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<v Speaker 1>Hey, what's going on? Welcome to Cleave to Antiquity Today.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm joined by the one, the only, Jayder what's going on? Brother?

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<v Speaker 2>Hey? Do what's up? Glad to be chatting again. We

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<v Speaker 2>had a good zoom call well back, and I'm glad

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<v Speaker 2>to reconnect. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, I've been excited for this one. I think this

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<v Speaker 1>will be cool. So for those that are tuning in,

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<v Speaker 1>kind of what I've been doing lately since I made

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<v Speaker 1>the announcement I'm seeking an enter into the Orthodox Church

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<v Speaker 1>is I've been inviting guests on to do a Q

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<v Speaker 1>and A. So we'll be doing that this live stream.

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<v Speaker 1>So the way this is going to work for y'all,

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<v Speaker 1>if you want to ask a question, put a queue

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<v Speaker 1>in front of your question in the chat. I will

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<v Speaker 1>start it. I'll be pulling them up in the order

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<v Speaker 1>that they're received. Jay. If there's one you don't want

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<v Speaker 1>to mess with, let me know when I'll skip past

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<v Speaker 1>that one. And then also if you want to skip

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<v Speaker 1>the line, you can send in a super chat. I'll

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<v Speaker 1>pull those up first just as a thank you for

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<v Speaker 1>supporting the stream, but go ahead and start sending those in.

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<v Speaker 1>Put a queue in front of your question. If you

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<v Speaker 1>don't put a queue. I'm not going to see it.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not gonna be able to start, So I'll go

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<v Speaker 1>ahead and I'll start diving into this first one. Super chat, Jay,

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<v Speaker 1>unmute dude. All right, let's see here's a question that.

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<v Speaker 2>I could unmute myself.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what does the church teach about regular Orthodox Christians

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<v Speaker 1>having a having spiritual experiences with God like the monks?

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<v Speaker 1>Is that just reserved for monks? No?

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<v Speaker 2>I think if you look at Saint Simmy and the

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<v Speaker 2>New Theologian, the whole story of that is that he

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<v Speaker 2>was combating what was called a form of massallionism, which

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<v Speaker 2>is the idea that really only some tiny spiritual elite

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<v Speaker 2>have access to the kind of grace that is offered

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of seeing the divine light and so forth,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was thrown out of his monastery. Has he

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<v Speaker 2>had a really wild experience over all that, but he

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<v Speaker 2>ended up being vindicated because all the grace is present

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<v Speaker 2>in the sacraments are there for the potential for everybody

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<v Speaker 2>having that experience.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely. All right, let me see this next one here.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for the superchat. Let's see, and thank you for

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<v Speaker 1>the super chat. I appreciate it, all right, let's look

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<v Speaker 1>at the inquirer questions here. Question inquirer, can you hold

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<v Speaker 1>to annihilationism in Eachian orthodoxy? And what exactly is the

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<v Speaker 1>doctrine of hell in Easian orthodoxy?

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<v Speaker 2>Annihilationism is not possible because we believe that Christ assumed

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<v Speaker 2>universal human nature in a single divine hypostasis. So what

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<v Speaker 2>that means is that the only basis for everybody being

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<v Speaker 2>resurrected is the death or own resurrection of Christ. So

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<v Speaker 2>all men are going to be resurrected universally, the same

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<v Speaker 2>way that the scope of Adam's fall is universal. So

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<v Speaker 2>first green Is fifteen makes the scope of both universal.

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<v Speaker 2>But that is mean we're all saved, because our own

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<v Speaker 2>individual existential experience of the esk will be contingent upon

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<v Speaker 2>how we recapitulate it or fail to recapitulate the virtues.

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<v Speaker 2>So the river of fire, that is the torment of

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<v Speaker 2>the wicked, is the state that they put themselves in

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<v Speaker 2>to be actually negatively experiencing or ever ill being. As

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<v Speaker 2>sat Maximus says, the same divine energy is the same

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<v Speaker 2>divine fire that purges and deifies the righteous. So the righteous,

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<v Speaker 2>because of thiosis, experience ever well being, and the wicked

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<v Speaker 2>because of their choice of vice experiences ever ill being.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's no possibility in that scheme of annihilationism, because

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<v Speaker 2>everybody has an eternal nature that's given to them through

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<v Speaker 2>the work of Christ. So also I think that helps

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<v Speaker 2>explain the difference between the Orthodox view and the Latin

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<v Speaker 2>view or the typical Protestant view of the escaton.

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<v Speaker 1>Awesome templar five dollars shears. Guys, Hey, this is this

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<v Speaker 1>was an Anglican gentleman that just decided to become Orthodox.

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<v Speaker 1>So he's entering into his Uh, he just became a catechumen. Actually,

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<v Speaker 1>so good to see you man. Hey, j great work

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<v Speaker 1>you're doing. What do you think about the New American

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<v Speaker 1>Orthodox film? It's available free for parishes to screen.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know anything about it. Do you know about it?

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<v Speaker 2>You can tell me about it. I have no idea.

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<v Speaker 1>If you want to. If you want to clarify, man,

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<v Speaker 1>send a clarification question and or just some some additional contexts.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, do you wanna Do you want to plug

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<v Speaker 1>the conference that's coming up in November?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure? Yeah, it was a number twenty to twenty. First

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<v Speaker 2>is our Orthodox conference in Home Coast. It's a two

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<v Speaker 2>day conference with me, Father Vladimir, my priest Kadanov, father Diagan,

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<v Speaker 2>doctor Narnias met Boalt and Jonah, doctor David Patrick Carey,

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<v Speaker 2>a couple other friends of Father Vladimir's. I think we'll

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<v Speaker 2>also have some smaller vignettes and things that they want

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<v Speaker 2>to touch on. There's a book that's coming out by

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<v Speaker 2>a priest that's a friend of Father Vladimir's that will

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<v Speaker 2>be translated into English, so he'll have a little message there.

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<v Speaker 2>And you can get the tickets at my website or

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<v Speaker 2>on my profile or anybody else's profiles that are involved.

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<v Speaker 2>Two days and yeah, it's gonna be a lot of fun.

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<v Speaker 2>I know you're going to be there, and Christian Mario

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<v Speaker 2>is going to be there, Luigi is going to be there.

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<v Speaker 2>Basically all everybody but Bowser Yoshi, all of the Mario

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<v Speaker 2>world will be there.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there you go.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>They were saying that in that picture that we took together.

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<v Speaker 1>They were like, oh, you're Yoshi. Now, I don't want

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<v Speaker 1>to be Yoshi.

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<v Speaker 2>I was going to say, you don't Bowser Yoshi Warrio,

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<v Speaker 2>like I don't know who you want to you could do,

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<v Speaker 2>like if you put a hat on you could kind

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<v Speaker 2>of be a Warrio character there.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, well I think there is already like an

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<v Speaker 1>Orthodox Warrio on Twitter.

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<v Speaker 2>Really, you're right, I forgot about that. You could be

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<v Speaker 2>Princess Peach. It's over.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'd rather I'd rather delete all of my social

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<v Speaker 1>media than become Peach. All right, let's see here, all right? So, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>attend that attend that conference if y'all, If y'all are

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<v Speaker 1>in the Florida in Florida, go and attend that conference.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of people are gonna be there, basically, all

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<v Speaker 1>of all of Ortho Twitter. Basically, it will be the

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<v Speaker 1>place to be, all right, Cookie Destroyer says, who's the

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<v Speaker 1>next Protestant YouTuber to take the Orthop pill in cleeve?

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<v Speaker 1>Have you taken down your non to non church on

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<v Speaker 1>redeem Zoomer's Minecraft server and built an Orthodox one. I

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<v Speaker 1>was never on that thing. I will say this, though

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<v Speaker 1>I was on. I was on his discord server. I

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<v Speaker 1>got banned twice for for debating. So but I like

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<v Speaker 1>I like I like redem Zoomer. He's a he's a

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<v Speaker 1>he's a nice guy.

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<v Speaker 2>Who's neck.

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<v Speaker 1>Would who would be your who would you be your

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<v Speaker 1>bet for the next Protestant tuber.

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<v Speaker 2>I have no idea. Who's to even like open to

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<v Speaker 2>other possibilities like that. There's probably quite a few Anglican

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<v Speaker 2>you know, YouTubers or Lutheran YouTubers that are probably unhappy

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<v Speaker 2>with Protestantism that I'm it's not even aware of. So

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<v Speaker 2>I understand honestly have no idea because I don't I

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<v Speaker 2>mean outside of you and maybe a couple of other people,

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<v Speaker 2>Like I haven't really interacted with a whole lot of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Adamant Protestant YouTubers. I mean, it's you redeem

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<v Speaker 2>Zoomer like that's it's about the only two that come

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<v Speaker 2>to mind, like within the last year and a half.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, maybe I've got I've got some ideas, but

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<v Speaker 1>I don't really want to say those live.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, there might be somebody you would know about him.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's that's that's that's about it. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 1>I would say I'll say this, I think in the

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I'm I'm still friends with a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>the Protestant guys, you know, those that those that still

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<v Speaker 1>speak to me after this. Some of some of them

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<v Speaker 1>are like, oh, you're like a different You're you're basically like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, an alien now or something. Yeah, but uh,

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<v Speaker 1>to the guys that I still I still speak to,

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<v Speaker 1>I think my spending my time in that camp, you

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<v Speaker 1>realize that the ground is a lot shakier and the

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<v Speaker 1>people's confidence in their own positions are a lot shakier

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<v Speaker 1>than they put on online. Which was kind of why

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<v Speaker 1>I filled that space on YouTube, was because a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of these guys won't won't do debates for that specific reason.

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<v Speaker 1>They don't they're not confident enough in their own positions.

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<v Speaker 1>They don't want to have their world view shaken like that.

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<v Speaker 1>So the the guys that are mean.

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<v Speaker 2>Same in the room calt world too, man. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I know several Roman Catholics who have kind of confided

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<v Speaker 2>to me that what they're putting forward isn't the real position.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I'm not saying that they don't believe Catholicism, but

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<v Speaker 2>they're a lot less confident versus what they're kind of

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<v Speaker 2>putting forward. But I'm not going to say who that is.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, right right, yeah, keep them keep them in

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<v Speaker 1>prayer for sure, hij I'm having trouble with KESSI castidy prayer.

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<v Speaker 1>My mind wanders constantly, any tips.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is something that you should just take up

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<v Speaker 2>with your spiritual father, because that's I have the same difficulty,

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<v Speaker 2>and I usually I think in the Orthodox world, we

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<v Speaker 2>don't really try to get people to practice in that

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<v Speaker 2>way until they're pretty advanced. So I wouldn't worry about

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<v Speaker 2>that right now unless you're very advanced. And if you're

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<v Speaker 2>very advanced, I'm not the person that you should ask about.

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<v Speaker 2>So take that up with your spiritual father. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of the things that kind of

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<v Speaker 2>attend that kind of prayer are the things that people

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<v Speaker 2>get all caught up on, right, like bodily posture or

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<v Speaker 2>something like that, And none of that stuff is essential

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<v Speaker 2>to Orthodox prayer, so I wouldn't get too caught up

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<v Speaker 2>in that stuff. But somebody had an interesting point, which

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<v Speaker 2>was that a lot of times people like in the

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<v Speaker 2>middle of the liturgy, like I saw, have a tendency

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<v Speaker 2>to close my eyes. And then I know, because that's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of a Protestant thing when you're praying, like you

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<v Speaker 2>close your eyes, and that's not always wrong, because you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you have in the liturgy value your heads and so forth,

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<v Speaker 2>but it sometimes helps to focus on the icons to

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<v Speaker 2>actually not be distracted because if I close my eyes,

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<v Speaker 2>I start my mind starts wondering. So if you get

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<v Speaker 2>in the habit maybe of not closing your eyes, but

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that's that's up to you and your spiritual father. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>You know what's interesting, my uh my daughter, she's nine,

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<v Speaker 1>and she's always prayed with her eyes open. So we

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<v Speaker 1>when we started going to the orthox Or, She's unlike,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, hey, these people pray with their eyes open,

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<v Speaker 1>just like you. She's like, whoa, this is like my church.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm still not even used to it, even

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<v Speaker 2>after being orgone for a while, Like, I'm still like it.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the Protestant mindset, I guess. So, I mean

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<v Speaker 2>I was Roman Catholic, and I guess when I was Catholic,

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<v Speaker 2>I would still you know, well, they have imaginative prayer,

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<v Speaker 2>which when I'm Orthodox, I'm not doing imaginative prayer. But

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<v Speaker 2>your mind does still have a tendency to wander. So

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<v Speaker 2>I definitely feel that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, let's see here, what is the relationship of culture

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<v Speaker 1>to Orthodoxy. How are cultural expressions and their incumbent industries sanctified, Oh, movies, music,

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<v Speaker 1>et cetera.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think it differs too much from the attitude

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<v Speaker 2>that most serious Roman Catholics or Protestants have, except that

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<v Speaker 2>I think Orthodoxy is done a better job of maintaining

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<v Speaker 2>the distinction between the sacred and the secular. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like in the Protestant world, you have this idea of, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>we got to come up with like Christian rock and roll.

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<v Speaker 2>This sounds just like Coldplay or just like you two.

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<v Speaker 2>I an Orthodox, you don't really have to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>There's no necessity to water down and kind of push

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<v Speaker 2>the theology into the secular sphere because really there's not

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<v Speaker 2>a secular sphere. I mean, everything is kind of in

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<v Speaker 2>the domain of the kingdom, the basilaeis or whatever. So

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<v Speaker 2>maybe it's less challenging. But I think you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>history of the Orthodox world overlaps with the Latin Church

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<v Speaker 2>of verse thousand years, so you've got a lot of esthetics, artwork,

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<v Speaker 2>et cetera that has to be made within the confines

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<v Speaker 2>of virtue. I think in the Protestant world you have

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<v Speaker 2>this attitude that everything has to be explicitly kind of

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<v Speaker 2>like Jesus, Jesus, Jesus worship service, worship service, And it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't have to be that way because the virtues themselves

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<v Speaker 2>are kind of necessarily connected to God. So if you

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<v Speaker 2>have a film that's not explicitly Christian, but it's still

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<v Speaker 2>promoting virtue, it's that's fine, that's good. You don't not

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<v Speaker 2>everything has to be explicitly a worship service, because the

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<v Speaker 2>liturgy is the worship service, So you don't have to

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<v Speaker 2>constantly like make everything diluted, like I think it's sort

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<v Speaker 2>of evangelical rock and roll. Does you know think about Dustievsky, right,

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<v Speaker 2>he wrote philosophical, psychological novels that are breathe. They breathe

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<v Speaker 2>the Orthodox wild view, but they're not all about Orthodoxy

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<v Speaker 2>per se. You know, you have some characters or whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, Crime and Punishment has redemption, it has virtue,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's not it's not in your face necessarily.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, I mean, honestly, that's part of my I

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<v Speaker 1>guess conversion story was reading a brother's chromosome, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and seeing some of the themes there kind of woven there.

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<v Speaker 1>Shortly after that I did read Crime and Punishment. I

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<v Speaker 1>like the I actually like Crime and Punishment a lot better.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I like Crime Crime Pashment a lot. Yeah, it's

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<v Speaker 2>really good.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a it's a. It's a more fluid fluid read.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like I had to to try to pay

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<v Speaker 1>attention more in Brother's Chromozol. Maybe that's just my brain.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I read Crime and Punishment pretty quick, like I

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<v Speaker 2>had a grad class on it, and I read it

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<v Speaker 2>like within a few days. Yeah, but then I found

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm still not finished Brother's kramatso because it's very

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<v Speaker 2>difficult read. So yeah, I totally agree.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all right, let's take a look at this one

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<v Speaker 1>inquirer questions can a male have a female patron saint? Also?

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<v Speaker 1>Can you have more than one patron saint? Thanks God bless.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even know that, but my first thought would

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<v Speaker 2>be no, I've never even heard of anybody think about that.

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<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't think it's an interesting question.

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<v Speaker 2>And more than one saint. I think in the Serbian

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<v Speaker 2>tradition you have patron saints for families. Uh, but that

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<v Speaker 2>might be unique to the Serbs. But that's the only

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<v Speaker 2>case I've heard of having more than one patron saint. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, and I was gonna say about that, like making

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<v Speaker 1>the mew, you were talking about making the music kind

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<v Speaker 1>of Jesus or whatever. Well, if I if I don't

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<v Speaker 1>make my gospel rock band, how am I going to

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<v Speaker 1>get the CIA dollars? Man?

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<v Speaker 2>How's it gonna happen? Yeah? Right? Well the other thing too,

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<v Speaker 2>is I forget who said this. Somebody said this, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>at a conference a few years ago. But it's like,

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<v Speaker 2>if you think about it, the if you're in the

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<v Speaker 2>Protestant world, the music, the worship is all Jesus, Jesus Jesus.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're in the Charismatic world, it's holy Spirit, Holy Spirit,

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<v Speaker 2>Holy Spirit. Right, But it's like, why why not just

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<v Speaker 2>be trinitarian? Right? Like, and the Orthodox Liturgy is super

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<v Speaker 2>super trinitarian. So I think those shortcomings kind of come

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<v Speaker 2>through in those points.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, nobody says y'all got to do a tag team

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<v Speaker 1>on Mormonism.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm open to that. I didn't know. Have you

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<v Speaker 2>spent a good bit of time interacting with the Mormons.

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<v Speaker 1>I probably wouldn't be the guy man. That might be

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<v Speaker 1>more Jim Bob's specialty.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Jim Bob and I've done a few you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Mormons dreams and whatnot. So, but yeah, anybody who wants to,

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<v Speaker 2>we can do a tag team on Islam or Mormon

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<v Speaker 2>or anything like that. I'm always down for that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, Mormond.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems to be really popping off lately.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the Mormonism debates have been coming back into the

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<v Speaker 1>It seems like apologetics takes a like a cycle. There's

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<v Speaker 1>like a schedule of what gets popular. Every now and

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<v Speaker 1>then Vatican two will pop up, or like it'll be uh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, oh, now it's papal supremacy. Now we're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>talk about this, or oh we're gonna talk about you

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<v Speaker 1>know whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>But even aside from the topics, it seems like the

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<v Speaker 2>Mormons have done a big push, like in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>like ads and propaganda in the last few years to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of really make Mormonism this, you know, topic of discussion,

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<v Speaker 2>I think on purpose.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, I can see that. I've seen a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of Again, all the ads always has like a hot chick.

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<v Speaker 2>On front exactly, yeah, exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Become Mormon. You know, you're gonna get You're gonna get

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<v Speaker 1>a girlfriend finally, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean we had that recent pretty good in

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<v Speaker 2>Hollywood movie with the Hugh Grant Heretic. Did you see Heretic? No?

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't.

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<v Speaker 2>You should watch It's pretty good movie, and that the

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<v Speaker 2>two lead carearacters are you know, Mormon missionaries.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's pretty wild interesting. Yeah, that's weird. I'll have

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<v Speaker 1>to check that out, all right, cap uh cab Bob

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<v Speaker 1>the Great, Can you guys explain the origin of the

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<v Speaker 1>doctrine of Mary's ever virginity and sinless life? Why isn't

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<v Speaker 1>it present in Protestantism?

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<v Speaker 2>It was present in early luther and Calvin Uh, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>early Protestantism did have it. So I think the further

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<v Speaker 2>you get away from you know, the Magisterial Reformation or

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<v Speaker 2>the Classical Reformation, the more you get into radical Reformation,

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<v Speaker 2>which seems like today's Protestant world and Evangelical world is

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<v Speaker 2>pretty much Radical Reformation dominant, whether it's charismaticism or whether

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<v Speaker 2>it's kind of these you know, anti state tendencies or

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<v Speaker 2>anti Old Testament tendencies of the Campbell Lights.

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<v Speaker 1>Like.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems like Classical Reformation theology is pretty restricted to

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<v Speaker 2>some Presbyterians and Lutherans here and there, and that's about it.

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<v Speaker 2>So the origin of it, I think is more of

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<v Speaker 2>a typological approach. If you read, for example, Ezekiel forty four,

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<v Speaker 2>that temple, that mysterious temple that when I was a Protestant,

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<v Speaker 2>I can never really forget what that's about. But in

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<v Speaker 2>the Orthodox view, we think that's also a type not

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<v Speaker 2>just of the church, but a merit. And so there's

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<v Speaker 2>a specific text that says that the prince exits through

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<v Speaker 2>a door and the door remains shut. It's never opened,

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<v Speaker 2>it's always sealed. So that is the entrance of Messiah,

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<v Speaker 2>the Prince of Daniel nine, into this world, and yet

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<v Speaker 2>the door by which he came remains ever virgin. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's one basis. But also I think being the New

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<v Speaker 2>Eve all the typology of Psalm forty five. I have

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<v Speaker 2>a whole video, by the way, Protestants are interested on

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<v Speaker 2>where I go through all the biblical typology of Mary,

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<v Speaker 2>and although it's not explicitly about of a virginity, I

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<v Speaker 2>think the conclusion logically is that, well, she would have

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<v Speaker 2>been also preserved to be the new Eve.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I've done a video that's something along the lines

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<v Speaker 1>of every Reformer held to the perpetual virginity. If you

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<v Speaker 1>want to check that out. I go into detail on that.

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<v Speaker 1>That was when I was a Protestant. People got mad

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<v Speaker 1>at that they were saying. They were saying I was

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<v Speaker 1>a Jesuit spy because I held the perpetual virginities.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll get used to it because you're it's only going

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<v Speaker 2>to increase. Like I've been hearing that crazy stuff for

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<v Speaker 2>a long time, so.

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<v Speaker 1>It's it's hilarious.

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<v Speaker 2>Man.

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<v Speaker 1>I kind of I kind of like that. I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's funny.

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<v Speaker 2>Like you'll be Masade, you'll be KGB, you'll be a

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<v Speaker 2>you'll be Jesuit. Like you're working for all of them.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, there you go all at once. Last, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>a KGB sorcerer.

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<v Speaker 2>You got me?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there he goes KGB sorcerer. What's funny is the

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<v Speaker 1>guy that said that he did a video after my

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<v Speaker 1>like announcement video where he he took my thumbnail with

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<v Speaker 1>like the big redhead and like stretched out my neck

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<v Speaker 1>and put it on like a cassock. It's actually hilarious.

