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Speaker 1: Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah bla

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blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

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blah blah blah blah. Welcome everybody here, we go open

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for him. Welcome to Colin. The topics are the coke videos,

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cope for the Pope. I've not watched these. I watched

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a couple response videos from our boys, so I did

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see our buddy Alex Soren did a good video here

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responding to Joel Heshmeier. It's a forty minute video. If

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you want the full response, you can check it out

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right there. So I'll play a little bit of this one,

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but I think Brian has a much bigger channel. So

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let's hear what the arguments that we're hearing this time

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around from Brian Holdsworth are. And as you guys probably

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have noticed, you get a new round of why I'm

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not Orthodox videos from the pap apologists anytime there's a

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significant debate, loss, scandal, or challenge to their position. If

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you remember some years back, when we heard Francis doing

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all of his skittle stuff, we had to have Matt

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Frad and Holdsworth and everybody kind of go out and

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do the commiserating cope sessions that they do. Recently, we've

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had a bad few months of Roman Catholicism in terms

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of public debates, because we had the Trench Doherty breakdowns

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and crashouts on multiple debates where he screamed, yelled, cussed,

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threatened to fight, and all because he wanted to defend it,

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not just gay Catholics literally, but also to defend the

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idea that Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship quote unquote

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the same God, to defend the Vatican two texts. Now

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we've had the more recent three part four five hour

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debate between me and Tim Gordon, which seventy five percent

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of the audience agreed Tim Gordon lost. Tim Gordon himself

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conceded a couple things at the end of the debate.

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But now Tim's back on YouTube and on Twitter asking

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Chad Gpt to prove I'm not kidding that he actually

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won the debate somehow. What yeah, exactly? To me, that

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actually signifies their grasping of straws because they know they're

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not doing well. But now in their mind, this is

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actually proof that I lost the debate. Turns out even

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though Tim conceded the Philly Okoy section and after the

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debate privately conceded to me that I was actually correct

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about universal magisterium and he was misunderstanding it. No, actually

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that's all wrong. Turns out I lost all of the

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debate and the papist won. So we're not going to

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do a debate review because I don't need to do

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a debate review. We may do one for fun with

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David our hand. But somehow people think that debate reviews

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you do them when you lose. Debate reviews are just

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fun to do. It's an easy way to have more content.

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Doesn't necessarily mean you won't lost or want to do

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a review of the debate, because you can always discuss

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questions and topics that didn't get covered. Every debate I've

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ever done has multiple things that are brought up that,

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due to time limitations, actually don't get addressed. So it's

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just normal to try to address some of the things

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that didn't there wasn't time to get to. But uh,

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excuse me, my allergy is going crazy today. I want

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to note that people a Romecaloch's apear to not be

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aware that what the exercise of the keys is. They'll

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just say keys, keys, keys, keys, keys, and you ask,

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what are the keys and what does it signify? Well,

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it turns out in Roman Catholic theology they've actually already

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answered this question. If you deal any theological manual for

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Roman Catholics to explain what the keys. The office of

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the keys is. It's to preach the Gospel, to remit

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and retain sins, to exercise jurisdiction, and to there's one

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I'm forgetting, oh, offer the sacraments. That's the exercise of

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the keys. That's it. There's nothing beyond that in Roman

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Catha theology itself. And when we go to Matthew eighteen

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two chapters after the statement to Peter, Jesus says to

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the College of the Apostles, surely I say to you,

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whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.

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Whatever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven.

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And surely I say to you, if you agree two

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of you agree that my Father is there in agreement

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with you. Does this sound like autocracy? Why does he

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include two or more of you agree? That sounds like

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communal sinodle ecclesiology. So you notice they take Matthew sixteen

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out of the holistic context of the rest of the

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things that are said to the College of the Apostles,

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and you understand that Matthew eighteen eighteen is the exercising

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of the keys, and they say, no, no, it's only Peter

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in Matthew sixteen. But even in their own Catholic theology,

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the apostles have all of the same functions of the

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keys the way they define the keys. So then what

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is it that's supposedly unique. Well, but see Jesus gave

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it directly to Peter first. Yes, and that's because Peter

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is awarded this honor because he first confesses when the

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apostles are asked. Okay, so notice that I will give

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you the keys of the kingdom whatever you buy, whatever

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you lose, is said not just Peter two chapters later,

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to all of them, and it's Synodyl two chapters later.

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So what we should gather from this is that I

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don't take Matthew sixteen in a vacuum, excluding all of

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the other passages in the texts, in the rest of

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the New Testament, the rest of Matthew two chapters later.

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But notice that's exactly what Roman Callack has to do

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is to take these passages in a vacuum, ignore where

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it's said the same thing to the rest of the college,

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and then you ask them, what is it exactly that's

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here that Peter has that the others don't have. Oh well,

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actually turns out it's infallibility. Where is that? Oh well,

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that's your faith, never failing faith? Okay, but Peter's faith

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did fail three times, and that's why Jesus said feed

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my sheet three times. Where in any of that is

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indefectibility and infallibility? Where in Acts fifteen in the Jerusalem

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Council is any idea of infallibility and indefectibility. Now, one

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thing that's interesting that I've noticed from a lot of

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the Roman calics of late is there's a new angle

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they're trying. And this is particularly I guess, successful with

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paup apologists, because pap apologists are appealing.

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Speaker 2: To low information Catholic people, low information voters, people that

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it choosing. It's probably not for the best reasons, very

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low information, low tier converts. If I if I people

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a lot of people choosing based on low information, and.

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Speaker 1: That's what we would expect for pop apologists to do.

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Because they want the broadest appeal. We do very high

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tier stuff over here. I don't do the pop stuff.

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And that's why they've chosen since twenty eighteen to pretty

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much avoid what I do. And their excuse is he's mean. Now,

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if you go back to twenty eighteen, when all this

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really started popping off, Okay, Loton made a huge deal

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about how mean I was to what because of the

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original live stream with a Barra. I had asked to

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borrow many many times, over many many years to do

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a debate, and Eric said he would not do it,

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even though we had linked the exchanges on Facebook for

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hundreds and hundreds of comments for many many years. And

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I'm like, well, why won't you just do a debate

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and he said, well, it's got to be on a

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Catholic channel and all this kind of stuff, and I

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was just like, yeah, whatever, So there was no neutral ground.

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And then the reason that original debate happened, and they

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never tell you the full story, is they were doing

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a live stream saying that I would never debate I

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was too scared to debate a Borro, which was not

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the case. I simply asked that we do it on

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a specific topic. On this or that channel, and he

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didn't like the channels I suggested, and I said, I'll

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hop on right now and have this argument. When I

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got on there, I said, I want to talk about

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Vatican one Vatican two contradictions. That's the strongest arguments against

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the papers. It shows that obvious, easy contradictions right there.

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I don't want to talk about that. Let's talk about

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the historical evidences. Because this is their stick, is to

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go through the quote minds, pile up a bunch of

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quote minds and craft a narrative out of a growing

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seed doctrine that turns into a tree that by the eighth, ninth,

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and tenth centuries she's supposed to prove something, maybe like

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Vatican one. Well, I don't grant that the quote mind

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stacking them up proves anything, because as Eric admitted, if

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I recall in that debate, if you could show one

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dogmatic contradiction, then it would invalidate the system exactly. That's

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all that's ever been needed was one dogmatic contradiction. I

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guess what, there's many, there's not just one. And so

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what happened after that point was this sort of war

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that erupted between what was originally a UNI eight channel

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that had Orthodox and Eastern Catholics on to Lofton booting

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Craig Trulia, and then there was a huge bunch of

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arguments and drama, and then it turned into Lofton just

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kind of went crazy and was trying to get father

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Deacon to frocked and was calling people's churches just just

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crazy stuff. He sent me a lawsuit like he was

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gonna assume me for making fun of him. I'm not joking.

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I've got the emails still where he said he's going

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to sue me for making fun of him on the internet.

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And it just turned into a bunch of ridiculousness. And

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since that time, other pop apologists have emerged whose channels

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have grown significantly, like Matt Frad's, And although Matt has

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hosted UBI there, he's made it very clear because I

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guess because I impersonated him, I don't know what exactly

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it is. I made fun of his accident, I make

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fun of me. I do impersonations of everyone. Oh suddenly

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that's too mean, and then we don't enter act with him.

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He's too mean, which is all just super gay. Dude

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is so freaking gay. I don't care by the way,

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about interacting with him or not. But what they didn't

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learn in twenty eighteen was that it doesn't work to

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say he's mean. That's not going to keep people Roman Catholic.

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And we had waves of converts since then. Tens of

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thousands of people have become Orthodox since then. And now

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they're doing the same thing with the latest crop of

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pop apologists like Brian Holdsworth or like Joel what's his

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face or whoever. Now I'm not saying that specifically named

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me these people. I'm saying the tendency is to still

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say we're not going to interact with him because he's mean.

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And look how aggressive he was in the Tim Gordon debate. Now,

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in the Tim Gordon debate, people again Roman Catholics apparently

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don't know this. In cross examination, you can interrupt your opponent.

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We agreed to that. Tim and I both with Elijah

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before the debate, so their excuse of me interrupting is

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completely preposterous. Furthermore, Tim interrupted me just as much or

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more than I interrupted him during the cross examinations, and

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that was because he was getting really nervous and everybody

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could see that, and he floundered multiple times in every

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section of the debate. So why was I being aggressive

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Because I debate in an aggressive way and aggressive style

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always have that's just the style of the debate that

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I do. To cope that I'm mean is just preposterous,

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especially when they follow people online as their leaders who

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are ten times more mean than me and do all

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kinds of nasty activities in the background, and people like

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Loughton who did just absolutely nasty stuff in the background

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trying to keep give people fired from their jobs. I mean,

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they're nasty and they play like they're friendly upfront, but

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it's all afront, right, So that's why you can't. You

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gotta be you got to have a little bit of

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a thick skin to do this kind of stuff, and

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you can't listen to a lot of their whining and

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bitching too much. Now, the biggest elephant in the room

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is the actual arguments that have been made. Yes, I

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was doing blood Sports when it started. First debate we

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did was Adam Kokesh and that's still that was about

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ten years ago. The next debate that I did was

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Worski blood Sports against JF and you can still watch

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that debate on my livestream channel. So yeah, I mean,

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and it's not just because of blood sports. I come

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out of a philosophical background in Underground and grad school

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where we did debate. That was part of doing debate.

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I mean part of philosophy. Excuse me. We were doing

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public debaters, public debates with professors in my sophomore year

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of Underground. So that's just what I'm used to. That's

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the milieu that I come out of. I mean, to me,

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that's how guys are act, right. I mean, Tim and

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I went out after when I went out with his family,

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I took him out to eat afterwards. I bought him

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dinner because I'm a nice dude like that. So now

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when it comes to the issues, I will fiercely debate.

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But on a personal level, Tim and I get along great.

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We were talking about going and playing basketball. We spent

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like three hours at the restaurant just chatting it up.

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I still think he's completely wrong. He's making huge mistakes

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on his Twitter. I mean, it looks silly to me,

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but I still like Tim on a personal level. He's

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a good dude. Now let's get to the issues. Because

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the only reason I bring that up is, like, do

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you understand Tim's not acting like a massive Skittles bag

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like most of you people are. How come Tim can

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handle all this. He's not upset, crying and whining about

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how many I am because he's a normal, high testosterone dude.

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That's how dudes are. Dudes can handle this. A lot

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of you guys are whoosies.

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Speaker 3: Dude.

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Speaker 1: You guys are freaking weak. You can't handle it. And

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that's why the whole point I'm telling you this is

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that's not gonna keep people Roman Catholic. None of that

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is gonna work. Lofton tried it in twenty eighteen to

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talk about endlessly how mean I was, how much of

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a bad person. None of that works because at the

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end of the day, people that really care are going

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to make the decisions based on who has the better arguments.

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Which position's true. You can do all this drama all

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day long, but do you understand that even if you

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did a bunch of drama, and you kept a bunch

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of people in your camp based on drama, do you

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understand that that's actually a negative, a net negative for

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you in the long run, because the people that you're

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keeping are low information converts, low tier people that are

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gonna convert the first time they encounter some significant challenge

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to the position. So you would be better off actually

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addressing the arguments than acting like the way to solve

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these disputes is to talk about how bad somebody is,

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how mean they are, the fat jokes they make about Abora.

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I'm sorry, it's too easy to make fat jokes about Abara.

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And they're funny too. Everybody thinks. Everybody knows they're funny.

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They everybody admits they're funny. It's not my fault that

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Abora ended up being a gigantic vagina about all this,

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and Tim hasn't been a giant vagina. Tim has been

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super cool about it, even though we totally disagree. Notice

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the difference of the attitude and the actions of Tim

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versus giant vaginas like Abora totally night and day. Now,

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let's get to the issues, because that's really what matters,

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and all of this other stuff is just smoking mirror deflection.

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Let's listen. Know what Brian Holdsworth argues, I don't think

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I'm gonna hear anything. It's very very high quality. Joshua

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Finch can't remember. J B Pilti a five month members

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what's up? Troy orthodox ten dollars. What do you think

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about Mark Dice? You know, I haven't kept up with

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Mark Dice in a while. It seemed like he kind

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of transitioned into just kind of doing a lot of

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the daily news politics commentary stuff, which I think is

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super boring. His content is similar with you in terms

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of geopolitics. I didn't know you even covered geopolitics. I

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know you covered, like you know, kind of media stuff,

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but I don't think he really does interviews. But I

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would definitely have a conversation with him if you wanted to,

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if you want to reach out or tell him. Now,

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let's have a conversation with Troy. Thedox became a member

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of five month membership Gorilla Biscuits membership. What's up? Christopher Scott?

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Five dollars, Thank you so much, Derek. Five dollars. Since

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Andrew doesn't do invasions when normal people are awake, I

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will give you this gift. Thank you, Derek. Hushtones five dollars.

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Here we go, Baptism, PSA, diet, calendar, jurisdiction. J will

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you be my spiritual father? JJJJJJJ Yeah, he does. What

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to expect on open Calls Day. Now again the topics

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are pretty broad today. I don't care what you want

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to talk about. I'm specifically right now addressing these Roman

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Catholic cope responds videos because it sort of stirs up

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the questions, and I think they actually think that they'll

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just placate people with these kind of easy answers. In fact,

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there's a new Roman Catholic response that I'm seeing going around.

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They kind of try out these new arguments every few months.

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The latest argument cope is, oh, God wouldn't expect us

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to learn all this theology, and He's made it easy,

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and thus the papacy. Now, isn't that interesting. That's exact

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argument that Daniel Hoikikachu made to me when we were

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debating the last time we had her debate. God would

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not make it difficult, and so therefore the position that's

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the most simple must be true. And since Islam has

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the most simple shahada, God is one all as one,

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et cetera, boom, it's true. Now, no Roman Catholic would

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agree with that. No, no, no, no, you say that's

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a it's actually a fallacy. By the way, So notice

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that we're not even concerned with what are fallacious lines

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of reasoning every Roman Catholic that eventually spends years doing

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apologetics has actually spent countless hours responding to, for example,

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Protestant objections. Now, wait a minute, I thought it was easy.

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Why are we having to actually go into all of

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these specific textual objections of Matthew sixteen? And what does

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the you know, the actual letter of Pope Agatho mean,

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does it actually teach the Vatican One model of the papacy?

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And you know what about Leo? You know, Peter spoke

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through Leo a chalcidon And then you actually have to

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explain the context when you're actually a debating's money knows

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the history of the church, like you understand that as

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time goes by, the Jesus made it easy. Argument doesn't work.

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And let's say orthodox as Alex Warren pointed out in

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his video, let's say orthodoxy false. How do I know

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between Roman Catholicism, Protestantism and Oriental Orthodoxy which one's true?

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Without getting into the intellectual heavy issues. Is there some

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sort of self evidence? It's just gonna well, just the pope,

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he's there, Look, there's a pope. It just makes it

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it's self eviden it's true. In other words, it's a

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silly argument for an apologist to make that the position

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is true, which is the one that's the easiest and

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the simplest. Why can't buy that line of argument? Why

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kind of Protestant just say this, man, my Bible, that's simple.

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This is just ridiculous. I mean, this is the level

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of argumentation that we're at with this stuff. It's just like,

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this is so silly. Hey, Jamie, could you make me

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a coffee? Thank you? Hush tones five dollars. This one

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is strictly for Saint Basil the Great. The Acubian brothers

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must the Cuban Yeah, Kubian brothers, that's right, apple sy

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ten dollars. If Jesus gave Peter the keys, how could

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Peter give keys to the other apostles. Well, that's the

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thing is I've pointed out in the text he doesn't

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do that. If we had the papal model at work,

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Jesus would give Peter the keys, breathe on Peter, Pentecosts,

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the Holy Spirit would come on Peter, and then Peter

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would transmit that to the rest of the college. Is

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that what happened, No, that would happened. In fact, it's

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the opposite right, Jesus says it to Peter, and he

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says it to the rest of them two chapters later,

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and the Holy Spirit Jesus breathes on all of them

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and says, whoever sends you, they're remitted. Whoever sends you

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retten they retained. He sends aly Spirit on all of them.

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It doesn't go to Peter and then to everyone else.

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So exactly if Peter gave Peter the if Jesus got

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Peter the keys, then he would have to give it

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to all them. Yeah, did he go to Walmart and

359
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make copies for each of them? That's actually pretty funny.

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Eight in eighty two pounds, I got married to my

361
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funk o pop whoe aaaaaa killer one hundred foreign currencies.

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When are you going to show us your labuobu collection? Well,

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Sam Hid just put out a La Boobuo video, so

364
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you can check that out because I donated all of

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my lab boo boos to Sam in age two dollars.

366
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Did Gina become Orthodox? And does Mike hate her? Now?

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So Gina and Mike who had that podcast a while

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back that had me on, and they're the ones that

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hosted the debate between me and doctor Easley the Baptist

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and Dave Gordon. Tim Gordon's brother, Gina did become Orthodox,

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Mike went tradcat Roman Catholic. I've keep trying to get

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Mike to call in and have a debate because he

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got salty with me over blocking him. But I blocked

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him because he just kept just saying bad arguments that

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when it come to debate. So I don't think he

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hates Gina. I've not heard anything like that, but I

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do know that they don't do a podcast together. Justin

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two dollars? Should cornbread be made with corn meal? Bro,

379
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I'm trying to stay in Katosi's dog. I don't know

380
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nothing about no corn meal. That's that's where all the

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plebes do. That's a pleb diet. Jack the guitar got

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twenty dollars? What about the keys? Jay? What about the keys?

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It's weird that, you know, if you go back to

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the Nick debates eight years ago, what did he fall

385
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back on the keys? The keys? The keys? Fast forward

386
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,200
to the Tim Gordon debate? What do he fall back on?

387
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The keys? The keys? The keys? There's actually one of

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the medieval Orthodox saints actually makes fun of this too, says,

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anytime you argue with the Roman Catholic, they jingle the keys.

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So Orthodox has been making this joke for literally like

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a thousand years. Franke Smelkoite two dollars. The most learning

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thing about the Shameless Popery video, this is the Joel

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00:23:35,559 --> 00:23:38,920
Heshmeyer video, is that he says Catholic and Orthodox both

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revere acumenical councils. However, Rome is in communion with the

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stories and monophic sites. Now, yeah, exactly, and uh, what

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was voice of reason?

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Speaker 4: So the culture of Mephages, we don't know, Midiam, mistake

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00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:54,359
because you did not allow for me to do texting

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to girls with pro booties. I'd like a bunch of

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00:23:56,799 --> 00:23:59,640
booty right now. The culture of Meverages made a mistake.

401
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,839
Speaker 1: So you the idiots listen to this idiot saying that

402
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,920
the Council of Emphysis made a mistake. How about the

403
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,279
curse of ephesis? Maybe he fell under the curse of emphasis.

404
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Suko five dollars. If romccalek's declare Peter is infallible, then

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was Peter correct and separate himself from the gentiles in

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Galatians too? Well, they're just going to say that Peter

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made a moral mistake. So they're going to say that

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infallibility only protects his teaching on faith and morals. It

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doesn't cover his personal sins or errors, which would be impeccability.

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So that's what they're gonna say. But that's why it's

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important to specifically find the doctrinal and dogmatic contradictions. Liked

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the example that we saw with unum sanctam and the

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papal temporal supremacy doctrine. That's why it was so important

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to find a dogmatic contradiction and hammer that home. And

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you saw he had no answer. Where was this in

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the first thousand years? Wouldn't there it evolved? Oh okay,

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it evolved to it, and then it evolved away from

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it after Vatican two. So does that mean that cathy

419
00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:10,039
theology could also evolve away from the papacy? That's so

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stupid me and you g two dollars. Jay is not mean.

421
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,599
He's just an RN a registered nurse or retarded now

422
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,680
retard nation. I don't know what URN stands for, Mark

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medic five dollars. Do you think that the keys just

424
00:25:24,759 --> 00:25:28,480
keep talking about guys are the ones that start the popemobile?

425
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Maybe it's always a reference to the popemobile. That's what

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the keys are about. Or is it the keys to

427
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the papal dungeon where the human sacrifice happens. I don't know, sir,

428
00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:42,519
Jeff cost us five dollars. My pants are sized thirty

429
00:25:42,559 --> 00:25:44,759
thirty two. That's funny. That's a reference to our joke

430
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,440
a couple of weeks ago. Coolbera cout of two dollars.

431
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:54,920
What about the keys to your heart? Jamie holds those? Oh,

432
00:25:55,279 --> 00:26:00,400
it's sure as heck. Ain't no skills, pope. Or let's

433
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,359
see what Brian What Brian Gon'll serve up to us

434
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:03,799
right here.

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Speaker 3: My experience of doing this kind of work, whenever I

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00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:09,839
say anything that calls for reform in the church, you know,

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the kind of thing that like a reformer would do

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out of love for the church, I inevitably every time

439
00:26:15,839 --> 00:26:18,440
receive replies from people saying, this is why you should

440
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,839
become Orthodox, even going so far as to claim that

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Orthodoxy is actually immune to some of the faults that

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00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,400
I cite, which, on the one hand, if people do

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00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,720
this kind of thing because they sincerely want to help

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a fellow Christian come to a fuller communion with God

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and receive all the graces that.

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Speaker 1: Notice that from the outset, it's all assuming the ecumenist

447
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Roman Catholic Vatican two model that we're all in Christ,

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We're all a giant, divided church, and some of us

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are seventy five percent in commune with Christ, others are

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twenty percent in commune with Christ. This is all the

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Vatican to a humanist model, which we from the outset reject.

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Speaker 3: It can to help them on their way, hopefully to Heaven,

453
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then that's great. I'm blessed by that, but it is

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a weird way to expect want to respond favorably to

455
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that kind of an invitation becauseck.

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00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 1: Okay, but I mean, how do Roman Catholics act on online?

457
00:27:11,759 --> 00:27:14,720
Like ninety percent of the apologetic is just spamming submit

458
00:27:14,759 --> 00:27:18,519
to Rome. Peter has the keys, so tip for tat

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on this.

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Speaker 3: One, recognizing that there are opportunities, by.

461
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Speaker 1: The way, and I actually agree with what he's saying

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that the Orthodox are telling him, like the Orthodox Church

463
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is immune because one thing that they don't understand that

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I think should be reiterated. I talked about this on

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my Twitter today is that they don't understand that we

466
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have a decentralized church. Allow me to read my tweet

467
00:27:37,519 --> 00:27:39,519
and maybe this will help clear things up. I said

468
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:43,079
that I think people in the Roman Catholic sphere, when

469
00:27:43,079 --> 00:27:47,759
they see our argumentation and our line of reasoning, they

470
00:27:47,839 --> 00:27:51,480
kind of copy paste onto our system their autocratic top

471
00:27:51,519 --> 00:27:55,160
down model. So they see things in the Orthodox Church

472
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,920
that they think don't make any sense because it's not

473
00:27:58,079 --> 00:28:02,039
the papal model. For example, how come the pentarchy doesn't

474
00:28:02,079 --> 00:28:06,920
just tell everybody what's infallibly true? How Bartholomew doesn't just

475
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,359
solve the issues. The major issue that is at the

476
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,559
root of ninety percent of Romanical Orthodox debates that's missed

477
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,880
is that Orthodox ecclesiology is fundamentally decentralized. This is what

478
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,960
they have a really hard time understanding. So they just

479
00:28:20,039 --> 00:28:24,720
assume that Jesus established a autocratic hierarchy, a top down system,

480
00:28:25,079 --> 00:28:27,440
and anything that doesn't have the top down system is

481
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,440
in some way flawed or doomed or something like that. However,

482
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,799
we actually think that this is a feature of this

483
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,640
system and not a bug. In fact, the church was

484
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,599
always decentralized. It was always sonodal as a fanthropic organism.

485
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:51,440
It's not a juridical CEO style corporation. They think of

486
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,240
it like a giant corporation with a super powerful CEO,

487
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,799
and the cardinals are something like a corporate board or something,

488
00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:03,480
but the CEO has the final say. That is not

489
00:29:03,559 --> 00:29:06,119
what we think Christ set up. We think he set

490
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:11,359
up a synodal model and it was always decentralized. Now

491
00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:13,920
when they hear this, this is their mind smelt. They

492
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,319
can't fathom that Jesus would dare to set up a

493
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,759
decentralized church. Now, I didn't say democracy, I said decentralized.

494
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,319
But for the Orthodox Church, especially if you read a

495
00:29:24,359 --> 00:29:27,160
book like Church Papacy Schism by doctor Phil Cherard, he

496
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,200
points out that there's nothing lacking in the local church.

497
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,160
Every local church has the fullness of Catholicity because the

498
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,279
bishop has the fullness of the faith and the sacraments

499
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,519
at the local level. Thus there's nothing lacking in local

500
00:29:40,599 --> 00:29:44,039
churches that Rome has a double dose of. Okay, there's

501
00:29:44,079 --> 00:29:48,920
no double anointing like Elijah to Elisha that exists in

502
00:29:49,039 --> 00:29:52,000
Rome that the rest of the bishops don't have or lack.

503
00:29:52,559 --> 00:29:55,160
But especially if you read Church Papacy Schism, you'll notice

504
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,200
he gets into the chapter where in the Late Middle

505
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,519
Ages the Latin Church develop what they call a juridical

506
00:29:59,559 --> 00:30:03,640
body distinct from the mystical body. This is a principal

507
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,400
Nestorian heresy applied to ecclesiology that you could actually trace

508
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,880
as the papacy comes to geopolitical world power, and doctor

509
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,559
Scharard' is one of the best on that his chapter

510
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,039
is excellent. It's never been really, I don't think significantly addressed.

