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<v Speaker 1>Well with the come and take my pains, my ry,

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<v Speaker 1>oh whiskey.

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<v Speaker 2>Why think alone when you can drink it all in

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<v Speaker 2>with Ricochet's Three Whiskey Happy Hour, join your bartenders Steve Hayward,

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<v Speaker 2>John Yu and the International Woman of Mystery Lucretia where

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<v Speaker 2>they lapped it up and David, ain't you besy on

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<v Speaker 2>the should He's happy, got a giving and that with me. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>Hi everybody, and welcome to this first of the revived

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<v Speaker 2>classic format editions of the podcasts, in which I have

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<v Speaker 2>long form conversations and interviews with authors and other interesting people.

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<v Speaker 2>And fitting for the Three Whiskey Happy Hour podcast that

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<v Speaker 2>our first guest in the revived series is someone who

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<v Speaker 2>not only traces his ancestry back to Ireland, but who

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<v Speaker 2>spends a lot of his time in Ireland a living

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<v Speaker 2>today and that person is Michael Walsh, whose most recent

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<v Speaker 2>book is called A Rage to Conquer Twelve Battles that

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<v Speaker 2>changed the course of Western History. Before I get into

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<v Speaker 2>it with Michael, you should know that he is a

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<v Speaker 2>true renaissance man. He's written over twenty books, worked as

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<v Speaker 2>a senior foreign correspondent for Time magazine for almost twenty years.

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<v Speaker 2>He has written classical music and made many classical performances,

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<v Speaker 2>and his books ranged from novels to books about classical

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<v Speaker 2>music and modern opera, and books about things like the

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<v Speaker 2>insidious effect of the Frankfurt School. And now this book

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<v Speaker 2>that we're talking about today is the second of a

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<v Speaker 2>projected three volumes to talk about the glories of warfare,

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<v Speaker 2>and by that he means that modern sensibilities are all

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<v Speaker 2>against war and fighting, and of course he recognizes it

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<v Speaker 2>as a trade of human nature, a necessity that should

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<v Speaker 2>be grasped with relish rather than with the fashionable dread

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<v Speaker 2>of modern times. His first book in a series was

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<v Speaker 2>called Last Stands, Why Men Fight when all is lost?

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<v Speaker 2>And the current one, as I say, is a rage

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<v Speaker 2>to conquer. And so let's get into it with Michael,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think you will find this conversation fascinating. Well, Michael,

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<v Speaker 2>this is your nineteenth book, by my count, A Rage

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<v Speaker 2>to Conquer, Twelve battles that changed the course of American history.

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<v Speaker 2>And I haven't read all your books. I've read, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know a quarter of the maybe, but this is

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<v Speaker 2>my favorite so far. I just had a delight reading

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<v Speaker 2>through it. And I'm actually not through the whole thing.

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<v Speaker 2>But every chapter I'm having great fun. So it's a

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<v Speaker 2>sequel to Last Stands. I want to come back to

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<v Speaker 2>the Last Stands book later actually and get straight into

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<v Speaker 2>this book. So twelve battles, but it's wrapped inside of thesis,

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<v Speaker 2>which is you're rehabilitating war. I remember graffiti on a

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<v Speaker 2>bomb from the First Gulf War in nineteen ninety one

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<v Speaker 2>that said give war a chance, which play on that

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<v Speaker 2>stupid old John Lennon lyric. I think it was again

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<v Speaker 2>big Wark raad again. Well, and I think hopefully this

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<v Speaker 2>isn't too much of a simplification to say your thesis

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<v Speaker 2>is that war is normal, natural, praiseworthy, something to be

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<v Speaker 2>admired and not abjured the way it is in modern times.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that too the summary of of what you're trying

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<v Speaker 2>to get at here.

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<v Speaker 1>No, thinks I think that's fair Stuve. I think what

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<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to do, as I did in the last

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<v Speaker 1>Stance with a quote from the Manual Kant, was to

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<v Speaker 1>point out war as the natural state of mankind and

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<v Speaker 1>pieces the aberration, and so we lived in this funny

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<v Speaker 1>interwar period. It'll be seen as that later on. Of course,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't notice it because we think, well, this is normal,

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<v Speaker 1>and we grew up in that. But you know, old

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<v Speaker 1>cultures like you and I grew up, were born and

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<v Speaker 1>raised right after the Second World War, and we've really

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<v Speaker 1>lived through a time of extraordinarily a peaceful world comparative

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<v Speaker 1>to World War Two, and I just think we have

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<v Speaker 1>to face the fact that war is inevitable. And the

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<v Speaker 1>most important takeaway I have is that war is not

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<v Speaker 1>a failure. I think that we've come to this notion

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<v Speaker 1>I think post World War two, especially with the UN

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<v Speaker 1>that war can somehow be preempted or avoided. And it

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<v Speaker 1>represents a misinterpretation of Classovitz's famous dictum that war is

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<v Speaker 1>policy by other means. And as I go to some

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<v Speaker 1>length to point out, but he actually said it, war

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<v Speaker 1>is policy with other means. The German word is very clear.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know why it's been so consistently mistranslated, but

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<v Speaker 1>if you say by to me, it sounds like, well,

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<v Speaker 1>everything else has failed, so now we're using other means.

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<v Speaker 1>Whereas properly understood, warfare is a tool in the diplomatic

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<v Speaker 1>kit to be used when necessary. It's the acts behind

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<v Speaker 1>the glass basically, but when you need it you use it.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's really the thesis behind all the discussions in

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<v Speaker 1>Rage to Conquer.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it reminds me of a professor I had in

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<v Speaker 2>graduate school now more than forty years ago, who, before

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<v Speaker 2>going on academia, had been a tank driver for Pattent's

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<v Speaker 2>Third Army in World War Two, and he had an

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<v Speaker 2>ingenious way of starting his class on diplomacy and military

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<v Speaker 2>power that you'll appreciate. He would, on the first day

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<v Speaker 2>of class pass around to World War two M one

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<v Speaker 2>rifle and explained how it worked, and then he'd fix

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<v Speaker 2>the bandet, describe how to use the bayonet when you're

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<v Speaker 2>out of ammunition, and he was very lyrical about it.

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<v Speaker 2>And then he would end by saying holding up the

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<v Speaker 2>gun and say, this is the basic tool of diplomacy.

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<v Speaker 2>Next class we'll start talking about the basic tools of

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<v Speaker 2>military power. So that was very much your understanding of

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<v Speaker 2>class what you're just explaining. And they don't make professors

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<v Speaker 2>like that any more, needless to say, and so I

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<v Speaker 2>am hearing echoes of certain Then other person you remind

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<v Speaker 2>me of a bit was well, maybe I'm jumping ahead

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<v Speaker 2>too far, but your last chapter about the post nine

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<v Speaker 2>to eleven World and how unserious we've been about things.

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<v Speaker 2>Remind me of my late friend, who you may have

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<v Speaker 2>known was Angelo codevillav Oh well, right, yeah, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Angelo used to say, I'm not sure you ever wrote

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<v Speaker 2>it anywhere, but he used to say, as you point

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<v Speaker 2>out in your chapter, the Saudis were up to their

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<v Speaker 2>necks in what was going on behind nine to eleven.

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<v Speaker 2>I think we know that's the concealed part of the

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<v Speaker 2>nine to eleven Commission report. And he said, you know

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of those royal family people live in those

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<v Speaker 2>high rise luxury hotels. We just ought a round up

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<v Speaker 2>three thousand of them and execute them, as you know, right,

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<v Speaker 2>as retribution for what they connived in. And I okay, anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>the point is is this is a real breath of

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<v Speaker 2>fresh air when so much treatment of a warfare and conflict,

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<v Speaker 2>as as you say, is sort of I put it

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<v Speaker 2>sentimental continism. Oh right. Anyway, that's my commentary on your

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<v Speaker 2>very sound commentary. We're in heated agreement about all this.

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<v Speaker 2>I think let's take a look at some of the battles.

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<v Speaker 2>You pick a lot from antiquity, you know, Achilles, Alexander, Caesar, Constantine,

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<v Speaker 2>And I guess maybe I went to unpractice to say

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of those are a long time ago and

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<v Speaker 2>remote from you know, modern history, and although they're important

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<v Speaker 2>to ancient history, seems to me the presumption there is

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<v Speaker 2>that the Western history is one long continuity and that

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<v Speaker 2>without those we wouldn't be where we are today, which

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<v Speaker 2>I think would be a novel proposition to a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people who think that's just antiquity and has no

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<v Speaker 2>relevance to our world today.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well they're They're almost as old as the constitutions,

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<v Speaker 1>Steve right, I love that.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, I forget which idiots said that, but.

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<v Speaker 2>As reclined it was, ezraclined, a constitution is like one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred years old, one.

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<v Speaker 1>Hundred years old, and what relevance could it possibly have

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<v Speaker 1>to ut Well, I was thinking about this last November.

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<v Speaker 1>I was actually in the Forum in Rome, which is

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<v Speaker 1>like old, right old, and I was walking the footsteps

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<v Speaker 1>of Caesar, and it doesn't seem that old when you're

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<v Speaker 1>actually in it. I think that's the point is, especially

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<v Speaker 1>as Americans where disassociated from our own originations and our

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<v Speaker 1>own pasts and our own people's past to some extent,

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<v Speaker 1>we have a new covenant, as it were, a new

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<v Speaker 1>beginning a new hope. But we go back to Greco Romanism.

