Speaker 1: What is up, fellow Siko's I am Dana Valley coming
at you with yet another twenty twenty four twenty twenty
five NBA season look ahead. We are onto the Orlando
Magic and I'm lucky enough to be joined by a
first time guest, Vazan Amir. We have talked for a
couple of years now. He's been on the Magic beat.
He covers the Orlando Magic for The sixth Man Show.
You can find his Twitter handle and link to his
Twitter assuming it is up and running, which we hope
that it will be in the podcast and YouTube description,
and he will shout it out at the end of
the episode, like we always force our.
Speaker 2: Guests to do.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get into all things Orlando Magic. This is
really excited I Like I said, I've known him for
a while. He's really really good at what he does.
Does some film breakdowns, highlights, analyzes a whole bunch of stuff.
So go check him out if you haven't already. His
stuff's at the sixth Man Show and they're wildly popular
Orlando podcast slash outlet. I've listened to many of their
podcast episodes. With that though, I'll start rambling. Let's bring
on fiaz On so we could talk about the twenty
twenty four twenty twenty five Orlando Brazon. Thank you so
much for coming on for the first time. How the
heck are you doing.
Speaker 3: I'm doing well.
Speaker 4: How about yourself?
Speaker 2: I am doing well.
Speaker 1: I'm ready to pick your brain about a team who's offseason.
Speaker 2: I kind of like flip flopped on pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: I was like, I was ready for the fireworks after
KCP was poached on basically the first night we were
hosting Bleacher Reports Free Agency Live show, and so Grant
and I were we were ready for like the Orlando
Magic to do capslock stuff, and then that ended up
being the extent of their stuff. So I'm excited to
get into this team with you. Did you want to
give since this is your first time, any little background
just about yourself, how you got into covering the Magic?
Speaker 2: How long you've been doing it now? I know it's
been a couple of seasons.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I started December twenty twenty two, just before
the team went on their six game win streak, and yeah,
before that, I was covering the Hornets for Swarm and Sting,
and then I was covering a different affiliation Before that
which I don't really want to get into right now.
But fortunately I've known Dan throughout the entire process before
I joined the Six Man Show, and we've stayed pretty
connected afterwards as well. So I appreciate you bringing me.
Speaker 2: On, oh, but happy to get the chance to talk
to you about this team.
Speaker 1: Like I said, you've been killing it with them, so
you're I always appreciate your threads on Twitter, so made
that account. As we record this, it's suspended, which it
happens to It happens to everybody, So screw FIBA is
basically the moral of this story.
Speaker 2: So I wanted to start with you here.
Speaker 1: I think we have to look at what are you're
just you know, looking at the off season in some
what are your thoughts on it and kind of what
it says about their their overall direction for this team.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I'll start by out aligning my thoughts on KCP.
I mean, as a former two time champion of me,
he not only championship pedigree, but I mean, I think
one other thing we have to mention is he fits
Orlando's mold to a team. I mean, he's a prototypical
three and D guard who fits seamlessly within Jamal Mosley's scheme,
but he's also not a ball dominant player, so during
his stops in LA and Denver, he's been surrounded by
other star studded players in Lebron, James, Nikola, Jokic, and
I've always appreciated his ability to compliment those guys by
spacing the four and also like generating efficient looks off
a ball screen or dribble handoff. And I know, like
we all like to make fun of Orlando's offensive structure
just because of how broken and deteriorated it is, but
they do have a few commonalities within Denver's scheme that
I think KCP, once he's inserted into, is going to
make this offense less dry. I mean he's I believe
he connected on forty point two percent of his off
movement dribble and dolphs last season, which off the Dome
I believe is good for the eighteenth best mark among
the seventy seven players who took seventy five of them.
And his ability as a movement shooter pairs really nicely
with one of Orlando's favorite tactics, a dribble handoff play
they like to run called Chicago Action.
Speaker 3: Typically, they usually.
Speaker 5: Run it with Wendell at the five, but due to
his injury concerns this past season, they ran it.
Speaker 3: Most frequently with Mo and Goga.
Speaker 5: So they'll have sugs in the corner and he'll receive
a pin down screen for Palo on the wing, and
then he'll receive a DHO from either whoever's at the
center spot at that point, whether that's Goga, Mo or
wen Dell, and then he'll come around the top of
the key and shoot that three. But unfortunately for the Magic,
their lack of movement shooting in minimal space, they're only
able to generate one may.
Speaker 4: Three from that play of theirs.
Speaker 5: So you enter KCP into that play, and I believe
that you suddenly opened up a new, sheer variety of
options in that Magic playbook in itself, and then you
can get funky and creative from there. And I think,
just I know, I only said one example, but that
in itself should make this bottom chiered offense harder to
decipher a come playoff time.
Speaker 2: Were you?
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean there's I don't think there's an
argument against CACPS fit on this team. I mean, even
it's it's like an embarrassment of riches thing defensively to
where he was fringe. He made one of my all
defense teams last year, he did not make all defense overall.
He was fringe all defense. And now you add that
to a defense that was already second in point slot
per possession, and when you look at the sheer breadth
of assignments that he was covering in Denver. Now he
gets to play next to Jailen Suggs. It makes his
job easier, or it'll make Jalen Suggs's job even easier
to where if he wants to know, go after even
more turnovers away from the ball because cacp's on the court,
so there's a lot of dynamic things they could do there.
Were you surprised at although, especially given just by the
way the other thing we have to shut out with
KCP is that its next level gamesmanship. To me, I'm
assuming this was part of the equation that you own
Denver's draft pick and then you poach one of their
most important players.
Speaker 2: That's just smart business right there, objectively.
Speaker 1: But were you surprised at all that this team didn't
also go the route of I'm not saying when after
someone super splashy, but like Okay, we didn't add any
type of real offensive organizer this season.
Speaker 2: Does that one work? Like I said, were you surprised?
Speaker 1: But too, does it say anything about their I guess
plans or level of confidence in not just you know,
Anthony Black or Cole Anthony, but Jalen Suggs and Pawel
Banco and Franz Wagner.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I think most of all, it asserts their level of
confidence in Anthony Black. And I was going to get
into this later, but I think one of the biggest
storylines I guess I'm following this season is Anthony Black's
assertion as a lead facilitator in that eventual and Jim
Suggs in a star role. I'll start with ad I
think with the loss of Joe Engles, who assumed that
last season as the offensive hub between him and Mo
Volgner's two man game, I want to see if ab
can inherit that responsibility off the bench in a lead
creator role, and the idea of having a surefire point
guard around to set the table has become the default
I think around the league. But I think one of
the most common misconceptions is making plays isn't the same thing.
Speaker 4: As running a team.
Speaker 5: I know that's been an emphasis for AB, and through
a pair of Summer league games this past season, I
thought he did a much better job of manipulating the defense.
He's reading the helpside defenders a lot better than he
was a season ago, and he's finding players a step
late or step two slow before.
Speaker 4: He's making those high level reads.
Speaker 5: So I think all that combined with the fact that
both he and Jan Suggs saw pretty much near non
existent usage from within their offensive playbook. Specifically AB, I
mean Jim almost he did less than the bare minimum
and helping create offensive pathways for him even his big
Dallas out offensive outburst. Most of ab scoring in that
game came from having defend for himself versus having his
number called within set plays. So I think adapting to
the speed of the pro game is already a major
struggle at first, and then you add seeing limited playing time,
being thrust into the starting role and then being primarily
utilized to defend the opponent, the opposing team's best guard,
and then just not be awarded within set plays within
the flow of an already like we mentioned, pretty bare
and offensive playbook. It's rough, and I know on paper
he played sixty nine games in his rookie season, but
he only saw double digit in fifty fifty of those games.
I believe in what a point guard needs most is time, patience,
the water and sunlight of chances to fail, and then
the structure and the opportunity to grow, because if you
go back in time, Gion Suggs didn't have the greatest
rookie season of all time, and now you can see
that Orlando's presenting confidence and Sugs to take over that
league guard role. And then I want to see if
ab can be able to do that off the bench
as well.
Speaker 1: Do you think that they're going to have the time
and space for Anthony Black to do that?
Speaker 4: Though?
Speaker 1: When you look at a team that and it's a
very interesting storyline to focus on just because they have
immediate aspirations, like they have time, just because Powell's not
on his next contract yet even frond size his extension,
but that doesn't kick in. This team is young, but
like you made it to the playoffs, and progress of
course isn't linear, but like the idea is, it's not
win more games or make it further in the playoffs
the last season, but it's have a better product at
the end of everything, and there's a tug of war
there where it's giving Anthony blackmore runway to run things
on the offensive end that will go a long way,
and maybe they have enough spacing around him now where
they might even feel more comfortable with him doing it
when you also are a team that's like you're supposed
to be in the playoff conversation in the East, and
I think some people even probably have them penciled in
like the top five or top four just based off
their defensive ceiling alone. How hard is it to juggle
this idea that, oh, we want this sophomore to continue
to develop like at one of the most important, like
functional positions in the league. But hey, we also don't
necessarily have the stomach for the growing pains to just like, oh,
if he's out there and has a really bad game,
can can we you know, are we built to overcome
that and let that ride?
