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<v Speaker 1>From the front lines of the mom Wars. Here's Bethany

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<v Speaker 1>Mandel and Kara Kennedy.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello and welcome to another episode of your favorite podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>My name is Bethany Mandel, and I had to go

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<v Speaker 2>through the editorial pages of The Free Press to find

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<v Speaker 2>a replacement for my friend Kara Kennedy, who is still

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<v Speaker 2>on maternity leave and just left me to podcast all alone.

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<v Speaker 2>And I picked up one of my favorite columnists ever anywhere,

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<v Speaker 2>and then I just suckered her into coming on, and

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<v Speaker 2>for some silly reason she said, yeah, so here we are.

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<v Speaker 2>I am joined by kat Rosenfield. She is a calumnist

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<v Speaker 2>for The Free Press and the author of several novels,

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<v Speaker 2>which I was admitting. I never have someone on the

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<v Speaker 2>podcast that I haven't read their book, but I have

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<v Speaker 2>not you read your book, but my husband has read

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<v Speaker 2>all of your books, and so I feel like there's

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<v Speaker 2>like an osmosis thing that happened.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, I don't know, it's no, that's how that works.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, no. But he's a big fan. He I

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<v Speaker 2>I the first one he bought. I was like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>that was nice of you, and he was like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's actually good. And I was like, oh, that's so nice.

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<v Speaker 2>And then he just kept reading your books and I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, oh, it must actually be if you are

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<v Speaker 2>going back again and again to the same Well.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this is how I get people, you know. I

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<v Speaker 1>write one thing they like and then they get hooked

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, and then I get your whole family

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<v Speaker 1>the same way.

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<v Speaker 2>There you go. So how did you start writing like,

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<v Speaker 2>what like novels?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, oh, I kind of fell backwards into it.

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<v Speaker 1>It was two thousand and eight. The economy had imploded.

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<v Speaker 1>I had been trying to move into being a copywriter

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<v Speaker 1>and instead I ended up unemployed. And my husband knew

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<v Speaker 1>that I had had a novel and a drawer, and

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<v Speaker 1>he was like, why don't you finish that since you're

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<v Speaker 1>not going to really have an opportunity to just work

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<v Speaker 1>on something like that and be unemployed long term, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like this again, And so I did and that ended

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<v Speaker 1>up being my first book.

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<v Speaker 2>Amazing, amazing. And so how you've written three now or four?

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<v Speaker 2>Shut up? Seriously? And I don't know if we own

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<v Speaker 2>all of them, because I think we own three or four.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I would guess that, don't. You don't own the

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<v Speaker 1>early work because I was a young adult fiction writer.

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<v Speaker 1>That was where I got my start, which meant that

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<v Speaker 1>I was a fly on the wall when everybody in

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<v Speaker 1>that community started to lose their minds, and I ended

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<v Speaker 1>up starting to write about that a little bit. And

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<v Speaker 1>I don't write young adult fiction anymore for that reason,

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<v Speaker 1>but I do have an interesting career as a culture

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<v Speaker 1>writer also for that reason.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so that is actually why. That was the intended

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<v Speaker 2>purpose of why I had you on, because I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about your more recent culture writings. So but

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<v Speaker 2>now I'm remembering all of this, so rewind back to

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<v Speaker 2>being a young adult writer and having this all on float,

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<v Speaker 2>Like what what happened? Because I've written so much about

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<v Speaker 2>how the literature world for kids is just like insane.

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<v Speaker 2>Someone posted today, actually my actually she was my nears

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<v Speaker 2>just she was my book assistant, she was my research assistant,

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<v Speaker 2>and she posted that. In Massachusetts, there's a website for

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<v Speaker 2>the health classes and for fourth graders. There's a graphic

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<v Speaker 2>photo of a man enjoying what the internet has to

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<v Speaker 2>offer in his bed. Oh this and it's like full,

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<v Speaker 2>it's very graphic, and it's for fourth graders.

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<v Speaker 1>I assume you mean he's watching like cooking videos.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, Yeah, I try to keep this show like

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<v Speaker 2>okay enough to keep in the background when kids are around.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, I don't I mean, maybe it's just

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<v Speaker 2>my kids. My kids have heard everything.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, cooking videos, yeah, enjoying them in bed as one does.

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<v Speaker 1>What happened to this? So okay? The sort of TLDR is.

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<v Speaker 1>Around twenty fourteen, people in One's publishing and young adult

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<v Speaker 1>fiction got very obsessed with the kind of proto ideology

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<v Speaker 1>of what would eventually become known as woke. And it

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<v Speaker 1>was I think initially well intentioned. You know, they wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to see a greater diversity of stories being told by

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<v Speaker 1>a greater diversity of people. Ultimately, though, as you know

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<v Speaker 1>so often happens with well intentioned social justice oriented movements,

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<v Speaker 1>this became primarily a tool for extremely grasping, opportunistic people

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<v Speaker 1>to try to eliminate the competition in order to promote

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<v Speaker 1>themselves professionally. And this sort of crazy orthodoxy took over

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<v Speaker 1>in the young adult fiction space around twenty sixteen and

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<v Speaker 1>just became very all consuming. It was very conformist. I

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<v Speaker 1>think there are a few different reasons for this, but

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<v Speaker 1>one of the things that really spurned the kind of changed.

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<v Speaker 1>The change in the content of the books was partly

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<v Speaker 1>this desire to see very certain kind of political or

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<v Speaker 1>politically correct, progressively pious ideas being promoted. The idea was that,

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<v Speaker 1>like we were educators, we needed to be instructing kids

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<v Speaker 1>properly morally, we needed to like get everyone on the

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<v Speaker 1>right side of history. This was partly about politics, but

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<v Speaker 1>it was also, in my opinion at least partly about

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that a lot of the people working and

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<v Speaker 1>especially writing in children's publishing were sort of maladjusted adults

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<v Speaker 1>who wanted to write books for the unhappy kid they

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<v Speaker 1>had been. They had this idea that, like, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>when I was like a gay thirteen year old or

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<v Speaker 1>you know, or confused or awkward, if I had just

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<v Speaker 1>had a book, you know, that showed me what I

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<v Speaker 1>you know, what I want, what I want as an adult,

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<v Speaker 1>that I would have been less unhappy. I think that

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<v Speaker 1>they projected a lot of their kind of like adult

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<v Speaker 1>anxieties and issues onto children's literature, and the books got

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<v Speaker 1>a little weird as a result.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, and that's not conjecture. I have read so

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<v Speaker 2>many interviews with child authors and young adult authors where

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<v Speaker 2>they say that explicitly that this is written for twelve

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<v Speaker 2>year old me, ten year old me, eight year old me.

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<v Speaker 2>And I see a lot of this kind of theme

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<v Speaker 2>in I mean across the spectrum. And I noticed it

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<v Speaker 2>when I was first in college. It was like a

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<v Speaker 2>physician healed myself. And so everyone in a nutrition class

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<v Speaker 2>had an eating disorder. Everyone in a psych class had

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<v Speaker 2>their own mental struggles that they were dealing with and

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<v Speaker 2>they were trying to fix themselves. Everyone in a communications

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<v Speaker 2>class was autistic and could not communicate to save their lives,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's why they were a communications major. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I definitely have observed this in the children's literature space

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<v Speaker 2>that it decentered the story and you know, the beauty

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<v Speaker 2>of literature and instead became like, this is my agenda,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm very open about it. And not only is

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<v Speaker 2>that annoying from you know, if you don't share that agenda,

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<v Speaker 2>but it also just makes for bad literature.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, to be a successful young

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<v Speaker 1>adult fiction writer, you do have to have certain proximity,

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<v Speaker 1>like emotionally and intellectually to the experience of being a teenager.

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<v Speaker 1>But it is possible for that proximity to be healthy

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<v Speaker 1>and that it is possible for that proximity to be unhealthy.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that you know a certain you don't

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<v Speaker 1>really get to decide who gravitates towards literature for the

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<v Speaker 1>unhealthy reason, but then their books end up getting produced,

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<v Speaker 1>and that, yeah, is what it is.

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<v Speaker 2>I have read, unfortunately, so much of this literature. It

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<v Speaker 2>was funny. Actually, we were talking before we started about

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<v Speaker 2>my cleaning lady. She's like cleaning out my counters right

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<v Speaker 2>now and everything because it's very per past over. And

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<v Speaker 2>she found a stack of children's books that I've used

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<v Speaker 2>for work that I would never let my children read,

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<v Speaker 2>and so it's funny. She found like Pride Puppy George,

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<v Speaker 2>which was a young adult story about an individual who

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<v Speaker 2>went from Melissa to George, or maybe it was George

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<v Speaker 2>to Melissa, I don't remember which one. One of them.

