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<v Speaker 1>Hey, guys, welcome to episode three hundred and ninety three

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<v Speaker 1>of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with today's guest,

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<v Speaker 1>Robert Leech. Robert is a former fifth Special Forces Group

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<v Speaker 1>soldier currently works over there at the Innovation Lab, and

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<v Speaker 1>he is also the author of I Got This here

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<v Speaker 1>on my kindle, Wretched Descent. I hope you can see

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<v Speaker 1>that those of you who are watching this, I read it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a novel that Rob wrote based on his military experience.

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<v Speaker 1>I read it, really enjoyed it. We'll get into the

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<v Speaker 1>book a bit later on in this interview, But first off, Rob,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks for joining us on the show tonight.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it,

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<v Speaker 2>appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's start at the beginning. Tell us a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit about how you grew up and how that sort

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<v Speaker 1>of took you towards military service.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Sure. So I'm originally from Florida, born and raised.

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<v Speaker 2>It's actually born down in Key West, so actually born

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<v Speaker 2>on the island. Not too many people can claim that.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I'm fourth or fifth generation born down there

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<v Speaker 2>between the island and Bahamas, and then moved from Key

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<v Speaker 2>West when I was probably about ten up to central Florida,

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<v Speaker 2>about an hour and a half north of Tampa, about

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<v Speaker 2>an hour south of Gainesville, and you know, stayed there

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<v Speaker 2>throughout middle school, high school. Left as soon as I

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<v Speaker 2>graduated high school, I left for the army. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>four days later, I was out the door. I couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>get out quick enough. That was in two thousand, when

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<v Speaker 2>I graduated high school. So that was pre nine to eleven,

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<v Speaker 2>pretty any kind of real war since you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>Gulf War, and that was the only thing that most

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<v Speaker 2>people had in their minds of what war looked like

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<v Speaker 2>for the United States was a quick, you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>and out overmatch and we're done. So yeah, that was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of where I thought this, you know, military track

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<v Speaker 2>was going. Uh signed up for the infantry, as a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of you know, rural country Ish kids tend to go.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I went into the Army in two thousand,

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<v Speaker 2>ended up out at Fort Lewis, where I did my

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<v Speaker 2>first four years and my very first deployment until Iraq

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<v Speaker 2>in two thousand and three.

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<v Speaker 1>So you were down at Fort lou or I should say,

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<v Speaker 1>up at Fort Lewis when nine to eleven happened. And

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<v Speaker 1>then you guys didn't do Afghanistan, but you got folded

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<v Speaker 1>right into that big run up er rap.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. We went in deployed in October of three,

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<v Speaker 2>so we weren't part of the initial invasion. We replaced

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<v Speaker 2>thee hundred and first up in northern Iraq, so it still,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, two thousand and three Iraq was still pretty austere.

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<v Speaker 2>We were the first striker brigade, so we're the ones

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<v Speaker 2>who brought strikers in them all the way from Kuwait,

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<v Speaker 2>all the way through the country, hung out and blog

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<v Speaker 2>for a little while, and then ended up in Missoul

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<v Speaker 2>for the rest of the deployment. That was, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and three, late two thousand and three, mid

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and four. That was kind of the beginning

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<v Speaker 2>of the insurgency kind of popping up, you know, small ambushes,

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<v Speaker 2>small arms fire, small IEDs, nothing too drastic. We did

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<v Speaker 2>have some you know, some contact things like that, but

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<v Speaker 2>most of it was just kind of hit and run tactics.

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<v Speaker 1>Back then, How did you guys like operating with strikers

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<v Speaker 1>in a rap?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? I love strikers. So two thousand and three deployment

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<v Speaker 2>with strikers, we'll get into it. But two thousand and seven,

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<v Speaker 2>I deployed with the infantry again in Strikers, and that

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<v Speaker 2>was for the surge. And I mean I've personally been

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<v Speaker 2>in say three or four ied strikes on my vehicle

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<v Speaker 2>that I was sitting in, and you know, I've never

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<v Speaker 2>gotten a scratch. Not everybody was as fortunate, you know, unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, for me, they were a game changer.

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<v Speaker 2>Like the armor they carried, the firepower they could bring

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<v Speaker 2>to the battlefield, like strikers are unmatched in my opinion. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>they were awesome.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we used them in two thousand and five and

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<v Speaker 1>yeah they were great.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know they're I think they downsized a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of the striker brigades that are out there because they

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<v Speaker 2>were pushing real hard for him. But I mean they

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<v Speaker 2>don't stand up to you know, kind of the large

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<v Speaker 2>scale combat that we're talking probably with you know, tanks

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<v Speaker 2>and big armor. But for the insurgency stuff, they were great.

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<v Speaker 2>They were they were awesome.

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<v Speaker 1>So anything else you want to tell us about that

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<v Speaker 1>first apployment to a wrap.

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<v Speaker 2>No, So that one, like I said, it was a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of you know, small attacks, so we would get

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<v Speaker 2>you know, small arm fire ambushes here and there. We

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<v Speaker 2>would do. You know, it was like twelve our days

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<v Speaker 2>of just driving, just driving and kind of you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we used to call it fishing driving and looking for

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<v Speaker 2>someone to shoot at us so we can go get

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<v Speaker 2>in contact and tried to flush out who was ever siding.

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<v Speaker 2>Lots of small IDs that we got hit by. That

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<v Speaker 2>was the when they were experimenting with the food gas.

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<v Speaker 2>You remember the food gas stuff like nap Yeah, it

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<v Speaker 2>was like a napalm soap stuff. So we got hit

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<v Speaker 2>by some of those, but they didn't really do anything

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<v Speaker 2>to the striker. See, I was, you know, an eventful deployment.

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<v Speaker 2>First look at combat, first look at you know, what

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<v Speaker 2>the army life is overseas. And I was actually stop

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<v Speaker 2>lost on that trip because I was trying to get out.

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<v Speaker 2>So as soon as that trip got over, I got

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<v Speaker 2>out of the Army, went back to Florida, went through

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<v Speaker 2>the law enforcement academy, and was a sheriff's deputy down

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<v Speaker 2>in central Florida for a really short period. It was

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<v Speaker 2>probably six months, seven months as a shriffe, and I

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<v Speaker 2>just you know, I decided I couldn't do that anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's not like being a police officer. Just still

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<v Speaker 1>didn't care for Central Forwarda that much.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I think it was more the law enforcement side.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, my hat's off to two guys who do

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<v Speaker 2>that and stick it out. I was just, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>coming from four years in the Army in Iraq deployment

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<v Speaker 2>and then going straight to law enforcement. I probably should

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<v Speaker 2>have taken some time off because I got real jaded

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<v Speaker 2>real quick. You know, my last training officer, he was

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<v Speaker 2>a Marine, and he told me, he's like, man, you

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<v Speaker 2>you feel like you're like a twenty year veteran for

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<v Speaker 2>the police force. How jaded you are with some of

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<v Speaker 2>these people. And it was just frustrating how the system

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<v Speaker 2>works a lot of the times. How you know, people

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<v Speaker 2>get you arrest someone that's a bad, bad dude, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know they're out. You see him on the street

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<v Speaker 2>the next day or two days later, and they're doing

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<v Speaker 2>the same stuff all over again. It's just got you know,

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<v Speaker 2>real repetitive, real quick. And I was like, yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>can't do this for twenty five years. I'm gonna go

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<v Speaker 2>back in the Army. I prefer that you know that

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<v Speaker 2>route anyway.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So re enlisted after.

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<v Speaker 2>That, Yep, re enlisted almost two years to the day

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<v Speaker 2>that I got out. Kept my rank. So I came

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<v Speaker 2>back in at a E five and my goal when

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<v Speaker 2>I was coming back in was I wanted to go

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<v Speaker 2>with Special Forces, right, that was my goal my first

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<v Speaker 2>four years. But you know, deployment and being a young

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<v Speaker 2>infantry guy just never kind of materialized. So I said, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>when I'm coming back in, I'm going SF. So I

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<v Speaker 2>signed back up infantry E five, got sent back to

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<v Speaker 2>Fort Lewis again. So right back out to Fort Lewis,

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<v Speaker 2>and I want to say it was six months later

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<v Speaker 2>we deployed for the search. So soon as we got there,

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<v Speaker 2>everybody was locked in. You weren't allowed to go do

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<v Speaker 2>any any schools, you know, any SF selections things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>They locked us all down. And we deployed for the

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<v Speaker 2>Surge two thousand and seven with fourth Brigade, Second Infantry Division. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>for one of the long long ones.

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<v Speaker 1>It was very spicy during that time frame. What was

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<v Speaker 1>that depointment like?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So that one was two thousand and seven of

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<v Speaker 2>the surge. We got in and they put us just

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<v Speaker 2>north of Baghdad and the Taji area, and we started

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<v Speaker 2>as part of a bigger operation, but our brigade basically

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<v Speaker 2>had from Taji up to kind of the Bakuba area

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<v Speaker 2>and kind of south, you know, just south of what

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<v Speaker 2>would be considered northern Iraq, and then all the way

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<v Speaker 2>east out to Iran. And we started in Taji and

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<v Speaker 2>it was kind of like hands across the desert coordinated

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<v Speaker 2>Clearing operation and they moved from Taji and we cleared

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<v Speaker 2>all the way that whole corridor of nothing but NonStop

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<v Speaker 2>operations throughout there. I was kind of fortunate on that one.

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<v Speaker 2>When I signed in at Fort Lewis, they're like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>you know you've got combat experience. We're looking for some

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<v Speaker 2>NCOs to help set up this new platoon, infantry platoon

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<v Speaker 2>that we're forming, and you're going to run the Brigade PSD,

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<v Speaker 2>the Personal Security Detachment. I'm like, I don't even know

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<v Speaker 2>what that is, but I guess I don't really have

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<v Speaker 2>a choice. So I'm in and we took you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we got handed twenty I think it was like twenty

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<v Speaker 2>one twenty two brand new privates, straight out of basic

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<v Speaker 2>training and like four or five of US NCOs and

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<v Speaker 2>they're like, you have, you know, four months to deploy,

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<v Speaker 2>get them ready to go. And it was a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it was a lot of training a lot

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<v Speaker 2>real fast trying to get these you know, young kids

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<v Speaker 2>up to par for what two thousand and seven Iraq

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<v Speaker 2>was going to look like. We're just watching videos, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>YouTube videos of abrams tanks getting cut in half by

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<v Speaker 2>deep buried idds and you know the large stuff that

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<v Speaker 2>they had going on then. So we we we did

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<v Speaker 2>the best we could and we got them ready and

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<v Speaker 2>then we deployed. That was a fifteen month trip on

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<v Speaker 2>that that burn. Yeah, it was rough, but you know,

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<v Speaker 2>doing the PSD mission, it was it was going out

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<v Speaker 2>every single day taking the kernel and the Brigade CSM

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<v Speaker 2>out to go either do kl's or to go out

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<v Speaker 2>and check out with the different fobs we had all

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<v Speaker 2>over the place, so we were constantly on the road.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was a lot of you know coordination to

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<v Speaker 2>you know, wrote clearance and everything else trying to make

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<v Speaker 2>sure we weren't going to catch any of these IDs

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<v Speaker 2>that were hitting everybody out there. We ended up splitting

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<v Speaker 2>up because we were you know, six strikers deep with

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<v Speaker 2>the Brigade commander and the CSM and you know, all

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<v Speaker 2>these antennas and looking like the biggest target in the world.

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<v Speaker 2>So we ended up splitting up into three and three

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<v Speaker 2>and I took the CSM and he, you know, his

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<v Speaker 2>whole goal in life was to go out and check

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<v Speaker 2>on the boys. You know, he just wanted to go

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<v Speaker 2>out and to the different fobs and he loved walking dismounted.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're doing dismounted, just me and the PSD and

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<v Speaker 2>him going through you know, Bakuba and all these different

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<v Speaker 2>areas in two thousand and Seven's not you know, my

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<v Speaker 2>idea of a picnic, but it was. It was a

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<v Speaker 2>rough trip. You know, we got hit a few times,

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<v Speaker 2>we had some IDs strikes, we had you know, some

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<v Speaker 2>e FP hits, and you know, it was just a

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<v Speaker 2>it was a long trip to be dealing with that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff all the time. So as soon as

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<v Speaker 2>I got back from that trip, I went to selection,

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<v Speaker 2>like two months three months after I got back, I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, I am not doing this again.

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<v Speaker 1>I was how how did the brand new privates kind

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<v Speaker 1>of adapt to their first appointment? Like you didn't probably

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<v Speaker 1>realize this at the time, but like this is sort

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<v Speaker 1>of like training to be a Special Forces NCO as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, it's definitely definitely uh wrangling the gen d's

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00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:59.240
<v Speaker 2>up in there all the time. But yeah, they they

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00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:02.159
<v Speaker 2>did really well. So it was a good group of kids,

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00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:04.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, guys. I hate to call him kids, but

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<v Speaker 2>they were just a lot younger than me. But they

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<v Speaker 2>were a good group of guys, and they adapted pretty

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<v Speaker 2>quick to the environment.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>We were, like I said, we were out every single day,

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<v Speaker 2>out there in different areas, having to learn different routes

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<v Speaker 2>and coordinate with different elements and units, and I never know,

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00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:24.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, where. Every morning I'd go into the CSM's

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00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:27.919
<v Speaker 2>office and he'd be like, well, I don't know, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>you or some of your viewers might know. Commands are

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<v Speaker 2>Major John Troxel. He was the Chairman of the Joint

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<v Speaker 2>Chief Senior and Listed Advisor.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, he was. He was the sergeant major of

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<v Speaker 1>the Army, wasn't he.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't remember, but I know he ended up like

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<v Speaker 2>the senior enlisted advisor of everything. Yeah, he was the

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<v Speaker 2>Brigade CSM. So he's got like this gravelly voice, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'd go in there every morning and he'd be like, Leach,

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00:12:54.919 --> 00:12:57.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, here's where we're going today. So I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>all right, let's go figure out what that looks like,

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00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:04.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, and we're getting indirect fire, you know, on

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<v Speaker 2>our fobs all the time, and we were just staying

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<v Speaker 2>in open air tents basically no hard structures, and it

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00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:13.320
<v Speaker 2>was it was a rough trip. You know. They adapted

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<v Speaker 2>well and I kind of hated. I felt bad. You know,

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00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:19.519
<v Speaker 2>we got back, but going to selection, I got picked

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00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:22.639
<v Speaker 2>up and I was gone, you know, months later, so

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't really get to stick around and help them

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<v Speaker 2>de transition and kind of settle back in. But you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they had some good NCOs to help them out, so

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<v Speaker 2>it worked out. I think.

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<v Speaker 1>so you went to selection by now, by this time

300
00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:40.559
<v Speaker 1>it must be two thousand and eight.

301
00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:43.200
<v Speaker 2>It would have been late two thousand and eight.

302
00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:48.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and what was your experience like you know, going

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00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:50.519
<v Speaker 1>through selection in the Q course.