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<v Speaker 1>I was like, Okay, that's actually pretty funny.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I remember, uh I did. I interviewed Dugan like

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<v Speaker 2>ten years ago and it was just like an hour

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<v Speaker 2>long podcast and I talked about a couple of his books.

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<v Speaker 2>And then ever since then, like they've like all these people,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of Roman Catholics have insisted that I'm a

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<v Speaker 2>KGB operative. It's still stupid because it's like, it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>matter how many times I explain that I disagree with

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<v Speaker 2>Dugan's gnosticism. It's like, no, but you interviewed him. So

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<v Speaker 2>the only way you could have interviewed him is if

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<v Speaker 2>you're working with him. Like it's just kind of crazy,

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<v Speaker 2>Like even if I say where I disagree, doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 2>I'm working with him.

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<v Speaker 1>That was like guys were saying, how much did how

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<v Speaker 1>much did.

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<v Speaker 2>Jay pay you to convert?

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<v Speaker 1>I said, I got paid in dugan coin.

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<v Speaker 2>You got you got one full dougan coin, which translations

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<v Speaker 2>to the twenty five bitcoin, So there.

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<v Speaker 1>You go, very nice, all right. How should I speak

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<v Speaker 1>to those who think it's a cult? I think they

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<v Speaker 1>were talking about orthodoxy.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, one thing I've learned about this kind of

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<v Speaker 2>stuff is how you speak to the person depends upon

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<v Speaker 2>that person. So you know, it really depends on who

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<v Speaker 2>that person is in your life. If you're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>your parents, don't approach them in the same way that

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<v Speaker 2>you would your brother, or you know, your comrades at

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<v Speaker 2>work or whatever. Because people that are your equals, you

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00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:15.440
<v Speaker 2>can speak to them in a more forthright, sardonic way.

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<v Speaker 2>If it's your parents, be more respectful, don't debate with them,

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<v Speaker 2>let them see a change in your life. You will

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<v Speaker 2>never convince your parents through argumentation. They're only going to

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<v Speaker 2>be convinced when they see you, first of all, having

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<v Speaker 2>like you know, a solid life, wife, kids, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 2>Then they might listen to you. They're not going to

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<v Speaker 2>listen to you when you're still living at home and

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<v Speaker 2>you don't have a job and you're over here debating theology.

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<v Speaker 2>I know because I did that. I made the mistake

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<v Speaker 2>when I was young, so you know, I would say

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<v Speaker 2>it could be you know, if it's if it's somebody

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<v Speaker 2>who's your equal, you could kind of question them about, well,

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<v Speaker 2>what do you think a cult is? Because if it's

416
00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:58.359
<v Speaker 2>a broad definition, then any religion could be a cult.

417
00:20:58.359 --> 00:21:00.119
<v Speaker 2>You could say the papacy's a cult if you have

418
00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:03.799
<v Speaker 2>to follow the papacy, right, is that a cult? Is

419
00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:07.119
<v Speaker 2>every religion a cult? Or is it specifically like you

420
00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:10.720
<v Speaker 2>only have to follow a single leader, which Orthodoxy is

421
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:13.359
<v Speaker 2>very decentralized, so it's kind of anti cult.

422
00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:18.240
<v Speaker 1>I would say, yeah, absolutely. And this is something that

423
00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:21.079
<v Speaker 1>comes up quite a bit, like how do I ask

424
00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:23.440
<v Speaker 1>my family, or how do I talk to my family

425
00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:26.519
<v Speaker 1>or convince them of orthodox or my spouse. That sucks

426
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:28.079
<v Speaker 1>when that comes up, because I've gotten a lot of

427
00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:31.039
<v Speaker 1>I've got a lot of emails, a lot of d

428
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:33.519
<v Speaker 1>ms and stuff from Protestants that are talking about, oh,

429
00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:35.480
<v Speaker 1>I want to become Orthodox or you know, et cetera.

430
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:37.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, well, first off, you know, go ask a priest.

431
00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:39.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm just a guy on the internet, or like, you know,

432
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:42.599
<v Speaker 1>ask somebody who has been in it for a while.

433
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:44.480
<v Speaker 1>But so the stuff that I get a lot will

434
00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:47.400
<v Speaker 1>be something along the lines of I'm convinced my wife's

435
00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:50.720
<v Speaker 1>not convinced, or I'm convinced my parents aren't convinced, or like,

436
00:21:50.839 --> 00:21:54.079
<v Speaker 1>maybe my parents are going to disown me if I

437
00:21:54.119 --> 00:21:59.480
<v Speaker 1>become Orthodox because they're like jimbab evangelical types. The answer

438
00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:04.480
<v Speaker 1>and I just posted a video with an author earlier

439
00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.599
<v Speaker 1>today talking about this exact topic. So if you want

440
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:10.200
<v Speaker 1>to go look at that, it's kind of like some

441
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.960
<v Speaker 1>quick run through tips of what you can do if

442
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.519
<v Speaker 1>you're in any of those situations there, So that might

443
00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:20.960
<v Speaker 1>be helpful. There, he says, do you hear Ibara telling

444
00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:24.119
<v Speaker 1>me leaving? I guess Rome would be easy. No, I

445
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:24.680
<v Speaker 1>didn't see that.

446
00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:31.279
<v Speaker 2>I'm assuming that's what our means. No, Lura told you

447
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:35.119
<v Speaker 2>that leaving Rome would be easy. I don't know what

448
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:37.079
<v Speaker 2>that means, but I mean, it's not hard to leave Rome.

449
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.599
<v Speaker 2>I did it. Yeah, you just leave like you don't

450
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:42.359
<v Speaker 2>have to like send in a letter to the Pope

451
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:44.839
<v Speaker 2>and like you know, I want Leo Leo. You need

452
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:47.000
<v Speaker 2>to sign off on me like no longer being a

453
00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:49.480
<v Speaker 2>member anymore. I'm not gonna tie like you just I

454
00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:50.000
<v Speaker 2>don't care.

455
00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:56.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Plank some pieces is a recent convert to Orthodoxy.

456
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:58.240
<v Speaker 1>You posted a video about this little while ago. Could

457
00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:01.200
<v Speaker 1>you give me some insight on the contra around depicting

458
00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:04.000
<v Speaker 1>the Father or ancient of days and what positions should

459
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.640
<v Speaker 1>we hold on this? Have seen people argue both since

460
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:08.119
<v Speaker 1>coming to Orthodoxy.

461
00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:11.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's the best book on this is Volume two

462
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:17.440
<v Speaker 2>of the Theology the icon by Loski and Alspensky, And

463
00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:20.680
<v Speaker 2>there's about three chapters in the In the later part

464
00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:22.160
<v Speaker 2>of that book, I mean, the first few chapter is

465
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:24.799
<v Speaker 2>really good about palam aus and icons and how you

466
00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:29.920
<v Speaker 2>really can't divorce the energy's doctrine from iconography. Uh, those

467
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:32.559
<v Speaker 2>are really strong chapters and there there's actually quite a

468
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:35.440
<v Speaker 2>bit of probably apologetic meat that we could get from

469
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:38.519
<v Speaker 2>that we haven't even really dived into yet. But after

470
00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:41.319
<v Speaker 2>that comes several chapters talking about the God the Father issue.

471
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.160
<v Speaker 2>And although the Moscow icon synodes aren't dogmatic per se,

472
00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:47.039
<v Speaker 2>they still have a lot of influence and they still

473
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.480
<v Speaker 2>have a lot of good points, and they do make

474
00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:53.000
<v Speaker 2>the allowance for you know, the Ancient of Day's icon.

475
00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.200
<v Speaker 2>But even in the Ancient of Day's icon, really it's

476
00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:59.359
<v Speaker 2>Christ as the only image of God the Father. So

477
00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:02.079
<v Speaker 2>if you notice that image, Christ has kind of the

478
00:24:02.119 --> 00:24:06.799
<v Speaker 2>appearance of an older Christ, but that matches with what

479
00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:09.359
<v Speaker 2>you read in Ezekiel and Revelation one and two, where

480
00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:12.039
<v Speaker 2>when He appears, he appears as a whiteheaded, you know,

481
00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:16.200
<v Speaker 2>kind of glistening, shining person. His appearances like you know,

482
00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:20.039
<v Speaker 2>bronze and gold and all this, So that I think

483
00:24:20.119 --> 00:24:23.759
<v Speaker 2>is the only via the Moscow Icons in a sort

484
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:27.519
<v Speaker 2>of approved image. Now, people have not always followed this,

485
00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:29.680
<v Speaker 2>or they've not always necessarily even known this. So you

486
00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:31.480
<v Speaker 2>do have a lot of architects and artists who have

487
00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:34.359
<v Speaker 2>built churches and they kind of put you know, the

488
00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:38.079
<v Speaker 2>Roman Catholicish influenced God the Father up there in a

489
00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:41.480
<v Speaker 2>triangle or something like that. So even though it's technically

490
00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:44.160
<v Speaker 2>not canonical, I don't think it's the end of the world.

491
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:47.920
<v Speaker 2>We don't have to be spergs about it. But ultimately

492
00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:51.920
<v Speaker 2>it's not really canonical, and ultimately it should probably just

493
00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:55.039
<v Speaker 2>be the allowance for the ancient of day is maybe

494
00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:57.319
<v Speaker 2>a couple other examples. And the other reason for this

495
00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:00.960
<v Speaker 2>is not just to be persnickety and annoying about it.

496
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:04.880
<v Speaker 2>It's because if you read that Lawsky Ospenskey book, they

497
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:10.400
<v Speaker 2>talk about how the Jesuits it actually designed certain icons

498
00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:14.480
<v Speaker 2>to use philly oquay, and so they would push those

499
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:18.240
<v Speaker 2>icons in Russian areas, especially in places like Kiev, and

500
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:20.519
<v Speaker 2>it was actually duping a lot of the peasants to

501
00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:25.359
<v Speaker 2>adopt not even philly okuad but like really weird theology, right,

502
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:28.920
<v Speaker 2>because sometimes it's almost like you have God the Father

503
00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:33.359
<v Speaker 2>as an old man sitting next to Jesus and then

504
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:35.799
<v Speaker 2>they're sending the Holy Spirit. So some of these heterdox

505
00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:38.039
<v Speaker 2>icons have names, like it was one called the New

506
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:41.079
<v Speaker 2>Testament icon or something like that, but they're known sort

507
00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:44.799
<v Speaker 2>of Jesuit syops that I mean, I'm being serious. If

508
00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:47.160
<v Speaker 2>you read the book I talk about it to really

509
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:51.400
<v Speaker 2>kind of sway them towards Romanism. And Rome never really

510
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:56.480
<v Speaker 2>adopted the theology of the Seventh Council. They they believe

511
00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:59.519
<v Speaker 2>it in name, but all the theology behind it, the

512
00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:02.720
<v Speaker 2>canon and then the eight forty three triumph of Orthodoxy.

513
00:26:02.839 --> 00:26:05.960
<v Speaker 2>They don't care anything about that unless they're uniate. But

514
00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:07.079
<v Speaker 2>who cares what units it?

515
00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:07.400
<v Speaker 1>Right?

516
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:12.880
<v Speaker 2>So Rome doesn't see icons as bound up with the theology,

517
00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:15.240
<v Speaker 2>because if they did, they would believe in the energies,

518
00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:19.440
<v Speaker 2>because the energies are really essential to iconography. But uh, yeah,

519
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:22.799
<v Speaker 2>so that's that's uh. I think that because I struggle

520
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:25.440
<v Speaker 2>with that issue at one point too, because there are

521
00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:28.319
<v Speaker 2>some places where you can have, for example, this it's

522
00:26:28.359 --> 00:26:31.799
<v Speaker 2>the same principle with the Holy Spirit. You can't portray

523
00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:34.759
<v Speaker 2>the hypostasis of the Holy Spirit because he's never incarnate,

524
00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:38.400
<v Speaker 2>and we only portray really what's incarnate in the sense

525
00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:41.720
<v Speaker 2>of the Son. But there are a few instances where

526
00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:45.160
<v Speaker 2>you have what's called energetic manifestations of the Spirit, and

527
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:50.960
<v Speaker 2>that's dove and tongues of fire. Right, that's it. You

528
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:53.640
<v Speaker 2>could say there's an ergect manifestation perhaps of the voice

529
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:55.240
<v Speaker 2>of the Father, so it's like, you know, this my

530
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:58.920
<v Speaker 2>beloved son. So that's obviously an inerject manifestation proper to

531
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:03.599
<v Speaker 2>the Father. Even though every action is triadics, still there

532
00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:06.240
<v Speaker 2>are unique roles in that way. So I think that's

533
00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:07.000
<v Speaker 2>the solution to that.

534
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:11.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, do you see you're talking about the Roman Catholics

535
00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:13.759
<v Speaker 1>not really holding to Nicia too. Yeah, I've noticed that

536
00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:15.400
<v Speaker 1>quite a bit. I mean, if you were to look

537
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:18.720
<v Speaker 1>at there's a guy out there, Kevin since thirty three AD.

538
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:22.720
<v Speaker 1>He posted on x not that long ago saying that

539
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:26.880
<v Speaker 1>icon veneration was not Apostolic, it was like an innovation

540
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:27.480
<v Speaker 1>later on.

541
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:30.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I can't believe they concede this to Protestants because

542
00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:32.839
<v Speaker 2>you know, this is what Ibarro has been arguing for years.

543
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:36.359
<v Speaker 2>He would say, my argument against Orthodoxy is that the

544
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:40.079
<v Speaker 2>Seventh Council is a development. But apparently Eric didn't read

545
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:43.160
<v Speaker 2>the actual Council because it says this is not a development.

546
00:27:43.559 --> 00:27:46.400
<v Speaker 2>This goes back to the Apostolic period again, sort of

547
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:50.079
<v Speaker 2>based on the principle of the notion that matter can

548
00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:53.480
<v Speaker 2>be you know, sanctified relics or there you've got real presence.

549
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:57.039
<v Speaker 2>So that kind of necessarily leads to the iconography that

550
00:27:57.079 --> 00:28:00.359
<v Speaker 2>comes out of the temple iconography.

551
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:03.839
<v Speaker 1>Right, yeah, absolutely, I think I think it's a silly

552
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:06.200
<v Speaker 1>it's a silly argument. But you said this in one

553
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:08.640
<v Speaker 1>of your previous streams. It is kind of like a

554
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:12.240
<v Speaker 1>coal to the magisterium, right, like sacrifice the other doctrines

555
00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:14.359
<v Speaker 1>just to prop up the one. And in this case

556
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:16.880
<v Speaker 1>it would be uh doctrinal development, which is a big

557
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:19.400
<v Speaker 1>deal for them now, especially since Newman's a doctor now.

558
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:23.599
<v Speaker 2>So exactly, and that's exactly what Ruslan and Michael Knowles

559
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:25.720
<v Speaker 2>were just chatting about. Right, So this tubby came up

560
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:27.799
<v Speaker 2>and Rouselan said, I figured how you phrased it with

561
00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:30.960
<v Speaker 2>something like I appreciate the romancalolic doctrinal development. I'm like,

562
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:34.079
<v Speaker 2>but what's what's to appreciate it? But that's a double

563
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:35.839
<v Speaker 2>edged sword. And I can say this as a who

564
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:39.559
<v Speaker 2>was a former trad because a lot of the trads

565
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:41.839
<v Speaker 2>think and I thought this at one time too, It's like, well,

566
00:28:42.039 --> 00:28:46.039
<v Speaker 2>the papacy will protect us from the developments because you

567
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:51.160
<v Speaker 2>can have this nailed down, solidified statement that's unchanging. Right.

568
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:52.799
<v Speaker 2>Doesn't that seem like it would solve a lot of

569
00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:55.960
<v Speaker 2>these problems of when a new issue arises. But the

570
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:58.599
<v Speaker 2>problem is that if the papacy is not true, then

571
00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:01.240
<v Speaker 2>what happens is you've got this Saint Justin Papovitch said

572
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:05.079
<v Speaker 2>a kind of a European humanist institution of man in

573
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:09.680
<v Speaker 2>his primary position. And then if the papers he can evolve.

574
00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:14.599
<v Speaker 2>There's no necessity to it evolving in a traditional way.

575
00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:18.079
<v Speaker 2>It can evolve in a progressive liberal way.

576
00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:22.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and we see that today exactly. All right, what

577
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:24.480
<v Speaker 1>are your guys, This is a weird question. What do

578
00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:27.960
<v Speaker 1>you guys favorite fragrance? Fragrances? So what's your what's your

579
00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:31.200
<v Speaker 1>cologne choice? They want to they want to cocken nineties.

580
00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:34.200
<v Speaker 2>I used to love coloonna I wore Ralph Lauren, Polo

581
00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:36.920
<v Speaker 2>Sport I wore. I remember one time when I was

582
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:39.400
<v Speaker 2>like in eighth grade, I went to about my first

583
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:42.359
<v Speaker 2>bottle of cologne. It was Dr card Noir, and I

584
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:43.920
<v Speaker 2>was at a football game and I was about to

585
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:46.119
<v Speaker 2>mac on these chicks and I spilled the whole bottle

586
00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:48.920
<v Speaker 2>on my pants. So I like the whole stadium like

587
00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:51.200
<v Speaker 2>cleared out because it was all was it?

588
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:52.599
<v Speaker 1>Is it like musky? That?

589
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's like the most musky? Yeah, Card Noir I

590
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:59.440
<v Speaker 2>was like the classic like eighties and nineties, like I

591
00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:02.799
<v Speaker 2>don't know, like like a like a swarthy European pimp

592
00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:08.799
<v Speaker 2>would wear anyway. But I liked raf Lauren Polo sport

593
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:11.079
<v Speaker 2>back in the day. I like the cool water back

594
00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:13.359
<v Speaker 2>in the nineties. Those are those are popular, but a

595
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:15.680
<v Speaker 2>lot of those are toxic. Yeah, I don't really I

596
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:18.559
<v Speaker 2>don't really wear those anymore, and I have allergies. So

597
00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:20.160
<v Speaker 2>I just smell like a dude.

598
00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:25.000
<v Speaker 1>I use I use a Calvin Klein Shock. That's my

599
00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:28.839
<v Speaker 1>that's my go to cologne right there, or guess blue

600
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:33.079
<v Speaker 1>whatever my wife buys me. That's all. Yeah, I just say,

601
00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:35.799
<v Speaker 1>look for cologne that's blue. It all just about smells

602
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:39.319
<v Speaker 1>the same. It seems like, Yeah, I like the blue smell. Yeah, exactly,

603
00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:46.000
<v Speaker 1>very the blue flavored colone. How does uh, how does

604
00:30:46.039 --> 00:30:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Eastern Orthodox view the all I don't even know what

605
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:50.119
<v Speaker 1>this is? All of it discourse.

606
00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:53.799
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's Matthew twenty four and Luke twenty one. Right,

607
00:30:53.880 --> 00:30:56.160
<v Speaker 2>So I'm glad. You'm glad you asked that because I

608
00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:59.519
<v Speaker 2>just posted on Twitter one of my old talks about uh,

609
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:04.720
<v Speaker 2>pred ad the beasts and all that. So, yeah, most

610
00:31:04.759 --> 00:31:10.759
<v Speaker 2>of the Eastern Church fathers, whether it's Saint Cyril, Halthanasius,

611
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:13.839
<v Speaker 2>Saint John Christism in his commentary on Matthew twenty four.

612
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:16.400
<v Speaker 2>We believe in a partial preadorist view is very important

613
00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:18.880
<v Speaker 2>to making sense of the New Testament, that there was

614
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:23.960
<v Speaker 2>a coming in judgment in seventy eight D. That particularly

615
00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:27.000
<v Speaker 2>Luke twenty one is really clear about this, and it's

616
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.359
<v Speaker 2>written for a gentle audience, so you can kind of

617
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:34.440
<v Speaker 2>see clearly that it's talking about a first century judgment

618
00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:39.519
<v Speaker 2>upon Israel. And although we don't have like an official

619
00:31:39.559 --> 00:31:44.400
<v Speaker 2>patristic you know, dogmatic statement on like what the Book

620
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:48.640
<v Speaker 2>of Revelation is about, I've never I've never not been

621
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:55.079
<v Speaker 2>convinced still of the gentry bonds and you know David

622
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:58.039
<v Speaker 2>Chilton Days of Vengeance position that the Book of Revelation

623
00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:02.839
<v Speaker 2>is in its historical context about seventy Nero is the Beast,

624
00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:05.720
<v Speaker 2>but there is a future fulfillment that kind of mirrors

625
00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:07.400
<v Speaker 2>those things too. So you can find a lot of

626
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:09.240
<v Speaker 2>those videos on my channel. I don't want to ramble

627
00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:12.799
<v Speaker 2>too much about into the world, but just well, probably

628
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:15.440
<v Speaker 2>the most clear references that in Luke twenty one, Jesus

629
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:17.720
<v Speaker 2>says there are some of you standing here who will

630
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:22.079
<v Speaker 2>not die. You will see Jerusalem surrounded by enemies. You

631
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.680
<v Speaker 2>will see it raised to the ground. And he says,

632
00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:28.480
<v Speaker 2>don't try to flee on the sabbath, or pray that

633
00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:31.000
<v Speaker 2>it's you don't have to flee on the Sabbath. Well,

634
00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:34.319
<v Speaker 2>that's not relevant to us post seventy eight D or

635
00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:37.480
<v Speaker 2>after the Book of Hebrews is written. We're not sitting

636
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:40.079
<v Speaker 2>around worrying about traveling on the Sabbath. So it has

637
00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:43.519
<v Speaker 2>to be relevant to the immediate hearers of Jesus' message.

638
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:46.640
<v Speaker 2>And I have a I wrote a grad paper on

639
00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:51.319
<v Speaker 2>this about seventy a d. And Josephus's eyewitness account of

640
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:54.920
<v Speaker 2>the destruction of Jerusalem. So I think that partial preadterism

641
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:57.720
<v Speaker 2>is one of percent true men. Most of the Eastern

642
00:32:57.759 --> 00:32:58.400
<v Speaker 2>fathers agree.

643
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:05.000
<v Speaker 1>There was a who's that Protestant guy? The conservative he've

644
00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:08.279
<v Speaker 1>retweeted your your posts on that.

