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Speaker 5: Good Evening, Elmer. Wayne Henley Junior was only fourteen when
Speaker 5: he first became entangled with serial rapist and murderer Dean
Speaker 5: Coral in nineteen seventy one. Fellow Houston, Texas teenager David
Speaker 5: Brooks had already been ensnared by the charming older man
Speaker 5: bribe with cash to help lure boys to Coral's home.
Speaker 5: When Henley unwittingly entered the trap, chorrel evidently sensed he
Speaker 5: be more use as a second accomplice than another victim.
Speaker 5: He baited Henley with the same deal he'd given Brooks,
Speaker 5: two hundred dollars for each boy they could bring him.
Speaker 5: Henley didn't understand the full extent of what he had
Speaker 5: signed up for at first, but once he started, Coral
Speaker 5: convinced him that he had crossed the line of no
Speaker 5: return and had to not only procure boys, but help
Speaker 5: kill them and dispose of the bodies as well. When
Speaker 5: Henley first took a life, he lost his moral base.
Speaker 5: He felt doomed. By the time he was seventeen, he'd
Speaker 5: helped with multiple murders and believed he be killed too.
Speaker 5: But on August eighth, nineteen seventy three, he picked up
Speaker 5: a gun and shot Coral. He turned himself in. Henley
Speaker 5: showed police where he and Brooks had buried Coral's victims
Speaker 5: in mass graves. Twenty eight bodies were recovered, most of
Speaker 5: them boys from Henley's neighborhood, making this the worst case
Speaker 5: of serial murder in America at the time. The case
Speaker 5: reveals gross failures in the way Copps handled parents please
Speaker 5: to look for their missing sons, and how law enforcement
Speaker 5: possibly protected a larger conspiracy. The Serial Killer's Apprentice tells
Speaker 5: the story of Coral and his accomplices in its fullest
Speaker 5: form to date. It also explores the concept of murder,
Speaker 5: the predator's instinct for exploitable kids, current neuroscience about adolescent
Speaker 5: brain vulnerabilities, the role of compartmentalization, the dynamic of a
Speaker 5: murder apprenticeship, and how tales like Henley's can aid with
Speaker 5: early intervention. Despite his youth and cooperation, Henley went to
Speaker 5: trial and received six life sentences. He's now sixty five
Speaker 5: and has a sense of perspective about how adult predators
Speaker 5: can turn formally good kids into criminals. Unexpectedly, He's willing
Speaker 5: to talk. This book is his warning and the story
Speaker 5: of the unspeakable evil and sorrow that befell Houston in
Speaker 5: the early nineteen seventies. The book that we're featuring this
Speaker 5: evening is The serial Killer's Apprentice, the true story of
Speaker 5: how Houston's deadliest murderer turned a kid into a killing machine.
Speaker 5: With my special guest, professor of forensic psychology, researcher and
Speaker 5: best selling author Katherine Ramslin. Welcome back to the program,
Speaker 5: and thank you very much for this interview. Katherine Ramsland, thanks.
Speaker 6: For having me. I'm happy to be here again with you.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary book,
Speaker 5: The Serial Killers Apprentice.
Speaker 6: I appreciate that it was quite a book to write.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, tell us how you came to be involved in
Speaker 5: this book project and tell us about Tracy Ullman and
Speaker 5: her contribution to this book.
Speaker 6: Okay, it started with my work with Dennis Rader, when
Speaker 6: I had written a book based on five years of
Speaker 6: interviewing him and putting together his autobiography. We did a
Speaker 6: four part documentary on it for A and E. And
Speaker 6: at that point the production team asked me if I
Speaker 6: wanted to do another one, and they had picked some ideas,
Speaker 6: none of which I thought were feasible, and I said,
Speaker 6: I want to speak with Wayne Henley. And I had
Speaker 6: had this in mind for years, based on watching him
Speaker 6: in an interview on a really small documentary called The Collectors,
Speaker 6: which is about these art collectors of serial killer art,
Speaker 6: and so I had always wanted to speak with him.
Speaker 6: It turned out Tracy Omen, who was on our production team,
Speaker 6: had already been speaking to him because she had done
Speaker 6: a lot of work on the John Wayne Gacy case
Speaker 6: and she had connected into these sex trafficking networks and
Speaker 6: found out that some of the things that Wayne and
Speaker 6: David Brooks, the other accomplice, said back in nineteen seventy
Speaker 6: three about there being a large networked sex trafficking operation
Speaker 6: out of Dallas was in fact true, and she had
Speaker 6: done a lot of that work and so she had
Speaker 6: been talking with him. So she introduced me to him
Speaker 6: and since he already trusted her, he was willing to
Speaker 6: talk with me, and that got the process rolling.
Speaker 5: And what did you want most to explore in terms
Speaker 5: of this new book project, Well, one of the.
Speaker 6: Things we wanted to do was set it in the
Speaker 6: right context. The things the police missed or refused to
Speaker 6: even follow leads on. That was Tracy's part, and at
Speaker 6: that point she had been she had ten years worth
Speaker 6: of research on all of that, so she framed it
Speaker 6: that way, and I also wanted to look at some
Speaker 6: of the earlier books. The one thing I want to
Speaker 6: say is many people think the Jack Olsen book The
Speaker 6: Man with the Candy is the definitive work on that,
Speaker 6: but in fact, there's so many holes and errors in
Speaker 6: that book. He didn't even take it to the trial.
Speaker 6: It was a quick hit, journalistic piece of work based
Speaker 6: only on flawed and biased police reports, with multiple issues
Speaker 6: about memory and and corruption of people talking to each
Speaker 6: other and before putting together their reports. So there were
Speaker 6: a lot of issues with the police supports, and that
Speaker 6: book is based largely in those and some interviews with family,
Speaker 6: but no interviews with Henley or Brooks or anyone who
Speaker 6: knew either one of those two so it was very
Speaker 6: clear to me there needs to be a narrative that
Speaker 6: includes far more than the early narratives ever did. And
Speaker 6: as a result, the narrative changed considerably in terms of
Speaker 6: the way Wayne Henley was presented. I mean, he originally
Speaker 6: was brought in almost as a victim potential target for
Speaker 6: Dean Coral, the candyman from the early nineteen seventies, and
Speaker 6: he became an accomplice. But the narrative about him was
Speaker 6: that he tricked all of his friends into coming to
Speaker 6: parties where they were abused and assaulted and murdered, and
Speaker 6: then he helped bury them. And that's not the narrative
Speaker 6: at all. So having the long, intense interviews with him
Speaker 6: that I had over the course of a year changed
Speaker 6: a lot of my perception of him, and I'm hoping
Speaker 6: to change the perception of other people.
Speaker 5: You're right that Wayne Henley hoped to and hopes to
Speaker 5: contribute something redemptive from his acts.