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<v Speaker 2>They had to change the name of the book because

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<v Speaker 2>they dead named, and so the author apologized for dead

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<v Speaker 2>naming her own character and making it the title of

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<v Speaker 2>her book. Yeah, it's really painful, but I've read a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of these books and I'm always struck by it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't seem like they've met a kid this age. Because

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<v Speaker 2>George or Melissa whatever it was I can't remember was

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<v Speaker 2>written for a kid my older two children's ages. I

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<v Speaker 2>have my kids run the gamut from twelve down to three,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I was reading George like, my kids would

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<v Speaker 2>never get into this, Like has she ever read a

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<v Speaker 2>children's book for this age? Rage Let alone met a

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<v Speaker 2>twelve year old. I can't see my kids getting sucked

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<v Speaker 2>in the same way they're sucked into JK. Rowling or

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<v Speaker 2>Rick ryed In or like any of those kinds of books,

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<v Speaker 2>because it's there's just it's flat, like it feels very

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<v Speaker 2>prescriptive and preachy and annoying, and I wanted to shoot

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<v Speaker 2>myself when I was reading it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is interesting how much those books tend to

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<v Speaker 1>just not resonate with the children for whom they're supposedly intended.

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<v Speaker 1>This was something that I thought was very interesting during

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<v Speaker 1>the controversy surrounding gender queer Do you remember that it

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<v Speaker 1>was like a big deal just a few years back,

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<v Speaker 1>And that book is of course, I mean, objectively, it's

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<v Speaker 1>pretty graphic, it's pretty inappropriate. It depicts cartoon sex acts

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<v Speaker 1>involving a dildo. I'm sorry, we're trying to keep this

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<v Speaker 1>family friendly and never it depicts really graphic cooking videos.

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<v Speaker 1>It is something that was brought into libraries by adults,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, saying, well, you know, we think it's important

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<v Speaker 1>for kids to have access to this book. And that

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<v Speaker 1>was really about the political anxieties of the adults who

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<v Speaker 1>were in charge of deciding what was in the library.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, a big thing about so many of these

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<v Speaker 1>books that were the subject of so much controversy, including

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<v Speaker 1>gender Queer, is that not a single child had ever

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<v Speaker 1>checked them out. They were just there, you know, and

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<v Speaker 1>they were not interesting to their intended audience, and so

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<v Speaker 1>they just became instead these kind of cultural flashpoints to

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<v Speaker 1>do battle over, but nobody was actually reading them.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I just I just wrote a piece for the

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<v Speaker 2>Washington Examiner this week about like an alternative library association,

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<v Speaker 2>like who who could not get more exciting than that?

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<v Speaker 2>But they in their mission statement they say, very plainly,

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<v Speaker 2>like the America. I don't they don't call out the

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<v Speaker 2>American Library Association, but effectively, this is what they're doing.

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<v Speaker 2>They're saying, we believe unlike the other folks. They don't

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<v Speaker 2>say that, but we believe that children childhood is a

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<v Speaker 2>separate stage of maturity that needs to be treated as

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<v Speaker 2>separate because one of the things that really disturbs me about,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the progressive takeover of libraries and the window

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<v Speaker 2>that it gives us into this ideology is that like,

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<v Speaker 2>they don't think that childhood is a thing. They don't

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<v Speaker 2>think it exists. And so that line from like there

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<v Speaker 2>to minor attracted persons is a straight through line, like

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<v Speaker 2>there's just there's no do not pass, go, do not

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<v Speaker 2>collect two hundred dollars. And I find it one of

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<v Speaker 2>the most disturbing aspects of like this woke progressive ideology,

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<v Speaker 2>that the total erasure of childhood as a distinct unit

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<v Speaker 2>of maturity in life.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I had a thought about that angle on things,

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<v Speaker 1>so I can't really speak to it. But when I

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<v Speaker 1>was writing about the sort of soft censorship that takes

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<v Speaker 1>place in libraries through this process called weading, which is

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<v Speaker 1>very like unilateral, you have a librarian who's just deciding

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<v Speaker 1>what to remove from their collections or what to like

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<v Speaker 1>remove from the display cases. And it was such an

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<v Speaker 1>interesting thing because it had become this flashpoint. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>we're always talking about book banning, like we're against banned books,

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<v Speaker 1>we're for free speech, but so often the books that

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<v Speaker 1>are being described as banned, I've never you know, there's

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<v Speaker 1>never been any problem accessing them. They're just books that

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<v Speaker 1>conservatives conservatives object to, whereas the books that you have

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<v Speaker 1>trouble accessing are the ones that librarians object to. Librarians

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<v Speaker 1>do tend to be liberal, and so there's this question

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<v Speaker 1>of like what actually does it mean to ban a book,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in the digital age where everything is infinitely replicable,

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<v Speaker 1>And it's really about two things. One is, you know

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<v Speaker 1>what is front and center at your library, which, of

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<v Speaker 1>course you know, there's also this question like the battle

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<v Speaker 1>for the soul of the library? Right you go in

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<v Speaker 1>and if all you see is, you know, everything like

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<v Speaker 1>Rainbow Pride for children in the kids section, you understand

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<v Speaker 1>if you're a more conservative parent, more conservative person, that like,

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<v Speaker 1>this space is not for you, which is an interesting

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<v Speaker 1>development I don't think is great. But the other question

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<v Speaker 1>is like, you know, what does it mean to censor?

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<v Speaker 1>Who really has the power to censor? And my argument

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<v Speaker 1>was that the people who are able to quietly remove

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<v Speaker 1>books from shelves, you know, from library collections, to do

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<v Speaker 1>so on an ideological basis, who aren't really accountable to

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<v Speaker 1>anybody except for themselves, and who also increasingly are able

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<v Speaker 1>to have a chilling effect on books like Back at

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<v Speaker 1>the Source, to basically persuade authors to write differently or

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<v Speaker 1>not write at all because they don't think that it's

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<v Speaker 1>serving the proper political purpose. That's really where the power

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<v Speaker 1>to censor lies in our contemporary era.

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<v Speaker 2>I had that experience when we so Carol Markoitz and

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<v Speaker 2>I wrote a book, Stolen Youth. It came out exactly

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<v Speaker 2>three years ago, and so we were shopping at like

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<v Speaker 2>four and a half years ago, like the book Proposal,

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<v Speaker 2>And this was at that moment in time, like that

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<v Speaker 2>snapshot where Abigail Schreyer's book was taken out of target,

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<v Speaker 2>Ryan Anderson's book was taken off of Amazon, and then

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<v Speaker 2>like Abigail wasn't able to advertise on Amazon as well,

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<v Speaker 2>And we got knows from publishers that were completely understandable,

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<v Speaker 2>like we don't think we will actually be able to

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<v Speaker 2>have a storefront to sell your book, like your book

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<v Speaker 2>is way more offensive than Abigail Shryer's book, and that

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's the only way it will be good

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<v Speaker 2>is if it's really offensive. It has to be a

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<v Speaker 2>barn Burner and Abigail Schreyer's book was not a barn Burner.

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<v Speaker 2>Neither was Ryan Anderson's. And so eventually the Daily Wire

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<v Speaker 2>acquired it and we wrote it for the Daily Wire.

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<v Speaker 2>And in my conversations with editors, writers, agents, everyone across

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<v Speaker 2>the board, they said exactly what you just said, that

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<v Speaker 2>chilling effect of like you have to fit the narrative,

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<v Speaker 2>you have to fit the quota. One of the editors

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<v Speaker 2>I spoke with at a major children's publishing how said,

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<v Speaker 2>I cannot I have a literal quota system. I cannot

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<v Speaker 2>publish a white straight man. I don't. I'm not allowed.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think about like C. S. Lewis and all

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<v Speaker 2>these like that, quality literature just would not exist. And

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<v Speaker 2>so I wonder how many people just don't what we're

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<v Speaker 2>missing in the literature world.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, at this point, the question of where

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<v Speaker 1>are the straight, white male writers is an interesting one,

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<v Speaker 1>and I hope it's you know, somebody addresses it. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it's being addressed somewhat. Jacob Savage wrote that good piece

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<v Speaker 1>for Compact that kind of looked at some of the numbers,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the statistics who's being published. That's sort of

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<v Speaker 1>outside the children's space. But it is interesting to think

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<v Speaker 1>about how the landscape of who is being published now

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<v Speaker 1>has changed, because there was back in twenty fourteen, which

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's like that was more than ten years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>There was this sense of like, oh, well, white men

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<v Speaker 1>had their day. You know, they they've dominated literature. It's

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<v Speaker 1>somebody else's turn. And you know, I suppose if you

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<v Speaker 1>go back to certain length of time you look at

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<v Speaker 1>the American literatyah, sorry, literary landscape, you say, okay, who

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<v Speaker 1>was being published at that time? Yeah, you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>find a lot of straight white men. But that was

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<v Speaker 1>like the sixties or the seventies, And at this point,

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<v Speaker 1>the sins of the boomer literati are being visited on

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<v Speaker 1>a generation of men who have never known, like, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a day in the sun. They've never experienced this sort

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<v Speaker 1>of boogeyman of white male privilege. And I think that

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<v Speaker 1>we're doing a little bit too much of punishing gen

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<v Speaker 1>Z for the at this point probably like imagined sins

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<v Speaker 1>of what men have came before them.

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<v Speaker 2>We also don't even have to imagine that, like people

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<v Speaker 2>are not writing these children's books anymore, because you're not

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<v Speaker 2>writing young adult fiction anymore, would you I'll be writing

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<v Speaker 2>this stuff if this was not the landscape, probably not.

