WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.279 --> 00:00:13.960 Special Operations Cobert Spiona The Team House with your hosts 2 00:00:14.839 --> 00:00:17.640 Jack Murphy and David Park. 3 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:25.079 Hey, everyone, this is episode three hundred and forty five 4 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:27.879 of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy and I'm here 5 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:31.440 with our guest today, Kevin McDonald. He's the author of 6 00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:36.600 A Life Less Ordinary. Kevin served in the Irish Ranger 7 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:41.119 Wing and then continued with his military career, involved in 8 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:44.119 a lot of peacekeeping operations and the goal on Heights 9 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:49.200 in Lebanon and then later in places in Africa, and 10 00:00:49.240 --> 00:01:00.320 he's joining us tonight from the warm Ish South Sudan. Yeah, 11 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:04.519 so we you know, thank you for joining us. 12 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:04.920 Kevin. 13 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:07.799 You're the first Irish Ranger we've had on the show 14 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:09.760 and I'm excited to do this interview with you. 15 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:13.239 I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me. 16 00:01:13.959 --> 00:01:14.239 Kevin. 17 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:16.439 You'd mentioned that you'd like to throw out a little 18 00:01:16.439 --> 00:01:17.959 disclaimer before we get started. 19 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.079 Yeah. I think it's important by nature of the fact 20 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:25.120 that what would probably most like to be discussing it is, 21 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:27.319 first of all, that I don't want anyone to think 22 00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:30.959 that any views I may express can be seen as 23 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:33.359 the views of retired senior officer in the Irish Defense 24 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:38.079 forces through my personal views, and likewise, any of the 25 00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:40.640 views I express cannot be construed or seen as the 26 00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:45.040 views of someone who's working in the United Nations. These 27 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:49.079 are entirely my personal views, and you know, please take 28 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:53.280 them at that value. 29 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:54.079 Thank you, Kevin. 30 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:57.760 So let's start off talking a little bit about growing 31 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:01.400 up in Ireland. And you had some pretty amusing stories 32 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:05.400 about being a young man and getting into some things, 33 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:08.039 including the military, way younger than you should have. 34 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:15.879 So yeah, in in the in the Irish Defense Forces, 35 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:23.520 we have I think called the Army Reserve, which it's 36 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:27.759 probably not anything like your National Guard work, but you 37 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:30.120 will do maybe two or three weekends training a month 38 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:34.240 and then every summer two or three week military training camp. 39 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:38.120 And the town I grew up in there. 40 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:42.319 Was a I suppose the equivalent of a National Guard barracks. 41 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:45.400 So it wasn't it wasn't a permanent military post, but 42 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.479 but there was. It was this place for for our reserve. 43 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:50.520 And one of the units that was in it was 44 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:57.240 a cavalry unit and they had armored cars, motorbikes and 45 00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:00.199 all that sort of stuff. And and to be a 46 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:03.240 trooper in a cagory unit you had to be able 47 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:05.919 to operate the radios of an armored car, drive an 48 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:08.759 armor car, and operate the guns of an armored car. 49 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:12.400 So when I was in school and there was a 50 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:14.759 small range in the barracks and you could hear the gunfire, 51 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:17.159 and then during the summer you see these guys going 52 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:21.319 out on exercises, and it was the only place I 53 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:24.599 wanted to be. So I let's just say I was 54 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:26.960 creative with my birth certificate. Because we're supposed to be 55 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:32.000 seventeen before you joined. I think I was just over fourteen, 56 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:35.719 because I know I had a military license to drive 57 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:39.960 land rovers, trucks and motorbikes before it was legally old 58 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:45.879 enough to drive on the road. But it was Marcus, 59 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:50.840 and you know, it was a great opportunity for young 60 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:53.719 people like myself to get a sense of you know, 61 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:59.319 duty responsibility. Plus we got paid when we're on our 62 00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:02.919 two week camp. But it was a nice, nice bit 63 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:05.560 of money at the time. So I spent seven years 64 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:09.639 with the Reserve before I joined the Permanent Defense Forces. 65 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:12.479 The other thing that you had going on around this 66 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:16.879 timeframe was you worked at a car dealership selling cars 67 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:18.439 before you were old enough to drive. 68 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:22.399 Well, I didn't exactly. Wasn't a salesman. 69 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:24.519 What I did was would say, if you had bought 70 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:28.079 a new forward and the shock ups orber went, you 71 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:30.720 bring it back to the garage and then I would 72 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:34.680 make it cleim on forard the for for this Ford 73 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:36.160 garage to recoop the costs. 74 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:39.399 So I was a warranty assessor in a four garage. 75 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:44.120 But although I did manage to buy a few cars 76 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:47.240 and sell them privately before it was old enough to 77 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:49.920 drive and before I had insurance, But that was that 78 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:52.279 was like a like a knicker, as we'd say in Ireland. 79 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:54.160 That was like something on the side. 80 00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:58.079 And then I mean it sounds like you were, you know, 81 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:00.240 getting into the army, having a hell of a lot 82 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:02.800 of fun as a young guy. And you even got 83 00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:06.399 to play a soldier in a historical war film that 84 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:10.439 was made you want to tell any amusing stories about that. 85 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:12.079 You had a couple in there that I thought were 86 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:12.600 pretty good. 87 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:14.480 Yeah, so there was. 88 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.879 There was a book written about the seventeen ninety eight 89 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:26.160 I suppose French invasion of Ireland to support the Catholics 90 00:05:26.199 --> 00:05:33.959 against the excuse me, against the British army, and they 91 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:35.879 landed in the West coast of Ireland at a very 92 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:41.240 obscure spot, and then they were quite successful initially, and 93 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:43.720 they were marching on the town where I was born, 94 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:47.319 which is a town called castle Bar, and the British 95 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:50.759 Army had deployed on the route they expected them to take, 96 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:53.600 but the French and the Irish kind of come in 97 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:56.920 from the flank and there was a bit of a 98 00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:00.519 route and the British soldiers ran away. Came known as 99 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:04.240 the Races of Castle Bar, which was the last victory 100 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:06.040 that the French and Irish had because a few weeks 101 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:08.120 later they were destroyed in the Battle of Battle of 102 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:12.439 Them Up. But anyway, our National TV company decided that 103 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:17.160 they would make a film of this, and naturally enough, 104 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:21.800 for all the military battles, it was much easier to 105 00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:24.040 use the likes of us and the reserve that at 106 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:26.800 least knew how to march and carry a weapon and 107 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:32.079 that sort of stuff. But they had contacted a crowd 108 00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:34.920 of re enactors from the UK and we were working 109 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:37.720 with genuine muskets and genuine cannons. 110 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:46.519 But the ironically the British Army units that. 111 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:50.399 My guys, my friends of mine were tasked with being 112 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:54.240 part of was a unit called Fraser's Fencibles, which was 113 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:58.000 a Scottish regiend. So we had red coats and kills 114 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:01.160 and for some reason I was put in charge so 115 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:05.560 either sword and when we were filming the scene for 116 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:09.399 the Races of Castle Bar, the idea was that there 117 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:13.759 was like a valley like that and we would we're 118 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:16.720 supposed to march down, line up in a straight line, 119 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:20.040 and then over the following hill would come these hordes 120 00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:23.759 of Irish peasants and French soldiers. And I was to 121 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:26.639 give the order to fire a volley and then slowly 122 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:29.839 started cheating backwards. And this guy was to die here, 123 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:32.160 and this guy was to die here, and and that 124 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:34.560 was kind of the plan. And there was a small 125 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:38.720 little railway for the TV camera which would be on 126 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:42.839 my right hand side. So it kind of went started 127 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:46.240 according to plan, as most things to do. But however, 128 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:49.319 the the Irish peasants and the French soldiers were a 129 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:53.000 bit more enthusiastic and attacking us than let's say, we 130 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:56.040 weren't expecting. And one of the key characters in the 131 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:59.279 film it was a famous Irish actor and he was 132 00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:02.519 playing the post the part of an Irish poet who 133 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:05.600 had gathered a load of supporters to support the French. 134 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:09.040 And he had a twelve foot pike with a big 135 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:13.519 sharp pointed thing at the end, so he was full 136 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:16.720 of the joys of getting into his role. And I'm 137 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:19.920 here with like a three foot sword, and this wasn't scripted, 138 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:23.000 This wasn't supposed to happen. But he started jabbing at 139 00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:25.720 me with the sword with the pike, and I was 140 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:29.720 trying to sword fight with the pike with a three 141 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:34.120 foot sword, which wasn't exactly a very even contest, but 142 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:38.279 I was conscious of on my right was the camera 143 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:41.399 on the little railway line film and all of this. 144 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:46.240 So every time he jabbed me, I kind of put 145 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:49.039 up my sword like that and I'd say, sorry, I 146 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:51.759 don't know if I can use language like that, okay, 147 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:56.320 But and he was like, this is going on for 148 00:08:56.360 --> 00:08:59.399 a good while, and eventually, will you stop where you're 149 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:02.279 fucking killed me? So I had to die before it 150 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:07.879 was actually killed. Was enthusiastic about it, but that that 151 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:12.279 was great time because we were called up on military service, 152 00:09:12.279 --> 00:09:14.960 so we were getting paid by the army, and the 153 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:19.240 film company was payless as well, so like and and 154 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:23.000 the catering on the on the site was really good. 155 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:25.399 Plus it was near an old town that had a 156 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:28.360 few nice bars, so anytime there was a break in filming, 157 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:31.600 you could have a British soldier, a French soldier, an 158 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:35.600 Irish presidant and a Scottish soldier forcing get us into 159 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:39.039 us and eventually the director come on quick, you're needed back. 160 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:41.200 But it was great, it was really good. 161 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:45.080 So then tell us about sort of your first exposure 162 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:47.759 to the Irish Ranger Regiment and and kind of how 163 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:49.440 this idea came to mind for you. 164 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.399 Okay, so this this was unusual because in that reserve 165 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:58.279 unit I was in for a short space of time 166 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:06.200 or commanding officer, he was eventually moved to form the 167 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:09.159 Army Range Wing, which is our for your visitor or 168 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:14.000 for your listeners, this is our soft unit. And this 169 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:17.879 would have been in nineteen three or eighty four or 170 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:21.600 something like that. So the units had just been formed, 171 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:27.000 and he decided he'd he'd run a course of experienced 172 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:31.080 NCOs and officers that would be after the forward course 173 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:34.759 would be judged suitable if they passed, to instruct on 174 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:41.120 selection for special forces. So not too far away from 175 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:44.120 from the town where I was living. It's one of 176 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:49.240 there's a vast expanse of open moorland and mountains. It's 177 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:51.840 probably the last place in Ireland that's still kind of 178 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:57.840 really desolate and uninhabited. So he decided that he would 179 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:06.080 use us our unit as the story that the scenario 180 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.759 was that these would be range instructors were a sort 181 00:11:10.759 --> 00:11:13.399 of a breakaway unit from the Irish Army and they 182 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:18.039 were operating independently and we had to go and find them. 183 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:21.080 So we were patrolling by day and we had set 184 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:23.480 up the sort of a base camp in the woods. 185 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:25.000 You know, we hadn't a clue how. 186 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:27.360 To set up a proper base camp, but we were 187 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:28.879 looking for them and they were looking for us. 188 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:33.240 And this went on for nearly a week. 189 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.320 And we've been kind of brief that you know, nothing, 190 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:41.399 nothing will happen to you naturally. And then one afternoon 191 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:44.480 there was about six stun grenads can fly it into 192 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:47.000 our little camp and we've never seen or heard stunge 193 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:50.399 grenades before, and you know, they're quite impressive if they 194 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:55.720 haven't experienced them. But I hid under the truck and 195 00:11:55.799 --> 00:12:00.799 all the guys were tied up and question and you know, 196 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:03.120 and we were told you know, give your name, rank 197 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:06.480 and serious number as usual, but of course these guys 198 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:08.440 wanted a bit more information as to who we were 199 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:09.840 and who was our boss. 200 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:11.159 And all that kind of stuff. 201 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:15.200 So I was trying to figure out the inner patrolling 202 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:18.080 of these guys and how it could make my escape 203 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:22.120 during darkness. And the next thing, my two legs were 204 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:24.480 pulled out from from behind me, dragged out from one 205 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:26.960 to the truck, thrown into a stream. 206 00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:29.000 And who are you and what are you doing? 207 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:33.320 And blah blah blah. And then about maybe twenty minutes later, 208 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:37.440 the commanding officer of the Army Arrangement came in and 209 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:41.240 said index, and these guys changed from being like raven 210 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:43.200 lunatics to hey, how's it going? 211 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:45.879 It was amazing. 212 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:50.399 But subsequently, when I joined the unit, I was on 213 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:54.039 my own range instructor's course, and I remember going through 214 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:56.639 the same forest at night. We were heading for a 215 00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:01.559 naval pickup off the coast, and I was going Jesus, 216 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:03.759 only about four years I was here. I wasn't even 217 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:06.200 I was in the reserve, and I'm on the same place, 218 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:09.039 on the same type of course that we were interacting 219 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.279 with back then. So yeah, that was that was a bit, 220 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:18.879 and we were the first Irish Army unit, whether permanent 221 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:23.440 or whatever, to train with the airw So it was, 222 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:25.000 it was, it was a huge honor for us. And 223 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:27.879 obviously after I having experienced that, there was only a 224 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:30.039 month less I was going when I got a chance, 225 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:31.879 and that was to go for selection. 226 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:33.919 And correct me if I'm wrong. 