240 been talking with him. So she introduced me to him 103 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:55.839 and since he already trusted her, he was willing to 104 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:59.319 talk with me, and that got the process rolling. 105 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:04.519 And what did you want most to explore in terms 106 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:08.040 of this new book project, Well, one of the. 107 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:10.439 Things we wanted to do was set it in the 108 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:14.399 right context. The things the police missed or refused to 109 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:20.279 even follow leads on. That was Tracy's part, and at 110 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:25.319 that point she had been she had ten years worth 111 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:28.360 of research on all of that, so she framed it 112 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:31.319 that way, and I also wanted to look at some 113 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:33.759 of the earlier books. The one thing I want to 114 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:37.560 say is many people think the Jack Olsen book The 115 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:41.279 Man with the Candy is the definitive work on that, 116 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:44.240 but in fact, there's so many holes and errors in 117 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:47.079 that book. He didn't even take it to the trial. 118 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:51.519 It was a quick hit, journalistic piece of work based 119 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:58.000 only on flawed and biased police reports, with multiple issues 120 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:03.800 about memory and and corruption of people talking to each 121 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:06.959 other and before putting together their reports. So there were 122 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:08.839 a lot of issues with the police supports, and that 123 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:12.759 book is based largely in those and some interviews with family, 124 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:16.480 but no interviews with Henley or Brooks or anyone who 125 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:20.079 knew either one of those two so it was very 126 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:24.360 clear to me there needs to be a narrative that 127 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:28.439 includes far more than the early narratives ever did. And 128 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:33.919 as a result, the narrative changed considerably in terms of 129 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:38.440 the way Wayne Henley was presented. I mean, he originally 130 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:43.799 was brought in almost as a victim potential target for 131 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:48.159 Dean Coral, the candyman from the early nineteen seventies, and 132 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:53.399 he became an accomplice. But the narrative about him was 133 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:55.720 that he tricked all of his friends into coming to 134 00:08:55.799 --> 00:08:59.759 parties where they were abused and assaulted and murdered, and 135 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:02.799 then he helped bury them. And that's not the narrative 136 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:08.360 at all. So having the long, intense interviews with him 137 00:09:08.519 --> 00:09:11.799 that I had over the course of a year changed 138 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:14.639 a lot of my perception of him, and I'm hoping 139 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:17.120 to change the perception of other people. 140 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:21.960 You're right that Wayne Henley hoped to and hopes to 141 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.960 contribute something redemptive from his acts. 142 00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:28.960 One of the things that he had said to someone 143 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:32.000 like a journalist or some was that he didn't want 144 00:09:32.039 --> 00:09:34.360 to be remembered only for the things he had done 145 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:38.519 when he was a teenager that he deeply regretted was 146 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:42.279 horrified he'd ever even been involved in had lots of remorse, 147 00:09:42.759 --> 00:09:45.440 and he hoped that someday he'd be able to use 148 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:51.600 his experience to help others. And so that's exactly what 149 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:56.240 our approach became was, how does this become a cautionary 150 00:09:56.279 --> 00:10:00.200 tale for today? How is what happened fifty years go 151 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.480 in Houston, Texas, where at least twenty seven young men 152 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:09.159 were killed? How does that help us today? Well, there's 153 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:11.320 a lot of ways it helps us today. And I 154 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:17.399 devoted an entire chapter just to guidance for parents, teachers, 155 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:22.200 youth counselors to start looking for how predators are not 156 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:28.000 just looking for victims, They're looking for partners, and they 157 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:33.879 look among teens. And Wayne Henley was fifteen when he 158 00:10:34.039 --> 00:10:40.600 was first engaged in this murder team. David Brooks was 159 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:43.159 He was twelve years old when he first met Dean. 160 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:47.799 He was brought in because he had really nowhere else 161 00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:50.159 to go. Both of his parents had split up. Both 162 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:52.720 of them thought he was kind of no good, really 163 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:55.879 paid no attention to him. Dean Coral filled that hole 164 00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:59.399 and became like a big brother. And he moved in 165 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:02.720 with Dean, and he got money and he got a car, 166 00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:05.039 and he got a number of things to keep his 167 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:08.279 mouth shut and to have a weight, a place to 168 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:11.279 stay in a way to make some income. So he 169 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:14.679 was swept into it very early, and then he brought 170 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:21.000 Wayne into it. Wayne also bought into Coral's initial narrative 171 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:25.919 that he was looking for boys to put into this 172 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:30.279 network to sell and those boys would end up in 173 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:34.759 California being pool boys for some rich people. So everybody 174 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:38.799 wins essentially, is the way he framed it. And then 175 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:43.080 and I think when Wayne fell for that and actually 176 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:48.000 did help him to secure a hitchhiker, at that point, 177 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:51.759 Coral murdered that boy and then told Wayne, you're in 178 00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:55.519 this