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<v Speaker 1>And I've made the distinction in this book, and I

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<v Speaker 1>will make an even more in the third book in

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<v Speaker 1>this series, which I'm writing right now. That I believe

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<v Speaker 1>we are a Greco Roman civilization not a Judeo Christian

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<v Speaker 1>civilization for many, many, many, many, many, many many reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>But as far as our Western civilization starts, it starts

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<v Speaker 1>with the Iliad, and it starts with Homer. Now that

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<v Speaker 1>is roughly contemporaneous with the origins of Judaism, as you know,

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<v Speaker 1>so that the Trojan work takes place about twelve hundred BC,

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<v Speaker 1>So do the early stages of Judaism and Moses and

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<v Speaker 1>the Egyptian captivity, etc. Homer rights in eight hundred BC,

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<v Speaker 1>which is right around the time that Judaism is coming

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<v Speaker 1>together as a mosaic faith. Augustus becomes emperor, right around

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<v Speaker 1>the time that Jesus is born and Christianity is born,

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<v Speaker 1>and Rabbinic Judaism is begun. So these religions and histories

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<v Speaker 1>bump into each other constantly. But from my own point

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<v Speaker 1>of view, and this is not to argue religion, I'll

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<v Speaker 1>do that in the next book, but I've got to

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<v Speaker 1>leave the folks wanting more. From a historical point of

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<v Speaker 1>view and from a literary cultural military point of view,

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<v Speaker 1>we really start with the Greco Roman period. So that's

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<v Speaker 1>why I began with the Iliad and with Alexander the Great.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, and then you one chapter that goes into

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<v Speaker 2>a period that I have to confess I'm weak on.

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<v Speaker 2>Was the Crusades. It's your chapter seven? Yes, was that

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<v Speaker 2>Beaumont at Dori Lea. I'm not sure I'm pronouncing that right.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure I'm not. I was not surprised, but still

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<v Speaker 2>nonetheless delighted to see you rehabilitate the Crusades from all

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<v Speaker 2>the calibi thrown that episode in Western history. But then

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<v Speaker 2>from there you jump up to Napoleon, and I'm thinking,

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<v Speaker 2>is there a reason you skip some of the battles

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<v Speaker 2>in between, or maybe this in your last book and

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<v Speaker 2>I just don't remember it. I'm thinking, you know, if

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<v Speaker 2>the Polish cavalry doesn't show up at the Battle of

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<v Speaker 2>the Ponto, more of Europe would be Islamic hundreds of

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<v Speaker 2>years ago, as opposed to only half a quarter Islamic today.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll come back to that anyway, so what was you

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<v Speaker 2>What were your criteria for picking the back battles and

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<v Speaker 2>excluding certain other ones that might be.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, some of them I had done. So people said, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>well you forgot X, Y and Z. I said, well,

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<v Speaker 1>was in Last Dance and something going to do in

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<v Speaker 1>the new book, which is called The Wrath of God,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's explicitly about religious warfare. So the whole Muslim

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<v Speaker 1>Christian series of conflicts, where I'm going to begin with

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<v Speaker 1>the with the Hebrews and the Canaanites in the first

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<v Speaker 1>book of the Torah and continue forward again to nine

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<v Speaker 1>to eleven. In the current well very long war, we're

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<v Speaker 1>fighting against Islam, even though only once it seems to

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<v Speaker 1>think that it's right, which is a problem. So that's

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<v Speaker 1>why also I wanted to get the notion of heroic

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<v Speaker 1>individual commanders front and center in each one of these battles.

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<v Speaker 1>That's why it's Xander and Caesar, it's Constantine, it's a

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<v Speaker 1>guy nobody's ever heard of called Asius, who stood off

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<v Speaker 1>until of the hun at the Battle of the Catalonian Plains.

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<v Speaker 1>And by the time I was getting past that those

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<v Speaker 1>origin stories, I thought Napoleon was the next person to do.

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<v Speaker 1>He just is more so than Wellington in a way.

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<v Speaker 1>And remember that Napoleon and Wellington never fought each other

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<v Speaker 1>until the very last battle, which was water Booths. Napoleon

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<v Speaker 1>dominated the nineteenth century in a way that very few

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<v Speaker 1>men have dominated a century, and that's a century filled

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<v Speaker 1>with dominant medicinalities. So I just was irresistibly drun to Napoleon,

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<v Speaker 1>partly for his tactics on battlefield, but mostly because he

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<v Speaker 1>represents the artist as hero. Forget that he's a military commander.

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<v Speaker 1>He is a self made man of lowly relatively low origins.

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<v Speaker 1>He's an Italian for one thing, who is French by

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<v Speaker 1>pure acts of a treaty. He never even learns to

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<v Speaker 1>speak French very well, as men made fun of them

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<v Speaker 1>all the time. His accent was apparently terrible. And yet

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<v Speaker 1>by sheer personality he wins the Battle of Austerlitz because

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<v Speaker 1>he knows Alexander and Caesar. He studied them very carefully,

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<v Speaker 1>and each one of the battles enrage to conquer not

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<v Speaker 1>each one, but many. You will see the commander goes, oh, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>Caesar was in this exact same position, and what did

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<v Speaker 1>he do to get out of it? Well, that's what

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to do. And so you see this constant

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<v Speaker 1>repetition of battlefield tactics and maneuvering and strategic maneuvering. Even

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<v Speaker 1>more important that echoes down through the ages. So that's

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<v Speaker 1>why I left. That made that big leap to Napoleon.

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<v Speaker 1>And then we move into the World War II Commanders

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<v Speaker 1>on Battle in nine to eleven.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, right, yes, I mean, you know, Patent's invocation of

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<v Speaker 2>Caesar and leaders of military leaders of antiquity is legendary

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<v Speaker 2>from the movie if nothing else. And you know, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>we also mentioned Nimits at Midway perishing at san he Hell, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I can't say French myself worth a darn mers of Napoleon,

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<v Speaker 2>but yeah, that's right in a war that yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>mean World War One is a a war known for

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<v Speaker 2>its lack of maneuver for reasons. I'll come back to that.

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<v Speaker 2>I think maybe you're of lingering importance. But yeah, but

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<v Speaker 2>I mean the other one did anyone bring up to you?

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<v Speaker 2>And again, forgive me if I missed it in the

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<v Speaker 2>previous book, Uh, it skipt the Civil War battles or

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<v Speaker 2>the Civil War itself, which seems to me was quite pivotal,

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<v Speaker 2>not just to America.

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<v Speaker 1>But I think for the world. Actually, well I did.

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<v Speaker 1>I did Shiloh in last stance, okay. And the reason

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<v Speaker 1>I did Shiloh and not Gettysburg or Antietam or Vicksburg,

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<v Speaker 1>was that if Grant had lost at the end of

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<v Speaker 1>Day one of Shiloh, the war was over over. He's gone,

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<v Speaker 1>Sherman's gone. The Union army has been defeated and sent packing.

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<v Speaker 1>The Confederates command the Tennessee River and the Mississippi River.

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<v Speaker 1>Because you don't have Grant to come take Vicksburg. Later on,

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<v Speaker 1>the whole war effort collapses right there, up against the

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<v Speaker 1>banks of the Tennessee River. And when I did that chapter,

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<v Speaker 1>I got on the car and I drove myself from

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<v Speaker 1>New England to Shiloh, actually to walk that battlefield. And

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<v Speaker 1>when you get to the part where they're right at

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<v Speaker 1>the river, this is the end of day one. They've

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<v Speaker 1>been surprised, attacked. Sherman has blown off the reports that

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<v Speaker 1>there's this giant Confederate army right out there behind the trees.

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<v Speaker 1>Grant's up the river recuperating from a riding accident, and

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<v Speaker 1>he was the best horseman in the army, and his

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<v Speaker 1>horse had slipped in the mud and landed on his leg,

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<v Speaker 1>so he was rec operating from that. If they were

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<v Speaker 1>to have been pushed into the river on day one,

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<v Speaker 1>that was the end of it. So that's why I

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<v Speaker 1>let that stand in for the Civil War for this

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<v Speaker 1>current project.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, So let me ask you a combination question that explains,

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<v Speaker 2>or it gives reason why the rage to conquer, as

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<v Speaker 2>you put it, is not respected, not acknowledged, not understood,

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<v Speaker 2>and not encouraged today. And that would be the argument

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<v Speaker 2>that I think Churchill makes the best of anybody starting

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<v Speaker 2>around nineteen oh one, that modern warfare was going to

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<v Speaker 2>be different. Right, that famous early speech he gives, I

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<v Speaker 2>think in nineteen oh one where he says, the wars

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<v Speaker 2>of people's will be worse than the wars of kings. Why,

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<v Speaker 2>because of technology, we're now going to have you know,

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<v Speaker 2>total wars we later called it, in which civilian casualties

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<v Speaker 2>and civilian damage would be much greater than it ever

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<v Speaker 2>been before. And then you combine that with technology, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, one of his later essays, I think it

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<v Speaker 2>was mass effects in modern life. He says, I'll paraphrase,

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<v Speaker 2>the problem with modern warfare is there's no or as

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<v Speaker 2>much less scope for battlefield heroism. The generals who used

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<v Speaker 2>to be on their horse, like Napoleon, like Marlborough, like

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<v Speaker 2>Grant and Lee, they're now remote from the battlefield, and

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<v Speaker 2>so they're not as decisive as they once would have been,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, in those older battles. And so, in other words,

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<v Speaker 2>the nature modern warfare has changed. It has lost its

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<v Speaker 2>I guess I may say it's manliness in some ways.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I mean, how do you regard that argument

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<v Speaker 2>and you credit that with being a factor in why

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<v Speaker 2>or mass opinion has turned so against war or regards

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<v Speaker 2>it the way it does.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let me start by uttering a complete heresy.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm afraid you're gonna do that.

