WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.040 Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah bla 2 00:00:02.040 --> 00:00:03.839 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 3 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:13.640 blah blah blah blah. Welcome everybody here, we go open 4 00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:21.199 for him. Welcome to Colin. The topics are the coke videos, 5 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:26.879 cope for the Pope. I've not watched these. I watched 6 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:30.679 a couple response videos from our boys, so I did 7 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:34.719 see our buddy Alex Soren did a good video here 8 00:00:34.759 --> 00:00:39.280 responding to Joel Heshmeier. It's a forty minute video. If 9 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:42.520 you want the full response, you can check it out 10 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:45.920 right there. So I'll play a little bit of this one, 11 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:51.159 but I think Brian has a much bigger channel. So 12 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:53.640 let's hear what the arguments that we're hearing this time 13 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:57.679 around from Brian Holdsworth are. And as you guys probably 14 00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:00.479 have noticed, you get a new round of why I'm 15 00:01:00.520 --> 00:01:04.040 not Orthodox videos from the pap apologists anytime there's a 16 00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:09.519 significant debate, loss, scandal, or challenge to their position. If 17 00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:14.560 you remember some years back, when we heard Francis doing 18 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:18.480 all of his skittle stuff, we had to have Matt 19 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:21.159 Frad and Holdsworth and everybody kind of go out and 20 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:27.599 do the commiserating cope sessions that they do. Recently, we've 21 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:30.200 had a bad few months of Roman Catholicism in terms 22 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:34.159 of public debates, because we had the Trench Doherty breakdowns 23 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:40.359 and crashouts on multiple debates where he screamed, yelled, cussed, 24 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:43.760 threatened to fight, and all because he wanted to defend it, 25 00:01:43.879 --> 00:01:49.640 not just gay Catholics literally, but also to defend the 26 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:53.640 idea that Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship quote unquote 27 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:58.079 the same God, to defend the Vatican two texts. Now 28 00:01:58.120 --> 00:02:03.200 we've had the more recent three part four five hour 29 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:06.400 debate between me and Tim Gordon, which seventy five percent 30 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:10.159 of the audience agreed Tim Gordon lost. Tim Gordon himself 31 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:12.400 conceded a couple things at the end of the debate. 32 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:16.319 But now Tim's back on YouTube and on Twitter asking 33 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:20.360 Chad Gpt to prove I'm not kidding that he actually 34 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:27.840 won the debate somehow. What yeah, exactly? To me, that 35 00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:32.960 actually signifies their grasping of straws because they know they're 36 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:35.759 not doing well. But now in their mind, this is 37 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:39.199 actually proof that I lost the debate. Turns out even 38 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:42.360 though Tim conceded the Philly Okoy section and after the 39 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:45.479 debate privately conceded to me that I was actually correct 40 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:49.800 about universal magisterium and he was misunderstanding it. No, actually 41 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:53.439 that's all wrong. Turns out I lost all of the 42 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:58.479 debate and the papist won. So we're not going to 43 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:00.199 do a debate review because I don't need to do 44 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:02.639 a debate review. We may do one for fun with 45 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:05.560 David our hand. But somehow people think that debate reviews 46 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:08.319 you do them when you lose. Debate reviews are just 47 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:10.840 fun to do. It's an easy way to have more content. 48 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:14.879 Doesn't necessarily mean you won't lost or want to do 49 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:18.439 a review of the debate, because you can always discuss 50 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:22.080 questions and topics that didn't get covered. Every debate I've 51 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:26.159 ever done has multiple things that are brought up that, 52 00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:30.080 due to time limitations, actually don't get addressed. So it's 53 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:31.960 just normal to try to address some of the things 54 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:44.719 that didn't there wasn't time to get to. But uh, 55 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:49.080 excuse me, my allergy is going crazy today. I want 56 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:51.599 to note that people a Romecaloch's apear to not be 57 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:56.039 aware that what the exercise of the keys is. They'll 58 00:03:56.039 --> 00:04:00.360 just say keys, keys, keys, keys, keys, and you ask, 59 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:04.120 what are the keys and what does it signify? Well, 60 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:07.120 it turns out in Roman Catholic theology they've actually already 61 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.919 answered this question. If you deal any theological manual for 62 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:13.520 Roman Catholics to explain what the keys. The office of 63 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:16.199 the keys is. It's to preach the Gospel, to remit 64 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:23.040 and retain sins, to exercise jurisdiction, and to there's one 65 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:26.959 I'm forgetting, oh, offer the sacraments. That's the exercise of 66 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:32.199 the keys. That's it. There's nothing beyond that in Roman 67 00:04:32.199 --> 00:04:35.839 Catha theology itself. And when we go to Matthew eighteen 68 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:41.920 two chapters after the statement to Peter, Jesus says to 69 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:45.439 the College of the Apostles, surely I say to you, 70 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:47.879 whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. 71 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:49.759 Whatever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven. 72 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:52.839 And surely I say to you, if you agree two 73 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:56.360 of you agree that my Father is there in agreement 74 00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:00.480 with you. Does this sound like autocracy? Why does he 75 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:03.519 include two or more of you agree? That sounds like 76 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:09.079 communal sinodle ecclesiology. So you notice they take Matthew sixteen 77 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:12.959 out of the holistic context of the rest of the 78 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:15.000 things that are said to the College of the Apostles, 79 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:18.879 and you understand that Matthew eighteen eighteen is the exercising 80 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:23.040 of the keys, and they say, no, no, it's only Peter 81 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:28.639 in Matthew sixteen. But even in their own Catholic theology, 82 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:32.600 the apostles have all of the same functions of the 83 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:35.839 keys the way they define the keys. So then what 84 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:38.800 is it that's supposedly unique. Well, but see Jesus gave 85 00:05:38.839 --> 00:05:42.759 it directly to Peter first. Yes, and that's because Peter 86 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:47.519 is awarded this honor because he first confesses when the 87 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:55.160 apostles are asked. Okay, so notice that I will give 88 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:57.759 you the keys of the kingdom whatever you buy, whatever 89 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:01.519 you lose, is said not just Peter two chapters later, 90 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:05.120 to all of them, and it's Synodyl two chapters later. 91 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:08.759 So what we should gather from this is that I 92 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:15.079 don't take Matthew sixteen in a vacuum, excluding all of 93 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:16.800 the other passages in the texts, in the rest of 94 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:18.959 the New Testament, the rest of Matthew two chapters later. 95 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:21.519 But notice that's exactly what Roman Callack has to do 96 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:27.240 is to take these passages in a vacuum, ignore where 97 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:29.920 it's said the same thing to the rest of the college, 98 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:32.639 and then you ask them, what is it exactly that's 99 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:35.959 here that Peter has that the others don't have. Oh well, 100 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:40.160 actually turns out it's infallibility. Where is that? Oh well, 101 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:45.319 that's your faith, never failing faith? Okay, but Peter's faith 102 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:48.279 did fail three times, and that's why Jesus said feed 103 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:51.240 my sheet three times. Where in any of that is 104 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:56.920 indefectibility and infallibility? Where in Acts fifteen in the Jerusalem 105 00:06:56.920 --> 00:07:06.399 Council is any idea of infallibility and indefectibility. Now, one 106 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:08.360 thing that's interesting that I've noticed from a lot of 107 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:11.920 the Roman calics of late is there's a new angle 108 00:07:11.959 --> 00:07:16.879 they're trying. And this is particularly I guess, successful with 109 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:20.399 paup apologists, because pap apologists are appealing. 110 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:25.879 To low information Catholic people, low information voters, people that 111 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:29.120 it choosing. It's probably not for the best reasons, very 112 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:34.600 low information, low tier converts. If I if I people 113 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.519 a lot of people choosing based on low information, and. 114 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:41.160 That's what we would expect for pop apologists to do. 115 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:45.000 Because they want the broadest appeal. We do very high 116 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.839 tier stuff over here. I don't do the pop stuff. 117 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:51.839 And that's why they've chosen since twenty eighteen to pretty 118 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:58.519 much avoid what I do. And their excuse is he's mean. Now, 119 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:00.560 if you go back to twenty eighteen, when all this 120 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:04.800 really started popping off, Okay, Loton made a huge deal 121 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:08.879 about how mean I was to what because of the 122 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:12.639 original live stream with a Barra. I had asked to 123 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:15.399 borrow many many times, over many many years to do 124 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:17.720 a debate, and Eric said he would not do it, 125 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:21.000 even though we had linked the exchanges on Facebook for 126 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:24.319 hundreds and hundreds of comments for many many years. And 127 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:26.000 I'm like, well, why won't you just do a debate 128 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:28.399 and he said, well, it's got to be on a 129 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:30.240 Catholic channel and all this kind of stuff, and I 130 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:34.039 was just like, yeah, whatever, So there was no neutral ground. 131 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:37.519 And then the reason that original debate happened, and they 132 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.240 never tell you the full story, is they were doing 133 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:44.440 a live stream saying that I would never debate I 134 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:47.559 was too scared to debate a Borro, which was not 135 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:51.759 the case. I simply asked that we do it on 136 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:54.000 a specific topic. On this or that channel, and he 137 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:57.480 didn't like the channels I suggested, and I said, I'll 138 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:00.200 hop on right now and have this argument. When I 139 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:01.639 got on there, I said, I want to talk about 140 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:07.279 Vatican one Vatican two contradictions. That's the strongest arguments against 141 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:11.759 the papers. It shows that obvious, easy contradictions right there. 142 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:14.440 I don't want to talk about that. Let's talk about 143 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.960 the historical evidences. Because this is their stick, is to 144 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:20.080 go through the quote minds, pile up a bunch of 145 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:23.519 quote minds and craft a narrative out of a growing 146 00:09:23.720 --> 00:09:28.000 seed doctrine that turns into a tree that by the eighth, ninth, 147 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:32.960 and tenth centuries she's supposed to prove something, maybe like 148 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:38.039 Vatican one. Well, I don't grant that the quote mind 149 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:41.799 stacking them up proves anything, because as Eric admitted, if 150 00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:45.240 I recall in that debate, if you could show one 151 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:48.799 dogmatic contradiction, then it would invalidate the system exactly. That's 152 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:51.159 all that's ever been needed was one dogmatic contradiction. I 153 00:09:51.159 --> 00:09:56.000 guess what, there's many, there's not just one. And so 154 00:09:56.360 --> 00:09:58.639 what happened after that point was this sort of war 155 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:03.720 that erupted between what was originally a UNI eight channel 156 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:09.279 that had Orthodox and Eastern Catholics on to Lofton booting 157 00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:12.679 Craig Trulia, and then there was a huge bunch of 158 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:16.360 arguments and drama, and then it turned into Lofton just 159 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:19.799 kind of went crazy and was trying to get father 160 00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:23.000 Deacon to frocked and was calling people's churches just just 161 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:25.279 crazy stuff. He sent me a lawsuit like he was 162 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:27.519 gonna assume me for making fun of him. I'm not joking. 163 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:30.279 I've got the emails still where he said he's going 164 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:31.960 to sue me for making fun of him on the internet. 165 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:37.799 And it just turned into a bunch of ridiculousness. And 166 00:10:38.279 --> 00:10:43.000 since that time, other pop apologists have emerged whose channels 167 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:46.480 have grown significantly, like Matt Frad's, And although Matt has 168 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:49.840 hosted UBI there, he's made it very clear because I 169 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:52.679 guess because I impersonated him, I don't know what exactly 170 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:54.960 it is. I made fun of his accident, I make 171 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:57.600 fun of me. I do impersonations of everyone. Oh suddenly 172 00:10:57.679 --> 00:11:00.639 that's too mean, and then we don't enter act with him. 173 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:03.399 He's too mean, which is all just super gay. Dude 174 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:07.000 is so freaking gay. I don't care by the way, 175 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.080 about interacting with him or not. But what they didn't 176 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:13.559 learn in twenty eighteen was that it doesn't work to 177 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:19.080 say he's mean. That's not going to keep people Roman Catholic. 178 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:22.759 And we had waves of converts since then. Tens of 179 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:28.480 thousands of people have become Orthodox since then. And now 180 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:31.399 they're doing the same thing with the latest crop of 181 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:36.039 pop apologists like Brian Holdsworth or like Joel what's his 182 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:40.240 face or whoever. Now I'm not saying that specifically named 183 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:42.519 me these people. I'm saying the tendency is to still 184 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:46.919 say we're not going to interact with him because he's mean. 185 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:50.919 And look how aggressive he was in the Tim Gordon debate. Now, 186 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:54.240 in the Tim Gordon debate, people again Roman Catholics apparently 187 00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:58.039 don't know this. In cross examination, you can interrupt your opponent. 188 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:01.240 We agreed to that. Tim and I both with Elijah 189 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:05.399 before the debate, so their excuse of me interrupting is 190 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:09.600 completely preposterous. Furthermore, Tim interrupted me just as much or 191 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:13.720 more than I interrupted him during the cross examinations, and 192 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:15.799 that was because he was getting really nervous and everybody 193 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:19.120 could see that, and he floundered multiple times in every 194 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:23.120 section of the debate. So why was I being aggressive 195 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:25.480 Because I debate in an aggressive way and aggressive style 196 00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:27.679 always have that's just the style of the debate that 197 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:32.080 I do. To cope that I'm mean is just preposterous, 198 00:12:32.840 --> 00:12:37.279 especially when they follow people online as their leaders who 199 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:39.279 are ten times more mean than me and do all 200 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.600 kinds of nasty activities in the background, and people like 201 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:46.679 Loughton who did just absolutely nasty stuff in the background 202 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:49.159 trying to keep give people fired from their jobs. I mean, 203 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:53.200 they're nasty and they play like they're friendly upfront, but 204 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:57.639 it's all afront, right, So that's why you can't. You 205 00:12:57.720 --> 00:12:59.840 gotta be you got to have a little bit of 206 00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:01.919 a thick skin to do this kind of stuff, and 207 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:06.519 you can't listen to a lot of their whining and 208 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:10.600 bitching too much. Now, the biggest elephant in the room 209 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:14.919 is the actual arguments that have been made. Yes, I 210 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:19.200 was doing blood Sports when it started. First debate we 211 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:23.159 did was Adam Kokesh and that's still that was about 212 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:25.879 ten years ago. The next debate that I did was 213 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:30.200 Worski blood Sports against JF and you can still watch 214 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:33.840 that debate on my livestream channel. So yeah, I mean, 215 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:36.919 and it's not just because of blood sports. I come 216 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:40.960 out of a philosophical background in Underground and grad school 217 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:44.320 where we did debate. That was part of doing debate. 218 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:48.480 I mean part of philosophy. Excuse me. We were doing 219 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:52.799 public debaters, public debates with professors in my sophomore year 220 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:55.480 of Underground. So that's just what I'm used to. That's 221 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:59.240 the milieu that I come out of. I mean, to me, 222 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:01.639 that's how guys are act, right. I mean, Tim and 223 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:04.720 I went out after when I went out with his family, 224 00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:08.399 I took him out to eat afterwards. I bought him 225 00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:11.399 dinner because I'm a nice dude like that. So now 226 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:13.759 when it comes to the issues, I will fiercely debate. 227 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:18.279 But on a personal level, Tim and I get along great. 228 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:20.919 We were talking about going and playing basketball. We spent 229 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:23.159 like three hours at the restaurant just chatting it up. 230 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:27.919 I still think he's completely wrong. He's making huge mistakes 231 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:30.519 on his Twitter. I mean, it looks silly to me, 232 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.919 but I still like Tim on a personal level. He's 233 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:40.519 a good dude. Now let's get to the issues. Because 234 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:43.799 the only reason I bring that up is, like, do 235 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:48.000 you understand Tim's not acting like a massive Skittles bag 236 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:51.360 like most of you people are. How come Tim can 237 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:53.919 handle all this. He's not upset, crying and whining about 238 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:57.840 how many I am because he's a normal, high testosterone dude. 239 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:03.000 That's how dudes are. Dudes can handle this. A lot 240 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:04.519 of you guys are whoosies. 241 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:04.799 Dude. 242 00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:10.600 You guys are freaking weak. You can't handle it. And 243 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:13.679 that's why the whole point I'm telling you this is 244 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:17.080 that's not gonna keep people Roman Catholic. None of that 245 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:20.399 is gonna work. Lofton tried it in twenty eighteen to 246 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:23.159 talk about endlessly how mean I was, how much of 247 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:26.519 a bad person. None of that works because at the 248 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:29.080 end of the day, people that really care are going 249 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:32.799 to make the decisions based on who has the better arguments. 250 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:36.039 Which position's true. You can do all this drama all 251 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:38.960 day long, but do you understand that even if you 252 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:42.080 did a bunch of drama, and you kept a bunch 253 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:45.919 of people in your camp based on drama, do you 254 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:50.519 understand that that's actually a negative, a net negative for 255 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:53.480 you in the long run, because the people that you're 256 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:58.879 keeping are low information converts, low tier people that are 257 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:02.559 gonna convert the first time they encounter some significant challenge 258 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:05.600 to the position. So you would be better off actually 259 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:09.799 addressing the arguments than acting like the way to solve 260 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:12.360 these disputes is to talk about how bad somebody is, 261 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:14.960 how mean they are, the fat jokes they make about Abora. 262 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.240 I'm sorry, it's too easy to make fat jokes about Abara. 263 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.399 And they're funny too. Everybody thinks. Everybody knows they're funny. 264 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:23.399 They everybody admits they're funny. It's not my fault that 265 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:26.279 Abora ended up being a gigantic vagina about all this, 266 00:16:27.159 --> 00:16:31.080 and Tim hasn't been a giant vagina. Tim has been 267 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:35.080 super cool about it, even though we totally disagree. Notice 268 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:37.639 the difference of the attitude and the actions of Tim 269 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:43.360 versus giant vaginas like Abora totally night and day. Now, 270 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:45.559 let's get to the issues, because that's really what matters, 271 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.080 and all of this other stuff is just smoking mirror deflection. 