Speaker 1: Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris, Lorenzo and Lorenzo.
Speaker 1: On this episode, we're continuing the discussion that we started
Speaker 1: two weeks ago on the four common leadership Problems and
Speaker 1: their Solutions article by Sam at Ayemi. We posted the
Speaker 1: article in the podcast description for the last two weeks.
Speaker 1: On this episode, we're gonna talk about the third of
Speaker 1: fourth of the four items in that article when it
Speaker 1: comes to, you know, the problems that leaders have a
Speaker 1: responsibility to solve when they're happening on their teams. This
Speaker 1: particular issue that we're going to talk about today is
Speaker 1: when your team is playing politics. And I think this
Speaker 1: is different than the previous to you know, the last
Speaker 1: week we talked about when your team is consumed by
Speaker 1: negativity on the on the first episode, we talked about
Speaker 1: what happens when your team isn't listening to each other,
Speaker 1: you know, the when your team is playing politics. To me,
Speaker 1: that's a little bit different. I had a leader once
Speaker 1: tell me that they believed that there was no such
Speaker 1: thing as an office or a team without politics, and
Speaker 1: and what he meant by that was just in talking
Speaker 1: about the relationships that exist between people and the the
Speaker 1: the power structure that is involved, not by where the
Speaker 1: organization promotes people and assigns people job responsibilities and roles,
Speaker 1: but that the but the power that we give each
Speaker 1: other in terms of the social and emotional relationships that
Speaker 1: we have within the office. And you know, there will
Speaker 1: always be people who are you know, known for this
Speaker 1: or known for that. You know, the guy, the guy
Speaker 1: that does this, the girl that does this in the office,
Speaker 1: and that that will always happen. And that person once,
Speaker 1: you know, said that that was the definition of politics,
Speaker 1: and I don't think he's wrong. But in the context
Speaker 1: of this article, politics is clearly being defined as a
Speaker 1: as an always negative thing that that you know, kind
Speaker 1: of comes with a deep seated feeling that things are
Speaker 1: being done unfairly, or that that that there's different rules
Speaker 1: for different people, or that people aren't being treated equal
Speaker 1: by their by their leaders, by their coworkers. So there's
Speaker 1: a lot more to it than just kind of like ooh,
Speaker 1: how do I navigate these relationships? It can be a
Speaker 1: serious problem on teams when when it's uh, when it
Speaker 1: rises to the negative level.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know, there's absolutely my belief as
Speaker 2: well that like the politics, politics exist everywhere, because really
Speaker 2: what you're talking about is like the relationships that you
Speaker 2: have with individuals, and then as those relationships mature across
Speaker 2: multiple individuals, you're going to have people that see the
Speaker 2: world and see the work similarly, and you're going to
Speaker 2: have people that see the world and see the work
Speaker 2: in different ways. And because of that, you're going to
Speaker 2: have these natural kind of spaces that people will play
Speaker 2: within where they start to think about like how they
Speaker 2: would do the work, how they would lead the work,
Speaker 2: what's the right way uh to make things happen, what's
Speaker 2: the right way or in their own mind to to
Speaker 2: be able to accomplish the task that's at hand. And
Speaker 2: the reality is that, like over time, if you don't
Speaker 2: address those things when you see them, if you don't
Speaker 2: talk constantly about the value of seeing the work differently,
Speaker 2: of seeing the world differently, if you allow those teams
Speaker 2: to either divide themselves because of maybe competition, or if
Speaker 2: you have teams that work in a way where this
Speaker 2: team has to accomplish this before this team can do that,
Speaker 2: before this can even can do that, then you also
Speaker 2: have that feeling of like, well, it's we always do
Speaker 2: it the right way, it's they do it the wrong way,
Speaker 2: or if you have teams where somebody's responsible for getting
Speaker 2: the work done, but somebody's responsible differently for the budget,
Speaker 2: and then they kind of collide a little bit. Like
Speaker 2: these things naturally are going to happen within your teams