227 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:37.039 But before you went to selection, you did your first 228 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:38.879 trip over to Lebanon right in eighty four. 229 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:45.960 Yeah, so I you can't sort of enlist in special Forces, 230 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:47.720 I'm sure like yourself, you have to kind of go 231 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:51.559 through regular training and ideally have an overseas trip your 232 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:52.399 under your belt. 233 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:55.440 So I did. 234 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:59.080 I joined an Infantsy battalion up on the border, and 235 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:03.720 after basic training, which is six weeks, then there's two 236 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:05.960 to three star training, which is like another eight weeks, 237 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:10.200 you're like a fully qualified private. And I was assigned 238 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:15.559 to support company and we had, you know, the fifty 239 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:22.240 canals and eighty one millimeter marchers, and I remember before 240 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:24.799 we get around to an overseas there's just a funny 241 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:28.000 incident took place we were training before we fired live 242 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.759 rounds from the eighty ones we were training, there was 243 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:34.840 a big field in front of our base, and we 244 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:37.279 had these inert rounds, but you still put the charges 245 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:39.720 over the fins, so they go about three hundred feet 246 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:43.039 in the year and maybe one hundred and fifty meters out. 247 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:49.120 So we've fired maybe three bombs from two guns. But 248 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:51.639 then you'll spend probably an hour trying to find because 249 00:14:51.679 --> 00:14:54.120 when they hit the ground, they got down about a foot. 250 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:59.840 So at that time in Ireland there was a sort 251 00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:04.600 of a disciplined reaction called confined to barracks, so we 252 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:07.600 say if you were laid for parade or whatever. So 253 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:10.600 this guy was on what we call a CB, so 254 00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:12.000 therefore he's liable. 255 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:12.799 To be tasked with anything. 256 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.879 So one of our instructors, okay, private, come over here, 257 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:21.960 get a few twigs, stand under that tree, and every 258 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:26.080 time a bomb ron out and basically which you know, 259 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:29.639 sounded great, And of course this guy started getting brave 260 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:33.240 and at one stage, just as the bombs went off, 261 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:36.519 he ran out into the field like that. The next thing, 262 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:40.120 there's two eighty one minute meter bombs coming down. Not 263 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:45.080 like he would have been killstone dead. Yeah, anyway, I digress, 264 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:47.519 but yeah, I went overseas. I was bout a year 265 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:51.840 in the army, went overseas as a private to Lebanon. 266 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:57.399 In nineteen eighty four. I was promoted acting corporate after 267 00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:03.720 the month stage the the Israelis we were withdrawing from 268 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:08.960 their siege of Rouge, so it was it was tense enough. 269 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:13.360 There was a lot of stuff happening. And remember we 270 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:17.799 we would monitor all their patrols, which we were obliged 271 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:18.720 to do, and. 272 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:23.039 Some of us got the great idea that we would 273 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:24.080 we would talk in. 274 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:29.240 Gaelic like would say on on on the on the radio, 275 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:33.519 fake side in the side, jurish in or take bal 276 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:36.279 like look at those soldiers beside the town. 277 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:41.039 And we thought this was great. You know. To the 278 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:42.960 one stage, this this. 279 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:45.120 Broad Irish accident came up on the net and I 280 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:48.360 didn't recognize it and it goes bucally a via so 281 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:52.879 lads don't be talking Irish. So it was an Irish 282 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:57.399 Jew who was doing his national service in Israel monitoring 283 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:01.960 the communications of the Irish. We thought this was well, 284 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:04.519 could kind of understand it. But I remember talking to 285 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:07.200 a few Swedes and Finns and they were experiencing the 286 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:11.960 same thing. It was finished shows and Norwegian Jews specifically 287 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:17.759 listening on the communication shatter. So yeah, that was yeah, 288 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:20.240 that was kind of interesting. 289 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:24.599 Hey, guys, our show is sponsored by ghost bed Check 290 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:28.640 them out please to make awesome mattresses, awesome pillows, awesome betting. 291 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:33.359 Ghostpread provides high quality, is super comfortable, award winning mattresses 292 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:36.440 crafted in the US and Canada. Did you know that 293 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:39.079 sixty percent of US adults report being too hot when 294 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:42.240 they're trying to sleep. 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I love ghost Sped. 335 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:50.079 Thanks guys. 336 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.319 So talk to us about, you know, getting back home 337 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:57.759 and applying for the Irish Ranger Wing and what the 338 00:19:57.799 --> 00:19:59.160 selection process was like. 339 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:03.400 Well, actually I should have said before I went overseas. 340 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:09.000 At that stage, each each brigade, although they were known 341 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.640 as commands at the time, but each brigade was entitled 342 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:16.119 to run what they call a basic Ranger course. So 343 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:19.960 it's four weeks and if you pass it, you can 344 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:24.359 wear the Ranger tab. But we'll say if you're in 345 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:26.279 the universe, there's a Ranger tab with a red background. 346 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:29.079 This was just like a standard Ranger tab. So I 347 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:32.519 had actually I had completed that before I went overseas, 348 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.599 so I had some idea of a what to expect 349 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:36.559 and be what my. 350 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:39.160 Capabilities were. 351 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.279 So I went down on selection, and at the time 352 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:49.960 not every commanding officer would recommend you for selection because 353 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:53.440 generally the guys going for selection were probably some of 354 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.240 his best troops and he was being left with the 355 00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:58.039 problem children, shall we say. 356 00:20:59.519 --> 00:20:59.680 So? 357 00:21:01.079 --> 00:21:05.400 The Chief of Staff issuld have directed that anyone that 358 00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:10.039 applied for selection, their application had to reach the OC 359 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:13.720 Army range Wing. Even if it was a non recommendation, 360 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:14.960 he still had to get it and he would just 361 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.319 pull them in. So I went to you. We started 362 00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:24.480 on a Sunday afternoon with about fifty eight guys. It 363 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:28.920 was eleven gone by the next morning, and four weeks 364 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:33.920 later we finished with I think we finished with twelve, 365 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.400 of which ten of us were taken in, so fairly 366 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:39.599 high attrition rate. 367 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:43.680 But it was great. I spent four very good. 368 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:47.279 Very interesting, very tough years there and I'm still friends with, 369 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:49.839 you know, the guys that I had trained with and 370 00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:51.279 guys I subsequently trained. 371 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:57.440 The selection course must have been and I just imagined 372 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:01.519 the weather in Ireland, especially during the winter, does that 373 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:03.839 have any sort of impact on that attrition rate? 374 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:09.880 It does, you And certainly the standard equipment that we 375 00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:13.240 were issued with at the time was really bad, Like 376 00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:15.720 you know, that the kind of plastic rain gear that 377 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:18.440 squeaks and it has no breed ability. 378 00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:21.079 We'd standard issue boots. 379 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:23.160 It was not like an intervie unit that I started 380 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:26.079 wording Gartex rain gear and Gartex boots and stuff like that. 381 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:31.839 But and plus we were using at that stage the 382 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:36.519 I don't know if you're familiar with the British webbing, 383 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:39.240 but there's I think called the fifty eight nineteen fifty 384 00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:43.160 eight pattern webbing. And your pack was about sort of 385 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:46.680 that size. By that and into that you had to 386 00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:49.880 put everything you know you did then pourchas for magazines 387 00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:53.759 and all, but they certainly weren't designed for holding a 388 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.519 lot of gear for was a week out in the 389 00:22:55.519 --> 00:23:03.359 mountains or whatever. But I know it was good. It 390 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:09.599 was physically very tough. But what I found, and subsequhen 391 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:15.119 I started to instruct on selection courses myself that if 392 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:17.240 you're not prepared mentally, it doesn't matter how fit you are. 393 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:21.839 If if if your head starts going, then it's very 394 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:25.119 easy to start coming up with with injuries, if you 395 00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:28.720 know what I mean, Because I know certainly when subsequently 396 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:32.880 when I used to instruct on courses, I tended to 397 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.440 be the guy that didn't shout too much, but when 398 00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:37.680 I did to kind of knew it was a series. 399 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:39.200 But I often found. 400 00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:41.559 You know, if if you if there was what you 401 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:44.079 said it was an inspection and you came up behind 402 00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:47.000 someone and you just whispered in his ear should I 403 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:50.960 be seeing this ship? That sometimes had a more devastating 404 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:52.799 effect than if I stood in front of him and 405 00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:54.839 did a complete ballakan of them. 406 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:58.200 You know it, and you know yourself. 407 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:01.359 We play with people's minds when we're there suitability for 408 00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:01.920 for SEFF. 409 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:05.240 So yeah, it was good. 410 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:11.799 And then there was a pretty extensive training course after 411 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:16.559 you finished selection, both doing the sub surface stuff and 412 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:19.559 parachute course all that. I mean, can you talk us 413 00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:20.400 through a little bit of that? 414 00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:24.920 Okay, So first of all, everyone in the unit has 415 00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:30.519 to be jump qualified, started line qualified, and so when 416 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:33.519 the course came up, the next course that came up, 417 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:37.839 which I would have been going on, I was on 418 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:40.920 leave when it was started. It was a three week course. 419 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:43.759 It was the two week or three weeks relatively short. 420 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:48.839 But I came back and I had already privately done 421 00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:52.839 a jump in the UK, so they recognized some experience. 422 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:54.400 So I was brought in for the last week of 423 00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:57.599 the course and you have to five jumps to get 424 00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:04.759 your your your wings. So I did the first three 425 00:25:04.839 --> 00:25:09.559 or four jumps, and there was two expressions that the 426 00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:13.119 that the jump master. Essentially it was an assess in 427 00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:16.839 the plane and you had to sit in the doorway 428 00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:20.079 and then when the pilot throttled back a bit, you 429 00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:22.680 reached out onto the strut and grabbed the handle and 430 00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:25.599 then stood out onto a plate above the wheel, and 431 00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:29.680 then off he went. But the jump masters they had 432 00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:33.119 two terms which I became quite familiar with. One was 433 00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:37.039 AOT arse over tit and the other was BOS about 434 00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:42.200 a shite. So the wings ceremony was on a Friday 435 00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.640 at lunchtime and the wings had picked up. So the 436 00:25:46.039 --> 00:25:48.279 chief instructor said to one of the jump masters, they said, 437 00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:53.599 what's what's Mark like when he's jumping, And he said 438 00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:57.319 he's either AOT or bos exiting the plane. But Kenny 439 00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:01.200 land on chees You can land, no no problem. So anyway, 440 00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:06.920 the small little military airstrip was not alone beside the 441 00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:10.200 main Dublin Belfast railway line, but on the other side 442 00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:12.119 of the main Dublin Belfast railway line. 443 00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:14.559 It was the sea. 444 00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.279 Anyway, they took a chance, and because I was the 445 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:20.759 only one to get that needed the fifth jump to 446 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:24.720 have the graduation ceremony, so they dropped me. 447 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:28.240 I'm not sure how far over the sea. So I'm 448 00:26:28.279 --> 00:26:29.240 sort of running. 449 00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:31.680 With the wind, and then in the middle of this 450 00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:36.599 huge grass airfield, there was obviously the the tarmac had 451 00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:40.319 a runway, and the next thing, I thought, right, I'm 452 00:26:40.359 --> 00:26:43.160 going to hit the run by. So I turned back 453 00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:46.559 into the wind, then ran with the wind and ended 454 00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:50.240 up on the ground like a bag of cement. And 455 00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:52.839 I'm lying on the ground going yes, yes, I got 456 00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:57.200 my wings out. The shoot inflated. I'm being pulled down 457 00:26:57.240 --> 00:26:59.440 the field. I took it up and run around and 458 00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:02.279 jump on it. I didn't mind. I got my wings 459 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:05.759 and never darkened the door of parachuting again. Because my 460 00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:08.839 speciality was was diving and fast boats and ribs and 461 00:27:08.839 --> 00:27:12.599 stuff like that. But it was well, I didn't have 462 00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:14.119 a choice. Everyone had to do it, so I didn't 463 00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:18.079 have a choice. But yeah, my home was underwater rather 464 00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:19.079 than any place else. 465 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:23.440 It's the uh yeah, the dive course that you went 466 00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:27.240 through sounded pretty hillacious. You're talking about how like you 467 00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:30.400 guys had to like pull yourselves over a guide rope 468 00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:31.839 at the bottom of this. 469 00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.680 The We were trained by the Irish Navy and they 470 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:41.039 trained their divers in six weeks and they have to 471 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:45.240 have three and a half thousand minutes down. But they 472 00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:48.000 decided that they would train us in three weeks. But 473 00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:49.640 we still have tod three and a half minutes down. 474 00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:53.400 So we used to start in the morning. There's an 475 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:56.759 Irish Navy term called an awkward, which essentially is a 476 00:27:56.799 --> 00:27:59.640 fast stress. So we say, if if something wraps around 477 00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:01.039 the ships prop and you have to get in the 478 00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:04.960 water quickly, So what about seven o'clock on a winter's morning. 479 00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:08.119 We'd be in the little dives bit with just our 480 00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.000 summoned out and all your gear laid out, and the 481 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:13.079 guy would blow the whistle and we'd two and a 482 00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:17.319 half minutes had everything. And this was all like neoprene 483 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:21.240 long John's neoprene top, neopren boogies, all that kind of stuff. 484 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:24.119 And there was I think eight of us on the course, 485 00:28:24.920 --> 00:28:27.839 and invariably someone would miss the two and a half 486 00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:32.240 minute test time, so we would have to get out, 487 00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:35.799 run to the end of a fifty meter pier, jump 488 00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:37.519 into the tide and swim back. 489 00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:41.640 This is like seven thirty of winter's. 490 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:46.759 Morning into the Irish Sea or the Atlantic, I should say. 491 00:28:46.839 --> 00:28:49.920 But it certainly did wonderus for your front crawl, I 492 00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.400 can tell you that. But to build up what they 493 00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:55.759 call your insurance, in other words, the amount of time 494 00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:58.759 that you can get from a single what we was 495 00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:02.559 to call a set, but like a bottle, we had 496 00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.440 to do these circuits and what was known as a jackstay. 