272 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:51.000 Let's listen. Know what Brian Holdsworth argues, I don't think 273 00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:57.519 I'm gonna hear anything. It's very very high quality. Joshua 274 00:16:57.559 --> 00:16:59.919 Finch can't remember. J B Pilti a five month members 275 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:02.159 what's up? Troy orthodox ten dollars. What do you think 276 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:04.920 about Mark Dice? You know, I haven't kept up with 277 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:06.960 Mark Dice in a while. It seemed like he kind 278 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:09.319 of transitioned into just kind of doing a lot of 279 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:13.920 the daily news politics commentary stuff, which I think is 280 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:17.759 super boring. His content is similar with you in terms 281 00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:20.079 of geopolitics. I didn't know you even covered geopolitics. I 282 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:24.039 know you covered, like you know, kind of media stuff, 283 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:26.960 but I don't think he really does interviews. But I 284 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.240 would definitely have a conversation with him if you wanted to, 285 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:31.680 if you want to reach out or tell him. Now, 286 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:34.119 let's have a conversation with Troy. Thedox became a member 287 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:37.680 of five month membership Gorilla Biscuits membership. What's up? Christopher Scott? 288 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:40.440 Five dollars, Thank you so much, Derek. Five dollars. Since 289 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.359 Andrew doesn't do invasions when normal people are awake, I 290 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:46.400 will give you this gift. Thank you, Derek. Hushtones five dollars. 291 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:50.279 Here we go, Baptism, PSA, diet, calendar, jurisdiction. J will 292 00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:53.920 you be my spiritual father? JJJJJJJ Yeah, he does. What 293 00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:57.559 to expect on open Calls Day. Now again the topics 294 00:17:57.559 --> 00:17:59.359 are pretty broad today. I don't care what you want 295 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:03.440 to talk about. I'm specifically right now addressing these Roman 296 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:08.039 Catholic cope responds videos because it sort of stirs up 297 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:15.799 the questions, and I think they actually think that they'll 298 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:20.640 just placate people with these kind of easy answers. In fact, 299 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:23.720 there's a new Roman Catholic response that I'm seeing going around. 300 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:26.759 They kind of try out these new arguments every few months. 301 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:33.400 The latest argument cope is, oh, God wouldn't expect us 302 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:37.599 to learn all this theology, and He's made it easy, 303 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.000 and thus the papacy. Now, isn't that interesting. That's exact 304 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:44.079 argument that Daniel Hoikikachu made to me when we were 305 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:46.559 debating the last time we had her debate. God would 306 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.240 not make it difficult, and so therefore the position that's 307 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:52.000 the most simple must be true. And since Islam has 308 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:56.240 the most simple shahada, God is one all as one, 309 00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:01.240 et cetera, boom, it's true. Now, no Roman Catholic would 310 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:03.200 agree with that. No, no, no, no, you say that's 311 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:05.880 a it's actually a fallacy. By the way, So notice 312 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:09.839 that we're not even concerned with what are fallacious lines 313 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:15.079 of reasoning every Roman Catholic that eventually spends years doing 314 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:21.799 apologetics has actually spent countless hours responding to, for example, 315 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:24.759 Protestant objections. Now, wait a minute, I thought it was easy. 316 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:27.480 Why are we having to actually go into all of 317 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:31.799 these specific textual objections of Matthew sixteen? And what does 318 00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:34.759 the you know, the actual letter of Pope Agatho mean, 319 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:37.359 does it actually teach the Vatican One model of the papacy? 320 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:41.960 And you know what about Leo? You know, Peter spoke 321 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.119 through Leo a chalcidon And then you actually have to 322 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:47.039 explain the context when you're actually a debating's money knows 323 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:49.519 the history of the church, like you understand that as 324 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:54.519 time goes by, the Jesus made it easy. Argument doesn't work. 325 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:58.480 And let's say orthodox as Alex Warren pointed out in 326 00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:03.079 his video, let's say orthodoxy false. How do I know 327 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.599 between Roman Catholicism, Protestantism and Oriental Orthodoxy which one's true? 328 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:10.799 Without getting into the intellectual heavy issues. Is there some 329 00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:13.359 sort of self evidence? It's just gonna well, just the pope, 330 00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:16.160 he's there, Look, there's a pope. It just makes it 331 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:23.359 it's self eviden it's true. In other words, it's a 332 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:26.440 silly argument for an apologist to make that the position 333 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:28.359 is true, which is the one that's the easiest and 334 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:31.039 the simplest. Why can't buy that line of argument? Why 335 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:34.119 kind of Protestant just say this, man, my Bible, that's simple. 336 00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:36.920 This is just ridiculous. I mean, this is the level 337 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:39.480 of argumentation that we're at with this stuff. It's just like, 338 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:42.039 this is so silly. Hey, Jamie, could you make me 339 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:48.279 a coffee? Thank you? Hush tones five dollars. This one 340 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:50.720 is strictly for Saint Basil the Great. The Acubian brothers 341 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:55.480 must the Cuban Yeah, Kubian brothers, that's right, apple sy 342 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:58.480 ten dollars. If Jesus gave Peter the keys, how could 343 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:01.559 Peter give keys to the other apostles. Well, that's the 344 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:03.880 thing is I've pointed out in the text he doesn't 345 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:05.880 do that. If we had the papal model at work, 346 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:09.680 Jesus would give Peter the keys, breathe on Peter, Pentecosts, 347 00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:11.680 the Holy Spirit would come on Peter, and then Peter 348 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:14.000 would transmit that to the rest of the college. Is 349 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:16.519 that what happened, No, that would happened. In fact, it's 350 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:19.359 the opposite right, Jesus says it to Peter, and he 351 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:21.279 says it to the rest of them two chapters later, 352 00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:24.799 and the Holy Spirit Jesus breathes on all of them 353 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:27.039 and says, whoever sends you, they're remitted. Whoever sends you 354 00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:30.279 retten they retained. He sends aly Spirit on all of them. 355 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:32.440 It doesn't go to Peter and then to everyone else. 356 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:39.039 So exactly if Peter gave Peter the if Jesus got 357 00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:41.480 Peter the keys, then he would have to give it 358 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:42.880 to all them. Yeah, did he go to Walmart and 359 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:46.759 make copies for each of them? That's actually pretty funny. 360 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:49.160 Eight in eighty two pounds, I got married to my 361 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:56.160 funk o pop whoe aaaaaa killer one hundred foreign currencies. 362 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:59.119 When are you going to show us your labuobu collection? Well, 363 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:02.079 Sam Hid just put out a La Boobuo video, so 364 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:04.039 you can check that out because I donated all of 365 00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:08.079 my lab boo boos to Sam in age two dollars. 366 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:10.359 Did Gina become Orthodox? And does Mike hate her? Now? 367 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:14.680 So Gina and Mike who had that podcast a while 368 00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:16.960 back that had me on, and they're the ones that 369 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:20.119 hosted the debate between me and doctor Easley the Baptist 370 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:24.359 and Dave Gordon. Tim Gordon's brother, Gina did become Orthodox, 371 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:28.680 Mike went tradcat Roman Catholic. I've keep trying to get 372 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:30.319 Mike to call in and have a debate because he 373 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:33.359 got salty with me over blocking him. But I blocked 374 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:35.799 him because he just kept just saying bad arguments that 375 00:22:35.799 --> 00:22:38.960 when it come to debate. So I don't think he 376 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:42.000 hates Gina. I've not heard anything like that, but I 377 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:45.319 do know that they don't do a podcast together. Justin 378 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:52.519 two dollars? Should cornbread be made with corn meal? Bro, 379 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:54.759 I'm trying to stay in Katosi's dog. I don't know 380 00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:57.359 nothing about no corn meal. That's that's where all the 381 00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:00.519 plebes do. That's a pleb diet. Jack the guitar got 382 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:04.599 twenty dollars? What about the keys? Jay? What about the keys? 383 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:07.200 It's weird that, you know, if you go back to 384 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:10.240 the Nick debates eight years ago, what did he fall 385 00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:13.359 back on the keys? The keys? The keys? Fast forward 386 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:15.200 to the Tim Gordon debate? What do he fall back on? 387 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:19.160 The keys? The keys? The keys? There's actually one of 388 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:21.960 the medieval Orthodox saints actually makes fun of this too, says, 389 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:25.519 anytime you argue with the Roman Catholic, they jingle the keys. 390 00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:29.880 So Orthodox has been making this joke for literally like 391 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:32.640 a thousand years. Franke Smelkoite two dollars. The most learning 392 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.519 thing about the Shameless Popery video, this is the Joel 393 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:38.920 Heshmeyer video, is that he says Catholic and Orthodox both 394 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:42.880 revere acumenical councils. However, Rome is in communion with the 395 00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:46.759 stories and monophic sites. Now, yeah, exactly, and uh, what 396 00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:47.759 was voice of reason? 397 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:51.039 So the culture of Mephages, we don't know, Midiam, mistake 398 00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:54.359 because you did not allow for me to do texting 399 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:56.799 to girls with pro booties. I'd like a bunch of 400 00:23:56.799 --> 00:23:59.640 booty right now. The culture of Meverages made a mistake. 401 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:01.839 So you the idiots listen to this idiot saying that 402 00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:04.920 the Council of Emphysis made a mistake. How about the 403 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:08.279 curse of ephesis? Maybe he fell under the curse of emphasis. 404 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.680 Suko five dollars. If romccalek's declare Peter is infallible, then 405 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:18.720 was Peter correct and separate himself from the gentiles in 406 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:20.599 Galatians too? Well, they're just going to say that Peter 407 00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:22.720 made a moral mistake. So they're going to say that 408 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:28.319 infallibility only protects his teaching on faith and morals. It 409 00:24:28.359 --> 00:24:32.720 doesn't cover his personal sins or errors, which would be impeccability. 410 00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:34.920 So that's what they're gonna say. But that's why it's 411 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:41.359 important to specifically find the doctrinal and dogmatic contradictions. Liked 412 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:45.359 the example that we saw with unum sanctam and the 413 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:48.839 papal temporal supremacy doctrine. That's why it was so important 414 00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:53.960 to find a dogmatic contradiction and hammer that home. And 415 00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:56.720 you saw he had no answer. Where was this in 416 00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:00.000 the first thousand years? Wouldn't there it evolved? Oh okay, 417 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.119 it evolved to it, and then it evolved away from 418 00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:06.240 it after Vatican two. So does that mean that cathy 419 00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:10.039 theology could also evolve away from the papacy? That's so 420 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:14.079 stupid me and you g two dollars. Jay is not mean. 421 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:18.599 He's just an RN a registered nurse or retarded now 422 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:21.680 retard nation. I don't know what URN stands for, Mark 423 00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:24.680 medic five dollars. Do you think that the keys just 424 00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:28.480 keep talking about guys are the ones that start the popemobile? 425 00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:30.960 Maybe it's always a reference to the popemobile. That's what 426 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:34.200 the keys are about. Or is it the keys to 427 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:39.680 the papal dungeon where the human sacrifice happens. I don't know, sir, 428 00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:42.519 Jeff cost us five dollars. My pants are sized thirty 429 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:44.759 thirty two. That's funny. That's a reference to our joke 430 00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:47.440 a couple of weeks ago. Coolbera cout of two dollars. 431 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:54.920 What about the keys to your heart? Jamie holds those? Oh, 432 00:25:55.279 --> 00:26:00.400 it's sure as heck. Ain't no skills, pope. Or let's 433 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.359 see what Brian What Brian Gon'll serve up to us 434 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:03.799 right here. 435 00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:07.000 My experience of doing this kind of work, whenever I 436 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:09.839 say anything that calls for reform in the church, you know, 437 00:26:09.880 --> 00:26:11.880 the kind of thing that like a reformer would do 438 00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:15.759 out of love for the church, I inevitably every time 439 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:18.440 receive replies from people saying, this is why you should 440 00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:20.839 become Orthodox, even going so far as to claim that 441 00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:23.359 Orthodoxy is actually immune to some of the faults that 442 00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:25.400 I cite, which, on the one hand, if people do 443 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:27.720 this kind of thing because they sincerely want to help 444 00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:31.319 a fellow Christian come to a fuller communion with God 445 00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:32.519 and receive all the graces that. 446 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:36.319 Notice that from the outset, it's all assuming the ecumenist 447 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:40.240 Roman Catholic Vatican two model that we're all in Christ, 448 00:26:40.359 --> 00:26:44.160 We're all a giant, divided church, and some of us 449 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:46.960 are seventy five percent in commune with Christ, others are 450 00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:48.759 twenty percent in commune with Christ. This is all the 451 00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:51.720 Vatican to a humanist model, which we from the outset reject. 452 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:54.720 It can to help them on their way, hopefully to Heaven, 453 00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:58.880 then that's great. I'm blessed by that, but it is 454 00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:02.240 a weird way to expect want to respond favorably to 455 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:07.000 that kind of an invitation becauseck. 456 00:27:05.960 --> 00:27:11.160 Okay, but I mean, how do Roman Catholics act on online? 457 00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:14.720 Like ninety percent of the apologetic is just spamming submit 458 00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:18.519 to Rome. Peter has the keys, so tip for tat 459 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:18.839 on this. 460 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:20.880 One, recognizing that there are opportunities, by. 461 00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:22.920 The way, and I actually agree with what he's saying 462 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:25.480 that the Orthodox are telling him, like the Orthodox Church 463 00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:29.039 is immune because one thing that they don't understand that 464 00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:31.119 I think should be reiterated. I talked about this on 465 00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:34.240 my Twitter today is that they don't understand that we 466 00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:36.960 have a decentralized church. Allow me to read my tweet 467 00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:39.519 and maybe this will help clear things up. I said 468 00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:43.079 that I think people in the Roman Catholic sphere, when 469 00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:47.759 they see our argumentation and our line of reasoning, they 470 00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:51.480 kind of copy paste onto our system their autocratic top 471 00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:55.160 down model. So they see things in the Orthodox Church 472 00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:57.920 that they think don't make any sense because it's not 473 00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:02.039 the papal model. For example, how come the pentarchy doesn't 474 00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:06.920 just tell everybody what's infallibly true? How Bartholomew doesn't just 475 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:10.359 solve the issues. The major issue that is at the 476 00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:13.559 root of ninety percent of Romanical Orthodox debates that's missed 477 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:17.880 is that Orthodox ecclesiology is fundamentally decentralized. This is what 478 00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:19.960 they have a really hard time understanding. So they just 479 00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:24.720 assume that Jesus established a autocratic hierarchy, a top down system, 480 00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:27.440 and anything that doesn't have the top down system is 481 00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:32.440 in some way flawed or doomed or something like that. However, 482 00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:36.799 we actually think that this is a feature of this 483 00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:39.640 system and not a bug. In fact, the church was 484 00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:44.599 always decentralized. It was always sonodal as a fanthropic organism. 485 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:51.440 It's not a juridical CEO style corporation. They think of 486 00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:56.240 it like a giant corporation with a super powerful CEO, 487 00:28:57.240 --> 00:29:00.799 and the cardinals are something like a corporate board or something, 488 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:03.480 but the CEO has the final say. That is not 489 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:06.119 what we think Christ set up. We think he set 490 00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:11.359 up a synodal model and it was always decentralized. Now 491 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:13.920 when they hear this, this is their mind smelt. They 492 00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:17.319 can't fathom that Jesus would dare to set up a 493 00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:21.759 decentralized church. Now, I didn't say democracy, I said decentralized. 494 00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:24.319 But for the Orthodox Church, especially if you read a 495 00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:27.160 book like Church Papacy Schism by doctor Phil Cherard, he 496 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:30.200 points out that there's nothing lacking in the local church. 497 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:34.160 Every local church has the fullness of Catholicity because the 498 00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:37.279 bishop has the fullness of the faith and the sacraments 499 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:40.519 at the local level. Thus there's nothing lacking in local 500 00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:44.039 churches that Rome has a double dose of. Okay, there's 501 00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:48.920 no double anointing like Elijah to Elisha that exists in 502 00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:52.000 Rome that the rest of the bishops don't have or lack. 503 00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:55.160 But especially if you read Church Papacy Schism, you'll notice 504 00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:57.200 he gets into the chapter where in the Late Middle 505 00:29:57.240 --> 00:29:59.519 Ages the Latin Church develop what they call a juridical 506 00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:03.640 body distinct from the mystical body. This is a principal 507 00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:08.400 Nestorian heresy applied to ecclesiology that you could actually trace 508 00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:12.880 as the papacy comes to geopolitical world power, and doctor 509 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:14.559 Scharard' is one of the best on that his chapter 510 00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:18.039 is excellent. It's never been really, I don't think significantly addressed. 511 00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:21.920 Roman Calocs are ignorant of it. They don't even know 512 00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:24.200 or understand what we're talking about. They simply assume that 513 00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:29.799 there was always this juridical institutional papacy like a corporation, 514 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:31.680 and then when you go to the places in church 515 00:30:31.720 --> 00:30:33.920 history where it didn't exist, suddenly it was a thing 516 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:39.880 in potentia being developed. Even though Satis Cognitum says there's 517 00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:42.759 not a development, it was always understood to be the 518 00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:46.559 case that this is the Vatican One definition and extent 519 00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:49.279 in jurisdiction and indefectibility of the papacy was always there. 520 00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:54.319 But magically it becomes a developing thing when there's a problem. Now, 521 00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:59.000 why are they retreating to look? God doesn't expect us 522 00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:02.960 to become phdsds precisely because they don't have answers to 523 00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:08.000 these very challenging problems. And this is an interesting new 524 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.240 approach because it's almost a concession. It's kind of like 525 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:16.759 a last ditch effort of exasperation before you're ready to 526 00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:20.559 give up, because you're throwing your hands up. Intellectually you're saying, look, 527 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:24.519 I don't know, okay, it can't be this hard, okay. 528 00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:26.759 So it's a sign of frustration. It's not actually an 529 00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:30.480 argument to say, look, you got all these problems in 530 00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.480 church history. I don't care. I don't care. Guess what, 531 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:36.160 hand waving the problems of the contradition of the church 532 00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:38.279 history is not gonna make them go away. They're going 533 00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:40.680 to keep eating at your head and at your conscience, 534 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:43.960 in your mind like a mind virus. And I know 535 00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:47.039 because they did it to me when I was a 536 00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:50.200 Roman Catholic trad cat and I heard these challenges. Don't 537 00:31:50.200 --> 00:31:53.480 you think I went through all of the same stages 538 00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:58.559 of grief? Of course I've done all this, all this stuff, 539 00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:02.519 Tim was saying, I've heard it. I said it back 540 00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:09.839 when I was in my twenties. But none of those 541 00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:13.839 things are going to answer and solve and give you 542 00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:16.559 the peace that you're actually looking for. You're never going 543 00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:18.559 to have peace in the Roman Catholic world. It's a 544 00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:23.079 religion of dead works that doesn't have the Holy Spirit 545 00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:27.839 peace that you're actually after. You're always going to be restless, 546 00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:30.240 You're always going to be wondering because the whole thing 547 00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:36.119 is structured like some kind of weird corporate blockchain transactional system. Anyway, 548 00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:40.960 it's crazy, and I mean, you still believe the doctrine 549 00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:43.119 of the Treasury of the merits of the Saints, which 550 00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:45.680 is absolutely insane. I mean that one alone should really 551 00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:47.880 refute all the Roman Catholicism, and I think they actually 552 00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:50.720 downplay it because it's such a ridiculous dogma. It's still 553 00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:54.359 in the books, it's still a dogma. But do we 554 00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:56.440 hear Roman Catholics defending this very much? I mean, last 555 00:32:56.440 --> 00:32:58.440 one I remember defending this was Scott hand like maybe 556 00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:03.680 fifteen years ago. 557 00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:08.799 For the church to reform is a terrible reason to 558 00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:11.960 abandon the particular church that you belong to. It would 559 00:33:11.960 --> 00:33:14.279 be like trying to address issues in your marriage only. 560 00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:17.079 To Yeah, but we're not saying that it's merely corruption 561 00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:20.799 or something like that. All right, we're talking about specific 562 00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:27.960 dogmatic contradictions and dangerous teachings. That's way different than trying 563 00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:31.480 to paint a narrative that what we're outlining and highlighting 564 00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:34.599 is merely corruption or problems with the church and we 565 00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:37.240 need to reform it. No, no, no, it's not a matter 566 00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:39.880 of reform. It's a matter of contradiction. 