Speaker 2: when you have multiple people working together. I think to
Speaker 2: your point, though, the kicker is that it becomes that
Speaker 2: negative politics when it starts to have an impact on
Speaker 2: either like the productivity of what everybody's working on and
Speaker 2: or there starts to be a really kind of negative
Speaker 2: feeling about the relationships amongst the you know, different groups
Speaker 2: within the team, and or it becomes like in the
Speaker 2: I guess the way to test it immediately is like
Speaker 2: somebody new comes in, right like like like what does
Speaker 2: that look like? Are are our teams talking positive about
Speaker 2: the other teams? Our teams you know, uh, kind of
Speaker 2: saying like hey, if if you're if you do this work,
Speaker 2: you got to come over here, or we're the ones
Speaker 2: who see it this way, or they're the ones who
Speaker 2: see it that, you know what I mean? Like that's
Speaker 2: really the best time to understand like where the politics
Speaker 2: are within your teams is like what happens with the
Speaker 2: new person and how do they perceive things and how
Speaker 2: are they welcomed or how are they you know, kind
Speaker 2: of almost asked immediately to figure out, you know, how
Speaker 2: they want to do the work and which type of
Speaker 2: group they should be with, and like that to me
Speaker 2: is where when the politics become very negative. These are
Speaker 2: some of the things that you see when that happens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, but on the same token, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I've seen that kind of thing happen where it is
Speaker 1: all in good fun and there is no negativity, you know,
Speaker 1: this whole like kind of pick a side thing almost
Speaker 1: like almost like a you know, a fan of a
Speaker 1: sports team versus another sports team, like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: if you're if you're you might get you know, see,
Speaker 1: you get invited over to a super Bowl party and
Speaker 1: you don't inherently like one team or the other. You're
Speaker 1: into it for a good game. And you get there
Speaker 1: and half the people there are wearing one jersey and
Speaker 1: half people that are wearing another jersey. They're all looking
Speaker 1: at you like, all right, all right, Lorenzo, what what
Speaker 1: side are you on? You know you're not You're not
Speaker 1: about to be kicked out of the party, you know,
Speaker 1: it's all in good fun. Like there's there's there are
Speaker 1: examples of what you're talking about where it can be
Speaker 1: kind of like a almost like a way of welcoming
Speaker 1: somebody to a team is a way to judge you
Speaker 1: put them in a situation where you are asking them
Speaker 1: to take a side and you're trying to see whether
Speaker 1: or not they want to be one of you. You know,
Speaker 1: you're it's a test. It's a test to see does
Speaker 1: this person want to assimilate into our group culture or
Speaker 1: whatever that is. And that isn't inherently a problem as
Speaker 1: long as the group culture is one of welcoming and
Speaker 1: acceptance and and you know, one where the the the
Speaker 1: in versus out is not based on anything that is
Speaker 1: that a person can't control, but based on like, oh,
Speaker 1: what music do you like? Or what kind of this
Speaker 1: do you like? Those kind of things can be a
Speaker 1: way to form camaraderie and bonds between people. But again,
Speaker 1: it's a very fine line, and it can and it
Speaker 1: can go off the deep end into a negative area
Speaker 1: if it's if it's not done right or if it's
Speaker 1: left unchecked. You know, when I think about playing politics
Speaker 1: going into the negative, there are kind of two examples
Speaker 1: I can think of where where where kind of like
Speaker 1: the same the same things happening. One would result in
Speaker 1: not a problem, whereas whereas another situation it would result
Speaker 1: in a problem. One is if the person who is
Speaker 1: supposedly playing politics is in is in a position of power.
Speaker 1: So it's one thing to have politics between people on
Speaker 1: a team who are peers. It's another thing when it's
Speaker 1: when the perception is that the leader is playing politics.
Speaker 1: Because if I'm not the leader and I think my
Speaker 1: leader is playing politics, well, now that person is playing
Speaker 1: a game that I can't compete in because they have
Speaker 1: they have power over my role, maybe my my annual review.