Speaker 6: One of the things that he had said to someone
Speaker 6: like a journalist or some was that he didn't want
Speaker 6: to be remembered only for the things he had done
Speaker 6: when he was a teenager that he deeply regretted was
Speaker 6: horrified he'd ever even been involved in had lots of remorse,
Speaker 6: and he hoped that someday he'd be able to use
Speaker 6: his experience to help others. And so that's exactly what
Speaker 6: our approach became was, how does this become a cautionary
Speaker 6: tale for today? How is what happened fifty years go
Speaker 6: in Houston, Texas, where at least twenty seven young men
Speaker 6: were killed? How does that help us today? Well, there's
Speaker 6: a lot of ways it helps us today. And I
Speaker 6: devoted an entire chapter just to guidance for parents, teachers,
Speaker 6: youth counselors to start looking for how predators are not
Speaker 6: just looking for victims, They're looking for partners, and they
Speaker 6: look among teens. And Wayne Henley was fifteen when he
Speaker 6: was first engaged in this murder team. David Brooks was
Speaker 6: He was twelve years old when he first met Dean.
Speaker 6: He was brought in because he had really nowhere else
Speaker 6: to go. Both of his parents had split up. Both
Speaker 6: of them thought he was kind of no good, really
Speaker 6: paid no attention to him. Dean Coral filled that hole
Speaker 6: and became like a big brother. And he moved in
Speaker 6: with Dean, and he got money and he got a car,
Speaker 6: and he got a number of things to keep his
Speaker 6: mouth shut and to have a weight, a place to
Speaker 6: stay in a way to make some income. So he
Speaker 6: was swept into it very early, and then he brought
Speaker 6: Wayne into it. Wayne also bought into Coral's initial narrative
Speaker 6: that he was looking for boys to put into this
Speaker 6: network to sell and those boys would end up in
Speaker 6: California being pool boys for some rich people. So everybody
Speaker 6: wins essentially, is the way he framed it. And then
Speaker 6: and I think when Wayne fell for that and actually
Speaker 6: did help him to secure a hitchhiker, at that point,
Speaker 6: Coral murdered that boy and then told Wayne, you're in
Speaker 6: this now, like it or not. And so he's trapped,
Speaker 6: he's leveraged. They're both leveraged. And that's what we wanted
Speaker 6: to show is how vulnerable teenagers can be to an
Speaker 6: adult predator with a plan and a way to choreograph
Speaker 6: their involvement and then keep them quiet and keep them
Speaker 6: working for him. And there's more of that than you
Speaker 6: might imagine. So that's one of the things I think
Speaker 6: that Wayne wanted to had hoped to present, was here's
Speaker 6: my experience, use it to help others not fall into
Speaker 6: this like I did.
Speaker 5: You chronicle this extraordinary process, and first with information from
Speaker 5: provided by David Brooks and then by Wayne Henley. But
Speaker 5: David Brooks was, as you write, the first known apprentice
Speaker 5: or handyman or Dean Coral. So tell us as you
Speaker 5: had discovered on how exactly this process works to slowly
Speaker 5: eat away at the moral code that these children were
Speaker 5: raised with, to get to the point where Dean Coral
Speaker 5: has them assisting in murderous acts.
Speaker 6: So calling David Brooks the first known apprentice is important
Speaker 6: because we think there were others before David Brooks. It
Speaker 6: was just hard to you know, with Dean Coral dead,
Speaker 6: it was hard to really follow any leads on that.
Speaker 6: But it seemed from some of the things he said
Speaker 6: to Brooks that he had certainly done this before, and
Speaker 6: from some of the victims he picked who had been
Speaker 6: doing things for him, like stealing things that he could
Speaker 6: then you know, sell elsewhere, it looked as if that
Speaker 6: he was involved with some others before Brooks. But we
Speaker 6: really only know and Brooks did not give media interviews,
Speaker 6: but he did have three different police confessions. One was
Speaker 6: just I'm kind of a bystander. I wasn't really involved
Speaker 6: in this, Yes, I lived with them, But eventually he
Speaker 6: copped to his involvement in it, though not all the way.
Speaker 6: Mostly he kind of threw Wayne Henley under the bus,
Speaker 6: and even though he was with Chral for a lot
Speaker 6: longer than Wayne and was involved in some of the
Speaker 6: murders before Wayne. But essentially the way this works is
Speaker 6: an adult predator like Dean Coral and he was known
Speaker 6: as a candyman because he did make candy with his
Speaker 6: mother and he would dispense it to kids to bring
Speaker 6: them around they lived. They had a candy shop near
Speaker 6: an elementary school, and he would would not just give
Speaker 6: out candy, but then he'd tell these these boys that
Speaker 6: they could come over to his place and play pool
Speaker 6: and ride on his motorcycle and he'd take him to
Speaker 6: the beach and whatnot. And he was basically scoping out
Speaker 6: who then might become eligible for sexual favors for him,
Speaker 6: and some of them agreed to it for five or
Speaker 6: ten dollars, you know, minor things, but still they were
Speaker 6: sexually assaulted, and so little by little he's looking for
Speaker 6: people who've crossed a line and you know, committed some
Speaker 6: minor acts, so it looks like their moral code already
Speaker 6: is eroded to some extent. And David Brooks was smoking dope.
Speaker 6: He had I think of a burglary on his record
Speaker 6: in another town, but he was a juvenile, so obviously
Speaker 6: didn't really count for much. But it was clear to
Speaker 6: Dean Coral that this is a kid who can be manipulated,
Speaker 6: who he's got soft limits, which is what I talk about,
Speaker 6: the difer between hard and soft limits. Hard limits being
Speaker 6: something you absolutely will not do under any circumstances, and
Speaker 6: soft limits being things that are appliable. And so a
Speaker 6: predator looks for those and looks for how to manipulate
Speaker 6: them and bring the kid further and further into criminal
Speaker 6: activity that's increasingly more serious. And so David Brooks came
Speaker 6: upon Dean one day with two kids tied to his
Speaker 6: bed and they were naked. He was naked, and he
Speaker 6: kind of told Brooks, you know, forget about this, we're
Speaker 6: just having fun, and little by little it was clear
Speaker 6: that he was actually bringing kids in to assault them
Speaker 6: and then kill them. And then he brought Brooks into
Speaker 6: help with the burials in a boat shed that he
Speaker 6: had rented and Brooks was doing this and then he
Speaker 6: was being paid to bring boys to Dean Coral. We
Speaker 6: clearly see that his moral compass had been breached pretty
Speaker 6: effectively with money and then a car or a bottom
Speaker 6: a car. And he was also dispensing drugs in some
Speaker 6: of the parks in the Houston Heights, so he was primed.