567 00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:41.880 I have someone like like I don't know your marriage 568 00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:46.119 counselor say you should just leave and maybe Mary Susie instead. 569 00:33:46.359 --> 00:33:48.519 I bet she won't cause you these kinds of troubles. 570 00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:51.240 Or in recognizing that there is a need to fix 571 00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:55.200 issues in your nation or your city, using that as 572 00:33:55.240 --> 00:33:57.880 a cause is simply abandoned ship instead of helping to 573 00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:00.799 improve the place that you already belong to. Bearing in 574 00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:02.440 mind that patriotism is a. 575 00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:08.840 Virtue, yeah, hold on now, Patriotism is a doctrine of 576 00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:14.599 civil life and civil existence. And patriotism has limitations. How 577 00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:17.519 much more are the limitations in the in the spiritual sphere? 578 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:20.280 All these things, So all of these are bogus analogies 579 00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:23.800 that he's making to you know, Oh, look, just don't 580 00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:27.239 jump ship, because you got to be faithful to your marriage. Well, 581 00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:30.599 unless you made a mistake, right unless unless it's just 582 00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:31.719 simply not the true church. 583 00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:36.159 Need for reform or growth is a terrible reason to 584 00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:40.840 abandon your commitments. That's just cowardlessness and betrayal. 585 00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:42.840 Cowardessness isn't a word, Brian. 586 00:34:43.079 --> 00:34:45.400 And in the case of the church, you should only 587 00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:51.119 leave if you detect some fatal error to that particular ecclesiology. 588 00:34:51.400 --> 00:34:55.280 And assuming yes, there we go, that's exactly what I'm 589 00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:57.039 looking for, and that's exactly what we're. 590 00:34:56.920 --> 00:34:59.519 Arguing that you found in an alternative, that is in 591 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:04.559 an actual solution to the dilemmas that you're facing. And 592 00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:06.960 if you're on the other side of that saying hey, 593 00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:09.280 you should come join us, I don't think you should 594 00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:12.559 want to Inherit converts on those terms in the same 595 00:35:12.599 --> 00:35:15.000 way that you shouldn't want to accept like a marriage 596 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:18.199 proposal from someone who has just abandoned his wife because 597 00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:21.079 he didn't want to work on the perfectly reasonable challenges 598 00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:22.519 that existed in his marriage. 599 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:24.920 I mean, I agree with that that I don't think 600 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:28.559 most people are calling for converts for bad reasons. We're 601 00:35:28.599 --> 00:35:33.320 pointing out that these are significant contradictions in the ram 602 00:35:33.400 --> 00:35:37.320 mecallity paople system and we have the answers. But anyone 603 00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:39.519 who comes to Orthodoxy, and I don't think Brian knows 604 00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:42.280 this most of the time, you're not gonna immediately be 605 00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:46.079 a convert. It's not easy. This is not some Baptist 606 00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:49.119 church where you walk down the aisle and say the 607 00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:51.679 Sinner's prayer and Billy Graham gives you coke and pizza. 608 00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:54.719 Comb Donald Alta will give a hot pizza. We've got 609 00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:57.480 donuts too, Hill. If you'll say the sons probab, I'll 610 00:35:57.480 --> 00:36:00.719 give you a pizza, maybe a little bossyleicle, trustycleo, row home, 611 00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:03.360 just good it up to Jesus and I'll give it 612 00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:08.280 hot Hilza. This says not that you're talking six months 613 00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:11.239 to three years catechumen it to become Orthodox, even if 614 00:36:11.239 --> 00:36:15.320 you were Roman Catholic. So I don't think he understands that. No, no, 615 00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:18.000 you don't get any ease. Now. You could probably find 616 00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:20.639 some Orthodox church that will immediately receive you somewhere if 617 00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:23.760 you like shop around or something, but typically speaking, that's 618 00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:24.679 not our ethos. 619 00:36:24.760 --> 00:36:28.159 That's the last kind of person you should want to marry. 620 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:31.679 Someone who's already shown themselves to be fragile and disloyal 621 00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:37.280 in their commitments. But nonetheless, that constant influx of invitations 622 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:40.840 does often give me pause to reflect and revisit the 623 00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:43.679 question why did I become Catholic instead of Orthodox? And 624 00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:47.199 now that I've matured enough in my affiliation as a 625 00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:50.679 Catholic that it's warts and its blemishes aren't invisible to 626 00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:54.400 me anymore, why would I remain Catholic instead of becoming Orthodox? 627 00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:58.480 Because the opportunity is always available. So to answer that, 628 00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:02.239 let me contrast a few areas where the claims of orthodoxy. 629 00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:04.920 Okay, come on, get to the point. 630 00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:07.280 Okay, So the first challenge I have is on the 631 00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:10.880 question of the papacy and authority. Prior to the more 632 00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:14.039 formal schism of the East and the West, everyone recognized 633 00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:16.480 that Saint Peter had a unique position in the church 634 00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:20.199 as the leader of the apostles, including Eastern Church fathers, 635 00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:22.559 Saint John, Chris Astom Freak coach. 636 00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:24.559 So this is what we always hear as the sort 637 00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:27.559 of first point that they go to, and I think 638 00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:29.679 a lot of these Roman Catholics are actually just surprised 639 00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:34.079 when they hear that Orthodox don't deny that Peter had 640 00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:38.360 an apostle ship, that set up a bishopric and a succession. Okay, 641 00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:41.159 everybody knows that. Everybody agrees that what we have is 642 00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:44.840 to rival accounts of the first thousand years, Right, So 643 00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:49.159 what happens? And I've been through this for twenty years 644 00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:53.280 almost now, at least fifteen, maybe seventeen years, looking at 645 00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:56.159 this issue, getting into these debates, debating Roman Catholics on 646 00:37:56.199 --> 00:37:59.639 this point, being a Roman Catholic. Formerly, what's always going 647 00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:05.239 on here is there's two stories, two narratives explaining the 648 00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:10.800 first thousand years. The Roman Catholic narrative alternates between assuming 649 00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:14.559 that the Vatican One model of the papacy was always 650 00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:18.239 there and clear, and then it vacillates over to it 651 00:38:18.280 --> 00:38:21.519 was in potential and developing when there's problems. So it 652 00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:26.519 vacillates between these two narrative contradictory explanations to make that 653 00:38:26.599 --> 00:38:29.199 thing work. And a lot of times what they do 654 00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:33.119 is they pick a strong statement of the papacy, say 655 00:38:33.159 --> 00:38:36.159 in the eight hundreds, that we would agree is a 656 00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:40.760 strong statement that has evolved to that point. Okay, but 657 00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:43.719 they think that because it's within the first thousand years 658 00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:46.800 and the pope makes a strong statement late in the game, 659 00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:50.480 that must be a definitive proof for their system. The 660 00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:53.880 other thing that they do is they assume that the wording, 661 00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:57.920 the language, the flowery language that's used oftentimes for many 662 00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:03.559 bishops somehow is like kind of loosely akin to what 663 00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:07.760 Vatican One eventually says. Both of these are non sequitors, 664 00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:11.440 and both of them can be explained by two different 665 00:39:11.960 --> 00:39:15.480 rival paradigms. I'm not saying their position is true anymore 666 00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:17.920 than I'm saying my position is true, because it has 667 00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:22.000 a narrative explanation. Right, So this is I mean, this 668 00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:25.320 is exactly what we'd expect people who are evidentialists in 669 00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:29.039 their apologetic to try to do. Stack up a bunch 670 00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:32.039 of quote lines and doesn't that kind of tilt the 671 00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:36.480 scales over to papacy. That's how they approach all these questions. Now, 672 00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:41.119 I've consistently argued against this evidential is apologetic this entire time, 673 00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:44.280 because this is another part of the problem. You don't 674 00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:48.039 actually solve this question, just like in philosophy it's called 675 00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:51.800 underdetermination of data thesis. You don't actually solve this question 676 00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:56.719 when you've got data that can be explained significantly and 677 00:39:57.079 --> 00:40:01.840 in a good way by two rival paradigms. And this 678 00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:04.559 is what they don't understand because they don't understand paradigm thinking. 679 00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:09.920 Everything for them is like one layer and piling up evidences. 680 00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:14.119 I'm looking at it from two rival paradigms and systems 681 00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:17.599 and which ones are coherent and not tim That doesn't 682 00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:20.360 make me a coherence theorist as if I'm some sort 683 00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:24.559 of secular epistemology person. I'm just talking about coherence, not 684 00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:29.119 coherence theory, just like if I talked about empiricism or 685 00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:32.280 empirical data, that doesn't make me an empiricist of the 686 00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:34.679 school of empiricists. So I've got to make some of 687 00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:38.440 these distinctions because these people get very confused over basic 688 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:42.000 ideas and word concept fallacies. So when Brian pulls out 689 00:40:42.039 --> 00:40:46.960 various quotes or pastors or whatever, the assumption is that 690 00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:50.840 you can read iogetically into that the second millennium of 691 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:54.159 Roman Catholic developments and as Orthodox we have been calling 692 00:40:54.199 --> 00:40:59.039 this out and critiquing that forever does it. Do they 693 00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:01.480 hear this? No, it just goes right over their head. 694 00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:04.800 They don't ever hear what our responses are. And I 695 00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:08.199 would say too that if you want the specifics, Alex 696 00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:10.840 did a really good video Alex Soren here responding to 697 00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:13.920 Joel Heshmeier on the specifics. So Joel mentions a bunch 698 00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:18.239 of what he thinks are papal proofs, and actually all 699 00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:21.119 three of his three were actually not papal proofs at all. 700 00:41:21.159 --> 00:41:24.199 They actually proved the opposite, particularly with Saint Cyprian being 701 00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:30.039 someone who went against Rome. So obviously his quotes about Peter, 702 00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:33.880 which Roman Catholx's assum is about all of Christendom. No 703 00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:37.960 Cyprian says all bishops are Peter, and Cyprian had no 704 00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:40.760 problem going again, it'st Pope Saint Stephen. Now we believe 705 00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:44.920 that that Pope Stephen was ultimately correct and Cyprian was 706 00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:49.079 wrong in the conflict. But what it shows, just like 707 00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:53.480 with Saint Aeronais, is that their statements about Rome do 708 00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:57.960 not come with an unqualified autocratic authority. Because both aaron 709 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:04.039 Ais and Cyprian opposed Rome very significantly, and as did 710 00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:06.800 Saint Augustine. They always leave out the fact that Augustine, 711 00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:09.360 in that letter where he talks about Rome, goes on 712 00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:12.559 to say, perhaps the bishops of Rome also could make 713 00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:15.239 significant errors, and thus we could leave it up to 714 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:18.719 a universal council clear as day, Augustine is saying that 715 00:42:18.920 --> 00:42:23.400 ecumenical councils or synods are above one Bishop of Rome. 716 00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:27.840 And in both cases of Cyprian and Augustine, they were 717 00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:32.679 resenting the fact that African bishops were having the Roman 718 00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:36.679 bishop speak to and step over their jurisdictions because nobody 719 00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:41.599 believed that Peter, because he was the mouthpiece, somehow suddenly 720 00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:46.320 had universal jurisdiction. That's why the chi eighty document admits 721 00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:51.400 that they didn't have or that there was no universal 722 00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:55.239 jurisdiction of Rome in the first millennium. What is paragraph 723 00:42:55.320 --> 00:42:58.800 nineteen of the chiady document from Rome say appeals to 724 00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:01.840 the Bishop of Rome from the east expressed the community 725 00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:03.960 of the church, Bob, the Bishop of Rome did not 726 00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:08.639 exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East. That's 727 00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:09.440 the Vatican. 728 00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:14.280 He could only refers to Peter as the chief of 729 00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:18.000 the apostles. Saint Basil the Great refers to Peter as 730 00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:20.440 the foremost of the apostles along with thee. 731 00:43:20.440 --> 00:43:24.400 So notice chief foremost. This is supposedly somehow translating into 732 00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:30.119 Vatican one. It's just non sequiturs. And this is the problem. 733 00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:33.360 And look, I made the same mistake. When I was 734 00:43:33.400 --> 00:43:36.199 in my twenties, I fell for the low tier pop 735 00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:39.719 apologetic quote minds. This is partly why I left Protestantism 736 00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:43.159 for rome Caanthosism. I thought, without context that all these 737 00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:47.239 quotes piled up proved the papacy. However, when I converted, 738 00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:49.840 guess what, I hadn't read Vatican One. I didn't know 739 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:54.840 what Vatican On actually said. I didn't know the nitty 740 00:43:54.840 --> 00:44:04.559 gritty details of the specific controversies. But there's no other 741 00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:06.599 way around it. You have to get into the details 742 00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:09.800 of these things. Otherwise we're no different than I mean, 743 00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:11.760 what does a Roman Calvic say to an Aran when 744 00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:16.320 an Aran says, well, Jesus says the Father's greater? Well, no, 745 00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:19.599 wait a minute, do I need the context or could 746 00:44:19.639 --> 00:44:22.239 I just appeal to simplicity because an Aran could say 747 00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:25.320 like the like the Muslims do. Look, the Trinity is complex. 748 00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:28.679 Why not just say it's simple, It's a Unitarian deity. 749 00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:32.679 This is literally what Arians and Muslims say. Now does 750 00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:37.159 any Roman Calvic appeal to quote simplicity and pragmatism for that? 751 00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:40.199 Of course, not Cyril of Jerusalem, who also refers to 752 00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:42.760 him as the chief and simultaneously. 753 00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:46.079 Yeah. But Basil, for example, in his letters, says the 754 00:44:46.119 --> 00:44:48.239 same thing about the Bishop of Antioch. He is the 755 00:44:48.280 --> 00:44:50.519 head to whom all the body of the Church receives 756 00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:54.559 its sustenance and guidance. Oh really, does that mean he's 757 00:44:54.559 --> 00:45:00.440 the Pope? No? Well then, so what does that mean? Well, 758 00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:03.320 flowery language doesn't really get you anywhere. And that's exactly 759 00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:07.000 what the Ibarra and Ubi debates have shown. Right. Ibarra 760 00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:10.760 relied heavily on this flowery, strong language. And then when 761 00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:12.920 you point out the same language being used of other 762 00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.639 bishops and the Emperor, well, suddenly that those don't count. 763 00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:18.480 Now that one doesn't count. It only counts when it's 764 00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:19.159 about Peter, you say. 765 00:45:19.159 --> 00:45:21.239 See, there's little room for doubt that the Bishop of 766 00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:25.239 Rome was widely recognized as the successor of Peter, with 767 00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:27.840 people like Maximis the Confessor. 768 00:45:28.519 --> 00:45:31.880 Yeah, but does he not realize that Antioch and Alexandria 769 00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:35.400 are also the admitted successors of Peter. So what they 770 00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:38.039 have to then prove is that where does the special 771 00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:42.159 prerogatives and privileges of the descent of Peter in Rome 772 00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:47.360 come from? Oh? Guess where that comes from? Tradition what tradition? 773 00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:51.840 Where is this? Where do we prove the tradition? Oh well, 774 00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:55.119 you see Peter died in Rome. Oh so dying in 775 00:45:55.239 --> 00:45:59.679 Rome is what grants indefectibility and infallibility. Where is that? 776 00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:04.719 Where does that come from? What's tradition? Notice this ridiculous circle. 777 00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:08.119 When his twelfth Epistle says that the Roman Church has 778 00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:12.360 received the universal and supreme dominion, authority and power of 779 00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:16.440 binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God. 780 00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:20.920 But Maximus is the same person who also said I 781 00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:24.320 will go against any number or authority in the Church 782 00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:27.239 if they abandon the faith. And so he actually qualifies 783 00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:30.559 this statement and says that what makes them authoritative is 784 00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:34.159 their orthodoxy. They're not orthodox because they're an authority. They're 785 00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:37.440 an authority because they're Orthodox, and if they lose that orthodoxy, 786 00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:40.800 they lose that authority. So even Maximus's quote is qualified 787 00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:43.599 by Maximus to even say that I would be amongst 788 00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:47.880 the small band of true Catholics rather than being against 789 00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:50.760 the largest number of those who affirm heresies. In other words, 790 00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:55.239 for Maximus, truth is not determined by number or externality. 791 00:46:55.280 --> 00:46:58.440 It's determined by what's true. The true Church I'm saying 792 00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:01.719 the true Church is not a number. And the other 793 00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:05.320 reason that he's writing that way is because he's opposing 794 00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:09.280 the patriarchal constant who was a heretic read the disputation Paris, 795 00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:12.239 And because he's appealing to Rome because he wants Rome's 796 00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:15.920 approval for his teaching. And everybody did this. But wait 797 00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:19.039 a minute. Does appealing to the Bishop of Rome as 798 00:47:19.079 --> 00:47:23.679 a final court of appeals actually occur? Oh? It doesn't. Uh, oh, 799 00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:28.440 wait a minute, Shady Document nineteen. Over the centuries, many 800 00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:30.599 appeals are made to the Bishop of Rome from the 801 00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:33.679 East in disciplinary matters, such as the deposition of a bishop. 802 00:47:34.159 --> 00:47:37.000 An attempt was made at the Council of Sartica in 803 00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:39.679 three forty three to establish the rules for this procedure. 804 00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:43.599 Sartaka was received at the Council of Trollo, which Romanchelics reject. 805 00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:45.800 By the way, the Canon of Sartica determined that a 806 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:48.960 bishop had been condemned could appeal to the Bishop of Rome. 807 00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.400 Now all the Romancanthic apologists use this, and they stopped there. 808 00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:55.559 Why do they stop there? Because the rest of what 809 00:47:55.760 --> 00:48:00.119 is argued and discussed in this disproves their position. So 810 00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:03.119 they're lying, they're dishonest, or they just see quote minds 811 00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:05.840 and they don't know the context. Because, as it goes 812 00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:09.320 on to say the latter, the Bishop of Rome, if 813 00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:13.079 he deemed it appropriate, could order a retrial. It's not 814 00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:18.239 a de facto divine fiat decision. They always want to 815 00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:21.159 That's exactly what Vatican one says. That's how they paint 816 00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:25.760 this picture. It's the opposite. And when he orders a retrial, 817 00:48:26.039 --> 00:48:27.800 is it where is it? Is it in Rome? No, 818 00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:31.760 it's conducted by the bishops in his providence that bishop. 