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Speaker 1: Does Zen, let's say, formulate the infinite as relational to

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the finite?

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Speaker 2: Yes, and so we can enter through emptiness's form form

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is emptiness exactly explicitly?

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Speaker 1: So, I mean, I know this is going to sound weird,

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but then why isn't Why don't people pray in Zen?

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Speaker 3: They do?

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Speaker 2: So I happen to know is Zen roshi? And he

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prays and he chants and so forth?

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Speaker 4: What is? What is? What's the infinite? Like? Does it

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have humor?

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Jordan, You're gonna be more precise in what

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do you mean by that question?

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, one of the things of something that

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has a character relationship is that it has a character relationship,

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and so the question is something like.

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Speaker 3: Well, okay, let me answer that. Let me answer that first.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So you know, this is Shallingberg who's an atheist,

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but says, what we're talking about, what we're talking about

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sacred is you know, it's ultimately real and again not

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in the neutral sense and the ontonormative. I want to

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participate in it. So that's a relationship term. I want

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to participate in it. I want to conform to it.

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I want to reciprocally open, I want to be realized

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by it as I realize it all of that. Secondly,

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it's ultimately orienting, like people reorient towards it, right, And

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it's ultimately transformative.

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Speaker 3: It causes you know, this deep, deep, the deepest.

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Speaker 2: Possible transformation from being egocentric to being profoundly reality centric.

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Speaker 4: But about you, that's the question. Does it care about you?

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Speaker 3: Why does that matter to you?

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Speaker 4: That's a question.

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Speaker 5: This is Jonathan Pegel. Welcome to the Symbolic World.

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Speaker 6: So hello everyone.

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Speaker 1: I am here with Jordana Hall and John BRAVEKEI all

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of you know them very well. I am really excited

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and a little befuddled, and we're wondering what's gonna happen

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because John Braveke wrote both of us said, I watch

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our your conversation together and I really would like to

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have a discussion of the three of us. And so

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I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what it is that

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he's scheming in what's going on in his mind. But

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before we start, we're making an announcement today. In a

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few weeks we'll put the links in the description that

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you can go see on our website.

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Speaker 6: But in a few weeks.

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Speaker 1: John will be teaching a class on cognitive science and

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Ritual for the symbolic world. And so he's going to

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go into his own ideas and his own research and

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all all the way that he connects his study into

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in cognitive.

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Speaker 6: Science with ritual.

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Speaker 1: And then in the last episode he's going to go

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through the theory and then the last episode will have

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a discussion together. And so that will be of course

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live like the other classes. You can join live. You

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can also buy the class and watch it later if

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you don't have time to join live. But we'll have

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Q and a's and everything the same way we're doing

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our other classes. So before we start, maybe John, you

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can tell us give us a little something about about

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the COSI class.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, first of all, deeply appreciative of being here

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and also very appreciative of you inviting me to teach

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on the symbolic world. I'm very excited about this, especially

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the fact that it'll at least have a diological culmination.

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I think that's just wonderful. It goes with a lot

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of things that I believe in and stand for. So

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there's lots of theories of ritual out there, but there's

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very little theory of ritual that actually covers what you

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might call the cognitive dimension of ritual.

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Speaker 3: So I'm not going.

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Speaker 2: To be offering that would be pretentious and hubristic to say, I'm.

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Speaker 3: Going to give you a comprehensive account.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's socioeconomic, there are historical, there are cultural,

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there are philosophical, there are theological aspects of ritual, and

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I'm not here to comment on them, and I'm not

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here to deny that they exist or that they're important.

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All I'm saying is there has been a missing dimension

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a lot in a lot of the discussion of ritual,

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which is the cognition of ritual? Is ritual a way

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of knowing? For example? Is that a reasonable question to ask?

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And there are and there's a lot of work on that.

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And I want to bring all the work I've done

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on the imaginal, the relationship between the imaginal and the

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rational and the reasonable and the relationship you know what

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it is? What kind of knowing are we talking about?

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And is there is there a rationality to ritual? Those

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are all the things we're going to be talking about.

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The quick answer is, yes, there is cognition in ritual,

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and it's a very powerful and important form of ritual.

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And it's bound up very deeply with I think a

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more proper understanding of what we mean by rational if

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what we mean by rational isn't merely logical, but being

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reasonable in a much more comprehensive sense.

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Speaker 1: All right, well, we are definitely looking forward to that.

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So Jordan, good to see you. And we want to know,

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I mean, I want to know what it is in

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our conversation John, that that sparked this discussion.

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Speaker 6: So you have to start us off.

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Speaker 2: Well first of all, because you know I'm going to

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do a few things that will be provocative, but you know,

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as as is my want. But obviously I'm not doing

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anything ridiculous like attempting a refutation. I loved the conversation.

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I love both of you. I consider you friends that

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I respect and have a lot of affection for. And

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so it was like, yeah, but what about this? What

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about this kind of issue? It wasn't like, well, I

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think it's not that okay, so and and I think

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it's fair to say there was a lot of John

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Raveaki running through the conversation.

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Speaker 3: So I don't want to be ungracious or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: So I just want to frame very quickly where I'm

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coming from and what I'm trying to do here. I'm

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trying to be socratic. I'm not trying to be a skeptict. Okay,

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So so i'll if I could, I'll lay out what

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I hurt, what I and of course you'll you'll be

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free to correct me when I'm done. What I thought

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I heard around a central thing I want to talk about.

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We don't have to stick on that topic. This is

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just where, but this is what brought me into I

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want to talk to you two about it. Right, So

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there was a discussion of pissiness as faith, and then

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there was there was very much moves I agree with,

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like moving it off belief, at least in the sense

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of asserting propositions without evidence or argument. You both said

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something along those lines, and then there was there was

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a movement to trust, and then I would want to

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I would have wanted to slow down a little bit there,

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because the problem with the word try is it's very equivocal.

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Speaker 3: There's two different meanings of trust.

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Speaker 2: There's one meaning of trust is based on empirical observation

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and inference. I come to a conclusion about the probability

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of somebody's competence, so I trust that if I give

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this to Peter, he'll do a good job. That's not

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particularly relevant to your conversation in any important fashion, because

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that's just how we sort of get about the world

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where we can't operate with certainty, which is like everywhere

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then you mean it, So I just want to make

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clear that that's not what we're talking about, to my mind.

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And then you moved to something which was deeper, and

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I'm going to use a little bit of my own language,

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and we can.

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Speaker 3: Play with it if you don't like it.

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Speaker 2: But it was something like, because you were trying to draw,

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to my mind, you were trying to draw together notions

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of participatory knowing, because that was invoked a lot, and

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it's something like, you know, participation in sort of primordial presuppositions.

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These are presuppositions that you can't get outside of. They

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are presupposed in the very act of trying to make sense, uh,

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make judgments about what's intelligible, et cetera. And so like

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there's their primorgile in that sense. To doubt them would

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be to invoke them, to try and doubt them kind

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of things. And so although you can't give an argument

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for them, there is no place you can stand to

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call them seriously into question, and this is this is

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a good model. By the way, it's not unique to

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me or to both of you. Alvin plantinga has who's

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an important Christian philosopher, has a very similar kind of

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you know, presupposition model of what's going on. And I'm

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a little bit different than him on this. But so

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that that's cool. So so far, so good. I think

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everybody's nodding and smiling.

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Speaker 3: But then so a couple issues came up to me.

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Well one is okay, that's fair.

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Speaker 2: But and for me, that's great because that sort of

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grounds the philosophical silk road really wonderfully because we it means,

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you know, that we're not all automatically we can't dismiss faith.

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Speaker 3: We're bound at this level.

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Speaker 2: I think Jordan, you even said, you know, even the

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atheist has to have this kind of faith in some sense.

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You said something to that degree, and that's a great strength.

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But it also opens up this question that means at

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that level of the argument that both the Buddhists and

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the Christian have equal faith because if they equally have

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right a set of primordial presuppositions, that makes the world

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fundamentally intelligible to them in a way in which they

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can profoundly participate. They both have faith. This is why

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I think it's a philosophical silk road move. Now what

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when I then wonder? So again, that's why I'm posing

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it to you. It seems to me you need an

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additional argument for talking about faith in the specific Christian content,

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because that faith doesn't follow from the argument you gave,

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because as the argument you gave is a properly pluralistic argument. Okay,

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Now there's potential moves available to you, and I'll lay

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them out how I see them and what I find

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problematic about them, and then I'll stop talking.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So one move you can make is.

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Speaker 2: To say something well like, I mean, you know, well,

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Christianity makes the most sense, or something like that, that's problematic.

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I'm not going to repeat my thousand arguments and publications

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and videos about intelligibility grounds and relevance realization, and relevance

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realization is properly pluralistic. Right, you can't in and we

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just published a paper on this. You can't give an

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there's no way to give an opera ROI formalization of

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relevance realization that allows you to say, this is the

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optimal final.

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Speaker 3: Version of relevance realization.

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Speaker 2: Relevance realization is non computational, to put it in a phrase,

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and that's really important because that grounds meaning and life,

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That grounds a lot of the stuff we're talking about,

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but that also commits you to certain consequences of that. Now,

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what you could do, and you could make use of

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James Filler I'm talking to him tomorrow, by the way,

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and he's got a second book outcoming where he's got

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the critique of substance ontology, so I'm looking forward to that.

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And then you could say, oh, well, what we could

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do is we could make a move where say, you

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could say, intelligibility or information are properly relational and therefore

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we should go to a.

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Speaker 3: Worldview.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to use a neutral term here that gives

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the most proper place to relationality and doesn't commit to

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like a substance ontology or something like that. And then James,

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as you know, maps that into the trinity. The trinity

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is the most powerful symbol, according to James, of pure relationality,

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and therefore it's a great symbol for ultimate reality. And

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that's why it makes the most sense, and it seemed

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to me that arguments along those lines were being made,

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and you know, push back when I'm done and we're

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here as friends. But then the concern that I had

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with that is, well, the problem with that is and

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we'll see what James says about this. I have a

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critique of James, which is his main argument. To cut

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it short, and I won't make the argument. I'll just

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give you The conclusion is, you can't get relations out

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of lada.

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Speaker 3: You can't. There's nothing given.

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Speaker 2: If you start with things and substances in the real

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Statolian terms, you can't get relations out of that. And

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if you can't get relations, you can't get intelligibility, et cetera,

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et cetera.

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Speaker 3: That's the core argument that he makes.

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Speaker 2: The problem is there's an exactly symmetrical argument, and Jonathan

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will probably recognize this. This is a neoplatonic argument. You also

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can't get relada out of pure relations. You can't get

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the arguments are exactly symmetrical. So pure relationality doesn't mean

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at the bottom there's relations. Pure relationality means at the

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bottom there is that that is below both relations and

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relata and makes them both possible. And of course this

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is the neoplatonic one. Right, It's not a relation, it's

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not a relata. It's what makes relations and relata possible.

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Or it's something like zenata, which is okay, Now, what

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does that mean for the mapping onto the trinity? Because

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I could say, well, Zen does a really good job

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because Zen prioritizes nonduality and that's the central message, not

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the trinitarian nation and nature of relationality. And this goes

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into the deeper argument. This is a mapping function, and

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the problem with mapping functions is that reality is culbinatorially

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explosive and there is no perfect map. What kind of

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map do you want? Do you want a contour map,

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do you want a geographical map? Do you want a

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political map? Do you want a thermal map? It depends

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pragmatically on the goal you're trying to solve.

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Speaker 3: So there is no way of.

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Speaker 2: Saying that's the absolute best map of reality. It can't work. Now,

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you may think, and I'm trying. I'm gonna use all

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these terms with deep respect, so I'm not being dismissive.

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Speaker 3: Okay, But you said, well, I can.

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Speaker 2: Map Yahweh, the God of Israel, and Jesus of Nazareth

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and the Spirit of Pentecost, which I take to be

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at least one way of understanding the Trinity. There's a

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mapping going on there, and it's like, I think that's great.

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Speaker 3: I think James' is great.

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Speaker 2: But the neo Platonists have a way of mapping, and

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there's other maps, and there's no there's no, there's no.

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Speaker 3: What at stand to say this is the absolute right map.

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Speaker 2: And so we keep coming back to, we keep coming

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back to a proper pluralism for which I don't understand, Like,

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I don't see why you come to a particular faith

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in right as opposed to just having and I'm sorry,

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this sounds silly having faith in faith itself. And I

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don't believe that. You obviously know that, But do you

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understand what the gist of the argument is, because there

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was the reason why this matters, because it has existential

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import because and you know, and Jordan matters to me

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a lot, right, Jordan was talking about what led him

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into Christianity, not what led him into faith, and that's

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what I was trying to understand, Right, So I think

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it's fair to me to bring up this set of

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problems Okay, how is that was that?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 6: I think I mean, I think I did definitely understand

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the different arguments. I know, I think Jordan, you you

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should have the you should start.

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Speaker 4: Okay. I'm mindful of the concern Jonathan you mentioned earlier.

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Jonathan mentioned that he's he's concerned that when he and

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I talk it maybe yeah, maybe too abstract or two

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high level. And I think it's fair to say that

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when we add Ravaki into the conversation and where he's

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actually bringing a point that is very, very precise. So

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I think maybe the thing do we say, say forgive me,

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but there's nothing that there's nothing I can do about

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the fact that this may be at the borders of intelligibility.