Speaker 5: I don't think it necessarily is It doesn't necessarily have
to be Anthony Black at the one and then give
him the ball and everyone just get out of the
way and let him creates a lot.
Speaker 3: He's a six seven six ' eight guard.
Speaker 5: He's a big guard, and there's a lot of things
that he can do on the floor that doesn't necessarily
equate to him having.
Speaker 4: The ball in his hands.
Speaker 5: I mean, in that Cleveland matchup in the playoffs, Orlando
ran inverted screens for Paalabankia nine times. It didn't score
a single point in Game one through their inverted screen set.
I mean you put Anthony Black, and Anthony Black did
a really good job of pairing with Palo bank Caro
and weaponizing his ability as a screener in those inverted
screen sets.
Speaker 3: In specific, that.
Speaker 4: Game against New York.
Speaker 5: At home in Orlando and no guard on the Magic
came close to sniffing more than one hundred screen assists.
So if you want to put Anthony Black as a
primary screener for Palo using his size, I think that
in itself frees up a lot for Polo And one
of the most common ways that he was able to
do that this season, which we didn't really see a
lot of because of his staggering minutes whether he was
playing or not playing, was the Magic were very successful
when ab was screening for Palo via wed screens or
pin in screens. So he's going to I believe he's
going to be a critical He's going to be critical
for their potential playoff success if they want to advance
and compete in the second round this season, whether that
be the ball in his hands or other variations of
him being involved in the offense and not just being
thrust in the corner like he was last season saying hey,
if you get the ball, just shoot it.
Speaker 1: Do you trust though, because that will be part of
his role in certain sets. Do you trust like the
jumper to come along enough to where he's not I
think people sometimes confuse shooting and floor spacing to where
like floor spacing is you could be like, not so
great shooter, but defenses respect you. And I think when
you go back and look at it, Anty blackshot well
from three last year, but it was on a negligible
number of attempts, and you look at the way a
lot of those were defended or the situations they came in,
I wouldn't call it necessarily like capslock floor spacing.
Speaker 2: How do you feel about sort of development of his.
Speaker 1: Because that's going to be whether he's on the ball
off the ball, like the jumper is going to be
something that needs to be a trustworthy weapon in his arsenal.
Speaker 5: I yeah, I expect the three point attempts not only
for Anthony Black, but for everyone else to increase. But
I know that the I know that, so I know
the Magic. I believe there there were twenty seven to
three point attempts. But when we'll talk about three point
at times, I don't want you to just chuck up
shots for the sole purpose of increasing those attempts.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 5: One of my biggest coaching s is coaches refusals to
draw plays for certain players. I know we haven't touched
on Gary Harris today yet, but throughout the playoffs as
a veteran, he shot seven for twenty two, seven for
twenty two. As a starter whose sole purpose for being
on the Magic was to provide three and D.
Speaker 3: He provided the D and No.
Speaker 5: Three and not one of those plays was a drawn
up play for him.
Speaker 4: In those twenty two attempts.
Speaker 5: I mean, he's not coming off of veer screen. He's
not coming off a twist, a punch, strong curl, Oklahoma
Finland double drag. All his attempts, every single one of them,
were a result of kickouts. And so going back to
your point, not only for Anthony Black, for the entire team.
I want the attempts to increase, but I want more
of an emphasis to be drawn on drawing up plays
to create advantages and space for shooters, not just that
them in the corner and then having them receive the
ball off kickouts. It's just not It just hasn't worked,
and I don't believe it's gonna work the more you
do it.
Speaker 1: Do you think that could maybe be a function of
their lack of trust in the actual like offensive accessories
on this team to where it's the way to generate
good spacing around And I'm just gonna use this guy
as an example because he's the most mort player on
the team, but like when you go back and look
at just like Palo Bang Hero drives and how much
spit were like when he's in like how much space
this dude does not have to operate? You do organically
kind of stretch defenses by having guys in the corners,
and if you don't trust players to either run or
execute the more complicated stuff, and look, they're dealing with
a young team. You know, we're talking about Anthony Black,
Bilon Suggs just finished up year three. So if you're
not necessarily trusting those guys in those actions that you're
outlining it, Like, do you think that that had to
do with a level of concern and we're not even concerned,
but like we're still trying to feel out like what
these young guys are going to be able to do?
Or do you really think that it was just kind
of like this functional cop out a little bit that
there should have been more complicated stuff being run.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's more of a functional cop out
than the alternative. And some of it, like from a
half court perspective that the team just wasn't like you said,
they just weren't running many complex plays to alter the
defensive structure. Opposing teams are basing because everyone coming into
the night new we're gonna switch to Blitz, Pilo and
Franz and everyone else on the corners. If they're gonna
beat us, they're gonna beat us. We're gonna live with that.
But I think in a bird's eye view, I mean
the loss of their primary offensive play color Nativots came
just a few weeks before the season that started, and
he accepted a head coaching gig for the Phoenix Mercury
with not a lot of time to replace to replace him,
and Jesse Murmis took over the play calling duties and
it didn't necessarily bore with leading and it led to
a lot of clunk. I mean, they don't have many
secondary ball hands either, so someone who can create their
shot off to dribble aside from Cole Palo Franz and
to a degree jail in so if and when their
primary action didn't work, you were just left with like
you mentioned at Palo Bank hero Iso, which was another
direct result of his poor efficiency. And then I think
ab Jet and the addition of KCP helps in that
regard as because I believe all three of those guys
are connective passers and having more guys on the floor
who can create advantages and provide relief options is just
good for an offense that has been non existent for
We're going on about two seasons now.
Speaker 1: So Franz Vagner gets the max with the language that
could take it to a thirty percent max up in
the twenty five percent max. I want to start there
with him. Are you want to use the work at all?
Surprised like they didn't even wait for it to get
to restrict the freegiency. It doesn't seem like there's any
hard negotiating going on just based off what we've seen
from him. Did you view him, if you like, as
a no brainer max guy, and especially one where it's
I know we frame it as well, teams welcome to
pay these guys. Let's say he does make all MBA
and the contract gets elevated to the thirty percent in
deory you as a team, you're happy to pay that
because the leap that he just had. But like part
of the negotiation process and why restrictive free agencies exists
is well, like, couldn't you have just gotten this deal
done at the bare minimum without that language in there,
so that if he did have that type of leap,
you're like, oh, we still have this guy out a
twenty five percent max, So I'll throw I'll start it
with this to throw my take out there, I would
have made him wait just because functionally, I know they're
not going to be a cap space team moving forward,
but you still would have had more flexibility. And I
just don't know that he has shown enough for me
to say this guy was a no brainer opening of
the offseason.
Speaker 2: Like, let's give him. I think he's a fantastic player.
Speaker 1: If you go back and look at some of the
stuff I said about him defensively coming out of the draft,
look like a fucking idiot. So I recognize that Franz
Vaughner is a fantastic basketball player. I just found it.
I think the word is probably interesting fascinating that this
was done so quickly without it seems like any sort
of just what we need, like they have decided that
he is our just number two guy.
Speaker 2: That's how I view it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that's how I viewed it as well.
And I think the reason why I don't have any
inside information when I say this, I think one of
the reasons why it came so quickly is just to
showcase Paula bank Caro and this new generation of Magic
team that hey, we're not going to operate how we
did in the past with the other guys, and the
Magic have the best young forward combination of the league
and Fontin Polo. So the writing for me was on
the wall that this contract was coming. He's one of
their cornerstone players. The contract reflects it, and the team
is being constructed around both forwards, playmaking and versatility. He's
also one of four other players in Magic history to
eclipse four thousand points before their twenty third birthday. He
joins the lead company and Tracy McGrady, Penny Hardaway, and
Shaquille O'Neal. If his three point shooting bounces back, in
addition to what he already provides as a driver and
a playmaker who is extremely young in his showcase, the
ability to complement your all star, I think it's a
no brainer.
Speaker 1: What do you make of the actual jump shot, the
stuff by and large, the counters that he has inside
the arc. He's like at this combination of force in finesse,
he's terrific to watch. His year over year three point
percentage has declined. He has peaked on his jump shot percentage.
I think it like an effective field goal rate of
fifty point six or something that was in his sophomore season,
not last year. What do you make of that? Do
you notice anything mechanically?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 1: Oh, this dude has played a lot of basketball over
the past couple of years. When you look at all
the FEBA games. Is it also a function of Because
we'll bring this up with and I want to use
an excuse, but it's a reasoning I use for palace efficiency.
