Speaker 1: Hey, what's going on? Welcome to Cleave to Antiquity Today.
Speaker 1: I'm joined by the one, the only, Jayder what's going on? Brother?
Speaker 2: Hey? Do what's up? Glad to be chatting again. We
Speaker 2: had a good zoom call well back, and I'm glad
Speaker 2: to reconnect. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I've been excited for this one. I think this
Speaker 1: will be cool. So for those that are tuning in,
Speaker 1: kind of what I've been doing lately since I made
Speaker 1: the announcement I'm seeking an enter into the Orthodox Church
Speaker 1: is I've been inviting guests on to do a Q
Speaker 1: and A. So we'll be doing that this live stream.
Speaker 1: So the way this is going to work for y'all,
Speaker 1: if you want to ask a question, put a queue
Speaker 1: in front of your question in the chat. I will
Speaker 1: start it. I'll be pulling them up in the order
Speaker 1: that they're received. Jay. If there's one you don't want
Speaker 1: to mess with, let me know when I'll skip past
Speaker 1: that one. And then also if you want to skip
Speaker 1: the line, you can send in a super chat. I'll
Speaker 1: pull those up first just as a thank you for
Speaker 1: supporting the stream, but go ahead and start sending those in.
Speaker 1: Put a queue in front of your question. If you
Speaker 1: don't put a queue. I'm not going to see it.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna be able to start, So I'll go
Speaker 1: ahead and I'll start diving into this first one. Super chat, Jay,
Speaker 1: unmute dude. All right, let's see here's a question that.
Speaker 2: I could unmute myself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what does the church teach about regular Orthodox Christians
Speaker 1: having a having spiritual experiences with God like the monks?
Speaker 1: Is that just reserved for monks? No?
Speaker 2: I think if you look at Saint Simmy and the
Speaker 2: New Theologian, the whole story of that is that he
Speaker 2: was combating what was called a form of massallionism, which
Speaker 2: is the idea that really only some tiny spiritual elite
Speaker 2: have access to the kind of grace that is offered
Speaker 2: in terms of seeing the divine light and so forth,
Speaker 2: and he was thrown out of his monastery. Has he
Speaker 2: had a really wild experience over all that, but he
Speaker 2: ended up being vindicated because all the grace is present
Speaker 2: in the sacraments are there for the potential for everybody
Speaker 2: having that experience.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. All right, let me see this next one here.
Speaker 1: Thanks for the superchat. Let's see, and thank you for
Speaker 1: the super chat. I appreciate it, all right, let's look
Speaker 1: at the inquirer questions here. Question inquirer, can you hold
Speaker 1: to annihilationism in Eachian orthodoxy? And what exactly is the
Speaker 1: doctrine of hell in Easian orthodoxy?
Speaker 2: Annihilationism is not possible because we believe that Christ assumed
Speaker 2: universal human nature in a single divine hypostasis. So what
Speaker 2: that means is that the only basis for everybody being
Speaker 2: resurrected is the death or own resurrection of Christ. So
Speaker 2: all men are going to be resurrected universally, the same
Speaker 2: way that the scope of Adam's fall is universal. So
Speaker 2: first green Is fifteen makes the scope of both universal.
Speaker 2: But that is mean we're all saved, because our own
Speaker 2: individual existential experience of the esk will be contingent upon
Speaker 2: how we recapitulate it or fail to recapitulate the virtues.
Speaker 2: So the river of fire, that is the torment of
Speaker 2: the wicked, is the state that they put themselves in
Speaker 2: to be actually negatively experiencing or ever ill being. As
Speaker 2: sat Maximus says, the same divine energy is the same
Speaker 2: divine fire that purges and deifies the righteous. So the righteous,
Speaker 2: because of thiosis, experience ever well being, and the wicked
Speaker 2: because of their choice of vice experiences ever ill being.
Speaker 2: So there's no possibility in that scheme of annihilationism, because
Speaker 2: everybody has an eternal nature that's given to them through
Speaker 2: the work of Christ. So also I think that helps
Speaker 2: explain the difference between the Orthodox view and the Latin
Speaker 2: view or the typical Protestant view of the escaton.
Speaker 1: Awesome templar five dollars shears. Guys, Hey, this is this
Speaker 1: was an Anglican gentleman that just decided to become Orthodox.
Speaker 1: So he's entering into his Uh, he just became a catechumen. Actually,
Speaker 1: so good to see you man. Hey, j great work
Speaker 1: you're doing. What do you think about the New American
Speaker 1: Orthodox film? It's available free for parishes to screen.
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about it. Do you know about it?
Speaker 2: You can tell me about it. I have no idea.
Speaker 1: If you want to. If you want to clarify, man,
Speaker 1: send a clarification question and or just some some additional contexts.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, do you wanna Do you want to plug
Speaker 1: the conference that's coming up in November?
Speaker 2: Sure? Yeah, it was a number twenty to twenty. First
Speaker 2: is our Orthodox conference in Home Coast. It's a two
Speaker 2: day conference with me, Father Vladimir, my priest Kadanov, father Diagan,
Speaker 2: doctor Narnias met Boalt and Jonah, doctor David Patrick Carey,
Speaker 2: a couple other friends of Father Vladimir's. I think we'll
Speaker 2: also have some smaller vignettes and things that they want
Speaker 2: to touch on. There's a book that's coming out by
Speaker 2: a priest that's a friend of Father Vladimir's that will
Speaker 2: be translated into English, so he'll have a little message there.
Speaker 2: And you can get the tickets at my website or
Speaker 2: on my profile or anybody else's profiles that are involved.
Speaker 2: Two days and yeah, it's gonna be a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: I know you're going to be there, and Christian Mario
Speaker 2: is going to be there, Luigi is going to be there.
Speaker 2: Basically all everybody but Bowser Yoshi, all of the Mario
Speaker 2: world will be there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: They were saying that in that picture that we took together.
Speaker 1: They were like, oh, you're Yoshi. Now, I don't want
Speaker 1: to be Yoshi.
Speaker 2: I was going to say, you don't Bowser Yoshi Warrio,
Speaker 2: like I don't know who you want to you could do,
Speaker 2: like if you put a hat on you could kind
Speaker 2: of be a Warrio character there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well I think there is already like an
Speaker 1: Orthodox Warrio on Twitter.
Speaker 2: Really, you're right, I forgot about that. You could be
Speaker 2: Princess Peach. It's over.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd rather I'd rather delete all of my social
Speaker 1: media than become Peach. All right, let's see here, all right? So, yeah,
Speaker 1: attend that attend that conference if y'all, If y'all are
Speaker 1: in the Florida in Florida, go and attend that conference.
Speaker 1: A lot of people are gonna be there, basically, all
Speaker 1: of all of Ortho Twitter. Basically, it will be the
Speaker 1: place to be, all right, Cookie Destroyer says, who's the
Speaker 1: next Protestant YouTuber to take the Orthop pill in cleeve?
Speaker 1: Have you taken down your non to non church on
Speaker 1: redeem Zoomer's Minecraft server and built an Orthodox one. I
Speaker 1: was never on that thing. I will say this, though
Speaker 1: I was on. I was on his discord server. I
Speaker 1: got banned twice for for debating. So but I like
Speaker 1: I like I like redem Zoomer. He's a he's a
Speaker 1: he's a nice guy.
Speaker 2: Who's neck.
Speaker 1: Would who would be your who would you be your
Speaker 1: bet for the next Protestant tuber.
Speaker 2: I have no idea. Who's to even like open to
Speaker 2: other possibilities like that. There's probably quite a few Anglican
Speaker 2: you know, YouTubers or Lutheran YouTubers that are probably unhappy
Speaker 2: with Protestantism that I'm it's not even aware of. So
Speaker 2: I understand honestly have no idea because I don't I
Speaker 2: mean outside of you and maybe a couple of other people,
Speaker 2: Like I haven't really interacted with a whole lot of
Speaker 2: you know, Adamant Protestant YouTubers. I mean, it's you redeem
Speaker 2: Zoomer like that's it's about the only two that come
Speaker 2: to mind, like within the last year and a half.
Speaker 1: So yeah, maybe I've got I've got some ideas, but
Speaker 1: I don't really want to say those live.
Speaker 2: Okay, there might be somebody you would know about him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's that's that's about it. I mean, I
Speaker 1: I would say I'll say this, I think in the
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm still friends with a lot of
Speaker 1: the Protestant guys, you know, those that those that still
Speaker 1: speak to me after this. Some of some of them
Speaker 1: are like, oh, you're like a different You're you're basically like,
Speaker 1: you know, an alien now or something. Yeah, but uh,
Speaker 1: to the guys that I still I still speak to,
Speaker 1: I think my spending my time in that camp, you
Speaker 1: realize that the ground is a lot shakier and the
Speaker 1: people's confidence in their own positions are a lot shakier
Speaker 1: than they put on online. Which was kind of why
Speaker 1: I filled that space on YouTube, was because a lot
Speaker 1: of these guys won't won't do debates for that specific reason.
Speaker 1: They don't they're not confident enough in their own positions.
Speaker 1: They don't want to have their world view shaken like that.
Speaker 1: So the the guys that are mean.
Speaker 2: Same in the room calt world too, man. I mean,
Speaker 2: I know several Roman Catholics who have kind of confided
Speaker 2: to me that what they're putting forward isn't the real position.
Speaker 2: Like I'm not saying that they don't believe Catholicism, but
Speaker 2: they're a lot less confident versus what they're kind of
Speaker 2: putting forward. But I'm not going to say who that is.
Speaker 1: But yeah, right right, yeah, keep them keep them in
Speaker 1: prayer for sure, hij I'm having trouble with KESSI castidy prayer.
Speaker 1: My mind wanders constantly, any tips.
Speaker 2: So this is something that you should just take up
Speaker 2: with your spiritual father, because that's I have the same difficulty,
Speaker 2: and I usually I think in the Orthodox world, we
Speaker 2: don't really try to get people to practice in that
Speaker 2: way until they're pretty advanced. So I wouldn't worry about
Speaker 2: that right now unless you're very advanced. And if you're
Speaker 2: very advanced, I'm not the person that you should ask about.
Speaker 2: So take that up with your spiritual father. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I think a lot of the things that kind of
Speaker 2: attend that kind of prayer are the things that people
Speaker 2: get all caught up on, right, like bodily posture or
Speaker 2: something like that, And none of that stuff is essential
Speaker 2: to Orthodox prayer, so I wouldn't get too caught up
Speaker 2: in that stuff. But somebody had an interesting point, which
Speaker 2: was that a lot of times people like in the
Speaker 2: middle of the liturgy, like I saw, have a tendency
Speaker 2: to close my eyes. And then I know, because that's
Speaker 2: kind of a Protestant thing when you're praying, like you
Speaker 2: close your eyes, and that's not always wrong, because you know,
Speaker 2: you have in the liturgy value your heads and so forth,
Speaker 2: but it sometimes helps to focus on the icons to
Speaker 2: actually not be distracted because if I close my eyes,
Speaker 2: I start my mind starts wondering. So if you get
Speaker 2: in the habit maybe of not closing your eyes, but
Speaker 2: I mean that's that's up to you and your spiritual father. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know what's interesting, my uh my daughter, she's nine,
Speaker 1: and she's always prayed with her eyes open. So we
Speaker 1: when we started going to the orthox Or, She's unlike,
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, these people pray with their eyes open,
Speaker 1: just like you. She's like, whoa, this is like my church.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm still not even used to it, even
Speaker 2: after being orgone for a while, Like, I'm still like it.
Speaker 2: This is the Protestant mindset, I guess. So, I mean
Speaker 2: I was Roman Catholic, and I guess when I was Catholic,
Speaker 2: I would still you know, well, they have imaginative prayer,
Speaker 2: which when I'm Orthodox, I'm not doing imaginative prayer. But
Speaker 2: your mind does still have a tendency to wander. So
Speaker 2: I definitely feel that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's see here, what is the relationship of culture
Speaker 1: to Orthodoxy. How are cultural expressions and their incumbent industries sanctified, Oh, movies, music,
Speaker 1: et cetera.
Speaker 2: I don't think it differs too much from the attitude
Speaker 2: that most serious Roman Catholics or Protestants have, except that
Speaker 2: I think Orthodoxy is done a better job of maintaining
Speaker 2: the distinction between the sacred and the secular. So, you know,
Speaker 2: like in the Protestant world, you have this idea of, oh,
Speaker 2: we got to come up with like Christian rock and roll.
Speaker 2: This sounds just like Coldplay or just like you two.
Speaker 2: I an Orthodox, you don't really have to do that.
Speaker 2: There's no necessity to water down and kind of push
Speaker 2: the theology into the secular sphere because really there's not
Speaker 2: a secular sphere. I mean, everything is kind of in
Speaker 2: the domain of the kingdom, the basilaeis or whatever. So
Speaker 2: maybe it's less challenging. But I think you know, the
Speaker 2: history of the Orthodox world overlaps with the Latin Church
Speaker 2: of verse thousand years, so you've got a lot of esthetics, artwork,
Speaker 2: et cetera that has to be made within the confines
Speaker 2: of virtue. I think in the Protestant world you have
Speaker 2: this attitude that everything has to be explicitly kind of
Speaker 2: like Jesus, Jesus, Jesus worship service, worship service, And it
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be that way because the virtues themselves
Speaker 2: are kind of necessarily connected to God. So if you
Speaker 2: have a film that's not explicitly Christian, but it's still
Speaker 2: promoting virtue, it's that's fine, that's good. You don't not
Speaker 2: everything has to be explicitly a worship service, because the
Speaker 2: liturgy is the worship service, So you don't have to
Speaker 2: constantly like make everything diluted, like I think it's sort
Speaker 2: of evangelical rock and roll. Does you know think about Dustievsky, right,
Speaker 2: he wrote philosophical, psychological novels that are breathe. They breathe
Speaker 2: the Orthodox wild view, but they're not all about Orthodoxy
Speaker 2: per se. You know, you have some characters or whatever,
Speaker 2: but you know, Crime and Punishment has redemption, it has virtue,
Speaker 2: but it's not it's not in your face necessarily.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean, honestly, that's part of my I
Speaker 1: guess conversion story was reading a brother's chromosome, you know,
Speaker 1: and seeing some of the themes there kind of woven there.