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<v Speaker 1>I got into Ya at a moment that I referred

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<v Speaker 1>to as peak YA. It was right after Twilight broke

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<v Speaker 1>out big, and there was just so much money and

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<v Speaker 1>so much room in young adult fiction to do a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of different stuff. And I was writing very literary

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<v Speaker 1>fiction for young adults. So it was like basically, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>in terms of like the prose quality and the themes,

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<v Speaker 1>it was relatively dark, it was relatively adult. I just

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<v Speaker 1>had teenage characters basically, and you know, it was great

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<v Speaker 1>at that moment to be able to do that, to

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<v Speaker 1>have the room to do that. But the landscape started

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<v Speaker 1>contracting at that point in a way that I I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know, I think that like because of the way

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<v Speaker 1>things were moving, and also because of the way my

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<v Speaker 1>interests were shifting. You know, I was already writing like

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<v Speaker 1>basically like adult stuff fourteens, so it made more sense

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<v Speaker 1>for me to just write for adults, even if I

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<v Speaker 1>hadn't been pushed out, which of course I was.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi. I'm Ben Sas and I'm Chris Steierwalt, and this

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<v Speaker 2>is not dead yet.

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<v Speaker 1>We're all dying, but some of us have been brought

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<v Speaker 1>face to face with that reality.

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<v Speaker 2>However long each of us have to do it though.

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<v Speaker 2>We all want to live a good life, one with meaning,

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<v Speaker 2>love and joy, and our guests are here.

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<v Speaker 1>To help us do exactly that.

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<v Speaker 2>Now available for download and streaming at ricochet dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>Ricochet Yeah, join the conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>So this podcast was basically a bait and switch because

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<v Speaker 2>I asked you to come on to talk about Lindy West,

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<v Speaker 2>and then we just spent half an hour not talking

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<v Speaker 2>about Lindy West.

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<v Speaker 1>That's okay, we can still talk about Lindy West. That's literature.

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<v Speaker 2>Also, I know. So I think there's actually a through

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<v Speaker 2>line here from the conversation we just had to the

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<v Speaker 2>conversation that I intended to have, which is on Lindy West.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's the same Brooklyn Park Slope intellectuals who

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<v Speaker 2>led the censorship regime NYA, who are the ones who

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<v Speaker 2>are like I think Palliamory is great? Before we start

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<v Speaker 2>talking about Lindy West, can you just give everyone a

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<v Speaker 2>like cliff Notes explanation of who she is who hasn't

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<v Speaker 2>been down the rabbit hole that you and I have

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<v Speaker 2>been down.

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<v Speaker 1>For the last Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's funny because

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<v Speaker 1>for me, you know, like free speech liberal feminists who

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<v Speaker 1>grew up in the nineties, Lindy West and I are

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<v Speaker 1>about the same age, and so I have been familiar

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<v Speaker 1>with her all my adult life. I've read her stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>I used to really enjoy her work, I would, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>makes it a little bit sad to see what's happened

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<v Speaker 1>to her. She started out as a blogger at The Stranger,

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<v Speaker 1>the Seattle All Weekly. She then published a memoir called

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<v Speaker 1>Shrill that was made into a Hulu series. She was

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<v Speaker 1>a writer at Jezebel. I just transposed those in the timeline.

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<v Speaker 1>She was a writer at jezbel first, then she published

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<v Speaker 1>her memoir, then the Hulu series. And she has always

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<v Speaker 1>been like a fat activist. She's very fat. She's also

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<v Speaker 1>very pretty. She's very unapologetic about, you know, saying that

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<v Speaker 1>she deserves to have a good life. The end of

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<v Speaker 1>her memoir Shrill was basically kind of the bringing that

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<v Speaker 1>to fruition. She meets a very nice guy, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>conventionally attractive, who marries her, and that's like her happy ending.

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<v Speaker 1>Then she recently released this new memoir called Adult Braces,

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<v Speaker 1>which kind of complicates that narrative, and it is all

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<v Speaker 1>about this road trip she took in twenty twenty one

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<v Speaker 1>after or her husband. Well we'll, you know, we'll debate

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<v Speaker 1>did he, you know, like emotionally blackmail her into polyamory

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<v Speaker 1>or in opening up their marriage? You know, was had?

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<v Speaker 1>She always agreed to this and she was just being

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<v Speaker 1>a brat about it. Who's to say, I think we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to say. But so it's all about, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>how she she did this cross country road trip to

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<v Speaker 1>try to make peace with the fact that her husband

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<v Speaker 1>wanted an open marriage. And then when she went back home,

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<v Speaker 1>she and he and his girlfriend, who I think not

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<v Speaker 1>coincidentally is thin moved into a cabin that her family owns,

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<v Speaker 1>and they have been a three person marriage ever since.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think the most important part of that part

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<v Speaker 2>of it, the cabin, is that she sleeps in the guest.

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<v Speaker 1>Rooms for the most part.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, So, I first of all, I can't get

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<v Speaker 2>enough of the story for several reasons. One, it's pure voyeurism.

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<v Speaker 2>I just I can't get enough of how bizarre and

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<v Speaker 2>weird this is. And I own the fact that I'm

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<v Speaker 2>just being a gossipy, catty person. Number two. I think

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<v Speaker 2>that it really speaks to something that progressive activists are

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<v Speaker 2>trying to do in our society. I was first. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think I was really that familiar with her, but

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<v Speaker 2>I was first, sort of. I got on the train

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<v Speaker 2>of Lindy West because there was a Modern Love column

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<v Speaker 2>about her. It came out about a week ago on

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<v Speaker 2>the fourteenth. I want to read how the author introduces

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<v Speaker 2>her interview with Lindy West, because I think it is

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<v Speaker 2>very instructive of what they're trying to do here. And

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<v Speaker 2>So this is a staff writer. Her name is Anna Martin,

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<v Speaker 2>and she writes whenever non monogamy comes up in conversation

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<v Speaker 2>with my friends. And we are thirty somethings in Brooklyn,

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<v Speaker 2>so this is not infrequent. I always say, I always

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<v Speaker 2>say some version of the same thing. I deeply admire

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<v Speaker 2>the people who make it work, but I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>I could ever do it myself. The truth is, I

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<v Speaker 2>worry that I'm too insecure. Really, that's the lesson.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know why polyamory is the fetch that everyone

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<v Speaker 1>is trying to make happen right now. This actually may

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<v Speaker 1>be a good place to debut my conspiracy theory, which

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<v Speaker 1>is that there is some guy just who has a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of money and wants a harem and doesn't want

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<v Speaker 1>to have to feel bad about it, and he's like,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just going to throw everything I've got at making

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<v Speaker 1>harems socially acceptable even politically correct to have, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and he's astroturfing this massive campaign, like in every mainstream

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<v Speaker 1>legacy outlet, to make polyamory happen.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think it's I think it's liberal kink. It's

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<v Speaker 2>it's and it's to me because they would not be

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<v Speaker 2>okay with it. Like if we were talking about Mormons

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<v Speaker 2>and not not like the extremist Mormons, not LDS, but

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's FLDS fundamentalist LDS, they would they would

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<v Speaker 2>think that that's kooky religion. But this is, this is

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<v Speaker 2>like their weird, kinky religion that they've decided, and it's

418
00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:26.039
<v Speaker 2>weird because it's very biblical, like they're they're just stepping

419
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:29.240
<v Speaker 2>into a time machine and going back to when we

420
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:32.039
<v Speaker 2>had to have polygamy in order to repopulate the earth

421
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:34.920
<v Speaker 2>because there was one man and thirty women because all

422
00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:38.079
<v Speaker 2>the other men died in a war. I think that

423
00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:43.279
<v Speaker 2>it's part of just this overall effort to destroy the

424
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:47.119
<v Speaker 2>building blocks of civilization, the foundational aspects of it. And

425
00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:49.079
<v Speaker 2>they're doing it with gender as well, like there's no

426
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:50.680
<v Speaker 2>such thing as a man or a woman. It's all

427
00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:54.799
<v Speaker 2>you know, what you decide to be. And monogamy is another,

428
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, basic building block, and they've decided let's let's

429
00:24:57.599 --> 00:24:59.599
<v Speaker 2>try to do away with that too, and childhood as well.

430
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:03.519
<v Speaker 1>That's an interesting theory. I'm not sure I agree with you,

431
00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:05.359
<v Speaker 1>but that's really it is your podcast.

432
00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:07.279
<v Speaker 2>Yes, No, disagree with me.

433
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:10.079
<v Speaker 1>I mean I I like well, I mean I obviously

434
00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:12.920
<v Speaker 1>I like my conspiracy theory about the guy like maybe

435
00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:15.039
<v Speaker 1>it's maybe it's maybe it's several men sitting in like

436
00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:16.640
<v Speaker 1>a room smoking cigars, being like.

437
00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:18.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's not your scene. So we've got it. We've

438
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:19.759
<v Speaker 2>got to figure out who it.

439
00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:21.960
<v Speaker 1>Is, you know, it could it could be whoever killed him. No,

440
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:23.759
<v Speaker 1>I'm just kidding. I think he'd probably kill himself.

441
00:25:24.039 --> 00:25:26.160
<v Speaker 2>No, I don't know. I disagree with you. There's not

442
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:29.000
<v Speaker 2>a conspiracy theory that I have not actually brought into.

