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<v Speaker 1>You are listening to the Confronting Christianity podcast, and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>here with my friend Michael Keller. Michael grew up in

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<v Speaker 1>New York City, attending public school for both elementary and

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<v Speaker 1>middle school. I love that as somebody who has kids

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<v Speaker 1>in both elementary and middle and high school public schools

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<v Speaker 1>in Cambridge, Massachusetts. He then graduated from Vanderbilt University, majoring

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<v Speaker 1>in history and psychology. He worked at London City Mission,

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<v Speaker 1>again in my hometown. I relate and enjoy that, and

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<v Speaker 1>New Life Fellowship in Queen's before he attended Gordon Conwell

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<v Speaker 1>Theological Seminary just north of the where I am in Cambridge.

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<v Speaker 1>I love how I'm making your buyer all about me, Michael,

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<v Speaker 1>where he received both an MDV and a THHM in apologetics.

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<v Speaker 1>Michael served as pastor of Community Life at City Life

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<v Speaker 1>Presbyterian Church in Boston before returning to the city by

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<v Speaker 1>which I think you mean New York City. I love

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<v Speaker 1>how New Yorker's just call it the city city. I

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<v Speaker 1>know it's like so arrogant. Anyway, that's another conversation to

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<v Speaker 1>start a new Reformed University fellowship chapter there. Michael also

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<v Speaker 1>received his PhD from the Free University in Amsterdam in

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<v Speaker 1>computational linguistics applied to Jonathan Edward's sermon Corpus. Gosh, we

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<v Speaker 1>could have a whole episode just talking about your bio, Michael,

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<v Speaker 1>that we're not going to. I am going to ask

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<v Speaker 1>you a couple of questions from it, though, because you,

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<v Speaker 1>like me, have spent significant time in London talking to

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<v Speaker 1>Londoners about Jesus. But I think for both of us

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<v Speaker 1>that was several years ago. So i'd love what was

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<v Speaker 1>your favorite conversation that you had when you were working

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<v Speaker 1>at London City Mission.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, well when I was first of all, Rebeerca.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me. This is a pleasure to be

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<v Speaker 2>on this podcast with you. It is fun how many

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<v Speaker 2>places our paths, at least culturally have crossed. West Boston, London,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe one day, the city of New.

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<v Speaker 1>York, the city which ought to be Jerusalem quite frankly

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<v Speaker 1>from a Christian perspective, but never mind, can carry.

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<v Speaker 2>On New Heavens and New York. Yeah. When I worked

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<v Speaker 2>with London City mentioned, it's a very it was a

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<v Speaker 2>very different populistan than the people I'm working with in

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<v Speaker 2>New York right now, just from a social economic background,

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<v Speaker 2>It was mostly Bengali Muslims that had come over from

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<v Speaker 2>one little town in Bangladesh, Sallette, and they were living

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<v Speaker 2>in council housing, and a lot of their questions were

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<v Speaker 2>very different questions from on the surface. I think a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of the conversations was it was about what does

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<v Speaker 2>it mean to be you know, human and part of

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<v Speaker 2>the state of you know, a lot of them were

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<v Speaker 2>growing up in London, but what does it mean to

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<v Speaker 2>be Muslim? What does it mean to be me? What

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<v Speaker 2>does it mean? So it was a lot of Actually, interestingly,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a lot of identity questions which I am talking

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<v Speaker 2>about today. So maybe you're right, maybe there's a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of similarities with New York and London anyway, even across

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<v Speaker 2>the socio economic differences.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting. Well, one of my favorite conversations, only from a

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<v Speaker 1>comedy perspective, to be honest, in London was several decades ago.

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<v Speaker 1>I was walking through Hyde Park, the sort of equivalent

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<v Speaker 1>of Central Park for translating for your New York audiences,

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<v Speaker 1>and an American guy stopped me and he said, can

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<v Speaker 1>I ask you a question? I said yes. He said,

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<v Speaker 1>do you believe in Jesus? I said yes, He said yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>but do you believe that Jesus is your savior? I

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<v Speaker 1>said yes. He said, but do you believe that Jesus

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<v Speaker 1>died on the cross and rose again? So that I

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<v Speaker 1>said yeah. He could not wrap his mind around the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that he had stumbled upon an actual, legitimate Christian

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<v Speaker 1>in the sort of pagan wilds of London. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there I was. I appreciated his fervor, but it was

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<v Speaker 1>almost like he was disappointed that I was an actual Christian.

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<v Speaker 2>It was fun As an American. I think a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people were like, oh, of course you're Christian because

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<v Speaker 2>of America's Christian At least that was the view that

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<v Speaker 2>they had, which of me. So I think it was

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<v Speaker 2>in some ways assumed that I would have these conversations

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<v Speaker 2>with them. So I think that was that was a

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<v Speaker 2>benefit I think was a hindrance in another way. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>Actually, you're right. I think a lot of Brits think

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<v Speaker 1>that everyone in America is Christian, and it seems a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of Americans think that nobody in England is. Like

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<v Speaker 1>I know, when my husband moved to from Oklahoma to

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<v Speaker 1>Cambridge in the UK to do his graduate work, he

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<v Speaker 1>very much thought and everyone around and thought like, there

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<v Speaker 1>is absolutely no way you would meet like a Christian

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<v Speaker 1>girl in England, Like there's I mean, it's like all

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<v Speaker 1>possibility of dating on hold until you're back in the

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<v Speaker 1>homeland kind of thing. But it turns out there are.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a band of brothers and sisters in the UK.

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<v Speaker 2>And I grew up in New York, and so being

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<v Speaker 2>a Christian from an orthodox position kind of historic Christianity

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<v Speaker 2>is a rare thing, kind of like the conversation you

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<v Speaker 2>had in Hyde Park. So it was always weird than

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<v Speaker 2>to be assumed you are a Christian because you're from America,

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<v Speaker 2>even though in New York. I'm like, right, wait, there

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<v Speaker 2>are Christians in New York. So it was always I

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<v Speaker 2>think I've always had those kind of funny conversations.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So on that note, I know, you know, several

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<v Speaker 1>decades ago, your dad, Tim Keller, moved to New York

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<v Speaker 1>and planted a church there and had the audacity to

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<v Speaker 1>think that modern New Yorkers could actually take serious Christianity seriously.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know why I use the word serious twice,

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<v Speaker 1>Like a kind of Bible believing gospel centered in some

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<v Speaker 1>ways quite kind of uncompromising understanding of who Jesus is

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<v Speaker 1>and what his claims are on us today, that modern

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<v Speaker 1>New Yorkers could actually take that seriously rather than needing

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<v Speaker 1>to have some sort of special accommodation to their cultural

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<v Speaker 1>cultural values. And you know, famously, to everyone's surprise, that

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<v Speaker 1>that hope turned out to be true, that there were

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<v Speaker 1>many people who turned out to be open to hearing

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<v Speaker 1>the gospel of Jesus, repenting and believing. And I know

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<v Speaker 1>that you're someone who not only grew up in Manhattan,

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<v Speaker 1>but has for a number of years now been witnessing

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<v Speaker 1>to the truth of the Christian message in various forms

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<v Speaker 1>and currently kind of pastoring a church in Manhattan. And

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<v Speaker 1>I'd love to hear your thoughts on today's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>cultural moment to kind of phrase and what kinds of

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<v Speaker 1>conversations you're having with skeptical new Yorkers or seeking new Yorkers,

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<v Speaker 1>all those who wouldn't yet identify it themselves as Christians.