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So let's see. Yes, this notion that there can be

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no map that is the funny, that is the ultimate

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map is actually the same as the critique I have

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of metamodernism. And so the answer is something like, is

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there something that is more fundamental than mapping that is

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primordial in the sense that it is prior to all

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possible maps, which is not itself defined as a as

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a map, but is a protom map. There's the process

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whereby maps are formed at all and constrains and defines

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all possible maps.

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Speaker 7: If such a thing we're we're able to enter into

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relationship with it, by the way, and also in point

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number two, then that's the thing, that's the thing that

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we would ultimately have to be looking at.

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Speaker 4: Okay, roman number number two. In this kind of a conversation,

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it's beautiful that all three of us are. This won't

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be controversial, but in this kind of a conversation you

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have to be very particular about the fact that we

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cannot bias any particular quality of relationship, meaning in this

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specifically intelligent or semantics or cognition narrowly understood, but actually

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be saying what we're seeking to do is to enter

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into relationship with that thing which is primordial or prior

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to all possible maps, with the wholeness of our capacity

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to enter into relationship at all. And maybe then just

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to add that the third piece, and I really do

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think it was you who added this piece to a

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conversation we had years ago. Oh oh, yes, I can

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say it in with it's differently yours, which is reciprocal opening, yes,

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meaning that this is also in a live relationship that

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in entering into this quality of holistic relationship with this

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primordial Both we and our capacity too are in a

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continuous reciprocal opening. I notice what's happening in all this, right,

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So that is what I think Christianity is.

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Speaker 3: Okay? Uh uh yeah?

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Speaker 2: So I mean I I'm like, there's two ways in

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which you could be meaning that. One is Christianity is that,

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and so is uh you know what, Let's play fair.

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We're not going to compare good Christians to bad Buddhists

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or some We're going to say the best of a Christian,

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the best of a Buddhist. We'll play We'll play fair.

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It seems to me that I can say everything you

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just said. The reciprocal opening a transformative relationship to ultimate relationality,

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the one in Neoplatonism or shunyada that makes all relationality possible,

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that is also available to the true, the good faith Buddhist,

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the good faith Taoist, the good faith Neoplatonist. And of

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course the trick here, of course, is Philler relies on

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Neoplatonism even to make his argument right.

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna pause for a moment because I feel like

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there's something has to happen at the level of dio

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logos for this to work properly.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I hope I'm not being stultifying. I'm not trying

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to be.

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Speaker 4: No, No, the opposite. I think that there's something like

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to be able to respond to this properly, we have

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to come into a quality of communion that it affords

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a vastly greater capacity than we have as individuals and

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have yet cultivated.

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Speaker 3: Good I'm open to that.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, I'm not here to refute things that's

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not my that's not what I want. I want to

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get this because I want to look what I don't

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what I don't see in the two of you. Let

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me maybe saying this will help to do what you're

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talking about, Jordan, I don't see a simplistic sort of

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liberal tolerance. And I mean that in a pejorative sense. Well,

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you have your Christianity and I have my Buddhism or

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what and we all just live together and that's all

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wonderful and a sort of relativism.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I don't I take it. That's not

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what you're saying.

365
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Speaker 2: You're right, good, So we're in agreement, and I want

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right and I so I'm trying to say, tell me

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how you address these issues and yet keep the depth

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from just just degenerating into well, I like you and

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you like me, and we like that we like each

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other and all that sort of stuff that really doesn't

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help with what's going on in the world right now.

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Speaker 1: So maybe while you're Jordan, while you're meditating, maybe I'll

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throughout the things that came to my mind when you

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were talking John. So a few things came to my mind.

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One is we've talked about this before. When is that

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the map that Christianity proposes is eschatological. Yes, uh, And

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it's presented in a manner that is actually not a

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specific map, right, It's presented with language that is mythological,

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that that is structural, you know, like a city with

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with something something which represents the top of the hierarchy,

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the son of Man, a king figure, something which represents

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the bottom of the my hierarchy, the sacrifice lamb which

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you're joined together as the light of the city.

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Speaker 6: And then that gives way to a world where.

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Speaker 1: There's balance between the natural world and the art and

386
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the human world, and the artificial world and the human world,

387
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and and that all multiplicity can can bring its quality

388
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into that participation right, so all the kings bring their

389
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crown into the into the into the into the city.

390
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And so I think that that is one way of

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answering the question of the of the absolute map, or

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like the perfect map, is that the perfect map is

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given as something which is coming but never comes, or

394
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at least doesn't come in the way that we think.

395
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Speaker 6: I mean, I'm not saying there isn't.

396
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Speaker 1: An eschatological moment, but that eschatological moment cannot be measured

397
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by the measurements of time that we give to the

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time now, like it's the end of time in the

399
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sense it's the purpose of time. It's the end of

400
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history in the sense that it's the thing towards which

401
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,079
all things are moving. And I and I think that

402
00:22:54,119 --> 00:23:00,880
in terms of that's a map like a if we

403
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,640
talk about the idea of of mapping reality. I think

404
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,319
that that's important to always remember is that Christ is

405
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the one who came and the one who's coming, and

406
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when he's coming in the end, that which he will

407
00:23:13,039 --> 00:23:15,319
offer is a new heaven and a new earth that

408
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is not the one that we have now. Everything that

409
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we have now is although we don't want to say

410
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that it's it's it's it's arbitrary, it's not arbitrary at all.

411
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But it's a glimmer. It's always a glimmer and a

412
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kind of small participation in something which which which is coming.

413
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,839
Uh you know, and you know there are there are

414
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sometimes you can you can read there are mysterious ways

415
00:23:38,519 --> 00:23:42,640
in which you know, for example, like the Saint, we'll

416
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,319
talk about when you take communion, you are already in

417
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,759
the esketon. You're right, you know, but it's something which

418
00:23:48,839 --> 00:23:52,279
when you're in the esketon, you're also not in regular time.

419
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You're not in the normal time, you're not in in

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in in the way that the world.

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Speaker 6: Is laid out. And coming back from that.

422
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Speaker 1: In some ways will always is relativize and make things

423
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,400
imperfect and you know, and and somewhat somewhat off from

424
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the And so I think that that in terms of

425
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the idea of that Christianity offers a map for reality.

426
00:24:14,839 --> 00:24:17,039
I think we always have to remember that that that

427
00:24:17,799 --> 00:24:22,640
eschatology is a central part of how we understand that

428
00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:27,759
how the logos manifest themselves in the world, because the logos,

429
00:24:27,519 --> 00:24:30,119
it's the fullness of the logos has not yet been seen.

430
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The fullness of the logos is coming, It's over the hill.

431
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It's come, Lord Jesus, right, the sense that we're calling

432
00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:37,119
it into.

433
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Speaker 6: Being, but it never it doesn't. It doesn't arrive in

434
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:42,359
the way that we expect it.

435
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:42,559
Speaker 3: Right.

436
00:24:42,599 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: Even in the Book of even Christ says, if if

437
00:24:45,519 --> 00:24:47,640
you say here he is, here he is, you know,

438
00:24:47,799 --> 00:24:50,359
don't listen to those who say there he is, Like, that's.

439
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 6: Not how it's going to. It's going to it's going

440
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to happen.

441
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Speaker 1: So in terms of mapping, that's one of the things

442
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,720
I want to offer, and the other the other part, though,

443
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I want to offer, in terms of relationality, in terms

444
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,640
of the trinity, is we always have to remember that

445
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the that the trinity is not just relationality.

446
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,039
Speaker 3: It is one, yes, of course, right.

447
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 1: It's you always have to keep that a poor ya

448
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present for it to for it to be the the

449
00:25:15,319 --> 00:25:17,559
So it's both the one in some ways of the

450
00:25:17,599 --> 00:25:22,440
new Platonists, but it also is the fullness of of

451
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,480
of relationality in the multiple. Right, So it's it's those

452
00:25:25,519 --> 00:25:29,200
two things at the same time. But it avoids it

453
00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:33,240
avoids the problem of gnosticism, and right the problem of

454
00:25:33,319 --> 00:25:37,519
the the degenerate of the degenerate manifestations. You could say,

455
00:25:37,599 --> 00:25:41,759
right that manifestations or or or or things that proceed

456
00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:45,480
from the one are immediately you know, degenerate for that,

457
00:25:45,599 --> 00:25:47,759
for that, for that reason anyway, So there are a

458
00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:49,519
few things I wanted to offer, but it's mostly Jordan.

459
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Speaker 6: You have to.

460
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Speaker 1: I think you're the You're the A lot of it

461
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:54,799
was was about the things that you said, so.

462
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Speaker 4: Go ahead, yeah, when you said about the logos, so

463
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:07,640
what I was noticing was perhaps the CrOx precisely, the

464
00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:16,720
y yeah is known as the hypostatic union because the

465
00:26:16,839 --> 00:26:25,119
logos incarnate affords a different quality of relationality than the

466
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,640
logos in general. That's so if I'm Laos Sue endeavoring

467
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:34,160
deeply to come into relationship with the way, there's so

468
00:26:34,279 --> 00:26:37,880
far I can go, you know, if I'm a neoplatonist

469
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,680
contemplating the one, there's so far I can go. But John,

470
00:26:44,079 --> 00:26:50,680
now you the apostle. John actually meets Jesus, and that's

471
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,039
a completely different kind of thing. It's very different.

472
00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:53,279
Speaker 5: You know.

473
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,599
Speaker 4: It's as similar as saying, my ability to know my

474
00:26:56,799 --> 00:27:01,480
wife by virtue of reading her biography and by virtue

475
00:27:01,519 --> 00:27:06,160
of actually loving her directly, and so the ability to

476
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:12,160
actually enter into a human scale relationship with the logos

477
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,799
incarnate is a qualitatively different kind of thing. And I

478
00:27:15,799 --> 00:27:19,640
think there's a lot going on there, and it's the inverse,

479
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,119
and it very powerfully bound inverse than the Crucifixion, and

480
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,160
these things are yoke together powerful as also. Jonathan, mindful

481
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,720
of the talk you gave at the Symbolic World Conference

482
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,839
in the Son of Man, I've seen whatever images were

483
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,960
coming to me when you were talking. Then I was

484
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,160
seeing those images coming up when jama was speaking earlier.

485
00:27:40,759 --> 00:27:43,039
So I mean, ultimate we're really talking about is Christ.

486
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,079
Ultimate we're really talking about, obviously, and sometimes the thing

487
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,240
that differentiates Christianity as a way of doing this sort

488
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,839
of thing is Christ, and Christ is the incarnation, the actual,

489
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,000
not just the logos as an abstraction that we can contemplate,

490
00:27:57,039 --> 00:27:59,599
which the Greeks do at the highest level, and l'ao

491
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,200
suda is at the highest level the way the logos,

492
00:28:03,799 --> 00:28:07,759
but the fact that there's something about the particularity of

493
00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:13,039
the eruption of the eternal into the chronological in a

494
00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:17,079
particular moment in space and time, and what that does

495
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:22,359
in terms of affording our ability as in fact quite

496
00:28:22,559 --> 00:28:26,119
distinctly finite beings, right with the very limited capacity to

497
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:31,079
enter into relationship with the ultimate in terms of affording

498
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,680
that what would be called the hyposthetic union. Right, This

499
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,559
this paradoxical a poia that happens at that level of

500
00:28:38,599 --> 00:28:41,759
how the finite and the infinite can actually grow in

501
00:28:41,839 --> 00:28:45,720
that relationality.

502
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: I want to properly pause here in case either one

503
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,640
of you want to say some more, because that was

504
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,799
a lot, and it was good when it was rich.

505
00:28:55,559 --> 00:28:56,559
Speaker 3: I am.

506
00:28:59,519 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 2: So the escatological that the map is incomplete. That is

507
00:29:06,559 --> 00:29:10,839
of course also not unique to Christianity. Buddhism has Matreya,

508
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,240
the coming Buddha, and there is no map. So the

509
00:29:14,359 --> 00:29:19,319
the eschatological sense is again found elsewhere. That's just one

510
00:29:19,359 --> 00:29:25,119
example I can give others. And so although I think

511
00:29:25,119 --> 00:29:27,400
I hear an argument building, Yeah, all these things are

512
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,200
found elsewhere, but you can only find all of them

513
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,680
in sort of your one stop enlightenment shop or something

514
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,880
that's Christianity. But maybe that's the argument that's building here.

515
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:36,480
We'll see if.

516
00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 3: That's what we're working towards. Now.

517
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,319
Speaker 2: The idea that the logos is incarnate in a specific

518
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:49,519
historical person, well, Buddha nature was present in Sadhartagatama, and

519
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,759
people met him historically, and that's how Buddhism was founded,

520
00:29:53,839 --> 00:29:58,039
and and and and so that's not the Christian doctrine

521
00:29:58,079 --> 00:30:00,960
of incarnation. But that's not fair. You can't say the

522
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,160
Buddhist don't have the they have that the Dharma was

523
00:30:05,599 --> 00:30:10,000
embodied in a way right that ignited a religion, right,

524
00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:19,640
and and and so again that would be the case, Jonathan.

525
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,119
I agree with you about the rejection of gnosticism and

526
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:29,440
many versions of neoplatonism. But as Filler himself argues, if

527
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,599
you properly understand neoplatonism, it doesn't have the one and

528
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:38,119
the relationality are always held together in the notion of

529
00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:42,279
ultimate reality. It's not the one and relationality. And because

530
00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:44,880
it's not a numerical one and it's not a substantial one,

531
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:52,640
it's the oneness of intelligibility in that sense. You So,

532
00:30:54,039 --> 00:31:05,559
now you may say, but what I have I want

533
00:31:05,599 --> 00:31:07,200
to I want to do this very carefully, you mate,

534
00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:10,359
You might be saying that, but in some sense you both.