819 00:48:33.719 --> 00:48:36.639 Guess what. Appeals regarding these things were also made to 820 00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:39.920 Constantinople and the other seas, Because if you were in 821 00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:43.440 a snodal church and you want to support like Saint 822 00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:45.880 Maximus did, obviously you're going to appeal to the number 823 00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:49.760 one see Rome. If you can get Rome support, that's 824 00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:52.920 a big deal when Rome was Orthodox. That's why Maximus 825 00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:55.559 writes that way and why he appeals to Rome. But 826 00:48:55.719 --> 00:48:59.679 you also want the other sees Alexandria, Antioch, et cetera 827 00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:05.639 could get them, And similar types of appeals were made 828 00:49:05.639 --> 00:49:12.840 to other patriarchates. So this shows anodal pentarchical model, not 829 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:17.639 top down de facto, just let Rome has spoken cases closed. 830 00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:20.719 Do you notice how out of one side of their 831 00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:23.880 mouth they'll say Roma spoken cases closed, because it's an autocratic, 832 00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:27.480 final arbiter decision. And then it turns out it turns 833 00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:31.559 out it's not that at all. In their documents, you're saying, 834 00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:33.400 this is not an Orthodox Church document, this is a 835 00:49:33.480 --> 00:49:39.519 Roman Catholic document, paragraph nineteen, the Chady Document. In fact, 836 00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:41.480 when the Chady Document came out a few years ago, 837 00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:45.199 there were Roman Catholic apologists writing articles in Catholic World 838 00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:49.239 Report saying, what do we do with this? This means 839 00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:57.079 Vatican One is wrong and we're dealing with giant hordes 840 00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:01.840 of normy pop apolog just who've not read any of 841 00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:06.119 this stuff. That's why this is so frustrating. They're like 842 00:50:06.280 --> 00:50:09.840 ten years behind in the reading. And I don't mean 843 00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:11.440 to be Tim Gordon, but it means to Tim Gordon 844 00:50:11.480 --> 00:50:13.519 because I liked him on a personal level. But Tim 845 00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:15.800 didn't read any of the material that I sent him. 846 00:50:16.119 --> 00:50:19.920 What he did was he relied on whatever Catholic apologetic 847 00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:23.840 websites or persons he talked to. I get it. He's busy, 848 00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:26.480 he's got a large family and that's great. However, if 849 00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:30.000 you're going to step into the debate world, and this 850 00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:33.199 is almost five years of Tim and I being buddies, 851 00:50:33.519 --> 00:50:36.599 we first started talking smack on Twitter, setting up and 852 00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:39.840 arguing for this debate. It eventually happens five years later. 853 00:50:40.599 --> 00:50:43.760 I gave Tim a pretty significant reading list five years ago. 854 00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:47.679 He didn't read any of it. And I can tell, 855 00:50:47.719 --> 00:50:49.599 and everybody in the audience can tell, especially if you 856 00:50:49.639 --> 00:50:51.760 read Saint Photios, that Tim had no idea what he 857 00:50:51.800 --> 00:50:53.719 was talking about when he saw about Potius the Philio quick. 858 00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:56.840 Tim didn't have any conception of what the Cappa Docian 859 00:50:56.920 --> 00:51:02.679 model of the Trinity was, none whatsoever. And I'm not 860 00:51:02.719 --> 00:51:07.639 being mean, that's just the facts. So how are we 861 00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:11.679 supposed to convey this information and explain this when we've 862 00:51:11.679 --> 00:51:14.280 got people that won't do any of the primary reading 863 00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:17.440 or the secondary reading, don't have any idea what the 864 00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:22.880 actual literature says on these topics, and they're appealing to 865 00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:27.960 very low information voters and duping people on the basis 866 00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:30.719 of this sort of low tier stuff that Brian Holdsworth's 867 00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:32.719 doing here where he just says, well, look Peter's listed 868 00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:36.679 as first, He's called first. This this this quote, my quote, 869 00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:39.519 my quote. Mind. Okay, but you understand that none of 870 00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:44.480 these quotes prove Vatican one's claims, and your own Vatican 871 00:51:44.519 --> 00:51:48.840 has admitted that. So you're fighting an uphill battle. 872 00:51:48.639 --> 00:51:54.119 Here throughout the whole world, or perhaps most vividly in 873 00:51:54.159 --> 00:51:57.679 the Council of Chalcedon, in which the bishops proudly proclaimed 874 00:51:57.679 --> 00:52:01.599 that Peter has spoken through Leo, who was the pope 875 00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:04.000 at the time, after the Pope's letter had been read. 876 00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:06.599 But today the East claims that the Bishop of Rome 877 00:52:06.760 --> 00:52:10.960 never had a supreme authority or universal jurisdiction. What was 878 00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:16.079 simply recognized as a first among or universal jurisdiction. What 879 00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:18.440 was simply recognized as a first among equals, like a 880 00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:19.719 position of honor. 881 00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:23.760 Now, Brian, it's your papal documents. Do you understand that 882 00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:29.280 we didn't just make this up? Now Orthodox are claiming 883 00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:31.679 that there wasn't universal jurisdiction. No, can you read your 884 00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:34.840 own documents? I mean, are these people just super lazy, 885 00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:39.880 Like I don't understand why they can't just read their 886 00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:45.840 own documents. Appeals to the Bishop Realm expressed the communion 887 00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:48.239 of the church, but the Biser Realm did not exercise 888 00:52:48.519 --> 00:52:52.360 canonical authority over the churches of the East. That's exactly 889 00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:58.159 what Nicia's canon say. What does Canon Ford Nicia say 890 00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:00.960 a bishop should be appointed by the bishop of the province. 891 00:53:05.159 --> 00:53:06.880 Did do you see anything about the pope appointing all 892 00:53:06.880 --> 00:53:09.079 the bishops in the world there, Canon Ford and I 893 00:53:09.159 --> 00:53:17.519 yah Canon two Constantinople three eighty one that defined the trinity. 894 00:53:17.559 --> 00:53:20.199 Which again he was wrong when he said that constantin 895 00:53:20.199 --> 00:53:21.920 Noble one was not out of comuny. Yes it was. 896 00:53:21.960 --> 00:53:25.239 He didn't know basic church history. Tim didn't even know 897 00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:28.440 his own positions when we got into universal order magistarian 898 00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:32.880 So canon too, bishops are not to go beyond their diocese. 899 00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:40.360 Where do you see universal romanistiction there? In fact, the 900 00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:42.400 argument here is that it leads to confusion amongst the 901 00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:45.960 laity if they go beyond. Now you know what the 902 00:53:46.039 --> 00:53:48.280 Roman catholic answerest all these Now, remember this is a 903 00:53:48.800 --> 00:53:52.800 This is a canon written while this council has had 904 00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:56.840 out of commune with Rome. So you can't argue Roman 905 00:53:56.880 --> 00:54:01.239 Catholics that well, they just assumed Romans supremacy even though 906 00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:05.360 this canon has written not mentioning it. That's what they 907 00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:07.760 say about Canon six of Nicia. Right, So Cannon six 908 00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:11.679 and Nicia. If you remember, Gabara said they didn't need 909 00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:15.679 to mention the universal supremacy because everybody knew that. He 910 00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:18.920 had argument from silence is just assumed that it's there. 911 00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:22.320 But now, wait a minute, would you say the same 912 00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:25.199 thing about the same wording in Constantinople three eighty one. 913 00:54:25.239 --> 00:54:27.440 They didn't need to mention it because they all knew 914 00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:29.119 it was there. Oh, they all knew it was there. 915 00:54:29.159 --> 00:54:30.519 But wait a minute, this is the council out of 916 00:54:30.519 --> 00:54:34.119 community with Rome. They right, they wrote these canons while 917 00:54:34.159 --> 00:54:36.199 they were not in commune with Rome. So that doesn't 918 00:54:36.239 --> 00:54:40.159 work here. Oh so guess what turns out? The Empire, 919 00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:43.159 for the most part, didn't believe that the Bishop Rome 920 00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:44.639 had jurisdiction throughout. 921 00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:45.800 The whole world. 922 00:54:47.039 --> 00:54:49.360 Do you ever hear Robin Catholic apologist going to the 923 00:54:49.360 --> 00:54:52.639 canons of the councils? Do you not understand that alone 924 00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:54.880 should tell you their position is wrong. They don't even 925 00:54:54.920 --> 00:54:58.559 go to the ecumenical mind of the church. But the 926 00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:02.239 cons Arendy Poble didn't say they were not making the 927 00:55:02.320 --> 00:55:04.400 argument that the cans are infallible. I'm making the argument 928 00:55:04.400 --> 00:55:08.599 that they reflect the mindset of the church at these councils. 929 00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:12.400 So would Rob McAlley say they believe in the actumenical councils. 930 00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:15.960 They don't really. All they care about is giving verbal 931 00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:20.159 credence to them and whatever the pope says, that's it now. 932 00:55:20.239 --> 00:55:22.960 Romancallly was on the talking to smack that today, saying, 933 00:55:23.199 --> 00:55:25.920 who could you could call a council? Do you understand 934 00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:28.840 that the emperors called the councils, not the popes. So 935 00:55:28.920 --> 00:55:38.000 what are you even talking about. Let's go to Ephesus. 936 00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:46.360 Ephesis grants autocephaly to the Church of Cyprus. What do 937 00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:49.480 you remember me mentioning that in the debate, Tim didn't 938 00:55:49.480 --> 00:55:50.800 even know what that was. He had no idea what 939 00:55:50.840 --> 00:55:55.079 I was talking about, and he was so not aware 940 00:55:55.079 --> 00:55:57.519 of this that he didn't even understand that it refutes 941 00:55:57.519 --> 00:56:06.360 his position. Why are you thumbing down? You're making a 942 00:56:06.360 --> 00:56:15.960 big stink, unmute. What's your problem? I'm mute, Ortho, I'm mute. 943 00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:19.960 This is not orthodox person, that's the persons the romancalag 944 00:56:20.039 --> 00:56:25.559 making a profile. Ortho, unmute, you're thumbing down? What's your problem? 945 00:56:25.639 --> 00:56:25.960 All right? 946 00:56:26.159 --> 00:56:34.320 Just blocking? Good job, wasting everybody's time. So let me 947 00:56:34.559 --> 00:56:39.920 once again, for one hundredth time, share the article that 948 00:56:41.519 --> 00:56:44.760 now people will talk about the Ortho Bros Seraphims. Last 949 00:56:44.800 --> 00:56:47.000 I heard was a deacon. He might be a priest now, 950 00:56:47.079 --> 00:56:49.199 so we've already this is already people that converted, like 951 00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:54.880 in twenty seventeen are already becoming deacons and priests. There 952 00:56:54.960 --> 00:56:57.639 is the article that he wrote right there, and it's 953 00:56:57.679 --> 00:57:01.000 just a list of cannons in the seven Cheminical councils 954 00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:05.920 that refute the Vatican one view. This is one of 955 00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:10.159 the strongest arguments if you want the easy pragmatic approach. Okay, 956 00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:13.400 what's the easiest way to show that the Vatican one 957 00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:16.800 position is not true, that the papacies falls this right here, 958 00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:19.320 All of these canons and every one of the ecumenical 959 00:57:19.360 --> 00:57:25.880 councils doesn't fit with the autocratic, pivotal papal model. It's 960 00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:32.440 it's a nodal model. And when you notice that none 961 00:57:32.480 --> 00:57:35.719 of these mention the universal jurisdiction of Rome, do you 962 00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:38.360 know what the Roman Catholics say, Well, we don't care 963 00:57:38.400 --> 00:57:41.000 what the canons say, it's just what the Pope says. 964 00:57:41.039 --> 00:57:43.519 And we all know that they all believed in our position, 965 00:57:43.599 --> 00:57:45.599 So it's literally that I'm not kidding. That's the other 966 00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:48.480 Their argument is an argument from silence that yeah, there 967 00:57:48.519 --> 00:57:51.679 might be all these canons that contradict peoples supremacy, but 968 00:57:51.880 --> 00:57:53.679 who cares what canon? Say? Well, I wait a minute, 969 00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:56.480 I thought you cared by the ecumenical councils because the 970 00:57:56.559 --> 00:57:59.760 canons are the ecclesiastical law of the councils, so you 971 00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:02.440 don't actually care about the ecmical councils. All they care 972 00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:05.199 about is what the Pope of Rome approves in the 973 00:58:05.199 --> 00:58:08.880 ecmitical councils, which means that they're schismatics because they don't 974 00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:11.159 listen to the totality of the might of the church. 975 00:58:11.639 --> 00:58:16.639 They follow one dude, and you'll notice over and over 976 00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:19.760 and over in these canons they just talk about the 977 00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:25.039 limited jurisdiction of bishops not transgressing their local jurisdictions. There's 978 00:58:25.079 --> 00:58:28.400 nothing about universal jurisdiction of Rome in the canons. That's 979 00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:30.599 why they ignore this argument because it's so strong against 980 00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:33.360 their position, and then when you ask them about it, 981 00:58:33.400 --> 00:58:36.159 they just say, yeah, that's because they all everybody already 982 00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:38.480 knew that romeh had universe jurisdiction, even though their papacy 983 00:58:38.519 --> 00:58:40.239 admits that dead this is so insane. 984 00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:47.039 As Peter's successor, and then in terms of actual governing authority, 985 00:58:47.199 --> 00:58:51.840 he had no more authority than other Apostolic sees with autocephaly. 986 00:58:52.119 --> 00:58:56.519 Yeah, which is what the Ecumenical Canons literally just said, 987 00:58:56.559 --> 00:59:01.400 and what your own Vatican says. So autocephaly is not 988 00:59:01.840 --> 00:59:06.480 every bishop is not autocephalus. That's a specific thing that's 989 00:59:06.519 --> 00:59:09.840 granted by councils to certain churches. I hang up with that. 990 00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:13.239 I would say that from the very beginning of my conversion, 991 00:59:13.239 --> 00:59:16.440 when I started reading Scripture, it was obvious that Peter 992 00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:19.039 was the chief and the head of the Apostles. 993 00:59:19.239 --> 00:59:22.239 It's actually a fallacy, right, because these are highly contentious 994 00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:28.239 versus with two thousand years of accretions and Exejesus and 995 00:59:28.280 --> 00:59:30.800 is of Jesus attached to them. So the fact that 996 00:59:30.840 --> 00:59:33.960 you picked up the Bible, notice how Protestant this is. 997 00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:37.320 It's just so obvious, it's just clear in the text. Now, 998 00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:41.719 this is a fallacy of simplicity that again it's just obvious, 999 00:59:41.719 --> 00:59:44.480 it's just clear. It's just there, it's self evident. Right. 1000 00:59:45.559 --> 00:59:50.960 But again, there's two competing models or paradigms of interpreting 1001 00:59:51.639 --> 00:59:56.400 this massive data. To keep using your paradigm model against 1002 00:59:56.440 --> 00:59:59.400 ours is what doesn't work, and it's very I don't 1003 00:59:59.400 --> 01:00:01.400 know why it's so so hard to convey this to people. 1004 01:00:01.800 --> 01:00:03.760 People just don't have the ability, I don't think to 1005 01:00:03.800 --> 01:00:08.199 think in this sort of paradigm level way. 1006 01:00:09.039 --> 01:00:12.679 And it's but it's hard to defend that Peter is 1007 01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:16.599 that which the East recognizes, but that his successors are 1008 01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:20.599 not somehow ahead of the successors of the other apostles, 1009 01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:24.960 that they have autonomous authority apart from him. There's always 1010 01:00:25.000 --> 01:00:27.719 been a logical challenge to disclaim in my mind, because 1011 01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:30.639 let's explore something that both East and West affirm, which 1012 01:00:30.639 --> 01:00:33.760 is the hierarchical and nature of the church. The Church 1013 01:00:33.800 --> 01:00:34.920 is not a gallant. 1014 01:00:34.679 --> 01:00:37.239 So notice it's true that the church is not a galitarian, 1015 01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:42.280 but they just cannot compute that the church is decentralized. 1016 01:00:43.079 --> 01:00:46.400 So when they hear decentralized, they assume chaos and democracy. 1017 01:00:46.599 --> 01:00:50.480 That's not what decentralization means. Bitcoin is a decentralized network. 1018 01:00:50.679 --> 01:00:54.599 It's not chaos, it's just simply decentralized. Now there are 1019 01:00:54.639 --> 01:00:59.119 within a decentralized system, authorities and hierarchies but there's nothing 1020 01:00:59.119 --> 01:01:02.360 about the word higher or the word authority that necessarily 1021 01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:05.960 proves or leads you to the conclusion of papacy. You see, 1022 01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:08.280 that's the fallacy here. That's what I was trying to 1023 01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:10.760 argue a minute ago when I said ninety percent of 1024 01:01:10.760 --> 01:01:16.119 these debates about ecclesiology ends up being a missed understanding 1025 01:01:16.360 --> 01:01:21.920 that they can't grasp that our church is decentralized and 1026 01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:27.519 they think that that's somehow necessarily a defeater. Maybe Jesus 1027 01:01:27.559 --> 01:01:30.679 just didn't set up an autocracy. Did you think about that? 1028 01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:36.280 Maybe Jesus institute to day synodal decentralized church, But they 1029 01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:38.360 have any they can't even think about that, Like that's 1030 01:01:38.440 --> 01:01:42.400 just so far out of their paradigm. Every time these 1031 01:01:42.440 --> 01:01:46.599 topics and these terms come up, they interpret it in 1032 01:01:46.679 --> 01:01:50.800 their way. Does that make sense? This is why paradigm 1033 01:01:50.840 --> 01:01:53.440 level thinking is so important, and it's very so difficult 1034 01:01:53.480 --> 01:01:55.280 to convey to these tomas and to these. 1035 01:01:55.239 --> 01:01:59.840 Evidentialists pulitarian the church is organized and structured, and this 1036 01:01:59.880 --> 01:02:02.519 is that's a good thing, which I know is hard 1037 01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:07.599 to hear to our modern liberal democratic instincts to notice. 1038 01:02:07.599 --> 01:02:10.880 He did it right here. He assumes that because there's hierarchy, 1039 01:02:11.039 --> 01:02:15.719 it must be the pyramid Roman Catholic model. No, no, it 1040 01:02:15.719 --> 01:02:20.320 can be a decentralized hierarchy. Hence a sonodal model. 1041 01:02:20.920 --> 01:02:23.639 Conditioning that we've been raised in. We tend to think 1042 01:02:23.639 --> 01:02:26.559 that equality across the board is actually preferable. 1043 01:02:26.679 --> 01:02:28.239 By the way, have you noticed, and I've seen this 1044 01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:32.320 many many times over in probably the majority of Romancalic debates. 1045 01:02:32.920 --> 01:02:36.480 When the problems and the challenges come up, have you 1046 01:02:36.519 --> 01:02:39.239 noticed the first thing that they go to is their 1047 01:02:39.280 --> 01:02:43.840 idea of what authority necessitates. If you believe in authority, 1048 01:02:43.960 --> 01:02:49.480 it must be this model. Well, maybe there's other accounts 1049 01:02:49.480 --> 01:02:51.480 of authority. Did you even think about that? Maybe there's 1050 01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:55.760 another type over structure or model of authority that isn't 1051 01:02:55.800 --> 01:02:58.760 your model of authority. So this is just another basically 1052 01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:03.519 question begging exercise. It's just assuming that we need authority, 1053 01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:06.920 we need hierarchy. The papacy offers authority in hierarchy. Therefore 1054 01:03:06.920 --> 01:03:09.280 the papacy is true. But how do we know that 1055 01:03:09.320 --> 01:03:12.320 it's your model or that your idea of what authority 1056 01:03:12.440 --> 01:03:14.559 is is self evidently true. That's what this is. That's 1057 01:03:14.599 --> 01:03:15.199 all this is. 1058 01:03:16.039 --> 01:03:19.800 But a society, especially a political society is one that 1059 01:03:19.840 --> 01:03:23.679 agrees to organize itself in a particular way. But the 1060 01:03:23.679 --> 01:03:28.039 more egalitarian you are, the more disorganized you are. 1061 01:03:28.079 --> 01:03:31.079 And so it's a false dialectic between either the papal 1062 01:03:31.159 --> 01:03:35.199 model or its egalitarian democracy. No, no, that's not the 1063 01:03:35.239 --> 01:03:36.199 only two options here. 1064 01:03:36.440 --> 01:03:37.840 Therefore disordered. 1065 01:03:38.320 --> 01:03:41.519 The more hierarchical you are, the more organized you are. 1066 01:03:41.840 --> 01:03:45.159 And there this is precisely why I've said for so 1067 01:03:45.239 --> 01:03:49.599 many years Roman Catholics worship authority. Have you have you? 1068 01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:53.320 Have you caught this? Notice that he's not going to 1069 01:03:53.360 --> 01:04:00.559 the Patristics to explain all the passages about synodalism, collegiality, conciliarism, canons. 1070 01:04:01.039 --> 01:04:04.639 He's starting with a self evident what he thinks his 1071 01:04:04.760 --> 01:04:08.079 obvious idea of what authority must be, and anything that 1072 01:04:08.159 --> 01:04:13.199 isn't that is by default egalitarian chaos democracy. This is 1073 01:04:13.239 --> 01:04:15.719 just a false either or. It's not a choice between 1074 01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:19.639 papism and chaos democracy anarchy. That's a false either or. 1075 01:04:19.880 --> 01:04:21.960 But that's what they have to do to make these 1076 01:04:22.000 --> 01:04:24.920 positions work. Is just kind of appeal to what they 1077 01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:30.840 think authority has to be, ignoring the actual Patristic teaching 1078 01:04:30.880 --> 01:04:36.480 on the church. Do you see that that's huge. Well, 1079 01:04:36.519 --> 01:04:39.280 maybe he's not ignoring the Patricia teaching. Okay, if he's not, 1080 01:04:39.440 --> 01:04:41.159 then why doesn't he talk about the canons of the 1081 01:04:41.159 --> 01:04:44.960 Commenical Councils. I will bet you dollars to donuts whatever 1082 01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:48.480 that even means that he doesn't know what the canons 1083 01:04:48.519 --> 01:04:52.079 of the councils actually say. They never do, they don't care, 1084 01:04:53.960 --> 01:04:56.679 but one thousand dollars Brian Holdsworth has not read the 1085 01:04:56.679 --> 01:05:00.360 Canons of the Commenical Councils. Now you can't come to 1086 01:05:00.400 --> 01:05:03.039 me after this. And then he watches his video and 1087 01:05:03.039 --> 01:05:04.719 goes and reads them and they get your thousand dollars. 1088 01:05:04.719 --> 01:05:06.840 I'm saying that I bet you, at this point you 1089 01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:09.079 cannot prove to me from this point back in history 1090 01:05:09.119 --> 01:05:11.920 that he knows anything about the canons the Ecumenical Councils, 1091 01:05:11.960 --> 01:05:14.159 any of the councils, because there's no way you could 1092 01:05:14.159 --> 01:05:18.639 really argue this unless you're just being deceptive without being 1093 01:05:18.719 --> 01:05:23.639 aware that, like you know, there's tons of canons that 1094 01:05:23.719 --> 01:05:25.800 don't work with Vatican one right. 1095 01:05:26.519 --> 01:05:30.840 Or ordered, and there's great strength in being organized. Imagine 1096 01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:34.480 a grocery store in which nothing was categorized. 1097 01:05:33.880 --> 01:05:36.000 Or organ So here we go again. The corporate model. 1098 01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:38.559 This is what Romancalics always appeal to, is the state 1099 01:05:39.400 --> 01:05:43.880 in corporate I'm not joking, state and corporations. So look, 1100 01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:47.079 Jesus clearly was setting up some kind of corporate state. 1101 01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:49.320 By the way, do you know the Vatican is a 1102 01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:53.559 corporate state. It's the world's first one. That's precisely the 1103 01:05:53.559 --> 01:05:57.800 criticism that we have. Jesus didn't set up a corporation. 1104 01:05:58.159 --> 01:06:01.519 It's not Jesus inc. It's not Vatican Bank run by 1105 01:06:01.559 --> 01:06:03.719 the Rothschilds. Oh wait a minute, that actually is what 1106 01:06:04.239 --> 01:06:06.800 the Romanchelics think. Jesus said, the Vatican Bank run by 1107 01:06:06.800 --> 01:06:09.079 the Rothchilds, which is true, which is the fact. But 1108 01:06:09.079 --> 01:06:11.079 we're supposed to be tradcats and anti jew even the 1109 01:06:11.159 --> 01:06:13.559 Rothchilds are running Vatican Bank. Oh but they don't tell 1110 01:06:13.559 --> 01:06:19.000 you that. No, it's like, the corporate model is not 1111 01:06:19.199 --> 01:06:22.320 the church. You understand, the Church is a unique institution. 1112 01:06:22.639 --> 01:06:25.119 So every time a Romancallic deviates into trying to make 1113 01:06:25.199 --> 01:06:30.159 these analogies to human institutions, they're missing the point of 1114 01:06:30.199 --> 01:06:34.880 a theanthropic institution whose head is Christ governing through the 1115 01:06:34.880 --> 01:06:38.320 Holy Spirit. The big glaring mistake in all of this 1116 01:06:38.639 --> 01:06:40.679 is to not believe in the work of the Holy Spirit. 1117 01:06:42.159 --> 01:06:44.719 It's as if the Holy Spirit can't speak through a synod, 1118 01:06:44.760 --> 01:06:47.599 even though he does in Acts fifteen. Ever, since Acts fifteen, 1119 01:06:47.639 --> 01:06:50.719 the Holy Spirit can only speak through one guy. He's 1120 01:06:50.719 --> 01:06:58.320 that weak. Only Rome apparently is the choice voice box 1121 01:06:58.360 --> 01:07:01.639 of the Holy Spirit, whereas in the Book of Acts 1122 01:07:01.760 --> 01:07:05.360 he falls on all the College of the Apostles. Why 1123 01:07:05.400 --> 01:07:07.800 is it that only Peter is the voice of the 1124 01:07:07.800 --> 01:07:11.760 Holy Spirit. Isn't it interesting that as the philioquay heresy 1125 01:07:12.639 --> 01:07:17.840 rises to prominence in the eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh, twelfth century, 1126 01:07:17.960 --> 01:07:22.800 at the exact same time the papal heresy arises that 1127 01:07:23.360 --> 01:07:25.559 only the mouth of Peter, in the mouth the Holy 1128 01:07:25.599 --> 01:07:30.000 Spirit in the mouth of Jesus are in Rome. It's 1129 01:07:30.039 --> 01:07:33.360 like there's a connection between the phillioquay and the papacy. 