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<v Speaker 1>But whether there is a openness today or whether that

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<v Speaker 1>window is sort of closed, I guess in the last

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<v Speaker 1>couple of decades.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a great question. And you know, growing up

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<v Speaker 2>in the city from the eighties and nineties, it's one

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<v Speaker 2>thing to kind of live it and then not necessarily

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<v Speaker 2>minister in the sense of your child. You're just sort

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<v Speaker 2>of swimming in these sort of spaces versus and coming

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<v Speaker 2>now being a pastor of a church for seven years after,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, being in other places. My sense is that

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<v Speaker 2>what was different and unique was back in the eighties

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<v Speaker 2>and nineties when Redeemer was started. I think my father

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<v Speaker 2>did a good job of trying to do a translation,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to translate the Gospel into concepts and forms that

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<v Speaker 2>people could understand. Sin is idolatry. You say sin is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, breaking God's law. Most New Yorkers than and

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<v Speaker 2>today it's like, well what does that mean? Because they

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<v Speaker 2>don't even know. If you say sin is is taking

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<v Speaker 2>something and making it too important, a good thing into

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<v Speaker 2>an ultimate thing. New Yorkers were like, oh, I understand

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<v Speaker 2>that there's a translation thing. It was very cognitive. But

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<v Speaker 2>then again, I think New York was very cognitive or

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<v Speaker 2>more so what I'm finding different this now it's two levels.

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<v Speaker 2>On one level, I think people are more post christian.

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<v Speaker 2>I think before people had the British view that all

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<v Speaker 2>Americans are Christians, I think Christianity was much more cultural

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<v Speaker 2>even in New York people had an understanding of it

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<v Speaker 2>in the eighties and nineties. I think what's different now

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<v Speaker 2>is where I'm seeing more and more people who are like,

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<v Speaker 2>what's Christianity? What do you mean by God? There's completely

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<v Speaker 2>a blank slate. And that's both the opportunity and it's

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<v Speaker 2>a challenge in its own right because level there's no

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<v Speaker 2>negative I have all these negative views of you because

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<v Speaker 2>I've never met a Christian, You're kind of an alien.

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<v Speaker 2>On the other side, positively, it's like, well, you don't

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<v Speaker 2>have to kind of do the backwards sort of apologetics

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<v Speaker 2>of here are the answers to all the bad versions

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<v Speaker 2>of Christianity that you've seen. The other thing I've just

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<v Speaker 2>seen is people are just less intellectually needing the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of logical arguments for the reason for God or the

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<v Speaker 2>problem of evil and suffering. Just they still care and people,

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<v Speaker 2>and it resonates with folks, but it's not the thing

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<v Speaker 2>that they lead with as much anymore. Is my sense, what.

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<v Speaker 1>Would you say now is the lead question or issue?

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<v Speaker 2>That's simple? It used to be is God? Is Christianity

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<v Speaker 2>really and true? Now it's is Christianity good?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>It does? It is it is it does Does it

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<v Speaker 2>work New Yorkers? I don't know if it's the same

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<v Speaker 2>thing in Boston. I feel like Boston's very my sense

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<v Speaker 2>there college influence, there's a lot of heading knowledge here.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like does it work?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>I think my dad one time said the ideas are

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<v Speaker 2>brought up in Boston, they're put in practice in New York,

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<v Speaker 2>they're subscribed to law in Washington, and they're made into

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<v Speaker 2>stories in LA and then kind of like there's just

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<v Speaker 2>like cycle kind of going around. But yeah, I think

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<v Speaker 2>people care about it. Does it work?

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<v Speaker 1>That's interesting? Yeah. I had a friend who lived for

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<v Speaker 1>many years in New York City and then moved to Boston,

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<v Speaker 1>and she said, in New York, when you meet somebody,

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<v Speaker 1>you ask where do you live, and then you can

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<v Speaker 1>figure out how much they earn from where they live.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's like the currency is literal currency, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>how much do you earn? Is the way that you

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<v Speaker 1>are going to be categorized and sort of your status

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<v Speaker 1>will be evaluated. In Boston, no one really cares how

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<v Speaker 1>much money you make. They care like where do you

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<v Speaker 1>go to school? Like what do you like? What is

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<v Speaker 1>your academic background? That's much more the currency, and so yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>even a relatively short distance that we can travel from

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<v Speaker 1>here to there. Also, I think in your people care

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<v Speaker 1>about what you're wearing. In ways Boston, you can be

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<v Speaker 1>completely shabby, which thank god, because I'm utterly shabby, and

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<v Speaker 1>Boston smiles fairly shabby.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm fairly shabby too. It's true. You're not wrong though

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<v Speaker 2>about the way it comes out of New York is

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<v Speaker 2>what do you do? Is the one of the first

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<v Speaker 2>you know, mind, what's your name, Michael? What do you do?

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<v Speaker 2>And that's another way that they can find out in

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<v Speaker 2>the social stratosphere.

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<v Speaker 1>So then when you say I'm a pastor, how do

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<v Speaker 1>people respond to that? How awkward? Is that?

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<v Speaker 2>One of three ways? Either check, please get me out

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<v Speaker 2>of the door, where's the closest exit? Two the second reason,

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<v Speaker 2>the second thing they say is they go straight into oh,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm I'm spiritual too, and they go into a straight

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<v Speaker 2>view of their own spirituality. Or three they ask questions

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<v Speaker 2>are like I don't understand, Like my kids are in school,

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<v Speaker 2>I go to the school functions, they you know, what

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<v Speaker 2>are you lawyer, doctor, pastor? Pastor? What? Why you know?