511
00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:21,920
Roman Calocs are ignorant of it. They don't even know

512
00:30:22,039 --> 00:30:24,200
or understand what we're talking about. They simply assume that

513
00:30:25,519 --> 00:30:29,799
there was always this juridical institutional papacy like a corporation,

514
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,680
and then when you go to the places in church

515
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,920
history where it didn't exist, suddenly it was a thing

516
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:39,880
in potentia being developed. Even though Satis Cognitum says there's

517
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,759
not a development, it was always understood to be the

518
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:46,559
case that this is the Vatican One definition and extent

519
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,279
in jurisdiction and indefectibility of the papacy was always there.

520
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,319
But magically it becomes a developing thing when there's a problem. Now,

521
00:30:54,359 --> 00:30:59,000
why are they retreating to look? God doesn't expect us

522
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,960
to become phdsds precisely because they don't have answers to

523
00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:08,000
these very challenging problems. And this is an interesting new

524
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,240
approach because it's almost a concession. It's kind of like

525
00:31:11,319 --> 00:31:16,759
a last ditch effort of exasperation before you're ready to

526
00:31:16,799 --> 00:31:20,559
give up, because you're throwing your hands up. Intellectually you're saying, look,

527
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:24,519
I don't know, okay, it can't be this hard, okay.

528
00:31:24,559 --> 00:31:26,759
So it's a sign of frustration. It's not actually an

529
00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:30,480
argument to say, look, you got all these problems in

530
00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:33,480
church history. I don't care. I don't care. Guess what,

531
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,160
hand waving the problems of the contradition of the church

532
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,279
history is not gonna make them go away. They're going

533
00:31:38,279 --> 00:31:40,680
to keep eating at your head and at your conscience,

534
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,960
in your mind like a mind virus. And I know

535
00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:47,039
because they did it to me when I was a

536
00:31:47,119 --> 00:31:50,200
Roman Catholic trad cat and I heard these challenges. Don't

537
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,480
you think I went through all of the same stages

538
00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:58,559
of grief? Of course I've done all this, all this stuff,

539
00:31:58,599 --> 00:32:02,519
Tim was saying, I've heard it. I said it back

540
00:32:02,559 --> 00:32:09,839
when I was in my twenties. But none of those

541
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,839
things are going to answer and solve and give you

542
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,559
the peace that you're actually looking for. You're never going

543
00:32:16,599 --> 00:32:18,559
to have peace in the Roman Catholic world. It's a

544
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,079
religion of dead works that doesn't have the Holy Spirit

545
00:32:23,599 --> 00:32:27,839
peace that you're actually after. You're always going to be restless,

546
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,240
You're always going to be wondering because the whole thing

547
00:32:30,279 --> 00:32:36,119
is structured like some kind of weird corporate blockchain transactional system. Anyway,

548
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,960
it's crazy, and I mean, you still believe the doctrine

549
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,119
of the Treasury of the merits of the Saints, which

550
00:32:43,119 --> 00:32:45,680
is absolutely insane. I mean that one alone should really

551
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,880
refute all the Roman Catholicism, and I think they actually

552
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,720
downplay it because it's such a ridiculous dogma. It's still

553
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,359
in the books, it's still a dogma. But do we

554
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,440
hear Roman Catholics defending this very much? I mean, last

555
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,440
one I remember defending this was Scott hand like maybe

556
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:03,680
fifteen years ago.

557
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,799
Speaker 3: For the church to reform is a terrible reason to

558
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,960
abandon the particular church that you belong to. It would

559
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,279
be like trying to address issues in your marriage only.

560
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,079
Speaker 1: To Yeah, but we're not saying that it's merely corruption

561
00:33:17,599 --> 00:33:20,799
or something like that. All right, we're talking about specific

562
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:27,960
dogmatic contradictions and dangerous teachings. That's way different than trying

563
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,480
to paint a narrative that what we're outlining and highlighting

564
00:33:31,559 --> 00:33:34,599
is merely corruption or problems with the church and we

565
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,240
need to reform it. No, no, no, it's not a matter

566
00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:39,880
of reform. It's a matter of contradiction.

567
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 3: I have someone like like I don't know your marriage

568
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,119
counselor say you should just leave and maybe Mary Susie instead.

569
00:33:46,359 --> 00:33:48,519
I bet she won't cause you these kinds of troubles.

570
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,240
Or in recognizing that there is a need to fix

571
00:33:51,319 --> 00:33:55,200
issues in your nation or your city, using that as

572
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,880
a cause is simply abandoned ship instead of helping to

573
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,799
improve the place that you already belong to. Bearing in

574
00:34:00,839 --> 00:34:02,440
mind that patriotism is a.

575
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 1: Virtue, yeah, hold on now, Patriotism is a doctrine of

576
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:14,599
civil life and civil existence. And patriotism has limitations. How

577
00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:17,519
much more are the limitations in the in the spiritual sphere?

578
00:34:17,599 --> 00:34:20,280
All these things, So all of these are bogus analogies

579
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,800
that he's making to you know, Oh, look, just don't

580
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,239
jump ship, because you got to be faithful to your marriage. Well,

581
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,599
unless you made a mistake, right unless unless it's just

582
00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:31,719
simply not the true church.

583
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,159
Speaker 3: Need for reform or growth is a terrible reason to

584
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,840
abandon your commitments. That's just cowardlessness and betrayal.

585
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: Cowardessness isn't a word, Brian.

586
00:34:43,079 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 3: And in the case of the church, you should only

587
00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:51,119
leave if you detect some fatal error to that particular ecclesiology.

588
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 1: And assuming yes, there we go, that's exactly what I'm

589
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,039
looking for, and that's exactly what we're.

590
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,519
Speaker 3: Arguing that you found in an alternative, that is in

591
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,559
an actual solution to the dilemmas that you're facing. And

592
00:35:05,199 --> 00:35:06,960
if you're on the other side of that saying hey,

593
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,280
you should come join us, I don't think you should

594
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,559
want to Inherit converts on those terms in the same

595
00:35:12,599 --> 00:35:15,000
way that you shouldn't want to accept like a marriage

596
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,199
proposal from someone who has just abandoned his wife because

597
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,079
he didn't want to work on the perfectly reasonable challenges

598
00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:22,519
that existed in his marriage.

599
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I agree with that that I don't think

600
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,559
most people are calling for converts for bad reasons. We're

601
00:35:28,599 --> 00:35:33,320
pointing out that these are significant contradictions in the ram

602
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,320
mecallity paople system and we have the answers. But anyone

603
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,519
who comes to Orthodoxy, and I don't think Brian knows

604
00:35:39,559 --> 00:35:42,280
this most of the time, you're not gonna immediately be

605
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,079
a convert. It's not easy. This is not some Baptist

606
00:35:46,159 --> 00:35:49,119
church where you walk down the aisle and say the

607
00:35:49,159 --> 00:35:51,679
Sinner's prayer and Billy Graham gives you coke and pizza.

608
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,719
Comb Donald Alta will give a hot pizza. We've got

609
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,480
donuts too, Hill. If you'll say the sons probab, I'll

610
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,719
give you a pizza, maybe a little bossyleicle, trustycleo, row home,

611
00:36:01,159 --> 00:36:03,360
just good it up to Jesus and I'll give it

612
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:08,280
hot Hilza. This says not that you're talking six months

613
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,239
to three years catechumen it to become Orthodox, even if

614
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,320
you were Roman Catholic. So I don't think he understands that. No, no,

615
00:36:15,679 --> 00:36:18,000
you don't get any ease. Now. You could probably find

616
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,639
some Orthodox church that will immediately receive you somewhere if

617
00:36:20,639 --> 00:36:23,760
you like shop around or something, but typically speaking, that's

618
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:24,679
not our ethos.

619
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,159
Speaker 3: That's the last kind of person you should want to marry.

620
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,679
Someone who's already shown themselves to be fragile and disloyal

621
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:37,280
in their commitments. But nonetheless, that constant influx of invitations

622
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,840
does often give me pause to reflect and revisit the

623
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,679
question why did I become Catholic instead of Orthodox? And

624
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,199
now that I've matured enough in my affiliation as a

625
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,679
Catholic that it's warts and its blemishes aren't invisible to

626
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,400
me anymore, why would I remain Catholic instead of becoming Orthodox?

627
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,480
Because the opportunity is always available. So to answer that,

628
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,239
let me contrast a few areas where the claims of orthodoxy.

629
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: Okay, come on, get to the point.

630
00:37:05,199 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 3: Okay, So the first challenge I have is on the

631
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,880
question of the papacy and authority. Prior to the more

632
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,039
formal schism of the East and the West, everyone recognized

633
00:37:14,079 --> 00:37:16,480
that Saint Peter had a unique position in the church

634
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:20,199
as the leader of the apostles, including Eastern Church fathers,

635
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,559
Saint John, Chris Astom Freak coach.

636
00:37:22,599 --> 00:37:24,559
Speaker 1: So this is what we always hear as the sort

637
00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:27,559
of first point that they go to, and I think

638
00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:29,679
a lot of these Roman Catholics are actually just surprised

639
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,079
when they hear that Orthodox don't deny that Peter had

640
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,360
an apostle ship, that set up a bishopric and a succession. Okay,

641
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,159
everybody knows that. Everybody agrees that what we have is

642
00:37:41,199 --> 00:37:44,840
to rival accounts of the first thousand years, Right, So

643
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,159
what happens? And I've been through this for twenty years

644
00:37:50,079 --> 00:37:53,280
almost now, at least fifteen, maybe seventeen years, looking at

645
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,159
this issue, getting into these debates, debating Roman Catholics on

646
00:37:56,199 --> 00:37:59,639
this point, being a Roman Catholic. Formerly, what's always going

647
00:37:59,679 --> 00:38:05,239
on here is there's two stories, two narratives explaining the

648
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:10,800
first thousand years. The Roman Catholic narrative alternates between assuming

649
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,559
that the Vatican One model of the papacy was always

650
00:38:14,559 --> 00:38:18,239
there and clear, and then it vacillates over to it

651
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,519
was in potential and developing when there's problems. So it

652
00:38:21,599 --> 00:38:26,519
vacillates between these two narrative contradictory explanations to make that

653
00:38:26,599 --> 00:38:29,199
thing work. And a lot of times what they do

654
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,119
is they pick a strong statement of the papacy, say

655
00:38:33,159 --> 00:38:36,159
in the eight hundreds, that we would agree is a

656
00:38:36,159 --> 00:38:40,760
strong statement that has evolved to that point. Okay, but

657
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,719
they think that because it's within the first thousand years

658
00:38:44,199 --> 00:38:46,800
and the pope makes a strong statement late in the game,

659
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,480
that must be a definitive proof for their system. The

660
00:38:50,559 --> 00:38:53,880
other thing that they do is they assume that the wording,

661
00:38:54,039 --> 00:38:57,920
the language, the flowery language that's used oftentimes for many

662
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:03,559
bishops somehow is like kind of loosely akin to what

663
00:39:03,679 --> 00:39:07,760
Vatican One eventually says. Both of these are non sequitors,

664
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,440
and both of them can be explained by two different

665
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,480
rival paradigms. I'm not saying their position is true anymore

666
00:39:15,519 --> 00:39:17,920
than I'm saying my position is true, because it has

667
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,000
a narrative explanation. Right, So this is I mean, this

668
00:39:22,079 --> 00:39:25,320
is exactly what we'd expect people who are evidentialists in

669
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,039
their apologetic to try to do. Stack up a bunch

670
00:39:29,079 --> 00:39:32,039
of quote lines and doesn't that kind of tilt the

671
00:39:32,079 --> 00:39:36,480
scales over to papacy. That's how they approach all these questions. Now,

672
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:41,119
I've consistently argued against this evidential is apologetic this entire time,

673
00:39:41,599 --> 00:39:44,280
because this is another part of the problem. You don't

674
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,039
actually solve this question, just like in philosophy it's called

675
00:39:48,119 --> 00:39:51,800
underdetermination of data thesis. You don't actually solve this question

676
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:56,719
when you've got data that can be explained significantly and

677
00:39:57,079 --> 00:40:01,840
in a good way by two rival paradigms. And this

678
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,559
is what they don't understand because they don't understand paradigm thinking.

679
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,920
Everything for them is like one layer and piling up evidences.

680
00:40:10,519 --> 00:40:14,119
I'm looking at it from two rival paradigms and systems

681
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,599
and which ones are coherent and not tim That doesn't

682
00:40:17,599 --> 00:40:20,360
make me a coherence theorist as if I'm some sort

683
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,559
of secular epistemology person. I'm just talking about coherence, not

684
00:40:24,639 --> 00:40:29,119
coherence theory, just like if I talked about empiricism or

685
00:40:29,159 --> 00:40:32,280
empirical data, that doesn't make me an empiricist of the

686
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,679
school of empiricists. So I've got to make some of

687
00:40:34,679 --> 00:40:38,440
these distinctions because these people get very confused over basic

688
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:42,000
ideas and word concept fallacies. So when Brian pulls out

689
00:40:42,039 --> 00:40:46,960
various quotes or pastors or whatever, the assumption is that

690
00:40:47,039 --> 00:40:50,840
you can read iogetically into that the second millennium of

691
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,159
Roman Catholic developments and as Orthodox we have been calling

692
00:40:54,199 --> 00:40:59,039
this out and critiquing that forever does it. Do they

693
00:40:59,039 --> 00:41:01,480
hear this? No, it just goes right over their head.

694
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,800
They don't ever hear what our responses are. And I

695
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,199
would say too that if you want the specifics, Alex

696
00:41:08,199 --> 00:41:10,840
did a really good video Alex Soren here responding to

697
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,920
Joel Heshmeier on the specifics. So Joel mentions a bunch

698
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,239
of what he thinks are papal proofs, and actually all

699
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,119
three of his three were actually not papal proofs at all.

700
00:41:21,159 --> 00:41:24,199
They actually proved the opposite, particularly with Saint Cyprian being

701
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:30,039
someone who went against Rome. So obviously his quotes about Peter,

702
00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:33,880
which Roman Catholx's assum is about all of Christendom. No

703
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,960
Cyprian says all bishops are Peter, and Cyprian had no

704
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,760
problem going again, it'st Pope Saint Stephen. Now we believe

705
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,920
that that Pope Stephen was ultimately correct and Cyprian was

706
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:49,079
wrong in the conflict. But what it shows, just like

707
00:41:49,159 --> 00:41:53,480
with Saint Aeronais, is that their statements about Rome do

708
00:41:53,639 --> 00:41:57,960
not come with an unqualified autocratic authority. Because both aaron

709
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:04,039
Ais and Cyprian opposed Rome very significantly, and as did

710
00:42:04,079 --> 00:42:06,800
Saint Augustine. They always leave out the fact that Augustine,

711
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,360
in that letter where he talks about Rome, goes on

712
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,559
to say, perhaps the bishops of Rome also could make

713
00:42:12,599 --> 00:42:15,239
significant errors, and thus we could leave it up to

714
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,719
a universal council clear as day, Augustine is saying that

715
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:23,400
ecumenical councils or synods are above one Bishop of Rome.

716
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,840
And in both cases of Cyprian and Augustine, they were

717
00:42:28,079 --> 00:42:32,679
resenting the fact that African bishops were having the Roman

718
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,679
bishop speak to and step over their jurisdictions because nobody

719
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:41,599
believed that Peter, because he was the mouthpiece, somehow suddenly

720
00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:46,320
had universal jurisdiction. That's why the chi eighty document admits

721
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:51,400
that they didn't have or that there was no universal

722
00:42:51,679 --> 00:42:55,239
jurisdiction of Rome in the first millennium. What is paragraph

723
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,800
nineteen of the chiady document from Rome say appeals to

724
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,840
the Bishop of Rome from the east expressed the community

725
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,960
of the church, Bob, the Bishop of Rome did not

726
00:43:04,079 --> 00:43:08,639
exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East. That's

727
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:09,440
the Vatican.

728
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 3: He could only refers to Peter as the chief of

729
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,000
the apostles. Saint Basil the Great refers to Peter as

730
00:43:18,039 --> 00:43:20,440
the foremost of the apostles along with thee.

731
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 1: So notice chief foremost. This is supposedly somehow translating into

732
00:43:24,519 --> 00:43:30,119
Vatican one. It's just non sequiturs. And this is the problem.

733
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,360
And look, I made the same mistake. When I was

734
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,199
in my twenties, I fell for the low tier pop

735
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,719
apologetic quote minds. This is partly why I left Protestantism

736
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,159
for rome Caanthosism. I thought, without context that all these

737
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,239
quotes piled up proved the papacy. However, when I converted,

738
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,840
guess what, I hadn't read Vatican One. I didn't know

739
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,840
what Vatican On actually said. I didn't know the nitty

740
00:43:54,840 --> 00:44:04,559
gritty details of the specific controversies. But there's no other

741
00:44:04,599 --> 00:44:06,599
way around it. You have to get into the details

742
00:44:06,639 --> 00:44:09,800
of these things. Otherwise we're no different than I mean,

743
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:11,760
what does a Roman Calvic say to an Aran when

744
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,320
an Aran says, well, Jesus says the Father's greater? Well, no,

745
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,599
wait a minute, do I need the context or could

746
00:44:19,639 --> 00:44:22,239
I just appeal to simplicity because an Aran could say

747
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,320
like the like the Muslims do. Look, the Trinity is complex.

748
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,679
Why not just say it's simple, It's a Unitarian deity.

749
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,679
This is literally what Arians and Muslims say. Now does

750
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:37,159
any Roman Calvic appeal to quote simplicity and pragmatism for that?

751
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,199
Speaker 3: Of course, not Cyril of Jerusalem, who also refers to

752
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,760
him as the chief and simultaneously.

753
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,079
Speaker 1: Yeah. But Basil, for example, in his letters, says the

754
00:44:46,119 --> 00:44:48,239
same thing about the Bishop of Antioch. He is the

755
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,519
head to whom all the body of the Church receives

756
00:44:50,519 --> 00:44:54,559
its sustenance and guidance. Oh really, does that mean he's

757
00:44:54,559 --> 00:45:00,440
the Pope? No? Well then, so what does that mean? Well,

758
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,320
flowery language doesn't really get you anywhere. And that's exactly

759
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,000
what the Ibarra and Ubi debates have shown. Right. Ibarra

760
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,760
relied heavily on this flowery, strong language. And then when

761
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,920
you point out the same language being used of other

762
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,639
bishops and the Emperor, well, suddenly that those don't count.

763
00:45:16,679 --> 00:45:18,480
Now that one doesn't count. It only counts when it's

764
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:19,159
about Peter, you say.

765
00:45:19,159 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 3: See, there's little room for doubt that the Bishop of

766
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:25,239
Rome was widely recognized as the successor of Peter, with

767
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,840
people like Maximis the Confessor.

768
00:45:28,519 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, but does he not realize that Antioch and Alexandria

769
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,400
are also the admitted successors of Peter. So what they

770
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,039
have to then prove is that where does the special

771
00:45:38,079 --> 00:45:42,159
prerogatives and privileges of the descent of Peter in Rome

772
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:47,360
come from? Oh? Guess where that comes from? Tradition what tradition?

773
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,840
Where is this? Where do we prove the tradition? Oh well,

774
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,119
you see Peter died in Rome. Oh so dying in

775
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:59,679
Rome is what grants indefectibility and infallibility. Where is that?

776
00:46:00,199 --> 00:46:04,719
Where does that come from? What's tradition? Notice this ridiculous circle.

777
00:46:05,039 --> 00:46:08,119
Speaker 3: When his twelfth Epistle says that the Roman Church has

778
00:46:08,159 --> 00:46:12,360
received the universal and supreme dominion, authority and power of

779
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,440
binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God.

780
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: But Maximus is the same person who also said I

781
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,320
will go against any number or authority in the Church

782
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,239
if they abandon the faith. And so he actually qualifies

783
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,559
this statement and says that what makes them authoritative is

784
00:46:30,599 --> 00:46:34,159
their orthodoxy. They're not orthodox because they're an authority. They're

785
00:46:34,159 --> 00:46:37,440
an authority because they're Orthodox, and if they lose that orthodoxy,

786
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,800
they lose that authority. So even Maximus's quote is qualified

787
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,599
by Maximus to even say that I would be amongst

788
00:46:43,639 --> 00:46:47,880
the small band of true Catholics rather than being against

789
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,760
the largest number of those who affirm heresies. In other words,

790
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:55,239
for Maximus, truth is not determined by number or externality.

791
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,440
It's determined by what's true. The true Church I'm saying

792
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,719
the true Church is not a number. And the other

793
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,320
reason that he's writing that way is because he's opposing

794
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,280
the patriarchal constant who was a heretic read the disputation Paris,

795
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,239
And because he's appealing to Rome because he wants Rome's

796
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,920
approval for his teaching. And everybody did this. But wait

797
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,039
a minute. Does appealing to the Bishop of Rome as

798
00:47:19,079 --> 00:47:23,679
a final court of appeals actually occur? Oh? It doesn't. Uh, oh,

799
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:28,440
wait a minute, Shady Document nineteen. Over the centuries, many

800
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,599
appeals are made to the Bishop of Rome from the

801
00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:33,679
East in disciplinary matters, such as the deposition of a bishop.

802
00:47:34,159 --> 00:47:37,000
An attempt was made at the Council of Sartica in

803
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,679
three forty three to establish the rules for this procedure.

804
00:47:40,199 --> 00:47:43,599
Sartaka was received at the Council of Trollo, which Romanchelics reject.

805
00:47:43,599 --> 00:47:45,800
By the way, the Canon of Sartica determined that a

806
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,960
bishop had been condemned could appeal to the Bishop of Rome.

807
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,400
Now all the Romancanthic apologists use this, and they stopped there.

808
00:47:53,519 --> 00:47:55,559
Why do they stop there? Because the rest of what

809
00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:00,119
is argued and discussed in this disproves their position. So

810
00:48:00,119 --> 00:48:03,119
they're lying, they're dishonest, or they just see quote minds

811
00:48:03,119 --> 00:48:05,840
and they don't know the context. Because, as it goes

812
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,320
on to say the latter, the Bishop of Rome, if

813
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:13,079
he deemed it appropriate, could order a retrial. It's not

814
00:48:13,159 --> 00:48:18,239
a de facto divine fiat decision. They always want to

815
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,159
That's exactly what Vatican one says. That's how they paint

816
00:48:21,199 --> 00:48:25,760
this picture. It's the opposite. And when he orders a retrial,

817
00:48:26,039 --> 00:48:27,800
is it where is it? Is it in Rome? No,

818
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,760
it's conducted by the bishops in his providence that bishop.

819
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,639
Guess what. Appeals regarding these things were also made to

820
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,920
Constantinople and the other seas, Because if you were in

821
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,440
a snodal church and you want to support like Saint

822
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,880
Maximus did, obviously you're going to appeal to the number

823
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,760
one see Rome. If you can get Rome support, that's

824
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,920
a big deal when Rome was Orthodox. That's why Maximus

825
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,559
writes that way and why he appeals to Rome. But

826
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:59,679
you also want the other sees Alexandria, Antioch, et cetera

827
00:49:00,079 --> 00:49:05,639
could get them, And similar types of appeals were made

828
00:49:05,639 --> 00:49:12,840
to other patriarchates. So this shows anodal pentarchical model, not

829
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,639
top down de facto, just let Rome has spoken cases closed.

830
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,719
Do you notice how out of one side of their

831
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,880
mouth they'll say Roma spoken cases closed, because it's an autocratic,

832
00:49:24,199 --> 00:49:27,480
final arbiter decision. And then it turns out it turns

833
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:31,559
out it's not that at all. In their documents, you're saying,

834
00:49:31,599 --> 00:49:33,400
this is not an Orthodox Church document, this is a

835
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:39,519
Roman Catholic document, paragraph nineteen, the Chady Document. In fact,

836
00:49:39,519 --> 00:49:41,480
when the Chady Document came out a few years ago,

837
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:45,199
there were Roman Catholic apologists writing articles in Catholic World

838
00:49:45,199 --> 00:49:49,239
Report saying, what do we do with this? This means

839
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:57,079
Vatican One is wrong and we're dealing with giant hordes

840
00:49:57,159 --> 00:50:01,840
of normy pop apolog just who've not read any of

841
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,119
this stuff. That's why this is so frustrating. They're like

842
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,840
ten years behind in the reading. And I don't mean

843
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:11,440
to be Tim Gordon, but it means to Tim Gordon

844
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,519
because I liked him on a personal level. But Tim

845
00:50:13,559 --> 00:50:15,800
didn't read any of the material that I sent him.

846
00:50:16,119 --> 00:50:19,920
What he did was he relied on whatever Catholic apologetic

847
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,840
websites or persons he talked to. I get it. He's busy,

848
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,480
he's got a large family and that's great. However, if

849
00:50:26,519 --> 00:50:30,000
you're going to step into the debate world, and this

850
00:50:30,079 --> 00:50:33,199
is almost five years of Tim and I being buddies,

851
00:50:33,519 --> 00:50:36,599
we first started talking smack on Twitter, setting up and

852
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,840
arguing for this debate. It eventually happens five years later.

853
00:50:40,599 --> 00:50:43,760
I gave Tim a pretty significant reading list five years ago.

854
00:50:44,519 --> 00:50:47,679
He didn't read any of it. And I can tell,

855
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,599
and everybody in the audience can tell, especially if you

856
00:50:49,639 --> 00:50:51,760
read Saint Photios, that Tim had no idea what he

857
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:53,719
was talking about when he saw about Potius the Philio quick.

858
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,840
Tim didn't have any conception of what the Cappa Docian

859
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:02,679
model of the Trinity was, none whatsoever. And I'm not

860
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:07,639
being mean, that's just the facts. So how are we

861
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:11,679
supposed to convey this information and explain this when we've

862
00:51:11,679 --> 00:51:14,280
got people that won't do any of the primary reading

863
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:17,440
or the secondary reading, don't have any idea what the

864
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:22,880
actual literature says on these topics, and they're appealing to

865
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:27,960
very low information voters and duping people on the basis

866
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,719
of this sort of low tier stuff that Brian Holdsworth's

867
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:32,719
doing here where he just says, well, look Peter's listed

868
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:36,679
as first, He's called first. This this this quote, my quote,

869
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:39,519
my quote. Mind. Okay, but you understand that none of

870
00:51:39,519 --> 00:51:44,480
these quotes prove Vatican one's claims, and your own Vatican

871
00:51:44,519 --> 00:51:48,840
has admitted that. So you're fighting an uphill battle.