443
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Oh I love this. I want maybe later to hear

444
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:34.759
<v Speaker 1>about what your favorite one is. But just to return

445
00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:38.559
<v Speaker 1>to the topic of polyamory. What is interesting about this

446
00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:43.640
<v Speaker 1>to me is that the way that it's spun, especially

447
00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:46.960
<v Speaker 1>by West in her book, is that it is like

448
00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:52.880
<v Speaker 1>the most politically progressive, perhaps even feminist thing, to have

449
00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:56.519
<v Speaker 1>this open marriage. And that is specifically because she's a

450
00:25:56.559 --> 00:26:01.799
<v Speaker 1>straight white woman, but her husband is is a person

451
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:04.119
<v Speaker 1>of color and now who now, I guess sometime within

452
00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:07.000
<v Speaker 1>the past couple of years, decided to go by they

453
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:09.880
<v Speaker 1>them pronouns, you know, announced announced he was non binary.

454
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:12.799
<v Speaker 1>I don't do they them as a matter of like principle,

455
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:15.279
<v Speaker 1>so I'm just gonna keep calling him him. But and

456
00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:19.839
<v Speaker 1>then the girlfriend, whose name is Roya, is like, in

457
00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:23.839
<v Speaker 1>addition to being thin, I think she is Persian and

458
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:30.079
<v Speaker 1>also queer. And so the idea is that I mean,

459
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:34.000
<v Speaker 1>she says this in her book that basically the husband,

460
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.359
<v Speaker 1>when he initially talked to her about the polyamory conversation,

461
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:41.960
<v Speaker 1>persuaded her that her desire for monogamy was sort of

462
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:46.839
<v Speaker 1>somehow connected to like a desire to own him like

463
00:26:46.920 --> 00:26:49.240
<v Speaker 1>a sleeve, Like she's a white woman who wants to

464
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:52.359
<v Speaker 1>own a black man. And she was like, oh, I

465
00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:54.880
<v Speaker 1>never thought about it that way. Now I understand how

466
00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:57.079
<v Speaker 1>it's actually really problematic that I don't want you to

467
00:26:57.079 --> 00:27:00.799
<v Speaker 1>have sex with other people, and it's just I mean,

468
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:04.599
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, Like, on the one hand, I guess

469
00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:06.960
<v Speaker 1>I have a grudging respect for this guy that he's

470
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:09.519
<v Speaker 1>managed to worm his way into a place where he

471
00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:12.240
<v Speaker 1>can be the cad to end all cads and people

472
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:15.119
<v Speaker 1>are going to act like he's actually doing something amazing

473
00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:18.960
<v Speaker 1>and progressive, but at the same time he's awful.

474
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, an odd dude. I get a lot of the

475
00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:26.880
<v Speaker 2>same vibes from not the man that Lena Dunnam married,

476
00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:29.880
<v Speaker 2>but her boyfriend before that, where he kept telling her

477
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:32.839
<v Speaker 2>we can't get married until gay marriage is legal, and

478
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:34.599
<v Speaker 2>then gay marriage was legal and he was like, I

479
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:37.839
<v Speaker 2>just don't want to marry you. And I feel like

480
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:45.720
<v Speaker 2>both men really victimized these young women because of their deep,

481
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:49.839
<v Speaker 2>deep seated insecurities about their weight. She wrote a piece

482
00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:54.039
<v Speaker 2>Somebody found, an old piece that she wrote and about

483
00:27:54.039 --> 00:27:57.200
<v Speaker 2>her wedding, and she said, as a body positive activist,

484
00:27:57.799 --> 00:27:59.960
<v Speaker 2>she wanted to make a bold political statement at her way,

485
00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:05.240
<v Speaker 2>and so she says, thin girls were chosen, treasured and

486
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:08.599
<v Speaker 2>treated like a prize. Fat girls were settled for at best,

487
00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:11.119
<v Speaker 2>and we settled in turn for whomever would take us.

488
00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:14.200
<v Speaker 2>And then she talks about, you know, marrying this guy

489
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:19.920
<v Speaker 2>who did that for her, and it is so sad

490
00:28:20.119 --> 00:28:23.880
<v Speaker 2>now knowing that he's just cheating right in front of

491
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:28.519
<v Speaker 2>her face, with a thin woman in her bedroom, Like

492
00:28:31.160 --> 00:28:32.240
<v Speaker 2>does she not have friends?

493
00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:38.359
<v Speaker 1>It is so tragic. I mean, the fact that what

494
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:41.960
<v Speaker 1>you just brought up that article is actually, I think

495
00:28:42.039 --> 00:28:45.519
<v Speaker 1>such an important piece of this puzzle, which is Lindy

496
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:52.440
<v Speaker 1>West really created both a brand and an identity around

497
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:56.559
<v Speaker 1>the idea of being a fat woman who married a

498
00:28:56.599 --> 00:29:01.519
<v Speaker 1>conventionally attractive man and got her happy ending. Yeah, and

499
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:08.519
<v Speaker 1>that was so important to not just like her professional persona,

500
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:11.160
<v Speaker 1>but I think to the story that she had been

501
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:17.720
<v Speaker 1>telling herself about herself. To admit that actually he's a

502
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:21.119
<v Speaker 1>bad man and a cheater who doesn't respect her, who

503
00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:24.319
<v Speaker 1>doesn't love her the way that a man should love

504
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:28.759
<v Speaker 1>his wife, that has to be devastating in so many ways,

505
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:32.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, And for that reason, even though like this,

506
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:36.119
<v Speaker 1>within this book Lindy West reveals herself to be a

507
00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:39.519
<v Speaker 1>kind of a cruel person, I still really feel for her,

508
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:43.480
<v Speaker 1>Like I just I think that it's such a horrible

509
00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:47.759
<v Speaker 1>thing that she ended up not just experiencing an objectively

510
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:51.359
<v Speaker 1>heartbreaking situation, but painting herself into a corner where she

511
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:54.200
<v Speaker 1>couldn't even say that it's heartbreaking. She can't call it

512
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:54.720
<v Speaker 1>what it is.

513
00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:58.680
<v Speaker 2>And he did a bait and switch. He got married

514
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:01.640
<v Speaker 2>and and you know, they had their happy ending, and

515
00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:03.359
<v Speaker 2>she wrote about it and she put it out there,

516
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:05.839
<v Speaker 2>and then he pulled it out from under her and said,

517
00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:08.279
<v Speaker 2>if you want to stay with me, you have to

518
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:10.960
<v Speaker 2>be okay with me having sex with another woman in

519
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:12.039
<v Speaker 2>the room next door.

520
00:30:13.240 --> 00:30:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so supposedly this was something that he told her about,

521
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:20.079
<v Speaker 1>like he was like, I, you know, I'm not good

522
00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:23.240
<v Speaker 1>at monogamy. I think, you know, I think monogamy is

523
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:26.759
<v Speaker 1>unreasonable and bad. Then the whole conversation about monogamy maybe

524
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:30.559
<v Speaker 1>being racist, like all of this supposedly took place before

525
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:34.279
<v Speaker 1>they actually got married. Oh but but there, but he

526
00:30:34.359 --> 00:30:38.119
<v Speaker 1>also wasn't dating other people then, right, right, It's the

527
00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:40.359
<v Speaker 1>timeline is a little bit hard to parse. The other

528
00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:44.200
<v Speaker 1>thing that's hard to pars is they allegedly had like

529
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:47.240
<v Speaker 1>an agreement, but she didn't really want it. She never

530
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:49.440
<v Speaker 1>wanted it. She never wanted to be with other people.

531
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:51.519
<v Speaker 1>You know, she didn't want him to be with other people,

532
00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:55.480
<v Speaker 1>but she like said okay to this because she also

533
00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:57.480
<v Speaker 1>didn't want to lose him. I guess tell as old

534
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:00.920
<v Speaker 1>as time, right, But even within the con finds of

535
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:04.640
<v Speaker 1>this agreement they supposedly had, he still violated it. One

536
00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:06.279
<v Speaker 1>of the things that you learn in the course of

537
00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:08.599
<v Speaker 1>reading this book is he had not just the one

538
00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:11.920
<v Speaker 1>thin girlfriend. He was also having an affair with a

539
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:14.920
<v Speaker 1>second thin girlfriend who lived like next door to them.

540
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.200
<v Speaker 2>And she's of course not dating anyone, right, Like, she's

541
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:20.079
<v Speaker 2>not taking advantage of this open marriage.

542
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:23.880
<v Speaker 1>No, no, I mean, except that she supposedly sometimes has

543
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:27.160
<v Speaker 1>threesomes with her husband and the other woman. But you

544
00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:29.880
<v Speaker 1>do not get the sense reading the book that this

545
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.160
<v Speaker 1>is something that happens very often. I definitely do not

546
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:36.319
<v Speaker 1>think that she and the other woman are engaging with

547
00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:40.319
<v Speaker 1>each other sexually when the husband is not around, right,

548
00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:42.599
<v Speaker 1>So it really is kind of a harem situation.