497 00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:08.559 So it's a hawser cable and it might go out 498 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:12.799 for I don't know, one hundred and fifty meters and 499 00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:14.319 then it would hit a kind of a weight, and 500 00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:15.880 then you go this way and then come back. 501 00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:18.839 And all at. 502 00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:23.880 The time, all navy diving, you weren't just buddied, but 503 00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:27.759 you were physically buddied. So on my right arm, i'd 504 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:29.960 have a thing tied on and I'd have a meter 505 00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:33.640 of cord with a clip, and my body on his 506 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:35.920 left arm would have the same, so that even if 507 00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:41.599 you're in black visibility excuse me, you can send signals 508 00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:46.319 through tugs and pulls, given a rough idea of what 509 00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:51.279 was going on. And of course, because we were soft, 510 00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:54.400 they wouldn't let us wear neoprene gloves. 511 00:29:55.480 --> 00:29:56.319 So generally what had. 512 00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:58.519 Happened is one guy would be on the jackstay and 513 00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:01.480 the other guy would be two meters above, still connected. 514 00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:03.400 Because when you're on the jack stade you can see 515 00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:05.759 nothing because you're you're you're stirring up all this muck 516 00:30:05.799 --> 00:30:09.440 and stuff, and because it's an iron has cable, because 517 00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:12.759 I was bits of wire sticking out, so you'd end up. Now. 518 00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:15.680 Of course you wouldn't feel it when you're underwater because 519 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:19.519 your hands are nearly numb. But after one particular storm, 520 00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:24.480 we went out and I was on I was on 521 00:30:24.519 --> 00:30:26.920 the jackstay, and my body was, as I said, probably 522 00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:29.400 two meters above me. And as I was coming to 523 00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:32.359 where the where I knew there was an anchor to 524 00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:35.960 join to the next cable, I noticed the cable started 525 00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:40.359 rising and I thought, that's a bit secking strange. So 526 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:45.279 the next thing, my cable, my personal cord got caught 527 00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:49.799 in a kink in the the iron cable, and I'm 528 00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:51.960 trying to get my knife out of my leg to 529 00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:56.720 cut it, even though cutting cutting your body card is 530 00:30:56.720 --> 00:30:59.200 is very frowned upon in the Navy. So my body 531 00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:01.039 comes down and he was kind of going, what's going on? 532 00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:04.599 And I showed him where the card was stuck and 533 00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:09.359 I was explaining, I can't move my fingers, so that 534 00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:12.480 the next thing, he shows me his contents gauge, which 535 00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:15.000 was nearly in the red, and I held up mine 536 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:16.319 and I looked at it and I was in the red. 537 00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:20.559 So with no choice, so he cut the cable, cut 538 00:31:20.599 --> 00:31:24.279 the cord and grabbed me and he came up and 539 00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:27.839 it was like Excalibur. The first thing that broke the 540 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:32.920 surface was a hand with the tiger. Needless to say, 541 00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:36.440 or naval structures weren't too impressed. But one of the 542 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:39.160 things that one of the do or die things that 543 00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:42.599 we had to do in that course was the naval 544 00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:44.480 base is on an island and there's a huge bridge 545 00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:48.960 connecting the mainland to the island. So at low tide 546 00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:53.720 you had to jump off this bridge. And I remember 547 00:31:53.799 --> 00:31:56.279 before I started the course, I was talking to a 548 00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:59.079 mat of mine who would completed the previous one, and 549 00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:02.160 I said, what's the jump off the bridge like? And 550 00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:07.000 this guy had a very broad Dublin accent, and he goes, jaesus, 551 00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:09.799 you will fuc and jump and you still full and scream, 552 00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:11.920 and halfway down you will take a breath and you 553 00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:14.640 sill full and scream again and kind of was like that. 554 00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:17.839 It was, it was, it was, it was. 555 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:22.799 It was really really big, and you were in your 556 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:26.000 wetsuit and your fins tucked under your arm, but you 557 00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:28.960 had to kind of enter with your feet tuck together, 558 00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:33.119 slightly bent arms in like that. And no more than 559 00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:36.799 my exit from from the Cessna, my exit from the 560 00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:39.519 top of the bridge wasn't exactly. 561 00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:41.359 Core inverb behind my hands out like that. 562 00:32:41.720 --> 00:32:43.480 But at the end of the evening you have bruises 563 00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:45.680 through the knee, prim you'd be all bruised. Well, I 564 00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:49.359 would because I kind of wasn't doing it technically that right. 565 00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:54.680 But the way it was good and I thoroughly enjoyed. 566 00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:56.680 And of course with fast boats as well, which kind 567 00:32:56.680 --> 00:33:00.440 of added to the to the to the whole of it. 568 00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:06.119 We we initially had twin yam had fifties and these 569 00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:11.079 were five points for meters or ribs, and them has 570 00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:16.000 worn't great, so we decided that we would purchase a 571 00:33:16.039 --> 00:33:20.240 single one twenty Johnson one twenty for each boat, and 572 00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:24.039 I to see always asking me, he said, Mark, how 573 00:33:24.039 --> 00:33:26.680 do you want to test these new engines? And I said, 574 00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:31.119 let's try them to the UK. I didn't really know, 575 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:34.400 but I thought it'd be something interesting to do. And 576 00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:37.519 of course he said, do you not think the British 577 00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:40.559 military might have a certain view of other special forces 578 00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:42.240 entering their territorial waters. 579 00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:44.839 I said, okay, So we tested them another way. 580 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:50.160 But every year the units would have what was known 581 00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:52.480 as a summer camp where we'd kind of go away 582 00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:55.079 and mask some someplace and it was like. 583 00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:57.599 To be We. 584 00:33:57.559 --> 00:33:59.079 Say, if you weren't a diver, you could you could 585 00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:02.440 try out diving, you could rock climb and whatever. But 586 00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:06.279 the adjacent to this place, and some of the high 587 00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:09.480 highest sea cliffs in Europe called the Cliffs of More 588 00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:14.079 really really dramatic. So the CEO said, can we go 589 00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:16.320 over and drive over and kind of look at the 590 00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:18.639 bottom of them? So we had two boats and we 591 00:34:18.679 --> 00:34:21.360 had about biting maybe eight guys in each boat, and 592 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:24.760 the rape I had it's just kind of a straddle sea, 593 00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:27.480 so you're sitting and the steered middle is kind of 594 00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:30.079 down nearly at your knees and the SEO was sitting 595 00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:35.079 behind me. So we drove around and the sea was 596 00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:39.840 nice and calm, and I literally popped the bow of 597 00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:41.480 the rip against the base of the cliffs are over 598 00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:42.800 and you could just look up for three or four 599 00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:43.360 hundred feet. 600 00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:44.199 It's really impressive. 601 00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:47.599 But I kind of started feeling the swell building up, 602 00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:51.840 so I said to the other cocks, I said, let's 603 00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:56.199 let's go, because you could see like it wasn't huge 604 00:34:56.239 --> 00:34:58.840 ways at that stage, but you could tell by the 605 00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:01.800 way they were building that was going get worse. So 606 00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:04.559 we had started heading back towards where we thought we 607 00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:09.280 could recover the boats, and the waves were getting really 608 00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:12.239 big at this stage. So I looked to my right, 609 00:35:12.920 --> 00:35:15.320 and the next thing he went off. A wave went 610 00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:19.519 up and pirouetted and fell, and the boat came down 611 00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:24.639 upside on and all eight guys into the tide. So 612 00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:26.159 I decided I wasn't going to try and go for 613 00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:28.559 a harbor. I was going to beat it because the 614 00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:32.639 next wave was coming from me. So I said to 615 00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:36.039 everyone hold on, and I went gunning for the beach. 616 00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:39.920 And we had a tilt mechanism where we could tilt 617 00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:43.320 the engine if we're coming into shallow water. So I 618 00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:44.679 was getting ready to do that and there was an 619 00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:48.119 almighty crash and I thought I just flipped the boat 620 00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:49.639 as well. There was that much water had come down 621 00:35:49.639 --> 00:35:53.400 on us, but the wave crashed over us. So about 622 00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:56.960 three seconds spun the boat around and headed for the sea, 623 00:35:57.519 --> 00:35:59.519 shouting at forward the lads to run up onto the bow. 624 00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:02.800 So we hit the next way and the boat went 625 00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:06.800 up vertical. So I'm holding the steering will this way. 626 00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:10.079 The commanding officer is holding onto my chest with his 627 00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:12.760 legs hanging in the wind. And as I went up, 628 00:36:13.719 --> 00:36:17.119 I thought, Jesus, I'm going to kill people here. And 629 00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:19.679 then as I'm coming down, I'm thinking, I have a 630 00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:22.920 new Johnson one twenty horsepower engine on the back that's 631 00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:26.639 two weeks old. I'm going to bury it into the sand. 632 00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:30.400 But I didn't, and I managed to get the boat out. 633 00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:33.559 But leaders to say that the other cocks got a 634 00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:36.800 fair amount of abuse. I heard that for having flipped 635 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:39.039 the boat. But we recovered that one as well. 636 00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:41.519 Yeah, I mean, I'm amazed you guys all made it 637 00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:42.800 out of that are alive? 638 00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:44.400 Oh well we did, Yeah, yeah we did. 639 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:47.119 There was a few coats and bruises, but you know, 640 00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:48.800 we're sort of used to that. 641 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:51.679 This would actually be a good time to ask you, 642 00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:54.920 you know, what is the mission of the Irish Rangers. 643 00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:57.000 You're kind of taking us through this training and some 644 00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:00.199 of these capabilities, but at this time, what was the 645 00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:01.960 unit's actual purpose? 646 00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:06.559 Okay, So, like like most soft units, we had a 647 00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:10.800 green roll and a black roll. So black role will 648 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:16.360 be counter terrorism, dealing with hijacking of planes and trains 649 00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:20.400 and and and and buildings. And then the green roll 650 00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:25.199 will be your standard of military sniping, long range patrols, ambushing, 651 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:32.519 that kind of stuff. And we because the unit was 652 00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:34.719 only founded in in the early eighties, so this this 653 00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:38.440 was still in the eighties, so we were in a 654 00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:40.639 lot of cases, we were we were finding our way. 655 00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:45.800 Like certainly the the initial instructors had trained in the US, 656 00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:49.320 but a lot of the stuff like tech for instance, 657 00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:51.800 we had gas rigs, and we had to develop our 658 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:57.960 own concepts on and how to take a rig. And 659 00:37:58.039 --> 00:37:59.880 certainly you know, like we say do in combat swims 660 00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:06.960 for mile out, hitting the hitting the rig, which is 661 00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:09.719 difficult enough at night, let me tell you, and then 662 00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:12.360 setting up a line between two legs so you could 663 00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:16.559 hook your stuff on and then go up the legs 664 00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:18.920 of the rig and carry out whatever you're supposed to do. 665 00:38:20.119 --> 00:38:23.840 And in high seas, you know, like on the legs 666 00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:26.199 of these rigs that there was. 667 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:29.280 Like whole holes. 668 00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:29.840 I suppose we. 669 00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:33.239 Want a better word, but sometimes the word in there. 670 00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:35.800 And you know, you could get hit by a wave 671 00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:39.400 and then when the wave recedes, you could be three 672 00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:43.880 meters off the tide. So a lot of the stuff 673 00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:46.840 we had to kind of supposed figure out for ourselves 674 00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:50.079 the most efficient way of doing it. And I like 675 00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:52.719 the guys there, well, those those two rigs are not 676 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:57.199 alonger with us, but in terms of you know, doing 677 00:38:57.199 --> 00:38:59.320 assaults on moving ships and all the kind of stuff, 678 00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:04.039 the guys they are now extremely skilled and you know 679 00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:06.400 that they're they've gone onto rebreathes and stuff like that, 680 00:39:06.440 --> 00:39:10.639 which we never had at the time. But it was 681 00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:13.760 very much It was the kind of units and I'm 682 00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:15.519 sure it's the same one with you guys as well, 683 00:39:16.360 --> 00:39:20.719 that if you had an idea, everyone was open to 684 00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:24.000 hearing about it. It wasn't that you know, you know, 685 00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:26.840 if you're a young corporate how could you have an idea. 686 00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:32.239 Everyone who had thought about a particular thing, whether it 687 00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:34.119 was a house assault, whether it was a train assault, 688 00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:39.639 whether it was the rigs, whether whatever, people. 689 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:40.119 Would listen to you. 690 00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:43.480 And you know, if if if if everyone thought, well 691 00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:47.480 let's try that. So it was. I found it was 692 00:39:47.480 --> 00:39:51.039 a very good place where where people could express themselves. 693 00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:55.199 And I don't know, like at one stage there's a 694 00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:01.639 there's a special rig for the h K, but I 695 00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:06.400 remember like sometimes it didn't suit, especially with with with assaulting. 696 00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:10.559 It neither be too loose or or whatever. But this 697 00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:13.000 guy got the bright idea. He dispensed with the official 698 00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:16.880 Heckler and Cock rig and he used the bungee card 699 00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:20.679 on either either side of the MP five so when 700 00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:22.559 you needed your hands free, it was tight against your 701 00:40:22.599 --> 00:40:25.400 chest and when you need to move, you just pulled 702 00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:28.039 it out and then it came back in again. And 703 00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:30.639 I thought that was completely great innovation. 704 00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:36.840 It was. It was amazing. And I know at the time. 705 00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:43.000 We were supposed to be the best in the Irish 706 00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:46.559 Defense Forces at navigation, and at the time we were 707 00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:49.239 using half inch to one mile maps, which are not 708 00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:54.679 the easiest maps to navigate on. And I would say privately, 709 00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:58.199 I went off and I did a certificate in an 710 00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:00.800 adventure education because I was I was passionate. 