1130 01:07:34.239 --> 01:07:37.000 Of course there is. In fact, Philip Grard has a 1131 01:07:37.000 --> 01:07:42.239 whole chapter on the infallible connection between the papacy and 1132 01:07:42.280 --> 01:07:45.840 the Phillyoquay and why this is such a massive delusion 1133 01:07:45.880 --> 01:07:49.880 and a massive heresy. The two go together because ultimately 1134 01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:51.880 it's the pope that ends up sending the Holy Spirit 1135 01:07:51.920 --> 01:07:55.599 to the Church. Jesus is no longer the economia. Right, 1136 01:07:55.920 --> 01:07:59.679 the incarnate Christ who breathes on the apostles and sends 1137 01:07:59.679 --> 01:08:03.280 the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, that's economia, that's not Philly Okuay. 1138 01:08:04.119 --> 01:08:07.880 And once the papacy rises to its geopolitical power, it's 1139 01:08:07.920 --> 01:08:10.559 only natural that the papacy would then say, I alone 1140 01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:12.960 give the Holy Spirit to the bishops. I alone the 1141 01:08:13.360 --> 01:08:15.480 declare all the bishops in the world, even though I 1142 01:08:15.559 --> 01:08:20.560 just showed you Nicia says that all it takes to 1143 01:08:20.600 --> 01:08:23.319 have a bishop is the bishops of the local province 1144 01:08:23.319 --> 01:08:28.039 appointing him. How do you not understand that this is 1145 01:08:28.079 --> 01:08:31.920 a massive deviation in ecclesiology. Well, he's the pope. He 1146 01:08:31.920 --> 01:08:35.000 could do what he wants. The pope can do what 1147 01:08:35.039 --> 01:08:39.000 he want. Oh, can he change natural law to say 1148 01:08:39.000 --> 01:08:40.880 that the death penalty is now against the Gospel? Well, 1149 01:08:40.880 --> 01:08:43.239 apparently he can. To these people, this is how insane 1150 01:08:43.239 --> 01:08:45.840 this cult. This is a cult, dude. Look, it's a cult. 1151 01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:47.920 That's a lot. That's that's what we have to Nobody 1152 01:08:47.920 --> 01:08:51.479 can reason rationally about this within this system because it's 1153 01:08:51.479 --> 01:08:58.880 a freaking cult. That's it. Well, you can't know the truth. 1154 01:08:59.239 --> 01:09:01.520 The pope, he has to solve all the problems in 1155 01:09:01.560 --> 01:09:04.920 the church. Oh okay, then how did anyone know the 1156 01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:07.680 Christian faith in the year three hundred? Without access to 1157 01:09:07.760 --> 01:09:16.399 Rome and without any ecumenical councils, they had to write 1158 01:09:16.399 --> 01:09:18.479 a letter to the Bishop of Room. Remember when I 1159 01:09:18.520 --> 01:09:21.399 asked a Borrow When this came up with a bar Well, 1160 01:09:21.439 --> 01:09:24.600 the pope couldn't solve every controversy because if he did, 1161 01:09:25.119 --> 01:09:28.159 the better cand to be full of papers. He wouldn't 1162 01:09:28.199 --> 01:09:30.560 be able to walk around the better because all the 1163 01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:35.199 papers were I'm not joking that was well wait a minute, idiot, 1164 01:09:35.239 --> 01:09:38.119 you're the one that argues that the whole point of 1165 01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:40.720 the papacy is to solve the disputes. Then why do 1166 01:09:40.760 --> 01:09:43.399 we need ecumenical councils? What a waste of time. In 1167 01:09:43.439 --> 01:09:47.960 the ancient world, we have hundreds of bishops traveling hundreds 1168 01:09:47.960 --> 01:09:50.880 of miles of risking death and disease to get to 1169 01:09:50.960 --> 01:09:54.079 some imperial city. All they had to do is write 1170 01:09:54.079 --> 01:09:59.039 a letter to Rome. Case closed? Why are we having 1171 01:09:59.039 --> 01:10:03.239 councils at all? If ro spoken? Cases closed? And you 1172 01:10:03.239 --> 01:10:05.680 know what it Borrow says about this will dude the 1173 01:10:06.560 --> 01:10:10.159 for Domini centuries the church he head the Poe, buddy, 1174 01:10:10.199 --> 01:10:12.800 did he use it? Oh, thank you for failing the church. 1175 01:10:12.960 --> 01:10:16.199 Thank you for making this a thousand times more difficult 1176 01:10:16.439 --> 01:10:19.079 than it has to be. You could have just solved 1177 01:10:19.079 --> 01:10:21.319 all these you just do an extra showe to Poe 1178 01:10:21.399 --> 01:10:24.760 with duddy hood. I'm not kidding. This is the people. 1179 01:10:24.760 --> 01:10:26.479 They think. This is the fat guy they think is like, 1180 01:10:26.600 --> 01:10:28.880 is the greatest apologist? Is this guy who says this 1181 01:10:28.960 --> 01:10:32.600 kind of stuff? No. One five two dollars. Debate the Mormons. 1182 01:10:32.600 --> 01:10:35.439 If the Mormons call in, I will debate them. Please 1183 01:10:35.479 --> 01:10:38.000 call in Mormons. Chandler White. A long time ago, I 1184 01:10:38.039 --> 01:10:40.600 gave you four and a half inward passes because I 1185 01:10:40.640 --> 01:10:45.960 have four one fourth black children. My wife is half black. However, 1186 01:10:46.000 --> 01:10:47.720 I found out that a fifth child is on the way, 1187 01:10:47.800 --> 01:10:49.920 so you can have one more one fourth inward pass 1188 01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:51.960 Thank you. I mean, the dude, those are racked up. 1189 01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:56.359 I mean I basically could just be like super racist 1190 01:10:56.399 --> 01:10:59.680 for a year and nobody can do anything because I've 1191 01:10:59.680 --> 01:11:03.920 got like it's in the twenties now of passes. Austin 1192 01:11:03.960 --> 01:11:06.600 Alverarez five dollars. I went to Saint Mary's Orthodox Church 1193 01:11:06.640 --> 01:11:08.479 in Minneapolis, and it turns out a girl from this 1194 01:11:08.560 --> 01:11:11.760 parish was hit in the tra n Z event. On 1195 01:11:11.800 --> 01:11:16.439 the twenty seventh, everybody prayed for Sophia at Saint Mary's 1196 01:11:16.520 --> 01:11:20.720 Orthodox Church. Yes, please do That's terrible. I mean again, 1197 01:11:20.800 --> 01:11:23.039 I go watch my stream yesterday on what I think 1198 01:11:23.159 --> 01:11:25.920 is going on. Schmuck, schmuck. Two dollars. Do you know 1199 01:11:25.960 --> 01:11:29.720 anything about the Bahai faith? I mean it's a syncretous, 1200 01:11:29.720 --> 01:11:31.760 relativistic cult. I haven't. I don't have done. I haven't 1201 01:11:31.760 --> 01:11:33.960 done a specific video on it, but I mean any 1202 01:11:34.079 --> 01:11:36.960 sort of basic presup would refute be high stuff. G 1203 01:11:37.079 --> 01:11:40.279 twenty six five dollars. Jay was actually teaching Tim Gordon 1204 01:11:40.319 --> 01:11:42.000 in the Catholic position the whole time that debate was 1205 01:11:42.039 --> 01:11:44.760 going on. I was very embarrassing for the papers. Yeah, 1206 01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:46.600 and he tried to play like he knew what he 1207 01:11:46.640 --> 01:11:49.399 was saying, that he was right. But then again he 1208 01:11:49.520 --> 01:11:52.359 conceded to me, not just the Philly oquay. He conceded 1209 01:11:52.399 --> 01:11:54.800 the Philly oquy part publicly at the end of the debate, 1210 01:11:55.720 --> 01:11:59.000 and then he privately afterwards when we were talking, said Yo, 1211 01:11:59.079 --> 01:12:02.239 you were right about universe magistrate. Well, thank you, silent 1212 01:12:02.319 --> 01:12:04.640 juice five dollars Jay, What happened to that Chris guy 1213 01:12:04.640 --> 01:12:08.039 from Hookbusters is John, the same guy that calls in. 1214 01:12:08.079 --> 01:12:10.159 I'm not going to speak to who the John of 1215 01:12:09.960 --> 01:12:14.319 the Chriss are. But Chris did pass away, so pray 1216 01:12:14.399 --> 01:12:17.800 for Chris. He was a great guy. We hung out 1217 01:12:17.840 --> 01:12:21.000 with Chris in person. We missed Chris quite a bit, 1218 01:12:21.720 --> 01:12:24.479 but he did pass away. KL five dollars. I rewatched 1219 01:12:24.640 --> 01:12:27.560 the Tim Poole debate with Tim Gordon. You actually cited 1220 01:12:27.640 --> 01:12:30.760 lumin Gentium where it says together we adore the one God. 1221 01:12:31.119 --> 01:12:35.079 Tim Gordon quietly said, with us monotheus. I missed that 1222 01:12:35.159 --> 01:12:40.119 the first time exactly exactly. So he tried to say 1223 01:12:41.319 --> 01:12:45.760 together with us just generic monotheus, but it actually says 1224 01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:49.640 together with us Catholics. So he's trying. Tim is like 1225 01:12:49.680 --> 01:12:52.159 a lawyer who will immediately try to paint the narrative 1226 01:12:52.199 --> 01:12:55.880 in some opposite way. Buddy p two hundred dollars. When 1227 01:12:55.960 --> 01:13:01.239 is a debate review? I'm not sure because I'm trying 1228 01:13:01.239 --> 01:13:03.560 to organize with David Rhon and Rhan is in Turkey 1229 01:13:03.640 --> 01:13:06.279 and he's, you know, he's got his own life going. 1230 01:13:06.319 --> 01:13:08.800 He's got exciting things happening in his life right now. 1231 01:13:09.840 --> 01:13:16.680 So props are our buddy, our old school orthobro David Erhanu. 1232 01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:19.000 But I think we'll probably trying to make that happen soon. 1233 01:13:20.239 --> 01:13:23.079 Swinter is two dollars? Would you debate James White? So 1234 01:13:23.399 --> 01:13:27.039 James White offered to only debate me. I'm tired of 1235 01:13:27.039 --> 01:13:29.680 telling the story because they it's just so dishonest. They 1236 01:13:29.680 --> 01:13:36.079 act like I ran from James White. James White didn't 1237 01:13:36.119 --> 01:13:38.279 offer to debate me on what I've been asking him 1238 01:13:38.279 --> 01:13:40.680 to debate for years. He changed the topic and said 1239 01:13:41.000 --> 01:13:44.479 he'll debate icons in the Seventh Council if I live 1240 01:13:44.560 --> 01:13:48.079 within RB driving distance. I mean, what the hell is that? 1241 01:13:48.560 --> 01:13:50.079 First of all, I'm not telling he doesn't need to 1242 01:13:50.079 --> 01:13:53.800 know where I live. I don't trust that dude at all. Secondly, 1243 01:13:54.560 --> 01:13:56.560 it wasn't a debate on what I want to debate. 1244 01:13:56.560 --> 01:13:58.439 And third it wasn't actually offered to debate. It was 1245 01:13:58.479 --> 01:14:00.680 only if it was in driving distance requires me to 1246 01:14:00.680 --> 01:14:02.479 tell him where I live, and I'm not. This is 1247 01:14:02.520 --> 01:14:05.159 just all super gay. He can easily hop on it 1248 01:14:05.279 --> 01:14:07.600 on the internet and do a debate, which he's not 1249 01:14:07.600 --> 01:14:09.760 gonna do. R M two forty nine. Why do we 1250 01:14:09.800 --> 01:14:12.720 call God the Father? Well, he's revealed as our father. 1251 01:14:13.640 --> 01:14:19.479 So beyond that, I mean Lexus crash out one dollar. 1252 01:14:19.640 --> 01:14:21.800 A good proof that Catholicism is faking gay is all 1253 01:14:21.800 --> 01:14:24.760 the Calolic priests actually act like weird skittle salesmen and 1254 01:14:24.840 --> 01:14:29.039 customer service people. Orthodox scourgy actually act like normal people, 1255 01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:34.359 like nineteen eighty TV commercials, authentic exactly. That's funny. It's 1256 01:14:34.359 --> 01:14:38.399 a good way to put it. John, I'm sorry, Let's 1257 01:14:38.399 --> 01:14:40.560 go to you, because I saw you were waiting. I 1258 01:14:40.640 --> 01:14:42.119 want to go ahead and go to you, and then 1259 01:14:42.159 --> 01:14:45.479 we'll go to our Protestant friend here who's been saying 1260 01:14:45.520 --> 01:14:53.000 he wants to chat John. What's up, John? Are you 1261 01:14:53.039 --> 01:15:04.159 able to talk? If not, I'll go to Seoul? Hey, Jay, Yeah, 1262 01:15:04.159 --> 01:15:05.720 and then we'll go to Salt. I mean to John, 1263 01:15:05.760 --> 01:15:06.159 what's up? 1264 01:15:08.560 --> 01:15:08.760 So? 1265 01:15:09.279 --> 01:15:13.159 I watched the Tim debate, and I don't. 1266 01:15:13.000 --> 01:15:15.680 Think Tim is really representing their position. Well, so I 1267 01:15:15.760 --> 01:15:16.760 kind of want to see how. 1268 01:15:16.680 --> 01:15:20.680 You're going to move if it's represented the way I 1269 01:15:20.680 --> 01:15:26.800 think probably Iborrow would represent it. So if you'll give 1270 01:15:26.880 --> 01:15:29.039 me like thirty seconds all the way out what I 1271 01:15:29.079 --> 01:15:35.039 think they're saying. Okay, So, in Catholic thought, the trendy 1272 01:15:35.199 --> 01:15:41.000 is explained by eternal notional acts and God generation aspiration. 1273 01:15:41.960 --> 01:15:43.960 Each act has an active side and the. 1274 01:15:44.000 --> 01:15:47.920 Passive side, and each terminates in its proper effect. 1275 01:15:49.079 --> 01:15:52.000 So well, first of all, that I mean, that's problematic 1276 01:15:52.039 --> 01:15:55.239 from the outset because it's not the capit doc teaching. 1277 01:15:55.239 --> 01:15:57.880 It's not called out number one. The persons are not 1278 01:15:58.039 --> 01:16:01.479 notions or notional effects or notionally distinct. 1279 01:16:03.239 --> 01:16:07.279 Yeah, from this seems to be like almost like some 1280 01:16:07.439 --> 01:16:09.119 type of logical prior. 1281 01:16:09.439 --> 01:16:12.159 It's like a logical framework they use for. 1282 01:16:14.000 --> 01:16:16.800 Verbalizing this stuff, and it seems to have some type 1283 01:16:16.800 --> 01:16:20.640 of priority involved in it, where like logically you kind 1284 01:16:20.680 --> 01:16:25.359 of start with this essence that yeah, doesn't do these powers, 1285 01:16:25.640 --> 01:16:30.119 but it kind of has the logical capacity to do them. 1286 01:16:30.199 --> 01:16:31.720 They're always actualized. 1287 01:16:31.840 --> 01:16:36.439 But in their way of explaining the trinity, I guess 1288 01:16:36.439 --> 01:16:39.319 in their head they're kind of doing the one torch 1289 01:16:39.399 --> 01:16:42.159 lights another torch which lights another torch type of. 1290 01:16:42.840 --> 01:16:48.479 Thing in their head. But so they that is what 1291 01:16:48.520 --> 01:16:49.159 they say though. 1292 01:16:49.239 --> 01:16:52.439 Okay, but I asked him, Gordon, h if the son 1293 01:16:52.560 --> 01:16:55.359 has the power of cause, because he said the father 1294 01:16:55.479 --> 01:16:57.840 is the cause and he's giving that power of causing 1295 01:16:57.840 --> 01:17:02.600 to the son, and so if that's what shows equality 1296 01:17:02.640 --> 01:17:04.800 between the father and the son. Then what is the 1297 01:17:04.880 --> 01:17:08.840 spirit's power to cause? And it's not a cause. Passive 1298 01:17:08.840 --> 01:17:11.359 aspiration is not a cause. But he actually said it 1299 01:17:11.439 --> 01:17:13.640 was a cause. He made that mistake there. 1300 01:17:13.680 --> 01:17:15.239 I don't think he should have said. I think he 1301 01:17:15.279 --> 01:17:18.000 should have you know, admitted to misspeaking there. 1302 01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:21.119 Okay, Well, I mean you've read the mystagogy, right, yeah, okay, 1303 01:17:21.159 --> 01:17:24.279 So what in the mystagogy in any way lines up 1304 01:17:24.319 --> 01:17:28.159 with this tomistic idea of notional distinctions? With it, it 1305 01:17:28.159 --> 01:17:33.199 almost sounds like a it's an appropriation of the Augustinian 1306 01:17:33.279 --> 01:17:37.439 idea of the psychological analogy of the trinity, that the 1307 01:17:37.479 --> 01:17:40.800 Father is the mind, the Son is the will, or 1308 01:17:40.840 --> 01:17:43.319 the son is the Father is the mind of the 1309 01:17:43.319 --> 01:17:45.520 Son is the speech, and the Spirit is the will. 1310 01:17:46.119 --> 01:17:50.960 But they're trying to appropriate that for these relations within 1311 01:17:51.079 --> 01:17:54.199 a within a glob. So they have this idea that 1312 01:17:54.239 --> 01:17:57.880 the Trinity is this essentialist monad or God is an 1313 01:17:57.920 --> 01:18:00.720 essentialist monad, and then within this mona there are these 1314 01:18:00.800 --> 01:18:04.600 relational distinctions. But the best critique of this is when Loski. 1315 01:18:04.800 --> 01:18:07.880 Have you read Loski's a I can't remember if it's 1316 01:18:08.239 --> 01:18:12.039 mistical theology or the the vision of light book. 1317 01:18:13.720 --> 01:18:16.199 I've read bits and pieces of mystical theology, but. 1318 01:18:16.159 --> 01:18:18.199 I haven't read that. Okay, the other one is necessary 1319 01:18:18.199 --> 01:18:21.760 because he has a great critique of person is relation 1320 01:18:22.840 --> 01:18:27.279 and that's the that's what this Tomistic idea is grounded in, 1321 01:18:27.359 --> 01:18:30.079 that persons are the relations between the two. 1322 01:18:30.199 --> 01:18:33.840 Or between So when I was talking with Ibara, he says, essentially, 1323 01:18:33.960 --> 01:18:36.880 there's I don't know why they state this principle other 1324 01:18:36.960 --> 01:18:40.279 than arbitrarily, so maybe you can help me figure out 1325 01:18:40.279 --> 01:18:43.760 why they say this. But he essentially says all things 1326 01:18:43.760 --> 01:18:46.560 are equal except where relative opposition. 1327 01:18:46.680 --> 01:18:50.479 You know, Okay, I just shared the papers that critique 1328 01:18:50.760 --> 01:18:54.800 relative relations of opposition. It's there's a Lossky paper that 1329 01:18:54.840 --> 01:18:58.279 critiques it. And even Eves Kongar, who's the Roman Catholic, 1330 01:18:58.359 --> 01:19:02.079 has a paper saying that this development that Thomas has 1331 01:19:02.119 --> 01:19:05.000 out of Augustinian ideas is not the Cappudocan teaching. 1332 01:19:06.319 --> 01:19:06.520 Yeah. 1333 01:19:06.640 --> 01:19:09.760 Well, I agree with you that it's not the Cappudocean teaching, right, 1334 01:19:09.800 --> 01:19:11.920 But I also don't think this is. 1335 01:19:11.880 --> 01:19:15.439 The view that Tim put forth into debate to you, right, like. 1336 01:19:17.520 --> 01:19:21.079 He was trying to clearly, but I mean the notion 1337 01:19:21.159 --> 01:19:25.760 of passive uh, you know, spiration or begetting has. 1338 01:19:25.600 --> 01:19:26.720 Nothing to do with cause ation. 1339 01:19:26.720 --> 01:19:29.760 Okay, but I mean that's a medieval scholastic invention. There's 1340 01:19:29.760 --> 01:19:32.920 nothing about paths of spiration any of the Church fathers 1341 01:19:34.119 --> 01:19:36.000 to my knowledge. So this is this is something that 1342 01:19:36.039 --> 01:19:38.479 they've made up to make sense of what it means 1343 01:19:38.520 --> 01:19:42.960 to have a power, just because again, if the spirit 1344 01:19:43.079 --> 01:19:45.000 lacks this power, then what does he have. Well, he 1345 01:19:45.039 --> 01:19:48.119 has the power of spy. What spiration is what picks 1346 01:19:48.199 --> 01:19:51.520 him out? How could he have spiration? Oh well, it's passive. 1347 01:19:52.039 --> 01:19:53.560 What does that I mean to me? It's just a 1348 01:19:53.600 --> 01:19:54.359 nonsense term. 1349 01:19:54.399 --> 01:19:55.279 Does mean well to me. 1350 01:19:55.359 --> 01:19:58.960 What they're trying to say there is that like in 1351 01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:03.560 their mind, the son doesn't forget because his personal property 1352 01:20:03.960 --> 01:20:08.000 is to be the effect of the generative act of 1353 01:20:08.039 --> 01:20:10.800 the essence of the Father, I guess, because the essence 1354 01:20:10.800 --> 01:20:13.359 doesn't actually generate according to Lattering. 1355 01:20:13.399 --> 01:20:18.600 For again, I mean their their position equates a relation 1356 01:20:18.800 --> 01:20:23.119 with a person. Okay, Aquinas says persona at rolatio a 1357 01:20:23.159 --> 01:20:27.199 person is relation. So this is a fundamental blunder because 1358 01:20:27.319 --> 01:20:30.039 they think person and nature are identical. They don't think 1359 01:20:30.039 --> 01:20:34.319 they're really distinct. Orthodoxy he thinks they're really distinct. So 1360 01:20:34.359 --> 01:20:36.920 they think that if that's the if person and nature 1361 01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:41.680 are actually identical, then what how would we distinguish them? 1362 01:20:41.920 --> 01:20:45.039 And I don't think they understand hypostatic properties. You're calling 1363 01:20:45.079 --> 01:20:48.479 impersonal properties, but that's why they would go to There's 1364 01:20:48.520 --> 01:20:51.319 no there's literally no reason why you would do relations 1365 01:20:51.319 --> 01:20:54.439 of opposition unless you had a struggle with trying to 1366 01:20:54.479 --> 01:20:57.840 distinguish the person's. Even Augustine, when you read on the Trinity, 1367 01:20:58.239 --> 01:21:01.279 he struggles with how to distinguish them, and he does, 1368 01:21:01.319 --> 01:21:04.000 in one point admit that, yeah, it does seem like 1369 01:21:04.039 --> 01:21:07.399 the father is the principal cause, but because he's given 1370 01:21:07.479 --> 01:21:10.880 cause to the son explicitly, he then has to figure 1371 01:21:10.880 --> 01:21:14.960 out a way. Well, I can't distinguish the persons strictly 1372 01:21:15.199 --> 01:21:17.720 with cause because that's something that father and son have, 1373 01:21:18.199 --> 01:21:21.880 So I need another way to actually distinguish these persons. 1374 01:21:22.439 --> 01:21:25.399 And he talks about relative opposition. I'm going from here. 1375 01:21:25.399 --> 01:21:28.319 I think he does, but more specifically, Aquitas builds on 1376 01:21:28.359 --> 01:21:31.119 it and flushes it out even further. But the problem 1377 01:21:31.119 --> 01:21:35.199 with relative opposition is that number one, God is equally 1378 01:21:35.279 --> 01:21:38.760 triad as much as he is Monad. He's not. There's 1379 01:21:38.800 --> 01:21:42.359 no die ad at all to have relative opposition requires 1380 01:21:42.399 --> 01:21:45.039 a diead. This is a critique that's made in God 1381 01:21:45.079 --> 01:21:47.119 His Should Dialectic, Volume one. I didn't make this up. 1382 01:21:47.159 --> 01:21:50.640 It's his critique. But beyond that, and it also gets 1383 01:21:50.640 --> 01:21:53.000 into Patristic ways of number theory and how they count 1384 01:21:53.039 --> 01:21:56.239 it counted by division. That's why you don't have in 1385 01:21:56.319 --> 01:22:00.479 the In the Creed it says one and undivided, because 1386 01:22:00.520 --> 01:22:03.399 the Patristic means of counting was particularly for the trinity 1387 01:22:03.800 --> 01:22:06.920 in terms of his nature. He's undivided. But the persons 1388 01:22:06.960 --> 01:22:09.960 are divided. Right, how do I get father and son? 1389 01:22:10.039 --> 01:22:12.199 While I divide the father, the father is not the son. 1390 01:22:12.279 --> 01:22:14.840 It doesn't mean that you're actually you're not. It doesn't 1391 01:22:14.840 --> 01:22:17.640 mean you're literally dividing them. It just means counting by division. 1392 01:22:18.039 --> 01:22:20.960 So persons are counted by division. The essence, I assume 1393 01:22:21.000 --> 01:22:23.520 mean by identity. The essence is counted by division. That's 1394 01:22:23.520 --> 01:22:27.199 why the Creed says one and undivided. Are you familiar 1395 01:22:27.239 --> 01:22:31.239 with this? Yeah, okay, so it's I'm not trying to 1396 01:22:31.279 --> 01:22:33.039 go off topic. I'm saying there's a reason why I'm 1397 01:22:33.039 --> 01:22:36.840 saying this. And Ambiguo one Maximus talks about the Patristic 1398 01:22:36.880 --> 01:22:40.680 way of counting, and he talks about monad diead try it. Okay, 1399 01:22:41.000 --> 01:22:47.279 that's how you count patristically when you're doing like when 1400 01:22:47.319 --> 01:22:48.880 you're when you're picking out the persons, you have to 1401 01:22:48.920 --> 01:22:50.760 put this was this was the Jake debate when we 1402 01:22:50.800 --> 01:22:53.720 had to do the LPT. Anyway, those are all separate 1403 01:22:53.720 --> 01:22:56.039 topics that I mentioned in passing in the debate. But 1404 01:22:56.479 --> 01:23:00.760 the main issue is that the whole reason why there's 1405 01:23:00.800 --> 01:23:04.239 a problem is because they think that person and nature 1406 01:23:04.279 --> 01:23:08.000 are identical in the trinity. They're only notionally distinct. Aquinas 1407 01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:09.560 says that explicitly, Augusta. 1408 01:23:09.640 --> 01:23:11.560 They wouldn't admit to that in a debate. 1409 01:23:11.640 --> 01:23:13.760 Like, no, no, it's not. It's not controversial. 1410 01:23:14.840 --> 01:23:17.039 So you think if I ask the bar or nature 1411 01:23:17.079 --> 01:23:18.600 in person the same thing, he'll tell me. 1412 01:23:18.720 --> 01:23:21.439 Yeah, yeah, he's he's said that in the past on 1413 01:23:21.439 --> 01:23:25.520 a record. Aquinas says, they're ration, they're notionally distinct. 1414 01:23:27.239 --> 01:23:27.960 Yeah. 1415 01:23:28.039 --> 01:23:30.159 So now they want to say, okay, well, how are 1416 01:23:30.199 --> 01:23:32.880 we really going to distinguish the persons? Then? If person 1417 01:23:32.880 --> 01:23:35.880 in nature are identical but only from the human Vanture's point, 1418 01:23:35.960 --> 01:23:40.079 conceptually distinct, how do we distinguish them? It can't be 1419 01:23:40.199 --> 01:23:42.880 on the basis of relation to origin. That's the orthodox view, 1420 01:23:43.399 --> 01:23:48.560 because that would mean hypostatic properties, right, Yeah, because the 1421 01:23:48.640 --> 01:23:51.119 son also has the power to cause. So cause can't 1422 01:23:51.159 --> 01:23:53.439 be the thing that picks out the father because two 1423 01:23:53.479 --> 01:23:56.920 people have cause. Okay, so how do we distinguish them 1424 01:23:57.159 --> 01:23:59.960 relative opposition, relationship opposition? The father is not the son, 1425 01:24:00.159 --> 01:24:02.359 the spirit, The son is not the spirit, not the father, 1426 01:24:02.399 --> 01:24:06.680 et cetera. It's stupid because that is a quality that 1427 01:24:06.800 --> 01:24:10.600 all three share, all three share, not being the other two. 1428 01:24:10.880 --> 01:24:11.880 It's really stupid. 1429 01:24:12.640 --> 01:24:12.920 Yeah. 1430 01:24:12.960 --> 01:24:17.079 And a person is not a relation. A person is 1431 01:24:17.119 --> 01:24:22.760 a subject. A relation is a predicate. That's Losky's critique 1432 01:24:22.760 --> 01:24:23.640 of this nonsense. 1433 01:24:25.319 --> 01:24:29.560 Okay, And how did did Aquinas just kind of look 1434 01:24:29.600 --> 01:24:34.560 at Aristotle's metaphysical categories and go, hmmm, I think relation 1435 01:24:34.800 --> 01:24:37.239 is probably the best one I can use here or 1436 01:24:37.319 --> 01:24:39.800 is there some other basis that he. 1437 01:24:39.880 --> 01:24:41.560 I don't think it had anything to do with Aristotle. 1438 01:24:42.920 --> 01:24:44.960 Well, I mean he's looking at his he's looking at 1439 01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:50.439 his categories, right, and he's like, going, relation is the 1440 01:24:50.479 --> 01:24:53.279 best thing that I can use here at the metaphysical 1441 01:24:53.359 --> 01:24:56.239 level of the trinity to explain the distinctions. 1442 01:24:56.399 --> 01:25:01.119 Right now, he's pulling from Augustine, where Augustine, using Greek dialectics, 1443 01:25:01.159 --> 01:25:05.199 consider the possibility of relational opposition from neoplatonism. It's nothing 1444 01:25:05.199 --> 01:25:08.199 to do with Aristotle. Gustin is pulling from on the 1445 01:25:08.239 --> 01:25:13.039 trinity and opposition and could you cash these out as 1446 01:25:13.039 --> 01:25:16.640 distinct through not being the others, which is again not 1447 01:25:16.800 --> 01:25:19.840 being the others? Is not a subject, I mean, it 1448 01:25:20.079 --> 01:25:22.560 doesn't tell you anything like you could say, is it 1449 01:25:22.560 --> 01:25:24.880 true to say Jay is not the chair, Jay is 1450 01:25:24.920 --> 01:25:27.359 not the bench, Jay is not the shelf. Yeah, those 1451 01:25:27.359 --> 01:25:29.479 are all true, but they don't tell you who Jay is. 1452 01:25:29.920 --> 01:25:33.279 They don't tell you. They're just negative qualities that don't 1453 01:25:33.359 --> 01:25:38.800 identify the subject. That's why the Cappadocians say it's the 1454 01:25:38.840 --> 01:25:42.279 Father that is the principal source and origin of the Godhead, 1455 01:25:42.399 --> 01:25:45.760 not the essence the Father. And that's why the Creed 1456 01:25:45.800 --> 01:25:48.560 picks out monarchical trinitarianism, says, I believe in one God, 1457 01:25:48.640 --> 01:25:52.680 the Father above all right, and that's why his hypothetic 1458 01:25:52.720 --> 01:25:55.800 property can't be shared with the son. So the whole 1459 01:25:55.920 --> 01:25:59.680 error starts from confusing nature in person, thinking that there're 1460 01:25:59.680 --> 01:26:05.079 only no distinct, not really distinct, and granting the hypoesetic 1461 01:26:05.079 --> 01:26:07.520 property the Father to the son because they don't start 1462 01:26:07.560 --> 01:26:10.079 their trinitarianism. They're they're confused, and they come up with 1463 01:26:10.119 --> 01:26:12.319 all these wild and crazy ideas to make this about that. 1464 01:26:12.399 --> 01:26:14.840 You understand that in some places Aquinas actually says, I'm 1465 01:26:14.840 --> 01:26:16.880 pretty sure I can pull out Sumi countries and teeners. 1466 01:26:16.920 --> 01:26:18.560 He actually says the procession of the Holy Spirit is 1467 01:26:18.600 --> 01:26:22.199 from the essence. He goes even further, it's abu troque. 1468 01:26:22.279 --> 01:26:24.319 I believe, well, how. 1469 01:26:24.239 --> 01:26:26.840 Does how does that job with latter in four? Because 1470 01:26:26.840 --> 01:26:30.199 it's very clear that there's a supreme reality that doesn't forget, 1471 01:26:30.399 --> 01:26:34.239 doesn't spir rate, isn't you know, it's very clear in 1472 01:26:34.319 --> 01:26:37.439 latter in that it doesn't do any of those things. 1473 01:26:37.720 --> 01:26:41.760 I mean again, I think you're looking for uh, harmony 1474 01:26:41.800 --> 01:26:48.000 and consistency amongst the situations and confusion. I'm serious. I 1475 01:26:48.000 --> 01:26:52.560 mean Aquinas contradicts himself because early Aquinas doesn't have any 1476 01:26:52.640 --> 01:26:56.439 position of the monarchy of the Father, and people have 1477 01:26:56.600 --> 01:26:59.279 written about this. Later Aquinas then seems to correct that 1478 01:26:59.399 --> 01:27:01.680 and admit, okay, actually know the Father is the beginning 1479 01:27:01.680 --> 01:27:04.079 point of the Godhead. So how do you make that work? 1480 01:27:04.479 --> 01:27:06.239 I mean they're inconsistent? 