Speaker 1: Shortly after that I did read Crime and Punishment. I
Speaker 1: like the I actually like Crime and Punishment a lot better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like Crime Crime Pashment a lot. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: really good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a it's a. It's a more fluid fluid read.
Speaker 1: I feel like I had to to try to pay
Speaker 1: attention more in Brother's Chromozol. Maybe that's just my brain.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I read Crime and Punishment pretty quick, like I
Speaker 2: had a grad class on it, and I read it
Speaker 2: like within a few days. Yeah, but then I found
Speaker 2: and I'm still not finished Brother's kramatso because it's very
Speaker 2: difficult read. So yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's take a look at this one
Speaker 1: inquirer questions can a male have a female patron saint? Also?
Speaker 1: Can you have more than one patron saint? Thanks God bless.
Speaker 2: I don't even know that, but my first thought would
Speaker 2: be no, I've never even heard of anybody think about that.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't think it's an interesting question.
Speaker 2: And more than one saint. I think in the Serbian
Speaker 2: tradition you have patron saints for families. Uh, but that
Speaker 2: might be unique to the Serbs. But that's the only
Speaker 2: case I've heard of having more than one patron saint. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh, and I was gonna say about that, like making
Speaker 1: the mew, you were talking about making the music kind
Speaker 1: of Jesus or whatever. Well, if I if I don't
Speaker 1: make my gospel rock band, how am I going to
Speaker 1: get the CIA dollars? Man?
Speaker 2: How's it gonna happen? Yeah? Right? Well the other thing too,
Speaker 2: is I forget who said this. Somebody said this, maybe
Speaker 2: at a conference a few years ago. But it's like,
Speaker 2: if you think about it, the if you're in the
Speaker 2: Protestant world, the music, the worship is all Jesus, Jesus Jesus.
Speaker 2: If you're in the Charismatic world, it's holy Spirit, Holy Spirit,
Speaker 2: Holy Spirit. Right, But it's like, why why not just
Speaker 2: be trinitarian? Right? Like, and the Orthodox Liturgy is super
Speaker 2: super trinitarian. So I think those shortcomings kind of come
Speaker 2: through in those points.
Speaker 1: Yeah, nobody says y'all got to do a tag team
Speaker 1: on Mormonism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm open to that. I didn't know. Have you
Speaker 2: spent a good bit of time interacting with the Mormons.
Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't be the guy man. That might be
Speaker 1: more Jim Bob's specialty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jim Bob and I've done a few you know,
Speaker 2: Mormons dreams and whatnot. So, but yeah, anybody who wants to,
Speaker 2: we can do a tag team on Islam or Mormon
Speaker 2: or anything like that. I'm always down for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Mormond.
Speaker 2: It seems to be really popping off lately.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Mormonism debates have been coming back into the
Speaker 1: It seems like apologetics takes a like a cycle. There's
Speaker 1: like a schedule of what gets popular. Every now and
Speaker 1: then Vatican two will pop up, or like it'll be uh,
Speaker 1: you know, oh, now it's papal supremacy. Now we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about this, or oh we're gonna talk about you
Speaker 1: know whatever.
Speaker 2: But even aside from the topics, it seems like the
Speaker 2: Mormons have done a big push, like in terms of
Speaker 2: like ads and propaganda in the last few years to
Speaker 2: kind of really make Mormonism this, you know, topic of discussion,
Speaker 2: I think on purpose.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I can see that. I've seen a lot
Speaker 1: of Again, all the ads always has like a hot chick.
Speaker 2: On front exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Become Mormon. You know, you're gonna get You're gonna get
Speaker 1: a girlfriend finally, you know.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean we had that recent pretty good in
Speaker 2: Hollywood movie with the Hugh Grant Heretic. Did you see Heretic? No?
Speaker 1: I didn't.
Speaker 2: You should watch It's pretty good movie, and that the
Speaker 2: two lead carearacters are you know, Mormon missionaries.
Speaker 1: So that's pretty wild interesting. Yeah, that's weird. I'll have
Speaker 1: to check that out, all right, cap uh cab Bob
Speaker 1: the Great, Can you guys explain the origin of the
Speaker 1: doctrine of Mary's ever virginity and sinless life? Why isn't
Speaker 1: it present in Protestantism?
Speaker 2: It was present in early luther and Calvin Uh, I mean,
Speaker 2: early Protestantism did have it. So I think the further
Speaker 2: you get away from you know, the Magisterial Reformation or
Speaker 2: the Classical Reformation, the more you get into radical Reformation,
Speaker 2: which seems like today's Protestant world and Evangelical world is
Speaker 2: pretty much Radical Reformation dominant, whether it's charismaticism or whether
Speaker 2: it's kind of these you know, anti state tendencies or
Speaker 2: anti Old Testament tendencies of the Campbell Lights.
Speaker 1: Like.
Speaker 2: It seems like Classical Reformation theology is pretty restricted to
Speaker 2: some Presbyterians and Lutherans here and there, and that's about it.
Speaker 2: So the origin of it, I think is more of
Speaker 2: a typological approach. If you read, for example, Ezekiel forty four,
Speaker 2: that temple, that mysterious temple that when I was a Protestant,
Speaker 2: I can never really forget what that's about. But in
Speaker 2: the Orthodox view, we think that's also a type not
Speaker 2: just of the church, but a merit. And so there's
Speaker 2: a specific text that says that the prince exits through
Speaker 2: a door and the door remains shut. It's never opened,
Speaker 2: it's always sealed. So that is the entrance of Messiah,
Speaker 2: the Prince of Daniel nine, into this world, and yet
Speaker 2: the door by which he came remains ever virgin. So
Speaker 2: that's one basis. But also I think being the New
Speaker 2: Eve all the typology of Psalm forty five. I have
Speaker 2: a whole video, by the way, Protestants are interested on
Speaker 2: where I go through all the biblical typology of Mary,
Speaker 2: and although it's not explicitly about of a virginity, I
Speaker 2: think the conclusion logically is that, well, she would have
Speaker 2: been also preserved to be the new Eve.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've done a video that's something along the lines
Speaker 1: of every Reformer held to the perpetual virginity. If you
Speaker 1: want to check that out. I go into detail on that.
Speaker 1: That was when I was a Protestant. People got mad
Speaker 1: at that they were saying. They were saying I was
Speaker 1: a Jesuit spy because I held the perpetual virginities.
Speaker 2: We'll get used to it because you're it's only going
Speaker 2: to increase. Like I've been hearing that crazy stuff for
Speaker 2: a long time, so.
Speaker 1: It's it's hilarious.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 1: I kind of I kind of like that. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I think that's funny.
Speaker 2: Like you'll be Masade, you'll be KGB, you'll be a
Speaker 2: you'll be Jesuit. Like you're working for all of them.
Speaker 1: So yeah, there you go all at once. Last, I'm
Speaker 1: a KGB sorcerer.
Speaker 2: You got me?
Speaker 1: Yeah, there he goes KGB sorcerer. What's funny is the
Speaker 1: guy that said that he did a video after my
Speaker 1: like announcement video where he he took my thumbnail with
Speaker 1: like the big redhead and like stretched out my neck
Speaker 1: and put it on like a cassock. It's actually hilarious.
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, that's actually pretty funny.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember, uh I did. I interviewed Dugan like
Speaker 2: ten years ago and it was just like an hour
Speaker 2: long podcast and I talked about a couple of his books.
Speaker 2: And then ever since then, like they've like all these people,
Speaker 2: a lot of Roman Catholics have insisted that I'm a
Speaker 2: KGB operative. It's still stupid because it's like, it doesn't
Speaker 2: matter how many times I explain that I disagree with
Speaker 2: Dugan's gnosticism. It's like, no, but you interviewed him. So
Speaker 2: the only way you could have interviewed him is if
Speaker 2: you're working with him. Like it's just kind of crazy,
Speaker 2: Like even if I say where I disagree, doesn't mean
Speaker 2: I'm working with him.
Speaker 1: That was like guys were saying, how much did how
Speaker 1: much did.
Speaker 2: Jay pay you to convert?
Speaker 1: I said, I got paid in dugan coin.
Speaker 2: You got you got one full dougan coin, which translations
Speaker 2: to the twenty five bitcoin, So there.
Speaker 1: You go, very nice, all right. How should I speak
Speaker 1: to those who think it's a cult? I think they
Speaker 1: were talking about orthodoxy.
Speaker 2: I mean, one thing I've learned about this kind of
Speaker 2: stuff is how you speak to the person depends upon
Speaker 2: that person. So you know, it really depends on who
Speaker 2: that person is in your life. If you're talking about
Speaker 2: your parents, don't approach them in the same way that
Speaker 2: you would your brother, or you know, your comrades at
Speaker 2: work or whatever. Because people that are your equals, you
Speaker 2: can speak to them in a more forthright, sardonic way.
Speaker 2: If it's your parents, be more respectful, don't debate with them,
Speaker 2: let them see a change in your life. You will
Speaker 2: never convince your parents through argumentation. They're only going to
Speaker 2: be convinced when they see you, first of all, having
Speaker 2: like you know, a solid life, wife, kids, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Then they might listen to you. They're not going to
Speaker 2: listen to you when you're still living at home and
Speaker 2: you don't have a job and you're over here debating theology.
Speaker 2: I know because I did that. I made the mistake
Speaker 2: when I was young, so you know, I would say
Speaker 2: it could be you know, if it's if it's somebody
Speaker 2: who's your equal, you could kind of question them about, well,
Speaker 2: what do you think a cult is? Because if it's
Speaker 2: a broad definition, then any religion could be a cult.
Speaker 2: You could say the papacy's a cult if you have
Speaker 2: to follow the papacy, right, is that a cult? Is
Speaker 2: every religion a cult? Or is it specifically like you
Speaker 2: only have to follow a single leader, which Orthodoxy is
Speaker 2: very decentralized, so it's kind of anti cult.
Speaker 1: I would say, yeah, absolutely. And this is something that
Speaker 1: comes up quite a bit, like how do I ask
Speaker 1: my family, or how do I talk to my family
Speaker 1: or convince them of orthodox or my spouse. That sucks
Speaker 1: when that comes up, because I've gotten a lot of
Speaker 1: I've got a lot of emails, a lot of d
Speaker 1: ms and stuff from Protestants that are talking about, oh,
Speaker 1: I want to become Orthodox or you know, et cetera.
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, first off, you know, go ask a priest.
Speaker 1: I'm just a guy on the internet, or like, you know,
Speaker 1: ask somebody who has been in it for a while.
Speaker 1: But so the stuff that I get a lot will
Speaker 1: be something along the lines of I'm convinced my wife's
Speaker 1: not convinced, or I'm convinced my parents aren't convinced, or like,
Speaker 1: maybe my parents are going to disown me if I
Speaker 1: become Orthodox because they're like jimbab evangelical types. The answer
Speaker 1: and I just posted a video with an author earlier
Speaker 1: today talking about this exact topic. So if you want
Speaker 1: to go look at that, it's kind of like some
Speaker 1: quick run through tips of what you can do if
Speaker 1: you're in any of those situations there, So that might
Speaker 1: be helpful. There, he says, do you hear Ibara telling
Speaker 1: me leaving? I guess Rome would be easy. No, I
Speaker 1: didn't see that.
Speaker 2: I'm assuming that's what our means. No, Lura told you
Speaker 2: that leaving Rome would be easy. I don't know what
Speaker 2: that means, but I mean, it's not hard to leave Rome.
Speaker 2: I did it. Yeah, you just leave like you don't
Speaker 2: have to like send in a letter to the Pope
Speaker 2: and like you know, I want Leo Leo. You need
Speaker 2: to sign off on me like no longer being a
Speaker 2: member anymore. I'm not gonna tie like you just I
Speaker 2: don't care.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Plank some pieces is a recent convert to Orthodoxy.
Speaker 1: You posted a video about this little while ago. Could
Speaker 1: you give me some insight on the contra around depicting
Speaker 1: the Father or ancient of days and what positions should
Speaker 1: we hold on this? Have seen people argue both since
Speaker 1: coming to Orthodoxy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's the best book on this is Volume two
Speaker 2: of the Theology the icon by Loski and Alspensky, And
Speaker 2: there's about three chapters in the In the later part
Speaker 2: of that book, I mean, the first few chapter is
Speaker 2: really good about palam aus and icons and how you
Speaker 2: really can't divorce the energy's doctrine from iconography. Uh, those
Speaker 2: are really strong chapters and there there's actually quite a
Speaker 2: bit of probably apologetic meat that we could get from
Speaker 2: that we haven't even really dived into yet. But after
Speaker 2: that comes several chapters talking about the God the Father issue.
Speaker 2: And although the Moscow icon synodes aren't dogmatic per se,
Speaker 2: they still have a lot of influence and they still
Speaker 2: have a lot of good points, and they do make
Speaker 2: the allowance for you know, the Ancient of Day's icon.
Speaker 2: But even in the Ancient of Day's icon, really it's
Speaker 2: Christ as the only image of God the Father. So
Speaker 2: if you notice that image, Christ has kind of the
Speaker 2: appearance of an older Christ, but that matches with what
Speaker 2: you read in Ezekiel and Revelation one and two, where
Speaker 2: when He appears, he appears as a whiteheaded, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of glistening, shining person. His appearances like you know,
Speaker 2: bronze and gold and all this, So that I think
Speaker 2: is the only via the Moscow Icons in a sort
Speaker 2: of approved image. Now, people have not always followed this,
Speaker 2: or they've not always necessarily even known this. So you
Speaker 2: do have a lot of architects and artists who have
Speaker 2: built churches and they kind of put you know, the
Speaker 2: Roman Catholicish influenced God the Father up there in a
Speaker 2: triangle or something like that. So even though it's technically
Speaker 2: not canonical, I don't think it's the end of the world.