now, like it or not. And so he's trapped, 179 00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:58.840 he's leveraged. They're both leveraged. And that's what we wanted 180 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:02.840 to show is how vulnerable teenagers can be to an 181 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:07.120 adult predator with a plan and a way to choreograph 182 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:11.000 their involvement and then keep them quiet and keep them 183 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:13.960 working for him. And there's more of that than you 184 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:17.080 might imagine. So that's one of the things I think 185 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:22.759 that Wayne wanted to had hoped to present, was here's 186 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:28.639 my experience, use it to help others not fall into 187 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:29.840 this like I did. 188 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:36.639 You chronicle this extraordinary process, and first with information from 189 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:40.399 provided by David Brooks and then by Wayne Henley. But 190 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:44.759 David Brooks was, as you write, the first known apprentice 191 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:48.879 or handyman or Dean Coral. So tell us as you 192 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:54.399 had discovered on how exactly this process works to slowly 193 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:59.320 eat away at the moral code that these children were 194 00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:02.960 raised with, to get to the point where Dean Coral 195 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:06.320 has them assisting in murderous acts. 196 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:13.360 So calling David Brooks the first known apprentice is important 197 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:18.000 because we think there were others before David Brooks. It 198 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:21.159 was just hard to you know, with Dean Coral dead, 199 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:24.720 it was hard to really follow any leads on that. 200 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:27.559 But it seemed from some of the things he said 201 00:13:27.559 --> 00:13:30.720 to Brooks that he had certainly done this before, and 202 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:35.039 from some of the victims he picked who had been 203 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:38.559 doing things for him, like stealing things that he could 204 00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:42.799 then you know, sell elsewhere, it looked as if that 205 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:46.120 he was involved with some others before Brooks. But we 206 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:49.679 really only know and Brooks did not give media interviews, 207 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:55.399 but he did have three different police confessions. One was 208 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:58.360 just I'm kind of a bystander. I wasn't really involved 209 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:02.039 in this, Yes, I lived with them, But eventually he 210 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:06.000 copped to his involvement in it, though not all the way. 211 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:09.240 Mostly he kind of threw Wayne Henley under the bus, 212 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:13.480 and even though he was with Chral for a lot 213 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:16.440 longer than Wayne and was involved in some of the 214 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:19.600 murders before Wayne. But essentially the way this works is 215 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:23.559 an adult predator like Dean Coral and he was known 216 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:26.679 as a candyman because he did make candy with his 217 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:30.399 mother and he would dispense it to kids to bring 218 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:33.120 them around they lived. They had a candy shop near 219 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:36.399 an elementary school, and he would would not just give 220 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:39.799 out candy, but then he'd tell these these boys that 221 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:42.519 they could come over to his place and play pool 222 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:45.320 and ride on his motorcycle and he'd take him to 223 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:48.960 the beach and whatnot. And he was basically scoping out 224 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:54.279 who then might become eligible for sexual favors for him, 225 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:57.360 and some of them agreed to it for five or 226 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:00.919 ten dollars, you know, minor things, but still they were 227 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:05.519 sexually assaulted, and so little by little he's looking for 228 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:09.480 people who've crossed a line and you know, committed some 229 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.879 minor acts, so it looks like their moral code already 230 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:19.360 is eroded to some extent. And David Brooks was smoking dope. 231 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:24.679 He had I think of a burglary on his record 232 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:29.200 in another town, but he was a juvenile, so obviously 233 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:32.960 didn't really count for much. But it was clear to 234 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:37.440 Dean Coral that this is a kid who can be manipulated, 235 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:42.559 who he's got soft limits, which is what I talk about, 236 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:45.200 the difer between hard and soft limits. Hard limits being 237 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:49.879 something you absolutely will not do under any circumstances, and 238 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:54.000 soft limits being things that are appliable. And so a 239 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:57.159 predator looks for those and looks for how to manipulate 240 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:01.559 them and bring the kid further and further into criminal 241 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:07.480 activity that's increasingly more serious. And so David Brooks came 242 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:12.120 upon Dean one day with two kids tied to his 243 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:15.440 bed and they were naked. He was naked, and he 244 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:19.639 kind of told Brooks, you know, forget about this, we're 245 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:22.879 just having fun, and little by little it was clear 246 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:26.240 that he was actually bringing kids in to assault them 247 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:29.759 and then kill them. And then he brought Brooks into 248 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.039 help with the burials in a boat shed that he 249 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:36.840 had rented and Brooks was doing this and then he 250 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:42.679 was being paid to bring boys to Dean Coral. We 251 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:46.840 clearly see that his moral compass had been breached pretty 252 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:50.120 effectively with money and then a car or a bottom 253 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:53.799 a car. And he was also dispensing drugs in some 254 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:58.200 of the parks in the Houston Heights, so he was primed. 