711 00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:02.239 About mountaineering and stuff like that. 712 00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:05.480 And I remember the boss saying to me one day, 713 00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:07.840 he said, Mac, what are the cities like in the Hills, 714 00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:12.880 and I said, my opinion, most of the city's ideal 715 00:41:12.920 --> 00:41:16.079 was their navigation will be at least as good as 716 00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.480 fifty percent of this unit, and way better than the 717 00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:22.280 rest of the army. And I remember one day I 718 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:24.960 was taking it up a navigation class for our own guys, 719 00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:28.159 and we're up in the hills in a kind of 720 00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:32.440 a long valley with steep sides on either side, and 721 00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:34.039 I was saying to the guys, I said, okay, right, 722 00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:36.559 we'll just say that the mist comes down slash and rain. 723 00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:40.239 You know you're in a valley, but and you know 724 00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:45.239 you're facing a side. How will you figure out which 725 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:47.239 side you're on? Because maybe if you up the south 726 00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:49.719 southern side, there's crags at the top and you could 727 00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:53.480 fall off. And I said, just basic equipment that you 728 00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:57.159 had with see what what's what can you do? And 729 00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:02.559 they were kind of going, I don't really know. And 730 00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:05.119 I said, look, take out your compass, take it bearing 731 00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:08.239 up that slope, transfer to the map, and then that 732 00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:10.599 will tell you whether it's the north, south east side. 733 00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:15.320 And these guys, these are hard rangers. And the thought 734 00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:17.320 I was a god because I was bringing in different 735 00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:21.000 techniques from civilian mountaineering and especially with setting up be 736 00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:24.239 lays and climbing, like at the time, I don't know 737 00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:28.440 if you're familiar with with climbing, presume your are at 738 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:31.800 the time. Well, okay, so at the time, if you're 739 00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:34.519 setting up a three point bla, you tie a figure 740 00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:37.920 of eight in the row, you'd bring it out, then 741 00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:39.880 you'd bring it back to the second point, another figure 742 00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:41.800 of eight, then bring it out, bring it back to 743 00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:44.599 the third, another figure of eight, and then a massive 744 00:42:44.599 --> 00:42:45.280 big figure of. 745 00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:46.920 Eight to equalize the three points. 746 00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:50.719 At which stage Europe was nearly gone and I was 747 00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:53.960 just bringing back in new techniques that just made it 748 00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:56.519 much more simpler to set up bliz. 749 00:42:56.239 --> 00:42:57.199 And be much more efficient. 750 00:42:58.039 --> 00:43:02.039 And the unit was very open to that, and it 751 00:43:02.119 --> 00:43:04.079 was like a lot of geist went off and did 752 00:43:05.719 --> 00:43:08.239 kind of did extra freefall in their own time with 753 00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:11.559 civilian clubs, and they were bringing back techniques for for 754 00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:14.679 parachuting as well. So it was very much you know, 755 00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:16.480 if you've got an idea, let's hear us and let's 756 00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:19.000 see if it's any good, which was, which was, which 757 00:43:19.039 --> 00:43:19.480 was great. 758 00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:24.679 And the other interesting thing before we get into some 759 00:43:24.719 --> 00:43:29.000 of the overseas stuff is. You guys did operations domestically 760 00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:32.599 in Ireland. This was during the troubles. I could tell 761 00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:34.840 us a little bit about that. About the wrecky missions 762 00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:37.079 and counter terrorism missions that you guys did. 763 00:43:42.039 --> 00:43:46.639 We did. We did a few, I know one of them. 764 00:43:47.719 --> 00:43:53.599 We there was fairly credible information that an IRA training 765 00:43:53.639 --> 00:43:56.760 camp would be would take part in a certain part 766 00:43:56.760 --> 00:43:59.280 of the wood in a certain part of the northern 767 00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:00.599 part of our country, shall we say. 768 00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:05.599 And I remember doing the initially close target wrecking on it. 769 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:11.920 And finding a few AK forty seven casings, so we. 770 00:44:11.960 --> 00:44:14.679 Knew it had this clearing had been used before. 771 00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:20.039 I also noted that whenever they had finished firing, they 772 00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:23.320 turned around did the three sixty into the woods, because 773 00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:26.039 I could see where the where branches have been chipped away, 774 00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:28.880 which tends to focus the brain when you're when you're 775 00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:35.800 putting in a few ops on that on that site. Now, 776 00:44:37.639 --> 00:44:39.679 nothing really happened on that particular one. But there was 777 00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:46.000 another case where again similar kind of credible information, where 778 00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:48.920 a meeting was to take place at a certain track 779 00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:52.719 junction in a forest and from there they would proceed 780 00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:55.039 on to do whatever they were going to do. So 781 00:44:55.119 --> 00:44:58.639 we had and if you can imagine a forest track 782 00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:01.559 kind of comes up pill this way and then takes 783 00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:03.159 a sharp bend and goes back that way. 784 00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:06.239 So we had three teams watching the. 785 00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:13.679 Displace and eventually, after about i know, seven red days, 786 00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:15.119 we were getting pulled out. 787 00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:16.360 Nothing had happened. 788 00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:19.039 And on the last day we were just getting ready 789 00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:21.159 to sort of pack up, you know, when it was 790 00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:25.679 getting dusk, this car comes flying in on the lower road, 791 00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:28.880 kind of screeches around the corner and goes up those 792 00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:34.679 two people in it, goes up the top road, disappears 793 00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:38.079 around the bend, and then the door was opening and closing, 794 00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:41.000 and there's a bit of shouting, and then the car 795 00:45:41.079 --> 00:45:45.119 comes slowly back down the way to Cain. 796 00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:48.400 And it was driven by a female. 797 00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:51.360 So she came down to the bend, turns around and 798 00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:54.400 was going down on the lower road. And the next 799 00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:56.920 thing you're, a man that had been in the car 800 00:45:57.840 --> 00:45:59.639 starts running from we'll see the upper road to the 801 00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:05.119 lower road through the forest. He had stepped on two 802 00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:08.320 of our guys, and it was only when he stepped 803 00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:10.880 on the balls of the third guy that the forest rupped. 804 00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:17.519 So we called it the police because they're the ones 805 00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:18.840 that have to make a rest and all that kind 806 00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:24.920 of stuff. But it turned out that this guy was 807 00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:28.119 teaching his girlfriend to drive and he was explaining an 808 00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:32.440 emergency stop and he said, you drive down slowly and 809 00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:34.280 at some stage I jump out in front of you. 810 00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:39.239 And he didn't expect a lot of soft guys covered 811 00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:41.840 in the black and green pen to be. 812 00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:44.920 But yeah, we did. 813 00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:46.440 We did a few and then then like one of 814 00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:51.960 the bigger ones, one of the notorious terrorists at the time, 815 00:46:54.199 --> 00:47:00.079 O Hair here, we were involved in in in in 816 00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:08.079 in that we we're very close in the forest that 817 00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:11.519 we'd say the bends were still warm when when we 818 00:47:11.559 --> 00:47:16.079 came in, but they got out the other side and 819 00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:20.119 he was subsequently caught in a in a checkpoint down 820 00:47:20.440 --> 00:47:26.239 near near Kenny. So yeah, that that that was that 821 00:47:26.360 --> 00:47:31.079 was interesting, and you know it it sort of makes you, 822 00:47:32.119 --> 00:47:34.280 it makes you think. It's it's certainly it's it's Unlikeael 823 00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:37.400 would say overseas service when when when you're looking at 824 00:47:37.960 --> 00:47:39.840 hard and criminals that weren't a play of shooting an 825 00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.960 Irish policeman or kill an Irish policeman and Irish soldiers. 826 00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:45.599 It does certainly make you. 827 00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:50.519 Make make you think all the more about about your 828 00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:52.800 your your skills and your drills and and and and 829 00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:55.519 how to react to any any given situation. 830 00:47:56.559 --> 00:48:00.880 During that manhunt, if I recall, right, you guys lost 831 00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:02.239 a unit member, didn't you. 832 00:48:03.079 --> 00:48:05.440 We did, Yeah, yeaht poor Kevin Mayne got dress him. 833 00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:11.400 Which was like we were a small unit and we 834 00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:16.440 had never ren reached our full effective strength because there's 835 00:48:16.440 --> 00:48:20.719 no point in sacrifice and quality for quantity. So when 836 00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:25.119 this this was like a nationwide manhunt. So we had 837 00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:30.159 basically a platoon plus deployed up towards the border and 838 00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:36.159 another platoon plus further south. And yeah, Kevin was killed 839 00:48:36.159 --> 00:48:40.440 tragically in an accident in the military base in the car. 840 00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:44.760 And of course when we got this news, because obviously 841 00:48:45.119 --> 00:48:48.199 you know yourself, soft hunits tend to be fairly tight 842 00:48:48.280 --> 00:48:50.559 with each other, it was a big blow. But we 843 00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:54.039 still had to kind of stick with the mission and 844 00:48:54.440 --> 00:48:59.880 trying to kind of compart compartmentalized degree there was a 845 00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:02.360 to do it. 846 00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:07.239 On a lighter note, Let's talk a little bit about 847 00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:10.039 your interest in mountaineering, because your book is not just 848 00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:13.360 soldier stories, although there's a lot of those. Also, you 849 00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:17.119 talk about your experience in mountaineering archaeology and things like that. 850 00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:20.440 You mentioned that this was a passion for you. I mean, 851 00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:21.800 how did you get into climbing? 852 00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:25.960 And I suppose. 853 00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:30.320 When I mentioned earlier that I did this certificate in 854 00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:34.920 adventure education, so I under spend a lot of time 855 00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:40.960 with civilians who were into all sorts of adventure sports, 856 00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:45.000 whether it's rock climb and mountaineering, canoeing, diving, that that 857 00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:51.320 sort of stuff. And no, obviously I've been in the unity. 858 00:49:51.320 --> 00:49:55.519 I had to be very qualified in upseiling and setting 859 00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:57.760 up a sales and row access and that kind of stuff. 860 00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:01.320 Climbing not so much. So I ended up being. 861 00:50:02.679 --> 00:50:06.280 Extremely passionate, not just about with the classical mountaineering, but 862 00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:11.639 in in full on rock climbing where and I suppose 863 00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:17.760 maybe for your your listeners that maybe don't have never 864 00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:21.119 tried rock climb in it. The best way I can 865 00:50:21.159 --> 00:50:26.119 describe it is if you're we say, playing soccer for 866 00:50:26.199 --> 00:50:29.719 your local town team, and you score the winning goal 867 00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:33.440 in the local cup. It's a great achievement, but we'll 868 00:50:33.480 --> 00:50:35.519 say it's not we say, the same as scoring the 869 00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:39.440 winning goal in i suppose your state championship, and it's 870 00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:41.280 certainly not the same as scoring the winning goal for 871 00:50:41.800 --> 00:50:44.960 America in the World Cup. You know, there are different 872 00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:49.079 levels of kind of achievement. But if you take something 873 00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:51.440 like rock climbing, and you have a cliff that's one 874 00:50:51.519 --> 00:50:54.960 hundred yards wide and a one hundred feet tall, and 875 00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:56.400 on the right hand side of the cliff is the 876 00:50:56.440 --> 00:50:58.639 hardest clime in the world, and on the left hand 877 00:50:58.679 --> 00:51:00.960 side of the cliff is probab the easiest climb in 878 00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:04.199 the world. If a beginner starting here, if the best 879 00:51:04.199 --> 00:51:07.519 climb in the world's starting there. As they're climbing, they're 880 00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:10.280 both placing protection and clipping the rope in. They're both 881 00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:13.599 coming through the exact same feelings of fear and anxiety, 882 00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:15.880 and when the two of them get to the top, 883 00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:19.360 it's the exact same feeling of exhilaration that you get. 884 00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:23.480 So no matter what stage you participate in rock climbing, 885 00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:28.559 the the trills and the dangers are the exact same. 886 00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:31.119 So therefore the sense of achievement when you get there, 887 00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:34.199 I've always found or the exact same. 888 00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:36.920 That's interesting. I never heard anyone put it that way before. 889 00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:39.760 It's the Irish ra explaining it. 890 00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:42.079 No, that's a great way to explain it. 891 00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:46.480 And you got to did you get the name a 892 00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:49.840 peak or a climb after yours because you were the 893 00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:50.719 first one to do it. 894 00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:57.119 Okay, So in rock climbing, I ended up being quite 895 00:51:57.159 --> 00:52:00.000 friendly with one of the best rock climbers at the time. 896 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:02.199 I'm a guy called Tom Ryan who passed away subsequently 897 00:52:02.199 --> 00:52:06.280 got rested. But we used to go to the Sea 898 00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:08.599 cliffs on on the west coast of Mayo, which kind 899 00:52:08.599 --> 00:52:11.440 of on the central part of the of the country. 900 00:52:13.480 --> 00:52:18.599 So if if you find a route and lead it, 901 00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:22.159 you decide the grade and you give it a name, 902 00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:26.519 and then kind of henceforth the name will be First 903 00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:29.400 Ascent Kevin McDonald with Tom Ryan or vice versa or whatever, 904 00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:31.960 and the name is whatever. And when you look at 905 00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:34.360 a rock climbing guide, it will tell you that this 906 00:52:34.519 --> 00:52:38.199 climb is graded at this difficulty. First Ascent was made 907 00:52:38.199 --> 00:52:41.760 by Kevin McDonald and Tom Ryan and the name of 908 00:52:42.159 --> 00:52:42.480 all of it. 909 00:52:43.519 --> 00:52:46.639 So, yeah, that's that's kind of another interesting about rock climbing. 910 00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:49.000 Your your name kind of lives on if you're the 911 00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:50.719 first person to make that particular climb. 912 00:52:53.159 --> 00:52:56.760 I and then you went to the dark side and 913 00:52:56.800 --> 00:52:57.639 became an officer. 914 00:52:59.039 --> 00:52:59.880 Yeah, I did. 915 00:53:01.800 --> 00:53:06.800 It's it's it's it's it's kind of strange. So when 916 00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:11.440 when I spent five years in the SF, I was 917 00:53:11.480 --> 00:53:14.480 getting tired of of sort of living out of the 918 00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:18.199 bag essentially, and I didn't want to go to a 919 00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:22.559 standard unit where I knew i'd get flat because of 920 00:53:22.599 --> 00:53:25.960 all the courses I had done. And an opportunity came 921 00:53:26.039 --> 00:53:30.400 up in the unit I originally was in as a reserve. 922 00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:34.719 There was an opportunity for the training stargeant, and I thought, right, 923 00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:37.119 I'll applied for that, and that will give me great 924 00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:41.360 scope to really get into high level mountaineering, because I 925 00:53:41.400 --> 00:53:45.840 knew I wouldn't be that challenged look at after a 926 00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:50.519 bunch of eager reserves. So I did, and I have 927 00:53:50.559 --> 00:53:52.719 to say after about a year, I was beginning to 928 00:53:52.760 --> 00:53:58.280 get a bit twitchy. And then the Irish Defense Force 929 00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:00.840 has decided that they would run a course to commission 930 00:54:01.599 --> 00:54:03.719 suitable qualified NCOs from the ranks. 931 00:54:04.599 --> 00:54:05.960 And this doesn't happen that often. 932 00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:10.800 So this was in nineteen ninety one, and this would 933 00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:14.400 have been the seventh potential office of course ran in 934 00:54:14.440 --> 00:54:17.159 the Defense Forces since the Army was founded in nineteen 935 00:54:17.199 --> 00:54:22.880 twenty one. And the difference for this one, which kind 936 00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:25.880 of made it appeal to me was the previous six 937 00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:29.079 was they selected people with skills in A and Q 938 00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:31.960 and they kind of put them in as adjudants and 939 00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:35.239 battalion qms and stuff like that, and more or less 940 00:54:35.239 --> 00:54:39.239 specifically not given them operational rules where we were told 941 00:54:39.400 --> 00:54:47.719 we would be standard platoon commanders. So yeah, yeah, I jumped. 942 00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:50.440 Into the dark side and it was good. It was interesting. 943 00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:52.840 I ended up in a lot more places than I 944 00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:57.239 would have ended up in as a as an NCO 945 00:54:59.239 --> 00:55:03.800 one into thing sorry one, no, go ahead, Kevin, Okay, Well, 946 00:55:03.800 --> 00:55:06.719 I was just just going to tell you the story 947 00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:08.280 that just because I went to the dark side, I 948 00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:12.079 didn't lose my mad streak. There's the high there's the 949 00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:15.840 high security prison in Ireland called port Leage, and the 950 00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:22.480 inner part of the prison is the old British prison 951 00:55:22.519 --> 00:55:26.400 from when when they were running the country, and this 952 00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:29.360 is where they generally. We had two platoons in at 953 00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:31.920 the time, so you would do a three day stint 954 00:55:32.119 --> 00:55:34.239 nine hours, nine hours off, nine on, nine off for 955 00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:36.000 three days and then go out for three back in 956 00:55:36.079 --> 00:55:38.360 for three and you would do three months of that. 957 00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:42.559 So I was a platoon commander for the battalion that 958 00:55:42.639 --> 00:55:47.360 was in and normally I don't know if if you 959 00:55:47.480 --> 00:55:51.760 have something similar in in the US Army, but before 960 00:55:51.800 --> 00:55:54.199 you go on and we say guard duty, you have 961 00:55:54.280 --> 00:55:55.920 to be what's known as mounted. So in other words, 962 00:55:56.000 --> 00:55:59.800 you line up, the officer checks that, then there's nothing 963 00:55:59.840 --> 00:56:02.199 in the breach, and then you fit a charge magazine. 