Speaker 1: If I'm if I'm feeling like I have to do
Speaker 1: things differently because of almost trying to manage the the
Speaker 1: emotional or political expectations of the leader as opposed to
Speaker 1: just managing my job description and what's what's expected of
Speaker 1: me by the organization. That is a problem when when
Speaker 1: what's happening by the leader. And then the second is,
Speaker 1: you know, we all know the difference between the person
Speaker 1: in high school who had a lot of power because
Speaker 1: they were the bully and the person who had a
Speaker 1: lot of power in high school because the people there
Speaker 1: gave them that power, like they were the They might have
Speaker 1: been like a jock or like the head cheerleader, but
Speaker 1: they were so nice. They just were they They wanted
Speaker 1: to be nice to everybody, They wanted to be friends
Speaker 1: with everybody, and they just had to kind of have
Speaker 1: that gravitational pull that some people have, and that power
Speaker 1: is given to them by people, which means it can
Speaker 1: be taken by people. And those situations are ones that
Speaker 1: can be difficult because I think in a lot of organizations,
Speaker 1: if you have somebody like that on a team who
Speaker 1: just kind of has this natural gravitational pull because of
Speaker 1: how kind they are and how accepting they are and
Speaker 1: how well they treat other people, there can be an
Speaker 1: inherent kind of negative belief from others that that person
Speaker 1: almost has something that they don't have, Like what like
Speaker 1: I want to be the person who has that, but
Speaker 1: I don't know how to do that. I can't do that,
Speaker 1: I can't compete. And if I can't compete, now that
Speaker 1: therefore that person is, you know, it's a negative element
Speaker 1: on the team that that person is here with that
Speaker 1: power that we've all granted them because I haven't granted
Speaker 1: them that power. I haven't decided to do that. It's
Speaker 1: the other people on the team we have. And now
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm having to place subordinate to this
Speaker 1: person who doesn't have a title, but who now has
Speaker 1: this this kind of political power granted them by the team.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think what you just said there there
Speaker 2: is like that that's the difference between like power and politics,
Speaker 2: is right. It's not that they have the power, it's
Speaker 2: what do they do with it? And are they either
Speaker 2: opening the door for others? Are they using that to
Speaker 2: bring people along? Are they using that to create spaces
Speaker 2: for people to feel heard and seen and welcome. So again,
Speaker 2: like I think in and then to your earlier example
Speaker 2: about like kind of picking a side from a positive standpoint,
Speaker 2: like from a jersey. For me, that's still something that
Speaker 2: I would be conscious of because there should also be
Speaker 2: an option of like you don't even have to wear
Speaker 2: a jersey.
Speaker 1: Mm, Like like if you're truly.
Speaker 2: Talking about like inclusive, non political picking a side type
Speaker 2: of thing, it's like you're you should just be welcome
Speaker 2: to go to the party, right and then and then
Speaker 2: the choice is yours the minute that a team says
Speaker 2: you should make a choice or you need to make
Speaker 2: a choice. Again, Like that's when you're starting to see
Speaker 2: some of that behavior that again can can be done
Speaker 2: in a positive way, but more than likely the whole
Speaker 2: idea is like, but on behalf of everybody here, what
Speaker 2: you choose to do, how you choose to represent, which
Speaker 2: jersey you want to wear or not wear, whatever, Like
Speaker 2: that's totally fine, we welcome all. So like that that's
Speaker 2: where I think seeing those things is helpful when you're
Speaker 2: thinking about the game of the politics and then to
Speaker 2: your point about the kind of the authority or the
Speaker 2: power structure element. When I hear like leaders playing politics,
Speaker 2: I immediately think of two things. At number one is
Speaker 2: that they're not being truthful and an authentic about what's
Speaker 2: going on or what the strategies are or why we
Speaker 2: have to do things, because I immediately like they're being
Speaker 2: a politician. Yeah, like like they're they're just telling you
Speaker 2: what they want to.