Speaker 6: And then he saw Wayne Henley and he was told
Speaker 6: to bring kids who were runaways, who had a record,
Speaker 6: who dropouts, you know, sort of society's marginalized throwaways. And
Speaker 6: so he saw Wayne Henley one day outside school walk
Speaker 6: away clearly, and he was going down to the pool hall,
Speaker 6: and clearly he was a dropout. He wasn't going to
Speaker 6: school or he was truant that day. So Brooks kind
Speaker 6: of held the money in front of him, and Henley
Speaker 6: needed it because he had a father. He was from
Speaker 6: an abusive home. He had a father who had abandoned
Speaker 6: the family, had also tried shooting him a couple of times,
Speaker 6: had beat up his mother and grandmother, and he, at
Speaker 6: the age of you know, thirteen and fourteen, was working
Speaker 6: part time at a gas station to try to bring
Speaker 6: in some money to help. He was the oldest of
Speaker 6: four boys trying to help his mother. So he sees
Speaker 6: David Brooks with all this money and a car, and
Speaker 6: he's wondering, wow, you know, how can I be cut
Speaker 6: in on some of that? Friends him and this is
Speaker 6: the predator reaching through and accomplished to yet another kid
Speaker 6: to bring aboard. So it's highly manipulative and layered. So
Speaker 6: Henley trusts Brooks, and Brooks basically tells him, you know, oh,
Speaker 6: we're going to cut you in on this, and he
Speaker 6: brings Dean down to the gas station to meet Henley,
Speaker 6: and then they bring him over to Dean's place, at
Speaker 6: which point I have a scene in the book where
Speaker 6: it's pretty clear Dean is just about to grab Henley
Speaker 6: and probably bind him as a knife right there, and
Speaker 6: Henley immediately says, I told my mother where I am
Speaker 6: which and everything shifted right in that moment. Okay, you know,
Speaker 6: take him home. But I think what happened is that
Speaker 6: Quarrel realized that Brooks, who was a kind of geeky
Speaker 6: outsider type who really didn't didn't want to be a part,
Speaker 6: was very reluctant, didn't have really many connections with the
Speaker 6: other kids, compared to Wayne Henley, who was really a friendly, open,
Speaker 6: approachable kid with a lot of connections in the neighborhood
Speaker 6: among the different groups of boys, and so he figured
Speaker 6: this would be a far better accomplice to me than
Speaker 6: Brooks would be. And so he started a plan to
Speaker 6: figure out his weakness. Is he needs money, and I'll
Speaker 6: approach him that way. And that's essentially what happens with
Speaker 6: these adult predators. They're looking to see what's the kid
Speaker 6: looking for? Is it money? Is it drugs? Is it alcohol?
Speaker 6: Is it stimulation and fun? Are they lonely? Etc. They're
Speaker 6: looking for their vulnerability and then they exploit it and
Speaker 6: they keep the pressure on until they have leveraged that
Speaker 6: person and compromised them to the point where they're too
Speaker 6: scared to act and to tell anybody.
Speaker 5: You also say that it's quite powerful to have these
Speaker 5: Wayne Henley regarded as being recruited into a criminal enterprise
Speaker 5: for his intellect and his abilities.
Speaker 6: I say that in the book it's hard to know
Speaker 6: what was on. I mean, the important thing is quorl
Speaker 6: is dead, so it's hard to know what he was thinking.
Speaker 6: We can only extrapolate from the behaviors that we do know.
Speaker 6: And I want to point out that Wayne Henley is
Speaker 6: the only accomplice to a serial killer who killed the
Speaker 6: serial killer. To end things right, he two friends, Coral
Speaker 6: was about to kill both of them, and also Wayne.
Speaker 6: Wayne talked his way out of being he had been
Speaker 6: bound after he passed out getting high and whatnot. He
Speaker 6: had been bound, and he talked Dean into letting him
Speaker 6: free and said he would help kill the other two.
Speaker 6: But instead he picked up a gun and killed Coral.
Speaker 6: So we have very little Coral was a highly secretive man,
Speaker 6: and even to his accomplices, he would tell them very little.
Speaker 6: He had a private mailbox that as soon as he
Speaker 6: got anything there, he'd tear it up to make sure
Speaker 6: nobody saw it. So it's hard to know what his
Speaker 6: intent and what his thinking process was. But I make
Speaker 6: inferences based on what is known from Brookes and Henley
Speaker 6: and what we do know about adult predators. It's easy
Speaker 6: to put all that together. For example, Wayne said to me,
Speaker 6: the first thing Dean ever said to him was he
Speaker 6: told him a dirty joke. And I said, wow, classic
Speaker 6: predator move. Because if you respond, well, now they know
Speaker 6: you will cross a line. If you don't, they can
Speaker 6: always oh blow it off. Oh just kidding, just kidding
Speaker 6: and golf and that's a classic predator move. So there
Speaker 6: we go. We have Dean Coral doing exactly what we
Speaker 6: know adult predators will often do.
Speaker 5: You talk about, though, the the threat that he had.
Speaker 5: He said that there was a criminal organization in Dallas
Speaker 5: selling boys, buying and selling boys. So what was the
Speaker 5: what was the premise that Henley thought that he was
Speaker 5: joining this organization for and the rule that potentially he
Speaker 5: could have in that organization.
Speaker 6: Okay, so there was that was that evolved that the
Speaker 6: idea that evolved. Initially it was that Coral was selling
Speaker 6: these you know, grabbing these boys and selling them to
Speaker 6: California wealthy people who wanted yard workers and pool boys,
Speaker 6: et cetera. That and that sounded okay, But as Wayne
Speaker 6: was was leveraged into this, it really became much more ominous.
Speaker 6: Now this minded this is the era when The Godfather
Speaker 6: was a big you know, book and movie whatnot, the
Speaker 6: idea of organized crime and and all these assistants and
Speaker 6: whatnot being committed to the to the ideas. So there
Speaker 6: was that sense right off the bat that there was
Speaker 6: this larger organization and it became increasingly more sinister because
Speaker 6: when Wayne did help to bring in a kid that
Speaker 6: they met hitchhiking and then was told afterward, we killed him.
Speaker 6: And now you're implicated, and this organization knows about you,
Speaker 6: so if you try to talk, they're going to find out.
Speaker 6: And so to a fifteen year old kid, what you
Speaker 6: know with limited resources, who's a ninth grade dropout, that
Speaker 6: sounds pretty ominous and scary, and he even thinks about it.
Speaker 6: And then when he brought a friend over one day
Speaker 6: who Coral tackled hog Tide right in front of him
Speaker 6: and then told him he killed him, and you are involved.
Speaker 6: So now so that first guy, the hitchhiker, now your friend.