1481 01:27:06.319 --> 01:27:11.600 Man, Yeah, I guess to me sometimes it sounds like 1482 01:27:11.680 --> 01:27:14.199 they're trying to say the same things as us. 1483 01:27:14.239 --> 01:27:16.000 They just they're. 1484 01:27:18.119 --> 01:27:20.720 Scholastic terms that are so. 1485 01:27:21.000 --> 01:27:22.760 This by the way, this if you want to see 1486 01:27:22.760 --> 01:27:27.079 where a Quinna says this, it's in Sumicondrad and t 1487 01:27:27.239 --> 01:27:37.079 LA's book four, and it's so he raises the question 1488 01:27:37.279 --> 01:28:01.920 is the spirit spirted from the divine essence? You'll notice 1489 01:28:01.920 --> 01:28:06.840 in section three he uses the human mind analogy. The 1490 01:28:06.880 --> 01:28:08.920 Holy Spirit is the love of God, so that he 1491 01:28:09.000 --> 01:28:14.159 collapses energy or attribute in person. By the way, you know, 1492 01:28:14.199 --> 01:28:15.760 they all, I mean, easy way to refute them is, 1493 01:28:15.800 --> 01:28:17.600 you know they teach that the Holy Spirit proceeds from 1494 01:28:17.640 --> 01:28:22.119 the will of God, which is eron. Do you know 1495 01:28:22.159 --> 01:28:22.760 they teach that. 1496 01:28:24.119 --> 01:28:27.000 I've heard you mentioned that I've never dug very deep 1497 01:28:27.039 --> 01:28:31.880 in on that argument. So all right, well, I was 1498 01:28:31.960 --> 01:28:35.079 just kind of curious how it's interesting because your move 1499 01:28:35.159 --> 01:28:38.079 seemed to be to cut me off at notional acts 1500 01:28:38.119 --> 01:28:43.680 and essentially say that's a historical for a Christian viewpoint. 1501 01:28:43.880 --> 01:28:46.840 That seemed to be your first move when I started speaking. 1502 01:28:47.039 --> 01:28:52.159 So there's analogies that are made in Tertullian or some 1503 01:28:52.199 --> 01:28:58.359 of the apologists to find ways to explain the Trinity, like, okay, 1504 01:28:58.359 --> 01:29:02.640 the Trinity is like the mind, the Son is the Word, 1505 01:29:02.760 --> 01:29:05.600 and the holy spirits like the will or the breath, 1506 01:29:05.880 --> 01:29:08.399 right yea. And what happens is that when a Gostin 1507 01:29:08.439 --> 01:29:12.199 writes on the Trinity, he he does a lot of speculation, 1508 01:29:12.359 --> 01:29:14.279 and he admits that, he says, I'm doing a lot 1509 01:29:14.279 --> 01:29:17.079 of speculation here, and he tries to come up with 1510 01:29:17.119 --> 01:29:23.359 all these ways to make the Trinity rational, cogent. He 1511 01:29:23.439 --> 01:29:27.000 tries to find trinities in nature, little trinities everywhere, to 1512 01:29:27.039 --> 01:29:30.600 try to make the doctrine sensible. He pulls heavily explicitly 1513 01:29:30.680 --> 01:29:34.239 from Plotinus. Right, So he goes to the Eneods, and 1514 01:29:34.319 --> 01:29:35.800 I can't remember it his book four or five, but 1515 01:29:35.840 --> 01:29:37.560 like some of the sections of on the Trinity are 1516 01:29:37.600 --> 01:29:40.319 literally just copied and pasted sections. So Plotinus out of 1517 01:29:40.319 --> 01:29:43.479 the Ideods, which is wild too, by the way. So 1518 01:29:43.840 --> 01:29:47.159 it's a it's a work that's designed to make the 1519 01:29:47.199 --> 01:29:49.920 best case for the Trinity and the most rational case. 1520 01:29:50.079 --> 01:29:52.399 And one of the things he does is he tries 1521 01:29:52.439 --> 01:29:55.920 to come up with models of the human analogy or 1522 01:29:55.960 --> 01:29:59.640 the mind, or distinctions within the mind to make the 1523 01:29:59.680 --> 01:30:04.039 Trinity work too. So when a quitas and later people 1524 01:30:04.079 --> 01:30:06.840 pull from this. They're pulling largely from on the Trinity 1525 01:30:06.880 --> 01:30:09.600 when they try to make the case that there's all 1526 01:30:09.640 --> 01:30:13.159 of these different ways to make the Trinity work. Orthodox 1527 01:30:13.239 --> 01:30:16.439 Christianity only goes with the cappa dootion costs something ople 1528 01:30:16.479 --> 01:30:19.800 one model. That's why you see Photius really just repeating them. 1529 01:30:20.279 --> 01:30:25.880 We don't do all these like creative analogies type moves. 1530 01:30:26.199 --> 01:30:28.359 And that's that's the only way you could even get 1531 01:30:28.399 --> 01:30:34.920 this idea of like, I mean, the Trinity, the son 1532 01:30:35.039 --> 01:30:36.840 is not a notion in the father's mind. 1533 01:30:38.159 --> 01:30:40.720 Well, I don't think that's what they're I'm not entirely 1534 01:30:40.760 --> 01:30:43.119 sure what they mean by a notional act. 1535 01:30:43.199 --> 01:30:47.159 Well again, it's what they mean, is the So they 1536 01:30:47.560 --> 01:30:50.640 they try to say, like you can make an analogy 1537 01:30:50.680 --> 01:30:54.920 again between a mind and a word, right, like like 1538 01:30:55.039 --> 01:31:00.239 the mind produces the word. And because the Bible on 1539 01:31:00.239 --> 01:31:02.680 one uses this analogy, right, Like, they go too far 1540 01:31:02.720 --> 01:31:06.760 with absoluteizing these distinctions. But I mean, assume me these analogies. 1541 01:31:06.800 --> 01:31:12.199 But so you don't think like I tried moving this 1542 01:31:12.279 --> 01:31:15.920 way with my brother, and it's a trying to catch 1543 01:31:15.960 --> 01:31:18.880 you a little bit, right, But like what if they 1544 01:31:18.880 --> 01:31:23.079 ask you a question at first, where they're like, can 1545 01:31:23.119 --> 01:31:28.079 God's actions go beyond their intended bounds? Something of that nature, 1546 01:31:29.000 --> 01:31:33.359 And then when you clearly they can't, right then they're 1547 01:31:33.399 --> 01:31:36.560 just going to tell you that the reading reason begetting 1548 01:31:36.720 --> 01:31:39.279 terminates where it does and doesn't can because one of 1549 01:31:39.319 --> 01:31:42.000 our charges against them, right is like, why doesn't the 1550 01:31:42.039 --> 01:31:45.199 son or the spirit also beget or spiral. 1551 01:31:47.119 --> 01:31:49.239 If that's a power of the essence. 1552 01:31:49.399 --> 01:31:54.439 And they they their answer seems to be that, like, 1553 01:31:55.760 --> 01:31:59.960 because the relative opposition is there's this movement from the thought. 1554 01:32:00.199 --> 01:32:03.119 It's almost like a line. There's a movement from the 1555 01:32:03.159 --> 01:32:08.880 father to the son, and that terminates in its proper effect. 1556 01:32:09.720 --> 01:32:14.520 And then, because spiration is not at odds with that 1557 01:32:14.760 --> 01:32:19.000 the way paternity is, it continues onwards and then terminates 1558 01:32:19.000 --> 01:32:20.159 in its proper effect. 1559 01:32:20.359 --> 01:32:22.479 Okay, what is the termination of spiration? 1560 01:32:24.239 --> 01:32:27.600 The termination of spiration is the person of the spirit 1561 01:32:27.720 --> 01:32:28.319 in their view. 1562 01:32:28.520 --> 01:32:32.000 Okay, then how do two people have the power of cause? 1563 01:32:33.920 --> 01:32:38.119 Well, the act of spiration moves through the son. And 1564 01:32:38.479 --> 01:32:41.479 I'm saying this as they would right like, not as 1565 01:32:41.520 --> 01:32:44.279 if the son were a secondary cause, but because the 1566 01:32:44.359 --> 01:32:49.439 son receives the divine essence complete, including the notional power 1567 01:32:49.520 --> 01:32:53.680 to spirrate, but he does not originate the power that 1568 01:32:53.720 --> 01:32:56.920 belongs with the Father, who's principal without principle, and he 1569 01:32:57.199 --> 01:32:59.640 exercises it together with him. 1570 01:33:00.039 --> 01:33:02.520 Okay, so is there one cause or two causes in 1571 01:33:02.520 --> 01:33:03.439 the triad? 1572 01:33:04.640 --> 01:33:07.960 Well, they want to say that because he's exercising the 1573 01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:11.760 same exact power as the Father, that there's only one. 1574 01:33:11.880 --> 01:33:13.560 That's what they want to say. I don't know if 1575 01:33:13.560 --> 01:33:15.680 that actually works logically. 1576 01:33:15.720 --> 01:33:19.479 But and again to reiterate Photius's point, does the spirit 1577 01:33:19.600 --> 01:33:20.319 have that power? 1578 01:33:22.640 --> 01:33:24.039 Does the spirit have the. 1579 01:33:25.640 --> 01:33:27.920 You said that the son has the exact same power 1580 01:33:27.960 --> 01:33:30.920 as the father. According to them, m hm, does the 1581 01:33:30.960 --> 01:33:32.479 spirit have that exact same power? 1582 01:33:33.439 --> 01:33:33.800 Yeah? 1583 01:33:33.920 --> 01:33:34.479 Okay. 1584 01:33:34.239 --> 01:33:37.720 Is it because the ones that are kind of cleaved 1585 01:33:37.760 --> 01:33:40.960 off by what in their mind is a logical necessity 1586 01:33:41.079 --> 01:33:46.960 between two diet between a diet, Right, there's an opposition there. 1587 01:33:47.880 --> 01:33:50.399 I don't understand what that means. Again, if the Father 1588 01:33:50.560 --> 01:33:53.560 has the power to produce a person, and that's what 1589 01:33:53.600 --> 01:33:57.520 it means to be the principal cause, and the son 1590 01:33:57.600 --> 01:34:01.760 also has that power, who is the spirit also then 1591 01:34:01.800 --> 01:34:02.399 a cause. 1592 01:34:02.159 --> 01:34:05.960 Of I don't think they believe he's a cause. 1593 01:34:07.199 --> 01:34:09.479 Yes, they do. The council lions in Florence say that 1594 01:34:09.520 --> 01:34:12.319 the Father and the Son together are a single principle. 1595 01:34:12.359 --> 01:34:13.319 Oh, I don't. 1596 01:34:13.159 --> 01:34:15.920 Believe they think the spirit is a cause of a 1597 01:34:15.960 --> 01:34:16.680 divine person. 1598 01:34:16.880 --> 01:34:19.279 I know that they don't. That's what I'm asking is 1599 01:34:19.479 --> 01:34:23.000 if the power of the Father is to cause the son, 1600 01:34:23.079 --> 01:34:25.239 and that's what it means to be a cause, and 1601 01:34:25.279 --> 01:34:28.560 the son has the same power, then why does the 1602 01:34:28.600 --> 01:34:29.439 spirit lack that? 1603 01:34:31.000 --> 01:34:34.800 Well, the spirit lacks that because there's two notional powers 1604 01:34:34.880 --> 01:34:40.880 in their logical scheme, and essentially because God's actions terminate 1605 01:34:42.439 --> 01:34:47.079 in their proper effects and are properly actualized from eternity. 1606 01:34:47.159 --> 01:34:52.159 They think that essentially there's like this logical movement within 1607 01:34:52.199 --> 01:34:54.239 the Trinity, and in. 1608 01:34:54.119 --> 01:34:58.920 Each step you lose portions. Right, you begin with paternity. 1609 01:34:58.439 --> 01:35:00.560 I mean that right, there's to tell you that like 1610 01:35:00.640 --> 01:35:04.279 this is nonsense. You lose portions of this power as 1611 01:35:04.279 --> 01:35:05.920 you move to the Trinity. That's insane. 1612 01:35:05.960 --> 01:35:10.640 Like well, that, well, like relative opposition bars those from 1613 01:35:10.840 --> 01:35:13.560 continuing onward in their logical. 1614 01:35:13.119 --> 01:35:16.279 Movement, right, Like, I mean, how does that even follow? 1615 01:35:16.760 --> 01:35:19.359 Relative opposition is just a way to try to distinguish 1616 01:35:19.439 --> 01:35:22.680 something from being not the other two? How does it 1617 01:35:22.760 --> 01:35:26.000 follow from that? That there's this diminishing power of causing 1618 01:35:26.039 --> 01:35:27.319 as it moves through the trinity. 1619 01:35:27.359 --> 01:35:29.760 It's just just well, like it's not possible for my 1620 01:35:29.960 --> 01:35:33.199 son to be me, right, Like I beget my son, 1621 01:35:33.359 --> 01:35:35.600 but it's not possible for him to be. 1622 01:35:35.720 --> 01:35:37.119 Me the begetter. Right. 1623 01:35:37.159 --> 01:35:39.079 But the question is not does he produce you? The 1624 01:35:39.159 --> 01:35:44.560 question is does he have the power to produce? By 1625 01:35:44.600 --> 01:35:47.399 the way, is a person a notional power or a subject? 1626 01:35:47.840 --> 01:35:50.199 This is just insane, Like all this shit is just 1627 01:35:50.239 --> 01:35:53.960 like gibberish, total gibberish nonsense. I don't even know why 1628 01:35:54.039 --> 01:35:55.279 anyone would find this convincing. 1629 01:35:55.439 --> 01:35:58.680 I do think it's odd to metaphysically reduce a person 1630 01:35:58.840 --> 01:36:01.560 to a relate shit rather than having it. 1631 01:36:01.560 --> 01:36:03.600 It's not just odd, it's like it makes no sense 1632 01:36:03.720 --> 01:36:07.039 the word the word person is a subject, a relation 1633 01:36:07.199 --> 01:36:09.319 is a predicate. So grammar should tell you that that 1634 01:36:09.359 --> 01:36:14.720 doesn't make any sense. I'm serious, Go read I appreciate 1635 01:36:14.760 --> 01:36:17.359 your questions, but if you read Losky, he just says 1636 01:36:17.399 --> 01:36:20.319 it's not it's not even grammatically correct. What's up? 1637 01:36:20.359 --> 01:36:28.600 John Greeky slotsp pull up Charard Nobody, that's what your 1638 01:36:29.520 --> 01:36:32.600 The callers should recommend the person he's. 1639 01:36:32.399 --> 01:36:34.880 Talking to No. 1640 01:36:35.039 --> 01:36:37.159 Actually, I mean I don't disagree that that's a good 1641 01:36:37.159 --> 01:36:39.199 one for like energies. But let me let me pull 1642 01:36:39.279 --> 01:36:41.600 up the actual Losky book that addresses this specifically. I 1643 01:36:41.600 --> 01:36:42.199 have it over here. 1644 01:36:43.039 --> 01:36:49.520 Well, the part where he's talking about Platinus, particularly being 1645 01:36:50.000 --> 01:36:55.199 Platinus and Aquinas, Yeah, talks about that. 1646 01:36:55.960 --> 01:37:01.039 Yeah, that's true, so most lost but to actually kind 1647 01:37:01.079 --> 01:37:03.560 of talk about some of the same stuff. But I 1648 01:37:03.600 --> 01:37:08.199 think Vision of God is the one that I'm thinking of, Yeah, 1649 01:37:08.279 --> 01:37:10.880 where he goes into quite a bit of depth about 1650 01:37:10.920 --> 01:37:13.880 what we were just talking about. But if you want 1651 01:37:13.960 --> 01:37:19.520 specifically the critique of the relations of opposition, I'll link 1652 01:37:19.600 --> 01:37:26.880 this paper again. What's on your mind? John? By the way, well, 1653 01:37:27.359 --> 01:37:29.479 look all of this, I don't mean to cut you off, 1654 01:37:29.479 --> 01:37:32.319 but like people need to understand that none of this 1655 01:37:32.439 --> 01:37:35.600 is in the Cappadocians. Okay, the Cappo Doceans teach not 1656 01:37:35.720 --> 01:37:40.039 the august aniantomistic model. They teach relations of origin. And 1657 01:37:40.119 --> 01:37:43.520 it's exactly what Photius repeats in the Mystagogy. If you 1658 01:37:43.560 --> 01:37:46.000 read the Cappa Doceans in depth as I have, and 1659 01:37:46.079 --> 01:37:49.359 if you then read the Mystagogy, you realize that he's 1660 01:37:49.399 --> 01:37:52.319 really just repeating the Cappadocians. So the Orthodox Church is 1661 01:37:52.560 --> 01:37:55.399 consistently teaching what the constant and noble one, the Second 1662 01:37:55.439 --> 01:38:00.119 Ecumenical Council teaches officially about Trinitarian theology. It's the Romans 1663 01:38:00.319 --> 01:38:04.840 that has departed with all this weird philosophical scholastic speculations 1664 01:38:04.880 --> 01:38:07.239 that are not in the Cavedoceans, not anywhere in the 1665 01:38:07.279 --> 01:38:10.640 Eastern Fathers. But they'll quote mine for a similar term, 1666 01:38:10.760 --> 01:38:14.760 right where like if gregor Nissa says that they are 1667 01:38:15.560 --> 01:38:18.039 the persons are related to one another, yeah, they I 1668 01:38:18.079 --> 01:38:21.960 don't didn't disagree with relations. Really, it's not distinguishing persons 1669 01:38:22.000 --> 01:38:26.439 through relations of opposition. It's relations of origin to their 1670 01:38:26.640 --> 01:38:30.239 unique singular cause the person of the father. Every capped 1671 01:38:30.279 --> 01:38:35.439 Doocian says that the everything the father has, the son 1672 01:38:35.600 --> 01:38:39.159 has accept causality. That's their dictum. That alone tells you 1673 01:38:39.239 --> 01:38:42.520 they don't teach pillioqui. This is not that hard. I 1674 01:38:42.520 --> 01:38:44.279 know it sounds confusing if you don't know this stuff, 1675 01:38:44.279 --> 01:38:46.800 you're new to all this stuff. But it's like what 1676 01:38:46.880 --> 01:38:51.600 they say is clear, all this speculations about philosophical relations 1677 01:38:51.600 --> 01:38:54.319 of opposition. It's the Roman Catholics that are deluded in 1678 01:38:54.359 --> 01:38:56.479 confusing people with their garbage theology. 1679 01:38:56.479 --> 01:39:02.479 What's up many, Yeah, but the the Cappadocians and the 1680 01:39:02.520 --> 01:39:07.359 early church fathers say the word pope. Say what they 1681 01:39:07.399 --> 01:39:08.000 say pope? 1682 01:39:09.720 --> 01:39:12.439 Well, they say Alexandria to so what I know. 1683 01:39:12.520 --> 01:39:13.760 They used the word pope. 1684 01:39:13.800 --> 01:39:17.520 That Oh, that right, that's it. 1685 01:39:17.680 --> 01:39:21.479 They used the word pope in the early Church. I 1686 01:39:21.880 --> 01:39:27.760 don't even know why anybody's arguing anything. They said the 1687 01:39:27.760 --> 01:39:32.359 word pope. Speaking of popes. Once again, this is also 1688 01:39:32.399 --> 01:39:35.920 a good time to go back to my favorite quote 1689 01:39:36.560 --> 01:39:44.039 from Pope Benedict the sixteenth. These churches have an authentic doctrine, 1690 01:39:44.039 --> 01:39:46.840 but it is static, petrified as it were, the remain 1691 01:39:47.600 --> 01:39:51.840 that remained faithful to the of the first Christian millennium. 1692 01:39:52.680 --> 01:39:55.520 But they reject the later developments on the ground that 1693 01:39:55.560 --> 01:39:57.319 the Catholics decided upon. 1694 01:39:57.159 --> 01:39:59.000 These developments without them. 1695 01:40:00.159 --> 01:40:03.199 For them, questions of faith can only be decided by 1696 01:40:03.199 --> 01:40:09.560 an ecumenical council, one which includes all Christians. Therefore, they 1697 01:40:09.560 --> 01:40:13.800 regard as invalid what Catholics have declared since the split. 1698 01:40:15.279 --> 01:40:18.520 And is that introduction of Christ and theology of Ratzinger or. 1699 01:40:18.439 --> 01:40:21.560 His other book that's the Ratzinger Report. 1700 01:40:21.720 --> 01:40:24.600 Rising report. Yeah, he's got two or three versions of 1701 01:40:24.680 --> 01:40:25.359 the same statement. 1702 01:40:26.199 --> 01:40:28.760 And then he says, but they cling to the idea 1703 01:40:28.960 --> 01:40:34.000 of autocephaly, according to which the churches, even if the 1704 01:40:34.239 --> 01:40:38.000 United and Faith, are also independent from one another, and 1705 01:40:38.039 --> 01:40:44.199 they cannot accept the Bishop of Rome. And once again 1706 01:40:44.239 --> 01:40:48.119 making the point is that when he's writing this in 1707 01:40:48.199 --> 01:40:52.760 nineteen eighty five, he's writing it from the perspective of, hey, 1708 01:40:53.039 --> 01:40:58.159 where the modernists and these old fuddy dudy Orthodox are. 1709 01:40:58.039 --> 01:41:02.399 Still stuck in the the first thousand years. That's all 1710 01:41:02.439 --> 01:41:03.199 old stuff. 1711 01:41:03.760 --> 01:41:05.960 He's not thinking ahead to where there might be a 1712 01:41:06.000 --> 01:41:09.920 time where people start to question development of doctrine as 1713 01:41:10.000 --> 01:41:14.439 being something maybe bad. So he's writing it from the 1714 01:41:14.479 --> 01:41:18.119 perspective of like, hey, I just owned you Orthodox with 1715 01:41:18.199 --> 01:41:23.000 this statement right here, you see. Yeah, And so now 1716 01:41:23.119 --> 01:41:27.479 that's turned around to bite everybody in the butt, that 1717 01:41:27.560 --> 01:41:32.079 statement alone, because that's a pope who's post Vatican two 1718 01:41:32.399 --> 01:41:35.000 saying that the Autolas Church is. 1719 01:41:35.000 --> 01:41:37.439 The church of the first thousand years. 1720 01:41:40.199 --> 01:41:42.720 Yeah, I don't. I mean, I think even the other 1721 01:41:43.359 --> 01:41:48.039 you know, knowledgeable Roman Catholics will admit that. But again 1722 01:41:48.079 --> 01:41:51.600 the problem is that the normy pop apologists don't know 1723 01:41:51.640 --> 01:41:53.800 any of this stuff. They're not aware of it, and 1724 01:41:53.840 --> 01:41:55.920 they just want to gloss over it and be like, look, 1725 01:41:56.680 --> 01:41:59.159 this is just a simple position. Just accept it. Okay, Well, 1726 01:41:59.159 --> 01:42:03.720 then my position is a simple position. If we're just 1727 01:42:03.800 --> 01:42:07.640 gonna pull out simplicity, then the cabin dotionan model of 1728 01:42:07.680 --> 01:42:12.520 the triad, is simple. It's simpler than the tomistic gibberish. 1729 01:42:12.560 --> 01:42:20.800 So there we go. It's true, Cory, what's up? And I 1730 01:42:20.800 --> 01:42:22.720 don't know you've been waiting to come chat. What's on 1731 01:42:22.760 --> 01:42:23.159 your mind? 1732 01:42:25.039 --> 01:42:25.239 Oh? 1733 01:42:25.279 --> 01:42:28.479 By the way, I want to give this to the 1734 01:42:28.520 --> 01:42:34.479 guy that called in our buddy soul there just one second, 1735 01:42:34.560 --> 01:42:41.560 because this is the specific critique of what he was 1736 01:42:41.600 --> 01:42:44.279 calling in about. Go ahead, what's on your mind? 1737 01:42:45.640 --> 01:42:46.000 What's up? 1738 01:42:46.079 --> 01:42:46.640 Dog? 1739 01:42:46.960 --> 01:42:47.760 What's on your mind? 1740 01:42:48.279 --> 01:42:48.520 Hey? 1741 01:42:48.560 --> 01:42:50.960 So I had a tweet that kind of took off 1742 01:42:51.000 --> 01:42:54.079 that actually got your attention the other day basically where 1743 01:42:54.079 --> 01:42:57.319 I had said the reason that I remain Protestant is 1744 01:42:57.399 --> 01:43:00.680 church history and why I don't become Catholic. And we 1745 01:43:00.760 --> 01:43:02.760 had this back and forth where I told you I 1746 01:43:02.800 --> 01:43:05.359 actually agree with a lot of Orthodox things, but there's 1747 01:43:05.359 --> 01:43:08.239 some stuff that prevents me from actually becoming Orthodox, and 1748 01:43:08.319 --> 01:43:10.279 you asked, well, what is it? So I came on 1749 01:43:10.319 --> 01:43:12.039 here just to bring those things up and see if 1750 01:43:12.079 --> 01:43:13.800 you helped me out a little bit, because I'd love 1751 01:43:13.840 --> 01:43:15.720 to be convinced quick back. 1752 01:43:15.800 --> 01:43:17.439 So I'm a Presbyterian pastor. 1753 01:43:18.880 --> 01:43:22.520 I was an inquirer in twenty twenty during COVID it 1754 01:43:22.520 --> 01:43:23.560 was an OCA church. 1755 01:43:23.880 --> 01:43:25.880 I ended up not joining for a couple of reasons. 1756 01:43:25.880 --> 01:43:29.479 But actually some of those reasons that I had back 1757 01:43:29.520 --> 01:43:32.439 then I actually agree with now. But I'm just still 1758 01:43:32.439 --> 01:43:34.720 not all the way there, and I'm getting to the 1759 01:43:34.720 --> 01:43:37.840 point where I'm gonna have to start teaching Orthodox things 1760 01:43:37.880 --> 01:43:41.600 to Presbyterians from the pulpit because I believe them so much, 1761 01:43:41.640 --> 01:43:43.720 but there's still some things that hold me back. So 1762 01:43:44.680 --> 01:43:46.840 I'm gonna lay out my biggest thing, and I want 1763 01:43:46.840 --> 01:43:47.800 you to take over from there. 1764 01:43:47.800 --> 01:43:48.479 If that's okay. 1765 01:43:49.199 --> 01:43:51.600 Sure, what's the first one? 1766 01:43:52.079 --> 01:43:52.439 Okay? 1767 01:43:52.479 --> 01:43:56.119 So my big thing that I studied during my Master's 1768 01:43:56.159 --> 01:43:58.800 of Divinity, and pretty much every single graduate paper I 1769 01:43:58.840 --> 01:44:01.840 wrote on had to interlink Hebrews eight and nine with 1770 01:44:01.880 --> 01:44:06.520 Leviticus sixteen. Basically, how Jesus fulfills the great high priesthood 1771 01:44:06.520 --> 01:44:09.720 and his atonement is the perfect atonement as compared to 1772 01:44:09.920 --> 01:44:12.439 the atonement sacrifice and everything from Leviticus sixteen. 1773 01:44:12.600 --> 01:44:14.479 Okay, so that's kind of where I'm coming from. 1774 01:44:14.840 --> 01:44:20.600 And I came to the conclusion in reading Leviticus sixteen 1775 01:44:21.199 --> 01:44:24.840 that it seems like the Roman Catholic and not as much, 1776 01:44:24.880 --> 01:44:28.600 but still the Orthodox Church have a conflation of terms 1777 01:44:28.920 --> 01:44:33.920 when it comes to sacrifice and atonement to where I 1778 01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:37.760 just believe it's been bad ex to Jesus and Counsel 1779 01:44:37.800 --> 01:44:41.159 of Trent has dogmatized and made it anathema that you 1780 01:44:41.279 --> 01:44:44.399 have to believe that the masses are sacrificed. In particular, 1781 01:44:44.439 --> 01:44:46.359 they use these words that I can't get along with. 1782 01:44:46.600 --> 01:44:48.560 They call it the altar of the cross. Are you 1783 01:44:48.600 --> 01:44:52.039 aware of this? The altar of the cross? Okay? So 1784 01:44:52.640 --> 01:44:55.479 the thing is is alters in the. 1785 01:44:55.439 --> 01:44:57.920 Old Testament and in the New Testament are not where 1786 01:44:57.960 --> 01:45:01.439 atonement is made. So if in Mass you're going in 1787 01:45:01.520 --> 01:45:07.760 this transcendental, timeless place and you're revisiting the sacrifice, okay, cool. 1788 01:45:07.840 --> 01:45:09.359 You're not getting any effects from. 1789 01:45:09.199 --> 01:45:12.079 The sacrifice because the sacrifice has nothing to it. It's 1790 01:45:12.199 --> 01:45:16.640 just one step in the process of atonement. In Leviticus sixteen, 1791 01:45:17.399 --> 01:45:19.119 if you want to look at the Orthodox, sell you 1792 01:45:19.119 --> 01:45:21.680 Bible if you want to look at the NKJV. There's 1793 01:45:21.720 --> 01:45:24.000 a step by step process that the Great High Priests 1794 01:45:24.000 --> 01:45:26.920 has to go through. The Atonement is not done until 1795 01:45:26.960 --> 01:45:28.319 every step is finished. 1796 01:45:28.359 --> 01:45:30.920 Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm not sure why you 1797 01:45:30.960 --> 01:45:34.600 think that we have to agree to Trent's definition. Why 1798 01:45:34.600 --> 01:45:38.000 are you asking me about Trent? 1799 01:45:38.159 --> 01:45:41.319 Well, because because we're going to get to the liturgy 1800 01:45:41.359 --> 01:45:44.640 of the Orthodox Church, where I believe how you treat 1801 01:45:44.760 --> 01:45:46.920 the Eucharist and where all of this kind. 1802 01:45:46.760 --> 01:45:48.319 Of falls apart. But this has to lead up to 1803 01:45:48.319 --> 01:45:49.199 it or it's not going to work. 1804 01:45:49.279 --> 01:45:51.039 Okay, Okay, So. 1805 01:45:52.640 --> 01:45:55.079 First steps are the priests has to wash himself, you 1806 01:45:55.079 --> 01:45:56.199 have to put on new garments. 1807 01:45:56.399 --> 01:45:56.800 Okay. 1808 01:45:57.239 --> 01:46:00.199 Step number two they kill the animal out. 1809 01:46:00.159 --> 01:46:01.880 Side of the tent. This is important. 1810 01:46:01.880 --> 01:46:04.359 So animal is killed and the blood is shed outside 1811 01:46:04.359 --> 01:46:07.359 of the tent. Step three, they're going to take that 1812 01:46:07.479 --> 01:46:10.760 animal once it's killed, and they're going to carry it 1813 01:46:10.800 --> 01:46:13.840 to an altar, still outside of the Holy of Holy 1814 01:46:13.960 --> 01:46:15.920 so it's closer inside of the tabernation. 1815 01:46:16.720 --> 01:46:16.840 Bro. 1816 01:46:17.039 --> 01:46:18.560 I mean, I'm not trying to be rude, but like 1817 01:46:18.600 --> 01:46:22.279 I'm aware of the process of how the Jewish liturgy happens. 1818 01:46:22.319 --> 01:46:24.600 But what's what's the point of this. 1819 01:46:24.560 --> 01:46:28.880 Okay, atonement is not done until blood is sprinkled on 1820 01:46:29.119 --> 01:46:32.960 the hillosterion on the mercy scene. Okay, so Jesus's atonement 1821 01:46:33.079 --> 01:46:36.199 is not finished on the cross. Jesus has just done 1822 01:46:36.239 --> 01:46:39.079 his sacrifice on the cross. The atonement from what I'm 1823 01:46:39.119 --> 01:46:41.039 getting in my reading and my extra. 1824 01:46:40.880 --> 01:46:43.880 Jesus, Yeah, yes, he has to ascend into heaven, right. 1825 01:46:43.840 --> 01:46:45.479 Exactly correct, Yeah, I believe that. 1826 01:46:45.640 --> 01:46:46.199 So what's wrong? 1827 01:46:46.439 --> 01:46:50.079 Oh you do believe that? Okay, this is great, this 1828 01:46:50.159 --> 01:46:51.600 is awesome, this is going to help me out. Then, 1829 01:46:51.960 --> 01:46:54.680 So it seems to me that the Roman Catholic Church 1830 01:46:55.000 --> 01:46:58.039 skips this step. And they're saying that it's the cross, 1831 01:46:58.079 --> 01:47:01.439 where it's the altar, it's the hill, it's everything that 1832 01:47:01.520 --> 01:47:05.560 all happens at the cross, even you know, the penal 1833 01:47:05.600 --> 01:47:09.760 substitutionary atonement for the Protestant, it all happens on the cross. 1834 01:47:09.800 --> 01:47:11.399 The atonement happens on the cross. But I don't think 1835 01:47:11.439 --> 01:47:13.399 that's the case that happens in the ascension. So you're 1836 01:47:13.399 --> 01:47:14.920 saying the Eastern Orthodox. 1837 01:47:14.520 --> 01:47:17.920 Teach this, Well again I don't. I mean, it's not 1838 01:47:17.960 --> 01:47:20.000 an either or, it's like all of those things are 1839 01:47:20.079 --> 01:47:25.840 necessary aspects of Christ making atonement or reconciling us to God. 1840 01:47:25.960 --> 01:47:29.319 So you can't pick out one part of it and 1841 01:47:29.359 --> 01:47:31.520 say that that's the totality of it. But there's nothing 1842 01:47:31.560 --> 01:47:36.640 wrong with using terms to speak about one part that 1843 01:47:36.760 --> 01:47:39.119 encompassed the whole. That's just kind of the way language works. 1844 01:47:39.119 --> 01:47:43.079 Like you can say, you know, Christ made atonement, even 1845 01:47:43.119 --> 01:47:45.479 if you're only speaking about one aspect of it, we 1846 01:47:45.479 --> 01:47:48.159 wouldn't conclude that because one aspect of it is just 1847 01:47:48.199 --> 01:47:51.439 one aspect of it, you can't make the general term 1848 01:47:51.520 --> 01:47:53.640 about that one aspect. Does that make sense? 1849 01:47:54.279 --> 01:47:56.800 I get that. So your thing you can refer to. 1850 01:47:56.640 --> 01:47:59.720 The cross as the thing that atones even though in 1851 01:47:59.840 --> 01:48:02.399 real reality it was just a step in the process. 1852 01:48:02.560 --> 01:48:05.039 Yeah, okay, cool, I get that. I mean I can 1853 01:48:05.119 --> 01:48:05.640 drive with that. 1854 01:48:05.640 --> 01:48:07.399 As long as that's I mean, just like, I'm trying 1855 01:48:07.399 --> 01:48:17.479 to think of other examples where you might speak this way, like, uh, 1856 01:48:17.960 --> 01:48:20.600 the arc of the Covenant, right, Like, is the arc 1857 01:48:20.640 --> 01:48:23.760 of the Covenant Jesus's human body or is it Mary 1858 01:48:23.880 --> 01:48:28.159 or is it us walking around as individual people? All three? 1859 01:48:28.279 --> 01:48:31.680 So if I call Mary the arc, that doesn't exclude 1860 01:48:32.239 --> 01:48:35.000 the other senses of it. I'm got you. That's just 1861 01:48:35.039 --> 01:48:37.079 the first thing that pops in my head as an example. 1862 01:48:37.359 --> 01:48:39.439 Okay, So now so what you're gonna say then, is 1863 01:48:39.479 --> 01:48:43.199 if you know, in the liturgy, if you call it 1864 01:48:43.239 --> 01:48:47.520 an altar of sacrifice, it's it's it's technically okay, because 1865 01:48:47.560 --> 01:48:50.399 when you're referencing this thing, you're you're talking about the 1866 01:48:50.479 --> 01:48:55.279 totality from beginning to end, not just yeah, okay, Well 1867 01:48:55.319 --> 01:48:56.800 that kind of changes everything there. 1868 01:48:59.039 --> 01:49:02.960 I mean, I'm not I've not heard this objection, so yeah, 1869 01:49:03.119 --> 01:49:05.880 but that's just my initial yeah response. 