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<v Speaker 3>Go ahead, I'm not a Churchill fan. I'm afraid you're

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<v Speaker 3>going to say that am I'm not a Churchill fan.

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<v Speaker 3>I am not a Churchill fan. And the reason I

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<v Speaker 3>am not a Churchill fan has to do with that

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<v Speaker 3>exact attitude. Remember that Churchill thought with Kitchener in the

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<v Speaker 3>assault on the MACHTI was already dead. He killed Gordon

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<v Speaker 3>and then he died, And then there was the Battle

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<v Speaker 3>of Omdumont, and Churchill was a young, young officer, and

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<v Speaker 3>he wrote famously there's nothing more exhilarating than being shot

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<v Speaker 3>at an Okay, so you got shot at and missed.

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<v Speaker 3>After that, his military judgment is horrendously terrible. He's the

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<v Speaker 3>architect of Gallipoli for one thing, which was Blatant's stupidity.

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<v Speaker 3>He was the architect of the soft underbelly theory that

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<v Speaker 3>got Americans killed at Anzio and didn't work anyway. At

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<v Speaker 3>no point is he a great strategic military thinker. He

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<v Speaker 3>has lots of great qualities, and I'm not going to

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<v Speaker 3>get into an argument with Larry Arn't about Churchill or right,

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<v Speaker 3>But I don't think he's a great military mind. And

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<v Speaker 3>I think he presided over the dissolution of the empire.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, he has a lot of negatives in his

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<v Speaker 3>column that the Churchill fan club seems to ignore. But

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<v Speaker 3>I think see his experience was riding that horse and

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<v Speaker 3>getting shot at by some Arabs that couldn't shoot straight,

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<v Speaker 3>and therefore he wonders about that. But Patten gives the

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<v Speaker 3>light to that. Patten gets shot in World War One

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<v Speaker 3>his orderly carry. He's right in the front. He and

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<v Speaker 3>MacArthur wandering around in costumes saying Ill us right, and

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<v Speaker 3>Patten gets shot in the butt and has to be

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<v Speaker 3>dragged into a shell hole and then brought back. He

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<v Speaker 3>was always at the front, and so I quoted John

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<v Speaker 3>Keegan at the beginning of this book about great commanders,

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<v Speaker 3>which is in front always sometimes never. Okay, still have

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<v Speaker 3>a great commander who's never at the front. Nimitz is

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<v Speaker 3>a good example of that. Nimmits fought the Battle of

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<v Speaker 3>Midway from Honolulu where I grew up, Pearl Harbor. As

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<v Speaker 3>a matter of fact, when I grew up and I

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<v Speaker 3>was going to high school, i'd walk out my front

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<v Speaker 3>door and see Pearl Harbor. It was right there from

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<v Speaker 3>so I lived with that as a young teenager. But

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<v Speaker 3>Nimmus won that war because he understood the enemy and

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<v Speaker 3>he had a sense of technical innovation. His great genius was, hey,

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<v Speaker 3>we're a little short on aircraft carriers, but hey, that

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<v Speaker 3>Midway island that's an aircraft carrier just doesn't go anywhere.

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<v Speaker 3>So what we'll do is hide our other aircraft carriers

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<v Speaker 3>behind it, and the Japanese will sail right into the trap.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's what happened, and we put four of their

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<v Speaker 3>carriers at the bottom, and that really broke the offensive

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<v Speaker 3>power with Imperial Navy. The war's over at that point,

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<v Speaker 3>but the mopping up campaign. Don't get me started on

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<v Speaker 3>Deglas MacArthur. The mopping up campaign also obviously follows that,

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<v Speaker 3>So I think that's only partly true. I think Alexander

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<v Speaker 3>wore a plume, Talbot kill me, Caesar wore a red coat.

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<v Speaker 3>Here I am you want a piece of me? I'm

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<v Speaker 3>right here, and rat commit and Napoleon did too, and

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<v Speaker 3>that and their men loved them. What we have is

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<v Speaker 3>a bunch of political generals, plush bottomed fruit salads who

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<v Speaker 3>have never done a goddamn thing and have risen in

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<v Speaker 3>the peacetime professional army. I'm also against the the all

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<v Speaker 3>the all volunteer army. I think it's very bad. I

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<v Speaker 3>think it's bad for them. I think it's bad for

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<v Speaker 3>young men. I think it's bad for women. I think

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<v Speaker 3>it's bad for everybody. And the results, well, tell me

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<v Speaker 3>the last war we won.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah right, No, I think I agree with you about that.

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<v Speaker 2>I sometimes have friendly expressions about the idea of national service,

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<v Speaker 2>which would be mostly military service. It's it's a big problem.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll just I don't want to argue about Churchill either,

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<v Speaker 2>except I do want to say, Michael that I wonder

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<v Speaker 2>if some of that isn't your inner irishman coming out a.

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<v Speaker 1>Bit seriously, it's not, because after all, Churchill was half Americans,

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<v Speaker 1>so you know, right, or as.

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<v Speaker 2>A critic said, half American and wholly reprehensible.

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<v Speaker 1>Well yeah, or I wrote in my novel and all

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<v Speaker 1>the stints about fear l L Da Guardia half Italian,

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<v Speaker 1>half Jewish and neither half the good half basic.

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<v Speaker 2>What I do think there's something to his argument though

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<v Speaker 2>about you know, push button warfare, which we have now.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, if you, I mean, I know you have

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<v Speaker 2>strong views about which I have a lot of sympathy with.

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<v Speaker 2>I think about the Russian Ukraine war going on, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's hard to see coming out of that that there's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be a commander or you know, a military

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<v Speaker 2>figure in you know, tales of heroism and turning points.

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<v Speaker 2>It looks like a grinded out technological war of who

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<v Speaker 2>can bring the most killing capacity from our modern machinery

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<v Speaker 2>and who wants to sign up for that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's true. There's a wonderful book by a woman

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<v Speaker 1>named and her name will lose me at the moment.

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<v Speaker 1>It's called nuclear war, and it is a scenario is

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<v Speaker 1>relatively recent. It's riveting. I recommend to everybody what would

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<v Speaker 1>happen in the event of a nuclear war. The answer

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<v Speaker 1>is We're all going to die. That's it. So there

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<v Speaker 1>is no battlefield tactics to nuclear war. Much of it

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be controlled by AI. Actually, so the

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<v Speaker 1>robots will end up killing us after they steal our livelihood.

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<v Speaker 1>They'll kill us. But what's lacking isn't so much battlefield exposure.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just plain leadership. You don't You haven't had a

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<v Speaker 1>leader among military for my lifetime, basically. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 1>remember very vaguely, I think, or maybe it's in my

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<v Speaker 1>childhood MacArthur's farewell speech after Truman fired him. And what

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<v Speaker 1>figure has there been, even though I think what MacArthur's

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<v Speaker 1>vastly overrated, What figure has there been of that national

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<v Speaker 1>stature who was a military person?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, would you count de gaul and Eisenhower,

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<v Speaker 2>who were still figures of my youth? I mean I

403
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<v Speaker 2>was born late Eisenower years, but you know de Gaul

404
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<v Speaker 2>came back in the sixties, and I mean I always

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<v Speaker 2>point to him as someone who was in many ways

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<v Speaker 2>a repulsive human being and also very able and I

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<v Speaker 2>think and indispensable in some ways, and I figure more

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<v Speaker 2>Americans ought to study. That's what I say.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think Eisenhower was it was a great general.

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<v Speaker 1>He was a great beercraft general. He didn't fight. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>of all the guys in World War Two who had

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<v Speaker 1>been World War One veterans, Eisenhower wasn't one of them.

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<v Speaker 1>He stayed in the United States the whole time. But

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<v Speaker 1>what he was was a guy who could move his

415
00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:49.960
<v Speaker 1>chess pieces. So there's no doubt that Patten is one

416
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.559
<v Speaker 1>of the greatest battlefield commanders we ever had. But you

417
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:57.039
<v Speaker 1>couldn't let Patent run the whole thing because it would

418
00:24:57.319 --> 00:25:00.880
<v Speaker 1>been off the rails and you needed to unleash that

419
00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:07.559
<v Speaker 1>dog of war only when necessary. Marshall was very similar.

420
00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:11.440
<v Speaker 1>Marshall wanted a command but very early on the Army

421
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:14.920
<v Speaker 1>had realized this guy is an organizing genius. So why

422
00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:16.920
<v Speaker 1>do we want to get him killed off as a

423
00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:20.960
<v Speaker 1>as a first lieutenant or a captain when we can,

424
00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:24.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, stash him at Fort Belvoir in Washington and

425
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:29.559
<v Speaker 1>learned the bureaucracy. It's important to remember, I think for

426
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:32.960
<v Speaker 1>our audiences we didn't have them professional.