Speaker 1: Hear spin right exactly, using the information to try to
Speaker 1: get what they want in a way of like doling
Speaker 1: it out in the right.
Speaker 2: Way totally, and it's it's in authentic and people can
Speaker 2: see through it. So I think if we are doing politics.
Speaker 2: That's what number one that I see. Number two then
Speaker 2: is favoritism. That's the other part of leadership politics, which
Speaker 2: is it's clear that this leader likes either this team
Speaker 2: or this individual or this way of working, and they
Speaker 2: lean strategies towards that style or that way, and then
Speaker 2: it's kind of like you know, so again like that's
Speaker 2: kind of what I see from a leadership politics standpoint
Speaker 2: when it comes to the teams back and forth. I
Speaker 2: think that's where as a leader, when you see that
Speaker 2: there is some elements where you do want teams to
Speaker 2: have a certain kind of like I don't know, maybe
Speaker 2: excitement or pride for the work that that team is doing.
Speaker 2: You do want some of that to happen. What you
Speaker 2: have to be really conscious of is celebrating even more
Speaker 2: so when you see those teams work together, bring each
Speaker 2: other in, make an adjustment based upon the perspective of
Speaker 2: somebody else, Like when you see the things that create
Speaker 2: real great collaboration and a greater sense of team, you
Speaker 2: really have to celebrate those things to bring down I
Speaker 2: think the levels of politics that again are always going
Speaker 2: to exist, but put put them in a space where
Speaker 2: they're not leading the larger team into a negative space,
Speaker 2: or they're not creating a lack of productivity, they're not
Speaker 2: creating a space where people don't feel welcome or included
Speaker 2: in the work that your larger team is doing.
Speaker 1: Right for sure, you know, back to the first thing
Speaker 1: you were saying around you know, like the Jersey example,
Speaker 1: You're right, it's only it's only choice if the choices
Speaker 1: aren't defined for you. It's the illusion of choice. If
Speaker 1: someone's saying to you, Oh, Lorenzo, the choice is totally
Speaker 1: yours between A and B. The choice could be it's
Speaker 1: only really your choice if the choice is between A, B,
Speaker 1: C and fourteen. Right, you get to define the choices
Speaker 1: if the choice is truly yours, which is again, you know,
Speaker 1: not participating at all if you don't want to, if
Speaker 1: it's not something you feel that you feel like you
Speaker 1: need to need to pick a side on it that
Speaker 1: you feel truly, you know, passionate about when it comes to,
Speaker 1: you know, the leadership kind of responsibility in this. I
Speaker 1: think this is where the rubber meets the road on
Speaker 1: this top, on this conversation, because on the one hand,
Speaker 1: you know, we agree that there's a certain element of
Speaker 1: this that can be positive on a team in terms
Speaker 1: of the camaraderie that exists, if it's an inclusive environment,
Speaker 1: if people are if it's kind of wielded the right way,
Speaker 1: but it can very quickly derail into the negative even
Speaker 1: though the intent wasn't to do so. Like the intent
Speaker 1: could be totally positive, but it goes into the negative
Speaker 1: if it's kind of left unchecked. And I think you're right.
Speaker 1: The only way for a leader to effectively do this
Speaker 1: without stamping out the good things right Like it's it's
Speaker 1: like when you my five year is, you know, going
Speaker 1: to change the world someday, but right now she's driving
Speaker 1: me crazy, right And I could make it so she
Speaker 1: doesn't drive me crazy, but then she won't change the
Speaker 1: world someday. We all know that kind of that kind
Speaker 1: of conundrum as a parent that we that we deal with.
Speaker 1: I think it's the same thing I think when a
Speaker 1: when a leader is looking at the positive elements of
Speaker 1: this on a team that bring a team together, you
Speaker 1: can make it so it never turns negative from a
Speaker 1: political standpoint by just stamping out that behavior altogether, But
Speaker 1: then you've lost some of the positive that can come
Speaker 1: from when a team is truly cohesive. And high performing
Speaker 1: and working together. And so as a leader, how do
Speaker 1: you do this? How do you allow this to happen?