964 00:56:02.199 --> 00:56:05.679 And it's kind of it's kind of a bit bit 965 00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:09.599 of an old habit. So anyway, I was waiting for 966 00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:11.440 my platoon to form up, and I was looking at 967 00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:14.400 the at the wall, the original wall of the of 968 00:56:14.440 --> 00:56:18.559 the prison, which was made up of limestone, and I 969 00:56:18.559 --> 00:56:21.199 was kind of looking at it, thinking I wonder I 970 00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:24.360 could I could I climb that? So one of the 971 00:56:24.719 --> 00:56:29.000 one of the privates that knew me from my sporting 972 00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:32.639 experience with the with the Pentacleon team, he said. 973 00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:33.719 So come away from it. 974 00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:36.239 You wouldn't even get off the ground, because he knew 975 00:56:36.280 --> 00:56:38.079 I was a rock climber, and he had the whole 976 00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:40.880 platoon listening to him. And I said, all right, would 977 00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:43.440 you like to put a little wager on that? He said, 978 00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:45.880 I'll bet you wouldn't get three meters off the ground. 979 00:56:47.320 --> 00:56:51.480 And the whole thing was probably it was at least 980 00:56:51.480 --> 00:56:54.719 ten meters, probably twelve meters was tall. One. I said, right, 981 00:56:56.199 --> 00:56:59.719 I'll double your bet and I'll get to within three 982 00:56:59.719 --> 00:57:03.199 meters at the top. So of course he's gone. 983 00:57:03.400 --> 00:57:05.119 I have him. I have the officer. 984 00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:07.800 The next time I came back, I brought him by 985 00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:11.039 rock climbing shoes and chalk because when you're when you're 986 00:57:11.079 --> 00:57:14.400 climbing on small holes, your your fingers get very sort 987 00:57:14.440 --> 00:57:18.440 of sweating. So after a nine hour shift, I'd spent 988 00:57:18.519 --> 00:57:22.079 about forty minutes on the wall trying to perfect these 989 00:57:22.119 --> 00:57:24.119 little holes where the mortar. 990 00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:24.599 Had had come up. 991 00:57:24.679 --> 00:57:29.079 When i'd get my fingers in and after like forty minutes, 992 00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:31.159 as much as you could do because you're kind of 993 00:57:31.159 --> 00:57:33.079 hanging balancing on the tips of your chosen on the 994 00:57:33.079 --> 00:57:36.000 tips of your fingers, but i'd always leave a little 995 00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:40.039 chalk mark to show that the high point. And of 996 00:57:40.039 --> 00:57:42.559 course the lads to be saying to this guy, he's 997 00:57:42.599 --> 00:57:45.639 getting higher, you know, he's getting hot. So anyway that 998 00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:47.840 I thought I'd figured out how I could do this 999 00:57:47.920 --> 00:57:52.519 kind of rising traverse, and I went past three meters 1000 00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:55.880 new and won the better I want past two meters, 1001 00:57:57.159 --> 00:58:00.360 and I knew I could make a lunch to the top, 1002 00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:03.719 but I couldn't reverse it, so I'd have to kind 1003 00:58:03.719 --> 00:58:06.480 of crawl along the top of the wall to get 1004 00:58:06.519 --> 00:58:07.719 into one of the guard posts, and. 1005 00:58:09.880 --> 00:58:11.599 Everyone was going to know about what was going on. 1006 00:58:12.119 --> 00:58:15.199 So I I had this conversation between the mad side 1007 00:58:15.239 --> 00:58:17.000 of my brain and the camp side of my brain 1008 00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:19.800 about twenty feet off the ground and hanging like this. 1009 00:58:20.559 --> 00:58:23.360 So then I reversed the climb and talk no more 1010 00:58:23.360 --> 00:58:26.760 about it. And about three months later I was in 1011 00:58:26.800 --> 00:58:30.119 a different barracks and I was in the Austras mess 1012 00:58:30.159 --> 00:58:32.840 having a beer and a few other guys came in 1013 00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:36.320 and I was introduced to myself and well, you're from 1014 00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:40.119 the West, I said, yeah, who's that guy that climbed 1015 00:58:40.199 --> 00:58:43.039 up the wall in Portish prison, climbed down the fire side, 1016 00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:45.280 went into town, bought a pack of cigarettes and came 1017 00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:46.079 up and reversed it. 1018 00:58:46.360 --> 00:58:47.800 And I said, but it wasn't quite like that. 1019 00:58:47.880 --> 00:58:50.239 Now, see, Kevin, that's. 1020 00:58:49.880 --> 00:58:51.199 Where that's where you screwed up. 1021 00:58:51.239 --> 00:58:53.000 You were supposed to look him then the eye and 1022 00:58:53.039 --> 00:58:54.519 say that's exactly. 1023 00:58:54.079 --> 00:58:54.800 How it happened. 1024 00:58:59.400 --> 00:59:01.239 But yeah, that was interesting. 1025 00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:06.360 And then nineteen ninety three you go back to Lebanon, 1026 00:59:06.400 --> 00:59:08.599 this time as an officer m. 1027 00:59:11.480 --> 00:59:13.440 And that was. 1028 00:59:13.360 --> 00:59:16.719 Interesting because I was in charge of Recie section, so 1029 00:59:16.760 --> 00:59:22.519 we had we had two big seize armored cars which 1030 00:59:22.519 --> 00:59:25.639 I had to be qualified in as well. So I 1031 00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:28.559 was out and about a lot. But it also coincided 1032 00:59:28.599 --> 00:59:35.639 with a major seven day war between Israel and I 1033 00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:39.480 suppose that the people of Lebanon, and at that stage 1034 00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:42.719 the Israelis had kind of withdrawn to what they call 1035 00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:46.519 the securities on, which was essentially a ten kilometer deep 1036 00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:52.719 strip inside in Lebanon, and they had fortified positions on 1037 00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:55.159 all the all the high ground. Plus they had the 1038 00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:59.280 services of what we call the DFF, the de Factor Forces, 1039 00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:01.119 and they called the South Lebanese Army, So these were 1040 01:00:01.159 --> 01:00:06.400 Lebanese that were armed in uniformed by the Israelis. And 1041 01:00:06.639 --> 01:00:12.480 every fortnight, I suppose Hesbola would attack the Israelis, but 1042 01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:16.440 they had they were effective enough, I have to say, 1043 01:00:17.119 --> 01:00:22.599 and at one case there was there was an idea 1044 01:00:22.639 --> 01:00:24.519 of blue and blue and I think there was about 1045 01:00:24.559 --> 01:00:27.719 four people full idea of killed. So then they launched 1046 01:00:27.800 --> 01:00:30.400 what they called Operational Accountability, which was a seven day 1047 01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:36.239 A seven day war essentially was standoff. It was planes 1048 01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:39.480 and tanks and artillery and naval gunships and stuff like that. 1049 01:00:40.960 --> 01:00:45.440 But their stated aim was to create a huge refugee 1050 01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:48.760 problem that might force the Lebanese government to take on 1051 01:00:49.159 --> 01:00:52.920 hes bullet, and of course it didn't. It sort of 1052 01:00:53.000 --> 01:00:58.239 drove people more into the arms of the extreme. But 1053 01:00:59.559 --> 01:01:03.760 I remember at one stage I was on the roof 1054 01:01:03.800 --> 01:01:07.000 of a three story building which was our company in quarters, 1055 01:01:07.960 --> 01:01:11.639 and there was one five five artillery landing all over 1056 01:01:11.679 --> 01:01:13.039 the place, and of course each one of them is 1057 01:01:13.079 --> 01:01:15.559 a violation, just as Catosha is going into Israel as 1058 01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:18.559 a violation, and. 1059 01:01:17.480 --> 01:01:20.000 We had to kind of record the locations of them all. 1060 01:01:20.880 --> 01:01:23.440 And I saw this shell hit the village about a 1061 01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:26.239 kilometer away, and it didn't explode. 1062 01:01:26.239 --> 01:01:29.039 It it ricocheted, and I could see it. 1063 01:01:28.920 --> 01:01:31.679 Coming in my general direction, so I kind of threw 1064 01:01:31.719 --> 01:01:34.599 myself down on the roof and then forgot about it 1065 01:01:34.599 --> 01:01:37.000 because there was ship flying all over the place. 1066 01:01:37.840 --> 01:01:40.960 And then we used to for. 1067 01:01:40.960 --> 01:01:45.320 Internal communications within the camp with these old dial up phones, 1068 01:01:45.360 --> 01:01:48.639 you know, the field telephone where yeah, yeah, So I 1069 01:01:49.360 --> 01:01:53.079 go roof and this guy goes, sir, have you looked 1070 01:01:53.119 --> 01:01:55.159 at your accommodation? So I looked over the roof and 1071 01:01:55.159 --> 01:01:57.199 there's a big hole in the roof and the door 1072 01:01:57.320 --> 01:01:59.639 was blown out. So I thought, okay, that's where the 1073 01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:03.679 land it talk no more about it. So then five 1074 01:02:03.719 --> 01:02:07.840 minutes later roof, sorry, you better look at the canteen. 1075 01:02:07.960 --> 01:02:09.800 So I'm looking over and here at the steps of 1076 01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:11.960 the canteen as an unexploded one five to five shell. 1077 01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:17.320 So I contact the battalion. They contact the idea if 1078 01:02:17.400 --> 01:02:20.880 there's a liaison branch in UNIFIL that kind of does 1079 01:02:20.960 --> 01:02:24.199 that stuff. So they agreed not to shell the road 1080 01:02:24.239 --> 01:02:26.559 from the battalion headquarters or to where we were for 1081 01:02:26.679 --> 01:02:30.239 three hours to allow for one of our EOD guys 1082 01:02:30.239 --> 01:02:33.280 to come out and deal with the with the unexploded shell. 1083 01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:40.679 So anyway, the this this Captain Ryman, He said, kat, 1084 01:02:40.719 --> 01:02:43.079 can you get about twenty or thirty sandbags or as 1085 01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:45.760 many as you can because obviously when I when I 1086 01:02:45.800 --> 01:02:48.840 blow this, it'll do a bit of damage. And I 1087 01:02:48.840 --> 01:02:53.119 have this marvelous picture of about six guys in flag 1088 01:02:53.199 --> 01:02:57.599 jackets and helmets furrian sandbags towards the shell, and then 1089 01:02:57.599 --> 01:03:01.000 across from them there's another six guys with jackets and helmets, 1090 01:03:01.599 --> 01:03:03.960 furry and all the beer out of the canteen, because 1091 01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:06.400 the canteen will be destroyed when your man blew that 1092 01:03:06.840 --> 01:03:09.679 blew the shell, which which you kind of was. So 1093 01:03:09.760 --> 01:03:12.920 we subsequently, when the war was over, we renamed it 1094 01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:17.519 the one five five Club. But the day after the ceasefire, 1095 01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:22.679 I was going up to the village of Branshes with 1096 01:03:22.679 --> 01:03:24.400 the name of the village to do a sort of 1097 01:03:24.440 --> 01:03:28.119 a wreckie. And because there was so many unexploded shells. 1098 01:03:28.119 --> 01:03:31.400 In fact, it was a policy of the idea to 1099 01:03:31.480 --> 01:03:36.039 fire one five five artillery shells without fuses, and they 1100 01:03:36.440 --> 01:03:39.079 did more damage. So we say, if one five five, 1101 01:03:39.079 --> 01:03:41.079 as you probably know yourself, one of one five five 1102 01:03:41.639 --> 01:03:42.440 shell goes off. 1103 01:03:42.320 --> 01:03:45.000 As a creator maybe a meter wide and half a meter. 1104 01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:48.480 Deep and loads of shrapling, But if it doesn't explode, 1105 01:03:49.000 --> 01:03:51.840 it could come down through a three story concrete house, 1106 01:03:52.480 --> 01:03:54.239 went to the garden and come up and land in 1107 01:03:54.280 --> 01:03:56.440 the second story of the house next door. So you 1108 01:03:56.440 --> 01:03:58.639 have destroyed one house, and if you do what you're 1109 01:03:58.639 --> 01:04:00.639 supposed to do, which is blow the shell in situe, 1110 01:04:00.760 --> 01:04:06.119 you've destroyed a second house. And this particular day, myself 1111 01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:09.760 and this Swedish leftenant was a bombs bottle of guide. 1112 01:04:10.840 --> 01:04:14.760 We carried I think ten unexploded one five to five 1113 01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:19.559 out of the houses, and we had a small jeep 1114 01:04:19.960 --> 01:04:25.079 and a trailer. So when we had I think twelve shells, 1115 01:04:26.079 --> 01:04:28.039 we contacted battalion and said, right, we're going down to 1116 01:04:28.039 --> 01:04:30.960 this boddy and we're going to blow them at this 1117 01:04:31.119 --> 01:04:33.760 time because these rails had to be informed because if 1118 01:04:33.760 --> 01:04:35.880 they hurd an explosion, then I think it's a break 1119 01:04:36.119 --> 01:04:39.679 down of the Seaspire. So we're rattling down this narrow 1120 01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:43.039 lane and this lady comes screaming out of a house 1121 01:04:43.719 --> 01:04:48.800 and on the roof of her house was an unexploded shell, 1122 01:04:48.880 --> 01:04:50.960 but this one had a fuse on it and it 1123 01:04:51.000 --> 01:04:54.840 will bounced I don't nowhere and kind of land. So 1124 01:04:54.880 --> 01:04:58.360 the tools got up and looked at it, and I said, 1125 01:04:58.400 --> 01:05:01.360 you know what, let's put two loops on a piece 1126 01:05:01.400 --> 01:05:04.800 of rope, bring them together. We'll go over and get 1127 01:05:04.840 --> 01:05:08.519 down behind the wall and pull and so like as 1128 01:05:08.559 --> 01:05:11.679 it's rolling. If it goes off, it won't go off 1129 01:05:11.719 --> 01:05:18.199 near us. So as as we're getting ready to pull 1130 01:05:18.239 --> 01:05:20.400 on the rope, he said, you know, in Sweden, if 1131 01:05:20.440 --> 01:05:22.800 my commanding officer sees this, I will be a civilian. 1132 01:05:23.280 --> 01:05:25.360 I said, if my commanding officer. Here's of this. I'll 1133 01:05:25.400 --> 01:05:28.320 be a civilian too. We didn't have a choice. 1134 01:05:28.800 --> 01:05:31.119 So when when it when it rolled up to the 1135 01:05:31.199 --> 01:05:33.800 edge of the roof and it was only like six 1136 01:05:33.840 --> 01:05:36.239 feet from us, he goes up and he grabs it, 1137 01:05:37.639 --> 01:05:40.079 and I I take off my flat jacket and I'll 1138 01:05:40.079 --> 01:05:42.000 wrap it around the shell as if that's going as 1139 01:05:42.000 --> 01:05:43.639 if that's going to make anything difference. 1140 01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:50.480 It just it seems the right thing to do with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1141 01:05:50.519 --> 01:05:51.800 And so I was back. 1142 01:05:51.679 --> 01:05:56.599 There in ninety six for another seven war operation Grapes 1143 01:05:56.599 --> 01:05:59.679 of Wrath, and then I was there in two thousand 1144 01:05:59.719 --> 01:06:01.920 and six with my family as an unarmed Diminity observer 1145 01:06:02.760 --> 01:06:06.239 and I was there for thirty four days of complete 1146 01:06:06.880 --> 01:06:13.159 vichery and we had our unit of unarmed observers were 1147 01:06:13.159 --> 01:06:19.519 the strength of fifty two. And it was a family 1148 01:06:19.599 --> 01:06:21.559 mission at the time. So my wife and kids were 1149 01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:26.280 with me in the Jerusalem right. No, we were in 1150 01:06:26.320 --> 01:06:28.880 tier in Lebanon. We had been living in Tiberias when 1151 01:06:28.880 --> 01:06:31.960 I was waiting on the goal, but then I was 1152 01:06:31.960 --> 01:06:34.960 transferred to Lebanon. So the kids were five and seven, 1153 01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:37.960 going to a local Aims speaking school. 1154 01:06:38.239 --> 01:06:39.559 Everything was great. 1155 01:06:39.599 --> 01:06:43.199 We had them in Beru Damascus, A man like Lebanon 1156 01:06:43.400 --> 01:06:45.519 was happening at the time, and out of the blue, 1157 01:06:46.800 --> 01:06:48.480 I went off. I used to do a seven day 1158 01:06:48.519 --> 01:06:51.119 patrol and come back for three or four days. So 1159 01:06:51.159 --> 01:06:53.400 I went off and choose the morning for a seven 1160 01:06:53.440 --> 01:06:56.679 day patrol, telling my wife Claire, you know, I'll see 1161 01:06:56.719 --> 01:06:58.360 in seven days. And the next day the war kicked 1162 01:06:58.400 --> 01:07:01.400 off and it took to you, I think, two and 1163 01:07:01.440 --> 01:07:06.000 a half weeks to evacuate the families we had. We 1164 01:07:06.039 --> 01:07:10.039 had four bases along the frontier with Israel, and when 1165 01:07:10.079 --> 01:07:14.559 they had agreed that, they basically hired a cruise liner 1166 01:07:14.559 --> 01:07:17.239 from Cyprus and got it to come over and stand 1167 01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:20.119 off shore and send in lifeboats. So when this has 1168 01:07:20.159 --> 01:07:23.800 been planned, any of the guys up on the patrol 1169 01:07:23.880 --> 01:07:27.280 bases that had family, they were trying to prioritize an 1170 01:07:27.360 --> 01:07:30.760 armored escort to get them down to say goodbye. But 1171 01:07:30.880 --> 01:07:33.599 we were I was. We were getting hammered with tank 1172 01:07:33.599 --> 01:07:39.079 and artillery fire. Not direct, but like within fifteen twenty. 1173 01:07:38.800 --> 01:07:42.760 Meters that's pretty direct, well. 1174 01:07:44.480 --> 01:07:46.920 For tanks it is yet yeah, yeah. 1175 01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:48.599 Horseshoes and hand grenades that's pretty close. 1176 01:07:49.199 --> 01:07:53.159 Yeah, So I couldn't get out, so when my wife 1177 01:07:53.159 --> 01:07:54.800 and two kids were getting into the lifeboat to bring 1178 01:07:54.880 --> 01:07:58.079 them out to the cruise ship, I rang around the 1179 01:07:58.079 --> 01:07:59.519 phone and I said, I'll see you when I see it, 1180 01:07:59.719 --> 01:08:02.920 which is not a great way now, is to end 1181 01:08:02.920 --> 01:08:04.559 the family mission to the Middle East. Let me tell 1182 01:08:04.559 --> 01:08:11.920 you the along with with Claire, there was a Canadian captain. 1183 01:08:12.440 --> 01:08:15.679 She had her back broken when her armored car was shelled. 1184 01:08:16.800 --> 01:08:20.640 And then in the next three days we lost over 1185 01:08:20.680 --> 01:08:23.680 ten percent of strength. We had another captain shot in 1186 01:08:23.720 --> 01:08:26.880 the back. He's non a wheel chair. And then the 1187 01:08:26.960 --> 01:08:29.319 Israelis dropped the Jada into the post, just up for me, 1188 01:08:29.439 --> 01:08:35.119 killing for very good friends of mine. And when you 1189 01:08:35.159 --> 01:08:36.920 pick up, as you probably know yourself, when you pick 1190 01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:38.600 up a friend of yours with no arms, no legs, 1191 01:08:38.600 --> 01:08:39.960 and a head and you're trying to figure out which 1192 01:08:39.960 --> 01:08:44.880 one it is, it gives you certain feelings about certain things. 1193 01:08:44.880 --> 01:08:46.119 I suppose, but. 1194 01:08:47.800 --> 01:08:49.399 Yeah, yeah, that'll stick with you. 1195 01:08:49.640 --> 01:08:51.359 Two thousand and six was a wee bit rough, I 1196 01:08:51.399 --> 01:08:51.840 have to say. 1197 01:08:53.680 --> 01:08:59.520 And then actually during the during the ceasefire, we were 1198 01:08:59.520 --> 01:09:02.960 out in Buttow and we're going through this village and 1199 01:09:03.159 --> 01:09:04.000 I saw one. 1200 01:09:03.920 --> 01:09:06.079 Of the houses had the whole gable wall blown off. 1201 01:09:06.840 --> 01:09:11.279 So for some reason I stopped and went in, and 1202 01:09:11.319 --> 01:09:13.840 in the sitting room there's like a five hundred pound 1203 01:09:13.880 --> 01:09:17.399 bomb landed against the corner. So that obviously had landed 1204 01:09:17.399 --> 01:09:20.239 simplest ricocheted, blew through the wall and the snow in 1205 01:09:20.279 --> 01:09:25.199 someone's sitting room. And so I went in, took up 1206 01:09:25.199 --> 01:09:27.199 my notebook and I was taken down the serial number 1207 01:09:27.279 --> 01:09:31.000 of the of the bomb American Maid actually, and. 1208 01:09:33.119 --> 01:09:35.479 When I was taking it down, the next thing I. 1209 01:09:35.399 --> 01:09:40.439 Heard is and I went, fuck, it was the clock 1210 01:09:40.479 --> 01:09:42.680 that had fallen off the water, because I know bombs 1211 01:09:42.680 --> 01:09:44.479 don't take like your brains. 1212 01:09:44.600 --> 01:09:47.520 Yeah, you've seen enough cartoons that you can't take the chance. 1213 01:09:50.439 --> 01:09:53.439 Yeah, that was That was a Yeah, two thousand and 1214 01:09:53.479 --> 01:09:54.159 six was interesting. 1215 01:09:54.319 --> 01:09:54.359 You. 1216 01:09:54.680 --> 01:09:57.000 I'd like to ask you a little bit more about, 1217 01:09:57.119 --> 01:09:59.720 you know, the U and these peacekeeping missions that you 1218 01:09:59.720 --> 01:10:04.960 were part of. Not only are you placing yourself between 1219 01:10:05.000 --> 01:10:08.119 the two belligerents and these conflicts, and you spend time 1220 01:10:08.119 --> 01:10:11.479 in the goal on heights also so between Syria and Israel, 1221 01:10:11.600 --> 01:10:14.760 or between Lebanon and Israel, or maybe Hezbola in Israel 1222 01:10:14.840 --> 01:10:19.119 is more accurately said. But and then at the same 1223 01:10:19.159 --> 01:10:21.560 time you were also in a multinational force. I mean 1224 01:10:21.600 --> 01:10:25.439 you talked about there were Chinese soldiers, there were Swedish soldiers, 1225 01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:28.399 there were New Zealanders, I mean all these different people. 1226 01:10:28.680 --> 01:10:30.760 I'm just curious that you could talk about like sort 1227 01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:31.880 of how that mission works. 1228 01:10:32.319 --> 01:10:35.640 My four friends that were killed in KM one was Canadian, 1229 01:10:35.680 --> 01:10:38.880 one was Austrian, one was finished, and one was Chinese, 1230 01:10:40.520 --> 01:10:43.439 which kind of adds to your point of yeah, it's 1231 01:10:43.840 --> 01:10:46.680 a multi multinational, multicultural. 1232 01:10:48.159 --> 01:10:53.760 Organization. But yeah, so does. 1233 01:10:55.479 --> 01:10:58.159 What people aren't aware of, I suppose is the different 1234 01:10:59.079 --> 01:11:04.399 UH levels of peacekeeping and peace enforcement. So you'd say 1235 01:11:04.439 --> 01:11:07.960 the difference to the mission in Lebanon is peacekeeping, and 1236 01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:10.000 that's there with the consent of both parties, i e. 1237 01:11:10.119 --> 01:11:15.199 The Lebanese government and the Israeli government. Now, sometimes did 1238 01:11:15.239 --> 01:11:17.119 I want you to do things? And sometimes they do, 1239 01:11:17.319 --> 01:11:19.680 and sometimes they'll stop you doing things and then blame 1240 01:11:19.720 --> 01:11:21.560 you for not doing what they stopping you from doing. 1241 01:11:22.920 --> 01:11:24.439 But then you go up to peace enforcement. 1242 01:11:25.319 --> 01:11:30.920 So the mainly the missions in Africa are are peace enforcement. 