645
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:11.839
<v Speaker 2>I have to Oh, yeah, I'm not super super familiar

646
00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:14.240
<v Speaker 2>with this guy. Nope. Father Moses kind of asked him,

647
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:15.640
<v Speaker 2>challenged him on some things.

648
00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:18.680
<v Speaker 1>But Joel or whatever, Oh yeah, Joel web that might

649
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:21.160
<v Speaker 1>be interesting to have a chat with with him. He's

650
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:23.160
<v Speaker 1>kind of like popping off right now.

651
00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:27.279
<v Speaker 2>I think he did reply a while back somebody said,

652
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:28.839
<v Speaker 2>do you want to have a debate or discussion, because

653
00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:32.960
<v Speaker 2>remember they did that podcast about orthodoxy maybe six months ago,

654
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:34.720
<v Speaker 2>and I think somebody asked him and he was like,

655
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm not really confident to debate or he said something

656
00:33:37.799 --> 00:33:39.920
<v Speaker 2>like that, but yeah, I'm always open. I'm always open

657
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:40.400
<v Speaker 2>to chatting.

658
00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:43.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean you guys both agree

659
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:45.640
<v Speaker 1>on that, so that might be a good Uh. I

660
00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:49.240
<v Speaker 1>don't know something interesting. Uh film Lincoln trailer is American

661
00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:52.200
<v Speaker 1>orthodox film dot com. Okay, cool, thanks for thanks for

662
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:53.799
<v Speaker 1>letting me know. Man, I'll have to check that out later.

663
00:33:53.799 --> 00:33:55.279
<v Speaker 1>I haven't I haven't seen anything about it.

664
00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:57.000
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

665
00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:01.240
<v Speaker 1>Lots of people are talking about the Folks publication book

666
00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:04.119
<v Speaker 1>that spends a long time discussing your article about analogy.

667
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:06.319
<v Speaker 1>Any plan on doing a response?

668
00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:10.039
<v Speaker 2>Lots of people? Yeah, I mean that following. That's a

669
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:12.559
<v Speaker 2>guy who started his own publishing out of his own basement,

670
00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:14.880
<v Speaker 2>and I think he has like a handful of followers.

671
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:17.199
<v Speaker 2>So I don't think there's a lot of people, I

672
00:34:17.239 --> 00:34:21.679
<v Speaker 2>mean can simply address the issues themselves. That Romanites is

673
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:26.239
<v Speaker 2>a open nominalist. It's really not possible to have a

674
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:32.440
<v Speaker 2>Christological approach where Christ assumes universal human nature. If you're

675
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:35.599
<v Speaker 2>a nominalist, how could you believe in universe human nature

676
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:40.320
<v Speaker 2>being assumed if you're a radical nominalist. I mean there's

677
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:43.840
<v Speaker 2>many other mistakes as well. I think Romanites is a

678
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:47.239
<v Speaker 2>he's a controversial, conflicted figure, but I mean that's one

679
00:34:47.239 --> 00:34:50.480
<v Speaker 2>of the biggest problems. I mean, the Cappadocians use analogia

680
00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:53.039
<v Speaker 2>all the time, so it would be fundamentally opposed to

681
00:34:53.079 --> 00:34:57.199
<v Speaker 2>Capitocian theology to say that there is no analogia, and that,

682
00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:01.599
<v Speaker 2>as Rumani says, all he says, all the sickness of

683
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:05.119
<v Speaker 2>religion is based on analogy or analogia. I just think

684
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:06.360
<v Speaker 2>that's preposterous.

685
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:11.519
<v Speaker 1>All right, let's take a look at this one. A

686
00:35:11.559 --> 00:35:16.599
<v Speaker 1>lot of Protestants like Gavin Ortland are really leveraging ecclesiological anxiety.

687
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:20.199
<v Speaker 1>I guess he calls he calls it acclesial anxiety against inquirers.

688
00:35:20.360 --> 00:35:22.960
<v Speaker 1>Feels like emotional blackmail. I mean I can kind of

689
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:24.159
<v Speaker 1>speak to that, if that's all right.

690
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Go ahead. I don't know what that means.

691
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:28.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so you know, Gavin, Gavin's a friend of mine.

692
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:30.320
<v Speaker 1>He was actually one of the He was actually one

693
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:33.000
<v Speaker 1>of the only Protestants that were kind of cool after I, uh,

694
00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:35.199
<v Speaker 1>after I made the announcement. So I don't want to

695
00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:37.400
<v Speaker 1>be rude to him or anything, but to be fair

696
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:42.239
<v Speaker 1>to his brand, his brand is very You have these claims,

697
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:45.519
<v Speaker 1>these exclusivity claims are Roman Catholics and Eastian orthodox make right.

698
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:49.360
<v Speaker 1>So that causes people anxiety. His brand serves to ease

699
00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:52.519
<v Speaker 1>that anxiety. They call that ecclesial anxiety. Oh yeah, I

700
00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:55.280
<v Speaker 1>mean I would I would agree a lot of the

701
00:35:55.320 --> 00:35:59.360
<v Speaker 1>Protestants do have this anxiety. I was never really one

702
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:03.960
<v Speaker 1>of them. The exclusivity claims it was either true or

703
00:36:04.039 --> 00:36:05.760
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't. You know what I mean, The Orthodoxy was

704
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:08.960
<v Speaker 1>ever either true or it wasn't. So it really had

705
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:11.280
<v Speaker 1>nothing for me to do with anxiety. But I will

706
00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:14.000
<v Speaker 1>say one of the ways that I had gotten kind

707
00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:16.920
<v Speaker 1>of in contact with him for networking was I used

708
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:19.079
<v Speaker 1>to run a discord server back in the day called

709
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:23.039
<v Speaker 1>the Scripture Alone Discord. It was the largest Protestant discord

710
00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:26.079
<v Speaker 1>back then. It's probably not anymore, but back then when

711
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:29.400
<v Speaker 1>I helped run it, I had reached out to Gavin.

712
00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:31.679
<v Speaker 1>He had done some events with me, I joined his server,

713
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:36.760
<v Speaker 1>and his server was for people with ecclesial anxiety. So

714
00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:39.199
<v Speaker 1>it was like the whole brand is to kind of

715
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:42.000
<v Speaker 1>we're going to present arguments that you can kind of,

716
00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:45.800
<v Speaker 1>in my opinion looking back at it now, is more like,

717
00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:50.880
<v Speaker 1>so you can compartmentalize this information because we're gonna cast

718
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:53.320
<v Speaker 1>just a little bit of doubt on this particular claim,

719
00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:56.840
<v Speaker 1>this particular claim just enough to kind of stall your

720
00:36:56.840 --> 00:36:59.360
<v Speaker 1>decision into moving into one of these traditions, whether it's

721
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:03.079
<v Speaker 1>Roman hoolicism or orthox, which is why you'll see in

722
00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:07.760
<v Speaker 1>the videos. In my opinion, it's always like very minor objections.

723
00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:12.039
<v Speaker 1>It's like, okay, well here's a very specific, nuanced claim

724
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:16.280
<v Speaker 1>about icon veneration. I'm going to attack this very specific argument.

725
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:20.159
<v Speaker 1>So that way, if you know objections are brought from

726
00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:22.639
<v Speaker 1>maybe an earlier date or another icon or whatever, I

727
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:24.119
<v Speaker 1>can say, well, that wasn't what I was addressing in

728
00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:27.159
<v Speaker 1>the video. I'm just addressing this thing to debunk this

729
00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:29.519
<v Speaker 1>one argument that's causing people anxiety. So that's kind of

730
00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:33.960
<v Speaker 1>the brand there. But I mean a lot of people

731
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:36.519
<v Speaker 1>that's true. That is kind of the motivation for why

732
00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:39.920
<v Speaker 1>he does what he does, and feels like emotional blackmail.

733
00:37:41.559 --> 00:37:44.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I don't want to speak to intentions. I

734
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:46.800
<v Speaker 1>don't think that is his intention. I think he sees

735
00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:49.960
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people with this anxiety, and from his perspective,

736
00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:53.800
<v Speaker 1>he's trying to ease it. Whether or not that's you know,

737
00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:54.760
<v Speaker 1>it is what it is.

738
00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:57.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, only thing I'll say to that is that one

739
00:37:57.320 --> 00:37:59.320
<v Speaker 2>thing we do plan to do is to kind of

740
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:02.760
<v Speaker 2>resurrect discord. So I kind of handed that off about

741
00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:05.280
<v Speaker 2>three years ago just because I was too busy. I've

742
00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:07.119
<v Speaker 2>seen now that there is a kind of a need

743
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:10.559
<v Speaker 2>for maybe weekly Q and A because so many people

744
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:13.360
<v Speaker 2>are interested in Orthodoxy and a lot of people don't

745
00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:17.920
<v Speaker 2>have due to their location necessarily like an immediate parish.

746
00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:20.039
<v Speaker 2>So I think we do need to step up and

747
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:23.079
<v Speaker 2>try to offer you know, maybe not full on katechisis

748
00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:25.480
<v Speaker 2>per se, but like at least answering a lot of

749
00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:27.239
<v Speaker 2>those kind of basic questions that a lot of people

750
00:38:27.239 --> 00:38:30.480
<v Speaker 2>are having. So we will be reviving my discord in

751
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:32.800
<v Speaker 2>the next week or two. We're going to start doing

752
00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:33.760
<v Speaker 2>the weekly Q and A.

753
00:38:34.039 --> 00:38:36.920
<v Speaker 1>So right on I might need to make a discord

754
00:38:36.920 --> 00:38:39.239
<v Speaker 1>account again. I haven't been on that thing in years.

755
00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:40.599
<v Speaker 1>Let's see.

756
00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:42.679
<v Speaker 2>I mean it can be a lot of work, Like

757
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:45.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you as you know, right, Like yeah, I

758
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:48.280
<v Speaker 2>would say from like twenty eighteen to twenty twenty two,

759
00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:51.960
<v Speaker 2>like I was in discord a lot, right, it got

760
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:53.880
<v Speaker 2>to be almost too much.

761
00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:57.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that was probably about

762
00:38:57.079 --> 00:39:00.199
<v Speaker 1>the same same time period, you know that I I

763
00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:02.360
<v Speaker 1>was active there. You know, I did the I did

764
00:39:02.360 --> 00:39:04.639
<v Speaker 1>the one. I did a lot of debates on there

765
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:06.960
<v Speaker 1>back in the day. That's kind of where I started off.

766
00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:10.320
<v Speaker 1>And then Redeem Zuomer was like, hey, you need to

767
00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:12.360
<v Speaker 1>make in a well I guess maybe I haven't been

768
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:15.239
<v Speaker 1>on it in like over a year then justly probably

769
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:18.119
<v Speaker 1>just about a year, because why I started my YouTube

770
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:20.360
<v Speaker 1>was Redeem Zoomer was like, hey, nobody's doing the Protestant

771
00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:22.280
<v Speaker 1>apologetic stuff. Why don't you go make a YouTube and

772
00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:24.960
<v Speaker 1>hop in these debates. So I did it maybe six

773
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:27.480
<v Speaker 1>months after he told me that, But uh, you know

774
00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:30.199
<v Speaker 1>that was eventual. That was originally where that was, And

775
00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:32.360
<v Speaker 1>I told you in a in a conversation we had

776
00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:36.000
<v Speaker 1>before that. Uh, that Cannon's argument that I gave I

777
00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:40.079
<v Speaker 1>gave him he used in the debate with Luigi. That

778
00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:44.039
<v Speaker 1>was where he got that Trullo PiZZ because he was like,

779
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:45.440
<v Speaker 1>how do I you know, what do I do here?

780
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:47.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, all right, try this one out. I'll give you.

781
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:50.599
<v Speaker 1>I'll give you a couple a couple of tools. Yeah,

782
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:55.119
<v Speaker 1>kind of interesting. All right, let's see, Uh, Jay, Jay,

783
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:57.840
<v Speaker 1>how does it feel that you're conversing side by side

784
00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:03.119
<v Speaker 1>with someone, okay who not even six six months ago

785
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:06.559
<v Speaker 1>called you into debate orthodoxy? Do you see fast conversions

786
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:07.320
<v Speaker 1>on the horizon?

787
00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:10.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean it feels great. I'm really happy for Cleve.

788
00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:12.480
<v Speaker 2>I think I want him to know, as everybody else,

789
00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:15.559
<v Speaker 2>that is not about winning the debate. I know people

790
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:18.280
<v Speaker 2>might think that how could die or say that that's

791
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:21.000
<v Speaker 2>so disingen. No, it really isn't about winning some debate

792
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:23.679
<v Speaker 2>or winning some arguments. Really, all that matters is was

793
00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:27.559
<v Speaker 2>true and everybody, at the end of the day is

794
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.480
<v Speaker 2>bound by what's true. And most of the people, I

795
00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:35.119
<v Speaker 2>think in our space, people who are out there vocally talking,

796
00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:37.440
<v Speaker 2>I want to hope that they have the right motives.

797
00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:41.280
<v Speaker 2>And so I think it's an amazing testament to you know,

798
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:44.519
<v Speaker 2>his search for truth and his putting truth first over

799
00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:46.360
<v Speaker 2>what he wants to be true or what I want

800
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:48.639
<v Speaker 2>to be true anybody, and that's that's just how we

801
00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:51.159
<v Speaker 2>ought to be. So that's great, thank God for that.

802
00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:59.360
<v Speaker 2>I don't know about how fast, but I mean, I

803
00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:02.960
<v Speaker 2>don't even I can't even believe, Like from what's happened

804
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:05.599
<v Speaker 2>from twenty seventeen till now, this kind of blows me away,

805
00:41:05.719 --> 00:41:09.519
<v Speaker 2>Like so many churches are tripled in size, they have

806
00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:12.599
<v Speaker 2>one hundred two hundred CD of humans, and I keep

807
00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:14.519
<v Speaker 2>hearing that, like they don't even have enough priests to

808
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:18.239
<v Speaker 2>deal with people wanting to inquire and be kind of humans.

809
00:41:18.280 --> 00:41:20.920
<v Speaker 2>So that's why I'm saying, like another reason to kind

810
00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:25.400
<v Speaker 2>of get the discord going again. But I would guess probably,

811
00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:29.599
<v Speaker 2>and I will say this, it seems like back in

812
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:34.280
<v Speaker 2>twenty seventeen to twenty twenty, the ripe ground for conversion

813
00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:37.519
<v Speaker 2>was Catholic because I was dealing with a lot of

814
00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:39.760
<v Speaker 2>Catholics and a lot of trad Cats that were converting.

815
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:42.880
<v Speaker 2>But from twenty twenty till now, it seems like it's

816
00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:46.280
<v Speaker 2>dominated by Protestants converting. So I think we kind of

817
00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:48.519
<v Speaker 2>got most of the Roman Catholic which is not to

818
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:50.280
<v Speaker 2>say that in the next several years there won't be

819
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:52.800
<v Speaker 2>more Roman Catholics. It's just that a lot of them

820
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:57.599
<v Speaker 2>are so dug in, they're so like just like there's

821
00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:59.880
<v Speaker 2>there's some hole that you know, the papers he has

822
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:03.119
<v Speaker 2>as kind of you know, unique. I guess you could

823
00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:07.440
<v Speaker 2>say I think the fertile ground now is Protestant in

824
00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:09.559
<v Speaker 2>my view. But I mean again, I think God's grace

825
00:42:09.639 --> 00:42:12.400
<v Speaker 2>is going to work with a lot of people. I mean,

826
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:15.360
<v Speaker 2>hopefully Tim Gordon will come around one day. I've been

827
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:16.239
<v Speaker 2>working on Tim for.

828
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:17.880
<v Speaker 1>So long, but it'd be awesome.

829
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:20.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but I think, uh, yeah, I don't know what

830
00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:23.039
<v Speaker 2>your experience is or what you've noticed, but it seems

831
00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:26.480
<v Speaker 2>to me that just the last few years there's a

832
00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:29.519
<v Speaker 2>lot more Protestants are open than Romancolics are. Yeah.

833
00:42:29.599 --> 00:42:32.119
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I just if I were to go off,

834
00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:35.159
<v Speaker 1>I mean, obviously my audience was mostly Protestant, but you know,

835
00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:37.440
<v Speaker 1>all the emails like I've gotten from people who were

836
00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:40.480
<v Speaker 1>Protestant watching my staff that are now saying, well, you know,

837
00:42:40.519 --> 00:42:42.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to try to become a catechumen, or I've

838
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:45.679
<v Speaker 1>started attending Divine Liturgy. They've all been Protestants, And I

839
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:47.840
<v Speaker 1>thought I thought those emails would slow down. They have

840
00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:50.000
<v Speaker 1>it Like I'm still getting them almost every day, so

841
00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:54.119
<v Speaker 1>people are it's ripe that there's a lot of people

842
00:42:54.159 --> 00:42:55.559
<v Speaker 1>that are that are interested right now.

843
00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:00.719
<v Speaker 2>So and Roman Caolic churches are really helping us by

844
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:02.760
<v Speaker 2>pushing all the woke shit, you know what I mean.

845
00:43:03.159 --> 00:43:05.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I just got a message today from a

846
00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:08.519
<v Speaker 1>Roman Catholic said he was becoming Orthodox. So you know,

847
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:10.960
<v Speaker 1>I think I think it's both. I think you're right though.

848
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:14.840
<v Speaker 1>The Protestant camp right now is experienced a lot, like

849
00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:17.559
<v Speaker 1>a lot of a lot of various losses recently, and

850
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:21.960
<v Speaker 1>people are expecting, I mean, really the only viable options

851
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:24.599
<v Speaker 1>for people if they want it to be anything other

852
00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:27.320
<v Speaker 1>than maybe like a non denominational evangelical kind of like

853
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:30.280
<v Speaker 1>low church. Guy, what are your options? You look at

854
00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:33.199
<v Speaker 1>the lcms, you look at Anglicanism, or people really going

855
00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:35.760
<v Speaker 1>to go the Anglicanism route now after all the stuff

856
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:38.079
<v Speaker 1>that's happened in the media. I mean, I don't know.

857
00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:41.079
<v Speaker 1>To me, it doesn't seem like a very easy decision

858
00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:44.840
<v Speaker 1>to make when part of you joining that denomination is

859
00:43:44.840 --> 00:43:47.119
<v Speaker 1>you having to preface no, we're actually not the gay ones.

860
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:49.559
<v Speaker 1>We're not those you know. I mean, you have the

861
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:51.599
<v Speaker 1>same problem in Lutheranism. But I mean, look at what

862
00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:54.719
<v Speaker 1>was just what people were talking about very recently. If

863
00:43:54.760 --> 00:43:57.119
<v Speaker 1>you're if you're any kind of like I mean, I

864
00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:59.199
<v Speaker 1>know people don't like the title, but if you're interested

865
00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:01.599
<v Speaker 1>in like Christian now rationalism or anything like that, they

866
00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:05.480
<v Speaker 1>posted a whole uh this has been kind of resurrected.

867
00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:10.360
<v Speaker 1>There's a whole uh confession about their doctrinal values and

868
00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:13.159
<v Speaker 1>basically it says you can't be a Christian nationalist. It's

869
00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:13.920
<v Speaker 1>it's condemned.

870
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:16.880
<v Speaker 2>So a thing that like James White and people to

871
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:17.400
<v Speaker 2>sign on too.

872
00:44:18.519 --> 00:44:20.960
<v Speaker 1>No, this was this is an older document that's kind

873
00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:23.519
<v Speaker 1>of resurfaced, but it was one of the foundational documents

874
00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:27.159
<v Speaker 1>in the l CMS. So like guys like, I mean,

875
00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:29.760
<v Speaker 1>I don't I don't take this guy seriously. But guys

876
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:31.840
<v Speaker 1>like Corey Maler or whatever, they're like, oh, you need

877
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:34.239
<v Speaker 1>to be l CMS because we're based you know. It's

878
00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:35.599
<v Speaker 1>like okay, well.

879
00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:38.880
<v Speaker 2>But there the their synod is saying you can't be

880
00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:39.800
<v Speaker 2>a Christian nationalist.

881
00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:44.480
<v Speaker 1>Basically, yeah, gotcha? All right? Uh do you still listen

882
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:46.840
<v Speaker 1>to any Protestant warship? No?

883
00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:51.039
<v Speaker 2>I mean I might maybe around Christmas time we hear

884
00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:56.639
<v Speaker 2>like Handell's Messiah and it doesn't bother me, but really

885
00:44:56.639 --> 00:44:59.519
<v Speaker 2>most of the Protestant stuff ever since. I mean, I

886
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:03.760
<v Speaker 2>haven't been Protestant since two thousand and three, so I

887
00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:06.000
<v Speaker 2>think I've only stepped foot into Protestant church a couple

888
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.800
<v Speaker 2>of times since two thousand and three. So you got

889
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:11.000
<v Speaker 2>to you gotta understand, that's like a world that's like

890
00:45:11.039 --> 00:45:14.639
<v Speaker 2>twenty two years removed from my life. So now I

891
00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:16.679
<v Speaker 2>don't I don't recall. I mean maybe every now and

892
00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:19.960
<v Speaker 2>then I hear like an evangelical like Toby Mack or

893
00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:21.639
<v Speaker 2>something that you know what I mean, Like when I

894
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:23.440
<v Speaker 2>was in the a kid in the nineties, I've listened

895
00:45:23.480 --> 00:45:25.880
<v Speaker 2>to DC Talk or something like. I think it's funny.

896
00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:27.880
<v Speaker 2>But no, I don't. I don't listen to any Protestant work.

897
00:45:28.599 --> 00:45:30.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't know.

898
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:32.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it's a big deal. Like I'm not

899
00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:35.320
<v Speaker 2>knocking you if you do. I just it's just so

900
00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:39.760
<v Speaker 2>far removed from like, you know, I think the last

901
00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:42.000
<v Speaker 2>time I was in a Protestant church other than I

902
00:45:42.039 --> 00:45:44.480
<v Speaker 2>think one went to somebody's wedding back in the two thousands,

903
00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:46.920
<v Speaker 2>was probably two thousand and three, and I was at

904
00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:50.519
<v Speaker 2>like a Doug Wilson Herry c Church. So it's been

905
00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:51.719
<v Speaker 2>since two thousand and three.