535
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 3: Feel that's the wrong word. Sorry.

536
00:31:14,119 --> 00:31:19,039
Speaker 2: You both sense that you have had this personal relationship

537
00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:25,359
with Jesus and I'm not saying that in a dismissive fashion.

538
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,400
You understand that, please, Okay? Is is that what this

539
00:31:28,559 --> 00:31:36,519
is coming down to ultimately, because I.

540
00:31:37,359 --> 00:31:40,839
Speaker 6: Just it really depends what you what you mean by that.

541
00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, fair enough, fair enough, fair enough.

542
00:31:42,839 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: Because I I've heard versions of that that are that

543
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:46,920
I wouldn't identify with.

544
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 6: Let's just say, ah.

545
00:31:50,559 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: Well, let me say let me let me help you there,

546
00:31:52,599 --> 00:31:55,240
because you know, here's here's where, here's ways in which

547
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,200
it doesn't work for me. Because people will say I

548
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,519
feel the presence of Jesus and he's telling me to

549
00:32:00,519 --> 00:32:02,720
do X, and then this person over here says, I

550
00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:04,640
feel the presence of Jesus and he's telling me to

551
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,559
do not acts. And it's like, oh really, oh this

552
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,480
makes no sense to me whatsoever. Like that kind of

553
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,000
stuff does isn't going to track as an argument because

554
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,359
it just doesn't line up with the with the facts.

555
00:32:15,559 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 3: Okay, So.

556
00:32:18,799 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 4: Go ahead ahead, dere Yeah, so, and I knew this

557
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,920
about you, Jonathan, But I imagine, for example, when when

558
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:34,160
you have an actual experience of profound grief, utterly shattering

559
00:32:34,599 --> 00:32:38,559
right well again, well beyond maps, well beyond any notion

560
00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:43,119
deeper than your faith and a grief deeper than your faith,

561
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:50,839
and you notice that there's something there. You're not alone

562
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,279
in that grief. There's nothing else that you can imagine, right,

563
00:32:54,359 --> 00:32:59,160
but you're beyond mind, You're definitely beyond meditation. And you

564
00:32:59,559 --> 00:33:01,759
as you're into that, you noticed that that something has

565
00:33:01,839 --> 00:33:05,200
qualities and a way of naming those qualities is love.

566
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,680
So that's that would be an example of what that

567
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,720
means like when you, when you really, really really go

568
00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:18,119
to the experience of a profound relationship with how loss

569
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:24,559
works and the shattering of your ability to enter into

570
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:31,319
identity at all, you notice that non duality is not

571
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,200
the actual thing that's at the bottom, that there's something

572
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,119
more fundamental than that, and the only way we can

573
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,039
talk about it would be the thing that is called love.

574
00:33:44,519 --> 00:33:46,759
The same thing happens, by the way, from my point

575
00:33:46,759 --> 00:33:48,319
of view, if you go all the way to the

576
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,400
highest level. But that's a little bit trickier from my experience.

577
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: So can you say that last thing, because I so,

578
00:33:56,519 --> 00:33:58,720
first of all, thank you for that.

579
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 3: That's a powerful and rich thing to say. So I'm not.

580
00:34:06,519 --> 00:34:12,199
Speaker 2: You're aware that it's deeper than non duality. You're invoking,

581
00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:15,960
You're invoking spatial metaphors, which of course are transcended by

582
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,360
non duality. So I'm trying to get out what that

583
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,159
so I might have a sense of what you're talking about.

584
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:27,280
People talk about a sensed presence which is neither objective

585
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,599
nor subjective, neither emanating nor emergent, but deeper, and that

586
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,159
you don't know it by You don't know it by

587
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:37,920
other than participating it and being it. But what I

588
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,719
don't mean in a logical identity sense, when you're very

589
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,880
when you're deeply in love with somebody in an a

590
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,559
gopic way, Is that what you mean? And I again,

591
00:34:48,599 --> 00:34:50,119
I'm not trying to do a Judo move on you.

592
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:51,000
I'm trying to understand.

593
00:34:51,119 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 4: No, I get it. I mean people we're talking about here,

594
00:34:55,079 --> 00:35:00,599
talking about doing neuves surgery, which is perfec This is

595
00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:02,119
where this is where we are by the way I

596
00:35:02,159 --> 00:35:06,000
mean we meaning the species, where the species is actually

597
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,920
here that we gotta get this shift figured out. There's

598
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,079
no more knocking around, beating around the bush. We have

599
00:35:12,159 --> 00:35:16,920
to take the level of care and precision and actually

600
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:26,119
embodied love and clarity. It's necessary. So let's see hm

601
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:30,000
hm m hm ah man. What I noticed is that that,

602
00:35:32,039 --> 00:35:33,840
Oh okay, nice. So what I'm gonna do is I'm

603
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,440
gonna say something and it's actually going to be trick, okay,

604
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,519
but it's it's the best thing I can get out

605
00:35:39,519 --> 00:35:43,239
of my mouth right now, and an endeavor to laborably

606
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:43,840
get there.

607
00:35:44,039 --> 00:35:46,119
Speaker 3: I'll take it charitably, Jordan, I promise.

608
00:35:47,039 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 4: And by the way, I'm gonna reinforce it. It has

609
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,519
to be this has to be three. Yeah, you're you're,

610
00:35:51,559 --> 00:36:01,079
you're participating. Hmm. So if we go towards the direction

611
00:36:01,119 --> 00:36:04,480
of joy and so joy and grief being gates to

612
00:36:04,559 --> 00:36:10,280
this relationship. What we notice when we get to profound

613
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,920
levels of joy is a feeling of the presence of

614
00:36:14,599 --> 00:36:18,360
the infinite, like a proximity towards something which is of

615
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,559
the nature of the transcendent yet in the realm of

616
00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:24,039
the Internet, and something that is something that we are

617
00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:28,239
able to experience, but is increasingly accelerating beyond anything that

618
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:33,960
could actually be present or contained within experience, within the finite.

619
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,039
So we accelerate in that direction, and as we move

620
00:36:38,119 --> 00:36:42,480
in that direction, what we begin to notice is that

621
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:49,119
we do not actually dissolve into that, but rather are

622
00:36:49,159 --> 00:36:54,519
embraced by it and that's the key. The key difference

623
00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:03,360
is that the relationship between the infinite and the finite

624
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:09,920
is not a mistake. There's nothing about the way the

625
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:17,360
creation is that is not good, and that there's the

626
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,760
ability for us to be in a relationship that is

627
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:33,039
governed by that as a fundamental is howm I say, Hell,

628
00:37:33,079 --> 00:37:35,880
they I can't. It's not my words. Somebody else has

629
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:36,360
to say it.

630
00:37:39,159 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 3: Well.

631
00:37:39,639 --> 00:37:43,039
Speaker 1: I think that the thing that comes to me when when, when,

632
00:37:43,079 --> 00:37:47,760
when you're saying what you're saying, is that the Christianity,

633
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:53,119
I believe Christianity really does in its highest instantiations, really

634
00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:55,960
does have a sense that the source of reality is

635
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:56,639
is nondual.

636
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:58,760
Speaker 6: Right, that the way that we.

637
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: Describe God as a trinity is a way, is a

638
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,679
way to describe the infinite. Right, not a way, but

639
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:06,639
it's a it's a manifestation of the infinite in a

640
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,639
in a type of a porea that joins unity, emulcility together.

641
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,559
Speaker 6: You know, sam Maximus says things like God is being

642
00:38:12,599 --> 00:38:15,599
a non being, you know he language.

643
00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: Now, I think what what Jordan is bringing up, which

644
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,400
which I think is is really important in in the

645
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:28,920
vision of Christianity, is that Christianity deeply understands that that

646
00:38:29,119 --> 00:38:35,039
nondual is not is not in other it's not a

647
00:38:35,199 --> 00:38:38,119
vortex that swallows the world into it, right, that's not

648
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,599
something that out of that wants to call you out

649
00:38:41,639 --> 00:38:44,639
of being, that wants to call you of reality into

650
00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:49,320
into into some like infinite uh bliss or whatever that

651
00:38:49,559 --> 00:38:52,519
in that In fact, what it does is that it

652
00:38:52,639 --> 00:38:57,840
affords all of reality in it, but in a specific way. Right,

653
00:38:58,119 --> 00:39:01,480
there's a specific manner in which it makes the world exist,

654
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,559
you know, And and that way it is surprising at

655
00:39:05,599 --> 00:39:08,559
the outset because that in that way is something like

656
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:14,159
self sacrificial love, and that the self sacrificial love is

657
00:39:14,639 --> 00:39:18,320
the mode of existence. And so Christ manifests that in

658
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,079
the extreme. I manifest that in the you know, in

659
00:39:22,119 --> 00:39:26,280
a way that is kind of almost unbearable to to watch.

660
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,360
But it becomes it becomes an image of how it

661
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:34,800
is that that we can participate in non duality without

662
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,000
without escaping the world. We're not escaping our desires, we're

663
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,079
not escaping our bodies, we're not doing any of that stuff.

664
00:39:42,119 --> 00:39:46,079
We're not we're not denying any of the goodness of

665
00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:50,840
the world. And what that looks like is that image

666
00:39:51,079 --> 00:39:53,480
I think it's that image that I that I mentioned

667
00:39:53,679 --> 00:39:56,599
in the in Revelation, which is the King and the

668
00:39:56,639 --> 00:40:00,639
sacrifice together right, the highest and the lowest going together

669
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:02,840
and one of them affording the other.

670
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:03,079
Speaker 3: Right.

671
00:40:03,119 --> 00:40:05,079
Speaker 1: The reason why Christ is king is because he was

672
00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:07,880
on the cross, and you know, and and vice versa,

673
00:40:08,039 --> 00:40:10,119
that image of Jesus on the cross with the sign

674
00:40:10,159 --> 00:40:14,440
above that says the king, this is the king, folks uh.

675
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,760
And I think that that that all of Christianity is

676
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:23,000
about that, and that's why everything that Christians argue in

677
00:40:23,039 --> 00:40:27,039
the first centuries about the nature of Christ, about preserving

678
00:40:27,039 --> 00:40:30,480
his divinity, preserving his humanity. You know, all of these

679
00:40:30,559 --> 00:40:36,800
questions are about the way in which none the transcendent

680
00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:42,400
is actually the that which makes the the imminent exist.

681
00:40:43,159 --> 00:40:46,440
And that's the that's the balance that that Christianity brings

682
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:47,280
brings about.

683
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 6: Now, I don't know if there are other.

684
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,199
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not I'm not an expert on all

685
00:40:53,199 --> 00:40:53,960
world religions.

686
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,119
Speaker 6: I don't know if there are other forms that have that.

687
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: You know, that that anchor right, that that hold.

688
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 6: What I see in many other religions.

689
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 1: Is is a tendency to emphasize the escape right. We

690
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,440
have to and Christians, by the way, follow them that

691
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,199
all the time. And Christians actually will tend to say

692
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,880
things die and go to heaven like that kind of language.

693
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,760
It's it's actually profoundly not Christians. It's such a it's

694
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,960
such a habit that humans have to want to want that.

695
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,000
But when you look at even the Bible, or if

696
00:41:27,039 --> 00:41:29,639
you look at the way that the Fathers talk about Christianity,

697
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,039
it's not it's not at all that type of it.

698
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,360
Isn't that escape right, It's like the Kingdom of Heaven

699
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,880
is not the same as Heaven. It's that it's that

700
00:41:41,079 --> 00:41:41,920
joining together.

701
00:41:42,119 --> 00:41:46,599
Speaker 4: Right. Yeah, So again, I'm I'm actually gonna be playing

702
00:41:46,639 --> 00:41:49,559
with wooden knives right now that you're gonna get that.

703
00:41:49,599 --> 00:41:54,079
I think this might get there. So an invitation to

704
00:41:54,599 --> 00:42:00,280
break the wheel of karma, a vow not to the

705
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,079
real crime until every other conscious being, sentient being has

706
00:42:04,119 --> 00:42:09,880
done so, sentient sentient being, compared to an invitation to

707
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,480
get on your cross. That the proper orientation and the

708
00:42:14,519 --> 00:42:17,400
transcend it with the inminet is to pour itself into it,

709
00:42:18,559 --> 00:42:24,480
to actually so utterly love creation and this, yeah, this

710
00:42:24,559 --> 00:42:26,199
is this is it. So it's the key is like

711
00:42:26,559 --> 00:42:29,039
man Christians get this wrong all the time.

712
00:42:30,039 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 2: By the way, can I just interject it and very

713
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,079
one phrase. I respect the fact that you're demonstrating genuine

714
00:42:36,119 --> 00:42:39,480
reasonableness of entering into self criticism. I just wanted to

715
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,760
I just wanted to appreciate that. So please go, please

716
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:43,199
go ahead.

717
00:42:45,079 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 4: Yes, I think actually in some sense you maybe speaking

718
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,760
for the comments as well. Everybody. John just said, this

719
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:57,519
is genuine reasonable. It's not just in common. Okay, let's see.

720
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,119
So it's it's it's almost like the reverse direction, this

721
00:43:01,199 --> 00:43:07,639
notion of escape versus immerse right. The call is not

722
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:15,880
to alleviate suffering. The call is actually to recognize that

723
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:22,239
the world is so rich that suffering is intrinsic and meaningful.

