Speaker 1: You are listening to the Confronting Christianity podcast, and I'm
Speaker 1: here with my friend Michael Keller. Michael grew up in
Speaker 1: New York City, attending public school for both elementary and
Speaker 1: middle school. I love that as somebody who has kids
Speaker 1: in both elementary and middle and high school public schools
Speaker 1: in Cambridge, Massachusetts. He then graduated from Vanderbilt University, majoring
Speaker 1: in history and psychology. He worked at London City Mission,
Speaker 1: again in my hometown. I relate and enjoy that, and
Speaker 1: New Life Fellowship in Queen's before he attended Gordon Conwell
Speaker 1: Theological Seminary just north of the where I am in Cambridge.
Speaker 1: I love how I'm making your buyer all about me, Michael,
Speaker 1: where he received both an MDV and a THHM in apologetics.
Speaker 1: Michael served as pastor of Community Life at City Life
Speaker 1: Presbyterian Church in Boston before returning to the city by
Speaker 1: which I think you mean New York City. I love
Speaker 1: how New Yorker's just call it the city city. I
Speaker 1: know it's like so arrogant. Anyway, that's another conversation to
Speaker 1: start a new Reformed University fellowship chapter there. Michael also
Speaker 1: received his PhD from the Free University in Amsterdam in
Speaker 1: computational linguistics applied to Jonathan Edward's sermon Corpus. Gosh, we
Speaker 1: could have a whole episode just talking about your bio, Michael,
Speaker 1: that we're not going to. I am going to ask
Speaker 1: you a couple of questions from it, though, because you,
Speaker 1: like me, have spent significant time in London talking to
Speaker 1: Londoners about Jesus. But I think for both of us
Speaker 1: that was several years ago. So i'd love what was
Speaker 1: your favorite conversation that you had when you were working
Speaker 1: at London City Mission.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, well when I was first of all, Rebeerca.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. This is a pleasure to be
Speaker 2: on this podcast with you. It is fun how many
Speaker 2: places our paths, at least culturally have crossed. West Boston, London,
Speaker 2: maybe one day, the city of New.
Speaker 1: York, the city which ought to be Jerusalem quite frankly
Speaker 1: from a Christian perspective, but never mind, can carry.
Speaker 2: On New Heavens and New York. Yeah. When I worked
Speaker 2: with London City mentioned, it's a very it was a
Speaker 2: very different populistan than the people I'm working with in
Speaker 2: New York right now, just from a social economic background,
Speaker 2: It was mostly Bengali Muslims that had come over from
Speaker 2: one little town in Bangladesh, Sallette, and they were living
Speaker 2: in council housing, and a lot of their questions were
Speaker 2: very different questions from on the surface. I think a
Speaker 2: lot of the conversations was it was about what does
Speaker 2: it mean to be you know, human and part of
Speaker 2: the state of you know, a lot of them were
Speaker 2: growing up in London, but what does it mean to
Speaker 2: be Muslim? What does it mean to be me? What
Speaker 2: does it mean? So it was a lot of Actually, interestingly,
Speaker 2: it's a lot of identity questions which I am talking
Speaker 2: about today. So maybe you're right, maybe there's a lot
Speaker 2: of similarities with New York and London anyway, even across
Speaker 2: the socio economic differences.
Speaker 1: Interesting. Well, one of my favorite conversations, only from a
Speaker 1: comedy perspective, to be honest, in London was several decades ago.
Speaker 1: I was walking through Hyde Park, the sort of equivalent
Speaker 1: of Central Park for translating for your New York audiences,
Speaker 1: and an American guy stopped me and he said, can
Speaker 1: I ask you a question? I said yes. He said,
Speaker 1: do you believe in Jesus? I said yes, He said yeah,
Speaker 1: but do you believe that Jesus is your savior? I
Speaker 1: said yes. He said, but do you believe that Jesus
Speaker 1: died on the cross and rose again? So that I
Speaker 1: said yeah. He could not wrap his mind around the
Speaker 1: fact that he had stumbled upon an actual, legitimate Christian
Speaker 1: in the sort of pagan wilds of London. But you know,
Speaker 1: there I was. I appreciated his fervor, but it was
Speaker 1: almost like he was disappointed that I was an actual Christian.
Speaker 2: It was fun As an American. I think a lot
Speaker 2: of people were like, oh, of course you're Christian because
Speaker 2: of America's Christian At least that was the view that
Speaker 2: they had, which of me. So I think it was
Speaker 2: in some ways assumed that I would have these conversations
Speaker 2: with them. So I think that was that was a
Speaker 2: benefit I think was a hindrance in another way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's interesting.
Speaker 1: Actually, you're right. I think a lot of Brits think
Speaker 1: that everyone in America is Christian, and it seems a
Speaker 1: lot of Americans think that nobody in England is. Like
Speaker 1: I know, when my husband moved to from Oklahoma to
Speaker 1: Cambridge in the UK to do his graduate work, he
Speaker 1: very much thought and everyone around and thought like, there
Speaker 1: is absolutely no way you would meet like a Christian
Speaker 1: girl in England, Like there's I mean, it's like all
Speaker 1: possibility of dating on hold until you're back in the
Speaker 1: homeland kind of thing. But it turns out there are.
Speaker 1: There was a band of brothers and sisters in the UK.