1243 01:11:32.840 --> 01:11:34.319 So some of the ones I've been in, like. 1244 01:11:36.479 --> 01:11:42.840 Central African Republic, Chad, Democratic Republic, at the Congo, they're 1245 01:11:42.840 --> 01:11:47.560 all all peace enforcement. And about two years ago, I 1246 01:11:47.680 --> 01:11:50.279 decided I do a master's in Peace and conflict studies, 1247 01:11:50.640 --> 01:11:54.479 and my initial thought was, if you start off with 1248 01:11:54.560 --> 01:11:58.720 lightly armed peacekeeping, there's a steady progression from peacekeeping to 1249 01:11:58.760 --> 01:12:02.000 peace enforcement, and then you end up with a situation 1250 01:12:02.159 --> 01:12:06.960 like the mission in the Congo where they introduced an 1251 01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:10.520 offensive capability into the mandate of the mission. So they 1252 01:12:10.560 --> 01:12:13.479 formed this force intervention brigade to after the M twenty 1253 01:12:13.479 --> 01:12:15.079 three rebels, which are kind of in the news at 1254 01:12:15.079 --> 01:12:18.159 the moment in the two keypers on the eastern part 1255 01:12:18.199 --> 01:12:24.319 of the d RC. And I thought, right, if you 1256 01:12:24.359 --> 01:12:29.039 take that to its next logical step, it's war fighting. Yeah, 1257 01:12:31.239 --> 01:12:32.560 And I thought this would be a great thing for 1258 01:12:32.600 --> 01:12:35.560 a thesis until I started doing a bit of research. 1259 01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:41.199 And the first U in operation career war was war fighting. 1260 01:12:42.479 --> 01:12:43.239 Not many people know. 1261 01:12:43.600 --> 01:12:46.039 Not many people mentioned that one when when I bring 1262 01:12:46.079 --> 01:12:48.000 it up, and then they go to the Congo where 1263 01:12:48.079 --> 01:12:50.279 it was kind of war certain with the Irish. 1264 01:12:50.600 --> 01:12:52.199 I either know if you've seen the film The Siege. 1265 01:12:51.960 --> 01:12:54.760 Of Janitor, Oh, yeah, that's a great, great movie. 1266 01:12:54.800 --> 01:12:58.119 That's war fighting as well. And then we go to UNIFILM, 1267 01:12:58.159 --> 01:13:01.560 which is peacekeeping through the light armed with the concept 1268 01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:09.560 of content of both parties. So the people will talk 1269 01:13:09.560 --> 01:13:12.720 a lot about UNIFIL being unable to fulfill its mandate, 1270 01:13:12.720 --> 01:13:13.560 and in certain. 1271 01:13:13.239 --> 01:13:14.039 Cases it is. 1272 01:13:15.560 --> 01:13:20.439 But UNIFIL is the first and only UN mission that 1273 01:13:20.600 --> 01:13:28.199 successfully oversaw the maritime agreement of a maritime sea boundary 1274 01:13:28.600 --> 01:13:30.600 between two countries who were still at war, which is 1275 01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:32.600 Lebanon and Israel. There's still at war since nineteen forty 1276 01:13:32.640 --> 01:13:37.119 eight officially, but UNIFIL managed to get both sides to 1277 01:13:37.199 --> 01:13:38.800 agree on their maritime boundary. 1278 01:13:39.239 --> 01:13:43.119 They haven't agreed on the land boundary just yet, but. 1279 01:13:43.079 --> 01:13:46.840 It was significant because of the western coast of northern 1280 01:13:46.880 --> 01:13:51.600 Israel and the southwestern coast of Lebanon. There's huge gas reserves, 1281 01:13:52.920 --> 01:13:56.800 so I suppose money talks, but you know, they've certainly 1282 01:13:56.800 --> 01:13:59.319 been successful in that regard. 1283 01:14:01.479 --> 01:14:04.399 The were you there in the goal on Heights when 1284 01:14:05.000 --> 01:14:07.600 I guess it was like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, there's 1285 01:14:07.600 --> 01:14:11.319 this incident where Isis came across the border and the 1286 01:14:11.359 --> 01:14:15.840 Filipinos blew off that what they consider an illegal order 1287 01:14:15.880 --> 01:14:17.920 when the UN commander told them they surrender. 1288 01:14:20.279 --> 01:14:23.399 No, I was in Jerusalem at that time. Sorry, that 1289 01:14:23.479 --> 01:14:24.560 was twenty fourteen. 1290 01:14:25.000 --> 01:14:27.119 It might have been it had to have been earlier 1291 01:14:27.159 --> 01:14:29.279 on in the Syria War, like fourteen. 1292 01:14:29.560 --> 01:14:31.880 I went back, so I did two years from two 1293 01:14:31.880 --> 01:14:33.600 thousand and five to the thousand and seven, and then 1294 01:14:34.199 --> 01:14:36.119 so and then another two years from fourteen to fifteen. 1295 01:14:36.760 --> 01:14:41.359 But no, I'm aware of that incident, and there was 1296 01:14:41.359 --> 01:14:45.960 a few more. I know the Irish went in and 1297 01:14:46.039 --> 01:14:48.119 rescued a few un troops as well. 1298 01:14:48.439 --> 01:14:51.840 Oh really, yeah, that would have been in. 1299 01:14:53.279 --> 01:14:56.520 I think twenty twelve, twenty thirteen or something like that, 1300 01:14:56.560 --> 01:15:00.159 because the Irish had a unit with undoff with which 1301 01:15:00.199 --> 01:15:04.840 is the u N peacekeeping force between Syria and Israel, 1302 01:15:04.840 --> 01:15:06.680 and on the occupied Goal and so. 1303 01:15:08.600 --> 01:15:09.319 Yeah, but that. 1304 01:15:09.600 --> 01:15:11.920 Was getting because I know colleagues of mine that were 1305 01:15:13.640 --> 01:15:19.199 as unarmed military observers on the weld. Say, I don't 1306 01:15:19.199 --> 01:15:21.000 know if you're familiar with with how things are on 1307 01:15:21.039 --> 01:15:24.439 the goal, but there's a buffer zone and there's the 1308 01:15:24.479 --> 01:15:27.479 Alpha side on the occupator's really side, the Bravo side, 1309 01:15:27.560 --> 01:15:32.760 and he said Syria property. But the the ops on 1310 01:15:32.840 --> 01:15:37.199 the Bravo side generally ervent in a compound there. You know, 1311 01:15:37.239 --> 01:15:40.520 they might have a fence, but when when Isis was 1312 01:15:40.520 --> 01:15:43.239 was walking around, the guys would often see them walking 1313 01:15:43.279 --> 01:15:46.960 with heads and pointing up your next so eventually that 1314 01:15:47.079 --> 01:15:50.359 they were eventually with dron Thanks God, because what's an 1315 01:15:50.439 --> 01:15:53.399 unarmed observer going to do with someone with a carrying 1316 01:15:53.399 --> 01:15:53.760 a head? 1317 01:15:54.640 --> 01:15:54.880 You know? 1318 01:15:55.960 --> 01:15:58.680 Yeah, I I heard it from the from the Filipinos 1319 01:15:58.720 --> 01:16:02.600 told me about it. And this incident where the isis 1320 01:16:03.319 --> 01:16:06.399 dudes came across the border and I think they got 1321 01:16:06.399 --> 01:16:11.319 the Fijians. They captured some Fijian soldiers. Yeah, and uh, 1322 01:16:11.479 --> 01:16:13.560 and then they came to and try to surround the 1323 01:16:13.560 --> 01:16:17.239 Filipino compound and said like, hey, surrender your arms and 1324 01:16:17.239 --> 01:16:21.520 surrender yourself. And they radioed back and the un commander 1325 01:16:21.520 --> 01:16:25.319 told them to surrender, and the Filipinos blew off that 1326 01:16:25.520 --> 01:16:28.479 order and they started talking to Manila instead. They're like, 1327 01:16:28.520 --> 01:16:32.560 we're putting ourselves back under Filipino military control because this 1328 01:16:32.640 --> 01:16:33.159 is nuts. 1329 01:16:33.359 --> 01:16:37.479 Yeah, they I won't go into it too much, but 1330 01:16:38.399 --> 01:16:42.680 certainly in some missions the opposite is the effect when 1331 01:16:42.720 --> 01:16:45.600 truths are trolled to do something. Sometimes they'll ring home 1332 01:16:46.039 --> 01:16:51.760 and home will say no, and that unfortunately has has 1333 01:16:52.800 --> 01:16:55.600 has a card, So it can happen both ways. 1334 01:16:55.600 --> 01:16:56.520 Right, I can see it. 1335 01:16:56.600 --> 01:17:01.640 Yeah, And I mean there's also like incentives for some 1336 01:17:01.720 --> 01:17:03.520 of these militaries to be a part of the u 1337 01:17:03.680 --> 01:17:06.159 N and their soldiers get paid to go on these missions. 1338 01:17:06.159 --> 01:17:08.680 So yeah, it goes both ways, but. 1339 01:17:09.039 --> 01:17:10.439 The government gets paid as well. 1340 01:17:10.640 --> 01:17:13.119 Every piece of equipment they bring with them there's a 1341 01:17:13.960 --> 01:17:17.159 sort of a monetary value attached to us. So when 1342 01:17:17.199 --> 01:17:18.840 they bring all their arm with karens and vehicles and 1343 01:17:18.840 --> 01:17:22.960 stuff like that, there's there's a set monetary value for 1344 01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:28.159 each thing, which we see the UN rents from from 1345 01:17:28.239 --> 01:17:30.680 the TCCs, which is the truth countrip in the countries. 1346 01:17:32.680 --> 01:17:34.520 So yeah, it's for for a lot of certainly a 1347 01:17:34.560 --> 01:17:36.560 lot of the poorer countries are a lot of the 1348 01:17:36.560 --> 01:17:40.399 biggest contributors to UN missions, and that's one of the 1349 01:17:40.439 --> 01:17:41.800 reasons why. 1350 01:17:44.039 --> 01:17:45.920 So in the midst of all this, you went back 1351 01:17:45.960 --> 01:17:49.640 to university and you've got your degree in archaeology, right, 1352 01:17:51.159 --> 01:17:52.279 English and archaeology. 1353 01:17:52.760 --> 01:17:58.199 Yeah, And it's it's strange because we say, if if 1354 01:17:58.239 --> 01:17:59.079 I come through. 1355 01:18:01.199 --> 01:18:02.880 The normal officer. 1356 01:18:04.239 --> 01:18:08.520 School, when you get commissioned, you automatically go to university 1357 01:18:09.159 --> 01:18:10.840 and you kind of go back to the military during 1358 01:18:10.840 --> 01:18:14.560 your time off from university. So because I came up 1359 01:18:14.600 --> 01:18:16.520 through the ranks, I decided I'd look for the same 1360 01:18:17.720 --> 01:18:21.039 rights and entitlements and took a bit of a battle, 1361 01:18:21.079 --> 01:18:25.680 but I had fought my battle and doing a language 1362 01:18:25.720 --> 01:18:30.600 based arts degree and in the main training center in 1363 01:18:30.640 --> 01:18:32.920 the Cara, we had a language school and we also 1364 01:18:32.960 --> 01:18:39.960 had a un training school. Excuse me, So in Ireland, 1365 01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:45.199 in first year arts you do four subjects. So I 1366 01:18:45.279 --> 01:18:51.840 was doing French English geography and I kind of wanted 1367 01:18:51.840 --> 01:18:54.880 to do philosophy because it sounded interesting because at that 1368 01:18:54.960 --> 01:18:57.479 stage I was thirty six, Like people were saying that 1369 01:18:57.479 --> 01:19:00.960 you should do an IT degree. Who's going to hired 1370 01:19:01.000 --> 01:19:03.479 a thirty six year old married guy with a basic 1371 01:19:03.880 --> 01:19:06.600 IT degree? But I couldn't do for last of what 1372 01:19:06.680 --> 01:19:09.000 I did archaeology, and I kind of fell into archaeology. 1373 01:19:09.119 --> 01:19:11.359 I never had to study because even to this day 1374 01:19:11.560 --> 01:19:19.319 I'd read passionately about archaeology. But the when I was 1375 01:19:19.319 --> 01:19:24.359 selected for university, I was in Lebanon, and so I 1376 01:19:24.359 --> 01:19:28.960 think I was three weeks later starting university and in 1377 01:19:29.520 --> 01:19:33.079 the French department you had to have a proven knowledge 1378 01:19:33.079 --> 01:19:37.439 of French before you could be accepted. So I went 1379 01:19:37.479 --> 01:19:39.359 in a uniform and I met the two I see 1380 01:19:39.359 --> 01:19:42.760 in the French department, and I had rehearsed a kind 1381 01:19:42.760 --> 01:19:47.000 of a small speech in French about Lebanon. So we 1382 01:19:47.039 --> 01:19:49.840 spent about ten minutes talking about Lebanon in English, and 1383 01:19:49.880 --> 01:19:52.960 then he switched to Irish Gaelic to say if I 1384 01:19:53.000 --> 01:19:55.600 approached the language from a different perspective, it might be easier. 1385 01:19:56.640 --> 01:19:59.960 And then he said, look, the assessment for first year 1386 01:20:00.039 --> 01:20:02.880 French is on in ten minutes. Go down and do 1387 01:20:02.960 --> 01:20:07.000 it and we'll discuss afterwards. So I went down and 1388 01:20:07.039 --> 01:20:09.119 I was hoping it'll be a translation from French into 1389 01:20:09.199 --> 01:20:12.520 English where you could make a good guess, but no, 1390 01:20:12.600 --> 01:20:14.520 it was a translation from English into French. And it 1391 01:20:14.560 --> 01:20:19.079 wasn't just we' say, normal English. It was Jane Eyre, 1392 01:20:19.359 --> 01:20:23.520 which is sort of, you know, eighteenth century, nineteenth century 1393 01:20:23.760 --> 01:20:28.439 kind of stilted English. This was a Friday, so I 1394 01:20:28.479 --> 01:20:31.680 submitted it, and that evening I got a message on 1395 01:20:31.720 --> 01:20:34.000 the phone saying that it'd be delighted to have me 1396 01:20:34.000 --> 01:20:37.359 in the French department, and I thought I. 1397 01:20:37.319 --> 01:20:38.159 Didn't do that good. 1398 01:20:38.520 --> 01:20:40.760 So on Monday morning he was correcting it in the 1399 01:20:40.760 --> 01:20:43.560 class and I was looking at the corrections, thinking there's 1400 01:20:43.600 --> 01:20:45.880 no way I could have passed this, And then he 1401 01:20:45.960 --> 01:20:51.159 handed out or papers with the corrections on it. And 1402 01:20:51.239 --> 01:20:53.079 I was looking at and he had written a sentence 1403 01:20:53.119 --> 01:20:55.960 at the end, and I couldn't understand it. So I 1404 01:20:56.000 --> 01:20:58.960 wait until everyone else went and I said, excuse me, doctor, 1405 01:21:00.359 --> 01:21:04.680 I can't understand what you've written there, and he goes quevering, 1406 01:21:04.680 --> 01:21:07.439 which is the Irish for kevin Cleeven you're a ma 1407 01:21:07.520 --> 01:21:10.960 Oman and you can't understand your native language, that's that's 1408 01:21:11.479 --> 01:21:14.199 go war g or, which in Irish is may God 1409 01:21:14.239 --> 01:21:17.479 help us. Because sometimes when I'm correcting, words just failed me. 1410 01:21:18.840 --> 01:21:22.960 So I ended up doing my language based arts. Agree 1411 01:21:23.039 --> 01:21:25.920 with the degree in English and archaeology. 1412 01:21:26.520 --> 01:21:29.439 And you are an interest I kind of took away 1413 01:21:29.479 --> 01:21:33.680 from the book. Is primarily like Paleolithic, you know, Stone Age. 1414 01:21:35.439 --> 01:21:37.800 Not Paleolithic. It's an Ealothic. 1415 01:21:38.560 --> 01:21:42.479 It's a very little evidence for Paleolithic in Ur the Mesolythic, 1416 01:21:42.520 --> 01:21:46.439 which is the Middlestone Age, which in Ireland kind of 1417 01:21:46.600 --> 01:21:50.800 you're looking at about just over seven thousand BC, and 1418 01:21:50.840 --> 01:21:55.720 then the Neolithic from about four thousand BC, so that 1419 01:21:55.720 --> 01:21:59.760 that kind of prehistory would be more of what I'm into, 1420 01:22:00.199 --> 01:22:04.920 medieval stuff or anything like that. But yeah, it's it's 1421 01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:07.960 it's always since then, it's been a passion and you know, 1422 01:22:08.079 --> 01:22:10.279 even when I'm out driving, you know, my wife would 1423 01:22:10.319 --> 01:22:12.520 hit me because I'd be looking, why what is that 1424 01:22:12.600 --> 01:22:15.239 hump doing in that field? And you know, and I've 1425 01:22:15.279 --> 01:22:18.159 been lucky, you know. I found loads of stuff, unrecorded 1426 01:22:18.199 --> 01:22:26.119 stuff in Ireland, in Lebanon, in Israel, Chad, in Mali. Actually, 1427 01:22:26.199 --> 01:22:28.439 when when I was in Mali with the European Union, 1428 01:22:30.159 --> 01:22:33.039 there's this place west of the capital. It's a huge 1429 01:22:33.119 --> 01:22:37.119 natural rock art called it like thirty meters quite impressive, 1430 01:22:37.920 --> 01:22:41.520 called the art of Camisan. And at weekends I became 1431 01:22:41.520 --> 01:22:43.439 a kind of a subject matter expert on it. So 1432 01:22:43.479 --> 01:22:46.560 I would bring people out on a Sunday and explain 1433 01:22:46.720 --> 01:22:50.399 the mythology and the archaeology and the geology. But the 1434 01:22:50.479 --> 01:22:52.760 first day I was there, I was finding these little 1435 01:22:53.479 --> 01:22:55.920 balls of metal, which is called slag. 1436 01:22:56.359 --> 01:22:58.439 So say, if you're pouring molten metal. 1437 01:22:58.199 --> 01:23:04.000 Into a I think to make a blade, right the 1438 01:23:04.560 --> 01:23:06.840 molti metal kind of spills out as balls and it's 1439 01:23:06.880 --> 01:23:10.079 it's basically it's evidence of metal working. So I started 1440 01:23:10.079 --> 01:23:14.479 researching the archaeology of Mali and the world expert on 1441 01:23:14.520 --> 01:23:19.960 the archaeology of Mali is the professor naturally Kevin McDonald, 1442 01:23:20.399 --> 01:23:22.880 And I said jeez, I don't believe this. So he's 1443 01:23:22.920 --> 01:23:25.239 in the University of Glasgow, I think. So I sent 1444 01:23:25.319 --> 01:23:27.199 him an email said I'm also Kevin McDonald, I'm be 1445 01:23:27.239 --> 01:23:30.039 an archaeologist and yeah, he yead to get it. So 1446 01:23:30.079 --> 01:23:33.920 we ended up meeting in the capital Bamaco for a 1447 01:23:33.960 --> 01:23:37.600 month later, which was which was kind of interesting. 1448 01:23:39.279 --> 01:23:42.039 Well let's start getting into that a little bit because 1449 01:23:42.119 --> 01:23:45.239 during the two thousands you started these deployments to Africa. 1450 01:23:45.800 --> 01:23:47.680 The first one you thought you were going to Kosovo, 1451 01:23:47.760 --> 01:23:49.159 but they sent you to Chad. 1452 01:23:49.800 --> 01:23:50.079 Yeah. 1453 01:23:50.159 --> 01:23:55.319 Yeah, yeah, someone in HR within the Irish evense Force 1454 01:23:55.359 --> 01:23:59.119 has had a maybe a funny sense of humor because yeah, 1455 01:23:59.199 --> 01:24:02.640 I'd been asked for a company to Kosovo and then 1456 01:24:04.079 --> 01:24:07.560 Chad had that. The guys had been there nearly a 1457 01:24:07.680 --> 01:24:11.279 year and it was the third rotation coming up, and 1458 01:24:11.840 --> 01:24:15.319 it was the Eastern Brigade was the lead brigade, so 1459 01:24:15.359 --> 01:24:18.600 they were supposed to supply all the main appointments and 1460 01:24:18.680 --> 01:24:22.119 for some reason they couldn't. They couldn't fill in a 1461 01:24:22.159 --> 01:24:27.560 Rekie company commander and like normally started with at that 1462 01:24:27.600 --> 01:24:30.680 time in the Irish Defense Forces, to have operational command 1463 01:24:30.680 --> 01:24:33.880 of a company overseas, especially in a challenging environment like 1464 01:24:33.960 --> 01:24:37.479 Chad is seen as a good chick on the box. 1465 01:24:38.119 --> 01:24:43.760 But for some reason they didn't or they couldn't, so 1466 01:24:43.960 --> 01:24:46.680 I was instead of going to Kosovo, I ended up 1467 01:24:46.720 --> 01:24:50.239 going to Chad. And when we were doing our pre 1468 01:24:50.720 --> 01:24:53.640 and that's when I was selected from my two I 1469 01:24:53.720 --> 01:24:56.760 see down to number of riflemen out of one hundred 1470 01:24:56.760 --> 01:25:02.520 and I think twenty troops, I knew one person, wow, 1471 01:25:03.399 --> 01:25:04.760 which is kind of crazy. 1472 01:25:05.359 --> 01:25:07.680 Because the Irish military, I think you point out, it 1473 01:25:08.159 --> 01:25:09.960 was like three brigades and then it went down in 1474 01:25:10.039 --> 01:25:10.920 two yeah. 1475 01:25:11.000 --> 01:25:12.039 Then I went down to two. Yeah. 1476 01:25:12.560 --> 01:25:14.880 So like like even today, I think it's like eight 1477 01:25:14.880 --> 01:25:18.760 thousand dolls in Army, Navy, air Force, so it's it's 1478 01:25:18.760 --> 01:25:21.960 small and generally people would would know or know of 1479 01:25:22.279 --> 01:25:28.279 each other. But Chad was I have to say, I 1480 01:25:28.319 --> 01:25:32.600 wasn't really looking forward to it, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. 1481 01:25:32.880 --> 01:25:37.800 Like myself and the other operational company commander one week 1482 01:25:37.920 --> 01:25:39.800 once for seven days, one of us would be the 1483 01:25:40.600 --> 01:25:43.199 let's say, the guard force for our main camp and 1484 01:25:43.279 --> 01:25:46.439 the other company would do all the patrolling either one day, 1485 01:25:46.439 --> 01:25:49.000 two day, three day, four day patrols, whatever it was required, 1486 01:25:49.760 --> 01:25:54.439 and we used to rotate it and it was great. 1487 01:25:54.640 --> 01:25:56.239 Lost a lot of weight out there, but you know, 1488 01:25:56.319 --> 01:25:59.560 that was the nature of the business, I suppose. But 1489 01:26:00.600 --> 01:26:03.720 at one stage on a Friday evening, I was in 1490 01:26:03.760 --> 01:26:08.920 the camp in our tent. I sort of felt bloated 1491 01:26:09.880 --> 01:26:13.960 and I went down to the medical eight post and 1492 01:26:14.000 --> 01:26:17.880 the medic he was saying, I think your your appendix 1493 01:26:17.920 --> 01:26:20.920 has swollen. So he brought the doctor in and to 1494 01:26:20.960 --> 01:26:25.039 put me on a drip, and about an hour later 1495 01:26:25.840 --> 01:26:29.119 we had a like a big large ten color rubhole 1496 01:26:30.000 --> 01:26:33.800 and we were getting rugby matches sort of sling shotted 1497 01:26:34.079 --> 01:26:36.760 from South Africa up to where we were. So I 1498 01:26:36.800 --> 01:26:38.680 took my drip and went out the back door and 1499 01:26:38.800 --> 01:26:41.359 went down to see one of our rugby teams playing 1500 01:26:42.680 --> 01:26:47.319 against the French team holding my drip, and like all 1501 01:26:47.359 --> 01:26:49.399 my troops were from inner city Dublin and they thought 1502 01:26:49.399 --> 01:26:53.640 I was a looper altogether. But anyway, the next morning 1503 01:26:54.079 --> 01:26:56.039 the doc comes in and he said, I think your 1504 01:26:56.079 --> 01:26:58.279 appendix is going to burst. I'm going to met a 1505 01:26:58.319 --> 01:27:02.960 vacuu to the three hospital up in a Bete and 1506 01:27:03.000 --> 01:27:06.840 I said, okay. So at half six we we the 1507 01:27:06.920 --> 01:27:10.920 an my chapper based with us at half six, he said, 1508 01:27:11.319 --> 01:27:13.920 fly the chapper at half aged. 1509 01:27:13.960 --> 01:27:15.039 The chief financial. 1510 01:27:14.760 --> 01:27:18.279 Officer said, fly the chapper, which kind which kind of 1511 01:27:18.279 --> 01:27:22.279 says a lot. But the Level three hospital, it was 1512 01:27:22.279 --> 01:27:27.640 attempted hospital and was ran by Norwegian, so it was really, really, 1513 01:27:28.279 --> 01:27:32.399 really good. So I wheeled into the well, say, the 1514 01:27:33.319 --> 01:27:37.159 admissions area, and this surgeon comes over and he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1515 01:27:37.199 --> 01:27:40.199 we're going to remove your appendix. And I said, can 1516 01:27:40.239 --> 01:27:42.760 I get a phone call or the phone and ring 1517 01:27:42.760 --> 01:27:47.079 my wife because she knew I was in the in 1518 01:27:47.159 --> 01:27:50.319 the medical aid post in gods Bider and now I'm 1519 01:27:50.720 --> 01:27:54.720 up in the main hospital. So I rang her anyway, 1520 01:27:54.760 --> 01:28:00.680 and she was kind of going, only you. So while 1521 01:28:00.680 --> 01:28:04.279 I'm lying on stretcher, the surgeon is behind me talking 1522 01:28:04.319 --> 01:28:09.199 to the anesthetist who's Slovakian, and he said, okay, so 1523 01:28:09.239 --> 01:28:11.920 we're agreed. We're going to carry out this procedure according 1524 01:28:11.920 --> 01:28:16.640 to the WHO guidelines. And I said what And then 1525 01:28:16.640 --> 01:28:18.399 he comes around he said, I'm terribly sorry. I shouldn't 1526 01:28:18.399 --> 01:28:21.319 talk behind your back. I've discussed with my colleague. We're 1527 01:28:21.359 --> 01:28:23.840 going to carry out this procedure according to the World 1528 01:28:23.880 --> 01:28:28.319 Health Organization guidelines. And I said, was this some other 1529 01:28:28.359 --> 01:28:33.359 way you were thinking of doing. Then into the operat 1530 01:28:33.359 --> 01:28:35.600 from ten to ten nine eighth. Next thing you wake 1531 01:28:35.680 --> 01:28:36.800 up with the two guys are at the end of 1532 01:28:36.800 --> 01:28:40.199 the bed and your man goes, Kevin, how are you feeling? 1533 01:28:40.199 --> 01:28:43.439 And I said, I'm grand, you're irish. You'll have a 1534 01:28:43.439 --> 01:28:45.800 beer now. We were strictly dry in Chad. You couldn't 1535 01:28:45.800 --> 01:28:48.319 take outcome. But of course I think I'm in lalla 1536 01:28:48.399 --> 01:28:50.279 Land with the anesthetic and Sai yes, second right, a 1537 01:28:50.319 --> 01:28:52.279 bit of a beer. And he goes back with a 1538 01:28:52.279 --> 01:28:54.520 can of beer. And of course I things up my 1539 01:28:54.560 --> 01:28:57.159 nose and up the chest and whatever. And I said, 1540 01:28:57.199 --> 01:28:58.880 look in my bag there there's a camera. Would you 1541 01:28:58.920 --> 01:29:01.720 mind ever taking a picture me? Because no one in 1542 01:29:01.760 --> 01:29:03.479 Ireland will ever believe that the minute I can run 1543 01:29:03.520 --> 01:29:07.359 from surgery in Africa, I was handled a beer, but 1544 01:29:07.680 --> 01:29:10.600 I have to say it was quite nice. And then 1545 01:29:10.600 --> 01:29:13.520 it was a sharifs the next day at theay In hospital. 