906
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:57.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I've never really been a huge fan of evangelical

907
00:45:57.039 --> 00:46:00.639
<v Speaker 1>worship music to begin with. Now there's like, I mean

908
00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:03.360
<v Speaker 1>we're kind of joking about the like Christian rock bands

909
00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:05.159
<v Speaker 1>or whatever, but there is one I actually do like.

910
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:07.840
<v Speaker 1>It's called Dogwood. They're actually pretty good. They're like a

911
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:08.360
<v Speaker 1>punk war.

912
00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:10.199
<v Speaker 2>There are a couple of Christian rock bands that I

913
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:12.039
<v Speaker 2>could probably still listen to, like I would, I like,

914
00:46:13.159 --> 00:46:15.559
<v Speaker 2>let me turn this line back on here. Yeah, I

915
00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:17.800
<v Speaker 2>mean I always like Skillett. I saw Skullet back in

916
00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:18.079
<v Speaker 2>the day.

917
00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:19.719
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, I saw them live.

918
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:22.000
<v Speaker 2>Actually, yeah, I've seen them live I think twice.

919
00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:28.079
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, how does Eastern Orthodox approach global missions?

920
00:46:30.039 --> 00:46:32.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean missions are always handled by the bishops sending

921
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:36.920
<v Speaker 2>out missionaries. So you know when you we have a

922
00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:40.559
<v Speaker 2>friend that just went to a church in Korea and

923
00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:43.320
<v Speaker 2>even I didn't know there was a Korean Orthodox bishop,

924
00:46:43.719 --> 00:46:46.920
<v Speaker 2>So I mean usually, you know, prior to the modern era,

925
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:49.960
<v Speaker 2>it would be also in Tannem with the state, right,

926
00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:53.480
<v Speaker 2>so like Zar Nicholas would send you know, missionaries out

927
00:46:53.559 --> 00:46:56.880
<v Speaker 2>to Alaska or whatever. So if you want more of

928
00:46:56.880 --> 00:46:59.360
<v Speaker 2>a detailed history of that. Ubi Petris actually made I

929
00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:02.639
<v Speaker 2>think a three part documentary on the history of Orthodox missions.

930
00:47:03.199 --> 00:47:06.119
<v Speaker 2>So I highly recommend his three part series. It's really good,

931
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:09.199
<v Speaker 2>but it's usually handled like at the bishopric level. I mean,

932
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:11.119
<v Speaker 2>America is kind of unique because we're going to have

933
00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:16.280
<v Speaker 2>this organic and actually genuinely organic kind of interest in

934
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:18.800
<v Speaker 2>Orthodoxy in the last few decades. It's really kind of

935
00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:22.280
<v Speaker 2>kind of coming to a head and kind of exploding

936
00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:24.880
<v Speaker 2>in the last five years. Yeah, but I would say

937
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:28.360
<v Speaker 2>that's outside the norm of history.

938
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:34.559
<v Speaker 1>Quick question for Jay can inquire to the Orthodox faith

939
00:47:34.599 --> 00:47:36.639
<v Speaker 1>prayer that Jesus prayer before they're a catechumen.

940
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:39.639
<v Speaker 2>Sure, I mean everything I've ever heard would say absolutely,

941
00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:40.280
<v Speaker 2>anybody can.

942
00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:46.000
<v Speaker 1>Can you explain why absolute divine simplicity does not allow

943
00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:46.920
<v Speaker 1>for Theophanes?

944
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:51.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I think the way that the Roman Catholics themselves

945
00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:55.519
<v Speaker 2>define it. They themselves say that the Theophanes have to

946
00:47:55.519 --> 00:48:02.159
<v Speaker 2>be created in stantiations, iterationss angels. However you want to

947
00:48:02.199 --> 00:48:04.840
<v Speaker 2>frame it or they want to frame it. And it

948
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:08.119
<v Speaker 2>is true that some Roman Catholics want to say, no,

949
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:11.719
<v Speaker 2>it's really Christ, it's really Christ, right, but I think

950
00:48:11.719 --> 00:48:14.239
<v Speaker 2>they're not really on board with the trek that their

951
00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:17.480
<v Speaker 2>church went down, because the actual theology doesn't say that,

952
00:48:18.599 --> 00:48:21.880
<v Speaker 2>particularly if you read doctor Bradshaw's article on essence synergy,

953
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:24.920
<v Speaker 2>what kind of distinction? The longer version he gets into

954
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:28.199
<v Speaker 2>the fourth ladder in Council, which has a definition of

955
00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:31.679
<v Speaker 2>divine simplicity that you could call in the literature, it's

956
00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:35.360
<v Speaker 2>called identity thesis. So basically, any predicate of the divinity

957
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:39.679
<v Speaker 2>is identical. It's isomorphically identical with the divine essence. So

958
00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:43.039
<v Speaker 2>if you say divine knowledge, divine mercy, divine justice, they

959
00:48:43.239 --> 00:48:46.400
<v Speaker 2>are the divine essence. And this becomes even more problematic

960
00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:49.400
<v Speaker 2>when Roman Catholics want to say that God is pure

961
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.079
<v Speaker 2>act or act as purists, Well, is that also a

962
00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:55.840
<v Speaker 2>predicate of the essence? So God's essence is pure act? Well,

963
00:48:55.840 --> 00:48:58.440
<v Speaker 2>if God is eternally pure act, then you're now in

964
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:02.400
<v Speaker 2>these weird ari Resitilian categy glories of does he eternally

965
00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:05.159
<v Speaker 2>then move? What to be first act means that you're

966
00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:09.239
<v Speaker 2>always actualizing something else, and that would require an eternal

967
00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:13.599
<v Speaker 2>world to eternally actualize, and so that's why, for example

968
00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:18.119
<v Speaker 2>Basil and the Hexameron. He criticizes Aristotle as a bitheist

969
00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:21.119
<v Speaker 2>he says, Aristotle believes in a diad because you have

970
00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:27.159
<v Speaker 2>the eternal actualizer and what he actualizes eternally. So that's

971
00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:30.800
<v Speaker 2>also a problem for the incarnation, because if you really

972
00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:35.159
<v Speaker 2>canosis Passage of Philippians too clearly, there's a willful self

973
00:49:35.239 --> 00:49:38.199
<v Speaker 2>limiting that the son did to step in the time

974
00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:41.360
<v Speaker 2>and space. It's not the Father, it's not the spirit.

975
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:44.599
<v Speaker 2>It's one of the hypostases entering into a motive being

976
00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:47.519
<v Speaker 2>that the other two do not. And if you have

977
00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:53.480
<v Speaker 2>this really radical metaphysical commitment to an absolute neo platonic simplicity,

978
00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:56.360
<v Speaker 2>you have to understand, as Dock Bradshaw shows in his works,

979
00:49:56.559 --> 00:49:58.559
<v Speaker 2>there's not just one model of divine simplicity in the

980
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:02.360
<v Speaker 2>Patricia era. The Capodocean model is not the neoplatonic model.

981
00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:08.199
<v Speaker 2>Origin and first principles, and Platinis and Augustine have the

982
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:11.360
<v Speaker 2>same idea of what simplicity has to be. It's not

983
00:50:11.480 --> 00:50:14.119
<v Speaker 2>the same thing is that what the Cavedocians think simplicity

984
00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:17.679
<v Speaker 2>has to be. So the Cavedocean model is first and

985
00:50:17.719 --> 00:50:23.800
<v Speaker 2>foremost concerned with defending the triad. The Western Augustinian or

986
00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:27.639
<v Speaker 2>Originist model is first and foremost concerned with the metaphysics

987
00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:32.400
<v Speaker 2>of absolute simplicity and no distinctions. Right, so you can

988
00:50:32.440 --> 00:50:35.079
<v Speaker 2>see which model, obviously is more trinitarian. It's the cabin

989
00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:38.480
<v Speaker 2>doocean model. That's what's that. Constantinople One and the Eastern

990
00:50:38.519 --> 00:50:41.159
<v Speaker 2>Church fathers, as far as I'm aware, none of them

991
00:50:41.480 --> 00:50:46.719
<v Speaker 2>have the Augustinian speculation that Theophanes could be created things.

992
00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:49.920
<v Speaker 2>Every Orthodox Church father all the way back to Justin Marner,

993
00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:53.599
<v Speaker 2>all the way up to Whenever that Theophanes are really

994
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:57.119
<v Speaker 2>the logos in time and space. That requires the distinction,

995
00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:01.800
<v Speaker 2>and it requires this not often talked about idea of mode.

996
00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:06.159
<v Speaker 2>Mode is very important for theology because it's the way

997
00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:08.639
<v Speaker 2>a thing is, it's how a thing is, and so

998
00:51:08.719 --> 00:51:11.159
<v Speaker 2>it's the second person that God had entering into a

999
00:51:11.320 --> 00:51:16.199
<v Speaker 2>mode of being incarnate that the other two do not. Now,

1000
00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:18.519
<v Speaker 2>think about it, if God is an absolutely simple ball,

1001
00:51:19.639 --> 00:51:22.880
<v Speaker 2>you can't have one of the ball be in a

1002
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:26.880
<v Speaker 2>mode of being that the other two aren't, because you're

1003
00:51:26.920 --> 00:51:29.519
<v Speaker 2>basically moving in the direction of modalism. And so the

1004
00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:33.000
<v Speaker 2>main problem with absolutely my simplicity, especially if you read

1005
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:35.280
<v Speaker 2>even the Catholic just go to the cathlic and Psychopedia

1006
00:51:35.360 --> 00:51:38.480
<v Speaker 2>and read the entry on Eunomius.

1007
00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:46.840
<v Speaker 1>It sounds like Aquinas, Yeah, on that same kind of Actually,

1008
00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:49.079
<v Speaker 1>I saw that in the Tim Gordon debate where he

1009
00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:51.559
<v Speaker 1>was saying the uh, Theophanes were created.

1010
00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:55.440
<v Speaker 2>Tim was just expressing the standard Tomas Cathy decision.

1011
00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:58.400
<v Speaker 1>Right, it does. I think you were You were right

1012
00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:00.079
<v Speaker 1>to harp on it a bit though, because that it

1013
00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:04.079
<v Speaker 1>does sound ridiculous outloud. Absolutely, and you you had made

1014
00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:06.719
<v Speaker 1>an argument a while ago that I thought was really

1015
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:10.519
<v Speaker 1>interesting to think about that essence energy distinction is necessary

1016
00:52:10.599 --> 00:52:14.480
<v Speaker 1>to have any kind of coherent Eucharistic theology, because otherwise

1017
00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:16.360
<v Speaker 1>you're saying what you're eating the essence of God.

1018
00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:19.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is an argument that I noticed reading St.

1019
00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:22.280
<v Speaker 2>Cyril of Alexandria's two Letters to six Census. So they're

1020
00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:24.440
<v Speaker 2>not very long. I recommend everybody read it. You'll notice

1021
00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:28.039
<v Speaker 2>that in those letters Cyril says, clearly we are partaking

1022
00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:31.559
<v Speaker 2>of the deified flesh the god man that deified flesh

1023
00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:36.440
<v Speaker 2>is deified because he communicates his uncreated immortality to it

1024
00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:39.519
<v Speaker 2>to raise it, to deify it. And he says, we

1025
00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:42.400
<v Speaker 2>all know we're not eating or particular of the divine

1026
00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:47.400
<v Speaker 2>usia fusis or essence. Yeah, what's the only other option.

1027
00:52:47.480 --> 00:52:50.480
<v Speaker 2>And by the way, if you read Cyril in many

1028
00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:53.480
<v Speaker 2>other places, he is very clear about the energies. Saint

1029
00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:56.440
<v Speaker 2>Cerril explicitly teaches the essence and interestinction. So we know

1030
00:52:56.519 --> 00:53:00.360
<v Speaker 2>that Cyril is arguing that the uncreated energy gees are

1031
00:53:00.400 --> 00:53:05.480
<v Speaker 2>what deify and permeate and penetrate the Eucharist, because that

1032
00:53:05.599 --> 00:53:09.000
<v Speaker 2>is the deified flesh. And so the principal christology is

1033
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:11.440
<v Speaker 2>the same for the principle of the Eucharist. That's only

1034
00:53:11.480 --> 00:53:14.599
<v Speaker 2>possible if you have the essenceentary distinction. And in the

1035
00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:18.679
<v Speaker 2>Tomistic or the Roman Catholic scheme, I mean, who knows,

1036
00:53:18.679 --> 00:53:20.920
<v Speaker 2>Like I've never really gotten a good answer. There is

1037
00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:26.199
<v Speaker 2>a really long discussion in uh, who's the who's the

1038
00:53:26.280 --> 00:53:34.920
<v Speaker 2>tomast Lagron Labron, excuse me about this? And he doesn't know.

1039
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:37.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's interesting.

1040
00:53:37.519 --> 00:53:39.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean, why would't we just say what Cyril and

1041
00:53:39.320 --> 00:53:42.119
<v Speaker 2>the fourth councils and the third Council office to say,

1042
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:44.880
<v Speaker 2>you're eating the defied flesh the gone man. Okay, well,

1043
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:50.079
<v Speaker 2>deified isn't a creative thing. And if you read Paula

1044
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:53.360
<v Speaker 2>MOS's debate with the Barlem, the whole debate shifts towards

1045
00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:57.239
<v Speaker 2>what we partake of, what we're participating in. And if

1046
00:53:57.280 --> 00:54:01.760
<v Speaker 2>the argument holds that you're partaking of uncreated raise, uncreated glory,

1047
00:54:01.920 --> 00:54:04.760
<v Speaker 2>then what's in the eu charus can't be just another creature.

1048
00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:09.400
<v Speaker 1>How much? How much time do you have? By the way,

1049
00:54:09.400 --> 00:54:10.519
<v Speaker 1>I didn't ask before we started.

1050
00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:13.119
<v Speaker 2>Let's see what I've got? Some more time?

1051
00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:16.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, like thirty or an hour?

1052
00:54:16.360 --> 00:54:17.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, what do you How long do you usually go?

1053
00:54:18.239 --> 00:54:19.400
<v Speaker 1>I usually go two hours?

1054
00:54:20.039 --> 00:54:21.239
<v Speaker 2>Okay, how long we've been going?

1055
00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:26.400
<v Speaker 1>Uh, we probably have an hour left if you let's see,

1056
00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:29.599
<v Speaker 1>Uh we did that one. I'm an inquirer of my nearest.

1057
00:54:30.039 --> 00:54:33.239
<v Speaker 1>My nearest parish has pews in an organ deal breaker

1058
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:36.719
<v Speaker 1>seems like a small thing indicative of a larger attitude

1059
00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:37.960
<v Speaker 1>of modernists. Has an organ?

1060
00:54:39.320 --> 00:54:42.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean it could be. I don't about modernism, except

1061
00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:44.920
<v Speaker 2>that a lot of times those kinds of it sounds

1062
00:54:44.920 --> 00:54:46.800
<v Speaker 2>like a Greek Orthodox church. Like a lot of times

1063
00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:50.000
<v Speaker 2>those churches are more so. I mean, they may be modernists,

1064
00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:52.559
<v Speaker 2>but they a lot of times have like Roman Catholic influence.

1065
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:59.280
<v Speaker 2>So I would just say, judge it. I'm not saying

1066
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:01.119
<v Speaker 2>those things don't ma matter, but judge it. More so

1067
00:55:01.119 --> 00:55:03.800
<v Speaker 2>on like, does the priests say heretical stuff?

1068
00:55:04.519 --> 00:55:09.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Wi Fi gospel. Good to see you man, Praise

1069
00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:12.119
<v Speaker 1>God for this collab. God bless you both. Hey, dude,

1070
00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:18.760
<v Speaker 1>become Orthodox. Dude, it's ending an Antiochian parish, but I'm

1071
00:55:18.760 --> 00:55:21.639
<v Speaker 1>thinking about moving given the current EP Should I consider

1072
00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:23.119
<v Speaker 1>a Greek parish? Why or why not?

1073
00:55:23.840 --> 00:55:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Again, I wouldn't judge the parishes on the basis

1074
00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:30.519
<v Speaker 2>of what's happening at that level, because again, there's many,

1075
00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:35.039
<v Speaker 2>many great parishes everywhere, So don't worry about the big

1076
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:38.119
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it matters what's happening at the big geopolitical level,

1077
00:55:38.119 --> 00:55:40.559
<v Speaker 2>but that doesn't matter so much for like your own

1078
00:55:41.320 --> 00:55:46.360
<v Speaker 2>parish unless you begin to notice specific In other words,

1079
00:55:46.360 --> 00:55:48.639
<v Speaker 2>don't judge it on that. Just go and just see

1080
00:55:48.639 --> 00:55:51.679
<v Speaker 2>for yourself. That's that's the main issue. Yeah. We have

1081
00:55:51.760 --> 00:55:54.880
<v Speaker 2>had people though that have left some Greek churches for

1082
00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:59.079
<v Speaker 2>Russian churches eventually, so just be prepared that you might have.

1083
00:55:59.079 --> 00:56:03.159
<v Speaker 1>To, right you. I mean, I can speak about this

1084
00:56:03.199 --> 00:56:06.199
<v Speaker 1>without being too scandalizing. Some of the advice that I

1085
00:56:06.239 --> 00:56:09.519
<v Speaker 1>got was ask if there's if there's a particular scandal

1086
00:56:09.559 --> 00:56:12.960
<v Speaker 1>that you're concerned about. I mean, ask the priest how

1087
00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:15.079
<v Speaker 1>he feels about it without giving your opinion, and then

1088
00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:17.039
<v Speaker 1>that'll basically tell you what you need to know.

1089
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:18.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a good way to put.

1090
00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:23.679
<v Speaker 1>Uh, howdy, I'm an inquirer and a jeweler. Would it

1091
00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:26.599
<v Speaker 1>be okay for a non Orthodox to make and produce

1092
00:56:26.679 --> 00:56:28.320
<v Speaker 1>Eastern Orthodox style jewelry?

1093
00:56:31.159 --> 00:56:32.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, if you're an inquirer, it sounds like you're moving

1094
00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:36.079
<v Speaker 2>that direction. But I mean I would I would maybe

1095
00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:39.880
<v Speaker 2>wait till you're you are Orthodox before trying to cash

1096
00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:42.079
<v Speaker 2>in on it. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure. I'm

1097
00:56:42.079 --> 00:56:43.920
<v Speaker 2>just taking a joke, but I mean I think it

1098
00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:47.559
<v Speaker 2>might come off as like grifty if you're like because

1099
00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:50.239
<v Speaker 2>I think there was a dude a while back who, like,

1100
00:56:50.480 --> 00:56:54.440
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't Orthodox, but he started selling Orthodox prayer rugs

1101
00:56:54.559 --> 00:56:57.920
<v Speaker 2>and prayer ropes and it's like, but you're not Orthodox,

1102
00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:00.480
<v Speaker 2>so he's just you know, I mean, I'm not judging

1103
00:57:00.519 --> 00:57:06.000
<v Speaker 2>you forever wins, but you know, maybe just give it

1104
00:57:06.039 --> 00:57:07.079
<v Speaker 2>some time before you do that.

1105
00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:10.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, just become Orthodox, right now, dude, That'll be that

1106
00:57:10.840 --> 00:57:12.840
<v Speaker 1>would be the answer. Can you tell my mother in

1107
00:57:12.920 --> 00:57:14.719
<v Speaker 1>law that pigeon shouldn't have blue hair?

1108
00:57:16.519 --> 00:57:20.559
<v Speaker 2>Yes, mother in law, they do not have blue hair.

1109
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:22.360
<v Speaker 2>How's that there?

1110
00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:24.800
<v Speaker 1>You go go ahead and click that, man, Jay, can

1111
00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:27.400
<v Speaker 1>you get cleave his own CGI bookshelf?

1112
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:28.280
<v Speaker 2>Nice?

1113
00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:30.239
<v Speaker 1>Actually I want to move Yeah, but.

1114
00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:34.320
<v Speaker 2>It'll only have comment, It'll only have mango on it.

1115
00:57:34.360 --> 00:57:38.280
<v Speaker 1>That'd be terrible, dude. Yeah, I have I have a

1116
00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:40.880
<v Speaker 1>couple of overflowing bookshelves in the living room. I want

1117
00:57:40.880 --> 00:57:43.000
<v Speaker 1>to move them into this office space. I just got to, like,

1118
00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:45.480
<v Speaker 1>I have a bunch of boxes right behind this desk,

1119
00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:47.079
<v Speaker 1>So I got to move them all out and then

1120
00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:50.480
<v Speaker 1>move the stuff around. So it's coming along. It's coming along, man.

1121
00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:52.719
<v Speaker 1>So eventually I'll have the bookshelves behind me and I

1122
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:55.400
<v Speaker 1>can look smart and I can like my Scooby Doo

1123
00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:56.239
<v Speaker 1>book and say like.

1124
00:57:56.679 --> 00:57:59.159
<v Speaker 2>They're all cardboard, they're not real books. It's just it's

1125
00:57:59.159 --> 00:58:01.760
<v Speaker 2>not they think it's that's actually just a set piece

1126
00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:02.480
<v Speaker 2>from a movie.

1127
00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:07.440
<v Speaker 1>It's just a bunch of cereal boxes in there. That'd

1128
00:58:07.480 --> 00:58:10.119
<v Speaker 1>be funny. As an ex Baptist, Jay, how are you

1129
00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:12.960
<v Speaker 1>able to get comfortable with the marriology and icon veneration

1130
00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:16.239
<v Speaker 1>of Eastern Orthodoxy? This keeps me from trying Orthodoxy.

1131
00:58:17.159 --> 00:58:19.119
<v Speaker 2>I mean, well I wasn't really I didn't go from

1132
00:58:19.159 --> 00:58:23.440
<v Speaker 2>Baptist to Roman Catholic. I went from Baptist to Calvinists,

1133
00:58:23.440 --> 00:58:26.800
<v Speaker 2>so I had kind of a phases of you know,

1134
00:58:26.920 --> 00:58:28.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think for a lot of Baptists, especially

1135
00:58:29.039 --> 00:58:31.199
<v Speaker 2>when I was a Reform Baptist, he's like James White.