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<v Speaker 2>So you get those kind of questions.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, One of the things that I noticed in Boston,

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<v Speaker 1>which I think is I don't know that it's new new,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's certainly much more prominent now than it was

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<v Speaker 1>even sort of five or ten years ago, is that

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people who are not Christians or involved

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<v Speaker 1>in any other sort of traditional religion are reaching for

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<v Speaker 1>more sort of pagan spiritual practices, you know. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>everything from kind of tarot cards to participating in sort

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<v Speaker 1>of pagan rituals essentially derived from various different sort of

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<v Speaker 1>tribal gods, etc. That there's a lot of a lot,

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<v Speaker 1>like I don't know, ten years ago, I'd hear spiritual

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<v Speaker 1>but not religious, and I'd be like, oh, yeah, so

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you're kind of maybe into yoga and meditation

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<v Speaker 1>and you like feel one with the world sort of

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<v Speaker 1>spiritual but not Oh no, I just recently like drank

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<v Speaker 1>a potion and tried to have a vision of a

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<v Speaker 1>particular kind of goddess. But now now it's actually much

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<v Speaker 1>more pretty in apps, Yeah, pagan practices. Is that is

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<v Speaker 1>that going down in New York?

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<v Speaker 2>Or is that less not? I mean it might be

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<v Speaker 2>in New York. There's so many spaces I don't pretend

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<v Speaker 2>like I know every space of New York, and in

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<v Speaker 2>my area of New York and Manhattan, I think there's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of successful people who have kind of won

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<v Speaker 2>the lottery of going to a great school and kind

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<v Speaker 2>of getting a great job. And I think there's probably

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<v Speaker 2>still more of a skepticism when it comes to that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff. So I think that I just haven't

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<v Speaker 2>heard about it because I don't think they do it.

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<v Speaker 2>I think so I think more like what it used

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<v Speaker 2>to be interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>I wonder if that's partly a generational divide as well,

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<v Speaker 1>because this is predominantly sort of gen Z folks that

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<v Speaker 1>I'm hearing this from. Not to presume that you're talking

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<v Speaker 1>with with all the people, but you know, people who

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<v Speaker 1>are maybe more established in their careers, perhaps a less

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<v Speaker 1>into all the pagan stuff. But maybe it's maybe it's

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<v Speaker 1>just Boston as a hot house of pagan spirituality. Michael,

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<v Speaker 1>As you talk with people about the historic Christian faith

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<v Speaker 1>and he's you said to explained to them, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>when they say, like, what's Christianity? What does that conversation

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<v Speaker 1>look like for you? And do you feel like there's

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<v Speaker 1>any sort of receptivity among those you're talking to or

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<v Speaker 1>are you just like talking to hardened wolves down there

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<v Speaker 1>in New York as it you're feeling kind of encouraged

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<v Speaker 1>or discouraged or blend.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's again, I think there's just there's different

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<v Speaker 2>types of folks. I think most are I mean, in general,

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<v Speaker 2>there's more opportunities. I've seen here from a blank slate.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd never heard of Christianity before. There's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>folks who have grown up, they've tried religion. They've tried

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<v Speaker 2>they grew up in a Christian home, or they grew

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<v Speaker 2>up in a religious home, and they've fallen away from it,

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<v Speaker 2>and then they've become successful, and there's just this still

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<v Speaker 2>hunger and need. I remember one time visiting a friend

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<v Speaker 2>in Hawaii and it was kind of paradise, saying it

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<v Speaker 2>was great. I said, how do you do ministry out here?

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<v Speaker 2>He's a pastor out in Hawaii. And he goes, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>it's actually easy that you come out here is paradise,

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<v Speaker 2>and you're you're still sad and upset, And I said,

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<v Speaker 2>but then there's then I realized there's actually a parallel

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<v Speaker 2>in New York. Like you can be successful, you can

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<v Speaker 2>be on Wall Street, you can have these things, and

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<v Speaker 2>then you're kind of like, wait, is this it? And

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<v Speaker 2>there's sort of there's a cliche about it, But I

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<v Speaker 2>think there's also a real space where people do wrestle

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<v Speaker 2>with like there's got to be more. What else is there?

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<v Speaker 2>What do I do with this? So I do think

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<v Speaker 2>that there's a lot of great questions like that, and

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<v Speaker 2>people just teasing out questions and helping them discover it

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<v Speaker 2>more instead of giving them the straight up arguments for

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<v Speaker 2>here's why you should believe kind of more going, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>you have a good thing here. It's good to care

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<v Speaker 2>about your job, it's good to do these things. But

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<v Speaker 2>here is where it's very Augustinian, right. Your problem isn't

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<v Speaker 2>that you have these desires and stuff. It's it's that

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<v Speaker 2>your desires are out of order. And let's talk about

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<v Speaker 2>the order of your desires. And that tends to resonate

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<v Speaker 2>with a lot of a lot of folks so.

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<v Speaker 1>Much a you're talking to me, and I'll I you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I will someone living down the street from you, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm the kind of person who doesn't have much spiritual

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<v Speaker 1>background and is literally saying to you, like what is Christianity?

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<v Speaker 1>Like I have no idea, tell me what do you believe?

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<v Speaker 1>What would you What would you say to me if

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<v Speaker 1>I were a New Yorker?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, one of my favorite ways of doing it, and

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<v Speaker 2>I still do because I did it. I was walking

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<v Speaker 2>with a friend in my building a couple of weeks ago,

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<v Speaker 2>and he knows this person is a pastor, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he said, give me your best shot. You never we

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<v Speaker 2>never talked about your your stuff. Give me your best shot,

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<v Speaker 2>as if like I had like some sort of pitch right,

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<v Speaker 2>And I find it more helpful to ask questions. I said, well,

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<v Speaker 2>why don't you tell me what you think I believe?

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<v Speaker 2>And I would love you. I think that'd be more fun.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you think I believe? And he would make

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<v Speaker 2>a list in it and then he'd say what do

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<v Speaker 2>you think? I said, I don't believe that stuff really either,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's like, really, well, what do you believe? And

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<v Speaker 2>it ends up having a conversation like that, But I

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<v Speaker 2>guess so would I basically try to get to When

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<v Speaker 2>we get to those kind of conversations, I say, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I think the experiences I have show me that there

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<v Speaker 2>needs to be more to this world than just you

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<v Speaker 2>come from nothing, you go to nothing, and there's something

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<v Speaker 2>in between. It doesn't make sense to me, and in

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<v Speaker 2>my experiences does it make sense to you? And they go, no,

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't make I mean no, I think we're all

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<v Speaker 2>in this world trying to figure it out. And I'm like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that sounds nice. But then if you really get to it,

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<v Speaker 2>can you really base your life off of that? I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think you do. I think you're hoping that there's

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<v Speaker 2>more to it, and they're like, well, yeah, but how

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<v Speaker 2>can we possibly know? And so they ends up being

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<v Speaker 2>those kind of conversations. But I start with you tell

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<v Speaker 2>me what you think I believe, and then we get

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<v Speaker 2>to kind of go after the misunderstandings, and then we

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<v Speaker 2>kind of get to, well, what actually explains the world?