Is look at the space in which he's working, and
look at the defensive attention he's commanding. If you had
to just boil it down though to one factor, like
what is the driving force for that? And is this
something that it has to be something worth monitoring? But
is it all concerning when you kind of look at
how the year over year efficiency is gone before?
Speaker 5: I answer was whenever we're talking about shooting mechanics, I
always like to ask, like people who don't watch the
team as closely as I do, because I feel like
once you watch a team so closely, you just become
you just kind of that form just becomes second nature
to watching. So when you watch Funds, do you feel
like his mechanics are off by any sense?
Speaker 1: I won't pretend to be a jump shot expert. I
will say a cadence at which he takes it. It
does And I don't know if this is a mental thing,
but sometimes it feels like it slows down, and I
don't know if it has to do with the action
that the jumper is coming out of or the circumstances
under which he's taking it. That's the only kind of
thing I've noticed. Then it does feel like there might
be stretches where the shots are like, I don't even
know how to describe them. I don't want to say
so off, but it's almost is this Is this a
function of tired legs? And is that because he's played
so much basketball? Is it because what he's maybe doing
defensively or the stuff that he has to do when
he's actually on the ball. So I to honestly why
I'm asking you, because I find it's so curious that
a player I view is as talented as him when
you kind of look at the progres of and again,
he had like a pretty efficient season on his inside
the arc jumpers.
Speaker 2: I believe as a sophomore.
Speaker 1: I can't remember I'm misremembering which campaign it was, but
just a player at his level, you would expect to
see like kind of more year over year improvement from
And I just don't know whether it's him or whether
it's the environment in which the Magic have placed him
these past few years.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So he's always had an unconventional hip degree and shoulder
to knee to tow alignment. I actually went, I actually
spoke to a shooting coach from un T. I spoke
to multiple shooting coaches and I showed them Franz's clips,
and what I got was at his knee at his
release motion or roughly at ninety three degrees, and his
hip degree lines up at a one hundred and twenty
two degrees, And.
Speaker 3: What they told me was, typically.
Speaker 5: You're taught to ideally be a ninety ninety degree angle
to allow yourself the most balanced. So when he brings
the ball up to his stet point and releases through,
he's recently lost his arc from his rookie season and
the shot has like kind of translated to almost looking
like a laser to where it has almost little to
no arc, but it kind of like variations of it.
But it was so noticeable over the course of the
season that Franz worked alongside shooting coach Jeremiah Boswell to
improve his arc, and they actually came up with the
verbiage called tickle the stars, meaning when he would release,
he wanted France to release a to the point where
he was the shot would tickle the stars it would
be so high, and I understand the Orlando Magic spacing
might be a result of that.
Speaker 3: So I went back and I.
Speaker 5: Looked at his Olympics percentages, and since the conclusion of
the season in India Olympics. He converted only seven of
his thirty five to three point attempts in playing for
Germany in the four freebay games they played in the
men's twenty twenty four Olympics, which sits at twenty now.
As bad as that number is, he did average five
point eight attempts in the Olympics, which kind of alleviates
my concerns to agree, because it showcases the confidence he
has in his shot, unlike Markel folks who won't even
attempt to take a three point shot despite how open
he is. So I would say my concern level at
this point is a result more of he's.
Speaker 4: Just played so much basketball.
Speaker 5: Do you go back to last summer they played your
basket and they got gold, and then you go through
a gruling You go through a grueling season, and then
you play a playoff game, and then you have a
few weeks off before you're back in a training camp
for Germany, and then you're competing in.
Speaker 3: This grueling friendly games.
Speaker 5: You got multiple friendly games that start in July and
then all the way until almost just a tip of August,
you're competing and you're competing for the Olympic for your country.
Speaker 4: So I want, I.
Speaker 5: Want to say that that's what that is. But give
me another season before I'm really able to tell you
exactly what's going on. But yeah, twenty percent after whatever
he shot in the regular season, it's pretty barren and
his shot arc hasn't looked any better in the Olympics
as well.
Speaker 1: Jalen Suggs also extension aege, Well, do you think he
gets an extension? And is there like, if you're running
the organization, what is the walkaway number of the number
that you look at Jalen Suggs, you look at his
potential and that you would be comfortable giving him.
Speaker 5: I can't speak to a number i'd be willing to
give him, but I do believe why one expected.
Speaker 4: Him to get paid.
Speaker 5: I mean, throughout his tenure in Orlando, he routinely went
out of his way to state his love and affection
for the fan base in the city, as well as
his desire to remain in the.
Speaker 4: Blue and White.
Speaker 5: I can't speak to where those conversations, those contract conversations
are at the moment, but if Jeff Weltman's desire is
to see where a full season of Suggs running the
team from a point guard perspective and being the answer
to Palla Banker of the needs of having a facilitator
around him more, I don't have a problem with the
Magic waiting it out in that sense until the following
season to lock him in. So that's kind of where
I stand with the Suggs contract at this point. But
I do believe a deal will get done, whether that
be by the deadline in October or next season.
Speaker 2: Hopefully it doesn't happen before this episode comes out.
Speaker 1: I'll say so he's improved as a shooter, obviously. I
don't think his passing improvement. It's not like super complicated stuff,
but I definitely think that he's improved some of his
live dribble stuff, some his open floor stuff.
Speaker 2: What does the next Frontier look like for a jail
On Suggs.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I'll speak to the passing for a second.
I mean, when he took over the point guard role
for Markel fall to me as I watched him progress
in that role, he progressed as a passer. And now
it's not some insane passing ability, but he got much
better at using his eyes as he got much better
at weaponizing his eyes. Over the course of the season,
he showed no fear in attacking zones and blitzes. I
remember a play against the Chicago Bulls where Andre Drummond
and Kobe White switched to blitz pollow near the free
throw line extended, and I'm watching Jalen Suggs using his
vision before the ball even reaches him to scan the
defense off ball. And once Polo passed him the ball
out of that switch to blitz, instead of letting an
open three rip off the catch, which nine out of
ten players would have done in that situation, he threw
a dark mid air to the low post for an
immediate pay touch for Mae Wagner, which I found very
impressive in I believe him to be more of a
quarterback on the court than an actual half court point
guard who can get you in and out of sets.
Speaker 1: But I think that ask whether you thought you had
that in him, because I think that's the part of
his game. I look at and I'm like, if he
could do that, it's it's honestly, it's called.
Speaker 2: Course altering for both him and the franchise.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: No, I think he's more of a transition point guard
and quarterback on the court type of deal. But I
think the biggest kind of frontier for him is you
mentioned it earlier, but he no longer has to be
Orlando's primary defensive anchoring. You have KCP now allowing you
to defend twos now versus last year in the playoffs,
where you're having to defend Donovan Mitchell, who's coming off
double drags with both Jared Allen and Evan Mobley as
a screener is wearing you out as you navigate around
those screens for a rear view contest. And I went
back and I actually looked it as subsist stats by quarter,
because I do believe this is a real thing that
I want him to improve at. In the first quarter,
he was the second leading scorer for the Magic with
three hundred and twenty three points, and coming out of
halftime he was the top three score for the Magic
at three hundred and seven points. But in quarter number
two and quarter number four, where his motor kind of
kind of runs low because.
Speaker 4: Of all the.
Speaker 5: Defensive chaos he's causing, he only scored one hundred and
seventy six points all season. In the second quarter, which
puts him at fourth and in the fourth quarter he
total one thirty one points, which would put him below
Cole Anthony and Mo Wagner at fifth in the closing quarter.
So I believe in those quarters where you feel the
mileage you can take a bit of you can have
him take a bit of a back seat as a
defensive pest and provide help if you're a nonspacer, just
his ability to be in that kind of context, and
take some of the regular season milea jeosh off of
him because you have an all defensive caliber veteran guard
alongside you to take on those assignments and quarter number
two and four so you're able to provide more of
a lift offensively with the ball will be a smooth
transition for him and the remainder of the offense.
Speaker 1: Paula Bankero is I'm sure you're where of this is
somewhat divisive figure when we're talking from the national perspective,
where this podcast stance is mostly he is hashtag that dude.
But I think a lot of people kind of glomb
on to his efficiency through the first couple of years
of his career and they're like, oh, look at his
true shooting percentage, and he's never shot better than thirty
four percent from three. What is the rebuke? We've made
a rebuke to it? What is your your brute?
Speaker 2: Yeah, what is your response to it?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 2: Is it really is?
Speaker 1: You want to use the word simple, but like, look
at the types of shots he's taking. Look at the
defensive attention he's commanding. Look at the level of responsibility
he has shouldered on the offensive and not just as
a shot maker and score, but just like the primary
ball handler and facilitator and driver of the off because
of the players that have been in place around him.
And then I also don't know how you watch the playoffs.
Granted it was you know, he's only there for seven games,
but it's his first taste of playoff basketball, and he's
just an absolute monster, averaging twenty seven points, four assists,
shooting forty percent on three from three on real volume.
Speaker 2: I just I think I'm more.