427
00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:34.559
<v Speaker 2>Let me stop you, Michael. You froze up on me

428
00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:37.319
<v Speaker 2>for about twenty seconds there and where you left off,

429
00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:40.200
<v Speaker 2>or maybe it was my end, but let me have

430
00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:42.160
<v Speaker 2>you restart. You were the sentence you were in the

431
00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:46.640
<v Speaker 2>middle of was Marshall was an organizing genius. And you

432
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:48.880
<v Speaker 2>know before they were talking about you know, Eyesenhower and

433
00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:52.960
<v Speaker 2>so forth. So pick up again with a General Marshall,

434
00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:54.960
<v Speaker 2>and you know, just start from the beginning of that

435
00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:56.039
<v Speaker 2>and I'll splice it together.

436
00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:00.160
<v Speaker 1>Sure, Marshall was an organizing genius, so it didn't make

437
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.079
<v Speaker 1>any sense for them to send him to war and

438
00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:07.160
<v Speaker 1>get him killed off as a first lieutenant or captain

439
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:12.279
<v Speaker 1>when they could stash him at Fort Belvoir in Washington

440
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:18.319
<v Speaker 1>and teach him the organizational principles of the army. So

441
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:22.839
<v Speaker 1>it's important to remember that we didn't have a professional army.

442
00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:25.359
<v Speaker 1>We didn't have one at the time of the Civil War.

443
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:28.200
<v Speaker 1>We didn't have one in World War One, we didn't

444
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:31.480
<v Speaker 1>have one in World War Two. We started from scratch

445
00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:35.640
<v Speaker 1>in every one of those wars. Remember that Grant had

446
00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:38.799
<v Speaker 1>been a graduate of West Point and had served and

447
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:43.000
<v Speaker 1>had resigned his commission and gone off. He was lonely.

448
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:47.200
<v Speaker 1>He was stationed out in Nowheresville, California and the Oregon territories,

449
00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:50.079
<v Speaker 1>and he was lonely and homesick, and he missed his

450
00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:53.119
<v Speaker 1>wife so and he drank too much when he was

451
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:57.039
<v Speaker 1>off duty. He was never on duty drunk. So he quit.

452
00:26:57.720 --> 00:26:59.440
<v Speaker 1>And at the time of the Civil War he was

453
00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:03.160
<v Speaker 1>working and failing in a little tanner shop in Galina,

454
00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:06.359
<v Speaker 1>that is I think his father owned, one of his relatives.

455
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:09.880
<v Speaker 1>And he said, hey, you know, I've got a captaincy

456
00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:13.799
<v Speaker 1>in the army. I'm actually a professional soldier. So they

457
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:17.240
<v Speaker 1>gave him a command immediately, and then he made his

458
00:27:17.319 --> 00:27:21.039
<v Speaker 1>bones rather quickly after that. But we had to start

459
00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:24.839
<v Speaker 1>World War One from a standing start. To General Pershing,

460
00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:28.359
<v Speaker 1>who is the hero of the World War One section

461
00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:32.440
<v Speaker 1>in my final big chapter, he had been a career

462
00:27:32.599 --> 00:27:37.559
<v Speaker 1>army officer, but he had well, he was like at

463
00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:40.480
<v Speaker 1>the what's the name of that place in San Francisco,

464
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:45.799
<v Speaker 1>the presidio, Yeah, the presidio he had there. He had

465
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:50.720
<v Speaker 1>also commanded a troop of black soldiers in Southwest, which

466
00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:54.119
<v Speaker 1>gave him his nickname of black Jack. That's where that

467
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:56.480
<v Speaker 1>came from. He was the white officer in charge of

468
00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.519
<v Speaker 1>an all black unit. And as a result, so when

469
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:03.839
<v Speaker 1>World War One comes, Pershing is the most senior figure

470
00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:07.119
<v Speaker 1>and it's up to him to suddenly organize an army

471
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:12.079
<v Speaker 1>out of nothing, out of Aisle of Armbolice basically. And

472
00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:14.000
<v Speaker 1>then we got caught with our pants down again in

473
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:16.880
<v Speaker 1>World War Two and had to mobilize. Now, luckily, America

474
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:19.519
<v Speaker 1>in those days was capable of doing such a thing,

475
00:28:20.119 --> 00:28:24.079
<v Speaker 1>and we could turn civilian production like Henry Ford's automobile

476
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:28.720
<v Speaker 1>assembly line into making tanks and trucks, so we were

477
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:32.880
<v Speaker 1>able to do that. But the standing professional army was

478
00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:36.480
<v Speaker 1>something the founders warned against, and no one really thought

479
00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:38.720
<v Speaker 1>that was a good idea because that was a tool

480
00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:43.319
<v Speaker 1>of tyranny. That's why you have the Third Amendment, for example,

481
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:46.720
<v Speaker 1>that the army can't come to your house in California

482
00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:49.359
<v Speaker 1>and say here, we're putting a tune of soldiers in

483
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:52.839
<v Speaker 1>your den. Have a nice day, right, yeah, right.

484
00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:57.000
<v Speaker 2>So let's go to your last chapter on the post

485
00:28:57.079 --> 00:29:00.799
<v Speaker 2>nine to eleven world were in the middle of. When

486
00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:03.799
<v Speaker 2>I say it's a splendid, contemptuous rant, I meant that

487
00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:09.000
<v Speaker 2>as praise, not as criticism. Let me share with I'm

488
00:29:09.079 --> 00:29:10.680
<v Speaker 2>quite sure how I can characterize it. So let me

489
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:16.000
<v Speaker 2>share one sentence with our listeners from page three seventy one, quote,

490
00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:19.240
<v Speaker 2>the Imperial Romans would have gone full to Lenda st On,

491
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:24.559
<v Speaker 2>Saudi Arabia raised its cities, destroyed the ka'aba, leveled the mosque,

492
00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:28.359
<v Speaker 2>occupied the oil fields, seized its wealth, executed its leaders,

493
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:32.000
<v Speaker 2>and sold the populace into slavery. They knew an existential

494
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:35.559
<v Speaker 2>struggle when they were in one. So I mean, that's

495
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:37.720
<v Speaker 2>when that blows your hair back, and you know.

496
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.680
<v Speaker 1>But that's the money sentence in the book everyone picked

497
00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:42.519
<v Speaker 1>up really.

498
00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:45.920
<v Speaker 2>Okay, good, right? No, I mean, rather you explained sort

499
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:48.279
<v Speaker 2>of the incompetence and the sort of willful blindness to

500
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:51.160
<v Speaker 2>what really is going on, and by the way that

501
00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:53.200
<v Speaker 2>feeds into I agree with you completely about we have

502
00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:56.160
<v Speaker 2>political generals who were promoted not for military excellence but

503
00:29:56.279 --> 00:30:00.279
<v Speaker 2>for bureaucratic role playing, and it's very, very bad. I

504
00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:01.920
<v Speaker 2>don't know if you want to add all that. I mean,

505
00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:05.119
<v Speaker 2>that is your money sentence, but well, I do have

506
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:07.799
<v Speaker 2>this to say. We do have political generals, and people

507
00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:12.400
<v Speaker 2>don't realize that. For example, with general, the rank of general,

508
00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:16.000
<v Speaker 2>there's gradations of it, and you get the first two

509
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:20.039
<v Speaker 2>from your service. So you get promoted to brigadier general,

510
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:24.680
<v Speaker 2>and you get promoted to major general lieutenant general, which

511
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:30.319
<v Speaker 2>is three stars you get from politicians, and then four stars,

512
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:33.039
<v Speaker 2>and then there's on eve been a handful of five

513
00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:37.359
<v Speaker 2>stars in the history of the country. So and oftentimes

514
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.880
<v Speaker 2>offices are created that require three stars. So the head

515
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:45.839
<v Speaker 2>of the National Security Agency, for example, must be a

516
00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:49.000
<v Speaker 2>three star. So if you're up for that job, you're

517
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:51.160
<v Speaker 2>going to get promoted to a three star, and then

518
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:53.720
<v Speaker 2>you're going to be the head of the National Security Agency.

519
00:30:54.519 --> 00:30:56.920
<v Speaker 2>There are a number of positions in which that is

520
00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:01.839
<v Speaker 2>a requirement. So you know, in the rockdvertizing monster that

521
00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:06.000
<v Speaker 2>is the US government, we create roles and then fill them.

522
00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:09.200
<v Speaker 2>That doesn't mean we have more generals or more top generals,

523
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:11.279
<v Speaker 2>and it doesn't mean any of them that have any

524
00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:17.319
<v Speaker 2>military in the field experience, except accidentally. It just means more,

525
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:22.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, more generals, that's what it means. Yeah, right,

526
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:25.440
<v Speaker 2>last question on military subjects, and then I want to

527
00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:28.559
<v Speaker 2>change to Ireland for a few minutes. I have seen

528
00:31:28.599 --> 00:31:30.839
<v Speaker 2>you tweet out here and there and make other brief

529
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:33.680
<v Speaker 2>comments that all seem to point in the direction of

530
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.319
<v Speaker 2>thinking we are overestimating China as a military threat to us,

531
00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:40.279
<v Speaker 2>and so say a little bit more. And you did

532
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:43.440
<v Speaker 2>mention that, I think here in your last chapter of

533
00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:46.319
<v Speaker 2>the book. And I gather it's not that they're not

534
00:31:46.359 --> 00:31:48.519
<v Speaker 2>building lots of ships and planes and rockets that are

535
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:51.880
<v Speaker 2>bad things, but that they're actually not very capable as

536
00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:54.839
<v Speaker 2>a war fighting civilization. Is that fair enough?