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<v Speaker 2>What story actually explains the world the best in our experiences,

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<v Speaker 2>and we kind of just pick we get through it,

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<v Speaker 2>and sometimes we get to here's what Christian actually says,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's really beautiful.

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<v Speaker 1>And how would you explain that? So I said, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>well tell me what is the story that you find

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<v Speaker 1>so compelling?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, the way I was met myself in college

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<v Speaker 2>it tends to be still the place where I go,

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<v Speaker 2>which is everything in my experience, is you are what

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<v Speaker 2>you do. It's kind of like the there's a I

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<v Speaker 2>think Batman begins. There's the older Batman series. There's this

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<v Speaker 2>scene where Bruce Wayne's talking and he's like, you are

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<v Speaker 2>what you do, And I think that that's the essence

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<v Speaker 2>of sort of our humanity, whether it's what I produce

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<v Speaker 2>or my friendships or my money, or you are what

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<v Speaker 2>you do, and everything I've seen in my experiences, that's

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<v Speaker 2>not going to be enough. And instead of having to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of earn your identity of what you are what

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<v Speaker 2>you do, every religion says that it's here are the precepts,

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<v Speaker 2>here's what's right, here's what's wrong. Do these things and

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<v Speaker 2>then you're in. And there's a secular version of that too,

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<v Speaker 2>which is get the right amount of money. I fine,

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<v Speaker 2>get into the right schools, do this. It's still what

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<v Speaker 2>you do. And and the only faith I've ever come

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<v Speaker 2>across that's the unique and different from that, it's Christiane

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<v Speaker 2>that says, yeah, these are good things. There are ten commandments,

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<v Speaker 2>there are things you should do, but you're never going

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<v Speaker 2>to do them well or perfect. But there was one

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<v Speaker 2>who did, and he hands that to you because he

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<v Speaker 2>loves you that much. And I say, I tell people,

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<v Speaker 2>I said, give me the paradigm that doesn't that lets

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<v Speaker 2>you be fully accepted and fully known despite not having

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<v Speaker 2>all put together. And usually then the comes up, this

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<v Speaker 2>is too good to be true in this whole other conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>But I show you uniqueness of how Christianity is outside

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<v Speaker 2>the paradigm of every other human experience that we have.

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<v Speaker 1>I was talking to a young women the other day

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<v Speaker 1>who comes from an Indian background, and I've just given

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<v Speaker 1>a talk where I was slightly absurdly the group who

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<v Speaker 1>I was speaking for it told me that they wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to me to address how can you say there's anyone

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<v Speaker 1>true faith? How can a love and God allow suffering?

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<v Speaker 1>And how can a love and God send people to hell?

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<v Speaker 1>So you know all about in twenty minutes please kind

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<v Speaker 1>of thing. And then we did a Q and A

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<v Speaker 1>and this young woman came up to me afterwards, and

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<v Speaker 1>she from her background, she said, do you believe in

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<v Speaker 1>karma like the Christians believe in karma? And my first

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<v Speaker 1>answer was, well, no, we actually believe that we are

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<v Speaker 1>given Jesus's righteousness, Like actually, I can't sort of earn

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<v Speaker 1>my way to God. It's not a case of me

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<v Speaker 1>sort of building up good karma and finding myself, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>somehow sort of spiritually acceptable that actually I've completely failed

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<v Speaker 1>and only Jesus' death on the cross can can pay

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<v Speaker 1>for my sin and give me his righteousness. But then

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<v Speaker 1>I sort of said, well, let's put that in karma terms.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like Jesus took all of my bad karma and

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<v Speaker 1>gave me all of his good karma. Like I mean, again,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't sort of fully understand the system of karma

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<v Speaker 1>as I should, but that it's like a radical difference

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<v Speaker 1>from any belief system that depends on us sort of

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<v Speaker 1>working our way up the spiritual sort of hierarchy or

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<v Speaker 1>accruing enough good works to be to be pleasing to God.

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<v Speaker 1>That it sort of cuts that cuts. Then hees out

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<v Speaker 1>from under us if we think that we can do that,

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<v Speaker 1>and reassures us if we know that we can't, because

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<v Speaker 1>actually Jesus has done it all for us. You've mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>that you're your dad did a good job of sort

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<v Speaker 1>of translating the Gospel into the terms of the culture

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<v Speaker 1>that he saw around him in New York in the

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<v Speaker 1>eighties and nineties, early two thousands, et cetera. What would

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<v Speaker 1>you say, is the main or would have been some

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<v Speaker 1>sort of frameworks for translation that you found helpful in

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<v Speaker 1>the Year of Our Lord twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, first of all, by the way, do you remember

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<v Speaker 2>that maybe you don't. You should know because.

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<v Speaker 1>There are lots of things I should know that I don't.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you too, Bye Bono. He's from He's from Ireland, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So that's all everything is, that's all that's British. I'm juious,

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<v Speaker 2>well an American. Indeed, I know it's that true. I

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<v Speaker 2>know it's that true.

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<v Speaker 1>My husband's a big You two fan, so I might

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<v Speaker 1>know something about Bono.

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<v Speaker 2>He's got this great quote. I'm gonna butcher it. But

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<v Speaker 2>it's about karma and he he he basically says, I

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<v Speaker 2>believe in karma. Now he's he says he's a Christian. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>how so he's in an interview process. It's Google Bono

418
00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:14.720
<v Speaker 2>and Karma and it's something along the lines of, well,

419
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:18.599
<v Speaker 2>karma is you know you do something wrong, you you

420
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:21.160
<v Speaker 2>get that eventually it's coming for you. And he's like,

421
00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:25.279
<v Speaker 2>if I'm if karma's real, then I'm I'm I'm you know,

422
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm in trouble here, but I believe grace breaks through

423
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:31.480
<v Speaker 2>that the you know, the karma world that we all

424
00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:34.839
<v Speaker 2>kind of live in, and rescues me. And I think

425
00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:37.319
<v Speaker 2>it's it's a beautiful quote, but basically it resonates with

426
00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:39.960
<v Speaker 2>what the way you kind of put that, that's why

427
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.079
<v Speaker 2>you said, what do we live in? Karma? No? But

428
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:44.640
<v Speaker 2>but kind of yeah, in the sense of if the

429
00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:48.000
<v Speaker 2>world is like you get what you pay for, you know, money,

430
00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:52.640
<v Speaker 2>then are we doing enough? And I think there's that's

431
00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:55.680
<v Speaker 2>a whole other conversation, but we're in trouble if if

432
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:58.519
<v Speaker 2>it's up to what we put if are we putting

433
00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:00.000
<v Speaker 2>enough in to get what we should get out?