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00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:54.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so selection when I went through, I think we

305
00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:59.799
<v Speaker 2>started with like four hundred and five you know, roughly

306
00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:02.840
<v Speaker 2>class size, and it was I want to say, it

307
00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:07.279
<v Speaker 2>was like October and you know, beautiful Fort Bragg Camp

308
00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:11.440
<v Speaker 2>McCall and we started and it was probably in the

309
00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:15.960
<v Speaker 2>upper eighties, and then it rained for two days, and

310
00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:19.039
<v Speaker 2>then it was in the twenties, and then it rained,

311
00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:22.359
<v Speaker 2>and then it was in the nineties. So it was

312
00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:25.039
<v Speaker 2>like an up and down roller coaster of weather, which

313
00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:27.480
<v Speaker 2>I think broke a lot of people off, Like they

314
00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:30.200
<v Speaker 2>people were dropping left and right because we were constantly

315
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:36.400
<v Speaker 2>wet or freezing or hot. But selection, So my biggest

316
00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:39.519
<v Speaker 2>you know mistake going into selection for those out there

317
00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:44.039
<v Speaker 2>that might be interested, was just came back from a

318
00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:49.200
<v Speaker 2>deployment and I bought new boots coming back because my

319
00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:52.839
<v Speaker 2>boots were so trashed from that fifteen month. So I

320
00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:56.359
<v Speaker 2>got new boots and went to breaking them in and

321
00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:58.880
<v Speaker 2>these were just regular army issue boots back then, that's

322
00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:02.920
<v Speaker 2>all you could wear. So my feet got destroyed like

323
00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:07.200
<v Speaker 2>day two immediately, they were just trashed. So I had

324
00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:11.000
<v Speaker 2>to deal with you know, blisters and you know, toe

325
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:13.680
<v Speaker 2>nails falling off and all that good stuff from the

326
00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:18.799
<v Speaker 2>miles and things were you know, I wasn't performing as

327
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:21.839
<v Speaker 2>well as I thought I could, mostly because I couldn't

328
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:25.039
<v Speaker 2>hardly put my feet on the ground. You know, made

329
00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:27.039
<v Speaker 2>it through the I think it was three weeks back then,

330
00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:29.559
<v Speaker 2>and like I said, we started with a little over

331
00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:31.799
<v Speaker 2>four hundred. I think at the end of the three

332
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:35.319
<v Speaker 2>weeks there was like one hundred and fifty people left,

333
00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:38.799
<v Speaker 2>and out of that it came out to be like

334
00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:43.000
<v Speaker 2>one thirty ish got selected. You know, making it to

335
00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:46.480
<v Speaker 2>the end is always a boon for your survival chances.

336
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.799
<v Speaker 2>But some people still didn't make it. Hopefully they went

337
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:51.759
<v Speaker 2>back and tried again. But you know, I got picked

338
00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:54.880
<v Speaker 2>up on my first go. You know, at the end

339
00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:57.880
<v Speaker 2>of selection, you sit down with your counselor whoever they are,

340
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:00.440
<v Speaker 2>and they tell you, hey, you did you know you

341
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.119
<v Speaker 2>have this GT score, you did this well on your

342
00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:06.880
<v Speaker 2>language aptitude tests, and they're like, we want you to

343
00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:09.839
<v Speaker 2>you know, you did really well in your language test

344
00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:11.559
<v Speaker 2>and you have a high GG score. We want you

345
00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:14.400
<v Speaker 2>to be a delta and we want you to do

346
00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:17.799
<v Speaker 2>I forget what they said Arabic or Mandarin or something

347
00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:19.960
<v Speaker 2>right off the gat and I was like, if you

348
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:23.359
<v Speaker 2>put Delta down, I am not coming back. I got

349
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:26.559
<v Speaker 2>no desire to be a Delta. That's hard. I am

350
00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:30.359
<v Speaker 2>not a medical guy. I like guns. So I was like,

351
00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:34.440
<v Speaker 2>I want to be a Bravo weapon sergeant. And I

352
00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:36.440
<v Speaker 2>remember the guy looked at me and he's like, i'll

353
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:38.960
<v Speaker 2>give you weapon sergeant. Well originally I said I want

354
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:44.279
<v Speaker 2>weapon sergeant, and I want Spanish, and yeah, he looked

355
00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:46.279
<v Speaker 2>at me and he's like, I'll give you a weapon sergeant,

356
00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:48.279
<v Speaker 2>but you are not doing Spanish. You don't get to

357
00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:51.680
<v Speaker 2>two or the easier side. You're gonna you want to

358
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:54.640
<v Speaker 2>do weapon sergeant, you gotta do Arabic. And I was like,

359
00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:56.640
<v Speaker 2>all right, whatever Arabic it is.

360
00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:01.759
<v Speaker 1>So then get into the Q course in two thousand

361
00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:03.079
<v Speaker 1>and nine, right.

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00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:06.160
<v Speaker 2>Yep, it would have been to the early two thousand

363
00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:11.440
<v Speaker 2>and nine, spring of two thousand and nine probably, yeah,

364
00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:16.000
<v Speaker 2>and uh yeah, so back then it was structured. You

365
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:19.920
<v Speaker 2>started with language school. Uh so we did language first.

366
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:23.200
<v Speaker 2>So that was six months of Arabic, which I sucked

367
00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:26.519
<v Speaker 2>at Arabic. I got better longer I stayed in the army,

368
00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:30.400
<v Speaker 2>but back then I was horrible at it, and then

369
00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:35.359
<v Speaker 2>it was out to McCall for small unit tactics and

370
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:39.359
<v Speaker 2>seer school and then weapons and then you know, the

371
00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:42.440
<v Speaker 2>final stage portion of it. I think that's the order

372
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.839
<v Speaker 2>they did back then. I think it's all different now, but.

373
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:46.839
<v Speaker 1>It changes like year to year almost.

374
00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:49.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think they do language at the end now,

375
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.119
<v Speaker 2>after they get their braves and tabs and everything.

376
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:55.799
<v Speaker 1>When I went through it in two thousand and seven,

377
00:20:55.880 --> 00:20:58.920
<v Speaker 1>it was split up. You would have like two week

378
00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:01.960
<v Speaker 1>blocks here and there language in between the other phases,

379
00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:06.759
<v Speaker 1>and then I think you had like one four month

380
00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:09.799
<v Speaker 1>block or something like that, five month block before you

381
00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:12.640
<v Speaker 1>took the test. Yeah, I don't know. It was weird.

382
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:15.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that would be tough. I don't think I

383
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.359
<v Speaker 2>could do it Arabic split up like that. I had

384
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.920
<v Speaker 2>to just like head first in the deep ending on

385
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:21.960
<v Speaker 2>that one. Yeah.

386
00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:24.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, a language like that, you really do need to

387
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:27.000
<v Speaker 1>be immersed in it, at least someone like me. I

388
00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:30.119
<v Speaker 1>need to take some time to put my uh wrap

389
00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:30.839
<v Speaker 1>my head around that.

390
00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:36.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Did you have Arabic? Yeah yeah, yeah, And you

391
00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:38.839
<v Speaker 2>know I did. They teach you the modern standard Arabic

392
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:41.640
<v Speaker 2>and the Q course and I stuck with that for

393
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:45.279
<v Speaker 2>a couple of years a group, and then I found

394
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:49.319
<v Speaker 2>a dialect, you know, eleventeen, And I thought I just

395
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:52.119
<v Speaker 2>sucked at Arabic all these years on my deployments until

396
00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:54.799
<v Speaker 2>I switched to eleventeen, and I'm like, they're speaking another language.

397
00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:57.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't even know why they teach the

398
00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:00.440
<v Speaker 2>modern standard anymore, Like just go leventeen because it's what

399
00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:02.200
<v Speaker 2>they actually understand and what they talk.

400
00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:05.799
<v Speaker 1>It was a game ting for meil He dialect itself

401
00:22:05.799 --> 00:22:08.480
<v Speaker 1>has also had some unique words and PHRASESM.

402
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:12.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there, it definitely does. Yeah, the modern standard they

403
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:13.079
<v Speaker 2>need to do away with that.

404
00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:17.119
<v Speaker 1>So you graduated the Q course, get assigned a fifth group.

405
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:21.119
<v Speaker 1>Of course, because you're an Arabic speaker, what team did

406
00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:21.680
<v Speaker 1>you land on?

407
00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.079
<v Speaker 2>So I would landed on five four one three. So

408
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:29.680
<v Speaker 2>that was when Forur Battalion had Odas. I was out

409
00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Company four Battalion and when I got there, we were

410
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.119
<v Speaker 2>a mountain team. And then I want to say it

411
00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:40.119
<v Speaker 2>was six months after that or something they took away.

412
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:42.079
<v Speaker 2>They did away with a lot of the mountain statuses

413
00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:44.160
<v Speaker 2>and kind of changed it.

414
00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:46.759
<v Speaker 1>That's funny, Rob, because I was on the free fall

415
00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:50.559
<v Speaker 1>team right down the hall there oh are you. Yeah,

416
00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:52.799
<v Speaker 1>you must have been getting there right as I left.

417
00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:56.839
<v Speaker 1>It was about twenty ten. Oh yeah, I got there

418
00:22:57.200 --> 00:22:58.359
<v Speaker 1>in late twenty ten.

419
00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:02.279
<v Speaker 2>Yep. So I got there, and I want to say

420
00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.720
<v Speaker 2>it was like October November twenty ten I signed on.

421
00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:06.240
<v Speaker 1>There were good guys on that team.

422
00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:09.839
<v Speaker 2>Yep. Yeah, there was a so when I when I

423
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:12.920
<v Speaker 2>got there, the team had been together for probably four

424
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.680
<v Speaker 2>years roughly, and like what right as I got there,

425
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:19.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of them started switching out and going on

426
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:23.039
<v Speaker 2>and doing different things. So you know, it wasn't six

427
00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:26.000
<v Speaker 2>months on the team and I'm the senior Bravo, Like

428
00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:27.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't even know how to set up you know,

429
00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:30.720
<v Speaker 2>a range or do any of the stuff. I'm like, yeah,

430
00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:33.599
<v Speaker 2>all right, I'll figure it out. But yeah, a lot

431
00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:36.160
<v Speaker 2>of the guys switched out. I want to say a

432
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:40.200
<v Speaker 2>handful of the originals stayed there throughout the time I

433
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:42.759
<v Speaker 2>was on the team. So they were lucky and dodged

434
00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:46.119
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the schools and whatever else they get

435
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:46.559
<v Speaker 2>pulled for.

436
00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:51.119
<v Speaker 1>What was I mean you mentioned it briefly, but like

437
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:54.359
<v Speaker 1>what was fourth Battalion kind of going through at that

438
00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:57.359
<v Speaker 1>time as far as like its mission and how it

439
00:23:57.519 --> 00:23:58.119
<v Speaker 1>was oriented?

440
00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:01.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, so I got there late twenty ten.

441
00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:06.160
<v Speaker 2>We deployed in twenty eleven to Iraq. Again. It was,

442
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:08.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, right when I got there that they had

443
00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:11.039
<v Speaker 2>just come back from I think a trip to Iraq.

444
00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:12.759
<v Speaker 2>I don't know that might have been if you were

445
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:16.359
<v Speaker 2>on that one. So because when I got there, everybody

446
00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:21.039
<v Speaker 2>was on leave. And then we had I forget when

447
00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:24.039
<v Speaker 2>in twenty eleven, but we took off again and this

448
00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:27.359
<v Speaker 2>time we were in cal Siou so just south the

449
00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:31.279
<v Speaker 2>bag Dad and this was you know, Operation New Dawn,

450
00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:34.960
<v Speaker 2>so we operation we're not allowed to go do anything.

451
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:41.119
<v Speaker 2>But well, what was happening in Calsiu specifically, like we

452
00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:45.440
<v Speaker 2>were getting hammered within direct fire, so I mean rockets,

453
00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.240
<v Speaker 2>not really mortars then, but it was a lot of rockets,

454
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:51.599
<v Speaker 2>a lot of katushas and some of the bigger ones.

455
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:56.839
<v Speaker 2>But it was like a nightly event to the point

456
00:24:57.079 --> 00:24:58.640
<v Speaker 2>where like I would I remember, I'd sit in my

457
00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:01.279
<v Speaker 2>chew and our chos lined up and there's bunkers in

458
00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:03.960
<v Speaker 2>between the choos, So like right outside my door was

459
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:07.759
<v Speaker 2>a bunker and you had like blasted blankets and sandbags

460
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:12.319
<v Speaker 2>and everything else on these on these bunkers, and I

461
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:14.519
<v Speaker 2>would sit there and I have a little TV, you know,

462
00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.119
<v Speaker 2>and I'd be playing video games or watching TV at night,

463
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:20.920
<v Speaker 2>and I would set my foot flops up at a

464
00:25:21.079 --> 00:25:23.839
<v Speaker 2>runner's stance so I could hit them and stride and

465
00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:26.680
<v Speaker 2>not even have to slow down because that alarm would

466
00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:29.359
<v Speaker 2>go off like every single night, and they were coming

467
00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:34.079
<v Speaker 2>in close, like hitting in the compound to the point that,

468
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:38.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, we finally got the green light and tough

469
00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:40.559
<v Speaker 2>to do in twenty eleven, but we got the green

470
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:44.279
<v Speaker 2>light to go unilateral without partners, without anybody, and we

471
00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:46.680
<v Speaker 2>were able to go roll up I think most of

472
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:49.359
<v Speaker 2>those cells pretty quick. I mean, we knew who they were,

473
00:25:50.039 --> 00:25:51.400
<v Speaker 2>we just weren't allowed to go out and do anything

474
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:54.599
<v Speaker 2>about it. So I think, I don't know if someone

475
00:25:54.680 --> 00:25:57.000
<v Speaker 2>got wounded on the base or if the command had

476
00:25:57.119 --> 00:25:59.720
<v Speaker 2>enough and they got approval. But yeah, we had a couple,

477
00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:02.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, a month or two month period where we

478
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:04.680
<v Speaker 2>were doing ops like every night and just rolling guys

479
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:06.880
<v Speaker 2>up until that area is settled down for a while,

480
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:10.160
<v Speaker 2>which was great because I had enough of you know,

481
00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:11.880
<v Speaker 2>the rockets every night.

482
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:14.039
<v Speaker 1>How did you guys go about that? As far as

483
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:17.119
<v Speaker 1>like rolling up these indirect fire networks.

484
00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:19.839
<v Speaker 2>So It's hard for me to remember because I was

485
00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:21.519
<v Speaker 2>just the Bravo at the time, and I was kind

486
00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:25.359
<v Speaker 2>of inundated with like trying to be you know Bravo stuff,

487
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:27.759
<v Speaker 2>so keeping all the guns ready and all the stuff.

488
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:30.640
<v Speaker 2>So I wasn't part of any of like the network

489
00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:35.279
<v Speaker 2>exploration or development. I just know, you know, we got

490
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:42.160
<v Speaker 2>would go out, we did, you know, just standard vehicle hits,

491
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:44.759
<v Speaker 2>and we'd pull in some other sister teams in the

492
00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:46.920
<v Speaker 2>area to come help us on some of the bigger targets.