1546 01:29:14.399 --> 01:29:18.399 There's getting me appendix of you know, all this reminded me. 1547 01:29:18.600 --> 01:29:21.039 I mean, there's a there's a digression here that I 1548 01:29:21.800 --> 01:29:25.399 forgot about, just just remembered that I got to ask 1549 01:29:25.439 --> 01:29:27.680 you about because it was such a funny part of 1550 01:29:27.720 --> 01:29:30.039 your book, tell us about becoming a care bear. 1551 01:29:34.079 --> 01:29:36.640 Okay, So I don't know if you have something similar 1552 01:29:36.680 --> 01:29:41.159 in in the US, But in the Irish Defense Forces, 1553 01:29:41.159 --> 01:29:44.560 every barracks has an n c O whose full time 1554 01:29:44.680 --> 01:29:52.920 job is to provide counseling, grief counseling, addiction counseling, financial counseling, 1555 01:29:53.680 --> 01:29:53.920 all that. 1556 01:29:53.960 --> 01:29:54.439 Kind of stuff. 1557 01:29:54.439 --> 01:29:57.960 Like they're essentially a social worker and they're affectionately known 1558 01:29:57.960 --> 01:29:58.800 as the care bears. 1559 01:30:00.960 --> 01:30:06.560 So anyway, the the officer in charge. 1560 01:30:06.640 --> 01:30:10.920 Of all the care bearers in the brigade was retiring 1561 01:30:11.520 --> 01:30:16.239 and he approached me and he said, Kevin, the GOC, 1562 01:30:16.439 --> 01:30:20.680 the General Officer commanding brigade commander, has asked me. He 1563 01:30:20.720 --> 01:30:22.279 knows I'm retired, and he's asked me to think of 1564 01:30:22.319 --> 01:30:26.159 someone that might be suitable. And I'm going, you're not 1565 01:30:26.159 --> 01:30:29.760 thinking to me, are you, Because you know SF and 1566 01:30:29.800 --> 01:30:32.840 all that kind of crazy stuff. I'm not exactly a 1567 01:30:32.880 --> 01:30:36.079 tree hugger. And he said, yeah, but people might sort of, 1568 01:30:36.600 --> 01:30:40.399 I suppose resonate with you. And I said, I don't 1569 01:30:40.399 --> 01:30:44.239 think someone and he said, well, he said, if there 1570 01:30:44.279 --> 01:30:47.399 was a league table for the amount of subsistence you 1571 01:30:47.479 --> 01:30:49.520 can claim. In other words, if you're away for nine hours, 1572 01:30:49.560 --> 01:30:51.880 you get X amount of euros. He said, if there 1573 01:30:51.920 --> 01:30:54.439 was a leade table, you'd be probably on the top 1574 01:30:54.479 --> 01:30:56.279 of the lead table. Plus you'll get paid as a 1575 01:30:56.319 --> 01:30:58.720 lieutnant colonel. I said, okay, right, I'll give it a go. 1576 01:30:59.279 --> 01:31:01.960 And you had to get you had to have a 1577 01:31:02.000 --> 01:31:07.399 sort of diploma to be in this, which meant every month. 1578 01:31:07.800 --> 01:31:11.239 I think it was two three days in the university 1579 01:31:11.239 --> 01:31:15.840 in Dublin. And after my first three days away I 1580 01:31:16.439 --> 01:31:19.239 came back and the kids were probably eight and ten 1581 01:31:19.319 --> 01:31:20.960 or something like that, and. 1582 01:31:23.359 --> 01:31:26.159 The baiting the head off each other. So I came 1583 01:31:26.199 --> 01:31:27.319 in with all guns blazing. 1584 01:31:28.039 --> 01:31:30.840 You if you ever kicked your sister, and you if 1585 01:31:30.880 --> 01:31:33.039 you ever bite your brother, blah blah blah. 1586 01:31:33.079 --> 01:31:35.960 And my son said. 1587 01:31:36.159 --> 01:31:38.680 Dad, that care bears course doesn't have much of an 1588 01:31:38.680 --> 01:31:44.039 effect on you, which I thought was fairly sharp from 1589 01:31:44.159 --> 01:31:44.880 from from him. 1590 01:31:46.359 --> 01:31:48.079 Yeah, that I lasked. 1591 01:31:47.880 --> 01:31:52.479 It probably a year before went overseas again. 1592 01:31:53.319 --> 01:31:55.479 Yeah, I was, I was laughing reading that part of 1593 01:31:55.479 --> 01:31:56.439 the book. That's great. 1594 01:31:58.000 --> 01:32:03.600 Actually one of my last when when we were restructured 1595 01:32:03.600 --> 01:32:08.319 from three brigades down to two, the the brigade commander 1596 01:32:08.479 --> 01:32:14.439 was it was an interesting guy, tough guy, but I 1597 01:32:14.680 --> 01:32:16.600 got on well with him. But I come up to 1598 01:32:16.640 --> 01:32:20.279 brief him about something and he was getting into his 1599 01:32:20.560 --> 01:32:24.439 best uniform and he told me he was going over 1600 01:32:24.479 --> 01:32:26.520 to the dis barracks that was being closed as parts 1601 01:32:26.600 --> 01:32:30.439 the restructuring, and he was going to attend the last 1602 01:32:30.600 --> 01:32:37.359 Mass in the Garrison Church. And without even thinking, I 1603 01:32:37.479 --> 01:32:41.920 just said, we can. 1604 01:32:41.880 --> 01:32:45.319 Do a lot of things. 1605 01:32:46.760 --> 01:32:48.159 Well, the thing it's audio. 1606 01:32:47.960 --> 01:32:51.279 Good glasses like that should have measure coming to be 1607 01:32:51.319 --> 01:32:52.560 talking to which thing like that? 1608 01:32:53.039 --> 01:32:53.960 He saw the funny side of it. 1609 01:32:55.279 --> 01:32:58.279 Sorry, your your audio cut out there for just one second, Kevin, 1610 01:32:58.319 --> 01:32:59.760 could could you just say that part again? 1611 01:33:00.399 --> 01:33:02.399 He asked about going to last mass. 1612 01:33:03.159 --> 01:33:04.680 Yeah, so he was going to the last Mass in 1613 01:33:04.720 --> 01:33:07.960 the Garrison Church, in the barracks that was being closed 1614 01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:09.119 as part of restructuring. 1615 01:33:10.600 --> 01:33:11.720 And that's what he told me. 1616 01:33:11.760 --> 01:33:16.079 And without even thinking I said to him, I said, sir, 1617 01:33:16.159 --> 01:33:17.880 in the care bears, we can do a lot of things, 1618 01:33:18.119 --> 01:33:21.159 but saving your soul is in one of them. And 1619 01:33:21.199 --> 01:33:23.159 then you could see him looking at me like that 1620 01:33:23.239 --> 01:33:26.119 over the glasses, and I thought, I have I pushed 1621 01:33:26.119 --> 01:33:28.560 it too far, but then he kind of started laughing 1622 01:33:28.560 --> 01:33:31.079 a bit, So yes, it's not exactly how a major 1623 01:33:31.079 --> 01:33:32.199 should invest in general. 1624 01:33:33.720 --> 01:33:36.279 And then you end up in Western Sahara. 1625 01:33:36.399 --> 01:33:39.279 This was another interesting sort of like peacekeeping or peace 1626 01:33:39.399 --> 01:33:43.119 enforcement operation that I've never really neither neither. 1627 01:33:44.800 --> 01:33:48.239 The mission in Western Sahara is the only UN mission 1628 01:33:48.560 --> 01:33:53.560 whose sole purpose is to organize a referendum. So a 1629 01:33:53.560 --> 01:34:01.479 bit of background Western Sahara the Morocco and to the 1630 01:34:01.479 --> 01:34:06.199 south Mauritanian and to the east Algeria. And so when 1631 01:34:06.199 --> 01:34:12.119 the Spanish withdrew in seventy eight something like that, the 1632 01:34:12.119 --> 01:34:14.680 Moroccans invaded from the north, and the Mauritanians in the south, 1633 01:34:15.039 --> 01:34:17.800 and the local Satarawi people were kind of caught in 1634 01:34:17.840 --> 01:34:24.720 the middle, and they developed a sort of an insurgent 1635 01:34:24.720 --> 01:34:29.079 group called the Polisario and they were extremely effective hit 1636 01:34:29.119 --> 01:34:32.760 and run tactic against the Moroccans. They even drove down 1637 01:34:32.760 --> 01:34:36.760 to lucashot In in Mauritanian shot up the capital of Mauritanian. 1638 01:34:37.119 --> 01:34:39.119 And after that the Mauritanians like, we're out of here. 1639 01:34:40.760 --> 01:34:44.279 But so effective they were that the Jordanian army started 1640 01:34:44.279 --> 01:34:47.720 building what is today the most the most longest modern 1641 01:34:47.800 --> 01:34:50.760 construction in the world. The built was known as the Burn, 1642 01:34:51.840 --> 01:34:54.439 which kind of starts two hundred miles inside in Morocco 1643 01:34:54.960 --> 01:34:59.600 and goes diagonally across the country to the southeast southwestern border, 1644 01:34:59.640 --> 01:35:04.600 with Tenure effectively claiming I suppose two thirds of the territory. 1645 01:35:05.239 --> 01:35:09.760 And it's it's like something from you know, First World War. 1646 01:35:10.520 --> 01:35:14.359 I these ditches and burns and platoon positions and company positions, 1647 01:35:14.399 --> 01:35:19.600 and but what was what was interesting? And of course 1648 01:35:20.600 --> 01:35:23.359 the biggest fisheries off Western Africa, off the shore, six 1649 01:35:23.520 --> 01:35:28.520 largest potash deposits in the world. But yeah, the sole 1650 01:35:28.560 --> 01:35:35.760 purpose was to have a referendum to decide on nationally suppose. 1651 01:35:36.920 --> 01:35:40.239 And of course the problem is that the Satawi people 1652 01:35:42.359 --> 01:35:48.119 aren't that many and it's been colonized by by people 1653 01:35:48.119 --> 01:35:51.600 from Morocco, so I can't see a referendum anytime soon. 1654 01:35:52.479 --> 01:35:57.000 But from an archaeological point of view, it was like heaven. 1655 01:35:57.520 --> 01:35:59.600 I could drive for three hours in any direction, stop, 1656 01:35:59.680 --> 01:36:02.359 get out of the car, and the main the area 1657 01:36:02.359 --> 01:36:04.960 that we were mainly operating is called Hamada, which is 1658 01:36:05.000 --> 01:36:07.399 like a rocket desert. It's not like all the big sandals. 1659 01:36:08.520 --> 01:36:11.119 But I could stop and pick up flint darrowheads. I 1660 01:36:11.119 --> 01:36:16.920 was finding prehistoric tunes. Yeah, it was western Sahara was 1661 01:36:17.000 --> 01:36:18.239 it was a pretty amazing place. 1662 01:36:20.199 --> 01:36:21.359 And then you also did Mali. 1663 01:36:22.680 --> 01:36:23.239 I did Mali. 1664 01:36:23.399 --> 01:36:26.319 Yeah, Maley was the only non UN mission I've done, 1665 01:36:26.359 --> 01:36:29.159 which is it was the European Union Training Mission. 1666 01:36:30.840 --> 01:36:34.119 And I was working in the headquarters. Actually an interesting, 1667 01:36:34.680 --> 01:36:35.479 interesting story. 1668 01:36:35.600 --> 01:36:39.279 My my boss was a British left in colonel and 1669 01:36:39.359 --> 01:36:42.319 we actually became we said, are very good friends. But 1670 01:36:42.439 --> 01:36:46.279 he said to me one day, he said, mac, dear boy, 1671 01:36:46.399 --> 01:36:49.880 have you heard I've challenged the hun to a shoot competition. No, 1672 01:36:50.000 --> 01:36:52.079 the hunt is a drogatory word for for the for 1673 01:36:52.119 --> 01:36:54.760 the Germans. And I said, I did jab with this 1674 01:36:55.720 --> 01:36:59.520 the six German offices's only four of v And he said, oh, 1675 01:36:59.520 --> 01:37:01.960 dear boy, one will shoot with us one one. And 1676 01:37:02.000 --> 01:37:05.720 I said, I've been my country has been oppressed by 1677 01:37:05.800 --> 01:37:07.840 ye guys for eight hundred years. Do you not think 1678 01:37:07.880 --> 01:37:10.239 I'd have a subtle interest in seeing you're getting your 1679 01:37:10.319 --> 01:37:11.760 arses whooped by the Germans? 1680 01:37:12.720 --> 01:37:14.199 And he said there's more, And I said, I know, 1681 01:37:14.439 --> 01:37:15.279 I know there's more. 1682 01:37:15.680 --> 01:37:18.800 So when he challenged the German saying your officer to 1683 01:37:18.800 --> 01:37:23.520 a shooting competition, he decided that the outcome of the 1684 01:37:23.520 --> 01:37:27.000 shooting competition would determine the outcome of World War one, 1685 01:37:27.560 --> 01:37:30.279 World War two and the nineteen sixty six World Cup 1686 01:37:30.319 --> 01:37:35.720 were England that Germany. Anyway, I decided I'd rejoin the 1687 01:37:35.720 --> 01:37:40.439 comment and shot with him and we won. But this 1688 01:37:40.479 --> 01:37:44.960 guy was such a character. There's a picture taken afterwards 1689 01:37:45.359 --> 01:37:48.840 and there's six of us standing like that in uniform, 1690 01:37:49.359 --> 01:37:54.800 and in front of us six German seating them. You know, 1691 01:37:54.920 --> 01:37:57.520 can you imagine that when viral It didn't put it, 1692 01:37:57.640 --> 01:37:59.359 but he was that kind of a guy that people 1693 01:37:59.399 --> 01:38:02.880 just grab It was like an extremely, extremely great character. 1694 01:38:04.159 --> 01:38:06.000 And it was also great that this was the first 1695 01:38:06.000 --> 01:38:08.039 time that the Irish Army and the British Army deplied together. 1696 01:38:09.520 --> 01:38:13.159 Interesting and it was really good, I have to say, 1697 01:38:13.880 --> 01:38:15.560 great to see that we kind of moved past all 1698 01:38:15.560 --> 01:38:17.159 that sort of stuff. 1699 01:38:17.760 --> 01:38:19.399 And tell us a little bit about you know, you 1700 01:38:19.520 --> 01:38:22.520 retire from the military, you hit like your mandatory retirement 1701 01:38:22.600 --> 01:38:25.680 age and start working for the un like as an 1702 01:38:25.680 --> 01:38:26.359 actual job. 1703 01:38:27.640 --> 01:38:32.239 Yeah, so in the Irish Defense Forces, as as a major, 1704 01:38:33.039 --> 01:38:35.720 you have to retire at fifty six. And obviously because 1705 01:38:35.760 --> 01:38:40.359 I took the Scenic group to getting commissioned, I didn't 1706 01:38:40.399 --> 01:38:47.079 really have the opportunity to go much higher. But yeah, 1707 01:38:47.159 --> 01:38:49.720 I kind of knew I was never going to take 1708 01:38:49.800 --> 01:38:56.279 up golf, and I eventually before I finished in Jerusalem, 1709 01:38:57.159 --> 01:38:59.840 I knew I had an offer of them. Just what 1710 01:39:00.000 --> 01:39:00.359 I been in. 1711 01:39:01.439 --> 01:39:01.680 Sorry. 1712 01:39:01.800 --> 01:39:04.680 I retired officially at the end of November in twenty sixteen, 1713 01:39:05.399 --> 01:39:08.920 and I had a three month contract lined up as 1714 01:39:09.000 --> 01:39:12.119 Chief Close Protection with the mission in the Central African Republic, 1715 01:39:14.399 --> 01:39:21.079 and then I did about a month of that, and 1716 01:39:21.199 --> 01:39:25.399 then I went in as Chief Security Operations and I 1717 01:39:25.439 --> 01:39:27.279 got an extra three month extension, and that was going 1718 01:39:27.319 --> 01:39:29.960 to be it because the UN doesn't like these small contracts. 1719 01:39:31.000 --> 01:39:33.920 And then actually an American guy who was the regional 1720 01:39:33.960 --> 01:39:38.159 security officer in SECTORIST went home and leave and said, 1721 01:39:38.560 --> 01:39:40.319 thank you, you went, I'm not going back. 1722 01:39:40.600 --> 01:39:43.239 So I get a phone call that said would'd be interested. 1723 01:39:42.920 --> 01:39:46.560 In going to Debrien as a regional security officer And 1724 01:39:46.560 --> 01:39:48.159 I said, look, if it's only for a week or two, 1725 01:39:48.279 --> 01:39:50.640 I said, I'm not really because you have to be 1726 01:39:50.680 --> 01:39:52.920 in a mission thirty days before you leave. And I 1727 01:39:53.039 --> 01:39:57.399 paid my thirty days rent in the capitol, and I said, 1728 01:39:57.399 --> 01:40:01.279 would what about six months? So I went and six 1729 01:40:01.319 --> 01:40:04.479 months became eighteen months and two years is the most 1730 01:40:04.520 --> 01:40:08.520 you can do? As a we said, a temporary, full 1731 01:40:08.560 --> 01:40:16.760 time employee. So then I left in twenty nine to nineteen, 1732 01:40:17.640 --> 01:40:19.640 and then a few months later they rang and said 1733 01:40:19.640 --> 01:40:21.920 would I come back again? 1734 01:40:21.960 --> 01:40:22.840 And I've got another two. 1735 01:40:22.720 --> 01:40:26.199 Months, which was which is, But Karl was full on, 1736 01:40:26.399 --> 01:40:29.439 like oh, I saw more violence in Kara than I 1737 01:40:29.439 --> 01:40:32.920 did in nearly any other place when when I went 1738 01:40:33.039 --> 01:40:38.279 up as the regional security officer to an area spigger 1739 01:40:38.319 --> 01:40:40.359 than Ireland, I suppose, but I was there on my 1740 01:40:40.399 --> 01:40:45.720 own and as a would say security advisor, I was 1741 01:40:45.760 --> 01:40:50.199 responsible for giving security advice to the international Civilian staff, 1742 01:40:50.279 --> 01:40:53.359 the National Civilian Staff what we call the MSOs, the 1743 01:40:53.359 --> 01:40:56.680 military service officers that are working in the headquarters, the 1744 01:40:56.800 --> 01:41:02.199 UN Police, essentially any one that that you weren't part 1745 01:41:02.239 --> 01:41:06.600 of the battalions like the TCCs. So in my first week, 1746 01:41:07.399 --> 01:41:11.680 one ethnic group attacked another ethnic group and in three hours, 1747 01:41:11.680 --> 01:41:14.520 those ninety five people killed and not just killed the group. 1748 01:41:18.119 --> 01:41:22.479 So yeah, And in the base that that I was 1749 01:41:22.479 --> 01:41:27.079 living in, in front of the base, we had partly 1750 01:41:27.079 --> 01:41:31.000 three thousand idp's and sometimes the likeness and sometimes they didn't, 1751 01:41:32.720 --> 01:41:35.920 and if they didn't, you could get grenades coming in, 1752 01:41:36.000 --> 01:41:41.920 you get bodies coming over the wall. Yeah, brio was 1753 01:41:41.920 --> 01:41:45.680 was The first two years were were sort of were interesting. 1754 01:41:46.079 --> 01:41:48.000 And then when I came back, I was in Sector 1755 01:41:48.039 --> 01:41:51.800 West near the Cameroonian border, and for Asian once it 1756 01:41:51.920 --> 01:41:56.079 was sleepy valley, nothing like crickets sort of thing. And 1757 01:41:57.520 --> 01:42:02.399 then as the elections were coming close, Yes, a disparate 1758 01:42:02.479 --> 01:42:05.800 group of rebel groups who normally will be fighting each 1759 01:42:05.800 --> 01:42:12.439 other kind of came together and they started advancing on 1760 01:42:12.920 --> 01:42:15.399 would say, the city that I was. We were just 1761 01:42:15.399 --> 01:42:18.159 at the edge of it with and this straddles the 1762 01:42:18.199 --> 01:42:22.119 main highway from Cameroon into the capital, Banging and everything 1763 01:42:22.119 --> 01:42:25.520 that that kind of is sold in Bangy comes along 1764 01:42:25.560 --> 01:42:30.279 that highway. And I remember as a as a as 1765 01:42:30.279 --> 01:42:34.680 a kid reading the word yeah ask I suppose, but 1766 01:42:34.800 --> 01:42:38.640 reading these sort of news reports, rebels advanced on the 1767 01:42:38.640 --> 01:42:42.520 strategic city of Black and I often wondered what it'd 1768 01:42:42.520 --> 01:42:44.279 be like to be in that strategic city when the 1769 01:42:44.279 --> 01:42:48.359 rebels are advancing. I found out very quickly not particularly 1770 01:42:48.439 --> 01:42:53.319 pleasant experience. But I know at one stage I went 1771 01:42:53.359 --> 01:42:59.000 in with the the senior civilian administrator for the u 1772 01:42:59.119 --> 01:43:03.199 N and the senior military officer and that the rebels 1773 01:43:03.199 --> 01:43:05.439 are taking the city at this stage, so a lot 1774 01:43:05.520 --> 01:43:10.079 of the locals were in. There were IDPs in the 1775 01:43:10.079 --> 01:43:14.159 schools and hospitals, so we went in to assess the situation. 1776 01:43:14.319 --> 01:43:17.039 And as we're coming back up this main road, I 1777 01:43:17.119 --> 01:43:22.600 counted about and twenty rebels walking out either side of 1778 01:43:22.600 --> 01:43:28.840 the road with aka's mmgs orpgs, and at the end 1779 01:43:28.880 --> 01:43:31.039 of the we'd say the city our base is on 1780 01:43:31.079 --> 01:43:35.560 the left, and just beyond it was an army base. 1781 01:43:37.439 --> 01:43:39.960 So we swung off into our base. I immediately went 1782 01:43:40.000 --> 01:43:42.399 to the radio room to tell them to broadcast on 1783 01:43:42.439 --> 01:43:46.439 the loudspeaker. Everyone go immediately to the bunkers, and sure enough, 1784 01:43:46.560 --> 01:43:50.840 ten minutes later, boom, boom boom. And in the space 1785 01:43:50.880 --> 01:43:54.640 of about an hour and a half, I counted about 1786 01:43:56.199 --> 01:44:01.800 thirty five orpgs being fired from both sides and then no, 1787 01:44:02.159 --> 01:44:04.560 we weren't being targeted. We were just getting caught from 1788 01:44:04.560 --> 01:44:06.840 the cross fire. So we had two. 1789 01:44:09.079 --> 01:44:12.640 Attack helicopters, so the decision was. 1790 01:44:12.600 --> 01:44:15.880 Made that we launched them to push the rebels away 1791 01:44:15.920 --> 01:44:18.680 from our base because we were getting the crossfire coming 1792 01:44:18.720 --> 01:44:23.399 from the facta from the from the army, and that 1793 01:44:23.399 --> 01:44:25.520 that in itself getting the mount of our base to 1794 01:44:25.520 --> 01:44:29.079 the HELI paddles was kind of we have been interesting, 1795 01:44:29.840 --> 01:44:37.239 and they fired about twenty rockets. And also inside in 1796 01:44:37.279 --> 01:44:41.800 our base we had a French army detachment who were 1797 01:44:41.880 --> 01:44:46.840 with the EU training parts of the government the army. 1798 01:44:48.399 --> 01:44:52.560 And because they were they were. 1799 01:44:54.199 --> 01:44:56.439 I had told them privately, if we get attacked, I 1800 01:44:56.520 --> 01:44:59.359 gladly take your support. But I couldn't. I couldn't officially, 1801 01:44:59.399 --> 01:45:03.119 but they were under our support. But I was down 1802 01:45:03.359 --> 01:45:07.479 checking on in the middle of the battle, because I 1803 01:45:07.560 --> 01:45:09.399 kept going around, checking the bunkers and checking the main 1804 01:45:09.439 --> 01:45:13.640 gate and checking this the usual stuff. And I was 1805 01:45:13.680 --> 01:45:18.239 speaking to the French commander and they said, given, you 1806 01:45:18.279 --> 01:45:21.640 will hear something in the next few minutes. In about 1807 01:45:21.680 --> 01:45:24.560 five minutes, two mirages came from charge, so. 1808 01:45:25.319 --> 01:45:26.359 About one hundred feet. 1809 01:45:26.960 --> 01:45:31.039 The noise was incredible, and I think there was just 1810 01:45:31.039 --> 01:45:33.319 a show of force to the rebels. I don't think. 1811 01:45:33.560 --> 01:45:35.039 I don't think I made a blind bit of difference 1812 01:45:35.039 --> 01:45:41.840 to them. Yeah, and then eventually the Russians got involved Wagner, 1813 01:45:42.079 --> 01:45:48.159 and that kind of pushed them back. Actually, when I 1814 01:45:48.199 --> 01:45:56.000 was when I was in Brea, Wagner arrived and because 1815 01:45:56.000 --> 01:45:59.760 they were a player, I went out and they were 1816 01:45:59.760 --> 01:46:03.000 built in them they were building a field hospital, but 1817 01:46:03.039 --> 01:46:05.359 it wasn't a field hospital with a small military detachment. 1818 01:46:05.680 --> 01:46:07.720 It was a big military base with a small field hospital, 1819 01:46:08.399 --> 01:46:13.359 so subtle difference. But I the their their chief security 1820 01:46:13.359 --> 01:46:16.520 guy in car was organizing the set up with this. 1821 01:46:17.920 --> 01:46:19.800 So I rocked up to the gate and did an 1822 01:46:19.840 --> 01:46:23.159 interpret there and went in and I met him and 1823 01:46:23.880 --> 01:46:28.039 he had a big long respute and beard, so and 1824 01:46:28.399 --> 01:46:31.399 like he was, he was tough for so I just 1825 01:46:31.439 --> 01:46:37.760 said a SPADs net and he kind of so I 1826 01:46:37.880 --> 01:46:40.359 take out my phone and I show him a picture 1827 01:46:40.359 --> 01:46:42.800 of me back in the day with the diving gear 1828 01:46:42.800 --> 01:46:45.239 and the h K fifty three, and I said, I'm 1829 01:46:45.800 --> 01:46:49.199 ex Irish spetsnet. Then he takes out his phone and 1830 01:46:49.199 --> 01:46:51.560 he shows me a picture of him in Syria with 1831 01:46:51.680 --> 01:46:58.720 some of the really really incredible stuff. But I probably 1832 01:46:58.760 --> 01:47:01.520 want that base has been set up because there's a 1833 01:47:01.520 --> 01:47:03.399 lot of other rebel groups in the area, so I 1834 01:47:03.479 --> 01:47:06.680 wanted to kind of make sure he knew who's the 1835 01:47:06.680 --> 01:47:10.159 players in each one of them. And so I met 1836 01:47:10.199 --> 01:47:15.119 him anyway, and on my camp I had the ranger tab, 1837 01:47:15.840 --> 01:47:19.479 which is the Irish means worrior of the fen, and 1838 01:47:19.520 --> 01:47:23.600 I could see him looking at it, and so eventually 1839 01:47:23.640 --> 01:47:25.680 he takes off his hat and he gives me a 1840 01:47:25.720 --> 01:47:29.840 spets Netz tab. So of course I had to give 1841 01:47:29.920 --> 01:47:33.760 him tab. And he used to wear it on the 1842 01:47:33.800 --> 01:47:37.920 back of his of his of his speaker, and I 1843 01:47:39.680 --> 01:47:42.479 would often think that if he's down in BANGI and 1844 01:47:42.520 --> 01:47:44.760 some of your guys are kind of trying to figure 1845 01:47:44.760 --> 01:47:47.640 out who's who in and taking pictures of Wagner guys 1846 01:47:48.199 --> 01:47:50.880 and to see an Irish Special Forces tab on his 1847 01:47:51.000 --> 01:47:53.039 head that he wondered how how it got there? 