1136
00:58:31.239 --> 00:58:34.199
<v Speaker 2>And then the thing that kind of clicked was Covenant theology,

1137
00:58:34.199 --> 00:58:36.519
<v Speaker 2>and then you get into infant baptism. So once you've

1138
00:58:36.519 --> 00:58:39.039
<v Speaker 2>accepted infant baptism, you're kind of moving in the direction

1139
00:58:39.119 --> 00:58:41.360
<v Speaker 2>of Sacramentoism, even if you don't want to admit it.

1140
00:58:42.079 --> 00:58:44.440
<v Speaker 2>And so I remember the first time that I saw

1141
00:58:44.519 --> 00:58:47.800
<v Speaker 2>a relic when I visited my local Roman Colloy church.

1142
00:58:47.840 --> 00:58:49.960
<v Speaker 2>We had a relic of Saint Jerome and they took

1143
00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:51.679
<v Speaker 2>me in there, and it did weird me out. The

1144
00:58:51.719 --> 00:58:54.079
<v Speaker 2>first time I'd ever seen one. I was like, I

1145
00:58:54.119 --> 00:58:56.599
<v Speaker 2>don't know about this. I mean, but I think over time,

1146
00:58:56.760 --> 00:59:00.039
<v Speaker 2>like you get really comfortable with you know, if you

1147
00:59:00.039 --> 00:59:02.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, go watch the documentary that my buddy Lewis

1148
00:59:02.639 --> 00:59:05.840
<v Speaker 2>made Christian Worshman the Old Testament, because you really see

1149
00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:09.559
<v Speaker 2>the continuity with the way that you know, the ancient

1150
00:59:09.639 --> 00:59:13.199
<v Speaker 2>hebrew people who were the proto Christians, the way that

1151
00:59:13.239 --> 00:59:19.199
<v Speaker 2>they viewed Holy things and objects. I really I just

1152
00:59:19.239 --> 00:59:25.719
<v Speaker 2>came to realize that my Calvinist anti matter, anti image

1153
00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:30.400
<v Speaker 2>position was gnostic. It really wasn't even an ancient Hebrew

1154
00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:35.119
<v Speaker 2>position because they weren't iconoclass. So I guess the more

1155
00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:37.440
<v Speaker 2>that I was around it, the more it kind of

1156
00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:40.639
<v Speaker 2>made sense. I also remember, I mean, I would recommend

1157
00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:43.039
<v Speaker 2>this book even though he's a Roman Catholic, because you

1158
00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:46.280
<v Speaker 2>kind of get the idea that, like if you remarriage

1159
00:59:46.280 --> 00:59:49.000
<v Speaker 2>supper with a lamb by Scott Hahn, I mean, he

1160
00:59:49.079 --> 00:59:51.599
<v Speaker 2>has a good point about preterism at the beginning too.

1161
00:59:52.039 --> 00:59:54.760
<v Speaker 2>The Book of Revelation is a liturgy, and once I

1162
00:59:54.800 --> 00:59:58.679
<v Speaker 2>understood the Book of Revelation as a liturgical service, it's

1163
00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:02.880
<v Speaker 2>full of imagery. It's full of vestiments and elders and

1164
01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:06.760
<v Speaker 2>incense and you know, angels and all this imagery that

1165
01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:09.840
<v Speaker 2>it just made no sense that God's using all this

1166
01:00:09.920 --> 01:00:13.639
<v Speaker 2>imagery but he's against imagery. It's just silly, right.

1167
01:00:16.400 --> 01:00:20.159
<v Speaker 1>Millstash, Hey, fellas, I've been waiting for the both of

1168
01:00:20.199 --> 01:00:21.920
<v Speaker 1>you to speak with each other. There's a couple of

1169
01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:24.199
<v Speaker 1>questions I wanted to ask, but I felt it necessary

1170
01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:26.760
<v Speaker 1>to accompany the questions with my story a conversion is that. Okay,

1171
01:00:26.760 --> 01:00:28.679
<v Speaker 1>he sent me like a couple of things. I saved them.

1172
01:00:29.159 --> 01:00:31.320
<v Speaker 1>But your comments are like broken up into like a

1173
01:00:31.360 --> 01:00:33.840
<v Speaker 1>million pieces. So I'm gonna pull up what I saw.

1174
01:00:34.800 --> 01:00:39.559
<v Speaker 1>There's one one big question here you said, hold on,

1175
01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:43.480
<v Speaker 1>give me one second. Sorry dude, Okay, I'm gonna pull

1176
01:00:43.519 --> 01:00:44.920
<v Speaker 1>up here. I'm gonna pull up the other thing because

1177
01:00:44.920 --> 01:00:46.840
<v Speaker 1>you sent like a million questions in here, I'll pull

1178
01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:49.519
<v Speaker 1>up the one I was. I was raised in a

1179
01:00:49.559 --> 01:00:52.760
<v Speaker 1>Calvary chapel in southern California. Like many others, I joined

1180
01:00:52.760 --> 01:00:55.199
<v Speaker 1>Marine Corps. I joined the Marine Corps and ended up

1181
01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:58.760
<v Speaker 1>falling away from the Lord. I never became an atheist, however,

1182
01:00:58.920 --> 01:01:03.079
<v Speaker 1>so I guess you're agnostic. I met my wife overseas

1183
01:01:03.119 --> 01:01:07.800
<v Speaker 1>in Kazakhstan, so she's Muslim. So my first question as

1184
01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:10.519
<v Speaker 1>a Catechuman, how can I show her Christ? How can

1185
01:01:10.559 --> 01:01:13.480
<v Speaker 1>I show her orthodoxy? Understand it may be detrimental to

1186
01:01:13.599 --> 01:01:15.960
<v Speaker 1>my marriage if I quote unquote debate with her. So

1187
01:01:16.039 --> 01:01:16.559
<v Speaker 1>what do I do?

1188
01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:24.079
<v Speaker 2>Well? I mean, you know, women don't respond to theological

1189
01:01:24.320 --> 01:01:27.679
<v Speaker 2>argumentation the same as dudes, so you might not have

1190
01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:31.840
<v Speaker 2>the most success by kind of arguing, but it can

1191
01:01:31.920 --> 01:01:36.679
<v Speaker 2>be helpful to raise issues that are pretty big, like

1192
01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:41.159
<v Speaker 2>the Islamic dilemma or you know, Mohammed having child brides.

1193
01:01:41.199 --> 01:01:44.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's that's actually the thing that most Muslims

1194
01:01:44.599 --> 01:01:48.159
<v Speaker 2>leave Islam over, is actually the Mohammed child bride issue.

1195
01:01:48.199 --> 01:01:50.079
<v Speaker 2>When you know, I'm always over here trying to think

1196
01:01:50.079 --> 01:01:52.559
<v Speaker 2>about Allah's attributes and all that. Like, they don't really

1197
01:01:52.639 --> 01:01:55.239
<v Speaker 2>leave Islam because of that kind of stuff. Usually sometimes

1198
01:01:55.239 --> 01:01:57.599
<v Speaker 2>they do, but so you might want to focus on

1199
01:01:57.679 --> 01:02:01.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of those more glaring problems. Fart Hadith's I mean,

1200
01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:04.840
<v Speaker 2>this kind of silly stuff like that, as of Satan farts,

1201
01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:08.719
<v Speaker 2>which he doesn't have gut. He doesn't have a human gut,

1202
01:02:08.800 --> 01:02:10.320
<v Speaker 2>so I don't know how you would fart. But I

1203
01:02:10.320 --> 01:02:12.880
<v Speaker 2>mean it's just kind of like there's these really weird

1204
01:02:12.920 --> 01:02:15.480
<v Speaker 2>things that could probably plant maybe some seeds of doubt.

1205
01:02:15.519 --> 01:02:20.039
<v Speaker 2>But you know, it just depends on whether she's interested

1206
01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:21.840
<v Speaker 2>in that kind of stuff or not. So you might

1207
01:02:21.880 --> 01:02:24.559
<v Speaker 2>want to just kind of invite her to church, get

1208
01:02:24.559 --> 01:02:26.880
<v Speaker 2>her to watch the Icon documentary something like that.

1209
01:02:27.400 --> 01:02:27.800
<v Speaker 3>Mm hmm.

1210
01:02:28.719 --> 01:02:28.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1211
01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:35.360
<v Speaker 1>Something that Father John Whiteford said, with women oftentimes it's community.

1212
01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:38.760
<v Speaker 2>So I was gonna say people at church, right, community.

1213
01:02:38.360 --> 01:02:41.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if you're able. If you know, like people who

1214
01:02:41.320 --> 01:02:43.079
<v Speaker 1>I don't know their wives go to the church you're

1215
01:02:43.079 --> 01:02:45.920
<v Speaker 1>looking into attending, maybe get together with them. Because what

1216
01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:49.559
<v Speaker 1>I did, you know, because from my background, I was

1217
01:02:49.599 --> 01:02:52.360
<v Speaker 1>an associate pastor at a Protestant church. So you know,

1218
01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:54.719
<v Speaker 1>we were super well connected. We had good friends. My

1219
01:02:54.760 --> 01:02:58.360
<v Speaker 1>wife had all their girlfriends there. She was attended women's groups,

1220
01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:01.239
<v Speaker 1>and you know, we're super plugged in. So the idea

1221
01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:03.800
<v Speaker 1>of moving from you know, one place to another one

1222
01:03:03.920 --> 01:03:07.679
<v Speaker 1>she knows nobody is daunting for anyone, you know. So

1223
01:03:07.760 --> 01:03:10.320
<v Speaker 1>I was very I was very lucky. I met up

1224
01:03:10.320 --> 01:03:13.679
<v Speaker 1>with Christian Mario actually, and you know, we got to

1225
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:17.480
<v Speaker 1>hang out and chat and had lunch after service, you know,

1226
01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:19.559
<v Speaker 1>with him and his girlfriend. So it was like, oh,

1227
01:03:19.559 --> 01:03:21.599
<v Speaker 1>these are like normal people, like, oh I've got friends here,

1228
01:03:21.679 --> 01:03:23.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, Oh cool, I want to gohea and hang

1229
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:25.239
<v Speaker 1>out with them kind of deals. So that might be

1230
01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:26.920
<v Speaker 1>helpful about.

1231
01:03:26.719 --> 01:03:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Your wife as saying like, how does she respond to

1232
01:03:29.960 --> 01:03:32.119
<v Speaker 2>your orthodox.

1233
01:03:32.800 --> 01:03:38.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean on board now at first

1234
01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:41.840
<v Speaker 1>obviously some pushback for sure, Uh, you know, a couple

1235
01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:46.199
<v Speaker 1>not not for very long though. The way that I'm

1236
01:03:46.360 --> 01:03:49.159
<v Speaker 1>very blessed to have the wife that I have because

1237
01:03:49.159 --> 01:03:51.400
<v Speaker 1>she just kind of trusts me, you know what I mean,

1238
01:03:51.480 --> 01:03:56.920
<v Speaker 1>Like I've I've I've guided us through you know, crazy

1239
01:03:56.960 --> 01:03:58.800
<v Speaker 1>waters in the past, so she just kind of trusts

1240
01:03:58.840 --> 01:04:02.880
<v Speaker 1>my judgment. Uh. But also I think the key is

1241
01:04:04.320 --> 01:04:06.199
<v Speaker 1>I've got a good kind of sense of when not

1242
01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:08.599
<v Speaker 1>to push an issue. So the days she's maybe a

1243
01:04:08.639 --> 01:04:12.440
<v Speaker 1>little more in her feelings or something, I'm not going

1244
01:04:12.440 --> 01:04:13.840
<v Speaker 1>to push the issue. I'm just gonna go do the

1245
01:04:13.880 --> 01:04:14.599
<v Speaker 1>dishes or something.

1246
01:04:14.679 --> 01:04:17.280
<v Speaker 2>No, when I said your transition, I meant your gender transition.

1247
01:04:17.960 --> 01:04:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh how does she handle that?

1248
01:04:19.480 --> 01:04:24.760
<v Speaker 1>And I'm just sure that's funny? Uh No, but she's

1249
01:04:24.880 --> 01:04:29.199
<v Speaker 1>uh in all, in all seriousness, now she's us she's

1250
01:04:29.239 --> 01:04:33.159
<v Speaker 1>awesome with that. Let's see, Oh you sent in hold On,

1251
01:04:33.199 --> 01:04:34.719
<v Speaker 1>you sent them something else. Let me get to your

1252
01:04:34.760 --> 01:04:37.719
<v Speaker 1>thing real quick. Oh you were saying, gosh, I can't

1253
01:04:37.719 --> 01:04:40.599
<v Speaker 1>find your other comment. But this guy said his uh,

1254
01:04:41.400 --> 01:04:44.800
<v Speaker 1>his daughter had passed away, so I guess he was saying.

1255
01:04:44.880 --> 01:04:47.760
<v Speaker 1>What I found very comforting was that the Orthodox celebrate

1256
01:04:47.800 --> 01:04:51.440
<v Speaker 1>the Martyr Paris on my birthday, patron saint of unbaptized babies.

1257
01:04:52.199 --> 01:04:54.679
<v Speaker 1>My second question directed at Jay, can I hold on

1258
01:04:54.719 --> 01:04:57.280
<v Speaker 1>to that comfort that my daughter may be in heaven.

1259
01:04:58.559 --> 01:05:00.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean in the Orthoury Church, we don't know

1260
01:05:00.360 --> 01:05:05.400
<v Speaker 2>anybody's destiny, and there's prayers for commending the non orthodox

1261
01:05:05.480 --> 01:05:08.559
<v Speaker 2>to God, so you know, we leave that up to God.

1262
01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:14.079
<v Speaker 1>All right, let me get back up these questions here.

1263
01:05:20.519 --> 01:05:22.639
<v Speaker 1>What's the date for when you'll be on Ruslan show?

1264
01:05:23.280 --> 01:05:24.599
<v Speaker 1>Are you going back on Ruslan show?

1265
01:05:25.480 --> 01:05:28.159
<v Speaker 2>Now that I'm where? I mean, I was on Ruslan's

1266
01:05:28.159 --> 01:05:30.360
<v Speaker 2>show a few months ago. Maybe they didn't know I

1267
01:05:30.440 --> 01:05:30.840
<v Speaker 2>was on there.

1268
01:05:31.679 --> 01:05:36.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Could the burning bush be an energetic manifestation of

1269
01:05:36.800 --> 01:05:37.239
<v Speaker 1>the Father?

1270
01:05:38.760 --> 01:05:40.360
<v Speaker 2>I know, I think all the church fathers are in

1271
01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:43.440
<v Speaker 2>the scripture is very clear that that's the Son. You know,

1272
01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:46.719
<v Speaker 2>I think Jesus identifies himself as the one speaking. If

1273
01:05:46.760 --> 01:05:49.880
<v Speaker 2>you read Exos three and then twenty three, the voice

1274
01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:53.000
<v Speaker 2>that's speaking out of the bush is identified as the

1275
01:05:53.079 --> 01:05:57.599
<v Speaker 2>same angel presence in chapter twenty three, and that's where

1276
01:05:57.599 --> 01:06:00.440
<v Speaker 2>God says, I will put my name in this angel

1277
01:06:00.519 --> 01:06:03.360
<v Speaker 2>that will go before you. So it's the same voice

1278
01:06:03.400 --> 01:06:06.079
<v Speaker 2>speaking out of the burning bush. And when I mentioned

1279
01:06:06.119 --> 01:06:09.800
<v Speaker 2>an energetic menifestation proper to the Father, I just referenced

1280
01:06:09.920 --> 01:06:12.599
<v Speaker 2>the case of where you know, the Father says this

1281
01:06:12.679 --> 01:06:15.719
<v Speaker 2>is my beloved son, you know, clearly, that's at the

1282
01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:21.360
<v Speaker 2>Baptism of Christ, at Theophany, that's the Father speaking clearly

1283
01:06:21.480 --> 01:06:24.679
<v Speaker 2>in the tongues of fire. At Pentecost, that's the Holy Spirit.

1284
01:06:25.599 --> 01:06:30.599
<v Speaker 2>But we don't have any incarnation of the Father or

1285
01:06:30.639 --> 01:06:34.559
<v Speaker 2>the Holy Spirit. We have these manifestations, which the Icon Council,

1286
01:06:34.719 --> 01:06:38.679
<v Speaker 2>the Moscow Icon councils say are the energetic manifestations proper

1287
01:06:39.320 --> 01:06:43.599
<v Speaker 2>to those persons, but they are not the hypostaces themselves incarnate.

1288
01:06:43.960 --> 01:06:46.480
<v Speaker 2>And really they're just trying to guard against the idea

1289
01:06:46.559 --> 01:06:48.639
<v Speaker 2>that the Roman Catholics were pushing that you could have

1290
01:06:48.800 --> 01:06:53.000
<v Speaker 2>this old man Jesus next to an old man God,

1291
01:06:53.079 --> 01:06:56.000
<v Speaker 2>the Father next to Jesus, and the Holy Spirit kind

1292
01:06:56.039 --> 01:06:58.800
<v Speaker 2>of shooting out between them, which is philly oquay. So

1293
01:06:58.840 --> 01:07:00.920
<v Speaker 2>they're really just trying to guard again, it's that stuff

1294
01:07:01.480 --> 01:07:04.480
<v Speaker 2>with weird kind of you know, and they kind of

1295
01:07:04.519 --> 01:07:07.559
<v Speaker 2>call it pagan too, right, Like God, the Father isn't

1296
01:07:07.599 --> 01:07:10.639
<v Speaker 2>an old man, he didn't become incarnate, he doesn't have

1297
01:07:10.679 --> 01:07:13.679
<v Speaker 2>a body. Jesus says, no one has seen the Father

1298
01:07:13.719 --> 01:07:17.519
<v Speaker 2>at any time, so it's really not proper to have

1299
01:07:17.639 --> 01:07:20.760
<v Speaker 2>that kind of imagery. But I think that pretty clearly. No,

1300
01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:24.760
<v Speaker 2>the all, all of the Theophanic manifestations in the Old Testament,

1301
01:07:24.840 --> 01:07:28.280
<v Speaker 2>even though they're trinitarian, because anytime one person of the

1302
01:07:28.280 --> 01:07:30.599
<v Speaker 2>trinities there the other the other two are as well,

1303
01:07:30.960 --> 01:07:33.440
<v Speaker 2>but they have unique roles and it is not the

1304
01:07:33.559 --> 01:07:37.400
<v Speaker 2>Father's role to be incarnate, hence it is the son.

1305
01:07:40.239 --> 01:07:43.840
<v Speaker 1>Can you quickly define personhood? I can't conceptualize the Holy

1306
01:07:43.880 --> 01:07:44.679
<v Speaker 1>Spirit as a person.

1307
01:07:46.079 --> 01:07:49.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and Orthodox theology usually with it, whether it's singular

1308
01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:54.400
<v Speaker 2>or polemis or any earlier church fathers. Hypostasis is persona

1309
01:07:54.519 --> 01:07:58.320
<v Speaker 2>or subject or agent, so it refers to the one

1310
01:07:58.360 --> 01:08:02.039
<v Speaker 2>who does the action. So if you think about the

1311
01:08:02.159 --> 01:08:07.639
<v Speaker 2>question of what what refers to the nature, then the

1312
01:08:07.679 --> 01:08:11.920
<v Speaker 2>question of who who refers to the person. So in orthodoxeology,

1313
01:08:12.039 --> 01:08:15.719
<v Speaker 2>the fundamental number one thing is the distinction between nature

1314
01:08:15.719 --> 01:08:18.439
<v Speaker 2>and person. So all Trinitarian theology is based on this

1315
01:08:18.640 --> 01:08:24.680
<v Speaker 2>nature person distinction. We Lossie, My allergies are going crazy

1316
01:08:24.680 --> 01:08:27.880
<v Speaker 2>in Texas, Dude, it's awful. So you've got this thinction

1317
01:08:27.920 --> 01:08:31.680
<v Speaker 2>between nature and person. That's also necessary for human anthropology,

1318
01:08:31.720 --> 01:08:35.880
<v Speaker 2>distinguish between I'm the person, Jay, You're the person, Bob,

1319
01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:42.000
<v Speaker 2>we're unique instantiated individual persons, subjects, or agents. But we

1320
01:08:42.079 --> 01:08:45.000
<v Speaker 2>have the same nature. We both share human nature. So

1321
01:08:45.239 --> 01:08:48.319
<v Speaker 2>nature is human. Nature is universal, but it's instantiated in

1322
01:08:48.359 --> 01:08:52.439
<v Speaker 2>the specific subjects or agents that have that nature. And so,

1323
01:08:52.600 --> 01:08:54.479
<v Speaker 2>but a person is more than just an instance of

1324
01:08:54.479 --> 01:08:57.359
<v Speaker 2>a nature. It's the actual subject, the who, the doer.

1325
01:08:58.359 --> 01:09:00.840
<v Speaker 2>And so in terms of the trend, there are three

1326
01:09:00.880 --> 01:09:04.880
<v Speaker 2>Who's right, there are three subjects or agents with one nature.

1327
01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:08.079
<v Speaker 2>So the Holy Spirit is a person because if you

1328
01:09:08.159 --> 01:09:12.920
<v Speaker 2>read John fourteen fifteen sixteen, you'll notice that he is

1329
01:09:12.960 --> 01:09:15.279
<v Speaker 2>doing the same things that the Father and the Sun

1330
01:09:15.319 --> 01:09:17.399
<v Speaker 2>are doing. That tells you he's a person.

1331
01:09:19.039 --> 01:09:21.000
<v Speaker 1>When you when you talk about something serious and I

1332
01:09:21.079 --> 01:09:22.680
<v Speaker 1>just read the chat and I see something funny, I

1333
01:09:22.720 --> 01:09:24.359
<v Speaker 1>try not to bust out laughing in the middle.

1334
01:09:24.760 --> 01:09:26.800
<v Speaker 2>I know I do the same thing. Dude.

1335
01:09:26.840 --> 01:09:29.039
<v Speaker 1>Why is the channel called antique cleavage?

1336
01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:32.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what it's because I got it right here.

1337
01:09:32.800 --> 01:09:34.600
<v Speaker 2>Don't go on a little bit of this right here.

1338
01:09:38.800 --> 01:09:39.800
<v Speaker 2>That's what this is all about.