434
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? I mean I guess for Christians, you either get

435
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:04.599
<v Speaker 1>what you pay for or you got what Jesus paid for,

436
00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:06.440
<v Speaker 1>And it's up to you whether you want to take

437
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:09.519
<v Speaker 1>Jesus's payment or whether you want to pay the price

438
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:10.519
<v Speaker 1>for your sin yourself.

439
00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:14.359
<v Speaker 2>I often think the difference Christian non Christian is not necessarily there.

440
00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:17.240
<v Speaker 2>A lot of it is just realizing what I'm actually

441
00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:21.279
<v Speaker 2>doing is not enough and I need someone else's payment

442
00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:24.160
<v Speaker 2>system because what I'm doing, as good as it is.

443
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:26.920
<v Speaker 2>I was preaching the other day and I said, I

444
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.839
<v Speaker 2>was talking about I've been married for twenty two years,

445
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.759
<v Speaker 2>and there's been times when I've repented to my wife

446
00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:36.519
<v Speaker 2>and I said, I'm really sorry that I'd messed up

447
00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:39.799
<v Speaker 2>in this area. But then part of my heart goes, yeah,

448
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:41.319
<v Speaker 2>I'm the kind of you know, I'm a pastor. I'm

449
00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:43.640
<v Speaker 2>the kind of guy who feels good. Yeah, I repent.

450
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:45.079
<v Speaker 2>I'm a kind of guy who can do that. But

451
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:47.200
<v Speaker 2>then you start feeling good about how much you repent,

452
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:50.359
<v Speaker 2>then it's about you. So you start prioritizing yourself and

453
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:54.039
<v Speaker 2>centering yourself, which then twists the good thing and making

454
00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:56.400
<v Speaker 2>it about you, which is then not good at all.

455
00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:00.559
<v Speaker 2>So is that enough? Like? And I think that's the

456
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:02.920
<v Speaker 2>the root of the issue of are we pain enough?

457
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:07.599
<v Speaker 2>To your question about the what is twenty twenty four need?

458
00:23:08.359 --> 00:23:12.759
<v Speaker 2>I think, in a nutshell, what I'm seeing in New

459
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:17.440
<v Speaker 2>York is a world that is being slowly pulled apart

460
00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:21.400
<v Speaker 2>back into tribal systems, whether it's political or racial or

461
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:24.559
<v Speaker 2>socio economic. And I think there's reasons for that. For

462
00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:28.680
<v Speaker 2>power that I think people are doing it. It's also easier,

463
00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:33.000
<v Speaker 2>it's also more comfortable. It's also safer. And I think

464
00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:37.680
<v Speaker 2>when it comes to translation of the Gospel. I think

465
00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:40.480
<v Speaker 2>Christianity kind of has a lot to say in those

466
00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:43.279
<v Speaker 2>kind of spaces that we're being pulled into these different

467
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:47.480
<v Speaker 2>places and not able to talk past each other. I

468
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:50.359
<v Speaker 2>think Christianity offers a way to do forgiveness and repentance

469
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:54.079
<v Speaker 2>where you own I messed up, instead of cancelation where

470
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:57.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm just gonna you're done and out. It lets us

471
00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:00.720
<v Speaker 2>be able to kind of call evil and sen what

472
00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:05.160
<v Speaker 2>it is, but then assibly create a path for reconciliation

473
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:09.480
<v Speaker 2>potentially and getting back into relationship that I think is powerful.

474
00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:11.240
<v Speaker 2>So I think that's something that is unique for twenty

475
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:14.279
<v Speaker 2>twenty four that I don't think we think enough on.

476
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:18.440
<v Speaker 2>It's just that's just one of the things is how

477
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:20.640
<v Speaker 2>are we in a space were being pulled apart ever

478
00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:23.519
<v Speaker 2>going to be able to come together again in any

479
00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:26.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of meaningful way. And I think forgiveness and repentance

480
00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:27.720
<v Speaker 2>has got to be the way.

481
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:31.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I also often reflect

482
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:34.119
<v Speaker 1>on the fact that I meet people through my church

483
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:37.480
<v Speaker 1>who I would never meet in other cons like if

484
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:39.079
<v Speaker 1>I were not a Christian, I would not be in

485
00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:43.519
<v Speaker 1>relationship with these with these people for whatever whatever reason,

486
00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:47.599
<v Speaker 1>And that actually, sort of ironically, many in our sort

487
00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:50.079
<v Speaker 1>of modern Western world who think they believe deeply in

488
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:53.000
<v Speaker 1>diversity and that that's a very high kind of value

489
00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:56.720
<v Speaker 1>for them, in actual fact operate in profoundly non diverse

490
00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:01.279
<v Speaker 1>sort of segments of society, or segments that are only

491
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:03.920
<v Speaker 1>very limited in terms of the diversity that they offer.

492
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:08.000
<v Speaker 1>I had a friend who previously had identified as a

493
00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:11.000
<v Speaker 1>Christian and then many years ago sort of walked away

494
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:14.559
<v Speaker 1>from faith. And one of the things that she commented

495
00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.880
<v Speaker 1>that she missed sort of ten years later where she

496
00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:20.240
<v Speaker 1>was like, now, like, I only associate with people who

497
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:22.680
<v Speaker 1>are basically rich like me, Like, I don't have any

498
00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:26.359
<v Speaker 1>I have no connection with anybody outside of my sort

499
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:29.960
<v Speaker 1>of economic bubble. You know, my kids are in private schools.

500
00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:33.160
<v Speaker 1>My work life is only with people who are highly

501
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:37.119
<v Speaker 1>educated and very sort of prosperous. I have no you know,

502
00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:39.359
<v Speaker 1>I can maybe sort of give charitably if I want it,

503
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:41.359
<v Speaker 1>but like or say hi to a homeless person on

504
00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:43.400
<v Speaker 1>the street, but there's no kind of framework in my

505
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:46.759
<v Speaker 1>life and meaningful relationships with people who are actually different

506
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:49.200
<v Speaker 1>from me. And I thought that was just striking because

507
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:52.480
<v Speaker 1>I take for granted that I rub shoulders and spend

508
00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:53.839
<v Speaker 1>time with and have you know, at my house for

509
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:58.200
<v Speaker 1>Thanksgiving people with a whole range of different socioeconomic backgrounds.