1848 01:47:55.079 --> 01:47:58.760 Yeah, the the We did an interview a few like 1849 01:47:59.000 --> 01:48:01.680 maybe two months ago now with John Leckner, who just 1850 01:48:01.720 --> 01:48:05.520 wrote that book that is our business about the Yeah, 1851 01:48:05.680 --> 01:48:08.560 oh yeah really, yeah, people if they want to we 1852 01:48:08.600 --> 01:48:11.039 talk all about this subject in that interview of course, 1853 01:48:11.039 --> 01:48:14.199 if people want to go check that out. And so 1854 01:48:14.279 --> 01:48:17.079 this brings us sort of like today, Uh, you're now 1855 01:48:17.119 --> 01:48:20.159 in South Sudan. How did you wind up there? 1856 01:48:22.079 --> 01:48:24.920 Well, my my employment in Kara was coming to a 1857 01:48:24.960 --> 01:48:27.720 close and I had applied for the position here and 1858 01:48:28.359 --> 01:48:29.279 I managed to get it. 1859 01:48:29.279 --> 01:48:31.279 But it's kind of strange. 1860 01:48:32.119 --> 01:48:34.880 For the four years in Car, I was like at 1861 01:48:34.880 --> 01:48:37.359 the point the end of the spear and no one 1862 01:48:37.960 --> 01:48:39.800 as we say in the Arish, I'm in the rear 1863 01:48:39.840 --> 01:48:44.119 with the gear, I'm in the head gorgeous, So it's 1864 01:48:44.159 --> 01:48:50.880 it's uh, it's different, it's different. I haven't I haven't 1865 01:48:50.880 --> 01:48:55.640 really heard gunfire and fear, which there's no bad thing either. 1866 01:48:58.239 --> 01:49:01.600 Yeah, irishire the second time in November this year. 1867 01:49:01.960 --> 01:49:07.239 Wow, And unless I get some contract work. But my 1868 01:49:07.239 --> 01:49:12.000 my fallback is I'm going to start doing archaeological tours 1869 01:49:12.439 --> 01:49:17.600 really where yeah, because in probably in Ireland, but it depends. 1870 01:49:17.760 --> 01:49:20.600 Like when when I was living in in Tier in Lebanon, 1871 01:49:20.640 --> 01:49:24.399 I used to give tours nearly every weekend because the 1872 01:49:24.399 --> 01:49:29.000 the second largest hippodrome of Roman racing cherries racing arena 1873 01:49:29.239 --> 01:49:32.399 in the world is in Tier. Actually that's where the 1874 01:49:32.399 --> 01:49:35.640 film the film then hurt or you're probably have an 1875 01:49:35.680 --> 01:49:36.640 age that you probably don't know. 1876 01:49:37.560 --> 01:49:44.119 I do remember, but yeah, that that's of course. 1877 01:49:44.159 --> 01:49:45.399 I might's write another book as well. 1878 01:49:46.960 --> 01:49:48.720 Yeah, I was gonna say, Kevin, like, you don't really 1879 01:49:48.760 --> 01:49:51.520 strike me as the type of guy that's a retiree, 1880 01:49:51.640 --> 01:49:52.039 Like I don't. 1881 01:49:52.079 --> 01:49:53.079 I don't know if I. 1882 01:49:54.760 --> 01:49:56.399 Think you even say in the book like I'm not 1883 01:49:56.439 --> 01:49:58.000 the type of person to just sit on the beach 1884 01:49:58.039 --> 01:49:58.560 and relax. 1885 01:49:59.399 --> 01:50:01.960 No, I I never was either. You know, I always have. 1886 01:50:02.000 --> 01:50:09.600 To be doing something, so I definitely, I definitely have 1887 01:50:09.640 --> 01:50:12.760 to do something because I've refused to take up golf 1888 01:50:13.279 --> 01:50:15.399 and I'm still have that frame of mind that I 1889 01:50:15.439 --> 01:50:16.119 don't intend to. 1890 01:50:17.199 --> 01:50:19.760 I think we have one viewer question for you, Kevin. 1891 01:50:20.439 --> 01:50:25.399 What do we got d from Corbyn? 1892 01:50:25.680 --> 01:50:28.520 Did your background make operating for the UN in Central 1893 01:50:28.560 --> 01:50:31.479 Africa more problematic than it usually is? 1894 01:50:33.079 --> 01:50:35.000 No? No, absolutely not. 1895 01:50:36.279 --> 01:50:38.319 One of the benefits about being Irish is that we 1896 01:50:38.399 --> 01:50:44.880 have no colonial baggage, and carr is a it's a 1897 01:50:44.880 --> 01:50:48.880 Francophone country. But one of the things that I will say, 1898 01:50:49.000 --> 01:50:50.840 and this is common to a lot of countries in Africa, 1899 01:50:50.960 --> 01:50:54.680 is that you can't blame colonial baggage for everything. 1900 01:50:56.680 --> 01:50:58.600 Here here in Southilan, the sixty. 1901 01:50:58.279 --> 01:51:01.239 Four main ethnic groups all with their own language, customers, beliefs, 1902 01:51:01.239 --> 01:51:02.640 and they generally don't like each other. 1903 01:51:03.439 --> 01:51:07.520 In car it was the same thing. But I also 1904 01:51:07.560 --> 01:51:08.199 find that. 1905 01:51:10.880 --> 01:51:15.359 Not everything is depending on how you approach people. Like 1906 01:51:16.520 --> 01:51:17.960 so when when I was in care, as I said, 1907 01:51:17.960 --> 01:51:20.199 it's a Frankophone country, I had to make sure I 1908 01:51:20.199 --> 01:51:24.960 had sufficient French to at least explain myself but the 1909 01:51:25.039 --> 01:51:27.960 main other language is Zongo. 1910 01:51:29.119 --> 01:51:31.640 So I felt because I was regardless of. 1911 01:51:32.039 --> 01:51:33.640 What you think of these countries, if you're a guest 1912 01:51:33.640 --> 01:51:36.439 in anyone's country, and I did this in Lebanon and 1913 01:51:36.720 --> 01:51:39.079 in Israel as well, you should be able to say 1914 01:51:39.479 --> 01:51:44.560 how are you? Please, thank you? Where is goodbye? At 1915 01:51:44.560 --> 01:51:49.359 a minimum? So I could do it in Zongo. So 1916 01:51:49.399 --> 01:51:53.159 we'll say in Zongo Tonguana is how are you? And 1917 01:51:53.199 --> 01:51:57.399 the response is yaki. That the next ethnic language is 1918 01:51:57.439 --> 01:52:00.880 Bandit and how are you with Ambretta and the responses 1919 01:52:00.920 --> 01:52:06.279 are MANI so completely different. But we used to have 1920 01:52:06.319 --> 01:52:10.319 local security guards doing kind of access control at the gates. 1921 01:52:10.840 --> 01:52:13.399 So every morning before I went to the office, i'd 1922 01:52:13.439 --> 01:52:19.720 go to the gate and I would address security guys French, 1923 01:52:20.399 --> 01:52:21.760 Zogo and Bandit. 1924 01:52:22.800 --> 01:52:26.399 But if they didn't reply to me in Gaelic, because I. 1925 01:52:26.359 --> 01:52:28.680 Taught them how to say hello, how are you, I'm 1926 01:52:28.720 --> 01:52:31.239 fine in Gaelic. If they didn't reply, I'd give them 1927 01:52:31.239 --> 01:52:31.840 ten push ups. 1928 01:52:32.439 --> 01:52:33.039 And it was good. 1929 01:52:33.239 --> 01:52:36.439 You see, like local contractors coming in, like maybe plumbers 1930 01:52:36.520 --> 01:52:39.640 or something like that, and to see this Irish guy 1931 01:52:40.439 --> 01:52:43.359 not just talking French, not just talking the main dialect, 1932 01:52:43.359 --> 01:52:45.479 but talking the second one as well, and then they'd 1933 01:52:45.479 --> 01:52:47.680 see their neighbors responding in a language at the head 1934 01:52:47.680 --> 01:52:52.319 and effect and clue what it was which But it's 1935 01:52:52.359 --> 01:52:55.800 a kind of it's a mark of respect to them 1936 01:52:55.800 --> 01:52:58.319 and every place I went, and you know, I've been 1937 01:52:58.359 --> 01:53:01.359 on patrols to the middle of Weird and Mone for 1938 01:53:01.439 --> 01:53:06.920 places where the locals may not be that friendly, or 1939 01:53:07.000 --> 01:53:10.479 rebel groups as well. But would say to address some 1940 01:53:10.520 --> 01:53:14.600 of the the the Arab rebel groups in Arabic, well, 1941 01:53:14.640 --> 01:53:18.079 I bet Keith, and then going to Zango, suddenly you 1942 01:53:18.239 --> 01:53:22.560 sort of you're showing them respect that the villagers can 1943 01:53:22.600 --> 01:53:25.720 see that I botheredly asked to learn a bit of 1944 01:53:25.760 --> 01:53:28.880 the local language. And I think it's it's it can 1945 01:53:28.920 --> 01:53:32.640 be a game changer, and it's just a market respect, 1946 01:53:33.119 --> 01:53:34.880 that's it. But but to go back to to to 1947 01:53:34.960 --> 01:53:41.279 your your callers question, certainly, I've never found my background 1948 01:53:41.279 --> 01:53:46.239 being a hindrance too many and your question about the 1949 01:53:46.279 --> 01:53:49.119 care Bears, even though my background is SF and a 1950 01:53:49.119 --> 01:53:51.399 lot of people sort of figured out, well, if I 1951 01:53:51.399 --> 01:53:53.479 said something that had to be true and and he 1952 01:53:53.560 --> 01:53:54.920 knows what he's talking about kind of thing. 1953 01:53:55.800 --> 01:54:00.720 Yeah, that the Irish, the Canadians, few other nationals are 1954 01:54:00.960 --> 01:54:03.680 kind of neutral international They don't have the sort of 1955 01:54:03.680 --> 01:54:06.439 baggage that the United States or Russia or one of 1956 01:54:06.479 --> 01:54:07.680 these countries might come with. 1957 01:54:10.520 --> 01:54:10.760 Yeah. 1958 01:54:10.920 --> 01:54:15.279 So, and you know, I've seen it certainly in Lebanon, 1959 01:54:15.319 --> 01:54:20.359 where often you end up with disputes about who should 1960 01:54:20.359 --> 01:54:24.279 get into a checkpoint first, and and and and some nationalities, 1961 01:54:25.000 --> 01:54:30.560 some armies, will say, would immediately go into the defensive position, 1962 01:54:30.640 --> 01:54:33.640 you know, like I'm in charge kind of thing, whereas 1963 01:54:34.399 --> 01:54:37.239 the Irish would be kindly going, let's come on, what 1964 01:54:37.319 --> 01:54:39.439 do you what are you doing? Let's you sit there, 1965 01:54:39.479 --> 01:54:42.079 you sit there, and you know, and and you know, 1966 01:54:42.159 --> 01:54:44.880 take off the sunglasses, take off the helmet and look 1967 01:54:44.880 --> 01:54:49.960 someone straight in the eye. So yeah, I think the 1968 01:54:50.000 --> 01:54:54.199 Irish always had a good reputation for peacekeeping. As I said, 1969 01:54:54.239 --> 01:54:56.720 many we never colonized anyone, while we did a bit 1970 01:54:56.720 --> 01:54:57.640 of England at one stage. 1971 01:54:58.159 --> 01:54:58.960 That's a long time ago. 1972 01:54:59.119 --> 01:55:03.399 We don't talk about that. But yeah, as I said, 1973 01:55:04.039 --> 01:55:06.199 and it's it's it's human nature as well. It's it's 1974 01:55:06.239 --> 01:55:08.560 if you treat people respect, you know, you will get 1975 01:55:08.600 --> 01:55:11.600 back much more than what you give. And I used 1976 01:55:11.640 --> 01:55:13.800 often say to people it's as easy to be a 1977 01:55:13.800 --> 01:55:15.159 prick as it is to be a nice guy. It 1978 01:55:15.199 --> 01:55:17.239 takes the same amount of energy from from you as 1979 01:55:17.239 --> 01:55:20.479 a person, but you get so much more back by 1980 01:55:21.199 --> 01:55:25.720 showing respect. And I suppose you know, no, sometimes you 1981 01:55:25.760 --> 01:55:27.800 have to be a prick, but not always. 1982 01:55:29.800 --> 01:55:32.079 The book I whope people will go and look for 1983 01:55:32.399 --> 01:55:37.199 is A Lifeless Ordinary by Kevin McDonald. Kevin, any final thoughts, 1984 01:55:37.279 --> 01:55:39.079 anything that I didn't cover that you'd like to get 1985 01:55:39.079 --> 01:55:40.159 out there before we go to that. 1986 01:55:41.359 --> 01:55:44.079 Well, on one big story you didn't cover. I'm surprised 1987 01:55:44.079 --> 01:55:46.800 you didn't, given things that were going on at the moment. 1988 01:55:48.279 --> 01:55:50.239 I'm one of the few people that single handedly stopped 1989 01:55:50.279 --> 01:55:51.319 an army in its tracks. 1990 01:55:51.880 --> 01:55:54.079 Oh, in the Israel Lebanon War. 1991 01:55:54.720 --> 01:55:57.880 Yeah. Yeah, So if you have time, my teller, Yeah, 1992 01:55:58.079 --> 01:55:58.359 go for it. 1993 01:55:58.479 --> 01:55:59.199 Go for it, Kevin. 1994 01:55:59.760 --> 01:56:02.600 Well, So, during the seasfire. 1995 01:56:04.159 --> 01:56:06.079 And as part of the ceasefire, it meant that the 1996 01:56:06.199 --> 01:56:08.520 Lebanese army had to deploy to the south, which that 1997 01:56:08.680 --> 01:56:09.359 happened before. 1998 01:56:10.159 --> 01:56:14.760 So the idea was that as as the idef. 1999 01:56:14.479 --> 01:56:19.159 Started with drawn back to the frontier, the Lebanese army 2000 01:56:19.199 --> 01:56:22.520 would come southwards. But between the Lebanese Army and the idea, 2001 01:56:22.520 --> 01:56:26.359 if there had to be a uniform force, so there'll 2002 01:56:26.359 --> 01:56:29.119 be no kind of engagement. Now that the base I 2003 01:56:29.199 --> 01:56:31.520 was in was on the top of the hill, and 2004 01:56:31.840 --> 01:56:35.039 four hundred meters down this side was a temporary IDF base, 2005 01:56:36.119 --> 01:56:39.560 and everywhere they went to Lebanon, the first vehicle was 2006 01:56:39.560 --> 01:56:42.920 a D nine bulldozer because that could go over something 2007 01:56:42.920 --> 01:56:45.399 that would take out from our canval and whenever they stopped, 2008 01:56:45.680 --> 01:56:48.520 it would throw up like four earthen rampant parts to 2009 01:56:48.760 --> 01:56:53.279 stop direct fire. So every night during the seasfire, these 2010 01:56:53.279 --> 01:56:55.399 guys would go out in darkness that kind of come 2011 01:56:55.479 --> 01:56:56.760 up the hill and that and that passes, and of 2012 01:56:56.760 --> 01:56:58.600 course we'd be looking at them with the night vision 2013 01:57:00.159 --> 01:57:02.720 and the gunner would lay us with the laser range finder, 2014 01:57:02.720 --> 01:57:06.800 which is a weapon in itself. And in fact, most 2015 01:57:06.800 --> 01:57:09.640 of our nd had black spots on them from being 2016 01:57:09.720 --> 01:57:13.920 lais by the Israelis. This particular night they went out, 2017 01:57:14.159 --> 01:57:16.520 they came back at first light. So the next morning, 2018 01:57:16.560 --> 01:57:20.000 myself and this Russian major we went out and before 2019 01:57:20.039 --> 01:57:22.880 we picked up our liaisons system to go patrolling, I said, 2020 01:57:22.960 --> 01:57:25.960 let's go down and see where the IDEF stopped last night. 2021 01:57:26.159 --> 01:57:28.640 So we're talking about two or four hundred meters and 2022 01:57:28.680 --> 01:57:32.079 there was a small road junction and they had set 2023 01:57:32.159 --> 01:57:36.640 up a position there. We said okay, went off dinner patrolling, 2024 01:57:37.479 --> 01:57:39.399 and when we came back, I said to you man, 2025 01:57:39.479 --> 01:57:44.880 let's just check that that crossroads. So the Lebanese army 2026 01:57:44.880 --> 01:57:48.920 had arrived with a company of Mike Bowan threes and 2027 01:57:48.960 --> 01:57:53.680 there's no uniforit. So Lebanes are here, we're here, and 2028 01:57:53.720 --> 01:57:56.079 the ide effort here, and there's no UNIFIL in between. 2029 01:57:57.000 --> 01:58:00.239 So I rang our operations and I said, look, you 2030 01:58:00.279 --> 01:58:03.359 need to get UNIFIL to place themselves between the laugh 2031 01:58:04.199 --> 01:58:06.079 the Lemanies, arner forces and the IDEA. 2032 01:58:07.840 --> 01:58:09.680 So he said, why. 2033 01:58:09.600 --> 01:58:11.079 Don't you go down to talk to the idea if 2034 01:58:12.199 --> 01:58:16.079 I said okay, why not? So I asked my Russian colleague, 2035 01:58:16.079 --> 01:58:17.079 I said, are you okay with this? 2036 01:58:18.399 --> 01:58:19.159 He said yeah. 2037 01:58:19.319 --> 01:58:24.000 So I followed the Kava tank tracks up down the 2038 01:58:24.000 --> 01:58:25.720 fire side, and when I got to the base of 2039 01:58:25.760 --> 01:58:29.359 their position, there was no one around. So I thought 2040 01:58:30.520 --> 01:58:34.319 this is a bit dodgy. I slammed the character shut 2041 01:58:35.520 --> 01:58:37.760 and I'm climbing up the rampart chill on, chill on, 2042 01:58:37.840 --> 01:58:42.359 National Mark, National Mark, National Car, Sorry to a maid. 2043 01:58:44.279 --> 01:58:45.560 And when I get to the top of the rampart 2044 01:58:45.560 --> 01:58:48.159 there's a young IDF guy half asleep, and he kind 2045 01:58:48.159 --> 01:58:51.479 of goes and I said to him, I don't know 2046 01:58:51.479 --> 01:58:53.199 if you have the same signal, but generally, like we 2047 01:58:53.239 --> 01:58:54.840 see in the Irish Army, if you go like that, 2048 01:58:54.920 --> 01:58:57.600 you want to see the commander, the guy with the pips. 2049 01:58:58.760 --> 01:59:00.439 And I could see him sitting on a carve it 2050 01:59:00.479 --> 01:59:03.039 as this young guy kind of looking at me, so 2051 01:59:03.119 --> 01:59:04.960 that the guy that was beside me goes blah blah 2052 01:59:05.000 --> 01:59:09.720 blah to obviously the patun commander, and he basically said 2053 01:59:09.720 --> 01:59:12.479 tell him to fuck off. I could see his actions. 2054 01:59:14.079 --> 01:59:19.319 So I let fly on this young soldier. I said, look, 2055 01:59:19.960 --> 01:59:22.479 I know where he went last night. I don't give 2056 01:59:22.520 --> 01:59:24.680 a flying for where you go tonight. I couldn't give 2057 01:59:24.680 --> 01:59:27.880 a shit, but I'm telling you officially that the Lebanese 2058 01:59:28.000 --> 01:59:30.680 Army is part of the ceasefire agreement has now deployed 2059 01:59:30.720 --> 01:59:33.840 to that location. So take that information and do what 2060 01:59:33.880 --> 01:59:40.680 you operate. Stormed off. So then I rang our operations 2061 01:59:41.119 --> 01:59:43.359 and they said they were trying to get the liaison 2062 01:59:43.960 --> 01:59:49.680 officer from UNIFIL to officially inform the Israelis. So I said, okay, 2063 01:59:49.800 --> 01:59:51.199 So out of my hands. But the last thing I 2064 01:59:51.239 --> 01:59:54.680 wanted was a shooting match with us in the middle. 2065 01:59:55.920 --> 02:00:00.119 And so then the chief liaison officer for you if 2066 02:00:00.159 --> 02:00:03.960 it was French, and he wrings me and he says, given, 2067 02:00:05.479 --> 02:00:08.920 you will find the Indian battalion and placed. I said, 2068 02:00:08.960 --> 02:00:12.039 so I'm on. So I have no command responsibility with you. 2069 02:00:12.119 --> 02:00:15.800 I can't tell uniform what to do with their troops. 2070 02:00:15.840 --> 02:00:18.960 It's up to uniform to contact their troops and do it. 2071 02:00:19.199 --> 02:00:21.800 I'm nothing to do with the UNIFIL apartment give them advice. 2072 02:00:23.439 --> 02:00:28.520 So then the Lebanese battalion commander rang me to say 2073 02:00:28.520 --> 02:00:30.439 when of the Israeli is going to attack? And I said, look, 2074 02:00:31.359 --> 02:00:33.560 I'm trying to stop all this, but you know, I 2075 02:00:33.760 --> 02:00:36.039 just you can see they were there last night. I 2076 02:00:36.119 --> 02:00:39.720 spoke with them. I don't know if they're going there tonight. 2077 02:00:40.119 --> 02:00:43.000 You wouldn't tell me. So then there was an Irish 2078 02:00:43.039 --> 02:00:46.680 lefting colonel in the liaison branch and about an hour 2079 02:00:46.760 --> 02:00:49.560 later he rang me and he said, he said, Kevin, 2080 02:00:49.560 --> 02:00:51.039 do you want the good news with the bad news? 2081 02:00:52.239 --> 02:00:56.000 I said, give me the bad news first. He said, 2082 02:00:56.319 --> 02:00:59.520 you are probably the most hated you an officer with 2083 02:00:59.600 --> 02:01:01.920 the Irish with the Israeli Defense Forces at the moment. 2084 02:01:02.319 --> 02:01:03.800 And I said, sir, I'll take that as a badge 2085 02:01:03.800 --> 02:01:07.199 of honor. I said, what's the good news? He said, 2086 02:01:08.000 --> 02:01:11.159 the divisional commander, because he heard one of his guys 2087 02:01:11.159 --> 02:01:13.359 wouldn't talk to you, and after who was trying to 2088 02:01:13.399 --> 02:01:16.720 de escalate a situation, cancel all operations for twenty four 2089 02:01:16.760 --> 02:01:20.560 hours until they could sort out things visibly, unifil. 2090 02:01:20.239 --> 02:01:21.359 And the laugh and all that. 2091 02:01:21.439 --> 02:01:24.920 So, yeah, that's my great claim to him stopping an army. 2092 02:01:25.279 --> 02:01:26.880 Yeah, I mean it would have been a mess if 2093 02:01:26.960 --> 02:01:30.159 the Israelis went up there and you know, confront. 2094 02:01:29.880 --> 02:01:32.439 Them, if there was no uniform there, like they could 2095 02:01:32.479 --> 02:01:37.479 have engaged in you know. But yeah, that's how things happened. 2096 02:01:37.560 --> 02:01:40.920 You know, when when when on both sides don't have 2097 02:01:40.960 --> 02:01:46.479 the full picture. But thankfully is yeah, thankfully it all 2098 02:01:47.800 --> 02:01:48.920 it all got sorted out. 2099 02:01:50.079 --> 02:01:52.720 And guys will have some links down the description of 2100 02:01:52.720 --> 02:01:56.079 this podcast where you can find Kevin's book. It's a 2101 02:01:56.079 --> 02:01:58.359 lot of fun, a lot of great stories in there. 2102 02:01:58.399 --> 02:02:00.760 I hope you guys will go check it out. Kevin, 2103 02:02:00.800 --> 02:02:03.640 thank you for joining us tonight, especially making the extra 2104 02:02:03.720 --> 02:02:06.640 effort with the time zone difference and everything really appreciate it. 2105 02:02:06.640 --> 02:02:10.520 Man. No, it was a good shot because I think 2106 02:02:11.800 --> 02:02:12.920 all soldiers kind of. 2107 02:02:13.479 --> 02:02:14.279 Like to shoot the breeze. 2108 02:02:15.840 --> 02:02:18.760 Yes, well, hopefully we link up and do it the 2109 02:02:18.840 --> 02:02:20.239 right way over a beer one day. 2110 02:02:21.039 --> 02:02:23.479 Yeah yeah, yeah, and I'm just cigar as well. 2111 02:02:23.640 --> 02:02:26.039 Yes, hell, yes, absolutely so. 2112 02:02:26.079 --> 02:02:27.560 This is Jackie. 2113 02:02:27.760 --> 02:02:30.359 Thanks, thanks, thanks for having me, and I think I've 2114 02:02:30.359 --> 02:02:31.880 given you the link for Amazon if you want to 2115 02:02:31.920 --> 02:02:32.560 include that. 2116 02:02:32.800 --> 02:02:35.600 Yeah, we got it in there, and so everyone else 2117 02:02:35.640 --> 02:02:38.439 out there. We will see you guys next week. Thanks 2118 02:02:38.479 --> 02:02:39.840 for joining us. 2119 02:02:41.039 --> 02:02:42.279 Thanks, thanks for having me. 2120 02:02:43.359 --> 02:02:45.199 Hey, guys, it's jack I just want to talk to 2121 02:02:45.239 --> 02:02:47.439 you for a moment about how you can support the show. 2122 02:02:47.560 --> 02:02:50.239 If you've been watching it enjoying it, but you'd like 2123 02:02:50.279 --> 02:02:52.119 to get a little bit more involved and help us 2124 02:02:52.159 --> 02:02:54.880 continue to do this. You can check out our Patreon 2125 02:02:55.279 --> 02:02:59.399 It is patreon dot com slash the Teamhouse, and for 2126 02:02:59.680 --> 02:03:02.399 five a month you can get access to all of 2127 02:03:02.439 --> 02:03:06.439 these episodes of The Teamhouse ad free. The same goes 2128 02:03:06.479 --> 02:03:10.119 with our affiliated podcast Eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason 2129 02:03:10.199 --> 02:03:13.560 Lyons mcmulroy that one you will also get all of 2130 02:03:13.640 --> 02:03:18.199 those episodes add free. And you support the channel and 2131 02:03:18.279 --> 02:03:21.079 the show and we really appreciate it. The Patreon members 2132 02:03:21.119 --> 02:03:24.880 are literally what has helped this company and this small 2133 02:03:24.920 --> 02:03:29.399 business survive, especially during our early years, and you are 2134 02:03:29.439 --> 02:03:32.560 what continues to help this thing going even as we 2135 02:03:32.680 --> 02:03:36.279 navigate the turbulent world of YouTube advertising. 2136 02:03:36.520 --> 02:03:38.319 So we really appreciate all of you guys. 2137 02:03:39.199 --> 02:03:40.840 There's going to be a link down in the description 2138 02:03:40.960 --> 02:03:44.479 to that Patreon page, and there is also going to 2139 02:03:44.479 --> 02:03:47.279 be a link to our new merch shop, so if 2140 02:03:47.319 --> 02:03:49.720 you guys want to go and get some Teamhouse merchandise. 2141 02:03:49.720 --> 02:03:53.279 We got stickers and we also have patches, and I 2142 02:03:53.319 --> 02:03:56.239 should mention if you sign up for Patreon at ten 2143 02:03:56.319 --> 02:03:58.600 dollars a month, we will nail you this patch as well, 2144 02:04:00.119 --> 02:04:03.479 so we really appreciate that. But they're also for sale 2145 02:04:03.479 --> 02:04:07.079 on the merch shop. And additionally, they got t shirts 2146 02:04:07.159 --> 02:04:11.880 up there, water bottles, a tote bag, coffee mugs, all 2147 02:04:11.920 --> 02:04:14.680 that good stuff, so please go and check them out 2148 02:04:14.680 --> 02:04:15.600 and support the show. 2149 02:04:16.159 --> 02:04:39.479 We really appreciate it, guys. Thank you,