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Speaker 1: Hey, what's going on? Welcome to Cleave to Antiquity Today.

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I'm joined by the one, the only, Jayder what's going on? Brother?

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Speaker 2: Hey? Do what's up? Glad to be chatting again. We

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had a good zoom call well back, and I'm glad

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to reconnect. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, I've been excited for this one. I think this

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will be cool. So for those that are tuning in,

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kind of what I've been doing lately since I made

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the announcement I'm seeking an enter into the Orthodox Church

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is I've been inviting guests on to do a Q

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and A. So we'll be doing that this live stream.

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So the way this is going to work for y'all,

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if you want to ask a question, put a queue

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in front of your question in the chat. I will

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start it. I'll be pulling them up in the order

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that they're received. Jay. If there's one you don't want

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to mess with, let me know when I'll skip past

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that one. And then also if you want to skip

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the line, you can send in a super chat. I'll

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pull those up first just as a thank you for

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supporting the stream, but go ahead and start sending those in.

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Put a queue in front of your question. If you

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don't put a queue. I'm not going to see it.

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I'm not gonna be able to start, So I'll go

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ahead and I'll start diving into this first one. Super chat, Jay,

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unmute dude. All right, let's see here's a question that.

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Speaker 2: I could unmute myself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what does the church teach about regular Orthodox Christians

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having a having spiritual experiences with God like the monks?

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Is that just reserved for monks? No?

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Speaker 2: I think if you look at Saint Simmy and the

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New Theologian, the whole story of that is that he

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was combating what was called a form of massallionism, which

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is the idea that really only some tiny spiritual elite

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have access to the kind of grace that is offered

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in terms of seeing the divine light and so forth,

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and he was thrown out of his monastery. Has he

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had a really wild experience over all that, but he

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ended up being vindicated because all the grace is present

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in the sacraments are there for the potential for everybody

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having that experience.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. All right, let me see this next one here.

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Thanks for the superchat. Let's see, and thank you for

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the super chat. I appreciate it, all right, let's look

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at the inquirer questions here. Question inquirer, can you hold

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to annihilationism in Eachian orthodoxy? And what exactly is the

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doctrine of hell in Easian orthodoxy?

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Speaker 2: Annihilationism is not possible because we believe that Christ assumed

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universal human nature in a single divine hypostasis. So what

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that means is that the only basis for everybody being

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resurrected is the death or own resurrection of Christ. So

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all men are going to be resurrected universally, the same

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way that the scope of Adam's fall is universal. So

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first green Is fifteen makes the scope of both universal.

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But that is mean we're all saved, because our own

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individual existential experience of the esk will be contingent upon

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how we recapitulate it or fail to recapitulate the virtues.

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So the river of fire, that is the torment of

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the wicked, is the state that they put themselves in

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to be actually negatively experiencing or ever ill being. As

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sat Maximus says, the same divine energy is the same

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divine fire that purges and deifies the righteous. So the righteous,

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because of thiosis, experience ever well being, and the wicked

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because of their choice of vice experiences ever ill being.

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So there's no possibility in that scheme of annihilationism, because

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everybody has an eternal nature that's given to them through

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the work of Christ. So also I think that helps

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explain the difference between the Orthodox view and the Latin

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view or the typical Protestant view of the escaton.

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Speaker 1: Awesome templar five dollars shears. Guys, Hey, this is this

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was an Anglican gentleman that just decided to become Orthodox.

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So he's entering into his Uh, he just became a catechumen. Actually,

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so good to see you man. Hey, j great work

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you're doing. What do you think about the New American

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Orthodox film? It's available free for parishes to screen.

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Speaker 2: I don't know anything about it. Do you know about it?

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You can tell me about it. I have no idea.

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Speaker 1: If you want to. If you want to clarify, man,

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send a clarification question and or just some some additional contexts.

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Oh yeah, do you wanna Do you want to plug

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the conference that's coming up in November?

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Speaker 2: Sure? Yeah, it was a number twenty to twenty. First

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is our Orthodox conference in Home Coast. It's a two

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day conference with me, Father Vladimir, my priest Kadanov, father Diagan,

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doctor Narnias met Boalt and Jonah, doctor David Patrick Carey,

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a couple other friends of Father Vladimir's. I think we'll

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also have some smaller vignettes and things that they want

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to touch on. There's a book that's coming out by

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a priest that's a friend of Father Vladimir's that will

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be translated into English, so he'll have a little message there.

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And you can get the tickets at my website or

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on my profile or anybody else's profiles that are involved.

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Two days and yeah, it's gonna be a lot of fun.

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I know you're going to be there, and Christian Mario

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is going to be there, Luigi is going to be there.

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Basically all everybody but Bowser Yoshi, all of the Mario

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world will be there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: They were saying that in that picture that we took together.

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They were like, oh, you're Yoshi. Now, I don't want

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to be Yoshi.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say, you don't Bowser Yoshi Warrio,

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like I don't know who you want to you could do,

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like if you put a hat on you could kind

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of be a Warrio character there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well I think there is already like an

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Orthodox Warrio on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: Really, you're right, I forgot about that. You could be

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Princess Peach. It's over.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd rather I'd rather delete all of my social

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media than become Peach. All right, let's see here, all right? So, yeah,

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attend that attend that conference if y'all, If y'all are

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in the Florida in Florida, go and attend that conference.

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A lot of people are gonna be there, basically, all

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of all of Ortho Twitter. Basically, it will be the

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place to be, all right, Cookie Destroyer says, who's the

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next Protestant YouTuber to take the Orthop pill in cleeve?

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Have you taken down your non to non church on

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redeem Zoomer's Minecraft server and built an Orthodox one. I

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was never on that thing. I will say this, though

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I was on. I was on his discord server. I

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got banned twice for for debating. So but I like

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I like I like redem Zoomer. He's a he's a

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he's a nice guy.

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Speaker 2: Who's neck.

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Speaker 1: Would who would be your who would you be your

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bet for the next Protestant tuber.

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Speaker 2: I have no idea. Who's to even like open to

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other possibilities like that. There's probably quite a few Anglican

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you know, YouTubers or Lutheran YouTubers that are probably unhappy

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with Protestantism that I'm it's not even aware of. So

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I understand honestly have no idea because I don't I

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mean outside of you and maybe a couple of other people,

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Like I haven't really interacted with a whole lot of

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you know, Adamant Protestant YouTubers. I mean, it's you redeem

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Zoomer like that's it's about the only two that come

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to mind, like within the last year and a half.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, maybe I've got I've got some ideas, but

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I don't really want to say those live.

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Speaker 2: Okay, there might be somebody you would know about him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's that's that's about it. I mean, I

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I would say I'll say this, I think in the

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you know, I'm I'm still friends with a lot of

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the Protestant guys, you know, those that those that still

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speak to me after this. Some of some of them

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are like, oh, you're like a different You're you're basically like,

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you know, an alien now or something. Yeah, but uh,

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to the guys that I still I still speak to,

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I think my spending my time in that camp, you

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realize that the ground is a lot shakier and the

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people's confidence in their own positions are a lot shakier

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than they put on online. Which was kind of why

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I filled that space on YouTube, was because a lot

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of these guys won't won't do debates for that specific reason.

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They don't they're not confident enough in their own positions.

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They don't want to have their world view shaken like that.

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So the the guys that are mean.

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Speaker 2: Same in the room calt world too, man. I mean,

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I know several Roman Catholics who have kind of confided

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to me that what they're putting forward isn't the real position.

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Like I'm not saying that they don't believe Catholicism, but

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they're a lot less confident versus what they're kind of

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putting forward. But I'm not going to say who that is.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, right right, yeah, keep them keep them in

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prayer for sure, hij I'm having trouble with KESSI castidy prayer.

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My mind wanders constantly, any tips.

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Speaker 2: So this is something that you should just take up

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with your spiritual father, because that's I have the same difficulty,

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and I usually I think in the Orthodox world, we

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don't really try to get people to practice in that

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way until they're pretty advanced. So I wouldn't worry about

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that right now unless you're very advanced. And if you're

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very advanced, I'm not the person that you should ask about.

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So take that up with your spiritual father. But yeah,

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I think a lot of the things that kind of

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attend that kind of prayer are the things that people

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get all caught up on, right, like bodily posture or

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something like that, And none of that stuff is essential

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to Orthodox prayer, so I wouldn't get too caught up

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in that stuff. But somebody had an interesting point, which

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was that a lot of times people like in the

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middle of the liturgy, like I saw, have a tendency

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to close my eyes. And then I know, because that's

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kind of a Protestant thing when you're praying, like you

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close your eyes, and that's not always wrong, because you know,

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you have in the liturgy value your heads and so forth,

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but it sometimes helps to focus on the icons to

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actually not be distracted because if I close my eyes,

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I start my mind starts wondering. So if you get

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in the habit maybe of not closing your eyes, but

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I mean that's that's up to you and your spiritual father. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know what's interesting, my uh my daughter, she's nine,

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and she's always prayed with her eyes open. So we

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when we started going to the orthox Or, She's unlike,

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I'm like, hey, these people pray with their eyes open,

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just like you. She's like, whoa, this is like my church.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm still not even used to it, even

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after being orgone for a while, Like, I'm still like it.

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This is the Protestant mindset, I guess. So, I mean

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I was Roman Catholic, and I guess when I was Catholic,

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I would still you know, well, they have imaginative prayer,

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which when I'm Orthodox, I'm not doing imaginative prayer. But

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your mind does still have a tendency to wander. So

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I definitely feel that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's see here, what is the relationship of culture

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to Orthodoxy. How are cultural expressions and their incumbent industries sanctified, Oh, movies, music,

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et cetera.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it differs too much from the attitude

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that most serious Roman Catholics or Protestants have, except that

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I think Orthodoxy is done a better job of maintaining

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the distinction between the sacred and the secular. So, you know,

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like in the Protestant world, you have this idea of, oh,

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we got to come up with like Christian rock and roll.

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This sounds just like Coldplay or just like you two.

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I an Orthodox, you don't really have to do that.

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There's no necessity to water down and kind of push

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the theology into the secular sphere because really there's not

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a secular sphere. I mean, everything is kind of in

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the domain of the kingdom, the basilaeis or whatever. So

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maybe it's less challenging. But I think you know, the

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history of the Orthodox world overlaps with the Latin Church

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of verse thousand years, so you've got a lot of esthetics, artwork,

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et cetera that has to be made within the confines

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of virtue. I think in the Protestant world you have

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this attitude that everything has to be explicitly kind of

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like Jesus, Jesus, Jesus worship service, worship service, And it

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doesn't have to be that way because the virtues themselves

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are kind of necessarily connected to God. So if you

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have a film that's not explicitly Christian, but it's still

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promoting virtue, it's that's fine, that's good. You don't not

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everything has to be explicitly a worship service, because the

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liturgy is the worship service, So you don't have to

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constantly like make everything diluted, like I think it's sort

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of evangelical rock and roll. Does you know think about Dustievsky, right,

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he wrote philosophical, psychological novels that are breathe. They breathe

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the Orthodox wild view, but they're not all about Orthodoxy

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per se. You know, you have some characters or whatever,

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but you know, Crime and Punishment has redemption, it has virtue,

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but it's not it's not in your face necessarily.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean, honestly, that's part of my I

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guess conversion story was reading a brother's chromosome, you know,

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and seeing some of the themes there kind of woven there.

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Shortly after that I did read Crime and Punishment. I

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like the I actually like Crime and Punishment a lot better.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I like Crime Crime Pashment a lot. Yeah, it's

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really good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a it's a. It's a more fluid fluid read.

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I feel like I had to to try to pay

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attention more in Brother's Chromozol. Maybe that's just my brain.

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I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I read Crime and Punishment pretty quick, like I

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had a grad class on it, and I read it

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like within a few days. Yeah, but then I found

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and I'm still not finished Brother's kramatso because it's very

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difficult read. So yeah, I totally agree.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's take a look at this one

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inquirer questions can a male have a female patron saint? Also?

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Can you have more than one patron saint? Thanks God bless.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know that, but my first thought would

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be no, I've never even heard of anybody think about that.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't think it's an interesting question.

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Speaker 2: And more than one saint. I think in the Serbian

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tradition you have patron saints for families. Uh, but that

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might be unique to the Serbs. But that's the only

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case I've heard of having more than one patron saint. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Oh, and I was gonna say about that, like making

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the mew, you were talking about making the music kind

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of Jesus or whatever. Well, if I if I don't

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make my gospel rock band, how am I going to

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get the CIA dollars? Man?

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Speaker 2: How's it gonna happen? Yeah? Right? Well the other thing too,

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is I forget who said this. Somebody said this, maybe

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at a conference a few years ago. But it's like,

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if you think about it, the if you're in the

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Protestant world, the music, the worship is all Jesus, Jesus Jesus.

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If you're in the Charismatic world, it's holy Spirit, Holy Spirit,

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Holy Spirit. Right, But it's like, why why not just

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be trinitarian? Right? Like, and the Orthodox Liturgy is super

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super trinitarian. So I think those shortcomings kind of come

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through in those points.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, nobody says y'all got to do a tag team

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on Mormonism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm open to that. I didn't know. Have you

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spent a good bit of time interacting with the Mormons.

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Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't be the guy man. That might be

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more Jim Bob's specialty.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Jim Bob and I've done a few you know,

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Mormons dreams and whatnot. So, but yeah, anybody who wants to,

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we can do a tag team on Islam or Mormon

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or anything like that. I'm always down for that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Mormond.

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Speaker 2: It seems to be really popping off lately.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the Mormonism debates have been coming back into the

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It seems like apologetics takes a like a cycle. There's

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like a schedule of what gets popular. Every now and

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then Vatican two will pop up, or like it'll be uh,

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you know, oh, now it's papal supremacy. Now we're gonna

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talk about this, or oh we're gonna talk about you

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know whatever.

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Speaker 2: But even aside from the topics, it seems like the

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Mormons have done a big push, like in terms of

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like ads and propaganda in the last few years to

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kind of really make Mormonism this, you know, topic of discussion,

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I think on purpose.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I can see that. I've seen a lot

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of Again, all the ads always has like a hot chick.

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Speaker 2: On front exactly, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Become Mormon. You know, you're gonna get You're gonna get

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a girlfriend finally, you know.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean we had that recent pretty good in

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Hollywood movie with the Hugh Grant Heretic. Did you see Heretic? No?

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Speaker 1: I didn't.

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Speaker 2: You should watch It's pretty good movie, and that the

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two lead carearacters are you know, Mormon missionaries.

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Speaker 1: So that's pretty wild interesting. Yeah, that's weird. I'll have

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to check that out, all right, cap uh cab Bob

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the Great, Can you guys explain the origin of the

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doctrine of Mary's ever virginity and sinless life? Why isn't

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it present in Protestantism?

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Speaker 2: It was present in early luther and Calvin Uh, I mean,

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early Protestantism did have it. So I think the further

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you get away from you know, the Magisterial Reformation or

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the Classical Reformation, the more you get into radical Reformation,

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which seems like today's Protestant world and Evangelical world is

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pretty much Radical Reformation dominant, whether it's charismaticism or whether

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it's kind of these you know, anti state tendencies or

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anti Old Testament tendencies of the Campbell Lights.

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Speaker 1: Like.

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Speaker 2: It seems like Classical Reformation theology is pretty restricted to

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some Presbyterians and Lutherans here and there, and that's about it.

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So the origin of it, I think is more of

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a typological approach. If you read, for example, Ezekiel forty four,

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that temple, that mysterious temple that when I was a Protestant,

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I can never really forget what that's about. But in

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the Orthodox view, we think that's also a type not

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just of the church, but a merit. And so there's

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a specific text that says that the prince exits through

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a door and the door remains shut. It's never opened,

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it's always sealed. So that is the entrance of Messiah,

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the Prince of Daniel nine, into this world, and yet

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the door by which he came remains ever virgin. So

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that's one basis. But also I think being the New

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Eve all the typology of Psalm forty five. I have

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a whole video, by the way, Protestants are interested on

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where I go through all the biblical typology of Mary,

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and although it's not explicitly about of a virginity, I

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think the conclusion logically is that, well, she would have

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been also preserved to be the new Eve.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've done a video that's something along the lines

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of every Reformer held to the perpetual virginity. If you

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want to check that out. I go into detail on that.

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That was when I was a Protestant. People got mad

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at that they were saying. They were saying I was

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a Jesuit spy because I held the perpetual virginities.

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Speaker 2: We'll get used to it because you're it's only going

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to increase. Like I've been hearing that crazy stuff for

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a long time, so.

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Speaker 1: It's it's hilarious.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 1: I kind of I kind of like that. I don't know,

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I think that's funny.

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Speaker 2: Like you'll be Masade, you'll be KGB, you'll be a

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you'll be Jesuit. Like you're working for all of them.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, there you go all at once. Last, I'm

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a KGB sorcerer.