Speaker 2: We don't have to be spergs about it. But ultimately
Speaker 2: it's not really canonical, and ultimately it should probably just
Speaker 2: be the allowance for the ancient of day is maybe
Speaker 2: a couple other examples. And the other reason for this
Speaker 2: is not just to be persnickety and annoying about it.
Speaker 2: It's because if you read that Lawsky Ospenskey book, they
Speaker 2: talk about how the Jesuits it actually designed certain icons
Speaker 2: to use philly oquay, and so they would push those
Speaker 2: icons in Russian areas, especially in places like Kiev, and
Speaker 2: it was actually duping a lot of the peasants to
Speaker 2: adopt not even philly okuad but like really weird theology, right,
Speaker 2: because sometimes it's almost like you have God the Father
Speaker 2: as an old man sitting next to Jesus and then
Speaker 2: they're sending the Holy Spirit. So some of these heterdox
Speaker 2: icons have names, like it was one called the New
Speaker 2: Testament icon or something like that, but they're known sort
Speaker 2: of Jesuit syops that I mean, I'm being serious. If
Speaker 2: you read the book I talk about it to really
Speaker 2: kind of sway them towards Romanism. And Rome never really
Speaker 2: adopted the theology of the Seventh Council. They they believe
Speaker 2: it in name, but all the theology behind it, the
Speaker 2: canon and then the eight forty three triumph of Orthodoxy.
Speaker 2: They don't care anything about that unless they're uniate. But
Speaker 2: who cares what units it?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: So Rome doesn't see icons as bound up with the theology,
Speaker 2: because if they did, they would believe in the energies,
Speaker 2: because the energies are really essential to iconography. But uh, yeah,
Speaker 2: so that's that's uh. I think that because I struggle
Speaker 2: with that issue at one point too, because there are
Speaker 2: some places where you can have, for example, this it's
Speaker 2: the same principle with the Holy Spirit. You can't portray
Speaker 2: the hypostasis of the Holy Spirit because he's never incarnate,
Speaker 2: and we only portray really what's incarnate in the sense
Speaker 2: of the Son. But there are a few instances where
Speaker 2: you have what's called energetic manifestations of the Spirit, and
Speaker 2: that's dove and tongues of fire. Right, that's it. You
Speaker 2: could say there's an ergect manifestation perhaps of the voice
Speaker 2: of the Father, so it's like, you know, this my
Speaker 2: beloved son. So that's obviously an inerject manifestation proper to
Speaker 2: the Father. Even though every action is triadics, still there
Speaker 2: are unique roles in that way. So I think that's
Speaker 2: the solution to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you see you're talking about the Roman Catholics
Speaker 1: not really holding to Nicia too. Yeah, I've noticed that
Speaker 1: quite a bit. I mean, if you were to look
Speaker 1: at there's a guy out there, Kevin since thirty three AD.
Speaker 1: He posted on x not that long ago saying that
Speaker 1: icon veneration was not Apostolic, it was like an innovation
Speaker 1: later on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't believe they concede this to Protestants because
Speaker 2: you know, this is what Ibarro has been arguing for years.
Speaker 2: He would say, my argument against Orthodoxy is that the
Speaker 2: Seventh Council is a development. But apparently Eric didn't read
Speaker 2: the actual Council because it says this is not a development.
Speaker 2: This goes back to the Apostolic period again, sort of
Speaker 2: based on the principle of the notion that matter can
Speaker 2: be you know, sanctified relics or there you've got real presence.
Speaker 2: So that kind of necessarily leads to the iconography that
Speaker 2: comes out of the temple iconography.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, absolutely, I think I think it's a silly
Speaker 1: it's a silly argument. But you said this in one
Speaker 1: of your previous streams. It is kind of like a
Speaker 1: coal to the magisterium, right, like sacrifice the other doctrines
Speaker 1: just to prop up the one. And in this case
Speaker 1: it would be uh doctrinal development, which is a big
Speaker 1: deal for them now, especially since Newman's a doctor now.
Speaker 2: So exactly, and that's exactly what Ruslan and Michael Knowles
Speaker 2: were just chatting about. Right, So this tubby came up
Speaker 2: and Rouselan said, I figured how you phrased it with
Speaker 2: something like I appreciate the romancalolic doctrinal development. I'm like,
Speaker 2: but what's what's to appreciate it? But that's a double
Speaker 2: edged sword. And I can say this as a who
Speaker 2: was a former trad because a lot of the trads
Speaker 2: think and I thought this at one time too, It's like, well,
Speaker 2: the papacy will protect us from the developments because you
Speaker 2: can have this nailed down, solidified statement that's unchanging. Right.
Speaker 2: Doesn't that seem like it would solve a lot of
Speaker 2: these problems of when a new issue arises. But the
Speaker 2: problem is that if the papacy is not true, then
Speaker 2: what happens is you've got this Saint Justin Papovitch said
Speaker 2: a kind of a European humanist institution of man in
Speaker 2: his primary position. And then if the papers he can evolve.
Speaker 2: There's no necessity to it evolving in a traditional way.
Speaker 2: It can evolve in a progressive liberal way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we see that today exactly. All right, what
Speaker 1: are your guys, This is a weird question. What do
Speaker 1: you guys favorite fragrance? Fragrances? So what's your what's your
Speaker 1: cologne choice? They want to they want to cocken nineties.
Speaker 2: I used to love coloonna I wore Ralph Lauren, Polo
Speaker 2: Sport I wore. I remember one time when I was
Speaker 2: like in eighth grade, I went to about my first
Speaker 2: bottle of cologne. It was Dr card Noir, and I
Speaker 2: was at a football game and I was about to
Speaker 2: mac on these chicks and I spilled the whole bottle
Speaker 2: on my pants. So I like the whole stadium like
Speaker 2: cleared out because it was all was it?
Speaker 1: Is it like musky? That?
Speaker 2: Oh, it's like the most musky? Yeah, Card Noir I
Speaker 2: was like the classic like eighties and nineties, like I
Speaker 2: don't know, like like a like a swarthy European pimp
Speaker 2: would wear anyway. But I liked raf Lauren Polo sport
Speaker 2: back in the day. I like the cool water back
Speaker 2: in the nineties. Those are those are popular, but a
Speaker 2: lot of those are toxic. Yeah, I don't really I
Speaker 2: don't really wear those anymore, and I have allergies. So
Speaker 2: I just smell like a dude.
Speaker 1: I use I use a Calvin Klein Shock. That's my
Speaker 1: that's my go to cologne right there, or guess blue
Speaker 1: whatever my wife buys me. That's all. Yeah, I just say,
Speaker 1: look for cologne that's blue. It all just about smells
Speaker 1: the same. It seems like, Yeah, I like the blue smell. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: very the blue flavored colone. How does uh, how does
Speaker 1: Eastern Orthodox view the all I don't even know what
Speaker 1: this is? All of it discourse.
Speaker 2: Oh that's Matthew twenty four and Luke twenty one. Right,
Speaker 2: So I'm glad. You'm glad you asked that because I
Speaker 2: just posted on Twitter one of my old talks about uh,
Speaker 2: pred ad the beasts and all that. So, yeah, most
Speaker 2: of the Eastern Church fathers, whether it's Saint Cyril, Halthanasius,
Speaker 2: Saint John Christism in his commentary on Matthew twenty four.
Speaker 2: We believe in a partial preadorist view is very important
Speaker 2: to making sense of the New Testament, that there was
Speaker 2: a coming in judgment in seventy eight D. That particularly
Speaker 2: Luke twenty one is really clear about this, and it's
Speaker 2: written for a gentle audience, so you can kind of
Speaker 2: see clearly that it's talking about a first century judgment
Speaker 2: upon Israel. And although we don't have like an official
Speaker 2: patristic you know, dogmatic statement on like what the Book
Speaker 2: of Revelation is about, I've never I've never not been
Speaker 2: convinced still of the gentry bonds and you know David
Speaker 2: Chilton Days of Vengeance position that the Book of Revelation
Speaker 2: is in its historical context about seventy Nero is the Beast,
Speaker 2: but there is a future fulfillment that kind of mirrors
Speaker 2: those things too. So you can find a lot of
Speaker 2: those videos on my channel. I don't want to ramble
Speaker 2: too much about into the world, but just well, probably
Speaker 2: the most clear references that in Luke twenty one, Jesus
Speaker 2: says there are some of you standing here who will
Speaker 2: not die. You will see Jerusalem surrounded by enemies. You
Speaker 2: will see it raised to the ground. And he says,
Speaker 2: don't try to flee on the sabbath, or pray that
Speaker 2: it's you don't have to flee on the Sabbath. Well,
Speaker 2: that's not relevant to us post seventy eight D or
Speaker 2: after the Book of Hebrews is written. We're not sitting
Speaker 2: around worrying about traveling on the Sabbath. So it has
Speaker 2: to be relevant to the immediate hearers of Jesus' message.
Speaker 2: And I have a I wrote a grad paper on
Speaker 2: this about seventy a d. And Josephus's eyewitness account of
Speaker 2: the destruction of Jerusalem. So I think that partial preadterism
Speaker 2: is one of percent true men. Most of the Eastern
Speaker 2: fathers agree.
Speaker 1: There was a who's that Protestant guy? The conservative he've
Speaker 1: retweeted your your posts on that.
Speaker 2: I have to Oh, yeah, I'm not super super familiar
Speaker 2: with this guy. Nope. Father Moses kind of asked him,
Speaker 2: challenged him on some things.
Speaker 1: But Joel or whatever, Oh yeah, Joel web that might
Speaker 1: be interesting to have a chat with with him. He's
Speaker 1: kind of like popping off right now.
Speaker 2: I think he did reply a while back somebody said,
Speaker 2: do you want to have a debate or discussion, because
Speaker 2: remember they did that podcast about orthodoxy maybe six months ago,
Speaker 2: and I think somebody asked him and he was like,
Speaker 2: I'm not really confident to debate or he said something
Speaker 2: like that, but yeah, I'm always open. I'm always open
Speaker 2: to chatting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean you guys both agree
Speaker 1: on that, so that might be a good Uh. I
Speaker 1: don't know something interesting. Uh film Lincoln trailer is American
Speaker 1: orthodox film dot com. Okay, cool, thanks for thanks for
Speaker 1: letting me know. Man, I'll have to check that out later.
Speaker 1: I haven't I haven't seen anything about it.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: Lots of people are talking about the Folks publication book
Speaker 1: that spends a long time discussing your article about analogy.
Speaker 1: Any plan on doing a response?
Speaker 2: Lots of people? Yeah, I mean that following. That's a
Speaker 2: guy who started his own publishing out of his own basement,
Speaker 2: and I think he has like a handful of followers.
Speaker 2: So I don't think there's a lot of people, I
Speaker 2: mean can simply address the issues themselves. That Romanites is
Speaker 2: a open nominalist. It's really not possible to have a
Speaker 2: Christological approach where Christ assumes universal human nature. If you're
Speaker 2: a nominalist, how could you believe in universe human nature
Speaker 2: being assumed if you're a radical nominalist. I mean there's
Speaker 2: many other mistakes as well. I think Romanites is a
Speaker 2: he's a controversial, conflicted figure, but I mean that's one
Speaker 2: of the biggest problems. I mean, the Cappadocians use analogia
Speaker 2: all the time, so it would be fundamentally opposed to
Speaker 2: Capitocian theology to say that there is no analogia, and that,
Speaker 2: as Rumani says, all he says, all the sickness of
Speaker 2: religion is based on analogy or analogia. I just think
Speaker 2: that's preposterous.
Speaker 1: All right, let's take a look at this one. A
Speaker 1: lot of Protestants like Gavin Ortland are really leveraging ecclesiological anxiety.
Speaker 1: I guess he calls he calls it acclesial anxiety against inquirers.
Speaker 1: Feels like emotional blackmail. I mean I can kind of
Speaker 1: speak to that, if that's all right.
Speaker 2: Go ahead. I don't know what that means.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, Gavin, Gavin's a friend of mine.
Speaker 1: He was actually one of the He was actually one
Speaker 1: of the only Protestants that were kind of cool after I, uh,
Speaker 1: after I made the announcement. So I don't want to
Speaker 1: be rude to him or anything, but to be fair
Speaker 1: to his brand, his brand is very You have these claims,
Speaker 1: these exclusivity claims are Roman Catholics and Eastian orthodox make right.
Speaker 1: So that causes people anxiety. His brand serves to ease
Speaker 1: that anxiety. They call that ecclesial anxiety. Oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I would I would agree a lot of the
Speaker 1: Protestants do have this anxiety. I was never really one
Speaker 1: of them. The exclusivity claims it was either true or
Speaker 1: it wasn't. You know what I mean, The Orthodoxy was
Speaker 1: ever either true or it wasn't. So it really had
Speaker 1: nothing for me to do with anxiety. But I will
Speaker 1: say one of the ways that I had gotten kind
Speaker 1: of in contact with him for networking was I used
Speaker 1: to run a discord server back in the day called
Speaker 1: the Scripture Alone Discord. It was the largest Protestant discord
Speaker 1: back then. It's probably not anymore, but back then when
Speaker 1: I helped run it, I had reached out to Gavin.
Speaker 1: He had done some events with me, I joined his server,
Speaker 1: and his server was for people with ecclesial anxiety. So
Speaker 1: it was like the whole brand is to kind of
Speaker 1: we're going to present arguments that you can kind of,
Speaker 1: in my opinion looking back at it now, is more like,
Speaker 1: so you can compartmentalize this information because we're gonna cast
Speaker 1: just a little bit of doubt on this particular claim,
Speaker 1: this particular claim just enough to kind of stall your
Speaker 1: decision into moving into one of these traditions, whether it's
Speaker 1: Roman hoolicism or orthox, which is why you'll see in
Speaker 1: the videos. In my opinion, it's always like very minor objections.