Speaker 6: You're involved. If you go to the police, you take
Speaker 6: a big risk because this organization is aware of you. Initially,
Speaker 6: Hanley had wanted to wanted the organization aware of him
Speaker 6: because he thought one of his childhood friends had been
Speaker 6: abducted from the neighborhood by Coral, but he didn't know
Speaker 6: that at the time had been abducted a year or
Speaker 6: two before. He thought, if he did well in this organization,
Speaker 6: he could find out where that boy was and bring
Speaker 6: him home, because he had made a promise to that
Speaker 6: boy's mother that he would do everything he could to
Speaker 6: try to do that. So he thought, if he did
Speaker 6: a good job in this organization, he'd find out their
Speaker 6: secrets and he'd be able to go find that boy.
Speaker 6: Did he know that boy was dead and buried in
Speaker 6: Dean's boatshed. So but as Wayne began to think he
Speaker 6: really should go to the police, he thought, what, it's
Speaker 6: just me against this adult predator. Who who are they
Speaker 6: going to believe? It's just me and this man who's
Speaker 6: got it all together, he's got a job, he's got
Speaker 6: you know, why would they believe me? And even if
Speaker 6: they did and they arrested him and he got out,
Speaker 6: then he's going to come after me. Or if he
Speaker 6: didn't get out, then the organization is going to come
Speaker 6: after me for, you know, snitching on one of their people.
Speaker 6: So he was in this kind of no win situation
Speaker 6: in his own imagination. He couldn't and he might have
Speaker 6: been right. Frankly, when we looked at how the police
Speaker 6: actually did handle that lead, they did very little follow
Speaker 6: through on it. Even though there was an organization out
Speaker 6: of Dallas exactly as Dean had described. There really was
Speaker 6: such an organization, but the at least never picked up
Speaker 6: on it. And those who did a little later still
Speaker 6: did not do much with it in terms of connecting
Speaker 6: it to Dean Coral. So Henley might not have been
Speaker 6: wrong about it about his sense of no one's going
Speaker 6: to listen to me, because it's possible they might not
Speaker 6: have because they didn't listen to him. Even when he
Speaker 6: was leading them to where the bodies were buried, they
Speaker 6: still didn't really listen to him.
Speaker 5: Now, you write that Brooks had a room in Coral's
Speaker 5: apartment and he was given this corvette. But Wayne just
Speaker 5: worked at this same job and lived at home, and
Speaker 5: so there was this difference in dynamic. But you chronicle
Speaker 5: that there was Henley having pangs of conscience and trying
Speaker 5: to get away from Dean Coral at some point, and
Speaker 5: you also chronicle discussions that Brooks had with Wayne Henley
Speaker 5: as well.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I my own sense is that Brooks
Speaker 6: was paid each time he brought someone or helped with something.
Speaker 6: He was paid for sexual favors. He was given a
Speaker 6: room where ever Dean lived. He followed Dean from one
Speaker 6: place to another because Dean moved frequently, and he got
Speaker 6: a car for keeping his mouth shut about two kids
Speaker 6: that he knew had been murdered. So there were several
Speaker 6: things that went on once Henley joined. That suggested to
Speaker 6: me because because Wayne said he was paid once for
Speaker 6: the hitchhiker and that after that he didn't get paid.
Speaker 6: He was supplied with liquor and you know, drugs and
Speaker 6: acrylic gas cans that they liked to use to get high.
Speaker 6: He was given that kind of stuff, but he did
Speaker 6: not get a room, and when he was there he
Speaker 6: slept on the floor, so he was treated differently. And
Speaker 6: I even have suggested to him that I think I
Speaker 6: think David continued to be paid, because there was one
Speaker 6: point at which David got married and moved out, and
Speaker 6: he called in when they had a kid there and
Speaker 6: he wanted to know what he was missing. Now this
Speaker 6: is this is a guy who claims he was very
Speaker 6: reluctant to be involved and really never did any of
Speaker 6: the killing. Now he's he didn't need to come over
Speaker 6: that day, but he was afraid and he still had
Speaker 6: a room in Dean's house. He was afraid of missing
Speaker 6: out on something. What could it be? I think it
Speaker 6: was pay I think he thought that he if he
Speaker 6: was part of this, he would be cut in on
Speaker 6: some money. And we do know that when Coral was killed,
Speaker 6: he had two one hundred dollar bills. That was the
Speaker 6: amount he would be paying for boys. So he was
Speaker 6: certainly paying somebody for something. And I think I think
Speaker 6: Brooks always had an edge on Henley in that he
Speaker 6: is getting more favors, he was getting more privileges, and
Speaker 6: he was getting money, and Henley was not.
Speaker 5: You write about some of the people that Wayne Henley
Speaker 5: tries to reach out and talk about his situation too.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's there's a myth that that Wayne was in
Speaker 6: this wholeheartedly and enjoyed the killing and whatnot. But it's
Speaker 6: there's there's clearly we talked to his mother. Also, he
Speaker 6: did several things. He talked to two of his uncles
Speaker 6: to try to tell them what was going on. He
Speaker 6: was scared. He wanted to get out of this, but
Speaker 6: he didn't know how and so, and both of them
Speaker 6: dismissed him as being high and being crazy, and one
Speaker 6: of them sent him home on a bus, get away
Speaker 6: from me. So then he wrote it all out in
Speaker 6: a letter to his mother and he gave it to
Speaker 6: her and she was so disturbed by it. Now, to
Speaker 6: her credit, she did make an appointment with a psychiatrist,
Speaker 6: but that was too late in coming, and then she
Speaker 6: destroyed the letter, but she remembered it, and she just
Speaker 6: didn't understand what he could possibly be talking about because
Speaker 6: there's no chance her some would be involved in something
Speaker 6: like that, and he was drinking a lot, and so
Speaker 6: she just thought maybe it's that. He also tried to
Speaker 6: join the navy as a way to get to get
Speaker 6: away from this, and he was not accepted. He also
Speaker 6: tried to move to another town, and David Brooks told
Speaker 6: him that Dean was looking at his younger brother, so
Speaker 6: he felt like he needed to come back and be
Speaker 6: protective over his brothers to make sure Kral never made
Speaker 6: them into victims. So he did try to get out
Speaker 6: on several occasions. He also did not realize that Coral
Speaker 6: was sometimes acting on his own and grabbing boys and
Speaker 6: killing them. And we have evidence of one kid buried
Speaker 6: in an area not where all the others are buried
Speaker 6: that was clearly a victim of being Coral. So when
Speaker 6: Brooks and Henley thought maybe Coral was backing off, in fact,
Speaker 6: he was just operating as a lone wolf.