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Speaker 2: You got me?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there he goes KGB sorcerer. What's funny is the

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guy that said that he did a video after my

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like announcement video where he he took my thumbnail with

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like the big redhead and like stretched out my neck

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and put it on like a cassock. It's actually hilarious.

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I was like, Okay, that's actually pretty funny.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember, uh I did. I interviewed Dugan like

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ten years ago and it was just like an hour

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long podcast and I talked about a couple of his books.

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And then ever since then, like they've like all these people,

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a lot of Roman Catholics have insisted that I'm a

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KGB operative. It's still stupid because it's like, it doesn't

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matter how many times I explain that I disagree with

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Dugan's gnosticism. It's like, no, but you interviewed him. So

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the only way you could have interviewed him is if

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you're working with him. Like it's just kind of crazy,

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Like even if I say where I disagree, doesn't mean

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I'm working with him.

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Speaker 1: That was like guys were saying, how much did how

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much did.

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Speaker 2: Jay pay you to convert?

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Speaker 1: I said, I got paid in dugan coin.

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Speaker 2: You got you got one full dougan coin, which translations

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to the twenty five bitcoin, So there.

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Speaker 1: You go, very nice, all right. How should I speak

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to those who think it's a cult? I think they

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were talking about orthodoxy.

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Speaker 2: I mean, one thing I've learned about this kind of

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stuff is how you speak to the person depends upon

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that person. So you know, it really depends on who

398
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that person is in your life. If you're talking about

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your parents, don't approach them in the same way that

400
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you would your brother, or you know, your comrades at

401
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work or whatever. Because people that are your equals, you

402
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can speak to them in a more forthright, sardonic way.

403
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If it's your parents, be more respectful, don't debate with them,

404
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,480
let them see a change in your life. You will

405
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never convince your parents through argumentation. They're only going to

406
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be convinced when they see you, first of all, having

407
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like you know, a solid life, wife, kids, et cetera.

408
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Then they might listen to you. They're not going to

409
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listen to you when you're still living at home and

410
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you don't have a job and you're over here debating theology.

411
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I know because I did that. I made the mistake

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when I was young, so you know, I would say

413
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it could be you know, if it's if it's somebody

414
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who's your equal, you could kind of question them about, well,

415
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what do you think a cult is? Because if it's

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a broad definition, then any religion could be a cult.

417
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You could say the papacy's a cult if you have

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to follow the papacy, right, is that a cult? Is

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every religion a cult? Or is it specifically like you

420
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,720
only have to follow a single leader, which Orthodoxy is

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very decentralized, so it's kind of anti cult.

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Speaker 1: I would say, yeah, absolutely. And this is something that

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comes up quite a bit, like how do I ask

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my family, or how do I talk to my family

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or convince them of orthodox or my spouse. That sucks

426
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when that comes up, because I've gotten a lot of

427
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I've got a lot of emails, a lot of d

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ms and stuff from Protestants that are talking about, oh,

429
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I want to become Orthodox or you know, et cetera.

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I'm like, well, first off, you know, go ask a priest.

431
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I'm just a guy on the internet, or like, you know,

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ask somebody who has been in it for a while.

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But so the stuff that I get a lot will

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be something along the lines of I'm convinced my wife's

435
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not convinced, or I'm convinced my parents aren't convinced, or like,

436
00:21:50,839 --> 00:21:54,079
maybe my parents are going to disown me if I

437
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become Orthodox because they're like jimbab evangelical types. The answer

438
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,480
and I just posted a video with an author earlier

439
00:22:04,519 --> 00:22:07,599
today talking about this exact topic. So if you want

440
00:22:07,599 --> 00:22:10,200
to go look at that, it's kind of like some

441
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quick run through tips of what you can do if

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you're in any of those situations there, So that might

443
00:22:15,559 --> 00:22:20,960
be helpful. There, he says, do you hear Ibara telling

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me leaving? I guess Rome would be easy. No, I

445
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didn't see that.

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming that's what our means. No, Lura told you

447
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that leaving Rome would be easy. I don't know what

448
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that means, but I mean, it's not hard to leave Rome.

449
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I did it. Yeah, you just leave like you don't

450
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have to like send in a letter to the Pope

451
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and like you know, I want Leo Leo. You need

452
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to sign off on me like no longer being a

453
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member anymore. I'm not gonna tie like you just I

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don't care.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Plank some pieces is a recent convert to Orthodoxy.

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You posted a video about this little while ago. Could

457
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you give me some insight on the contra around depicting

458
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,000
the Father or ancient of days and what positions should

459
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,640
we hold on this? Have seen people argue both since

460
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,119
coming to Orthodoxy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's the best book on this is Volume two

462
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:17,440
of the Theology the icon by Loski and Alspensky, And

463
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there's about three chapters in the In the later part

464
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of that book, I mean, the first few chapter is

465
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really good about palam aus and icons and how you

466
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,920
really can't divorce the energy's doctrine from iconography. Uh, those

467
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,559
are really strong chapters and there there's actually quite a

468
00:23:32,599 --> 00:23:35,440
bit of probably apologetic meat that we could get from

469
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,519
that we haven't even really dived into yet. But after

470
00:23:38,599 --> 00:23:41,319
that comes several chapters talking about the God the Father issue.

471
00:23:41,759 --> 00:23:45,160
And although the Moscow icon synodes aren't dogmatic per se,

472
00:23:45,319 --> 00:23:47,039
they still have a lot of influence and they still

473
00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:49,480
have a lot of good points, and they do make

474
00:23:49,519 --> 00:23:53,000
the allowance for you know, the Ancient of Day's icon.

475
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,200
But even in the Ancient of Day's icon, really it's

476
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,359
Christ as the only image of God the Father. So

477
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,079
if you notice that image, Christ has kind of the

478
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,799
appearance of an older Christ, but that matches with what

479
00:24:06,839 --> 00:24:09,359
you read in Ezekiel and Revelation one and two, where

480
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,039
when He appears, he appears as a whiteheaded, you know,

481
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,200
kind of glistening, shining person. His appearances like you know,

482
00:24:16,279 --> 00:24:20,039
bronze and gold and all this, So that I think

483
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,759
is the only via the Moscow Icons in a sort

484
00:24:23,759 --> 00:24:27,519
of approved image. Now, people have not always followed this,

485
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,680
or they've not always necessarily even known this. So you

486
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,480
do have a lot of architects and artists who have

487
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,359
built churches and they kind of put you know, the

488
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,079
Roman Catholicish influenced God the Father up there in a

489
00:24:38,559 --> 00:24:41,480
triangle or something like that. So even though it's technically

490
00:24:41,559 --> 00:24:44,160
not canonical, I don't think it's the end of the world.

491
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,920
We don't have to be spergs about it. But ultimately

492
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,920
it's not really canonical, and ultimately it should probably just

493
00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:55,039
be the allowance for the ancient of day is maybe

494
00:24:55,079 --> 00:24:57,319
a couple other examples. And the other reason for this

495
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,960
is not just to be persnickety and annoying about it.

496
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,880
It's because if you read that Lawsky Ospenskey book, they

497
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:10,400
talk about how the Jesuits it actually designed certain icons

498
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,480
to use philly oquay, and so they would push those

499
00:25:14,839 --> 00:25:18,240
icons in Russian areas, especially in places like Kiev, and

500
00:25:18,319 --> 00:25:20,519
it was actually duping a lot of the peasants to

501
00:25:20,759 --> 00:25:25,359
adopt not even philly okuad but like really weird theology, right,

502
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,920
because sometimes it's almost like you have God the Father

503
00:25:29,079 --> 00:25:33,359
as an old man sitting next to Jesus and then

504
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,799
they're sending the Holy Spirit. So some of these heterdox

505
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,039
icons have names, like it was one called the New

506
00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:41,079
Testament icon or something like that, but they're known sort

507
00:25:41,079 --> 00:25:44,799
of Jesuit syops that I mean, I'm being serious. If

508
00:25:44,839 --> 00:25:47,160
you read the book I talk about it to really

509
00:25:47,279 --> 00:25:51,400
kind of sway them towards Romanism. And Rome never really

510
00:25:51,519 --> 00:25:56,480
adopted the theology of the Seventh Council. They they believe

511
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,519
it in name, but all the theology behind it, the

512
00:25:59,559 --> 00:26:02,720
canon and then the eight forty three triumph of Orthodoxy.

513
00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:05,960
They don't care anything about that unless they're uniate. But

514
00:26:06,039 --> 00:26:07,079
who cares what units it?

515
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: Right?

516
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 2: So Rome doesn't see icons as bound up with the theology,

517
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,240
because if they did, they would believe in the energies,

518
00:26:15,319 --> 00:26:19,440
because the energies are really essential to iconography. But uh, yeah,

519
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,799
so that's that's uh. I think that because I struggle

520
00:26:22,799 --> 00:26:25,440
with that issue at one point too, because there are

521
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,319
some places where you can have, for example, this it's

522
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,799
the same principle with the Holy Spirit. You can't portray

523
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,759
the hypostasis of the Holy Spirit because he's never incarnate,

524
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,400
and we only portray really what's incarnate in the sense

525
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,720
of the Son. But there are a few instances where

526
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,160
you have what's called energetic manifestations of the Spirit, and

527
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:50,960
that's dove and tongues of fire. Right, that's it. You

528
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,640
could say there's an ergect manifestation perhaps of the voice

529
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,240
of the Father, so it's like, you know, this my

530
00:26:55,279 --> 00:26:58,920
beloved son. So that's obviously an inerject manifestation proper to

531
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,599
the Father. Even though every action is triadics, still there

532
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,240
are unique roles in that way. So I think that's

533
00:27:06,279 --> 00:27:07,000
the solution to that.

534
00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you see you're talking about the Roman Catholics

535
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,759
not really holding to Nicia too. Yeah, I've noticed that

536
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,400
quite a bit. I mean, if you were to look

537
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,720
at there's a guy out there, Kevin since thirty three AD.

538
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,720
He posted on x not that long ago saying that

539
00:27:23,599 --> 00:27:26,880
icon veneration was not Apostolic, it was like an innovation

540
00:27:27,039 --> 00:27:27,480
later on.

541
00:27:27,759 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't believe they concede this to Protestants because

542
00:27:30,759 --> 00:27:32,839
you know, this is what Ibarro has been arguing for years.

543
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,359
He would say, my argument against Orthodoxy is that the

544
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,079
Seventh Council is a development. But apparently Eric didn't read

545
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,160
the actual Council because it says this is not a development.

546
00:27:43,559 --> 00:27:46,400
This goes back to the Apostolic period again, sort of

547
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,079
based on the principle of the notion that matter can

548
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,480
be you know, sanctified relics or there you've got real presence.

549
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,039
So that kind of necessarily leads to the iconography that

550
00:27:57,079 --> 00:28:00,359
comes out of the temple iconography.

551
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,839
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, absolutely, I think I think it's a silly

552
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,200
it's a silly argument. But you said this in one

553
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,640
of your previous streams. It is kind of like a

554
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,240
coal to the magisterium, right, like sacrifice the other doctrines

555
00:28:12,279 --> 00:28:14,359
just to prop up the one. And in this case

556
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,880
it would be uh doctrinal development, which is a big

557
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,400
deal for them now, especially since Newman's a doctor now.

558
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,599
Speaker 2: So exactly, and that's exactly what Ruslan and Michael Knowles

559
00:28:23,599 --> 00:28:25,720
were just chatting about. Right, So this tubby came up

560
00:28:25,759 --> 00:28:27,799
and Rouselan said, I figured how you phrased it with

561
00:28:27,799 --> 00:28:30,960
something like I appreciate the romancalolic doctrinal development. I'm like,

562
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,079
but what's what's to appreciate it? But that's a double

563
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:35,839
edged sword. And I can say this as a who

564
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,559
was a former trad because a lot of the trads

565
00:28:39,599 --> 00:28:41,839
think and I thought this at one time too, It's like, well,

566
00:28:42,039 --> 00:28:46,039
the papacy will protect us from the developments because you

567
00:28:46,079 --> 00:28:51,160
can have this nailed down, solidified statement that's unchanging. Right.

568
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,799
Doesn't that seem like it would solve a lot of

569
00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:55,960
these problems of when a new issue arises. But the

570
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,599
problem is that if the papacy is not true, then

571
00:28:58,599 --> 00:29:01,240
what happens is you've got this Saint Justin Papovitch said

572
00:29:01,279 --> 00:29:05,079
a kind of a European humanist institution of man in

573
00:29:05,119 --> 00:29:09,680
his primary position. And then if the papers he can evolve.

574
00:29:10,279 --> 00:29:14,599
There's no necessity to it evolving in a traditional way.

575
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,079
It can evolve in a progressive liberal way.

576
00:29:18,759 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we see that today exactly. All right, what

577
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,480
are your guys, This is a weird question. What do

578
00:29:24,519 --> 00:29:27,960
you guys favorite fragrance? Fragrances? So what's your what's your

579
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,200
cologne choice? They want to they want to cocken nineties.

580
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: I used to love coloonna I wore Ralph Lauren, Polo

581
00:29:34,279 --> 00:29:36,920
Sport I wore. I remember one time when I was

582
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,400
like in eighth grade, I went to about my first

583
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,359
bottle of cologne. It was Dr card Noir, and I

584
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:43,920
was at a football game and I was about to

585
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,119
mac on these chicks and I spilled the whole bottle

586
00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:48,920
on my pants. So I like the whole stadium like

587
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,200
cleared out because it was all was it?

588
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:52,599
Speaker 1: Is it like musky? That?

589
00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: Oh, it's like the most musky? Yeah, Card Noir I

590
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,440
was like the classic like eighties and nineties, like I

591
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,799
don't know, like like a like a swarthy European pimp

592
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:08,799
would wear anyway. But I liked raf Lauren Polo sport

593
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,079
back in the day. I like the cool water back

594
00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:13,359
in the nineties. Those are those are popular, but a

595
00:30:13,359 --> 00:30:15,680
lot of those are toxic. Yeah, I don't really I

596
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,559
don't really wear those anymore, and I have allergies. So

597
00:30:19,079 --> 00:30:20,160
I just smell like a dude.

598
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: I use I use a Calvin Klein Shock. That's my

599
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,839
that's my go to cologne right there, or guess blue

600
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,079
whatever my wife buys me. That's all. Yeah, I just say,

601
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,799
look for cologne that's blue. It all just about smells

602
00:30:35,839 --> 00:30:39,319
the same. It seems like, Yeah, I like the blue smell. Yeah, exactly,

603
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:46,000
very the blue flavored colone. How does uh, how does

604
00:30:46,039 --> 00:30:48,960
Eastern Orthodox view the all I don't even know what

605
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,119
this is? All of it discourse.

606
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,799
Speaker 2: Oh that's Matthew twenty four and Luke twenty one. Right,

607
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,160
So I'm glad. You'm glad you asked that because I

608
00:30:56,279 --> 00:30:59,519
just posted on Twitter one of my old talks about uh,

609
00:30:59,599 --> 00:31:04,720
pred ad the beasts and all that. So, yeah, most

610
00:31:04,759 --> 00:31:10,759
of the Eastern Church fathers, whether it's Saint Cyril, Halthanasius,

611
00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:13,839
Saint John Christism in his commentary on Matthew twenty four.

612
00:31:14,079 --> 00:31:16,400
We believe in a partial preadorist view is very important

613
00:31:16,599 --> 00:31:18,880
to making sense of the New Testament, that there was

614
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,960
a coming in judgment in seventy eight D. That particularly

615
00:31:24,319 --> 00:31:27,000
Luke twenty one is really clear about this, and it's

616
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,359
written for a gentle audience, so you can kind of

617
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,440
see clearly that it's talking about a first century judgment

618
00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:39,519
upon Israel. And although we don't have like an official

619
00:31:39,559 --> 00:31:44,400
patristic you know, dogmatic statement on like what the Book

620
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,640
of Revelation is about, I've never I've never not been

621
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:55,079
convinced still of the gentry bonds and you know David

622
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,039
Chilton Days of Vengeance position that the Book of Revelation

623
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,839
is in its historical context about seventy Nero is the Beast,

624
00:32:03,279 --> 00:32:05,720
but there is a future fulfillment that kind of mirrors

625
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,400
those things too. So you can find a lot of

626
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,240
those videos on my channel. I don't want to ramble

627
00:32:09,279 --> 00:32:12,799
too much about into the world, but just well, probably

628
00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:15,440
the most clear references that in Luke twenty one, Jesus

629
00:32:15,519 --> 00:32:17,720
says there are some of you standing here who will

630
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,079
not die. You will see Jerusalem surrounded by enemies. You

631
00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:25,680
will see it raised to the ground. And he says,

632
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,480
don't try to flee on the sabbath, or pray that

633
00:32:28,519 --> 00:32:31,000
it's you don't have to flee on the Sabbath. Well,

634
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,319
that's not relevant to us post seventy eight D or

635
00:32:34,359 --> 00:32:37,480
after the Book of Hebrews is written. We're not sitting

636
00:32:37,519 --> 00:32:40,079
around worrying about traveling on the Sabbath. So it has

637
00:32:40,119 --> 00:32:43,519
to be relevant to the immediate hearers of Jesus' message.