1339
01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:43.640
<v Speaker 1>This is that's what that's actually what the channel's about.

1340
01:09:43.680 --> 01:09:44.479
<v Speaker 1>This isn't a Q and A.

1341
01:09:44.600 --> 01:09:47.239
<v Speaker 2>It's just now this is I'm actually in the process

1342
01:09:47.239 --> 01:09:50.479
<v Speaker 2>of transitioning. Like I mentioned, earlier, and so here's cleavage

1343
01:09:50.479 --> 01:09:51.840
<v Speaker 2>to antiquity. Yeah.

1344
01:09:51.880 --> 01:09:53.560
<v Speaker 1>Thanks, I got to ask my wife what she thinks

1345
01:09:53.560 --> 01:09:54.479
<v Speaker 1>about your transition.

1346
01:09:56.760 --> 01:09:59.359
<v Speaker 2>Your wife might get guilty, guilty of these double d's

1347
01:09:59.359 --> 01:09:59.880
<v Speaker 2>over here.

1348
01:10:00.159 --> 01:10:05.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there you go, man, Hey, J and Ben, what

1349
01:10:05.279 --> 01:10:08.439
<v Speaker 1>are the best arguments for the invocation of the Saints

1350
01:10:08.439 --> 01:10:11.239
<v Speaker 1>being biblical and not necromancy, idolatry, etc.

1351
01:10:11.399 --> 01:10:16.760
<v Speaker 2>Etc. There's a Protestant dude. What's that guy's name? He

1352
01:10:16.800 --> 01:10:18.880
<v Speaker 2>always calls in. We had some kind of debate a

1353
01:10:18.880 --> 01:10:23.359
<v Speaker 2>while back. He's the Hispanic dude that's always arguing with

1354
01:10:24.600 --> 01:10:26.960
<v Speaker 2>Sam Schuman. I can't remember that guy's name, but we

1355
01:10:27.039 --> 01:10:28.720
<v Speaker 2>ended up having like a really good, like ten or

1356
01:10:28.760 --> 01:10:31.319
<v Speaker 2>fifteen minute discussion on this, and it got clipped. I

1357
01:10:31.359 --> 01:10:33.920
<v Speaker 2>just can't think of that guy's name. But the best

1358
01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:37.279
<v Speaker 2>argument is that I think Revelation five through nine, as

1359
01:10:37.319 --> 01:10:40.680
<v Speaker 2>we said earlier, if you come to that text with

1360
01:10:40.760 --> 01:10:43.720
<v Speaker 2>the understanding that it is kind of a heavenly liturgical

1361
01:10:43.720 --> 01:10:46.359
<v Speaker 2>worship service, you'll come away with the idea that John

1362
01:10:46.439 --> 01:10:49.279
<v Speaker 2>is interacting with and communicating with the saints in heaven,

1363
01:10:49.640 --> 01:10:52.560
<v Speaker 2>the saints in heaven under the altar, the martyrs, et cetera.

1364
01:10:52.680 --> 01:10:55.439
<v Speaker 2>They're praying for and they're praying for also in pregatory

1365
01:10:56.119 --> 01:10:59.720
<v Speaker 2>vengeance on earth. They're praying for the saints on the earth.

1366
01:11:00.119 --> 01:11:03.159
<v Speaker 2>You have angels offering the prayers of the saints on

1367
01:11:03.239 --> 01:11:06.319
<v Speaker 2>earth in you know, as the as as if it

1368
01:11:06.359 --> 01:11:10.479
<v Speaker 2>was incense. And so no, it's not contradictory. In fact,

1369
01:11:10.760 --> 01:11:15.079
<v Speaker 2>some of the Jewish sects believe that there are intercess

1370
01:11:15.039 --> 01:11:19.680
<v Speaker 2>free prayers. The Book of Amos, Amos intercedes for Israel,

1371
01:11:20.279 --> 01:11:23.279
<v Speaker 2>and God listens to Amos's prayer and he says, if

1372
01:11:23.319 --> 01:11:26.159
<v Speaker 2>you had not prayed, Amos, I would have destroyed Israel.

1373
01:11:26.159 --> 01:11:29.560
<v Speaker 2>But you prayed, you interceded. And so the argument is

1374
01:11:29.560 --> 01:11:32.880
<v Speaker 2>just simply, well, if Amos is interceding as a living

1375
01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:36.319
<v Speaker 2>sinful man on earth, then the saints who have been

1376
01:11:36.560 --> 01:11:40.000
<v Speaker 2>purified in heaven praying, how much more effective are their prayers?

1377
01:11:40.760 --> 01:11:44.159
<v Speaker 2>And David in the Psalms as well, speaks to the angels.

1378
01:11:43.840 --> 01:11:46.239
<v Speaker 2>And remember the psalms are liturgical. I think a lot

1379
01:11:46.239 --> 01:11:47.800
<v Speaker 2>of Protestants and when I was just sweat, when I

1380
01:11:47.840 --> 01:11:50.840
<v Speaker 2>was Protestant, I didn't think about these texts as liturgical text.

1381
01:11:50.920 --> 01:11:52.279
<v Speaker 2>That was just foreign to me. I just thought, oh,

1382
01:11:52.279 --> 01:11:55.640
<v Speaker 2>the Bible is this you know Holy guide Book and

1383
01:11:56.600 --> 01:12:03.000
<v Speaker 2>David's psalms are meant to be temple liturgy songs, right,

1384
01:12:04.279 --> 01:12:10.000
<v Speaker 2>and in that context, he's speaking to angels in the liturgy. Yeah.

1385
01:12:10.039 --> 01:12:13.760
<v Speaker 1>I talked about it briefly too in the in the

1386
01:12:13.800 --> 01:12:15.840
<v Speaker 1>video I did with Orthodox Ethos when I was on

1387
01:12:15.880 --> 01:12:18.199
<v Speaker 1>that show. And one of the things that kind of

1388
01:12:18.239 --> 01:12:20.640
<v Speaker 1>convinced me was I had a conversation with an Anglican

1389
01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:24.960
<v Speaker 1>priest we're talking about where we were talking about where

1390
01:12:24.960 --> 01:12:27.920
<v Speaker 1>Protestants and Orthodox and Roman Catholics agree as far as

1391
01:12:27.960 --> 01:12:29.760
<v Speaker 1>intercession of the saints. We're trying to get to like

1392
01:12:29.800 --> 01:12:33.319
<v Speaker 1>the roots the root disagreement, and it's okay, Well, we

1393
01:12:33.359 --> 01:12:36.199
<v Speaker 1>agree that they're alive. The Saints are alive in heaven

1394
01:12:36.239 --> 01:12:38.840
<v Speaker 1>because God has got living, not the dead. They're praying

1395
01:12:38.880 --> 01:12:41.520
<v Speaker 1>for us. That's, you know, Revelation. I believe Revelation eight

1396
01:12:41.880 --> 01:12:44.279
<v Speaker 1>is the prayers of the saints report out so on

1397
01:12:44.319 --> 01:12:45.960
<v Speaker 1>and so forth, so we know they're alive and they're

1398
01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:48.960
<v Speaker 1>praying in heaven. That the contention is that we feel,

1399
01:12:49.359 --> 01:12:52.159
<v Speaker 1>or we felt I guess I felt as a Protestant

1400
01:12:52.239 --> 01:12:56.479
<v Speaker 1>at that time, the disagreement would be that we shouldn't

1401
01:12:56.520 --> 01:12:59.319
<v Speaker 1>ask the saints to pray for us because prayer should

1402
01:12:59.359 --> 01:13:01.720
<v Speaker 1>be directed to God only. The way that I kind

1403
01:13:01.720 --> 01:13:04.439
<v Speaker 1>of got around that and this is like a people

1404
01:13:04.640 --> 01:13:06.800
<v Speaker 1>people misunderstood this when I said this in the in

1405
01:13:06.840 --> 01:13:10.159
<v Speaker 1>the video. This isn't normative. This is kind of a

1406
01:13:10.159 --> 01:13:13.399
<v Speaker 1>loophole if you are on the fence and maybe you

1407
01:13:13.439 --> 01:13:15.800
<v Speaker 1>don't know, like you're you're uncomfortable with it is just

1408
01:13:15.880 --> 01:13:17.680
<v Speaker 1>to get you to try at one time, which is

1409
01:13:17.720 --> 01:13:20.840
<v Speaker 1>what I did. And look at me now, but ask

1410
01:13:20.920 --> 01:13:23.600
<v Speaker 1>God to ask the theotokos to pray for you, Like

1411
01:13:23.680 --> 01:13:25.560
<v Speaker 1>if you're uncomfortable, you could do that. I mean that's

1412
01:13:25.560 --> 01:13:27.680
<v Speaker 1>what the Anglican priest said to me. He was like,

1413
01:13:27.720 --> 01:13:30.119
<v Speaker 1>that's what That's why I asked God to ask the

1414
01:13:30.079 --> 01:13:32.239
<v Speaker 1>theotokos to pray. And I'm thinking about that in the moment.

1415
01:13:32.279 --> 01:13:34.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, that sounds kind of dumb. But you know what,

1416
01:13:34.800 --> 01:13:36.720
<v Speaker 1>I couldn't think of anything wrong with that at all.

1417
01:13:37.479 --> 01:13:40.560
<v Speaker 1>Uh So I did. And uh I mean it's kind

1418
01:13:40.600 --> 01:13:43.119
<v Speaker 1>of like a little little gateway there for you to,

1419
01:13:43.439 --> 01:13:45.600
<v Speaker 1>I guess, open yourself up to that practice. Because no

1420
01:13:45.640 --> 01:13:49.359
<v Speaker 1>Protestant could point me out anything wrong with asking God

1421
01:13:49.399 --> 01:13:51.239
<v Speaker 1>did do that. They might say it's silly, right, But

1422
01:13:51.279 --> 01:13:53.359
<v Speaker 1>look at James. The Book of James says that the

1423
01:13:53.399 --> 01:13:56.199
<v Speaker 1>prayers of the righteous avail off much. So why wouldn't

1424
01:13:56.199 --> 01:13:58.520
<v Speaker 1>you want the Mother of God to be interceding on

1425
01:13:58.560 --> 01:13:59.439
<v Speaker 1>your behalf before God?

1426
01:13:59.560 --> 01:14:02.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I think Also, let's keep in mind what necromancy

1427
01:14:02.960 --> 01:14:06.479
<v Speaker 2>and all that is. That is you trying to get

1428
01:14:06.680 --> 01:14:10.760
<v Speaker 2>forbidden information, secret information from a spirit that is not

1429
01:14:10.800 --> 01:14:15.520
<v Speaker 2>what's happening in terms of liturgical prayer and asking for

1430
01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:18.880
<v Speaker 2>other people to pray for you. There is no special

1431
01:14:18.920 --> 01:14:22.079
<v Speaker 2>gnosis that the Saint comes and gives you some divination

1432
01:14:22.239 --> 01:14:25.039
<v Speaker 2>or something like that. So it's not necromancy. When they

1433
01:14:25.039 --> 01:14:27.399
<v Speaker 2>ask Jesus, you know, the Pharisees asked, Jesus says, and

1434
01:14:27.520 --> 01:14:31.079
<v Speaker 2>John he says, God is not the God of the dead.

1435
01:14:31.119 --> 01:14:33.960
<v Speaker 2>He's got a living So they live to God, and

1436
01:14:34.000 --> 01:14:36.359
<v Speaker 2>so they are not the dead, they are alive to God.

1437
01:14:38.800 --> 01:14:41.159
<v Speaker 1>I just want to say thanks for the content recently

1438
01:14:41.199 --> 01:14:43.920
<v Speaker 1>found both of you and have been so impressed and grateful. Hey,

1439
01:14:43.920 --> 01:14:48.199
<v Speaker 1>thanks man, appreciate it. Hey guys, big fan for Jay.

1440
01:14:48.680 --> 01:14:50.960
<v Speaker 1>Do you think there are other philosophical arguments for God

1441
01:14:50.960 --> 01:14:54.479
<v Speaker 1>that rank like tag such as contingency argument argument God

1442
01:14:54.479 --> 01:14:54.800
<v Speaker 1>bless you.

1443
01:14:54.880 --> 01:14:56.239
<v Speaker 2>No, I don't think any of them are very good.

1444
01:14:56.359 --> 01:15:00.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you can reformulate most of the cloud arguments

1445
01:15:00.800 --> 01:15:03.319
<v Speaker 2>to be a kind of transcendental argument to make them better.

1446
01:15:03.880 --> 01:15:07.319
<v Speaker 2>But the problem is not whether there's causation or whether

1447
01:15:07.359 --> 01:15:09.479
<v Speaker 2>there's t lo's or something like that. It's just that

1448
01:15:09.720 --> 01:15:13.680
<v Speaker 2>depending upon the atheists or the how cunning or smart

1449
01:15:13.680 --> 01:15:16.079
<v Speaker 2>the atheist is that you're talking to, they're going to

1450
01:15:16.199 --> 01:15:20.439
<v Speaker 2>just question the things that the contingency argument assumes. So,

1451
01:15:20.880 --> 01:15:22.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean it might be it might work to argue

1452
01:15:22.920 --> 01:15:25.359
<v Speaker 2>that way with like your coworker or something like that.

1453
01:15:25.399 --> 01:15:28.079
<v Speaker 2>But if you encounter an intelligent atheist professor and you

1454
01:15:28.119 --> 01:15:30.279
<v Speaker 2>try to use a contingency argument, he's going to shoot

1455
01:15:30.319 --> 01:15:32.680
<v Speaker 2>it down right away. So you need be prepared for

1456
01:15:33.279 --> 01:15:37.600
<v Speaker 2>the types of critiques that skeptical atheists professors are going

1457
01:15:37.640 --> 01:15:41.319
<v Speaker 2>to use for those kinds of arguments. Even if they

1458
01:15:42.359 --> 01:15:45.920
<v Speaker 2>work pragmatically to convert a coworker or something like that,

1459
01:15:45.960 --> 01:15:49.760
<v Speaker 2>he's not a sophisticated philosophy dork. I still think we

1460
01:15:49.760 --> 01:15:52.399
<v Speaker 2>should strive to have, you know, the stronger arguments. So no,

1461
01:15:52.439 --> 01:15:57.000
<v Speaker 2>I would not use the contingency argument unless I've reformulated it.

1462
01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:01.199
<v Speaker 2>As a transcendental version of that kind of an argument,

1463
01:16:01.199 --> 01:16:06.000
<v Speaker 2>where like like I like, let's say causation, right, Like,

1464
01:16:06.039 --> 01:16:08.479
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to make a cosmological argument, but I'll say,

1465
01:16:08.840 --> 01:16:14.239
<v Speaker 2>if you don't have the principle of causation as a presupposition,

1466
01:16:15.560 --> 01:16:19.279
<v Speaker 2>then knowledge and the world is impossible.

1467
01:16:21.600 --> 01:16:25.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. We were just using tag today, me, Mario and

1468
01:16:25.239 --> 01:16:29.279
<v Speaker 1>Luigi when an atheist called into Mario's livestream. I was

1469
01:16:29.319 --> 01:16:31.479
<v Speaker 1>sitting there. I was I was multitasking, I was lifting

1470
01:16:31.479 --> 01:16:35.800
<v Speaker 1>weights and and talking to atheists. That's kind of cool

1471
01:16:36.720 --> 01:16:41.159
<v Speaker 1>actually fun fact, my my sister, who was an atheist,

1472
01:16:42.079 --> 01:16:45.119
<v Speaker 1>became a Christian after hearing me run TAG, which I

1473
01:16:45.199 --> 01:16:48.199
<v Speaker 1>learned from your channel. By the way, Jay On her

1474
01:16:48.319 --> 01:16:50.359
<v Speaker 1>now husband, who's her boyfriend at the time. So she

1475
01:16:50.399 --> 01:16:53.560
<v Speaker 1>overheard that argument and I was running tag. I got

1476
01:16:53.600 --> 01:16:55.760
<v Speaker 1>him to get to the point where I was like, dude,

1477
01:16:55.760 --> 01:16:57.600
<v Speaker 1>can you even tell me if the watermelon on the

1478
01:16:57.640 --> 01:17:01.479
<v Speaker 1>table exists through your paradigm? And he's like no, okay.

1479
01:17:01.800 --> 01:17:03.720
<v Speaker 1>MYS was like, all right, this is stupid. I can't

1480
01:17:03.720 --> 01:17:05.279
<v Speaker 1>be an atheist anymore. So it's just kind of to

1481
01:17:05.319 --> 01:17:07.199
<v Speaker 1>point out the ridiculousness of that it is.

1482
01:17:07.279 --> 01:17:09.439
<v Speaker 2>And I mean When you say that, people be like,

1483
01:17:10.079 --> 01:17:12.920
<v Speaker 2>what do you mean is does the watermelon exist? It's

1484
01:17:12.960 --> 01:17:15.520
<v Speaker 2>so ridiculous. It's not because if you read somebody like

1485
01:17:15.520 --> 01:17:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Bertrand Russell, I mean in Scientific Outlook, he admits in

1486
01:17:20.960 --> 01:17:25.199
<v Speaker 2>the first several chapters, he's like, modern science and skepticism

1487
01:17:25.239 --> 01:17:27.279
<v Speaker 2>has gotten us to this point where we can't even

1488
01:17:27.840 --> 01:17:30.880
<v Speaker 2>know or prove that there is an external world. Yeah,

1489
01:17:31.000 --> 01:17:32.800
<v Speaker 2>he says, there is no proof for it. We don't know.

1490
01:17:32.880 --> 01:17:35.600
<v Speaker 2>We just have to act like there is one. You

1491
01:17:35.640 --> 01:17:38.000
<v Speaker 2>can't prove it though. So in other words, the top

1492
01:17:38.039 --> 01:17:38.920
<v Speaker 2>atheist admit that.

1493
01:17:42.600 --> 01:17:44.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so did the guy that called in in that livestream.

1494
01:17:44.680 --> 01:17:46.159
<v Speaker 1>He was like, oh yeah, I'm a radical skeptic. I

1495
01:17:46.159 --> 01:17:48.039
<v Speaker 1>don't know anything. Okay, great words the debate.

1496
01:17:48.640 --> 01:17:51.520
<v Speaker 2>Exactly how are we going to use logic to debate

1497
01:17:51.560 --> 01:17:53.359
<v Speaker 2>when you don't know that there is such a thing?

1498
01:17:53.760 --> 01:17:54.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly.

1499
01:17:55.399 --> 01:17:55.520
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

1500
01:17:56.079 --> 01:17:58.520
<v Speaker 1>You guys should tag team Islam, Jay and Cleeve to

1501
01:17:58.520 --> 01:18:05.000
<v Speaker 1>Antiquity versus Jake the Muscle Metaphysician and Trent Direrty. Trent's

1502
01:18:05.039 --> 01:18:08.439
<v Speaker 1>Trent's Trench is retired. You won't see any more videos

1503
01:18:09.199 --> 01:18:15.680
<v Speaker 1>from Trent, So no Trent Trent Doherty, the Roman Catholic guy. Yeah,

1504
01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:18.000
<v Speaker 1>he's done. He's not he's not doing any more stuff

1505
01:18:18.119 --> 01:18:21.159
<v Speaker 1>after after the debate that you had, and then I

1506
01:18:21.199 --> 01:18:25.520
<v Speaker 1>debated him shortly after that, he's not coming back. I

1507
01:18:25.520 --> 01:18:27.439
<v Speaker 1>mean unless he changes his mind. But that was the

1508
01:18:27.520 --> 01:18:29.720
<v Speaker 1>last word, was he's done.

1509
01:18:31.760 --> 01:18:33.600
<v Speaker 2>Well. He didn't do too well.

1510
01:18:33.720 --> 01:18:36.560
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I don't I don't blame him. Pray for

1511
01:18:36.600 --> 01:18:39.079
<v Speaker 1>that guy, Pray that he becomes Orthodox. There about that

1512
01:18:39.960 --> 01:18:43.239
<v Speaker 1>serious question, if did I get he he wants to

1513
01:18:43.239 --> 01:18:47.439
<v Speaker 1>know if you're willing to debate the true Orthodox guy, nft.

1514
01:18:47.920 --> 01:18:50.640
<v Speaker 2>I've been. They've been pushing that for years. I'm not issued.

1515
01:18:52.520 --> 01:18:54.800
<v Speaker 1>Temple art. My dad went to high school with Mike

1516
01:18:54.880 --> 01:18:57.439
<v Speaker 1>Tate from DC Talk, was friends with those guys before

1517
01:18:57.439 --> 01:19:03.239
<v Speaker 1>and during their blow up. Cool tuning in from Jordanville,

1518
01:19:03.960 --> 01:19:06.960
<v Speaker 1>curious to hear Ben's current take on the Biblical canons

1519
01:19:07.000 --> 01:19:10.560
<v Speaker 1>affirmed at Trulla from y'all's origin. I wasn't talking about

1520
01:19:10.560 --> 01:19:12.920
<v Speaker 1>the Bible canon at the end that debate. We were

1521
01:19:12.920 --> 01:19:16.880
<v Speaker 1>talking about Yeah, so I don't know what you're what

1522
01:19:17.000 --> 01:19:19.399
<v Speaker 1>you mean, I will be doing so for those of

1523
01:19:19.479 --> 01:19:23.319
<v Speaker 1>you that are interested, I will be doing like debunk

1524
01:19:23.399 --> 01:19:26.520
<v Speaker 1>myself streams so I'm gonna go back and pull up

1525
01:19:26.560 --> 01:19:30.039
<v Speaker 1>my my old arguments, and I'll be watching through my

1526
01:19:30.159 --> 01:19:34.960
<v Speaker 1>videos and critiquing my arguments. I'm gonna have I forget

1527
01:19:34.960 --> 01:19:37.079
<v Speaker 1>the name of that Lutheran pastor I've had on my

1528
01:19:37.119 --> 01:19:39.560
<v Speaker 1>show a couple of times, Josh Shuoping, the guy that

1529
01:19:39.720 --> 01:19:42.319
<v Speaker 1>was he was a former Orthodox priest. I had him

1530
01:19:42.359 --> 01:19:46.199
<v Speaker 1>on my show twice, and some of those arguments really

1531
01:19:46.199 --> 01:19:48.920
<v Speaker 1>didn't sit well with me even then, So I was like,

1532
01:19:49.600 --> 01:19:51.079
<v Speaker 1>I think that's probably gonna be the first one I

1533
01:19:51.359 --> 01:19:54.760
<v Speaker 1>go back and debunk, because I get a lot of

1534
01:19:54.760 --> 01:19:58.560
<v Speaker 1>people that will message me and say they were actually

1535
01:19:59.199 --> 01:20:01.720
<v Speaker 1>convinced by some of those and I don't know. For me,

1536
01:20:01.800 --> 01:20:05.520
<v Speaker 1>I think they're like, there's glaring holes in a lot

1537
01:20:05.520 --> 01:20:07.479
<v Speaker 1>of those arguments, so those need to be addressed. First,

1538
01:20:09.439 --> 01:20:12.720
<v Speaker 1>not to brag. I open for skillet at Pillar at

1539
01:20:12.760 --> 01:20:17.640
<v Speaker 1>two fests. Awesome, dude, nice question, Cleeve. If you adopted

1540
01:20:17.680 --> 01:20:20.600
<v Speaker 1>a prayer rule, Jay, what does your prayer rule look like?