1870 01:49:06.039 --> 01:49:08.880 It's something that came up to me, you know, in 1871 01:49:08.880 --> 01:49:11.760 my graduate work that I hadn't heard either. And you know, 1872 01:49:11.800 --> 01:49:13.960 so I think I'm just some retard who's thinking of something, 1873 01:49:14.000 --> 01:49:16.479 you know. But you know, when I look things up, 1874 01:49:16.520 --> 01:49:18.600 there's only been one other guy who's written stuff on it, 1875 01:49:18.640 --> 01:49:20.720 so it's like I'm probably the one that's wrong. But 1876 01:49:21.119 --> 01:49:23.239 when I'm looking these things up, it's, well, I can't 1877 01:49:23.239 --> 01:49:23.840 get around it. 1878 01:49:23.960 --> 01:49:26.199 One thing I would say about a lot of Protestant 1879 01:49:26.279 --> 01:49:29.000 objections is that most of the time they hinge on 1880 01:49:29.760 --> 01:49:33.520 false dialectics or either ors. So it's sort of like, oh, well, 1881 01:49:33.600 --> 01:49:35.920 do you believe in grace because it sounds like you 1882 01:49:35.920 --> 01:49:39.439 believe in works. Do you believe in you know, Bible, 1883 01:49:39.520 --> 01:49:41.199 or do you believe in tradition? Sounds like you believe 1884 01:49:41.239 --> 01:49:43.279 in tradition. Like it's sort of like a lot of 1885 01:49:43.319 --> 01:49:47.560 either ores and they're usually false constructed either ors that 1886 01:49:48.039 --> 01:49:51.199 you know are based around misunderstandings of language or work 1887 01:49:51.239 --> 01:49:52.079 cause of policies. 1888 01:49:53.800 --> 01:49:56.600 Okay, I can track with that. So there's gonna be 1889 01:49:56.640 --> 01:49:57.239 one more thing. 1890 01:49:57.399 --> 01:50:02.640 So I agree with the orthodox view of ancestral sin. 1891 01:50:02.720 --> 01:50:04.119 I do not believe in original sin. 1892 01:50:04.159 --> 01:50:06.479 And I even had a pastor preach a sermon series 1893 01:50:06.520 --> 01:50:08.039 against Ballagianism because of me. 1894 01:50:09.159 --> 01:50:10.439 So like, well, you're not gonna be able to be 1895 01:50:10.439 --> 01:50:11.680 a Presbyterian very long with. 1896 01:50:11.640 --> 01:50:12.880 That, That's what I'm saying. 1897 01:50:12.920 --> 01:50:13.079 Bro. 1898 01:50:13.239 --> 01:50:14.199 So like I'm getting there. 1899 01:50:14.239 --> 01:50:17.920 But anyway, so, what's up with the intinction in the liturgy? 1900 01:50:18.039 --> 01:50:20.199 And and why do we choose it to go that way? Then? 1901 01:50:20.479 --> 01:50:21.840 Then take eat, take drink? 1902 01:50:24.199 --> 01:50:25.720 I don't understand what what. 1903 01:50:26.039 --> 01:50:30.239 So why does the so I see in scripture when 1904 01:50:30.319 --> 01:50:33.000 Jesus commands and he institutes the Lord's Supper, he says 1905 01:50:33.439 --> 01:50:34.359 take this all of. 1906 01:50:34.319 --> 01:50:36.439 You and eat, and he says drink this. So he 1907 01:50:36.479 --> 01:50:38.760 says two separate things. He wants you to eat and drink. 1908 01:50:38.600 --> 01:50:43.319 Separately in scripture, you know, I don't see a valid 1909 01:50:43.399 --> 01:50:46.279 reason for intinction to be the way that the Eucharus 1910 01:50:46.399 --> 01:50:55.039 is consumed. And then if you're looking at anything up 1911 01:50:55.079 --> 01:50:55.800 right now, I just want to. 1912 01:50:55.800 --> 01:50:58.560 Say, like, no, I'm just again, it's not an I've 1913 01:50:58.600 --> 01:51:00.960 not heard this objection. I mean, I I think that 1914 01:51:01.000 --> 01:51:05.199 there's a lot of things about what's happening in the 1915 01:51:05.279 --> 01:51:09.199 upper room, right, because that's a it's still a passover meal, right, 1916 01:51:09.760 --> 01:51:11.880 So what's happening in the upper room is a transition 1917 01:51:12.000 --> 01:51:15.520 from the passover meal to what Jesus is instituting. So 1918 01:51:15.520 --> 01:51:18.680 there's aspects of that meal that are not necessarily going 1919 01:51:18.760 --> 01:51:22.840 to carry over into the tradition of the church. I mean, 1920 01:51:22.840 --> 01:51:25.760 that would be my first inclination. It's like, it's not 1921 01:51:25.840 --> 01:51:27.800 the case that everything that happens in the Gospels or 1922 01:51:27.800 --> 01:51:31.279 even the Book of Acts is necessarily perpetually, eternally the 1923 01:51:31.319 --> 01:51:34.920 case for the history of the Church. That's why Jesus 1924 01:51:34.960 --> 01:51:42.279 didn't establish a specific ritual for the apostles. He let 1925 01:51:42.279 --> 01:51:46.680 the apostles craft a liturgical tradition for the apostolic seeds 1926 01:51:46.680 --> 01:51:50.880 that they set up. So there's probably some something that 1927 01:51:50.960 --> 01:51:54.119 happened within church history like that caused the church to 1928 01:51:54.199 --> 01:51:58.439 do this that I'm not aware of. Yeah, and you 1929 01:51:58.439 --> 01:52:00.560 you'd ask the liturgical historian that I don't know. 1930 01:52:00.840 --> 01:52:03.479 I'm seeing a similar problem, you know, just speaking out 1931 01:52:03.479 --> 01:52:07.159 loud with myself as where I'm being hyper autistic about 1932 01:52:07.359 --> 01:52:09.640 the steps given in scripture. And I get it my 1933 01:52:09.640 --> 01:52:13.239 Protestant background, but it's like, if it's not detailed in 1934 01:52:13.319 --> 01:52:15.680 this order in this way, it can't be r Yeah, 1935 01:52:15.680 --> 01:52:17.199 but but there's something I'm rewired. 1936 01:52:17.279 --> 01:52:20.279 Yeah, there's there's not in the New Testament a written 1937 01:52:20.359 --> 01:52:23.840 instruction of a liturgy. And you know, I keep making 1938 01:52:23.880 --> 01:52:27.119 this argument that that's on purpose because Jesus wants us 1939 01:52:27.159 --> 01:52:31.640 to trust the Apostolic tradition, and that's precisely why he 1940 01:52:31.720 --> 01:52:35.119 didn't put a divine liturgy within the Bible, Like you know, 1941 01:52:35.279 --> 01:52:37.800 in divine providence, Jesus could have ordered it to where 1942 01:52:38.239 --> 01:52:42.680 you know, Paul has an extra epistle that is the 1943 01:52:42.720 --> 01:52:45.640 worship service, and then everybody would have had easy answers 1944 01:52:45.680 --> 01:52:49.960 to you know, to their worship service procedure questions, right, 1945 01:52:50.039 --> 01:52:55.159 but there isn't one why. Well, there's some necessary reliance 1946 01:52:55.239 --> 01:52:57.880 on tradition, and that's just one example. It's not the 1947 01:52:57.880 --> 01:52:59.720 only example. I mean, the cannon itself is another one 1948 01:52:59.760 --> 01:53:02.520 of those examples. But if there's not a liturgical pattern 1949 01:53:02.520 --> 01:53:06.840 of worship, explicitly a worship service in the Bible, the 1950 01:53:06.880 --> 01:53:08.520 only other thing we could go to is traditions. 1951 01:53:08.600 --> 01:53:11.960 So yeah, yeah, it was funny to me because, you know, 1952 01:53:12.159 --> 01:53:13.560 one of the main arguments I would make, and I 1953 01:53:13.560 --> 01:53:15.279 also have taken up time because I wait, it's a 1954 01:53:15.319 --> 01:53:15.640 long time. 1955 01:53:15.840 --> 01:53:17.239 I'm sure other people are too. 1956 01:53:17.119 --> 01:53:19.439 But let me let me one last point is just 1957 01:53:19.479 --> 01:53:28.800 that I don't think any uh, any church explicitly does 1958 01:53:29.039 --> 01:53:34.640 every single ritual or operation identical to the New Testament. 1959 01:53:35.199 --> 01:53:37.640 I know a lot of groups like Messiana, Jews or 1960 01:53:37.640 --> 01:53:39.319 people like a lot of people want to try to 1961 01:53:39.359 --> 01:53:43.079 do that, or you know, restorationist reformist movements, but I 1962 01:53:43.079 --> 01:53:46.079 don't think anybody actually does it because there's so many 1963 01:53:46.079 --> 01:53:48.520 things in the written text itself that we don't know, 1964 01:53:49.279 --> 01:53:53.079 and there's aspects that were occurring at the time of 1965 01:53:53.119 --> 01:53:55.319 the Upper Room and then into the Book of Acts 1966 01:53:55.960 --> 01:53:58.840 that were in that transition period which are literally kind 1967 01:53:58.840 --> 01:54:01.840 of impossible. In the Book of Acts, are still going 1968 01:54:01.880 --> 01:54:05.319 to the temple to pray, right, Yeah, and like, we 1969 01:54:05.359 --> 01:54:07.640 can't do that, there's no temple, so should we build 1970 01:54:07.640 --> 01:54:10.079 temples because the Book of Acts has the time. That's 1971 01:54:10.119 --> 01:54:12.079 like the logic of like evangel I'm not saying you 1972 01:54:12.079 --> 01:54:14.119 have this few, but like Evangelical pre millennials have this 1973 01:54:14.199 --> 01:54:15.880 logic of like, well, we got to do everything that 1974 01:54:16.159 --> 01:54:18.399 is happening in the Book of Acts, and there's a temple, 1975 01:54:18.439 --> 01:54:20.439 and Paul and the believers are still praying in the temple, 1976 01:54:20.560 --> 01:54:22.159 so the jew we should support the Jews to have 1977 01:54:22.199 --> 01:54:25.279 a third temple. I mean, that's ridiculous reasoning because you're 1978 01:54:25.319 --> 01:54:29.520 not understanding that the closing of that whole redemptive historical 1979 01:54:29.520 --> 01:54:32.319 period is the destruction of the Temple seventy eight is 1980 01:54:32.359 --> 01:54:34.560 a big part of this, right, So when the Temple's removed, 1981 01:54:35.319 --> 01:54:37.800 there's no more need for Jewish temple. The Orthodox Church 1982 01:54:37.840 --> 01:54:41.640 is the Jewish Temple, the true spiritual Jewish Temple, right, yes. 1983 01:54:41.520 --> 01:54:44.479 Correct, Yeah, you said it exactly. It's right to call 1984 01:54:44.479 --> 01:54:45.920 me out on that too, because I am that way. 1985 01:54:45.960 --> 01:54:48.600 You know, I don't want to intink because in John 1986 01:54:48.720 --> 01:54:51.239 thirteen twenty one through twenty six, the only one who 1987 01:54:51.279 --> 01:54:53.880 intincs is Judas you know, in the King James. They 1988 01:54:53.880 --> 01:54:56.039 say the one I give the thop that's sow me 1989 01:54:56.119 --> 01:54:58.159 on in Greek. It's like a piece of bread dipped 1990 01:54:58.159 --> 01:55:00.279 in the common dish. So I'm like, cute, this is 1991 01:55:00.279 --> 01:55:00.640 the one. 1992 01:55:01.039 --> 01:55:04.079 Okay, but like okay, but again, remember we're not having 1993 01:55:04.079 --> 01:55:06.960 a passover meal, Like it's not literally like we're not 1994 01:55:07.319 --> 01:55:11.800 literally redoing Jewish Passover. We're doing the new passover, right, 1995 01:55:11.840 --> 01:55:15.960 so not every aspect of Jesus's Upper Room passover meal, 1996 01:55:16.000 --> 01:55:21.359 it's going to necessarily transition into what we do. Volpe says. 1997 01:55:21.399 --> 01:55:25.239 His argument is the Orthodox do intinction because in the 1998 01:55:25.279 --> 01:55:27.680 early Church there were false converts that were stealing the 1999 01:55:27.720 --> 01:55:33.800 Eucharist to do rituals, taint nothing, twenty dollars to shut me. 2000 01:55:33.840 --> 01:55:35.520 Never mind, that was a different, different topic. But so 2001 01:55:35.560 --> 01:55:37.920 that's one response on that. 2002 01:55:39.000 --> 01:55:41.000 Oh yeah, and that still happens today with black masses. 2003 01:55:41.000 --> 01:55:43.039 So I get it. Yeah, I appreciate. 2004 01:55:42.600 --> 01:55:44.560 You, No, I hay great questions and feel free to 2005 01:55:44.600 --> 01:55:47.880 hop on any time. I appreciate your your questions. Corey, 2006 01:55:48.279 --> 01:55:53.279 there we go, nice cool Protestant dude. All right, we 2007 01:55:53.319 --> 01:55:56.159 got a bunch of people on the line, all got 2008 01:55:56.159 --> 01:56:01.600 what's up, dude? Hej how doing what's up? 2009 01:56:02.279 --> 01:56:03.840 I just had a quick question for you. 2010 01:56:04.119 --> 01:56:07.439 So a friend of mine, a Catholic friend of mine, 2011 01:56:07.439 --> 01:56:10.079 we're discussing when I'm saying them, and. 2012 01:56:10.159 --> 01:56:12.159 Especially after the debate that you had with him. 2013 01:56:13.319 --> 01:56:17.560 So my question is with the Council of Chelcetton the 2014 01:56:17.640 --> 01:56:21.159 canons where it talks about how clerics are pretty much 2015 01:56:21.159 --> 01:56:26.279 forbidden to participate or be involved in civil matters like 2016 01:56:26.359 --> 01:56:29.600 you know, being a civil authority for example, are. 2017 01:56:29.439 --> 01:56:31.359 These councils are excuse me? 2018 01:56:31.479 --> 01:56:35.439 Are those canons, especially the ones in Carthage that address this, 2019 01:56:36.119 --> 01:56:37.319 Are they reversible? 2020 01:56:37.520 --> 01:56:40.039 Are they binding? And are they infallible? 2021 01:56:41.359 --> 01:56:47.279 I don't believe that any any church laws are necessarily infallible. 2022 01:56:47.319 --> 01:56:50.880 I think they're normative and they're binding. And it really 2023 01:56:50.960 --> 01:56:53.640 depends on what kind of a church law. So, for example, 2024 01:56:53.680 --> 01:57:00.439 you could have a church law that relates to something 2025 01:57:00.600 --> 01:57:08.680 moral like murder. Okay, even if it's not quote infallible, 2026 01:57:09.079 --> 01:57:13.520 the principle within that canon might be unchanging because the 2027 01:57:13.600 --> 01:57:18.199 penalties or the the problems with murder never change, right. 2028 01:57:18.960 --> 01:57:21.680 But you might have a canon that deals with what 2029 01:57:21.880 --> 01:57:24.960 to do in a certain region, and over time wars 2030 01:57:25.000 --> 01:57:27.920 happen in that province or that region doesn't exist anymore, 2031 01:57:28.000 --> 01:57:30.039 So how do we keep a canon that doesn't that 2032 01:57:30.279 --> 01:57:32.359 applies to a talent that doesn't exist anymore. So, in 2033 01:57:32.399 --> 01:57:35.119 other words, it's a little more nuanced than that, depending 2034 01:57:35.199 --> 01:57:37.760 upon what the canon is dealing with. I would say, 2035 01:57:37.760 --> 01:57:42.720 in the case of specifically clerics and civil duties, the 2036 01:57:42.760 --> 01:57:48.600 canon is actually based on a theological dogmatic principle that no, 2037 01:57:48.720 --> 01:57:52.119 they can't. That could never change. You could never have 2038 01:57:52.600 --> 01:57:56.439 a situation where it's appropriate and right for clerics to 2039 01:57:56.560 --> 01:58:00.640 be civil authorities and rulers. Now that has sometimes been violated, 2040 01:58:00.680 --> 01:58:02.000 and even in the East that's. 2041 01:58:01.840 --> 01:58:06.239 Happened, right right, That's that's one point that he brought up, 2042 01:58:06.279 --> 01:58:09.560 because we were talking about the pope having temporland spiritual power. 2043 01:58:10.039 --> 01:58:11.640 He also brought up and it was kind of too 2044 01:58:11.720 --> 01:58:14.560 col quay in a way, because you brought up the 2045 01:58:14.560 --> 01:58:17.000 East also having done the same thing where you had 2046 01:58:17.039 --> 01:58:23.159 bishops basically getting rid of kings or reinstating them. 2047 01:58:23.439 --> 01:58:28.039 Well, that's not that's not the same thing as having 2048 01:58:28.079 --> 01:58:32.319 temporal supremacy. The Church can excommunicate a wicked ruler. So 2049 01:58:32.359 --> 01:58:33.279 what do you I don't know what you mean by 2050 01:58:33.319 --> 01:58:36.359 getting rid of them? What we mean is like there 2051 01:58:36.479 --> 01:58:41.199 there been I think like Serbian or maybe even Russian 2052 01:58:41.239 --> 01:58:44.760 bishops at times who went out into battle. Right, That's 2053 01:58:44.800 --> 01:58:48.039 not supposed to happen because that's a civil office going 2054 01:58:48.079 --> 01:58:51.840 to war, being soldiers. It's not proper for a bishop 2055 01:58:52.119 --> 01:58:55.840 to go to war. But that's not the same thing 2056 01:58:55.880 --> 01:58:59.800 as like the church. The churches who coordinates the king 2057 01:58:59.880 --> 01:59:01.960 or the emperor. So they are the one that because 2058 01:59:01.960 --> 01:59:06.680 that's a higher authority, they invest or coordinate the king. 2059 01:59:07.520 --> 01:59:10.600 That authority comes from the higher But that doesn't mean 2060 01:59:10.640 --> 01:59:14.920 that the bishops then become world rulers, right right. 2061 01:59:14.960 --> 01:59:16.800 That was a point in a to them because I'm 2062 01:59:16.840 --> 01:59:20.319 saying them basically, it makes the pope, the church and 2063 01:59:20.359 --> 01:59:22.279 the state an autocrat exactly. 2064 01:59:22.439 --> 01:59:23.399 That's the last paragraph. 2065 01:59:23.479 --> 01:59:25.880 Yes, right, that, That's what I brought up to him. 2066 01:59:26.000 --> 01:59:28.840 And Okay, my other question is, I'll make it quick. 2067 01:59:30.279 --> 01:59:35.159 So they claim this authority, but doesn't you know, after 2068 01:59:35.279 --> 01:59:36.239 looking at doesn't the. 2069 01:59:37.960 --> 01:59:41.960 Whole issue with Cypress having and being granted auto sphally 2070 01:59:42.119 --> 01:59:45.479 just destroyed the entire argument of this pope having all 2071 01:59:45.520 --> 01:59:47.399 this authority. I mean, I think that in itself, the 2072 01:59:47.520 --> 01:59:50.640 Church of Cypress does it in and that's in four hundred. 2073 01:59:50.439 --> 01:59:52.760 AD, and it's a documenical council which they claim to 2074 01:59:52.840 --> 01:59:56.920 adhere to right. Correct. Yeah, it's it's like one of 2075 01:59:56.960 --> 01:59:58.239 the many kill shots. I agree. 2076 01:59:58.880 --> 01:59:59.880 Okay, let's a look. 2077 02:00:00.199 --> 02:00:03.760 No, there's are absolutely great questions, yeah, really solid questions. Yeah. 2078 02:00:03.760 --> 02:00:10.399 I think you know. The reason for the separation of 2079 02:00:10.720 --> 02:00:16.319 powers is precisely because of the dangers and the duties 2080 02:00:17.560 --> 02:00:22.279 involved in being a soldier or a head of state. Right, 2081 02:00:22.319 --> 02:00:26.479 And so when you get bishops and clerics as heads 2082 02:00:26.520 --> 02:00:31.159 of state, it's a nightmare. And the Church early on 2083 02:00:31.479 --> 02:00:33.520 saw that that would be a problem, and they forbade 2084 02:00:33.520 --> 02:00:37.800 it in the canons. And so just because canons are flexible, 2085 02:00:38.000 --> 02:00:40.520 we're not. We believe in the spirit of the law. 2086 02:00:40.560 --> 02:00:43.520 We're not Pharisees and Talmudus that are worshippers of the 2087 02:00:43.600 --> 02:00:46.199 letter of the law. The purpose of canon law is 2088 02:00:46.239 --> 02:00:48.720 for man's good. What does Jesus say about the Sabbath? Right? 2089 02:00:48.760 --> 02:00:50.880 The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 2090 02:00:51.199 --> 02:00:53.960 The purpose of the laws is man's good. We don't 2091 02:00:54.000 --> 02:00:57.520 worship law for the sake of law, right, And we 2092 02:00:57.600 --> 02:01:02.479 also don't dismiss Church law because were anarchists or revolutionaries. 2093 02:01:03.600 --> 02:01:08.239 So thousands of years of church law is going to 2094 02:01:08.319 --> 02:01:13.239 have to have some degree of flexibility, especially when there 2095 02:01:13.239 --> 02:01:16.279 are canons that don't make any sense anymore. Like clerics 2096 02:01:16.279 --> 02:01:20.119 can't ride a horse. Why well, because in the Middle 2097 02:01:20.119 --> 02:01:23.760 Ages that was a sign of nobility and rulership and 2098 02:01:24.319 --> 02:01:28.920 authority of the state, reinforcing the principle of the law 2099 02:01:29.000 --> 02:01:31.520 that clerics are not members of the state, they're not 2100 02:01:31.640 --> 02:01:40.039 civil rulers. It's that simple. It's not like super complex. Now, 2101 02:01:40.279 --> 02:01:43.399 there have been situations, yes, in the East and in 2102 02:01:43.439 --> 02:01:48.279 the West, where at times bishops take on temporal power, 2103 02:01:50.880 --> 02:01:54.079 and that's not ideal, it's not supposed to happen. But 2104 02:01:54.199 --> 02:01:58.600 it's not the same as the Bishop of Rome. Let's say, 2105 02:01:58.640 --> 02:02:01.119 let's take a Serbian bishop in the year twelve hundred 2106 02:02:01.119 --> 02:02:05.640 who ends up, for whatever reason, going to war against Muslims. Okay, 2107 02:02:05.760 --> 02:02:10.079 is that right? No? But did it happen? Okay? But 2108 02:02:10.199 --> 02:02:15.840 did he bind everybody to salvation for not accepting his 2109 02:02:16.640 --> 02:02:18.239 kingly power? I doubt it? 2110 02:02:19.920 --> 02:02:20.119 Do you? 2111 02:02:20.319 --> 02:02:21.920 I mean this is night and day like the pope 2112 02:02:21.960 --> 02:02:24.000 is literally saying like, if you don't accept me as 2113 02:02:24.000 --> 02:02:28.880 the queis outsider rock you're damned. Even a Serbian bishop 2114 02:02:28.880 --> 02:02:32.039 who goes out to fight. It's not gonna say everyone 2115 02:02:32.039 --> 02:02:34.159 who doesn't fights damned. I mean that's just this is 2116 02:02:34.159 --> 02:02:39.760 like insane levels obviously of like just arrogant pride. It's 2117 02:02:39.800 --> 02:02:45.239 it's obviously Antichrist too. Brian two dollars are their moral 2118 02:02:45.279 --> 02:02:48.079 contradictions in Rome Catholicism? I would say yes. I would 2119 02:02:48.079 --> 02:02:52.840 say the uh a morise letitia that Tim Gordon always 2120 02:02:52.920 --> 02:02:57.199 talks about is a moral contradiction in their system. For them, 2121 02:02:57.640 --> 02:03:03.199 I would say saying that the death penalty is against 2122 02:03:03.199 --> 02:03:09.279 the Gospel is a contradiction. Another one that's forgotten about that. 2123 02:03:10.239 --> 02:03:11.880 I used to use a lot, which I don't use 2124 02:03:11.880 --> 02:03:14.800 a whole lot anymore because it takes a little bit 2125 02:03:14.840 --> 02:03:20.159 of knowledge of Tomism. But I would argue that, for example, 2126 02:03:20.199 --> 02:03:23.439 Thomas think that mortal sins are mortal sins and they're 2127 02:03:23.520 --> 02:03:26.800 unchanging because they're based on what they call quote eternal law. 2128 02:03:27.439 --> 02:03:31.119 Eternal law is a reflection of the divine nature. So 2129 02:03:31.640 --> 02:03:34.119 for example, of Astoral Macaltholic, is it a mortal sin 2130 02:03:34.239 --> 02:03:39.359 to have polygamy? Yes? Okay, then how did David and 2131 02:03:39.720 --> 02:03:44.319 how did Saul? How did God gives David Saul's wives. 2132 02:03:45.279 --> 02:03:53.000 So God gave a giant mortal sin to David. Oh well, 2133 02:03:53.000 --> 02:03:54.680 that's a different time. Oh but wait a minute. You 2134 02:03:54.720 --> 02:03:57.239 said that mortal sins are mortal sins because they're based 2135 02:03:57.279 --> 02:04:00.760 on eternal law, which is based on the divine which 2136 02:04:00.800 --> 02:04:04.279 is unchanging. So how can something be not a mortal 2137 02:04:04.319 --> 02:04:06.600 sin throughout the Old Testament and now it's a mortal sin. 2138 02:04:07.239 --> 02:04:10.199 So there's this lack of flexibility again because they don't 2139 02:04:10.239 --> 02:04:13.840 have the scesce entergystinction, and because they identify the moral 2140 02:04:13.960 --> 02:04:16.319 law as equivalent to the eternal law, which is the 2141 02:04:16.319 --> 02:04:19.279 divine essence basically or based on it. So to me, 2142 02:04:19.359 --> 02:04:21.960 that's another way you could argue that. But that takes 2143 02:04:21.960 --> 02:04:24.319 a little too much thought process for these people, so 2144 02:04:24.920 --> 02:04:26.319 you might not want to. You might want to use 2145 02:04:26.359 --> 02:04:32.880 the easier examples with these people. Cody twenty dollars for 2146 02:04:32.880 --> 02:04:35.079 all these load tier arguments. Couldn't you play the mind game? 2147 02:04:37.479 --> 02:04:40.119 I couldn't play, Oh I felt, okay, I'm sorry, I 2148 02:04:40.159 --> 02:04:43.720 misread that. Cody says I fell for these low tier arguments. 2149 02:04:44.239 --> 02:04:46.720 I could not play this mind game anymore, and so 2150 02:04:46.880 --> 02:04:50.439 I was received into the Orthodox Church last week. Thank 2151 02:04:50.479 --> 02:04:52.760 you for your work. Hey Gret, glad to hear that, Cody. 2152 02:04:52.880 --> 02:04:55.680 I appreciate that. I think a lot of us have 2153 02:04:55.720 --> 02:04:58.000 been in the same situation too, where we thought the 2154 02:04:58.079 --> 02:05:01.840 initial you know, arguments for we're really strong. We got 2155 02:05:01.840 --> 02:05:04.760 into it, we spent time in it. We saw serious problems, 2156 02:05:05.560 --> 02:05:08.479 and I agree with Brian Holdsworth that it's not just 2157 02:05:08.560 --> 02:05:13.159 any old problem. It's got to be systemic level, contradictory problems. 2158 02:05:13.159 --> 02:05:16.800 I agree with them on that point. Okay, I miss 2159 02:05:16.800 --> 02:05:21.399 somebody's super chat about Philly Oquay where to go? Oh 2160 02:05:21.439 --> 02:05:27.239 taint nothing twenty dollars. Aspiration does not mean cause. Then 2161 02:05:27.279 --> 02:05:29.439 the Roman Catholic model doesn't tell us anything about the 2162 02:05:29.479 --> 02:05:32.880 origin of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, great, exactly, Like every time, 2163 02:05:33.159 --> 02:05:37.119 I think they don't understand what spiration is because they 2164 02:05:37.159 --> 02:05:40.439 think that this is the person of the spirit. They 2165 02:05:40.439 --> 02:05:46.640 think the persons are their relations and so, oh, well, 2166 02:05:46.640 --> 02:05:49.479 the spirit just is spiration. Person is relation, right, that's 2167 02:05:49.479 --> 02:05:55.880 a quittas But spiration is what produces the spirit, it's 2168 02:05:55.880 --> 02:05:59.479 not the subject himself. And that's what's confusing is that 2169 02:05:59.520 --> 02:06:03.319 they don't even understand the basics of distinguishing nature in person, 2170 02:06:03.359 --> 02:06:06.319 the trinity they don't even think of the person's as 2171 02:06:06.359 --> 02:06:09.079 three subjects or agents. Like that's how insane this is 2172 02:06:09.600 --> 02:06:11.439 and why it's so difficult to talk to them is 2173 02:06:11.479 --> 02:06:15.239 like they're not using the Cappadocian causal framework and they 2174 02:06:15.239 --> 02:06:19.560 don't understand when we use this terminology versus them, it's 2175 02:06:19.600 --> 02:06:25.800 all getting all jumbled up because it's different. It's different models. 2176 02:06:28.119 --> 02:06:31.039 Gum chewy two dollars. If the keys still rattle after 2177 02:06:31.079 --> 02:06:33.640 two thousand years, then they must work exactly. That's the 2178 02:06:33.720 --> 02:06:38.239 level of argument that we're using here. I'm really kind 2179 02:06:38.239 --> 02:06:44.399 of pissed off about this Internet because you know, I 2180 02:06:44.399 --> 02:06:46.079 I don't really understand why this is an issue. It 2181 02:06:46.079 --> 02:06:49.840 shouldn't be an issue with the internet here, but there's 2182 02:06:49.880 --> 02:06:52.079 actually like literally like the speed of the Internet is 2183 02:06:52.119 --> 02:06:55.079 like dropping right now, which is pissing me off because 2184 02:06:55.399 --> 02:07:04.680 it's not supposed to. Jose, Hey Dreck, can you hear me? 2185 02:07:06.359 --> 02:07:09.239 Yeah? I just got a quick question for you. So 2186 02:07:09.279 --> 02:07:10.720 I just started a book recently. 2187 02:07:10.800 --> 02:07:14.399 It's called Antichrist and the Fulfillment of Globalization. 2188 02:07:14.800 --> 02:07:15.880 I founded on Amazon. 2189 02:07:15.960 --> 02:07:18.760 It's been pretty interesting read so far. 2190 02:07:19.720 --> 02:07:23.079 But is that the first Davis guy, the Orthodox guy. 2191 02:07:24.920 --> 02:07:25.680 GM Davis. 2192 02:07:25.760 --> 02:07:29.039 Yeah, he's Orthox. Yeah, I didn't. 2193 02:07:28.800 --> 02:07:31.119 Know if he was or not, but it was clear 2194 02:07:31.159 --> 02:07:34.119 in the beginning that he was writing it for that perspective, 2195 02:07:34.279 --> 02:07:38.000 as opposed to Protestant or Catholic. But I don't know 2196 02:07:38.039 --> 02:07:40.239 if you've read it, but I'm about sixty eight pages 2197 02:07:40.279 --> 02:07:42.399 in and he's doing a great job pretty much. 2198 02:07:43.239 --> 02:07:45.600 Yeah, I thought the chapter, I've read some of it, 2199 02:07:45.640 --> 02:07:48.800 maybe three chapters. The chapter's critique and Puritanism and all 2200 02:07:48.800 --> 02:07:49.680 that stuff was really good. 2201 02:07:52.119 --> 02:07:54.039 Well, I know you're pretty well read on some of 2202 02:07:54.079 --> 02:07:56.960 the Church Fathers and everything, and a good part of 2203 02:07:56.960 --> 02:08:00.359 the first portion of this book it's just making a 2204 02:08:00.439 --> 02:08:07.279 part different Church Fathers quotes about what the different characteristics 2205 02:08:07.439 --> 02:08:10.520 of the Antichrist would be. And so I don't know 2206 02:08:10.560 --> 02:08:12.720 before I finish the rest of the book, do you 2207 02:08:12.880 --> 02:08:15.680 have anything you can pick off the top of your 2208 02:08:15.680 --> 02:08:18.920 head from Church Fathers that you've read it about, or 2209 02:08:19.479 --> 02:08:21.399 I don't know things that you might know about the 2210 02:08:21.600 --> 02:08:23.279 characteristics of the Antichrist. 2211 02:08:23.760 --> 02:08:26.359 Yeah, there's a little book put out by Jordanville Monastery 2212 02:08:26.399 --> 02:08:30.000 called Aposse and Antichrist, and it's about sixty pages and 2213 02:08:30.039 --> 02:08:32.039 it has a whole section on exactly what you're asking 2214 02:08:32.079 --> 02:08:34.560 for the Only problem is that it's sometimes it's hard 2215 02:08:34.600 --> 02:08:36.960 to find in print. But if you go to YouTube, 2216 02:08:37.399 --> 02:08:39.720 there was a guy who read the entire sixty page 2217 02:08:39.720 --> 02:08:43.039 thing in a series of videos. Just type in Orthodox 2218 02:08:43.239 --> 02:08:48.039 or Aposse Antichrist, Orthodox and it'll come up. It's really good. Yohannis, 2219 02:08:48.119 --> 02:09:03.239 what's up man, I'm mute. 2220 02:09:07.399 --> 02:09:10.239 A mister Dyer, thank younglish. I don't know if the 2221 02:09:10.279 --> 02:09:11.560 other speaker was finished speaking. 2222 02:09:12.840 --> 02:09:16.600 Yeah, he was, all right, so glitch on my end. 2223 02:09:16.760 --> 02:09:19.640 All right, So I'm coming from the SSPX side of things, 2224 02:09:19.640 --> 02:09:22.399 been a category in for about two years, and I'm 2225 02:09:22.520 --> 02:09:26.319 having trouble still seeing the way comedian functions. 2226 02:09:28.199 --> 02:09:32.319 Hold on, you're a orthodoxed catecumen or you're an SSPX person. 2227 02:09:33.399 --> 02:09:36.960 No, no, no, Orthodox catechuman. I'm coming out of the. 2228 02:09:37.039 --> 02:09:40.199 SSPR Okay, okay, yeah, So. 2229 02:09:41.920 --> 02:09:48.279 Of course I see the discrepancies that the Roman Catholic 2230 02:09:48.319 --> 02:09:52.039 comedian model poses, the way heresy affects. 2231 02:09:51.600 --> 02:09:54.199 The complete capitulation of that comedian. 2232 02:09:56.159 --> 02:10:00.319 Now the Orthodoxy, of course, there's this current situation. 2233 02:10:00.079 --> 02:10:02.680 With Ukraine and uh well. 2234 02:10:02.600 --> 02:10:07.239 Russia mostly on patriot content and noble So what's a 2235 02:10:07.359 --> 02:10:10.039 section or how is communium preserved in. 2236 02:10:10.039 --> 02:10:10.960 A situation like this. 2237 02:10:11.880 --> 02:10:14.039 Yeah, so if you look in the early Church, there's 2238 02:10:14.119 --> 02:10:19.279 many parallels and analogous to the situation of the patriarchal schism. 2239 02:10:19.720 --> 02:10:21.560 There's a book on this that was put out by 2240 02:10:22.600 --> 02:10:26.439 Jordanville as well, and I've done some podcasts in the past. 2241 02:10:27.399 --> 02:10:30.600 So I mean, you've got the Accacion schism, You've got 2242 02:10:30.600 --> 02:10:35.319 the Malician schism, which was again with Rome. So having 2243 02:10:35.359 --> 02:10:40.279 these such aschisms isn't a defeater when it's normal in 2244 02:10:40.399 --> 02:10:43.000 church history. It's not good, but it's normal in church history. 