638
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,640
And I have a I wrote a grad paper on

639
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,319
this about seventy a d. And Josephus's eyewitness account of

640
00:32:51,359 --> 00:32:54,920
the destruction of Jerusalem. So I think that partial preadterism

641
00:32:55,039 --> 00:32:57,720
is one of percent true men. Most of the Eastern

642
00:32:57,759 --> 00:32:58,400
fathers agree.

643
00:33:00,279 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: There was a who's that Protestant guy? The conservative he've

644
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,279
retweeted your your posts on that.

645
00:33:08,319 --> 00:33:11,839
Speaker 2: I have to Oh, yeah, I'm not super super familiar

646
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,240
with this guy. Nope. Father Moses kind of asked him,

647
00:33:14,519 --> 00:33:15,640
challenged him on some things.

648
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: But Joel or whatever, Oh yeah, Joel web that might

649
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,160
be interesting to have a chat with with him. He's

650
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,160
kind of like popping off right now.

651
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,279
Speaker 2: I think he did reply a while back somebody said,

652
00:33:27,279 --> 00:33:28,839
do you want to have a debate or discussion, because

653
00:33:28,839 --> 00:33:32,960
remember they did that podcast about orthodoxy maybe six months ago,

654
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,720
and I think somebody asked him and he was like,

655
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,759
I'm not really confident to debate or he said something

656
00:33:37,799 --> 00:33:39,920
like that, but yeah, I'm always open. I'm always open

657
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:40,400
to chatting.

658
00:33:41,119 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean you guys both agree

659
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,640
on that, so that might be a good Uh. I

660
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,240
don't know something interesting. Uh film Lincoln trailer is American

661
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,200
orthodox film dot com. Okay, cool, thanks for thanks for

662
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:53,799
letting me know. Man, I'll have to check that out later.

663
00:33:53,799 --> 00:33:55,279
I haven't I haven't seen anything about it.

664
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: Uh.

665
00:33:57,799 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: Lots of people are talking about the Folks publication book

666
00:34:01,279 --> 00:34:04,119
that spends a long time discussing your article about analogy.

667
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,319
Any plan on doing a response?

668
00:34:06,759 --> 00:34:10,039
Speaker 2: Lots of people? Yeah, I mean that following. That's a

669
00:34:10,079 --> 00:34:12,559
guy who started his own publishing out of his own basement,

670
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:14,880
and I think he has like a handful of followers.

671
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,199
So I don't think there's a lot of people, I

672
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,679
mean can simply address the issues themselves. That Romanites is

673
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,239
a open nominalist. It's really not possible to have a

674
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:32,440
Christological approach where Christ assumes universal human nature. If you're

675
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,599
a nominalist, how could you believe in universe human nature

676
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:40,320
being assumed if you're a radical nominalist. I mean there's

677
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,840
many other mistakes as well. I think Romanites is a

678
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,239
he's a controversial, conflicted figure, but I mean that's one

679
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,480
of the biggest problems. I mean, the Cappadocians use analogia

680
00:34:50,519 --> 00:34:53,039
all the time, so it would be fundamentally opposed to

681
00:34:53,079 --> 00:34:57,199
Capitocian theology to say that there is no analogia, and that,

682
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,599
as Rumani says, all he says, all the sickness of

683
00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:05,119
religion is based on analogy or analogia. I just think

684
00:35:05,119 --> 00:35:06,360
that's preposterous.

685
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,519
Speaker 1: All right, let's take a look at this one. A

686
00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:16,599
lot of Protestants like Gavin Ortland are really leveraging ecclesiological anxiety.

687
00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:20,199
I guess he calls he calls it acclesial anxiety against inquirers.

688
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,960
Feels like emotional blackmail. I mean I can kind of

689
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,159
speak to that, if that's all right.

690
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 2: Go ahead. I don't know what that means.

691
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, Gavin, Gavin's a friend of mine.

692
00:35:28,639 --> 00:35:30,320
He was actually one of the He was actually one

693
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,000
of the only Protestants that were kind of cool after I, uh,

694
00:35:33,559 --> 00:35:35,199
after I made the announcement. So I don't want to

695
00:35:35,199 --> 00:35:37,400
be rude to him or anything, but to be fair

696
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:42,239
to his brand, his brand is very You have these claims,

697
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,519
these exclusivity claims are Roman Catholics and Eastian orthodox make right.

698
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,360
So that causes people anxiety. His brand serves to ease

699
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,519
that anxiety. They call that ecclesial anxiety. Oh yeah, I

700
00:35:53,559 --> 00:35:55,280
mean I would I would agree a lot of the

701
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,360
Protestants do have this anxiety. I was never really one

702
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,960
of them. The exclusivity claims it was either true or

703
00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:05,760
it wasn't. You know what I mean, The Orthodoxy was

704
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,960
ever either true or it wasn't. So it really had

705
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,280
nothing for me to do with anxiety. But I will

706
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,000
say one of the ways that I had gotten kind

707
00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:16,920
of in contact with him for networking was I used

708
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,079
to run a discord server back in the day called

709
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,039
the Scripture Alone Discord. It was the largest Protestant discord

710
00:36:23,079 --> 00:36:26,079
back then. It's probably not anymore, but back then when

711
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,400
I helped run it, I had reached out to Gavin.

712
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,679
He had done some events with me, I joined his server,

713
00:36:32,159 --> 00:36:36,760
and his server was for people with ecclesial anxiety. So

714
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,199
it was like the whole brand is to kind of

715
00:36:39,639 --> 00:36:42,000
we're going to present arguments that you can kind of,

716
00:36:42,199 --> 00:36:45,800
in my opinion looking back at it now, is more like,

717
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,880
so you can compartmentalize this information because we're gonna cast

718
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,320
just a little bit of doubt on this particular claim,

719
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,840
this particular claim just enough to kind of stall your

720
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,360
decision into moving into one of these traditions, whether it's

721
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,079
Roman hoolicism or orthox, which is why you'll see in

722
00:37:03,159 --> 00:37:07,760
the videos. In my opinion, it's always like very minor objections.

723
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,039
It's like, okay, well here's a very specific, nuanced claim

724
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,280
about icon veneration. I'm going to attack this very specific argument.

725
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,159
So that way, if you know objections are brought from

726
00:37:20,199 --> 00:37:22,639
maybe an earlier date or another icon or whatever, I

727
00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:24,119
can say, well, that wasn't what I was addressing in

728
00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:27,159
the video. I'm just addressing this thing to debunk this

729
00:37:27,199 --> 00:37:29,519
one argument that's causing people anxiety. So that's kind of

730
00:37:29,559 --> 00:37:33,960
the brand there. But I mean a lot of people

731
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,519
that's true. That is kind of the motivation for why

732
00:37:36,519 --> 00:37:39,920
he does what he does, and feels like emotional blackmail.

733
00:37:41,559 --> 00:37:44,400
I mean, I don't want to speak to intentions. I

734
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,800
don't think that is his intention. I think he sees

735
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,960
a lot of people with this anxiety, and from his perspective,

736
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,800
he's trying to ease it. Whether or not that's you know,

737
00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:54,760
it is what it is.

738
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, only thing I'll say to that is that one

739
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,320
thing we do plan to do is to kind of

740
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,760
resurrect discord. So I kind of handed that off about

741
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,280
three years ago just because I was too busy. I've

742
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,119
seen now that there is a kind of a need

743
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,559
for maybe weekly Q and A because so many people

744
00:38:10,599 --> 00:38:13,360
are interested in Orthodoxy and a lot of people don't

745
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,920
have due to their location necessarily like an immediate parish.

746
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,039
So I think we do need to step up and

747
00:38:20,079 --> 00:38:23,079
try to offer you know, maybe not full on katechisis

748
00:38:23,079 --> 00:38:25,480
per se, but like at least answering a lot of

749
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,239
those kind of basic questions that a lot of people

750
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,480
are having. So we will be reviving my discord in

751
00:38:30,559 --> 00:38:32,800
the next week or two. We're going to start doing

752
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:33,760
the weekly Q and A.

753
00:38:34,039 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: So right on I might need to make a discord

754
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,239
account again. I haven't been on that thing in years.

755
00:38:40,159 --> 00:38:40,599
Let's see.

756
00:38:41,159 --> 00:38:42,679
Speaker 2: I mean it can be a lot of work, Like

757
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,280
I mean, you as you know, right, Like yeah, I

758
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,280
would say from like twenty eighteen to twenty twenty two,

759
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,960
like I was in discord a lot, right, it got

760
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,880
to be almost too much.

761
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that was probably about

762
00:38:57,079 --> 00:39:00,199
the same same time period, you know that I I

763
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,360
was active there. You know, I did the I did

764
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,639
the one. I did a lot of debates on there

765
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,960
back in the day. That's kind of where I started off.

766
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,320
And then Redeem Zuomer was like, hey, you need to

767
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,360
make in a well I guess maybe I haven't been

768
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,239
on it in like over a year then justly probably

769
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,119
just about a year, because why I started my YouTube

770
00:39:18,159 --> 00:39:20,360
was Redeem Zoomer was like, hey, nobody's doing the Protestant

771
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,280
apologetic stuff. Why don't you go make a YouTube and

772
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,960
hop in these debates. So I did it maybe six

773
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,480
months after he told me that, But uh, you know

774
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,199
that was eventual. That was originally where that was, And

775
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,360
I told you in a in a conversation we had

776
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,000
before that. Uh, that Cannon's argument that I gave I

777
00:39:36,039 --> 00:39:40,079
gave him he used in the debate with Luigi. That

778
00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:44,039
was where he got that Trullo PiZZ because he was like,

779
00:39:44,079 --> 00:39:45,440
how do I you know, what do I do here?

780
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,800
I'm like, all right, try this one out. I'll give you.

781
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,599
I'll give you a couple a couple of tools. Yeah,

782
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:55,119
kind of interesting. All right, let's see, Uh, Jay, Jay,

783
00:39:55,119 --> 00:39:57,840
how does it feel that you're conversing side by side

784
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:03,119
with someone, okay who not even six six months ago

785
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,559
called you into debate orthodoxy? Do you see fast conversions

786
00:40:06,559 --> 00:40:07,320
on the horizon?

787
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,159
Speaker 2: I mean it feels great. I'm really happy for Cleve.

788
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,480
I think I want him to know, as everybody else,

789
00:40:12,559 --> 00:40:15,559
that is not about winning the debate. I know people

790
00:40:15,639 --> 00:40:18,280
might think that how could die or say that that's

791
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,000
so disingen. No, it really isn't about winning some debate

792
00:40:21,039 --> 00:40:23,679
or winning some arguments. Really, all that matters is was

793
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,559
true and everybody, at the end of the day is

794
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,480
bound by what's true. And most of the people, I

795
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,119
think in our space, people who are out there vocally talking,

796
00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:37,440
I want to hope that they have the right motives.

797
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,280
And so I think it's an amazing testament to you know,

798
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,519
his search for truth and his putting truth first over

799
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,360
what he wants to be true or what I want

800
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,639
to be true anybody, and that's that's just how we

801
00:40:48,679 --> 00:40:51,159
ought to be. So that's great, thank God for that.

802
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:59,360
I don't know about how fast, but I mean, I

803
00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:02,960
don't even I can't even believe, Like from what's happened

804
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,599
from twenty seventeen till now, this kind of blows me away,

805
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,519
Like so many churches are tripled in size, they have

806
00:41:09,559 --> 00:41:12,599
one hundred two hundred CD of humans, and I keep

807
00:41:12,599 --> 00:41:14,519
hearing that, like they don't even have enough priests to

808
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,239
deal with people wanting to inquire and be kind of humans.

809
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,920
So that's why I'm saying, like another reason to kind

810
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,400
of get the discord going again. But I would guess probably,

811
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,599
and I will say this, it seems like back in

812
00:41:29,679 --> 00:41:34,280
twenty seventeen to twenty twenty, the ripe ground for conversion

813
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,519
was Catholic because I was dealing with a lot of

814
00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:39,760
Catholics and a lot of trad Cats that were converting.

815
00:41:40,199 --> 00:41:42,880
But from twenty twenty till now, it seems like it's

816
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,280
dominated by Protestants converting. So I think we kind of

817
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,519
got most of the Roman Catholic which is not to

818
00:41:48,559 --> 00:41:50,280
say that in the next several years there won't be

819
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,800
more Roman Catholics. It's just that a lot of them

820
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,599
are so dug in, they're so like just like there's

821
00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:59,880
there's some hole that you know, the papers he has

822
00:42:00,039 --> 00:42:03,119
as kind of you know, unique. I guess you could

823
00:42:03,119 --> 00:42:07,440
say I think the fertile ground now is Protestant in

824
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,559
my view. But I mean again, I think God's grace

825
00:42:09,639 --> 00:42:12,400
is going to work with a lot of people. I mean,

826
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,360
hopefully Tim Gordon will come around one day. I've been

827
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:16,239
working on Tim for.

828
00:42:16,159 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: So long, but it'd be awesome.

829
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think, uh, yeah, I don't know what

830
00:42:20,559 --> 00:42:23,039
your experience is or what you've noticed, but it seems

831
00:42:23,079 --> 00:42:26,480
to me that just the last few years there's a

832
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,519
lot more Protestants are open than Romancolics are. Yeah.

833
00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:32,119
Speaker 1: I mean, I just if I were to go off,

834
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,159
I mean, obviously my audience was mostly Protestant, but you know,

835
00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:37,440
all the emails like I've gotten from people who were

836
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,480
Protestant watching my staff that are now saying, well, you know,

837
00:42:40,519 --> 00:42:42,480
I'm going to try to become a catechumen, or I've

838
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,679
started attending Divine Liturgy. They've all been Protestants, And I

839
00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:47,840
thought I thought those emails would slow down. They have

840
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,000
it Like I'm still getting them almost every day, so

841
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,119
people are it's ripe that there's a lot of people

842
00:42:54,159 --> 00:42:55,559
that are that are interested right now.

843
00:42:55,679 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 2: So and Roman Caolic churches are really helping us by

844
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,760
pushing all the woke shit, you know what I mean.

845
00:43:03,159 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I just got a message today from a

846
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,519
Roman Catholic said he was becoming Orthodox. So you know,

847
00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:10,960
I think I think it's both. I think you're right though.

848
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,840
The Protestant camp right now is experienced a lot, like

849
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,559
a lot of a lot of various losses recently, and

850
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,960
people are expecting, I mean, really the only viable options

851
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,599
for people if they want it to be anything other

852
00:43:24,639 --> 00:43:27,320
than maybe like a non denominational evangelical kind of like

853
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,280
low church. Guy, what are your options? You look at

854
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,199
the lcms, you look at Anglicanism, or people really going

855
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,760
to go the Anglicanism route now after all the stuff

856
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,079
that's happened in the media. I mean, I don't know.

857
00:43:38,199 --> 00:43:41,079
To me, it doesn't seem like a very easy decision

858
00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:44,840
to make when part of you joining that denomination is

859
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,119
you having to preface no, we're actually not the gay ones.

860
00:43:47,159 --> 00:43:49,559
We're not those you know. I mean, you have the

861
00:43:49,559 --> 00:43:51,599
same problem in Lutheranism. But I mean, look at what

862
00:43:51,679 --> 00:43:54,719
was just what people were talking about very recently. If

863
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,119
you're if you're any kind of like I mean, I

864
00:43:57,119 --> 00:43:59,199
know people don't like the title, but if you're interested

865
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,599
in like Christian now rationalism or anything like that, they

866
00:44:01,639 --> 00:44:05,480
posted a whole uh this has been kind of resurrected.

867
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:10,360
There's a whole uh confession about their doctrinal values and

868
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,159
basically it says you can't be a Christian nationalist. It's

869
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:13,920
it's condemned.

870
00:44:14,159 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 2: So a thing that like James White and people to

871
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:17,400
sign on too.

872
00:44:18,519 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: No, this was this is an older document that's kind

873
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,519
of resurfaced, but it was one of the foundational documents

874
00:44:23,559 --> 00:44:27,159
in the l CMS. So like guys like, I mean,

875
00:44:27,599 --> 00:44:29,760
I don't I don't take this guy seriously. But guys

876
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,840
like Corey Maler or whatever, they're like, oh, you need

877
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,239
to be l CMS because we're based you know. It's

878
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:35,599
like okay, well.

879
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 2: But there the their synod is saying you can't be

880
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:39,800
a Christian nationalist.

881
00:44:40,119 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, gotcha? All right? Uh do you still listen

882
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,840
to any Protestant warship? No?

