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NOPERD is necessary if 49 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:08.879 we were privateed by loss he Terms and Conditions eighteen 50 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:09.919 plus Love. 51 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:23.520 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 52 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:26.639 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 53 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:34.280 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week, 54 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:38.280 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 55 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:42.360 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host 56 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:45.240 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 57 00:02:55.240 --> 00:02:59.680 Good Evening from The New York Times best selling author 58 00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:03.560 of Facing the Scream, The First and Last Days of 59 00:03:03.599 --> 00:03:07.000 the War on Drugs, A radical new way of thinking 60 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:14.199 about depression and anxiety? What really causes depression and anxiety 61 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:18.479 and how can we really solve them? Award winning journalist 62 00:03:18.599 --> 00:03:21.680 Johann Hari suffered from depression since he was a child 63 00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:26.120 and started taking antidepressants when he was a teenager. He 64 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:28.759 was told that his problems were caused by a chemical 65 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:32.800 imbalance in his brain. As an adult trained in the 66 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:36.479 social sciences, he began to investigate whether this was true, 67 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:39.080 and he learned that almost everything we have been told 68 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:44.560 about depression and an anxiety is wrong. Across the world, 69 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:48.520 Harry found social scientists who are uncovering evidence that depression 70 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:52.240 and anxiety are not caused by a chemical imbalance in 71 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:55.599 our brains. In fact, they are largely caused by key 72 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:59.599 problems with the way we live today. Harry's journey took 73 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:02.919 him from from a mind blowing series of experiments in Baltimore, 74 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:07.080 to an Amish community in Indiana to an uprising in Berlin. 75 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:12.000 Once he had uncovered the nine real causes of depression 76 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:17.120 and anxiety, they led him to scientists who were discovering 77 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:21.680 seven very different solutions, ones that work. It is an 78 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:24.199 epic journey that will change how we think about one 79 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:27.959 of the biggest crises in our culture today. His Ted 80 00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:31.199 talk Everything you Think You Know about Addiction Is Wrong 81 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:35.319 has been viewed more than eight million times and revolutionized 82 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:39.879 the global debate. This book will do the same. The 83 00:04:39.879 --> 00:04:44.360 book that we're featuring, the Seething is Lost Connections Uncovering 84 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:48.720 the real causes of depression and the unexpected solutions with 85 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:53.040 my special guest journalist and author Johann Hari. Thank you 86 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:56.079 very much for a Greenness interview and welcome back to 87 00:04:56.120 --> 00:04:57.839 the program. Johann Hari. 88 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:00.439 Hey Dan, it's ready to get to be back with you. 89 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:03.279 And you're still the only radio host who says my 90 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:05.879 name right first time round. That's eternally great. 91 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:10.160 Wow. I'm I'm grateful I can do that because I'm 92 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:15.879 usually butchering people's names. So there we go. Congratulations on 93 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:21.120 this book. This is amazing. Let's get right to this. 94 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:27.480 You talk about being eighteen years old when you first 95 00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:32.199 swallowed your first antidepressant and it was Paxel, and you 96 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:34.959 started this book three years ago. Take us back to 97 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:41.560 that first time and your experience with antidepressants, and then 98 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:45.360 tell us about the impetus for this book, the reason 99 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:50.560 for this book and where you started and three years ago. 100 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:54.399 Yeah, the answer to those questions is really interconnected. 101 00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:54.720 Dan. 102 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:58.000 There were these two mysteries that were hanging over me. 103 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:02.519 The first was ninety years old. Every year I've been 104 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:06.319 alive in Britain, the United States, and Canada, depression and 105 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:11.079 anxiety have increased, and I wanted to understand why, what's 106 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:14.279 going on? Why do so many more people all around 107 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:18.079 us seem to be becoming so distressed? And the second 108 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:21.480 mystery was more personal. When I was a teenager, as 109 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:24.759 you mentioned, I went to my doctor and I explained 110 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:28.399 that I had this feeling like pain was kind of 111 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:32.720 bleeding out of me. I didn't understand it, I didn't 112 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:37.879 I feel quite ashamed of it. I didn't know why 113 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:40.720 this was happening, and my doctor told me a story 114 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:43.959 about why I felt this way. He said, as entirely 115 00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:47.680 biological story. He said, well, we scientists have discovered what 116 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:50.839 causes this kind of will, causes depression. There's a chemical 117 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:54.480 called serotonin in people's brains. Some people are naturally lacking it. 118 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:57.079 You're clearly one of them. And the solution is just 119 00:06:57.160 --> 00:06:58.480 that we need to give you these drugs. So I 120 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:02.160 started taking as you say, packed and I felt an 121 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:05.199 immediate and significant boost, and for several months I felt 122 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:08.759 radically better. But after a while this sense of pain 123 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:11.800 started to kind of bleed back through. So I went 124 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:13.480 back to my doctor. He said, clearly I didn't give 125 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:16.600 you a high enough dose. I started taking a higher dose. Again. 