Speaker 5: You write about the process that Chral uses to convince
Speaker 5: Wayne Henley to participate in murder and you call it
Speaker 5: the turning point, and also wanting him to engage in
Speaker 5: sadistic behavior and torture along with being coral.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Coral always wanted to partner all the way, and
Speaker 6: I think in his mind he thought if he choreographed
Speaker 6: it well enough psychologically, he'd eventually get that person. I mean,
Speaker 6: that's a complete niavete on his part, that you can
Speaker 6: create a sadist where none exists. But that's apparently what
Speaker 6: he thought. He had wanted David Brooks to do this,
Speaker 6: and Brooks didn't want to. He wanted somebody to sexually
Speaker 6: assault another victim while so they would have two boys
Speaker 6: there and both of them would would torture and assault
Speaker 6: them and murder them together. That was he on several
Speaker 6: occasions had more than one victim in the house, and
Speaker 6: that was just some There was a hard limit there
Speaker 6: for Wayne that I don't want to do this. I don't.
Speaker 6: It's astonishing to me that you even think I would.
Speaker 6: So there were some things that Kral asked of him
Speaker 6: that he just held the line, there's no way, there
Speaker 6: is no way I'm doing this, at least according to him.
Speaker 6: So Coral I think believed, and he had all this
Speaker 6: big stack of books on hypnosis in his closet, so
Speaker 6: I think he thought that he somehow could would get
Speaker 6: Wayne or David into a mindset where they would be
Speaker 6: able to be pushed into doing these kind of double
Speaker 6: criminal acts together. And that, as I understand, it never happened,
Speaker 6: But that was Coral's goal. That was his fantasy.
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Speaker 5: Now, let's continue with the process of grooming this Wayne
Speaker 5: Henley as his ultimate apprentice. But Wayne Hendley has other
Speaker 5: ideas and take us up to the point where it
Speaker 5: all turns to murder. You you write that Dean Coral
Speaker 5: had instructed Wayne that if he were to shoot, and
Speaker 5: he was trying to do you use a pistol. If
Speaker 5: he were to shoot, he would have to continue to
Speaker 5: shoot till that person was on the ground. Yeah.
Speaker 6: I think it's really interesting that Korrel more or less
Speaker 6: set up his own demise in his training program. Essentially,
Speaker 6: he trained Wayne on. He gave maccess to a gun.
Speaker 6: Wayne already knew how to shoot because he had guns
Speaker 6: in his own house, but he gave maccess to this gun.
Speaker 6: He trained him and almost like a little soldier again,
Speaker 6: this is that Godfather era. You're my capo or whatever
Speaker 6: you want to call it. And he trained him and
Speaker 6: then also worked on him mentally because he wanted One
Speaker 6: of the things that Wayne had wanted to be was
Speaker 6: a minister, and he carried a Bible in his pocket.
Speaker 6: And so Coral had his training program had to kind
Speaker 6: of accomplish two things. Was to get Wayne to forget
Speaker 6: about God and morality and whatnot, and to get him
Speaker 6: angry enough where he'd want to really go after these kids.
Speaker 6: So he used Wayne's anger at his father at the
Speaker 6: time his father had abandoned the family, had also abused them,
Speaker 6: had also shot at Wayne a couple of times. So
Speaker 6: Coral used that kind of manipulation and then also had
Speaker 6: the physical training of here's how you do these things,
Speaker 6: and if you're going to shoot someone, you shoot and
Speaker 6: shoot and keep shooting till they hit the ground. And
Speaker 6: that's exactly what Wayne did to Chral eventually, so Coral
Speaker 6: brought about his own demise because I kind of think
Speaker 6: on the morning when Wayne shot him, he was high
Speaker 6: on drugs. He was astonished that Kral was talking about
Speaker 6: killing him, although he'd always thought that's how he'd end up. Eventually,
Speaker 6: Coral would kill him, And I think he had he
Speaker 6: not been trained to keep shooting, he might have shot
Speaker 6: him once and it did hit him, but he kept
Speaker 6: coming and then not knowing what to do, but the
Speaker 6: fact that he had this training, it just automatically kicked
Speaker 6: in and he gets kept shooting till Choral did eventually
Speaker 6: hit the ground.
Speaker 5: You explore all kinds of psychological phenomenonists, but especially the
Speaker 5: temporary psychopath. Tell us about that.
Speaker 6: The temporary psychopath is my own kind of contribution. I
Speaker 6: think I've studied a lot of these team cases where
Speaker 6: somebody is called a compliant, accomplished, somebody who doesn't really
Speaker 6: want to do these things, but they think if they don't,
Speaker 6: they're going to have something to lose, or they've been
Speaker 6: psychologically manipulated to the point where they just submit. So
Speaker 6: we've seen cases in which once the team is stopped,
Speaker 6: usually by some arrest, the compliant person or reluctant person
Speaker 6: looks at what they did and things, how did I
Speaker 6: ever do that? That isn't me, It's not who I
Speaker 6: ever was? How did I manage to be in that
Speaker 6: position and stay in that position? So that's the idea
Speaker 6: that the idea that they're temporary is that once out
Speaker 6: from under the influence of the predator, they can revert
Speaker 6: back to their original moral code and be astonished at
Speaker 6: what they did. And Wayne is not the only one.
Speaker 6: I have a number of cases in the book of
Speaker 6: others who have expressed very similar thoughts, and so I
Speaker 6: think some people are Often they've been in abusive situations
Speaker 6: prior to becoming part of the team, so they're kind
Speaker 6: of used to it. They've calloused themselves, and so the
Speaker 6: predator has a way to keep them calloused, like like
Speaker 6: a psychopath, in getting them to do these horrible things
Speaker 6: and to feel nothing about it under the predator's influence.
Speaker 6: What was interesting about Henley is that he's a reader.
Speaker 6: He's quite the reader, and so he had already read
Speaker 6: quite a bit about through urban fantasy and books like that,
Speaker 6: about people who subvert their own sense of will power
Speaker 6: to a higher authority. But he viewed that that's how
Speaker 6: what he had done with Kral is Charrel's the one
Speaker 6: choreography is Karrel's the one who's making these decisions. This
Speaker 6: is not what I want to do, but I don't
Speaker 6: really have much choice. So all I can do is
Speaker 6: please Dean. That's that's what I want to do. And
Speaker 6: now you know, out from under Dean Coral, he immediately
Speaker 6: began to think, my god, how did I do this?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 6: And to this day now he has never said to me,
Speaker 6: and to his credit, and I want I want to
Speaker 6: find something that mitigates what I did. In fact, some
Speaker 6: of his first words to me were, don't try to
Speaker 6: lessen my responsibility, right, And of course I did eventually,
Speaker 6: because he didn't know anything about the juvenile brain and
Speaker 6: the immaturity that we have found, you know, in recent years,
Speaker 6: and the idea of the temporary psychopath that this is
Speaker 6: not who you essentially are, but who you've been made
Speaker 6: into by a more powerful person, and it is not
Speaker 6: who you are, and you can recover your base by
Speaker 6: getting out from under that influence. So it's my concept,
Speaker 6: but it's based on looking at a number of these teams.