883
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,039
Speaker 2: I mean I might maybe around Christmas time we hear

884
00:44:51,199 --> 00:44:56,639
like Handell's Messiah and it doesn't bother me, but really

885
00:44:56,639 --> 00:44:59,519
most of the Protestant stuff ever since. I mean, I

886
00:44:59,519 --> 00:45:03,760
haven't been Protestant since two thousand and three, so I

887
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,000
think I've only stepped foot into Protestant church a couple

888
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,800
of times since two thousand and three. So you got

889
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,000
to you gotta understand, that's like a world that's like

890
00:45:11,039 --> 00:45:14,639
twenty two years removed from my life. So now I

891
00:45:14,639 --> 00:45:16,679
don't I don't recall. I mean maybe every now and

892
00:45:16,679 --> 00:45:19,960
then I hear like an evangelical like Toby Mack or

893
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:21,639
something that you know what I mean, Like when I

894
00:45:21,679 --> 00:45:23,440
was in the a kid in the nineties, I've listened

895
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,880
to DC Talk or something like. I think it's funny.

896
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:27,880
But no, I don't. I don't listen to any Protestant work.

897
00:45:28,599 --> 00:45:30,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't know.

898
00:45:30,599 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: I don't think it's a big deal. Like I'm not

899
00:45:32,599 --> 00:45:35,320
knocking you if you do. I just it's just so

900
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,760
far removed from like, you know, I think the last

901
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,000
time I was in a Protestant church other than I

902
00:45:42,039 --> 00:45:44,480
think one went to somebody's wedding back in the two thousands,

903
00:45:45,039 --> 00:45:46,920
was probably two thousand and three, and I was at

904
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,519
like a Doug Wilson Herry c Church. So it's been

905
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:51,719
since two thousand and three.

906
00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:57,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never really been a huge fan of evangelical

907
00:45:57,039 --> 00:46:00,639
worship music to begin with. Now there's like, I mean

908
00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:03,360
we're kind of joking about the like Christian rock bands

909
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,159
or whatever, but there is one I actually do like.

910
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,840
It's called Dogwood. They're actually pretty good. They're like a

911
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:08,360
punk war.

912
00:46:08,559 --> 00:46:10,199
Speaker 2: There are a couple of Christian rock bands that I

913
00:46:10,199 --> 00:46:12,039
could probably still listen to, like I would, I like,

914
00:46:13,159 --> 00:46:15,559
let me turn this line back on here. Yeah, I

915
00:46:15,559 --> 00:46:17,800
mean I always like Skillett. I saw Skullet back in

916
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:18,079
the day.

917
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I saw them live.

918
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, I've seen them live I think twice.

919
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:28,079
Speaker 1: But yeah, how does Eastern Orthodox approach global missions?

920
00:46:30,039 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 2: I mean missions are always handled by the bishops sending

921
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,920
out missionaries. So you know when you we have a

922
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,559
friend that just went to a church in Korea and

923
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,320
even I didn't know there was a Korean Orthodox bishop,

924
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,920
So I mean usually, you know, prior to the modern era,

925
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,960
it would be also in Tannem with the state, right,

926
00:46:50,039 --> 00:46:53,480
so like Zar Nicholas would send you know, missionaries out

927
00:46:53,559 --> 00:46:56,880
to Alaska or whatever. So if you want more of

928
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,360
a detailed history of that. Ubi Petris actually made I

929
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,639
think a three part documentary on the history of Orthodox missions.

930
00:47:03,199 --> 00:47:06,119
So I highly recommend his three part series. It's really good,

931
00:47:06,119 --> 00:47:09,199
but it's usually handled like at the bishopric level. I mean,

932
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,119
America is kind of unique because we're going to have

933
00:47:11,119 --> 00:47:16,280
this organic and actually genuinely organic kind of interest in

934
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,800
Orthodoxy in the last few decades. It's really kind of

935
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,280
kind of coming to a head and kind of exploding

936
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,880
in the last five years. Yeah, but I would say

937
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,360
that's outside the norm of history.

938
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,559
Speaker 1: Quick question for Jay can inquire to the Orthodox faith

939
00:47:34,599 --> 00:47:36,639
prayer that Jesus prayer before they're a catechumen.

940
00:47:37,199 --> 00:47:39,639
Speaker 2: Sure, I mean everything I've ever heard would say absolutely,

941
00:47:39,679 --> 00:47:40,280
anybody can.

942
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: Can you explain why absolute divine simplicity does not allow

943
00:47:46,039 --> 00:47:46,920
for Theophanes?

944
00:47:48,159 --> 00:47:51,199
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think the way that the Roman Catholics themselves

945
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:55,519
define it. They themselves say that the Theophanes have to

946
00:47:55,519 --> 00:48:02,159
be created in stantiations, iterationss angels. However you want to

947
00:48:02,199 --> 00:48:04,840
frame it or they want to frame it. And it

948
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,119
is true that some Roman Catholics want to say, no,

949
00:48:08,199 --> 00:48:11,719
it's really Christ, it's really Christ, right, but I think

950
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,239
they're not really on board with the trek that their

951
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,480
church went down, because the actual theology doesn't say that,

952
00:48:18,599 --> 00:48:21,880
particularly if you read doctor Bradshaw's article on essence synergy,

953
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,920
what kind of distinction? The longer version he gets into

954
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,199
the fourth ladder in Council, which has a definition of

955
00:48:28,199 --> 00:48:31,679
divine simplicity that you could call in the literature, it's

956
00:48:31,679 --> 00:48:35,360
called identity thesis. So basically, any predicate of the divinity

957
00:48:35,519 --> 00:48:39,679
is identical. It's isomorphically identical with the divine essence. So

958
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,039
if you say divine knowledge, divine mercy, divine justice, they

959
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,400
are the divine essence. And this becomes even more problematic

960
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,400
when Roman Catholics want to say that God is pure

961
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,079
act or act as purists, Well, is that also a

962
00:48:52,079 --> 00:48:55,840
predicate of the essence? So God's essence is pure act? Well,

963
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,440
if God is eternally pure act, then you're now in

964
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,400
these weird ari Resitilian categy glories of does he eternally

965
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,159
then move? What to be first act means that you're

966
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,239
always actualizing something else, and that would require an eternal

967
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,599
world to eternally actualize, and so that's why, for example

968
00:49:13,679 --> 00:49:18,119
Basil and the Hexameron. He criticizes Aristotle as a bitheist

969
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,119
he says, Aristotle believes in a diad because you have

970
00:49:21,159 --> 00:49:27,159
the eternal actualizer and what he actualizes eternally. So that's

971
00:49:27,639 --> 00:49:30,800
also a problem for the incarnation, because if you really

972
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:35,159
canosis Passage of Philippians too clearly, there's a willful self

973
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,199
limiting that the son did to step in the time

974
00:49:38,199 --> 00:49:41,360
and space. It's not the Father, it's not the spirit.

975
00:49:41,519 --> 00:49:44,599
It's one of the hypostases entering into a motive being

976
00:49:45,039 --> 00:49:47,519
that the other two do not. And if you have

977
00:49:47,599 --> 00:49:53,480
this really radical metaphysical commitment to an absolute neo platonic simplicity,

978
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,360
you have to understand, as Dock Bradshaw shows in his works,

979
00:49:56,559 --> 00:49:58,559
there's not just one model of divine simplicity in the

980
00:49:58,559 --> 00:50:02,360
Patricia era. The Capodocean model is not the neoplatonic model.

981
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:08,199
Origin and first principles, and Platinis and Augustine have the

982
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,360
same idea of what simplicity has to be. It's not

983
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,119
the same thing is that what the Cavedocians think simplicity

984
00:50:14,119 --> 00:50:17,679
has to be. So the Cavedocean model is first and

985
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:23,800
foremost concerned with defending the triad. The Western Augustinian or

986
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,639
Originist model is first and foremost concerned with the metaphysics

987
00:50:27,679 --> 00:50:32,400
of absolute simplicity and no distinctions. Right, so you can

988
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,079
see which model, obviously is more trinitarian. It's the cabin

989
00:50:35,079 --> 00:50:38,480
doocean model. That's what's that. Constantinople One and the Eastern

990
00:50:38,519 --> 00:50:41,159
Church fathers, as far as I'm aware, none of them

991
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:46,719
have the Augustinian speculation that Theophanes could be created things.

992
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,920
Every Orthodox Church father all the way back to Justin Marner,

993
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,599
all the way up to Whenever that Theophanes are really

994
00:50:53,679 --> 00:50:57,119
the logos in time and space. That requires the distinction,

995
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:01,800
and it requires this not often talked about idea of mode.

996
00:51:02,639 --> 00:51:06,159
Mode is very important for theology because it's the way

997
00:51:06,159 --> 00:51:08,639
a thing is, it's how a thing is, and so

998
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,159
it's the second person that God had entering into a

999
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:16,199
mode of being incarnate that the other two do not. Now,

1000
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,519
think about it, if God is an absolutely simple ball,

1001
00:51:19,639 --> 00:51:22,880
you can't have one of the ball be in a

1002
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,880
mode of being that the other two aren't, because you're

1003
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,519
basically moving in the direction of modalism. And so the

1004
00:51:29,559 --> 00:51:33,000
main problem with absolutely my simplicity, especially if you read

1005
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,280
even the Catholic just go to the cathlic and Psychopedia

1006
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,480
and read the entry on Eunomius.

1007
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 1: It sounds like Aquinas, Yeah, on that same kind of Actually,

1008
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,079
I saw that in the Tim Gordon debate where he

1009
00:51:49,159 --> 00:51:51,559
was saying the uh, Theophanes were created.

1010
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 2: Tim was just expressing the standard Tomas Cathy decision.

1011
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 1: Right, it does. I think you were You were right

1012
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,079
to harp on it a bit though, because that it

1013
00:52:00,119 --> 00:52:04,079
does sound ridiculous outloud. Absolutely, and you you had made

1014
00:52:04,079 --> 00:52:06,719
an argument a while ago that I thought was really

1015
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:10,519
interesting to think about that essence energy distinction is necessary

1016
00:52:10,599 --> 00:52:14,480
to have any kind of coherent Eucharistic theology, because otherwise

1017
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,360
you're saying what you're eating the essence of God.

1018
00:52:17,039 --> 00:52:19,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is an argument that I noticed reading St.

1019
00:52:19,199 --> 00:52:22,280
Cyril of Alexandria's two Letters to six Census. So they're

1020
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,440
not very long. I recommend everybody read it. You'll notice

1021
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,039
that in those letters Cyril says, clearly we are partaking

1022
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,559
of the deified flesh the god man that deified flesh

1023
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:36,440
is deified because he communicates his uncreated immortality to it

1024
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,519
to raise it, to deify it. And he says, we

1025
00:52:39,639 --> 00:52:42,400
all know we're not eating or particular of the divine

1026
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:47,400
usia fusis or essence. Yeah, what's the only other option.

1027
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,480
And by the way, if you read Cyril in many

1028
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,480
other places, he is very clear about the energies. Saint

1029
00:52:53,519 --> 00:52:56,440
Cerril explicitly teaches the essence and interestinction. So we know

1030
00:52:56,519 --> 00:53:00,360
that Cyril is arguing that the uncreated energy gees are

1031
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:05,480
what deify and permeate and penetrate the Eucharist, because that

1032
00:53:05,599 --> 00:53:09,000
is the deified flesh. And so the principal christology is

1033
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,440
the same for the principle of the Eucharist. That's only

1034
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,599
possible if you have the essenceentary distinction. And in the

1035
00:53:14,639 --> 00:53:18,679
Tomistic or the Roman Catholic scheme, I mean, who knows,

1036
00:53:18,679 --> 00:53:20,920
Like I've never really gotten a good answer. There is

1037
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:26,199
a really long discussion in uh, who's the who's the

1038
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:34,920
tomast Lagron Labron, excuse me about this? And he doesn't know.

1039
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting.

1040
00:53:37,519 --> 00:53:39,280
Speaker 2: I mean, why would't we just say what Cyril and

1041
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,119
the fourth councils and the third Council office to say,

1042
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:44,880
you're eating the defied flesh the gone man. Okay, well,

1043
00:53:45,199 --> 00:53:50,079
deified isn't a creative thing. And if you read Paula

1044
00:53:50,159 --> 00:53:53,360
MOS's debate with the Barlem, the whole debate shifts towards

1045
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,239
what we partake of, what we're participating in. And if

1046
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,760
the argument holds that you're partaking of uncreated raise, uncreated glory,

1047
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,760
then what's in the eu charus can't be just another creature.

1048
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: How much? How much time do you have? By the way,

1049
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:10,519
I didn't ask before we started.

1050
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,119
Speaker 2: Let's see what I've got? Some more time?

1051
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,280
Speaker 1: Okay, like thirty or an hour?

1052
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 2: Well, what do you How long do you usually go?

1053
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 1: I usually go two hours?

1054
00:54:20,039 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 2: Okay, how long we've been going?

1055
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 1: Uh, we probably have an hour left if you let's see,

1056
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,599
Uh we did that one. I'm an inquirer of my nearest.

1057
00:54:30,039 --> 00:54:33,239
My nearest parish has pews in an organ deal breaker

1058
00:54:33,599 --> 00:54:36,719
seems like a small thing indicative of a larger attitude

1059
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:37,960
of modernists. Has an organ?

1060
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 2: I mean it could be. I don't about modernism, except

1061
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:44,920
that a lot of times those kinds of it sounds

1062
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:46,800
like a Greek Orthodox church. Like a lot of times

1063
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:50,000
those churches are more so. I mean, they may be modernists,

1064
00:54:50,039 --> 00:54:52,559
but they a lot of times have like Roman Catholic influence.

1065
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:59,280
So I would just say, judge it. I'm not saying

1066
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,119
those things don't ma matter, but judge it. More so

1067
00:55:01,119 --> 00:55:03,800
on like, does the priests say heretical stuff?

1068
00:55:04,519 --> 00:55:09,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, Wi Fi gospel. Good to see you man, Praise

1069
00:55:09,559 --> 00:55:12,119
God for this collab. God bless you both. Hey, dude,

1070
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:18,760
become Orthodox. Dude, it's ending an Antiochian parish, but I'm

1071
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,639
thinking about moving given the current EP Should I consider

1072
00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:23,119
a Greek parish? Why or why not?

1073
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? Again, I wouldn't judge the parishes on the basis

1074
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,519
of what's happening at that level, because again, there's many,

1075
00:55:30,519 --> 00:55:35,039
many great parishes everywhere, So don't worry about the big

1076
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,119
I mean, it matters what's happening at the big geopolitical level,

1077
00:55:38,119 --> 00:55:40,559
but that doesn't matter so much for like your own

1078
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:46,360
parish unless you begin to notice specific In other words,

1079
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:48,639
don't judge it on that. Just go and just see

1080
00:55:48,639 --> 00:55:51,679
for yourself. That's that's the main issue. Yeah. We have

1081
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,880
had people though that have left some Greek churches for

1082
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:59,079
Russian churches eventually, so just be prepared that you might have.

1083
00:55:59,079 --> 00:56:03,159
Speaker 1: To, right you. I mean, I can speak about this

1084
00:56:03,199 --> 00:56:06,199
without being too scandalizing. Some of the advice that I

1085
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,519
got was ask if there's if there's a particular scandal

1086
00:56:09,559 --> 00:56:12,960
that you're concerned about. I mean, ask the priest how

1087
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,079
he feels about it without giving your opinion, and then

1088
00:56:15,079 --> 00:56:17,039
that'll basically tell you what you need to know.

1089
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good way to put.

1090
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,679
Speaker 1: Uh, howdy, I'm an inquirer and a jeweler. Would it

1091
00:56:23,679 --> 00:56:26,599
be okay for a non Orthodox to make and produce

1092
00:56:26,679 --> 00:56:28,320
Eastern Orthodox style jewelry?

1093
00:56:31,159 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 2: Well, if you're an inquirer, it sounds like you're moving

1094
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,079
that direction. But I mean I would I would maybe

1095
00:56:36,119 --> 00:56:39,880
wait till you're you are Orthodox before trying to cash

1096
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,079
in on it. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure. I'm

1097
00:56:42,079 --> 00:56:43,920
just taking a joke, but I mean I think it

1098
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,559
might come off as like grifty if you're like because

1099
00:56:47,559 --> 00:56:50,239
I think there was a dude a while back who, like,

1100
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,440
he wasn't Orthodox, but he started selling Orthodox prayer rugs

1101
00:56:54,559 --> 00:56:57,920
and prayer ropes and it's like, but you're not Orthodox,

1102
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,480
so he's just you know, I mean, I'm not judging

1103
00:57:00,519 --> 00:57:06,000
you forever wins, but you know, maybe just give it

1104
00:57:06,039 --> 00:57:07,079
some time before you do that.

1105
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, just become Orthodox, right now, dude, That'll be that

1106
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:12,840
would be the answer. Can you tell my mother in

1107
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:14,719
law that pigeon shouldn't have blue hair?

1108
00:57:16,519 --> 00:57:20,559
Speaker 2: Yes, mother in law, they do not have blue hair.

1109
00:57:20,639 --> 00:57:22,360
How's that there?

1110
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: You go go ahead and click that, man, Jay, can

1111
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,400
you get cleave his own CGI bookshelf?

1112
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 2: Nice?