126 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:18.680 I felt better again, I started to feel a lot 127 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:20.480 with side effects, so I started putting on a lot 128 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:23.279 of weight, for example. Again this sense of pain started 129 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:26.120 to bleed back through, and I got a higher dose. 130 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:27.959 And it was kind of in this cycle until I 131 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:30.959 was taking the maximum possible dose for thirteen possible for 132 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:34.040 thirteen years, at the end of which I was still depressed. Right. 133 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:36.560 I had felt some benefits initially, but I was still depressed. 134 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.279 So for my bit lost connections, I really want to 135 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:41.800 go on this journey to understand what's to really solve 136 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:44.560 these two mysteries, what's happening here? Right? So I ended 137 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:47.839 up going traveling, as you say, over forty thousand miles 138 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:50.560 to meet the leading experts in the world about what 139 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:53.160 causes depression and anxiety and what solved them, and to 140 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:55.560 go to places that had very different perspectives on this. 141 00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:58.839 And I think I learned many things for this book 142 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:01.839 but on this but one of the most important to 143 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:04.839 me was I realized that until I went to my 144 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:08.160 doctor when I was a teenager, I thought my depression 145 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:11.759 and anxiety were all in my head, meaning, you know, 146 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:13.839 I was just being weak. I needed to man up, 147 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:17.600 I needed to be tougher, you know, insert whatever stigmatizing 148 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:21.000 cliche you want there. And then for the next thirteen years, 149 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:25.439 I thought depression was all in my head, meaning it 150 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:27.800 was just a kind of chemical imbalance in my brain. 151 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:31.560 But actually, what I learned on this journey is from 152 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:34.639 the leading experts in the world, there are real biological 153 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:36.919 factors that can make you more sensitive to these problems. 154 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:39.200 There are real brain changes, your genes, and so on, 155 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:42.039 which are write about in the book, But actually the 156 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:45.600 main causes of these problems, according to for example, the 157 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:49.120 World Health Organization, the leading medical body in the whole world, 158 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:54.360 are largely not in our heads. They're mostly in specific 159 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:56.960 factors in the way we're living. I learned there are 160 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:00.279 nine causes of depression and anxiety for which there is 161 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:03.440 scientific evidence. Two of them are biological, seven of them 162 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:05.559 are factors in the way we live. And once you 163 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.279 understand that, it leads you to a very different set 164 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:11.240 of solutions, ones that are more effective. 165 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:16.279 Before you did this, though, or a part of this 166 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:19.799 entire process, before you come to the realizations that you 167 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:22.720 do in this book, though, you had to look at 168 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:26.279 the studies from the pharmaceutical companies. You had to look 169 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:31.559 at the importance of Seeble effect, and you looked at 170 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:36.480 someone named Irving Kersh's work and the Emperor's new drugs. 171 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:40.240 So tell us a little bit about this work that 172 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:43.320 he had done and the research that you did into 173 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:45.679 those studies that he did. 174 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:49.639 Yes, So we need to have a more nuanced conversation 175 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:57.120 about chemical ancy depressants, because too often this debate is 176 00:09:57.240 --> 00:10:01.120 framed as either are you fool or against amcal antidepressants, 177 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:04.159 which I think is too simplistic a way of thinking 178 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:06.879 about this. So one of the things that really startled 179 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:10.360 me was to discover that the story I was told 180 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:14.399 that depression is caused by low serotonin in the brain, 181 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:17.840 there was never a time when half of the scientists 182 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:21.840 in the field believed that. Professor Andrew Scarlett, Princeton University 183 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:25.720 says it is deeply misleading and unscientific to say depression 184 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:28.440 is caused by low serotonin in the brain. One of 185 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.639 the leading experts here in Britain, Dr David Healy, said 186 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:35.039 to me, Yeah, you couldn't even call that story discredited 187 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:37.639 because it was never credited. There was never a time 188 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:39.480 when half of the scientists in the field believe it. 189 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:41.840 The reason we were sold that story that it was 190 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:44.679 about low serotonin in the brain is because that was 191 