2245 02:10:43.680 --> 02:10:46.720 So uh yeah, just check those things out. Demon Hunter. 2246 02:10:46.800 --> 02:10:49.359 What's that man? By the way, guys, if you want 2247 02:10:49.359 --> 02:10:51.800 to the Church Papsy Schism book, we did a whole 2248 02:10:51.800 --> 02:10:58.079 podcast on that. I forgot it's right here, the Scharard book. 2249 02:10:58.199 --> 02:11:01.479 So if you're interested in church papsy Schism, highly recommend it. 2250 02:11:01.479 --> 02:11:04.159 It's not very long, it's only about one hundred page book, 2251 02:11:04.239 --> 02:11:07.279 but we have a podcast on it there. I'm not 2252 02:11:07.279 --> 02:11:09.560 gonna have time to do the whole Joel Heschmeyer video, 2253 02:11:09.960 --> 02:11:13.319 but it's okay because Alex Soren's whole video is pretty 2254 02:11:13.359 --> 02:11:16.439 much refutes all the arguments in it. We will probably 2255 02:11:16.479 --> 02:11:22.960 finish the Brian Holsworth video. What's up, man, demon? What's up? 2256 02:11:23.760 --> 02:11:30.039 Hi? Bro? I'm I'm Orthodox Christian. I have one question. 2257 02:11:30.239 --> 02:11:34.560 I'm a little bit unsure about one specific topic. 2258 02:11:35.199 --> 02:11:40.279 Okay, how do we differentiate what is a holy. 2259 02:11:40.039 --> 02:11:43.399 Tradition and recognized church history? 2260 02:11:45.000 --> 02:11:45.520 I mean. 2261 02:11:47.359 --> 02:11:49.159 Recognized church history? What do you mean? 2262 02:11:50.640 --> 02:11:56.159 For example, we have many stories about a life of saints, 2263 02:11:56.399 --> 02:12:06.640 ther mission of Most Mary John Apostle and said, and uh. 2264 02:12:07.039 --> 02:12:08.079 This is what we believe. 2265 02:12:08.159 --> 02:12:11.640 That's a that's within the sacred holy tradition. 2266 02:12:12.520 --> 02:12:16.760 And also another church. 2267 02:12:16.680 --> 02:12:22.319 History about ecumenical councils and and everything that and the 2268 02:12:22.319 --> 02:12:27.760 writings of some patristics about Urineus and Antioch, and that's. 2269 02:12:27.520 --> 02:12:32.560 A that's a somehow scholastically approved. How do we how 2270 02:12:32.560 --> 02:12:33.479 do we difference? 2271 02:12:33.520 --> 02:12:36.680 Well, I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking your 2272 02:12:36.680 --> 02:12:41.520 as scholasticism, life is all over the place, man, Andreas? 2273 02:12:41.560 --> 02:12:41.720 What was. 2274 02:12:53.439 --> 02:12:54.720 I'm you? Andres? 2275 02:12:56.279 --> 02:12:56.840 Hey, what's up? 2276 02:12:56.920 --> 02:12:58.680 J what's talking about? 2277 02:12:59.840 --> 02:13:03.600 I had a quick question, so I'll watching your video that. 2278 02:13:03.520 --> 02:13:05.720 You did to a convert to the conversation you had 2279 02:13:05.760 --> 02:13:08.920 with Stephen Mueller Stephen Mayfler. 2280 02:13:08.760 --> 02:13:09.479 I don't know his name. 2281 02:13:10.960 --> 02:13:20.039 Aout Yeah, Muffler, Yeah, Stephen Muffler, Yes, the atheist Stephen Muffler. 2282 02:13:21.239 --> 02:13:21.479 Yeah. 2283 02:13:21.520 --> 02:13:24.239 So I senior guys as a conversation, and I got 2284 02:13:24.319 --> 02:13:28.000 kind of held up on the whole seven coconuts and 2285 02:13:28.079 --> 02:13:32.079 that the way I took it was that we can't 2286 02:13:32.079 --> 02:13:35.560 do I mean, the concept of seven is not external. 2287 02:13:36.600 --> 02:13:39.439 I was kind of lost in that that, you know, 2288 02:13:39.520 --> 02:13:40.720 if you could explain that part. 2289 02:13:42.520 --> 02:13:49.760 Yeah, So I was arguing that you can't equate seven 2290 02:13:49.920 --> 02:13:53.520 to the molecules that make up coconuts. Seven has to 2291 02:13:53.520 --> 02:13:55.680 be something more than that. So basically I'm just pulling 2292 02:13:55.680 --> 02:13:59.960 from uh Plato, ancient Platonic arguments and the dialogues about 2293 02:14:01.520 --> 02:14:04.359 you can't you can't have these reductionist approaches to give 2294 02:14:04.399 --> 02:14:07.920 an account for things like concepts, ideas, and numbers because 2295 02:14:08.000 --> 02:14:14.479 they seem to have universal, universal, immaterial invariant qualities and 2296 02:14:15.239 --> 02:14:18.800 that's not explained by materialism very well or not at all. 2297 02:14:19.319 --> 02:14:22.279 So that's what I was arguing because Stefan seemed to 2298 02:14:22.319 --> 02:14:29.039 just equate universals with matter, and anybody who equates universal 2299 02:14:29.039 --> 02:14:32.159 with matter has a lot of philosophical problems. So that's 2300 02:14:32.159 --> 02:14:35.800 what I was worrying. Here is Alex Soren's video responding 2301 02:14:35.840 --> 02:14:40.279 to Joel Heshmeier and then I'm going to finish with 2302 02:14:40.399 --> 02:14:45.399 the response to Brian Holdsworth. Let's see extra what's up. 2303 02:14:50.199 --> 02:14:55.319 Hello, Hey, hey Jay, I just want to say congratulations 2304 02:14:55.319 --> 02:14:57.239 on your big win against Gordon. 2305 02:14:56.960 --> 02:14:57.439 The other day. 2306 02:14:58.840 --> 02:14:59.359 Thanks Matt. 2307 02:15:00.359 --> 02:15:02.239 And I was just. 2308 02:15:02.279 --> 02:15:04.800 Wondering if I could take a few seconds to like 2309 02:15:05.039 --> 02:15:07.399 expound on something you said earlier that I thought was 2310 02:15:08.239 --> 02:15:12.720 kind of important. Okay, sure, So, Like something I've noticed 2311 02:15:12.800 --> 02:15:15.840 is a lot of like Tradcats and Roman Catholics do 2312 02:15:15.960 --> 02:15:20.600 this thing where they kind of like argue for like 2313 02:15:20.720 --> 02:15:23.720 the papacy, but they never like they say like these 2314 02:15:23.800 --> 02:15:24.920 quote minds and stuff, and. 2315 02:15:24.880 --> 02:15:28.039 It's like they never argue for the temporal supremacy. 2316 02:15:28.079 --> 02:15:32.840 And I was listening to your thing about Gladio and 2317 02:15:32.880 --> 02:15:34.399 I went and picked up the book and I started 2318 02:15:34.399 --> 02:15:36.439 reading it, like I got five chapters in when it 2319 02:15:36.439 --> 02:15:39.439 starts talking about the Freemasons and all that, and it's 2320 02:15:39.680 --> 02:15:43.640 I don't understand how you could justify this with what 2321 02:15:43.760 --> 02:15:47.039 the first millennium of the churches, And like, I've never 2322 02:15:47.119 --> 02:15:47.960 heard of Roman. 2323 02:15:47.760 --> 02:15:49.039 Catholic address it right. 2324 02:15:49.640 --> 02:15:52.199 It's they just handwave it or too quotely and say, well, 2325 02:15:52.199 --> 02:15:55.680 the KGB bishops are, and it's just I just can't 2326 02:15:55.960 --> 02:15:57.960 even like, I feel like that's kind of the straw 2327 02:15:57.960 --> 02:16:00.439 that broke the camel's back on this whole eight of 2328 02:16:01.159 --> 02:16:05.760 Orthodox and Catholicism. Just that, and then also that the 2329 02:16:05.800 --> 02:16:07.960 news the thing you were talking about recently. 2330 02:16:08.560 --> 02:16:11.600 With I forget what that document was called, but it's 2331 02:16:11.640 --> 02:16:13.239 where it's like the Marxist. 2332 02:16:14.960 --> 02:16:16.199 Yeah, this one is crazy. 2333 02:16:16.600 --> 02:16:20.359 They're like saying, they're saying, it's like, we don't there's 2334 02:16:20.399 --> 02:16:23.439 no like no politics in the church basically, and then 2335 02:16:23.479 --> 02:16:29.119 they expouse Marxism stuff, and it's like it's so first 2336 02:16:29.119 --> 02:16:34.680 we're fighting communism in Gladiola and funneling drug money, and 2337 02:16:34.719 --> 02:16:39.280 now we're pushing Marxism and but there's no politics in 2338 02:16:39.319 --> 02:16:42.600 the church. It's just it's so silly. I don't understand it. 2339 02:16:42.600 --> 02:16:44.559 Has any Roman Catholic ever addressed this. 2340 02:16:44.680 --> 02:16:47.399 It's so it's not yet, it's so stupid it is. 2341 02:16:48.319 --> 02:16:51.920 I'm still waiting. I'd like to see some kind of 2342 02:16:52.280 --> 02:16:55.520 debate discussion on this, because I think it's another kill shot. 2343 02:16:56.040 --> 02:16:58.280 The only problem with this kill shot is that, like 2344 02:16:58.360 --> 02:17:00.399 you said, like you kind of have to read the 2345 02:17:00.399 --> 02:17:02.239 gladiol book and none of them are going to do it. 2346 02:17:02.760 --> 02:17:08.280 So it's just like it doesn't achieve much of its 2347 02:17:08.319 --> 02:17:10.799 effect when they won't look at the material. 2348 02:17:10.600 --> 02:17:13.399 Like and like they pretend to be this like it's 2349 02:17:13.440 --> 02:17:16.280 like this based church thing, when it's the CIA is 2350 02:17:16.280 --> 02:17:17.399 completely infiltrated. 2351 02:17:17.520 --> 02:17:20.000 It's they've picked all these popes. It's so silly. I 2352 02:17:20.040 --> 02:17:21.600 don't get it. 2353 02:17:21.600 --> 02:17:25.600 It's a thing. It's the it's the church in their 2354 02:17:25.639 --> 02:17:29.559 head that they want to be the case based on 2355 02:17:29.719 --> 02:17:33.000 how they interpret and reconstruct various books and Texans and 2356 02:17:33.280 --> 02:17:35.440 ways that they like exactly, and it's nothing to do 2357 02:17:35.520 --> 02:17:38.000 with the actual on the ground church in Rome, which 2358 02:17:38.079 --> 02:17:40.559 is the one that's Oh, by the way, guys, did 2359 02:17:40.600 --> 02:17:43.040 you see that they're hosting a giant gay event. 2360 02:17:44.239 --> 02:17:46.079 I was about to bring that up also, and then 2361 02:17:46.280 --> 02:17:49.040 like cope, respector and all those people are saying like, well, 2362 02:17:49.079 --> 02:17:50.600 they didn't prove it, and it's like. 2363 02:17:50.520 --> 02:17:53.079 They're hosting the what are you talking about? They could 2364 02:17:53.120 --> 02:17:55.520 they could immediately excommunicate James. 2365 02:17:55.159 --> 02:17:59.040 Martin and it's like this's on their calendar. It's all this. 2366 02:17:59.200 --> 02:18:02.440 It's like, well they're not, they haven't specifically endorsed it. 2367 02:18:02.600 --> 02:18:04.600 And then they like shift the goalpost when they get 2368 02:18:04.600 --> 02:18:07.399 called out and it's just it's so stupid. I just 2369 02:18:07.440 --> 02:18:09.959 can't do this double think in Rome. 2370 02:18:10.159 --> 02:18:13.479 Right, were you previously Roman Catholic or no? I was. 2371 02:18:13.559 --> 02:18:16.719 I was raised Baptist, but I was kind of I've 2372 02:18:16.719 --> 02:18:18.559 been doing for like the past six months. I'm an 2373 02:18:18.639 --> 02:18:22.399 Orthodox catechum in now, but I was doing like I'm 2374 02:18:22.399 --> 02:18:25.159 in between Orthodox and Catholicism. But this this stuff on 2375 02:18:25.280 --> 02:18:27.760 Gladio is just kind of the kill shot in my opinion, Like, 2376 02:18:27.799 --> 02:18:31.159 I can't it's either atheism or Orthodoxy at this point. 2377 02:18:32.959 --> 02:18:37.639 So yeah, I appreciate that, and uh yeah, stick to 2378 02:18:38.000 --> 02:18:42.159 checking out the Yakoubian memoirs. I think that's what you 2379 02:18:42.239 --> 02:18:44.840 need to read, as I detect a little bit of 2380 02:18:44.879 --> 02:18:48.079 too much of a white voice there. You need a 2381 02:18:48.120 --> 02:18:50.719 little more cream in your coffee, I mean coffee and 2382 02:18:50.760 --> 02:18:56.120 your cream. Vatican will host a LGBTQ plus event next 2383 02:18:56.200 --> 02:19:02.159 week welcoming and together with Pope Leo. There will be prayers. 2384 02:19:02.879 --> 02:19:06.120 But don't worry. It's trad it's based because it's run 2385 02:19:06.159 --> 02:19:11.520 by James Martin. Yeah, Brian, five dollars, thank you Jay. 2386 02:19:12.319 --> 02:19:16.360 For the moral law contradictions aspect, it seems like contracepting 2387 02:19:16.600 --> 02:19:21.479 is part of their Dalla script. Yeah, except that if 2388 02:19:21.520 --> 02:19:25.520 you watch the Ubi Petris on Divorce Andary Marriage documentary 2389 02:19:25.600 --> 02:19:30.040 ended the interview with Ubi Petris and doctor David Bradshaw 2390 02:19:30.159 --> 02:19:33.079 on that it's actually really good and enlightening too. It's 2391 02:19:33.079 --> 02:19:35.959 too much to go into with like their natural law 2392 02:19:36.040 --> 02:19:40.479 theory position when it comes to because the real reason 2393 02:19:40.479 --> 02:19:44.040 that they're against contraception and all this stuff is the 2394 02:19:44.159 --> 02:19:49.360 tomistic arguments about the tlose of body parts. And I 2395 02:19:49.440 --> 02:19:52.559 kid you not, this is actually what leads them. I'm 2396 02:19:52.719 --> 02:19:54.600 not joking when I say this. Nobody believes me to 2397 02:19:54.680 --> 02:19:58.760 look it up. This is what leads them to say 2398 02:19:58.920 --> 02:20:07.639 that I n ceest is not as bad as m 2399 02:20:07.680 --> 02:20:09.600 A S tu r b A t I O N 2400 02:20:12.120 --> 02:20:18.079 So you jerking is worse than sleeping with your mom 2401 02:20:18.159 --> 02:20:20.959 or your sister in Roman cality moral theology, I'm not kidding. 2402 02:20:22.879 --> 02:20:26.840 That's their position, and these are the moral high ground people. 2403 02:20:26.920 --> 02:20:28.840 And you wonder why there are a bunch of PDF 2404 02:20:29.120 --> 02:20:32.639 creeps fuel my fire. Five dollars. Stream is actually smooth today, 2405 02:20:32.639 --> 02:20:34.280 I'm enjoining it. I don't know how the stream is 2406 02:20:34.319 --> 02:20:36.959 smooth with the way that the internet is acting weird 2407 02:20:37.000 --> 02:20:40.559 as hell. I don't know what's going on, but I'm 2408 02:20:40.600 --> 02:20:42.639 glad it's working smooth. It's not coming up well for 2409 02:20:42.760 --> 02:20:51.360 me though, Yashi five dollars. I grew up Protestant. The 2410 02:20:51.399 --> 02:20:53.920 more I study, I see more points towards Orthodoxy. I'm 2411 02:20:53.920 --> 02:20:55.639 still learning, but I plan to go The liturgy or 2412 02:20:55.719 --> 02:21:00.319 content has been helpful. Thank you, Yosh. Appreciate that I 2413 02:21:00.399 --> 02:21:03.799 make sure did miss super chests over here on stream labs. 2414 02:21:03.879 --> 02:21:07.440 Luigi got shrooms. Ten dollars. Will the argument against solid 2415 02:21:07.440 --> 02:21:10.879 scriptura apply to Orthodox bishops who are arguing over scripture. 2416 02:21:10.959 --> 02:21:14.239 It's a genuine question. I'm trying to find out the truth. Sorry, 2417 02:21:14.360 --> 02:21:17.239 the stupid question. It's not a stupid question. Let me 2418 02:21:17.239 --> 02:21:18.760 see if I can figure it out. Would the argument 2419 02:21:18.840 --> 02:21:25.479 against solo scriptura apply to two bishops arguing over scripture? 2420 02:21:27.479 --> 02:21:30.159 The argument against well, the argument against solar scriptura is 2421 02:21:30.239 --> 02:21:35.280 basically manifold. It's that you need tradition to know authorship 2422 02:21:36.159 --> 02:21:41.760 to know the canon. And would that would a tradition 2423 02:21:41.920 --> 02:21:45.719 apply to two bishops arguing over I guess you mean yeah, 2424 02:21:45.959 --> 02:21:48.239 I think yes. Like if you're saying, like, if two 2425 02:21:48.399 --> 02:21:52.559 Orthodox bishops disagreed over the interpretation of a text, would 2426 02:21:52.680 --> 02:21:57.040 tradition kind of supersede. Yes, I think that's what you're saying, 2427 02:21:57.079 --> 02:21:59.840 and I'll be inclined to say yes if that's if 2428 02:21:59.879 --> 02:22:03.280 I understanding the question correctly. Voll truro five dollars. I 2429 02:22:03.399 --> 02:22:06.799 requested to speak. I'm sorry if I missed you. You 2430 02:22:06.920 --> 02:22:12.479 want to come back. If I missed you, try again, Harry. 2431 02:22:17.600 --> 02:22:23.079 Hello, Yeah, So my name's Harrison. I'm just kind of 2432 02:22:23.159 --> 02:22:25.760 new to your channel. I got watched your debate with 2433 02:22:26.079 --> 02:22:29.680 Nick Flintes and then I watched you Hodge Twins podcast. 2434 02:22:29.799 --> 02:22:32.959 But I just I'm not too familiar with your stuff. 2435 02:22:32.959 --> 02:22:34.399 But I wonder how you kind of got into the 2436 02:22:34.479 --> 02:22:38.799 rabbit hole of ethan Eastern Orthodox and where I should start, 2437 02:22:38.799 --> 02:22:41.399 because I mean me personally haven't even read the Bible. 2438 02:22:41.520 --> 02:22:43.559 Okay, yeah, that's cool. I mean I got into this 2439 02:22:43.680 --> 02:22:48.760 stuff because in when I was early college, right out 2440 02:22:48.760 --> 02:22:54.079 of right out of high school, I got interested in apologetics, debates, philosophy. 2441 02:22:54.399 --> 02:22:58.879 So I studied philosophy and film theory and whatnot in college. 2442 02:23:00.760 --> 02:23:04.239 Studied more of that literature and philosophy in grad school, 2443 02:23:04.680 --> 02:23:06.799 but I continued to have an interest in theology and 2444 02:23:06.879 --> 02:23:09.920 church history and church fathers and so it's just kind 2445 02:23:09.959 --> 02:23:11.719 of stuff I've been into for I don't know, the 2446 02:23:11.840 --> 02:23:15.280 last twenty plus years, twenty five years, since about the 2447 02:23:15.360 --> 02:23:21.479 year two thousand. But like the pathway into Orthodoxy was 2448 02:23:21.600 --> 02:23:25.559 kind of a long route through leaving Protestantism for Catholicism 2449 02:23:25.680 --> 02:23:27.959 into the year two thousand, I think two thousand and one, 2450 02:23:28.079 --> 02:23:31.239 somewhere in maybe two thousand and three, I think, so 2451 02:23:31.319 --> 02:23:33.959 as Catholic for eight nine, ten years somewhere in there. 2452 02:23:34.079 --> 02:23:37.920 I went to Latin Mass for many years tradcat SSPX attendee, 2453 02:23:39.319 --> 02:23:42.520 and then I had a hard time making that work, 2454 02:23:42.600 --> 02:23:45.799 and that led me into looking at Orthodoxy back in 2455 02:23:45.840 --> 02:23:48.760 two thousand and seven. I didn't convert, though, because I 2456 02:23:48.799 --> 02:23:50.799 had a lot of hang ups, a lot of hesitations, 2457 02:23:52.079 --> 02:23:56.959 so ended up converting Orthodoxy ultimately in twenty seventeen. But 2458 02:23:57.040 --> 02:24:00.760 I studied it for many, many years. So orthodox route 2459 02:24:00.799 --> 02:24:03.680 was kind of a long winding route through different ideas 2460 02:24:03.719 --> 02:24:06.600 and positions, and I basically studied it for ten years 2461 02:24:06.639 --> 02:24:07.360 before I converted. 2462 02:24:08.319 --> 02:24:09.040 Gotcha, Okay? 2463 02:24:09.079 --> 02:24:11.319 Yeah? The only reason I asked is I'm a Lutheran 2464 02:24:11.479 --> 02:24:14.159 by you know, way of birth, I guess, but I'm 2465 02:24:14.479 --> 02:24:16.440 barely even know my own position and I'm just kind 2466 02:24:16.440 --> 02:24:19.319 of getting into this whole world of yeah, Christianity, I guess, 2467 02:24:19.319 --> 02:24:20.440 so I just just wanted to ask that. 2468 02:24:20.719 --> 02:24:22.840 I would say, if you're interested in the Orthodox position, 2469 02:24:23.000 --> 02:24:25.799 I would start with something like the icon Documentary, which 2470 02:24:25.879 --> 02:24:29.000 is a three hour, seven part documentary on the history 2471 02:24:29.000 --> 02:24:32.319 of iconography and the Orthodox Church. So it's kind of 2472 02:24:32.360 --> 02:24:36.639 a unique, interesting way to go about looking at a 2473 02:24:36.760 --> 02:24:39.280 church history. I would get an Orthodox study Bible if 2474 02:24:39.319 --> 02:24:41.000 you were if you wanted to start reading the Bible. 2475 02:24:42.360 --> 02:24:44.559 It's probably the best study Bible out there. And then 2476 02:24:44.840 --> 02:24:49.360 you know, just check out good Orthodox content creators, Christian logos. 2477 02:24:49.399 --> 02:24:54.799 What's up. Father Deacon Nis is great, he's got good 2478 02:24:54.879 --> 02:24:57.559 philosophy stuff. What's up man? 2479 02:24:58.879 --> 02:24:59.079 Yeah? 2480 02:24:59.200 --> 02:25:03.879 Hey, I had got on father Deacon Doctor Antonius's live 2481 02:25:03.959 --> 02:25:06.959 stream on philosophy a while and we had we had 2482 02:25:06.959 --> 02:25:10.120 a discussion on this and we went kind of in depth, 2483 02:25:10.159 --> 02:25:12.559 and I want to kind of hear your take on 2484 02:25:12.760 --> 02:25:15.600 this and maybe if it would be a valuable approach. 2485 02:25:16.159 --> 02:25:19.479 But when I was studying your tag, and especially as 2486 02:25:19.559 --> 02:25:25.200 tag relates to absolute divine simplicity, I stumbled across two fallacies, 2487 02:25:25.280 --> 02:25:30.040 which were the reification fallacy and the anthropomorphis fallacy. 2488 02:25:29.959 --> 02:25:33.479 And I started playing around with those in combination to. 2489 02:25:33.600 --> 02:25:37.319 A critique with kind of an ADS view, you know, 2490 02:25:37.440 --> 02:25:41.760 a platonic view, and I saw, you know, and this 2491 02:25:41.879 --> 02:25:43.959 is where I'd like to hear your opinion, as I 2492 02:25:44.000 --> 02:25:46.680 saw a lot of value in using those in accordance 2493 02:25:46.760 --> 02:25:51.799 with TAG, because the reification fallacy would be treating abstract 2494 02:25:51.920 --> 02:25:56.799 concepts either a you know, as if they're not in hypostatics, 2495 02:25:57.040 --> 02:25:59.799 but also treating them as if they have causal relations 2496 02:25:59.840 --> 02:26:03.440 to this world without justifying them appropriately. And then the 2497 02:26:03.479 --> 02:26:07.040 anthropomorphic fallacy kind of critiques the opposite end, where it's 2498 02:26:07.159 --> 02:26:10.920 like reading in too much into the divine from from 2499 02:26:11.079 --> 02:26:15.159 the anthropology of creation, and in those in those, you know, 2500 02:26:15.280 --> 02:26:20.000 those in combination seem to kind of necessitate a a 2501 02:26:20.200 --> 02:26:25.079 nature and hypothesis distinction and an essence energy distinction. 2502 02:26:25.200 --> 02:26:28.360 And I was wondering what maybe your take on that 2503 02:26:28.440 --> 02:26:29.680 would be, or what your opinion on. 2504 02:26:29.719 --> 02:26:38.159 That would be. I mean it sounds plausible, uh initially right, right, 2505 02:26:38.440 --> 02:26:40.760 I mean we were getna. They seem like good lines 2506 02:26:40.799 --> 02:26:43.239 of critique. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, I need 2507 02:26:43.280 --> 02:26:44.399 to hear more, but it seems like it. 2508 02:26:45.479 --> 02:26:47.719 Well, and what we were kind of getting into is like. 2509 02:26:48.159 --> 02:26:50.920 It's because I noticed in a lot of your debates 2510 02:26:51.159 --> 02:26:54.280 and debates with Roman Catholics, debates with whoever kind of 2511 02:26:54.319 --> 02:26:56.559 holds to an ADS position, which tends to be a 2512 02:26:56.639 --> 02:27:02.040 lot of worldviews, they try to maintain transcendence without really 2513 02:27:02.319 --> 02:27:05.520 justifying how the cause of relations of that transcendence could 2514 02:27:06.120 --> 02:27:07.559 actually enter time and space. 2515 02:27:07.680 --> 02:27:09.840 Yes, in fact, in fact, it's funny you say that 2516 02:27:10.040 --> 02:27:13.040 because before the Tim Gordon debate, I was on the 2517 02:27:13.159 --> 02:27:16.399 road driving down to Miami talking to barther Deacon Anonias, 2518 02:27:17.360 --> 02:27:20.440 and we were rehearsing and rehashing one of his critiques 2519 02:27:20.479 --> 02:27:25.319 of tonism, which is precisely that if you say that 2520 02:27:25.760 --> 02:27:29.600 the first actuality or the first cause is cashed out 2521 02:27:29.680 --> 02:27:33.000 as basically opposite the created order and nothing like it, 2522 02:27:33.079 --> 02:27:35.120 which is what you would say in the via negativa, 2523 02:27:35.719 --> 02:27:37.719 But then you turn around and say that, but we 2524 02:27:37.840 --> 02:27:40.959 all know from the principle of causality that every effect 2525 02:27:41.120 --> 02:27:44.159 bears a similarity to its cause. That's begging the question 2526 02:27:45.360 --> 02:27:46.399 right exactly. 2527 02:27:47.000 --> 02:27:49.920 And the thing too is I also see how this 2528 02:27:50.040 --> 02:27:54.200 could necessitate a hypothesis in nature, because if you treat 2529 02:27:54.319 --> 02:27:58.040 nature as something abstracted from a personal actor or something 2530 02:27:58.079 --> 02:28:01.280 to actually a subject that has a Then technically you'd 2531 02:28:01.319 --> 02:28:04.239 fall into the reiflication fallacy right there, as treating some 2532 02:28:04.399 --> 02:28:07.760 concept that's outside of something that needs to be in hypostesize. 2533 02:28:08.280 --> 02:28:10.319 So I was wondering, you know, in the future, maybe 2534 02:28:10.639 --> 02:28:13.200 I could see a lot of value in incorporating those 2535 02:28:13.280 --> 02:28:16.639 two fallacies in tandem, because you know, if we want 2536 02:28:16.760 --> 02:28:21.440 to be logically coherent, which obviously a Tomist or Roman Catholic, 2537 02:28:21.520 --> 02:28:23.920 this is going to be their their number one priority 2538 02:28:24.040 --> 02:28:28.600 is remaining logically consistent, because you know they're scholastic. Well, 2539 02:28:28.639 --> 02:28:31.760 then you would have to argue for a non fallacious 2540 02:28:31.840 --> 02:28:34.760 move when you're describing God. Right, there's no way, there's 2541 02:28:34.840 --> 02:28:37.959 no way to avoid avoid both those logical fallacies without 2542 02:28:38.079 --> 02:28:42.680 necessitating an asincerity distinction and a nature hypostasis distinction. 2543 02:28:43.319 --> 02:28:45.559 And obviously they're not going to be able to actually 2544 02:28:45.680 --> 02:28:47.159 uphold that. I don't think. 2545 02:28:47.360 --> 02:28:48.959 No, well, they're going to say that. You don't know 2546 02:28:49.079 --> 02:28:51.120 that yet. You just know about the first cause the 2547 02:28:51.159 --> 02:28:53.879 first actualizer. You don't know if he's I mean that's 2548 02:28:53.920 --> 02:28:57.600 I mean, well, what is he? Is it personal or 2549 02:28:57.719 --> 02:28:58.239 is it a heat? 2550 02:28:58.399 --> 02:28:58.920 Like? What is this? 2551 02:29:00.079 --> 02:29:00.200 Right? 2552 02:29:00.520 --> 02:29:00.639 Right? 2553 02:29:00.840 --> 02:29:03.959 Yeah? Yeah, I like this. I like this line of 2554 02:29:04.040 --> 02:29:04.399 thought here. 2555 02:29:05.520 --> 02:29:08.200 Yeah, because I was trying to find some way to 2556 02:29:08.440 --> 02:29:12.760 necessitate in a sense energy distinction, because that's obviously paramount 2557 02:29:12.840 --> 02:29:15.799 to orthodox theology, and a lot of times the debates 2558 02:29:15.920 --> 02:29:18.680 kind of end up in that, Like they usually mess 2559 02:29:18.799 --> 02:29:22.000 up exactly how God can remain transcended and really truly 2560 02:29:22.120 --> 02:29:24.319 be God in his essence being unchangeable. 2561 02:29:24.399 --> 02:29:28.319 Well, you notice in the debate with Tim, even though 2562 02:29:28.319 --> 02:29:30.239 we weren't debating a pistemology or anything like that, Like 2563 02:29:30.319 --> 02:29:34.239 he was beginning to kind of struggle with At first 2564 02:29:34.280 --> 02:29:36.879 he said that Theophanes are the substance of God going 2565 02:29:36.959 --> 02:29:39.239 before them. He backtracked that. I was like, no, actually, 2566 02:29:39.239 --> 02:29:41.680 it was just a creature. And then he was like 2567 02:29:41.760 --> 02:29:44.079 at one point stumbling over whether or not God could 2568 02:29:44.079 --> 02:29:46.280 be in time and space, And it's like, do you 2569 02:29:46.360 --> 02:29:49.120 not understand that this is going to pose a problem 2570 02:29:49.239 --> 02:29:52.280 with the incarnation eventually. Like I think he was sort 2571 02:29:52.319 --> 02:29:57.479 of struggling with the tomistic metaphysical God, but also the 2572 02:29:57.920 --> 02:30:00.920 Christianity Jesus God in car and eight. It's like those 2573 02:30:00.959 --> 02:30:03.200 are two different systems. They're incommntional right. 2574 02:30:03.120 --> 02:30:06.639 And right exactly at their move where He then kind 2575 02:30:06.680 --> 02:30:08.000 of fell back on, well, those. 2576 02:30:07.879 --> 02:30:10.920 Are created instantiations. 2577 02:30:09.920 --> 02:30:12.719 By which you right, right there, you're committing both those 2578 02:30:12.760 --> 02:30:19.399 fallacies simultaneously, because then God remains abstract and unknowable and rehified. 2579 02:30:19.920 --> 02:30:22.239 Therefore you're treating him as if he still has some 2580 02:30:22.399 --> 02:30:23.000 relation to this. 2581 02:30:23.000 --> 02:30:24.360 World, but you haven't shown how. 2582 02:30:25.120 --> 02:30:28.000 And then at the same time, you're also anthropomorphizing him 2583 02:30:28.120 --> 02:30:30.479 because now you just understand him along the lines of 2584 02:30:30.600 --> 02:30:31.399 created concept. 2585 02:30:31.639 --> 02:30:35.159 Yes, exactly. And this is this is basically what Palamos 2586 02:30:35.280 --> 02:30:37.680 is critiquing when he says, if you only know the 2587 02:30:37.719 --> 02:30:39.879 creative effects, then you never know the God behind the 2588 02:30:39.920 --> 02:30:43.239 created effects. There's an impenetrable veil that's never pierced. And 2589 02:30:43.360 --> 02:30:44.520 do we actually ever know God? 2590 02:30:45.440 --> 02:30:48.879 Yes, exactly, And right there you know again, I just 2591 02:30:49.000 --> 02:30:51.719 I don't see how you could avoid that too, And 2592 02:30:51.840 --> 02:30:54.000 this kind of led me and Father deacon An and 2593 02:30:54.040 --> 02:30:56.200 I skat and got into this too after after we 2594 02:30:56.280 --> 02:31:01.319 talked about this was noticing a conceptual sanction between the 2595 02:31:01.520 --> 02:31:04.680 essence and nature of God, which I find kind of 2596 02:31:04.920 --> 02:31:09.159 useful in explicating exactly how God can remain you know, 2597 02:31:09.319 --> 02:31:14.239 infinitely transcended but also relational within his nature, and so 2598 02:31:14.360 --> 02:31:16.639 we kind of got into that too. Obviously, I don't 2599 02:31:16.639 --> 02:31:17.920 want to take up a ton of your time, but 2600 02:31:18.280 --> 02:31:21.360 I just mainly wanted to bring up the reification anthromorphic thing. 2601 02:31:22.000 --> 02:31:24.760 See if you wanted if you saw that as valuable 2602 02:31:24.879 --> 02:31:26.879 moving forward in any debates or anything you. 2603 02:31:26.920 --> 02:31:30.639 Had with Roman Catholic, but you actually anticipated that's actually right. 2604 02:31:30.719 --> 02:31:32.520 I think you're right on the right track there. In fact, 2605 02:31:33.520 --> 02:31:35.239 as I was talking to Father Deacon on the way 2606 02:31:35.239 --> 02:31:37.360 to the debate, I was discussing like, if we had 2607 02:31:37.399 --> 02:31:40.799 gone in the direction of a histemology or tomistic of bistemology, 2608 02:31:41.360 --> 02:31:43.399 I was going to bring up some of these problems. 2609 02:31:44.600 --> 02:31:46.959 But I noticed when I got in there and we 2610 02:31:47.399 --> 02:31:50.680 sort of were chatting at the beginning, I just felt 2611 02:31:50.799 --> 02:31:56.479 like the best way to refute him, for the sake 2612 02:31:56.559 --> 02:31:59.319 of the audience as well, is to go to scripture 2613 02:31:59.360 --> 02:32:01.600 and to go to Vine revelation and focus on Theophanes 2614 02:32:02.120 --> 02:32:04.239 because number one, I knew that was the weakest part 2615 02:32:04.319 --> 02:32:09.760 for him. Number Two, epistemology discussions will get bogged down, 2616 02:32:09.799 --> 02:32:13.840 the audience will get lost, uh. And I just think 2617 02:32:13.879 --> 02:32:17.959 that people are going to easily resonate with Theophanies or 2618 02:32:17.959 --> 02:32:18.479 God in space,