493
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:50.519
<v Speaker 2>We'd go out and set up you know, sniper operations

494
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:53.839
<v Speaker 2>to kind of do like train denial stuff, watch for

495
00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:55.599
<v Speaker 2>any of these teams that were coming in and trying

496
00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:58.480
<v Speaker 2>to set up their rockets. It was a it was

497
00:26:58.519 --> 00:27:00.880
<v Speaker 2>a mixed bag of things. We end we did go

498
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:03.240
<v Speaker 2>out a few times with some partner forces, were able

499
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.880
<v Speaker 2>to find some partner forces that wanted to work and

500
00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:07.519
<v Speaker 2>went out and kind of rolled up some of the

501
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:11.400
<v Speaker 2>bad folks out there in the areas. But it was

502
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:14.319
<v Speaker 2>a little mixed bag of different types of looks. Just

503
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:18.119
<v Speaker 2>to even get out there and doing presence patrols, you know,

504
00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:20.119
<v Speaker 2>at some point, just to let them know we were

505
00:27:20.119 --> 00:27:23.200
<v Speaker 2>allowed outside the wire even though the big army folks

506
00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:25.079
<v Speaker 2>weren't at the time, So it's just us.

507
00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:27.759
<v Speaker 1>Do you want to explain that for the viewers a

508
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:30.000
<v Speaker 1>little bit about you know, what it was like in

509
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:32.759
<v Speaker 1>Iraq at that time. You joked about it being Operation

510
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:34.519
<v Speaker 1>Do Nothing. Yeah.

511
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:39.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So Operation New Dawn was the finals. You know,

512
00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:42.599
<v Speaker 2>things were shutting down in Iraq in twenty eleven. We

513
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:47.640
<v Speaker 2>were getting told, hey, you know, start decluttering your fobs

514
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:52.480
<v Speaker 2>and bases, start turning excess equipment in. Get ready, we're

515
00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:53.960
<v Speaker 2>going to shut this thing down at the end of

516
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:57.920
<v Speaker 2>this deployment. Your team house is going away. So we

517
00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:00.880
<v Speaker 2>start you know, inventoring and turning things in and you know,

518
00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:03.440
<v Speaker 2>like I said, every day we're still getting rocketed while

519
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:08.559
<v Speaker 2>we're doing all this like administrative tasks and stuff and

520
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:11.559
<v Speaker 2>kind of the bigger pictures like we were trying to

521
00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:14.480
<v Speaker 2>hand over Iraq back to the Iraqis at the time,

522
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:16.240
<v Speaker 2>and what a lot of people don't know what that

523
00:28:16.359 --> 00:28:19.119
<v Speaker 2>looks like is it's a lot of State Department back

524
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:22.559
<v Speaker 2>and forth of you know, how many US soldiers are

525
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:25.079
<v Speaker 2>even loud in the country at the time, Like that

526
00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:27.839
<v Speaker 2>was like a real issue, is we couldn't even bring

527
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:32.200
<v Speaker 2>in certain enablers, if you know, that added to the

528
00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:35.000
<v Speaker 2>total number of the US footprint because they didn't want

529
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.119
<v Speaker 2>any more numbers. Like they had a cap they couldn't

530
00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:40.799
<v Speaker 2>go past it. So we were constantly, you know, back

531
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.599
<v Speaker 2>against the wall of we're tearing everything down, we're turning

532
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:47.720
<v Speaker 2>everything in. This teamhouse had been there probably since the invasion,

533
00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:51.480
<v Speaker 2>so it was packed full of junk and gear and

534
00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:54.519
<v Speaker 2>confiscated weapons and like all you name it, and we

535
00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:58.000
<v Speaker 2>had to get it all out of there. So it

536
00:28:58.119 --> 00:29:00.880
<v Speaker 2>was a lot of a lot of the uh, you know,

537
00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:03.640
<v Speaker 2>packing things up and then you know, getting told, hey,

538
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:06.720
<v Speaker 2>never mind, you're not you're not closing this one down,

539
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:09.119
<v Speaker 2>this one staying, you know, open it back up. They're

540
00:29:09.160 --> 00:29:11.200
<v Speaker 2>like okay, and then a month later like, no, you're

541
00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:13.759
<v Speaker 2>closing down. We changed our mind. Uh, you got to

542
00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:14.359
<v Speaker 2>close it up.

543
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:16.039
<v Speaker 1>So but on the.

544
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:18.640
<v Speaker 2>Political side, it was, you know, US forces were on

545
00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:21.319
<v Speaker 2>these bases, but they didn't want to see US vehicles

546
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:23.799
<v Speaker 2>out on the streets anymore. You weren't allowed to go

547
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:27.079
<v Speaker 2>out unless you were with a partner, and the partners

548
00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:29.240
<v Speaker 2>weren't trying to do a whole lot of operations. They

549
00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:32.039
<v Speaker 2>were trying to stay you know, safe on their end also,

550
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:35.559
<v Speaker 2>so there's a lot of kind of lethargic feeling of

551
00:29:35.720 --> 00:29:40.279
<v Speaker 2>not wanting to continue to do missions and operations. You know,

552
00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:45.039
<v Speaker 2>Like I said, these rockets were legit problems because they

553
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:47.640
<v Speaker 2>they got big, you know, they the Katooshas were like

554
00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:50.960
<v Speaker 2>the smaller ones and what I forget what those are,

555
00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:53.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, bad bravo that I am, but you know,

556
00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:57.799
<v Speaker 2>one fifties or whatever they are, and they just kept

557
00:29:57.839 --> 00:29:59.680
<v Speaker 2>going up till we were getting like the two hundred

558
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:03.480
<v Speaker 2>millions sized rockets coming in. And those are large, large

559
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:05.960
<v Speaker 2>explosions that you feel, you know, even when it's on

560
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.240
<v Speaker 2>the other side of the FOB. So it was, you know,

561
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:11.240
<v Speaker 2>we're lucky, you know, on our side and the FOB

562
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:13.240
<v Speaker 2>to not get any of our folks hurt.

563
00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:14.000
<v Speaker 1>You know.

564
00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:17.720
<v Speaker 2>I think some of the big army unit that was there,

565
00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:20.400
<v Speaker 2>I think it might've been First calv I think they

566
00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:23.519
<v Speaker 2>took some injuries, and I think that's what freed us up,

567
00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:24.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, to let us go out there and do

568
00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:29.119
<v Speaker 2>the operations. So, you know, I don't know if they

569
00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:31.079
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have hit anybody hit they might have. We might

570
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:33.279
<v Speaker 2>have just kept sucking them up and having to wait

571
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.200
<v Speaker 2>but luckily it worked out that, you know, I don't

572
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:38.839
<v Speaker 2>think anybody was killed, but we were able to go

573
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:40.839
<v Speaker 2>out there and clean up the area for a while.

574
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:44.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I know that was really frustrating times for all

575
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:47.799
<v Speaker 1>the guys that were over there because of exactly that

576
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:51.599
<v Speaker 1>dynamic that you described that. There's also this like weird

577
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:54.720
<v Speaker 1>thing where we were trying to prepare the Iraqis to

578
00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:57.559
<v Speaker 1>take over their country, as you say, and so the

579
00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:00.559
<v Speaker 1>special forces guys were like really trying to push that hard,

580
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:02.640
<v Speaker 1>like you guys, go out and do ops and we'll

581
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:06.920
<v Speaker 1>support you and this and that, whereas the conventional military

582
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:09.400
<v Speaker 1>was kind of like, our mission here is to just

583
00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:12.599
<v Speaker 1>not die. Yeah, so we're not going to go anywhere.

584
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:15.440
<v Speaker 1>We're not going to do anything. Keep the Iraqis off

585
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:17.720
<v Speaker 1>our base. When you bring them on, you have to

586
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:19.839
<v Speaker 1>take their guns because we don't want them to shoot out.

587
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:23.119
<v Speaker 1>It was like really like a conflicting missions that felt like.

588
00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:29.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I remember on one we were getting dropped

589
00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:32.519
<v Speaker 2>off by the first Calve guys and their m wraps.

590
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:33.960
<v Speaker 2>They were going to drop us off and we're going

591
00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:37.799
<v Speaker 2>to go perch out in the woods somewhere, and they

592
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.279
<v Speaker 2>pulled up and opened the door and we got out

593
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:44.960
<v Speaker 2>and one of the piece of equipment or something fell

594
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:46.599
<v Speaker 2>out of the back of the truck onto the ground,

595
00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:48.920
<v Speaker 2>and we're getting ready to walk out and to go

596
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:50.599
<v Speaker 2>into the woods. We're getting in filled right, and I

597
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:54.119
<v Speaker 2>remember like one of the first calve guys like, hey, hey,

598
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:56.000
<v Speaker 2>can you pick that up and hand it to me?

599
00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:57.599
<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, what the hell?

600
00:31:57.880 --> 00:31:58.720
<v Speaker 1>Like you pick it up?

601
00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:01.000
<v Speaker 2>And he's like, I'm not allowed to put my feet

602
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:01.599
<v Speaker 2>on the ground.

603
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:05.599
<v Speaker 1>So what happens if you have to change a tire?

604
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:08.000
<v Speaker 1>How's that going to work?

605
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:09.359
<v Speaker 2>Hang upside down?

606
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:09.799
<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

607
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:15.079
<v Speaker 2>They're out of luck. Yeah, it was twenty eleven. Was

608
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:17.279
<v Speaker 2>a rough time. It was a shorter trip compared to

609
00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:18.799
<v Speaker 2>my last one. You know, I think it was only

610
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:21.559
<v Speaker 2>like four months. No, it was I'd been six months.

611
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:23.960
<v Speaker 2>Might have been a six month trip, but either way,

612
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:27.640
<v Speaker 2>once the rockets settled down, things sailed down. We was

613
00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:31.440
<v Speaker 2>focused on closing down the fobs and the operations and

614
00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:33.039
<v Speaker 2>getting everything ready.

615
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:33.400
<v Speaker 1>To hand over.

616
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:39.000
<v Speaker 2>Less eventful other than getting rocketed, And you know, I

617
00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:41.160
<v Speaker 2>was glad to see that one done. So now that

618
00:32:41.319 --> 00:32:44.640
<v Speaker 2>was irack trip number three for me and hoped I

619
00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:47.480
<v Speaker 2>had never ever have to go back was not to

620
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:52.680
<v Speaker 2>be so, but that was my last like combat operation

621
00:32:53.359 --> 00:32:55.599
<v Speaker 2>was So that'd been twenty eleven to twelve, was the

622
00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:57.079
<v Speaker 2>last like actual combat.

623
00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:01.519
<v Speaker 1>So then you're back at a fifth group, continuing with

624
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:02.960
<v Speaker 1>your special courses career.

625
00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:08.720
<v Speaker 2>Yep, so we're back. You know, lots of training, you know, SODIC,

626
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:13.160
<v Speaker 2>the sniper course, a Special Operation Target Interdiction course. I

627
00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:17.559
<v Speaker 2>did the level two there at Fort Campbell Cephauic, the

628
00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:24.240
<v Speaker 2>Advanced urb Urban Operations Course there with fifth group. You know,

629
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:27.279
<v Speaker 2>I ended up going to the eighteen Foxtrot Corps. So

630
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:31.519
<v Speaker 2>I was an intelligence sergeant for the team. Lots of

631
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:36.279
<v Speaker 2>lots of training opportunities, UH. Kind of bounced around and

632
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:40.119
<v Speaker 2>then we had you know, deployments every year or twice

633
00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:45.359
<v Speaker 2>a year to j sets UH joint combined Exercise training

634
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:48.440
<v Speaker 2>events UH with partner nations over there in the Middle East.

635
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.640
<v Speaker 2>For me, so I did trips to Lebanon. I think

636
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:56.880
<v Speaker 2>I've been to Jordan probably four or five times. Got

637
00:33:56.920 --> 00:34:01.079
<v Speaker 2>to do UAE for a while, which was nice. That

638
00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:04.000
<v Speaker 2>included by rain on that trip. You know, spend some

639
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:07.519
<v Speaker 2>time in Kwait back in the day. So I feel

640
00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:09.960
<v Speaker 2>like I've been to almost all of them in the

641
00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:12.599
<v Speaker 2>Middle East. I don't know, there's many left to pin

642
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:15.400
<v Speaker 2>on my map, but lots of short trips for those.

643
00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:17.719
<v Speaker 2>So those are two months, four months, you know, here

644
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:19.679
<v Speaker 2>and there once a year, twice a year, depending on

645
00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:22.599
<v Speaker 2>what's going on. And that was from you know, we

646
00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:27.320
<v Speaker 2>got back in twenty twelve from Iraq and then the

647
00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:30.800
<v Speaker 2>team as the fourth Patalions started changing their structure, so

648
00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:36.840
<v Speaker 2>the team got disbanded in twenty fifteen, late twenty fifteen,

649
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:41.239
<v Speaker 2>I think early twenty sixteen, somewhere around there. So you know,

650
00:34:41.320 --> 00:34:43.719
<v Speaker 2>everything changed in the Fourth Paalions then and they weren't

651
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:47.679
<v Speaker 2>doing straight odas anymore, and then everybody had to kind

652
00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:48.519
<v Speaker 2>of go their own ways.

653
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:52.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, before we get into that, I mean, I'd love

654
00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:54.280
<v Speaker 1>to hit you up about, you know, some of the

655
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:58.119
<v Speaker 1>j sets that you went on. I'm not sure where

656
00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:01.400
<v Speaker 1>to start exactly, but like Lebanon. I think the first

657
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:04.440
<v Speaker 1>MTT that Special Courses did and Lebanon was like in

658
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.440
<v Speaker 1>nineteen eighty two or nineteen eighty three, and so we've

659
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:11.159
<v Speaker 1>had kind of like a low key presence there off

660
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:11.400
<v Speaker 1>and on.

661
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:15.840
<v Speaker 2>What was your experience like, Yeah, so I went to

662
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:20.199
<v Speaker 2>Lebanon as a singleton from my team so I was

663
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:22.559
<v Speaker 2>the only one from my team that went. I linked

664
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:27.840
<v Speaker 2>up with the AOB that was there, you know, the

665
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:31.840
<v Speaker 2>company level headquarters for Special Operations that was running all

666
00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:35.039
<v Speaker 2>the partner force training and stuff in the region, and

667
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:38.559
<v Speaker 2>I went there and I had just done the sniper course,

668
00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:43.119
<v Speaker 2>so I went there and helped do a designated marksmanship

669
00:35:43.159 --> 00:35:46.000
<v Speaker 2>course for the Lebanese Special Operations. It was kind of

670
00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:51.639
<v Speaker 2>a mixed bag of their Marine Special Operations and they

671
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:56.639
<v Speaker 2>have their Navy Seal equivalent types and some other rangers.

672
00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:02.400
<v Speaker 2>So ran a target interdiction designated marksmanship course for them.