1113
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:30,239
Speaker 1: Actually I want to move Yeah, but.

1114
00:57:30,199 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 2: It'll only have comment, It'll only have mango on it.

1115
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: That'd be terrible, dude. Yeah, I have I have a

1116
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,880
couple of overflowing bookshelves in the living room. I want

1117
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,000
to move them into this office space. I just got to, like,

1118
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,480
I have a bunch of boxes right behind this desk,

1119
00:57:45,719 --> 00:57:47,079
So I got to move them all out and then

1120
00:57:47,119 --> 00:57:50,480
move the stuff around. So it's coming along. It's coming along, man.

1121
00:57:50,599 --> 00:57:52,719
So eventually I'll have the bookshelves behind me and I

1122
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,400
can look smart and I can like my Scooby Doo

1123
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:56,239
book and say like.

1124
00:57:56,679 --> 00:57:59,159
Speaker 2: They're all cardboard, they're not real books. It's just it's

1125
00:57:59,159 --> 00:58:01,760
not they think it's that's actually just a set piece

1126
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:02,480
from a movie.

1127
00:58:02,719 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: It's just a bunch of cereal boxes in there. That'd

1128
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,119
be funny. As an ex Baptist, Jay, how are you

1129
00:58:10,199 --> 00:58:12,960
able to get comfortable with the marriology and icon veneration

1130
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,239
of Eastern Orthodoxy? This keeps me from trying Orthodoxy.

1131
00:58:17,159 --> 00:58:19,119
Speaker 2: I mean, well I wasn't really I didn't go from

1132
00:58:19,159 --> 00:58:23,440
Baptist to Roman Catholic. I went from Baptist to Calvinists,

1133
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,800
so I had kind of a phases of you know,

1134
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:28,920
I mean, I think for a lot of Baptists, especially

1135
00:58:29,039 --> 00:58:31,199
when I was a Reform Baptist, he's like James White.

1136
00:58:31,239 --> 00:58:34,199
And then the thing that kind of clicked was Covenant theology,

1137
00:58:34,199 --> 00:58:36,519
and then you get into infant baptism. So once you've

1138
00:58:36,519 --> 00:58:39,039
accepted infant baptism, you're kind of moving in the direction

1139
00:58:39,119 --> 00:58:41,360
of Sacramentoism, even if you don't want to admit it.

1140
00:58:42,079 --> 00:58:44,440
And so I remember the first time that I saw

1141
00:58:44,519 --> 00:58:47,800
a relic when I visited my local Roman Colloy church.

1142
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:49,960
We had a relic of Saint Jerome and they took

1143
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:51,679
me in there, and it did weird me out. The

1144
00:58:51,719 --> 00:58:54,079
first time I'd ever seen one. I was like, I

1145
00:58:54,119 --> 00:58:56,599
don't know about this. I mean, but I think over time,

1146
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,039
like you get really comfortable with you know, if you

1147
00:59:00,039 --> 00:59:02,599
you know, go watch the documentary that my buddy Lewis

1148
00:59:02,639 --> 00:59:05,840
made Christian Worshman the Old Testament, because you really see

1149
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,559
the continuity with the way that you know, the ancient

1150
00:59:09,639 --> 00:59:13,199
hebrew people who were the proto Christians, the way that

1151
00:59:13,239 --> 00:59:19,199
they viewed Holy things and objects. I really I just

1152
00:59:19,239 --> 00:59:25,719
came to realize that my Calvinist anti matter, anti image

1153
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:30,400
position was gnostic. It really wasn't even an ancient Hebrew

1154
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:35,119
position because they weren't iconoclass. So I guess the more

1155
00:59:35,159 --> 00:59:37,440
that I was around it, the more it kind of

1156
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,639
made sense. I also remember, I mean, I would recommend

1157
00:59:40,639 --> 00:59:43,039
this book even though he's a Roman Catholic, because you

1158
00:59:43,159 --> 00:59:46,280
kind of get the idea that, like if you remarriage

1159
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:49,000
supper with a lamb by Scott Hahn, I mean, he

1160
00:59:49,079 --> 00:59:51,599
has a good point about preterism at the beginning too.

1161
00:59:52,039 --> 00:59:54,760
The Book of Revelation is a liturgy, and once I

1162
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:58,679
understood the Book of Revelation as a liturgical service, it's

1163
00:59:58,679 --> 01:00:02,880
full of imagery. It's full of vestiments and elders and

1164
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,760
incense and you know, angels and all this imagery that

1165
01:00:07,239 --> 01:00:09,840
it just made no sense that God's using all this

1166
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,639
imagery but he's against imagery. It's just silly, right.

1167
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:20,159
Speaker 1: Millstash, Hey, fellas, I've been waiting for the both of

1168
01:00:20,199 --> 01:00:21,920
you to speak with each other. There's a couple of

1169
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:24,199
questions I wanted to ask, but I felt it necessary

1170
01:00:24,199 --> 01:00:26,760
to accompany the questions with my story a conversion is that. Okay,

1171
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:28,679
he sent me like a couple of things. I saved them.

1172
01:00:29,159 --> 01:00:31,320
But your comments are like broken up into like a

1173
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:33,840
million pieces. So I'm gonna pull up what I saw.

1174
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:39,559
There's one one big question here you said, hold on,

1175
01:00:39,719 --> 01:00:43,480
give me one second. Sorry dude, Okay, I'm gonna pull

1176
01:00:43,519 --> 01:00:44,920
up here. I'm gonna pull up the other thing because

1177
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:46,840
you sent like a million questions in here, I'll pull

1178
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,519
up the one I was. I was raised in a

1179
01:00:49,559 --> 01:00:52,760
Calvary chapel in southern California. Like many others, I joined

1180
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,199
Marine Corps. I joined the Marine Corps and ended up

1181
01:00:55,239 --> 01:00:58,760
falling away from the Lord. I never became an atheist, however,

1182
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:03,079
so I guess you're agnostic. I met my wife overseas

1183
01:01:03,119 --> 01:01:07,800
in Kazakhstan, so she's Muslim. So my first question as

1184
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,519
a Catechuman, how can I show her Christ? How can

1185
01:01:10,559 --> 01:01:13,480
I show her orthodoxy? Understand it may be detrimental to

1186
01:01:13,599 --> 01:01:15,960
my marriage if I quote unquote debate with her. So

1187
01:01:16,039 --> 01:01:16,559
what do I do?

1188
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:24,079
Speaker 2: Well? I mean, you know, women don't respond to theological

1189
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:27,679
argumentation the same as dudes, so you might not have

1190
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:31,840
the most success by kind of arguing, but it can

1191
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:36,679
be helpful to raise issues that are pretty big, like

1192
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:41,159
the Islamic dilemma or you know, Mohammed having child brides.

1193
01:01:41,199 --> 01:01:44,519
I mean, that's that's actually the thing that most Muslims

1194
01:01:44,599 --> 01:01:48,159
leave Islam over, is actually the Mohammed child bride issue.

1195
01:01:48,199 --> 01:01:50,079
When you know, I'm always over here trying to think

1196
01:01:50,079 --> 01:01:52,559
about Allah's attributes and all that. Like, they don't really

1197
01:01:52,639 --> 01:01:55,239
leave Islam because of that kind of stuff. Usually sometimes

1198
01:01:55,239 --> 01:01:57,599
they do, but so you might want to focus on

1199
01:01:57,679 --> 01:02:01,960
kind of those more glaring problems. Fart Hadith's I mean,

1200
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:04,840
this kind of silly stuff like that, as of Satan farts,

1201
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:08,719
which he doesn't have gut. He doesn't have a human gut,

1202
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:10,320
so I don't know how you would fart. But I

1203
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:12,880
mean it's just kind of like there's these really weird

1204
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:15,480
things that could probably plant maybe some seeds of doubt.

1205
01:02:15,519 --> 01:02:20,039
But you know, it just depends on whether she's interested

1206
01:02:20,079 --> 01:02:21,840
in that kind of stuff or not. So you might

1207
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:24,559
want to just kind of invite her to church, get

1208
01:02:24,559 --> 01:02:26,880
her to watch the Icon documentary something like that.

1209
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

1210
01:02:28,719 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1211
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 1: Something that Father John Whiteford said, with women oftentimes it's community.

1212
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 2: So I was gonna say people at church, right, community.

1213
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:41,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're able. If you know, like people who

1214
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:43,079
I don't know their wives go to the church you're

1215
01:02:43,079 --> 01:02:45,920
looking into attending, maybe get together with them. Because what

1216
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:49,559
I did, you know, because from my background, I was

1217
01:02:49,599 --> 01:02:52,360
an associate pastor at a Protestant church. So you know,

1218
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:54,719
we were super well connected. We had good friends. My

1219
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:58,360
wife had all their girlfriends there. She was attended women's groups,

1220
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,239
and you know, we're super plugged in. So the idea

1221
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:03,800
of moving from you know, one place to another one

1222
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:07,679
she knows nobody is daunting for anyone, you know. So

1223
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:10,320
I was very I was very lucky. I met up

1224
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:13,679
with Christian Mario actually, and you know, we got to

1225
01:03:13,679 --> 01:03:17,480
hang out and chat and had lunch after service, you know,

1226
01:03:17,519 --> 01:03:19,559
with him and his girlfriend. So it was like, oh,

1227
01:03:19,559 --> 01:03:21,599
these are like normal people, like, oh I've got friends here,

1228
01:03:21,679 --> 01:03:23,039
you know, Oh cool, I want to gohea and hang

1229
01:03:23,039 --> 01:03:25,239
out with them kind of deals. So that might be

1230
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:26,920
helpful about.

1231
01:03:26,719 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 2: Your wife as saying like, how does she respond to

1232
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,119
your orthodox.

1233
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:38,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean on board now at first

1234
01:03:38,519 --> 01:03:41,840
obviously some pushback for sure, Uh, you know, a couple

1235
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:46,199
not not for very long though. The way that I'm

1236
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:49,159
very blessed to have the wife that I have because

1237
01:03:49,159 --> 01:03:51,400
she just kind of trusts me, you know what I mean,

1238
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:56,920
Like I've I've I've guided us through you know, crazy

1239
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:58,800
waters in the past, so she just kind of trusts

1240
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:02,880
my judgment. Uh. But also I think the key is

1241
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:06,199
I've got a good kind of sense of when not

1242
01:04:06,239 --> 01:04:08,599
to push an issue. So the days she's maybe a

1243
01:04:08,639 --> 01:04:12,440
little more in her feelings or something, I'm not going

1244
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:13,840
to push the issue. I'm just gonna go do the

1245
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:14,599
dishes or something.

1246
01:04:14,679 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 2: No, when I said your transition, I meant your gender transition.

1247
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:19,400
Oh how does she handle that?

1248
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 1: And I'm just sure that's funny? Uh No, but she's

1249
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:29,199
uh in all, in all seriousness, now she's us she's

1250
01:04:29,239 --> 01:04:33,159
awesome with that. Let's see, Oh you sent in hold On,

1251
01:04:33,199 --> 01:04:34,719
you sent them something else. Let me get to your

1252
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:37,719
thing real quick. Oh you were saying, gosh, I can't

1253
01:04:37,719 --> 01:04:40,599
find your other comment. But this guy said his uh,

1254
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:44,800
his daughter had passed away, so I guess he was saying.

1255
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:47,760
What I found very comforting was that the Orthodox celebrate

1256
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:51,440
the Martyr Paris on my birthday, patron saint of unbaptized babies.

1257
01:04:52,199 --> 01:04:54,679
My second question directed at Jay, can I hold on

1258
01:04:54,719 --> 01:04:57,280
to that comfort that my daughter may be in heaven.

1259
01:04:58,559 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean in the Orthoury Church, we don't know

1260
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:05,400
anybody's destiny, and there's prayers for commending the non orthodox

1261
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:08,559
to God, so you know, we leave that up to God.

1262
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:14,079
Speaker 1: All right, let me get back up these questions here.

1263
01:05:20,519 --> 01:05:22,639
What's the date for when you'll be on Ruslan show?

1264
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:24,599
Are you going back on Ruslan show?

1265
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:28,159
Speaker 2: Now that I'm where? I mean, I was on Ruslan's

1266
01:05:28,159 --> 01:05:30,360
show a few months ago. Maybe they didn't know I

1267
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:30,840
was on there.

1268
01:05:31,679 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Could the burning bush be an energetic manifestation of

1269
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:37,239
the Father?

1270
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 2: I know, I think all the church fathers are in

1271
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,440
the scripture is very clear that that's the Son. You know,

1272
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:46,719
I think Jesus identifies himself as the one speaking. If

1273
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,880
you read Exos three and then twenty three, the voice

1274
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,000
that's speaking out of the bush is identified as the

1275
01:05:53,079 --> 01:05:57,599
same angel presence in chapter twenty three, and that's where

1276
01:05:57,599 --> 01:06:00,440
God says, I will put my name in this angel

1277
01:06:00,519 --> 01:06:03,360
that will go before you. So it's the same voice

1278
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,079
speaking out of the burning bush. And when I mentioned

1279
01:06:06,119 --> 01:06:09,800
an energetic menifestation proper to the Father, I just referenced

1280
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:12,599
the case of where you know, the Father says this

1281
01:06:12,679 --> 01:06:15,719
is my beloved son, you know, clearly, that's at the

1282
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:21,360
Baptism of Christ, at Theophany, that's the Father speaking clearly

1283
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,679
in the tongues of fire. At Pentecost, that's the Holy Spirit.

1284
01:06:25,599 --> 01:06:30,599
But we don't have any incarnation of the Father or

1285
01:06:30,639 --> 01:06:34,559
the Holy Spirit. We have these manifestations, which the Icon Council,

1286
01:06:34,719 --> 01:06:38,679
the Moscow Icon councils say are the energetic manifestations proper

1287
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:43,599
to those persons, but they are not the hypostaces themselves incarnate.

1288
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:46,480
And really they're just trying to guard against the idea

1289
01:06:46,559 --> 01:06:48,639
that the Roman Catholics were pushing that you could have

1290
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:53,000
this old man Jesus next to an old man God,

1291
01:06:53,079 --> 01:06:56,000
the Father next to Jesus, and the Holy Spirit kind

1292
01:06:56,039 --> 01:06:58,800
of shooting out between them, which is philly oquay. So

1293
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:00,920
they're really just trying to guard again, it's that stuff

1294
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:04,480
with weird kind of you know, and they kind of

1295
01:07:04,519 --> 01:07:07,559
call it pagan too, right, Like God, the Father isn't

1296
01:07:07,599 --> 01:07:10,639
an old man, he didn't become incarnate, he doesn't have

1297
01:07:10,679 --> 01:07:13,679
a body. Jesus says, no one has seen the Father

1298
01:07:13,719 --> 01:07:17,519
at any time, so it's really not proper to have

1299
01:07:17,639 --> 01:07:20,760
that kind of imagery. But I think that pretty clearly. No,

1300
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:24,760
the all, all of the Theophanic manifestations in the Old Testament,

1301
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:28,280
even though they're trinitarian, because anytime one person of the

1302
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:30,599
trinities there the other the other two are as well,

1303
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:33,440
but they have unique roles and it is not the

1304
01:07:33,559 --> 01:07:37,400
Father's role to be incarnate, hence it is the son.

1305
01:07:40,239 --> 01:07:43,840
Speaker 1: Can you quickly define personhood? I can't conceptualize the Holy

1306
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:44,679
Spirit as a person.

1307
01:07:46,079 --> 01:07:49,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Orthodox theology usually with it, whether it's singular

1308
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:54,400
or polemis or any earlier church fathers. Hypostasis is persona

1309
01:07:54,519 --> 01:07:58,320
or subject or agent, so it refers to the one

1310
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:02,039
who does the action. So if you think about the

1311
01:08:02,159 --> 01:08:07,639
question of what what refers to the nature, then the

1312
01:08:07,679 --> 01:08:11,920
question of who who refers to the person. So in orthodoxeology,

1313
01:08:12,039 --> 01:08:15,719
the fundamental number one thing is the distinction between nature

1314
01:08:15,719 --> 01:08:18,439
and person. So all Trinitarian theology is based on this

1315
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:24,680
nature person distinction. We Lossie, My allergies are going crazy

1316
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:27,880
in Texas, Dude, it's awful. So you've got this thinction

1317
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:31,680
between nature and person. That's also necessary for human anthropology,

1318
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:35,880
distinguish between I'm the person, Jay, You're the person, Bob,

1319
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:42,000
we're unique instantiated individual persons, subjects, or agents. But we

1320
01:08:42,079 --> 01:08:45,000
have the same nature. We both share human nature. So

1321
01:08:45,239 --> 01:08:48,319
nature is human. Nature is universal, but it's instantiated in

1322
01:08:48,359 --> 01:08:52,439
the specific subjects or agents that have that nature. And so,

1323
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:54,479
but a person is more than just an instance of

1324
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:57,359
a nature. It's the actual subject, the who, the doer.