724
00:43:22,639 --> 00:43:26,800
Something like that, that God, the actual transcendent, you know,

725
00:43:27,559 --> 00:43:31,239
Buddha nature, but in this case comes into reality and

726
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,440
lives directly with other people and suffers, in fact, not

727
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:40,760
just suffers, but allows himself to take on the fullness

728
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:46,320
of suffering, not to have us escape it, but to

729
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:51,599
remind you that that's actually the thing we are not.

730
00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:55,079
It's not like, oh man, suffering was an error. Tell

731
00:43:55,079 --> 00:43:57,000
you what, guys, I'll give you a suffering band aid.

732
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,280
So nobody ever suffers anymore. That's not the thing. It's rather, no,

733
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,079
the way this thing is supposed to work is you're

734
00:44:04,199 --> 00:44:09,880
descending into a deeper and deeper capacity to suffer, because

735
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:14,000
that's what engagement with reality actually is, is to undergo,

736
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,599
to undergo reality experience, and to grow and to mature.

737
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:22,079
And so instead of dying and escaping, what happens is

738
00:44:22,119 --> 00:44:25,320
you die and you enter into even deeper capacity to

739
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,599
enter into a relationship with a large and ever expanding reality.

740
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,559
In this again, this is the opposite of a naive

741
00:44:34,599 --> 00:44:37,840
notion of non duality, which is an elimination of difference,

742
00:44:38,119 --> 00:44:42,000
right right, It's actually no, no, it's an embracing of

743
00:44:42,079 --> 00:44:45,800
difference and a deeper wholeness that produces a deeper capacity

744
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,599
for differentiation in an ongoing unfolding.

745
00:44:51,039 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 2: Okay, this was really good, and none of these compliments

746
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,519
I'm giving you are facetious, so I'm trying to put

747
00:44:57,559 --> 00:45:00,320
a couple of things together. You got that this is

748
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,159
like an extended version of the reciprocal opening what you

749
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,239
just did. So you're acknowledging that that's good, and I

750
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:08,079
take it that that's what you mean by joy. The

751
00:45:08,079 --> 00:45:10,480
problem when people hear joys, they just mean they think

752
00:45:10,679 --> 00:45:13,599
intense pleasure, and that's not what we're talking about here.

753
00:45:14,679 --> 00:45:17,079
And of course you can forgive them for that, because

754
00:45:17,079 --> 00:45:19,800
we have this stupid word enjoyment, which just means intense pleasure,

755
00:45:20,559 --> 00:45:24,000
which really messes people up. Okay, So we've got that,

756
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,519
and we've got the idea that this reciprocal opening can

757
00:45:28,559 --> 00:45:33,800
be very Jonathan was pointing to, like there's a universal

758
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:39,119
temptation to misunderstand, misconstrue the reciprocal opening as escape. Rather,

759
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,440
it's an entering into deeper and deeper relation, is right,

760
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,039
And that's properly a gopic, right, because it's anagogic, a

761
00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:46,800
goopic together.

762
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,599
Speaker 3: Is that landing fairly? Okay?

763
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 2: And then the idea here is that what Christianity offers

764
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:03,800
is an alternative in which onto normativity being as fundamentally good,

765
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:08,440
not ethically good or aesthetically good or even epistemically good,

766
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:10,679
right beyond the true and the good and the beautiful,

767
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:15,320
it's just good being is good in this in this

768
00:46:15,679 --> 00:46:20,960
ontological sense. And that's what I heard you saying, in

769
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,159
some sense, is that is that fair? Like you're getting

770
00:46:24,199 --> 00:46:26,079
a sort of a reading of Genesis, God looks at

771
00:46:27,159 --> 00:46:27,920
the world is good.

772
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 3: He does.

773
00:46:29,599 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: He's not making a moral judgment, he's not making an

774
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,320
aesthetic judgment, he's not making an epistemic judgment because he's God, right,

775
00:46:35,639 --> 00:46:38,920
so he's he's saying something else. He's saying that being

776
00:46:39,159 --> 00:46:43,320
is intrinsically good. Qua being just by being, it is good.

777
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,679
So that's why escape is fundamentally wrong, because if being

778
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,320
is intrinsically good, seeking to escape from it is intrinsically wrong.

779
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 3: Am I getting your argument correctly?

780
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 4: Yeah?

781
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:59,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's it's interesting too about for example, Christian Christian.

782
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,679
Speaker 6: Theosis, like the notion of Christian theosis is.

783
00:47:03,199 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: You know, I remember when I was first interested in

784
00:47:05,519 --> 00:47:08,320
Orthodoxiology and I had read a lot of esoteric texts

785
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,519
from other traditions. There was something about Christian theostis which

786
00:47:11,519 --> 00:47:14,280
annoyed me because it was like it wasn't the real,

787
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:19,039
it wasn't the full thing. It wasn't like the complete, absolute, ecstatic,

788
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,760
you know, elimination of me. And then after that I

789
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,320
thought I realized, well, actually, no, wait a minute, Like

790
00:47:27,639 --> 00:47:30,599
I think that all things are good and so right,

791
00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:33,639
say Maxwell says that we participate, that we become God

792
00:47:33,679 --> 00:47:36,159
to the extent that that's possible. That's that's just the

793
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,400
that's in phrases he uses. Is what he means is

794
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,000
in something like we become God to the extent that

795
00:47:42,039 --> 00:47:45,480
the world can, that you continue to exist, that you

796
00:47:45,519 --> 00:47:49,920
continue because your being is good, as is good, it

797
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:54,360
has a goodness. You don't want to completely snuff out

798
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,360
the particularity that God has put in the world. And

799
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,599
so and it's when I kind of understood that that

800
00:48:01,679 --> 00:48:06,440
I realized that the image of theosis that Christianity presents

801
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,159
is something like the fullness of all things, right, so

802
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,280
all things are mirrored, are these reflections of God, and

803
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,119
that that is the fullness, That is the fullness like

804
00:48:17,159 --> 00:48:21,039
that that is more full in a very mysterious way.

805
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,079
I don't know how to say it metaphysically, but that

806
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,880
is more full than just the non dual God, right,

807
00:48:29,079 --> 00:48:32,840
just the the the God that transcends all things, that

808
00:48:33,119 --> 00:48:35,679
God that transcends all things, creating the world in love

809
00:48:36,159 --> 00:48:41,719
so that it becomes a transparent reflection of Himself in

810
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,360
a way that doesn't destroy any of that particular but rather,

811
00:48:44,559 --> 00:48:47,599
you know, gathers it in love, in multiplesity and unity.

812
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,280
That that's a bigger vision actually than being a drop

813
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,960
that goes back to Brahma.

814
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not here. I'm not going to. I'm not

815
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:56,840
trying to defend.

816
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 6: No, no, I don't want to. I'm just using example to

817
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:01,119
say why.

818
00:49:01,159 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 1: I think, you know, even my own process of kind

819
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,480
of seeing what what was precious about.

820
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 2: But I think this is good by the way I

821
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,480
think you're making so like I mean again, I think

822
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,599
this is if I think we're getting into the logos.

823
00:49:13,639 --> 00:49:17,360
I feel like these are good answers that are like,

824
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,719
are provoking me in a socratic way. I feel that,

825
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:22,400
and I just want to share that that's what it's

826
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:26,719
happening for me. Okay, so that's good. So now can

827
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,440
I in that spirit? There's two things here, So I

828
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,920
mean this, this issue has been broached in some very

829
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:37,679
deep interpersonal inter religious, i should say, but also interpersonal

830
00:49:38,559 --> 00:49:42,360
dialogue which goes onto the logos. Uh, there's Cobb's book,

831
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,119
you know, a dialogue, a Buddhist and Christian dialogue that

832
00:49:46,199 --> 00:49:50,760
is mutually transformative. And then even more importantly the anthology

833
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:55,440
around the work of Maso Abbe, which Christians and Jews

834
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,039
and others replied to, in which he said it's called

835
00:49:58,079 --> 00:50:00,519
emptying God, in which he said, well, what we're ultimately

836
00:50:00,559 --> 00:50:05,199
talking about here is canosis, right, And he basically says, well,

837
00:50:05,519 --> 00:50:11,079
doesn't canosis ultimately require right, the emptying of emptiness itself?

838
00:50:11,199 --> 00:50:13,800
This zen notion and he says, I don't seek Christianity,

839
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:19,159
getting uh to that in some way and a way

840
00:50:19,159 --> 00:50:22,039
of making this perhaps a little bit more creep concrete

841
00:50:22,079 --> 00:50:25,679
as Jonathan sort as Jordan keeps calling us back to

842
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,000
his I get what you're saying.

843
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,639
Speaker 3: How how do you make sure this isn't.

844
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 2: Just a crypto egoism, which is I don't want to

845
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,239
I don't want to cease to exist, and that's why

846
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:39,280
this so good.

847
00:50:39,559 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 1: But think about how what it looks like in practice.

848
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,119
But it looks like in practice is I am constantly trying.

849
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 6: To cease to exist. That's in the sense that.

850
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,199
Speaker 1: That Christianity, the idea of kinosis and of self empty.

851
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, keep going.

852
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:58,800
Speaker 1: Christianity functions is like humility, self sacrifice, you know, of

853
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:03,960
giving yourself, giving yourself in love and the surprise or

854
00:51:04,159 --> 00:51:06,880
or or the surprise really that that's the actual anchor

855
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,920
of being, That that's the actual anchor.

856
00:51:09,639 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 6: Of how you how you exist? Uh, you know and

857
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,480
the and and the and the resurrection in the end.

858
00:51:16,199 --> 00:51:19,559
Speaker 1: You know, what is resurrected is all my gestures of

859
00:51:19,599 --> 00:51:25,119
self sacrifice are resurrected into me, but me in I

860
00:51:25,119 --> 00:51:27,840
mean obviously in a mysterious way, in a mysterious So

861
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:33,119
there is something everything about Christianity is this kinosis with that.

862
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,199
Speaker 6: Understanding that you can't understand.

863
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,679
Speaker 1: Any of it, like why is why don't okay, why

864
00:51:37,679 --> 00:51:39,400
do we have all these things? Like you know, it's

865
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,320
like everything about it is this empty that that brings fullness.

866
00:51:43,679 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 2: Okay, So you're saying something really good, and I want

867
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,440
to push on it because I believe you're not making

868
00:51:48,519 --> 00:51:51,960
a performative contradiction. A performative contradiction is when you're making

869
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,320
a claim that undermines your ability to make the claim right,

870
00:51:54,679 --> 00:51:56,719
Like if if it is if I were to say

871
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,159
right now, I am completely unconscious. No, no, I have

872
00:51:59,159 --> 00:52:01,599
to be right a performance And I agree with Whitehead

873
00:52:01,639 --> 00:52:07,280
that performative contradictions are much more important than right propositional contrabas.

874
00:52:07,599 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, so good.

875
00:52:09,079 --> 00:52:12,199
Speaker 2: So one way it sounds like you're doing is you

876
00:52:12,599 --> 00:52:15,440
sound like saying, well, I'm pursuing this because right I

877
00:52:16,079 --> 00:52:19,360
think this dissolving or disappearing is really good. And then

878
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,159
what I'm trying to do is I follow this is

879
00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:25,639
to try to dissolve and disappear, and that sounds like well, no,

880
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,960
like who are you to make that? Like do you

881
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:31,960
see why? There's a bind there?

882
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 3: Right?

883
00:52:32,519 --> 00:52:35,039
Speaker 2: And you are pushing up against that. I want to

884
00:52:35,039 --> 00:52:38,480
give you space because I agree with what you just said.

885
00:52:39,119 --> 00:52:42,039
I think we're really again good deal logos, We're really

886
00:52:42,039 --> 00:52:43,960
moving into the heart of this. This really hangs on

887
00:52:44,039 --> 00:52:48,280
kenosis or obviously agape, but right it hangs on it

888
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:53,159
in a really really crucial manner. Okay, so I'm presenting

889
00:52:53,199 --> 00:52:55,800
this as a bit of a paper tiger. I hope

890
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,199
for you it's like, oh, you're not saying that, but

891
00:52:58,519 --> 00:53:00,320
say why you're not saying that more?

892
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:03,800
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, so Simpaul.

893
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:05,519
Speaker 1: You know, Saint Paul has this image where he says,

894
00:53:05,559 --> 00:53:07,280
it's not it's that, it's not I that live a

895
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,880
Christ that lives in me. And yeah, you know, it's

896
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,880
a beautiful sentence because it's it capturs the the it

897
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,079
captures the paradox, which he's not.

898
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 6: He's not actually saying I don't exist anymore.

899
00:53:19,199 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: Saying it's it's Christ that lives in me, and so

900
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:28,159
he's affirming himself to the extent that he is a manifestation.

901
00:53:27,679 --> 00:53:31,280
Speaker 6: Of the logos, and that is what is left.

902
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:31,519
Speaker 3: Now.

903
00:53:31,559 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 6: The way to go to get there is to.