Speaker 2: And I grew up in New York, and so being
Speaker 2: a Christian from an orthodox position kind of historic Christianity
Speaker 2: is a rare thing, kind of like the conversation you
Speaker 2: had in Hyde Park. So it was always weird than
Speaker 2: to be assumed you are a Christian because you're from America,
Speaker 2: even though in New York. I'm like, right, wait, there
Speaker 2: are Christians in New York. So it was always I
Speaker 2: think I've always had those kind of funny conversations.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So on that note, I know, you know, several
Speaker 1: decades ago, your dad, Tim Keller, moved to New York
Speaker 1: and planted a church there and had the audacity to
Speaker 1: think that modern New Yorkers could actually take serious Christianity seriously.
Speaker 1: I don't know why I use the word serious twice,
Speaker 1: Like a kind of Bible believing gospel centered in some
Speaker 1: ways quite kind of uncompromising understanding of who Jesus is
Speaker 1: and what his claims are on us today, that modern
Speaker 1: New Yorkers could actually take that seriously rather than needing
Speaker 1: to have some sort of special accommodation to their cultural
Speaker 1: cultural values. And you know, famously, to everyone's surprise, that
Speaker 1: that hope turned out to be true, that there were
Speaker 1: many people who turned out to be open to hearing
Speaker 1: the gospel of Jesus, repenting and believing. And I know
Speaker 1: that you're someone who not only grew up in Manhattan,
Speaker 1: but has for a number of years now been witnessing
Speaker 1: to the truth of the Christian message in various forms
Speaker 1: and currently kind of pastoring a church in Manhattan. And
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear your thoughts on today's kind of
Speaker 1: cultural moment to kind of phrase and what kinds of
Speaker 1: conversations you're having with skeptical new Yorkers or seeking new Yorkers,
Speaker 1: all those who wouldn't yet identify it themselves as Christians.
Speaker 1: But whether there is a openness today or whether that
Speaker 1: window is sort of closed, I guess in the last
Speaker 1: couple of decades.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. And you know, growing up
Speaker 2: in the city from the eighties and nineties, it's one
Speaker 2: thing to kind of live it and then not necessarily
Speaker 2: minister in the sense of your child. You're just sort
Speaker 2: of swimming in these sort of spaces versus and coming
Speaker 2: now being a pastor of a church for seven years after,
Speaker 2: you know, being in other places. My sense is that
Speaker 2: what was different and unique was back in the eighties
Speaker 2: and nineties when Redeemer was started. I think my father
Speaker 2: did a good job of trying to do a translation,
Speaker 2: trying to translate the Gospel into concepts and forms that
Speaker 2: people could understand. Sin is idolatry. You say sin is,
Speaker 2: you know, breaking God's law. Most New Yorkers than and
Speaker 2: today it's like, well what does that mean? Because they
Speaker 2: don't even know. If you say sin is is taking
Speaker 2: something and making it too important, a good thing into
Speaker 2: an ultimate thing. New Yorkers were like, oh, I understand
Speaker 2: that there's a translation thing. It was very cognitive. But
Speaker 2: then again, I think New York was very cognitive or
Speaker 2: more so what I'm finding different this now it's two levels.
Speaker 2: On one level, I think people are more post christian.
Speaker 2: I think before people had the British view that all
Speaker 2: Americans are Christians, I think Christianity was much more cultural
Speaker 2: even in New York people had an understanding of it
Speaker 2: in the eighties and nineties. I think what's different now
Speaker 2: is where I'm seeing more and more people who are like,
Speaker 2: what's Christianity? What do you mean by God? There's completely
Speaker 2: a blank slate. And that's both the opportunity and it's
Speaker 2: a challenge in its own right because level there's no
Speaker 2: negative I have all these negative views of you because
Speaker 2: I've never met a Christian, You're kind of an alien.
Speaker 2: On the other side, positively, it's like, well, you don't
Speaker 2: have to kind of do the backwards sort of apologetics
Speaker 2: of here are the answers to all the bad versions
Speaker 2: of Christianity that you've seen. The other thing I've just
Speaker 2: seen is people are just less intellectually needing the kind
Speaker 2: of logical arguments for the reason for God or the
Speaker 2: problem of evil and suffering. Just they still care and people,
Speaker 2: and it resonates with folks, but it's not the thing
Speaker 2: that they lead with as much anymore. Is my sense, what.
Speaker 1: Would you say now is the lead question or issue?
Speaker 2: That's simple? It used to be is God? Is Christianity
Speaker 2: really and true? Now it's is Christianity good?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: It does? It is it is it does Does it
Speaker 2: work New Yorkers? I don't know if it's the same
Speaker 2: thing in Boston. I feel like Boston's very my sense
Speaker 2: there college influence, there's a lot of heading knowledge here.
Speaker 2: It's like does it work?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I think my dad one time said the ideas are
Speaker 2: brought up in Boston, they're put in practice in New York,
Speaker 2: they're subscribed to law in Washington, and they're made into
Speaker 2: stories in LA and then kind of like there's just
Speaker 2: like cycle kind of going around. But yeah, I think
Speaker 2: people care about it. Does it work?
Speaker 1: That's interesting? Yeah. I had a friend who lived for
Speaker 1: many years in New York City and then moved to Boston,
Speaker 1: and she said, in New York, when you meet somebody,
Speaker 1: you ask where do you live, and then you can
Speaker 1: figure out how much they earn from where they live.