Speaker 1: So asking like, is there any justification behind like the
concern about his You can look at the free throws
and say, okay, be nice for he made those at
a higher clip, But I don't know how you look
at the circumstances under which he has played his first
two seasons and I'm not saying throw it out the window,
but kind of understand why his efficiency is where it is.
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, all what you said, plus the fact that
in his sophomore season he was in the top ten
of most doubled players in isolation and in those instances,
I mean, he usually does a good job of hitting
the gaps. I've never watched him and I felt like
he isn't hitting the gaps if the team is switching
against him or.
Speaker 3: Ducking under him.
Speaker 5: I've been pretty okay with how quickly he's pulling up,
and when he isn't pulling up, he's firing one hand
court passes, cross court passes Withion Williams. Zion Williamson draped
all over him to an open Gary Harris in the corner,
only to watch Gary brick that wide open three pointer.
So as the season grew, I believe that both Jamal
Mosley and Paulo Bancaro got better in that regard. Following
the All Star Break, there was a stretch of games
against the Raptors and the Kings where the two guard
whether that was Gary Harris, but he was injured for
a little bit, so Cale Houston took that role. They
would set a flex screen for Powlow to come off,
flipping the sides of the block that he was on
immediately nearest near the nearest wing defender whoever that would be,
would switch to blitz Pallow and that would result in
Pollo immediately open passing to an open Franz Wagner or
Jalenes Suggs for automatic three pointers. So I think having
a station there and moving perimeter threat alongside the first
time All Star is invaluable. With the addition of KCP
drafting De Silva hopefully Jet Howard getting into season, just
giving him more reliable targets and an extra step defenses
have to process before thinking about, yeah, let's blitz this
guy without having it to be a direct causation of Yeah,
every time we want to get Paolo open, we got
to draw plays routinely for this guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be interested like the data on how many
times he needs to give the ball up to then
go out, Like if he's getting the ball on the
elbow in the post and then there's like the doubles
already there, he has to kick it back out then
go up and set a screen to get the ball
back in a somewhat advantageous situation. It feels like he
might be among the league leaders, and like the amount
of times that that is needed to happen, and you
don't want you know, I was gonna ask you, like,
what does the next frontier look like for him? And
there's a bunch of things you could focus on. It
might be a questionable what does the next frontier look
like for the Magic to where maybe he doesn't always
have to work so hard to get his points?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, No, Like I said, I think you surround
him with the invaluable addition of like I said, KCP
drafting this of a hopefully jer Howard getting minutes this season,
just giving him more reliable targets and extra step defenses
after process, like I said before, we're thinking about let's
blit this guy.
Speaker 4: But I think going back.
Speaker 5: To your point about what the next frontier looks like
for Polo, Polo's so awesome that I think the next
frontier for him has to do more with off like
more more mechanically and structurally. I want, I want his
comfort with the feel of the game and his relationship
with Jamal Moseley.
Speaker 4: To to evolve.
Speaker 5: I think I saw both those things grow exponentially throughout
the season, and it carried over into the playoffs. I
remember watching a play while Franz was shooting free throws
against the Cavs.
Speaker 4: I believe it was Game five.
Speaker 5: Moseley called for white stock from from the sideline and
from uh Polo. Banko quickly motioned over to him and
was like, I don't want to run white stack right now.
I want you to give me the Isaacacorro matchup in
isolation and just let me go to work. And behold,
he went to score three consecutive times with a Coro
as his defender, two of which were fading away jumpers.
And I think in January, I want to say it
was January seventh against the Hawks. They were in a
tip and knock battle with the Atlanta Hawks with Dejontay
Murray at the line, and Powell called seventy seven, which
is Orlando's double drag play for and he didn't call
it for himself. He called it for Caleb Houston with
the team down three, and so was he was willing
to station himself as a screener within that play to
generate an open three in the corner for Houston, who
did convert the shot, which eventually led to Orlando winning
and ot over Atlanta. So I think just him and
Jamal Moseley kind of any a better feel for each
other going into year three and going into what I
believe will be another playoff experience will just be good
for him. And I think that's the next frontier for
him more so in a sense of because that that
that space is I do believe is gonna come in.
I can't I couldn't tweet this, but I guess I'll
say it. Orlando is pivoting away from their offensive coordinator
Jesse Murmis from last season, and there they've made a
few few promotions from within, so I do believe their
offense will look different next season.
Speaker 1: What do you think will be the biggest even like
keeping it the pala, what do you if you had
to predict or I know you've laid out through your hope, Like,
what will then be the biggest difference for how he's used.
Speaker 5: I want him to be used as a screener more because.
Speaker 1: Right now in space, like if you have like actual
spacing around him with him as a screener with just
the passing instincts that I've I think he showcased like
even like the lot of gripple stuff from him has
been really really good, especially last season. Yeah, I would
be I'll be off for seeing more of that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean almost every single time that he was he
operated as a screener, whether that was against a I
remember one of the games in against Toronto, he was
having a terrible night. I think he was four for
eleven or four for thirteen or something crazy like that
in the first half, and I remember shutting my computer
off at halftime and saying that, damn, I want them
to use Palo as a screener to alleviate to alleviate
that pressure, because all Toronto was doing was just absolutely
blitzing him and Lo and Behold. To open the second half,
they actually started Joe Ingles at point and they just
ran taking rolls with Poulo as a screener, using Joe
Ingles three point shooting as a threat. And I think
given and provided the right offensive structure around powow and
assuming that Jet Howard does see minutes and KCP and
Gary Harris and Jales Suggs all get better and evolve
as three point shooters, and Franz's three point shoter comes
along as well. The heights that Pollow's offensive structure can
go to as a screener alone would be invaluable.
Speaker 1: Do you believe this is more of just a it's
my own agenda. Do you believe in the step back?
Speaker 5: No, I do not believe in a step back at all.
I genuinely, I genuinely despising a step back. And I'll say,
I'll tell you the reason.
Speaker 4: Why I don't like seeing step back.
Speaker 5: And maybe I'm just having like nightmares from watching what
he did against the Kings and the Warriors. There were
two instances this season, and it was down the stretch
where they could have locked up a potential number two seed.
And both times the Magic were down three against the
Kings and the Warriors with about a minute and fifteen
left to go in in the and they're closing in
the final quarter of regulation, and I wanted it was.
I actually went back and I watched it take today
because I knew you were going to bring this up.
With sixteen seconds left on the shot clock, he took
a step back three and they didn't run the play
that was being called on the sideline at all. And
he did that multiple times over the course of the season.
Speaker 3: This did. I'm just outlined.
Speaker 4: I'm just outlining two for you.
Speaker 5: So I just I just don't enjoy seeing him, specially
take a step back three, especially given the circumstances of
those games.
Speaker 1: I think, so my, you cover this team, watch them
way more than I do. But my argument again, like
against that would be if he used it as a
crutch to where it felt like he was in high volume,
like kind of leaning on that too much, Like this
isn't James Hardener, Luka Doncic. There's there was that game,
can'tmeraer which game it was against Cleveland, but like it's
in the third quarter, the shot clocks at like seven
or eight, and like you now have this guy he
drains a step back, like with four or five seconds
left on the shot clock from a bit of the break,
like to have that in your arsenal. And it happens
after surveying the floor for a couple of seconds. He's
not making it a dead ball. And if you were
also watching, not you watching, Like if we're watching his
other three pointers, it's not like, oh, he's catching it
and then has to like go into his dribble moves.
I like, I believe in it as I think I
believe in it so much because it feels like an
interesting counter or it's like when you look at what
Nicole Jokic does, completely different players will make that clear,
but like he gets the ball these grenades what could
be grenades all the time, and he just has the
ability to get to the sombor shuffle or throw off
these ridiculous off balance jump shots that go in and
it's like they're never a crutch, They're never a crux
of his game.
Speaker 2: And I don't feel that way with Palo.
Speaker 1: It feels more like, I know, look, the percentages aren't
there just yet he shot like I think he only
made one step the step back I'm actually referencing the
PLAYFFS might have be his only step back of the
series that went in. But like to have that tool,
and I think you look at just how comfort how
comfortable he seems getting to it and the space that
he kind of generates on it without too much effort,
and he just has the size to shoot over guys
to begin with. I'm just not used to seeing someone
who's not a wing sized, Like there are wings there
are as tall as him, but he's built like a
big like an actual forward and to see someone like
that just get to a step back and looking at
how fluid it looks.
Speaker 2: To me, I just I'm a believer in it. I'm
not saying he needs to take five a game, but
I believe.
Speaker 1: My next question for you is, uh, the can we
go through some of the younger guys you already talked
about Anthony Black, so I think there are two more
that stand out, just to see what type of role
you think they might have, her general impressions you have
of their game, and I think we'll believe, We'll believe.