Speaker 1: How do you allow it to kind of people to
Speaker 1: have the leeway to see what can be done when
Speaker 1: a team truly cares about each other, when a team
Speaker 1: is inclusive, when they when they bring each other along
Speaker 1: without you know, while also having kind of like the
Speaker 1: spidy sense feelers up for looking for certain elements that
Speaker 1: might be go, Okay, that didn't feel right. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to jump in yet, but I need to keep
Speaker 1: my eye on this because if I see it happen again,
Speaker 1: then that means it wasn't the fluke, and I need
Speaker 1: to address it right away. You know, Like there're these
Speaker 1: those elements that have to happen, and I think that's
Speaker 1: important to discuss, like what what do leaders look for
Speaker 1: and what rises to the level of all right, we
Speaker 1: can't do this absolutely.
Speaker 2: And with that it brings us this episodes Women at Hack.
Speaker 2: But first a few words from our sponsors.
Speaker 1: All right, for this episode of one minute Hackers, I
Speaker 1: want you to do if you're a leader of people
Speaker 1: or a leader of leaders and you're trying to kind
Speaker 1: of keep your eyes open and your ears open for
Speaker 1: things that rise to the level of you feeling like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you know what this this camaraderie, this this kind of
Speaker 1: team element, this this positivity that I'm seeing on the team,
Speaker 1: it possibly is rising to the level of politics in
Speaker 1: a in a negative way. What you should be looking
Speaker 1: for are things that that I kind of liken to
Speaker 1: the field goal kicker losing the game. You know kind
Speaker 1: of situation. You know, when we all know the situation
Speaker 1: of the field goal kicker that loses the game because
Speaker 1: they didn't make that last field goal in the closing
Speaker 1: seconds of the game, and everybody blames that kicker. But
Speaker 1: if we are being perfectly honest here, there were hundreds
Speaker 1: of other things that happened in that game that caused
Speaker 1: that team to lose, even though in that moment we
Speaker 1: think about it as, oh, it's it's all on the
Speaker 1: hands of this one person. When you see this on
Speaker 1: your team, what that looks like is, you know, the
Speaker 1: team is getting together and they start to shirk responsibility
Speaker 1: of what they can't get done because of somebody else
Speaker 1: that's on the outside. So, oh, we would have made
Speaker 1: our sales targets if the marketing materials were good, you know,
Speaker 1: we would have made our sales targets. If you know
Speaker 1: something else, you know, some other element of a person
Speaker 1: or a team that's the on the outside that can
Speaker 1: be scapegoaded or blamed for the issues that are that
Speaker 1: are happening on the team, as opposed to the team
Speaker 1: members actually taking ownership of it and thinking about the
Speaker 1: things they can do to solve the problem, even if
Speaker 1: it means getting involved. It's like, Okay, maybe the marketing
Speaker 1: materials aren't good, but there's a difference between we would
Speaker 1: have made our targets but the marketing materials suck, or
Speaker 1: we would have made our target. It's next month, We'll
Speaker 1: do a better job of partnering with the marketing team
Speaker 1: to make sure they understand our needs so that when so,
Speaker 1: the materials that come out are are better suited to
Speaker 1: what our customers are looking for. As opposed to it,
Speaker 1: it's it's the ownership, it's I are we is the
Speaker 1: power that we have. Are we using it to take
Speaker 1: ownership of our problems? Or are we using it to
Speaker 1: shirk the problems onto somebody else so that we don't
Speaker 1: have to so that we can avoid responsibility for the
Speaker 1: things that we need to take care of. And it's
Speaker 1: those kind of elements you have to look for as
Speaker 1: a leader when you're deciding whether or not what's happening
Speaker 1: or the discussion is rising to the level that you
Speaker 1: need to kind of jump in and stamp something down,
Speaker 1: or if it's a kind of a healthy element on
Speaker 1: the team.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, it's going to happen, and it's going
Speaker 2: to happen quite frequently and very often. And you know,
Speaker 2: having people feel certain ways about each other, or teams
Speaker 2: versus teams, or like, like it's human nature. There's elements
Speaker 2: to it people, you know, especially on teams where people
Speaker 2: want to be successful. You know, they're they're they're measuring
Speaker 2: their own work. They're measuring it. Sometimes it's a of
Speaker 2: the larger work. But like you're going to have these moments,
Speaker 2: and I think to your point, as a leader, it's
Speaker 2: just being conscious and listening for it and seeing it
Speaker 2: and like when is it becoming too much? When when
Speaker 2: if we moved on from saying like, hey, we own this,
Speaker 2: we can work on this, here's our strategies, here's where
Speaker 2: we have maybe some hurdles or some bumps in the road,
Speaker 2: versus we can't do this because of this person. We
Speaker 2: can't get this done because of this team, if you know,
Speaker 2: like like it's when when all of the solutions turn
Speaker 2: into other people or other teams, that's when you kind
Speaker 2: of have to get your your you know, you have
Speaker 2: to move to action as a leader and go have
Speaker 2: some influence and have some conversations and dig through it.