673
00:36:03.480 --> 00:36:07.239
<v Speaker 2>That was my first exposure of Lebanon and Lebanese So

674
00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:12.440
<v Speaker 2>it's definitely an interesting country. If you've never been, you know,

675
00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:15.440
<v Speaker 2>you'll drive down. I was up in the Hamat area,

676
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:19.519
<v Speaker 2>so north of be Route. There's an air base training

677
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:21.800
<v Speaker 2>area up there. But you know, you're driving through the city,

678
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:23.599
<v Speaker 2>small town, whatever you want to call it, and it's

679
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:26.559
<v Speaker 2>like one city block. You drive down. It's what you

680
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:28.719
<v Speaker 2>would think of the Middle East, as you know, traditional

681
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:31.000
<v Speaker 2>Middle East attire, and the women are wearing you know,

682
00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:35.039
<v Speaker 2>the full head to toe coverings and then you turn

683
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:36.920
<v Speaker 2>a corner and it looks like you're on a beach

684
00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:41.199
<v Speaker 2>in California and women are wearing you know, barely anything

685
00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:43.119
<v Speaker 2>and the men are in you know, board shorts and

686
00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:45.639
<v Speaker 2>flip flops, and it's like, I don't know what's happening

687
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:49.559
<v Speaker 2>here right now. But you know, the neighborhoods are so like,

688
00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:52.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, Muslim to Christian to you know, Druze, like

689
00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:54.599
<v Speaker 2>they're just right on top of each other and everyone

690
00:36:54.679 --> 00:36:58.079
<v Speaker 2>has its own flavor. But I really enjoyed that trip.

691
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:01.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, the Lebanon's beautiful. All the history is amazing,

692
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:06.920
<v Speaker 2>the culture and everything they have going on there. You know,

693
00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:11.800
<v Speaker 2>the soldiers that we worked with were their quality, you

694
00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:14.000
<v Speaker 2>know there I don't think there's enough of them, uh

695
00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:15.960
<v Speaker 2>to kind of go around on the quality side, but

696
00:37:16.280 --> 00:37:18.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, they were pretty good shots and they they

697
00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:22.039
<v Speaker 2>caught on pretty quick. I remember we're up so when

698
00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:24.159
<v Speaker 2>you're up in the Hamad, it's at kind of the

699
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:27.000
<v Speaker 2>top of like a hill mountain area and if you

700
00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:29.079
<v Speaker 2>go all the way down, you're down at the beach

701
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:31.440
<v Speaker 2>and that's where the shooting range was with the beach,

702
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:33.880
<v Speaker 2>and we would you know, drive down there every day.

703
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:36.440
<v Speaker 2>Some days we'd walk down with the soldiers as kind

704
00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:38.639
<v Speaker 2>of a road March, and one day we had the

705
00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:40.840
<v Speaker 2>idea of, hey, let's do a you know, a stalk.

706
00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:43.480
<v Speaker 2>Let's have them stalk down and we're gonna try to

707
00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:46.880
<v Speaker 2>see them coming towards the beach with bino's and stuff.

708
00:37:47.159 --> 00:37:50.440
<v Speaker 2>And I tell the Lebanese captain, I'm like, hey, I'm

709
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:53.280
<v Speaker 2>going to walk with the with the boys down there.

710
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:55.079
<v Speaker 2>I want to follow them and see how they do.

711
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:57.360
<v Speaker 2>And he just kind of laughed. He's like, all right,

712
00:37:57.400 --> 00:37:59.840
<v Speaker 2>good luck. He's like, they're a part mountain goat. I

713
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:03.840
<v Speaker 2>just warning you, And he wasn't kidding. Those guys like

714
00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:08.679
<v Speaker 2>I have never seen like mountain movement like that before.

715
00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:11.840
<v Speaker 2>They had rucks on, they had long rifles, they had

716
00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:14.639
<v Speaker 2>all their gear, and they were just hopping foot to

717
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:17.360
<v Speaker 2>foot from like, you know, boulder to boulder all the

718
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:19.800
<v Speaker 2>way down. You know, one wrong step is you know,

719
00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:22.760
<v Speaker 2>a broken leg or they didn't. They didn't seem to care,

720
00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:24.920
<v Speaker 2>so they left me in the dust. I had to

721
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:27.119
<v Speaker 2>end up pitting on the road, as embarrassing it is,

722
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:29.400
<v Speaker 2>But I don't know how they got down that quick.

723
00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:32.440
<v Speaker 2>I think probably because they've used that route, you know,

724
00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:35.519
<v Speaker 2>one hundred times and I've never done it. But uh yeah,

725
00:38:35.559 --> 00:38:37.920
<v Speaker 2>they were. You know, it was an interesting trip. Learned

726
00:38:37.960 --> 00:38:39.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot from those guys and hopefully taught a lot,

727
00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:44.239
<v Speaker 2>made some good memories and some friends over there that

728
00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:46.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, last a while.

729
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:49.960
<v Speaker 1>So and then it sounds like you're bouncing back and

730
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:53.159
<v Speaker 1>forth to Jordan quite a bit. And Jordan features in

731
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:55.400
<v Speaker 1>your novel a good deal also.

732
00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:59.239
<v Speaker 2>Yep, no, Jordan's you know the made it into the

733
00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:02.199
<v Speaker 2>novel as the location because I spent probably other than Iraq,

734
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:04.639
<v Speaker 2>I spent more time in Jordan than anywhere else. I

735
00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:06.639
<v Speaker 2>do think I've probably been there four or five times.

736
00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:10.199
<v Speaker 2>A lot of time in northern Jordan. Most of the

737
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:13.480
<v Speaker 2>time in northern Jordan UH training with you know, the

738
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:18.760
<v Speaker 2>Jordanian Special Operations guys, the hundred First and a couple

739
00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:20.559
<v Speaker 2>of the other units I can't think of now, but

740
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:23.000
<v Speaker 2>a lot of a lot of time in Jordan, a

741
00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:26.039
<v Speaker 2>lot of downtime in Jordan. I've seen all there is

742
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:28.079
<v Speaker 2>I think to see in that country at this point,

743
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:32.159
<v Speaker 2>and spent a lot of time there. But I was

744
00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:35.360
<v Speaker 2>doing Jordan trips. We did a j set I think

745
00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:38.199
<v Speaker 2>was the Jay said to Jordan was before I went

746
00:39:38.239 --> 00:39:41.360
<v Speaker 2>to Lebanon. It was my first trip to the Middle

747
00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:43.840
<v Speaker 2>East when it wasn't like a combat deployment, you know,

748
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:46.440
<v Speaker 2>so it was a kind of a cultural shock for me.

749
00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:50.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, we get a rental car and we leave

750
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:54.159
<v Speaker 2>the airport and we're driving through you know, Aman, and

751
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:56.079
<v Speaker 2>when you're in some of the outskirts of Aman, like

752
00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:59.840
<v Speaker 2>it looks like Iraq. You know, it's the same kind

753
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:02.519
<v Speaker 2>of buildings and writing and everything is in your like,

754
00:40:03.480 --> 00:40:05.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, it wasn't six months ago I was fully

755
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:07.800
<v Speaker 2>kitted up with a gun in a place like this,

756
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:11.519
<v Speaker 2>and now we're in civilian clothes going through the same neighborhoods,

757
00:40:11.559 --> 00:40:13.000
<v Speaker 2>and you know, it kind of makes you a little

758
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:17.719
<v Speaker 2>nervous first time experiencing that from the other side. So

759
00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:20.440
<v Speaker 2>it was a good, good trip and you know, eye

760
00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:23.920
<v Speaker 2>opening and seeing that there's more to you know, special

761
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:27.599
<v Speaker 2>Forces than just combat operations and you know, working with partners,

762
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:32.280
<v Speaker 2>and you know, I've been fortunate enough to travel a

763
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:33.960
<v Speaker 2>lot to a lot of countries and meet a lot

764
00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:37.199
<v Speaker 2>of interesting people over there, and Jordan was definitely high

765
00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:37.719
<v Speaker 2>on the list.

766
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:42.719
<v Speaker 1>And they have like pretty extensive training facilities over there too,

767
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:43.119
<v Speaker 1>don't they.

768
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:47.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they do, so they're you know, the main training

769
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:53.360
<v Speaker 2>facility Casotic that's what King Abdulah Special Operations Training Center

770
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:57.679
<v Speaker 2>in northern Jordan has, you know, all the bells and whistles,

771
00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:03.760
<v Speaker 2>shoot houses, shoot villages, you know, mount city villages, sniper ranges,

772
00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:06.119
<v Speaker 2>machine gun ranges, all the all the bells and whistles

773
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:08.599
<v Speaker 2>you need out there for doing any kind of training

774
00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:11.039
<v Speaker 2>you want to do. Uh, then you can you know,

775
00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:13.320
<v Speaker 2>head out from the city and you have open desert,

776
00:41:13.480 --> 00:41:17.559
<v Speaker 2>open terrain, you can drive around, do vehicle maneuvers, live fires,

777
00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:20.280
<v Speaker 2>all sorts of stuff out there. You just have to

778
00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:23.880
<v Speaker 2>watch out for the bed one that also came up

779
00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:24.360
<v Speaker 2>in the book.

780
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:28.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, how what what did you think about the Jordaining

781
00:41:28.840 --> 00:41:29.920
<v Speaker 1>and Special Ops guys.

782
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:34.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so they're you know, they're I cannot remember the

783
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:40.039
<v Speaker 2>nomenclature of their kind of premiere special operations unit now,

784
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:43.519
<v Speaker 2>and I apologize for those out there listening. But we

785
00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:46.199
<v Speaker 2>did a lot with the hundred first, so that was

786
00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:50.199
<v Speaker 2>like a mixed bag of you know, entry level two

787
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:54.000
<v Speaker 2>more senior special operators. So you know, we come in,

788
00:41:54.199 --> 00:41:56.639
<v Speaker 2>we get handed a lot of the entry level folks

789
00:41:56.679 --> 00:41:58.519
<v Speaker 2>who need to learn how to shoot better and to

790
00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:01.199
<v Speaker 2>move and communicate and you know, move through building. So

791
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:05.320
<v Speaker 2>but even then they're you know, they're motivated and they're trying,

792
00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:07.920
<v Speaker 2>and you know they want to be more proficient at

793
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:11.480
<v Speaker 2>ITU and then their premiere one. You know, those guys

794
00:42:11.559 --> 00:42:16.760
<v Speaker 2>are top notch counter terrorism operators. We had nothing but

795
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:17.760
<v Speaker 2>respect for them.

796
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:21.599
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797
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:25.519
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798
00:42:25.639 --> 00:42:28.039
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799
00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:32.079
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800
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801
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802
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806
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807
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811
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819
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:45.639
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823
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<v Speaker 1>In around this time frame, I'm just sort of, uh,

824
00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:03.800
<v Speaker 1>sort of imagining in the back of my mind here

825
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:07.119
<v Speaker 1>are we starting getting into, like the rise of Isis

826
00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:09.480
<v Speaker 1>and the Syrian Civil War? And is that sort of

827
00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:11.639
<v Speaker 1>stuff starting to play into these deployments at all.

828
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:14.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's starting to hit. And you know, as a

829
00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:18.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, eighteen Fox for a lot of these you know,

830
00:44:18.760 --> 00:44:22.039
<v Speaker 2>Jordan trips and some of the other ones. You know,

831
00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:24.239
<v Speaker 2>I'm keeping an eye on things that are going up

832
00:44:24.519 --> 00:44:30.679
<v Speaker 2>in Syria and you know, Egypt and Libya, you know

833
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:33.320
<v Speaker 2>kind of you know, Yemen was hot at the time,

834
00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:36.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, so there's a lot going on in the

835
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:39.760
<v Speaker 2>whole region with that whole Arab Spring kind of movement

836
00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:43.280
<v Speaker 2>pushing around and all the riots and protests, and you know,

837
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:47.719
<v Speaker 2>seeing what was going on in Syria with the you know,

838
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:52.159
<v Speaker 2>the civil war hit the southern Syria first, right, so

839
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:55.320
<v Speaker 2>that's where it kind of started, and the Dara government

840
00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:58.199
<v Speaker 2>down there in the south, and you know that's right

841
00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:02.440
<v Speaker 2>on the border with Jordan. It's really you know, stones

842
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:05.440
<v Speaker 2>throw from where we're at in northern Jordan, if we're

843
00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:09.400
<v Speaker 2>at that cosotic location, and you know, the Jordanians definitely

844
00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:12.960
<v Speaker 2>worry about it, you know, because that their country can't

845
00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:17.039
<v Speaker 2>handle a whole lot of refugee uh you know, crisis

846
00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:19.199
<v Speaker 2>at you know, any given time. They just don't have

847
00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:22.800
<v Speaker 2>the capabilities or the resources to handle a bunch of

848
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:26.360
<v Speaker 2>refugees and absorb a bunch of refugees. So I know

849
00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:30.679
<v Speaker 2>they were setting up and trying to push like refugee

850
00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:34.159
<v Speaker 2>camps on the Syrian side of the border of Jordan,

851
00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:37.119
<v Speaker 2>but just near Jordan, so they could funnel resources and

852
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:39.360
<v Speaker 2>food and water to them, but keep them in Syria

853
00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:43.519
<v Speaker 2>because Jordan didn't want that influx down in their own territory.

854
00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:45.400
<v Speaker 2>So there was a lot of border stuff going on

855
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:49.719
<v Speaker 2>up there. You know, drones and you know, those kind

856
00:45:49.719 --> 00:45:53.480
<v Speaker 2>of technologies weren't really prevalent yet. I mean, large scale

857
00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:57.719
<v Speaker 2>ISR type birds were up there, but nothing, nothing small,

858
00:45:57.880 --> 00:45:59.800
<v Speaker 2>that's nothing that we would use or that that we

859
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:02.239
<v Speaker 2>teach them how to use to keep eyes on their border,

860
00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:06.440
<v Speaker 2>because their border, for you know, for most of the

861
00:46:06.519 --> 00:46:09.199
<v Speaker 2>whole stretch of it, it's just a dirt burn right,

862
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:12.159
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing to it, so anybody can get over it.

863
00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:15.000
<v Speaker 2>They do have border guards and border patrols and all

864
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:17.000
<v Speaker 2>that stuff, but it's just such a large border to

865
00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:22.280
<v Speaker 2>patrol and keep everybody out. So that was definitely you know, happening.

866
00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:27.480
<v Speaker 2>Weren't seeing ISIS at the time yet, you know, that

867
00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:31.559
<v Speaker 2>was more starting to see some of the beginnings of

868
00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:36.559
<v Speaker 2>Neustra front so al Kaeda type stuff, but you know,

869
00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:38.679
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't seeing a whole lot of Like I don't

870
00:46:38.679 --> 00:46:41.840
<v Speaker 2>remember when ISIS finally emerge. I forget what year that

871
00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:49.519
<v Speaker 2>was now, but maybe yeah, thirteen fourteen, so yeah, that

872
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:52.519
<v Speaker 2>was yeah, I'm trying to remember now, but I don't

873
00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:55.280
<v Speaker 2>remember seeing a lot of ISIS stuff on the Jordan trips.

874
00:46:56.679 --> 00:47:00.159
<v Speaker 2>I think we kind of disbanded as a team, right

875
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:04.639
<v Speaker 2>His ISIS was starting to get going, turning to emerge

876
00:47:05.320 --> 00:47:07.880
<v Speaker 2>like a as a real threat in the area.