255 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:01.360 And then he saw Wayne Henley and he was told 256 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:04.720 to bring kids who were runaways, who had a record, 257 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:10.599 who dropouts, you know, sort of society's marginalized throwaways. And 258 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:15.240 so he saw Wayne Henley one day outside school walk 259 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:18.200 away clearly, and he was going down to the pool hall, 260 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:20.960 and clearly he was a dropout. He wasn't going to 261 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:25.400 school or he was truant that day. So Brooks kind 262 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:27.960 of held the money in front of him, and Henley 263 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:30.319 needed it because he had a father. He was from 264 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:32.559 an abusive home. He had a father who had abandoned 265 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:36.440 the family, had also tried shooting him a couple of times, 266 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:40.759 had beat up his mother and grandmother, and he, at 267 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:43.759 the age of you know, thirteen and fourteen, was working 268 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:45.960 part time at a gas station to try to bring 269 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:49.039 in some money to help. He was the oldest of 270 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:52.559 four boys trying to help his mother. So he sees 271 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:55.359 David Brooks with all this money and a car, and 272 00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:58.039 he's wondering, wow, you know, how can I be cut 273 00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:01.920 in on some of that? Friends him and this is 274 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:07.039 the predator reaching through and accomplished to yet another kid 275 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:12.039 to bring aboard. So it's highly manipulative and layered. So 276 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:16.799 Henley trusts Brooks, and Brooks basically tells him, you know, oh, 277 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:19.079 we're going to cut you in on this, and he 278 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:21.759 brings Dean down to the gas station to meet Henley, 279 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:26.039 and then they bring him over to Dean's place, at 280 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:29.079 which point I have a scene in the book where 281 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:34.400 it's pretty clear Dean is just about to grab Henley 282 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:39.519 and probably bind him as a knife right there, and 283 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:43.720 Henley immediately says, I told my mother where I am 284 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:48.359 which and everything shifted right in that moment. Okay, you know, 285 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:52.039 take him home. But I think what happened is that 286 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:56.480 Quarrel realized that Brooks, who was a kind of geeky 287 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:01.240 outsider type who really didn't didn't want to be a part, 288 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:05.119 was very reluctant, didn't have really many connections with the 289 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:10.039 other kids, compared to Wayne Henley, who was really a friendly, open, 290 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:14.200 approachable kid with a lot of connections in the neighborhood 291 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:18.599 among the different groups of boys, and so he figured 292 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:22.079 this would be a far better accomplice to me than 293 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:26.359 Brooks would be. And so he started a plan to 294 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:31.440 figure out his weakness. Is he needs money, and I'll 295 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:34.400 approach him that way. And that's essentially what happens with 296 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:38.039 these adult predators. They're looking to see what's the kid 297 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:41.480 looking for? Is it money? Is it drugs? Is it alcohol? 298 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:46.920 Is it stimulation and fun? Are they lonely? Etc. They're 299 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:51.480 looking for their vulnerability and then they exploit it and 300 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:55.079 they keep the pressure on until they have leveraged that 301 00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:58.240 person and compromised them to the point where they're too 302 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:00.720 scared to act and to tell anybody. 303 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:05.720 You also say that it's quite powerful to have these 304 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:10.799 Wayne Henley regarded as being recruited into a criminal enterprise 305 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:13.039 for his intellect and his abilities. 306 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:17.480 I say that in the book it's hard to know 307 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:21.519 what was on. I mean, the important thing is quorl 308 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.200 is dead, so it's hard to know what he was thinking. 309 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.559 We can only extrapolate from the behaviors that we do know. 310 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:32.480 And I want to point out that Wayne Henley is 311 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:35.400 the only accomplice to a serial killer who killed the 312 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:40.960 serial killer. To end things right, he two friends, Coral 313 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.160 was about to kill both of them, and also Wayne. 314 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:47.000 Wayne talked his way out of being he had been 315 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:50.559 bound after he passed out getting high and whatnot. He 316 00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:54.400 had been bound, and he talked Dean into letting him 317 00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:56.680 free and said he would help kill the other two. 318 00:20:57.559 --> 00:20:59.759 But instead he picked up a gun and killed Coral. 319 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:04.079 So we have very little Coral was a highly secretive man, 320 00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:08.720 and even to his accomplices, he would tell them very little. 