Speaker 2: But this is like a lot of this can also
Speaker 2: be you know, somewhat minimized by again having the right
Speaker 2: people's in the rooms, having conversations where you're creating spacefook collaboration,
Speaker 2: talking through things when they come up, you know, between
Speaker 2: individuals sometimes or when you see that there's a kind
Speaker 2: of an initial rub that's going on. If you just
Speaker 2: give it to the team and say, you guys, figure
Speaker 2: it out and get back to me when it's done, Like,
Speaker 2: that's not helpful, right, right, Like these are things that
Speaker 2: as a leader you have to catch on to and
Speaker 2: make adjustments to and address in the moment to let
Speaker 2: the team know collectively, like we're not going to do
Speaker 2: this to each other, and we're not going to you know,
Speaker 2: we all have different layers and different elements of responsibility
Speaker 2: to get the work done, but we have to work
Speaker 2: together to make sure that it's done the right way
Speaker 2: and the best way possible.
Speaker 1: Right. If I go back to the example about the
Speaker 1: sales targets not being hit because of the marketing team,
Speaker 1: think about, in the context of what you were saying
Speaker 1: Lorenzo on having the right people in the room, what
Speaker 1: if on every sales meeting there were two or three
Speaker 1: people from the marketing team in the meeting. There would
Speaker 1: I would venture guests to say that under those circumstances,
Speaker 1: the people on the sales team it didn't make sales
Speaker 1: targets are far less likely to say we would have
Speaker 1: hit these sales targets if it weren't for the marketing team.
Speaker 1: It's a lot easy to escapecoade it when they are
Speaker 1: they them not part of our team. You know, they're
Speaker 1: they're they're the outsider. They're they're kind of nameless and faceless.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a it's a it's a an entity
Speaker 1: more so than a person. Get those people in the
Speaker 1: room with you, and they become people with names and
Speaker 1: faces and families and goals and and and shared interests.
Speaker 1: You're far less likely to find people scapegoating those people
Speaker 1: later when they're not in the room. I mean there's
Speaker 1: I guess there's some examples, but very few. It's the
Speaker 1: when you join people together like that and you create
Speaker 1: that kind of that welcoming environment where everybody who is
Speaker 1: who has a stake in the game for the outcome
Speaker 1: is kind of in the room. When it's happening. It's
Speaker 1: far less likely that you will see one of those,
Speaker 1: you know, parts of it being scapegoaded as the problem
Speaker 1: or the reason why the problem can't get solved later
Speaker 1: on down the road. So so yes, get the right
Speaker 1: people in the room, get the people in the room
Speaker 1: that that matter for making those decisions, and you can
Speaker 1: kind of stop this from happening even before it begins.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and with that it exist at the end of
Speaker 2: this episode, this is hacking your leadership. I'm Lorenzo and
Speaker 2: I'm Chris, and we'll talk to you all next time.