872
00:51:48,639 --> 00:51:54,119
Speaker 3: Here throughout the whole world, or perhaps most vividly in

873
00:51:54,159 --> 00:51:57,679
the Council of Chalcedon, in which the bishops proudly proclaimed

874
00:51:57,679 --> 00:52:01,599
that Peter has spoken through Leo, who was the pope

875
00:52:01,599 --> 00:52:04,000
at the time, after the Pope's letter had been read.

876
00:52:04,199 --> 00:52:06,599
But today the East claims that the Bishop of Rome

877
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,960
never had a supreme authority or universal jurisdiction. What was

878
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:16,079
simply recognized as a first among or universal jurisdiction. What

879
00:52:16,159 --> 00:52:18,440
was simply recognized as a first among equals, like a

880
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:19,719
position of honor.

881
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,760
Speaker 1: Now, Brian, it's your papal documents. Do you understand that

882
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:29,280
we didn't just make this up? Now Orthodox are claiming

883
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,679
that there wasn't universal jurisdiction. No, can you read your

884
00:52:31,679 --> 00:52:34,840
own documents? I mean, are these people just super lazy,

885
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:39,880
Like I don't understand why they can't just read their

886
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:45,840
own documents. Appeals to the Bishop Realm expressed the communion

887
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,239
of the church, but the Biser Realm did not exercise

888
00:52:48,519 --> 00:52:52,360
canonical authority over the churches of the East. That's exactly

889
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:58,159
what Nicia's canon say. What does Canon Ford Nicia say

890
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,960
a bishop should be appointed by the bishop of the province.

891
00:53:05,159 --> 00:53:06,880
Did do you see anything about the pope appointing all

892
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,079
the bishops in the world there, Canon Ford and I

893
00:53:09,159 --> 00:53:17,519
yah Canon two Constantinople three eighty one that defined the trinity.

894
00:53:17,559 --> 00:53:20,199
Which again he was wrong when he said that constantin

895
00:53:20,199 --> 00:53:21,920
Noble one was not out of comuny. Yes it was.

896
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,239
He didn't know basic church history. Tim didn't even know

897
00:53:25,559 --> 00:53:28,440
his own positions when we got into universal order magistarian

898
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,880
So canon too, bishops are not to go beyond their diocese.

899
00:53:35,119 --> 00:53:40,360
Where do you see universal romanistiction there? In fact, the

900
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:42,400
argument here is that it leads to confusion amongst the

901
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,960
laity if they go beyond. Now you know what the

902
00:53:46,039 --> 00:53:48,280
Roman catholic answerest all these Now, remember this is a

903
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:52,800
This is a canon written while this council has had

904
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,840
out of commune with Rome. So you can't argue Roman

905
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:01,239
Catholics that well, they just assumed Romans supremacy even though

906
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:05,360
this canon has written not mentioning it. That's what they

907
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,760
say about Canon six of Nicia. Right, So Cannon six

908
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,679
and Nicia. If you remember, Gabara said they didn't need

909
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,679
to mention the universal supremacy because everybody knew that. He

910
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,920
had argument from silence is just assumed that it's there.

911
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:22,320
But now, wait a minute, would you say the same

912
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,199
thing about the same wording in Constantinople three eighty one.

913
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:27,440
They didn't need to mention it because they all knew

914
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:29,119
it was there. Oh, they all knew it was there.

915
00:54:29,159 --> 00:54:30,519
But wait a minute, this is the council out of

916
00:54:30,519 --> 00:54:34,119
community with Rome. They right, they wrote these canons while

917
00:54:34,159 --> 00:54:36,199
they were not in commune with Rome. So that doesn't

918
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:40,159
work here. Oh so guess what turns out? The Empire,

919
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,159
for the most part, didn't believe that the Bishop Rome

920
00:54:43,199 --> 00:54:44,639
had jurisdiction throughout.

921
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 2: The whole world.

922
00:54:47,039 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 1: Do you ever hear Robin Catholic apologist going to the

923
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,639
canons of the councils? Do you not understand that alone

924
00:54:52,639 --> 00:54:54,880
should tell you their position is wrong. They don't even

925
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,559
go to the ecumenical mind of the church. But the

926
00:54:58,639 --> 00:55:02,239
cons Arendy Poble didn't say they were not making the

927
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,400
argument that the cans are infallible. I'm making the argument

928
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:08,599
that they reflect the mindset of the church at these councils.

929
00:55:09,599 --> 00:55:12,400
So would Rob McAlley say they believe in the actumenical councils.

930
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,960
They don't really. All they care about is giving verbal

931
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:20,159
credence to them and whatever the pope says, that's it now.

932
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:22,960
Romancallly was on the talking to smack that today, saying,

933
00:55:23,199 --> 00:55:25,920
who could you could call a council? Do you understand

934
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,840
that the emperors called the councils, not the popes. So

935
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:38,000
what are you even talking about. Let's go to Ephesus.

936
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:46,360
Ephesis grants autocephaly to the Church of Cyprus. What do

937
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,480
you remember me mentioning that in the debate, Tim didn't

938
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:50,800
even know what that was. He had no idea what

939
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:55,079
I was talking about, and he was so not aware

940
00:55:55,079 --> 00:55:57,519
of this that he didn't even understand that it refutes

941
00:55:57,519 --> 00:56:06,360
his position. Why are you thumbing down? You're making a

942
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:15,960
big stink, unmute. What's your problem? I'm mute, Ortho, I'm mute.

943
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:19,960
This is not orthodox person, that's the persons the romancalag

944
00:56:20,039 --> 00:56:25,559
making a profile. Ortho, unmute, you're thumbing down? What's your problem?

945
00:56:25,639 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 2: All right?

946
00:56:26,159 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 1: Just blocking? Good job, wasting everybody's time. So let me

947
00:56:34,559 --> 00:56:39,920
once again, for one hundredth time, share the article that

948
00:56:41,519 --> 00:56:44,760
now people will talk about the Ortho Bros Seraphims. Last

949
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,000
I heard was a deacon. He might be a priest now,

950
00:56:47,079 --> 00:56:49,199
so we've already this is already people that converted, like

951
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:54,880
in twenty seventeen are already becoming deacons and priests. There

952
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,639
is the article that he wrote right there, and it's

953
00:56:57,679 --> 00:57:01,000
just a list of cannons in the seven Cheminical councils

954
00:57:01,039 --> 00:57:05,920
that refute the Vatican one view. This is one of

955
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:10,159
the strongest arguments if you want the easy pragmatic approach. Okay,

956
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:13,400
what's the easiest way to show that the Vatican one

957
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:16,800
position is not true, that the papacies falls this right here,

958
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,320
All of these canons and every one of the ecumenical

959
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:25,880
councils doesn't fit with the autocratic, pivotal papal model. It's

960
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:32,440
it's a nodal model. And when you notice that none

961
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,719
of these mention the universal jurisdiction of Rome, do you

962
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,360
know what the Roman Catholics say, Well, we don't care

963
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:41,000
what the canons say, it's just what the Pope says.

964
00:57:41,039 --> 00:57:43,519
And we all know that they all believed in our position,

965
00:57:43,599 --> 00:57:45,599
So it's literally that I'm not kidding. That's the other

966
00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:48,480
Their argument is an argument from silence that yeah, there

967
00:57:48,519 --> 00:57:51,679
might be all these canons that contradict peoples supremacy, but

968
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:53,679
who cares what canon? Say? Well, I wait a minute,

969
00:57:53,679 --> 00:57:56,480
I thought you cared by the ecumenical councils because the

970
00:57:56,559 --> 00:57:59,760
canons are the ecclesiastical law of the councils, so you

971
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,440
don't actually care about the ecmical councils. All they care

972
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,199
about is what the Pope of Rome approves in the

973
00:58:05,199 --> 00:58:08,880
ecmitical councils, which means that they're schismatics because they don't

974
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,159
listen to the totality of the might of the church.

975
00:58:11,639 --> 00:58:16,639
They follow one dude, and you'll notice over and over

976
00:58:16,679 --> 00:58:19,760
and over in these canons they just talk about the

977
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:25,039
limited jurisdiction of bishops not transgressing their local jurisdictions. There's

978
00:58:25,079 --> 00:58:28,400
nothing about universal jurisdiction of Rome in the canons. That's

979
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:30,599
why they ignore this argument because it's so strong against

980
00:58:30,599 --> 00:58:33,360
their position, and then when you ask them about it,

981
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,159
they just say, yeah, that's because they all everybody already

982
00:58:36,239 --> 00:58:38,480
knew that romeh had universe jurisdiction, even though their papacy

983
00:58:38,519 --> 00:58:40,239
admits that dead this is so insane.

984
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:47,039
Speaker 3: As Peter's successor, and then in terms of actual governing authority,

985
00:58:47,199 --> 00:58:51,840
he had no more authority than other Apostolic sees with autocephaly.

986
00:58:52,119 --> 00:58:56,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is what the Ecumenical Canons literally just said,

987
00:58:56,559 --> 00:59:01,400
and what your own Vatican says. So autocephaly is not

988
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:06,480
every bishop is not autocephalus. That's a specific thing that's

989
00:59:06,519 --> 00:59:09,840
granted by councils to certain churches. I hang up with that.

990
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:13,239
Speaker 3: I would say that from the very beginning of my conversion,

991
00:59:13,239 --> 00:59:16,440
when I started reading Scripture, it was obvious that Peter

992
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:19,039
was the chief and the head of the Apostles.

993
00:59:19,239 --> 00:59:22,239
Speaker 1: It's actually a fallacy, right, because these are highly contentious

994
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:28,239
versus with two thousand years of accretions and Exejesus and

995
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,800
is of Jesus attached to them. So the fact that

996
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,960
you picked up the Bible, notice how Protestant this is.

997
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,320
It's just so obvious, it's just clear in the text. Now,

998
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:41,719
this is a fallacy of simplicity that again it's just obvious,

999
00:59:41,719 --> 00:59:44,480
it's just clear. It's just there, it's self evident. Right.

1000
00:59:45,559 --> 00:59:50,960
But again, there's two competing models or paradigms of interpreting

1001
00:59:51,639 --> 00:59:56,400
this massive data. To keep using your paradigm model against

1002
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:59,400
ours is what doesn't work, and it's very I don't

1003
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,400
know why it's so so hard to convey this to people.

1004
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:03,760
People just don't have the ability, I don't think to

1005
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:08,199
think in this sort of paradigm level way.

1006
01:00:09,039 --> 01:00:12,679
Speaker 3: And it's but it's hard to defend that Peter is

1007
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:16,599
that which the East recognizes, but that his successors are

1008
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,599
not somehow ahead of the successors of the other apostles,

1009
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,960
that they have autonomous authority apart from him. There's always

1010
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,719
been a logical challenge to disclaim in my mind, because

1011
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,639
let's explore something that both East and West affirm, which

1012
01:00:30,639 --> 01:00:33,760
is the hierarchical and nature of the church. The Church

1013
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:34,920
is not a gallant.

1014
01:00:34,679 --> 01:00:37,239
Speaker 1: So notice it's true that the church is not a galitarian,

1015
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:42,280
but they just cannot compute that the church is decentralized.

1016
01:00:43,079 --> 01:00:46,400
So when they hear decentralized, they assume chaos and democracy.

1017
01:00:46,599 --> 01:00:50,480
That's not what decentralization means. Bitcoin is a decentralized network.

1018
01:00:50,679 --> 01:00:54,599
It's not chaos, it's just simply decentralized. Now there are

1019
01:00:54,639 --> 01:00:59,119
within a decentralized system, authorities and hierarchies but there's nothing

1020
01:00:59,119 --> 01:01:02,360
about the word higher or the word authority that necessarily

1021
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,960
proves or leads you to the conclusion of papacy. You see,

1022
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,280
that's the fallacy here. That's what I was trying to

1023
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:10,760
argue a minute ago when I said ninety percent of

1024
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:16,119
these debates about ecclesiology ends up being a missed understanding

1025
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:21,920
that they can't grasp that our church is decentralized and

1026
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:27,519
they think that that's somehow necessarily a defeater. Maybe Jesus

1027
01:01:27,559 --> 01:01:30,679
just didn't set up an autocracy. Did you think about that?

1028
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:36,280
Maybe Jesus institute to day synodal decentralized church, But they

1029
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:38,360
have any they can't even think about that, Like that's

1030
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:42,400
just so far out of their paradigm. Every time these

1031
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:46,599
topics and these terms come up, they interpret it in

1032
01:01:46,679 --> 01:01:50,800
their way. Does that make sense? This is why paradigm

1033
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,440
level thinking is so important, and it's very so difficult

1034
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:55,280
to convey to these tomas and to these.

1035
01:01:55,239 --> 01:01:59,840
Speaker 3: Evidentialists pulitarian the church is organized and structured, and this

1036
01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:02,519
is that's a good thing, which I know is hard

1037
01:02:02,559 --> 01:02:07,599
to hear to our modern liberal democratic instincts to notice.

1038
01:02:07,599 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 1: He did it right here. He assumes that because there's hierarchy,

1039
01:02:11,039 --> 01:02:15,719
it must be the pyramid Roman Catholic model. No, no, it

1040
01:02:15,719 --> 01:02:20,320
can be a decentralized hierarchy. Hence a sonodal model.

1041
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:23,639
Speaker 3: Conditioning that we've been raised in. We tend to think

1042
01:02:23,639 --> 01:02:26,559
that equality across the board is actually preferable.

1043
01:02:26,679 --> 01:02:28,239
Speaker 1: By the way, have you noticed, and I've seen this

1044
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:32,320
many many times over in probably the majority of Romancalic debates.

1045
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:36,480
When the problems and the challenges come up, have you

1046
01:02:36,519 --> 01:02:39,239
noticed the first thing that they go to is their

1047
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:43,840
idea of what authority necessitates. If you believe in authority,

1048
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:49,480
it must be this model. Well, maybe there's other accounts

1049
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:51,480
of authority. Did you even think about that? Maybe there's

1050
01:02:51,519 --> 01:02:55,760
another type over structure or model of authority that isn't

1051
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,760
your model of authority. So this is just another basically

1052
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:03,519
question begging exercise. It's just assuming that we need authority,

1053
01:03:03,599 --> 01:03:06,920
we need hierarchy. The papacy offers authority in hierarchy. Therefore

1054
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:09,280
the papacy is true. But how do we know that

1055
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:12,320
it's your model or that your idea of what authority

1056
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:14,559
is is self evidently true. That's what this is. That's

1057
01:03:14,599 --> 01:03:15,199
all this is.

1058
01:03:16,039 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 3: But a society, especially a political society is one that

1059
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:23,679
agrees to organize itself in a particular way. But the

1060
01:03:23,679 --> 01:03:28,039
more egalitarian you are, the more disorganized you are.

1061
01:03:28,079 --> 01:03:31,079
Speaker 1: And so it's a false dialectic between either the papal

1062
01:03:31,159 --> 01:03:35,199
model or its egalitarian democracy. No, no, that's not the

1063
01:03:35,239 --> 01:03:36,199
only two options here.

1064
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 5: Therefore disordered.

1065
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:41,519
Speaker 3: The more hierarchical you are, the more organized you are.

1066
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:45,159
Speaker 1: And there this is precisely why I've said for so

1067
01:03:45,239 --> 01:03:49,599
many years Roman Catholics worship authority. Have you have you?

1068
01:03:49,679 --> 01:03:53,320
Have you caught this? Notice that he's not going to

1069
01:03:53,360 --> 01:04:00,559
the Patristics to explain all the passages about synodalism, collegiality, conciliarism, canons.

1070
01:04:01,039 --> 01:04:04,639
He's starting with a self evident what he thinks his

1071
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:08,079
obvious idea of what authority must be, and anything that

1072
01:04:08,159 --> 01:04:13,199
isn't that is by default egalitarian chaos democracy. This is

1073
01:04:13,239 --> 01:04:15,719
just a false either or. It's not a choice between

1074
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:19,639
papism and chaos democracy anarchy. That's a false either or.

1075
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:21,960
But that's what they have to do to make these

1076
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,920
positions work. Is just kind of appeal to what they

1077
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:30,840
think authority has to be, ignoring the actual Patristic teaching

1078
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:36,480
on the church. Do you see that that's huge. Well,

1079
01:04:36,519 --> 01:04:39,280
maybe he's not ignoring the Patricia teaching. Okay, if he's not,

1080
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:41,159
then why doesn't he talk about the canons of the

1081
01:04:41,159 --> 01:04:44,960
Commenical Councils. I will bet you dollars to donuts whatever

1082
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,480
that even means that he doesn't know what the canons

1083
01:04:48,519 --> 01:04:52,079
of the councils actually say. They never do, they don't care,

1084
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:56,679
but one thousand dollars Brian Holdsworth has not read the

1085
01:04:56,679 --> 01:05:00,360
Canons of the Commenical Councils. Now you can't come to

1086
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,039
me after this. And then he watches his video and

1087
01:05:03,039 --> 01:05:04,719
goes and reads them and they get your thousand dollars.

1088
01:05:04,719 --> 01:05:06,840
I'm saying that I bet you, at this point you

1089
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:09,079
cannot prove to me from this point back in history

1090
01:05:09,119 --> 01:05:11,920
that he knows anything about the canons the Ecumenical Councils,

1091
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,159
any of the councils, because there's no way you could

1092
01:05:14,159 --> 01:05:18,639
really argue this unless you're just being deceptive without being

1093
01:05:18,719 --> 01:05:23,639
aware that, like you know, there's tons of canons that

1094
01:05:23,719 --> 01:05:25,800
don't work with Vatican one right.

1095
01:05:26,519 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 3: Or ordered, and there's great strength in being organized. Imagine

1096
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:34,480
a grocery store in which nothing was categorized.

1097
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 1: Or organ So here we go again. The corporate model.

1098
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:38,559
This is what Romancalics always appeal to, is the state

1099
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:43,880
in corporate I'm not joking, state and corporations. So look,

1100
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:47,079
Jesus clearly was setting up some kind of corporate state.

1101
01:05:47,559 --> 01:05:49,320
By the way, do you know the Vatican is a

1102
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:53,559
corporate state. It's the world's first one. That's precisely the

1103
01:05:53,559 --> 01:05:57,800
criticism that we have. Jesus didn't set up a corporation.

1104
01:05:58,159 --> 01:06:01,519
It's not Jesus inc. It's not Vatican Bank run by

1105
01:06:01,559 --> 01:06:03,719
the Rothschilds. Oh wait a minute, that actually is what

1106
01:06:04,239 --> 01:06:06,800
the Romanchelics think. Jesus said, the Vatican Bank run by

1107
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:09,079
the Rothchilds, which is true, which is the fact. But

1108
01:06:09,079 --> 01:06:11,079
we're supposed to be tradcats and anti jew even the

1109
01:06:11,159 --> 01:06:13,559
Rothchilds are running Vatican Bank. Oh but they don't tell

1110
01:06:13,559 --> 01:06:19,000
you that. No, it's like, the corporate model is not

1111
01:06:19,199 --> 01:06:22,320
the church. You understand, the Church is a unique institution.

1112
01:06:22,639 --> 01:06:25,119
So every time a Romancallic deviates into trying to make

1113
01:06:25,199 --> 01:06:30,159
these analogies to human institutions, they're missing the point of

1114
01:06:30,199 --> 01:06:34,880
a theanthropic institution whose head is Christ governing through the

1115
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:38,320
Holy Spirit. The big glaring mistake in all of this

1116
01:06:38,639 --> 01:06:40,679
is to not believe in the work of the Holy Spirit.

1117
01:06:42,159 --> 01:06:44,719
It's as if the Holy Spirit can't speak through a synod,

1118
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:47,599
even though he does in Acts fifteen. Ever, since Acts fifteen,

1119
01:06:47,639 --> 01:06:50,719
the Holy Spirit can only speak through one guy. He's

1120
01:06:50,719 --> 01:06:58,320
that weak. Only Rome apparently is the choice voice box

1121
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:01,639
of the Holy Spirit, whereas in the Book of Acts

1122
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:05,360
he falls on all the College of the Apostles. Why

1123
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:07,800
is it that only Peter is the voice of the

1124
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:11,760
Holy Spirit. Isn't it interesting that as the philioquay heresy

1125
01:07:12,639 --> 01:07:17,840
rises to prominence in the eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh, twelfth century,

1126
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:22,800
at the exact same time the papal heresy arises that

1127
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:25,559
only the mouth of Peter, in the mouth the Holy

1128
01:07:25,599 --> 01:07:30,000
Spirit in the mouth of Jesus are in Rome. It's

1129
01:07:30,039 --> 01:07:33,360
like there's a connection between the phillioquay and the papacy.

1130
01:07:34,239 --> 01:07:37,000
Of course there is. In fact, Philip Grard has a

1131
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:42,239
whole chapter on the infallible connection between the papacy and

1132
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,840
the Phillyoquay and why this is such a massive delusion

1133
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:49,880
and a massive heresy. The two go together because ultimately

1134
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:51,880
it's the pope that ends up sending the Holy Spirit

1135
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:55,599
to the Church. Jesus is no longer the economia. Right,

1136
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:59,679
the incarnate Christ who breathes on the apostles and sends

1137
01:07:59,679 --> 01:08:03,280
the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, that's economia, that's not Philly Okuay.

1138
01:08:04,119 --> 01:08:07,880
And once the papacy rises to its geopolitical power, it's

1139
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:10,559
only natural that the papacy would then say, I alone

1140
01:08:10,559 --> 01:08:12,960
give the Holy Spirit to the bishops. I alone the

1141
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:15,480
declare all the bishops in the world, even though I

1142
01:08:15,559 --> 01:08:20,560
just showed you Nicia says that all it takes to

1143
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:23,319
have a bishop is the bishops of the local province

1144
01:08:23,319 --> 01:08:28,039
appointing him. How do you not understand that this is

1145
01:08:28,079 --> 01:08:31,920
a massive deviation in ecclesiology. Well, he's the pope. He

1146
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:35,000
could do what he wants. The pope can do what

1147
01:08:35,039 --> 01:08:39,000
he want. Oh, can he change natural law to say

1148
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:40,880
that the death penalty is now against the Gospel? Well,

1149
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,239
apparently he can. To these people, this is how insane

1150
01:08:43,239 --> 01:08:45,840
this cult. This is a cult, dude. Look, it's a cult.

1151
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:47,920
That's a lot. That's that's what we have to Nobody

1152
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:51,479
can reason rationally about this within this system because it's

1153
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:58,880
a freaking cult. That's it. Well, you can't know the truth.

1154
01:08:59,239 --> 01:09:01,520
The pope, he has to solve all the problems in

1155
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:04,920
the church. Oh okay, then how did anyone know the

1156
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,680
Christian faith in the year three hundred? Without access to

1157
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:16,399
Rome and without any ecumenical councils, they had to write

1158
01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:18,479
a letter to the Bishop of Room. Remember when I

1159
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:21,399
asked a Borrow When this came up with a bar Well,

1160
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:24,600
the pope couldn't solve every controversy because if he did,

1161
01:09:25,119 --> 01:09:28,159
the better cand to be full of papers. He wouldn't

1162
01:09:28,199 --> 01:09:30,560
be able to walk around the better because all the

1163
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:35,199
papers were I'm not joking that was well wait a minute, idiot,

1164
01:09:35,239 --> 01:09:38,119
you're the one that argues that the whole point of

1165
01:09:38,159 --> 01:09:40,720
the papacy is to solve the disputes. Then why do

1166
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:43,399
we need ecumenical councils? What a waste of time. In

1167
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:47,960
the ancient world, we have hundreds of bishops traveling hundreds

1168
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:50,880
of miles of risking death and disease to get to

1169
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:54,079
some imperial city. All they had to do is write

1170
01:09:54,079 --> 01:09:59,039
a letter to Rome. Case closed? Why are we having

1171
01:09:59,039 --> 01:10:03,239
councils at all? If ro spoken? Cases closed? And you

1172
01:10:03,239 --> 01:10:05,680
know what it Borrow says about this will dude the

1173
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:10,159
for Domini centuries the church he head the Poe, buddy,

1174
01:10:10,199 --> 01:10:12,800
did he use it? Oh, thank you for failing the church.

1175
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:16,199
Thank you for making this a thousand times more difficult

1176
01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:19,079
than it has to be. You could have just solved

1177
01:10:19,079 --> 01:10:21,319
all these you just do an extra showe to Poe

1178
01:10:21,399 --> 01:10:24,760
with duddy hood. I'm not kidding. This is the people.

1179
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:26,479
They think. This is the fat guy they think is like,

1180
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:28,880
is the greatest apologist? Is this guy who says this

1181
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:32,600
kind of stuff? No. One five two dollars. Debate the Mormons.

1182
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:35,439
If the Mormons call in, I will debate them. Please

1183
01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:38,000
call in Mormons. Chandler White. A long time ago, I

1184
01:10:38,039 --> 01:10:40,600
gave you four and a half inward passes because I

1185
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:45,960
have four one fourth black children. My wife is half black. However,

1186
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:47,720
I found out that a fifth child is on the way,

1187
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:49,920
so you can have one more one fourth inward pass

1188
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:51,960
Thank you. I mean, the dude, those are racked up.

1189
01:10:53,119 --> 01:10:56,359
I mean I basically could just be like super racist

1190
01:10:56,399 --> 01:10:59,680
for a year and nobody can do anything because I've

1191
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:03,920
got like it's in the twenties now of passes. Austin

1192
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:06,600
Alverarez five dollars. I went to Saint Mary's Orthodox Church

1193
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:08,479
in Minneapolis, and it turns out a girl from this

1194
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,760
parish was hit in the tra n Z event. On

1195
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:16,439
the twenty seventh, everybody prayed for Sophia at Saint Mary's

1196
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:20,720
Orthodox Church. Yes, please do That's terrible. I mean again,

1197
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:23,039
I go watch my stream yesterday on what I think

1198
01:11:23,159 --> 01:11:25,920
is going on. Schmuck, schmuck. Two dollars. Do you know

1199
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:29,720
anything about the Bahai faith? I mean it's a syncretous,

1200
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:31,760
relativistic cult. I haven't. I don't have done. I haven't

1201
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:33,960
done a specific video on it, but I mean any

1202
01:11:34,079 --> 01:11:36,960
sort of basic presup would refute be high stuff. G

1203
01:11:37,079 --> 01:11:40,279
twenty six five dollars. Jay was actually teaching Tim Gordon

1204
01:11:40,319 --> 01:11:42,000
in the Catholic position the whole time that debate was

1205
01:11:42,039 --> 01:11:44,760
going on. I was very embarrassing for the papers. Yeah,

1206
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:46,600
and he tried to play like he knew what he

1207
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:49,399
was saying, that he was right. But then again he

1208
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,359
conceded to me, not just the Philly oquay. He conceded

1209
01:11:52,399 --> 01:11:54,800
the Philly oquy part publicly at the end of the debate,

1210
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:59,000
and then he privately afterwards when we were talking, said Yo,

1211
01:11:59,079 --> 01:12:02,239
you were right about universe magistrate. Well, thank you, silent

1212
01:12:02,319 --> 01:12:04,640
juice five dollars Jay, What happened to that Chris guy

1213
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:08,039
from Hookbusters is John, the same guy that calls in.