Speaker 5: You talk about explaining the descent into this moral abyss
Speaker 5: and why, and you talk about again the juvenile brain
Speaker 5: and this temporary psychopathy. But people will still have a
Speaker 5: problem with Wayne Henley's participation, despite again the very clear
Speaker 5: evidence that he was remorseful many times along the way.
Speaker 5: Please tell us how, in the exploration and through his insights,
Speaker 5: how he came to be able to accept the more
Speaker 5: sadistic aspects of this murder, and also bringing people he
Speaker 5: knew to Dean Coral's home.
Speaker 6: He did not bring. A number of people were already
Speaker 6: there when he came in. They knew Dean from before.
Speaker 6: The ones he brought were besides the friend, the initial friend,
Speaker 6: Franka Gary, who he did not know. He says, what
Speaker 6: was going to happen to him, You can believe him
Speaker 6: or not believe him. But the ones after that, they
Speaker 6: were already in the house. He didn't bring them himself.
Speaker 6: So again, that's the myth, is that he brought all
Speaker 6: his friends to be killed by Dean Coral, and that
Speaker 6: really isn't sure. In fact, he tried to keep his
Speaker 6: friends away from Dean as much as he could. But
Speaker 6: your question is not really that. It's one of the
Speaker 6: things I struggled with was what to call this kind
Speaker 6: of in between status. He's not a victim, he's a perpetrator,
Speaker 6: but he's not fully responsible like Dean Coral, who is
Speaker 6: the predator who set it all up. Yet he's certainly
Speaker 6: not completely innocent. We have no terminology for someone like that.
Speaker 6: We lump all accomplices together essentially and and viue them
Speaker 6: with responsibility for everything that happened. But I think that's
Speaker 6: really not a fair position, and that's kind of our
Speaker 6: fall for not looking at the nuances of these kinds
Speaker 6: of associations. I think it is difficult because he definitely
Speaker 6: did participate in strangling and shooting other boys. He was
Speaker 6: convicted of six. There certainly were a few more than that.
Speaker 6: He is certainly not responsible for twenty seven murders, which
Speaker 6: Dean Coral was responsible for. David Brooks was in on
Speaker 6: a number of those, but Henley was not. And what
Speaker 6: he says at the end of the book is be
Speaker 6: mad at me for what I did, but don't be
Speaker 6: mad at me for what Chorl did. He Henley did
Speaker 6: not murder twenty seven boys, but still he did murder
Speaker 6: some under Korrel's command. He did bury some, he did
Speaker 6: not go to the police. These are all things that
Speaker 6: he admits he's responsible for. Nevertheless, he was fifteen, sixteen,
Speaker 6: seventeen when all of this was going on, and we
Speaker 6: have to keep that in mind because he was easily
Speaker 6: manipulated by Korl based on his need and his background
Speaker 6: and his lack of understanding. Same with David Brooks. But
Speaker 6: I will say when I look at the two of
Speaker 6: them together and their reactions, and in what we see
Speaker 6: in the statements they gave to the police, I don't
Speaker 6: think Brooks would have ever stopped being Kral. I don't
Speaker 6: think there would have been a time when he even
Speaker 6: though he and Wayne both talked about maybe having to
Speaker 6: kill Kral to save their own lives and to stop this,
Speaker 6: I don't think Brooks on his own would have ever
Speaker 6: done that because I think he had gotten very used
Speaker 6: to this, and there was never a time when he
Speaker 6: came out with a statement about regretting everything. But Wayne
Speaker 6: did right from the get go, and in fact, as
Speaker 6: soon as he killed Coral and the police and turned
Speaker 6: himself in and the police came, he was in the
Speaker 6: back of the police car going to the police station
Speaker 6: when he started to tell them about the fact that
Speaker 6: there were victims buried in a boatshit, and he could
Speaker 6: have said nothing. Had he said nothing, he would have
Speaker 6: been a hero because he saved his two friends, and
Speaker 6: he's shot Dean and self defense and that was all,
Speaker 6: you know, agreed upon that there would be no charges
Speaker 6: for that. If he had said nothing about the burial sites,
Speaker 6: they may never have been found. And even if found
Speaker 6: not connected to him. So I think that's important that
Speaker 6: he immediately initiated I want to tell you where that
Speaker 6: there are victims and where they're buried. I'll show you.
Speaker 6: David Brooks didn't do that. He did. He did accept
Speaker 6: once they they basically told him, we know you're part
Speaker 6: of this, and we have this and this, and we're
Speaker 6: taking Wayne down to the High Island beach. Brooks said, okay,
Speaker 6: I'll go help with that. But initially he basically said no.
Speaker 6: I was just you know, I didn't know about any
Speaker 6: of this. It wasn't me.
Speaker 5: You write about a dramatic scene where they bring Henley
Speaker 5: into a room with David Brooks hoping to hear one
Speaker 5: or the other confess, and Henley's he says, listen, he
Speaker 5: thought the Brooks would use this opportunity to fess up,
Speaker 5: and he said, if you don't, I will put it
Speaker 5: all on you. So he very much right from the
Speaker 5: moment he killed, being coral. He was acting in a
Speaker 5: responsible way and taking responsibility for the murders and his involvement.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he was. And in fact, I think his mother
Speaker 6: might have said that she was trying to get an attorney.
Speaker 6: Berm And said you have to stop talking, and he said,
Speaker 6: I have to get this off my chest. I don't
Speaker 6: care what happens. He was bothered by his conscience, definitely,
Speaker 6: and he wanted to do the right thing. He wanted
Speaker 6: the families to find, you know, where these boys are buried.
Speaker 6: And it's so hard to know how to take this
Speaker 6: all in because clearly he was part of this for
Speaker 6: a year and a half. And yes, and he'll admit,
Speaker 6: I am culpable. It was horrible what I did. But
Speaker 6: on the other hand, he also has had fifty years
Speaker 6: in prison where he's been reflective, remorseful and has tried to,
Speaker 6: you know, do what he could. But I don't know.