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:47.639 the story that was most popular with drug company prs. 192 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:49.759 That was the story that made it easiest to sell 193 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:51.639 you drugs because what it tells you is, oh, you've 194 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:53.720 just got a natural chemical imbalance in your brain and 195 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:57.519 these drugs are restoring you to a natural state. Right now, 196 00:10:57.559 --> 00:10:59.480 that's not true. That doesn't mean these drugs have no 197 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:03.360 value mentioned Professor Irvin Kersho's the leading expert on this 198 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:08.080 at Harvard Medical School who's done really important research on 199 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:10.519 this question. And there's many things he discovered, but I 200 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:13.759 think the most important is depression is often measured by 201 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:17.279 something called the Hamilton scale. I've always felt really sorry 202 00:11:17.320 --> 00:11:19.279 for whether Hamilton was that we only remember him by 203 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:21.879 measuring how miserable we are. But the habit of scale 204 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:24.000 goes to give you a sense of it from one 205 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:26.879 where you would be dancing around in ecstasy or maybe 206 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:31.080 on ecstasy, to fifty one, where you would be acutely suicidal, 207 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:33.159 and to give you a sense of what movement on 208 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:37.879 the Hamilton scale looks like. If you improve your sleep patterns, 209 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:40.879 you'll generally gain six points on the Hamilton scale. And 210 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:43.519 if your sleep patterns deteriorates to say, you know, you 211 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:46.440 have a kid or something, have a baby, you'll generally 212 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:49.519 lose six points on the Hamilton scale. What Professor kersh 213 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:52.960 fan by looking at the data, so there's a very selective. 214 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:55.559 The way it works is everyone knows what if you 215 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:58.559 take selfies to you know, do your Tinder profile, you 216 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:01.960 you know, you take thirty pictures, you get rid of 217 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:03.320 the twenty nine where you look like you've got a 218 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:06.159 double chin or like you're building or whatever, and then 219 00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:08.799 you use the thirtieth one as your Tinder profile picture. 220 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:12.600 When the original applications were being made for antidepressants to 221 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:16.000 be released and they were applying to the drug regulators, 222 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:19.080 it turned out the drug companies did something very similar. 223 00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:23.639 They basically selectively released the studies. So only the studies 224 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:28.480 which suggested the drugs had a really powerful effectas were released, 225 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:31.799 were published. So we ended up with a quite distorted 226 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:35.320 picture of how well they did. What professor Kershpound is 227 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:39.240 if you look at the data, all the data, not 228 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:41.200 just the stuff that they released to the public. But 229 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:45.519 what he showed is, on average, chemical antidepressants moved people 230 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:48.799 one point eight points on the Hamilton scale. So remember, 231 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:51.759 improving your sleep patterns gives you a six point boost 232 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:54.720 on average, chemical anti depressants give you a one point 233 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:57.240 eight point boost. There's a few things that are important 234 00:12:57.279 --> 00:13:01.159 to stress about that. Firstly, that's an average, so I 235 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:04.720 initially got more over time, I got less. Important to say, 236 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:06.559 there's a debate. Some people think it works better with 237 00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:10.399 people with severe depression, and it's important to say some 238 00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:14.039 scientists think that that Professor Kirsher's figures slightly underestimate it, 239 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:16.360 and that it's more like three points on the Hamilton scale. 240 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:18.879 But once you understand that, what you can see is 241 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:21.600 a few things. Firstly, one point eight points is worth 242 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:24.679 having for some people, right, some people that boost will 243 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:27.919 outweigh the significant side effects, in which case, you know, 244 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.080 I'm glad for them and they should carry on. But 245 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:35.000 you can also see why for most people over time, 246 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:39.000 that boost isn't big enough to solve the problem of 247 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:41.679 their depression and their anxiety. You need more. And one 248 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:44.480 of the people who really helped me to understand one 249 00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:46.080 of the ways we need to think about this differently 250 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:49.639 was a South African psychiatrist called Derek Summerfield, where I 251 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:52.759 went to interview and he explained to me, just by coincidence, 252 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:56.480 Derek was in Cambodia in two thousand and one when 253 00:13:56.600 --> 00:14:00.519 chemical and antidepressants were first introduced in that country, and 254 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.279 the local doctors, the Cambodian doctors didn't know what these 255 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:05.759 drugs were. They've never heard of them, so they asked him, well, 256 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:08.360 what are they. I'm sorry, I'm losing my voice, but 257 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:11.240 and he explained he explained what these drugs were, and 258 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:13.840 they said to him, oh, we don't need those, we 259 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:16.799 don't need them, We've already got antidepressants. And he said, 260 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:18.000 what do you mean. He thought they were going to 261 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:20.799 talk about some you know, local herbal remedy or something. 