549
00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:48.640
<v Speaker 2>So what bothers me about this whole situation? My mother

550
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.359
<v Speaker 2>was an uber, uber feminist. She would my mother dad

551
00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:54.319
<v Speaker 2>when I was sixteen, but she would be horrified at

552
00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:57.519
<v Speaker 2>how I turned out like pro life conservative, like what

553
00:31:57.559 --> 00:32:00.920
<v Speaker 2>did I do wrong? But I have the ability to

554
00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:03.440
<v Speaker 2>like code switch and think as my mother as like

555
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:07.200
<v Speaker 2>the super duper progressive woman. And but my mom would

556
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:11.000
<v Speaker 2>be of the like JK. Rowling version of feminists, where

557
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:13.799
<v Speaker 2>she would be like, I'm sorry, you want a man

558
00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:16.319
<v Speaker 2>who's convicted of rape to have access to a woman's

559
00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:19.279
<v Speaker 2>locker room. I'm sorry? What she would feel the same

560
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:24.799
<v Speaker 2>about this because feminists have twisted themselves into a circle,

561
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:28.720
<v Speaker 2>into a pretzel rather to say like this is somehow

562
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:32.119
<v Speaker 2>acceptable for a woman to be treated like this. This

563
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:38.039
<v Speaker 2>is the epitome of abuse, and it is so disrespectful

564
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:42.279
<v Speaker 2>and sets us back, as you know, half of humanity,

565
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:46.519
<v Speaker 2>back to the bad things of biblical times. We got

566
00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:49.640
<v Speaker 2>rid of the polygamy. It was bad, and now they're like,

567
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:51.759
<v Speaker 2>let's let's have let's take another look.

568
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:54.960
<v Speaker 1>I mean, what's interesting about this book to me also

569
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:59.279
<v Speaker 1>is I mean, I've actually not seen anybody saying that

570
00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:04.240
<v Speaker 1>it's good feminist, just non feminist, liberal conservative. This is

571
00:33:04.519 --> 00:33:07.920
<v Speaker 1>an astonishing achievement at a moment which we are more

572
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:11.160
<v Speaker 1>polarized than we've ever been. This is a cultural artifact

573
00:33:11.240 --> 00:33:15.039
<v Speaker 1>that everybody agrees is bad and everybody has a different

574
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:18.200
<v Speaker 1>lens on it. I've seen oh God, like ten different

575
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:21.240
<v Speaker 1>pieces written from different angles, which I think is it's

576
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:25.119
<v Speaker 1>astonishing what a rich vein to mind this one book is.

577
00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:26.960
<v Speaker 1>And you know, for that we should be grateful to

578
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:29.559
<v Speaker 1>Lindy West forgiving it to us. But it is amazing

579
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:31.640
<v Speaker 1>to me that everybody you know is reading this and

580
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:34.200
<v Speaker 1>getting angry about it for different reasons, but ultimately reaching

581
00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:36.440
<v Speaker 1>the consensus that no, like this is bad. This is

582
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:38.480
<v Speaker 1>a bad book, this is a bad situation. It just

583
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:39.720
<v Speaker 1>feels so really sorry for her.

584
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:42.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean maybe this is like a watershed moment.

585
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:52.759
<v Speaker 1>Hi, this is a young Culter. Welcome to my Ricochet

586
00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:56.599
<v Speaker 1>podcast and Coulter every week on Ricochet.

587
00:33:56.920 --> 00:34:01.000
<v Speaker 2>You're home to Center Right conversation. Hey, that was pretty good.

588
00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:10.800
<v Speaker 2>I just saw some interesting Pew research just a couple

589
00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:14.119
<v Speaker 2>of hours ago that infidelity is the lone issue polled

590
00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:17.400
<v Speaker 2>that a majority of both Republicans and Democrats believe is wrong,

591
00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:20.559
<v Speaker 2>and it pulls very closely. Eighty eight percent of Democrats

592
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:24.000
<v Speaker 2>think it's wrong and ninety three percent of Republicans say

593
00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:26.760
<v Speaker 2>married people having an affair is wrong. And that's essentially

594
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:29.119
<v Speaker 2>what this is. And it's just like a much more

595
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:31.760
<v Speaker 2>warped version because at least when you're having an affair,

596
00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:34.840
<v Speaker 2>you have the respect for me to hide it. Yes,

597
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:37.840
<v Speaker 2>in this situation, you're just flaunting it in the bedroom

598
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:38.239
<v Speaker 2>that I own.

599
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:41.079
<v Speaker 1>That is the thing about it, that kind of I

600
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:43.519
<v Speaker 1>don't know that I guess maybe grinds my gears the

601
00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:47.719
<v Speaker 1>most is you know, men have been cheating on their

602
00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:51.440
<v Speaker 1>wives since time immemoriam, and I guess you know vice versa,

603
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:55.440
<v Speaker 1>the idea that like, you want to do that, and

604
00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:58.920
<v Speaker 1>you also want to make it so that like she

605
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:01.760
<v Speaker 1>you can rub her face it and she's not allowed

606
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:04.440
<v Speaker 1>to be upset, and if she's upset, that makes her

607
00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:09.280
<v Speaker 1>like a bad progressive and maybe a racist. That's the

608
00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:09.800
<v Speaker 1>part of it.

609
00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:13.920
<v Speaker 2>It's just like, oh, come on, it's really it's deeply cruel,

610
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:18.079
<v Speaker 2>Like he's not he's not just hurting her, he's trying

611
00:35:18.280 --> 00:35:20.960
<v Speaker 2>to hurt her. What So you said in the book,

612
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:24.280
<v Speaker 2>which I'm wondering if you recommend actually reading the book.

613
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:25.159
<v Speaker 2>I was tempted.

614
00:35:25.639 --> 00:35:28.840
<v Speaker 1>Everybody needs to read this book. Everybody in America needs

615
00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:30.360
<v Speaker 1>to read this book just so they can talk about

616
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:32.920
<v Speaker 1>it with me personally.

617
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:35.239
<v Speaker 2>I would like to read one of your books before

618
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:38.199
<v Speaker 2>I read this book, so I'll faund it on my Yeah,

619
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:40.880
<v Speaker 2>I'll put it on my giant to read Pyle. But

620
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:46.320
<v Speaker 2>is there did she did she deserve it? Did she

621
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:50.079
<v Speaker 2>earn being so hated that he's just trying to hurt

622
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:50.719
<v Speaker 2>her like this?

623
00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:54.679
<v Speaker 1>Oh God, I don't. I mean, who deserves this? It's,

624
00:35:55.320 --> 00:36:02.159
<v Speaker 1>like you said, incredibly cruel. And I mean there is

625
00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:06.679
<v Speaker 1>an argument to be made that this is a mess,

626
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:09.719
<v Speaker 1>very much of her own creation, and you know, especially

627
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:13.239
<v Speaker 1>since she has chosen in the wake of releasing this

628
00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:18.679
<v Speaker 1>memoir to just double down and insist that everybody's misunderstanding it.

629
00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.599
<v Speaker 1>But to me, that just is like, that's just sad

630
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:24.719
<v Speaker 1>on top of sad. You know, it just makes me

631
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:25.519
<v Speaker 1>feel worse for her.

632
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:28.920
<v Speaker 2>It reminds me of Eat Pray Love. Do you do

633
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:30.519
<v Speaker 2>you get that vibe at all from it?

634
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:34.280
<v Speaker 1>You know, I think that the hope was that it

635
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:36.880
<v Speaker 1>would be received is Eat Pray Love. But the thing

636
00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:40.719
<v Speaker 1>about Eat Pray Love is that and about Elizabeth Gilbert

637
00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:47.760
<v Speaker 1>in general, you know, you get the sense that she's

638
00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:53.480
<v Speaker 1>not lying to herself about herself. You know, she's I

639
00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:57.760
<v Speaker 1>think she's a very impulsive person and I have a

640
00:36:57.800 --> 00:37:00.960
<v Speaker 1>theory she know, she recently wrote this book we're talking

641
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:03.800
<v Speaker 1>about Elizabeth Gilbert. Now, she wrote this addiction memoir called

642
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:08.199
<v Speaker 1>All the Way to the River, and my theory, having

643
00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:10.519
<v Speaker 1>read that book, is that her actual addiction is to

644
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:14.840
<v Speaker 1>telling stories about her life, and she will just continue

645
00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:18.559
<v Speaker 1>to do things to make content of her life, you know,

646
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:21.079
<v Speaker 1>so that she'll have a new story to tell, which

647
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:23.559
<v Speaker 1>is a kind of an interesting compulsion and of itself.

648
00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:27.159
<v Speaker 1>But I think that she is truthful about all of this.

649
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:30.000
<v Speaker 1>I think that she's you know, and she's messy, and

650
00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:32.840
<v Speaker 1>she's a hell of a storyteller. I mean it's her

651
00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:35.440
<v Speaker 1>books are like being cornered at a party by somebody

652
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:38.119
<v Speaker 1>who's like had the most insane life experience you've ever

653
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:40.039
<v Speaker 1>heard of, and they've got you by the wrist and

654
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:41.639
<v Speaker 1>they're going to tell you and they're not going to

655
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:43.159
<v Speaker 1>let you go, and you're like, I'm here for it.

656
00:37:43.719 --> 00:37:49.559
<v Speaker 1>Lindy West's book feels more like an attempt to persuade

657
00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:56.039
<v Speaker 1>the reader, but really persuade herself that she's not unhappy,

658
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.440
<v Speaker 1>and I don't think she succeeds in doing either.