1214
01:12:08,079 --> 01:12:10,159
I'm not going to speak to who the John of

1215
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:14,319
the Chriss are. But Chris did pass away, so pray

1216
01:12:14,399 --> 01:12:17,800
for Chris. He was a great guy. We hung out

1217
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:21,000
with Chris in person. We missed Chris quite a bit,

1218
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:24,479
but he did pass away. KL five dollars. I rewatched

1219
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:27,560
the Tim Poole debate with Tim Gordon. You actually cited

1220
01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:30,760
lumin Gentium where it says together we adore the one God.

1221
01:12:31,119 --> 01:12:35,079
Tim Gordon quietly said, with us monotheus. I missed that

1222
01:12:35,159 --> 01:12:40,119
the first time exactly exactly. So he tried to say

1223
01:12:41,319 --> 01:12:45,760
together with us just generic monotheus, but it actually says

1224
01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:49,640
together with us Catholics. So he's trying. Tim is like

1225
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:52,159
a lawyer who will immediately try to paint the narrative

1226
01:12:52,199 --> 01:12:55,880
in some opposite way. Buddy p two hundred dollars. When

1227
01:12:55,960 --> 01:13:01,239
is a debate review? I'm not sure because I'm trying

1228
01:13:01,239 --> 01:13:03,560
to organize with David Rhon and Rhan is in Turkey

1229
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:06,279
and he's, you know, he's got his own life going.

1230
01:13:06,319 --> 01:13:08,800
He's got exciting things happening in his life right now.

1231
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:16,680
So props are our buddy, our old school orthobro David Erhanu.

1232
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:19,000
But I think we'll probably trying to make that happen soon.

1233
01:13:20,239 --> 01:13:23,079
Swinter is two dollars? Would you debate James White? So

1234
01:13:23,399 --> 01:13:27,039
James White offered to only debate me. I'm tired of

1235
01:13:27,039 --> 01:13:29,680
telling the story because they it's just so dishonest. They

1236
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:36,079
act like I ran from James White. James White didn't

1237
01:13:36,119 --> 01:13:38,279
offer to debate me on what I've been asking him

1238
01:13:38,279 --> 01:13:40,680
to debate for years. He changed the topic and said

1239
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:44,479
he'll debate icons in the Seventh Council if I live

1240
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:48,079
within RB driving distance. I mean, what the hell is that?

1241
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:50,079
First of all, I'm not telling he doesn't need to

1242
01:13:50,079 --> 01:13:53,800
know where I live. I don't trust that dude at all. Secondly,

1243
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:56,560
it wasn't a debate on what I want to debate.

1244
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:58,439
And third it wasn't actually offered to debate. It was

1245
01:13:58,479 --> 01:14:00,680
only if it was in driving distance requires me to

1246
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:02,479
tell him where I live, and I'm not. This is

1247
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:05,159
just all super gay. He can easily hop on it

1248
01:14:05,279 --> 01:14:07,600
on the internet and do a debate, which he's not

1249
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:09,760
gonna do. R M two forty nine. Why do we

1250
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:12,720
call God the Father? Well, he's revealed as our father.

1251
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:19,479
So beyond that, I mean Lexus crash out one dollar.

1252
01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:21,800
A good proof that Catholicism is faking gay is all

1253
01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:24,760
the Calolic priests actually act like weird skittle salesmen and

1254
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:29,039
customer service people. Orthodox scourgy actually act like normal people,

1255
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:34,359
like nineteen eighty TV commercials, authentic exactly. That's funny. It's

1256
01:14:34,359 --> 01:14:38,399
a good way to put it. John, I'm sorry, Let's

1257
01:14:38,399 --> 01:14:40,560
go to you, because I saw you were waiting. I

1258
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:42,119
want to go ahead and go to you, and then

1259
01:14:42,159 --> 01:14:45,479
we'll go to our Protestant friend here who's been saying

1260
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:53,000
he wants to chat John. What's up, John? Are you

1261
01:14:53,039 --> 01:15:04,159
able to talk? If not, I'll go to Seoul? Hey, Jay, Yeah,

1262
01:15:04,159 --> 01:15:05,720
and then we'll go to Salt. I mean to John,

1263
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:06,159
what's up?

1264
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 6: So?

1265
01:15:09,279 --> 01:15:13,159
Speaker 7: I watched the Tim debate, and I don't.

1266
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:15,680
Speaker 5: Think Tim is really representing their position. Well, so I

1267
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:16,760
kind of want to see how.

1268
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:20,680
Speaker 7: You're going to move if it's represented the way I

1269
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:26,800
think probably Iborrow would represent it. So if you'll give

1270
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:29,039
me like thirty seconds all the way out what I

1271
01:15:29,079 --> 01:15:35,039
think they're saying. Okay, So, in Catholic thought, the trendy

1272
01:15:35,199 --> 01:15:41,000
is explained by eternal notional acts and God generation aspiration.

1273
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:43,960
Speaker 5: Each act has an active side and the.

1274
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:47,920
Speaker 7: Passive side, and each terminates in its proper effect.

1275
01:15:49,079 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 1: So well, first of all, that I mean, that's problematic

1276
01:15:52,039 --> 01:15:55,239
from the outset because it's not the capit doc teaching.

1277
01:15:55,239 --> 01:15:57,880
It's not called out number one. The persons are not

1278
01:15:58,039 --> 01:16:01,479
notions or notional effects or notionally distinct.

1279
01:16:03,239 --> 01:16:07,279
Speaker 7: Yeah, from this seems to be like almost like some

1280
01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:09,119
type of logical prior.

1281
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:12,159
Speaker 5: It's like a logical framework they use for.

1282
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:16,800
Speaker 7: Verbalizing this stuff, and it seems to have some type

1283
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:20,640
of priority involved in it, where like logically you kind

1284
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:25,359
of start with this essence that yeah, doesn't do these powers,

1285
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:30,119
but it kind of has the logical capacity to do them.

1286
01:16:30,199 --> 01:16:31,720
Speaker 5: They're always actualized.

1287
01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:36,439
Speaker 7: But in their way of explaining the trinity, I guess

1288
01:16:36,439 --> 01:16:39,319
in their head they're kind of doing the one torch

1289
01:16:39,399 --> 01:16:42,159
lights another torch which lights another torch type of.

1290
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:48,479
Speaker 5: Thing in their head. But so they that is what

1291
01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:49,159
they say though.

1292
01:16:49,239 --> 01:16:52,439
Speaker 1: Okay, but I asked him, Gordon, h if the son

1293
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:55,359
has the power of cause, because he said the father

1294
01:16:55,479 --> 01:16:57,840
is the cause and he's giving that power of causing

1295
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:02,600
to the son, and so if that's what shows equality

1296
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:04,800
between the father and the son. Then what is the

1297
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:08,840
spirit's power to cause? And it's not a cause. Passive

1298
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:11,359
aspiration is not a cause. But he actually said it

1299
01:17:11,439 --> 01:17:13,640
was a cause. He made that mistake there.

1300
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:15,239
Speaker 5: I don't think he should have said. I think he

1301
01:17:15,279 --> 01:17:18,000
should have you know, admitted to misspeaking there.

1302
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:21,119
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I mean you've read the mystagogy, right, yeah, okay,

1303
01:17:21,159 --> 01:17:24,279
So what in the mystagogy in any way lines up

1304
01:17:24,319 --> 01:17:28,159
with this tomistic idea of notional distinctions? With it, it

1305
01:17:28,159 --> 01:17:33,199
almost sounds like a it's an appropriation of the Augustinian

1306
01:17:33,279 --> 01:17:37,439
idea of the psychological analogy of the trinity, that the

1307
01:17:37,479 --> 01:17:40,800
Father is the mind, the Son is the will, or

1308
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:43,319
the son is the Father is the mind of the

1309
01:17:43,319 --> 01:17:45,520
Son is the speech, and the Spirit is the will.

1310
01:17:46,119 --> 01:17:50,960
But they're trying to appropriate that for these relations within

1311
01:17:51,079 --> 01:17:54,199
a within a glob. So they have this idea that

1312
01:17:54,239 --> 01:17:57,880
the Trinity is this essentialist monad or God is an

1313
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:00,720
essentialist monad, and then within this mona there are these

1314
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:04,600
relational distinctions. But the best critique of this is when Loski.

1315
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:07,880
Have you read Loski's a I can't remember if it's

1316
01:18:08,239 --> 01:18:12,039
mistical theology or the the vision of light book.

1317
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:16,199
Speaker 5: I've read bits and pieces of mystical theology, but.

1318
01:18:16,159 --> 01:18:18,199
Speaker 1: I haven't read that. Okay, the other one is necessary

1319
01:18:18,199 --> 01:18:21,760
because he has a great critique of person is relation

1320
01:18:22,840 --> 01:18:27,279
and that's the that's what this Tomistic idea is grounded in,

1321
01:18:27,359 --> 01:18:30,079
that persons are the relations between the two.

1322
01:18:30,199 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 7: Or between So when I was talking with Ibara, he says, essentially,

1323
01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:36,880
there's I don't know why they state this principle other

1324
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:40,279
than arbitrarily, so maybe you can help me figure out

1325
01:18:40,279 --> 01:18:43,760
why they say this. But he essentially says all things

1326
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:46,560
are equal except where relative opposition.

1327
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:50,479
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, I just shared the papers that critique

1328
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:54,800
relative relations of opposition. It's there's a Lossky paper that

1329
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:58,279
critiques it. And even Eves Kongar, who's the Roman Catholic,

1330
01:18:58,359 --> 01:19:02,079
has a paper saying that this development that Thomas has

1331
01:19:02,119 --> 01:19:05,000
out of Augustinian ideas is not the Cappudocan teaching.

1332
01:19:06,319 --> 01:19:06,520
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1333
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:09,760
Speaker 7: Well, I agree with you that it's not the Cappudocean teaching, right,

1334
01:19:09,800 --> 01:19:11,920
But I also don't think this is.

1335
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:15,439
Speaker 5: The view that Tim put forth into debate to you, right, like.

1336
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:21,079
Speaker 7: He was trying to clearly, but I mean the notion

1337
01:19:21,159 --> 01:19:25,760
of passive uh, you know, spiration or begetting has.

1338
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:26,720
Speaker 5: Nothing to do with cause ation.

1339
01:19:26,720 --> 01:19:29,760
Speaker 1: Okay, but I mean that's a medieval scholastic invention. There's

1340
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:32,920
nothing about paths of spiration any of the Church fathers

1341
01:19:34,119 --> 01:19:36,000
to my knowledge. So this is this is something that

1342
01:19:36,039 --> 01:19:38,479
they've made up to make sense of what it means

1343
01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:42,960
to have a power, just because again, if the spirit

1344
01:19:43,079 --> 01:19:45,000
lacks this power, then what does he have. Well, he

1345
01:19:45,039 --> 01:19:48,119
has the power of spy. What spiration is what picks

1346
01:19:48,199 --> 01:19:51,520
him out? How could he have spiration? Oh well, it's passive.

1347
01:19:52,039 --> 01:19:53,560
What does that I mean to me? It's just a

1348
01:19:53,600 --> 01:19:54,359
nonsense term.

1349
01:19:54,399 --> 01:19:55,279
Speaker 5: Does mean well to me.

1350
01:19:55,359 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 7: What they're trying to say there is that like in

1351
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:03,560
their mind, the son doesn't forget because his personal property

1352
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:08,000
is to be the effect of the generative act of

1353
01:20:08,039 --> 01:20:10,800
the essence of the Father, I guess, because the essence

1354
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:13,359
doesn't actually generate according to Lattering.

1355
01:20:13,399 --> 01:20:18,600
Speaker 1: For again, I mean their their position equates a relation

1356
01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:23,119
with a person. Okay, Aquinas says persona at rolatio a

1357
01:20:23,159 --> 01:20:27,199
person is relation. So this is a fundamental blunder because

1358
01:20:27,319 --> 01:20:30,039
they think person and nature are identical. They don't think

1359
01:20:30,039 --> 01:20:34,319
they're really distinct. Orthodoxy he thinks they're really distinct. So

1360
01:20:34,359 --> 01:20:36,920
they think that if that's the if person and nature

1361
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:41,680
are actually identical, then what how would we distinguish them?

1362
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:45,039
And I don't think they understand hypostatic properties. You're calling

1363
01:20:45,079 --> 01:20:48,479
impersonal properties, but that's why they would go to There's

1364
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:51,319
no there's literally no reason why you would do relations

1365
01:20:51,319 --> 01:20:54,439
of opposition unless you had a struggle with trying to

1366
01:20:54,479 --> 01:20:57,840
distinguish the person's. Even Augustine, when you read on the Trinity,

1367
01:20:58,239 --> 01:21:01,279
he struggles with how to distinguish them, and he does,

1368
01:21:01,319 --> 01:21:04,000
in one point admit that, yeah, it does seem like

1369
01:21:04,039 --> 01:21:07,399
the father is the principal cause, but because he's given

1370
01:21:07,479 --> 01:21:10,880
cause to the son explicitly, he then has to figure

1371
01:21:10,880 --> 01:21:14,960
out a way. Well, I can't distinguish the persons strictly

1372
01:21:15,199 --> 01:21:17,720
with cause because that's something that father and son have,

1373
01:21:18,199 --> 01:21:21,880
So I need another way to actually distinguish these persons.

1374
01:21:22,439 --> 01:21:25,399
And he talks about relative opposition. I'm going from here.

1375
01:21:25,399 --> 01:21:28,319
I think he does, but more specifically, Aquitas builds on

1376
01:21:28,359 --> 01:21:31,119
it and flushes it out even further. But the problem

1377
01:21:31,119 --> 01:21:35,199
with relative opposition is that number one, God is equally

1378
01:21:35,279 --> 01:21:38,760
triad as much as he is Monad. He's not. There's

1379
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:42,359
no die ad at all to have relative opposition requires

1380
01:21:42,399 --> 01:21:45,039
a diead. This is a critique that's made in God

1381
01:21:45,079 --> 01:21:47,119
His Should Dialectic, Volume one. I didn't make this up.

1382
01:21:47,159 --> 01:21:50,640
It's his critique. But beyond that, and it also gets

1383
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:53,000
into Patristic ways of number theory and how they count

1384
01:21:53,039 --> 01:21:56,239
it counted by division. That's why you don't have in

1385
01:21:56,319 --> 01:22:00,479
the In the Creed it says one and undivided, because

1386
01:22:00,520 --> 01:22:03,399
the Patristic means of counting was particularly for the trinity

1387
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:06,920
in terms of his nature. He's undivided. But the persons

1388
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:09,960
are divided. Right, how do I get father and son?

1389
01:22:10,039 --> 01:22:12,199
While I divide the father, the father is not the son.

1390
01:22:12,279 --> 01:22:14,840
It doesn't mean that you're actually you're not. It doesn't

1391
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:17,640
mean you're literally dividing them. It just means counting by division.

1392
01:22:18,039 --> 01:22:20,960
So persons are counted by division. The essence, I assume

1393
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:23,520
mean by identity. The essence is counted by division. That's

1394
01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:27,199
why the Creed says one and undivided. Are you familiar

1395
01:22:27,239 --> 01:22:31,239
with this? Yeah, okay, so it's I'm not trying to

1396
01:22:31,279 --> 01:22:33,039
go off topic. I'm saying there's a reason why I'm

1397
01:22:33,039 --> 01:22:36,840
saying this. And Ambiguo one Maximus talks about the Patristic

1398
01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:40,680
way of counting, and he talks about monad diead try it. Okay,

1399
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:47,279
that's how you count patristically when you're doing like when

1400
01:22:47,319 --> 01:22:48,880
you're when you're picking out the persons, you have to

1401
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:50,760
put this was this was the Jake debate when we

1402
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:53,720
had to do the LPT. Anyway, those are all separate

1403
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:56,039
topics that I mentioned in passing in the debate. But

1404
01:22:56,479 --> 01:23:00,760
the main issue is that the whole reason why there's

1405
01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:04,239
a problem is because they think that person and nature

1406
01:23:04,279 --> 01:23:08,000
are identical in the trinity. They're only notionally distinct. Aquinas

1407
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:09,560
says that explicitly, Augusta.

1408
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:11,560
Speaker 5: They wouldn't admit to that in a debate.

1409
01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:13,760
Speaker 1: Like, no, no, it's not. It's not controversial.

1410
01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:17,039
Speaker 7: So you think if I ask the bar or nature

1411
01:23:17,079 --> 01:23:18,600
in person the same thing, he'll tell me.

1412
01:23:18,720 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he's he's said that in the past on

1413
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:25,520
a record. Aquinas says, they're ration, they're notionally distinct.

1414
01:23:27,239 --> 01:23:27,960
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1415
01:23:28,039 --> 01:23:30,159
Speaker 1: So now they want to say, okay, well, how are

1416
01:23:30,199 --> 01:23:32,880
we really going to distinguish the persons? Then? If person

1417
01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:35,880
in nature are identical but only from the human Vanture's point,

1418
01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:40,079
conceptually distinct, how do we distinguish them? It can't be

1419
01:23:40,199 --> 01:23:42,880
on the basis of relation to origin. That's the orthodox view,

1420
01:23:43,399 --> 01:23:48,560
because that would mean hypostatic properties, right, Yeah, because the

1421
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:51,119
son also has the power to cause. So cause can't

1422
01:23:51,159 --> 01:23:53,439
be the thing that picks out the father because two

1423
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:56,920
people have cause. Okay, so how do we distinguish them

1424
01:23:57,159 --> 01:23:59,960
relative opposition, relationship opposition? The father is not the son,

1425
01:24:00,159 --> 01:24:02,359
the spirit, The son is not the spirit, not the father,

1426
01:24:02,399 --> 01:24:06,680
et cetera. It's stupid because that is a quality that

1427
01:24:06,800 --> 01:24:10,600
all three share, all three share, not being the other two.

1428
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:11,880
It's really stupid.

1429
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:12,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1430
01:24:12,960 --> 01:24:17,079
Speaker 1: And a person is not a relation. A person is

1431
01:24:17,119 --> 01:24:22,760
a subject. A relation is a predicate. That's Losky's critique

1432
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:23,640
of this nonsense.

1433
01:24:25,319 --> 01:24:29,560
Speaker 7: Okay, And how did did Aquinas just kind of look

1434
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:34,560
at Aristotle's metaphysical categories and go, hmmm, I think relation

1435
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:37,239
is probably the best one I can use here or

1436
01:24:37,319 --> 01:24:39,800
is there some other basis that he.

1437
01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:41,560
Speaker 1: I don't think it had anything to do with Aristotle.

1438
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:44,960
Speaker 7: Well, I mean he's looking at his he's looking at

1439
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:50,439
his categories, right, and he's like, going, relation is the

1440
01:24:50,479 --> 01:24:53,279
best thing that I can use here at the metaphysical

1441
01:24:53,359 --> 01:24:56,239
level of the trinity to explain the distinctions.

1442
01:24:56,399 --> 01:25:01,119
Speaker 1: Right now, he's pulling from Augustine, where Augustine, using Greek dialectics,

1443
01:25:01,159 --> 01:25:05,199
consider the possibility of relational opposition from neoplatonism. It's nothing

1444
01:25:05,199 --> 01:25:08,199
to do with Aristotle. Gustin is pulling from on the

1445
01:25:08,239 --> 01:25:13,039
trinity and opposition and could you cash these out as

1446
01:25:13,039 --> 01:25:16,640
distinct through not being the others, which is again not

1447
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:19,840
being the others? Is not a subject, I mean, it

1448
01:25:20,079 --> 01:25:22,560
doesn't tell you anything like you could say, is it

1449
01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:24,880
true to say Jay is not the chair, Jay is

1450
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:27,359
not the bench, Jay is not the shelf. Yeah, those

1451
01:25:27,359 --> 01:25:29,479
are all true, but they don't tell you who Jay is.

1452
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:33,279
They don't tell you. They're just negative qualities that don't

1453
01:25:33,359 --> 01:25:38,800
identify the subject. That's why the Cappadocians say it's the

1454
01:25:38,840 --> 01:25:42,279
Father that is the principal source and origin of the Godhead,

1455
01:25:42,399 --> 01:25:45,760
not the essence the Father. And that's why the Creed

1456
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:48,560
picks out monarchical trinitarianism, says, I believe in one God,

1457
01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:52,680
the Father above all right, and that's why his hypothetic

1458
01:25:52,720 --> 01:25:55,800
property can't be shared with the son. So the whole

1459
01:25:55,920 --> 01:25:59,680
error starts from confusing nature in person, thinking that there're

1460
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:05,079
only no distinct, not really distinct, and granting the hypoesetic

1461
01:26:05,079 --> 01:26:07,520
property the Father to the son because they don't start

1462
01:26:07,560 --> 01:26:10,079
their trinitarianism. They're they're confused, and they come up with

1463
01:26:10,119 --> 01:26:12,319
all these wild and crazy ideas to make this about that.

1464
01:26:12,399 --> 01:26:14,840
You understand that in some places Aquinas actually says, I'm

1465
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:16,880
pretty sure I can pull out Sumi countries and teeners.

1466
01:26:16,920 --> 01:26:18,560
He actually says the procession of the Holy Spirit is

1467
01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:22,199
from the essence. He goes even further, it's abu troque.

1468
01:26:22,279 --> 01:26:24,319
I believe, well, how.

1469
01:26:24,239 --> 01:26:26,840
Speaker 7: Does how does that job with latter in four? Because

1470
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:30,199
it's very clear that there's a supreme reality that doesn't forget,

1471
01:26:30,399 --> 01:26:34,239
doesn't spir rate, isn't you know, it's very clear in

1472
01:26:34,319 --> 01:26:37,439
latter in that it doesn't do any of those things.

1473
01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:41,760
Speaker 1: I mean again, I think you're looking for uh, harmony

1474
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:48,000
and consistency amongst the situations and confusion. I'm serious. I

1475
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:52,560
mean Aquinas contradicts himself because early Aquinas doesn't have any

1476
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:56,439
position of the monarchy of the Father, and people have

1477
01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:59,279
written about this. Later Aquinas then seems to correct that

1478
01:26:59,399 --> 01:27:01,680
and admit, okay, actually know the Father is the beginning

1479
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:04,079
point of the Godhead. So how do you make that work?

1480
01:27:04,479 --> 01:27:06,239
I mean they're inconsistent?

1481
01:27:06,319 --> 01:27:11,600
Speaker 7: Man, Yeah, I guess to me sometimes it sounds like

1482
01:27:11,680 --> 01:27:14,199
they're trying to say the same things as us.

1483
01:27:14,239 --> 01:27:16,000
Speaker 1: They just they're.

1484
01:27:18,119 --> 01:27:20,720
Speaker 5: Scholastic terms that are so.

1485
01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:22,760
Speaker 1: This by the way, this if you want to see

1486
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:27,079
where a Quinna says this, it's in Sumicondrad and t

1487
01:27:27,239 --> 01:27:37,079
LA's book four, and it's so he raises the question

1488
01:27:37,279 --> 01:28:01,920
is the spirit spirted from the divine essence? You'll notice

1489
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:06,840
in section three he uses the human mind analogy. The

1490
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:08,920
Holy Spirit is the love of God, so that he

1491
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:14,159
collapses energy or attribute in person. By the way, you know,

1492
01:28:14,199 --> 01:28:15,760
they all, I mean, easy way to refute them is,

1493
01:28:15,800 --> 01:28:17,600
you know they teach that the Holy Spirit proceeds from

1494
01:28:17,640 --> 01:28:22,119
the will of God, which is eron. Do you know

1495
01:28:22,159 --> 01:28:22,760
they teach that.

1496
01:28:24,119 --> 01:28:27,000
Speaker 7: I've heard you mentioned that I've never dug very deep

1497
01:28:27,039 --> 01:28:31,880
in on that argument. So all right, well, I was

1498
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:35,079
just kind of curious how it's interesting because your move

1499
01:28:35,159 --> 01:28:38,079
seemed to be to cut me off at notional acts

1500
01:28:38,119 --> 01:28:43,680
and essentially say that's a historical for a Christian viewpoint.

1501
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:46,840
Speaker 5: That seemed to be your first move when I started speaking.

1502
01:28:47,039 --> 01:28:52,159
Speaker 1: So there's analogies that are made in Tertullian or some

1503
01:28:52,199 --> 01:28:58,359
of the apologists to find ways to explain the Trinity, like, okay,

1504
01:28:58,359 --> 01:29:02,640
the Trinity is like the mind, the Son is the Word,

1505
01:29:02,760 --> 01:29:05,600
and the holy spirits like the will or the breath,

1506
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:08,399
right yea. And what happens is that when a Gostin

1507
01:29:08,439 --> 01:29:12,199
writes on the Trinity, he he does a lot of speculation,

1508
01:29:12,359 --> 01:29:14,279
and he admits that, he says, I'm doing a lot

1509
01:29:14,279 --> 01:29:17,079
of speculation here, and he tries to come up with

1510
01:29:17,119 --> 01:29:23,359
all these ways to make the Trinity rational, cogent. He

1511
01:29:23,439 --> 01:29:27,000
tries to find trinities in nature, little trinities everywhere, to

1512
01:29:27,039 --> 01:29:30,600
try to make the doctrine sensible. He pulls heavily explicitly

1513
01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:34,239
from Plotinus. Right, So he goes to the Eneods, and

1514
01:29:34,319 --> 01:29:35,800
I can't remember it his book four or five, but

1515
01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:37,560
like some of the sections of on the Trinity are

1516
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:40,319
literally just copied and pasted sections. So Plotinus out of

1517
01:29:40,319 --> 01:29:43,479
the Ideods, which is wild too, by the way. So

1518
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:47,159
it's a it's a work that's designed to make the

1519
01:29:47,199 --> 01:29:49,920
best case for the Trinity and the most rational case.