1325
01:08:58,359 --> 01:09:00,840
And so in terms of the trend, there are three

1326
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:04,880
Who's right, there are three subjects or agents with one nature.

1327
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:08,079
So the Holy Spirit is a person because if you

1328
01:09:08,159 --> 01:09:12,920
read John fourteen fifteen sixteen, you'll notice that he is

1329
01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:15,279
doing the same things that the Father and the Sun

1330
01:09:15,319 --> 01:09:17,399
are doing. That tells you he's a person.

1331
01:09:19,039 --> 01:09:21,000
Speaker 1: When you when you talk about something serious and I

1332
01:09:21,079 --> 01:09:22,680
just read the chat and I see something funny, I

1333
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:24,359
try not to bust out laughing in the middle.

1334
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:26,800
Speaker 2: I know I do the same thing. Dude.

1335
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:29,039
Speaker 1: Why is the channel called antique cleavage?

1336
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 2: I don't know what it's because I got it right here.

1337
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:34,600
Don't go on a little bit of this right here.

1338
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:39,800
That's what this is all about.

1339
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,640
Speaker 1: This is that's what that's actually what the channel's about.

1340
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:44,479
This isn't a Q and A.

1341
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:47,239
Speaker 2: It's just now this is I'm actually in the process

1342
01:09:47,239 --> 01:09:50,479
of transitioning. Like I mentioned, earlier, and so here's cleavage

1343
01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:51,840
to antiquity. Yeah.

1344
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:53,560
Speaker 1: Thanks, I got to ask my wife what she thinks

1345
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:54,479
about your transition.

1346
01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:59,359
Speaker 2: Your wife might get guilty, guilty of these double d's

1347
01:09:59,359 --> 01:09:59,880
over here.

1348
01:10:00,159 --> 01:10:05,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go, man, Hey, J and Ben, what

1349
01:10:05,279 --> 01:10:08,439
are the best arguments for the invocation of the Saints

1350
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:11,239
being biblical and not necromancy, idolatry, etc.

1351
01:10:11,399 --> 01:10:16,760
Speaker 2: Etc. There's a Protestant dude. What's that guy's name? He

1352
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:18,880
always calls in. We had some kind of debate a

1353
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:23,359
while back. He's the Hispanic dude that's always arguing with

1354
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:26,960
Sam Schuman. I can't remember that guy's name, but we

1355
01:10:27,039 --> 01:10:28,720
ended up having like a really good, like ten or

1356
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:31,319
fifteen minute discussion on this, and it got clipped. I

1357
01:10:31,359 --> 01:10:33,920
just can't think of that guy's name. But the best

1358
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:37,279
argument is that I think Revelation five through nine, as

1359
01:10:37,319 --> 01:10:40,680
we said earlier, if you come to that text with

1360
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:43,720
the understanding that it is kind of a heavenly liturgical

1361
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:46,359
worship service, you'll come away with the idea that John

1362
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:49,279
is interacting with and communicating with the saints in heaven,

1363
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:52,560
the saints in heaven under the altar, the martyrs, et cetera.

1364
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:55,439
They're praying for and they're praying for also in pregatory

1365
01:10:56,119 --> 01:10:59,720
vengeance on earth. They're praying for the saints on the earth.

1366
01:11:00,119 --> 01:11:03,159
You have angels offering the prayers of the saints on

1367
01:11:03,239 --> 01:11:06,319
earth in you know, as the as as if it

1368
01:11:06,359 --> 01:11:10,479
was incense. And so no, it's not contradictory. In fact,

1369
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:15,079
some of the Jewish sects believe that there are intercess

1370
01:11:15,039 --> 01:11:19,680
free prayers. The Book of Amos, Amos intercedes for Israel,

1371
01:11:20,279 --> 01:11:23,279
and God listens to Amos's prayer and he says, if

1372
01:11:23,319 --> 01:11:26,159
you had not prayed, Amos, I would have destroyed Israel.

1373
01:11:26,159 --> 01:11:29,560
But you prayed, you interceded. And so the argument is

1374
01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:32,880
just simply, well, if Amos is interceding as a living

1375
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:36,319
sinful man on earth, then the saints who have been

1376
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:40,000
purified in heaven praying, how much more effective are their prayers?

1377
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:44,159
And David in the Psalms as well, speaks to the angels.

1378
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:46,239
And remember the psalms are liturgical. I think a lot

1379
01:11:46,239 --> 01:11:47,800
of Protestants and when I was just sweat, when I

1380
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:50,840
was Protestant, I didn't think about these texts as liturgical text.

1381
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:52,279
That was just foreign to me. I just thought, oh,

1382
01:11:52,279 --> 01:11:55,640
the Bible is this you know Holy guide Book and

1383
01:11:56,600 --> 01:12:03,000
David's psalms are meant to be temple liturgy songs, right,

1384
01:12:04,279 --> 01:12:10,000
and in that context, he's speaking to angels in the liturgy. Yeah.

1385
01:12:10,039 --> 01:12:13,760
Speaker 1: I talked about it briefly too in the in the

1386
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:15,840
video I did with Orthodox Ethos when I was on

1387
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,199
that show. And one of the things that kind of

1388
01:12:18,239 --> 01:12:20,640
convinced me was I had a conversation with an Anglican

1389
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:24,960
priest we're talking about where we were talking about where

1390
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:27,920
Protestants and Orthodox and Roman Catholics agree as far as

1391
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:29,760
intercession of the saints. We're trying to get to like

1392
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:33,319
the roots the root disagreement, and it's okay, Well, we

1393
01:12:33,359 --> 01:12:36,199
agree that they're alive. The Saints are alive in heaven

1394
01:12:36,239 --> 01:12:38,840
because God has got living, not the dead. They're praying

1395
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:41,520
for us. That's, you know, Revelation. I believe Revelation eight

1396
01:12:41,880 --> 01:12:44,279
is the prayers of the saints report out so on

1397
01:12:44,319 --> 01:12:45,960
and so forth, so we know they're alive and they're

1398
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,960
praying in heaven. That the contention is that we feel,

1399
01:12:49,359 --> 01:12:52,159
or we felt I guess I felt as a Protestant

1400
01:12:52,239 --> 01:12:56,479
at that time, the disagreement would be that we shouldn't

1401
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:59,319
ask the saints to pray for us because prayer should

1402
01:12:59,359 --> 01:13:01,720
be directed to God only. The way that I kind

1403
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:04,439
of got around that and this is like a people

1404
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:06,800
people misunderstood this when I said this in the in

1405
01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:10,159
the video. This isn't normative. This is kind of a

1406
01:13:10,159 --> 01:13:13,399
loophole if you are on the fence and maybe you

1407
01:13:13,439 --> 01:13:15,800
don't know, like you're you're uncomfortable with it is just

1408
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:17,680
to get you to try at one time, which is

1409
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:20,840
what I did. And look at me now, but ask

1410
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:23,600
God to ask the theotokos to pray for you, Like

1411
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:25,560
if you're uncomfortable, you could do that. I mean that's

1412
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:27,680
what the Anglican priest said to me. He was like,

1413
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:30,119
that's what That's why I asked God to ask the

1414
01:13:30,079 --> 01:13:32,239
theotokos to pray. And I'm thinking about that in the moment.

1415
01:13:32,279 --> 01:13:34,760
I'm like, that sounds kind of dumb. But you know what,

1416
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:36,720
I couldn't think of anything wrong with that at all.

1417
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:40,560
Uh So I did. And uh I mean it's kind

1418
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:43,119
of like a little little gateway there for you to,

1419
01:13:43,439 --> 01:13:45,600
I guess, open yourself up to that practice. Because no

1420
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:49,359
Protestant could point me out anything wrong with asking God

1421
01:13:49,399 --> 01:13:51,239
did do that. They might say it's silly, right, But

1422
01:13:51,279 --> 01:13:53,359
look at James. The Book of James says that the

1423
01:13:53,399 --> 01:13:56,199
prayers of the righteous avail off much. So why wouldn't

1424
01:13:56,199 --> 01:13:58,520
you want the Mother of God to be interceding on

1425
01:13:58,560 --> 01:13:59,439
your behalf before God?

1426
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:02,640
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think Also, let's keep in mind what necromancy

1427
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:06,479
and all that is. That is you trying to get

1428
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:10,760
forbidden information, secret information from a spirit that is not

1429
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:15,520
what's happening in terms of liturgical prayer and asking for

1430
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:18,880
other people to pray for you. There is no special

1431
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:22,079
gnosis that the Saint comes and gives you some divination

1432
01:14:22,239 --> 01:14:25,039
or something like that. So it's not necromancy. When they

1433
01:14:25,039 --> 01:14:27,399
ask Jesus, you know, the Pharisees asked, Jesus says, and

1434
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:31,079
John he says, God is not the God of the dead.

1435
01:14:31,119 --> 01:14:33,960
He's got a living So they live to God, and

1436
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:36,359
so they are not the dead, they are alive to God.

1437
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:41,159
Speaker 1: I just want to say thanks for the content recently

1438
01:14:41,199 --> 01:14:43,920
found both of you and have been so impressed and grateful. Hey,

1439
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:48,199
thanks man, appreciate it. Hey guys, big fan for Jay.

1440
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:50,960
Do you think there are other philosophical arguments for God

1441
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:54,479
that rank like tag such as contingency argument argument God

1442
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:54,800
bless you.

1443
01:14:54,880 --> 01:14:56,239
Speaker 2: No, I don't think any of them are very good.

1444
01:14:56,359 --> 01:15:00,760
I mean, you can reformulate most of the cloud arguments

1445
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:03,319
to be a kind of transcendental argument to make them better.

1446
01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:07,319
But the problem is not whether there's causation or whether

1447
01:15:07,359 --> 01:15:09,479
there's t lo's or something like that. It's just that

1448
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:13,680
depending upon the atheists or the how cunning or smart

1449
01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:16,079
the atheist is that you're talking to, they're going to

1450
01:15:16,199 --> 01:15:20,439
just question the things that the contingency argument assumes. So,

1451
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:22,920
I mean it might be it might work to argue

1452
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:25,359
that way with like your coworker or something like that.

1453
01:15:25,399 --> 01:15:28,079
But if you encounter an intelligent atheist professor and you

1454
01:15:28,119 --> 01:15:30,279
try to use a contingency argument, he's going to shoot

1455
01:15:30,319 --> 01:15:32,680
it down right away. So you need be prepared for

1456
01:15:33,279 --> 01:15:37,600
the types of critiques that skeptical atheists professors are going

1457
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:41,319
to use for those kinds of arguments. Even if they

1458
01:15:42,359 --> 01:15:45,920
work pragmatically to convert a coworker or something like that,

1459
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:49,760
he's not a sophisticated philosophy dork. I still think we

1460
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:52,399
should strive to have, you know, the stronger arguments. So no,

1461
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:57,000
I would not use the contingency argument unless I've reformulated it.

1462
01:15:57,239 --> 01:16:01,199
As a transcendental version of that kind of an argument,

1463
01:16:01,199 --> 01:16:06,000
where like like I like, let's say causation, right, Like,

1464
01:16:06,039 --> 01:16:08,479
I'm not going to make a cosmological argument, but I'll say,

1465
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:14,239
if you don't have the principle of causation as a presupposition,

1466
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:19,279
then knowledge and the world is impossible.

1467
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:25,199
Speaker 1: Yeah. We were just using tag today, me, Mario and

1468
01:16:25,239 --> 01:16:29,279
Luigi when an atheist called into Mario's livestream. I was

1469
01:16:29,319 --> 01:16:31,479
sitting there. I was I was multitasking, I was lifting

1470
01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:35,800
weights and and talking to atheists. That's kind of cool

1471
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:41,159
actually fun fact, my my sister, who was an atheist,

1472
01:16:42,079 --> 01:16:45,119
became a Christian after hearing me run TAG, which I

1473
01:16:45,199 --> 01:16:48,199
learned from your channel. By the way, Jay On her

1474
01:16:48,319 --> 01:16:50,359
now husband, who's her boyfriend at the time. So she

1475
01:16:50,399 --> 01:16:53,560
overheard that argument and I was running tag. I got

1476
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:55,760
him to get to the point where I was like, dude,

1477
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:57,600
can you even tell me if the watermelon on the

1478
01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:01,479
table exists through your paradigm? And he's like no, okay.

1479
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:03,720
MYS was like, all right, this is stupid. I can't

1480
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:05,279
be an atheist anymore. So it's just kind of to

1481
01:17:05,319 --> 01:17:07,199
point out the ridiculousness of that it is.

1482
01:17:07,279 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 2: And I mean When you say that, people be like,

1483
01:17:10,079 --> 01:17:12,920
what do you mean is does the watermelon exist? It's

1484
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:15,520
so ridiculous. It's not because if you read somebody like

1485
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:20,960
Bertrand Russell, I mean in Scientific Outlook, he admits in

1486
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:25,199
the first several chapters, he's like, modern science and skepticism

1487
01:17:25,239 --> 01:17:27,279
has gotten us to this point where we can't even

1488
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:30,880
know or prove that there is an external world. Yeah,

1489
01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:32,800
he says, there is no proof for it. We don't know.

1490
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:35,600
We just have to act like there is one. You

1491
01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:38,000
can't prove it though. So in other words, the top

1492
01:17:38,039 --> 01:17:38,920
atheist admit that.

1493
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:44,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so did the guy that called in in that livestream.

1494
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:46,159
He was like, oh yeah, I'm a radical skeptic. I

1495
01:17:46,159 --> 01:17:48,039
don't know anything. Okay, great words the debate.

1496
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:51,520
Speaker 2: Exactly how are we going to use logic to debate

1497
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:53,359
when you don't know that there is such a thing?

1498
01:17:53,760 --> 01:17:54,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

1499
01:17:55,399 --> 01:17:55,520
Speaker 2: Uh.

1500
01:17:56,079 --> 01:17:58,520
Speaker 1: You guys should tag team Islam, Jay and Cleeve to

1501
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:05,000
Antiquity versus Jake the Muscle Metaphysician and Trent Direrty. Trent's

1502
01:18:05,039 --> 01:18:08,439
Trent's Trench is retired. You won't see any more videos

1503
01:18:09,199 --> 01:18:15,680
from Trent, So no Trent Trent Doherty, the Roman Catholic guy. Yeah,

1504
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:18,000
he's done. He's not he's not doing any more stuff

1505
01:18:18,119 --> 01:18:21,159
after after the debate that you had, and then I

1506
01:18:21,199 --> 01:18:25,520
debated him shortly after that, he's not coming back. I

1507
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:27,439
mean unless he changes his mind. But that was the

1508
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:29,720
last word, was he's done.

1509
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:33,600
Speaker 2: Well. He didn't do too well.

1510
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:36,560
Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't I don't blame him. Pray for

1511
01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:39,079
that guy, Pray that he becomes Orthodox. There about that

1512
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:43,239
serious question, if did I get he he wants to

1513
01:18:43,239 --> 01:18:47,439
know if you're willing to debate the true Orthodox guy, nft.

1514
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:50,640
Speaker 2: I've been. They've been pushing that for years. I'm not issued.

1515
01:18:52,520 --> 01:18:54,800
Speaker 1: Temple art. My dad went to high school with Mike

1516
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:57,439
Tate from DC Talk, was friends with those guys before

1517
01:18:57,439 --> 01:19:03,239
and during their blow up. Cool tuning in from Jordanville,

1518
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:06,960
curious to hear Ben's current take on the Biblical canons

1519
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:10,560
affirmed at Trulla from y'all's origin. I wasn't talking about

1520
01:19:10,560 --> 01:19:12,920
the Bible canon at the end that debate. We were

1521
01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:16,880
talking about Yeah, so I don't know what you're what

1522
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:19,399
you mean, I will be doing so for those of

1523
01:19:19,479 --> 01:19:23,319
you that are interested, I will be doing like debunk

1524
01:19:23,399 --> 01:19:26,520
myself streams so I'm gonna go back and pull up

1525
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:30,039
my my old arguments, and I'll be watching through my

1526
01:19:30,159 --> 01:19:34,960
videos and critiquing my arguments. I'm gonna have I forget

1527
01:19:34,960 --> 01:19:37,079
the name of that Lutheran pastor I've had on my

1528
01:19:37,119 --> 01:19:39,560
show a couple of times, Josh Shuoping, the guy that

1529
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:42,319
was he was a former Orthodox priest. I had him

1530
01:19:42,359 --> 01:19:46,199
on my show twice, and some of those arguments really

1531
01:19:46,199 --> 01:19:48,920
didn't sit well with me even then, So I was like,

1532
01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:51,079
I think that's probably gonna be the first one I

1533
01:19:51,359 --> 01:19:54,760
go back and debunk, because I get a lot of

1534
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:58,560
people that will message me and say they were actually

1535
01:19:59,199 --> 01:20:01,720
convinced by some of those and I don't know. For me,

1536
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:05,520
I think they're like, there's glaring holes in a lot

1537
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:07,479
of those arguments, so those need to be addressed. First,

1538
01:20:09,439 --> 01:20:12,720
not to brag. I open for skillet at Pillar at

1539
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:17,640
two fests. Awesome, dude, nice question, Cleeve. If you adopted

1540
01:20:17,680 --> 01:20:20,600
a prayer rule, Jay, what does your prayer rule look like?