904
00:53:37,519 --> 00:53:40,599
Speaker 1: You know, is to shed right, to shed a lot

905
00:53:40,679 --> 00:53:43,079
of the things that I my passions, the things that

906
00:53:43,119 --> 00:53:46,719
I care about, but that ultimately once I do that,

907
00:53:47,119 --> 00:53:49,559
once you do that and you you can experience it practically,

908
00:53:49,599 --> 00:53:51,079
it's not like I'm going to get to the end

909
00:53:51,119 --> 00:53:53,119
of it and all of a sudden, I'm going to realize, oh,

910
00:53:53,199 --> 00:53:55,559
I've been I've been self sacrificing this whole time, and

911
00:53:55,599 --> 00:53:59,320
so now finally it's like you see it happening NonStop,

912
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,719
which is that you when you enter into a loving

913
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,360
relationship with someone and you let go of your just

914
00:54:05,639 --> 00:54:07,960
proper desires and all the things that you want and

915
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,719
you kind of seed way to that, then you realize

916
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:15,519
that it brings the person you and them together and

917
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:17,000
what what comes out.

918
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:18,639
Speaker 6: Of it is more than what was there before.

919
00:54:19,199 --> 00:54:20,800
Speaker 1: And so you're like, oh, wait a minute, it's not

920
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,039
it's not like this one thing that I'm doing, like

921
00:54:23,159 --> 00:54:25,519
you know, I'm stacking all my good work so that

922
00:54:25,599 --> 00:54:28,280
when I died and you know what I mean, It's like, no,

923
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:32,519
I'm noticing it happen every day every time that I

924
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,880
that I enter into that motive being where I'm where

925
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,559
I'm where I'm not holding on and I'm not grasping.

926
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,039
Speaker 6: Then what happens is I see more come out of it, and.

927
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 1: I see more of of myself, Like I see more,

928
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,159
I see more of who I truly am right to say.

929
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're saying you're this you. First of all,

930
00:54:51,679 --> 00:54:53,920
I hear a couple of things here. There's the realization

931
00:54:54,039 --> 00:54:58,079
that the self is inherently diological, not a monad, a

932
00:54:58,079 --> 00:55:02,559
SELFI isolated thing, but it exis diologically, because that's your argument,

933
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:06,599
I think depends on that. Secondly, you're invoking reciprocal opening again,

934
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,039
and you're saying, if you put those two together, the

935
00:55:09,119 --> 00:55:11,719
self is diological and reciprocal opening. You can move from

936
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,800
being ecocentric to reality centric. But that doesn't feel like

937
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,480
a loss. That feels like a gain. Is that okay

938
00:55:17,519 --> 00:55:17,920
so far?

939
00:55:18,519 --> 00:55:21,079
Speaker 6: Yeah? Yeah, i'd say that.

940
00:55:20,519 --> 00:55:27,800
Speaker 2: Okay, really good, this is very good. So is it

941
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,920
fair to say I'm not trying to be I'm not

942
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:32,880
trying to be deductive. I'm trying to be diological, so

943
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:36,559
I'm not trying to be reductive. But is this is this?

944
00:55:37,679 --> 00:55:40,599
Is this the grounding of your faith? Do you know

945
00:55:40,639 --> 00:55:42,679
what I'm trying to say again, I'm not talking about

946
00:55:42,679 --> 00:55:46,199
propositions being derived from more deeper propositions. We've gone through

947
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:50,320
this thing about how do you get the particularity of

948
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,440
your Christian faith? Is this in that sense? Please be

949
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,719
fair to me. In that sense? Is this the grounding

950
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,000
of your Christian faith? The way I just described it?

951
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 4: Hmm? Okay, So I'm going to say it back to

952
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,440
you with yes, slightly different way, but I think I

953
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:07,760
heard you.

954
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 6: So.

955
00:56:11,199 --> 00:56:15,800
Speaker 4: So all three of us happen to be fathers, yes, children,

956
00:56:16,679 --> 00:56:19,920
and we have the first person experience therefore of the

957
00:56:20,519 --> 00:56:24,559
canosis that is intrinsic in parenting, all the way down

958
00:56:24,599 --> 00:56:26,079
to the color of the hair and your.

959
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:30,519
Speaker 2: Beard and yeah, and the loss of your life you

960
00:56:30,679 --> 00:56:32,079
lose years for every child.

961
00:56:32,199 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, And to the unique qualities of possibility of

962
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:49,440
joy that are exclusively possible in this creative act gated

963
00:56:49,519 --> 00:56:54,119
or mediated simultaneously by both the canosis and the communion,

964
00:56:56,519 --> 00:57:00,679
and the unparalleled degree of new qualities of grief available

965
00:57:01,679 --> 00:57:08,480
also in this experience and in the recognition in yourself

966
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:12,960
that both in spite of and because of the aforementioned,

967
00:57:13,559 --> 00:57:17,760
it is incomprehensible that you could be even vaguely who you.

968
00:57:17,719 --> 00:57:21,599
Speaker 3: Are absent that right, right, right right.

969
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,559
Speaker 4: That's probably the closest to the grounding of my faith

970
00:57:25,559 --> 00:57:29,239
that I can get to. I have a process where

971
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:34,400
I go, oh, oh, oh, right, if my grief at

972
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,280
the suffering of my children is ex how much greater

973
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:41,119
is God's grief as the suffering of all of creation?

974
00:57:43,079 --> 00:57:46,280
And I noticed that there's something about the these connections

975
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,599
where I can have a sense of real empathy down

976
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:54,639
and suddenly have a really weird sense of empathy. Uh huh,

977
00:57:55,199 --> 00:57:57,280
I get it. I get it now, I get you

978
00:57:57,360 --> 00:57:59,360
got in a weird way because I kind of now

979
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:01,800
I get my dad, oh, my actual dab, which I

980
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:05,480
didn't get before when my kids do something like, oh,

981
00:58:05,519 --> 00:58:07,079
I get it. I get what was going on in

982
00:58:07,079 --> 00:58:11,239
the experience of a being who loves me from the

983
00:58:11,239 --> 00:58:15,079
outside like from before I existed, and understands me in

984
00:58:15,119 --> 00:58:17,960
a certain context. And then through that line there's a

985
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,199
way of having a quality of relationship with Abah and

986
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,639
so that like the rightness of that, the way that

987
00:58:24,639 --> 00:58:28,400
that actually develops the way that grounds everything else, and

988
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:32,679
by the way we missed out also philosophically and metaphysically. Yeah,

989
00:58:32,719 --> 00:58:34,400
I would say that's probably the ground of my faith.

990
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 2: So I heard you saying I want to put two

991
00:58:39,039 --> 00:58:43,559
grounds together. If you'll prevent me from I hope I'm

992
00:58:43,559 --> 00:58:47,679
not grinding things. But like so, there was this one,

993
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:52,920
which is the ontonormativity, the goodness of being, And therefore

994
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,639
any attempt and I'm picking up on Jonathan here, any

995
00:58:55,639 --> 00:59:00,679
attempt to escape is ultimately misguided. And then I'm filling

996
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:05,480
that commitment to onto normativity yet entering into reciprocal opening,

997
00:59:05,519 --> 00:59:08,239
deep air relationship with the goodness of being, and the

998
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:12,159
best way I experience that is in the Kenosis understood

999
00:59:12,239 --> 00:59:14,800
as a gope. Because of course, parental love is the

1000
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:21,079
metaphor the paradigmatic example of a gopic love, and Christianity

1001
00:59:21,119 --> 00:59:24,519
captures that. Sorry I don't have the right verb here,

1002
00:59:24,519 --> 00:59:26,800
but just let me use that word captures that very

1003
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:27,320
well for you?

1004
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 3: Is that is that? Did I say it back to

1005
00:59:29,519 --> 00:59:30,639
you in a way that lands well?

1006
00:59:30,639 --> 00:59:33,519
Speaker 4: The captures part is not quite right, So yeah, it's

1007
00:59:33,639 --> 00:59:34,000
right with it.

1008
00:59:34,079 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I don't like it, but something like that, it's.

1009
00:59:36,679 --> 00:59:40,559
Speaker 4: More like strengthen clarify.

1010
00:59:40,679 --> 00:59:45,079
Speaker 3: Okay, the Fords makes possible and support.

1011
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:50,159
Speaker 4: So Fords is pretty supportant in both pattern matches. But

1012
00:59:50,199 --> 00:59:54,400
more than pattern matching provides a model, and more than modeling,

1013
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:58,400
provides the embodied body of the church, right natural living

1014
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:01,719
incarnation of the thing that the model is conveying. That

1015
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:04,039
is real in the sense that all the things that

1016
01:00:04,079 --> 01:00:06,119
I know in my deepest wisdom are the right ways

1017
01:00:06,119 --> 01:00:09,760
to be in relationship with other people are lived in

1018
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:11,000
the community of my church.

1019
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 2: Okay, So Christaul, thank you for this. You're both being

1020
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:21,400
very charitable to me, and I appreciate that. I do

1021
01:00:21,519 --> 01:00:25,599
think there are versions of Buddhism that are committed deeply

1022
01:00:25,679 --> 01:00:30,840
to non escape. Zen is a clear example of that.

1023
01:00:34,159 --> 01:00:40,360
The idea of nirvana as escape is explicitly, completely, repeatedly rejected.

1024
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:45,000
And then and there is the self emptying aspect in

1025
01:00:45,119 --> 01:00:48,840
relationship to that, And then there is the you know,

1026
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:50,639
it's not I who live, but the Buddha nature that

1027
01:00:50,719 --> 01:00:53,920
lives in me. All of these, if you'll allow me,

1028
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:57,679
and I'm searching for words, all of these functions, I'm

1029
01:00:57,719 --> 01:01:00,239
trying to use a neutral term, are found.

1030
01:01:00,119 --> 01:01:03,679
Speaker 3: There equally well.

1031
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 2: Now I'm not saying they're found equally well in all religions.

1032
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:14,039
I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. Okay again,

1033
01:01:14,079 --> 01:01:17,119
I'm I'm I'm You're doing.

1034
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:18,239
Speaker 3: What I'm asking you to do.

1035
01:01:18,719 --> 01:01:22,599
Speaker 2: You're showing me why this doesn't degenerate into, you know,

1036
01:01:22,639 --> 01:01:24,519
a liberal toleration kind of thing.

1037
01:01:25,559 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 3: Right, So what would you say?

1038
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: I mean, well, does does does Zen let's say, formulate

1039
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,639
the infinite as relational to the finite?

1040
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:44,119
Speaker 2: Yes, and so we can enter into emptiness's form form

1041
01:01:44,199 --> 01:01:46,119
is emptiness exactly explicitly.

1042
01:01:47,639 --> 01:01:49,559
Speaker 1: So so I mean, I know this is going to

1043
01:01:49,639 --> 01:01:52,599
sound weird, but then why isn't Why don't people pray

1044
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:53,880
in Zen?

1045
01:01:55,599 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 3: They do?

1046
01:01:57,519 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 2: So I I happen to know is Zen roshi and

1047
01:02:00,519 --> 01:02:05,239
he prays and he chants and and and and so forth.

1048
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 4: What is what is? What's the infinite? Like? Does it

1049
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:11,199
have humor?

1050
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:15,559
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Jordan, You're gonna be more precise in what

1051
01:02:15,559 --> 01:02:16,599
do you mean by that question?

1052
01:02:17,639 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 4: Well, you know, one of the things of something that

1053
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,679
has a character relationship is that it has a character relationship.

1054
01:02:24,119 --> 01:02:25,679
And so the question is something like.

1055
01:02:28,079 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 3: Well, Okay, let me answer that. Let me answer that first.

1056
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:34,679
Speaker 2: Okay, So you know this is Shallenberg who's an atheist,

1057
01:02:34,679 --> 01:02:36,280
but he says, what we're talking about, what we're talking

1058
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,639
about sacred is you know, it's ultimately real and again

1059
01:02:39,719 --> 01:02:42,000
not in the neutral sense and the ontonormative. I want

1060
01:02:42,039 --> 01:02:44,679
to participate in it. So that's a relationship term. I

1061
01:02:44,679 --> 01:02:47,199
want to participate in it. I want to conform to it.

1062
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:50,800
I want to reciprocally open, I want to really I

1063
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:53,239
want to be realized by it as I realize it

1064
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:58,320
all of that. Secondly, it's ultimately orienting, like people reorient

1065
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:00,559
towards it, right, and.

1066
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 3: It's ultimately transformative.

1067
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 2: It causes, you know, this deep deep, the deepest possible

1068
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:10,239
transformation from being egocentric to being profoundly reality centric.

1069
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:12,960
Speaker 4: But about you, that's the question. Does it care about you?

1070
01:03:14,039 --> 01:03:15,239
Speaker 3: Why does that matter to you?

1071
01:03:16,159 --> 01:03:20,639
Speaker 4: That's a question. It might matter a lot, but it's definitely.

1072
01:03:22,719 --> 01:03:27,559
Speaker 2: Well, so here's okay, if we let's do that. I mean, I'm.

1073
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 4: Basically trying to do like, what are the dots and

1074
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:30,960
see where the patterns match and if the isomorphic there

1075
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,360
isomorphic And this ends up being something that may not

1076
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:35,119
be isomorphic and then we can talk about it.

1077
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, So the the concern there is I would

1078
01:03:43,599 --> 01:03:46,079
I guess I'm going to try and speak on behalf

1079
01:03:46,119 --> 01:03:47,400
of a zen person.

1080
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 3: That's a little bit tricky.

1081
01:03:49,119 --> 01:03:51,599
Speaker 4: But speak on behalf of the Buddha specifically.

1082
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:58,159
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, drown will now be the Buddha, the Tathagata, right,

1083
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:04,599
you know. So my concern, and I mean this is

1084
01:04:04,639 --> 01:04:07,280
this is and this is not a concern that's like weird.