537
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:59.559
<v Speaker 1>For how do you shows that so name of war

538
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:03.000
<v Speaker 1>they've won against a Western power? The answer is zero.

539
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:08.599
<v Speaker 1>They took on the Arabs in the eighth century at

540
00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:12.920
<v Speaker 1>a battle called Kalas Talas, and it was mixed army

541
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:19.440
<v Speaker 1>of Chinese and other Asians against the expanding caliphate, and

542
00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:21.799
<v Speaker 1>the Chinese were trying to push westward. They ran into

543
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:24.200
<v Speaker 1>the Arabs and they got whopped. And one of the

544
00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:29.240
<v Speaker 1>reasons they got whopped is in Chinese culture, a military

545
00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:33.640
<v Speaker 1>career wasn't honorable. It wasn't something to be remember that

546
00:32:33.799 --> 00:32:39.480
<v Speaker 1>is a giant bureaucratic hat, and military people didn't rise

547
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:44.799
<v Speaker 1>to the top. So their generals were Koreans. And now

548
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:47.960
<v Speaker 1>I can speak with some familial interest in this, since

549
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.839
<v Speaker 1>my father is a veteran of the Chosen Reservoir, a

550
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:54.799
<v Speaker 1>battle that the Marines fought against the Chinese. He's one

551
00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:57.519
<v Speaker 1>of the last survivors. He's ninety nine years old.

552
00:32:57.759 --> 00:32:58.279
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

553
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:03.839
<v Speaker 1>And he was in the whole Korean campaign, from Pusson

554
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:08.079
<v Speaker 1>to Incheon to Soeul, to the Chosen Reservoir to the extraction.

555
00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:13.240
<v Speaker 1>And people sometimes bring that up and say, well, the

556
00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:16.519
<v Speaker 1>Chinese really put a hurt on the Marines. Well, it

557
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:20.839
<v Speaker 1>helps if you have ten to one numerical superiority and

558
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:26.759
<v Speaker 1>you attack in a surprise attack and it's thirty below

559
00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:30.680
<v Speaker 1>zero and you have overwhelming manpower. And what the Marines

560
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:34.559
<v Speaker 1>did is it's considered a glorious battle in marine history.

561
00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:39.720
<v Speaker 1>Is they withstood that assault, maintained unit cohesion, and took

562
00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:44.160
<v Speaker 1>everybody home basically that could get there. I think he

563
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:46.440
<v Speaker 1>must have weighed one hundred and twenty pounds by the

564
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:52.119
<v Speaker 1>time he landed after they came back. So China doesn't

565
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:55.759
<v Speaker 1>have a great track record. They can fight civil wars,

566
00:33:55.839 --> 00:34:00.480
<v Speaker 1>then their civil wars are astoundingly bloody. I like to

567
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:03.119
<v Speaker 1>point out General Gordon beat them with a swagger stick.

568
00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:06.960
<v Speaker 1>That's why he was called Chinese Gorgon's garden. Right before

569
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:10.880
<v Speaker 1>he got killed at Khartoon, the Japanese beat them twice

570
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:14.119
<v Speaker 1>in the nineteen thirties with a platoon of Katana swordsmen

571
00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:17.039
<v Speaker 1>and some sushi. I don't know what they did, but

572
00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:21.480
<v Speaker 1>they beat China twice. So I don't think they're a

573
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:24.480
<v Speaker 1>good military power. I think they're building a lot of stuff,

574
00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:27.800
<v Speaker 1>but we know the quality of what they build is bad.

575
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:32.039
<v Speaker 1>The Africans are finding out now that it's a faustian

576
00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:35.280
<v Speaker 1>bargain when you let them in to build dams that collapse,

577
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:39.599
<v Speaker 1>some roads that don't work, and nothing works. And I

578
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:43.719
<v Speaker 1>also have been told by some people that much of

579
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:46.760
<v Speaker 1>the technology that they have stolen in order to produce

580
00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:48.880
<v Speaker 1>their stuff is booby trapped.

581
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:50.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh I hope. So. I mean, you know, we did

582
00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:52.480
<v Speaker 2>a little of that with the Soviet Union way back

583
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:53.400
<v Speaker 2>once upon a time.

584
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:56.559
<v Speaker 1>If they launched those ships, they're going right down to

585
00:34:56.599 --> 00:35:00.679
<v Speaker 1>the bottom of the oce Interesting. Yeah, I know a

586
00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:03.079
<v Speaker 1>lot of our colleagues are obsessed with China, and Frank

587
00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:05.519
<v Speaker 1>Afrin I have this argument all the time. I just

588
00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:08.760
<v Speaker 1>have other things to worry about then the Chinese.

589
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:11.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, me too. Let's switch to Ireland a little bit,

590
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:14.679
<v Speaker 2>because you not only are of Irish descent, but you

591
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:17.039
<v Speaker 2>live what half the year over there or some good

592
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:19.760
<v Speaker 2>portion of your time out in the remind me where

593
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:21.760
<v Speaker 2>it is out in western Ireland. You have a residence.

594
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:26.320
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I rebuilt my great grandmother's birthplace. It's now a

595
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:30.199
<v Speaker 1>beautiful home where my wife lives much of the year,

596
00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:36.840
<v Speaker 1>where my daughter met her husband and married him. He's

597
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:41.039
<v Speaker 1>a Dubliner, and where my three grandchildren come and play.

598
00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:41.880
<v Speaker 2>Right.

599
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:45.480
<v Speaker 1>It's in a wild, wild part of the west called

600
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:48.800
<v Speaker 1>the Burn, which doesn't look like any other place in Ireland.

601
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:52.039
<v Speaker 1>It looks like the moon. It's all rocks. But right

602
00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:54.280
<v Speaker 1>out my window are the cliffs of More the Three

603
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:58.159
<v Speaker 1>Aarn Islands, the Atlantic Ocean at Galway Bay in the

604
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:01.159
<v Speaker 1>hills of Conamaras. So someone wants overlooked out our dining

605
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.440
<v Speaker 1>room window and said, you know, there are five six

606
00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:05.679
<v Speaker 1>sights everybody comes to Ireland to see, and five of

607
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:09.000
<v Speaker 1>them are right out your window. Right, So I like

608
00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:13.599
<v Speaker 1>grandma there, But it's I've been. I went back and

609
00:36:13.639 --> 00:36:19.559
<v Speaker 1>reunited the family is fifty two years ago and since

610
00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:22.960
<v Speaker 1>then acquired the property, built the houses, really established a

611
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:24.239
<v Speaker 1>whole life there.

612
00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:24.440
<v Speaker 4>Now.

613
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:27.159
<v Speaker 1>In fact, my whole my white daughter is is Her

614
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:30.639
<v Speaker 1>ashes are buried there too, So it means a lot

615
00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:33.119
<v Speaker 1>to me. So it's not just that I'm some returned

616
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:37.000
<v Speaker 1>to Yank who has what thinks his family came from Cork,

617
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:39.400
<v Speaker 1>which is what they all say when you ask them,

618
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:42.679
<v Speaker 1>where did your family come from Cork? The reason they

619
00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.960
<v Speaker 1>say that is that Cork is where the boat's left from.

620
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Ah.

621
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:49.280
<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, that's the way the Irish think, By the way,

622
00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:52.519
<v Speaker 1>it's the kind of Celtic way of thinking. Specific that

623
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:55.679
<v Speaker 1>question means where did I literally come from to get

624
00:36:55.719 --> 00:36:58.840
<v Speaker 1>to the United States. Cork is always the answer, right.

625
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:04.079
<v Speaker 2>So you know, I was in Ireland for almost ten days,

626
00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:06.599
<v Speaker 2>about a month and a half ago, and I happened

627
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:09.000
<v Speaker 2>to be in Dublin on a day when there was

628
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:12.119
<v Speaker 2>a large protest against immigration. I'm not quite sure who

629
00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:14.920
<v Speaker 2>the umbrella group was, but and then there was the

630
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:18.000
<v Speaker 2>lefties organized the counter protests that was small and pathetic,

631
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:20.159
<v Speaker 2>and communists, I mean, they're very open about it. But

632
00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:22.519
<v Speaker 2>I have to say I was impressed by the size

633
00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:25.880
<v Speaker 2>of the protest. I mean, the march stretched for I

634
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:27.960
<v Speaker 2>don't know ten or fifteen blocks, I forget what that

635
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:30.360
<v Speaker 2>main street is, and that ended up in a rally

636
00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:33.079
<v Speaker 2>in front of the customs house where the speakers, and

637
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:35.000
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't familiar with any of them, but I listened

638
00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:36.920
<v Speaker 2>to their speeches and I thought they were all very good.