877
00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:11.719
<v Speaker 1>And then tell us about the trip to the u

878
00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:13.880
<v Speaker 1>A A. Uh spending time over there.

879
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:17.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'd like to, you know, give a sob story

880
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:21.519
<v Speaker 2>and say it was horrible, but it was not. So

881
00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:24.639
<v Speaker 2>I was my position there. I was there by myself.

882
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:28.280
<v Speaker 2>My team was spread out doing different missions, but we

883
00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:33.159
<v Speaker 2>were working for the joint headquarters in Bahrain, and I

884
00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:38.800
<v Speaker 2>was the liaison to the Imirati Special Operators Special Operations Command,

885
00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:42.320
<v Speaker 2>So my job was to you know, sit in there

886
00:47:42.440 --> 00:47:45.159
<v Speaker 2>with with them and liaise with them and set up

887
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:50.159
<v Speaker 2>training for you know SME, SME events and other units

888
00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:52.880
<v Speaker 2>to come down and work with them. Uh. If there

889
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:55.760
<v Speaker 2>was you know, VIPs or guests coming in, I have

890
00:47:55.800 --> 00:47:57.719
<v Speaker 2>to meet him at the airport and get them in

891
00:47:57.840 --> 00:47:59.400
<v Speaker 2>and get them to a hotel and kind of show

892
00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:01.840
<v Speaker 2>them the later. But yeah, it was a four month

893
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:05.760
<v Speaker 2>trip living by myself and u AE. It was definitely

894
00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:08.920
<v Speaker 2>not rough in it. You know, they had us put

895
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:11.760
<v Speaker 2>up in a very nice hotel for those four months,

896
00:48:11.800 --> 00:48:13.480
<v Speaker 2>so I cannot complain about that one.

897
00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:16.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's oh, I'm glad that you know that you're

898
00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:19.360
<v Speaker 1>telling some of these stories about some of these experiences,

899
00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:23.679
<v Speaker 1>because people think Special Forces is about you know, rocking

900
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:25.800
<v Speaker 1>through the swamp with a knife in your teeth or

901
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:28.079
<v Speaker 1>something like that, and really so much of the job

902
00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:29.800
<v Speaker 1>is about being a coordinator, isn't it.

903
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:32.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it is. You know, you got to be the

904
00:48:33.960 --> 00:48:36.440
<v Speaker 2>you got to go from one hand, you know, one trip,

905
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:38.079
<v Speaker 2>you might be the guy with the knife in your

906
00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:42.159
<v Speaker 2>teeth and then you know, four months later, you're you know,

907
00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:45.480
<v Speaker 2>wearing a suit talking to you know, three or four

908
00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:48.199
<v Speaker 2>star general and picking them up from the airport and

909
00:48:48.280 --> 00:48:52.920
<v Speaker 2>then introducing him to an emmorati general who doesn't speak

910
00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:55.079
<v Speaker 2>much English and you're trying to help out so they

911
00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:56.920
<v Speaker 2>could at least say hi to each other, you know.

912
00:48:58.039 --> 00:49:02.159
<v Speaker 2>So it it's definitely you know, on the special forces side.

913
00:49:02.280 --> 00:49:04.880
<v Speaker 2>And I talked about this on a different show is on,

914
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:08.360
<v Speaker 2>But you know special operations right large, everybody has a specialty.

915
00:49:08.679 --> 00:49:11.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, seals, you know have the water, you know

916
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.639
<v Speaker 2>mar sok is, you know Marine Corps, you know in

917
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:17.840
<v Speaker 2>the Navy and you have you know, everyone has their

918
00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:20.920
<v Speaker 2>little piece of the pie. But I think, obviously I'm biased,

919
00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:24.000
<v Speaker 2>but Special Forces I think has the largest piece of

920
00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:26.639
<v Speaker 2>the pie because we have to be, you know, so

921
00:49:26.840 --> 00:49:29.920
<v Speaker 2>good at so many unexpected things. You just have to

922
00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:33.119
<v Speaker 2>be a thinker and a problem solver, and then you

923
00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:35.280
<v Speaker 2>get put into the problems and you have to decide

924
00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:39.039
<v Speaker 2>is the solution, you know, violence, or is the solution

925
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:42.480
<v Speaker 2>diplomacy And you have to be able to balance those

926
00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:46.280
<v Speaker 2>equally and apply each one equally, you know, on a

927
00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:47.119
<v Speaker 2>moment's notice.

928
00:49:49.199 --> 00:49:53.000
<v Speaker 1>So we get up to twenty and sixteen, and you

929
00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:55.960
<v Speaker 1>mentioned that the team gets to standard, and I mean,

930
00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:58.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry to even ask, because I sort of know

931
00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:01.360
<v Speaker 1>the answer. I mean, well, was that like to be

932
00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:03.119
<v Speaker 1>on the team for so long and put so much

933
00:50:03.159 --> 00:50:05.199
<v Speaker 1>work into it and then kind of get told like, yeah,

934
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:06.880
<v Speaker 1>you guys don't exist anymore.

935
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:10.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was rough. You know, we were the last

936
00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:14.400
<v Speaker 2>standing ODA and fourth Time, so we have that to

937
00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:18.320
<v Speaker 2>our title. But eventually they all had to go away,

938
00:50:18.639 --> 00:50:22.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, Fourth Time got restructured. Everyone had to kind

939
00:50:22.760 --> 00:50:24.840
<v Speaker 2>of make decisions where do they want to go next?

940
00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:26.800
<v Speaker 2>Do they want to go find another ODEA, do they

941
00:50:26.840 --> 00:50:29.679
<v Speaker 2>want to go to a specialty team? They want to

942
00:50:29.719 --> 00:50:32.039
<v Speaker 2>go to Swick. You know, what do we what do

943
00:50:32.119 --> 00:50:35.440
<v Speaker 2>you want to do? Some guys chose, you know a

944
00:50:35.480 --> 00:50:38.440
<v Speaker 2>little mix of everything, and everybody kind of went their

945
00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:41.320
<v Speaker 2>own ways. We're still stay in touch, you know, we

946
00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:43.480
<v Speaker 2>were on a team, close team for quite a while.

947
00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:48.480
<v Speaker 2>We still talk pretty regularly. Yeah, everybody just had to

948
00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:52.559
<v Speaker 2>pick what their next adventure was going to be. For me,

949
00:50:52.760 --> 00:50:54.960
<v Speaker 2>I went, I was ready for a break, you know,

950
00:50:55.039 --> 00:50:57.440
<v Speaker 2>I'd been going pretty heavy for most of my career.

951
00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:02.320
<v Speaker 2>So I went and joined up with the Special Warfare

952
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:07.119
<v Speaker 2>Planning Detachment out of Fourth Time. We're responsible for, you know,

953
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:11.920
<v Speaker 2>doing operational level kind of planning for Fifth Group predominantly,

954
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:15.320
<v Speaker 2>but really Special Operations rit large. So I went down

955
00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:20.360
<v Speaker 2>to Special Operations Command Central sockscent down in Tampa, took

956
00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:24.840
<v Speaker 2>a break down there for about two years doing you know,

957
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:27.760
<v Speaker 2>larger scale planning. Got to see behind the curtain a

958
00:51:27.800 --> 00:51:30.840
<v Speaker 2>little bit, got to learn what you know strategy and

959
00:51:31.119 --> 00:51:36.440
<v Speaker 2>you know operational tactics and maneuverability and you know logistics

960
00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:39.719
<v Speaker 2>and how all this comes into play on the big

961
00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:42.440
<v Speaker 2>scale and the big picture piece of it. As before,

962
00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:45.519
<v Speaker 2>my you know, my wheelhouse was very small, very niche

963
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:48.280
<v Speaker 2>like I was the eighteen Bravo was the eighteen Fox.

964
00:51:48.719 --> 00:51:51.519
<v Speaker 2>I knew my little area of operations. I paid attention

965
00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:55.119
<v Speaker 2>to what was happening in the region, but you know,

966
00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:57.119
<v Speaker 2>my time at SOCKS and I was able to see

967
00:51:57.159 --> 00:52:01.719
<v Speaker 2>what's happening in syentcom you know, Central Area responsibility and

968
00:52:02.280 --> 00:52:06.079
<v Speaker 2>how you know, an action in Jordan effects an action

969
00:52:06.280 --> 00:52:09.639
<v Speaker 2>and UAE and Iraq and how it's all kind of

970
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:12.599
<v Speaker 2>interplayed and tied together. So it was a really good

971
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:17.000
<v Speaker 2>time broadening. Definitely broadening for me to kind of learn

972
00:52:17.079 --> 00:52:20.199
<v Speaker 2>some of the big picture stuff. Yeah. I did that

973
00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:23.880
<v Speaker 2>for two years and then came back to Fort Campbell

974
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:27.079
<v Speaker 2>and I took over the Fort Campbell side of the

975
00:52:27.239 --> 00:52:32.440
<v Speaker 2>planning detachment as the senior enlisted advisor. So it's technically

976
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:37.119
<v Speaker 2>a company, but there's only about sixteen of us. So

977
00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:40.039
<v Speaker 2>I took over that position and then did that for

978
00:52:40.119 --> 00:52:43.960
<v Speaker 2>the next three ish four years, I guess until I

979
00:52:44.039 --> 00:52:46.239
<v Speaker 2>retired twenty twenty three.

980
00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:50.679
<v Speaker 1>Was this like mostly contingency planning that you guys were working.

981
00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:56.639
<v Speaker 2>On contingency planning kind of theater you know, annual theater

982
00:52:57.079 --> 00:53:02.639
<v Speaker 2>composition planning like you name it. We would get called to, hey,

983
00:53:03.159 --> 00:53:06.039
<v Speaker 2>you know this is coming up. We need some content

984
00:53:06.199 --> 00:53:10.360
<v Speaker 2>contingency plans for this in case, you know, something kicks off,

985
00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:12.400
<v Speaker 2>we need to know what that looks like. And they

986
00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:15.760
<v Speaker 2>would bring us up to wherever that planning operation was happening,

987
00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:17.599
<v Speaker 2>and we'd get involved with it and help out and

988
00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:20.599
<v Speaker 2>bring our you know, expertise to it, because you know,

989
00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:24.400
<v Speaker 2>you've got a lot of these headquarters aren't always staffed

990
00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:28.280
<v Speaker 2>by special operations people, so you know, they would be

991
00:53:28.519 --> 00:53:31.519
<v Speaker 2>doing planning and they would say, hey, we want you know,

992
00:53:32.159 --> 00:53:35.920
<v Speaker 2>five o DA's next year for this, and we'd be like,

993
00:53:36.039 --> 00:53:38.880
<v Speaker 2>that's never going to happen. You're not getting that many,

994
00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:41.480
<v Speaker 2>but let us come help you plan it and we'll

995
00:53:41.519 --> 00:53:43.679
<v Speaker 2>give you what's actually realistic and we'll help you meet

996
00:53:43.719 --> 00:53:46.400
<v Speaker 2>the same objectives that you're trying to get. So there's

997
00:53:46.400 --> 00:53:49.639
<v Speaker 2>a lot of that type stuff, but it was fun.

998
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:52.159
<v Speaker 2>I got to learn a lot kind of big picture stuff,

999
00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:53.920
<v Speaker 2>like I mentioned, I got to learn a lot about

1000
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:57.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, operational design. I got to learn a little

1001
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:03.079
<v Speaker 2>bit about, you know, the higher level military planning. Got

1002
00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:06.719
<v Speaker 2>to do a trip to Israel and hang out with

1003
00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:12.360
<v Speaker 2>the Israeli General Officer College for a couple of weeks.

1004
00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:16.920
<v Speaker 2>One of the instructors. There is retired general named Shimone Navay.

1005
00:54:18.159 --> 00:54:20.679
<v Speaker 2>Some people will either love him or hate him. Apparently

1006
00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:24.960
<v Speaker 2>he's a contentious guy over there, but he's kind. He's

1007
00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:29.320
<v Speaker 2>the actual architect of the Army design methodology that we

1008
00:54:29.480 --> 00:54:31.880
<v Speaker 2>use right now, So he came up with that when

1009
00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:35.039
<v Speaker 2>he worked at SOCOM for a while. So he's a

1010
00:54:35.159 --> 00:54:39.840
<v Speaker 2>very brilliant guy, real creative thinker. So I really got

1011
00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:42.079
<v Speaker 2>to see kind of behind the curtain on some of

1012
00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:45.239
<v Speaker 2>these things where it's like, we don't have to follow

1013
00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:49.480
<v Speaker 2>the military decision making process when we do these plans,

1014
00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:52.199
<v Speaker 2>because if you do nine times out of ten, we

1015
00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:54.360
<v Speaker 2>all come to the same conclusion. Right, So how do

1016
00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:59.000
<v Speaker 2>we apply creativity to planning as opposed to just following

1017
00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:02.199
<v Speaker 2>a checklist, it done and then just going over there

1018
00:55:02.239 --> 00:55:04.119
<v Speaker 2>and trying to solve it on the ground, right, How

1019
00:55:04.159 --> 00:55:05.400
<v Speaker 2>do we get the right resources?

1020
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:08.159
<v Speaker 1>M d MP is all about, like, at its heart,

1021
00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:11.719
<v Speaker 1>really it's like risk mitigation, right, yeah, it is. It is.

1022
00:55:11.920 --> 00:55:15.320
<v Speaker 2>It's risk mitigation and then setting up the structure so

1023
00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:20.159
<v Speaker 2>you can have appropriate logistics to go with whatever elements

1024
00:55:20.239 --> 00:55:23.719
<v Speaker 2>now getting put into theater. But the some of the

1025
00:55:23.800 --> 00:55:27.519
<v Speaker 2>design stuff that I really got into was you know,

1026
00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:30.440
<v Speaker 2>how do you if you do action X, how is

1027
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:33.039
<v Speaker 2>that going to affect you know, the other side of

1028
00:55:33.079 --> 00:55:37.320
<v Speaker 2>the equation, And then trying to play with okay, well,

1029
00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:40.719
<v Speaker 2>if if we do action X on purpose, what is

1030
00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:43.719
<v Speaker 2>that second order effect actually going to be? You know,

1031
00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:46.320
<v Speaker 2>and you know, maybe we need to do action Y

1032
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:48.960
<v Speaker 2>instead in order to cause that second order effect, not

1033
00:55:49.079 --> 00:55:52.400
<v Speaker 2>just the first order effect we wanted. So it's really

1034
00:55:52.719 --> 00:55:55.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, a couple of layers deep higher level thinking

1035
00:55:57.280 --> 00:55:59.280
<v Speaker 2>that you know, I just really enjoyed the heck out

1036
00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:02.800
<v Speaker 2>of it. I think really that that set the foundation

1037
00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:05.320
<v Speaker 2>for me on you know, wanting to go down the

1038
00:56:05.400 --> 00:56:09.719
<v Speaker 2>pipeline of writing a book, especially like the book that

1039
00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:11.800
<v Speaker 2>I wrote. But we'll get into you know, why I

1040
00:56:11.840 --> 00:56:14.239
<v Speaker 2>did it and what what the intent is. But I

1041
00:56:14.320 --> 00:56:18.239
<v Speaker 2>wanted to be able to show what that you know,

1042
00:56:18.400 --> 00:56:21.000
<v Speaker 2>new scenario could be because I see so many people

1043
00:56:21.079 --> 00:56:24.239
<v Speaker 2>are just washing and repeating, you know, the same stuff

1044
00:56:24.280 --> 00:56:26.400
<v Speaker 2>that they're being told over and over again, and they're

1045
00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:30.920
<v Speaker 2>not applying that critical creative thought to how you know,

1046
00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:34.559
<v Speaker 2>the future could change very quickly, and so.