659
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:03.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I agree. When I read the interview in Modern Love,

660
00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:06.800
<v Speaker 2>I thought to myself, Oh you are this is a

661
00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:09.719
<v Speaker 2>You've put a lot of effort into trying to convince

662
00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:12.400
<v Speaker 2>yourself you're okay and that you're happy. And it's that

663
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:15.599
<v Speaker 2>meme of the girl just sobbing and Messcara going down

664
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:18.760
<v Speaker 2>her face and she's like, I'm fine, I'm fine.

665
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:24.400
<v Speaker 1>That is literally the book's cover. Wait, seriously, yes, it

666
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:27.360
<v Speaker 1>is a are you kidding? It's a cartoon porter of

667
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:32.880
<v Speaker 1>Lindy West grinning through tears with mess Scara running down

668
00:38:32.920 --> 00:38:33.400
<v Speaker 1>her face.

669
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:38.519
<v Speaker 2>I had no idea. Yeah, oh my god, oh my god,

670
00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:43.920
<v Speaker 2>how did okay? So? I asked this as a rhetorical question.

671
00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:46.760
<v Speaker 2>Does she talk about how she has friends? Like? Does

672
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:50.360
<v Speaker 2>she have friends? Because I have a group chat. We

673
00:38:50.440 --> 00:38:52.519
<v Speaker 2>used to have a podcast. It was called Lady Brains,

674
00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:54.880
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of the listeners to the show used

675
00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:56.559
<v Speaker 2>to listen to Lady Brains, And so I have a

676
00:38:56.559 --> 00:38:58.559
<v Speaker 2>group chat of my best friends who we've all been

677
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:03.039
<v Speaker 2>very close for like fifteen years. If I said that

678
00:39:03.159 --> 00:39:07.920
<v Speaker 2>my husband had said a fraction of this, they would

679
00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:10.079
<v Speaker 2>be on my front door. They would be like ready

680
00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:13.159
<v Speaker 2>to go, like, yeah, a few cases packed, we're getting

681
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:15.360
<v Speaker 2>you out of here. Does she talk about friends?

682
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:23.119
<v Speaker 1>She does have friends, and I wonder, I don't know,

683
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:26.639
<v Speaker 1>it's it's hard to say, you know, is she in

684
00:39:26.679 --> 00:39:30.400
<v Speaker 1>a position where she can be told what other people

685
00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:35.320
<v Speaker 1>see about her life. I understand that, Like she certainly

686
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:40.239
<v Speaker 1>has spent a lot of time dismissing everybody who criticized

687
00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:43.880
<v Speaker 1>her book thus far as being you know, a hater

688
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:48.360
<v Speaker 1>who doesn't understand, or maybe like, oh, these people are conservatives,

689
00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:50.480
<v Speaker 1>so who cares what they think that kind of thing.

690
00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:54.679
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if anybody close to her has has

691
00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:57.000
<v Speaker 1>tried to step in, or if she's in a place

692
00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:01.719
<v Speaker 1>where she could receive that information and without just shutting down.

693
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:05.960
<v Speaker 2>I just want to say to her, you deserve better

694
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:08.599
<v Speaker 2>than this. Like it's not because I'm conservative, it's like,

695
00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:12.360
<v Speaker 2>as a woman, like woman to woman, you deserve better.

696
00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:16.800
<v Speaker 2>No one deserves being treated this way. And I feel

697
00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:19.599
<v Speaker 2>the same about what Elizabeth Gilbert did to her husband,

698
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:21.880
<v Speaker 2>like she was the villain of E Pray Love. No

699
00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:26.960
<v Speaker 2>one deserves what she did to him. But I that

700
00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:29.760
<v Speaker 2>used to be like the feminist thing to do is

701
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:34.880
<v Speaker 2>to hype another woman and say you deserve so much better.

702
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:37.920
<v Speaker 2>I I mean, those people are not her friends. If

703
00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:39.840
<v Speaker 2>they haven't said this, well.

704
00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:42.639
<v Speaker 1>Everybody, I think this is what I will say my

705
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:45.320
<v Speaker 1>sense from the book is that she's very much in

706
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:50.719
<v Speaker 1>a bubble with people who are also on team polyamory

707
00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:56.199
<v Speaker 1>as woke basically. And it's what is interesting to me

708
00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:59.360
<v Speaker 1>about that is that so much of the story that

709
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:04.880
<v Speaker 1>Lindy West tells about her life is really only applicable

710
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:08.360
<v Speaker 1>to somebody who lives inside that bubble. Even this whole

711
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:11.199
<v Speaker 1>thing of like I'm a fat woman and I found love,

712
00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:14.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, can you believe it? You go to like

713
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:18.320
<v Speaker 1>any rural area and like there's tons of fat people

714
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:21.079
<v Speaker 1>falling in love and getting married, Like it's we're a

715
00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:23.800
<v Speaker 1>very fat country and we are coupling up, and you

716
00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:27.360
<v Speaker 1>know that is it's just not strange for a fat

717
00:41:27.400 --> 00:41:30.480
<v Speaker 1>woman to find love and to get married to a

718
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:33.719
<v Speaker 1>guy who values her. I think it is strange if

719
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:35.800
<v Speaker 1>you live in one of these kind of like coastal

720
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:40.400
<v Speaker 1>liberal enclaves where people tend not to be fat, and

721
00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:43.519
<v Speaker 1>where you know, although nobody wants to talk about it,

722
00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:46.960
<v Speaker 1>there's quite a lot of stigma around being fat, and

723
00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:50.760
<v Speaker 1>people don't consider being fat to be attractive. And I

724
00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:52.199
<v Speaker 1>don't know, I guess maybe that's a little bit of

725
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:55.000
<v Speaker 1>a tragedy. And she even actually writes in the book

726
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:58.679
<v Speaker 1>about being approached by men while she's on this solo

727
00:41:58.760 --> 00:42:01.079
<v Speaker 1>road trip. I mean, she's got a very pretty face,

728
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:03.880
<v Speaker 1>and I think that she's not you know, she's not

729
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:08.280
<v Speaker 1>repulsive to men in general, but she's so grossed out

730
00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:11.480
<v Speaker 1>when this happens because she reads the guys approaching her

731
00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:16.239
<v Speaker 1>as likely conservatives or you know, or maga people, and

732
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:19.039
<v Speaker 1>so it's like, ew, how dare you? Which is I

733
00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:21.320
<v Speaker 1>don't know, it's I guess maybe ironic is the right

734
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:22.360
<v Speaker 1>word to describe that.

735
00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:25.880
<v Speaker 2>I think that one of the most one of the

736
00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:29.039
<v Speaker 2>least conservative things about me is my soft spot for

737
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Lena Dunham. And this is this just reminds me so much.

738
00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:34.960
<v Speaker 2>It's it's the it's the whole. It's the same ethos

739
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:39.000
<v Speaker 2>of like I accept myself but then I surround myself

740
00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:41.719
<v Speaker 2>with Blake Lively and Taylor Swift and it makes me

741
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:43.079
<v Speaker 2>feel like crap about myself.

742
00:42:43.719 --> 00:42:46.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. The thing is, Lena Dunham seems overall to me

743
00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:50.360
<v Speaker 1>just as a casual observer, more well adjusted.

744
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:53.119
<v Speaker 2>I think she is at this point, yes.

745
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:55.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I mean this is the thing is like,

746
00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:59.480
<v Speaker 1>this is a very this feels this memoir feels like

747
00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:02.760
<v Speaker 1>something that Lena Dunham would have written in her twenties

748
00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:07.559
<v Speaker 1>as auto fiction. You know, it feels like girls, except

749
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:12.880
<v Speaker 1>its real life. It's real people, and it's middle age,

750
00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:17.039
<v Speaker 1>which makes it I mean, it's certainly not cute. It

751
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:19.199
<v Speaker 1>also feels tragic for that reason.

752
00:43:19.719 --> 00:43:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Didn't she write about how she when they got married.

753
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:25.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm almost certain I remember this correctly. When when they

754
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:28.519
<v Speaker 2>got married she pictured them having like a white pick

755
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:31.000
<v Speaker 2>offence and having a kid or two, like she had

756
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:35.320
<v Speaker 2>pictured a traditional quote unquote life of you know, being

757
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:36.719
<v Speaker 2>monogamous and having a child.

758
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:39.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I wanted that she did. And I mean,

759
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:44.079
<v Speaker 1>whether it was reasonable to think that that would happen

760
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:46.320
<v Speaker 1>with this man who, at the age of I think

761
00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:49.760
<v Speaker 1>twenty eight, was twice divorced with two children from his

762
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:50.840
<v Speaker 1>previous marriages.

763
00:43:51.320 --> 00:43:51.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow.

764
00:43:52.119 --> 00:43:55.280
<v Speaker 1>You know, we can debate whether that was a naive

765
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:59.280
<v Speaker 1>thing to imagine that would happen with him specifically or not.

766
00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:01.639
<v Speaker 1>But but yeah, I think that is what she wanted.

767
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:05.039
<v Speaker 1>She's now convinced herself that it's not what she wants.

768
00:44:05.320 --> 00:44:07.320
<v Speaker 1>She wants to be in a threttle where she sleeps

769
00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:09.280
<v Speaker 1>in the guest room while her husband has sex with

770
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:10.199
<v Speaker 1>somebody else. Down the hall.