262 00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:25.200 Instead they told him a story. They told them about 263 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:27.919 a farmer in their community who worked in the rice 264 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:31.080 fields and one day he stood on a land line 265 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:34.240 and got his leg blown off, and they gave him 266 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:37.440 an artificial leg. They're good at that in Cambodia, as 267 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:40.000 I saw myself when I was there, and they he 268 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:43.519 went back to work in the fields. But apparently it's 269 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:46.759 very painful to work underwater when you've got an artificial limb. 270 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:49.919 For obvious reasons. I'm imagining it was pretty traumatic for 271 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:51.480 this guy to be back in the fields where he 272 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:55.120 got blown up, and he started to cry all day. 273 00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:58.039 He didn't want to get out of bed, kind of 274 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.440 classic depression, they said to Derek, So we gave him 275 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.639 an antidepressant. Derek said, what was it. They explained that 276 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:08.639 they went and sat with him, they listened to him. 277 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:12.639 They realized that his pain made sense, that he wasn't 278 00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:15.279 some irrational malfunction. It was being caused by the way 279 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:18.320 he was being made to live. They figured if they 280 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:21.720 bought him a cow, he could become a dairy farmer. 281 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:26.799 He wouldn't have to be in this situation that was 282 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:29.840 causing him so much distress. So they brought him a cow. 283 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:33.440 Within a month, he stopped crying. His depression went away, 284 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.879 they said to Derek, So that cow was an antidepressant. Right, 285 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:41.480 that's what you mean. What those Cambodian doctors knew, intuitively 286 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:45.080 is what the World Health Organization, the leading medical body 287 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.799 in the world, has been trying to tell us for years. 288 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:53.679 If you're depressed, if you're anxious, you're not crazy. You're 289 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:56.759 not a machine with broken parts. You're a human being 290 00:15:56.840 --> 00:15:59.600 with unmet needs, and you need support and help to 291 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:01.960 get those needs met. And this is one of the 292 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:04.559 things that really united not all, but most of the 293 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:07.480 causes of depression and anxiety that I learned about. Everyone 294 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:11.960 listening to your showdown knows that they have natural physical needs. Right. 295 00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:15.720 You need food, you need water, you need cleaner, you 296 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:18.159 need shelter. If I took them away from you, you 297 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:21.360 would be in real trouble, real fast. Right. There's equally 298 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:25.600 strong evidence that human beings have natural psychological needs. You 299 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:28.320 need to feel you belong, You need to feel your 300 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:31.360 life has meaning and purpose. You need to feel that 301 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:34.120 people see you and value you. You need to feel 302 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:37.120 you've got a secure future. And our culture is good 303 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:39.559 at many things, but we've been getting less and less 304 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:43.240 good at meeting these underlying psychological needs but very large 305 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:45.600 numbers of people. And that is one is not the 306 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.200 only one, but that's one of the key reasons why 307 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:51.600 we have a growing depression and anxiety crisis. 308 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:58.320 You've found out a little bit more as well, because 309 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:02.879 we mentioned that you were decribed antidepressants at eighteen years 310 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:07.480 of age. Sure, and you also looked at and you 311 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:12.079 chronicle about what the lands had concluded and the studies 312 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:17.599 they did specifically for use with antidepressants with teens, and 313 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:19.039 so what were those conclusions. 314 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:21.839 This was really shocking for me. So the Lancer, which 315 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:23.920 is one of the leading one of the leading medical 316 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.440 journeys and journals in the world, published a very detailed 317 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:29.680 study that found that it looked at i think it 318 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:33.559 was seventeen chemical antidepressants for teenagers and it found that 319 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:36.680 all but one didn't work at all. And so it 320 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:38.359 recommended they'd not be given to teenager. One thing it 321 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:39.880 was shocking as one of them was the drug that 322 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:42.400 I was in fact given as a teenager PASO, And 323 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:44.039 it was quite shocking as well to see some of 324 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:47.880 the leaked memos from the drug company that produced these 325 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:50.680 drugs saying they didn't work for teenagers. But I think 326 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:53.000 one of the other names for the drug is peroxetine, 327 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:55.319 and I think the wording of the memo was that 328 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:59.519 it would be commercially unacceptable for the profile of peroxetine 329 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:02.400 to release that information, so they didn't, So they carried 330 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:03.839 on giving out We know this partly because there was 331 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:06.519 a big court case taken by