1047
00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:38.599
<v Speaker 1>You retire out of the group, and where do you

1048
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:39.400
<v Speaker 1>go next?

1049
00:56:40.559 --> 00:56:45.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So I retired in twenty twenty three and immediately

1050
00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:49.480
<v Speaker 2>found a position with the company I'm with now. Just

1051
00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:53.519
<v Speaker 2>happened to meet a guy in Nashville at Soft's you know,

1052
00:56:53.599 --> 00:56:57.599
<v Speaker 2>special operations gathering that we do, you know, quarterly at

1053
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:01.039
<v Speaker 2>one brewer he or another, and and uh, I was like, hey,

1054
00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:03.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm retiring, I'm open for work, looking for a job,

1055
00:57:04.039 --> 00:57:07.119
<v Speaker 2>and another guy introduced himself said you know, I work

1056
00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:10.880
<v Speaker 2>for a military innovation company. And I was like, well

1057
00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:14.079
<v Speaker 2>that sounds interesting. And like I said, you know, at

1058
00:57:14.119 --> 00:57:16.360
<v Speaker 2>this point, I'm all in on this, like creative thinking

1059
00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:18.559
<v Speaker 2>and like looking at things differently. And when I heard

1060
00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:21.159
<v Speaker 2>the word innovation, I said, well, I need to see

1061
00:57:21.159 --> 00:57:25.440
<v Speaker 2>what this is all about. So talk to this you

1062
00:57:25.519 --> 00:57:28.679
<v Speaker 2>know guy for a while. Found out that, you know,

1063
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:30.760
<v Speaker 2>what he's doing is something right up the alley of

1064
00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:32.360
<v Speaker 2>what I would love to get involved with.

1065
00:57:33.119 --> 00:57:33.239
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

1066
00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:36.840
<v Speaker 2>So I applied for the company and took a position

1067
00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:41.559
<v Speaker 2>the company's Civil Military Innovation Institute or seeing I two

1068
00:57:42.280 --> 00:57:45.960
<v Speaker 2>and we work different government contracts. Uh. The one that

1069
00:57:46.280 --> 00:57:50.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm currently focused on is an Army research labs program

1070
00:57:50.679 --> 00:57:55.960
<v Speaker 2>called Catalyst Pathfinder. Catalyst Pathfinder, what it is is, you know,

1071
00:57:56.039 --> 00:58:00.280
<v Speaker 2>we you see so much on the know, when you

1072
00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:06.280
<v Speaker 2>hear like innovation or big army requirements and new technologies,

1073
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:08.599
<v Speaker 2>it's all top down driven stuff. So you got the

1074
00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:13.960
<v Speaker 2>F thirty fives and you know, new tanks and you know,

1075
00:58:14.039 --> 00:58:16.800
<v Speaker 2>whatever new vehicle or new weapons system that's getting fielded

1076
00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:20.199
<v Speaker 2>out there. But for me, like I'm more interested in

1077
00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:23.320
<v Speaker 2>what's coming from the soldiers and their ideas. So this

1078
00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:25.800
<v Speaker 2>when I heard about this program, I jumped all over it.

1079
00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:32.159
<v Speaker 2>So Catalyst Pathfinder is soldier driven tactical innovation. So we

1080
00:58:32.360 --> 00:58:36.360
<v Speaker 2>partner at the unit level and we'll set up you

1081
00:58:36.440 --> 00:58:38.840
<v Speaker 2>know what we call like dirt labs or maker spaces,

1082
00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:42.639
<v Speaker 2>So we put in three D printers, see and C machines,

1083
00:58:42.880 --> 00:58:46.840
<v Speaker 2>fab you know, textiles, whatever it is, and we'll set

1084
00:58:46.920 --> 00:58:51.079
<v Speaker 2>up these maker spaces that the unit runs with us.

1085
00:58:51.679 --> 00:58:53.679
<v Speaker 2>And then you know, soldiers come in, they have an

1086
00:58:53.719 --> 00:58:56.360
<v Speaker 2>idea for something, and we'll help them try to build it.

1087
00:58:56.679 --> 00:58:58.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, we have the CAD files, you know, the

1088
00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:02.440
<v Speaker 2>cat expertise, we have the engineer support, and we'll try

1089
00:59:02.480 --> 00:59:06.039
<v Speaker 2>to help them solve whatever problem they have, whether that's

1090
00:59:06.119 --> 00:59:09.320
<v Speaker 2>a new piece of equipment, a different type of rucksack,

1091
00:59:09.639 --> 00:59:13.719
<v Speaker 2>a new pouch, or you know, a new drone. You know,

1092
00:59:13.800 --> 00:59:15.639
<v Speaker 2>we try to figure out how we can get them

1093
00:59:15.800 --> 00:59:19.480
<v Speaker 2>the solutions they need at the tactical level. So there's

1094
00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:23.119
<v Speaker 2>no like long army requirements process. It's just here's what

1095
00:59:23.239 --> 00:59:25.400
<v Speaker 2>they want. We're going to put them under, you know,

1096
00:59:25.760 --> 00:59:28.320
<v Speaker 2>a contract to get this done as quick as possible.

1097
00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:32.199
<v Speaker 2>And we do that either down or hands getting dirty

1098
00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:35.920
<v Speaker 2>in the shop, or if it's something that hey we

1099
00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:39.639
<v Speaker 2>can't you know, we don't have the expertise, or it's

1100
00:59:39.679 --> 00:59:42.199
<v Speaker 2>two time consuming to do ourselves here in the house,

1101
00:59:42.719 --> 00:59:47.519
<v Speaker 2>then I can contract out through partnerships with universities or

1102
00:59:47.679 --> 00:59:51.039
<v Speaker 2>with small industry so you know, a smaller business, not

1103
00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:54.000
<v Speaker 2>the big prime vendors that I'll never get anything done with,

1104
00:59:54.280 --> 00:59:59.039
<v Speaker 2>but a small you know, young company that yeah, somebody

1105
00:59:59.039 --> 01:00:02.800
<v Speaker 2>who's eager, you know, or a small drone company or whatever.

1106
01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:05.320
<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, hey, this is what the unit wants.

1107
01:00:05.960 --> 01:00:09.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm willing to pay you, you know, to knock this

1108
01:00:09.320 --> 01:00:11.719
<v Speaker 2>out for us and get the answers and get the

1109
01:00:11.840 --> 01:00:15.519
<v Speaker 2>capability to the soldier as quick as possible. So that

1110
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:19.719
<v Speaker 2>that's essentially what I do. Now. I work again at

1111
01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:22.000
<v Speaker 2>Fifth Group. Again, I didn't go far. I'm stealing forth

1112
01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:26.559
<v Speaker 2>Italian and we set up a innovation shop. Fifth Group's

1113
01:00:26.559 --> 01:00:30.559
<v Speaker 2>been all in on the innovation work, and you know,

1114
01:00:30.639 --> 01:00:34.400
<v Speaker 2>we've been just knocking project after project out down there

1115
01:00:35.039 --> 01:00:37.320
<v Speaker 2>and they've been, you know, eating it up. They've been

1116
01:00:37.360 --> 01:00:40.519
<v Speaker 2>doing amazing stuff. So really pushing the limit on capabilities.

1117
01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:43.480
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how much you're allowed to say, but

1118
01:00:43.719 --> 01:00:46.000
<v Speaker 1>I mean, i'd love to hear if you can about like,

1119
01:00:46.079 --> 01:00:47.880
<v Speaker 1>what are some of the cooler things that guys have,

1120
01:00:48.079 --> 01:00:49.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, cooler projects that the guys have come to

1121
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:51.440
<v Speaker 1>you with that you were able to help with.

1122
01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:54.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so i'd say one of them that we could

1123
01:00:55.039 --> 01:00:58.400
<v Speaker 2>definitely talk about because you know there's articles out there

1124
01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:03.119
<v Speaker 2>about it now. But I had a Fifth Group soldier

1125
01:01:03.320 --> 01:01:05.159
<v Speaker 2>come in and say, hey, you know, we have all

1126
01:01:05.199 --> 01:01:09.760
<v Speaker 2>these program of record expensive drones that we get issued,

1127
01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:12.400
<v Speaker 2>but we can't do much with them because if we

1128
01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:16.119
<v Speaker 2>break them, we can't fix them. And two, we work

1129
01:01:16.159 --> 01:01:20.719
<v Speaker 2>with partners overseas, we can't let them technically fly them

1130
01:01:20.920 --> 01:01:23.760
<v Speaker 2>because they're program of record equipment, so you're not supposed

1131
01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:28.719
<v Speaker 2>to allow that. So they wanted a repairable drone that

1132
01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:32.639
<v Speaker 2>they could build and teach partner forces how to use

1133
01:01:32.920 --> 01:01:36.079
<v Speaker 2>so they can get their hands on some equipment. So

1134
01:01:36.599 --> 01:01:43.880
<v Speaker 2>I found a company out of Knoxville called Echo mav Technologies,

1135
01:01:44.719 --> 01:01:47.039
<v Speaker 2>and I came to him and said, hey, you know,

1136
01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:49.159
<v Speaker 2>this is what they want. We would love to see

1137
01:01:49.159 --> 01:01:52.239
<v Speaker 2>a three D printed you know SRR so a short

1138
01:01:52.320 --> 01:01:55.880
<v Speaker 2>range reconnaissance type bird, not like a first person view

1139
01:01:56.000 --> 01:01:57.679
<v Speaker 2>thing you see in Ukraine all the time, but like

1140
01:01:57.719 --> 01:02:02.199
<v Speaker 2>an actual like reconnaissance cloud copter. We want three D pended.

1141
01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:04.400
<v Speaker 2>We want the soldiers to be able to build it themselves,

1142
01:02:04.679 --> 01:02:07.559
<v Speaker 2>and we want it to be, you know, as capable

1143
01:02:07.599 --> 01:02:09.639
<v Speaker 2>as some of the bigger name things, but with cheaper

1144
01:02:09.719 --> 01:02:13.159
<v Speaker 2>components so it doesn't cost so much. And you know,

1145
01:02:13.239 --> 01:02:16.039
<v Speaker 2>within six months we had a working finished, you know,

1146
01:02:16.119 --> 01:02:20.800
<v Speaker 2>almost finished prototype that you know, Fifth Group has started

1147
01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:24.639
<v Speaker 2>using and fielding one hundred and first bought a hand

1148
01:02:24.760 --> 01:02:26.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, one hundred of them, I think, and they

1149
01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:28.280
<v Speaker 2>put a bunch out there and I've been testing it,

1150
01:02:28.440 --> 01:02:30.760
<v Speaker 2>so it's still a prototype, you know at the time.

1151
01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:34.159
<v Speaker 2>So it's still getting evolved and changing, and you know,

1152
01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:37.199
<v Speaker 2>the soldiers try it, they like something, they don't like something,

1153
01:02:37.239 --> 01:02:40.039
<v Speaker 2>I give feedback to the company, They make the changes

1154
01:02:40.320 --> 01:02:42.320
<v Speaker 2>and then the soldier gets the new version right. So

1155
01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:45.719
<v Speaker 2>it's like I'm the go between that usually doesn't exist

1156
01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:49.880
<v Speaker 2>between soldiers and the industry because I'm able to get

1157
01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:52.760
<v Speaker 2>those answers and those changes back to them quick. But yeah,

1158
01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:56.320
<v Speaker 2>three D printed drones have become big. That one was

1159
01:02:56.599 --> 01:03:01.079
<v Speaker 2>a big success story. And then you know, i'd say

1160
01:03:01.159 --> 01:03:04.480
<v Speaker 2>with a lot of the units now, a lot of

1161
01:03:04.559 --> 01:03:08.719
<v Speaker 2>them are focused on you know, aerial technology. Drones is

1162
01:03:08.800 --> 01:03:12.800
<v Speaker 2>what they want. And that's you know, the nature of

1163
01:03:13.320 --> 01:03:16.840
<v Speaker 2>current conflicts, that's the nature of technology, you know, evolving,

1164
01:03:18.440 --> 01:03:21.320
<v Speaker 2>and that's just where it is right now. Everybody wants drones.

1165
01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:23.400
<v Speaker 2>Everyone wants every every kind of drone you can think of.

1166
01:03:23.840 --> 01:03:24.559
<v Speaker 2>That's all they want.

1167
01:03:25.880 --> 01:03:28.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we'll talk about that too. I think a little

1168
01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:32.519
<v Speaker 1>bit more in depth. Let's start to get into the book.

1169
01:03:33.199 --> 01:03:36.800
<v Speaker 1>And where did this idea first come to mind? That, Hey,

1170
01:03:37.000 --> 01:03:38.480
<v Speaker 1>I want to write a book about this.

1171
01:03:39.800 --> 01:03:43.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So I'd never like had the vision of I'm

1172
01:03:43.599 --> 01:03:45.880
<v Speaker 2>going to be an author. You know, I've always been

1173
01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:49.920
<v Speaker 2>a prolific reader. I love reading. I've always enjoyed fiction.

1174
01:03:50.480 --> 01:03:52.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'll read the nonfiction, I read the military

1175
01:03:52.880 --> 01:03:55.920
<v Speaker 2>history books, but I love a good fiction book, right.

1176
01:03:55.960 --> 01:03:58.320
<v Speaker 2>I love just getting into a story and just kind

1177
01:03:58.360 --> 01:04:02.119
<v Speaker 2>of jamming with it, losing yourself in it. And I've

1178
01:04:02.119 --> 01:04:04.760
<v Speaker 2>always been a fan of that. I was right close

1179
01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:10.039
<v Speaker 2>to when I was retiring. I was I think I

1180
01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:12.920
<v Speaker 2>was like jotting down some notes or some ideas I had,

1181
01:04:13.559 --> 01:04:16.199
<v Speaker 2>and my wife, you know, it was all credit to her.