1085
01:04:07,639 --> 01:04:12,440
A lot of Christian theology has been responding to this concern,

1086
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:16,519
which is the anto theological critique. The problem when you

1087
01:04:16,599 --> 01:04:21,679
start saying it cares for me or He cares for me,

1088
01:04:22,199 --> 01:04:24,960
is it sounds like you're turning God into a person,

1089
01:04:25,639 --> 01:04:31,079
and persons are prototypical Aristotilian substances. In fact, that's Aristotle's

1090
01:04:31,079 --> 01:04:34,840
primary example of what a substance is a person, which

1091
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:37,199
I don't think is a good translation of hypostasis, by

1092
01:04:37,239 --> 01:04:42,199
the way, And it's like that seems to me to

1093
01:04:42,239 --> 01:04:48,800
be making a category mistake. If if ultimate reality, I'm

1094
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:50,880
gonna let you use the word God for what you're

1095
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:53,960
talking about, right, because we're trying to see the two meat.

1096
01:04:55,039 --> 01:05:01,880
If ultimate reality is pure relationality in this non escapist

1097
01:05:02,039 --> 01:05:05,679
form of non non duality that seems to preclude it

1098
01:05:05,679 --> 01:05:07,719
from being any kind of thing.

1099
01:05:10,119 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 4: Mm hmm, so could you could?

1100
01:05:14,519 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we're using analogies here, but obviously

1101
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:18,079
it's hard to talk about this.

1102
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 3: Yes, it is.

1103
01:05:19,119 --> 01:05:24,119
Speaker 1: It is I think the way to understand the Jordan's question,

1104
01:05:24,199 --> 01:05:27,440
which which is perfectly legitimate from a Christian standpoint, because

1105
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:30,039
we say God loves me, right and so.

1106
01:05:30,239 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't love my child because they love me.

1107
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:39,079
That's the that's not a gope. I love God Spinosa right,

1108
01:05:39,199 --> 01:05:40,599
You shouldn't if.

1109
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 1: You genuine then is there a sense of that relationship

1110
01:05:45,599 --> 01:05:46,400
with the infinite?

1111
01:05:46,519 --> 01:05:47,519
Speaker 6: Like is there a sense that.

1112
01:05:47,559 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 3: They love it? They love they love If that's what.

1113
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 4: You're as them.

1114
01:05:53,639 --> 01:05:56,159
Speaker 3: Why do you want that? You're a gopic You don't

1115
01:05:56,199 --> 01:05:57,199
want what you love to.

1116
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:00,239
Speaker 6: I'm not thing what you want. I'm saying, look it.

1117
01:06:00,639 --> 01:06:03,159
Speaker 4: Then I need to have the toutality of all possible

1118
01:06:03,199 --> 01:06:06,440
elitionality contained within the ultimate, and an ultimate that does

1119
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:09,519
not contain the affordance for relate to for loving John

1120
01:06:10,679 --> 01:06:14,119
literally logically is less than one that does. So that's it.

1121
01:06:15,239 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 2: No, No, because you're engaging to what sounds to my

1122
01:06:19,199 --> 01:06:22,920
mind like a performative contradiction. You're involved, You're invoking ultimate

1123
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:26,719
relationality and then pinning it to the existence of a

1124
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:30,920
specific subject that is capable of a predicate, namely loving.

1125
01:06:31,119 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 4: Okay, good, good good. No, So that's that's that's perfect.

1126
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:37,679
It's called it the This is the Aristotilian error.

1127
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,559
Speaker 2: Okay, I like that name. I don't like Aristole, so

1128
01:06:41,599 --> 01:06:51,360
go ahead, yeah.

1129
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:47,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

1130
01:06:47,599 --> 01:06:50,440
Speaker 2: So what I mean is I don't like the standard

1131
01:06:50,519 --> 01:06:54,199
reading of Aristotle that's got taken up in modern plows.

1132
01:06:55,239 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 4: Yeah. So this this notion that obvious say it right?

1133
01:07:03,639 --> 01:07:05,800
For God to love you, God must be a person

1134
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:07,079
in the sense of the substance.

1135
01:07:08,519 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 3: Not right, Yes, we agree on at them.

1136
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:19,519
Speaker 4: So for love to unfold the infinite qualities that are

1137
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:23,280
intrinsic to the nature of love, it must include within

1138
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:27,920
itself the quality of loving John, in fact, loving all

1139
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:30,480
John sells and all the John's quantum states. Right, but

1140
01:07:30,559 --> 01:07:35,440
John specifically is the example, using right now and any version.

1141
01:07:35,119 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 2: Of love all my quantum states I love that.

1142
01:07:38,719 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 4: Hey, the infinite is really big.

1143
01:07:43,719 --> 01:07:48,159
Speaker 2: That's a actually is not really big. The infinite is

1144
01:07:48,199 --> 01:07:50,000
not really big. Canter was going to jump all over

1145
01:07:50,079 --> 01:07:50,760
you for that one.

1146
01:07:54,719 --> 01:07:59,559
Speaker 4: And so any any way of endeavoring to how do

1147
01:07:59,599 --> 01:08:03,519
you say it? Any ontological? That's not right either.

1148
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:07,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is hard, and I understand that I'm pushing

1149
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:10,639
both really hard. But you're being very kind for me

1150
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:11,079
to me.

1151
01:08:11,679 --> 01:08:13,639
Speaker 4: I'm not. Yeah, I don't know about John, but I've

1152
01:08:13,679 --> 01:08:18,119
been doing a Monday Wednesday fast and so sorry Friday Wednesday, Friday.

1153
01:08:20,199 --> 01:08:21,760
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Jordan.

1154
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:23,399
Speaker 4: I thought I'm not going to break fast. I'm ready

1155
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:24,720
to go with John on this.

1156
01:08:25,239 --> 01:08:29,079
Speaker 6: You don't have to do a strict fast.

1157
01:08:28,119 --> 01:08:31,520
Speaker 4: In the Actually being faint is probably perfect, the perfect

1158
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:35,520
state in my weakness, just strength is.

1159
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:39,760
Speaker 3: Jordan? Can I say one thing that might be helpful?

1160
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:41,640
Speaker 2: Not because I think it's full agreement, but it might

1161
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:43,479
close the distance and give you something to work with.

1162
01:08:45,199 --> 01:08:46,279
Speaker 3: I feel.

1163
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:56,479
Speaker 2: Welcomed, enveloped, afforded by a gape by Logos, right, But

1164
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:59,279
I don't I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't want to

1165
01:08:59,279 --> 01:09:03,920
create the scent and agape Logos loves me, even though

1166
01:09:04,199 --> 01:09:07,439
it's analogous to what it's like when somebody's loving me.

1167
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:12,319
Are you saying that because it's Binosa's fine with that too.

1168
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:15,800
The same love by which I love God is how

1169
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:18,359
God loves himself, and the love by which God loves

1170
01:09:18,399 --> 01:09:20,760
me is the same love that I have for reality.

1171
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:22,119
Speaker 3: That's that kind of thing.

1172
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,159
Speaker 4: No, No, what I'm saying is that the totality of

1173
01:09:26,239 --> 01:09:29,000
all possible ways of entering into the relationship of love,

1174
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:32,479
including the ones that you have with your son, but

1175
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:37,199
not limited to and much more, is contained in love,

1176
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:38,640
which is the name of God.

1177
01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:40,600
Speaker 3: Right.

1178
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 2: But it I mean so again, I tried to say

1179
01:09:44,039 --> 01:09:45,840
something and this is a little bit trite. It's something

1180
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:49,319
like saying like and you know, to be fair to me,

1181
01:09:49,399 --> 01:09:53,960
Nicholas Ifkuza says this love loves and love is one

1182
01:09:54,039 --> 01:09:56,079
with the beloved. He gets the trinity out of love.

1183
01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:59,600
There's love, there's the beloved, and there's the loving.

1184
01:10:00,119 --> 01:10:00,279
Speaker 3: Right.

1185
01:10:00,319 --> 01:10:04,199
Speaker 2: But he says, there's ultimately just love, and you shouldn't

1186
01:10:04,199 --> 01:10:06,159
think of it as love loving, although you can talk

1187
01:10:06,199 --> 01:10:09,279
that way. So I'm quoting a Christian here. By the way,

1188
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:13,640
I'm not trying to impose something from the outside. Like

1189
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,039
I said, I don't have any problem with the idea

1190
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:21,199
that I I Well, I said it a long time

1191
01:10:21,239 --> 01:10:24,319
ago when I talked about agape agape precedes me, it'll

1192
01:10:24,359 --> 01:10:27,000
be after me. It is through me, and I am

1193
01:10:27,079 --> 01:10:33,840
totally indebted to it, and therefore I feel gratitude and gratefulness.

1194
01:10:34,239 --> 01:10:36,399
And of course I mean logos as well as agape.

1195
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:40,079
And for me, that's what it's like to Well, that's

1196
01:10:40,119 --> 01:10:43,560
what I hear when people say I'm being loved by God?

1197
01:10:44,239 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 4: So what about what about something like intimacy?

1198
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:46,159
Speaker 3: Oh?

1199
01:10:46,199 --> 01:10:49,079
Speaker 4: Sorry quick, I gotta do a rule check. So I

1200
01:10:49,159 --> 01:10:52,880
got to go to our resident author, bro. I know

1201
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:55,079
this stuff. Nicolusa a heretic?

1202
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:58,920
Speaker 6: I think is he a heretic? And the orthoctally it's

1203
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:00,840
it's irrelevant. What date is Nicholas?

1204
01:11:02,399 --> 01:11:04,600
Speaker 3: Uh, he's what the fifteen hundred?

1205
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:07,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's irrelevant. It's like it's we don't talk about

1206
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:08,279
that because they're all.

1207
01:11:08,239 --> 01:11:10,239
Speaker 4: Here, all heretics. Okay, good, So we could just throw

1208
01:11:10,279 --> 01:11:10,600
him out with.

1209
01:11:13,199 --> 01:11:15,520
Speaker 2: He's not a heretic in the Catholic Church, which means

1210
01:11:16,159 --> 01:11:20,520
unlike and unlike Eckhart, none of his propositions were considered.

1211
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:24,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, that card, even that card, like we don't know

1212
01:11:24,359 --> 01:11:28,119
which proposition for questions like yeah, he's being red card

1213
01:11:28,199 --> 01:11:32,840
for it has been pretty much re re exonerate, re

1214
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:34,319
exonerated at this point.

1215
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,600
Speaker 6: His statements are probably the praises that we're that we're questionable.

1216
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:40,960
They're probably not in his writings anymore. Anyways, we can't.

1217
01:11:42,359 --> 01:11:44,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the topic that maybe I would put on

1218
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:47,239
there and maybe even leave it there for the moment,

1219
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:49,720
is that there's this notion of the concept of intimacy,

1220
01:11:51,600 --> 01:12:00,880
the quality of intimacy that must be present for and

1221
01:12:01,199 --> 01:12:05,159
again I'm just sticking here as a straight logic. If

1222
01:12:05,159 --> 01:12:08,279
it's if it exists at all in reality, then it

1223
01:12:08,359 --> 01:12:10,640
must be an expression of that which is the ultimate.

1224
01:12:11,199 --> 01:12:13,119
And the question is is that actually part of this

1225
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:17,960
of the infinite or the one or the ultimate? If

1226
01:12:18,039 --> 01:12:22,319
you're if you have a relationship of intimacy, an intimacy

1227
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:27,239
is reciprocal in nature, You're not. You're vulnerable, yes, but

1228
01:12:27,279 --> 01:12:31,960
there's also something like a reciprocal vulnerability. Again back to

1229
01:12:32,039 --> 01:12:35,279
our the fact that Christ incarnated and actually died on

1230
01:12:35,399 --> 01:12:39,439
across for a variety of different reasons. But part of

1231
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:42,319
that is actually there's a reciprocity of relationality.

1232
01:12:42,359 --> 01:12:42,439
Speaker 5: Here.

1233
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:47,399
Speaker 4: You're actually entering into into a quality where and by

1234
01:12:47,399 --> 01:12:49,600
the way, an actual person, which is important right that

1235
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:52,800
the quality of personhood. It does not define God, but

1236
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:54,640
it's a part of the of something that God is

1237
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:58,840
actually expressing or I agree with you. Of course, the

1238
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:03,239
hypostasis is deeper than persona a. So that's I think

1239
01:13:03,239 --> 01:13:07,880
a question is probably worth circling around. Is this very

1240
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:11,359
precise point of what is the essence of the quality

1241
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:14,239
of the relationship of love and where does it sit

1242
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:18,159
in the larger kind of cosmologies and theologies.

1243
01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:22,119
Speaker 1: Now, I just want to say something also about about

1244
01:13:22,159 --> 01:13:26,680
the idea that God loves us. The way I think

1245
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:30,319
the best way to also understand that is the way

1246
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:35,640
this recip proco reciprocity that we have that you know,

1247
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:39,119
God says, Christ says, love God and love your neighbor.