1520
01:29:50,079 --> 01:29:52,399
And one of the things he does is he tries

1521
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:55,920
to come up with models of the human analogy or

1522
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:59,640
the mind, or distinctions within the mind to make the

1523
01:29:59,680 --> 01:30:04,039
Trinity work too. So when a quitas and later people

1524
01:30:04,079 --> 01:30:06,840
pull from this. They're pulling largely from on the Trinity

1525
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:09,600
when they try to make the case that there's all

1526
01:30:09,640 --> 01:30:13,159
of these different ways to make the Trinity work. Orthodox

1527
01:30:13,239 --> 01:30:16,439
Christianity only goes with the cappa dootion costs something ople

1528
01:30:16,479 --> 01:30:19,800
one model. That's why you see Photius really just repeating them.

1529
01:30:20,279 --> 01:30:25,880
We don't do all these like creative analogies type moves.

1530
01:30:26,199 --> 01:30:28,359
And that's that's the only way you could even get

1531
01:30:28,399 --> 01:30:34,920
this idea of like, I mean, the Trinity, the son

1532
01:30:35,039 --> 01:30:36,840
is not a notion in the father's mind.

1533
01:30:38,159 --> 01:30:40,720
Speaker 7: Well, I don't think that's what they're I'm not entirely

1534
01:30:40,760 --> 01:30:43,119
sure what they mean by a notional act.

1535
01:30:43,199 --> 01:30:47,159
Speaker 1: Well again, it's what they mean, is the So they

1536
01:30:47,560 --> 01:30:50,640
they try to say, like you can make an analogy

1537
01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:54,920
again between a mind and a word, right, like like

1538
01:30:55,039 --> 01:31:00,239
the mind produces the word. And because the Bible on

1539
01:31:00,239 --> 01:31:02,680
one uses this analogy, right, Like, they go too far

1540
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:06,760
with absoluteizing these distinctions. But I mean, assume me these analogies.

1541
01:31:06,800 --> 01:31:12,199
Speaker 7: But so you don't think like I tried moving this

1542
01:31:12,279 --> 01:31:15,920
way with my brother, and it's a trying to catch

1543
01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:18,880
you a little bit, right, But like what if they

1544
01:31:18,880 --> 01:31:23,079
ask you a question at first, where they're like, can

1545
01:31:23,119 --> 01:31:28,079
God's actions go beyond their intended bounds? Something of that nature,

1546
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:33,359
And then when you clearly they can't, right then they're

1547
01:31:33,399 --> 01:31:36,560
just going to tell you that the reading reason begetting

1548
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:39,279
terminates where it does and doesn't can because one of

1549
01:31:39,319 --> 01:31:42,000
our charges against them, right is like, why doesn't the

1550
01:31:42,039 --> 01:31:45,199
son or the spirit also beget or spiral.

1551
01:31:47,119 --> 01:31:49,239
Speaker 5: If that's a power of the essence.

1552
01:31:49,399 --> 01:31:54,439
Speaker 7: And they they their answer seems to be that, like,

1553
01:31:55,760 --> 01:31:59,960
because the relative opposition is there's this movement from the thought.

1554
01:32:00,199 --> 01:32:03,119
It's almost like a line. There's a movement from the

1555
01:32:03,159 --> 01:32:08,880
father to the son, and that terminates in its proper effect.

1556
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:14,520
And then, because spiration is not at odds with that

1557
01:32:14,760 --> 01:32:19,000
the way paternity is, it continues onwards and then terminates

1558
01:32:19,000 --> 01:32:20,159
in its proper effect.

1559
01:32:20,359 --> 01:32:22,479
Speaker 1: Okay, what is the termination of spiration?

1560
01:32:24,239 --> 01:32:27,600
Speaker 7: The termination of spiration is the person of the spirit

1561
01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:28,319
in their view.

1562
01:32:28,520 --> 01:32:32,000
Speaker 1: Okay, then how do two people have the power of cause?

1563
01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:38,119
Speaker 7: Well, the act of spiration moves through the son. And

1564
01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:41,479
I'm saying this as they would right like, not as

1565
01:32:41,520 --> 01:32:44,279
if the son were a secondary cause, but because the

1566
01:32:44,359 --> 01:32:49,439
son receives the divine essence complete, including the notional power

1567
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:53,680
to spirrate, but he does not originate the power that

1568
01:32:53,720 --> 01:32:56,920
belongs with the Father, who's principal without principle, and he

1569
01:32:57,199 --> 01:32:59,640
exercises it together with him.

1570
01:33:00,039 --> 01:33:02,520
Speaker 1: Okay, so is there one cause or two causes in

1571
01:33:02,520 --> 01:33:03,439
the triad?

1572
01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:07,960
Speaker 7: Well, they want to say that because he's exercising the

1573
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:11,760
same exact power as the Father, that there's only one.

1574
01:33:11,880 --> 01:33:13,560
That's what they want to say. I don't know if

1575
01:33:13,560 --> 01:33:15,680
that actually works logically.

1576
01:33:15,720 --> 01:33:19,479
Speaker 1: But and again to reiterate Photius's point, does the spirit

1577
01:33:19,600 --> 01:33:20,319
have that power?

1578
01:33:22,640 --> 01:33:24,039
Speaker 5: Does the spirit have the.

1579
01:33:25,640 --> 01:33:27,920
Speaker 1: You said that the son has the exact same power

1580
01:33:27,960 --> 01:33:30,920
as the father. According to them, m hm, does the

1581
01:33:30,960 --> 01:33:32,479
spirit have that exact same power?

1582
01:33:33,439 --> 01:33:33,800
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1583
01:33:33,920 --> 01:33:34,479
Speaker 1: Okay.

1584
01:33:34,239 --> 01:33:37,720
Speaker 7: Is it because the ones that are kind of cleaved

1585
01:33:37,760 --> 01:33:40,960
off by what in their mind is a logical necessity

1586
01:33:41,079 --> 01:33:46,960
between two diet between a diet, Right, there's an opposition there.

1587
01:33:47,880 --> 01:33:50,399
Speaker 1: I don't understand what that means. Again, if the Father

1588
01:33:50,560 --> 01:33:53,560
has the power to produce a person, and that's what

1589
01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:57,520
it means to be the principal cause, and the son

1590
01:33:57,600 --> 01:34:01,760
also has that power, who is the spirit also then

1591
01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:02,399
a cause.

1592
01:34:02,159 --> 01:34:05,960
Speaker 5: Of I don't think they believe he's a cause.

1593
01:34:07,199 --> 01:34:09,479
Speaker 1: Yes, they do. The council lions in Florence say that

1594
01:34:09,520 --> 01:34:12,319
the Father and the Son together are a single principle.

1595
01:34:12,359 --> 01:34:13,319
Speaker 5: Oh, I don't.

1596
01:34:13,159 --> 01:34:15,920
Speaker 7: Believe they think the spirit is a cause of a

1597
01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:16,680
divine person.

1598
01:34:16,880 --> 01:34:19,279
Speaker 1: I know that they don't. That's what I'm asking is

1599
01:34:19,479 --> 01:34:23,000
if the power of the Father is to cause the son,

1600
01:34:23,079 --> 01:34:25,239
and that's what it means to be a cause, and

1601
01:34:25,279 --> 01:34:28,560
the son has the same power, then why does the

1602
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:29,439
spirit lack that?

1603
01:34:31,000 --> 01:34:34,800
Speaker 7: Well, the spirit lacks that because there's two notional powers

1604
01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:40,880
in their logical scheme, and essentially because God's actions terminate

1605
01:34:42,439 --> 01:34:47,079
in their proper effects and are properly actualized from eternity.

1606
01:34:47,159 --> 01:34:52,159
They think that essentially there's like this logical movement within

1607
01:34:52,199 --> 01:34:54,239
the Trinity, and in.

1608
01:34:54,119 --> 01:34:58,920
Speaker 5: Each step you lose portions. Right, you begin with paternity.

1609
01:34:58,439 --> 01:35:00,560
Speaker 1: I mean that right, there's to tell you that like

1610
01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:04,279
this is nonsense. You lose portions of this power as

1611
01:35:04,279 --> 01:35:05,920
you move to the Trinity. That's insane.

1612
01:35:05,960 --> 01:35:10,640
Speaker 7: Like well, that, well, like relative opposition bars those from

1613
01:35:10,840 --> 01:35:13,560
continuing onward in their logical.

1614
01:35:13,119 --> 01:35:16,279
Speaker 1: Movement, right, Like, I mean, how does that even follow?

1615
01:35:16,760 --> 01:35:19,359
Relative opposition is just a way to try to distinguish

1616
01:35:19,439 --> 01:35:22,680
something from being not the other two? How does it

1617
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:26,000
follow from that? That there's this diminishing power of causing

1618
01:35:26,039 --> 01:35:27,319
as it moves through the trinity.

1619
01:35:27,359 --> 01:35:29,760
Speaker 7: It's just just well, like it's not possible for my

1620
01:35:29,960 --> 01:35:33,199
son to be me, right, Like I beget my son,

1621
01:35:33,359 --> 01:35:35,600
but it's not possible for him to be.

1622
01:35:35,720 --> 01:35:37,119
Speaker 5: Me the begetter. Right.

1623
01:35:37,159 --> 01:35:39,079
Speaker 1: But the question is not does he produce you? The

1624
01:35:39,159 --> 01:35:44,560
question is does he have the power to produce? By

1625
01:35:44,600 --> 01:35:47,399
the way, is a person a notional power or a subject?

1626
01:35:47,840 --> 01:35:50,199
This is just insane, Like all this shit is just

1627
01:35:50,239 --> 01:35:53,960
like gibberish, total gibberish nonsense. I don't even know why

1628
01:35:54,039 --> 01:35:55,279
anyone would find this convincing.

1629
01:35:55,439 --> 01:35:58,680
Speaker 7: I do think it's odd to metaphysically reduce a person

1630
01:35:58,840 --> 01:36:01,560
to a relate shit rather than having it.

1631
01:36:01,560 --> 01:36:03,600
Speaker 1: It's not just odd, it's like it makes no sense

1632
01:36:03,720 --> 01:36:07,039
the word the word person is a subject, a relation

1633
01:36:07,199 --> 01:36:09,319
is a predicate. So grammar should tell you that that

1634
01:36:09,359 --> 01:36:14,720
doesn't make any sense. I'm serious, Go read I appreciate

1635
01:36:14,760 --> 01:36:17,359
your questions, but if you read Losky, he just says

1636
01:36:17,399 --> 01:36:20,319
it's not it's not even grammatically correct. What's up?

1637
01:36:20,359 --> 01:36:28,600
Speaker 8: John Greeky slotsp pull up Charard Nobody, that's what your

1638
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:32,600
The callers should recommend the person he's.

1639
01:36:32,399 --> 01:36:34,880
Speaker 5: Talking to No.

1640
01:36:35,039 --> 01:36:37,159
Speaker 1: Actually, I mean I don't disagree that that's a good

1641
01:36:37,159 --> 01:36:39,199
one for like energies. But let me let me pull

1642
01:36:39,279 --> 01:36:41,600
up the actual Losky book that addresses this specifically. I

1643
01:36:41,600 --> 01:36:42,199
have it over here.

1644
01:36:43,039 --> 01:36:49,520
Speaker 8: Well, the part where he's talking about Platinus, particularly being

1645
01:36:50,000 --> 01:36:55,199
Platinus and Aquinas, Yeah, talks about that.

1646
01:36:55,960 --> 01:37:01,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true, so most lost but to actually kind

1647
01:37:01,079 --> 01:37:03,560
of talk about some of the same stuff. But I

1648
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:08,199
think Vision of God is the one that I'm thinking of, Yeah,

1649
01:37:08,279 --> 01:37:10,880
where he goes into quite a bit of depth about

1650
01:37:10,920 --> 01:37:13,880
what we were just talking about. But if you want

1651
01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:19,520
specifically the critique of the relations of opposition, I'll link

1652
01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:26,880
this paper again. What's on your mind? John? By the way, well,

1653
01:37:27,359 --> 01:37:29,479
look all of this, I don't mean to cut you off,

1654
01:37:29,479 --> 01:37:32,319
but like people need to understand that none of this

1655
01:37:32,439 --> 01:37:35,600
is in the Cappadocians. Okay, the Cappo Doceans teach not

1656
01:37:35,720 --> 01:37:40,039
the august aniantomistic model. They teach relations of origin. And

1657
01:37:40,119 --> 01:37:43,520
it's exactly what Photius repeats in the Mystagogy. If you

1658
01:37:43,560 --> 01:37:46,000
read the Cappa Doceans in depth as I have, and

1659
01:37:46,079 --> 01:37:49,359
if you then read the Mystagogy, you realize that he's

1660
01:37:49,399 --> 01:37:52,319
really just repeating the Cappadocians. So the Orthodox Church is

1661
01:37:52,560 --> 01:37:55,399
consistently teaching what the constant and noble one, the Second

1662
01:37:55,439 --> 01:38:00,119
Ecumenical Council teaches officially about Trinitarian theology. It's the Romans

1663
01:38:00,319 --> 01:38:04,840
that has departed with all this weird philosophical scholastic speculations

1664
01:38:04,880 --> 01:38:07,239
that are not in the Cavedoceans, not anywhere in the

1665
01:38:07,279 --> 01:38:10,640
Eastern Fathers. But they'll quote mine for a similar term,

1666
01:38:10,760 --> 01:38:14,760
right where like if gregor Nissa says that they are

1667
01:38:15,560 --> 01:38:18,039
the persons are related to one another, yeah, they I

1668
01:38:18,079 --> 01:38:21,960
don't didn't disagree with relations. Really, it's not distinguishing persons

1669
01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:26,439
through relations of opposition. It's relations of origin to their

1670
01:38:26,640 --> 01:38:30,239
unique singular cause the person of the father. Every capped

1671
01:38:30,279 --> 01:38:35,439
Doocian says that the everything the father has, the son

1672
01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:39,159
has accept causality. That's their dictum. That alone tells you

1673
01:38:39,239 --> 01:38:42,520
they don't teach pillioqui. This is not that hard. I

1674
01:38:42,520 --> 01:38:44,279
know it sounds confusing if you don't know this stuff,

1675
01:38:44,279 --> 01:38:46,800
you're new to all this stuff. But it's like what

1676
01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:51,600
they say is clear, all this speculations about philosophical relations

1677
01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:54,319
of opposition. It's the Roman Catholics that are deluded in

1678
01:38:54,359 --> 01:38:56,479
confusing people with their garbage theology.

1679
01:38:56,479 --> 01:39:02,479
Speaker 5: What's up many, Yeah, but the the Cappadocians and the

1680
01:39:02,520 --> 01:39:07,359
early church fathers say the word pope. Say what they

1681
01:39:07,399 --> 01:39:08,000
say pope?

1682
01:39:09,720 --> 01:39:12,439
Speaker 1: Well, they say Alexandria to so what I know.

1683
01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:13,760
Speaker 5: They used the word pope.

1684
01:39:13,800 --> 01:39:17,520
Speaker 1: That Oh, that right, that's it.

1685
01:39:17,680 --> 01:39:21,479
Speaker 8: They used the word pope in the early Church. I

1686
01:39:21,880 --> 01:39:27,760
don't even know why anybody's arguing anything. They said the

1687
01:39:27,760 --> 01:39:32,359
word pope. Speaking of popes. Once again, this is also

1688
01:39:32,399 --> 01:39:35,920
a good time to go back to my favorite quote

1689
01:39:36,560 --> 01:39:44,039
from Pope Benedict the sixteenth. These churches have an authentic doctrine,

1690
01:39:44,039 --> 01:39:46,840
but it is static, petrified as it were, the remain

1691
01:39:47,600 --> 01:39:51,840
that remained faithful to the of the first Christian millennium.

1692
01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:55,520
But they reject the later developments on the ground that

1693
01:39:55,560 --> 01:39:57,319
the Catholics decided upon.

1694
01:39:57,159 --> 01:39:59,000
Speaker 5: These developments without them.

1695
01:40:00,159 --> 01:40:03,199
Speaker 8: For them, questions of faith can only be decided by

1696
01:40:03,199 --> 01:40:09,560
an ecumenical council, one which includes all Christians. Therefore, they

1697
01:40:09,560 --> 01:40:13,800
regard as invalid what Catholics have declared since the split.

1698
01:40:15,279 --> 01:40:18,520
Speaker 1: And is that introduction of Christ and theology of Ratzinger or.

1699
01:40:18,439 --> 01:40:21,560
Speaker 5: His other book that's the Ratzinger Report.

1700
01:40:21,720 --> 01:40:24,600
Speaker 1: Rising report. Yeah, he's got two or three versions of

1701
01:40:24,680 --> 01:40:25,359
the same statement.

1702
01:40:26,199 --> 01:40:28,760
Speaker 8: And then he says, but they cling to the idea

1703
01:40:28,960 --> 01:40:34,000
of autocephaly, according to which the churches, even if the

1704
01:40:34,239 --> 01:40:38,000
United and Faith, are also independent from one another, and

1705
01:40:38,039 --> 01:40:44,199
they cannot accept the Bishop of Rome. And once again

1706
01:40:44,239 --> 01:40:48,119
making the point is that when he's writing this in

1707
01:40:48,199 --> 01:40:52,760
nineteen eighty five, he's writing it from the perspective of, hey,

1708
01:40:53,039 --> 01:40:58,159
where the modernists and these old fuddy dudy Orthodox are.

1709
01:40:58,039 --> 01:41:02,399
Speaker 5: Still stuck in the the first thousand years. That's all

1710
01:41:02,439 --> 01:41:03,199
old stuff.

1711
01:41:03,760 --> 01:41:05,960
Speaker 8: He's not thinking ahead to where there might be a

1712
01:41:06,000 --> 01:41:09,920
time where people start to question development of doctrine as

1713
01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:14,439
being something maybe bad. So he's writing it from the

1714
01:41:14,479 --> 01:41:18,119
perspective of like, hey, I just owned you Orthodox with

1715
01:41:18,199 --> 01:41:23,000
this statement right here, you see. Yeah, And so now

1716
01:41:23,119 --> 01:41:27,479
that's turned around to bite everybody in the butt, that

1717
01:41:27,560 --> 01:41:32,079
statement alone, because that's a pope who's post Vatican two

1718
01:41:32,399 --> 01:41:35,000
saying that the Autolas Church is.

1719
01:41:35,000 --> 01:41:37,439
Speaker 5: The church of the first thousand years.

1720
01:41:40,199 --> 01:41:42,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't. I mean, I think even the other

1721
01:41:43,359 --> 01:41:48,039
you know, knowledgeable Roman Catholics will admit that. But again

1722
01:41:48,079 --> 01:41:51,600
the problem is that the normy pop apologists don't know

1723
01:41:51,640 --> 01:41:53,800
any of this stuff. They're not aware of it, and

1724
01:41:53,840 --> 01:41:55,920
they just want to gloss over it and be like, look,

1725
01:41:56,680 --> 01:41:59,159
this is just a simple position. Just accept it. Okay, Well,

1726
01:41:59,159 --> 01:42:03,720
then my position is a simple position. If we're just

1727
01:42:03,800 --> 01:42:07,640
gonna pull out simplicity, then the cabin dotionan model of

1728
01:42:07,680 --> 01:42:12,520
the triad, is simple. It's simpler than the tomistic gibberish.

1729
01:42:12,560 --> 01:42:20,800
So there we go. It's true, Cory, what's up? And I

1730
01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:22,720
don't know you've been waiting to come chat. What's on

1731
01:42:22,760 --> 01:42:23,159
your mind?

1732
01:42:25,039 --> 01:42:25,239
Speaker 5: Oh?

1733
01:42:25,279 --> 01:42:28,479
Speaker 1: By the way, I want to give this to the

1734
01:42:28,520 --> 01:42:34,479
guy that called in our buddy soul there just one second,

1735
01:42:34,560 --> 01:42:41,560
because this is the specific critique of what he was

1736
01:42:41,600 --> 01:42:44,279
calling in about. Go ahead, what's on your mind?

1737
01:42:45,640 --> 01:42:46,000
Speaker 9: What's up?

1738
01:42:46,079 --> 01:42:46,640
Speaker 5: Dog?

1739
01:42:46,960 --> 01:42:47,760
Speaker 1: What's on your mind?

1740
01:42:48,279 --> 01:42:48,520
Speaker 5: Hey?

1741
01:42:48,560 --> 01:42:50,960
Speaker 10: So I had a tweet that kind of took off

1742
01:42:51,000 --> 01:42:54,079
that actually got your attention the other day basically where

1743
01:42:54,079 --> 01:42:57,319
I had said the reason that I remain Protestant is

1744
01:42:57,399 --> 01:43:00,680
church history and why I don't become Catholic. And we

1745
01:43:00,760 --> 01:43:02,760
had this back and forth where I told you I

1746
01:43:02,800 --> 01:43:05,359
actually agree with a lot of Orthodox things, but there's

1747
01:43:05,359 --> 01:43:08,239
some stuff that prevents me from actually becoming Orthodox, and

1748
01:43:08,319 --> 01:43:10,279
you asked, well, what is it? So I came on

1749
01:43:10,319 --> 01:43:12,039
here just to bring those things up and see if

1750
01:43:12,079 --> 01:43:13,800
you helped me out a little bit, because I'd love

1751
01:43:13,840 --> 01:43:15,720
to be convinced quick back.

1752
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:17,439
Speaker 5: So I'm a Presbyterian pastor.

1753
01:43:18,880 --> 01:43:22,520
Speaker 10: I was an inquirer in twenty twenty during COVID it

1754
01:43:22,520 --> 01:43:23,560
was an OCA church.

1755
01:43:23,880 --> 01:43:25,880
Speaker 5: I ended up not joining for a couple of reasons.

1756
01:43:25,880 --> 01:43:29,479
Speaker 10: But actually some of those reasons that I had back

1757
01:43:29,520 --> 01:43:32,439
then I actually agree with now. But I'm just still

1758
01:43:32,439 --> 01:43:34,720
not all the way there, and I'm getting to the

1759
01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:37,840
point where I'm gonna have to start teaching Orthodox things

1760
01:43:37,880 --> 01:43:41,600
to Presbyterians from the pulpit because I believe them so much,

1761
01:43:41,640 --> 01:43:43,720
but there's still some things that hold me back. So

1762
01:43:44,680 --> 01:43:46,840
I'm gonna lay out my biggest thing, and I want

1763
01:43:46,840 --> 01:43:47,800
you to take over from there.

1764
01:43:47,800 --> 01:43:48,479
Speaker 5: If that's okay.

1765
01:43:49,199 --> 01:43:51,600
Speaker 1: Sure, what's the first one?

1766
01:43:52,079 --> 01:43:52,439
Speaker 5: Okay?

1767
01:43:52,479 --> 01:43:56,119
Speaker 10: So my big thing that I studied during my Master's

1768
01:43:56,159 --> 01:43:58,800
of Divinity, and pretty much every single graduate paper I

1769
01:43:58,840 --> 01:44:01,840
wrote on had to interlink Hebrews eight and nine with

1770
01:44:01,880 --> 01:44:06,520
Leviticus sixteen. Basically, how Jesus fulfills the great high priesthood

1771
01:44:06,520 --> 01:44:09,720
and his atonement is the perfect atonement as compared to

1772
01:44:09,920 --> 01:44:12,439
the atonement sacrifice and everything from Leviticus sixteen.

1773
01:44:12,600 --> 01:44:14,479
Speaker 5: Okay, so that's kind of where I'm coming from.

1774
01:44:14,840 --> 01:44:20,600
Speaker 10: And I came to the conclusion in reading Leviticus sixteen

1775
01:44:21,199 --> 01:44:24,840
that it seems like the Roman Catholic and not as much,

1776
01:44:24,880 --> 01:44:28,600
but still the Orthodox Church have a conflation of terms

1777
01:44:28,920 --> 01:44:33,920
when it comes to sacrifice and atonement to where I

1778
01:44:34,000 --> 01:44:37,760
just believe it's been bad ex to Jesus and Counsel

1779
01:44:37,800 --> 01:44:41,159
of Trent has dogmatized and made it anathema that you

1780
01:44:41,279 --> 01:44:44,399
have to believe that the masses are sacrificed. In particular,

1781
01:44:44,439 --> 01:44:46,359
they use these words that I can't get along with.

1782
01:44:46,600 --> 01:44:48,560
Speaker 5: They call it the altar of the cross. Are you

1783
01:44:48,600 --> 01:44:52,039
aware of this? The altar of the cross? Okay? So

1784
01:44:52,640 --> 01:44:55,479
the thing is is alters in the.

1785
01:44:55,439 --> 01:44:57,920
Speaker 10: Old Testament and in the New Testament are not where

1786
01:44:57,960 --> 01:45:01,439
atonement is made. So if in Mass you're going in

1787
01:45:01,520 --> 01:45:07,760
this transcendental, timeless place and you're revisiting the sacrifice, okay, cool.

1788
01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:09,359
Speaker 5: You're not getting any effects from.

1789
01:45:09,199 --> 01:45:12,079
Speaker 10: The sacrifice because the sacrifice has nothing to it. It's

1790
01:45:12,199 --> 01:45:16,640
just one step in the process of atonement. In Leviticus sixteen,

1791
01:45:17,399 --> 01:45:19,119
if you want to look at the Orthodox, sell you

1792
01:45:19,119 --> 01:45:21,680
Bible if you want to look at the NKJV. There's

1793
01:45:21,720 --> 01:45:24,000
a step by step process that the Great High Priests

1794
01:45:24,000 --> 01:45:26,920
has to go through. The Atonement is not done until

1795
01:45:26,960 --> 01:45:28,319
every step is finished.

1796
01:45:28,359 --> 01:45:30,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm not sure why you

1797
01:45:30,960 --> 01:45:34,600
think that we have to agree to Trent's definition. Why

1798
01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:38,000
are you asking me about Trent?

1799
01:45:38,159 --> 01:45:41,319
Speaker 7: Well, because because we're going to get to the liturgy

1800
01:45:41,359 --> 01:45:44,640
of the Orthodox Church, where I believe how you treat

1801
01:45:44,760 --> 01:45:46,920
the Eucharist and where all of this kind.

1802
01:45:46,760 --> 01:45:48,319
Speaker 5: Of falls apart. But this has to lead up to

1803
01:45:48,319 --> 01:45:49,199
it or it's not going to work.

1804
01:45:49,279 --> 01:45:51,039
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, So.

1805
01:45:52,640 --> 01:45:55,079
Speaker 10: First steps are the priests has to wash himself, you

1806
01:45:55,079 --> 01:45:56,199
have to put on new garments.