639
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:40.719
<v Speaker 2>These were crazy people. The crowd was very diverse, as

640
00:37:40.840 --> 00:37:42.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, as we were supposed to. We're taught that

641
00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:45.199
<v Speaker 2>we have to a factor into things these days, and

642
00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:47.800
<v Speaker 2>so I got the sense that, you know, there is

643
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:49.880
<v Speaker 2>not a lot of press coverage of Ireland and the

644
00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:52.159
<v Speaker 2>American media, and you've got to work to find it

645
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:55.079
<v Speaker 2>in you know, the British press or the Economist, which

646
00:37:55.119 --> 00:37:59.920
<v Speaker 2>is you know, no good of course. And then someone

647
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:02.280
<v Speaker 2>told me just this morning about a tweet that apparently

648
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:05.880
<v Speaker 2>is exploding on x as we call it now today

649
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:08.280
<v Speaker 2>as we're talking, and it goes something like this. I

650
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:11.000
<v Speaker 2>couldn't find it, but apparently it says something like, if

651
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:13.639
<v Speaker 2>you're an American visiting Ireland and you say I'm Irish,

652
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:16.679
<v Speaker 2>they say, no, you're not. But if you're Somali fresh

653
00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:18.960
<v Speaker 2>off the boat twenty minutes ago, oh of course you're

654
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:22.480
<v Speaker 2>an irishman. So this question seems to me is you're

655
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:24.559
<v Speaker 2>splitting Ireland down the middle, as it ought to and

656
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:28.400
<v Speaker 2>as it is other places. What's your sense of the matter. Okay,

657
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:30.239
<v Speaker 2>go ahead.

658
00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:34.679
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, it's complicated, but cause it's Ireland, you know, among

659
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:39.360
<v Speaker 1>the most disputatious people in the world. It's very simple.

660
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:42.639
<v Speaker 1>Ireland is a slave state for eight hundred years. It

661
00:38:42.679 --> 00:38:46.800
<v Speaker 1>has lived in a bubble. It has no experience of

662
00:38:46.840 --> 00:38:50.320
<v Speaker 1>the outside world except that it sent its sons and

663
00:38:50.440 --> 00:38:59.159
<v Speaker 1>daughters abroad, where they became tremendously successful, wealthy, famous movie stars.

664
00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:03.119
<v Speaker 1>Captains have been to street titans of Hollywood, politicians presidents

665
00:39:03.159 --> 00:39:08.800
<v Speaker 1>of the United States, Ireland nothing and a certain resentment

666
00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:13.440
<v Speaker 1>has grown up on both parts that the returned Yanks

667
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:17.239
<v Speaker 1>come back and say I'm Irish, and the Irish say,

668
00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:20.679
<v Speaker 1>you are the son of a bitch who abandoned us

669
00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:26.000
<v Speaker 1>to the family. We hate you. You left us in

670
00:39:26.039 --> 00:39:29.280
<v Speaker 1>our hour of need. Whether they articulate that or not,

671
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:34.599
<v Speaker 1>is that is the undercurrent. So they really hate the

672
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:38.159
<v Speaker 1>diaspora of people like me and a lot of my friends,

673
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:43.320
<v Speaker 1>and they have rushed because they're a slave state still

674
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:46.039
<v Speaker 1>they now slave state of the what I like to

675
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:53.679
<v Speaker 1>call the eussr under ilsa she wolf of Brussels there who,

676
00:39:53.679 --> 00:39:56.239
<v Speaker 1>by the way, has never been elected to anything. Yeah,

677
00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:59.599
<v Speaker 1>the Irish politicians have all sold out to Brussels. And

678
00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:02.280
<v Speaker 1>so when people say, well don't they why aren't they

679
00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:05.360
<v Speaker 1>helping the Irish people, I tell them that's not their job.

680
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:08.079
<v Speaker 1>Their job is to answer to Brussels. They don't care

681
00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:11.679
<v Speaker 1>what happens to you. The population has increased by a

682
00:40:11.719 --> 00:40:14.639
<v Speaker 1>million and a half of a very short span of time.

683
00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:18.960
<v Speaker 1>Most of them are not ethnic Irish. But to say

684
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:23.360
<v Speaker 1>ethnic Irish is to be a racist. The word they

685
00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:27.400
<v Speaker 1>most fear is racism. So if you don't think that's

686
00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:31.440
<v Speaker 1>Somali who, by the way, destroyed his passport on the plane,

687
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:38.000
<v Speaker 1>walked through customs waving and was immediately given food, shelter, money,

688
00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:42.920
<v Speaker 1>you name it, you're a racist. My village happens to

689
00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:46.079
<v Speaker 1>be the one that took the first first wave of

690
00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:51.000
<v Speaker 1>Ukrainian refugees. They put them in where a tourists town

691
00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:54.400
<v Speaker 1>and in the summer, hotels were all filled with tourists.

692
00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:57.960
<v Speaker 1>Now they're filled with Ukrainians and they don't have to

693
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:01.039
<v Speaker 1>obey the laws, they don't have to register of their cars.

694
00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:03.840
<v Speaker 1>They get free money every week and you see them

695
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:07.360
<v Speaker 1>lining up of the post office. And these are able

696
00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:11.280
<v Speaker 1>bodied draft dodgers, that's what they are. And there's no

697
00:41:11.719 --> 00:41:16.239
<v Speaker 1>sugarcoating it. And They laugh at everybody because they're sitting

698
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:20.880
<v Speaker 1>there free. Yes it's raining, the weather is terrible, famously so,

699
00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:24.840
<v Speaker 1>but they're collecting free money and they're going to do

700
00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:26.880
<v Speaker 1>it for as long as they can get away with it.

701
00:41:26.920 --> 00:41:30.960
<v Speaker 1>And as soon as they leave, you'll see even greater

702
00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:38.400
<v Speaker 1>influx from Africa, North Africa, Central Africa, Afghanistan. Romanian Gypsies

703
00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:43.039
<v Speaker 1>are now quite prominent in the criminal subculture of Dublin.

704
00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:47.199
<v Speaker 1>We just have one now that turns out the father

705
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:52.719
<v Speaker 1>is the head of the Roma Community Civil Rights League

706
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:56.880
<v Speaker 1>or something, and the Sun is running eight brothels in

707
00:41:56.960 --> 00:42:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Dublin and the Irish shirts done by this because they

708
00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:05.480
<v Speaker 1>have no experience with the world. They really believe all

709
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:07.920
<v Speaker 1>of the problem that they have been fed about the

710
00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:10.360
<v Speaker 1>goodness of man and the brotherhood of man. And we're

711
00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:11.599
<v Speaker 1>all exactly the same.

712
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:12.480
<v Speaker 2>You know.

713
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:15.400
<v Speaker 1>It's like being trapped in the nineteen sixties in America.

714
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:19.320
<v Speaker 1>Their brief and you feel sorry for them because they're

715
00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:21.320
<v Speaker 1>going to have to learn the hard way. But that

716
00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:24.559
<v Speaker 1>government is never going to stop. It's never going to

717
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:30.119
<v Speaker 1>stop importing foreigners because the EU, US Ireland is basically

718
00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:33.920
<v Speaker 1>empty space and it's a dumping ground for the EU's

719
00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:39.199
<v Speaker 1>migration problems, so you can't walk to Ireland, so you've

720
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:42.320
<v Speaker 1>got to come by boter by plane and they'll just

721
00:42:42.440 --> 00:42:45.800
<v Speaker 1>keep They literally fly them in the government advertised in

722
00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:48.679
<v Speaker 1>Africa for people to get on planes and come to

723
00:42:48.760 --> 00:42:51.719
<v Speaker 1>Ireland at government expense to stay and live.

724
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:55.039
<v Speaker 2>For Yeah, I mean I should add that the protest

725
00:42:55.039 --> 00:42:57.400
<v Speaker 2>I saw the species. It wasn't just immigration, it was

726
00:42:57.480 --> 00:42:59.880
<v Speaker 2>the European Union in Brussels. In fact, some of them,

727
00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:05.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, paraphrase slightly. London's not our enemy anymore. Brussels

728
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:05.920
<v Speaker 2>is our enemy.

729
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:09.079
<v Speaker 1>That's the point. That's the point. They're still obsessed with

730
00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:13.639
<v Speaker 1>this stupid trouble stuff. Yeah. And as an Irish American,

731
00:43:13.719 --> 00:43:15.719
<v Speaker 1>let me say this to all of our Jewish friends,

732
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:17.920
<v Speaker 1>and you and I have lots of Jewish friends. The

733
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:23.599
<v Speaker 1>anti Semitism is a disgrace to irishmen everywhere. That what

734
00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:27.960
<v Speaker 1>that government is doing passing the occupied territories build which

735
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:32.320
<v Speaker 1>amounts to a gnat on a water buffalo's rear end

736
00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:37.880
<v Speaker 1>nothing but it's pure virtue signaling. They are constantly slagging

737
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:41.840
<v Speaker 1>off the Israelis. The Israel closed its embassy in Dublin

738
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:44.960
<v Speaker 1>because it couldn't take it anymore. And the Irish just

739
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.599
<v Speaker 1>see see that's more proof of these perfidious Jews. Look

740
00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:50.360
<v Speaker 1>what they're doing. You can't trust them. They're everywhere, they

741
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:55.320
<v Speaker 1>run the way. It's a mass outbreak events of insanity,

742
00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:59.920
<v Speaker 1>and it is incredibly disgraceful. And I'm pleased to say

743
00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:04.639
<v Speaker 1>there are a number of US diasporans with audiences and

744
00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:12.039
<v Speaker 1>money and influence who are going to organize against this

745
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:15.760
<v Speaker 1>because we don't want to see Ireland go down the drain.