771
00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:14.800
<v Speaker 2>Wow, it's so tragic. It's really very sad. I think

772
00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:17.400
<v Speaker 2>it's comforting that you, at least in your observation of

773
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:19.760
<v Speaker 2>like reading everything that there is out there that there

774
00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:22.440
<v Speaker 2>is it sounds like universal condemnation, because that was not

775
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:26.039
<v Speaker 2>what I would have expected, like, you know, living in

776
00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:28.320
<v Speaker 2>my priors of like, oh, of course progressives love this.

777
00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:30.119
<v Speaker 2>It's nice to hear that that's not the case.

778
00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:33.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think everybody just finds it sad, you know,

779
00:44:33.320 --> 00:44:37.440
<v Speaker 1>again for different reasons. But there's really very little too

780
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:44.280
<v Speaker 1>like about this story unless you are a character in it.

781
00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:50.039
<v Speaker 2>Right. I wonder what her what her family and you know,

782
00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:55.559
<v Speaker 2>Roya's family think about, Like that's the that's the picture

783
00:44:55.559 --> 00:44:58.559
<v Speaker 2>that I always want when you get these stories. I follow,

784
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:01.519
<v Speaker 2>and it's weird that I do because both my parents

785
00:45:01.519 --> 00:45:04.760
<v Speaker 2>are dead. But one of my cultural things that I

786
00:45:04.840 --> 00:45:07.599
<v Speaker 2>enjoy following is people who are estranged from their parents,

787
00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:10.639
<v Speaker 2>And so I follow accounts of people from both sides,

788
00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:14.280
<v Speaker 2>people who are estranged and who did the estranging, and

789
00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:18.079
<v Speaker 2>I always want to hear the other side whenever, some whenever,

790
00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:20.639
<v Speaker 2>like the doormat mom. This is like one of the

791
00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:24.519
<v Speaker 2>Instagram accounts I follow whenever she posts I would like

792
00:45:24.599 --> 00:45:29.000
<v Speaker 2>to see a tet. I'd like to see her daughter respond. Yeah,

793
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:31.480
<v Speaker 2>and I really want to see what the other people

794
00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:35.679
<v Speaker 2>in Linda Linda West's life think about this from their perspective.

795
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:40.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean there was So this was a very

796
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:44.760
<v Speaker 1>weird deep cut of short lived substack drama. The writer

797
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:50.639
<v Speaker 1>Meg Keen on her substack posted a review of the book.

798
00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:53.719
<v Speaker 1>She wrote about how it was, you know, not feminist,

799
00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:56.239
<v Speaker 1>and you know it was basically a depiction of abuse.

800
00:45:57.079 --> 00:46:01.960
<v Speaker 1>And the husband showed up the comments and argued with

801
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:04.400
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of people for a while, and then I

802
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:07.320
<v Speaker 1>guess maybe came to his senses and deleted everything that

803
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:12.360
<v Speaker 1>he had said. Who But yes, I wild times out

804
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:13.239
<v Speaker 1>here on the internet.

805
00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:16.840
<v Speaker 2>I love substack. I love it. I once had an

806
00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:19.800
<v Speaker 2>ex boyfriend when I was working at Commentary Magazine. I

807
00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:23.280
<v Speaker 2>ran the back end of the website, and I had

808
00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:25.719
<v Speaker 2>an ex boyfriend who used to white night me in

809
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:29.880
<v Speaker 2>the comments section, and he signed up with his real email,

810
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:32.880
<v Speaker 2>but he would use a burner account as his user name,

811
00:46:33.800 --> 00:46:36.360
<v Speaker 2>and he had no way of knowing that I was

812
00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:38.320
<v Speaker 2>the person who ran the back end, and so I

813
00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:41.079
<v Speaker 2>was like, dude, I know that it's you. It's kind

814
00:46:41.079 --> 00:46:43.239
<v Speaker 2>of weird. We broke up a long time ago. I'm

815
00:46:43.239 --> 00:46:45.800
<v Speaker 2>married now, Like, you don't have to white night me

816
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:46.519
<v Speaker 2>in the comments.

817
00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:49.039
<v Speaker 1>Oh well, you know, but were you right?

818
00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:50.800
<v Speaker 2>Like yes, I was right.

819
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:52.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so you know, maybe he's just on the side

820
00:46:52.719 --> 00:46:53.119
<v Speaker 1>of truth.

821
00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:57.800
<v Speaker 2>No, but him and I disagreed deeply about everything, and

822
00:46:57.840 --> 00:46:59.480
<v Speaker 2>that was part of why we broke up. Also, he

823
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.559
<v Speaker 2>was a cheater and terrible guy.

824
00:47:02.599 --> 00:47:05.239
<v Speaker 1>But I maybe this was his way of saying he

825
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:05.920
<v Speaker 1>was sorry.

826
00:47:06.159 --> 00:47:09.519
<v Speaker 2>Maybe, But I'm I'm always interested, you know, as I'm

827
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:12.480
<v Speaker 2>interested in like the other side, hearing the other side.

828
00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:16.639
<v Speaker 2>What frustrates me is when people are not as like

829
00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:19.599
<v Speaker 2>transparent as you and I are, Like we are the

830
00:47:19.639 --> 00:47:24.440
<v Speaker 2>most stalkable people on in America. Like you wonder what

831
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:26.679
<v Speaker 2>we think, Like, just log onto my Twitter and you'll

832
00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:30.360
<v Speaker 2>find out. I'm my Instagram. Also, I'm updating my story

833
00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:34.119
<v Speaker 2>several times a day. I think it's deeply unjust when

834
00:47:34.119 --> 00:47:37.400
<v Speaker 2>people are not as stalkable, and I think it's I

835
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:41.719
<v Speaker 2>think it's not fair, And well that's what I have

836
00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:42.360
<v Speaker 2>to say about that.

837
00:47:42.760 --> 00:47:44.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, I'll go ahead and agree with you there.

838
00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:47.440
<v Speaker 1>Although what's funny is also that you know, being an

839
00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:51.000
<v Speaker 1>open book just seems to convince people that there's all

840
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:55.519
<v Speaker 1>of this secret, sinister like insane stuff that you believe

841
00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:56.360
<v Speaker 1>and are not saying.

842
00:47:56.800 --> 00:48:00.320
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so I want to end on this note. Actually, Okay,

843
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:03.199
<v Speaker 2>what is your favorite conspiracy theory that you believe? And

844
00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:04.400
<v Speaker 2>then I'll tell you mine.

845
00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:08.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, My favorite conspiracy theory that I believe is that

846
00:48:08.440 --> 00:48:13.639
<v Speaker 1>the Titanic that sank was not actually the Titanic. It

847
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:16.639
<v Speaker 1>was it was another ship called Oh, I can't remember

848
00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:21.719
<v Speaker 1>the Oh sorry, my husband would know, but I'm not

849
00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:25.440
<v Speaker 1>going to yell for him right now the phone. Yes,

850
00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:30.840
<v Speaker 1>what was it called? The ship that sank that wasn't

851
00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:38.559
<v Speaker 1>the Titanic. You don't remember, You're useless to me. I'm

852
00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:42.079
<v Speaker 1>getting another boyfriend who would remember this. But anyway, so,

853
00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:46.159
<v Speaker 1>the but the story is that there was this other

854
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:51.880
<v Speaker 1>ship that was going to be decommissioned after this voyage

855
00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:57.920
<v Speaker 1>and they wanted, you know, for insurance purposes, to send

856
00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:01.760
<v Speaker 1>it out, you know, tend that it was the Titanic,

857
00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:06.440
<v Speaker 1>and the tragedy was not supposed to unfold the way

858
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:10.039
<v Speaker 1>that it did. But the reason that the ship sank

859
00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:13.159
<v Speaker 1>had to do with it being this other older ship

860
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:15.559
<v Speaker 1>that was in a state of like disrepair.

861
00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:19.559
<v Speaker 2>Got it? How mainstream is this conspiracy theory?

862
00:49:20.079 --> 00:49:23.119
<v Speaker 1>I read about it in Popular Mechanics, so I think

863
00:49:23.119 --> 00:49:26.320
<v Speaker 1>it's pretty mainstream. Okay, what's okay? What's yours?

864
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:27.400
<v Speaker 2>Dinosaurs?

865
00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:29.320
<v Speaker 1>I think they were real?

866
00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:34.719
<v Speaker 2>No, I think that there's something like a dinosaur. But

867
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:37.800
<v Speaker 2>the hubris, it's the hubris that really does it for me.

868
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:40.039
<v Speaker 2>We own a lot of dinosaur books because I have

869
00:49:40.079 --> 00:49:43.199
<v Speaker 2>four boys, and the humors that they have when they're

870
00:49:43.239 --> 00:49:46.159
<v Speaker 2>like they were this tall, this is what they look like,

871
00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:48.719
<v Speaker 2>this is how fast they ran, this is what they ate,

872
00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:53.880
<v Speaker 2>and all of that certainty, it sets off my alarm bells.