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, well here's a very specific, nuanced claim
Speaker 1: about icon veneration. I'm going to attack this very specific argument.
Speaker 1: So that way, if you know objections are brought from
Speaker 1: maybe an earlier date or another icon or whatever, I
Speaker 1: can say, well, that wasn't what I was addressing in
Speaker 1: the video. I'm just addressing this thing to debunk this
Speaker 1: one argument that's causing people anxiety. So that's kind of
Speaker 1: the brand there. But I mean a lot of people
Speaker 1: that's true. That is kind of the motivation for why
Speaker 1: he does what he does, and feels like emotional blackmail.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to speak to intentions. I
Speaker 1: don't think that is his intention. I think he sees
Speaker 1: a lot of people with this anxiety, and from his perspective,
Speaker 1: he's trying to ease it. Whether or not that's you know,
Speaker 1: it is what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, only thing I'll say to that is that one
Speaker 2: thing we do plan to do is to kind of
Speaker 2: resurrect discord. So I kind of handed that off about
Speaker 2: three years ago just because I was too busy. I've
Speaker 2: seen now that there is a kind of a need
Speaker 2: for maybe weekly Q and A because so many people
Speaker 2: are interested in Orthodoxy and a lot of people don't
Speaker 2: have due to their location necessarily like an immediate parish.
Speaker 2: So I think we do need to step up and
Speaker 2: try to offer you know, maybe not full on katechisis
Speaker 2: per se, but like at least answering a lot of
Speaker 2: those kind of basic questions that a lot of people
Speaker 2: are having. So we will be reviving my discord in
Speaker 2: the next week or two. We're going to start doing
Speaker 2: the weekly Q and A.
Speaker 1: So right on I might need to make a discord
Speaker 1: account again. I haven't been on that thing in years.
Speaker 1: Let's see.
Speaker 2: I mean it can be a lot of work, Like
Speaker 2: I mean, you as you know, right, Like yeah, I
Speaker 2: would say from like twenty eighteen to twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: like I was in discord a lot, right, it got
Speaker 2: to be almost too much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that was probably about
Speaker 1: the same same time period, you know that I I
Speaker 1: was active there. You know, I did the I did
Speaker 1: the one. I did a lot of debates on there
Speaker 1: back in the day. That's kind of where I started off.
Speaker 1: And then Redeem Zuomer was like, hey, you need to
Speaker 1: make in a well I guess maybe I haven't been
Speaker 1: on it in like over a year then justly probably
Speaker 1: just about a year, because why I started my YouTube
Speaker 1: was Redeem Zoomer was like, hey, nobody's doing the Protestant
Speaker 1: apologetic stuff. Why don't you go make a YouTube and
Speaker 1: hop in these debates. So I did it maybe six
Speaker 1: months after he told me that, But uh, you know
Speaker 1: that was eventual. That was originally where that was, And
Speaker 1: I told you in a in a conversation we had
Speaker 1: before that. Uh, that Cannon's argument that I gave I
Speaker 1: gave him he used in the debate with Luigi. That
Speaker 1: was where he got that Trullo PiZZ because he was like,
Speaker 1: how do I you know, what do I do here?
Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, try this one out. I'll give you.
Speaker 1: I'll give you a couple a couple of tools. Yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of interesting. All right, let's see, Uh, Jay, Jay,
Speaker 1: how does it feel that you're conversing side by side
Speaker 1: with someone, okay who not even six six months ago
Speaker 1: called you into debate orthodoxy? Do you see fast conversions
Speaker 1: on the horizon?
Speaker 2: I mean it feels great. I'm really happy for Cleve.
Speaker 2: I think I want him to know, as everybody else,
Speaker 2: that is not about winning the debate. I know people
Speaker 2: might think that how could die or say that that's
Speaker 2: so disingen. No, it really isn't about winning some debate
Speaker 2: or winning some arguments. Really, all that matters is was
Speaker 2: true and everybody, at the end of the day is
Speaker 2: bound by what's true. And most of the people, I
Speaker 2: think in our space, people who are out there vocally talking,
Speaker 2: I want to hope that they have the right motives.
Speaker 2: And so I think it's an amazing testament to you know,
Speaker 2: his search for truth and his putting truth first over
Speaker 2: what he wants to be true or what I want
Speaker 2: to be true anybody, and that's that's just how we
Speaker 2: ought to be. So that's great, thank God for that.
Speaker 2: I don't know about how fast, but I mean, I
Speaker 2: don't even I can't even believe, Like from what's happened
Speaker 2: from twenty seventeen till now, this kind of blows me away,
Speaker 2: Like so many churches are tripled in size, they have
Speaker 2: one hundred two hundred CD of humans, and I keep
Speaker 2: hearing that, like they don't even have enough priests to
Speaker 2: deal with people wanting to inquire and be kind of humans.
Speaker 2: So that's why I'm saying, like another reason to kind
Speaker 2: of get the discord going again. But I would guess probably,
Speaker 2: and I will say this, it seems like back in
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen to twenty twenty, the ripe ground for conversion
Speaker 2: was Catholic because I was dealing with a lot of
Speaker 2: Catholics and a lot of trad Cats that were converting.
Speaker 2: But from twenty twenty till now, it seems like it's
Speaker 2: dominated by Protestants converting. So I think we kind of
Speaker 2: got most of the Roman Catholic which is not to
Speaker 2: say that in the next several years there won't be
Speaker 2: more Roman Catholics. It's just that a lot of them
Speaker 2: are so dug in, they're so like just like there's
Speaker 2: there's some hole that you know, the papers he has
Speaker 2: as kind of you know, unique. I guess you could
Speaker 2: say I think the fertile ground now is Protestant in
Speaker 2: my view. But I mean again, I think God's grace
Speaker 2: is going to work with a lot of people. I mean,
Speaker 2: hopefully Tim Gordon will come around one day. I've been
Speaker 2: working on Tim for.
Speaker 1: So long, but it'd be awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think, uh, yeah, I don't know what
Speaker 2: your experience is or what you've noticed, but it seems
Speaker 2: to me that just the last few years there's a
Speaker 2: lot more Protestants are open than Romancolics are. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, I just if I were to go off,
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously my audience was mostly Protestant, but you know,
Speaker 1: all the emails like I've gotten from people who were
Speaker 1: Protestant watching my staff that are now saying, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to become a catechumen, or I've
Speaker 1: started attending Divine Liturgy. They've all been Protestants, And I
Speaker 1: thought I thought those emails would slow down. They have
Speaker 1: it Like I'm still getting them almost every day, so
Speaker 1: people are it's ripe that there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: that are that are interested right now.
Speaker 2: So and Roman Caolic churches are really helping us by
Speaker 2: pushing all the woke shit, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I just got a message today from a
Speaker 1: Roman Catholic said he was becoming Orthodox. So you know,
Speaker 1: I think I think it's both. I think you're right though.
Speaker 1: The Protestant camp right now is experienced a lot, like
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of various losses recently, and
Speaker 1: people are expecting, I mean, really the only viable options
Speaker 1: for people if they want it to be anything other
Speaker 1: than maybe like a non denominational evangelical kind of like
Speaker 1: low church. Guy, what are your options? You look at
Speaker 1: the lcms, you look at Anglicanism, or people really going
Speaker 1: to go the Anglicanism route now after all the stuff
Speaker 1: that's happened in the media. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1: To me, it doesn't seem like a very easy decision
Speaker 1: to make when part of you joining that denomination is
Speaker 1: you having to preface no, we're actually not the gay ones.
Speaker 1: We're not those you know. I mean, you have the
Speaker 1: same problem in Lutheranism. But I mean, look at what
Speaker 1: was just what people were talking about very recently. If
Speaker 1: you're if you're any kind of like I mean, I
Speaker 1: know people don't like the title, but if you're interested
Speaker 1: in like Christian now rationalism or anything like that, they
Speaker 1: posted a whole uh this has been kind of resurrected.
Speaker 1: There's a whole uh confession about their doctrinal values and
Speaker 1: basically it says you can't be a Christian nationalist. It's
Speaker 1: it's condemned.
Speaker 2: So a thing that like James White and people to
Speaker 2: sign on too.
Speaker 1: No, this was this is an older document that's kind
Speaker 1: of resurfaced, but it was one of the foundational documents
Speaker 1: in the l CMS. So like guys like, I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't take this guy seriously. But guys
Speaker 1: like Corey Maler or whatever, they're like, oh, you need
Speaker 1: to be l CMS because we're based you know. It's
Speaker 1: like okay, well.
Speaker 2: But there the their synod is saying you can't be
Speaker 2: a Christian nationalist.
Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, gotcha? All right? Uh do you still listen
Speaker 1: to any Protestant warship? No?
Speaker 2: I mean I might maybe around Christmas time we hear
Speaker 2: like Handell's Messiah and it doesn't bother me, but really
Speaker 2: most of the Protestant stuff ever since. I mean, I
Speaker 2: haven't been Protestant since two thousand and three, so I
Speaker 2: think I've only stepped foot into Protestant church a couple
Speaker 2: of times since two thousand and three. So you got
Speaker 2: to you gotta understand, that's like a world that's like
Speaker 2: twenty two years removed from my life. So now I
Speaker 2: don't I don't recall. I mean maybe every now and
Speaker 2: then I hear like an evangelical like Toby Mack or
Speaker 2: something that you know what I mean, Like when I
Speaker 2: was in the a kid in the nineties, I've listened
Speaker 2: to DC Talk or something like. I think it's funny.
Speaker 2: But no, I don't. I don't listen to any Protestant work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's a big deal. Like I'm not
Speaker 2: knocking you if you do. I just it's just so
Speaker 2: far removed from like, you know, I think the last
Speaker 2: time I was in a Protestant church other than I
Speaker 2: think one went to somebody's wedding back in the two thousands,
Speaker 2: was probably two thousand and three, and I was at
Speaker 2: like a Doug Wilson Herry c Church. So it's been
Speaker 2: since two thousand and three.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never really been a huge fan of evangelical
Speaker 1: worship music to begin with. Now there's like, I mean
Speaker 1: we're kind of joking about the like Christian rock bands
Speaker 1: or whatever, but there is one I actually do like.
Speaker 1: It's called Dogwood. They're actually pretty good. They're like a
Speaker 1: punk war.
Speaker 2: There are a couple of Christian rock bands that I
Speaker 2: could probably still listen to, like I would, I like,
Speaker 2: let me turn this line back on here. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean I always like Skillett. I saw Skullet back in
Speaker 2: the day.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I saw them live.
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, I've seen them live I think twice.
Speaker 1: But yeah, how does Eastern Orthodox approach global missions?
Speaker 2: I mean missions are always handled by the bishops sending
Speaker 2: out missionaries. So you know when you we have a
Speaker 2: friend that just went to a church in Korea and
Speaker 2: even I didn't know there was a Korean Orthodox bishop,
Speaker 2: So I mean usually, you know, prior to the modern era,
Speaker 2: it would be also in Tannem with the state, right,
Speaker 2: so like Zar Nicholas would send you know, missionaries out
Speaker 2: to Alaska or whatever. So if you want more of
Speaker 2: a detailed history of that. Ubi Petris actually made I
Speaker 2: think a three part documentary on the history of Orthodox missions.
Speaker 2: So I highly recommend his three part series. It's really good,
Speaker 2: but it's usually handled like at the bishopric level. I mean,
Speaker 2: America is kind of unique because we're going to have
Speaker 2: this organic and actually genuinely organic kind of interest in
Speaker 2: Orthodoxy in the last few decades. It's really kind of
Speaker 2: kind of coming to a head and kind of exploding
Speaker 2: in the last five years. Yeah, but I would say
Speaker 2: that's outside the norm of history.
Speaker 1: Quick question for Jay can inquire to the Orthodox faith
Speaker 1: prayer that Jesus prayer before they're a catechumen.
Speaker 2: Sure, I mean everything I've ever heard would say absolutely,
Speaker 2: anybody can.
Speaker 1: Can you explain why absolute divine simplicity does not allow
Speaker 1: for Theophanes?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think the way that the Roman Catholics themselves
Speaker 2: define it. They themselves say that the Theophanes have to
Speaker 2: be created in stantiations, iterationss angels. However you want to
Speaker 2: frame it or they want to frame it. And it
Speaker 2: is true that some Roman Catholics want to say, no,
Speaker 2: it's really Christ, it's really Christ, right, but I think
Speaker 2: they're not really on board with the trek that their
Speaker 2: church went down, because the actual theology doesn't say that,
Speaker 2: particularly if you read doctor Bradshaw's article on essence synergy,
Speaker 2: what kind of distinction? The longer version he gets into
Speaker 2: the fourth ladder in Council, which has a definition of
Speaker 2: divine simplicity that you could call in the literature, it's
Speaker 2: called identity thesis. So basically, any predicate of the divinity
Speaker 2: is identical. It's isomorphically identical with the divine essence. So
Speaker 2: if you say divine knowledge, divine mercy, divine justice, they
Speaker 2: are the divine essence. And this becomes even more problematic
Speaker 2: when Roman Catholics want to say that God is pure
Speaker 2: act or act as purists, Well, is that also a
Speaker 2: predicate of the essence? So God's essence is pure act? Well,
Speaker 2: if God is eternally pure act, then you're now in
Speaker 2: these weird ari Resitilian categy glories of does he eternally
Speaker 2: then move? What to be first act means that you're
Speaker 2: always actualizing something else, and that would require an eternal
Speaker 2: world to eternally actualize, and so that's why, for example
Speaker 2: Basil and the Hexameron. He criticizes Aristotle as a bitheist
Speaker 2: he says, Aristotle believes in a diad because you have
Speaker 2: the eternal actualizer and what he actualizes eternally. So that's
Speaker 2: also a problem for the incarnation, because if you really
Speaker 2: canosis Passage of Philippians too clearly, there's a willful self
Speaker 2: limiting that the son did to step in the time
Speaker 2: and space. It's not the Father, it's not the spirit.