746
00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:19.760
<v Speaker 1>It didn't suffer under the English terribly for eight hundred years,

747
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:23.880
<v Speaker 1>only to throw itself in the arms of Brussels. You know,

748
00:44:24.360 --> 00:44:27.519
<v Speaker 1>it's like that line from Man for all Season, I

749
00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:30.239
<v Speaker 1>could see selling your soul. But for Wales, you know,

750
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:34.920
<v Speaker 1>basically eight hundred years of fighting the British, who were

751
00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:41.239
<v Speaker 1>a real worthy opponent. But for Brussels, King Leopold, who

752
00:44:41.239 --> 00:44:44.639
<v Speaker 1>are we talking about here? It's really stunning. I'm glad

753
00:44:44.679 --> 00:44:47.000
<v Speaker 1>you had a good time and some of Ireland. Dublin's

754
00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:49.280
<v Speaker 1>never been a very nice city and it's worse now.

755
00:44:49.639 --> 00:44:52.400
<v Speaker 1>The rest of the country is great. It's beautiful. If

756
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:55.960
<v Speaker 1>you can take the weather, it's paradise and I love

757
00:44:56.320 --> 00:45:01.400
<v Speaker 1>every second that I'm there, but the governments anti Semitism

758
00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:05.440
<v Speaker 1>and its hatred of its own people is just unacceptable.

759
00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:08.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So I have two exit questions for you, one

760
00:45:08.599 --> 00:45:11.079
<v Speaker 2>about your next book and then one about music and

761
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:13.800
<v Speaker 2>how they may connect together in a certain way. So

762
00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:17.159
<v Speaker 2>you said that you're writing yet another what a sequel

763
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:19.159
<v Speaker 2>to this book in your last book? I guess there'll

764
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:22.360
<v Speaker 2>be book number twenty. Tell us a little bit about

765
00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:24.320
<v Speaker 2>what that book's going to be about, and maybe one

766
00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:26.320
<v Speaker 2>or two things to look for.

767
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:30.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's called The Wrath of God and it's about

768
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:35.360
<v Speaker 1>the history of religious warfare. So when religions and people's

769
00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:43.360
<v Speaker 1>clash so specifically because of faith. So I mentioned the Exodus,

770
00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:48.440
<v Speaker 1>for example, the foundation story of the Israelites and taking

771
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:52.880
<v Speaker 1>the land of Canaan at God's command very violently. By

772
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:56.000
<v Speaker 1>the way, I'm going to treat the Thirty Years War,

773
00:45:56.559 --> 00:45:59.599
<v Speaker 1>which you know, contrary to the notion that civilians never

774
00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:02.599
<v Speaker 1>suffer and wars, the Thirty Years of War reduced the

775
00:46:02.599 --> 00:46:05.840
<v Speaker 1>population of Europe by about fifty percent. I mean, nobody

776
00:46:06.039 --> 00:46:09.599
<v Speaker 1>was free from that, and that was purely brand new

777
00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:16.360
<v Speaker 1>faith Lutheranism taking on Catholicism. I treated the Sack of

778
00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:20.400
<v Speaker 1>Rome in the sixteenth century by the Lutherans and the

779
00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:23.199
<v Speaker 1>Swiss guards, saving the pope and rushing him to the

780
00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:27.920
<v Speaker 1>Castel San Angelo in last stance. But these, and of

781
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:31.599
<v Speaker 1>course the ongoing battle between Islam and the United States.

782
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:36.039
<v Speaker 1>Our problem has always been in bush well, starting with it,

783
00:46:36.119 --> 00:46:39.639
<v Speaker 1>both bushes, but the notion that there's no state actors,

784
00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:41.519
<v Speaker 1>so we have no one to punish. As I said,

785
00:46:41.559 --> 00:46:45.039
<v Speaker 1>Caesar would laughed in that. Yeah, I see one right there,

786
00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:48.559
<v Speaker 1>and that's what he would have done. And we don't

787
00:46:48.599 --> 00:46:51.280
<v Speaker 1>fight the enemy that has declared war on us because

788
00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:56.679
<v Speaker 1>Islam doesn't have a pope, so any mufty can issue

789
00:46:56.719 --> 00:47:00.159
<v Speaker 1>a fat law that is like a federal gey parent

790
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:04.280
<v Speaker 1>binding on the entire planet, right, even though the judges

791
00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:05.760
<v Speaker 1>in Honolulu.

792
00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:06.920
<v Speaker 2>Right. So it's an.

793
00:47:06.840 --> 00:47:09.719
<v Speaker 1>Asymmetric war that we haven't figured out how to fight yet,

794
00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:11.519
<v Speaker 1>but we need to focus on it.

795
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:13.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, let me do a follow up question on that,

796
00:47:13.519 --> 00:47:17.760
<v Speaker 2>because since your book came out, well, I think somewhere

797
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:19.679
<v Speaker 2>in here and I can't find it as I flipped

798
00:47:19.679 --> 00:47:21.599
<v Speaker 2>through the pages, I thought you said something about how

799
00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:25.679
<v Speaker 2>we've never seriously struck at the sort of central node

800
00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:29.800
<v Speaker 2>of this which is Iran. Now, since your book was printed.

801
00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:32.519
<v Speaker 2>We've had Israel have its twelve day war against Iran

802
00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:36.440
<v Speaker 2>that culminated with Trump deciding we will use these weapons

803
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:38.480
<v Speaker 2>we've been developing for twenty years to try and take

804
00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:46.320
<v Speaker 2>out their main nuclear weapons development facility. What do you

805
00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:47.960
<v Speaker 2>make of all that? As it was, we did not

806
00:47:48.039 --> 00:47:50.360
<v Speaker 2>go far enough. But isn't that a sign at least somebody,

807
00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:52.199
<v Speaker 2>at least Israel standing up for the West.

808
00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:54.639
<v Speaker 1>Well, Israel is standing up for the West. And I

809
00:47:54.679 --> 00:47:57.719
<v Speaker 1>support the Israel least because they didn't start this fight.

810
00:47:57.880 --> 00:48:03.880
<v Speaker 1>And that's the point. It's so hard to make this point.

811
00:48:03.960 --> 00:48:10.079
<v Speaker 1>But Islam fetishizes buildings. So if the Kaba is gone

812
00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:13.840
<v Speaker 1>and the well that jam Karan is gone, Islam is gone.

813
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:17.960
<v Speaker 1>You can destroy Saint Peter's church and the pope will

814
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:23.159
<v Speaker 1>go live in Avenue. Catholicism cannot be destroyed by bombing,

815
00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:27.840
<v Speaker 1>even setting Notre Dame on fire, which they did right.

816
00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:32.039
<v Speaker 1>But Islam is focused on places, so the pilgrimage, the

817
00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:35.719
<v Speaker 1>Hajj is very important. The Shia version is that down

818
00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:41.800
<v Speaker 1>this well in Kum is hidden the twelfth Ebom who

819
00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:46.159
<v Speaker 1>Will is waiting for the It's an apocalyptic version. It's

820
00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:49.280
<v Speaker 1>he will emerge at the time of complete chaos and

821
00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:52.599
<v Speaker 1>convert the world to Islam, and that will be the

822
00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:56.559
<v Speaker 1>end times. So the radical Christians have the same basic

823
00:48:56.760 --> 00:49:00.800
<v Speaker 1>theology about end times and then Jesus appearing and that's

824
00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:04.000
<v Speaker 1>the end of the movie. But we won't go after

825
00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:08.639
<v Speaker 1>their buildings because that's not who we are. And that's

826
00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:11.840
<v Speaker 1>giving up the fight before you even have the fight.

827
00:49:12.599 --> 00:49:16.400
<v Speaker 1>That's the problem. Now, if Islam promises to stay like

828
00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:20.840
<v Speaker 1>a good enemy behind its own borders, we don't have

829
00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:23.719
<v Speaker 1>a particular problem with them, and the Europeans have learned

830
00:49:23.719 --> 00:49:26.159
<v Speaker 1>how to deal with that since stopping them at Vienna

831
00:49:26.199 --> 00:49:30.400
<v Speaker 1>in the seventeenth century. But you can't have constant encouragions

832
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:33.320
<v Speaker 1>and provocations. And that was why I made the point

833
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:36.320
<v Speaker 1>about what Romans would do. Because Rome didn't last for

834
00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:40.320
<v Speaker 1>two thousand years for nothing. It had a will to

835
00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:45.639
<v Speaker 1>survive in a way that no other major civilization has

836
00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:49.000
<v Speaker 1>ever had, and it took action when it felt it needed.

837
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:52.760
<v Speaker 1>Is that kind of an apologist for Rome? Yeah, absolutely

838
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:58.199
<v Speaker 1>it is. I think Roman civilization was great and well

839
00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:00.559
<v Speaker 1>our existence to it well.

840
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:02.639
<v Speaker 2>I do like seeing the sort of comeback of the

841
00:50:02.760 --> 00:50:06.320
<v Speaker 2>Roman Empire among especially young men. These days that hear about.

842
00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:11.639
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I think that's the best marine ever. Uh, he's

843
00:50:11.679 --> 00:50:13.840
<v Speaker 1>probably thinking about other women. No, he's thinking about the

844
00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:18.239
<v Speaker 1>Roman Empire. Well, I think young men need that, and

845
00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:21.840
<v Speaker 1>I think this book I've written part for young men again.

846
00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:23.840
<v Speaker 1>I grew up in the Marine Corps. I was born

847
00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:26.639
<v Speaker 1>on a major Marine Corps base and I was the

848
00:50:26.679 --> 00:50:29.559
<v Speaker 1>son of a guy who had just come back from

849
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:35.679
<v Speaker 1>from from Korea, highly decorated marine officer. So that was

850
00:50:35.719 --> 00:50:39.400
<v Speaker 1>the tradition in which I grew up and it wasn't militarized.