1807
01:45:56,399 --> 01:45:56,800
Speaker 5: Okay.

1808
01:45:57,239 --> 01:46:00,199
Speaker 10: Step number two they kill the animal out.

1809
01:46:00,159 --> 01:46:01,880
Speaker 5: Side of the tent. This is important.

1810
01:46:01,880 --> 01:46:04,359
Speaker 10: So animal is killed and the blood is shed outside

1811
01:46:04,359 --> 01:46:07,359
of the tent. Step three, they're going to take that

1812
01:46:07,479 --> 01:46:10,760
animal once it's killed, and they're going to carry it

1813
01:46:10,800 --> 01:46:13,840
to an altar, still outside of the Holy of Holy

1814
01:46:13,960 --> 01:46:15,920
so it's closer inside of the tabernation.

1815
01:46:16,720 --> 01:46:16,840
Speaker 5: Bro.

1816
01:46:17,039 --> 01:46:18,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not trying to be rude, but like

1817
01:46:18,600 --> 01:46:22,279
I'm aware of the process of how the Jewish liturgy happens.

1818
01:46:22,319 --> 01:46:24,600
But what's what's the point of this.

1819
01:46:24,560 --> 01:46:28,880
Speaker 10: Okay, atonement is not done until blood is sprinkled on

1820
01:46:29,119 --> 01:46:32,960
the hillosterion on the mercy scene. Okay, so Jesus's atonement

1821
01:46:33,079 --> 01:46:36,199
is not finished on the cross. Jesus has just done

1822
01:46:36,239 --> 01:46:39,079
his sacrifice on the cross. The atonement from what I'm

1823
01:46:39,119 --> 01:46:41,039
getting in my reading and my extra.

1824
01:46:40,880 --> 01:46:43,880
Speaker 1: Jesus, Yeah, yes, he has to ascend into heaven, right.

1825
01:46:43,840 --> 01:46:45,479
Speaker 5: Exactly correct, Yeah, I believe that.

1826
01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:46,199
Speaker 1: So what's wrong?

1827
01:46:46,439 --> 01:46:50,079
Speaker 10: Oh you do believe that? Okay, this is great, this

1828
01:46:50,159 --> 01:46:51,600
is awesome, this is going to help me out. Then,

1829
01:46:51,960 --> 01:46:54,680
So it seems to me that the Roman Catholic Church

1830
01:46:55,000 --> 01:46:58,039
skips this step. And they're saying that it's the cross,

1831
01:46:58,079 --> 01:47:01,439
where it's the altar, it's the hill, it's everything that

1832
01:47:01,520 --> 01:47:05,560
all happens at the cross, even you know, the penal

1833
01:47:05,600 --> 01:47:09,760
substitutionary atonement for the Protestant, it all happens on the cross.

1834
01:47:09,800 --> 01:47:11,399
The atonement happens on the cross. But I don't think

1835
01:47:11,439 --> 01:47:13,399
that's the case that happens in the ascension. So you're

1836
01:47:13,399 --> 01:47:14,920
saying the Eastern Orthodox.

1837
01:47:14,520 --> 01:47:17,920
Speaker 1: Teach this, Well again I don't. I mean, it's not

1838
01:47:17,960 --> 01:47:20,000
an either or, it's like all of those things are

1839
01:47:20,079 --> 01:47:25,840
necessary aspects of Christ making atonement or reconciling us to God.

1840
01:47:25,960 --> 01:47:29,319
So you can't pick out one part of it and

1841
01:47:29,359 --> 01:47:31,520
say that that's the totality of it. But there's nothing

1842
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:36,640
wrong with using terms to speak about one part that

1843
01:47:36,760 --> 01:47:39,119
encompassed the whole. That's just kind of the way language works.

1844
01:47:39,119 --> 01:47:43,079
Like you can say, you know, Christ made atonement, even

1845
01:47:43,119 --> 01:47:45,479
if you're only speaking about one aspect of it, we

1846
01:47:45,479 --> 01:47:48,159
wouldn't conclude that because one aspect of it is just

1847
01:47:48,199 --> 01:47:51,439
one aspect of it, you can't make the general term

1848
01:47:51,520 --> 01:47:53,640
about that one aspect. Does that make sense?

1849
01:47:54,279 --> 01:47:56,800
Speaker 5: I get that. So your thing you can refer to.

1850
01:47:56,640 --> 01:47:59,720
Speaker 10: The cross as the thing that atones even though in

1851
01:47:59,840 --> 01:48:02,399
real reality it was just a step in the process.

1852
01:48:02,560 --> 01:48:05,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, cool, I get that. I mean I can

1853
01:48:05,119 --> 01:48:05,640
drive with that.

1854
01:48:05,640 --> 01:48:07,399
Speaker 1: As long as that's I mean, just like, I'm trying

1855
01:48:07,399 --> 01:48:17,479
to think of other examples where you might speak this way, like, uh,

1856
01:48:17,960 --> 01:48:20,600
the arc of the Covenant, right, Like, is the arc

1857
01:48:20,640 --> 01:48:23,760
of the Covenant Jesus's human body or is it Mary

1858
01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:28,159
or is it us walking around as individual people? All three?

1859
01:48:28,279 --> 01:48:31,680
So if I call Mary the arc, that doesn't exclude

1860
01:48:32,239 --> 01:48:35,000
the other senses of it. I'm got you. That's just

1861
01:48:35,039 --> 01:48:37,079
the first thing that pops in my head as an example.

1862
01:48:37,359 --> 01:48:39,439
Speaker 10: Okay, So now so what you're gonna say then, is

1863
01:48:39,479 --> 01:48:43,199
if you know, in the liturgy, if you call it

1864
01:48:43,239 --> 01:48:47,520
an altar of sacrifice, it's it's it's technically okay, because

1865
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:50,399
when you're referencing this thing, you're you're talking about the

1866
01:48:50,479 --> 01:48:55,279
totality from beginning to end, not just yeah, okay, Well

1867
01:48:55,319 --> 01:48:56,800
that kind of changes everything there.

1868
01:48:59,039 --> 01:49:02,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not I've not heard this objection, so yeah,

1869
01:49:03,119 --> 01:49:05,880
but that's just my initial yeah response.

1870
01:49:06,039 --> 01:49:08,880
Speaker 10: It's something that came up to me, you know, in

1871
01:49:08,880 --> 01:49:11,760
my graduate work that I hadn't heard either. And you know,

1872
01:49:11,800 --> 01:49:13,960
so I think I'm just some retard who's thinking of something,

1873
01:49:14,000 --> 01:49:16,479
you know. But you know, when I look things up,

1874
01:49:16,520 --> 01:49:18,600
there's only been one other guy who's written stuff on it,

1875
01:49:18,640 --> 01:49:20,720
so it's like I'm probably the one that's wrong. But

1876
01:49:21,119 --> 01:49:23,239
when I'm looking these things up, it's, well, I can't

1877
01:49:23,239 --> 01:49:23,840
get around it.

1878
01:49:23,960 --> 01:49:26,199
Speaker 1: One thing I would say about a lot of Protestant

1879
01:49:26,279 --> 01:49:29,000
objections is that most of the time they hinge on

1880
01:49:29,760 --> 01:49:33,520
false dialectics or either ors. So it's sort of like, oh, well,

1881
01:49:33,600 --> 01:49:35,920
do you believe in grace because it sounds like you

1882
01:49:35,920 --> 01:49:39,439
believe in works. Do you believe in you know, Bible,

1883
01:49:39,520 --> 01:49:41,199
or do you believe in tradition? Sounds like you believe

1884
01:49:41,239 --> 01:49:43,279
in tradition. Like it's sort of like a lot of

1885
01:49:43,319 --> 01:49:47,560
either ores and they're usually false constructed either ors that

1886
01:49:48,039 --> 01:49:51,199
you know are based around misunderstandings of language or work

1887
01:49:51,239 --> 01:49:52,079
cause of policies.

1888
01:49:53,800 --> 01:49:56,600
Speaker 5: Okay, I can track with that. So there's gonna be

1889
01:49:56,640 --> 01:49:57,239
one more thing.

1890
01:49:57,399 --> 01:50:02,640
Speaker 10: So I agree with the orthodox view of ancestral sin.

1891
01:50:02,720 --> 01:50:04,119
Speaker 5: I do not believe in original sin.

1892
01:50:04,159 --> 01:50:06,479
Speaker 10: And I even had a pastor preach a sermon series

1893
01:50:06,520 --> 01:50:08,039
against Ballagianism because of me.

1894
01:50:09,159 --> 01:50:10,439
Speaker 1: So like, well, you're not gonna be able to be

1895
01:50:10,439 --> 01:50:11,680
a Presbyterian very long with.

1896
01:50:11,640 --> 01:50:12,880
Speaker 5: That, That's what I'm saying.

1897
01:50:12,920 --> 01:50:13,079
Speaker 1: Bro.

1898
01:50:13,239 --> 01:50:14,199
Speaker 5: So like I'm getting there.

1899
01:50:14,239 --> 01:50:17,920
Speaker 10: But anyway, so, what's up with the intinction in the liturgy?

1900
01:50:18,039 --> 01:50:20,199
Speaker 5: And and why do we choose it to go that way? Then?

1901
01:50:20,479 --> 01:50:21,840
Then take eat, take drink?

1902
01:50:24,199 --> 01:50:25,720
Speaker 1: I don't understand what what.

1903
01:50:26,039 --> 01:50:30,239
Speaker 10: So why does the so I see in scripture when

1904
01:50:30,319 --> 01:50:33,000
Jesus commands and he institutes the Lord's Supper, he says

1905
01:50:33,439 --> 01:50:34,359
take this all of.

1906
01:50:34,319 --> 01:50:36,439
Speaker 5: You and eat, and he says drink this. So he

1907
01:50:36,479 --> 01:50:38,760
says two separate things. He wants you to eat and drink.

1908
01:50:38,600 --> 01:50:43,319
Speaker 10: Separately in scripture, you know, I don't see a valid

1909
01:50:43,399 --> 01:50:46,279
reason for intinction to be the way that the Eucharus

1910
01:50:46,399 --> 01:50:55,039
is consumed. And then if you're looking at anything up

1911
01:50:55,079 --> 01:50:55,800
right now, I just want to.

1912
01:50:55,800 --> 01:50:58,560
Speaker 1: Say, like, no, I'm just again, it's not an I've

1913
01:50:58,600 --> 01:51:00,960
not heard this objection. I mean, I I think that

1914
01:51:01,000 --> 01:51:05,199
there's a lot of things about what's happening in the

1915
01:51:05,279 --> 01:51:09,199
upper room, right, because that's a it's still a passover meal, right,

1916
01:51:09,760 --> 01:51:11,880
So what's happening in the upper room is a transition

1917
01:51:12,000 --> 01:51:15,520
from the passover meal to what Jesus is instituting. So

1918
01:51:15,520 --> 01:51:18,680
there's aspects of that meal that are not necessarily going

1919
01:51:18,760 --> 01:51:22,840
to carry over into the tradition of the church. I mean,

1920
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:25,760
that would be my first inclination. It's like, it's not

1921
01:51:25,840 --> 01:51:27,800
the case that everything that happens in the Gospels or

1922
01:51:27,800 --> 01:51:31,279
even the Book of Acts is necessarily perpetually, eternally the

1923
01:51:31,319 --> 01:51:34,920
case for the history of the Church. That's why Jesus

1924
01:51:34,960 --> 01:51:42,279
didn't establish a specific ritual for the apostles. He let

1925
01:51:42,279 --> 01:51:46,680
the apostles craft a liturgical tradition for the apostolic seeds

1926
01:51:46,680 --> 01:51:50,880
that they set up. So there's probably some something that

1927
01:51:50,960 --> 01:51:54,119
happened within church history like that caused the church to

1928
01:51:54,199 --> 01:51:58,439
do this that I'm not aware of. Yeah, and you

1929
01:51:58,439 --> 01:52:00,560
you'd ask the liturgical historian that I don't know.

1930
01:52:00,840 --> 01:52:03,479
Speaker 10: I'm seeing a similar problem, you know, just speaking out

1931
01:52:03,479 --> 01:52:07,159
loud with myself as where I'm being hyper autistic about

1932
01:52:07,359 --> 01:52:09,640
the steps given in scripture. And I get it my

1933
01:52:09,640 --> 01:52:13,239
Protestant background, but it's like, if it's not detailed in

1934
01:52:13,319 --> 01:52:15,680
this order in this way, it can't be r Yeah,

1935
01:52:15,680 --> 01:52:17,199
but but there's something I'm rewired.

1936
01:52:17,279 --> 01:52:20,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's not in the New Testament a written

1937
01:52:20,359 --> 01:52:23,840
instruction of a liturgy. And you know, I keep making

1938
01:52:23,880 --> 01:52:27,119
this argument that that's on purpose because Jesus wants us

1939
01:52:27,159 --> 01:52:31,640
to trust the Apostolic tradition, and that's precisely why he

1940
01:52:31,720 --> 01:52:35,119
didn't put a divine liturgy within the Bible, Like you know,

1941
01:52:35,279 --> 01:52:37,800
in divine providence, Jesus could have ordered it to where

1942
01:52:38,239 --> 01:52:42,680
you know, Paul has an extra epistle that is the

1943
01:52:42,720 --> 01:52:45,640
worship service, and then everybody would have had easy answers

1944
01:52:45,680 --> 01:52:49,960
to you know, to their worship service procedure questions, right,

1945
01:52:50,039 --> 01:52:55,159
but there isn't one why. Well, there's some necessary reliance

1946
01:52:55,239 --> 01:52:57,880
on tradition, and that's just one example. It's not the

1947
01:52:57,880 --> 01:52:59,720
only example. I mean, the cannon itself is another one

1948
01:52:59,760 --> 01:53:02,520
of those examples. But if there's not a liturgical pattern

1949
01:53:02,520 --> 01:53:06,840
of worship, explicitly a worship service in the Bible, the

1950
01:53:06,880 --> 01:53:08,520
only other thing we could go to is traditions.

1951
01:53:08,600 --> 01:53:11,960
Speaker 10: So yeah, yeah, it was funny to me because, you know,

1952
01:53:12,159 --> 01:53:13,560
one of the main arguments I would make, and I

1953
01:53:13,560 --> 01:53:15,279
also have taken up time because I wait, it's a

1954
01:53:15,319 --> 01:53:15,640
long time.

1955
01:53:15,840 --> 01:53:17,239
Speaker 5: I'm sure other people are too.

1956
01:53:17,119 --> 01:53:19,439
Speaker 1: But let me let me one last point is just

1957
01:53:19,479 --> 01:53:28,800
that I don't think any uh, any church explicitly does

1958
01:53:29,039 --> 01:53:34,640
every single ritual or operation identical to the New Testament.

1959
01:53:35,199 --> 01:53:37,640
I know a lot of groups like Messiana, Jews or

1960
01:53:37,640 --> 01:53:39,319
people like a lot of people want to try to

1961
01:53:39,359 --> 01:53:43,079
do that, or you know, restorationist reformist movements, but I

1962
01:53:43,079 --> 01:53:46,079
don't think anybody actually does it because there's so many

1963
01:53:46,079 --> 01:53:48,520
things in the written text itself that we don't know,

1964
01:53:49,279 --> 01:53:53,079
and there's aspects that were occurring at the time of

1965
01:53:53,119 --> 01:53:55,319
the Upper Room and then into the Book of Acts

1966
01:53:55,960 --> 01:53:58,840
that were in that transition period which are literally kind

1967
01:53:58,840 --> 01:54:01,840
of impossible. In the Book of Acts, are still going

1968
01:54:01,880 --> 01:54:05,319
to the temple to pray, right, Yeah, and like, we

1969
01:54:05,359 --> 01:54:07,640
can't do that, there's no temple, so should we build

1970
01:54:07,640 --> 01:54:10,079
temples because the Book of Acts has the time. That's

1971
01:54:10,119 --> 01:54:12,079
like the logic of like evangel I'm not saying you

1972
01:54:12,079 --> 01:54:14,119
have this few, but like Evangelical pre millennials have this

1973
01:54:14,199 --> 01:54:15,880
logic of like, well, we got to do everything that

1974
01:54:16,159 --> 01:54:18,399
is happening in the Book of Acts, and there's a temple,

1975
01:54:18,439 --> 01:54:20,439
and Paul and the believers are still praying in the temple,

1976
01:54:20,560 --> 01:54:22,159
so the jew we should support the Jews to have

1977
01:54:22,199 --> 01:54:25,279
a third temple. I mean, that's ridiculous reasoning because you're

1978
01:54:25,319 --> 01:54:29,520
not understanding that the closing of that whole redemptive historical

1979
01:54:29,520 --> 01:54:32,319
period is the destruction of the Temple seventy eight is

1980
01:54:32,359 --> 01:54:34,560
a big part of this, right, So when the Temple's removed,

1981
01:54:35,319 --> 01:54:37,800
there's no more need for Jewish temple. The Orthodox Church

1982
01:54:37,840 --> 01:54:41,640
is the Jewish Temple, the true spiritual Jewish Temple, right, yes.

1983
01:54:41,520 --> 01:54:44,479
Speaker 10: Correct, Yeah, you said it exactly. It's right to call

1984
01:54:44,479 --> 01:54:45,920
me out on that too, because I am that way.

1985
01:54:45,960 --> 01:54:48,600
You know, I don't want to intink because in John

1986
01:54:48,720 --> 01:54:51,239
thirteen twenty one through twenty six, the only one who

1987
01:54:51,279 --> 01:54:53,880
intincs is Judas you know, in the King James. They

1988
01:54:53,880 --> 01:54:56,039
say the one I give the thop that's sow me

1989
01:54:56,119 --> 01:54:58,159
on in Greek. It's like a piece of bread dipped

1990
01:54:58,159 --> 01:55:00,279
in the common dish. So I'm like, cute, this is

1991
01:55:00,279 --> 01:55:00,640
the one.

1992
01:55:01,039 --> 01:55:04,079
Speaker 1: Okay, but like okay, but again, remember we're not having

1993
01:55:04,079 --> 01:55:06,960
a passover meal, Like it's not literally like we're not

1994
01:55:07,319 --> 01:55:11,800
literally redoing Jewish Passover. We're doing the new passover, right,

1995
01:55:11,840 --> 01:55:15,960
so not every aspect of Jesus's Upper Room passover meal,

1996
01:55:16,000 --> 01:55:21,359
it's going to necessarily transition into what we do. Volpe says.

1997
01:55:21,399 --> 01:55:25,239
His argument is the Orthodox do intinction because in the

1998
01:55:25,279 --> 01:55:27,680
early Church there were false converts that were stealing the

1999
01:55:27,720 --> 01:55:33,800
Eucharist to do rituals, taint nothing, twenty dollars to shut me.

2000
01:55:33,840 --> 01:55:35,520
Never mind, that was a different, different topic. But so

2001
01:55:35,560 --> 01:55:37,920
that's one response on that.

2002
01:55:39,000 --> 01:55:41,000
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, and that still happens today with black masses.

2003
01:55:41,000 --> 01:55:43,039
So I get it. Yeah, I appreciate.

2004
01:55:42,600 --> 01:55:44,560
Speaker 1: You, No, I hay great questions and feel free to

2005
01:55:44,600 --> 01:55:47,880
hop on any time. I appreciate your your questions. Corey,

2006
01:55:48,279 --> 01:55:53,279
there we go, nice cool Protestant dude. All right, we

2007
01:55:53,319 --> 01:55:56,159
got a bunch of people on the line, all got

2008
01:55:56,159 --> 01:56:01,600
what's up, dude? Hej how doing what's up?

2009
01:56:02,279 --> 01:56:03,840
Speaker 5: I just had a quick question for you.

2010
01:56:04,119 --> 01:56:07,439
Speaker 11: So a friend of mine, a Catholic friend of mine,

2011
01:56:07,439 --> 01:56:10,079
we're discussing when I'm saying them, and.

2012
01:56:10,159 --> 01:56:12,159
Speaker 5: Especially after the debate that you had with him.

2013
01:56:13,319 --> 01:56:17,560
Speaker 11: So my question is with the Council of Chelcetton the

2014
01:56:17,640 --> 01:56:21,159
canons where it talks about how clerics are pretty much

2015
01:56:21,159 --> 01:56:26,279
forbidden to participate or be involved in civil matters like

2016
01:56:26,359 --> 01:56:29,600
you know, being a civil authority for example, are.

2017
01:56:29,439 --> 01:56:31,359
Speaker 5: These councils are excuse me?

2018
01:56:31,479 --> 01:56:35,439
Speaker 11: Are those canons, especially the ones in Carthage that address this,

2019
01:56:36,119 --> 01:56:37,319
Are they reversible?

2020
01:56:37,520 --> 01:56:40,039
Speaker 5: Are they binding? And are they infallible?

2021
01:56:41,359 --> 01:56:47,279
Speaker 1: I don't believe that any any church laws are necessarily infallible.

2022
01:56:47,319 --> 01:56:50,880
I think they're normative and they're binding. And it really

2023
01:56:50,960 --> 01:56:53,640
depends on what kind of a church law. So, for example,

2024
01:56:53,680 --> 01:57:00,439
you could have a church law that relates to something

2025
01:57:00,600 --> 01:57:08,680
moral like murder. Okay, even if it's not quote infallible,

2026
01:57:09,079 --> 01:57:13,520
the principle within that canon might be unchanging because the

2027
01:57:13,600 --> 01:57:18,199
penalties or the the problems with murder never change, right.

2028
01:57:18,960 --> 01:57:21,680
But you might have a canon that deals with what

2029
01:57:21,880 --> 01:57:24,960
to do in a certain region, and over time wars

2030
01:57:25,000 --> 01:57:27,920
happen in that province or that region doesn't exist anymore,

2031
01:57:28,000 --> 01:57:30,039
So how do we keep a canon that doesn't that

2032
01:57:30,279 --> 01:57:32,359
applies to a talent that doesn't exist anymore. So, in

2033
01:57:32,399 --> 01:57:35,119
other words, it's a little more nuanced than that, depending

2034
01:57:35,199 --> 01:57:37,760
upon what the canon is dealing with. I would say,

2035
01:57:37,760 --> 01:57:42,720
in the case of specifically clerics and civil duties, the

2036
01:57:42,760 --> 01:57:48,600
canon is actually based on a theological dogmatic principle that no,

2037
01:57:48,720 --> 01:57:52,119
they can't. That could never change. You could never have

2038
01:57:52,600 --> 01:57:56,439
a situation where it's appropriate and right for clerics to

2039
01:57:56,560 --> 01:58:00,640
be civil authorities and rulers. Now that has sometimes been violated,

2040
01:58:00,680 --> 01:58:02,000
and even in the East that's.

2041
01:58:01,840 --> 01:58:06,239
Speaker 11: Happened, right right, That's that's one point that he brought up,

2042
01:58:06,279 --> 01:58:09,560
because we were talking about the pope having temporland spiritual power.

2043
01:58:10,039 --> 01:58:11,640
He also brought up and it was kind of too

2044
01:58:11,720 --> 01:58:14,560
col quay in a way, because you brought up the

2045
01:58:14,560 --> 01:58:17,000
East also having done the same thing where you had

2046
01:58:17,039 --> 01:58:23,159
bishops basically getting rid of kings or reinstating them.

2047
01:58:23,439 --> 01:58:28,039
Speaker 1: Well, that's not that's not the same thing as having

2048
01:58:28,079 --> 01:58:32,319
temporal supremacy. The Church can excommunicate a wicked ruler. So

2049
01:58:32,359 --> 01:58:33,279
what do you I don't know what you mean by

2050
01:58:33,319 --> 01:58:36,359
getting rid of them? What we mean is like there

2051
01:58:36,479 --> 01:58:41,199
there been I think like Serbian or maybe even Russian

2052
01:58:41,239 --> 01:58:44,760
bishops at times who went out into battle. Right, That's

2053
01:58:44,800 --> 01:58:48,039
not supposed to happen because that's a civil office going

2054
01:58:48,079 --> 01:58:51,840
to war, being soldiers. It's not proper for a bishop

2055
01:58:52,119 --> 01:58:55,840
to go to war. But that's not the same thing

2056
01:58:55,880 --> 01:58:59,800
as like the church. The churches who coordinates the king

2057
01:58:59,880 --> 01:59:01,960
or the emperor. So they are the one that because

2058
01:59:01,960 --> 01:59:06,680
that's a higher authority, they invest or coordinate the king.

2059
01:59:07,520 --> 01:59:10,600
That authority comes from the higher But that doesn't mean

2060
01:59:10,640 --> 01:59:14,920
that the bishops then become world rulers, right right.

2061
01:59:14,960 --> 01:59:16,800
Speaker 11: That was a point in a to them because I'm

2062
01:59:16,840 --> 01:59:20,319
saying them basically, it makes the pope, the church and

2063
01:59:20,359 --> 01:59:22,279
the state an autocrat exactly.

2064
01:59:22,439 --> 01:59:23,399
Speaker 1: That's the last paragraph.

2065
01:59:23,479 --> 01:59:25,880
Speaker 5: Yes, right, that, That's what I brought up to him.

2066
01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:28,840
And Okay, my other question is, I'll make it quick.

2067
01:59:30,279 --> 01:59:35,159
So they claim this authority, but doesn't you know, after

2068
01:59:35,279 --> 01:59:36,239
looking at doesn't the.

2069
01:59:37,960 --> 01:59:41,960
Speaker 11: Whole issue with Cypress having and being granted auto sphally

2070
01:59:42,119 --> 01:59:45,479
just destroyed the entire argument of this pope having all

2071
01:59:45,520 --> 01:59:47,399
this authority. I mean, I think that in itself, the

2072
01:59:47,520 --> 01:59:50,640
Church of Cypress does it in and that's in four hundred.

2073
01:59:50,439 --> 01:59:52,760
Speaker 1: AD, and it's a documenical council which they claim to

2074
01:59:52,840 --> 01:59:56,920
adhere to right. Correct. Yeah, it's it's like one of

2075
01:59:56,960 --> 01:59:58,239
the many kill shots. I agree.

2076
01:59:58,880 --> 01:59:59,880
Speaker 5: Okay, let's a look.

2077
02:00:00,199 --> 02:00:03,760
Speaker 1: No, there's are absolutely great questions, yeah, really solid questions. Yeah.