1182
01:04:16.360 --> 01:04:19.119
<v Speaker 2>She's like, you should write a book. You should try

1183
01:04:19.159 --> 01:04:20.519
<v Speaker 2>to write a book. And I'm like, I don't know

1184
01:04:20.599 --> 01:04:25.079
<v Speaker 2>anything about writing a book. But I started just you know,

1185
01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:29.320
<v Speaker 2>just typing away and playing around. It was horrible. It

1186
01:04:29.440 --> 01:04:31.760
<v Speaker 2>was really bad. I found one of my original copies

1187
01:04:31.960 --> 01:04:34.559
<v Speaker 2>of the book that I started, like when I was

1188
01:04:34.599 --> 01:04:36.880
<v Speaker 2>getting out of the army, and it was real bad

1189
01:04:36.960 --> 01:04:40.360
<v Speaker 2>to read. But one of the things I didn't talk

1190
01:04:40.360 --> 01:04:43.079
<v Speaker 2>about when I was getting out of the army. I

1191
01:04:43.159 --> 01:04:49.360
<v Speaker 2>did my Skill Badge program with a retired Sergeant Major

1192
01:04:49.519 --> 01:04:53.280
<v Speaker 2>SF Sergeant major named Randall Searles s U r l e. S.

1193
01:04:53.519 --> 01:04:58.679
<v Speaker 2>But he's a editor and author himself, and he basically

1194
01:04:58.840 --> 01:05:01.199
<v Speaker 2>let me do a sk bridge with him, you know,

1195
01:05:01.360 --> 01:05:05.239
<v Speaker 2>remotely online, and he helped me kind of understand how

1196
01:05:05.719 --> 01:05:09.079
<v Speaker 2>the structures of books work, you know, specifically on the

1197
01:05:09.119 --> 01:05:11.480
<v Speaker 2>fiction side, like how do you structure it, what are

1198
01:05:11.559 --> 01:05:15.400
<v Speaker 2>the different acts? You know, how does the character development,

1199
01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:17.840
<v Speaker 2>character arcs, like all these words that I'd never even

1200
01:05:17.880 --> 01:05:20.760
<v Speaker 2>heard of before, and I just thought, you know, good

1201
01:05:20.760 --> 01:05:23.639
<v Speaker 2>books for good books and bad books sucked, but there's

1202
01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:26.079
<v Speaker 2>a whole rhyme or reason why some of them suck

1203
01:05:26.159 --> 01:05:28.960
<v Speaker 2>and why some of them are really good, and you

1204
01:05:29.039 --> 01:05:31.239
<v Speaker 2>can kind of follow along, and there's you know, there's

1205
01:05:31.239 --> 01:05:33.760
<v Speaker 2>some good books out there that literally are written to

1206
01:05:33.880 --> 01:05:37.519
<v Speaker 2>talk about how books are structured. So I worked with

1207
01:05:37.639 --> 01:05:40.239
<v Speaker 2>him for probably two months and you know, got to

1208
01:05:40.320 --> 01:05:44.360
<v Speaker 2>help him do some developmental editing and go through his

1209
01:05:44.519 --> 01:05:48.159
<v Speaker 2>process and really helped me set a foundation for how

1210
01:05:48.280 --> 01:05:51.280
<v Speaker 2>do you write a book? So I, you know, took

1211
01:05:51.360 --> 01:05:54.199
<v Speaker 2>that and then I took the original kind of manuscript

1212
01:05:54.280 --> 01:05:56.920
<v Speaker 2>that I had been playing around with and just started

1213
01:05:57.000 --> 01:05:59.679
<v Speaker 2>over again and took some of the same ideas and

1214
01:05:59.719 --> 01:06:02.719
<v Speaker 2>started going with it. But the basic idea of the

1215
01:06:02.800 --> 01:06:08.800
<v Speaker 2>book was really kind of came to life out of frustration, right.

1216
01:06:08.880 --> 01:06:11.760
<v Speaker 2>So I see, you know, at the last year in

1217
01:06:11.840 --> 01:06:13.719
<v Speaker 2>the army, like I said, I was focused on all

1218
01:06:13.760 --> 01:06:17.199
<v Speaker 2>the creativity, creative thinking, pushing people to get out of

1219
01:06:17.239 --> 01:06:19.599
<v Speaker 2>the box and to think of and look at things differently,

1220
01:06:19.800 --> 01:06:23.000
<v Speaker 2>or I was, you know, real concerned what you're seeing,

1221
01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:27.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, with isis and everyone else is like, if

1222
01:06:27.719 --> 01:06:30.280
<v Speaker 2>we keep thinking that the same old ways of doing

1223
01:06:30.360 --> 01:06:33.159
<v Speaker 2>things are going to work in the next conflict, I

1224
01:06:33.199 --> 01:06:36.960
<v Speaker 2>think we're going to get caught, you know, unfortunately, like

1225
01:06:37.079 --> 01:06:40.159
<v Speaker 2>we tend to do, and you know, militaries across the

1226
01:06:40.199 --> 01:06:42.199
<v Speaker 2>world tend to do is they fight the last war.

1227
01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:45.400
<v Speaker 2>And that's really what you know, frustrated me because I

1228
01:06:45.480 --> 01:06:49.679
<v Speaker 2>was pushing on, you know, in these planning sessions and

1229
01:06:49.719 --> 01:06:51.559
<v Speaker 2>everything else, trying to get people to think a little

1230
01:06:52.079 --> 01:06:54.679
<v Speaker 2>harder about issues and how do we do stuff differently

1231
01:06:54.719 --> 01:06:57.920
<v Speaker 2>than we did last time? And it was just like

1232
01:06:58.119 --> 01:07:02.239
<v Speaker 2>running into a brick wall over and over again. The

1233
01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:06.320
<v Speaker 2>idea got born there, and I started working on, Hey,

1234
01:07:06.559 --> 01:07:08.960
<v Speaker 2>what if I wrote a book about, you know, what

1235
01:07:09.159 --> 01:07:10.760
<v Speaker 2>the next conflict's going to look like?

1236
01:07:11.119 --> 01:07:11.199
<v Speaker 1>Right?

1237
01:07:11.280 --> 01:07:14.760
<v Speaker 2>There's lots of them, lots, but there's books out there

1238
01:07:14.840 --> 01:07:17.559
<v Speaker 2>that are like that, but usually they're like thirty years

1239
01:07:17.599 --> 01:07:20.199
<v Speaker 2>in the future, you know whatever. I'm like, I want

1240
01:07:20.239 --> 01:07:22.639
<v Speaker 2>to know what five years from the future is going

1241
01:07:22.719 --> 01:07:25.239
<v Speaker 2>to look like. Because technology is moving so fast right now,

1242
01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:28.119
<v Speaker 2>how is it going to look in just five years?

1243
01:07:28.599 --> 01:07:32.760
<v Speaker 2>So I started writing it in that kind of context.

1244
01:07:32.840 --> 01:07:36.360
<v Speaker 2>In mind was you know, five years from now. You know,

1245
01:07:36.400 --> 01:07:38.719
<v Speaker 2>I'm writing about an ODA because that's what I know,

1246
01:07:39.400 --> 01:07:41.760
<v Speaker 2>and I want to see them in an environment that

1247
01:07:41.880 --> 01:07:45.079
<v Speaker 2>I know, you know, just doing a jay set, doing

1248
01:07:45.159 --> 01:07:49.320
<v Speaker 2>training over in Jordan, and then you know, all hell

1249
01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:52.280
<v Speaker 2>breaks loose, so the everything that you don't want to

1250
01:07:52.280 --> 01:07:58.360
<v Speaker 2>see happen happens all at once, and new technologies that

1251
01:07:59.559 --> 01:08:03.400
<v Speaker 2>I think are going to be readily available probably within

1252
01:08:03.480 --> 01:08:05.599
<v Speaker 2>the next five years. And you know, it took some

1253
01:08:06.960 --> 01:08:08.960
<v Speaker 2>creative license on some of it because it is a

1254
01:08:09.039 --> 01:08:12.400
<v Speaker 2>fiction book, but I wanted to be able to showcase like, hey,

1255
01:08:12.480 --> 01:08:15.880
<v Speaker 2>this is where it could go pretty quickly, and this

1256
01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:18.520
<v Speaker 2>is where you know, on our side could go. And

1257
01:08:18.800 --> 01:08:23.439
<v Speaker 2>there's you know, an enemy type force could put in,

1258
01:08:23.680 --> 01:08:26.319
<v Speaker 2>and like, here's the different ideas that I had of, Hey,

1259
01:08:26.439 --> 01:08:28.720
<v Speaker 2>this is what I think it might be. And I

1260
01:08:28.800 --> 01:08:30.800
<v Speaker 2>wanted to write that out in a fiction because I

1261
01:08:30.880 --> 01:08:35.680
<v Speaker 2>think fiction does a fantastic job of, you know, bringing

1262
01:08:35.760 --> 01:08:39.840
<v Speaker 2>it to reality and helping readers kind of immerse themselves

1263
01:08:39.880 --> 01:08:41.840
<v Speaker 2>in that world so they can kind of actually see

1264
01:08:41.880 --> 01:08:42.600
<v Speaker 2>what that looks like.

1265
01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:43.119
<v Speaker 1>Right.

1266
01:08:43.720 --> 01:08:46.159
<v Speaker 2>I could write a white paper on the future of

1267
01:08:46.239 --> 01:08:49.960
<v Speaker 2>drone technology and people will read it and they'll be like, yeah,

1268
01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:52.600
<v Speaker 2>that's probably true, but they're not going to like really

1269
01:08:52.760 --> 01:08:53.039
<v Speaker 2>live it.

1270
01:08:53.439 --> 01:08:53.600
<v Speaker 1>You know.

1271
01:08:54.279 --> 01:08:56.039
<v Speaker 2>So if you write it in a fiction book and

1272
01:08:56.119 --> 01:08:58.399
<v Speaker 2>you build characters and you you know, people read it

1273
01:08:58.439 --> 01:09:01.680
<v Speaker 2>and they identify with a character and they feel like, yeah,

1274
01:09:02.079 --> 01:09:03.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, I was never in that situation, but I

1275
01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:06.800
<v Speaker 2>feel what this guy's feeling right now, you know, and

1276
01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:08.800
<v Speaker 2>then all this bad stuff starts happening, and then it

1277
01:09:08.880 --> 01:09:11.600
<v Speaker 2>becomes real, you know, it becomes very real to them,

1278
01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:12.960
<v Speaker 2>And that's what I was aiming for.

1279
01:09:13.600 --> 01:09:15.840
<v Speaker 1>You know. What I really liked about the book was

1280
01:09:15.920 --> 01:09:20.039
<v Speaker 1>that you brought your Special Forces experience into it, and

1281
01:09:20.199 --> 01:09:23.439
<v Speaker 1>you said, the setting of the book is basically Jordan, Syria,

1282
01:09:23.640 --> 01:09:27.319
<v Speaker 1>and Turkey, and it's it's felt it felt very fresh.

1283
01:09:27.439 --> 01:09:29.520
<v Speaker 1>It felt like this was not you know, I read

1284
01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:31.119
<v Speaker 1>a lot of these books, a lot of them, even

1285
01:09:31.159 --> 01:09:34.399
<v Speaker 1>for this podcast. This was different. It was not a

1286
01:09:34.479 --> 01:09:36.880
<v Speaker 1>rehash of all the stuff I had read before. And

1287
01:09:37.039 --> 01:09:39.319
<v Speaker 1>I really liked that about it, and I really liked

1288
01:09:39.359 --> 01:09:43.520
<v Speaker 1>you bringing your own experiences into it. And the protagonist,

1289
01:09:43.600 --> 01:09:47.920
<v Speaker 1>the team sergeant, was an interesting character because you kind

1290
01:09:47.960 --> 01:09:51.760
<v Speaker 1>of capture that person at that time in his life

1291
01:09:51.840 --> 01:09:53.720
<v Speaker 1>that he's been doing this for a while and he's

1292
01:09:53.800 --> 01:09:57.039
<v Speaker 1>kind of jaded, kind of cynical about you know, this

1293
01:09:57.199 --> 01:09:59.920
<v Speaker 1>part of the world and about his job. And also

1294
01:10:00.279 --> 01:10:02.680
<v Speaker 1>there's like this aspect of like he's getting older and

1295
01:10:02.760 --> 01:10:06.119
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't necessarily understand the technology that the younger guys

1296
01:10:06.199 --> 01:10:08.399
<v Speaker 1>on the team take too. Yeah.

1297
01:10:08.880 --> 01:10:12.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that was you know, I took the you know,

1298
01:10:13.039 --> 01:10:16.399
<v Speaker 2>the main team sergeant character, and I based him off

1299
01:10:16.439 --> 01:10:19.439
<v Speaker 2>of you know, other team sergeants. I've known, my own

1300
01:10:19.479 --> 01:10:22.840
<v Speaker 2>team sergeants, other just leaders I've known, and kind of

1301
01:10:22.920 --> 01:10:25.479
<v Speaker 2>morphed them all into one, you know, sprinkle on a

1302
01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:28.760
<v Speaker 2>little my own personality in there, because that's the question

1303
01:10:28.840 --> 01:10:31.439
<v Speaker 2>I get is like, you know, are you the team sergeant,

1304
01:10:31.720 --> 01:10:34.199
<v Speaker 2>are you the weapons sergeant? Like which character are you?

1305
01:10:34.319 --> 01:10:37.439
<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, I'm every single one of them. Unfortunately,

1306
01:10:38.439 --> 01:10:39.880
<v Speaker 2>you get a little piece of everything.

1307
01:10:40.079 --> 01:10:42.319
<v Speaker 1>I love the eighteen Bravo on the team, Like you

1308
01:10:42.479 --> 01:10:46.800
<v Speaker 1>nailed that, like this this meathead yeah with his movie quotes.

1309
01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:50.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I was really so I wanted to because

1310
01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:52.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, I read a lot too, and you see,

1311
01:10:52.720 --> 01:10:55.279
<v Speaker 2>like people go over the top when you're trying to

1312
01:10:55.359 --> 01:10:58.680
<v Speaker 2>do like that, what is the military behind closed doors?

1313
01:10:59.079 --> 01:10:59.239
<v Speaker 1>You know?

1314
01:10:59.359 --> 01:11:02.039
<v Speaker 2>Brotherhood feel like and I feel like sometimes they go

1315
01:11:02.119 --> 01:11:04.159
<v Speaker 2>over the top. You know, I'm not gonna name any names,

1316
01:11:04.239 --> 01:11:07.359
<v Speaker 2>but there's some Navy seals out there like to say

1317
01:11:07.439 --> 01:11:12.439
<v Speaker 2>the word brother a lot. So so I wanted to

1318
01:11:12.479 --> 01:11:14.199
<v Speaker 2>make it like, this is what it was like on

1319
01:11:14.319 --> 01:11:17.079
<v Speaker 2>a team, Like this is the mentality. You know, it's

1320
01:11:17.279 --> 01:11:19.560
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of dudes that will die for each other.

1321
01:11:20.159 --> 01:11:23.600
<v Speaker 2>But man, they're never gonna stop fighting. They're never gonna

1322
01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:26.920
<v Speaker 2>stop picking at each other. Uh. And it's just you know,

1323
01:11:27.119 --> 01:11:30.399
<v Speaker 2>the you know, if if the Walls had ears sort

1324
01:11:30.439 --> 01:11:32.640
<v Speaker 2>of situations, some of the team room chats that you'll

1325
01:11:32.680 --> 01:11:35.840
<v Speaker 2>never talk about are probably some of the funniest moments

1326
01:11:35.880 --> 01:11:38.000
<v Speaker 2>you've ever been in, you know, in your life.