Speaker 2: It's one of the hypostases entering into a motive being
Speaker 2: that the other two do not. And if you have
Speaker 2: this really radical metaphysical commitment to an absolute neo platonic simplicity,
Speaker 2: you have to understand, as Dock Bradshaw shows in his works,
Speaker 2: there's not just one model of divine simplicity in the
Speaker 2: Patricia era. The Capodocean model is not the neoplatonic model.
Speaker 2: Origin and first principles, and Platinis and Augustine have the
Speaker 2: same idea of what simplicity has to be. It's not
Speaker 2: the same thing is that what the Cavedocians think simplicity
Speaker 2: has to be. So the Cavedocean model is first and
Speaker 2: foremost concerned with defending the triad. The Western Augustinian or
Speaker 2: Originist model is first and foremost concerned with the metaphysics
Speaker 2: of absolute simplicity and no distinctions. Right, so you can
Speaker 2: see which model, obviously is more trinitarian. It's the cabin
Speaker 2: doocean model. That's what's that. Constantinople One and the Eastern
Speaker 2: Church fathers, as far as I'm aware, none of them
Speaker 2: have the Augustinian speculation that Theophanes could be created things.
Speaker 2: Every Orthodox Church father all the way back to Justin Marner,
Speaker 2: all the way up to Whenever that Theophanes are really
Speaker 2: the logos in time and space. That requires the distinction,
Speaker 2: and it requires this not often talked about idea of mode.
Speaker 2: Mode is very important for theology because it's the way
Speaker 2: a thing is, it's how a thing is, and so
Speaker 2: it's the second person that God had entering into a
Speaker 2: mode of being incarnate that the other two do not. Now,
Speaker 2: think about it, if God is an absolutely simple ball,
Speaker 2: you can't have one of the ball be in a
Speaker 2: mode of being that the other two aren't, because you're
Speaker 2: basically moving in the direction of modalism. And so the
Speaker 2: main problem with absolutely my simplicity, especially if you read
Speaker 2: even the Catholic just go to the cathlic and Psychopedia
Speaker 2: and read the entry on Eunomius.
Speaker 1: It sounds like Aquinas, Yeah, on that same kind of Actually,
Speaker 1: I saw that in the Tim Gordon debate where he
Speaker 1: was saying the uh, Theophanes were created.
Speaker 2: Tim was just expressing the standard Tomas Cathy decision.
Speaker 1: Right, it does. I think you were You were right
Speaker 1: to harp on it a bit though, because that it
Speaker 1: does sound ridiculous outloud. Absolutely, and you you had made
Speaker 1: an argument a while ago that I thought was really
Speaker 1: interesting to think about that essence energy distinction is necessary
Speaker 1: to have any kind of coherent Eucharistic theology, because otherwise
Speaker 1: you're saying what you're eating the essence of God.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is an argument that I noticed reading St.
Speaker 2: Cyril of Alexandria's two Letters to six Census. So they're
Speaker 2: not very long. I recommend everybody read it. You'll notice
Speaker 2: that in those letters Cyril says, clearly we are partaking
Speaker 2: of the deified flesh the god man that deified flesh
Speaker 2: is deified because he communicates his uncreated immortality to it
Speaker 2: to raise it, to deify it. And he says, we
Speaker 2: all know we're not eating or particular of the divine
Speaker 2: usia fusis or essence. Yeah, what's the only other option.
Speaker 2: And by the way, if you read Cyril in many
Speaker 2: other places, he is very clear about the energies. Saint
Speaker 2: Cerril explicitly teaches the essence and interestinction. So we know
Speaker 2: that Cyril is arguing that the uncreated energy gees are
Speaker 2: what deify and permeate and penetrate the Eucharist, because that
Speaker 2: is the deified flesh. And so the principal christology is
Speaker 2: the same for the principle of the Eucharist. That's only
Speaker 2: possible if you have the essenceentary distinction. And in the
Speaker 2: Tomistic or the Roman Catholic scheme, I mean, who knows,
Speaker 2: Like I've never really gotten a good answer. There is
Speaker 2: a really long discussion in uh, who's the who's the
Speaker 2: tomast Lagron Labron, excuse me about this? And he doesn't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2: I mean, why would't we just say what Cyril and
Speaker 2: the fourth councils and the third Council office to say,
Speaker 2: you're eating the defied flesh the gone man. Okay, well,
Speaker 2: deified isn't a creative thing. And if you read Paula
Speaker 2: MOS's debate with the Barlem, the whole debate shifts towards
Speaker 2: what we partake of, what we're participating in. And if
Speaker 2: the argument holds that you're partaking of uncreated raise, uncreated glory,
Speaker 2: then what's in the eu charus can't be just another creature.
Speaker 1: How much? How much time do you have? By the way,
Speaker 1: I didn't ask before we started.
Speaker 2: Let's see what I've got? Some more time?
Speaker 1: Okay, like thirty or an hour?
Speaker 2: Well, what do you How long do you usually go?
Speaker 1: I usually go two hours?
Speaker 2: Okay, how long we've been going?
Speaker 1: Uh, we probably have an hour left if you let's see,
Speaker 1: Uh we did that one. I'm an inquirer of my nearest.
Speaker 1: My nearest parish has pews in an organ deal breaker
Speaker 1: seems like a small thing indicative of a larger attitude
Speaker 1: of modernists. Has an organ?
Speaker 2: I mean it could be. I don't about modernism, except
Speaker 2: that a lot of times those kinds of it sounds
Speaker 2: like a Greek Orthodox church. Like a lot of times
Speaker 2: those churches are more so. I mean, they may be modernists,
Speaker 2: but they a lot of times have like Roman Catholic influence.
Speaker 2: So I would just say, judge it. I'm not saying
Speaker 2: those things don't ma matter, but judge it. More so
Speaker 2: on like, does the priests say heretical stuff?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Wi Fi gospel. Good to see you man, Praise
Speaker 1: God for this collab. God bless you both. Hey, dude,
Speaker 1: become Orthodox. Dude, it's ending an Antiochian parish, but I'm
Speaker 1: thinking about moving given the current EP Should I consider
Speaker 1: a Greek parish? Why or why not?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Again, I wouldn't judge the parishes on the basis
Speaker 2: of what's happening at that level, because again, there's many,
Speaker 2: many great parishes everywhere, So don't worry about the big
Speaker 2: I mean, it matters what's happening at the big geopolitical level,
Speaker 2: but that doesn't matter so much for like your own
Speaker 2: parish unless you begin to notice specific In other words,
Speaker 2: don't judge it on that. Just go and just see
Speaker 2: for yourself. That's that's the main issue. Yeah. We have
Speaker 2: had people though that have left some Greek churches for
Speaker 2: Russian churches eventually, so just be prepared that you might have.
Speaker 1: To, right you. I mean, I can speak about this
Speaker 1: without being too scandalizing. Some of the advice that I
Speaker 1: got was ask if there's if there's a particular scandal
Speaker 1: that you're concerned about. I mean, ask the priest how
Speaker 1: he feels about it without giving your opinion, and then
Speaker 1: that'll basically tell you what you need to know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good way to put.
Speaker 1: Uh, howdy, I'm an inquirer and a jeweler. Would it
Speaker 1: be okay for a non Orthodox to make and produce
Speaker 1: Eastern Orthodox style jewelry?
Speaker 2: Well, if you're an inquirer, it sounds like you're moving
Speaker 2: that direction. But I mean I would I would maybe
Speaker 2: wait till you're you are Orthodox before trying to cash
Speaker 2: in on it. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure. I'm
Speaker 2: just taking a joke, but I mean I think it
Speaker 2: might come off as like grifty if you're like because
Speaker 2: I think there was a dude a while back who, like,
Speaker 2: he wasn't Orthodox, but he started selling Orthodox prayer rugs
Speaker 2: and prayer ropes and it's like, but you're not Orthodox,
Speaker 2: so he's just you know, I mean, I'm not judging
Speaker 2: you forever wins, but you know, maybe just give it
Speaker 2: some time before you do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just become Orthodox, right now, dude, That'll be that
Speaker 1: would be the answer. Can you tell my mother in
Speaker 1: law that pigeon shouldn't have blue hair?
Speaker 2: Yes, mother in law, they do not have blue hair.
Speaker 2: How's that there?
Speaker 1: You go go ahead and click that, man, Jay, can
Speaker 1: you get cleave his own CGI bookshelf?
Speaker 2: Nice?
Speaker 1: Actually I want to move Yeah, but.
Speaker 2: It'll only have comment, It'll only have mango on it.
Speaker 1: That'd be terrible, dude. Yeah, I have I have a
Speaker 1: couple of overflowing bookshelves in the living room. I want
Speaker 1: to move them into this office space. I just got to, like,
Speaker 1: I have a bunch of boxes right behind this desk,
Speaker 1: So I got to move them all out and then
Speaker 1: move the stuff around. So it's coming along. It's coming along, man.
Speaker 1: So eventually I'll have the bookshelves behind me and I
Speaker 1: can look smart and I can like my Scooby Doo
Speaker 1: book and say like.
Speaker 2: They're all cardboard, they're not real books. It's just it's
Speaker 2: not they think it's that's actually just a set piece
Speaker 2: from a movie.
Speaker 1: It's just a bunch of cereal boxes in there. That'd
Speaker 1: be funny. As an ex Baptist, Jay, how are you
Speaker 1: able to get comfortable with the marriology and icon veneration
Speaker 1: of Eastern Orthodoxy? This keeps me from trying Orthodoxy.
Speaker 2: I mean, well I wasn't really I didn't go from
Speaker 2: Baptist to Roman Catholic. I went from Baptist to Calvinists,
Speaker 2: so I had kind of a phases of you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, I think for a lot of Baptists, especially
Speaker 2: when I was a Reform Baptist, he's like James White.
Speaker 2: And then the thing that kind of clicked was Covenant theology,
Speaker 2: and then you get into infant baptism. So once you've
Speaker 2: accepted infant baptism, you're kind of moving in the direction
Speaker 2: of Sacramentoism, even if you don't want to admit it.
Speaker 2: And so I remember the first time that I saw
Speaker 2: a relic when I visited my local Roman Colloy church.
Speaker 2: We had a relic of Saint Jerome and they took
Speaker 2: me in there, and it did weird me out. The
Speaker 2: first time I'd ever seen one. I was like, I
Speaker 2: don't know about this. I mean, but I think over time,
Speaker 2: like you get really comfortable with you know, if you
Speaker 2: you know, go watch the documentary that my buddy Lewis
Speaker 2: made Christian Worshman the Old Testament, because you really see
Speaker 2: the continuity with the way that you know, the ancient
Speaker 2: hebrew people who were the proto Christians, the way that
Speaker 2: they viewed Holy things and objects. I really I just
Speaker 2: came to realize that my Calvinist anti matter, anti image
Speaker 2: position was gnostic. It really wasn't even an ancient Hebrew
Speaker 2: position because they weren't iconoclass. So I guess the more
Speaker 2: that I was around it, the more it kind of
Speaker 2: made sense. I also remember, I mean, I would recommend
Speaker 2: this book even though he's a Roman Catholic, because you
Speaker 2: kind of get the idea that, like if you remarriage
Speaker 2: supper with a lamb by Scott Hahn, I mean, he
Speaker 2: has a good point about preterism at the beginning too.
Speaker 2: The Book of Revelation is a liturgy, and once I
Speaker 2: understood the Book of Revelation as a liturgical service, it's
Speaker 2: full of imagery. It's full of vestiments and elders and
Speaker 2: incense and you know, angels and all this imagery that
Speaker 2: it just made no sense that God's using all this
Speaker 2: imagery but he's against imagery. It's just silly, right.
Speaker 1: Millstash, Hey, fellas, I've been waiting for the both of
Speaker 1: you to speak with each other. There's a couple of
Speaker 1: questions I wanted to ask, but I felt it necessary
Speaker 1: to accompany the questions with my story a conversion is that. Okay,
Speaker 1: he sent me like a couple of things. I saved them.
Speaker 1: But your comments are like broken up into like a
Speaker 1: million pieces. So I'm gonna pull up what I saw.
Speaker 1: There's one one big question here you said, hold on,
Speaker 1: give me one second. Sorry dude, Okay, I'm gonna pull
Speaker 1: up here. I'm gonna pull up the other thing because
Speaker 1: you sent like a million questions in here, I'll pull
Speaker 1: up the one I was. I was raised in a
Speaker 1: Calvary chapel in southern California. Like many others, I joined
Speaker 1: Marine Corps. I joined the Marine Corps and ended up
Speaker 1: falling away from the Lord. I never became an atheist, however,
Speaker 1: so I guess you're agnostic. I met my wife overseas
Speaker 1: in Kazakhstan, so she's Muslim. So my first question as
Speaker 1: a Catechuman, how can I show her Christ? How can
Speaker 1: I show her orthodoxy? Understand it may be detrimental to
Speaker 1: my marriage if I quote unquote debate with her. So
Speaker 1: what do I do?
Speaker 2: Well? I mean, you know, women don't respond to theological
Speaker 2: argumentation the same as dudes, so you might not have
Speaker 2: the most success by kind of arguing, but it can
Speaker 2: be helpful to raise issues that are pretty big, like
Speaker 2: the Islamic dilemma or you know, Mohammed having child brides.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's actually the thing that most Muslims
Speaker 2: leave Islam over, is actually the Mohammed child bride issue.