873
00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:56.039
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I don't I don't think. I don't think

874
00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:58.559
<v Speaker 2>you know that much because you've got like four bones

875
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:02.119
<v Speaker 2>of that dinosaur, and you've constructed this whole pretense skeleton,

876
00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:04.519
<v Speaker 2>and you think you know what it looks like and

877
00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:07.960
<v Speaker 2>what it sounded like. And I just I think that

878
00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:11.880
<v Speaker 2>there were like weird creatures that existed a long, long,

879
00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:14.840
<v Speaker 2>long time ago, and we have we have no idea,

880
00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:18.599
<v Speaker 2>we don't know anything about them, and I think I

881
00:50:18.599 --> 00:50:21.280
<v Speaker 2>don't know why. I mean, I think that it's a

882
00:50:21.320 --> 00:50:24.840
<v Speaker 2>lie that has spun out of control in big paleontology.

883
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:27.800
<v Speaker 2>But I don't know. I don't know of the I mean,

884
00:50:27.880 --> 00:50:31.480
<v Speaker 2>your your conspiracy theory has like real actual validity when

885
00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:34.519
<v Speaker 2>it goes to like the reasoning. I don't have the

886
00:50:34.519 --> 00:50:38.360
<v Speaker 2>reasoning for my dinosaur conspiracy yet, other than it's just

887
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:42.920
<v Speaker 2>the hubris of the scientists. And I mean we kind

888
00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:45.440
<v Speaker 2>of saw it with Are you familiar with what happened

889
00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:46.719
<v Speaker 2>with Alzheimer's research?

890
00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:50.639
<v Speaker 1>I did hear about this. It's yeah, I mean devastating

891
00:50:50.679 --> 00:50:51.519
<v Speaker 1>really yeah.

892
00:50:51.559 --> 00:50:54.239
<v Speaker 2>And so it was just everyone was lying, and everyone

893
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:57.559
<v Speaker 2>thought that everyone else wasn't lying, and so they would

894
00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:00.760
<v Speaker 2>sort of push the ball forward with the lies about

895
00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:03.480
<v Speaker 2>the research they were doing and you know, change the

896
00:51:03.559 --> 00:51:07.360
<v Speaker 2>data and whatever based on this app this thesis that

897
00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:10.719
<v Speaker 2>turned out to not be true, and everyone was lying

898
00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:12.599
<v Speaker 2>and didn't know everyone else was lying. That's what I

899
00:51:12.639 --> 00:51:13.599
<v Speaker 2>think about dinosaurs.

900
00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:18.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, that doesn't not make sense to me.

901
00:51:18.400 --> 00:51:20.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm not necessarily sure that it applies to dinosaurs, but

902
00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:24.239
<v Speaker 1>it does apply to science in general. If you don't mind,

903
00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:26.719
<v Speaker 1>I will tell you my favorite story out of medical

904
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:31.559
<v Speaker 1>history before I let you go. In the early nineteen hundreds,

905
00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:35.000
<v Speaker 1>at an asylum in New Jersey. There was a man

906
00:51:35.239 --> 00:51:37.920
<v Speaker 1>who ran the asylum, a doctor. His name was Henry Cotton.

907
00:51:38.679 --> 00:51:41.039
<v Speaker 1>I love where this is going. He was convinced that

908
00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:45.440
<v Speaker 1>he had found the cure for insanity. Then the source

909
00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:51.239
<v Speaker 1>of insanity. This source was your teeth. Your teeth make

910
00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:55.840
<v Speaker 1>you crazy, and so he would take people's teeth out

911
00:51:56.440 --> 00:52:00.840
<v Speaker 1>to cure them of insanity. When that didn't work, he'd

912
00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:03.719
<v Speaker 1>be like, maybe it's not your teeth, Maybe it's something

913
00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:05.800
<v Speaker 1>else in the body, and he would start removing organs.

914
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:09.639
<v Speaker 1>He had this theory. It was called focal infection. There

915
00:52:09.679 --> 00:52:12.039
<v Speaker 1>was an infection somewhere in the body that was causing insanity,

916
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:14.480
<v Speaker 1>and he would just remove things from people, things they needed.

917
00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:18.119
<v Speaker 1>He killed dozens, if not hundreds of people at this asylum.

918
00:52:18.639 --> 00:52:22.760
<v Speaker 1>And at the time, the New York Times covered this

919
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:26.880
<v Speaker 1>man and his practices, and they said the only tragedy

920
00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:32.159
<v Speaker 1>was that he hadn't discovered the cure for insanity sooner,

921
00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:38.360
<v Speaker 1>and then eventually they were like, never mind, and.

922
00:52:38.280 --> 00:52:40.440
<v Speaker 2>Maybe all the dead people, who was also kind of tragic.

923
00:52:40.840 --> 00:52:43.079
<v Speaker 1>By then he was dead, but not before he pulled

924
00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:45.079
<v Speaker 1>out a whole bunch of his own teeth and also

925
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:48.880
<v Speaker 1>his wife's teeth and his children's teeth. Oh my god,

926
00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:51.280
<v Speaker 1>so Cubris not even once.

927
00:52:52.119 --> 00:52:54.119
<v Speaker 2>I love it. So this is what I love, and

928
00:52:54.159 --> 00:52:57.840
<v Speaker 2>I think this is why I'm so drawn to Lindy West.

929
00:52:58.159 --> 00:53:03.039
<v Speaker 2>I love just how crazy humanity is, every every form

930
00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:06.440
<v Speaker 2>of it. I I love watching it as an observer

931
00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:09.639
<v Speaker 2>who is not crazy, who has like a very conventional

932
00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:12.039
<v Speaker 2>normal life that I've created because I grew up in

933
00:53:12.039 --> 00:53:16.760
<v Speaker 2>a crazy house. But I just love I love looking

934
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:21.719
<v Speaker 2>at the just shit show. I mean, we we this.

935
00:53:21.760 --> 00:53:23.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to just mark this as e explicit like

936
00:53:23.960 --> 00:53:27.360
<v Speaker 2>we've talked about dildos, like the ship has sailed. It

937
00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:31.679
<v Speaker 2>is such a shit show other people's lives, and I

938
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:35.280
<v Speaker 2>I have some enjoyment looking at it from afar.

939
00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:40.440
<v Speaker 1>You know, good stories, true stories always always beat the

940
00:53:40.519 --> 00:53:44.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, instructive graphic novel about dildos.

941
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:48.400
<v Speaker 2>There you go, thank you for bringing There you go.

942
00:53:48.559 --> 00:53:51.639
<v Speaker 2>There you go. Where can people find you? Not that?

943
00:53:51.800 --> 00:53:54.639
<v Speaker 2>I mean, like I You're everywhere and you're amazing.

944
00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:57.679
<v Speaker 1>Yes, just don't don't come to my house. I am

945
00:53:57.800 --> 00:54:01.719
<v Speaker 1>on Twitter slash x as kat Rosenfield. I am writing

946
00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:04.519
<v Speaker 1>for the Free Press. I am right now in a

947
00:54:04.519 --> 00:54:06.760
<v Speaker 1>bookstore near you with my new novel How to Survive

948
00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:08.719
<v Speaker 1>in the Woods. You can find it in the thriller section.

949
00:54:08.920 --> 00:54:11.159
<v Speaker 1>It's got a big old bloody knife on the cover

950
00:54:11.880 --> 00:54:12.599
<v Speaker 1>and that's about it.

951
00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:15.199
<v Speaker 2>I love it. And because we are the mom Wars,

952
00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:18.599
<v Speaker 2>where can What are the names of your young adult books?

953
00:54:18.639 --> 00:54:21.639
<v Speaker 2>Because I feel like, especially my older daughter would appreciate them.

954
00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:22.679
<v Speaker 1>I thought you were about to be like, what are

955
00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:24.440
<v Speaker 1>the names of your children? I was like, don't have

956
00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:27.480
<v Speaker 1>any I'm wrapping the childless cat Lady continuent.

957
00:54:27.559 --> 00:54:29.559
<v Speaker 2>And I didn't say it. I didn't say it. That

958
00:54:29.679 --> 00:54:31.599
<v Speaker 2>was not the focus of our of our conversation.

959
00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:33.840
<v Speaker 1>No, no, And I appreciate that because I don't really

960
00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:35.639
<v Speaker 1>have a whole lot to say about being childless that

961
00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:39.440
<v Speaker 1>is worth hearing. My young adult books are called Amelia

962
00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:42.599
<v Speaker 1>and is Dead and Gone and Inland, and I will

963
00:54:42.599 --> 00:54:45.320
<v Speaker 1>say they have mature themes in them. But if you

964
00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:50.400
<v Speaker 1>have like a literary minded kid, I think they will

965
00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:50.960
<v Speaker 1>enjoy them.

966
00:54:51.239 --> 00:54:53.559
<v Speaker 2>Amazing. All right, Well, I can't wait. Thank you for

967
00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:57.159
<v Speaker 2>joining us, folks. Don't forget to subscribe to the substack

968
00:54:57.199 --> 00:54:59.719
<v Speaker 2>where you can watch us have this conversation. Cat looks

969
00:54:59.719 --> 00:55:02.559
<v Speaker 2>at me. I have a cold. It's not as great

970
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:08.079
<v Speaker 2>and subscribe on on your favorite podcast services of choice. Amazing.

971
00:55:08.360 --> 00:55:10.840
<v Speaker 2>All right, until next time. What do I say at

972
00:55:10.840 --> 00:55:17.559
<v Speaker 2>the end of this satellite? There we go Satellite Ricochet

973
00:55:19.280 --> 00:55:20.239
<v Speaker 2>join the conversation.