1541
01:20:21.680 --> 01:20:23.760
<v Speaker 1>And how often do you confess? Also, what's your Social

1542
01:20:23.800 --> 01:20:25.279
<v Speaker 1>Security number? What's your last one?

1543
01:20:25.319 --> 01:20:27.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? No, I'm not going to answer that. Because I

1544
01:20:27.039 --> 01:20:29.560
<v Speaker 2>do have a spiritual father. You can come meet him

1545
01:20:29.560 --> 01:20:31.920
<v Speaker 2>if you come to the conference, but I'm not going

1546
01:20:31.920 --> 01:20:33.760
<v Speaker 2>to tell you all my personal stuff.

1547
01:20:33.800 --> 01:20:37.880
<v Speaker 1>For one, I'm willing to become Orthodox, But what if

1548
01:20:37.920 --> 01:20:40.279
<v Speaker 1>your parents won't allow you to become one and you

1549
01:20:40.359 --> 01:20:41.399
<v Speaker 1>live far from the church.

1550
01:20:43.520 --> 01:20:48.359
<v Speaker 2>Usually priests will counsel you that you can kind of

1551
01:20:48.560 --> 01:20:51.560
<v Speaker 2>privately in an interior way of the Orthodox because you

1552
01:20:51.600 --> 01:20:54.119
<v Speaker 2>are under your parents. And then once you're eighteen, you

1553
01:20:54.159 --> 01:20:57.039
<v Speaker 2>can make your own decision and you can move near

1554
01:20:57.119 --> 01:20:58.880
<v Speaker 2>one or you know, do what you want. So that's

1555
01:20:58.960 --> 01:21:00.399
<v Speaker 2>usually what priest wills say.

1556
01:21:03.359 --> 01:21:07.079
<v Speaker 1>Apostolic Christianity is fake. What does the church say about

1557
01:21:07.079 --> 01:21:09.520
<v Speaker 1>the Church of the East and Rome evangelizing a good

1558
01:21:09.600 --> 01:21:10.359
<v Speaker 1>chunk of the world.

1559
01:21:10.439 --> 01:21:18.760
<v Speaker 2>First, I guess you could say that they prepare the

1560
01:21:18.800 --> 01:21:25.039
<v Speaker 2>way for the Orthodox Church. I mean, we're not going

1561
01:21:25.119 --> 01:21:29.159
<v Speaker 2>to make a blanket condemnation that everybody's automatically damned because

1562
01:21:29.199 --> 01:21:34.119
<v Speaker 2>it was heterodox you know, evangelization. But also we will

1563
01:21:34.439 --> 01:21:38.720
<v Speaker 2>just be honest and forth right about what's very lacking

1564
01:21:38.840 --> 01:21:41.800
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of that catechisis and approach. For example,

1565
01:21:41.880 --> 01:21:45.239
<v Speaker 2>think about you know, Roman Catholics love to tell the numbers,

1566
01:21:45.279 --> 01:21:48.560
<v Speaker 2>the numbers, the numbers, but a lot of those converts

1567
01:21:48.680 --> 01:21:51.359
<v Speaker 2>in Latin and South America. I mean they practice condomble a,

1568
01:21:51.439 --> 01:21:55.640
<v Speaker 2>they practice santaria. The notion of conversion is very very loose.

1569
01:21:55.920 --> 01:21:59.119
<v Speaker 2>It's it's very tied up with the you know, the

1570
01:21:59.159 --> 01:22:02.560
<v Speaker 2>indigenous pagan traditions. And I don't mean picking in a

1571
01:22:02.600 --> 01:22:06.960
<v Speaker 2>baptizing Christianity type of way, but no like actual you know,

1572
01:22:07.119 --> 01:22:10.720
<v Speaker 2>forbidden practices type of stuff. So it's like you can

1573
01:22:10.800 --> 01:22:14.319
<v Speaker 2>say that, yeah, we got all the numbers, but the

1574
01:22:14.399 --> 01:22:17.920
<v Speaker 2>numbers don't matter if people aren't getting good catechises. In fact,

1575
01:22:17.920 --> 01:22:20.800
<v Speaker 2>it might even make it worse. I'm not saying that

1576
01:22:20.920 --> 01:22:25.479
<v Speaker 2>Mexican human sacrifice should should have remained and that the

1577
01:22:25.960 --> 01:22:29.680
<v Speaker 2>Spanish shouldn't have you know, Christianized you know Mexico or whatever.

1578
01:22:29.760 --> 01:22:33.720
<v Speaker 2>But I'm saying when you have bad catechises a lot

1579
01:22:33.720 --> 01:22:36.920
<v Speaker 2>of times that can be even worse than no catequiss

1580
01:22:36.960 --> 01:22:41.279
<v Speaker 2>So you know, there's no easy answers to that. But

1581
01:22:41.359 --> 01:22:45.039
<v Speaker 2>I think this even if you're a Roman Catholic or

1582
01:22:45.039 --> 01:22:48.640
<v Speaker 2>you were an Apostolic Christianity person, I mean, the tables

1583
01:22:48.640 --> 01:22:50.840
<v Speaker 2>could be turned. The same question could be asked, like

1584
01:22:53.039 --> 01:22:57.439
<v Speaker 2>what why why did Rome have a problem with the

1585
01:22:57.560 --> 01:23:01.640
<v Speaker 2>yeast splitting for a thousand years, but now after Vatican

1586
01:23:01.680 --> 01:23:04.720
<v Speaker 2>Two where two lungs of the same church, and rat

1587
01:23:04.720 --> 01:23:08.199
<v Speaker 2>Singer says that the East maintained the faith without the papacy.

1588
01:23:08.279 --> 01:23:11.880
<v Speaker 2>So it's a it's just really kind of a a

1589
01:23:11.880 --> 01:23:13.399
<v Speaker 2>difficult question for anybody.

1590
01:23:13.840 --> 01:23:18.000
<v Speaker 1>M Yeah, I was talking about this with dph on

1591
01:23:18.079 --> 01:23:20.319
<v Speaker 1>his show, and he was he was telling me some

1592
01:23:20.359 --> 01:23:23.399
<v Speaker 1>of the uh, I guess into the world claims have

1593
01:23:23.479 --> 01:23:27.079
<v Speaker 1>to do with the Orthodox the actual Gospel getting out

1594
01:23:27.079 --> 01:23:29.720
<v Speaker 1>to all these nations. So I guess there was some

1595
01:23:29.800 --> 01:23:33.479
<v Speaker 1>saint prophecy that was talking about the Orthodox Gospel has

1596
01:23:33.479 --> 01:23:35.359
<v Speaker 1>to reach all of the nations because of the true Gospel,

1597
01:23:35.439 --> 01:23:36.720
<v Speaker 1>and then then you'll see, h.

1598
01:23:37.039 --> 01:23:39.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I could see that being the case. I don't

1599
01:23:39.479 --> 01:23:42.199
<v Speaker 2>have any hard commitments on that. I would probably tend

1600
01:23:42.239 --> 01:23:47.279
<v Speaker 2>towards that position. I've always still favored an optimistic awmill

1601
01:23:47.399 --> 01:23:50.439
<v Speaker 2>or post millennial type position, so I've never I've never

1602
01:23:50.520 --> 01:23:53.479
<v Speaker 2>been like this sort of pessimistic type of mind, but

1603
01:23:54.760 --> 01:23:57.159
<v Speaker 2>that could be the case. I'm also not really super

1604
01:23:57.199 --> 01:24:00.960
<v Speaker 2>deep into the Elder Saint prophet to see stuff. I'm

1605
01:24:00.960 --> 01:24:04.039
<v Speaker 2>not opposed to it, it's just I don't really get

1606
01:24:04.039 --> 01:24:04.840
<v Speaker 2>into that too much.

1607
01:24:07.079 --> 01:24:09.680
<v Speaker 1>Clarification on that super chat there. I thought you had

1608
01:24:09.680 --> 01:24:14.159
<v Speaker 1>made an argument at one point Trulau accepted multiple biblical canons. Yeah, yeah,

1609
01:24:14.199 --> 01:24:18.359
<v Speaker 1>I did. I mean it's it does you read the

1610
01:24:18.359 --> 01:24:21.560
<v Speaker 1>Council of Trula, It accepts multiple different regional councils, so

1611
01:24:22.359 --> 01:24:23.399
<v Speaker 1>that wasn't in our debate though.

1612
01:24:23.520 --> 01:24:27.079
<v Speaker 2>I think the canon, though it specified the specification is

1613
01:24:27.119 --> 01:24:31.239
<v Speaker 2>that it's Carthage, and Carthage has basically the same canon

1614
01:24:31.319 --> 01:24:36.720
<v Speaker 2>as what the Roman decision that the Council of Rome

1615
01:24:36.800 --> 01:24:40.760
<v Speaker 2>under Damasis has, so Carthage and around the same time

1616
01:24:40.800 --> 01:24:43.760
<v Speaker 2>as Council Rome around the year four hundred. I think

1617
01:24:43.800 --> 01:24:47.439
<v Speaker 2>it's Trelo Mensche specifically, which Carthage they're referring to. I

1618
01:24:47.439 --> 01:24:49.439
<v Speaker 2>don't remember which one it is. I'll talk there's a

1619
01:24:49.439 --> 01:24:52.840
<v Speaker 2>bunch of Carthage, but the one that's about the canon

1620
01:24:52.960 --> 01:24:56.520
<v Speaker 2>is pretty much the same as the Latin canon. Yeah.

1621
01:24:56.600 --> 01:24:58.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. He was talking about a video I did a

1622
01:24:58.119 --> 01:25:02.279
<v Speaker 1>while back that was talking about the orth Cannon, and

1623
01:25:02.359 --> 01:25:05.279
<v Speaker 1>I was mentioning that it that exact point, it matches

1624
01:25:05.319 --> 01:25:08.680
<v Speaker 1>the Latin canon, not necessarily what the Orthodox have, but

1625
01:25:08.720 --> 01:25:11.560
<v Speaker 1>you can look at the the Confession of Dycytheus, which

1626
01:25:11.680 --> 01:25:14.600
<v Speaker 1>will clarify as well. I guess the only asterisk there

1627
01:25:14.600 --> 01:25:16.960
<v Speaker 1>would be it doesn't specify the number of Maccabees. It

1628
01:25:17.000 --> 01:25:20.119
<v Speaker 1>just says the Maccabees. So uh, but you can you

1629
01:25:20.159 --> 01:25:23.359
<v Speaker 1>can point to that which which kind of works in

1630
01:25:23.399 --> 01:25:25.880
<v Speaker 1>our favor too, with the with the additional Maccabees and

1631
01:25:25.920 --> 01:25:30.520
<v Speaker 1>the Georgian cannon too. So let's see. Good question, dude.

1632
01:25:31.039 --> 01:25:33.279
<v Speaker 1>But I'll be again. I'll be doing videos going back

1633
01:25:33.319 --> 01:25:36.000
<v Speaker 1>at debunking my old arguments, so stay tuned for that.

1634
01:25:37.119 --> 01:25:39.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm not asking this to be a smart ass. I'm

1635
01:25:39.960 --> 01:25:42.239
<v Speaker 1>an inquirer to Eastern Orthodox and I'm struggling with a

1636
01:25:42.359 --> 01:25:46.720
<v Speaker 1>letter from Ucbius to Constantine's sister. What bothers me? He

1637
01:25:46.760 --> 01:25:50.000
<v Speaker 1>doesn't clarify the difference between the statues he took from

1638
01:25:50.039 --> 01:25:53.640
<v Speaker 1>it took and from icon I don't understand that last

1639
01:25:53.640 --> 01:25:54.720
<v Speaker 1>part of your question, dude.

1640
01:25:55.399 --> 01:25:57.279
<v Speaker 2>I think some of those people will refer to this

1641
01:25:57.600 --> 01:25:59.600
<v Speaker 2>and they think that I mean, I could be wrong.

1642
01:25:59.640 --> 01:26:01.800
<v Speaker 2>Maybe the it's not what he means. But sometimes this

1643
01:26:01.880 --> 01:26:05.279
<v Speaker 2>argument is brought up if I recall as an argument

1644
01:26:05.319 --> 01:26:09.800
<v Speaker 2>against icons, but I think he's talking about like pagan statues,

1645
01:26:09.960 --> 01:26:14.800
<v Speaker 2>and so sometimes iconoclass take those comments where like Origin

1646
01:26:14.960 --> 01:26:18.159
<v Speaker 2>or Eusebius is saying, and we remove the unholy images

1647
01:26:18.199 --> 01:26:20.520
<v Speaker 2>and with this so that but in the context they're

1648
01:26:20.520 --> 01:26:24.760
<v Speaker 2>actually talking about like pagan gods and you know, like statues,

1649
01:26:25.039 --> 01:26:28.800
<v Speaker 2>if heroes being worshiped. They're not actually talking about the

1650
01:26:28.840 --> 01:26:31.960
<v Speaker 2>types of things using the liturgy. But that may not

1651
01:26:32.000 --> 01:26:32.840
<v Speaker 2>be what he's talking about.

1652
01:26:32.840 --> 01:26:35.760
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, Tyler big super chatty, thank you so much.

1653
01:26:36.119 --> 01:26:38.960
<v Speaker 1>I converted last year. I noticed clergy off and highlight

1654
01:26:39.039 --> 01:26:43.159
<v Speaker 1>seminary credentials, yet the fathers and saints emphasized monastic hes,

1655
01:26:43.159 --> 01:26:46.279
<v Speaker 1>hechasm and illumination of the news. A theologist one who

1656
01:26:46.279 --> 01:26:51.600
<v Speaker 1>praise has orthodoxy drifted towards scholasticism today.

1657
01:26:52.119 --> 01:26:55.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you could probably lodge that criticism with areas

1658
01:26:55.920 --> 01:26:58.840
<v Speaker 2>of the West, but I don't think it's necessarily wrong

1659
01:26:58.920 --> 01:27:02.520
<v Speaker 2>to have the qualification of the criteria. For example, Saint

1660
01:27:02.560 --> 01:27:07.479
<v Speaker 2>Photius was widely known as the most learned man of Bysantheum.

1661
01:27:08.560 --> 01:27:10.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he probably wasn't touting that, But it's also

1662
01:27:10.760 --> 01:27:13.439
<v Speaker 2>part of just the culture today that people list their

1663
01:27:13.520 --> 01:27:19.319
<v Speaker 2>qualifications for speaking on subjects. So I wouldn't necessarily link

1664
01:27:19.439 --> 01:27:22.760
<v Speaker 2>having your PhD and your title or something as necessarily

1665
01:27:22.840 --> 01:27:26.119
<v Speaker 2>meaning that they're not spiritual. I think that would be

1666
01:27:26.159 --> 01:27:31.319
<v Speaker 2>a false either or but I think separate from the titles, Yeah,

1667
01:27:31.319 --> 01:27:33.439
<v Speaker 2>I think everybody in the West has been infected with

1668
01:27:34.359 --> 01:27:38.039
<v Speaker 2>enlightenment and scholastic tendencies. Yeah.

1669
01:27:38.039 --> 01:27:41.840
<v Speaker 1>They were just talking about this on I guess the

1670
01:27:42.439 --> 01:27:45.039
<v Speaker 1>Ancient Faith Radio thing. I popped in for like a second.

1671
01:27:45.359 --> 01:27:48.680
<v Speaker 1>I normally not a huge fan or I haven't really

1672
01:27:48.680 --> 01:27:52.760
<v Speaker 1>watched it too much, but they were saying there was

1673
01:27:52.800 --> 01:27:55.439
<v Speaker 1>a crisis with the convert surge and what they were

1674
01:27:55.439 --> 01:27:58.199
<v Speaker 1>thinking about. They were kind of brainstorming solutions to it,

1675
01:27:58.239 --> 01:28:00.920
<v Speaker 1>and they were saying in the in the American context,

1676
01:28:01.199 --> 01:28:04.039
<v Speaker 1>it's very unique because they will force people want to

1677
01:28:04.079 --> 01:28:07.439
<v Speaker 1>become priests, to travel and go to seminary at specific locations,

1678
01:28:07.479 --> 01:28:10.680
<v Speaker 1>a lot them move. So you're saying maybe adopting the

1679
01:28:10.880 --> 01:28:13.279
<v Speaker 1>model that is present already in the East, which is

1680
01:28:13.359 --> 01:28:18.560
<v Speaker 1>like more of an apprenticeship, like you're you're kind of learning. Yeah,

1681
01:28:18.880 --> 01:28:20.319
<v Speaker 1>so that's what they were talking about on that show.

1682
01:28:20.319 --> 01:28:21.760
<v Speaker 1>I saw it pop back up. That's what I was

1683
01:28:21.760 --> 01:28:27.680
<v Speaker 1>looking at here on my phone here Ortho Christian Orthodox Christianity,

1684
01:28:27.720 --> 01:28:30.079
<v Speaker 1>that news outlet or whatever they were talking about. It's

1685
01:28:30.079 --> 01:28:33.039
<v Speaker 1>like huge crisis Orthodox Church, like, you know, they don't

1686
01:28:33.039 --> 01:28:36.680
<v Speaker 1>have enough priests, so maybe that might be one model

1687
01:28:36.720 --> 01:28:42.079
<v Speaker 1>they moved to. Ye who knows. Question inquirer, why do

1688
01:28:42.279 --> 01:28:46.359
<v Speaker 1>Orthodox give incense to saints and not just God? And

1689
01:28:46.399 --> 01:28:50.119
<v Speaker 1>why is a sceticism like someone in the desert who

1690
01:28:50.279 --> 01:28:53.079
<v Speaker 1>dies in a couple of years considered a positive.

1691
01:28:54.119 --> 01:28:57.359
<v Speaker 2>What the earth one? I would say again, read Revelation

1692
01:28:57.479 --> 01:29:00.600
<v Speaker 2>five or nine, and you'll see the significance of the incense.

1693
01:29:01.399 --> 01:29:05.319
<v Speaker 2>And even though the incense is in front of an

1694
01:29:05.479 --> 01:29:08.439
<v Speaker 2>icon of the saint, the significance is that the saint

1695
01:29:08.560 --> 01:29:10.159
<v Speaker 2>is praying and the prayers are going up to God,

1696
01:29:10.239 --> 01:29:13.079
<v Speaker 2>because that's what's in the Book of Revelation, particularly chapters

1697
01:29:13.119 --> 01:29:16.239
<v Speaker 2>five or nine. But I don't know what you're talking about.

1698
01:29:16.239 --> 01:29:19.119
<v Speaker 2>A person who is going to intentionally die in two years.

1699
01:29:19.119 --> 01:29:25.000
<v Speaker 2>Most people are not called to a aramatic, radical ascetic existence.

1700
01:29:25.079 --> 01:29:27.680
<v Speaker 2>Some people are called to that. And you know, you

1701
01:29:27.720 --> 01:29:30.560
<v Speaker 2>have this tradition of the fools for God. So but

1702
01:29:30.600 --> 01:29:33.399
<v Speaker 2>I mean that's again, you know, in the Orthodox world,

1703
01:29:33.439 --> 01:29:36.840
<v Speaker 2>you're not going into this to do I'm going into

1704
01:29:36.840 --> 01:29:39.880
<v Speaker 2>this because I'm going to be the desert ascetic. You're

1705
01:29:39.880 --> 01:29:42.399
<v Speaker 2>going into it with a spiritual father who's going to

1706
01:29:42.439 --> 01:29:46.279
<v Speaker 2>counsel you. And how many people end up being hermits?

1707
01:29:46.319 --> 01:29:50.439
<v Speaker 2>Not many? Okay, so not everyone is called to that

1708
01:29:50.680 --> 01:29:53.359
<v Speaker 2>or nor is that the appropriate thing for them. So

1709
01:29:53.439 --> 01:29:55.560
<v Speaker 2>God will put you in the situation that you need

1710
01:29:55.600 --> 01:29:58.479
<v Speaker 2>to be in at the right time if you obey God,

1711
01:29:58.600 --> 01:30:02.199
<v Speaker 2>so you don't have to worry about Oh, you know,

1712
01:30:02.279 --> 01:30:04.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm joining a cult where they're gonna like brainwash me

1713
01:30:04.680 --> 01:30:06.760
<v Speaker 2>and I'll be dying in a desert in two years.

1714
01:30:07.840 --> 01:30:10.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah that, yeah, you're thinking of You're thinking of the

1715
01:30:10.920 --> 01:30:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Roman Catholic saints like Saint Catherine of Siana who basically

1716
01:30:15.039 --> 01:30:18.359
<v Speaker 1>starved herself to death, you know that kind of thing.

1717
01:30:18.640 --> 01:30:20.279
<v Speaker 1>I was talking about this with a body of mine

1718
01:30:20.279 --> 01:30:22.840
<v Speaker 1>and he was saying, the modern like the ones that

1719
01:30:22.840 --> 01:30:27.039
<v Speaker 1>were canonized post Vatican two, are always have the craziest backstories.