510
00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:01.960
<v Speaker 1>And you know we are that kind of diverse background

511
00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:04.640
<v Speaker 1>as well. But like you know, age range, everything, and

512
00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:05.960
<v Speaker 1>it's all because of church.

513
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.559
<v Speaker 2>Actually back, let me ask you a question. In our

514
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:11.119
<v Speaker 2>my circles, maybe the same in Boston, there's a high

515
00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:13.079
<v Speaker 2>value of Hey, no, diversity is a good thing, and

516
00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:15.200
<v Speaker 2>we need to we need to come across lines and

517
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:17.480
<v Speaker 2>we need each other. You see things I don't see

518
00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:21.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of my secular friends have that value. We

519
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:23.440
<v Speaker 2>do as Christians and stuff. But is do you see

520
00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:26.519
<v Speaker 2>a difference in the Christian version of how we get

521
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:28.960
<v Speaker 2>there and why we you know, like you said, in

522
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:31.559
<v Speaker 2>a church space, you you're getting to come together people

523
00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:35.319
<v Speaker 2>we wouldn't normally. What's the difference between the secular value

524
00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:39.000
<v Speaker 2>of we should? There's something implicitly they get that we're

525
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:42.880
<v Speaker 2>supposed to do this versus the Christian version which see

526
00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:44.640
<v Speaker 2>on the surface looks the same or they are they

527
00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:47.160
<v Speaker 2>different at all? Or or how you get there?

528
00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:49.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think in many ways that sort of modern

529
00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:52.400
<v Speaker 1>seemingly secular values are actually Christian values that have been

530
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:55.079
<v Speaker 1>sort of repackaged. So in fact, you know, if we

531
00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:58.200
<v Speaker 1>ask ourselves, why do we believe in diversity, Why do

532
00:26:58.279 --> 00:27:02.119
<v Speaker 1>we think that love across or ethnic differences is good?

533
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:04.640
<v Speaker 1>Why do we think that we should care for the

534
00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:06.319
<v Speaker 1>poor and the weak and the marginalized? Like, all of

535
00:27:06.359 --> 00:27:08.640
<v Speaker 1>these things have actually come to us from Christianity. And

536
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:10.759
<v Speaker 1>that's despite the history of Christian sin that you could

537
00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:12.440
<v Speaker 1>point to, and you know, in the history of the US,

538
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:14.960
<v Speaker 1>et cetera. So I think that the fact that there

539
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:20.400
<v Speaker 1>is overlap there is because actually Jesus started this extraordinarily.

540
00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:24.279
<v Speaker 1>I mean, Christianity is by any measure, the greatest movement

541
00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:28.720
<v Speaker 1>for diversity in all of history. But I think, whereas

542
00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:32.519
<v Speaker 1>you know, many of my friends with a similar kind

543
00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:39.319
<v Speaker 1>of educational background who value diversity in some senses, actually

544
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:43.880
<v Speaker 1>in their day to day lives aren't experiencing it, or

545
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:46.000
<v Speaker 1>at least only in very sort of limited form. So

546
00:27:46.039 --> 00:27:48.119
<v Speaker 1>you might have the diversity of people with different sort

547
00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:51.920
<v Speaker 1>of sexual identities, et cetera. But perhaps and people have

548
00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:56.039
<v Speaker 1>different racial backgrounds, but not like different education levels, for instance.

549
00:27:56.039 --> 00:27:58.599
<v Speaker 1>I actually think that's often a much harder kind of

550
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:02.440
<v Speaker 1>barrier to cut across than some others and one of

551
00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:04.920
<v Speaker 1>the things that I yeah experience in church is just

552
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:09.599
<v Speaker 1>like ongoing fellowship with people who are completely different from me,

553
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:13.799
<v Speaker 1>and the only thing that unites us is Jesus. And

554
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:16.480
<v Speaker 1>that's that's okay, Like that was true from the very

555
00:28:16.519 --> 00:28:19.920
<v Speaker 1>beginnings of the church. And I was just writing this

556
00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.319
<v Speaker 1>morning about when Paul says in his letter to the

557
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.319
<v Speaker 1>Christians in Galatia, in here there is neither jee nor Greek,

558
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:29.319
<v Speaker 1>male or female stave, nor free for Christ's all and

559
00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:32.079
<v Speaker 1>is all in all? Or is it for you all

560
00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:35.160
<v Speaker 1>one in Christ Jesus. I know there's the verse in Galatians,

561
00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:36.599
<v Speaker 1>and there's a verse in Clausions where he's there's something

562
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:39.440
<v Speaker 1>very similar, and I may have mixed those two together,

563
00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:42.119
<v Speaker 1>so apologies for those more astute than I am. But

564
00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:46.680
<v Speaker 1>this sense of actually our unity in Christ across all

565
00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:51.279
<v Speaker 1>sorts of differences is deep and profound and relativizes every

566
00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:54.480
<v Speaker 1>other kind of difference. And I don't think it makes

567
00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:59.000
<v Speaker 1>it easy. I think I think the experience of church should,

568
00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:02.640
<v Speaker 1>in meaningful ways be work, because if I'm going to

569
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:05.559
<v Speaker 1>build actual relationships with people who don't have the exact

570
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:09.319
<v Speaker 1>same background that I do, it's going to be harder

571
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:12.319
<v Speaker 1>work to find things that we discuss, some things we

572
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:16.000
<v Speaker 1>connect on. But it's a really it's a work that's

573
00:29:16.519 --> 00:29:19.839
<v Speaker 1>it's like getting to know your family. And it means

574
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:22.319
<v Speaker 1>that you can have many for relationships across generations and

575
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:28.440
<v Speaker 1>across political differences, across socio economic divides, across educational differences,

576
00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:32.279
<v Speaker 1>because you have in common the fact that you all

577
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:35.400
<v Speaker 1>worship the same first entry, a Jewish man who died

578
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:36.160
<v Speaker 1>on across you know.