Speaker 6: I think people are just gonna have to make up
Speaker 6: their own minds. I know, when I first started writing
Speaker 6: about him, I based a lot of my ideas on
Speaker 6: Jack Olsen's book and on some news reports, and I
Speaker 6: thought of him as this you know, horrid loser teen
Speaker 6: who you know, had been a reprehensible, nasty kid who
Speaker 6: had gleefully been part of grabbing his friends and bringing
Speaker 6: them to quarrel. And that was based on you know,
Speaker 6: those early accounts. The more I looked and realized there
Speaker 6: was in fact, this network that was held over his head,
Speaker 6: and that he had tried to get out of it
Speaker 6: on several occasions in several different ways, and that he
Speaker 6: had tried to protect his brothers and his friends. So
Speaker 6: that gave you a lot more layered sense of him
Speaker 6: that I had had from the early accounts. And the
Speaker 6: more we talked, and I talked him for many, many
Speaker 6: hours over the course of a year, it was clear
Speaker 6: that had he never met Kral, he would have never
Speaker 6: done any of these things. And that is one of
Speaker 6: the true mysteries of the Team Killer association. What is
Speaker 6: the chemistry that turns somebody into a person who's willing
Speaker 6: to kill, who would never have done that had he
Speaker 6: not met he or she not met the predator, who
Speaker 6: was in fact the leader of all of it.
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Speaker 5: these messages.
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Speaker 5: You talk about? That what you just mentioned that he
Speaker 5: otherwise without meeting Dean Coral, he would not have had
Speaker 5: any life of crime. You posit. Let's talk about the
Speaker 5: the threat that was over his head and the criminal
Speaker 5: enterprise that Dean Coral talked about selling and buying boys,
Speaker 5: and you talk about the the not the neglect, but
Speaker 5: the dismissal by police. Eventually about this syndicate, the.
Speaker 6: Whole syndicate idea that a lot of that was my
Speaker 6: co author's work, Tracy Omen. She had been working on
Speaker 6: that as a result of being very involved in the
Speaker 6: John Wayne Gacy case, and she had identified a several
Speaker 6: people in common between Gaycy and Kral. Gaysey took place
Speaker 6: a few years later, but he was certainly aware of
Speaker 6: all the publicity surrounding the Coral case, because when all
Speaker 6: was said and done, the Dean Coral case was the
Speaker 6: largest mass murder on American soil to date, and they
Speaker 6: didn't at that point even have the term serial killer.
Speaker 6: They just called it the Houston mass murders. But twenty
Speaker 6: seven young boys and young men called out of three
Speaker 6: different burial sites was an astonishing piece of news, very
Speaker 6: sensation all the time. So Tracy Omen had done a
Speaker 6: lot of research on John Wayne Gacy, who claimed that
Speaker 6: there also was this network, and she found evidence of it.
Speaker 6: She and her team of journalists found evidence of it,
Speaker 6: and it was tricked to Dallas, as Dean Coral said
Speaker 6: in the early nineteen seventies, and they had also operated
Speaker 6: out of California, and Coral said he had also killed
Speaker 6: in California. He had told this to David Brooks, although
Speaker 6: they weren't able to identify any of his victims there.
Speaker 6: But there was this big operation. It was all over
Speaker 6: the country, it was international. A lot of people were
Speaker 6: in it. Some of the journalists found a list and
Speaker 6: saw the names on it, but police destroyed the list.
Speaker 6: Why would they do such a thing. There was this
Speaker 6: card file of hundreds of cards with names and addresses
Speaker 6: of these men who were interested in getting boys for
Speaker 6: sexual activities, and those card files were destroyed. Why so
Speaker 6: Tracy is the one who writes all of that up.
Speaker 6: She writes about John David Norman, who's kind of referred
Speaker 6: to as the apex Predator, the guy who organizing all
Speaker 6: of this. Now, did Dean Coral know him, We don't know,
Speaker 6: but we do know that two of his victims were
Speaker 6: associated with a guy who was taking pictures of these
Speaker 6: boys for these sexual predator publications. And we know that
Speaker 6: Dean Coral had a picture of a boy in his
Speaker 6: house that ended up being published elsewhere. So these are
Speaker 6: some of the things that we can't definitely prove that
Speaker 6: Coral was part of this network, but the fact that
Speaker 6: he knew it was out of Dallas, which it was,
Speaker 6: and he would use that to leverage both Brooks and Hinley,
Speaker 6: and both of them talked about it to the police.
Speaker 6: That's astonishing to me that they really did not follow
Speaker 6: up on that.
Speaker 5: You're right too, that's interesting that half a dozen boys
Speaker 5: from the same junior high school were missing at the
Speaker 5: same time without police making any kind of connection.
Speaker 6: Well, and actually I just saw Terry Sullivan doing an
Speaker 6: interview who he's the Maternean on John mcgacy case. Was
Speaker 6: a DA he said at that time, and he's talking
Speaker 6: about nineteen seventy eight, So a few years later, we
Speaker 6: just dismissed missing boys as runaways. That was just the
Speaker 6: first thing you did. And every single one of those
Speaker 6: kids that the parents would would try to register as
Speaker 6: missing persons with the police and ask for an investigation,
Speaker 6: every one of them were dismissed as runaways. Even a
Speaker 6: kid in a swimsuit who was just going down to
Speaker 6: the local pool to practice his strokes before his family
Speaker 6: went out of vacation. How could you think this kid who's,
Speaker 6: like I think fourteenth is a runaway. Astonishes me when
Speaker 6: you look at the stories of these victims and the
Speaker 6: way police dismissed them, and then how they tried to
Speaker 6: cover it up later when the citizens got hugely angry,
Speaker 6: as they should have, over this mismanagement of these cases.
Speaker 5: You also chronicle. We don't have time to go into it,
Speaker 5: but the way that Wayne Henley as a juvenile was treated,
Speaker 5: not being able to talk to his mother, repeatedly asked
Speaker 5: for his mother, just the way the police conducted and
Speaker 5: were able to get this confession from him, it was
Speaker 5: its alarming to see that evidence of how they proceeded
Speaker 5: at that time.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that was nineteen seventy three. It would never happen
Speaker 6: like that today. Tried. They did not want him talking
Speaker 6: to attorney, They did not want him talking to his mother,
Speaker 6: They did not want anyone persuading him that maybe he
Speaker 6: shouldn't say so much, and they tapped into his being
Speaker 6: high that morning. He was still coming off. He had
Speaker 6: taken drugs and had plenty to drink the night before,
Speaker 6: partying with his friends at Coral's house. They were taking
Speaker 6: advantage of the fact that he felt that he needed help,
Speaker 6: he needed to talk to someone, and so they just
Speaker 6: tapped into that. Now, I will say, of course the
Speaker 6: police were quite inexperienced with this kind of investigation. Who
Speaker 6: who in the world would ever consider that boys are
Speaker 6: helping to kill other boys on behalf of an adult predator.
Speaker 6: That it was just an unheard of kind of thing.
Speaker 6: So yes, police were inexperienced, but they certainly were also
Speaker 6: very manipulative, exploiting Henley and keeping him isolated from people
Speaker 6: by rights he should have had access to.