2078
02:00:03,760 --> 02:00:10,399
I think you know. The reason for the separation of

2079
02:00:10,720 --> 02:00:16,319
powers is precisely because of the dangers and the duties

2080
02:00:17,560 --> 02:00:22,279
involved in being a soldier or a head of state. Right,

2081
02:00:22,319 --> 02:00:26,479
And so when you get bishops and clerics as heads

2082
02:00:26,520 --> 02:00:31,159
of state, it's a nightmare. And the Church early on

2083
02:00:31,479 --> 02:00:33,520
saw that that would be a problem, and they forbade

2084
02:00:33,520 --> 02:00:37,800
it in the canons. And so just because canons are flexible,

2085
02:00:38,000 --> 02:00:40,520
we're not. We believe in the spirit of the law.

2086
02:00:40,560 --> 02:00:43,520
We're not Pharisees and Talmudus that are worshippers of the

2087
02:00:43,600 --> 02:00:46,199
letter of the law. The purpose of canon law is

2088
02:00:46,239 --> 02:00:48,720
for man's good. What does Jesus say about the Sabbath? Right?

2089
02:00:48,760 --> 02:00:50,880
The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

2090
02:00:51,199 --> 02:00:53,960
The purpose of the laws is man's good. We don't

2091
02:00:54,000 --> 02:00:57,520
worship law for the sake of law, right, And we

2092
02:00:57,600 --> 02:01:02,479
also don't dismiss Church law because were anarchists or revolutionaries.

2093
02:01:03,600 --> 02:01:08,239
So thousands of years of church law is going to

2094
02:01:08,319 --> 02:01:13,239
have to have some degree of flexibility, especially when there

2095
02:01:13,239 --> 02:01:16,279
are canons that don't make any sense anymore. Like clerics

2096
02:01:16,279 --> 02:01:20,119
can't ride a horse. Why well, because in the Middle

2097
02:01:20,119 --> 02:01:23,760
Ages that was a sign of nobility and rulership and

2098
02:01:24,319 --> 02:01:28,920
authority of the state, reinforcing the principle of the law

2099
02:01:29,000 --> 02:01:31,520
that clerics are not members of the state, they're not

2100
02:01:31,640 --> 02:01:40,039
civil rulers. It's that simple. It's not like super complex. Now,

2101
02:01:40,279 --> 02:01:43,399
there have been situations, yes, in the East and in

2102
02:01:43,439 --> 02:01:48,279
the West, where at times bishops take on temporal power,

2103
02:01:50,880 --> 02:01:54,079
and that's not ideal, it's not supposed to happen. But

2104
02:01:54,199 --> 02:01:58,600
it's not the same as the Bishop of Rome. Let's say,

2105
02:01:58,640 --> 02:02:01,119
let's take a Serbian bishop in the year twelve hundred

2106
02:02:01,119 --> 02:02:05,640
who ends up, for whatever reason, going to war against Muslims. Okay,

2107
02:02:05,760 --> 02:02:10,079
is that right? No? But did it happen? Okay? But

2108
02:02:10,199 --> 02:02:15,840
did he bind everybody to salvation for not accepting his

2109
02:02:16,640 --> 02:02:18,239
kingly power? I doubt it?

2110
02:02:19,920 --> 02:02:20,119
Speaker 12: Do you?

2111
02:02:20,319 --> 02:02:21,920
Speaker 1: I mean this is night and day like the pope

2112
02:02:21,960 --> 02:02:24,000
is literally saying like, if you don't accept me as

2113
02:02:24,000 --> 02:02:28,880
the queis outsider rock you're damned. Even a Serbian bishop

2114
02:02:28,880 --> 02:02:32,039
who goes out to fight. It's not gonna say everyone

2115
02:02:32,039 --> 02:02:34,159
who doesn't fights damned. I mean that's just this is

2116
02:02:34,159 --> 02:02:39,760
like insane levels obviously of like just arrogant pride. It's

2117
02:02:39,800 --> 02:02:45,239
it's obviously Antichrist too. Brian two dollars are their moral

2118
02:02:45,279 --> 02:02:48,079
contradictions in Rome Catholicism? I would say yes. I would

2119
02:02:48,079 --> 02:02:52,840
say the uh a morise letitia that Tim Gordon always

2120
02:02:52,920 --> 02:02:57,199
talks about is a moral contradiction in their system. For them,

2121
02:02:57,640 --> 02:03:03,199
I would say saying that the death penalty is against

2122
02:03:03,199 --> 02:03:09,279
the Gospel is a contradiction. Another one that's forgotten about that.

2123
02:03:10,239 --> 02:03:11,880
I used to use a lot, which I don't use

2124
02:03:11,880 --> 02:03:14,800
a whole lot anymore because it takes a little bit

2125
02:03:14,840 --> 02:03:20,159
of knowledge of Tomism. But I would argue that, for example,

2126
02:03:20,199 --> 02:03:23,439
Thomas think that mortal sins are mortal sins and they're

2127
02:03:23,520 --> 02:03:26,800
unchanging because they're based on what they call quote eternal law.

2128
02:03:27,439 --> 02:03:31,119
Eternal law is a reflection of the divine nature. So

2129
02:03:31,640 --> 02:03:34,119
for example, of Astoral Macaltholic, is it a mortal sin

2130
02:03:34,239 --> 02:03:39,359
to have polygamy? Yes? Okay, then how did David and

2131
02:03:39,720 --> 02:03:44,319
how did Saul? How did God gives David Saul's wives.

2132
02:03:45,279 --> 02:03:53,000
So God gave a giant mortal sin to David. Oh well,

2133
02:03:53,000 --> 02:03:54,680
that's a different time. Oh but wait a minute. You

2134
02:03:54,720 --> 02:03:57,239
said that mortal sins are mortal sins because they're based

2135
02:03:57,279 --> 02:04:00,760
on eternal law, which is based on the divine which

2136
02:04:00,800 --> 02:04:04,279
is unchanging. So how can something be not a mortal

2137
02:04:04,319 --> 02:04:06,600
sin throughout the Old Testament and now it's a mortal sin.

2138
02:04:07,239 --> 02:04:10,199
So there's this lack of flexibility again because they don't

2139
02:04:10,239 --> 02:04:13,840
have the scesce entergystinction, and because they identify the moral

2140
02:04:13,960 --> 02:04:16,319
law as equivalent to the eternal law, which is the

2141
02:04:16,319 --> 02:04:19,279
divine essence basically or based on it. So to me,

2142
02:04:19,359 --> 02:04:21,960
that's another way you could argue that. But that takes

2143
02:04:21,960 --> 02:04:24,319
a little too much thought process for these people, so

2144
02:04:24,920 --> 02:04:26,319
you might not want to. You might want to use

2145
02:04:26,359 --> 02:04:32,880
the easier examples with these people. Cody twenty dollars for

2146
02:04:32,880 --> 02:04:35,079
all these load tier arguments. Couldn't you play the mind game?

2147
02:04:37,479 --> 02:04:40,119
I couldn't play, Oh I felt, okay, I'm sorry, I

2148
02:04:40,159 --> 02:04:43,720
misread that. Cody says I fell for these low tier arguments.

2149
02:04:44,239 --> 02:04:46,720
I could not play this mind game anymore, and so

2150
02:04:46,880 --> 02:04:50,439
I was received into the Orthodox Church last week. Thank

2151
02:04:50,479 --> 02:04:52,760
you for your work. Hey Gret, glad to hear that, Cody.

2152
02:04:52,880 --> 02:04:55,680
I appreciate that. I think a lot of us have

2153
02:04:55,720 --> 02:04:58,000
been in the same situation too, where we thought the

2154
02:04:58,079 --> 02:05:01,840
initial you know, arguments for we're really strong. We got

2155
02:05:01,840 --> 02:05:04,760
into it, we spent time in it. We saw serious problems,

2156
02:05:05,560 --> 02:05:08,479
and I agree with Brian Holdsworth that it's not just

2157
02:05:08,560 --> 02:05:13,159
any old problem. It's got to be systemic level, contradictory problems.

2158
02:05:13,159 --> 02:05:16,800
I agree with them on that point. Okay, I miss

2159
02:05:16,800 --> 02:05:21,399
somebody's super chat about Philly Oquay where to go? Oh

2160
02:05:21,439 --> 02:05:27,239
taint nothing twenty dollars. Aspiration does not mean cause. Then

2161
02:05:27,279 --> 02:05:29,439
the Roman Catholic model doesn't tell us anything about the

2162
02:05:29,479 --> 02:05:32,880
origin of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, great, exactly, Like every time,

2163
02:05:33,159 --> 02:05:37,119
I think they don't understand what spiration is because they

2164
02:05:37,159 --> 02:05:40,439
think that this is the person of the spirit. They

2165
02:05:40,439 --> 02:05:46,640
think the persons are their relations and so, oh, well,

2166
02:05:46,640 --> 02:05:49,479
the spirit just is spiration. Person is relation, right, that's

2167
02:05:49,479 --> 02:05:55,880
a quittas But spiration is what produces the spirit, it's

2168
02:05:55,880 --> 02:05:59,479
not the subject himself. And that's what's confusing is that

2169
02:05:59,520 --> 02:06:03,319
they don't even understand the basics of distinguishing nature in person,

2170
02:06:03,359 --> 02:06:06,319
the trinity they don't even think of the person's as

2171
02:06:06,359 --> 02:06:09,079
three subjects or agents. Like that's how insane this is

2172
02:06:09,600 --> 02:06:11,439
and why it's so difficult to talk to them is

2173
02:06:11,479 --> 02:06:15,239
like they're not using the Cappadocian causal framework and they

2174
02:06:15,239 --> 02:06:19,560
don't understand when we use this terminology versus them, it's

2175
02:06:19,600 --> 02:06:25,800
all getting all jumbled up because it's different. It's different models.

2176
02:06:28,119 --> 02:06:31,039
Gum chewy two dollars. If the keys still rattle after

2177
02:06:31,079 --> 02:06:33,640
two thousand years, then they must work exactly. That's the

2178
02:06:33,720 --> 02:06:38,239
level of argument that we're using here. I'm really kind

2179
02:06:38,239 --> 02:06:44,399
of pissed off about this Internet because you know, I

2180
02:06:44,399 --> 02:06:46,079
I don't really understand why this is an issue. It

2181
02:06:46,079 --> 02:06:49,840
shouldn't be an issue with the internet here, but there's

2182
02:06:49,880 --> 02:06:52,079
actually like literally like the speed of the Internet is

2183
02:06:52,119 --> 02:06:55,079
like dropping right now, which is pissing me off because

2184
02:06:55,399 --> 02:07:04,680
it's not supposed to. Jose, Hey Dreck, can you hear me?

2185
02:07:06,359 --> 02:07:09,239
Speaker 5: Yeah? I just got a quick question for you. So

2186
02:07:09,279 --> 02:07:10,720
I just started a book recently.

2187
02:07:10,800 --> 02:07:14,399
Speaker 13: It's called Antichrist and the Fulfillment of Globalization.

2188
02:07:14,800 --> 02:07:15,880
Speaker 5: I founded on Amazon.

2189
02:07:15,960 --> 02:07:18,760
Speaker 13: It's been pretty interesting read so far.

2190
02:07:19,720 --> 02:07:23,079
Speaker 1: But is that the first Davis guy, the Orthodox guy.

2191
02:07:24,920 --> 02:07:25,680
Speaker 5: GM Davis.

2192
02:07:25,760 --> 02:07:29,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's Orthox. Yeah, I didn't.

2193
02:07:28,800 --> 02:07:31,119
Speaker 13: Know if he was or not, but it was clear

2194
02:07:31,159 --> 02:07:34,119
in the beginning that he was writing it for that perspective,

2195
02:07:34,279 --> 02:07:38,000
as opposed to Protestant or Catholic. But I don't know

2196
02:07:38,039 --> 02:07:40,239
if you've read it, but I'm about sixty eight pages

2197
02:07:40,279 --> 02:07:42,399
in and he's doing a great job pretty much.

2198
02:07:43,239 --> 02:07:45,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought the chapter, I've read some of it,

2199
02:07:45,640 --> 02:07:48,800
maybe three chapters. The chapter's critique and Puritanism and all

2200
02:07:48,800 --> 02:07:49,680
that stuff was really good.

2201
02:07:52,119 --> 02:07:54,039
Speaker 13: Well, I know you're pretty well read on some of

2202
02:07:54,079 --> 02:07:56,960
the Church Fathers and everything, and a good part of

2203
02:07:56,960 --> 02:08:00,359
the first portion of this book it's just making a

2204
02:08:00,439 --> 02:08:07,279
part different Church Fathers quotes about what the different characteristics

2205
02:08:07,439 --> 02:08:10,520
of the Antichrist would be. And so I don't know

2206
02:08:10,560 --> 02:08:12,720
before I finish the rest of the book, do you

2207
02:08:12,880 --> 02:08:15,680
have anything you can pick off the top of your

2208
02:08:15,680 --> 02:08:18,920
head from Church Fathers that you've read it about, or

2209
02:08:19,479 --> 02:08:21,399
I don't know things that you might know about the

2210
02:08:21,600 --> 02:08:23,279
characteristics of the Antichrist.

2211
02:08:23,760 --> 02:08:26,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a little book put out by Jordanville Monastery

2212
02:08:26,399 --> 02:08:30,000
called Aposse and Antichrist, and it's about sixty pages and

2213
02:08:30,039 --> 02:08:32,039
it has a whole section on exactly what you're asking

2214
02:08:32,079 --> 02:08:34,560
for the Only problem is that it's sometimes it's hard

2215
02:08:34,600 --> 02:08:36,960
to find in print. But if you go to YouTube,

2216
02:08:37,399 --> 02:08:39,720
there was a guy who read the entire sixty page

2217
02:08:39,720 --> 02:08:43,039
thing in a series of videos. Just type in Orthodox

2218
02:08:43,239 --> 02:08:48,039
or Aposse Antichrist, Orthodox and it'll come up. It's really good. Yohannis,

2219
02:08:48,119 --> 02:09:03,239
what's up man, I'm mute.

2220
02:09:07,399 --> 02:09:10,239
Speaker 5: A mister Dyer, thank younglish. I don't know if the

2221
02:09:10,279 --> 02:09:11,560
other speaker was finished speaking.

2222
02:09:12,840 --> 02:09:16,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was, all right, so glitch on my end.

2223
02:09:16,760 --> 02:09:19,640
Speaker 7: All right, So I'm coming from the SSPX side of things,

2224
02:09:19,640 --> 02:09:22,399
been a category in for about two years, and I'm

2225
02:09:22,520 --> 02:09:26,319
having trouble still seeing the way comedian functions.

2226
02:09:28,199 --> 02:09:32,319
Speaker 1: Hold on, you're a orthodoxed catecumen or you're an SSPX person.

2227
02:09:33,399 --> 02:09:36,960
Speaker 5: No, no, no, Orthodox catechuman. I'm coming out of the.

2228
02:09:37,039 --> 02:09:40,199
Speaker 1: SSPR Okay, okay, yeah, So.

2229
02:09:41,920 --> 02:09:48,279
Speaker 10: Of course I see the discrepancies that the Roman Catholic

2230
02:09:48,319 --> 02:09:52,039
comedian model poses, the way heresy affects.

2231
02:09:51,600 --> 02:09:54,199
Speaker 11: The complete capitulation of that comedian.

2232
02:09:56,159 --> 02:10:00,319
Speaker 7: Now the Orthodoxy, of course, there's this current situation.

2233
02:10:00,079 --> 02:10:02,680
Speaker 5: With Ukraine and uh well.

2234
02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:07,239
Speaker 7: Russia mostly on patriot content and noble So what's a

2235
02:10:07,359 --> 02:10:10,039
section or how is communium preserved in.

2236
02:10:10,039 --> 02:10:10,960
Speaker 5: A situation like this.

2237
02:10:11,880 --> 02:10:14,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you look in the early Church, there's

2238
02:10:14,119 --> 02:10:19,279
many parallels and analogous to the situation of the patriarchal schism.

2239
02:10:19,720 --> 02:10:21,560
There's a book on this that was put out by

2240
02:10:22,600 --> 02:10:26,439
Jordanville as well, and I've done some podcasts in the past.

2241
02:10:27,399 --> 02:10:30,600
So I mean, you've got the Accacion schism, You've got

2242
02:10:30,600 --> 02:10:35,319
the Malician schism, which was again with Rome. So having

2243
02:10:35,359 --> 02:10:40,279
these such aschisms isn't a defeater when it's normal in

2244
02:10:40,399 --> 02:10:43,000
church history. It's not good, but it's normal in church history.

2245
02:10:43,680 --> 02:10:46,720
So uh yeah, just check those things out. Demon Hunter.

2246
02:10:46,800 --> 02:10:49,359
What's that man? By the way, guys, if you want

2247
02:10:49,359 --> 02:10:51,800
to the Church Papsy Schism book, we did a whole

2248
02:10:51,800 --> 02:10:58,079
podcast on that. I forgot it's right here, the Scharard book.

2249
02:10:58,199 --> 02:11:01,479
So if you're interested in church papsy Schism, highly recommend it.

2250
02:11:01,479 --> 02:11:04,159
It's not very long, it's only about one hundred page book,

2251
02:11:04,239 --> 02:11:07,279
but we have a podcast on it there. I'm not

2252
02:11:07,279 --> 02:11:09,560
gonna have time to do the whole Joel Heschmeyer video,

2253
02:11:09,960 --> 02:11:13,319
but it's okay because Alex Soren's whole video is pretty

2254
02:11:13,359 --> 02:11:16,439
much refutes all the arguments in it. We will probably

2255
02:11:16,479 --> 02:11:22,960
finish the Brian Holsworth video. What's up, man, demon? What's up?

2256
02:11:23,760 --> 02:11:30,039
Speaker 5: Hi? Bro? I'm I'm Orthodox Christian. I have one question.

2257
02:11:30,239 --> 02:11:34,560
Speaker 12: I'm a little bit unsure about one specific topic.

2258
02:11:35,199 --> 02:11:40,279
Speaker 9: Okay, how do we differentiate what is a holy.

2259
02:11:40,039 --> 02:11:43,399
Speaker 5: Tradition and recognized church history?

2260
02:11:45,000 --> 02:11:45,520
Speaker 12: I mean.

2261
02:11:47,359 --> 02:11:49,159
Speaker 1: Recognized church history? What do you mean?

2262
02:11:50,640 --> 02:11:56,159
Speaker 9: For example, we have many stories about a life of saints,

2263
02:11:56,399 --> 02:12:06,640
ther mission of Most Mary John Apostle and said, and uh.

2264
02:12:07,039 --> 02:12:08,079
Speaker 5: This is what we believe.

2265
02:12:08,159 --> 02:12:11,640
Speaker 12: That's a that's within the sacred holy tradition.

2266
02:12:12,520 --> 02:12:16,760
Speaker 9: And also another church.

2267
02:12:16,680 --> 02:12:22,319
Speaker 12: History about ecumenical councils and and everything that and the

2268
02:12:22,319 --> 02:12:27,760
writings of some patristics about Urineus and Antioch, and that's.

2269
02:12:27,520 --> 02:12:32,560
Speaker 9: A that's a somehow scholastically approved. How do we how

2270
02:12:32,560 --> 02:12:33,479
do we difference?

2271
02:12:33,520 --> 02:12:36,680
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking your

2272
02:12:36,680 --> 02:12:41,520
as scholasticism, life is all over the place, man, Andreas?

2273
02:12:41,560 --> 02:12:41,720
Speaker 5: What was.

2274
02:12:53,439 --> 02:12:54,720
Speaker 1: I'm you? Andres?

2275
02:12:56,279 --> 02:12:56,840
Speaker 5: Hey, what's up?

2276
02:12:56,920 --> 02:12:58,680
Speaker 1: J what's talking about?

2277
02:12:59,840 --> 02:13:03,600
Speaker 14: I had a quick question, so I'll watching your video that.

2278
02:13:03,520 --> 02:13:05,720
Speaker 5: You did to a convert to the conversation you had

2279
02:13:05,760 --> 02:13:08,920
with Stephen Mueller Stephen Mayfler.

2280
02:13:08,760 --> 02:13:09,479
Speaker 6: I don't know his name.

2281
02:13:10,960 --> 02:13:20,039
Speaker 14: Aout Yeah, Muffler, Yeah, Stephen Muffler, Yes, the atheist Stephen Muffler.

2282
02:13:21,239 --> 02:13:21,479
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2283
02:13:21,520 --> 02:13:24,239
Speaker 14: So I senior guys as a conversation, and I got

2284
02:13:24,319 --> 02:13:28,000
kind of held up on the whole seven coconuts and

2285
02:13:28,079 --> 02:13:32,079
that the way I took it was that we can't

2286
02:13:32,079 --> 02:13:35,560
do I mean, the concept of seven is not external.

2287
02:13:36,600 --> 02:13:39,439
I was kind of lost in that that, you know,

2288
02:13:39,520 --> 02:13:40,720
if you could explain that part.

2289
02:13:42,520 --> 02:13:49,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I was arguing that you can't equate seven

2290
02:13:49,920 --> 02:13:53,520
to the molecules that make up coconuts. Seven has to

2291
02:13:53,520 --> 02:13:55,680
be something more than that. So basically I'm just pulling

2292
02:13:55,680 --> 02:13:59,960
from uh Plato, ancient Platonic arguments and the dialogues about

2293
02:14:01,520 --> 02:14:04,359
you can't you can't have these reductionist approaches to give

2294
02:14:04,399 --> 02:14:07,920
an account for things like concepts, ideas, and numbers because

2295
02:14:08,000 --> 02:14:14,479
they seem to have universal, universal, immaterial invariant qualities and

2296
02:14:15,239 --> 02:14:18,800
that's not explained by materialism very well or not at all.

2297
02:14:19,319 --> 02:14:22,279
So that's what I was arguing because Stefan seemed to

2298
02:14:22,319 --> 02:14:29,039
just equate universals with matter, and anybody who equates universal

2299
02:14:29,039 --> 02:14:32,159
with matter has a lot of philosophical problems. So that's

2300
02:14:32,159 --> 02:14:35,800
what I was worrying. Here is Alex Soren's video responding

2301
02:14:35,840 --> 02:14:40,279
to Joel Heshmeier and then I'm going to finish with

2302
02:14:40,399 --> 02:14:45,399
the response to Brian Holdsworth. Let's see extra what's up.

2303
02:14:50,199 --> 02:14:55,319
Speaker 15: Hello, Hey, hey Jay, I just want to say congratulations

2304
02:14:55,319 --> 02:14:57,239
on your big win against Gordon.

2305
02:14:56,960 --> 02:14:57,439
Speaker 5: The other day.

2306
02:14:58,840 --> 02:14:59,359
Speaker 1: Thanks Matt.

2307
02:15:00,359 --> 02:15:02,239
Speaker 5: And I was just.

2308
02:15:02,279 --> 02:15:04,800
Speaker 15: Wondering if I could take a few seconds to like

2309
02:15:05,039 --> 02:15:07,399
expound on something you said earlier that I thought was

2310
02:15:08,239 --> 02:15:12,720
kind of important. Okay, sure, So, Like something I've noticed

2311
02:15:12,800 --> 02:15:15,840
is a lot of like Tradcats and Roman Catholics do

2312
02:15:15,960 --> 02:15:20,600
this thing where they kind of like argue for like

2313
02:15:20,720 --> 02:15:23,720
the papacy, but they never like they say like these

2314
02:15:23,800 --> 02:15:24,920
quote minds and stuff, and.

2315
02:15:24,880 --> 02:15:28,039
Speaker 5: It's like they never argue for the temporal supremacy.

2316
02:15:28,079 --> 02:15:32,840
Speaker 15: And I was listening to your thing about Gladio and

2317
02:15:32,880 --> 02:15:34,399
I went and picked up the book and I started

2318
02:15:34,399 --> 02:15:36,439
reading it, like I got five chapters in when it

2319
02:15:36,439 --> 02:15:39,439
starts talking about the Freemasons and all that, and it's

2320
02:15:39,680 --> 02:15:43,640
I don't understand how you could justify this with what

2321
02:15:43,760 --> 02:15:47,039
the first millennium of the churches, And like, I've never

2322
02:15:47,119 --> 02:15:47,960
heard of Roman.

2323
02:15:47,760 --> 02:15:49,039
Speaker 5: Catholic address it right.

2324
02:15:49,640 --> 02:15:52,199
Speaker 15: It's they just handwave it or too quotely and say, well,

2325
02:15:52,199 --> 02:15:55,680
the KGB bishops are, and it's just I just can't

2326
02:15:55,960 --> 02:15:57,960
even like, I feel like that's kind of the straw

2327
02:15:57,960 --> 02:16:00,439
that broke the camel's back on this whole eight of

2328
02:16:01,159 --> 02:16:05,760
Orthodox and Catholicism. Just that, and then also that the

2329
02:16:05,800 --> 02:16:07,960
news the thing you were talking about recently.

2330
02:16:08,560 --> 02:16:11,600
Speaker 5: With I forget what that document was called, but it's

2331
02:16:11,640 --> 02:16:13,239
where it's like the Marxist.

2332
02:16:14,960 --> 02:16:16,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, this one is crazy.

2333
02:16:16,600 --> 02:16:20,359
Speaker 15: They're like saying, they're saying, it's like, we don't there's

2334
02:16:20,399 --> 02:16:23,439
no like no politics in the church basically, and then

2335
02:16:23,479 --> 02:16:29,119
they expouse Marxism stuff, and it's like it's so first

2336
02:16:29,119 --> 02:16:34,680
we're fighting communism in Gladiola and funneling drug money, and

2337
02:16:34,719 --> 02:16:39,280
now we're pushing Marxism and but there's no politics in

2338
02:16:39,319 --> 02:16:42,600
the church. It's just it's so silly. I don't understand it.

2339
02:16:42,600 --> 02:16:44,559
Has any Roman Catholic ever addressed this.

2340
02:16:44,680 --> 02:16:47,399
Speaker 5: It's so it's not yet, it's so stupid it is.

2341
02:16:48,319 --> 02:16:51,920
Speaker 1: I'm still waiting. I'd like to see some kind of

2342
02:16:52,280 --> 02:16:55,520
debate discussion on this, because I think it's another kill shot.

2343
02:16:56,040 --> 02:16:58,280
The only problem with this kill shot is that, like

2344
02:16:58,360 --> 02:17:00,399
you said, like you kind of have to read the

2345
02:17:00,399 --> 02:17:02,239
gladiol book and none of them are going to do it.

2346
02:17:02,760 --> 02:17:08,280
So it's just like it doesn't achieve much of its

2347
02:17:08,319 --> 02:17:10,799
effect when they won't look at the material.