Speaker 2: When you know, I'm always over here trying to think
Speaker 2: about Allah's attributes and all that. Like, they don't really
Speaker 2: leave Islam because of that kind of stuff. Usually sometimes
Speaker 2: they do, but so you might want to focus on
Speaker 2: kind of those more glaring problems. Fart Hadith's I mean,
Speaker 2: this kind of silly stuff like that, as of Satan farts,
Speaker 2: which he doesn't have gut. He doesn't have a human gut,
Speaker 2: so I don't know how you would fart. But I
Speaker 2: mean it's just kind of like there's these really weird
Speaker 2: things that could probably plant maybe some seeds of doubt.
Speaker 2: But you know, it just depends on whether she's interested
Speaker 2: in that kind of stuff or not. So you might
Speaker 2: want to just kind of invite her to church, get
Speaker 2: her to watch the Icon documentary something like that.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Something that Father John Whiteford said, with women oftentimes it's community.
Speaker 2: So I was gonna say people at church, right, community.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're able. If you know, like people who
Speaker 1: I don't know their wives go to the church you're
Speaker 1: looking into attending, maybe get together with them. Because what
Speaker 1: I did, you know, because from my background, I was
Speaker 1: an associate pastor at a Protestant church. So you know,
Speaker 1: we were super well connected. We had good friends. My
Speaker 1: wife had all their girlfriends there. She was attended women's groups,
Speaker 1: and you know, we're super plugged in. So the idea
Speaker 1: of moving from you know, one place to another one
Speaker 1: she knows nobody is daunting for anyone, you know. So
Speaker 1: I was very I was very lucky. I met up
Speaker 1: with Christian Mario actually, and you know, we got to
Speaker 1: hang out and chat and had lunch after service, you know,
Speaker 1: with him and his girlfriend. So it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: these are like normal people, like, oh I've got friends here,
Speaker 1: you know, Oh cool, I want to gohea and hang
Speaker 1: out with them kind of deals. So that might be
Speaker 1: helpful about.
Speaker 2: Your wife as saying like, how does she respond to
Speaker 2: your orthodox.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean on board now at first
Speaker 1: obviously some pushback for sure, Uh, you know, a couple
Speaker 1: not not for very long though. The way that I'm
Speaker 1: very blessed to have the wife that I have because
Speaker 1: she just kind of trusts me, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like I've I've I've guided us through you know, crazy
Speaker 1: waters in the past, so she just kind of trusts
Speaker 1: my judgment. Uh. But also I think the key is
Speaker 1: I've got a good kind of sense of when not
Speaker 1: to push an issue. So the days she's maybe a
Speaker 1: little more in her feelings or something, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to push the issue. I'm just gonna go do the
Speaker 1: dishes or something.
Speaker 2: No, when I said your transition, I meant your gender transition.
Speaker 2: Oh how does she handle that?
Speaker 1: And I'm just sure that's funny? Uh No, but she's
Speaker 1: uh in all, in all seriousness, now she's us she's
Speaker 1: awesome with that. Let's see, Oh you sent in hold On,
Speaker 1: you sent them something else. Let me get to your
Speaker 1: thing real quick. Oh you were saying, gosh, I can't
Speaker 1: find your other comment. But this guy said his uh,
Speaker 1: his daughter had passed away, so I guess he was saying.
Speaker 1: What I found very comforting was that the Orthodox celebrate
Speaker 1: the Martyr Paris on my birthday, patron saint of unbaptized babies.
Speaker 1: My second question directed at Jay, can I hold on
Speaker 1: to that comfort that my daughter may be in heaven.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean in the Orthoury Church, we don't know
Speaker 2: anybody's destiny, and there's prayers for commending the non orthodox
Speaker 2: to God, so you know, we leave that up to God.
Speaker 1: All right, let me get back up these questions here.
Speaker 1: What's the date for when you'll be on Ruslan show?
Speaker 1: Are you going back on Ruslan show?
Speaker 2: Now that I'm where? I mean, I was on Ruslan's
Speaker 2: show a few months ago. Maybe they didn't know I
Speaker 2: was on there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Could the burning bush be an energetic manifestation of
Speaker 1: the Father?
Speaker 2: I know, I think all the church fathers are in
Speaker 2: the scripture is very clear that that's the Son. You know,
Speaker 2: I think Jesus identifies himself as the one speaking. If
Speaker 2: you read Exos three and then twenty three, the voice
Speaker 2: that's speaking out of the bush is identified as the
Speaker 2: same angel presence in chapter twenty three, and that's where
Speaker 2: God says, I will put my name in this angel
Speaker 2: that will go before you. So it's the same voice
Speaker 2: speaking out of the burning bush. And when I mentioned
Speaker 2: an energetic menifestation proper to the Father, I just referenced
Speaker 2: the case of where you know, the Father says this
Speaker 2: is my beloved son, you know, clearly, that's at the
Speaker 2: Baptism of Christ, at Theophany, that's the Father speaking clearly
Speaker 2: in the tongues of fire. At Pentecost, that's the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2: But we don't have any incarnation of the Father or
Speaker 2: the Holy Spirit. We have these manifestations, which the Icon Council,
Speaker 2: the Moscow Icon councils say are the energetic manifestations proper
Speaker 2: to those persons, but they are not the hypostaces themselves incarnate.
Speaker 2: And really they're just trying to guard against the idea
Speaker 2: that the Roman Catholics were pushing that you could have
Speaker 2: this old man Jesus next to an old man God,
Speaker 2: the Father next to Jesus, and the Holy Spirit kind
Speaker 2: of shooting out between them, which is philly oquay. So
Speaker 2: they're really just trying to guard again, it's that stuff
Speaker 2: with weird kind of you know, and they kind of
Speaker 2: call it pagan too, right, Like God, the Father isn't
Speaker 2: an old man, he didn't become incarnate, he doesn't have
Speaker 2: a body. Jesus says, no one has seen the Father
Speaker 2: at any time, so it's really not proper to have
Speaker 2: that kind of imagery. But I think that pretty clearly. No,
Speaker 2: the all, all of the Theophanic manifestations in the Old Testament,
Speaker 2: even though they're trinitarian, because anytime one person of the
Speaker 2: trinities there the other the other two are as well,
Speaker 2: but they have unique roles and it is not the
Speaker 2: Father's role to be incarnate, hence it is the son.
Speaker 1: Can you quickly define personhood? I can't conceptualize the Holy
Speaker 1: Spirit as a person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Orthodox theology usually with it, whether it's singular
Speaker 2: or polemis or any earlier church fathers. Hypostasis is persona
Speaker 2: or subject or agent, so it refers to the one
Speaker 2: who does the action. So if you think about the
Speaker 2: question of what what refers to the nature, then the
Speaker 2: question of who who refers to the person. So in orthodoxeology,
Speaker 2: the fundamental number one thing is the distinction between nature
Speaker 2: and person. So all Trinitarian theology is based on this
Speaker 2: nature person distinction. We Lossie, My allergies are going crazy
Speaker 2: in Texas, Dude, it's awful. So you've got this thinction
Speaker 2: between nature and person. That's also necessary for human anthropology,
Speaker 2: distinguish between I'm the person, Jay, You're the person, Bob,
Speaker 2: we're unique instantiated individual persons, subjects, or agents. But we
Speaker 2: have the same nature. We both share human nature. So
Speaker 2: nature is human. Nature is universal, but it's instantiated in
Speaker 2: the specific subjects or agents that have that nature. And so,
Speaker 2: but a person is more than just an instance of
Speaker 2: a nature. It's the actual subject, the who, the doer.
Speaker 2: And so in terms of the trend, there are three
Speaker 2: Who's right, there are three subjects or agents with one nature.
Speaker 2: So the Holy Spirit is a person because if you
Speaker 2: read John fourteen fifteen sixteen, you'll notice that he is
Speaker 2: doing the same things that the Father and the Sun
Speaker 2: are doing. That tells you he's a person.
Speaker 1: When you when you talk about something serious and I
Speaker 1: just read the chat and I see something funny, I
Speaker 1: try not to bust out laughing in the middle.
Speaker 2: I know I do the same thing. Dude.
Speaker 1: Why is the channel called antique cleavage?
Speaker 2: I don't know what it's because I got it right here.
Speaker 2: Don't go on a little bit of this right here.
Speaker 2: That's what this is all about.
Speaker 1: This is that's what that's actually what the channel's about.
Speaker 1: This isn't a Q and A.
Speaker 2: It's just now this is I'm actually in the process
Speaker 2: of transitioning. Like I mentioned, earlier, and so here's cleavage
Speaker 2: to antiquity. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Thanks, I got to ask my wife what she thinks
Speaker 1: about your transition.
Speaker 2: Your wife might get guilty, guilty of these double d's
Speaker 2: over here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go, man, Hey, J and Ben, what
Speaker 1: are the best arguments for the invocation of the Saints
Speaker 1: being biblical and not necromancy, idolatry, etc.
Speaker 2: Etc. There's a Protestant dude. What's that guy's name? He
Speaker 2: always calls in. We had some kind of debate a
Speaker 2: while back. He's the Hispanic dude that's always arguing with
Speaker 2: Sam Schuman. I can't remember that guy's name, but we
Speaker 2: ended up having like a really good, like ten or
Speaker 2: fifteen minute discussion on this, and it got clipped. I
Speaker 2: just can't think of that guy's name. But the best
Speaker 2: argument is that I think Revelation five through nine, as
Speaker 2: we said earlier, if you come to that text with
Speaker 2: the understanding that it is kind of a heavenly liturgical
Speaker 2: worship service, you'll come away with the idea that John
Speaker 2: is interacting with and communicating with the saints in heaven,
Speaker 2: the saints in heaven under the altar, the martyrs, et cetera.
Speaker 2: They're praying for and they're praying for also in pregatory
Speaker 2: vengeance on earth. They're praying for the saints on the earth.
Speaker 2: You have angels offering the prayers of the saints on
Speaker 2: earth in you know, as the as as if it
Speaker 2: was incense. And so no, it's not contradictory. In fact,
Speaker 2: some of the Jewish sects believe that there are intercess
Speaker 2: free prayers. The Book of Amos, Amos intercedes for Israel,
Speaker 2: and God listens to Amos's prayer and he says, if
Speaker 2: you had not prayed, Amos, I would have destroyed Israel.
Speaker 2: But you prayed, you interceded. And so the argument is
Speaker 2: just simply, well, if Amos is interceding as a living
Speaker 2: sinful man on earth, then the saints who have been
Speaker 2: purified in heaven praying, how much more effective are their prayers?
Speaker 2: And David in the Psalms as well, speaks to the angels.
Speaker 2: And remember the psalms are liturgical. I think a lot
Speaker 2: of Protestants and when I was just sweat, when I
Speaker 2: was Protestant, I didn't think about these texts as liturgical text.
Speaker 2: That was just foreign to me. I just thought, oh,
Speaker 2: the Bible is this you know Holy guide Book and
Speaker 2: David's psalms are meant to be temple liturgy songs, right,
Speaker 2: and in that context, he's speaking to angels in the liturgy. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I talked about it briefly too in the in the
Speaker 1: video I did with Orthodox Ethos when I was on
Speaker 1: that show. And one of the things that kind of
Speaker 1: convinced me was I had a conversation with an Anglican
Speaker 1: priest we're talking about where we were talking about where
Speaker 1: Protestants and Orthodox and Roman Catholics agree as far as
Speaker 1: intercession of the saints. We're trying to get to like
Speaker 1: the roots the root disagreement, and it's okay, Well, we
Speaker 1: agree that they're alive. The Saints are alive in heaven
Speaker 1: because God has got living, not the dead. They're praying
Speaker 1: for us. That's, you know, Revelation. I believe Revelation eight
Speaker 1: is the prayers of the saints report out so on
Speaker 1: and so forth, so we know they're alive and they're
Speaker 1: praying in heaven. That the contention is that we feel,
Speaker 1: or we felt I guess I felt as a Protestant
Speaker 1: at that time, the disagreement would be that we shouldn't
Speaker 1: ask the saints to pray for us because prayer should
Speaker 1: be directed to God only. The way that I kind
Speaker 1: of got around that and this is like a people
Speaker 1: people misunderstood this when I said this in the in
Speaker 1: the video. This isn't normative. This is kind of a
Speaker 1: loophole if you are on the fence and maybe you
Speaker 1: don't know, like you're you're uncomfortable with it is just
Speaker 1: to get you to try at one time, which is
Speaker 1: what I did. And look at me now, but ask
Speaker 1: God to ask the theotokos to pray for you, Like
Speaker 1: if you're uncomfortable, you could do that. I mean that's
Speaker 1: what the Anglican priest said to me. He was like,
Speaker 1: that's what That's why I asked God to ask the
Speaker 1: theotokos to pray. And I'm thinking about that in the moment.
Speaker 1: I'm like, that sounds kind of dumb. But you know what,
Speaker 1: I couldn't think of anything wrong with that at all.
Speaker 1: Uh So I did. And uh I mean it's kind
Speaker 1: of like a little little gateway there for you to,
Speaker 1: I guess, open yourself up to that practice. Because no
Speaker 1: Protestant could point me out anything wrong with asking God
Speaker 1: did do that. They might say it's silly, right, But
Speaker 1: look at James. The Book of James says that the
Speaker 1: prayers of the righteous avail off much. So why wouldn't
Speaker 1: you want the Mother of God to be interceding on
Speaker 1: your behalf before God?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think Also, let's keep in mind what necromancy
Speaker 2: and all that is. That is you trying to get
Speaker 2: forbidden information, secret information from a spirit that is not
Speaker 2: what's happening in terms of liturgical prayer and asking for
Speaker 2: other people to pray for you. There is no special
Speaker 2: gnosis that the Saint comes and gives you some divination
Speaker 2: or something like that. So it's not necromancy. When they
Speaker 2: ask Jesus, you know, the Pharisees asked, Jesus says, and
Speaker 2: John he says, God is not the God of the dead.
Speaker 2: He's got a living So they live to God, and
Speaker 2: so they are not the dead, they are alive to God.
Speaker 1: I just want to say thanks for the content recently
Speaker 1: found both of you and have been so impressed and grateful. Hey,
Speaker 1: thanks man, appreciate it. Hey guys, big fan for Jay.