Speaker 5: You also write about his situation that he could not
Speaker 5: afford or his family could not afford an attorney, So
Speaker 5: the attorney had an idea for Henley to be able
Speaker 5: to earn that attorney's fees. Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 6: I was so astonished. But this was this was apparently
Speaker 6: not unheard of in these days, was for attorneys to
Speaker 6: make deals with media. They would make deals with their
Speaker 6: clients to have the rights. If the client couldn't pay,
Speaker 6: and it was a big sensational case, the attorney could
Speaker 6: then sell the life story rights to media. So what
Speaker 6: Wayne didn't understand, which in still to this even until
Speaker 6: I explained to him, here's an attorney who's not going
Speaker 6: to sell anything if if you're found innocent, that's the
Speaker 6: whole case is going to go away. He's only going
Speaker 6: to get money from media if you are found guilty.
Speaker 6: What attorney He's compromised from the get go. And also
Speaker 6: this particular attorney was an expert on appeals, so he
Speaker 6: wouldn't even put on a case. He spent no money
Speaker 6: on witnesses on Wayne's behalf. Wayne was not allowed to
Speaker 6: speak at all, though he wanted to. But he was
Speaker 6: a kid. He didn't know what rights he had and
Speaker 6: what he should or shouldn't do. Uh, And then he
Speaker 6: had there were three attorneys who are all fighting amongst
Speaker 6: themselves as to how best to present this and U
Speaker 6: but the attorney who who dealt with him by saying,
Speaker 6: I'm going to I'm gonna pay, I'm going to sell
Speaker 6: your life rights. And there was one person, one interviewer
Speaker 6: that right after Wayne was convicted, the attorney took him
Speaker 6: to this this particular journalist and said, tell him everything.
Speaker 6: Make it like, oh my god, what kind of attorney
Speaker 6: is that yah and wanted Wayne to really seem like
Speaker 6: like this, you know, awful person. And that journalist obliged
Speaker 6: because he he really put all the words on him
Speaker 6: that I think he could find. And that was a
Speaker 6: you know, a big publication that is all and how
Speaker 6: we view Wayne Henley. But that had to do a
Speaker 6: lot with the attorney and his manipulation, and that is
Speaker 6: now dead. I mean, there's no recourse. But I think
Speaker 6: his strategy was appalling.
Speaker 5: Oh absolutely, you got a good opportunity to speak to
Speaker 5: the current Wayne Henley and you as evidence that he
Speaker 5: would have never maybe had a life of crime. Whatsoever
Speaker 5: is his record behind bars? Tell us about parole and
Speaker 5: Wayne Henley behind bars today?
Speaker 6: So in Texas with this case, he and Brooks both
Speaker 6: came up for parole on a number of occasions, but
Speaker 6: Wayne was told this is just a formality because we
Speaker 6: have to do it. You're never getting out. And it
Speaker 6: looks to be true because he's been in there for
Speaker 6: fifty years. David Brooks died from COVID a couple of
Speaker 6: years ago, but I know Wayne is coming up for
Speaker 6: another pearle hearing, maybe twenty twenty five. I'm not sure
Speaker 6: of that. You know, he actually was told by one
Speaker 6: of the people on a pro board, you need to
Speaker 6: get people to know who you are, because otherwise all
Speaker 6: they're going to think is you know what they read
Speaker 6: in the news and whatnot. You need to show yourself.
Speaker 6: And when he tried to do that with some media outlets,
Speaker 6: they would interview him and then twist it. Like Montel Williams.
Speaker 6: I remember this so well. He was going to have
Speaker 6: this exclusive interview with Wayne Henley and he I think
Speaker 6: clipped a few quotes from him and then said that
Speaker 6: interview is just so horrific, I can't even I can't
Speaker 6: even put it on. So, you know, I was actually
Speaker 6: surprised that he trusted me after some of the things
Speaker 6: that had happened to him from me. Yeah, I was
Speaker 6: very surprised that he did well.
Speaker 5: You have credibility compared to who you just mentioned. And
Speaker 5: you as you say that with this this the true
Speaker 5: Story chronicle, do you think that they're despite all of
Speaker 5: the previous information supposedly that people had about Wayne Henley
Speaker 5: and these crimes. Do you think there will be any
Speaker 5: sympathy with this true story now chronicled in this book
Speaker 5: The Serial Killers Apprentice.
Speaker 6: I think there's going to be both animosity from people
Speaker 6: who want to retain the old narrative and hold him
Speaker 6: one hundred percent responsible, and I think there's going to
Speaker 6: be sympathy from people who thought they knew and now
Speaker 6: are willing to reconsider their position like I did. And
Speaker 6: I think there are already people who've long been sympathetic
Speaker 6: to Wayne, have written to him, have talked to him,
Speaker 6: who will welcome this account. So I think I'm going
Speaker 6: to get a range from you know, probably hate mail,
Speaker 6: what not to wo, to people thanking me. I'll get
Speaker 6: that full range of responses.
Speaker 5: And you you had a goal when you started this project.
Speaker 5: You probably had an idea where you might end up.
Speaker 5: Where did you find yourself? Where did you land in
Speaker 5: terms of your overall perspective about this phenomena The Apprentice, Well, I.
Speaker 6: Already knew about Tracy's work, so I knew that we
Speaker 6: had a bigger story. I already knew that Wayne was
Speaker 6: a reflective and intelligent guys. Absolutely, he's going to be
Speaker 6: quite different than Dennis Rader, for example. But where it
Speaker 6: was going to go, I really didn't know. I honestly
Speaker 6: didn't know, and I like to work that way. I
Speaker 6: want I want the person to emerge to me without
Speaker 6: my filters on them. That's how I really work with anybody.
Speaker 6: So I really couldn't anticipate where it was going to go.
Speaker 5: I want to applaud you for this another groundbreaking psychological
Speaker 5: examination of this incredible story. The serial Killers Apprentice, the
Speaker 5: true story of how Houston's deadliest murderer turned a kid
Speaker 5: into a killing machine. For those people that might want
Speaker 5: to look at your other work and find out more
Speaker 5: about this, can you refer us to a website and
Speaker 5: any social media you do? Well?
Speaker 6: Actually, Facebook is probably the best. I have a ban
Speaker 6: Facebook page and a regular Facebook page. My website is
Speaker 6: released strictly for the novel series I'm writing, so it
Speaker 6: doesn't so just too many I have seventy two books.
Speaker 6: I can't keep up with all that stuff on my website,
Speaker 6: so it's better, I think, to find me on Facebook,
Speaker 6: and most of my books are on the various online
Speaker 6: distributors Amazon and Barnes and Noble whatnot.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for this interview. Catherine Ramsland The
Speaker 5: serial Killer's Apprentice, the true story of how Houston's deadliest
Speaker 5: murderer turned a kid into a killing machine. Thank you
Speaker 5: so much for this interview, and you have a great evening,
Speaker 5: and good night, good night.