1248
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:46,520
That's also how God loves you. Right, It's similar to

1249
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:49,119
what you were referring to before John in Dante. You

1250
01:13:49,199 --> 01:13:52,279
see it very beautifully. We're actually doing a class on

1251
01:13:52,399 --> 01:13:56,520
Dante right now. And the sense that God, the people

1252
01:13:56,680 --> 01:14:00,239
that come into your life with with love, that that

1253
01:14:00,399 --> 01:14:04,119
you enter into a loving relationship with, they are the

1254
01:14:04,319 --> 01:14:06,680
call to love God. They are in some ways the

1255
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:11,840
draw drawing you into the love of God by their love. Right,

1256
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:14,479
you have this beautiful image in the in the comedy

1257
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:20,439
where where basically it doesn't even say that God called

1258
01:14:20,520 --> 01:14:22,720
like because it's too high. But there's a sense in which,

1259
01:14:23,119 --> 01:14:26,159
you know, the mother of God, the virgin Mary, calls

1260
01:14:26,239 --> 01:14:32,600
upon Dante's patron saint, who then calls upon Beatrice, who

1261
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:34,880
then Beatrice then goes and gets Virgil.

1262
01:14:35,279 --> 01:14:39,159
Speaker 6: And now Virgil comes to encounter counter Dante.

1263
01:14:39,279 --> 01:14:42,319
Speaker 1: And so you have this chain of love which which

1264
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:47,479
moved up right, the ontological ladder into God's love, which

1265
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:51,600
is pulling all these things into him. And so you know,

1266
01:14:52,039 --> 01:14:55,399
you know, we can obviously we can experience sometimes glimmers

1267
01:14:55,479 --> 01:15:00,840
of the directly God's love. But to say God loves

1268
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:03,640
us is to state is the same thing as to

1269
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:04,159
state that.

1270
01:15:04,239 --> 01:15:06,960
Speaker 6: The world is good. It's the same thing.

1271
01:15:07,039 --> 01:15:10,079
Speaker 1: It's to say that that that all these all these

1272
01:15:10,279 --> 01:15:15,319
aspects of reality are a piece of the ladder. There's

1273
01:15:15,439 --> 01:15:18,760
there an aspect of not in a utilityartan way, but

1274
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:20,279
there are a ladder into God.

1275
01:15:20,399 --> 01:15:21,680
Speaker 6: They're a step there.

1276
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:24,920
Speaker 1: There's something which is which is possibly revealing God to

1277
01:15:25,039 --> 01:15:26,239
me at this moment.

1278
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:27,800
Speaker 6: And if I can be in the.

1279
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:32,239
Speaker 1: Right posture, then I I can climb that ladder. I

1280
01:15:32,279 --> 01:15:34,800
can see through the love of those around me through

1281
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:37,399
all the all all of this that's pulling me into

1282
01:15:38,239 --> 01:15:42,479
into into God and the and the mysterious, The most

1283
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:44,399
the hardest part of it and the most mysterious part

1284
01:15:44,399 --> 01:15:47,079
of it is that sometimes when the love of those

1285
01:15:47,159 --> 01:15:52,479
around me is evacuated, where I actually encounter hostility, that

1286
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:57,079
also becomes a ladder for the love of God to

1287
01:15:57,159 --> 01:16:00,520
pull me into Him. Because it's as if now it's

1288
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:02,880
a more direct it's a I can, I can I

1289
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:07,119
can have access to a more direct relationship with God

1290
01:16:07,199 --> 01:16:09,039
even when I'm being when people when when.

1291
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,479
Speaker 6: Christ says, blessed are those that are persecuted for my sake?

1292
01:16:13,319 --> 01:16:17,399
Speaker 1: That there's so there's both of those are ways in

1293
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:20,880
which we can have this experience of the way that

1294
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:23,560
God loves us, both through the hierarchy of love of

1295
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:25,880
all the others, but then also when we are when

1296
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:31,680
we are attacked and for for for for wrong reasons,

1297
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:33,720
and you know, for the name of Christ, you can

1298
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:35,840
say you know, and then all of a sudden, the love.

1299
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:39,199
Speaker 6: Of Christ will also pull us into into Him.

1300
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:42,520
Speaker 1: And if you haven't experienced it, obviously it's hard to describe,

1301
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:45,319
but it's something that you definitely do experience.

1302
01:16:48,439 --> 01:16:52,560
Speaker 2: So those two those two things Duran's point about intimacy

1303
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:54,680
and what you just said seem to go really well

1304
01:16:54,760 --> 01:17:04,319
together in my mind. And I understand, uh, intimacy as

1305
01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:07,840
the affordance of reciprocal opening. So I can I have

1306
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:12,199
intimacy if I can in dwell somebody and then they

1307
01:17:12,239 --> 01:17:16,079
can indwell me a deep, profound, participatory knowing, and and

1308
01:17:16,199 --> 01:17:24,199
then that affords reciprocal opening. And again, I think I

1309
01:17:24,319 --> 01:17:27,000
can have that kind of intimacy with what we've already

1310
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:30,960
agreed with ontonormativity, which is really real and I love

1311
01:17:31,039 --> 01:17:34,479
it because it's really real, and I do experience it

1312
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:40,600
in like like like Jonathan said in logo, sagape horizontally

1313
01:17:41,159 --> 01:17:45,159
with other people and upwardly and downwardly into the depths

1314
01:17:45,199 --> 01:17:49,760
and up ontologically. All of that is is the case

1315
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:55,479
I But like I say, and maybe this is me uh,

1316
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:59,960
but I find that I don't deny that I can

1317
01:18:02,239 --> 01:18:05,560
whatever everything, I can resonate with that in Christian Jonathan,

1318
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:08,399
I was there on the Gospel seminar, and I made

1319
01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:09,239
that clear.

1320
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:12,520
Speaker 3: But right, I also.

1321
01:18:14,079 --> 01:18:18,720
Speaker 2: Have that in the depths of Buddhist zen, especially the

1322
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:24,319
depths of Neoplatonism. And and again and maybe this is

1323
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:28,439
ultimately maybe we're pushing on something that is maybe something

1324
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:33,000
that we can't ultimately get out into a formal thing, right,

1325
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:36,880
And I may be, you know, I may I may

1326
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:39,960
be asking for something that I can't ultimately get. What

1327
01:18:40,319 --> 01:18:44,039
I hope I've offered is a way of explicating a

1328
01:18:44,119 --> 01:18:47,439
lot more what you were saying, Jordan, And this is

1329
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:49,560
a I think this is a much better answer, if

1330
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:52,880
you'll allow me to, Jim, than the one that you

1331
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:58,079
were trying to work out, because I think that's that's

1332
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:01,399
as a friend, because I think this is this is

1333
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:03,800
the kind of thing that is the way you try

1334
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:08,159
to persuade people why you're a Christian in a way

1335
01:19:08,239 --> 01:19:11,399
that I think is profoundly has potential to be what

1336
01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:13,960
I hope you think it is or wanted to be,

1337
01:19:14,039 --> 01:19:17,319
which is profoundly calling to them rather than you know

1338
01:19:17,359 --> 01:19:20,239
what I mean. It's like we went down this and

1339
01:19:20,319 --> 01:19:23,640
there was a like I thought this was really good.

1340
01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:26,439
I thought this was genuine And I'm not trying to

1341
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:30,960
escape now or anything like that, but to understand what

1342
01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:33,920
I'm saying, I like there could be a point where

1343
01:19:34,079 --> 01:19:38,479
we're looking for a difference that we can't that's ineffable

1344
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:41,760
that like, because I keep saying yes, I have that right,

1345
01:19:42,319 --> 01:19:45,119
and and not trivially so because I'll say this and

1346
01:19:45,199 --> 01:19:49,800
you'll go, yes, that makes sense, right, And but I'm

1347
01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:54,079
not trying to be reductive either. Sorry, I'm now you

1348
01:19:54,119 --> 01:19:56,359
can see that I'm running out because I'm starting to

1349
01:19:56,439 --> 01:19:59,279
go into a poia, So I'll stop and let you

1350
01:19:59,399 --> 01:20:00,279
two respond.

1351
01:20:00,039 --> 01:20:00,760
Speaker 3: To what I just said.

1352
01:20:01,359 --> 01:20:05,840
Speaker 4: Well, it's interesting. So what I noticed was that I

1353
01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:10,880
definitely don't want to persuade anybody. I don't necessarily even

1354
01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:12,760
want to call anybody, which is weird because I know

1355
01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:14,960
that that's I think, what you're supposed to do.

1356
01:20:15,079 --> 01:20:21,039
Speaker 3: But whatever, Yeah, it is kind of.

1357
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:26,159
Speaker 4: All I want to do is tell the truth and

1358
01:20:26,279 --> 01:20:28,760
all I want. All I want to do is as

1359
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:32,000
best I can the model that Christ laid down for us,

1360
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:34,720
and to the degree to which you know, the Spirit

1361
01:20:35,439 --> 01:20:38,119
puts something for me to do, to do it with

1362
01:20:38,199 --> 01:20:40,000
as much skill as I can, which is not much,

1363
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:44,119
because I don't know. It's critical. I don't understand. I

1364
01:20:44,239 --> 01:20:46,239
definitely know that it's the weird thing. It's like the

1365
01:20:46,279 --> 01:20:48,560
invert that Socrates thing. I am quite certain that I

1366
01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:51,800
don't understand how any of this works, and that anything

1367
01:20:51,840 --> 01:20:54,560
that I might try to do is definitely a bad

1368
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:57,600
idea in a very particular kind of way.

1369
01:20:58,000 --> 01:20:58,319
Speaker 2: And so.

1370
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:02,319
Speaker 4: I'm really glad that you asked us to have this

1371
01:21:02,399 --> 01:21:06,600
conversation at a very distinct sense that this is it

1372
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:08,439
will rile a bunch of people up. But you know,

1373
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:10,880
as you said, though it was it called persecuted in

1374
01:21:11,039 --> 01:21:15,000
his sake, in his name, But I feel like what

1375
01:21:15,079 --> 01:21:19,359
we did was useful in a big way, and good.

1376
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:22,039
Speaker 3: Very good, well, thank you.

1377
01:21:22,359 --> 01:21:25,640
Speaker 2: I mean, this is this is, if you'll allow me,

1378
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:28,600
this is I'm trying to and I'm showing up in

1379
01:21:28,640 --> 01:21:30,840
good faith. So this was an instrumental or anything I

1380
01:21:31,079 --> 01:21:33,079
have affection, I showed up in good faith. But this

1381
01:21:33,319 --> 01:21:37,079
is this, this is the philosophical selk road I'm trying

1382
01:21:37,119 --> 01:21:40,359
to get to where we can get into these deeply

1383
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:48,359
mutually transformative right the logos about relationships to sacredness, such

1384
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:54,800
that it's reasonable to believe in the Blaban sense that

1385
01:21:54,960 --> 01:21:58,399
we're affording the advent of the sacred, We're helped, we're

1386
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:02,039
affording its presencing in people's lives in a way that

1387
01:22:02,159 --> 01:22:07,239
could matter to them. And so that's what I wanted

1388
01:22:07,279 --> 01:22:09,520
to do. I wasn't, and I hope I showed up

1389
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:11,880
that way. I wasn't trying to refute anything I was.

1390
01:22:12,079 --> 01:22:15,640
I wanted I wanted to get the juice out, if

1391
01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:16,640
I can put it that way.

1392
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:22,119
Speaker 1: Sorry, I think there's there's also something that this is

1393
01:22:23,039 --> 01:22:25,920
and I want to be careful that people don't take

1394
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:28,680
this the wrong way, because I really am a Christian

1395
01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:32,760
in every way. I really believe Christianity is the is

1396
01:22:32,840 --> 01:22:37,920
the fullest revelation. But there's also a more practical aspect,

1397
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:43,039
which is that there's a real practical aspect to the

1398
01:22:43,159 --> 01:22:45,880
to the idea that that we can't be meta like

1399
01:22:46,439 --> 01:22:51,079
there's no, we're not meta practitioners. And I think that

1400
01:22:51,199 --> 01:22:54,000
that's what that's That's that's important.

1401
01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:54,039
Speaker 6: Too, is that.

1402
01:22:56,039 --> 01:23:00,399
Speaker 1: Now the reality of being a Christian is not it's

1403
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:03,720
not lived in asking you know, how better is it

1404
01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:04,399
from zen?

1405
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:07,520
Speaker 6: Let's say, right, it's it's lived in your.

1406
01:23:07,479 --> 01:23:11,600
Speaker 1: Morning prayers and going to communion and to confession and

1407
01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:15,079
to you know, and and living it with your family

1408
01:23:15,479 --> 01:23:20,399
and your community. So that's also like a that's something

1409
01:23:20,439 --> 01:23:23,119
that can be completely ignored right in the discussion that

1410
01:23:23,479 --> 01:23:30,359
although there are probably better people than us to argue

1411
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:35,319
like the fine points of theology and of of you know,

1412
01:23:35,399 --> 01:23:38,560
and the differences, let's say, in the metaphysics of the

1413
01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:41,279
different systems. At least I know that there are better

1414
01:23:41,319 --> 01:23:45,279
people than me to do that. But there is also

1415
01:23:45,359 --> 01:23:47,760
that other part, which is which I think is important,

1416
01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:49,720
which is like I said that.

1417
01:23:50,159 --> 01:23:53,199
Speaker 6: The Christianity I live is that's it.

1418
01:23:53,359 --> 01:23:55,680
Speaker 1: It's like I go to church on Sundays and and

1419
01:23:56,119 --> 01:23:59,159
I live my life in relationship with God, and it's

1420
01:23:59,199 --> 01:24:02,239
something that's real and existential and and.

1421
01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:08,520
Speaker 6: And I actually, although it has happened in my life

1422
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:09,159
where I've had.

1423
01:24:09,079 --> 01:24:12,800
Speaker 1: To ask myself that question, you know about different systems

1424
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:16,079
in moments of crisis, let's say that is definitely not

1425
01:24:16,239 --> 01:24:19,039
something that feeds my every day life.