2348
02:17:10,600 --> 02:17:13,399
Speaker 15: Like and like they pretend to be this like it's

2349
02:17:13,440 --> 02:17:16,280
like this based church thing, when it's the CIA is

2350
02:17:16,280 --> 02:17:17,399
completely infiltrated.

2351
02:17:17,520 --> 02:17:20,000
Speaker 5: It's they've picked all these popes. It's so silly. I

2352
02:17:20,040 --> 02:17:21,600
don't get it.

2353
02:17:21,600 --> 02:17:25,600
Speaker 1: It's a thing. It's the it's the church in their

2354
02:17:25,639 --> 02:17:29,559
head that they want to be the case based on

2355
02:17:29,719 --> 02:17:33,000
how they interpret and reconstruct various books and Texans and

2356
02:17:33,280 --> 02:17:35,440
ways that they like exactly, and it's nothing to do

2357
02:17:35,520 --> 02:17:38,000
with the actual on the ground church in Rome, which

2358
02:17:38,079 --> 02:17:40,559
is the one that's Oh, by the way, guys, did

2359
02:17:40,600 --> 02:17:43,040
you see that they're hosting a giant gay event.

2360
02:17:44,239 --> 02:17:46,079
Speaker 15: I was about to bring that up also, and then

2361
02:17:46,280 --> 02:17:49,040
like cope, respector and all those people are saying like, well,

2362
02:17:49,079 --> 02:17:50,600
they didn't prove it, and it's like.

2363
02:17:50,520 --> 02:17:53,079
Speaker 1: They're hosting the what are you talking about? They could

2364
02:17:53,120 --> 02:17:55,520
they could immediately excommunicate James.

2365
02:17:55,159 --> 02:17:59,040
Speaker 5: Martin and it's like this's on their calendar. It's all this.

2366
02:17:59,200 --> 02:18:02,440
Speaker 15: It's like, well they're not, they haven't specifically endorsed it.

2367
02:18:02,600 --> 02:18:04,600
And then they like shift the goalpost when they get

2368
02:18:04,600 --> 02:18:07,399
called out and it's just it's so stupid. I just

2369
02:18:07,440 --> 02:18:09,959
can't do this double think in Rome.

2370
02:18:10,159 --> 02:18:13,479
Speaker 1: Right, were you previously Roman Catholic or no? I was.

2371
02:18:13,559 --> 02:18:16,719
Speaker 15: I was raised Baptist, but I was kind of I've

2372
02:18:16,719 --> 02:18:18,559
been doing for like the past six months. I'm an

2373
02:18:18,639 --> 02:18:22,399
Orthodox catechum in now, but I was doing like I'm

2374
02:18:22,399 --> 02:18:25,159
in between Orthodox and Catholicism. But this this stuff on

2375
02:18:25,280 --> 02:18:27,760
Gladio is just kind of the kill shot in my opinion, Like,

2376
02:18:27,799 --> 02:18:31,159
I can't it's either atheism or Orthodoxy at this point.

2377
02:18:32,959 --> 02:18:37,639
Speaker 1: So yeah, I appreciate that, and uh yeah, stick to

2378
02:18:38,000 --> 02:18:42,159
checking out the Yakoubian memoirs. I think that's what you

2379
02:18:42,239 --> 02:18:44,840
need to read, as I detect a little bit of

2380
02:18:44,879 --> 02:18:48,079
too much of a white voice there. You need a

2381
02:18:48,120 --> 02:18:50,719
little more cream in your coffee, I mean coffee and

2382
02:18:50,760 --> 02:18:56,120
your cream. Vatican will host a LGBTQ plus event next

2383
02:18:56,200 --> 02:19:02,159
week welcoming and together with Pope Leo. There will be prayers.

2384
02:19:02,879 --> 02:19:06,120
But don't worry. It's trad it's based because it's run

2385
02:19:06,159 --> 02:19:11,520
by James Martin. Yeah, Brian, five dollars, thank you Jay.

2386
02:19:12,319 --> 02:19:16,360
For the moral law contradictions aspect, it seems like contracepting

2387
02:19:16,600 --> 02:19:21,479
is part of their Dalla script. Yeah, except that if

2388
02:19:21,520 --> 02:19:25,520
you watch the Ubi Petris on Divorce Andary Marriage documentary

2389
02:19:25,600 --> 02:19:30,040
ended the interview with Ubi Petris and doctor David Bradshaw

2390
02:19:30,159 --> 02:19:33,079
on that it's actually really good and enlightening too. It's

2391
02:19:33,079 --> 02:19:35,959
too much to go into with like their natural law

2392
02:19:36,040 --> 02:19:40,479
theory position when it comes to because the real reason

2393
02:19:40,479 --> 02:19:44,040
that they're against contraception and all this stuff is the

2394
02:19:44,159 --> 02:19:49,360
tomistic arguments about the tlose of body parts. And I

2395
02:19:49,440 --> 02:19:52,559
kid you not, this is actually what leads them. I'm

2396
02:19:52,719 --> 02:19:54,600
not joking when I say this. Nobody believes me to

2397
02:19:54,680 --> 02:19:58,760
look it up. This is what leads them to say

2398
02:19:58,920 --> 02:20:07,639
that I n ceest is not as bad as m

2399
02:20:07,680 --> 02:20:09,600
A S tu r b A t I O N

2400
02:20:12,120 --> 02:20:18,079
So you jerking is worse than sleeping with your mom

2401
02:20:18,159 --> 02:20:20,959
or your sister in Roman cality moral theology, I'm not kidding.

2402
02:20:22,879 --> 02:20:26,840
That's their position, and these are the moral high ground people.

2403
02:20:26,920 --> 02:20:28,840
And you wonder why there are a bunch of PDF

2404
02:20:29,120 --> 02:20:32,639
creeps fuel my fire. Five dollars. Stream is actually smooth today,

2405
02:20:32,639 --> 02:20:34,280
I'm enjoining it. I don't know how the stream is

2406
02:20:34,319 --> 02:20:36,959
smooth with the way that the internet is acting weird

2407
02:20:37,000 --> 02:20:40,559
as hell. I don't know what's going on, but I'm

2408
02:20:40,600 --> 02:20:42,639
glad it's working smooth. It's not coming up well for

2409
02:20:42,760 --> 02:20:51,360
me though, Yashi five dollars. I grew up Protestant. The

2410
02:20:51,399 --> 02:20:53,920
more I study, I see more points towards Orthodoxy. I'm

2411
02:20:53,920 --> 02:20:55,639
still learning, but I plan to go The liturgy or

2412
02:20:55,719 --> 02:21:00,319
content has been helpful. Thank you, Yosh. Appreciate that I

2413
02:21:00,399 --> 02:21:03,799
make sure did miss super chests over here on stream labs.

2414
02:21:03,879 --> 02:21:07,440
Luigi got shrooms. Ten dollars. Will the argument against solid

2415
02:21:07,440 --> 02:21:10,879
scriptura apply to Orthodox bishops who are arguing over scripture.

2416
02:21:10,959 --> 02:21:14,239
It's a genuine question. I'm trying to find out the truth. Sorry,

2417
02:21:14,360 --> 02:21:17,239
the stupid question. It's not a stupid question. Let me

2418
02:21:17,239 --> 02:21:18,760
see if I can figure it out. Would the argument

2419
02:21:18,840 --> 02:21:25,479
against solo scriptura apply to two bishops arguing over scripture?

2420
02:21:27,479 --> 02:21:30,159
The argument against well, the argument against solar scriptura is

2421
02:21:30,239 --> 02:21:35,280
basically manifold. It's that you need tradition to know authorship

2422
02:21:36,159 --> 02:21:41,760
to know the canon. And would that would a tradition

2423
02:21:41,920 --> 02:21:45,719
apply to two bishops arguing over I guess you mean yeah,

2424
02:21:45,959 --> 02:21:48,239
I think yes. Like if you're saying, like, if two

2425
02:21:48,399 --> 02:21:52,559
Orthodox bishops disagreed over the interpretation of a text, would

2426
02:21:52,680 --> 02:21:57,040
tradition kind of supersede. Yes, I think that's what you're saying,

2427
02:21:57,079 --> 02:21:59,840
and I'll be inclined to say yes if that's if

2428
02:21:59,879 --> 02:22:03,280
I understanding the question correctly. Voll truro five dollars. I

2429
02:22:03,399 --> 02:22:06,799
requested to speak. I'm sorry if I missed you. You

2430
02:22:06,920 --> 02:22:12,479
want to come back. If I missed you, try again, Harry.

2431
02:22:17,600 --> 02:22:23,079
Speaker 16: Hello, Yeah, So my name's Harrison. I'm just kind of

2432
02:22:23,159 --> 02:22:25,760
new to your channel. I got watched your debate with

2433
02:22:26,079 --> 02:22:29,680
Nick Flintes and then I watched you Hodge Twins podcast.

2434
02:22:29,799 --> 02:22:32,959
Speaker 3: But I just I'm not too familiar with your stuff.

2435
02:22:32,959 --> 02:22:34,399
Speaker 16: But I wonder how you kind of got into the

2436
02:22:34,479 --> 02:22:38,799
rabbit hole of ethan Eastern Orthodox and where I should start,

2437
02:22:38,799 --> 02:22:41,399
because I mean me personally haven't even read the Bible.

2438
02:22:41,520 --> 02:22:43,559
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that's cool. I mean I got into this

2439
02:22:43,680 --> 02:22:48,760
stuff because in when I was early college, right out

2440
02:22:48,760 --> 02:22:54,079
of right out of high school, I got interested in apologetics, debates, philosophy.

2441
02:22:54,399 --> 02:22:58,879
So I studied philosophy and film theory and whatnot in college.

2442
02:23:00,760 --> 02:23:04,239
Studied more of that literature and philosophy in grad school,

2443
02:23:04,680 --> 02:23:06,799
but I continued to have an interest in theology and

2444
02:23:06,879 --> 02:23:09,920
church history and church fathers and so it's just kind

2445
02:23:09,959 --> 02:23:11,719
of stuff I've been into for I don't know, the

2446
02:23:11,840 --> 02:23:15,280
last twenty plus years, twenty five years, since about the

2447
02:23:15,360 --> 02:23:21,479
year two thousand. But like the pathway into Orthodoxy was

2448
02:23:21,600 --> 02:23:25,559
kind of a long route through leaving Protestantism for Catholicism

2449
02:23:25,680 --> 02:23:27,959
into the year two thousand, I think two thousand and one,

2450
02:23:28,079 --> 02:23:31,239
somewhere in maybe two thousand and three, I think, so

2451
02:23:31,319 --> 02:23:33,959
as Catholic for eight nine, ten years somewhere in there.

2452
02:23:34,079 --> 02:23:37,920
I went to Latin Mass for many years tradcat SSPX attendee,

2453
02:23:39,319 --> 02:23:42,520
and then I had a hard time making that work,

2454
02:23:42,600 --> 02:23:45,799
and that led me into looking at Orthodoxy back in

2455
02:23:45,840 --> 02:23:48,760
two thousand and seven. I didn't convert, though, because I

2456
02:23:48,799 --> 02:23:50,799
had a lot of hang ups, a lot of hesitations,

2457
02:23:52,079 --> 02:23:56,959
so ended up converting Orthodoxy ultimately in twenty seventeen. But

2458
02:23:57,040 --> 02:24:00,760
I studied it for many, many years. So orthodox route

2459
02:24:00,799 --> 02:24:03,680
was kind of a long winding route through different ideas

2460
02:24:03,719 --> 02:24:06,600
and positions, and I basically studied it for ten years

2461
02:24:06,639 --> 02:24:07,360
before I converted.

2462
02:24:08,319 --> 02:24:09,040
Speaker 5: Gotcha, Okay?

2463
02:24:09,079 --> 02:24:11,319
Speaker 17: Yeah? The only reason I asked is I'm a Lutheran

2464
02:24:11,479 --> 02:24:14,159
by you know, way of birth, I guess, but I'm

2465
02:24:14,479 --> 02:24:16,440
barely even know my own position and I'm just kind

2466
02:24:16,440 --> 02:24:19,319
of getting into this whole world of yeah, Christianity, I guess,

2467
02:24:19,319 --> 02:24:20,440
so I just just wanted to ask that.

2468
02:24:20,719 --> 02:24:22,840
Speaker 1: I would say, if you're interested in the Orthodox position,

2469
02:24:23,000 --> 02:24:25,799
I would start with something like the icon Documentary, which

2470
02:24:25,879 --> 02:24:29,000
is a three hour, seven part documentary on the history

2471
02:24:29,000 --> 02:24:32,319
of iconography and the Orthodox Church. So it's kind of

2472
02:24:32,360 --> 02:24:36,639
a unique, interesting way to go about looking at a

2473
02:24:36,760 --> 02:24:39,280
church history. I would get an Orthodox study Bible if

2474
02:24:39,319 --> 02:24:41,000
you were if you wanted to start reading the Bible.

2475
02:24:42,360 --> 02:24:44,559
It's probably the best study Bible out there. And then

2476
02:24:44,840 --> 02:24:49,360
you know, just check out good Orthodox content creators, Christian logos.

2477
02:24:49,399 --> 02:24:54,799
What's up. Father Deacon Nis is great, he's got good

2478
02:24:54,879 --> 02:24:57,559
philosophy stuff. What's up man?

2479
02:24:58,879 --> 02:24:59,079
Speaker 3: Yeah?

2480
02:24:59,200 --> 02:25:03,879
Speaker 6: Hey, I had got on father Deacon Doctor Antonius's live

2481
02:25:03,959 --> 02:25:06,959
stream on philosophy a while and we had we had

2482
02:25:06,959 --> 02:25:10,120
a discussion on this and we went kind of in depth,

2483
02:25:10,159 --> 02:25:12,559
and I want to kind of hear your take on

2484
02:25:12,760 --> 02:25:15,600
this and maybe if it would be a valuable approach.

2485
02:25:16,159 --> 02:25:19,479
But when I was studying your tag, and especially as

2486
02:25:19,559 --> 02:25:25,200
tag relates to absolute divine simplicity, I stumbled across two fallacies,

2487
02:25:25,280 --> 02:25:30,040
which were the reification fallacy and the anthropomorphis fallacy.

2488
02:25:29,959 --> 02:25:33,479
Speaker 5: And I started playing around with those in combination to.

2489
02:25:33,600 --> 02:25:37,319
Speaker 6: A critique with kind of an ADS view, you know,

2490
02:25:37,440 --> 02:25:41,760
a platonic view, and I saw, you know, and this

2491
02:25:41,879 --> 02:25:43,959
is where I'd like to hear your opinion, as I

2492
02:25:44,000 --> 02:25:46,680
saw a lot of value in using those in accordance

2493
02:25:46,760 --> 02:25:51,799
with TAG, because the reification fallacy would be treating abstract

2494
02:25:51,920 --> 02:25:56,799
concepts either a you know, as if they're not in hypostatics,

2495
02:25:57,040 --> 02:25:59,799
but also treating them as if they have causal relations

2496
02:25:59,840 --> 02:26:03,440
to this world without justifying them appropriately. And then the

2497
02:26:03,479 --> 02:26:07,040
anthropomorphic fallacy kind of critiques the opposite end, where it's

2498
02:26:07,159 --> 02:26:10,920
like reading in too much into the divine from from

2499
02:26:11,079 --> 02:26:15,159
the anthropology of creation, and in those in those, you know,

2500
02:26:15,280 --> 02:26:20,000
those in combination seem to kind of necessitate a a

2501
02:26:20,200 --> 02:26:25,079
nature and hypothesis distinction and an essence energy distinction.

2502
02:26:25,200 --> 02:26:28,360
Speaker 5: And I was wondering what maybe your take on that

2503
02:26:28,440 --> 02:26:29,680
would be, or what your opinion on.

2504
02:26:29,719 --> 02:26:38,159
Speaker 1: That would be. I mean it sounds plausible, uh initially right, right,

2505
02:26:38,440 --> 02:26:40,760
I mean we were getna. They seem like good lines

2506
02:26:40,799 --> 02:26:43,239
of critique. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, I need

2507
02:26:43,280 --> 02:26:44,399
to hear more, but it seems like it.

2508
02:26:45,479 --> 02:26:47,719
Speaker 5: Well, and what we were kind of getting into is like.

2509
02:26:48,159 --> 02:26:50,920
Speaker 6: It's because I noticed in a lot of your debates

2510
02:26:51,159 --> 02:26:54,280
and debates with Roman Catholics, debates with whoever kind of

2511
02:26:54,319 --> 02:26:56,559
holds to an ADS position, which tends to be a

2512
02:26:56,639 --> 02:27:02,040
lot of worldviews, they try to maintain transcendence without really

2513
02:27:02,319 --> 02:27:05,520
justifying how the cause of relations of that transcendence could

2514
02:27:06,120 --> 02:27:07,559
actually enter time and space.

2515
02:27:07,680 --> 02:27:09,840
Speaker 1: Yes, in fact, in fact, it's funny you say that

2516
02:27:10,040 --> 02:27:13,040
because before the Tim Gordon debate, I was on the

2517
02:27:13,159 --> 02:27:16,399
road driving down to Miami talking to barther Deacon Anonias,

2518
02:27:17,360 --> 02:27:20,440
and we were rehearsing and rehashing one of his critiques

2519
02:27:20,479 --> 02:27:25,319
of tonism, which is precisely that if you say that

2520
02:27:25,760 --> 02:27:29,600
the first actuality or the first cause is cashed out

2521
02:27:29,680 --> 02:27:33,000
as basically opposite the created order and nothing like it,

2522
02:27:33,079 --> 02:27:35,120
which is what you would say in the via negativa,

2523
02:27:35,719 --> 02:27:37,719
But then you turn around and say that, but we

2524
02:27:37,840 --> 02:27:40,959
all know from the principle of causality that every effect

2525
02:27:41,120 --> 02:27:44,159
bears a similarity to its cause. That's begging the question

2526
02:27:45,360 --> 02:27:46,399
right exactly.

2527
02:27:47,000 --> 02:27:49,920
Speaker 6: And the thing too is I also see how this

2528
02:27:50,040 --> 02:27:54,200
could necessitate a hypothesis in nature, because if you treat

2529
02:27:54,319 --> 02:27:58,040
nature as something abstracted from a personal actor or something

2530
02:27:58,079 --> 02:28:01,280
to actually a subject that has a Then technically you'd

2531
02:28:01,319 --> 02:28:04,239
fall into the reiflication fallacy right there, as treating some

2532
02:28:04,399 --> 02:28:07,760
concept that's outside of something that needs to be in hypostesize.

2533
02:28:08,280 --> 02:28:10,319
So I was wondering, you know, in the future, maybe

2534
02:28:10,639 --> 02:28:13,200
I could see a lot of value in incorporating those

2535
02:28:13,280 --> 02:28:16,639
two fallacies in tandem, because you know, if we want

2536
02:28:16,760 --> 02:28:21,440
to be logically coherent, which obviously a Tomist or Roman Catholic,

2537
02:28:21,520 --> 02:28:23,920
this is going to be their their number one priority

2538
02:28:24,040 --> 02:28:28,600
is remaining logically consistent, because you know they're scholastic. Well,

2539
02:28:28,639 --> 02:28:31,760
then you would have to argue for a non fallacious

2540
02:28:31,840 --> 02:28:34,760
move when you're describing God. Right, there's no way, there's

2541
02:28:34,840 --> 02:28:37,959
no way to avoid avoid both those logical fallacies without

2542
02:28:38,079 --> 02:28:42,680
necessitating an asincerity distinction and a nature hypostasis distinction.

2543
02:28:43,319 --> 02:28:45,559
Speaker 5: And obviously they're not going to be able to actually

2544
02:28:45,680 --> 02:28:47,159
uphold that. I don't think.

2545
02:28:47,360 --> 02:28:48,959
Speaker 1: No, well, they're going to say that. You don't know

2546
02:28:49,079 --> 02:28:51,120
that yet. You just know about the first cause the

2547
02:28:51,159 --> 02:28:53,879
first actualizer. You don't know if he's I mean that's

2548
02:28:53,920 --> 02:28:57,600
I mean, well, what is he? Is it personal or

2549
02:28:57,719 --> 02:28:58,239
is it a heat?

2550
02:28:58,399 --> 02:28:58,920
Speaker 5: Like? What is this?

2551
02:29:00,079 --> 02:29:00,200
Speaker 3: Right?

2552
02:29:00,520 --> 02:29:00,639
Speaker 5: Right?

2553
02:29:00,840 --> 02:29:03,959
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I like this. I like this line of

2554
02:29:04,040 --> 02:29:04,399
thought here.

2555
02:29:05,520 --> 02:29:08,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, because I was trying to find some way to

2556
02:29:08,440 --> 02:29:12,760
necessitate in a sense energy distinction, because that's obviously paramount

2557
02:29:12,840 --> 02:29:15,799
to orthodox theology, and a lot of times the debates

2558
02:29:15,920 --> 02:29:18,680
kind of end up in that, Like they usually mess

2559
02:29:18,799 --> 02:29:22,000
up exactly how God can remain transcended and really truly

2560
02:29:22,120 --> 02:29:24,319
be God in his essence being unchangeable.

2561
02:29:24,399 --> 02:29:28,319
Speaker 1: Well, you notice in the debate with Tim, even though

2562
02:29:28,319 --> 02:29:30,239
we weren't debating a pistemology or anything like that, Like

2563
02:29:30,319 --> 02:29:34,239
he was beginning to kind of struggle with At first

2564
02:29:34,280 --> 02:29:36,879
he said that Theophanes are the substance of God going

2565
02:29:36,959 --> 02:29:39,239
before them. He backtracked that. I was like, no, actually,

2566
02:29:39,239 --> 02:29:41,680
it was just a creature. And then he was like

2567
02:29:41,760 --> 02:29:44,079
at one point stumbling over whether or not God could

2568
02:29:44,079 --> 02:29:46,280
be in time and space, And it's like, do you

2569
02:29:46,360 --> 02:29:49,120
not understand that this is going to pose a problem

2570
02:29:49,239 --> 02:29:52,280
with the incarnation eventually. Like I think he was sort

2571
02:29:52,319 --> 02:29:57,479
of struggling with the tomistic metaphysical God, but also the

2572
02:29:57,920 --> 02:30:00,920
Christianity Jesus God in car and eight. It's like those

2573
02:30:00,959 --> 02:30:03,200
are two different systems. They're incommntional right.

2574
02:30:03,120 --> 02:30:06,639
Speaker 6: And right exactly at their move where He then kind

2575
02:30:06,680 --> 02:30:08,000
of fell back on, well, those.

2576
02:30:07,879 --> 02:30:10,920
Speaker 5: Are created instantiations.

2577
02:30:09,920 --> 02:30:12,719
Speaker 6: By which you right, right there, you're committing both those

2578
02:30:12,760 --> 02:30:19,399
fallacies simultaneously, because then God remains abstract and unknowable and rehified.

2579
02:30:19,920 --> 02:30:22,239
Therefore you're treating him as if he still has some

2580
02:30:22,399 --> 02:30:23,000
relation to this.

2581
02:30:23,000 --> 02:30:24,360
Speaker 5: World, but you haven't shown how.

2582
02:30:25,120 --> 02:30:28,000
Speaker 6: And then at the same time, you're also anthropomorphizing him

2583
02:30:28,120 --> 02:30:30,479
because now you just understand him along the lines of

2584
02:30:30,600 --> 02:30:31,399
created concept.

2585
02:30:31,639 --> 02:30:35,159
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. And this is this is basically what Palamos

2586
02:30:35,280 --> 02:30:37,680
is critiquing when he says, if you only know the

2587
02:30:37,719 --> 02:30:39,879
creative effects, then you never know the God behind the

2588
02:30:39,920 --> 02:30:43,239
created effects. There's an impenetrable veil that's never pierced. And

2589
02:30:43,360 --> 02:30:44,520
do we actually ever know God?

2590
02:30:45,440 --> 02:30:48,879
Speaker 6: Yes, exactly, And right there you know again, I just

2591
02:30:49,000 --> 02:30:51,719
I don't see how you could avoid that too, And

2592
02:30:51,840 --> 02:30:54,000
this kind of led me and Father deacon An and

2593
02:30:54,040 --> 02:30:56,200
I skat and got into this too after after we

2594
02:30:56,280 --> 02:31:01,319
talked about this was noticing a conceptual sanction between the

2595
02:31:01,520 --> 02:31:04,680
essence and nature of God, which I find kind of

2596
02:31:04,920 --> 02:31:09,159
useful in explicating exactly how God can remain you know,

2597
02:31:09,319 --> 02:31:14,239
infinitely transcended but also relational within his nature, and so

2598
02:31:14,360 --> 02:31:16,639
we kind of got into that too. Obviously, I don't

2599
02:31:16,639 --> 02:31:17,920
want to take up a ton of your time, but

2600
02:31:18,280 --> 02:31:21,360
I just mainly wanted to bring up the reification anthromorphic thing.

2601
02:31:22,000 --> 02:31:24,760
See if you wanted if you saw that as valuable

2602
02:31:24,879 --> 02:31:26,879
moving forward in any debates or anything you.

2603
02:31:26,920 --> 02:31:30,639
Speaker 1: Had with Roman Catholic, but you actually anticipated that's actually right.

2604
02:31:30,719 --> 02:31:32,520
I think you're right on the right track there. In fact,

2605
02:31:33,520 --> 02:31:35,239
as I was talking to Father Deacon on the way

2606
02:31:35,239 --> 02:31:37,360
to the debate, I was discussing like, if we had

2607
02:31:37,399 --> 02:31:40,799
gone in the direction of a histemology or tomistic of bistemology,

2608
02:31:41,360 --> 02:31:43,399
I was going to bring up some of these problems.

2609
02:31:44,600 --> 02:31:46,959
But I noticed when I got in there and we

2610
02:31:47,399 --> 02:31:50,680
sort of were chatting at the beginning, I just felt

2611
02:31:50,799 --> 02:31:56,479
like the best way to refute him, for the sake

2612
02:31:56,559 --> 02:31:59,319
of the audience as well, is to go to scripture

2613
02:31:59,360 --> 02:32:01,600
and to go to Vine revelation and focus on Theophanes

2614
02:32:02,120 --> 02:32:04,239
because number one, I knew that was the weakest part

2615
02:32:04,319 --> 02:32:09,760
for him. Number Two, epistemology discussions will get bogged down,

2616
02:32:09,799 --> 02:32:13,840
the audience will get lost, uh. And I just think

2617
02:32:13,879 --> 02:32:17,959
that people are going to easily resonate with Theophanies or

2618
02:32:17,959 --> 02:32:18,479
God in space,