321 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:13.680 He had a private mailbox that as soon as he 322 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:15.920 got anything there, he'd tear it up to make sure 323 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:20.559 nobody saw it. So it's hard to know what his 324 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:25.640 intent and what his thinking process was. But I make 325 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:31.200 inferences based on what is known from Brookes and Henley 326 00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:34.839 and what we do know about adult predators. It's easy 327 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:37.799 to put all that together. For example, Wayne said to me, 328 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:41.480 the first thing Dean ever said to him was he 329 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:45.720 told him a dirty joke. And I said, wow, classic 330 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:50.359 predator move. Because if you respond, well, now they know 331 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:56.200 you will cross a line. If you don't, they can 332 00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.240 always oh blow it off. Oh just kidding, just kidding 333 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:03.839 and golf and that's a classic predator move. So there 334 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:06.799 we go. We have Dean Coral doing exactly what we 335 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:10.920 know adult predators will often do. 336 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:13.680 You talk about, though, the the threat that he had. 337 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:16.839 He said that there was a criminal organization in Dallas 338 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:21.680 selling boys, buying and selling boys. So what was the 339 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:25.160 what was the premise that Henley thought that he was 340 00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:28.200 joining this organization for and the rule that potentially he 341 00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:29.839 could have in that organization. 342 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:34.519 Okay, so there was that was that evolved that the 343 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:39.519 idea that evolved. Initially it was that Coral was selling 344 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.880 these you know, grabbing these boys and selling them to 345 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:48.359 California wealthy people who wanted yard workers and pool boys, 346 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:55.400 et cetera. That and that sounded okay, But as Wayne 347 00:22:55.519 --> 00:23:02.079 was was leveraged into this, it really became much more ominous. 348 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:05.599 Now this minded this is the era when The Godfather 349 00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:09.119 was a big you know, book and movie whatnot, the 350 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:14.279 idea of organized crime and and all these assistants and 351 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:19.599 whatnot being committed to the to the ideas. So there 352 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:21.920 was that sense right off the bat that there was 353 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:26.599 this larger organization and it became increasingly more sinister because 354 00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:30.920 when Wayne did help to bring in a kid that 355 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:36.799 they met hitchhiking and then was told afterward, we killed him. 356 00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:41.960 And now you're implicated, and this organization knows about you, 357 00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:44.440 so if you try to talk, they're going to find out. 358 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:49.200 And so to a fifteen year old kid, what you 359 00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:54.279 know with limited resources, who's a ninth grade dropout, that 360 00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:59.960 sounds pretty ominous and scary, and he even thinks about it. 361 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.680 And then when he brought a friend over one day 362 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:08.160 who Coral tackled hog Tide right in front of him 363 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:13.480 and then told him he killed him, and you are involved. 364 00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:17.039 So now so that first guy, the hitchhiker, now your friend. 365 00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:22.000 You're involved. If you go to the police, you take 366 00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:25.480 a big risk because this organization is aware of you. Initially, 367 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:29.319 Hanley had wanted to wanted the organization aware of him 368 00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:31.880 because he thought one of his childhood friends had been 369 00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:34.720 abducted from the neighborhood by Coral, but he didn't know 370 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:37.759 that at the time had been abducted a year or 371 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:42.799 two before. He thought, if he did well in this organization, 372 00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:45.839 he could find out where that boy was and bring 373 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.240 him home, because he had made a promise to that 374 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:50.960 boy's mother that he would do everything he could to 375 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:53.480 try to do that. So he thought, if he did 376 00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:57.319 a good job in this organization, he'd find out their 377 00:24:57.400 --> 00:24:59.519 secrets and he'd be able to go find that boy. 378 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.799 Did he know that boy was dead and buried in 379 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:07.920 Dean's boatshed. So but as Wayne began to think he 380 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:12.119 really should go to the police, he thought, what, it's 381 00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:15.240 just me against this adult predator. Who who are they 382 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:18.519 going to believe? It's just me and this man who's 383 00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:20.960 got it all together, he's got a job, he's got 384 00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:24.519 you know, why would they believe me? And even if 385 00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:28.440 they did and they arrested him and he got out, 386 00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:30.599 then he's going to come after me. Or if he 387 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:32.880 didn't get out, then the organization is going to come 388 00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:36.640 after me for, you know, snitching on one of their people. 389 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:39.640 So he was in this kind of no win situation 390 00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:43.039 in his own imagination. He couldn't and he might have 391 00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:45.519 been right. Frankly, when we looked at how the police 392 00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:50.799 actually did handle that lead, they did very little follow 393 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:54.400 through on it. Even though there was an organization out 394 00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:57.839 of Dallas exactly as Dean had described. There really was 395 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:01.720 such an organization, but the at least never picked up 396 00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:05.119 on it. And those who did a little later still 397 00:26:05.160 --> 00:26:08.039 did not do much with it in terms of connecting 398 00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:11.559 it to Dean Coral. So Henley might not have been 399 00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:14.720 wrong about it about his sense of no one's going 400 00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:18.160 to listen to me, because it's possible they might not 401 00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:21.799