Speaker 1: And that's like the currency is literal currency, and you know,
Speaker 1: how much do you earn? Is the way that you
Speaker 1: are going to be categorized and sort of your status
Speaker 1: will be evaluated. In Boston, no one really cares how
Speaker 1: much money you make. They care like where do you
Speaker 1: go to school? Like what do you like? What is
Speaker 1: your academic background? That's much more the currency, and so yeah,
Speaker 1: even a relatively short distance that we can travel from
Speaker 1: here to there. Also, I think in your people care
Speaker 1: about what you're wearing. In ways Boston, you can be
Speaker 1: completely shabby, which thank god, because I'm utterly shabby, and
Speaker 1: Boston smiles fairly shabby.
Speaker 2: I'm fairly shabby too. It's true. You're not wrong though
Speaker 2: about the way it comes out of New York is
Speaker 2: what do you do? Is the one of the first
Speaker 2: you know, mind, what's your name, Michael? What do you do?
Speaker 2: And that's another way that they can find out in
Speaker 2: the social stratosphere.
Speaker 1: So then when you say I'm a pastor, how do
Speaker 1: people respond to that? How awkward? Is that?
Speaker 2: One of three ways? Either check, please get me out
Speaker 2: of the door, where's the closest exit? Two the second reason,
Speaker 2: the second thing they say is they go straight into oh,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm spiritual too, and they go into a straight
Speaker 2: view of their own spirituality. Or three they ask questions
Speaker 2: are like I don't understand, Like my kids are in school,
Speaker 2: I go to the school functions, they you know, what
Speaker 2: are you lawyer, doctor, pastor? Pastor? What? Why you know?
Speaker 2: So you get those kind of questions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, One of the things that I noticed in Boston,
Speaker 1: which I think is I don't know that it's new new,
Speaker 1: but it's certainly much more prominent now than it was
Speaker 1: even sort of five or ten years ago, is that
Speaker 1: a lot of people who are not Christians or involved
Speaker 1: in any other sort of traditional religion are reaching for
Speaker 1: more sort of pagan spiritual practices, you know. And it's
Speaker 1: everything from kind of tarot cards to participating in sort
Speaker 1: of pagan rituals essentially derived from various different sort of
Speaker 1: tribal gods, etc. That there's a lot of a lot,
Speaker 1: like I don't know, ten years ago, I'd hear spiritual
Speaker 1: but not religious, and I'd be like, oh, yeah, so
Speaker 1: you know, you're kind of maybe into yoga and meditation
Speaker 1: and you like feel one with the world sort of
Speaker 1: spiritual but not Oh no, I just recently like drank
Speaker 1: a potion and tried to have a vision of a
Speaker 1: particular kind of goddess. But now now it's actually much
Speaker 1: more pretty in apps, Yeah, pagan practices. Is that is
Speaker 1: that going down in New York?
Speaker 2: Or is that less not? I mean it might be
Speaker 2: in New York. There's so many spaces I don't pretend
Speaker 2: like I know every space of New York, and in
Speaker 2: my area of New York and Manhattan, I think there's
Speaker 2: a lot of successful people who have kind of won
Speaker 2: the lottery of going to a great school and kind
Speaker 2: of getting a great job. And I think there's probably
Speaker 2: still more of a skepticism when it comes to that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. So I think that I just haven't
Speaker 2: heard about it because I don't think they do it.
Speaker 2: I think so I think more like what it used
Speaker 2: to be interesting.
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's partly a generational divide as well,
Speaker 1: because this is predominantly sort of gen Z folks that
Speaker 1: I'm hearing this from. Not to presume that you're talking
Speaker 1: with with all the people, but you know, people who
Speaker 1: are maybe more established in their careers, perhaps a less
Speaker 1: into all the pagan stuff. But maybe it's maybe it's
Speaker 1: just Boston as a hot house of pagan spirituality. Michael,
Speaker 1: As you talk with people about the historic Christian faith
Speaker 1: and he's you said to explained to them, you know,
Speaker 1: when they say, like, what's Christianity? What does that conversation
Speaker 1: look like for you? And do you feel like there's
Speaker 1: any sort of receptivity among those you're talking to or
Speaker 1: are you just like talking to hardened wolves down there
Speaker 1: in New York as it you're feeling kind of encouraged
Speaker 1: or discouraged or blend.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's again, I think there's just there's different
Speaker 2: types of folks. I think most are I mean, in general,
Speaker 2: there's more opportunities. I've seen here from a blank slate.
Speaker 2: I'd never heard of Christianity before. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: folks who have grown up, they've tried religion. They've tried
Speaker 2: they grew up in a Christian home, or they grew
Speaker 2: up in a religious home, and they've fallen away from it,
Speaker 2: and then they've become successful, and there's just this still
Speaker 2: hunger and need. I remember one time visiting a friend
Speaker 2: in Hawaii and it was kind of paradise, saying it
Speaker 2: was great. I said, how do you do ministry out here?
Speaker 2: He's a pastor out in Hawaii. And he goes, oh,
Speaker 2: it's actually easy that you come out here is paradise,
Speaker 2: and you're you're still sad and upset, And I said,
Speaker 2: but then there's then I realized there's actually a parallel
Speaker 2: in New York. Like you can be successful, you can
Speaker 2: be on Wall Street, you can have these things, and
Speaker 2: then you're kind of like, wait, is this it? And
Speaker 2: there's sort of there's a cliche about it, But I
Speaker 2: think there's also a real space where people do wrestle
Speaker 2: with like there's got to be more. What else is there?