579
00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:39.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think you make a very good point. It

580
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:41.039
<v Speaker 2>matters what happens when the rubber meets to row, Like

581
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:43.119
<v Speaker 2>what happens when it's easy to say we have the

582
00:29:43.160 --> 00:29:45.599
<v Speaker 2>same value. You know, diversity is good, But what happens

583
00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:49.200
<v Speaker 2>when there's conflict. I remember I met someone and they

584
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:51.559
<v Speaker 2>found out as a pastor, and their first phrase to

585
00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:54.640
<v Speaker 2>me was, oh, you must hate me then, and I

586
00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:57.200
<v Speaker 2>was like what what? And they're like, well, you don't

587
00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:00.200
<v Speaker 2>you think I'm going to hell? And because I don't

588
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:02.279
<v Speaker 2>believe in what you believe? And I said, well, well

589
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:05.279
<v Speaker 2>hold on, I don't. I don't get to decide who

590
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:06.880
<v Speaker 2>gets to go to heaven or hell. And that's the

591
00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:10.279
<v Speaker 2>whole point of God that they say, well, my value

592
00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:13.279
<v Speaker 2>is the core of my faith as a man who

593
00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:15.880
<v Speaker 2>dies for people who don't agree with him, and so

594
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:17.799
<v Speaker 2>that's that's the court of my faith. I'm going to

595
00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:19.640
<v Speaker 2>I would I don't know you, but I would die

596
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:22.839
<v Speaker 2>for you because that's who my savior is. And I

597
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.799
<v Speaker 2>would say, what you know, in your view, why would

598
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:29.319
<v Speaker 2>you want to hang out and care about me? You know,

599
00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:31.599
<v Speaker 2>what's what's letting you be able to enter into my

600
00:30:31.640 --> 00:30:33.319
<v Speaker 2>world and be with me? I have I know why

601
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:35.359
<v Speaker 2>I would enter into your world even though we disagree.

602
00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:40.000
<v Speaker 2>And it really was jarring for that person. Wasn't the conversation.

603
00:30:40.039 --> 00:30:42.759
<v Speaker 2>This is over an hour conversation. You're like, it didn't

604
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:45.880
<v Speaker 2>start that way, but but basically it was like, Hey,

605
00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:49.880
<v Speaker 2>you're talking about tolerance. My view of tolerance is I'm

606
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:52.799
<v Speaker 2>willing to disagree on this but still love you and

607
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:54.759
<v Speaker 2>want to be with you. What's going to allow you

608
00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:57.480
<v Speaker 2>to love me and be with me even though you

609
00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:00.920
<v Speaker 2>disagree with me? And they struggled. It was a little

610
00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:01.759
<v Speaker 2>bit of a struggle for them.

611
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:05.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and as I follow Jesus, it isn't even a butt,

612
00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:07.519
<v Speaker 1>it's a because I mean, if Jesus tells us to

613
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:10.960
<v Speaker 1>love even our enemies, we can't follow Jesus and hate

614
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:13.559
<v Speaker 1>our enemies. It's just not on the table for us,

615
00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:16.880
<v Speaker 1>Like it's actually kind of built into the system that

616
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:19.680
<v Speaker 1>because we worshiped the one who died for his enemies,

617
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.039
<v Speaker 1>including us, part of our calling.

618
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:23.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And it was a weird turn of things because

619
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:25.200
<v Speaker 2>they were trying to say I was the one who

620
00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:27.759
<v Speaker 2>was pushed them away, sitting them holding no, I'm actually

621
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:30.000
<v Speaker 2>here to love you and care for you even though

622
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:31.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I don't know where you're I don't

623
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:33.799
<v Speaker 2>just say where your heart is and where you're going.

624
00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:36.319
<v Speaker 2>Then all of a sudden realized, oh, they'rely one's pushing

625
00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:39.039
<v Speaker 2>back up. They were actually not able to kind of

626
00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:42.240
<v Speaker 2>accept me for where I am. Basically, I think that's

627
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:44.559
<v Speaker 2>another question that I think New Yorkers struggle with, which

628
00:31:44.599 --> 00:31:48.160
<v Speaker 2>is disagreement does not necessarily mean hate. Yeah, And I

629
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:51.640
<v Speaker 2>think there's a lot of that conversation in the culture,

630
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:53.359
<v Speaker 2>which is if you disagree, you must hate me, and

631
00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:55.480
<v Speaker 2>if you don't love me, if you don't accept me.

632
00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:58.240
<v Speaker 2>So wait a second, I tell my own my own kids,

633
00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:00.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't accept all of you. I still love you

634
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:02.599
<v Speaker 2>because there's things that are not acceptable. That means I

635
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:04.759
<v Speaker 2>can disagree with you and still love you, and that

636
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.240
<v Speaker 2>means it's not hate. And I think those questions are

637
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:10.279
<v Speaker 2>very hard for folks of how is it possible to

638
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:14.160
<v Speaker 2>be in New York is a great example of lots

639
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.799
<v Speaker 2>of people who disagree. But how do we then still

640
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:21.079
<v Speaker 2>do life together and you know, not be perpetually mad

641
00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:21.599
<v Speaker 2>at each other?

642
00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:25.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And it's interesting that the assumption is I mean

643
00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.799
<v Speaker 1>I would actually in a similar conversation, I think I

644
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:33.160
<v Speaker 1>would perhaps be even more blunt to say, if you're

645
00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:35.160
<v Speaker 1>not following Jesus, I do actually believe that you're going

646
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:38.319
<v Speaker 1>to hell, and it would be an act of love

647
00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:40.319
<v Speaker 1>for me to point you to him. It actually breaks

648
00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:44.799
<v Speaker 1>my heart, like I take no pleasure whatsoever in somebody

649
00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:49.720
<v Speaker 1>headed for hell. That grieves me desperately. It doesn't make

650
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:52.440
<v Speaker 1>you my enemy, It makes you somebody who I long

651
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:55.880
<v Speaker 1>to be my brother or my sister. Because, as we

652
00:32:55.880 --> 00:32:58.599
<v Speaker 1>were saying, you either, according to Christianity, you either get

653
00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:01.880
<v Speaker 1>what you pay for, which is hell, or you get

654
00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:04.640
<v Speaker 1>what Jesus paid for, which is ever lasting life with him.

655
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:05.880
<v Speaker 2>You are more planned than me.

656
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:09.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, this is the thing that I don't I don't

657
00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:16.599
<v Speaker 1>know in our sort of modern world where people are understandably,

658
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:20.720
<v Speaker 1>like very easily offended. I don't know that the most

659
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:22.880
<v Speaker 1>helpful thing we can do is sort of pull back

660
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:26.599
<v Speaker 1>from the offense of the Gospel. I would sometimes want

661
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:29.119
<v Speaker 1>to even point people to, like, the most offensive thing

662
00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:31.319
<v Speaker 1>that Christians believe is that if you if you are

663
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:33.920
<v Speaker 1>apart from Christ, you are headed for hell. Like that's

664
00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:37.440
<v Speaker 1>far more offensive than anything we believe about sexual ethics.