1541
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:23,760
And how often do you confess? Also, what's your Social

1542
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:25,279
Security number? What's your last one?

1543
01:20:25,319 --> 01:20:27,000
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, I'm not going to answer that. Because I

1544
01:20:27,039 --> 01:20:29,560
do have a spiritual father. You can come meet him

1545
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:31,920
if you come to the conference, but I'm not going

1546
01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:33,760
to tell you all my personal stuff.

1547
01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:37,880
Speaker 1: For one, I'm willing to become Orthodox, But what if

1548
01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:40,279
your parents won't allow you to become one and you

1549
01:20:40,359 --> 01:20:41,399
live far from the church.

1550
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:48,359
Speaker 2: Usually priests will counsel you that you can kind of

1551
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:51,560
privately in an interior way of the Orthodox because you

1552
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:54,119
are under your parents. And then once you're eighteen, you

1553
01:20:54,159 --> 01:20:57,039
can make your own decision and you can move near

1554
01:20:57,119 --> 01:20:58,880
one or you know, do what you want. So that's

1555
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:00,399
usually what priest wills say.

1556
01:21:03,359 --> 01:21:07,079
Speaker 1: Apostolic Christianity is fake. What does the church say about

1557
01:21:07,079 --> 01:21:09,520
the Church of the East and Rome evangelizing a good

1558
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:10,359
chunk of the world.

1559
01:21:10,439 --> 01:21:18,760
Speaker 2: First, I guess you could say that they prepare the

1560
01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:25,039
way for the Orthodox Church. I mean, we're not going

1561
01:21:25,119 --> 01:21:29,159
to make a blanket condemnation that everybody's automatically damned because

1562
01:21:29,199 --> 01:21:34,119
it was heterodox you know, evangelization. But also we will

1563
01:21:34,439 --> 01:21:38,720
just be honest and forth right about what's very lacking

1564
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:41,800
and a lot of that catechisis and approach. For example,

1565
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:45,239
think about you know, Roman Catholics love to tell the numbers,

1566
01:21:45,279 --> 01:21:48,560
the numbers, the numbers, but a lot of those converts

1567
01:21:48,680 --> 01:21:51,359
in Latin and South America. I mean they practice condomble a,

1568
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:55,640
they practice santaria. The notion of conversion is very very loose.

1569
01:21:55,920 --> 01:21:59,119
It's it's very tied up with the you know, the

1570
01:21:59,159 --> 01:22:02,560
indigenous pagan traditions. And I don't mean picking in a

1571
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:06,960
baptizing Christianity type of way, but no like actual you know,

1572
01:22:07,119 --> 01:22:10,720
forbidden practices type of stuff. So it's like you can

1573
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:14,319
say that, yeah, we got all the numbers, but the

1574
01:22:14,399 --> 01:22:17,920
numbers don't matter if people aren't getting good catechises. In fact,

1575
01:22:17,920 --> 01:22:20,800
it might even make it worse. I'm not saying that

1576
01:22:20,920 --> 01:22:25,479
Mexican human sacrifice should should have remained and that the

1577
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:29,680
Spanish shouldn't have you know, Christianized you know Mexico or whatever.

1578
01:22:29,760 --> 01:22:33,720
But I'm saying when you have bad catechises a lot

1579
01:22:33,720 --> 01:22:36,920
of times that can be even worse than no catequiss

1580
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:41,279
So you know, there's no easy answers to that. But

1581
01:22:41,359 --> 01:22:45,039
I think this even if you're a Roman Catholic or

1582
01:22:45,039 --> 01:22:48,640
you were an Apostolic Christianity person, I mean, the tables

1583
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:50,840
could be turned. The same question could be asked, like

1584
01:22:53,039 --> 01:22:57,439
what why why did Rome have a problem with the

1585
01:22:57,560 --> 01:23:01,640
yeast splitting for a thousand years, but now after Vatican

1586
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:04,720
Two where two lungs of the same church, and rat

1587
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:08,199
Singer says that the East maintained the faith without the papacy.

1588
01:23:08,279 --> 01:23:11,880
So it's a it's just really kind of a a

1589
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:13,399
difficult question for anybody.

1590
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:18,000
Speaker 1: M Yeah, I was talking about this with dph on

1591
01:23:18,079 --> 01:23:20,319
his show, and he was he was telling me some

1592
01:23:20,359 --> 01:23:23,399
of the uh, I guess into the world claims have

1593
01:23:23,479 --> 01:23:27,079
to do with the Orthodox the actual Gospel getting out

1594
01:23:27,079 --> 01:23:29,720
to all these nations. So I guess there was some

1595
01:23:29,800 --> 01:23:33,479
saint prophecy that was talking about the Orthodox Gospel has

1596
01:23:33,479 --> 01:23:35,359
to reach all of the nations because of the true Gospel,

1597
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:36,720
and then then you'll see, h.

1598
01:23:37,039 --> 01:23:39,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could see that being the case. I don't

1599
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:42,199
have any hard commitments on that. I would probably tend

1600
01:23:42,239 --> 01:23:47,279
towards that position. I've always still favored an optimistic awmill

1601
01:23:47,399 --> 01:23:50,439
or post millennial type position, so I've never I've never

1602
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:53,479
been like this sort of pessimistic type of mind, but

1603
01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:57,159
that could be the case. I'm also not really super

1604
01:23:57,199 --> 01:24:00,960
deep into the Elder Saint prophet to see stuff. I'm

1605
01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:04,039
not opposed to it, it's just I don't really get

1606
01:24:04,039 --> 01:24:04,840
into that too much.

1607
01:24:07,079 --> 01:24:09,680
Speaker 1: Clarification on that super chat there. I thought you had

1608
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:14,159
made an argument at one point Trulau accepted multiple biblical canons. Yeah, yeah,

1609
01:24:14,199 --> 01:24:18,359
I did. I mean it's it does you read the

1610
01:24:18,359 --> 01:24:21,560
Council of Trula, It accepts multiple different regional councils, so

1611
01:24:22,359 --> 01:24:23,399
that wasn't in our debate though.

1612
01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:27,079
Speaker 2: I think the canon, though it specified the specification is

1613
01:24:27,119 --> 01:24:31,239
that it's Carthage, and Carthage has basically the same canon

1614
01:24:31,319 --> 01:24:36,720
as what the Roman decision that the Council of Rome

1615
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:40,760
under Damasis has, so Carthage and around the same time

1616
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:43,760
as Council Rome around the year four hundred. I think

1617
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:47,439
it's Trelo Mensche specifically, which Carthage they're referring to. I

1618
01:24:47,439 --> 01:24:49,439
don't remember which one it is. I'll talk there's a

1619
01:24:49,439 --> 01:24:52,840
bunch of Carthage, but the one that's about the canon

1620
01:24:52,960 --> 01:24:56,520
is pretty much the same as the Latin canon. Yeah.

1621
01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:58,079
Speaker 1: Yeah. He was talking about a video I did a

1622
01:24:58,119 --> 01:25:02,279
while back that was talking about the orth Cannon, and

1623
01:25:02,359 --> 01:25:05,279
I was mentioning that it that exact point, it matches

1624
01:25:05,319 --> 01:25:08,680
the Latin canon, not necessarily what the Orthodox have, but

1625
01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:11,560
you can look at the the Confession of Dycytheus, which

1626
01:25:11,680 --> 01:25:14,600
will clarify as well. I guess the only asterisk there

1627
01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:16,960
would be it doesn't specify the number of Maccabees. It

1628
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:20,119
just says the Maccabees. So uh, but you can you

1629
01:25:20,159 --> 01:25:23,359
can point to that which which kind of works in

1630
01:25:23,399 --> 01:25:25,880
our favor too, with the with the additional Maccabees and

1631
01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:30,520
the Georgian cannon too. So let's see. Good question, dude.

1632
01:25:31,039 --> 01:25:33,279
But I'll be again. I'll be doing videos going back

1633
01:25:33,319 --> 01:25:36,000
at debunking my old arguments, so stay tuned for that.

1634
01:25:37,119 --> 01:25:39,920
I'm not asking this to be a smart ass. I'm

1635
01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:42,239
an inquirer to Eastern Orthodox and I'm struggling with a

1636
01:25:42,359 --> 01:25:46,720
letter from Ucbius to Constantine's sister. What bothers me? He

1637
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:50,000
doesn't clarify the difference between the statues he took from

1638
01:25:50,039 --> 01:25:53,640
it took and from icon I don't understand that last

1639
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:54,720
part of your question, dude.

1640
01:25:55,399 --> 01:25:57,279
Speaker 2: I think some of those people will refer to this

1641
01:25:57,600 --> 01:25:59,600
and they think that I mean, I could be wrong.

1642
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:01,800
Maybe the it's not what he means. But sometimes this

1643
01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:05,279
argument is brought up if I recall as an argument

1644
01:26:05,319 --> 01:26:09,800
against icons, but I think he's talking about like pagan statues,

1645
01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:14,800
and so sometimes iconoclass take those comments where like Origin

1646
01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:18,159
or Eusebius is saying, and we remove the unholy images

1647
01:26:18,199 --> 01:26:20,520
and with this so that but in the context they're

1648
01:26:20,520 --> 01:26:24,760
actually talking about like pagan gods and you know, like statues,

1649
01:26:25,039 --> 01:26:28,800
if heroes being worshiped. They're not actually talking about the

1650
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:31,960
types of things using the liturgy. But that may not

1651
01:26:32,000 --> 01:26:32,840
be what he's talking about.

1652
01:26:32,840 --> 01:26:35,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, Tyler big super chatty, thank you so much.

1653
01:26:36,119 --> 01:26:38,960
I converted last year. I noticed clergy off and highlight

1654
01:26:39,039 --> 01:26:43,159
seminary credentials, yet the fathers and saints emphasized monastic hes,

1655
01:26:43,159 --> 01:26:46,279
hechasm and illumination of the news. A theologist one who

1656
01:26:46,279 --> 01:26:51,600
praise has orthodoxy drifted towards scholasticism today.

1657
01:26:52,119 --> 01:26:55,880
Speaker 2: I mean, you could probably lodge that criticism with areas

1658
01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:58,840
of the West, but I don't think it's necessarily wrong

1659
01:26:58,920 --> 01:27:02,520
to have the qualification of the criteria. For example, Saint

1660
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:07,479
Photius was widely known as the most learned man of Bysantheum.

1661
01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:10,720
I mean, he probably wasn't touting that, But it's also

1662
01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:13,439
part of just the culture today that people list their

1663
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:19,319
qualifications for speaking on subjects. So I wouldn't necessarily link

1664
01:27:19,439 --> 01:27:22,760
having your PhD and your title or something as necessarily

1665
01:27:22,840 --> 01:27:26,119
meaning that they're not spiritual. I think that would be

1666
01:27:26,159 --> 01:27:31,319
a false either or but I think separate from the titles, Yeah,

1667
01:27:31,319 --> 01:27:33,439
I think everybody in the West has been infected with

1668
01:27:34,359 --> 01:27:38,039
enlightenment and scholastic tendencies. Yeah.

1669
01:27:38,039 --> 01:27:41,840
Speaker 1: They were just talking about this on I guess the

1670
01:27:42,439 --> 01:27:45,039
Ancient Faith Radio thing. I popped in for like a second.

1671
01:27:45,359 --> 01:27:48,680
I normally not a huge fan or I haven't really

1672
01:27:48,680 --> 01:27:52,760
watched it too much, but they were saying there was

1673
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:55,439
a crisis with the convert surge and what they were

1674
01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:58,199
thinking about. They were kind of brainstorming solutions to it,

1675
01:27:58,239 --> 01:28:00,920
and they were saying in the in the American context,

1676
01:28:01,199 --> 01:28:04,039
it's very unique because they will force people want to

1677
01:28:04,079 --> 01:28:07,439
become priests, to travel and go to seminary at specific locations,

1678
01:28:07,479 --> 01:28:10,680
a lot them move. So you're saying maybe adopting the

1679
01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:13,279
model that is present already in the East, which is

1680
01:28:13,359 --> 01:28:18,560
like more of an apprenticeship, like you're you're kind of learning. Yeah,

1681
01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:20,319
so that's what they were talking about on that show.

1682
01:28:20,319 --> 01:28:21,760
I saw it pop back up. That's what I was

1683
01:28:21,760 --> 01:28:27,680
looking at here on my phone here Ortho Christian Orthodox Christianity,

1684
01:28:27,720 --> 01:28:30,079
that news outlet or whatever they were talking about. It's

1685
01:28:30,079 --> 01:28:33,039
like huge crisis Orthodox Church, like, you know, they don't

1686
01:28:33,039 --> 01:28:36,680
have enough priests, so maybe that might be one model

1687
01:28:36,720 --> 01:28:42,079
they moved to. Ye who knows. Question inquirer, why do

1688
01:28:42,279 --> 01:28:46,359
Orthodox give incense to saints and not just God? And

1689
01:28:46,399 --> 01:28:50,119
why is a sceticism like someone in the desert who

1690
01:28:50,279 --> 01:28:53,079
dies in a couple of years considered a positive.

1691
01:28:54,119 --> 01:28:57,359
Speaker 2: What the earth one? I would say again, read Revelation

1692
01:28:57,479 --> 01:29:00,600
five or nine, and you'll see the significance of the incense.

1693
01:29:01,399 --> 01:29:05,319
And even though the incense is in front of an

1694
01:29:05,479 --> 01:29:08,439
icon of the saint, the significance is that the saint

1695
01:29:08,560 --> 01:29:10,159
is praying and the prayers are going up to God,

1696
01:29:10,239 --> 01:29:13,079
because that's what's in the Book of Revelation, particularly chapters

1697
01:29:13,119 --> 01:29:16,239
five or nine. But I don't know what you're talking about.

1698
01:29:16,239 --> 01:29:19,119
A person who is going to intentionally die in two years.

1699
01:29:19,119 --> 01:29:25,000
Most people are not called to a aramatic, radical ascetic existence.

1700
01:29:25,079 --> 01:29:27,680
Some people are called to that. And you know, you

1701
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:30,560
have this tradition of the fools for God. So but

1702
01:29:30,600 --> 01:29:33,399
I mean that's again, you know, in the Orthodox world,

1703
01:29:33,439 --> 01:29:36,840
you're not going into this to do I'm going into

1704
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:39,880
this because I'm going to be the desert ascetic. You're

1705
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:42,399
going into it with a spiritual father who's going to

1706
01:29:42,439 --> 01:29:46,279
counsel you. And how many people end up being hermits?

1707
01:29:46,319 --> 01:29:50,439
Not many? Okay, so not everyone is called to that

1708
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:53,359
or nor is that the appropriate thing for them. So

1709
01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:55,560
God will put you in the situation that you need

1710
01:29:55,600 --> 01:29:58,479
to be in at the right time if you obey God,

1711
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:02,199
so you don't have to worry about Oh, you know,

1712
01:30:02,279 --> 01:30:04,640
I'm joining a cult where they're gonna like brainwash me

1713
01:30:04,680 --> 01:30:06,760
and I'll be dying in a desert in two years.

1714
01:30:07,840 --> 01:30:10,840
Speaker 1: Yeah that, yeah, you're thinking of You're thinking of the

1715
01:30:10,920 --> 01:30:15,000
Roman Catholic saints like Saint Catherine of Siana who basically

1716
01:30:15,039 --> 01:30:18,359
starved herself to death, you know that kind of thing.

1717
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:20,279
I was talking about this with a body of mine

1718
01:30:20,279 --> 01:30:22,840
and he was saying, the modern like the ones that

1719
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:27,039
were canonized post Vatican two, are always have the craziest backstories.

1720
01:30:27,399 --> 01:30:30,079
You're saying, they're like ripoffs of Orthodox saints, but like

1721
01:30:30,159 --> 01:30:33,960
full of prelst. It's like that the early life or

1722
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:37,640
whatever their life story is kind of like was, you know,

1723
01:30:37,840 --> 01:30:40,920
received a vision, was given a foreskin ring or something,

1724
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:44,000
and then starving stars to death was considered a heretic

1725
01:30:44,079 --> 01:30:46,319
and then guess what they were they're canonized, you know,

1726
01:30:46,359 --> 01:30:49,640
woo because somebody was like a fan of them because

1727
01:30:49,680 --> 01:30:52,880
they were Yeah, it's crazy that my.

1728
01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:56,039
Speaker 2: Video on histrionic women's Saints is it's exactly what you're

1729
01:30:56,039 --> 01:30:59,600
talking about. But I think it's very different the Orthodox shirts.