Speaker 2: What do I do with this? So I do think
Speaker 2: that there's a lot of great questions like that, and
Speaker 2: people just teasing out questions and helping them discover it
Speaker 2: more instead of giving them the straight up arguments for
Speaker 2: here's why you should believe kind of more going, hey,
Speaker 2: you have a good thing here. It's good to care
Speaker 2: about your job, it's good to do these things. But
Speaker 2: here is where it's very Augustinian, right. Your problem isn't
Speaker 2: that you have these desires and stuff. It's it's that
Speaker 2: your desires are out of order. And let's talk about
Speaker 2: the order of your desires. And that tends to resonate
Speaker 2: with a lot of a lot of folks so.
Speaker 1: Much a you're talking to me, and I'll I you know,
Speaker 1: I will someone living down the street from you, and
Speaker 1: I'm the kind of person who doesn't have much spiritual
Speaker 1: background and is literally saying to you, like what is Christianity?
Speaker 1: Like I have no idea, tell me what do you believe?
Speaker 1: What would you What would you say to me if
Speaker 1: I were a New Yorker?
Speaker 2: Well, one of my favorite ways of doing it, and
Speaker 2: I still do because I did it. I was walking
Speaker 2: with a friend in my building a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 2: and he knows this person is a pastor, and you know,
Speaker 2: he said, give me your best shot. You never we
Speaker 2: never talked about your your stuff. Give me your best shot,
Speaker 2: as if like I had like some sort of pitch right,
Speaker 2: And I find it more helpful to ask questions. I said, well,
Speaker 2: why don't you tell me what you think I believe?
Speaker 2: And I would love you. I think that'd be more fun.
Speaker 2: What do you think I believe? And he would make
Speaker 2: a list in it and then he'd say what do
Speaker 2: you think? I said, I don't believe that stuff really either,
Speaker 2: and he's like, really, well, what do you believe? And
Speaker 2: it ends up having a conversation like that, But I
Speaker 2: guess so would I basically try to get to When
Speaker 2: we get to those kind of conversations, I say, well,
Speaker 2: I think the experiences I have show me that there
Speaker 2: needs to be more to this world than just you
Speaker 2: come from nothing, you go to nothing, and there's something
Speaker 2: in between. It doesn't make sense to me, and in
Speaker 2: my experiences does it make sense to you? And they go, no,
Speaker 2: it doesn't make I mean no, I think we're all
Speaker 2: in this world trying to figure it out. And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 2: that sounds nice. But then if you really get to it,
Speaker 2: can you really base your life off of that? I
Speaker 2: don't think you do. I think you're hoping that there's
Speaker 2: more to it, and they're like, well, yeah, but how
Speaker 2: can we possibly know? And so they ends up being
Speaker 2: those kind of conversations. But I start with you tell
Speaker 2: me what you think I believe, and then we get
Speaker 2: to kind of go after the misunderstandings, and then we
Speaker 2: kind of get to, well, what actually explains the world?
Speaker 2: What story actually explains the world the best in our experiences,
Speaker 2: and we kind of just pick we get through it,
Speaker 2: and sometimes we get to here's what Christian actually says,
Speaker 2: and it's really beautiful.
Speaker 1: And how would you explain that? So I said, okay,
Speaker 1: well tell me what is the story that you find
Speaker 1: so compelling?
Speaker 2: I mean, the way I was met myself in college
Speaker 2: it tends to be still the place where I go,
Speaker 2: which is everything in my experience, is you are what
Speaker 2: you do. It's kind of like the there's a I
Speaker 2: think Batman begins. There's the older Batman series. There's this
Speaker 2: scene where Bruce Wayne's talking and he's like, you are
Speaker 2: what you do, And I think that that's the essence
Speaker 2: of sort of our humanity, whether it's what I produce
Speaker 2: or my friendships or my money, or you are what
Speaker 2: you do, and everything I've seen in my experiences, that's
Speaker 2: not going to be enough. And instead of having to
Speaker 2: kind of earn your identity of what you are what
Speaker 2: you do, every religion says that it's here are the precepts,
Speaker 2: here's what's right, here's what's wrong. Do these things and
Speaker 2: then you're in. And there's a secular version of that too,
Speaker 2: which is get the right amount of money. I fine,
Speaker 2: get into the right schools, do this. It's still what
Speaker 2: you do. And and the only faith I've ever come
Speaker 2: across that's the unique and different from that, it's Christiane
Speaker 2: that says, yeah, these are good things. There are ten commandments,
Speaker 2: there are things you should do, but you're never going
Speaker 2: to do them well or perfect. But there was one
Speaker 2: who did, and he hands that to you because he
Speaker 2: loves you that much. And I say, I tell people,
Speaker 2: I said, give me the paradigm that doesn't that lets
Speaker 2: you be fully accepted and fully known despite not having
Speaker 2: all put together. And usually then the comes up, this
Speaker 2: is too good to be true in this whole other conversation.
Speaker 2: But I show you uniqueness of how Christianity is outside
Speaker 2: the paradigm of every other human experience that we have.