1720
01:30:27.399 --> 01:30:30.079
<v Speaker 1>You're saying, they're like ripoffs of Orthodox saints, but like

1721
01:30:30.159 --> 01:30:33.960
<v Speaker 1>full of prelst. It's like that the early life or

1722
01:30:34.000 --> 01:30:37.640
<v Speaker 1>whatever their life story is kind of like was, you know,

1723
01:30:37.840 --> 01:30:40.920
<v Speaker 1>received a vision, was given a foreskin ring or something,

1724
01:30:40.960 --> 01:30:44.000
<v Speaker 1>and then starving stars to death was considered a heretic

1725
01:30:44.079 --> 01:30:46.319
<v Speaker 1>and then guess what they were they're canonized, you know,

1726
01:30:46.359 --> 01:30:49.640
<v Speaker 1>woo because somebody was like a fan of them because

1727
01:30:49.680 --> 01:30:52.880
<v Speaker 1>they were Yeah, it's crazy that my.

1728
01:30:52.880 --> 01:30:56.039
<v Speaker 2>Video on histrionic women's Saints is it's exactly what you're

1729
01:30:56.039 --> 01:30:59.600
<v Speaker 2>talking about. But I think it's very different the Orthodox shirts.

1730
01:30:59.600 --> 01:31:02.359
<v Speaker 2>You don't have this sort of like the asceticism is

1731
01:31:02.359 --> 01:31:05.079
<v Speaker 2>not an end in itself. Right in Roman Catholic world

1732
01:31:05.319 --> 01:31:08.760
<v Speaker 2>penance you're doing these things for penance, so you're trying

1733
01:31:08.800 --> 01:31:11.840
<v Speaker 2>to like pay off the temp world debt for the

1734
01:31:11.920 --> 01:31:16.239
<v Speaker 2>sins through these excruciating things. And you know, they had

1735
01:31:16.279 --> 01:31:20.159
<v Speaker 2>the mistranslation from Jerome that you mortify the body, which

1736
01:31:21.399 --> 01:31:24.520
<v Speaker 2>actually was talking about repentance changing the mind. It's not

1737
01:31:24.560 --> 01:31:28.039
<v Speaker 2>saying you like literally punish yourself as if that sort

1738
01:31:28.079 --> 01:31:30.399
<v Speaker 2>of pays off God. So I think certain things contributed

1739
01:31:30.439 --> 01:31:34.000
<v Speaker 2>to this extreme in the Romancalolic world. A lot of

1740
01:31:34.000 --> 01:31:36.239
<v Speaker 2>that's taking place in the Middle Ages. That's too deep

1741
01:31:36.279 --> 01:31:39.079
<v Speaker 2>to go into right now, But they really just lost

1742
01:31:39.119 --> 01:31:41.560
<v Speaker 2>the goodness of the body. In the Roman Catholic world,

1743
01:31:41.560 --> 01:31:45.680
<v Speaker 2>the wholeness of man, focusing on the intellect, and because

1744
01:31:45.720 --> 01:31:47.279
<v Speaker 2>they don't have the notion of the news. So in

1745
01:31:47.399 --> 01:31:51.920
<v Speaker 2>Orthodoxy there's body, mind, spirit or heart and remo. Catholic

1746
01:31:52.000 --> 01:31:54.960
<v Speaker 2>Church doesn't have that. It just has soul body, and

1747
01:31:55.399 --> 01:31:58.439
<v Speaker 2>the soul is really the intellect.

1748
01:32:00.680 --> 01:32:04.479
<v Speaker 1>How familiar is j with Metropolitan Saba? What are his thoughts?

1749
01:32:04.479 --> 01:32:06.119
<v Speaker 1>I admire what I know, but I don't know much.

1750
01:32:06.560 --> 01:32:08.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. People ask me all the time, what

1751
01:32:08.560 --> 01:32:10.399
<v Speaker 2>do you think about Bishop so and so? I don't know.

1752
01:32:10.560 --> 01:32:14.520
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, Yeah, maybe he'll come to the conference where we

1753
01:32:14.560 --> 01:32:19.079
<v Speaker 1>can hang out and get to know. Uh. You speak

1754
01:32:19.119 --> 01:32:20.960
<v Speaker 1>often of the Office of the Keys and how the

1755
01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:23.920
<v Speaker 1>Catholics interpret them as a jurisdiction, preaching, et cetera. What's

1756
01:32:23.920 --> 01:32:24.880
<v Speaker 1>the Catholic source for this?

1757
01:32:25.199 --> 01:32:27.680
<v Speaker 2>I guess I mean that's pretty I mean, off the

1758
01:32:27.680 --> 01:32:29.359
<v Speaker 2>top of my head, I'm not sure, but I don't

1759
01:32:29.399 --> 01:32:32.359
<v Speaker 2>think that's too controversial. If you look up just probably

1760
01:32:32.399 --> 01:32:36.640
<v Speaker 2>the Catholic Encyclopedia or any any standard Roman Catholic theological

1761
01:32:36.640 --> 01:32:40.159
<v Speaker 2>theology manual will tell you that the office of the

1762
01:32:40.199 --> 01:32:42.520
<v Speaker 2>Keys is the those three things.

1763
01:32:44.039 --> 01:32:46.840
<v Speaker 1>It is. It is in the Catholic Encyclopedia. I had

1764
01:32:46.840 --> 01:32:48.920
<v Speaker 1>the same question after your debate, and I looked it up.

1765
01:32:48.960 --> 01:32:52.359
<v Speaker 2>So, I mean, it's something I learned like a long

1766
01:32:52.399 --> 01:32:53.960
<v Speaker 2>time ago, when I was a realman. Catholic, and I

1767
01:32:53.960 --> 01:32:56.079
<v Speaker 2>don't remember the exact sort, but it's pretty easy to

1768
01:32:56.079 --> 01:32:59.000
<v Speaker 2>find topics like that. Yeah, what's up.

1769
01:32:58.920 --> 01:33:01.520
<v Speaker 1>Mario, Thanks for thanks, Thanks for the two bucks man,

1770
01:33:01.680 --> 01:33:06.760
<v Speaker 1>appreciate you. Uh, Alex, he's got a good Orthodox channel there.

1771
01:33:06.960 --> 01:33:10.880
<v Speaker 1>He's an Orthodox lawyer and he does apologetics. Now, Uh,

1772
01:33:11.079 --> 01:33:13.479
<v Speaker 1>Jay is the star of rim Fan in Act seven?

1773
01:33:13.520 --> 01:33:16.800
<v Speaker 1>The modern Star of David. Seems like Saint Stephen accuses

1774
01:33:16.840 --> 01:33:21.079
<v Speaker 1>the Sanhedrin of literally practicing occultism. How is this connected,

1775
01:33:21.119 --> 01:33:23.720
<v Speaker 1>if at all, the demonic influence in geopolitics. Thanks?

1776
01:33:24.119 --> 01:33:26.239
<v Speaker 2>This is a good question. I don't exactly know the

1777
01:33:26.239 --> 01:33:32.039
<v Speaker 2>answer to. I've heard this. Uh yeah, I think it's

1778
01:33:32.079 --> 01:33:36.199
<v Speaker 2>specifically in the septuagen I think the Maserati text doesn't

1779
01:33:36.239 --> 01:33:40.880
<v Speaker 2>say star rem Fan. I don't know if we exactly

1780
01:33:41.000 --> 01:33:43.680
<v Speaker 2>know what the star room Fan is. Uh. It could

1781
01:33:43.720 --> 01:33:47.439
<v Speaker 2>be the six pointed hexagonal, you know star, And there

1782
01:33:47.479 --> 01:33:51.560
<v Speaker 2>could be this sort of you know, tumeltic tradition that

1783
01:33:51.680 --> 01:33:57.039
<v Speaker 2>resurfaces at the time of whenever, you know, the rabbi

1784
01:33:57.079 --> 01:33:59.760
<v Speaker 2>has decided to use that symbol. I honestly, I mean

1785
01:34:00.000 --> 01:34:04.600
<v Speaker 2>familiar with these theories, I just honestly don't know. I

1786
01:34:04.600 --> 01:34:07.520
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be surprised if it has the same significance.

1787
01:34:08.239 --> 01:34:12.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for the people in chat to laugh, but carey

1788
01:34:12.720 --> 01:34:14.560
<v Speaker 1>thirty eight forty nine, So if you want to laugh,

1789
01:34:14.600 --> 01:34:15.039
<v Speaker 1>go look.

1790
01:34:14.880 --> 01:34:17.359
<v Speaker 2>At that for hoodie. So those are awesome.

1791
01:34:19.479 --> 01:34:22.520
<v Speaker 1>Did you see Tim Gordon crash out over annulments on X.

1792
01:34:22.640 --> 01:34:25.239
<v Speaker 2>I did not. In fact, I kind of had to

1793
01:34:26.119 --> 01:34:27.920
<v Speaker 2>not pay attention to I don't want to get too

1794
01:34:27.960 --> 01:34:31.760
<v Speaker 2>triggered and constantly argue with him. So, I mean we

1795
01:34:31.880 --> 01:34:34.079
<v Speaker 2>chat on we chat on d MS and and like

1796
01:34:34.439 --> 01:34:36.600
<v Speaker 2>on cell text more than anything on Twitter, because I

1797
01:34:36.600 --> 01:34:39.560
<v Speaker 2>don't want to get I'll just argue. I'm too spurgy

1798
01:34:39.640 --> 01:34:41.600
<v Speaker 2>about that. I'll just keep arguing. So I just try

1799
01:34:41.600 --> 01:34:43.000
<v Speaker 2>to avoid it. But I don't know what he said.

1800
01:34:43.520 --> 01:34:46.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I try not to argue in text on like

1801
01:34:46.560 --> 01:34:49.039
<v Speaker 1>ever because it's just annoying. I take too much of

1802
01:34:49.079 --> 01:34:49.520
<v Speaker 1>my time.

1803
01:34:50.760 --> 01:34:54.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm gonna have to go pretty soon. I've got

1804
01:34:54.960 --> 01:34:56.520
<v Speaker 2>something I gotta get to pretty.

1805
01:34:56.279 --> 01:34:58.760
<v Speaker 1>Quick here, sure, no worry. How much time you got

1806
01:34:58.800 --> 01:35:01.720
<v Speaker 1>like five minutes, A couple minutes, okay, all right, let

1807
01:35:01.760 --> 01:35:03.760
<v Speaker 1>me get to a couple So, no, don't send any

1808
01:35:03.760 --> 01:35:05.520
<v Speaker 1>more super chats. I'm gonna get to a couple that

1809
01:35:05.560 --> 01:35:06.600
<v Speaker 1>are that are good questions.

1810
01:35:06.680 --> 01:35:07.039
<v Speaker 2>Let's see.

1811
01:35:08.119 --> 01:35:22.319
<v Speaker 3>Um, okay, hold on, let's see whatever.

1812
01:35:22.119 --> 01:35:25.319
<v Speaker 1>Prog bull can a liberal be Christian? That's an easy question.

1813
01:35:26.600 --> 01:35:30.039
<v Speaker 2>No, I mean I assume you mean like pro abortion

1814
01:35:30.199 --> 01:35:34.119
<v Speaker 2>and like obviously those things are fundamentally incompatible with basic

1815
01:35:34.199 --> 01:35:35.079
<v Speaker 2>Christian principles.

1816
01:35:35.840 --> 01:35:41.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm almost done with Saint Maximus. Two hundred chapters

1817
01:35:41.119 --> 01:35:43.520
<v Speaker 1>on theology, not well formed on Eastern philosophy.

1818
01:35:45.199 --> 01:35:46.680
<v Speaker 2>Take this phone call. Can you hold on a second?

1819
01:35:46.840 --> 01:35:50.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, Let's see if there's anything in here that

1820
01:35:50.520 --> 01:35:57.399
<v Speaker 1>I can answer. Okay, this is this guy's This guy's

1821
01:35:57.439 --> 01:35:59.199
<v Speaker 1>a Luther and he always pops up in my chat.

1822
01:35:59.479 --> 01:36:03.960
<v Speaker 1>He's fun. Dude. Uh Jay, what's your workout regimen? Why

1823
01:36:04.000 --> 01:36:06.279
<v Speaker 1>has been lifting weights but still fat?

1824
01:36:06.800 --> 01:36:07.039
<v Speaker 2>Dude?

1825
01:36:07.079 --> 01:36:11.000
<v Speaker 1>It's over. It's over, man. I gotta, I gotta, I

1826
01:36:11.039 --> 01:36:13.359
<v Speaker 1>gotta enter into my cut season. You know, I got

1827
01:36:13.359 --> 01:36:16.039
<v Speaker 1>the I got the gains. I do have to trim

1828
01:36:16.079 --> 01:36:18.279
<v Speaker 1>down a little bit though. I started intermittent fasting. I

1829
01:36:18.319 --> 01:36:21.119
<v Speaker 1>was doing keto for a while, and you know, I

1830
01:36:21.119 --> 01:36:24.279
<v Speaker 1>did jiu jitsu and stuff for cardio. But uh, I'm

1831
01:36:24.279 --> 01:36:28.359
<v Speaker 1>hoping I'm hoping that intermittent fasting plus keto combo. It's

1832
01:36:28.399 --> 01:36:32.880
<v Speaker 1>gonna really shred down, shred down the uh shred down

1833
01:36:32.880 --> 01:36:35.239
<v Speaker 1>the weight there. But I want to keep I don't

1834
01:36:35.239 --> 01:36:36.840
<v Speaker 1>want to like, I don't want to diet and like

1835
01:36:36.920 --> 01:36:39.920
<v Speaker 1>lose my gains though you know I have like noodle

1836
01:36:39.920 --> 01:36:45.319
<v Speaker 1>alarms or something that'd be anoint Uh. You said arguments

1837
01:36:45.319 --> 01:36:48.960
<v Speaker 1>from the Biblical canon against Protestants aren't convincing to you. Why, Jay,

1838
01:36:49.000 --> 01:36:50.760
<v Speaker 1>do you think Cleaves reasoning is fair? Well, we kind

1839
01:36:50.760 --> 01:36:52.800
<v Speaker 1>of talked about it earlier where I was talking about

1840
01:36:52.840 --> 01:36:55.920
<v Speaker 1>the Now people get upset when I talk about this

1841
01:36:55.960 --> 01:36:59.399
<v Speaker 1>because they're like, oh, no, the canon conundrum converted me.

1842
01:36:59.520 --> 01:37:02.039
<v Speaker 1>So this makes retarded or something. You know, I don't

1843
01:37:02.039 --> 01:37:03.680
<v Speaker 1>think that's the case. If you think it's a good argument,

1844
01:37:03.720 --> 01:37:04.159
<v Speaker 1>go ahead.

1845
01:37:03.960 --> 01:37:04.399
<v Speaker 2>And use it.

1846
01:37:04.920 --> 01:37:08.359
<v Speaker 1>I'm just saying there are holes in the argument that

1847
01:37:08.399 --> 01:37:11.079
<v Speaker 1>you could poke, and I have poked holes in the

1848
01:37:11.199 --> 01:37:14.800
<v Speaker 1>argument when I did debates with Granted he's not the

1849
01:37:14.800 --> 01:37:17.840
<v Speaker 1>best debater, but he's a nice enough guy. What was

1850
01:37:17.880 --> 01:37:21.960
<v Speaker 1>his name, Cameron Riiker, that Catholic guy. If you want

1851
01:37:21.960 --> 01:37:23.479
<v Speaker 1>to go look at some of the arguments I put

1852
01:37:23.520 --> 01:37:26.720
<v Speaker 1>forth on that, it was there. But I mean I

1853
01:37:26.760 --> 01:37:28.880
<v Speaker 1>always held to a two tier view so some people

1854
01:37:28.920 --> 01:37:32.119
<v Speaker 1>get confused and they think the argument is for a

1855
01:37:32.199 --> 01:37:35.199
<v Speaker 1>strict sixty six canon. That wasn't really the argument. The

1856
01:37:35.279 --> 01:37:38.600
<v Speaker 1>argument is for a two tier view and that the

1857
01:37:38.720 --> 01:37:43.000
<v Speaker 1>Roman Catholic modern view is incorrect because they hold them

1858
01:37:43.000 --> 01:37:46.479
<v Speaker 1>all to the same level. They don't have any They

1859
01:37:46.520 --> 01:37:50.079
<v Speaker 1>call them Dutero canonical, but it's because the Deutero canon

1860
01:37:50.199 --> 01:37:53.800
<v Speaker 1>second in acceptance, not because they hold any kind of distinction.

1861
01:37:53.880 --> 01:37:57.800
<v Speaker 1>There a good question. Let's see what else is there?

1862
01:37:58.800 --> 01:38:02.079
<v Speaker 1>What rolls be Christians? No? Uh?

1863
01:38:04.079 --> 01:38:04.239
<v Speaker 2>Oh?

1864
01:38:04.319 --> 01:38:06.399
<v Speaker 1>Is that? The is that? The is that the stoning

1865
01:38:06.439 --> 01:38:10.399
<v Speaker 1>the monkey's hidith? Where there is like I saw a

1866
01:38:10.439 --> 01:38:13.640
<v Speaker 1>she monkey committing adultery, so I joined in and stoning

1867
01:38:15.079 --> 01:38:20.359
<v Speaker 1>stoning the she monkey. Yeah, that's funny. I sent that

1868
01:38:20.399 --> 01:38:24.920
<v Speaker 1>to a buddy of mine when he first became a Christian.

1869
01:38:25.760 --> 01:38:32.079
<v Speaker 1>Let's see any other any other ones that I could

1870
01:38:32.159 --> 01:38:37.079
<v Speaker 1>possibly answer? Probably not well, if you guys, I guess

1871
01:38:37.119 --> 01:38:38.920
<v Speaker 1>while we're waiting on Jada comeback, because the rest of

1872
01:38:38.960 --> 01:38:42.600
<v Speaker 1>these questions are for j specifically, If you guys want to, uh,

1873
01:38:43.920 --> 01:38:48.720
<v Speaker 1>please re ask my question when Jada's back. What's your oh?

1874
01:38:48.760 --> 01:39:00.520
<v Speaker 1>Because he left mid Yeah? Sure, no worries, dude, okay, welcome, welcome,

1875
01:39:01.319 --> 01:39:03.199
<v Speaker 1>all right. Uh do you want to do you want

1876
01:39:03.199 --> 01:39:05.279
<v Speaker 1>to do like two more questions and wrap up here?

1877
01:39:07.039 --> 01:39:09.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think we can do that. So big day tomorrow, guys.

1878
01:39:09.479 --> 01:39:13.479
<v Speaker 2>No pray for what'll be going on with Gerald from Crowder,

1879
01:39:13.760 --> 01:39:16.800
<v Speaker 2>So he's interested in orthodoxy. We'll be talking about all

1880
01:39:16.840 --> 01:39:20.159
<v Speaker 2>that tomorrow. So I'm just trying to get all that situated.

1881
01:39:21.000 --> 01:39:23.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that'll be cool man. Yeah we can. Well, if

1882
01:39:23.399 --> 01:39:24.920
<v Speaker 1>you want to just finish answering this one, we can

1883
01:39:24.920 --> 01:39:29.520
<v Speaker 1>wrap up after that, all right. He says this was

1884
01:39:29.560 --> 01:39:32.800
<v Speaker 1>the Saint Maximus two hundred chapters on theology. Doesn't understand

1885
01:39:32.800 --> 01:39:34.079
<v Speaker 1>the term gnosissism in.

1886
01:39:34.039 --> 01:39:39.880
<v Speaker 2>There, Well, yeah, I mean the a gnostic is just

1887
01:39:39.920 --> 01:39:42.640
<v Speaker 2>one who has knowledge, right, So he's not using it

1888
01:39:42.640 --> 01:39:44.800
<v Speaker 2>in the sense of the heresy of the early Church.

1889
01:39:45.159 --> 01:39:48.239
<v Speaker 2>He's just talking about the person who has true knowledge

1890
01:39:48.319 --> 01:39:49.680
<v Speaker 2>or the saint. That's all he means.

1891
01:39:51.319 --> 01:39:54.119
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely all right. Cool. Well, hey man, thank you so

1892
01:39:54.199 --> 01:39:56.560
<v Speaker 1>much for coming on the show. This has been awesome.

1893
01:39:56.720 --> 01:39:58.720
<v Speaker 1>You know, I'd love to do something again in the future.

1894
01:39:58.880 --> 01:40:01.840
<v Speaker 1>These are these are super helpful not only for me,

1895
01:40:01.920 --> 01:40:03.840
<v Speaker 1>but also for the inquirers that watch the stream and

1896
01:40:03.840 --> 01:40:06.840
<v Speaker 1>stuff like that is anything, Well, you just plugged the

1897
01:40:06.840 --> 01:40:08.279
<v Speaker 1>one thing coming up, but what else would you like

1898
01:40:08.319 --> 01:40:09.159
<v Speaker 1>to plug before we.

1899
01:40:09.319 --> 01:40:12.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so we're doing that tomorrow. I don't know when

1900
01:40:12.079 --> 01:40:13.920
<v Speaker 2>they're gonna air it. I don't know if it airs

1901
01:40:13.960 --> 01:40:16.000
<v Speaker 2>the same day it records or if they have a

1902
01:40:16.039 --> 01:40:20.079
<v Speaker 2>delay so that I don't know. But yeah, we'll have

1903
01:40:20.119 --> 01:40:23.039
<v Speaker 2>the conference as you guys know, November twenty twenty. First,

1904
01:40:23.720 --> 01:40:26.199
<v Speaker 2>you can find those links on my wall or my website.

1905
01:40:27.000 --> 01:40:29.279
<v Speaker 2>You can get my books in the shop at Jasonilsons

1906
01:40:29.279 --> 01:40:35.359
<v Speaker 2>dot com. We'll be having events in the future. I'm

1907
01:40:35.399 --> 01:40:37.600
<v Speaker 2>sure you'll be with us. So glad you're on board,

1908
01:40:37.640 --> 01:40:40.760
<v Speaker 2>and glad to look forward to meeting you in a

1909
01:40:40.800 --> 01:40:41.479
<v Speaker 2>few weeks. Man.

1910
01:40:42.079 --> 01:40:44.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that'll be awesome. Thanks so much for swinging by,

1911
01:40:44.399 --> 01:40:46.119
<v Speaker 1>and thank you all so much for watching. You'll have

1912
01:40:46.119 --> 01:40:47.479
<v Speaker 1>a good night, all right later