Elliot Spitzer when he 332 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:09.319 was the Attorney General of New York State against the 333 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:12.319 drug companies and they had to make a big payout 334 00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:13.839 in court because of the court found they had in 335 00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:19.119 fact misled people about giving antidepressants to teenagers. So I 336 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:22.599 think again what that shows is I'm not arguing that 337 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:25.759 we should take chemicalanty depressants off the menu. They do 338 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.839 give some relief to some people. What I'm arguing is 339 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:31.839 we need to radically expand the menu because they're not 340 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:35.440 solving the problem for extremely large numbers of people. It 341 00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:37.480 doesn't mean they have no value, but it does mean 342 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:41.519 we need a lot more options. And one of the 343 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:44.480 things that was so fascinating to me was meeting all 344 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:47.200 over the world with people who were acting on this insight. 345 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:49.759 So I'll talk about one of the causes of depression anxiety, 346 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.519 and then someone who decided to effectively do the equivalent 347 00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:54.279 of what those Cambodian doctors want to do, which is 348 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:58.160 bind a cow for the problem. Right, So we are 349 00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:03.160 the loneliest that has ever existed. There's a study that 350 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:06.920 asks Americans how many close friends do you have who 351 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:09.759 you can call on in a crisis? And when they 352 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:12.880 started doing this study years ago, the most common answer 353 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:17.279 was five. Today the most common answer is none. It's 354 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:19.279 not the average, but it's the most. There were more 355 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:21.720 people who say none than any other option, which is 356 00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:27.160 kind of startling, right. And I remember I thought about 357 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:30.160 this a lot because I interviewed extensively the leading expert 358 00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:32.880 on loneliness in the world, a man who sadly actually 359 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:35.559 died this week, a wonderful guy called Professor John Cassiopo, 360 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:40.599 who did really groundbreaking research on this, and Professor Cassiopo 361 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:44.480 discovered what he discovered many things. One's shocking one. He showed, 362 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.000 so when we're stressed, we release a hormone called corssol. 363 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:52.039 He showed that feeling acutely lonely is as stressful for 364 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:55.279 human beings as being punched in the face by a stranger. 365 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:58.079 And he explained to me, you know, if you think 366 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:00.720 about why are you and I able to have this conversation, Dan, 367 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:05.119 it's partly because our ancestors on the savannahs of Africa 368 00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:08.279 were really good at one thing, right. They weren't bigger 369 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:11.119 than the animals they took down, they weren't faster than 370 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:14.240 the animals they took down, but they were incredibly good 371 00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:19.839 at banding together into tribes and cooperating. Every human instinct 372 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:22.599 is to live in a tribe. Bes need to hive, 373 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:25.400 Humans need a tribe. If you think about the circumstances 374 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:27.880 where we evolve, if you were separated from the tribe, 375 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:30.400 you were frightened and anxious and depressed for a really 376 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:33.599 good reason. You were probably about to die, right, you know, 377 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:36.559 And those are the impulses we have. We are the 378 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:41.000 first humans to ever try to live without tribes. It's 379 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:44.079 contrary to our human nature, and especially because one of 380 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:46.960 the heroes of my book Lost Connections is someone who 381 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:50.480 really absorbed this insight in this research and began to 382 00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:52.799 act on it. So, as you can tell from my 383 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:55.119 weird down to Abbey accent, I'm British, or though I 384 00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:59.400 spent life in the US and here in London at 385 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:02.960 the moment. In East London there's an extraordinary doctor called 386 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:07.319 Sam Everington. So Sam is a general practitioner in a 387 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:09.279 poor part of East London. It's actually where I lived 388 00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:11.839 for a long time, although sadly he was never my doctor. 389 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:15.000 And Sam was really uncomfortable because like me, he's not 390 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.400 blanket the opposed to chemical antidepressants. But he could just 391 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:20.160 see he had loads of patients coming to him who, 392 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:23.160 for example, were really lonely, and he could just see 393 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:27.599 that this wasn't solving their problem, you know that for 394 00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:30.480 most of them. So he decided to try something different. 395 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:33.200 One day, a woman came to him called Lisa Cunningham. 396 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:36.720 Lisa had been shut away in her home with crippling 397 00:21:36.759 --> 00:21:39.480 depression and anxiety for seven years. She'd barely left her 398 00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:43.400 house and Sam said to Lisa, don't worry, I'll carry. 399 00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:45.160 I'm giving you the drugs. I'm also going to prescribe 400 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:47.960 something else. I'm going to prescribe for you to take 401 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:50.519