Speaker 1: I was talking to a young women the other day
Speaker 1: who comes from an Indian background, and I've just given
Speaker 1: a talk where I was slightly absurdly the group who
Speaker 1: I was speaking for it told me that they wanted
Speaker 1: to me to address how can you say there's anyone
Speaker 1: true faith? How can a love and God allow suffering?
Speaker 1: And how can a love and God send people to hell?
Speaker 1: So you know all about in twenty minutes please kind
Speaker 1: of thing. And then we did a Q and A
Speaker 1: and this young woman came up to me afterwards, and
Speaker 1: she from her background, she said, do you believe in
Speaker 1: karma like the Christians believe in karma? And my first
Speaker 1: answer was, well, no, we actually believe that we are
Speaker 1: given Jesus's righteousness, Like actually, I can't sort of earn
Speaker 1: my way to God. It's not a case of me
Speaker 1: sort of building up good karma and finding myself, you know,
Speaker 1: somehow sort of spiritually acceptable that actually I've completely failed
Speaker 1: and only Jesus' death on the cross can can pay
Speaker 1: for my sin and give me his righteousness. But then
Speaker 1: I sort of said, well, let's put that in karma terms.
Speaker 1: It's like Jesus took all of my bad karma and
Speaker 1: gave me all of his good karma. Like I mean, again,
Speaker 1: I don't sort of fully understand the system of karma
Speaker 1: as I should, but that it's like a radical difference
Speaker 1: from any belief system that depends on us sort of
Speaker 1: working our way up the spiritual sort of hierarchy or
Speaker 1: accruing enough good works to be to be pleasing to God.
Speaker 1: That it sort of cuts that cuts. Then hees out
Speaker 1: from under us if we think that we can do that,
Speaker 1: and reassures us if we know that we can't, because
Speaker 1: actually Jesus has done it all for us. You've mentioned
Speaker 1: that you're your dad did a good job of sort
Speaker 1: of translating the Gospel into the terms of the culture
Speaker 1: that he saw around him in New York in the
Speaker 1: eighties and nineties, early two thousands, et cetera. What would
Speaker 1: you say, is the main or would have been some
Speaker 1: sort of frameworks for translation that you found helpful in
Speaker 1: the Year of Our Lord twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, by the way, do you remember
Speaker 2: that maybe you don't. You should know because.
Speaker 1: There are lots of things I should know that I don't.
Speaker 2: Well, you too, Bye Bono. He's from He's from Ireland, right,
Speaker 2: So that's all everything is, that's all that's British. I'm juious,
Speaker 2: well an American. Indeed, I know it's that true. I
Speaker 2: know it's that true.
Speaker 1: My husband's a big You two fan, so I might
Speaker 1: know something about Bono.
Speaker 2: He's got this great quote. I'm gonna butcher it. But
Speaker 2: it's about karma and he he he basically says, I
Speaker 2: believe in karma. Now he's he says he's a Christian. Well,
Speaker 2: how so he's in an interview process. It's Google Bono
Speaker 2: and Karma and it's something along the lines of, well,
Speaker 2: karma is you know you do something wrong, you you
Speaker 2: get that eventually it's coming for you. And he's like,
Speaker 2: if I'm if karma's real, then I'm I'm I'm you know,
Speaker 2: I'm in trouble here, but I believe grace breaks through
Speaker 2: that the you know, the karma world that we all
Speaker 2: kind of live in, and rescues me. And I think
Speaker 2: it's it's a beautiful quote, but basically it resonates with
Speaker 2: what the way you kind of put that, that's why
Speaker 2: you said, what do we live in? Karma? No? But
Speaker 2: but kind of yeah, in the sense of if the
Speaker 2: world is like you get what you pay for, you know, money,
Speaker 2: then are we doing enough? And I think there's that's
Speaker 2: a whole other conversation, but we're in trouble if if
Speaker 2: it's up to what we put if are we putting
Speaker 2: enough in to get what we should get out?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean I guess for Christians, you either get
Speaker 1: what you pay for or you got what Jesus paid for,
Speaker 1: And it's up to you whether you want to take
Speaker 1: Jesus's payment or whether you want to pay the price
Speaker 1: for your sin yourself.
Speaker 2: I often think the difference Christian non Christian is not necessarily there.
Speaker 2: A lot of it is just realizing what I'm actually
Speaker 2: doing is not enough and I need someone else's payment
Speaker 2: system because what I'm doing, as good as it is.
Speaker 2: I was preaching the other day and I said, I
Speaker 2: was talking about I've been married for twenty two years,
Speaker 2: and there's been times when I've repented to my wife
Speaker 2: and I said, I'm really sorry that I'd messed up
Speaker 2: in this area. But then part of my heart goes, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm the kind of you know, I'm a pastor. I'm
Speaker 2: the kind of guy who feels good. Yeah, I repent.
Speaker 2: I'm a kind of guy who can do that. But
Speaker 2: then you start feeling good about how much you repent,
Speaker 2: then it's about you. So you start prioritizing yourself and
Speaker 2: centering yourself, which then twists the good thing and making
Speaker 2: it about you, which is then not good at all.
Speaker 2: So is that enough? Like? And I think that's the
Speaker 2: the root of the issue of are we pain enough?
Speaker 2: To your question about the what is twenty twenty four need?