1730
01:30:59,600 --> 01:31:02,359
You don't have this sort of like the asceticism is

1731
01:31:02,359 --> 01:31:05,079
not an end in itself. Right in Roman Catholic world

1732
01:31:05,319 --> 01:31:08,760
penance you're doing these things for penance, so you're trying

1733
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:11,840
to like pay off the temp world debt for the

1734
01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:16,239
sins through these excruciating things. And you know, they had

1735
01:31:16,279 --> 01:31:20,159
the mistranslation from Jerome that you mortify the body, which

1736
01:31:21,399 --> 01:31:24,520
actually was talking about repentance changing the mind. It's not

1737
01:31:24,560 --> 01:31:28,039
saying you like literally punish yourself as if that sort

1738
01:31:28,079 --> 01:31:30,399
of pays off God. So I think certain things contributed

1739
01:31:30,439 --> 01:31:34,000
to this extreme in the Romancalolic world. A lot of

1740
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:36,239
that's taking place in the Middle Ages. That's too deep

1741
01:31:36,279 --> 01:31:39,079
to go into right now, But they really just lost

1742
01:31:39,119 --> 01:31:41,560
the goodness of the body. In the Roman Catholic world,

1743
01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:45,680
the wholeness of man, focusing on the intellect, and because

1744
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:47,279
they don't have the notion of the news. So in

1745
01:31:47,399 --> 01:31:51,920
Orthodoxy there's body, mind, spirit or heart and remo. Catholic

1746
01:31:52,000 --> 01:31:54,960
Church doesn't have that. It just has soul body, and

1747
01:31:55,399 --> 01:31:58,439
the soul is really the intellect.

1748
01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:04,479
Speaker 1: How familiar is j with Metropolitan Saba? What are his thoughts?

1749
01:32:04,479 --> 01:32:06,119
I admire what I know, but I don't know much.

1750
01:32:06,560 --> 01:32:08,520
Speaker 2: I don't know. People ask me all the time, what

1751
01:32:08,560 --> 01:32:10,399
do you think about Bishop so and so? I don't know.

1752
01:32:10,560 --> 01:32:14,520
Speaker 1: Sorry, Yeah, maybe he'll come to the conference where we

1753
01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:19,079
can hang out and get to know. Uh. You speak

1754
01:32:19,119 --> 01:32:20,960
often of the Office of the Keys and how the

1755
01:32:21,000 --> 01:32:23,920
Catholics interpret them as a jurisdiction, preaching, et cetera. What's

1756
01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:24,880
the Catholic source for this?

1757
01:32:25,199 --> 01:32:27,680
Speaker 2: I guess I mean that's pretty I mean, off the

1758
01:32:27,680 --> 01:32:29,359
top of my head, I'm not sure, but I don't

1759
01:32:29,399 --> 01:32:32,359
think that's too controversial. If you look up just probably

1760
01:32:32,399 --> 01:32:36,640
the Catholic Encyclopedia or any any standard Roman Catholic theological

1761
01:32:36,640 --> 01:32:40,159
theology manual will tell you that the office of the

1762
01:32:40,199 --> 01:32:42,520
Keys is the those three things.

1763
01:32:44,039 --> 01:32:46,840
Speaker 1: It is. It is in the Catholic Encyclopedia. I had

1764
01:32:46,840 --> 01:32:48,920
the same question after your debate, and I looked it up.

1765
01:32:48,960 --> 01:32:52,359
Speaker 2: So, I mean, it's something I learned like a long

1766
01:32:52,399 --> 01:32:53,960
time ago, when I was a realman. Catholic, and I

1767
01:32:53,960 --> 01:32:56,079
don't remember the exact sort, but it's pretty easy to

1768
01:32:56,079 --> 01:32:59,000
find topics like that. Yeah, what's up.

1769
01:32:58,920 --> 01:33:01,520
Speaker 1: Mario, Thanks for thanks, Thanks for the two bucks man,

1770
01:33:01,680 --> 01:33:06,760
appreciate you. Uh, Alex, he's got a good Orthodox channel there.

1771
01:33:06,960 --> 01:33:10,880
He's an Orthodox lawyer and he does apologetics. Now, Uh,

1772
01:33:11,079 --> 01:33:13,479
Jay is the star of rim Fan in Act seven?

1773
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:16,800
The modern Star of David. Seems like Saint Stephen accuses

1774
01:33:16,840 --> 01:33:21,079
the Sanhedrin of literally practicing occultism. How is this connected,

1775
01:33:21,119 --> 01:33:23,720
if at all, the demonic influence in geopolitics. Thanks?

1776
01:33:24,119 --> 01:33:26,239
Speaker 2: This is a good question. I don't exactly know the

1777
01:33:26,239 --> 01:33:32,039
answer to. I've heard this. Uh yeah, I think it's

1778
01:33:32,079 --> 01:33:36,199
specifically in the septuagen I think the Maserati text doesn't

1779
01:33:36,239 --> 01:33:40,880
say star rem Fan. I don't know if we exactly

1780
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:43,680
know what the star room Fan is. Uh. It could

1781
01:33:43,720 --> 01:33:47,439
be the six pointed hexagonal, you know star, And there

1782
01:33:47,479 --> 01:33:51,560
could be this sort of you know, tumeltic tradition that

1783
01:33:51,680 --> 01:33:57,039
resurfaces at the time of whenever, you know, the rabbi

1784
01:33:57,079 --> 01:33:59,760
has decided to use that symbol. I honestly, I mean

1785
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:04,600
familiar with these theories, I just honestly don't know. I

1786
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:07,520
wouldn't be surprised if it has the same significance.

1787
01:34:08,239 --> 01:34:12,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, for the people in chat to laugh, but carey

1788
01:34:12,720 --> 01:34:14,560
thirty eight forty nine, So if you want to laugh,

1789
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:15,039
go look.

1790
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:17,359
Speaker 2: At that for hoodie. So those are awesome.

1791
01:34:19,479 --> 01:34:22,520
Speaker 1: Did you see Tim Gordon crash out over annulments on X.

1792
01:34:22,640 --> 01:34:25,239
Speaker 2: I did not. In fact, I kind of had to

1793
01:34:26,119 --> 01:34:27,920
not pay attention to I don't want to get too

1794
01:34:27,960 --> 01:34:31,760
triggered and constantly argue with him. So, I mean we

1795
01:34:31,880 --> 01:34:34,079
chat on we chat on d MS and and like

1796
01:34:34,439 --> 01:34:36,600
on cell text more than anything on Twitter, because I

1797
01:34:36,600 --> 01:34:39,560
don't want to get I'll just argue. I'm too spurgy

1798
01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:41,600
about that. I'll just keep arguing. So I just try

1799
01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:43,000
to avoid it. But I don't know what he said.

1800
01:34:43,520 --> 01:34:46,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I try not to argue in text on like

1801
01:34:46,560 --> 01:34:49,039
ever because it's just annoying. I take too much of

1802
01:34:49,079 --> 01:34:49,520
my time.

1803
01:34:50,760 --> 01:34:54,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna have to go pretty soon. I've got

1804
01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:56,520
something I gotta get to pretty.

1805
01:34:56,279 --> 01:34:58,760
Speaker 1: Quick here, sure, no worry. How much time you got

1806
01:34:58,800 --> 01:35:01,720
like five minutes, A couple minutes, okay, all right, let

1807
01:35:01,760 --> 01:35:03,760
me get to a couple So, no, don't send any

1808
01:35:03,760 --> 01:35:05,520
more super chats. I'm gonna get to a couple that

1809
01:35:05,560 --> 01:35:06,600
are that are good questions.

1810
01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:07,039
Speaker 2: Let's see.

1811
01:35:08,119 --> 01:35:22,319
Speaker 3: Um, okay, hold on, let's see whatever.

1812
01:35:22,119 --> 01:35:25,319
Speaker 1: Prog bull can a liberal be Christian? That's an easy question.

1813
01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:30,039
Speaker 2: No, I mean I assume you mean like pro abortion

1814
01:35:30,199 --> 01:35:34,119
and like obviously those things are fundamentally incompatible with basic

1815
01:35:34,199 --> 01:35:35,079
Christian principles.

1816
01:35:35,840 --> 01:35:41,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm almost done with Saint Maximus. Two hundred chapters

1817
01:35:41,119 --> 01:35:43,520
on theology, not well formed on Eastern philosophy.

1818
01:35:45,199 --> 01:35:46,680
Speaker 2: Take this phone call. Can you hold on a second?

1819
01:35:46,840 --> 01:35:50,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Let's see if there's anything in here that

1820
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:57,399
I can answer. Okay, this is this guy's This guy's

1821
01:35:57,439 --> 01:35:59,199
a Luther and he always pops up in my chat.

1822
01:35:59,479 --> 01:36:03,960
He's fun. Dude. Uh Jay, what's your workout regimen? Why

1823
01:36:04,000 --> 01:36:06,279
has been lifting weights but still fat?

1824
01:36:06,800 --> 01:36:07,039
Speaker 2: Dude?

1825
01:36:07,079 --> 01:36:11,000
Speaker 1: It's over. It's over, man. I gotta, I gotta, I

1826
01:36:11,039 --> 01:36:13,359
gotta enter into my cut season. You know, I got

1827
01:36:13,359 --> 01:36:16,039
the I got the gains. I do have to trim

1828
01:36:16,079 --> 01:36:18,279
down a little bit though. I started intermittent fasting. I

1829
01:36:18,319 --> 01:36:21,119
was doing keto for a while, and you know, I

1830
01:36:21,119 --> 01:36:24,279
did jiu jitsu and stuff for cardio. But uh, I'm

1831
01:36:24,279 --> 01:36:28,359
hoping I'm hoping that intermittent fasting plus keto combo. It's

1832
01:36:28,399 --> 01:36:32,880
gonna really shred down, shred down the uh shred down

1833
01:36:32,880 --> 01:36:35,239
the weight there. But I want to keep I don't

1834
01:36:35,239 --> 01:36:36,840
want to like, I don't want to diet and like

1835
01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:39,920
lose my gains though you know I have like noodle

1836
01:36:39,920 --> 01:36:45,319
alarms or something that'd be anoint Uh. You said arguments

1837
01:36:45,319 --> 01:36:48,960
from the Biblical canon against Protestants aren't convincing to you. Why, Jay,

1838
01:36:49,000 --> 01:36:50,760
do you think Cleaves reasoning is fair? Well, we kind

1839
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:52,800
of talked about it earlier where I was talking about

1840
01:36:52,840 --> 01:36:55,920
the Now people get upset when I talk about this

1841
01:36:55,960 --> 01:36:59,399
because they're like, oh, no, the canon conundrum converted me.

1842
01:36:59,520 --> 01:37:02,039
So this makes retarded or something. You know, I don't

1843
01:37:02,039 --> 01:37:03,680
think that's the case. If you think it's a good argument,

1844
01:37:03,720 --> 01:37:04,159
go ahead.

1845
01:37:03,960 --> 01:37:04,399
Speaker 2: And use it.

1846
01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:08,359
Speaker 1: I'm just saying there are holes in the argument that

1847
01:37:08,399 --> 01:37:11,079
you could poke, and I have poked holes in the

1848
01:37:11,199 --> 01:37:14,800
argument when I did debates with Granted he's not the

1849
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:17,840
best debater, but he's a nice enough guy. What was

1850
01:37:17,880 --> 01:37:21,960
his name, Cameron Riiker, that Catholic guy. If you want

1851
01:37:21,960 --> 01:37:23,479
to go look at some of the arguments I put

1852
01:37:23,520 --> 01:37:26,720
forth on that, it was there. But I mean I

1853
01:37:26,760 --> 01:37:28,880
always held to a two tier view so some people

1854
01:37:28,920 --> 01:37:32,119
get confused and they think the argument is for a

1855
01:37:32,199 --> 01:37:35,199
strict sixty six canon. That wasn't really the argument. The

1856
01:37:35,279 --> 01:37:38,600
argument is for a two tier view and that the

1857
01:37:38,720 --> 01:37:43,000
Roman Catholic modern view is incorrect because they hold them

1858
01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:46,479
all to the same level. They don't have any They

1859
01:37:46,520 --> 01:37:50,079
call them Dutero canonical, but it's because the Deutero canon

1860
01:37:50,199 --> 01:37:53,800
second in acceptance, not because they hold any kind of distinction.

1861
01:37:53,880 --> 01:37:57,800
There a good question. Let's see what else is there?

1862
01:37:58,800 --> 01:38:02,079
What rolls be Christians? No? Uh?

1863
01:38:04,079 --> 01:38:04,239
Speaker 2: Oh?

1864
01:38:04,319 --> 01:38:06,399
Speaker 1: Is that? The is that? The is that the stoning

1865
01:38:06,439 --> 01:38:10,399
the monkey's hidith? Where there is like I saw a

1866
01:38:10,439 --> 01:38:13,640
she monkey committing adultery, so I joined in and stoning

1867
01:38:15,079 --> 01:38:20,359
stoning the she monkey. Yeah, that's funny. I sent that

1868
01:38:20,399 --> 01:38:24,920
to a buddy of mine when he first became a Christian.

1869
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:32,079
Let's see any other any other ones that I could

1870
01:38:32,159 --> 01:38:37,079
possibly answer? Probably not well, if you guys, I guess

1871
01:38:37,119 --> 01:38:38,920
while we're waiting on Jada comeback, because the rest of

1872
01:38:38,960 --> 01:38:42,600
these questions are for j specifically, If you guys want to, uh,

1873
01:38:43,920 --> 01:38:48,720
please re ask my question when Jada's back. What's your oh?

1874
01:38:48,760 --> 01:39:00,520
Because he left mid Yeah? Sure, no worries, dude, okay, welcome, welcome,

1875
01:39:01,319 --> 01:39:03,199
all right. Uh do you want to do you want

1876
01:39:03,199 --> 01:39:05,279
to do like two more questions and wrap up here?

1877
01:39:07,039 --> 01:39:09,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we can do that. So big day tomorrow, guys.

1878
01:39:09,479 --> 01:39:13,479
No pray for what'll be going on with Gerald from Crowder,

1879
01:39:13,760 --> 01:39:16,800
So he's interested in orthodoxy. We'll be talking about all

1880
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:20,159
that tomorrow. So I'm just trying to get all that situated.

1881
01:39:21,000 --> 01:39:23,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, that'll be cool man. Yeah we can. Well, if

1882
01:39:23,399 --> 01:39:24,920
you want to just finish answering this one, we can

1883
01:39:24,920 --> 01:39:29,520
wrap up after that, all right. He says this was

1884
01:39:29,560 --> 01:39:32,800
the Saint Maximus two hundred chapters on theology. Doesn't understand

1885
01:39:32,800 --> 01:39:34,079
the term gnosissism in.

1886
01:39:34,039 --> 01:39:39,880
Speaker 2: There, Well, yeah, I mean the a gnostic is just

1887
01:39:39,920 --> 01:39:42,640
one who has knowledge, right, So he's not using it

1888
01:39:42,640 --> 01:39:44,800
in the sense of the heresy of the early Church.

1889
01:39:45,159 --> 01:39:48,239
He's just talking about the person who has true knowledge

1890
01:39:48,319 --> 01:39:49,680
or the saint. That's all he means.

1891
01:39:51,319 --> 01:39:54,119
Speaker 1: Absolutely all right. Cool. Well, hey man, thank you so

1892
01:39:54,199 --> 01:39:56,560
much for coming on the show. This has been awesome.

1893
01:39:56,720 --> 01:39:58,720
You know, I'd love to do something again in the future.

1894
01:39:58,880 --> 01:40:01,840
These are these are super helpful not only for me,

1895
01:40:01,920 --> 01:40:03,840
but also for the inquirers that watch the stream and

1896
01:40:03,840 --> 01:40:06,840
stuff like that is anything, Well, you just plugged the

1897
01:40:06,840 --> 01:40:08,279
one thing coming up, but what else would you like

1898
01:40:08,319 --> 01:40:09,159
to plug before we.

1899
01:40:09,319 --> 01:40:12,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're doing that tomorrow. I don't know when

1900
01:40:12,079 --> 01:40:13,920
they're gonna air it. I don't know if it airs

1901
01:40:13,960 --> 01:40:16,000
the same day it records or if they have a

1902
01:40:16,039 --> 01:40:20,079
delay so that I don't know. But yeah, we'll have

1903
01:40:20,119 --> 01:40:23,039
the conference as you guys know, November twenty twenty. First,

1904
01:40:23,720 --> 01:40:26,199
you can find those links on my wall or my website.

1905
01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:29,279
You can get my books in the shop at Jasonilsons

1906
01:40:29,279 --> 01:40:35,359
dot com. We'll be having events in the future. I'm

1907
01:40:35,399 --> 01:40:37,600
sure you'll be with us. So glad you're on board,

1908
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:40,760
and glad to look forward to meeting you in a

1909
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:41,479
few weeks. Man.

1910
01:40:42,079 --> 01:40:44,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, that'll be awesome. Thanks so much for swinging by,

1911
01:40:44,399 --> 01:40:46,119
and thank you all so much for watching. You'll have

1912
01:40:46,119 --> 01:40:47,479
a good night, all right later