Let's begin with Jet Howard, who just didn't play meaningful
minutes for them last year, spends a lot of the
time in Osceola, And I was writing something a couple
of months ago where I watched a bunch of what
Jet Howard was doing, and I was like, not, I
don't want to say I'm miffed why he wasn't playing
for like the bigger club, but he was doing a
lot of the stuff that it felt like their offense
could have needed and might have opened things up for
everybody else. And so do you see him even with
the infusion of KCP, like getting the opportunity to have
at least a somewhat regular role this season.
Speaker 5: So yeah, no, I'll speak on Jet and Da Silva
at once. And like you just alluded to what the
Magic offense needs and what Howard and Dsilva both can
provide go hand in hand as ideal fits. And watching
Tristan in Summer League and Howard throughout his rookie season
at Osceola even when both the biggest thing that stood
out to me about both players was even when both
players aren't doing something, they're still doing something due to
the gravity that they command on the floor in itself.
In Summer League, the Magic utilize stack screen actions and
another play called Twist, but within their stack screen set
either they ran it twice with Jet on the floor
and Disilva not on the floor, and with Disilva on
the floor and Jet not on the floor, but anyways,
they'd have either guy set the stack screen and then
Jay Scrubb is the ball screener with Ab rejecting the
ball screen, and when Ab would go away from him
multiple times, it would just become a simple rip for
scrub to go to the rim and with one defender
to guard too, and both times when the Magic ran
it against the Cavaliers opening night on Summer League. Both
defenders traveled with the shooter, which was jet or Disilva.
So I think that in itself and then that left
scrub wide open under the rim. I think you pair
that with how important Da Silva and je Howard are
as ghost screeners, and is those type of advantages I
imagine that Orlando can bring to the offense to provide
it that lift.
Speaker 1: So do you think that the Silver specifically, do you
think that he's gonna get any run with the like
there is that and that's that sort of like, well,
if we have to phase out Gary Harris type situation
like it, because you look at his roster, it's deep,
and so you could say, yeah, they'll find minutes for them,
like who are those minutes coming at the expense of.
Speaker 5: So Gary signed an eight million dollar contract and he
has a team option, So I believe again, I don't
know what d Silva's minutes are going to look like.
I think if last season is any repertoire of what's
going to happen this season is I would want to
say Ostiola, but you also have to understand that he's
older than ab and jet So putting Tristan da Silva
in Ostiola at twenty three years old, which just I
don't know how that would bold well for the Magic,
But I think what they'll do is they'll play Gary
Harris up until the trade deadline and flip him at
And if they flip him at the deadline, maybe Da
Silva gets phased back in to replace Gary Harris. I
just don't know what that looks like, but I do
believe that Jeed Howard will be in their rotation.
Speaker 1: The good thing about hosting a podcast is I get
to push my own agendas, and one of my biggest
pet peeves with this team for the past couple of
years is I would like them to play faster. They
are very good at really capitalizing off turnovers. You look
at the overall transition frequency. Look at them trying to
push off live off live rebounds. I mean he let
alone after makes they I was actually I couldn't even
believe it was this low when I was prepping an
outline for this podcast, that they were twenty ninth in
average offensive possession time, And I think there's it feels
like low hanging fruit to me, even with and I
think the responsibility could fall on a bunch of different people,
Like sometimes Polo feels like he could attack quicker, and
like being semi trends. It doesn't have to be we
get caught up in like pace and like transition frequency
and raw terms. Semi transition stuff is fine with me.
It just feels like when you're gonna go the route
you are, even if you think that Anthony Black can
have a bigger role, even if you trust Palo's passing
fronds and general, even if you trust all these guys,
like don't they have.
Speaker 2: The personnel to play faster? Was this like a like
they don't?
Speaker 1: It just feels like when you have a deficit in
terms of if you were looking for a proven game manager,
even if you don't want to play that way, like
a way to overcome that while you're trying to figure
out all this other stuff. And you mentioned a lot
of it towards the beginning of the podcast or previously,
of things that they could implement, things that they might implement,
It just feels like that might be one of the
forms of low hanging fruit this team should be gobbling
up moving forward.
Speaker 2: Am I wrong?
Speaker 5: No, You're not wrong, And it doesn't make sense for
a team that young to be that slow, So I understand.
So I understand it from that perspective. But like I said,
given how young a lot of the players are, a
lot of the players also haven't fully digested the entire playbook.
And then we've kind of spoken about how the playbook
flipped from it being run from Natibbots to Jesse Myers
kind of just before the season was about to start,
So there would be a lot of times when timeouts
would happen, or even within transition where Browns is putting
up his finger and he wants to run pistol, but
Paulo's attacking downhill. So there's there's always been a lot
of like miscommunication because not everyone seems to be on
the same page, because not everyone understands the playbook to
the same degree. So I think given another year kind
of almost bringing back the same entire team aside from
joining those and Markel Faultz and a veteran edition KCP,
I think another year under some structure, under the same offense,
under the same coordinators will bowld well and we'll flip
that twenty ninth into something more digestible.
Speaker 1: We already talked about the three point volume, And I
do agree with you that you shouldn't just get them
up for the sake of getting them up. But I
think we both expect them to take more threes. But
is there a player that you look at their game
or on this roster and we know kcp's gonna infuse
kind of his own type of volume, But is there
a player you look at that was already on the
roster and say, like, they have the talent, they have
the ability to just get up more threes or do
we kind of focus on the primary guys that like
Jales Sucks might have room to go up a little
bit with the way he was shooting the ball and
the way he's kind of used off and on offense
at points, But like should Pallow or Franz, is that
something that part of their gamer like, oh, hey, like
those threes probably need to come up.
Speaker 3: To Yeah, I mentioned earlier.
Speaker 5: I genuinely believe that everyone's three pointers attempts need to
come up. And I think provided with the correct offensive
structure and assuming that it's not going to just be
predominantly in transition, we're going to dump it off to
you on a delay or in transition I'm going to
drive in the paint and then kick it out to
you in the corner. I think all those components pile
up into one will increase the attempts, to make the
three point attempts more digestible, because what are they are
right now? Twenty seventh in volume, and like I said,
with the addition of.
Speaker 3: Jet Howard.
Speaker 5: KCP, I expect the volume to rise in itself.
Speaker 2: You had a weird season.
Speaker 1: I know it was marked by injuries, but there was
like a point and it was funny that people, I
feel like, latched onto this for too long because it
was just sort of like a flicker in the matter
schedule where it was always Wendell Carter, You're expendable because
look at what Gogo Batadze is doing and she's like,
oh good.
Speaker 2: But Toadze eventually became.
Speaker 1: An afterthought aside from stay healthy. What does he kind
of need to do to make sure that he doesn't
Wendell Carter Junior that is fade in the background because
there's a lot of games where you watch and it
just like you don't feel him as much. And was that,
you know, because you've mentioned sort of the offensive playbook
turnover was that at all, like a byproduct of was like, Okay,
he's injured and they're kind of already incorporating all these
new things, and so other people are uncomfortable, but he
seemed to have. And Wendell Carter Junior is a podcast favorite,
so I love wend Olcarter Junior. But he had such
a disjointed season. What is it that you're monitoring to
like see that he can It does not even improve
a public to make sure that that doesn't happen again,
where it's that uneven of a year.
Speaker 5: So yeah, he got stymied out of the playbook completely.
You're you're completely right about that. The Magic they ran
a lot of offensive structure around him in twenty twenty
two with him operating as a hub. I mean, he's
their best center, and the role he played modeled that
of the Celtics and Chriss Zingis, the Kings and the
Monte Sabonis, the Nuggets and Nikola Jokic and to an extent,
Draymond Green of the Warriors. All those teams surround their
big men facilitators with shooters and constant motion and cutting actions,
and what they did a season ago, not this season
was just let Windell operate as the five and a
lot of delay action in five out structure, and we
didn't see any of that this season, and I think
we've forgotten how vital it is to have a big
man who can make those quick decisions and find teammates
making good cuts if the primary goal is to have
an offensive game plan that prioritizes off ball movement on
the wings, which Orlando does. But I think this is
the biggest thing that that is a result. The biggest
toll his health took was it it stimied into his
lack of aggressiveness on the boards.
Speaker 3: He wasn't being aggressive on.
Speaker 5: The boards after he came back from his injury. He
wasn't dunky the ball as frequently as he used as
as he would use to. I remember watching that they
played the Hornets and he was wide open with I
think vasa yeap with him under the rim, and he
went for a layup, like a tip and layup instead
of just pounding it, pounding a dunk over a much
smaller Charlotte defender, and it resulted in a miss. And
there's been so many times this past season after he
came back from his hand injury where he's just watched
wide open layout attempts instead of just Jimmy with authority,
and we're not seeing any of those bone crushing screens
that he used to provide to give Paolo and Fawn space.
When he sets screens, those defenders just go through like
there's no screen even being attached in front of them.