Speaker 2: I think, in a nutshell, what I'm seeing in New
Speaker 2: York is a world that is being slowly pulled apart
Speaker 2: back into tribal systems, whether it's political or racial or
Speaker 2: socio economic. And I think there's reasons for that. For
Speaker 2: power that I think people are doing it. It's also easier,
Speaker 2: it's also more comfortable. It's also safer. And I think
Speaker 2: when it comes to translation of the Gospel. I think
Speaker 2: Christianity kind of has a lot to say in those
Speaker 2: kind of spaces that we're being pulled into these different
Speaker 2: places and not able to talk past each other. I
Speaker 2: think Christianity offers a way to do forgiveness and repentance
Speaker 2: where you own I messed up, instead of cancelation where
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna you're done and out. It lets us
Speaker 2: be able to kind of call evil and sen what
Speaker 2: it is, but then assibly create a path for reconciliation
Speaker 2: potentially and getting back into relationship that I think is powerful.
Speaker 2: So I think that's something that is unique for twenty
Speaker 2: twenty four that I don't think we think enough on.
Speaker 2: It's just that's just one of the things is how
Speaker 2: are we in a space were being pulled apart ever
Speaker 2: going to be able to come together again in any
Speaker 2: kind of meaningful way. And I think forgiveness and repentance
Speaker 2: has got to be the way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I also often reflect
Speaker 1: on the fact that I meet people through my church
Speaker 1: who I would never meet in other cons like if
Speaker 1: I were not a Christian, I would not be in
Speaker 1: relationship with these with these people for whatever whatever reason,
Speaker 1: And that actually, sort of ironically, many in our sort
Speaker 1: of modern Western world who think they believe deeply in
Speaker 1: diversity and that that's a very high kind of value
Speaker 1: for them, in actual fact operate in profoundly non diverse
Speaker 1: sort of segments of society, or segments that are only
Speaker 1: very limited in terms of the diversity that they offer.
Speaker 1: I had a friend who previously had identified as a
Speaker 1: Christian and then many years ago sort of walked away
Speaker 1: from faith. And one of the things that she commented
Speaker 1: that she missed sort of ten years later where she
Speaker 1: was like, now, like, I only associate with people who
Speaker 1: are basically rich like me, Like, I don't have any
Speaker 1: I have no connection with anybody outside of my sort
Speaker 1: of economic bubble. You know, my kids are in private schools.
Speaker 1: My work life is only with people who are highly
Speaker 1: educated and very sort of prosperous. I have no you know,
Speaker 1: I can maybe sort of give charitably if I want it,
Speaker 1: but like or say hi to a homeless person on
Speaker 1: the street, but there's no kind of framework in my
Speaker 1: life and meaningful relationships with people who are actually different
Speaker 1: from me. And I thought that was just striking because
Speaker 1: I take for granted that I rub shoulders and spend
Speaker 1: time with and have you know, at my house for
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving people with a whole range of different socioeconomic backgrounds.
Speaker 1: And you know we are that kind of diverse background
Speaker 1: as well. But like you know, age range, everything, and
Speaker 1: it's all because of church.
Speaker 2: Actually back, let me ask you a question. In our
Speaker 2: my circles, maybe the same in Boston, there's a high
Speaker 2: value of Hey, no, diversity is a good thing, and
Speaker 2: we need to we need to come across lines and
Speaker 2: we need each other. You see things I don't see
Speaker 2: a lot of my secular friends have that value. We
Speaker 2: do as Christians and stuff. But is do you see
Speaker 2: a difference in the Christian version of how we get
Speaker 2: there and why we you know, like you said, in
Speaker 2: a church space, you you're getting to come together people
Speaker 2: we wouldn't normally. What's the difference between the secular value
Speaker 2: of we should? There's something implicitly they get that we're
Speaker 2: supposed to do this versus the Christian version which see
Speaker 2: on the surface looks the same or they are they
Speaker 2: different at all? Or or how you get there?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think in many ways that sort of modern
Speaker 1: seemingly secular values are actually Christian values that have been
Speaker 1: sort of repackaged. So in fact, you know, if we
Speaker 1: ask ourselves, why do we believe in diversity, Why do
Speaker 1: we think that love across or ethnic differences is good?
Speaker 1: Why do we think that we should care for the
Speaker 1: poor and the weak and the marginalized? Like, all of
Speaker 1: these things have actually come to us from Christianity. And
Speaker 1: that's despite the history of Christian sin that you could
Speaker 1: point to, and you know, in the history of the US,
Speaker 1: et cetera. So I think that the fact that there
Speaker 1: is overlap there is because actually Jesus started this extraordinarily.
Speaker 1: I mean, Christianity is by any measure, the greatest movement
Speaker 1: for diversity in all of history. But I think, whereas
Speaker 1: you know, many of my friends with a similar kind
Speaker 1: of educational background who value diversity in some senses, actually
Speaker 1: in their day to day lives aren't experiencing it, or
Speaker 1: at least only in very sort of limited form. So
Speaker 1: you might have the diversity of people with different sort
Speaker 1: of sexual identities, et cetera. But perhaps and people have
Speaker 1: different racial backgrounds, but not like different education levels, for instance.