1426
01:24:19,079 --> 01:24:21,319
Speaker 6: Like I don't. I don't ask those questions.

1427
01:24:21,039 --> 01:24:23,279
Speaker 3: Most of the time, you know, I don't want to truspass.

1428
01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:27,319
Speaker 6: Most people don't either, because they live they live in

1429
01:24:27,399 --> 01:24:28,399
the world that they live in.

1430
01:24:29,039 --> 01:24:31,560
Speaker 2: And I'm not trying to trespass on that at all.

1431
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:35,560
But but but you don't want that to become a

1432
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:40,560
justification of insolarity. No, obviously, because that we I mean,

1433
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:43,399
and this is part of I think we're Jordan, and

1434
01:24:43,439 --> 01:24:47,159
I still agree the world needs to form a some

1435
01:24:47,399 --> 01:24:50,199
kind of common unity or else we're on a lot

1436
01:24:50,239 --> 01:24:54,479
of trouble and it's not going to happen. Now we're

1437
01:24:54,520 --> 01:24:56,560
in the practical domain. Now, so we've all agreed with

1438
01:24:56,720 --> 01:24:58,720
left down the theology, it's not going to happen by

1439
01:24:58,720 --> 01:25:02,920
converting the world into christ Christianity at least you've been

1440
01:25:02,960 --> 01:25:05,399
trying for two thousand years. It hasn't happened. And so

1441
01:25:06,079 --> 01:25:10,399
I have a good inductive argument. And so I think again,

1442
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:13,279
we now agreed that we've moved into the practical domain.

1443
01:25:14,199 --> 01:25:17,119
At this practical domain, trying to afford this kind of

1444
01:25:17,199 --> 01:25:20,039
deep the logos is I think what is pertinent now

1445
01:25:20,520 --> 01:25:21,760
in that practical domain.

1446
01:25:23,039 --> 01:25:26,680
Speaker 1: Well, I think there's there's always there's always room for

1447
01:25:27,039 --> 01:25:29,319
learning from each other, you know, And I think that

1448
01:25:29,439 --> 01:25:32,479
that's not that I don't think that's that's not a

1449
01:25:32,560 --> 01:25:33,640
problem at all.

1450
01:25:33,840 --> 01:25:35,840
Speaker 6: I don't see that as an issue, you know.

1451
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 1: And you can even learn from other people's you know,

1452
01:25:39,119 --> 01:25:43,560
you can you can meet a Muslim, meet a Zen practitioner,

1453
01:25:43,680 --> 01:25:45,720
meet a Jew, meet someone who's not in your religion

1454
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:49,840
and find deep admiration of their moral strength, of their

1455
01:25:50,399 --> 01:25:53,279
of their faith, of their you know, of how they're

1456
01:25:53,319 --> 01:25:55,039
transformed by by.

1457
01:25:55,000 --> 01:25:57,279
Speaker 6: Something that is beyond them. And I think, at least

1458
01:25:57,359 --> 01:25:59,640
in my opinion, I don't think that that's an issue

1459
01:26:00,159 --> 01:26:04,840
at all for me. And so I think that there

1460
01:26:05,079 --> 01:26:08,000
there there has to be ways that we can.

1461
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:14,199
Speaker 1: Encounter others and learn from each other and see what's

1462
01:26:14,239 --> 01:26:22,079
good about other other world without it being trying to

1463
01:26:22,760 --> 01:26:27,439
formulate constantly which world is better.

1464
01:26:28,039 --> 01:26:31,119
Speaker 2: Like, no, you see what I'm saying, Like you just

1465
01:26:31,279 --> 01:26:35,119
articulated the philosophical silk Lad that's exactly the philosophical silk

1466
01:26:35,159 --> 01:26:37,000
Lad project as you just particulated.

1467
01:26:37,399 --> 01:26:41,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, it definitely isn't ideological, right you can say if

1468
01:26:41,319 --> 01:26:44,880
it's certain there definitely has nothing to do with competing

1469
01:26:44,920 --> 01:26:50,479
ideologies or the desire to create a totalizing, universal meta ideology.

1470
01:26:51,359 --> 01:26:52,079
Definitely not that.

1471
01:26:53,319 --> 01:26:56,399
Speaker 1: And even eschatologically, you know, if you look at the

1472
01:26:56,439 --> 01:26:59,079
way that's described in Scripture, the idea that all people

1473
01:26:59,159 --> 01:27:01,479
are going to become Christian is just not there.

1474
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:04,000
Speaker 6: It's just not just not in the it's not in

1475
01:27:04,119 --> 01:27:07,119
the story like it actually seems to go the other way.

1476
01:27:07,239 --> 01:27:10,479
It actually seems to go like, you know, a bunch

1477
01:27:10,479 --> 01:27:11,039
of people.

1478
01:27:10,800 --> 01:27:13,319
Speaker 1: Are gonna become Christian, and then people are gonna hate

1479
01:27:13,359 --> 01:27:14,800
you and they're gonna persecute you.

1480
01:27:15,239 --> 01:27:18,199
Speaker 6: So it's not gonna it's not gonna play out like

1481
01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:22,079
in this. I think that that Islam has a more

1482
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:25,199
might have a more more of.

1483
01:27:25,319 --> 01:27:28,279
Speaker 1: A a tendency to think that we're just gonna get

1484
01:27:28,319 --> 01:27:32,039
everybody's gonna become this thing. Although Christians have you know,

1485
01:27:32,119 --> 01:27:34,680
definitely you're evangelized, But I don't I don't see how

1486
01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:40,039
how even in the Christianity's own cosmo cosmology, you can

1487
01:27:40,159 --> 01:27:42,680
imagine that at some point everybody's just going to become

1488
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:45,479
Christian like in the Eschaton, you know.

1489
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:50,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean again, I mean there there are Eastern

1490
01:27:50,159 --> 01:27:52,920
Orthodox David Bentley Hart who are universalists.

1491
01:27:54,800 --> 01:27:55,039
Speaker 3: He's not.

1492
01:27:55,159 --> 01:27:59,880
Speaker 4: He's not a universalist in Kronos, Yeah, if you.

1493
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:02,319
Speaker 6: David.

1494
01:28:03,199 --> 01:28:05,960
Speaker 1: I love Daved ben Ley Hart. I loved his writings

1495
01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:08,279
for many years. I thought he was amazing. I think

1496
01:28:08,359 --> 01:28:12,840
that I think sadly, I think he's he's slipping into syncretism.

1497
01:28:13,479 --> 01:28:17,079
His universalism is pushing him towards uh more of a

1498
01:28:17,119 --> 01:28:20,640
syncretic approach, and so I think that that's kind of

1499
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:22,479
that's kind of too bad. A lot of his ideas

1500
01:28:22,479 --> 01:28:24,439
are still really useful, you mean.

1501
01:28:24,399 --> 01:28:28,840
Speaker 2: Bad syncretism, because all religions are syncretists in some fashion, yes,

1502
01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:29,319
but they're not.

1503
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:30,000
Speaker 3: They're not.

1504
01:28:30,359 --> 01:28:34,159
Speaker 1: So every everything that exists is syncretous to some fashion,

1505
01:28:34,600 --> 01:28:37,720
and then it finds unity in the multiplicity. But if

1506
01:28:37,760 --> 01:28:40,880
you when you fragment, what I mean is that when

1507
01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:44,439
you formulated as syncretism, like when you formulated as a

1508
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:48,399
kind of as a as as that kind of multiplicity,

1509
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:51,880
that that isn't joined. That has to be joined in

1510
01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:55,159
some kind of unitary practice. And I think that that's dangerous,

1511
01:28:55,479 --> 01:28:56,359
like Hodgepodge.

1512
01:28:57,159 --> 01:28:59,520
Speaker 8: I think that, I get what you're saying is very

1513
01:28:59,600 --> 01:29:02,680
non That would be temptation, right, temptation which is the

1514
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:05,199
inverse of community, that which brings a multiplicity into a

1515
01:29:05,279 --> 01:29:08,720
false unity that is actually just a con what's that

1516
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:11,000
called in material science?

1517
01:29:11,119 --> 01:29:13,960
Speaker 4: Like we think sand, sand is actually not actually a

1518
01:29:14,039 --> 01:29:18,880
whole thing. So something that's interesting just to think about

1519
01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:24,079
is the agree to which we each have particular callings

1520
01:29:25,439 --> 01:29:27,840
from friends and I think becoming better friends, which is

1521
01:29:27,880 --> 01:29:28,279
really fun.

1522
01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:30,239
Speaker 3: I love it.

1523
01:29:31,600 --> 01:29:34,880
Speaker 4: And those callings are distinct. Right, John is called to

1524
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:38,000
this this philosophical sad road, and that's a thing that's

1525
01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:40,680
a role it's a critical element of what's going on.

1526
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:46,159
And Jonathan is, you know, clearly just getting better and

1527
01:29:46,239 --> 01:29:50,800
better and looking really good on the Internet and embodying

1528
01:29:51,039 --> 01:29:54,199
beauty in a way that is just you know, impossible

1529
01:29:54,279 --> 01:29:57,800
to avoid new luck. Right, My calling is to retire

1530
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:00,239
peacefully and quietly in the mountains of North Carolin and

1531
01:30:01,239 --> 01:30:05,640
eat barbecue. So it's very liberating actually, I think to

1532
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:08,720
recognize that if we live the way that we're living,

1533
01:30:09,920 --> 01:30:13,520
following our calling and entering into relationships that are truly

1534
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:18,479
grounded in this requirement to love one another, then whatever

1535
01:30:18,560 --> 01:30:20,039
else is happening, we're doing the right thing.

1536
01:30:23,319 --> 01:30:27,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm happy with that, and I think it's fair

1537
01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:29,720
to say that was my intent from the beginning.

1538
01:30:32,279 --> 01:30:33,600
Speaker 3: It was to try and do that.

1539
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:38,439
Speaker 2: I'm sort of done the problematic I wanted to bring

1540
01:30:39,319 --> 01:30:42,640
and have you two respond, and again I think you

1541
01:30:43,159 --> 01:30:47,560
both responded very well. I genuine idea logos. I got

1542
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:49,720
to places I couldn't get to on my own, and

1543
01:30:50,319 --> 01:30:52,279
that mattered to me and make me think.

1544
01:30:54,079 --> 01:30:54,359
Speaker 3: Deeper.

1545
01:30:55,640 --> 01:30:57,840
Speaker 2: On a more personal note, I'm on a long journey

1546
01:30:57,920 --> 01:31:00,600
of a kind of reproach mall with Chris Janity, and

1547
01:31:01,199 --> 01:31:03,800
this has been not I'm not saying I'm going to

1548
01:31:03,840 --> 01:31:07,840
become a Christian or anything like that, but this coming

1549
01:31:07,920 --> 01:31:12,359
to a place where I think I can, as much

1550
01:31:12,359 --> 01:31:16,920
as possible, will be healed from just a traumatic apprehension

1551
01:31:17,199 --> 01:31:19,039
of Christianity. So I wanted to thank you of that.

1552
01:31:21,119 --> 01:31:24,600
Speaker 6: Oh happy we can we can play a role in that.

1553
01:31:24,760 --> 01:31:25,439
That's wonderful.

1554
01:31:26,119 --> 01:31:28,239
Speaker 1: And so I think I think this was the time

1555
01:31:28,359 --> 01:31:30,840
we were where we had allotted to our solid I

1556
01:31:30,840 --> 01:31:32,560
think we came to a good spot.

1557
01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:36,640
Speaker 6: As you know, these conversations they're always the beginning. It

1558
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:40,039
can go on forever. And so thank you both of both.

1559
01:31:39,920 --> 01:31:44,640
Speaker 1: Of you for your time and you're your forthright. Uh,

1560
01:31:45,079 --> 01:31:47,960
you know, stance. I really always appreciate it. It's it's

1561
01:31:48,039 --> 01:31:52,239
wonderful and uh. And yeah, remind everybody by the way

1562
01:31:52,399 --> 01:31:54,239
that I am going to be in Florida with Jordan

1563
01:31:54,399 --> 01:31:55,319
Hall also.

1564
01:31:56,079 --> 01:31:58,560
Speaker 6: Uh and so there might still be tickets to that event.

1565
01:31:58,640 --> 01:31:59,000
I don't know.

1566
01:31:59,159 --> 01:32:00,760
Speaker 1: We'll put a link to it if there are tickets

1567
01:32:00,800 --> 01:32:03,359
to it. But we're gonna spend a whole weekend together

1568
01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:07,479
with a few people, having feasting and drinking wine and

1569
01:32:07,640 --> 01:32:08,840
having wonderful discussions.

1570
01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:11,520
Speaker 6: It's going to be absolutely great and don't forget.

1571
01:32:11,399 --> 01:32:15,199
Speaker 1: That John will be doing a course on on the

1572
01:32:15,279 --> 01:32:17,760
Cogsaive Ritual and I'll be part of that as well.

1573
01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:22,079
So so so let's let's let's keep, let's keep finding

1574
01:32:22,199 --> 01:32:25,159
reasons to speak to each other and and work together.

1575
01:32:25,359 --> 01:32:29,720
Speaker 3: So here, here, here, here, all right, everyone.

1576
01:32:29,479 --> 01:32:30,399
Speaker 6: Thanks, thanks for your time.

1577
01:32:32,960 --> 01:32:33,359
Speaker 3: Take care,