You wouldn't even know that there's a seven footer who's
trying to screen with how often smaller guards were able
to just navigate away from his screens, and these a
lot of times not really the best defenders either. So
I think a lot of it just has to do
with health and then just giving him the opportunity to
earn back that trust, in allowing him the chance to,
like I said, with those quick decisions that he was
in twenty twenty two, and find teammates making good cuts,
assuming that their offensive goal is still to prioritize of
ball movement off the wings.
Speaker 1: I think this is more of an overarching question about
how they'll approach the big man situation specifically, But they
have a lot of different players and looks they could
get to. When you look at Wendell Carter Junior having
Jonathan Isaac, they have Mo Wagner who also like I
don't know, like once every third game just does something
where it seems like Mo Wagner should be a superstar
and not Mo Wagner. They have Gogo Patats on this
roster of course, Like what is the hierarchy in terms
of importance with this big man structure? A way to like,
you know, with Wendell Cutter Junior specifically, let's say, like
does it maybe make more sense to like should you
be staggering him more from Polo and so like you
play him so like you can run more of the
offense through him and maybe that's where he's gonna be
more at home. And you could take an additional I
know they went to it at some points last year,
but like you could take a look at Isaac and
Wendell Carter Junior and in your front front court it
is there a look as like a primary lineup that
you prefer, Like do you view Wendell Cuarter juniors like, well,
this is like the guy that they need to have
for their core lineups or you more intrigued by let's
say having Jonathan Isaac in the front court with with
Palo Bankerrobu. I find this, and maybe I'm overrating it,
but I find this to be like a fascinating subplot
of just like it's not going to necessarily define their future,
but they have a lot of different options that they
could go to when you're looking at how they structure
the big man rotation, how they structure the four or
five in general, and I'm just wondering who you kind
of view is like or most likely to become like
the center mainstay. And then, of course, hovering over all this,
we mentioned Wendell Cutter Junior's health. It's how healthy and
will Jonathan Isaac be and how many games will he play?
How many minutes can he be shoulder? So maybe I'm
like the only idiot that finds that sort of interesting,
but this feels like an intriguing subplot of this magic team.
Speaker 5: So yeah, now the center mainstay is going to be
Wendell Carr Jr. Regarded that he is able to stay healthy.
But the only time I so, they've been times where
they have played Johnathan Isaac at the five, and they
experimented that in the Milwaukee Bucks game to close the season,
which went really really well for them, And then jamal
Moley kind of used that in the play in the
playoffs before he eventually had gone back to Wendell Carr
Junior just because the Cleveland Cavaliers were just playing off
of Jonathan Isaac in the corner. And now you're kind
of playing four on five with Isaac just not being
as big of an offensive weapon as Wendell Carter junr is.
So I think the hierarchy of the centers kind of
stays the same with Wendell Carr Junior being your mainstay,
and then you can put j I in at the five.
I would put j j I in at the five
and crunch time if you're down by five, I mean,
if you're up by five and UNI defense, I think
you can have a lineup of the same four with
Ji swapping out Dell at the five, and then in
the result that you're up by five in crunch time,
the starters just remain the same. But then I think
it's like I said, Wendell and then Mo and then
Go Go, and then Jonathan Isaac subbing in at the
five in those crunch time closing minutes when they want
to go to their quote unquote death lineup.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's the I mean that that makes
a ton of sense.
Speaker 1: Who do you view though, as just looking at next
season specifically as sort of more important to this team?
Who is gonna have more of an influence over how
they're faring? Is it's someone like a Cole Anthony, who
ever really talked about yet we've met you mentioned tangentially
like well, the shot making and creation ability is important?
Or Jonathan I they played two very different positions, but
his guys who are most likely coming off the bench,
like who of you was kind of more mission critical
to this team's success right now.
Speaker 5: I think given the addition of k TVs. Cola Pope
and the offensive web what he brings offensively, I would
say Jonathan Isaac is more of a weapon for Orlando.
Then Cole Anthony isn't funny enough to bring up Cole Anthony.
He fits Orlando like a sore thumb. I mean, this
team is employed by people listed at six ' five
and over and multiple players who can be involved in
pick and rolls, switching to blitz boxing in one and
all kinds of defenses that defensive coordinators salivate for. And
then you have Cole Anthony who's listed at six to
three and was having was getting played off the floor
against the Cleveland Cavaliers because JB. Bickerstaff kept targeting him
in picking rolls, both he and Joe ingles.
Speaker 1: Uh. I mean if that is true, though, then so
not the If it's true that Jayi is more important,
it feels like this, you know, I kind of wondered
if and they could certainly do is to I.
Speaker 2: Mean, nig a dude on offense and defense.
Speaker 1: But like in my head, I'm like anti Black can
be viewed as kind of like the secondary wing and
now kind of like your view of col Anthony and
even kind of the offense at larger if he's like, well,
like no, col Anthony might just be like a lot
more important than I thought he was going to be
this upcoming season to what they're trying to do. So
what is a strength of this team that we have
not talked about yet that maybe you think flies under
the radar?
Speaker 5: Ooh. I wouldn't say that's it's not being talked about enough.
But I haven't heard Jamal Moseley's name mentioned within the
addition of Contavious Colo Pope. And the reason I say
that is the league essentially allowed one of the best
defensive minds in the league to now add another infinity
stone to his death lineup as he continues to stash
the best defensive players in the league with Jill and Suggs,
CACP and Jonathan Isaac, who I think a lot of
people believe is another all defensive name, given he can
remain healthy for the sixty five game requirement, and thinking
out loud about all the defenses that Orlando can run
to mess up opposing offenses game plans with the personnel
is just so fun.
Speaker 1: What do you view as the so moving on to
like the weaknesses portion of this, what do you or
the bigger need? It'd be nice if they could get
this wrapped into one player. But is it kind of
just like that prime not even primary, but like that
for general element or is it like the someone who
can make shots not just from the outside, but like
create those shots for themselves as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I want their biggest need and their biggest weakness
last season was when a play breaks down, whether that
be Paleo Franz or whether that's a play being run
in the timeouts and one of the players is completely
messing up that play. How can I make something of
that play? Because, like I said, they they just never
had a secondary ball handler, someone who can create their
shot off the dribble, and we don't know if Jet
Howard can be that guy.
Speaker 3: I believe KCP can be that guy.
Speaker 5: Cole Anthony has done it to a degree. Jon Suggs
has done it. But I think you need to have
someone in that kind of third sense after Polo and
Franz if and when the primary action doesn't work, to
leave you with something so you're not left with the
Pollo or a Franz isolation with the shot clock winding down,
which was another direct result, like I said earlier, of
Polos efficiency, because when a play breaks down, everyone's just
giving it to Pollow and saying, hey, can you just
bail us out real quick? So I think that's what
they need and that's what ab Jet and KCP will provide.
And I think aside from that, just having a lot
of connective passers and having more guys on the floor
who just understand where to be and when to be
when a play breaks down is just so vital to
this team's offensive success.
Speaker 1: Do you think that this team, let's say that the
solve isn't on the roster it's not happening by midyear.
Do you think that they are operating on a timeline
that would I don't want to use the word mandate,
but suggest that they'll be aggressive to pursue said upgrade
or upgrades or whatever like at the deadline, because like
we met I mentioned at the top of this podcast,
they're I guess not a rare team. There's been other
teams in this situation, but like their core is young,
but like they are up against the mediate expectations because
of how many games and how well they played last
year and because you know, I think a lot of
people with Oklahoma City when they were pushing for them
to make moves that was well, we need to see
like what their weaknesses are once they get to the playoffs,
and it's like, okay, Oklahoma City saw that and then
addressed it. Orlando maybe got they're a little bit quicker,
like it was Paalo second season, but it was they
kind of struggled against the Calves the exact ways that
we expected them to struggle in that setting. And so
it feels like they have that information and if the
roster doesn't resolve it.
Speaker 2: In the addition of case he doesn't help it enough.
Speaker 1: Would you think that that's something they would seriously look
And I'm not talking about like waiting for the buyout
market or making some sort of just throwaway trade. But
do you think that this organization has a high enough
view of itself internally in the in the immediate to
be looking for a consequential upgrade if it needs it,
or is that no, They're gonna let this play out again.
They're more likely to make any seismic or bigger time
changes over the offseason of twenty twenty five.
Speaker 5: So I do believe that they will be aggressive given
given the player presents itself. So, like I said, the
team has gotten where they are through several years of
calculated decisions, albeit small or large, that have given Orlando
of the optionality that the team has had recently. So,
like I said, like you said, there was no more
enjoyable stage in a team's live cycle than where the
Magic were this past season. But this front office has
continued to approach things very cautiously. However, I do believe
they pulled the trigger when the right time presents itself.
I just don't believe laying out all the chips for
an aging Paul George Tias Jones, Klay Thompson can be
characterized as a quote unquote lack of aggressiveness. And I'm
not saying that that's what you said, but given that
they have Gary and Moe on those team options, I
wouldn't be shocked to see those two get dumped at
the trade deadline to land a.