851
00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:41.480
<v Speaker 1>And my father I don't even know what his politics are,

852
00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:45.280
<v Speaker 1>I literally don't, but what he incultated in me and

853
00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:48.159
<v Speaker 1>my brother and my three sisters is discipline.

854
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:49.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

855
00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:53.199
<v Speaker 1>I asked him once, Uh, what was your Were you

856
00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:55.880
<v Speaker 1>afraid when the Chinese came down the hill on the

857
00:50:56.000 --> 00:51:00.639
<v Speaker 1>day after Thanksgiving and attack? Uh? And he said, first

858
00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:01.880
<v Speaker 1>of all, I thought it was going to hit me.

859
00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:04.519
<v Speaker 1>And even though he's ninety nine, I still stay well

860
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:08.320
<v Speaker 1>back from him because that left hook as a killer.

861
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:13.960
<v Speaker 1>He said. We went to work, and I finally understood

862
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:16.440
<v Speaker 1>what that meant years later, which is we're trained to

863
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:20.559
<v Speaker 1>do this. And the way marines are trained is here's

864
00:51:20.599 --> 00:51:25.079
<v Speaker 1>your training. If you're in trouble, observe your training. If

865
00:51:25.079 --> 00:51:28.719
<v Speaker 1>you abandon your training, you're dead. If you observe your training,

866
00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:30.960
<v Speaker 1>you have a chance to get out alive. So what

867
00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:34.280
<v Speaker 1>they did was they immediately formed into their jobs. He

868
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:39.280
<v Speaker 1>commanded mortar platoons and began saturating the fields between the

869
00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:43.440
<v Speaker 1>Chinese and the Marines to keep them backed off, and

870
00:51:43.519 --> 00:51:47.719
<v Speaker 1>nobody panicked, and they all picked up and tried to

871
00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:50.559
<v Speaker 1>get out of the pickle they were in. So it's

872
00:51:50.599 --> 00:51:53.920
<v Speaker 1>all about a military background. It's not about killing people.

873
00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:57.519
<v Speaker 1>It's about discipline and getting your work done. I wouldn't

874
00:51:57.519 --> 00:51:59.440
<v Speaker 1>have written twenty well, this is going to be twenty

875
00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:01.800
<v Speaker 1>and then there's twenty one, and then there's twenty two.

876
00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:05.280
<v Speaker 1>So they're all in the planning. It's just discipline that

877
00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:08.760
<v Speaker 1>gets it done. You know, you can't shop down the

878
00:52:08.760 --> 00:52:10.719
<v Speaker 1>tree with one blow, and you can't hit a five

879
00:52:10.840 --> 00:52:14.119
<v Speaker 1>run homer. You have to do it every single day.

880
00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:17.639
<v Speaker 2>Right. Yeah, So last question comes in two parts, and

881
00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:19.800
<v Speaker 2>I call it the other side of Michael Walsh. You

882
00:52:19.880 --> 00:52:24.719
<v Speaker 2>have serious formal training in music. Yes, I've noticed. I

883
00:52:24.760 --> 00:52:27.639
<v Speaker 2>think I've noticed the influence of that in your writing.

884
00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:29.639
<v Speaker 2>I think in particular of your couple of books on

885
00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:32.719
<v Speaker 2>the Frankfurt School, which gets much more at the cultural

886
00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:35.760
<v Speaker 2>aspects of that whole thing and whole influence than the

887
00:52:35.960 --> 00:52:38.719
<v Speaker 2>political philosophy parts that narrow people like me think of.

888
00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:41.960
<v Speaker 2>And so the first part of the question is, is

889
00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:44.679
<v Speaker 2>am I right in saying that there's an essential connection

890
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:48.400
<v Speaker 2>with the way you perceive certain things with your musical training.

891
00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:51.360
<v Speaker 2>And part two is you're serious composer, and maybe say

892
00:52:51.400 --> 00:52:53.559
<v Speaker 2>this a little bit about I think you're working on

893
00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:55.440
<v Speaker 2>a piece or maybe you've done a piece you're performing

894
00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:58.440
<v Speaker 2>in Europe recently, So anyway to take both parts of

895
00:52:58.440 --> 00:52:59.079
<v Speaker 2>those if you would.

896
00:52:59.079 --> 00:53:03.519
<v Speaker 1>And to the Eastman School of Music, among whose graduates

897
00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:07.400
<v Speaker 1>is the late Chuck Man Jones, who just died yesterday.

898
00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:09.960
<v Speaker 1>I guess I knew Chuck a little bit. He was

899
00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:13.159
<v Speaker 1>about ten years ahead of me, I think. At Eastman

900
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:17.719
<v Speaker 1>Renee Fleming, the great opera Sopranos, friend of mine. She's

901
00:53:17.800 --> 00:53:22.199
<v Speaker 1>also a graduate of the Eastman School of Music. I'm

902
00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:24.599
<v Speaker 1>not a composer anymore. I was in college, but that

903
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:27.639
<v Speaker 1>was not my calling. But I you know, I did it,

904
00:53:27.679 --> 00:53:30.119
<v Speaker 1>and I learned a lot from it as a writer.

905
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:33.880
<v Speaker 1>So I'll be playing the program of mostly Franz List

906
00:53:34.039 --> 00:53:38.000
<v Speaker 1>at the Brand Library in Glendale. It will also consist

907
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:42.360
<v Speaker 1>of a very rarely performed sonata by Wagner, who was

908
00:53:42.440 --> 00:53:46.920
<v Speaker 1>Liszt's son in law, so it was a lecture recital

909
00:53:46.960 --> 00:53:49.280
<v Speaker 1>but mostly a recital. And then I'll be playing it

910
00:53:49.320 --> 00:53:53.320
<v Speaker 1>in London at the List Cultural Institute of the Hungarian

911
00:53:53.320 --> 00:53:55.719
<v Speaker 1>Government in London, and then I'll be playing it in

912
00:53:55.760 --> 00:54:02.559
<v Speaker 1>Budapest's lists third hometown as well in November. But I'm

913
00:54:02.559 --> 00:54:05.559
<v Speaker 1>writing a very large novel which has been in plan

914
00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:09.039
<v Speaker 1>now for two or three years, which will incorporate music

915
00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:13.320
<v Speaker 1>of all kinds into the fabric of the narrative. I

916
00:54:13.400 --> 00:54:20.280
<v Speaker 1>see them as essentially the same activity, writing and putting

917
00:54:20.360 --> 00:54:24.559
<v Speaker 1>the piano, and it's just kind of sums up everything

918
00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:26.920
<v Speaker 1>I've devoted my life to. And hopefully that will be

919
00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:29.679
<v Speaker 1>the last book I write, Steve, and then I'll retire

920
00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:35.039
<v Speaker 1>to my jack in Ireland, I guess right, yeah.

921
00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:36.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, well thanks for this, Michael. This has been a

922
00:54:36.920 --> 00:54:39.639
<v Speaker 2>fun tour of the of a part of your horizon,

923
00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:42.280
<v Speaker 2>and I'll look forward to that next book and in

924
00:54:42.320 --> 00:54:44.960
<v Speaker 2>the meantime, a best of luck to rage to conquer,

925
00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:48.679
<v Speaker 2>and I don't know. I may or may not be

926
00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:51.480
<v Speaker 2>around the LA area one of those appearances, or I'll

927
00:54:51.559 --> 00:54:53.480
<v Speaker 2>find an excuse to go to Budapest and hang out

928
00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:56.079
<v Speaker 2>with our mutual friend John O'Sullivan. Oh absolutely, you know

929
00:54:56.400 --> 00:54:58.559
<v Speaker 2>opens and closes the town there, right, I mean it's

930
00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:00.239
<v Speaker 2>always fun seeing John and Melissa there.

931
00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:02.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, you will certainly know where to eat when you

932
00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:04.519
<v Speaker 1>go to boot that's right.

933
00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:07.639
<v Speaker 2>I blame John for the fact that I've gotten larger

934
00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:12.000
<v Speaker 2>than a few years ago. Anyway, Thank you, Michael, good luck,

935
00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:13.039
<v Speaker 2>see you soon. Welcome.

936
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:19.679
<v Speaker 4>I thought it would be real me. I thought it

937
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:24.519
<v Speaker 4>would be real cool, Bob, because my dad's get tired.

938
00:55:26.079 --> 00:55:28.039
<v Speaker 2>Learn me some Irish tunes.

939
00:55:29.559 --> 00:55:34.760
<v Speaker 4>Blame for a couple of friends. That's some little Polish far,

940
00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:38.199
<v Speaker 4>a little whiskey and the jar.

941
00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:44.320
<v Speaker 2>I never thought it go so far. So why are

942
00:55:44.360 --> 00:55:51.320
<v Speaker 2>you onna bring me down? Because I'm not from my Ireland.

943
00:55:51.440 --> 00:55:58.559
<v Speaker 4>I'm from Allen Town. I something drumming. I risk girl,

944
00:55:59.719 --> 00:56:04.039
<v Speaker 4>she give you her second show, and I am scaring

945
00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:07.920
<v Speaker 4>of somebody to say she's gonna.

946
00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:08.360
<v Speaker 2>Let you know.

947
00:56:09.880 --> 00:56:15.360
<v Speaker 4>She said she was very fond your volume up to ten.

948
00:56:16.239 --> 00:56:20.920
<v Speaker 2>I didn't buy. Ricochet joined the conversation