665
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:42.200
<v Speaker 1>So let's let's have that conversation because it's the most

666
00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:45.440
<v Speaker 1>desperately important thing, and let's do it with a a

667
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:49.680
<v Speaker 1>posture of love, because that's exactly what the Bible calls

668
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:49.960
<v Speaker 1>us to.

669
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:52.920
<v Speaker 2>In a situation I was in, I think they understood

670
00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:55.759
<v Speaker 2>the offense of the Gospel because they merely said, you're

671
00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:59.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, about hell, So I think they did have

672
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:02.680
<v Speaker 2>that I was trying to was the gospel's offensive end

673
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:04.559
<v Speaker 2>of its own. I was trying to say, that doesn't

674
00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:07.799
<v Speaker 2>make me someone who doesn't love you, And I think

675
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:09.840
<v Speaker 2>it was trying to actually embody that and say that.

676
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:12.400
<v Speaker 2>I think there's different ways to do that. Sometimes it's

677
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:14.119
<v Speaker 2>with words, you got to be very blunt. Sometimes I

678
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:17.000
<v Speaker 2>think it's letting the God get out of the way

679
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:18.079
<v Speaker 2>of the Gospel's offense.

680
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:18.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

681
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:21.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but by showing them that's not something can be

682
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:24.119
<v Speaker 2>offensive and loving at the same time, as you pointed

683
00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:24.679
<v Speaker 2>out already.

684
00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:28.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I think that's right. Last question, what is

685
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:32.119
<v Speaker 1>the most encouraging thing that you've seen in your ministry

686
00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:33.320
<v Speaker 1>in the last six months.

687
00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:36.840
<v Speaker 2>It's encouraging. I've been We've been talking a lot in

688
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.400
<v Speaker 2>our in our context to the people in my church

689
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:45.280
<v Speaker 2>to focus on being curious if this is really true

690
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:47.400
<v Speaker 2>in your life. The biggest problem with a lot of

691
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:50.320
<v Speaker 2>New Yorkers is time. Time is a currency. They don't

692
00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:51.719
<v Speaker 2>have enough of it, and so they're always feel like,

693
00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:53.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't have enough time. And I think they also

694
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:56.320
<v Speaker 2>think that they're experts in their field, so they have

695
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:58.199
<v Speaker 2>to be an expert in Christianity to be able to

696
00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:01.320
<v Speaker 2>talk about their faith. And we've been doing a lot

697
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:05.719
<v Speaker 2>to try to deprogram both those concepts of that you

698
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:07.440
<v Speaker 2>have more time than you think because it's what you

699
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:10.440
<v Speaker 2>put your time to, and you're not saved by your

700
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:13.599
<v Speaker 2>expert understanding of gospels, so it's not up to your

701
00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:17.719
<v Speaker 2>expert ability to tell other people, and instead it's just

702
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:20.280
<v Speaker 2>about being curious and try to instill curiosity with our

703
00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:23.920
<v Speaker 2>in your own lives to others instead of just sort

704
00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:25.960
<v Speaker 2>of hunkering down. And I got to protect myself and

705
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:29.000
<v Speaker 2>protect my time. So it's been I've been encouraged by

706
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:32.320
<v Speaker 2>seeing people just a lot of are Kinagans saying you know,

707
00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:35.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm just and being curious is an interesting posture, and

708
00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:38.079
<v Speaker 2>say you're not setting out to go to your neighbor

709
00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:41.119
<v Speaker 2>or anybody else to you know, I'm going to win

710
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:42.719
<v Speaker 2>them for one way or the other, saying I just

711
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:44.639
<v Speaker 2>want to care about you and like what do you need?

712
00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:46.760
<v Speaker 2>What are you about? And start with these kind of

713
00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:51.079
<v Speaker 2>conversations and just be present in people's lives because they

714
00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:54.559
<v Speaker 2>feel convicted and they care about their neighbor and their

715
00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:56.360
<v Speaker 2>people around them. And it's been fun to see and

716
00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:59.519
<v Speaker 2>very warming. I'm like, oh, you actually are doing this,

717
00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:02.800
<v Speaker 2>this is something that's possible. I think they feel free

718
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:04.760
<v Speaker 2>from feeling like they have to have all the answers.

719
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:05.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

720
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:08.760
<v Speaker 2>One of the things I like to say is Jesus

721
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:12.159
<v Speaker 2>made postles from fishermen because it wasn't about being a

722
00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:15.800
<v Speaker 2>scholar or an academic or have all the answers. Just

723
00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:18.239
<v Speaker 2>like the thief on the Cross, you know you're not

724
00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:21.199
<v Speaker 2>here because you understand your perfect views, your perfect view

725
00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:25.440
<v Speaker 2>of justification or your perfect view of understanding what christian

726
00:36:25.480 --> 00:36:27.920
<v Speaker 2>is really a value here because you know Jesus died

727
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:31.159
<v Speaker 2>for me and that's enough. And that's been very encouraging

728
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:34.199
<v Speaker 2>to see hearts for that in a space like New York,

729
00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:37.920
<v Speaker 2>to where time and expertise gets in the way that

730
00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:42.000
<v Speaker 2>they kind of are moving people's lives. And I'm excited

731
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:43.000
<v Speaker 2>to see how it keeps going.

732
00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:47.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, thanks so much Michael for joining me. You

733
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:50.079
<v Speaker 1>guys have been listening to the Confronting Christianity podcast. You

734
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:53.920
<v Speaker 1>can find us on Twitter, slash x, and on Instagram.

735
00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:56.880
<v Speaker 1>You could leave a review on iTunes and maybe note

736
00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:59.880
<v Speaker 1>there a question or topic you'd like to see explored

737
00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:02.159
<v Speaker 1>it in the future episode. And until next time I

738
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:06.039
<v Speaker 1>speak into your earphones the whatever city or town or

739
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:08.840
<v Speaker 1>village that you're living in, that you will show the

740
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:10.880
<v Speaker 1>kind of curiosity for those around you that Michael's been

741
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:15.320
<v Speaker 1>talking about and look for opportunities if you are a

742
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.199
<v Speaker 1>follow of Jesus to point other people to him, and

743
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:20.280
<v Speaker 1>if you are not, then maybe find a Christian who

744
00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:23.400
<v Speaker 1>lives near you and ask them what is Christianity about?

745
00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:26.880
<v Speaker 1>Why do you believe in Jesus And help me to

746
00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:27.440
<v Speaker 1>understand