Speaker 1: Do you think there are other philosophical arguments for God
Speaker 1: that rank like tag such as contingency argument argument God
Speaker 1: bless you.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think any of them are very good.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can reformulate most of the cloud arguments
Speaker 2: to be a kind of transcendental argument to make them better.
Speaker 2: But the problem is not whether there's causation or whether
Speaker 2: there's t lo's or something like that. It's just that
Speaker 2: depending upon the atheists or the how cunning or smart
Speaker 2: the atheist is that you're talking to, they're going to
Speaker 2: just question the things that the contingency argument assumes. So,
Speaker 2: I mean it might be it might work to argue
Speaker 2: that way with like your coworker or something like that.
Speaker 2: But if you encounter an intelligent atheist professor and you
Speaker 2: try to use a contingency argument, he's going to shoot
Speaker 2: it down right away. So you need be prepared for
Speaker 2: the types of critiques that skeptical atheists professors are going
Speaker 2: to use for those kinds of arguments. Even if they
Speaker 2: work pragmatically to convert a coworker or something like that,
Speaker 2: he's not a sophisticated philosophy dork. I still think we
Speaker 2: should strive to have, you know, the stronger arguments. So no,
Speaker 2: I would not use the contingency argument unless I've reformulated it.
Speaker 2: As a transcendental version of that kind of an argument,
Speaker 2: where like like I like, let's say causation, right, Like,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to make a cosmological argument, but I'll say,
Speaker 2: if you don't have the principle of causation as a presupposition,
Speaker 2: then knowledge and the world is impossible.
Speaker 1: Yeah. We were just using tag today, me, Mario and
Speaker 1: Luigi when an atheist called into Mario's livestream. I was
Speaker 1: sitting there. I was I was multitasking, I was lifting
Speaker 1: weights and and talking to atheists. That's kind of cool
Speaker 1: actually fun fact, my my sister, who was an atheist,
Speaker 1: became a Christian after hearing me run TAG, which I
Speaker 1: learned from your channel. By the way, Jay On her
Speaker 1: now husband, who's her boyfriend at the time. So she
Speaker 1: overheard that argument and I was running tag. I got
Speaker 1: him to get to the point where I was like, dude,
Speaker 1: can you even tell me if the watermelon on the
Speaker 1: table exists through your paradigm? And he's like no, okay.
Speaker 1: MYS was like, all right, this is stupid. I can't
Speaker 1: be an atheist anymore. So it's just kind of to
Speaker 1: point out the ridiculousness of that it is.
Speaker 2: And I mean When you say that, people be like,
Speaker 2: what do you mean is does the watermelon exist? It's
Speaker 2: so ridiculous. It's not because if you read somebody like
Speaker 2: Bertrand Russell, I mean in Scientific Outlook, he admits in
Speaker 2: the first several chapters, he's like, modern science and skepticism
Speaker 2: has gotten us to this point where we can't even
Speaker 2: know or prove that there is an external world. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he says, there is no proof for it. We don't know.
Speaker 2: We just have to act like there is one. You
Speaker 2: can't prove it though. So in other words, the top
Speaker 2: atheist admit that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so did the guy that called in in that livestream.
Speaker 1: He was like, oh yeah, I'm a radical skeptic. I
Speaker 1: don't know anything. Okay, great words the debate.
Speaker 2: Exactly how are we going to use logic to debate
Speaker 2: when you don't know that there is such a thing?
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: You guys should tag team Islam, Jay and Cleeve to
Speaker 1: Antiquity versus Jake the Muscle Metaphysician and Trent Direrty. Trent's
Speaker 1: Trent's Trench is retired. You won't see any more videos
Speaker 1: from Trent, So no Trent Trent Doherty, the Roman Catholic guy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's done. He's not he's not doing any more stuff
Speaker 1: after after the debate that you had, and then I
Speaker 1: debated him shortly after that, he's not coming back. I
Speaker 1: mean unless he changes his mind. But that was the
Speaker 1: last word, was he's done.
Speaker 2: Well. He didn't do too well.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't I don't blame him. Pray for
Speaker 1: that guy, Pray that he becomes Orthodox. There about that
Speaker 1: serious question, if did I get he he wants to
Speaker 1: know if you're willing to debate the true Orthodox guy, nft.
Speaker 2: I've been. They've been pushing that for years. I'm not issued.
Speaker 1: Temple art. My dad went to high school with Mike
Speaker 1: Tate from DC Talk, was friends with those guys before
Speaker 1: and during their blow up. Cool tuning in from Jordanville,
Speaker 1: curious to hear Ben's current take on the Biblical canons
Speaker 1: affirmed at Trulla from y'all's origin. I wasn't talking about
Speaker 1: the Bible canon at the end that debate. We were
Speaker 1: talking about Yeah, so I don't know what you're what
Speaker 1: you mean, I will be doing so for those of
Speaker 1: you that are interested, I will be doing like debunk
Speaker 1: myself streams so I'm gonna go back and pull up
Speaker 1: my my old arguments, and I'll be watching through my
Speaker 1: videos and critiquing my arguments. I'm gonna have I forget
Speaker 1: the name of that Lutheran pastor I've had on my
Speaker 1: show a couple of times, Josh Shuoping, the guy that
Speaker 1: was he was a former Orthodox priest. I had him
Speaker 1: on my show twice, and some of those arguments really
Speaker 1: didn't sit well with me even then, So I was like,
Speaker 1: I think that's probably gonna be the first one I
Speaker 1: go back and debunk, because I get a lot of
Speaker 1: people that will message me and say they were actually
Speaker 1: convinced by some of those and I don't know. For me,
Speaker 1: I think they're like, there's glaring holes in a lot
Speaker 1: of those arguments, so those need to be addressed. First,
Speaker 1: not to brag. I open for skillet at Pillar at
Speaker 1: two fests. Awesome, dude, nice question, Cleeve. If you adopted
Speaker 1: a prayer rule, Jay, what does your prayer rule look like?
Speaker 1: And how often do you confess? Also, what's your Social
Speaker 1: Security number? What's your last one?
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, I'm not going to answer that. Because I
Speaker 2: do have a spiritual father. You can come meet him
Speaker 2: if you come to the conference, but I'm not going
Speaker 2: to tell you all my personal stuff.
Speaker 1: For one, I'm willing to become Orthodox, But what if
Speaker 1: your parents won't allow you to become one and you
Speaker 1: live far from the church.
Speaker 2: Usually priests will counsel you that you can kind of
Speaker 2: privately in an interior way of the Orthodox because you
Speaker 2: are under your parents. And then once you're eighteen, you
Speaker 2: can make your own decision and you can move near
Speaker 2: one or you know, do what you want. So that's
Speaker 2: usually what priest wills say.
Speaker 1: Apostolic Christianity is fake. What does the church say about
Speaker 1: the Church of the East and Rome evangelizing a good
Speaker 1: chunk of the world.
Speaker 2: First, I guess you could say that they prepare the
Speaker 2: way for the Orthodox Church. I mean, we're not going
Speaker 2: to make a blanket condemnation that everybody's automatically damned because
Speaker 2: it was heterodox you know, evangelization. But also we will
Speaker 2: just be honest and forth right about what's very lacking
Speaker 2: and a lot of that catechisis and approach. For example,
Speaker 2: think about you know, Roman Catholics love to tell the numbers,
Speaker 2: the numbers, the numbers, but a lot of those converts
Speaker 2: in Latin and South America. I mean they practice condomble a,
Speaker 2: they practice santaria. The notion of conversion is very very loose.
Speaker 2: It's it's very tied up with the you know, the
Speaker 2: indigenous pagan traditions. And I don't mean picking in a
Speaker 2: baptizing Christianity type of way, but no like actual you know,
Speaker 2: forbidden practices type of stuff. So it's like you can
Speaker 2: say that, yeah, we got all the numbers, but the
Speaker 2: numbers don't matter if people aren't getting good catechises. In fact,
Speaker 2: it might even make it worse. I'm not saying that
Speaker 2: Mexican human sacrifice should should have remained and that the
Speaker 2: Spanish shouldn't have you know, Christianized you know Mexico or whatever.
Speaker 2: But I'm saying when you have bad catechises a lot
Speaker 2: of times that can be even worse than no catequiss
Speaker 2: So you know, there's no easy answers to that. But
Speaker 2: I think this even if you're a Roman Catholic or
Speaker 2: you were an Apostolic Christianity person, I mean, the tables
Speaker 2: could be turned. The same question could be asked, like
Speaker 2: what why why did Rome have a problem with the
Speaker 2: yeast splitting for a thousand years, but now after Vatican
Speaker 2: Two where two lungs of the same church, and rat
Speaker 2: Singer says that the East maintained the faith without the papacy.
Speaker 2: So it's a it's just really kind of a a
Speaker 2: difficult question for anybody.
Speaker 1: M Yeah, I was talking about this with dph on
Speaker 1: his show, and he was he was telling me some
Speaker 1: of the uh, I guess into the world claims have
Speaker 1: to do with the Orthodox the actual Gospel getting out
Speaker 1: to all these nations. So I guess there was some
Speaker 1: saint prophecy that was talking about the Orthodox Gospel has
Speaker 1: to reach all of the nations because of the true Gospel,
Speaker 1: and then then you'll see, h.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could see that being the case. I don't
Speaker 2: have any hard commitments on that. I would probably tend
Speaker 2: towards that position. I've always still favored an optimistic awmill
Speaker 2: or post millennial type position, so I've never I've never
Speaker 2: been like this sort of pessimistic type of mind, but
Speaker 2: that could be the case. I'm also not really super
Speaker 2: deep into the Elder Saint prophet to see stuff. I'm
Speaker 2: not opposed to it, it's just I don't really get
Speaker 2: into that too much.
Speaker 1: Clarification on that super chat there. I thought you had
Speaker 1: made an argument at one point Trulau accepted multiple biblical canons. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I did. I mean it's it does you read the
Speaker 1: Council of Trula, It accepts multiple different regional councils, so
Speaker 1: that wasn't in our debate though.
Speaker 2: I think the canon, though it specified the specification is
Speaker 2: that it's Carthage, and Carthage has basically the same canon
Speaker 2: as what the Roman decision that the Council of Rome
Speaker 2: under Damasis has, so Carthage and around the same time
Speaker 2: as Council Rome around the year four hundred. I think
Speaker 2: it's Trelo Mensche specifically, which Carthage they're referring to. I
Speaker 2: don't remember which one it is. I'll talk there's a
Speaker 2: bunch of Carthage, but the one that's about the canon
Speaker 2: is pretty much the same as the Latin canon. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. He was talking about a video I did a
Speaker 1: while back that was talking about the orth Cannon, and
Speaker 1: I was mentioning that it that exact point, it matches
Speaker 1: the Latin canon, not necessarily what the Orthodox have, but
Speaker 1: you can look at the the Confession of Dycytheus, which
Speaker 1: will clarify as well. I guess the only asterisk there
Speaker 1: would be it doesn't specify the number of Maccabees. It
Speaker 1: just says the Maccabees. So uh, but you can you
Speaker 1: can point to that which which kind of works in
Speaker 1: our favor too, with the with the additional Maccabees and
Speaker 1: the Georgian cannon too. So let's see. Good question, dude.
Speaker 1: But I'll be again. I'll be doing videos going back
Speaker 1: at debunking my old arguments, so stay tuned for that.
Speaker 1: I'm not asking this to be a smart ass. I'm
Speaker 1: an inquirer to Eastern Orthodox and I'm struggling with a
Speaker 1: letter from Ucbius to Constantine's sister. What bothers me? He
Speaker 1: doesn't clarify the difference between the statues he took from
Speaker 1: it took and from icon I don't understand that last
Speaker 1: part of your question, dude.
Speaker 2: I think some of those people will refer to this
Speaker 2: and they think that I mean, I could be wrong.
Speaker 2: Maybe the it's not what he means. But sometimes this
Speaker 2: argument is brought up if I recall as an argument
Speaker 2: against icons, but I think he's talking about like pagan statues,
Speaker 2: and so sometimes iconoclass take those comments where like Origin
Speaker 2: or Eusebius is saying, and we remove the unholy images
Speaker 2: and with this so that but in the context they're
Speaker 2: actually talking about like pagan gods and you know, like statues,
Speaker 2: if heroes being worshiped. They're not actually talking about the
Speaker 2: types of things using the liturgy. But that may not
Speaker 2: be what he's talking about.
Speaker 1: I don't know, Tyler big super chatty, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: I converted last year. I noticed clergy off and highlight
Speaker 1: seminary credentials, yet the fathers and saints emphasized monastic hes,
Speaker 1: hechasm and illumination of the news. A theologist one who
Speaker 1: praise has orthodoxy drifted towards scholasticism today.
Speaker 2: I mean, you could probably lodge that criticism with areas
Speaker 2: of the West, but I don't think it's necessarily wrong
Speaker 2: to have the qualification of the criteria. For example, Saint
Speaker 2: Photius was widely known as the most learned man of Bysantheum.
Speaker 2: I mean, he probably wasn't touting that, But it's also
Speaker 2: part of just the culture today that people list their
Speaker 2: qualifications for speaking on subjects. So I wouldn't necessarily link
Speaker 2: having your PhD and your title or something as necessarily
Speaker 2: meaning that they're not spiritual. I think that would be
Speaker 2: a false either or but I think separate from the titles, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think everybody in the West has been infected with
Speaker 2: enlightenment and scholastic tendencies. Yeah.
Speaker 1: They were just talking about this on I guess the
Speaker 1: Ancient Faith Radio thing. I popped in for like a second.