Speaker 1: I actually think that's often a much harder kind of
Speaker 1: barrier to cut across than some others and one of
Speaker 1: the things that I yeah experience in church is just
Speaker 1: like ongoing fellowship with people who are completely different from me,
Speaker 1: and the only thing that unites us is Jesus. And
Speaker 1: that's that's okay, Like that was true from the very
Speaker 1: beginnings of the church. And I was just writing this
Speaker 1: morning about when Paul says in his letter to the
Speaker 1: Christians in Galatia, in here there is neither jee nor Greek,
Speaker 1: male or female stave, nor free for Christ's all and
Speaker 1: is all in all? Or is it for you all
Speaker 1: one in Christ Jesus. I know there's the verse in Galatians,
Speaker 1: and there's a verse in Clausions where he's there's something
Speaker 1: very similar, and I may have mixed those two together,
Speaker 1: so apologies for those more astute than I am. But
Speaker 1: this sense of actually our unity in Christ across all
Speaker 1: sorts of differences is deep and profound and relativizes every
Speaker 1: other kind of difference. And I don't think it makes
Speaker 1: it easy. I think I think the experience of church should,
Speaker 1: in meaningful ways be work, because if I'm going to
Speaker 1: build actual relationships with people who don't have the exact
Speaker 1: same background that I do, it's going to be harder
Speaker 1: work to find things that we discuss, some things we
Speaker 1: connect on. But it's a really it's a work that's
Speaker 1: it's like getting to know your family. And it means
Speaker 1: that you can have many for relationships across generations and
Speaker 1: across political differences, across socio economic divides, across educational differences,
Speaker 1: because you have in common the fact that you all
Speaker 1: worship the same first entry, a Jewish man who died
Speaker 1: on across you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you make a very good point. It
Speaker 2: matters what happens when the rubber meets to row, Like
Speaker 2: what happens when it's easy to say we have the
Speaker 2: same value. You know, diversity is good, But what happens
Speaker 2: when there's conflict. I remember I met someone and they
Speaker 2: found out as a pastor, and their first phrase to
Speaker 2: me was, oh, you must hate me then, and I
Speaker 2: was like what what? And they're like, well, you don't
Speaker 2: you think I'm going to hell? And because I don't
Speaker 2: believe in what you believe? And I said, well, well
Speaker 2: hold on, I don't. I don't get to decide who
Speaker 2: gets to go to heaven or hell. And that's the
Speaker 2: whole point of God that they say, well, my value
Speaker 2: is the core of my faith as a man who
Speaker 2: dies for people who don't agree with him, and so
Speaker 2: that's that's the court of my faith. I'm going to
Speaker 2: I would I don't know you, but I would die
Speaker 2: for you because that's who my savior is. And I
Speaker 2: would say, what you know, in your view, why would
Speaker 2: you want to hang out and care about me? You know,
Speaker 2: what's what's letting you be able to enter into my
Speaker 2: world and be with me? I have I know why
Speaker 2: I would enter into your world even though we disagree.
Speaker 2: And it really was jarring for that person. Wasn't the conversation.
Speaker 2: This is over an hour conversation. You're like, it didn't
Speaker 2: start that way, but but basically it was like, Hey,
Speaker 2: you're talking about tolerance. My view of tolerance is I'm
Speaker 2: willing to disagree on this but still love you and
Speaker 2: want to be with you. What's going to allow you
Speaker 2: to love me and be with me even though you
Speaker 2: disagree with me? And they struggled. It was a little
Speaker 2: bit of a struggle for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and as I follow Jesus, it isn't even a butt,
Speaker 1: it's a because I mean, if Jesus tells us to
Speaker 1: love even our enemies, we can't follow Jesus and hate
Speaker 1: our enemies. It's just not on the table for us,
Speaker 1: Like it's actually kind of built into the system that
Speaker 1: because we worshiped the one who died for his enemies,
Speaker 1: including us, part of our calling.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it was a weird turn of things because
Speaker 2: they were trying to say I was the one who
Speaker 2: was pushed them away, sitting them holding no, I'm actually
Speaker 2: here to love you and care for you even though
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know where you're I don't
Speaker 2: just say where your heart is and where you're going.
Speaker 2: Then all of a sudden realized, oh, they'rely one's pushing
Speaker 2: back up. They were actually not able to kind of
Speaker 2: accept me for where I am. Basically, I think that's
Speaker 2: another question that I think New Yorkers struggle with, which
Speaker 2: is disagreement does not necessarily mean hate. Yeah, And I
Speaker 2: think there's a lot of that conversation in the culture,
Speaker 2: which is if you disagree, you must hate me, and
Speaker 2: if you don't love me, if you don't accept me.
Speaker 2: So wait a second, I tell my own my own kids,
Speaker 2: I don't accept all of you. I still love you
Speaker 2: because there's things that are not acceptable. That means I
Speaker 2: can disagree with you and still love you, and that
Speaker 2: means it's not hate. And I think those questions are
Speaker 2: very hard for folks of how is it possible to
Speaker 2: be in New York is a great example of lots
Speaker 2: of people who disagree. But how do we then still
Speaker 2: do life together and you know, not be perpetually mad
Speaker 2: at each other?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's interesting that the assumption is I mean
Speaker 1: I would actually in a similar conversation, I think I
Speaker 1: would perhaps be even more blunt to say, if you're
Speaker 1: not following Jesus, I do actually believe that you're going
Speaker 1: to hell, and it would be an act of love
Speaker 1: for me to point you to him. It actually breaks
Speaker 1: my heart, like I take no pleasure whatsoever in somebody
Speaker 1: headed for hell. That grieves me desperately. It doesn't make
Speaker 1: you my enemy, It makes you somebody who I long
Speaker 1: to be my brother or my sister. Because, as we
Speaker 1: were saying, you either, according to Christianity, you either get
Speaker 1: what you pay for, which is hell, or you get
Speaker 1: what Jesus paid for, which is ever lasting life with him.