Speaker 3: Bigger fish, to help land them a bigger fish.
Speaker 5: But I think just that player, whoever that player is,
just needs to prevent them present themselves.
Speaker 3: And like I said, it takes.
Speaker 5: Two to tango in trades now, so now player's got
to present themselves. He's got to want to go to Orlando,
and Orlando's got to be willing to fish out the
pieces to acquire that player.
Speaker 1: I think they need to be even more open minded
than that, because if the players under contract for multiple years,
I don't care if they want to be in Orlando
or not. Like you come there and you sway them
by winning basketball games. We've seen it done before. And
I think the other thing with them, and this is
it's a magic. Fans have given me pushback for how
hard I've been on the fact that they weren't more
aggressive in doing something like that. Yet the reason that
I'm so forward is one I think that they're good
enough to where even if you want to look at
the lay of the land and say, I don't know
if we want to go all in yet, like we're
kind of waiting for these other contenders to fall off
a little bit. The thing that really starts out is
like they don't need one specific player to wear. It's like,
just like if it was a team where it's like
you need LaMelo ball for to make the difference that
you needed to make. And it's no like if they
got a Malcolm Brogden, it could be an Afrey Simon's,
it could be a Colin Sexton, it could have been
a Tias Jones in free agency, although he wouldn't have
I don't think fit with sort of their on a
flexibility motif. Maybe they're waiting on an opportunity that we
just haven't discussed yet where it's like, oh, does bog
Don Bogdanovic become available, or does it you know, Darius
Garland or Kobe White, even Kobe White be great for
this team. They can go so many different levels of player,
like you don't even need to get into the specific
names to be like it doesn't. It could be if
it's a star that fits okay, great sure, or someone
who has that ceiling, but it could also just be
like maybe like on another team, like maybe this guy
wants up being our six or seventh most important player,
but like getting someone who does that stuff that you're
outlaying it makes such a huge difference for this team
because they're so good in all these other respects.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I no, I agree with that. But the pushback.
Speaker 5: Of why I believe they won't go out and get
a player is because the front office has come out
and said multiple times that they don't want specialists, and
a lot of the players that you listed are specially
like Bote Bogdan. Bogdanovic is a specialist. He specializes in
three point shooting, and understandably it is a need for
the Orlando Magic.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's underselling both Don Bardanovic quite a bit,
and like if you consider bogd on Bardona, I'm saying
about the Magic, not you. They consider Boke Doun Bardanovic
a specialist.
Speaker 2: I don't believe.
Speaker 5: That in the regards of the defensive caliber that they
have on their team. I mean, Cole Anthony's a microwave
scorer and he can't defend. No, I'm not saying Cole
is better than Bogdanovitch or Bogdanovics is better than Cole,
But a lot of the times, even when Cole had
it going very rarely did we see.
Speaker 4: Him close games.
Speaker 3: I mean he would have.
Speaker 5: There were games where I thought that he he should
have been gifted the opportunity to close the game, and
he just wasn't, just because he would get eviscerated and
pick and rolls and saw that in the playoffs on
them in the regular season. So I think Jamal Moseley's
biggest fear is to acquire a player who doesn't fit
his defensive identity. So I think a lot of the
pushback of why they're not going out and getting a
and Thenfernie Simons is due to that regard.
Speaker 2: I just you're built to insulate one player like that.
Speaker 3: I agree with you.
Speaker 5: I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. I'm saying, at
some point in your life cycle, you have to give
up some defense to acquire offense to help your.
Speaker 4: Offense.
Speaker 3: But we just don't.
Speaker 5: I've never found I haven't seen the willingness to do so,
and like I said, if they play Jet Howard, if
they played Tristan de Silva, if they play KCP, it'll
be a step in the right direction. But I think
they believe they hit the jackpop by landing KCP, who's
a three and D guy. Like I said at the
top of the podcast, he fits their prototypical three and
D guy kind of wing. But they just don't seem
to be in a position where they're willing to give
up defense for offense. And that's a big reason why
we saw Jet Howard in Ostola his entire rookie season,
and it's come to a point where every single time
that he speaks to the media, he never talks about
offense anymore. He only talks about defense.
Speaker 2: So smart, that's good gamesmanship by him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's good games have been shipped by him.
Speaker 5: But Jamal Mosy's entire identity has become defensive oriented. So
if you're not willing to play defense, if you don't
want to play defense, if you cannot play defense, you will.
Speaker 4: Not be in Orlando.
Speaker 5: And there's just been no evidence given to me where
I can sit here and tell you otherwise, which is
why I'm saying that I just don't believe that that's
going to happen under Jamal Moseley.
Speaker 2: Are you ready to answer the cookie cutter portion of
this podcast?
Speaker 4: I'm ready.
Speaker 1: What does this team's top ten rotation look like at
full strength?
Speaker 5: For you? So I think we can pencil in the
starting line of being Jalen Sug's at the point guard
KCP being at the two Browns at the three, Hollow
at the four, when a healthy Wendell at the five,
and then I think your bench is consumed of Jonathan Isaac,
Anthony Block, Cole, Anthony, Jet.
Speaker 4: Howard, Ooh, and Mo Voger.
Speaker 1: I like that you think that or that Jet Howard
is going to get like a real opportunity.
Speaker 2: I think that's a smart move by them because.
Speaker 1: I would have had like because it will be coming
at the like the expense of some vets minutes. But
I think you're at the point where it's right you
made the moves that you made. If you want to
see if you have somebody who's going to address what
you need internally, and I guess if he's focusing on defense,
and you don't want to compromise that anyway, like you
have to roll the dice and give him real reps,
and it's better to find out like sooner rather than later.
So I actually hope you're right. I would have had
Gary Harris penciled into that spot just because of the
veteran sort of like going the diplomatic root of it all.
But I the approach you're taking is the one that
I would one hundred percent agree with.
Speaker 5: The reason I said Jet over Gary Harris is a
couple of reasons, number one being I think people don't
understand that after this season, Jet only has one more
season until he's due for his rookie contract extension. And
if I'm Jet Howard's agent and he doesn't get any
minutes this season, that's gonna be a real problem to me,
because there's just no way an Asian is just going
to sit there and just allow a lottery pick to
not play two seasons going into his rookie contract extension
that third season. And then we're also coming off of
Gary Harris shooting seven for twenty two in the playoffs,
and like I mentioned, of those plays, Jamal Moley never
drew up a single play for Gary Harris. He didn't
come like I said, he didn't come off of beer.
Just know all his attempts were as a result of kickoffs, kickouts,
and the defense that he provided was really the only
reason that he was kept in the lineup on top
of his veteran presence in the playoffs. So I think
if we're going to start this season, Brush, I do
believe that I'd phased if they phase out Gary Harris's
minutes to give Jet Howard an opportunity and if that
defense isn't all that, and if that defensive Jet Howard
isn't willing to play defense, if he's getting targeted and
pick and rolls. I do believe that Gary Harris finds
his way back into the rotation. But to start off
the season, I'd like to see Jet Howard be given
that rotational minutes and have him give him, give him
every opportunity to succeed until he's given you nowhere to
go but back to Gary Harris. I just don't believe
you can go to Gary Harris and then go back
go to Jet Howard and then go back to Gary Harris.
I'd rather be seamless. You start, you start with Jet Howard,
and then you go back to Gary Harris. And then
if Jet Howard wants to say anything. If his agent
wants to say anything, you say, hey, we started the
season with Jah Howard. We gave him the chance to
have rotational minutes. We gave him a whole season in
Osceola to develop his defense.
Speaker 3: He played summerly.
Speaker 5: We liked what he saw. He came back in he
earned the right to be given those rotational minutes, and
he was just getting targeted and picking rolls defensively. Despite
what he offers us offensively, we just can't continue to
move forward with him, so we wanted to go back
to Gary Irris.
Speaker 1: Well, it's also for that, you know, you mentioned the
jet Howard like in the age and stuff. It's also
for the magics benefit, just to know, like we have
this information, this works, it doesn't work, and let's make
the decision from there. What is your It's obviously to
some extent matchup dependent, but what should be the go
to We're the most used crunch time unit for this team.
Speaker 3: Oh.
Speaker 5: I think their most used closing lineup last season was
the same starting lineup with Dell at the five and
Suggs and Harris at the one and two, with Pollow
and Funds at the three and four. I certainly don't
expect that to be the case this season, but I
think it's situational.
Speaker 3: Are you in crunch.
Speaker 5: Time and you're up by five or down by five?
Like I said, if up by five, I didn't dude
j I in at the five and slap out Dell
and being down by five and I need more offense,
I would just result back to the starting lineup with
Jalen Suggs, KCP, Polo Franz and Dell just due to
the sole purpose that Dell provides more offensively than Johnson
Isaac does.