Speaker 1: I normally not a huge fan or I haven't really
Speaker 1: watched it too much, but they were saying there was
Speaker 1: a crisis with the convert surge and what they were
Speaker 1: thinking about. They were kind of brainstorming solutions to it,
Speaker 1: and they were saying in the in the American context,
Speaker 1: it's very unique because they will force people want to
Speaker 1: become priests, to travel and go to seminary at specific locations,
Speaker 1: a lot them move. So you're saying maybe adopting the
Speaker 1: model that is present already in the East, which is
Speaker 1: like more of an apprenticeship, like you're you're kind of learning. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's what they were talking about on that show.
Speaker 1: I saw it pop back up. That's what I was
Speaker 1: looking at here on my phone here Ortho Christian Orthodox Christianity,
Speaker 1: that news outlet or whatever they were talking about. It's
Speaker 1: like huge crisis Orthodox Church, like, you know, they don't
Speaker 1: have enough priests, so maybe that might be one model
Speaker 1: they moved to. Ye who knows. Question inquirer, why do
Speaker 1: Orthodox give incense to saints and not just God? And
Speaker 1: why is a sceticism like someone in the desert who
Speaker 1: dies in a couple of years considered a positive.
Speaker 2: What the earth one? I would say again, read Revelation
Speaker 2: five or nine, and you'll see the significance of the incense.
Speaker 2: And even though the incense is in front of an
Speaker 2: icon of the saint, the significance is that the saint
Speaker 2: is praying and the prayers are going up to God,
Speaker 2: because that's what's in the Book of Revelation, particularly chapters
Speaker 2: five or nine. But I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: A person who is going to intentionally die in two years.
Speaker 2: Most people are not called to a aramatic, radical ascetic existence.
Speaker 2: Some people are called to that. And you know, you
Speaker 2: have this tradition of the fools for God. So but
Speaker 2: I mean that's again, you know, in the Orthodox world,
Speaker 2: you're not going into this to do I'm going into
Speaker 2: this because I'm going to be the desert ascetic. You're
Speaker 2: going into it with a spiritual father who's going to
Speaker 2: counsel you. And how many people end up being hermits?
Speaker 2: Not many? Okay, so not everyone is called to that
Speaker 2: or nor is that the appropriate thing for them. So
Speaker 2: God will put you in the situation that you need
Speaker 2: to be in at the right time if you obey God,
Speaker 2: so you don't have to worry about Oh, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm joining a cult where they're gonna like brainwash me
Speaker 2: and I'll be dying in a desert in two years.
Speaker 1: Yeah that, yeah, you're thinking of You're thinking of the
Speaker 1: Roman Catholic saints like Saint Catherine of Siana who basically
Speaker 1: starved herself to death, you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: I was talking about this with a body of mine
Speaker 1: and he was saying, the modern like the ones that
Speaker 1: were canonized post Vatican two, are always have the craziest backstories.
Speaker 1: You're saying, they're like ripoffs of Orthodox saints, but like
Speaker 1: full of prelst. It's like that the early life or
Speaker 1: whatever their life story is kind of like was, you know,
Speaker 1: received a vision, was given a foreskin ring or something,
Speaker 1: and then starving stars to death was considered a heretic
Speaker 1: and then guess what they were they're canonized, you know,
Speaker 1: woo because somebody was like a fan of them because
Speaker 1: they were Yeah, it's crazy that my.
Speaker 2: Video on histrionic women's Saints is it's exactly what you're
Speaker 2: talking about. But I think it's very different the Orthodox shirts.
Speaker 2: You don't have this sort of like the asceticism is
Speaker 2: not an end in itself. Right in Roman Catholic world
Speaker 2: penance you're doing these things for penance, so you're trying
Speaker 2: to like pay off the temp world debt for the
Speaker 2: sins through these excruciating things. And you know, they had
Speaker 2: the mistranslation from Jerome that you mortify the body, which
Speaker 2: actually was talking about repentance changing the mind. It's not
Speaker 2: saying you like literally punish yourself as if that sort
Speaker 2: of pays off God. So I think certain things contributed
Speaker 2: to this extreme in the Romancalolic world. A lot of
Speaker 2: that's taking place in the Middle Ages. That's too deep
Speaker 2: to go into right now, But they really just lost
Speaker 2: the goodness of the body. In the Roman Catholic world,
Speaker 2: the wholeness of man, focusing on the intellect, and because
Speaker 2: they don't have the notion of the news. So in
Speaker 2: Orthodoxy there's body, mind, spirit or heart and remo. Catholic
Speaker 2: Church doesn't have that. It just has soul body, and
Speaker 2: the soul is really the intellect.
Speaker 1: How familiar is j with Metropolitan Saba? What are his thoughts?
Speaker 1: I admire what I know, but I don't know much.
Speaker 2: I don't know. People ask me all the time, what
Speaker 2: do you think about Bishop so and so? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Sorry, Yeah, maybe he'll come to the conference where we
Speaker 1: can hang out and get to know. Uh. You speak
Speaker 1: often of the Office of the Keys and how the
Speaker 1: Catholics interpret them as a jurisdiction, preaching, et cetera. What's
Speaker 1: the Catholic source for this?
Speaker 2: I guess I mean that's pretty I mean, off the
Speaker 2: top of my head, I'm not sure, but I don't
Speaker 2: think that's too controversial. If you look up just probably
Speaker 2: the Catholic Encyclopedia or any any standard Roman Catholic theological
Speaker 2: theology manual will tell you that the office of the
Speaker 2: Keys is the those three things.
Speaker 1: It is. It is in the Catholic Encyclopedia. I had
Speaker 1: the same question after your debate, and I looked it up.
Speaker 2: So, I mean, it's something I learned like a long
Speaker 2: time ago, when I was a realman. Catholic, and I
Speaker 2: don't remember the exact sort, but it's pretty easy to
Speaker 2: find topics like that. Yeah, what's up.
Speaker 1: Mario, Thanks for thanks, Thanks for the two bucks man,
Speaker 1: appreciate you. Uh, Alex, he's got a good Orthodox channel there.
Speaker 1: He's an Orthodox lawyer and he does apologetics. Now, Uh,
Speaker 1: Jay is the star of rim Fan in Act seven?
Speaker 1: The modern Star of David. Seems like Saint Stephen accuses
Speaker 1: the Sanhedrin of literally practicing occultism. How is this connected,
Speaker 1: if at all, the demonic influence in geopolitics. Thanks?
Speaker 2: This is a good question. I don't exactly know the
Speaker 2: answer to. I've heard this. Uh yeah, I think it's
Speaker 2: specifically in the septuagen I think the Maserati text doesn't
Speaker 2: say star rem Fan. I don't know if we exactly
Speaker 2: know what the star room Fan is. Uh. It could
Speaker 2: be the six pointed hexagonal, you know star, And there
Speaker 2: could be this sort of you know, tumeltic tradition that
Speaker 2: resurfaces at the time of whenever, you know, the rabbi
Speaker 2: has decided to use that symbol. I honestly, I mean
Speaker 2: familiar with these theories, I just honestly don't know. I
Speaker 2: wouldn't be surprised if it has the same significance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for the people in chat to laugh, but carey
Speaker 1: thirty eight forty nine, So if you want to laugh,
Speaker 1: go look.
Speaker 2: At that for hoodie. So those are awesome.
Speaker 1: Did you see Tim Gordon crash out over annulments on X.
Speaker 2: I did not. In fact, I kind of had to
Speaker 2: not pay attention to I don't want to get too
Speaker 2: triggered and constantly argue with him. So, I mean we
Speaker 2: chat on we chat on d MS and and like
Speaker 2: on cell text more than anything on Twitter, because I
Speaker 2: don't want to get I'll just argue. I'm too spurgy
Speaker 2: about that. I'll just keep arguing. So I just try
Speaker 2: to avoid it. But I don't know what he said.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I try not to argue in text on like
Speaker 1: ever because it's just annoying. I take too much of
Speaker 1: my time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna have to go pretty soon. I've got
Speaker 2: something I gotta get to pretty.
Speaker 1: Quick here, sure, no worry. How much time you got
Speaker 1: like five minutes, A couple minutes, okay, all right, let
Speaker 1: me get to a couple So, no, don't send any
Speaker 1: more super chats. I'm gonna get to a couple that
Speaker 1: are that are good questions.
Speaker 2: Let's see.
Speaker 3: Um, okay, hold on, let's see whatever.
Speaker 1: Prog bull can a liberal be Christian? That's an easy question.
Speaker 2: No, I mean I assume you mean like pro abortion
Speaker 2: and like obviously those things are fundamentally incompatible with basic
Speaker 2: Christian principles.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm almost done with Saint Maximus. Two hundred chapters
Speaker 1: on theology, not well formed on Eastern philosophy.
Speaker 2: Take this phone call. Can you hold on a second?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Let's see if there's anything in here that
Speaker 1: I can answer. Okay, this is this guy's This guy's
Speaker 1: a Luther and he always pops up in my chat.
Speaker 1: He's fun. Dude. Uh Jay, what's your workout regimen? Why
Speaker 1: has been lifting weights but still fat?
Speaker 2: Dude?
Speaker 1: It's over. It's over, man. I gotta, I gotta, I
Speaker 1: gotta enter into my cut season. You know, I got
Speaker 1: the I got the gains. I do have to trim
Speaker 1: down a little bit though. I started intermittent fasting. I
Speaker 1: was doing keto for a while, and you know, I
Speaker 1: did jiu jitsu and stuff for cardio. But uh, I'm
Speaker 1: hoping I'm hoping that intermittent fasting plus keto combo. It's
Speaker 1: gonna really shred down, shred down the uh shred down
Speaker 1: the weight there. But I want to keep I don't
Speaker 1: want to like, I don't want to diet and like
Speaker 1: lose my gains though you know I have like noodle
Speaker 1: alarms or something that'd be anoint Uh. You said arguments
Speaker 1: from the Biblical canon against Protestants aren't convincing to you. Why, Jay,
Speaker 1: do you think Cleaves reasoning is fair? Well, we kind
Speaker 1: of talked about it earlier where I was talking about
Speaker 1: the Now people get upset when I talk about this
Speaker 1: because they're like, oh, no, the canon conundrum converted me.
Speaker 1: So this makes retarded or something. You know, I don't
Speaker 1: think that's the case. If you think it's a good argument,
Speaker 1: go ahead.
Speaker 2: And use it.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying there are holes in the argument that
Speaker 1: you could poke, and I have poked holes in the
Speaker 1: argument when I did debates with Granted he's not the
Speaker 1: best debater, but he's a nice enough guy. What was
Speaker 1: his name, Cameron Riiker, that Catholic guy. If you want
Speaker 1: to go look at some of the arguments I put
Speaker 1: forth on that, it was there. But I mean I
Speaker 1: always held to a two tier view so some people
Speaker 1: get confused and they think the argument is for a
Speaker 1: strict sixty six canon. That wasn't really the argument. The
Speaker 1: argument is for a two tier view and that the
Speaker 1: Roman Catholic modern view is incorrect because they hold them
Speaker 1: all to the same level. They don't have any They
Speaker 1: call them Dutero canonical, but it's because the Deutero canon
Speaker 1: second in acceptance, not because they hold any kind of distinction.
Speaker 1: There a good question. Let's see what else is there?
Speaker 1: What rolls be Christians? No? Uh?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Is that? The is that? The is that the stoning
Speaker 1: the monkey's hidith? Where there is like I saw a
Speaker 1: she monkey committing adultery, so I joined in and stoning
Speaker 1: stoning the she monkey. Yeah, that's funny. I sent that
Speaker 1: to a buddy of mine when he first became a Christian.
Speaker 1: Let's see any other any other ones that I could
Speaker 1: possibly answer? Probably not well, if you guys, I guess
Speaker 1: while we're waiting on Jada comeback, because the rest of
Speaker 1: these questions are for j specifically, If you guys want to, uh,
Speaker 1: please re ask my question when Jada's back. What's your oh?
Speaker 1: Because he left mid Yeah? Sure, no worries, dude, okay, welcome, welcome,
Speaker 1: all right. Uh do you want to do you want
Speaker 1: to do like two more questions and wrap up here?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we can do that. So big day tomorrow, guys.
Speaker 2: No pray for what'll be going on with Gerald from Crowder,
Speaker 2: So he's interested in orthodoxy. We'll be talking about all
Speaker 2: that tomorrow. So I'm just trying to get all that situated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that'll be cool man. Yeah we can. Well, if
Speaker 1: you want to just finish answering this one, we can
Speaker 1: wrap up after that, all right. He says this was
Speaker 1: the Saint Maximus two hundred chapters on theology. Doesn't understand
Speaker 1: the term gnosissism in.
Speaker 2: There, Well, yeah, I mean the a gnostic is just
Speaker 2: one who has knowledge, right, So he's not using it
Speaker 2: in the sense of the heresy of the early Church.
Speaker 2: He's just talking about the person who has true knowledge
Speaker 2: or the saint. That's all he means.
Speaker 1: Absolutely all right. Cool. Well, hey man, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming on the show. This has been awesome.
Speaker 1: You know, I'd love to do something again in the future.
Speaker 1: These are these are super helpful not only for me,
Speaker 1: but also for the inquirers that watch the stream and
Speaker 1: stuff like that is anything, Well, you just plugged the
Speaker 1: one thing coming up, but what else would you like
Speaker 1: to plug before we.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're doing that tomorrow. I don't know when
Speaker 2: they're gonna air it. I don't know if it airs
Speaker 2: the same day it records or if they have a
Speaker 2: delay so that I don't know. But yeah, we'll have
Speaker 2: the conference as you guys know, November twenty twenty. First,
Speaker 2: you can find those links on my wall or my website.
Speaker 2: You can get my books in the shop at Jasonilsons
Speaker 2: dot com. We'll be having events in the future. I'm
Speaker 2: sure you'll be with us. So glad you're on board,
Speaker 2: and glad to look forward to meeting you in a
Speaker 2: few weeks. Man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that'll be awesome. Thanks so much for swinging by,
Speaker 1: and thank you all so much for watching. You'll have
Speaker 1: a good night, all right later