Speaker 2: You are more planned than me.
Speaker 1: Well, this is the thing that I don't I don't
Speaker 1: know in our sort of modern world where people are understandably,
Speaker 1: like very easily offended. I don't know that the most
Speaker 1: helpful thing we can do is sort of pull back
Speaker 1: from the offense of the Gospel. I would sometimes want
Speaker 1: to even point people to, like, the most offensive thing
Speaker 1: that Christians believe is that if you if you are
Speaker 1: apart from Christ, you are headed for hell. Like that's
Speaker 1: far more offensive than anything we believe about sexual ethics.
Speaker 1: So let's let's have that conversation because it's the most
Speaker 1: desperately important thing, and let's do it with a a
Speaker 1: posture of love, because that's exactly what the Bible calls
Speaker 1: us to.
Speaker 2: In a situation I was in, I think they understood
Speaker 2: the offense of the Gospel because they merely said, you're
Speaker 2: you know, about hell, So I think they did have
Speaker 2: that I was trying to was the gospel's offensive end
Speaker 2: of its own. I was trying to say, that doesn't
Speaker 2: make me someone who doesn't love you, And I think
Speaker 2: it was trying to actually embody that and say that.
Speaker 2: I think there's different ways to do that. Sometimes it's
Speaker 2: with words, you got to be very blunt. Sometimes I
Speaker 2: think it's letting the God get out of the way
Speaker 2: of the Gospel's offense.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but by showing them that's not something can be
Speaker 2: offensive and loving at the same time, as you pointed
Speaker 2: out already.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think that's right. Last question, what is
Speaker 1: the most encouraging thing that you've seen in your ministry
Speaker 1: in the last six months.
Speaker 2: It's encouraging. I've been We've been talking a lot in
Speaker 2: our in our context to the people in my church
Speaker 2: to focus on being curious if this is really true
Speaker 2: in your life. The biggest problem with a lot of
Speaker 2: New Yorkers is time. Time is a currency. They don't
Speaker 2: have enough of it, and so they're always feel like,
Speaker 2: I don't have enough time. And I think they also
Speaker 2: think that they're experts in their field, so they have
Speaker 2: to be an expert in Christianity to be able to
Speaker 2: talk about their faith. And we've been doing a lot
Speaker 2: to try to deprogram both those concepts of that you
Speaker 2: have more time than you think because it's what you
Speaker 2: put your time to, and you're not saved by your
Speaker 2: expert understanding of gospels, so it's not up to your
Speaker 2: expert ability to tell other people, and instead it's just
Speaker 2: about being curious and try to instill curiosity with our
Speaker 2: in your own lives to others instead of just sort
Speaker 2: of hunkering down. And I got to protect myself and
Speaker 2: protect my time. So it's been I've been encouraged by
Speaker 2: seeing people just a lot of are Kinagans saying you know,
Speaker 2: I'm just and being curious is an interesting posture, and
Speaker 2: say you're not setting out to go to your neighbor
Speaker 2: or anybody else to you know, I'm going to win
Speaker 2: them for one way or the other, saying I just
Speaker 2: want to care about you and like what do you need?
Speaker 2: What are you about? And start with these kind of
Speaker 2: conversations and just be present in people's lives because they
Speaker 2: feel convicted and they care about their neighbor and their
Speaker 2: people around them. And it's been fun to see and
Speaker 2: very warming. I'm like, oh, you actually are doing this,
Speaker 2: this is something that's possible. I think they feel free
Speaker 2: from feeling like they have to have all the answers.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: One of the things I like to say is Jesus
Speaker 2: made postles from fishermen because it wasn't about being a
Speaker 2: scholar or an academic or have all the answers. Just
Speaker 2: like the thief on the Cross, you know you're not
Speaker 2: here because you understand your perfect views, your perfect view
Speaker 2: of justification or your perfect view of understanding what christian
Speaker 2: is really a value here because you know Jesus died
Speaker 2: for me and that's enough. And that's been very encouraging
Speaker 2: to see hearts for that in a space like New York,
Speaker 2: to where time and expertise gets in the way that
Speaker 2: they kind of are moving people's lives. And I'm excited
Speaker 2: to see how it keeps going.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thanks so much Michael for joining me. You
Speaker 1: guys have been listening to the Confronting Christianity podcast. You
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter, slash x, and on Instagram.
Speaker 1: You could leave a review on iTunes and maybe note
Speaker 1: there a question or topic you'd like to see explored
Speaker 1: it in the future episode. And until next time I
Speaker 1: speak into your earphones the whatever city or town or
Speaker 1: village that you're living in, that you will show the
Speaker 1: kind of curiosity for those around you that Michael's been
Speaker 1: talking about and look for opportunities if you are a
Speaker 1: follow of Jesus to point other people to him, and
Speaker 1: if you are not, then maybe find a Christian who
Speaker 1: lives near you and ask them what is Christianity about?
Speaker 1: Why do you believe in Jesus And help me to
Speaker 1: understand