Speaker 1: Do you think if you're looking for this team to
play a little bit faster though, do you think Isaac
would fit that motif better than like looking at the
offensive and I know when Dells a more dynamic player,
but if you're trying to, you know, erase a deficit
in a small amount of time, does he prohibit you
from playing maybe as fast as you want that team
to play in those situations.
Speaker 3: No, when when Dell isn't slow, he doesn't know.
Speaker 1: I don't like he's a plotter, but like j I
still has sort of that different, like that different element
to it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, he definitely.
Speaker 5: Does have a different element element to it. I won't
I won't. I won't counter counter you on that. I
just think that given what we saw of how we
looked at the five against Cleve, like I said, I
think it's matchup dependent as well. Like if you're playing
a Cleveland team and you're down by five, or like
I said, you're up by five, I wouldn't want Jonathan
Isaac playing against Evan Mobley and Dared Allen. I would
rather just have Wendell and then I would have Ji
to counteract that twin tower alignment that they have in Cleveland,
and then have it be with Sugs KCP or SUGS
Frands at shooting guard and Pallow and then Ji at
the four and Wendell at the five. But in a
normal circumstance where a team like you're not playing Cleveland
where they have two bigs, I would have Ji at
the five and swap.
Speaker 4: Them out with Dell.
Speaker 1: What's a weird or funky or just off beat lineup
you would like to see this team try?
Speaker 5: Normally, I would come in here and say give me
all the defense, like gim me Jones, suggs KCP, Franz,
Johnathan Isaac and then Wendell and like we can just
bench Powoll because j I and Wendell are better defenders
than him. But given Orlando's offensive structure, give me all
shooters in this case. If we can't, let's go let's
go Jet Howard at point guard. At shooting guard. We
can go Gary Harris, a small ford, we can go
ca CP, a power forward, we can go Tristan da Silva,
and then at center we can go Windell.
Speaker 3: I want to get real.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's a lot of youth in there too,
because you have Jet Howard and Tristan de Silva in there.
Speaker 2: I'd love to see it.
Speaker 1: I would lean towards five out as well, but I
would like take a different element to it, like give
me Paalo at the five, surround him with I'm gonna
trust Sugs is shooting, so I'm gonna play him with
KCP and Jet Howard. So we're opening up the magic
defensively there.
Speaker 3: So what we're doing.
Speaker 5: Is we're doing Foba foba polo where Steve Kerr was
having him play at the five.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a palo, But I think that I mean with
Sugs on the court in KCP, like I think the
defense probably ends up being better.
Speaker 2: I guess you could quite and I don't know.
Speaker 1: Palette five is not something I ever think needs to
become a crutch, But I think that dude could pretty
much do anything. I have such a high opinion of him.
I don't know how i'd finished the lineup that just
put the Silva in there.
Speaker 2: I'm putting two youngsters in here, so it'll never happen,
but throw him in there. But you're not small, so it's.
Speaker 1: Like you palette the five KCP and Suggs, go with
the Silva, and then throw Jet Howard in there. So
it's like that's your quote unquote small ball lineup, but
you're not really that small, so it's the.
Speaker 5: Same lineup as mine. But you took out Polo. Well
we're putting in Polo, except for it's instead of Windell.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can probably talk me into like Caleb
Houston instead of the Silva, or maybe.
Speaker 3: I forgot about Caleb Houston.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, if I really cared about that, I
just don't know if I trust Cole Anthony enough. Gary
Harris has been all over the place the past few years.
It looked like he was having a renaissance in Orlando
and that as you mentioned, the playoffs happened. Yeah, the
fifth one is oddly tough. I mean it should let's
be honest, it should be Franz and so like, if
you trust in Franz is a jumper there, it's okay,
make him the fifth. We'll give me Pala with the
five with Franz, Jet Howard, KCP and Jael and Suggs.
But I like, I you know, I'm thirsty to see
like better floor balance from this team, and so that
lineup definitely gives you it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just don't see it.
Speaker 5: I don't see anywhere well either of these lineups will
ever be portrayed.
Speaker 2: At the same time, it's all point of this exercise.
We're allowed to have fun.
Speaker 1: I'll harp on it too much. So as we're recording this,
they're over under is set at forty seven and a half.
Are you taking the over the under on that? And
how many wins do you ultimately see them getting? Where
do you see them landing in the Eastern Conference that
whole spiel.
Speaker 4: You said forty seven and a half, as they're over.
Speaker 1: Under correct as of August nineteenth.
Speaker 3: I'll take the over.
Speaker 5: I'll take the over I'll put them at exactly fifty
one wins. I think that's uh, that's a.
Speaker 3: Three game improvement from.
Speaker 2: Last season, I believe, Yeah, three win improvement.
Speaker 1: Which we talked about this with this team, not me
and you, Grant and I talked about it when we
were doing like sort of better or worse exercise.
Speaker 2: They're like the quintessential.
Speaker 1: We have to remember progress isn't linear, so that I
think we both picked them to win more games anyway,
but like they could win forty six and just still
be better equipped to win in the playoffs. But their
over unders like fascinating because I think, look, if Cleveland's healthier,
if Indiana doesn't deal with a Tyree's injury of the Knicks,
you have presumably a better slash healthier version of the Sixers.
The Celtics are gonna be right there. I don't trust
the Heat still, So it's just they're they're like in
that gaggle of just like there are six teams I
feel like in the East where you could see any outcome,
or I guess five because Boston just feels like pennsil
limit for the top. But there's those five teams that
you could talk me into any order in this, Like
if you told me the Magic had the two seed,
I'd be like, Okay, Like I'm not gonna flinch at that.
I'm not going to predict it, but I'm not gonna flinch.
You told me that's what happened. So this team, certainly,
I think has a high immediate ceiling. I'll just be
curious to see how it all kind of translates and
whether they have develop enough, have done enough, and will
run enough stuff to like they need to materially improve
this offensive attack. I think that, like, if you're gonna
enter fifty win territory and they do that without like
a like a league average ish offense at bare minimum,
that would be absolutely shocking to me.
Speaker 5: Yeah. No, I think the Magic are at a point where,
even if they were to dip the all forty seven wins,
I wouldn't necessarily view them as a worst team from
last season because, like you said, like there's a lot
of variations that go into why you've won less games
than you did the season before. The Magic We're dealt
with a lot of injury luck a lot of time.
There were multiple times there's a batch of games they
never played the Miami Heat at full strength. Ever, Jimmy
Butler missed two games, bam at a Bio missed another game,
and then when they played the Bucks, one time they
were without Giannis, another time the team was without Damian Lillard,
Joel Andbii's health is also a common question for the
Philadelphia seventy six ers. So, like I said, I think
the Magic are at a stage in their life cycle
where if they were to be one, two, three, four,
five or six, and just as long as they avoid
the play in I wouldn't necessarily delineate this season's success
despite lesser wins as a worse season, because once you
start the playoffs you're on a clean slate again and
the team is structured to I believe advanced in the
first round easier than they were the season prior to.
So as long as they can get to the playoffs
and avoid the plan, I don't necessarily think that having.
Speaker 4: Fifty to fifty one, fifty two, fifty three, fifty four
to fifty.
Speaker 5: Five wins necessarily will will come will make me come
back next season and say, oh, hey, the Orlanto Magic
were just so much better. I think progress for the
Orlanta Magic is can you get past the first round,
and can you put up a fight in the second round,
and what does that flight fight look like? And who
did you lose to in the second round? And who
did you beat in the first round to get to.
Speaker 4: The second round.
Speaker 5: I think that's the kind of life cycle that we're
in at this point.
Speaker 1: Is there anything out else or anyone else on this
team about this team that I didn't ask you about,
We didn't talk about that. You think we need to
discuss before I let you skidaddle? Nope, dope, you just
made it through. Your first appearance on Hardware Knox was
on how do you How do you feel?
Speaker 3: I feel good? I feel good. This was also my
second podcast I've ever done.
Speaker 2: I still find that wild.
Speaker 1: We Gotta tell the we Gotta Tell more podcasts invite
you on the Twitter handles on screen in the podcast
you hube description and speaking of that, can you just
tell our listeners where they can find you and all
the content that you're putting out?
Speaker 5: Well, I'm hoping, I'm praying that you can still find
me on Twitter X whatever it's called. My acount was
suspended you to FIVA regulations on Twitter. If you're listening
to this podcast, Elon. If you're listening to this podcast,
please unsuspend me from Twitter. If not, I'm gonna just
have to create a new account. I don't know what
that's gonna look like at this point, but if you
are on Twitter and my account is active, my account
is listed on the bottom right fawz a N and
you are underscore, you can find my work at the
six Man Show dot com. Go hit on my guys,
I work for the six Man Show podcast.
Speaker 4: Go hit them apollow as well and you can find
all my work.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, and rest is sure. I'll be
passing you again in the future, so thanks for your timing.
Speaker 4: Inside Man appreciate you. Dan