1327
01:11:38.199 --> 01:11:42.039
<v Speaker 1>So one of my, uh, one of my favorite quotes

1328
01:11:42.039 --> 01:11:44.760
<v Speaker 1>about that was from Jim Morris, who he was a

1329
01:11:44.840 --> 01:11:49.720
<v Speaker 1>fifth group team leader o D eight leader in Vietnam.

1330
01:11:50.159 --> 01:11:51.880
<v Speaker 1>I don't think they even called them odias. I think

1331
01:11:51.880 --> 01:11:55.680
<v Speaker 1>they call them eight teams. It's in Vietnam. And he said,

1332
01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:59.319
<v Speaker 1>being a team leader on a Special Force, it's a team.

1333
01:11:59.840 --> 01:12:02.840
<v Speaker 1>It's uh, you know, it's basically trying to learn how

1334
01:12:02.920 --> 01:12:04.520
<v Speaker 1>to manage eleven prima donnas.

1335
01:12:06.159 --> 01:12:09.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that's it. The egos I don't remember if

1336
01:12:09.279 --> 01:12:12.039
<v Speaker 2>i'd so I'm winning writing book two right now, so

1337
01:12:12.279 --> 01:12:13.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm blending them together, and I don't want to let

1338
01:12:13.920 --> 01:12:16.000
<v Speaker 2>anything out, but I do talk about it at some

1339
01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:19.640
<v Speaker 2>point of like, how do you manage you know, twelve,

1340
01:12:19.960 --> 01:12:23.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, eleven personalities minus yourself? You probably include yourself

1341
01:12:23.319 --> 01:12:26.079
<v Speaker 2>in that too, but like you're managing all these different

1342
01:12:26.119 --> 01:12:32.039
<v Speaker 2>personalities and man and SF types special operations types for sure,

1343
01:12:32.439 --> 01:12:35.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, you get a mixed bag of you know,

1344
01:12:35.560 --> 01:12:38.399
<v Speaker 2>who thinks they're you know, God's gift to the special

1345
01:12:38.439 --> 01:12:41.760
<v Speaker 2>Operations mantra and who's this here to work and who's

1346
01:12:41.880 --> 01:12:44.359
<v Speaker 2>you know in between, So you get a little bit

1347
01:12:44.359 --> 01:12:47.039
<v Speaker 2>of everything, you know, good batter and different. And I

1348
01:12:47.159 --> 01:12:50.920
<v Speaker 2>try to kind of show that mentality in the book,

1349
01:12:51.119 --> 01:12:53.039
<v Speaker 2>so hopefully it sits well.

1350
01:12:53.439 --> 01:12:55.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know, I thought it was great that you know,

1351
01:12:56.000 --> 01:12:59.279
<v Speaker 1>you captured that team sergeant experience and like made it

1352
01:12:59.399 --> 01:13:02.840
<v Speaker 1>clear that, yeah, exactly, he's trying to manage these different personalities,

1353
01:13:03.079 --> 01:13:05.359
<v Speaker 1>including its captain. You know, he has to kind of

1354
01:13:05.800 --> 01:13:08.520
<v Speaker 1>keep him going too, and you know, help him do

1355
01:13:08.680 --> 01:13:12.119
<v Speaker 1>his job, but also you know be like okay, sir

1356
01:13:12.159 --> 01:13:12.720
<v Speaker 1>of relax.

1357
01:13:13.600 --> 01:13:17.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so he's based off of

1358
01:13:18.600 --> 01:13:20.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, a lot of different officers I've known. You know,

1359
01:13:20.720 --> 01:13:22.680
<v Speaker 2>I've worked with some great officers. I've worked with some

1360
01:13:23.039 --> 01:13:26.359
<v Speaker 2>poor officers. Same on the NCO side. You know, you

1361
01:13:26.479 --> 01:13:29.319
<v Speaker 2>got good and bad and you know, oh D eight

1362
01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:33.520
<v Speaker 2>Captains I think have one of the most difficult jobs

1363
01:13:33.520 --> 01:13:37.079
<v Speaker 2>as an officer because they're usually the least experienced guy

1364
01:13:38.560 --> 01:13:41.960
<v Speaker 2>and they have to still be in charge because they're

1365
01:13:42.159 --> 01:13:45.399
<v Speaker 2>the captain. You know, they have to maintain that level

1366
01:13:45.439 --> 01:13:49.680
<v Speaker 2>of respect while learning and understanding and being a part

1367
01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:52.680
<v Speaker 2>of a team. So it's it's hard for you know,

1368
01:13:52.840 --> 01:13:57.039
<v Speaker 2>officers and special forces world for sure. You know, my

1369
01:13:57.119 --> 01:13:59.000
<v Speaker 2>hat's off to the good ones. You know, I've had

1370
01:13:59.039 --> 01:14:02.000
<v Speaker 2>some great ones out there. But trying to show that

1371
01:14:02.920 --> 01:14:06.520
<v Speaker 2>the captain's in charge while still listening to the team

1372
01:14:06.560 --> 01:14:08.880
<v Speaker 2>sergeant's advice and having to deal with the knuckleheads on

1373
01:14:08.920 --> 01:14:10.840
<v Speaker 2>the team who think, you know, they're in charge most

1374
01:14:10.840 --> 01:14:13.640
<v Speaker 2>of the time. But trying to put that dynamic, that

1375
01:14:13.760 --> 01:14:19.479
<v Speaker 2>family dynamic together was fun on paper, but yeah, difficult

1376
01:14:19.520 --> 01:14:20.039
<v Speaker 2>in real life.

1377
01:14:21.520 --> 01:14:25.000
<v Speaker 1>And so the I don't know how deep you want

1378
01:14:25.039 --> 01:14:27.039
<v Speaker 1>to get into the plot of the of the book,

1379
01:14:27.159 --> 01:14:29.479
<v Speaker 1>but I mean the main action of it, I guess

1380
01:14:30.880 --> 01:14:34.439
<v Speaker 1>it has a lot to do with Turkey's regional ambitions,

1381
01:14:34.960 --> 01:14:39.319
<v Speaker 1>sort of neo Ottoman mentality that they've gotten into. Do

1382
01:14:39.359 --> 01:14:40.479
<v Speaker 1>you want to talk what do you want to say

1383
01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:41.880
<v Speaker 1>about what's going on in this book?

1384
01:14:43.000 --> 01:14:45.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? So kind of the basic premise is you got

1385
01:14:45.800 --> 01:14:50.159
<v Speaker 2>no DA doing a training mission in Jordan. They have

1386
01:14:50.319 --> 01:14:54.720
<v Speaker 2>a you know, short lived but exciting encounter with an

1387
01:14:54.800 --> 01:15:01.119
<v Speaker 2>unknown drone that kind of crashes around their area. Then

1388
01:15:01.840 --> 01:15:05.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, regionally, you start to see things heating up

1389
01:15:05.119 --> 01:15:09.840
<v Speaker 2>in the north Turkey is you know posturing and staging

1390
01:15:10.079 --> 01:15:13.680
<v Speaker 2>and on northern Syria and on their border, and then

1391
01:15:13.720 --> 01:15:18.000
<v Speaker 2>you have a flashpoint and you have you know, without

1392
01:15:18.079 --> 01:15:20.880
<v Speaker 2>going into too much detail, you have you know, Turkey

1393
01:15:21.479 --> 01:15:27.479
<v Speaker 2>invasion of Syria with some you know, pretty futuristic technologies

1394
01:15:27.600 --> 01:15:32.800
<v Speaker 2>that no one expected. And you know, when I've made

1395
01:15:33.159 --> 01:15:37.479
<v Speaker 2>those technologies, some of that stuff is already around, right,

1396
01:15:37.600 --> 01:15:41.359
<v Speaker 2>So you know, using a large drone now just throw

1397
01:15:41.479 --> 01:15:43.439
<v Speaker 2>these teasers out there to mess with people until they

1398
01:15:43.439 --> 01:15:45.840
<v Speaker 2>buy the book. But you know, using a large drone

1399
01:15:45.960 --> 01:15:49.520
<v Speaker 2>as a signal relay or a mother ship, you know,

1400
01:15:49.600 --> 01:15:53.600
<v Speaker 2>that's happening in Ukraine right now. Right Obviously I take

1401
01:15:53.680 --> 01:15:56.560
<v Speaker 2>some license with it, and what I think is actually

1402
01:15:56.680 --> 01:15:59.560
<v Speaker 2>going to be where it could go, where you have

1403
01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:06.199
<v Speaker 2>these larger drones and you know, automation or artificially intelligent

1404
01:16:06.359 --> 01:16:10.479
<v Speaker 2>systems or whatever that are controlling smaller drones on mission sets.

1405
01:16:11.680 --> 01:16:14.000
<v Speaker 2>I do think that's where it could end up, where

1406
01:16:14.039 --> 01:16:17.880
<v Speaker 2>you have you know, not necessarily like completely autonomous, but

1407
01:16:18.720 --> 01:16:20.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, if your parameters are so big on the

1408
01:16:20.960 --> 01:16:23.720
<v Speaker 2>left and right limits of what their mission is and

1409
01:16:23.840 --> 01:16:27.720
<v Speaker 2>they're operating within them, you know, are they still autonomous

1410
01:16:28.720 --> 01:16:31.079
<v Speaker 2>or are they autonomous or are they still in control

1411
01:16:31.800 --> 01:16:33.680
<v Speaker 2>of you know, the guy who wrote the software in

1412
01:16:33.720 --> 01:16:36.000
<v Speaker 2>the first place. So that's a question that you know,

1413
01:16:36.159 --> 01:16:38.319
<v Speaker 2>see comes up in the book a few times and

1414
01:16:38.720 --> 01:16:41.560
<v Speaker 2>really trying to get trying to explore that kind of

1415
01:16:41.640 --> 01:16:46.600
<v Speaker 2>concept of when does you know, actual artificial intelligence or

1416
01:16:46.640 --> 01:16:51.960
<v Speaker 2>autonomous systems become that autonomous if you're giving them such

1417
01:16:51.960 --> 01:16:54.199
<v Speaker 2>a big parameter to operate in in the first place.

1418
01:16:54.319 --> 01:16:55.520
<v Speaker 1>You know, So.

1419
01:16:57.000 --> 01:16:59.000
<v Speaker 2>It's a tough question. I don't know. I've heard lots

1420
01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:00.680
<v Speaker 2>of different people talk about it, but I don't think

1421
01:17:00.680 --> 01:17:02.079
<v Speaker 2>anybody's got the real answer yet.

1422
01:17:02.800 --> 01:17:05.600
<v Speaker 1>I think, uh, I think this book also sort of

1423
01:17:05.680 --> 01:17:08.760
<v Speaker 1>alludes to this idea that you know, when we think

1424
01:17:08.840 --> 01:17:13.560
<v Speaker 1>of these like high tech, high end defense items, we think,

1425
01:17:13.960 --> 01:17:15.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, we're going to be the ones that feel

1426
01:17:15.840 --> 01:17:19.159
<v Speaker 1>that or maybe you know, the Chinese, maybe the Russians.

1427
01:17:20.680 --> 01:17:24.000
<v Speaker 1>But your book is really pointing towards, you know, the

1428
01:17:24.560 --> 01:17:28.800
<v Speaker 1>multipolarity that we're moving into in the world. And I mean,

1429
01:17:28.880 --> 01:17:32.359
<v Speaker 1>Turkey isn't like an irrelevant, you know, small country, They're

1430
01:17:32.439 --> 01:17:38.399
<v Speaker 1>a regional player. But I mean, I think that that

1431
01:17:38.560 --> 01:17:40.520
<v Speaker 1>was one of the interesting things about your book is

1432
01:17:40.560 --> 01:17:43.079
<v Speaker 1>it points to one of these other countries really getting

1433
01:17:43.079 --> 01:17:45.359
<v Speaker 1>the drop on us in a way that we wouldn't

1434
01:17:45.359 --> 01:17:46.000
<v Speaker 1>have expected.

1435
01:17:47.920 --> 01:17:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I kind of chose that, you know, intentionally.

1436
01:17:51.840 --> 01:17:54.359
<v Speaker 2>That's because I wanted to write in that region. Right,

1437
01:17:54.439 --> 01:17:58.680
<v Speaker 2>So I'm being that I don't say exactly like what

1438
01:17:58.880 --> 01:18:02.840
<v Speaker 2>year this is supposed to be. I allude to, you know,

1439
01:18:02.880 --> 01:18:06.720
<v Speaker 2>a couple of geopolitical comments in there that make you

1440
01:18:06.840 --> 01:18:11.119
<v Speaker 2>think it's you know, five or ten years in the future. Well,

1441
01:18:11.159 --> 01:18:14.880
<v Speaker 2>I you know, I mentioned briefly the Russian Ukraine conflict

1442
01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:19.039
<v Speaker 2>in there. In a conclusion to that I talk I

1443
01:18:19.079 --> 01:18:21.439
<v Speaker 2>think I talked briefly about China and there that's going

1444
01:18:21.479 --> 01:18:25.159
<v Speaker 2>to come more in book two. But I wanted to show,

1445
01:18:25.960 --> 01:18:30.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, the ability for you know, a country like

1446
01:18:30.680 --> 01:18:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Turkey is not a small country. It is a powerhouse

1447
01:18:33.920 --> 01:18:36.119
<v Speaker 2>in the region, and they're doing some pretty advanced stuff

1448
01:18:36.239 --> 01:18:41.720
<v Speaker 2>with you know, unmanned technologies. You know, aside from Israel,

1449
01:18:42.000 --> 01:18:44.199
<v Speaker 2>I would put Turkey at you know, the number two

1450
01:18:44.239 --> 01:18:49.079
<v Speaker 2>spot right behind them for technology and unmanned systems capabilities.

1451
01:18:49.840 --> 01:18:54.720
<v Speaker 2>So picking you know, a out of left field, you know,

1452
01:18:54.920 --> 01:18:58.399
<v Speaker 2>NATO partner essentially, because now it adds a whole nother

1453
01:18:58.800 --> 01:19:01.680
<v Speaker 2>layer of you know, what would the US do? What

1454
01:19:01.760 --> 01:19:06.439
<v Speaker 2>would our response be if you know, a NATO ally

1455
01:19:07.079 --> 01:19:11.840
<v Speaker 2>invades Syria, you know, are we going to intervene or

1456
01:19:11.840 --> 01:19:13.079
<v Speaker 2>are we going to stop? Are we going to let

1457
01:19:13.079 --> 01:19:14.760
<v Speaker 2>it go? How far do we let it go? You know,

1458
01:19:14.840 --> 01:19:17.880
<v Speaker 2>how much would we let them take, you know, as

1459
01:19:17.920 --> 01:19:20.960
<v Speaker 2>a world order kind of maintainer before we step in.

1460
01:19:21.760 --> 01:19:23.800
<v Speaker 2>And obviously some more stuff happens in the in the

1461
01:19:23.880 --> 01:19:26.199
<v Speaker 2>book that I don't want to let out too much,

1462
01:19:26.279 --> 01:19:30.520
<v Speaker 2>but you know, there's complications that that would arise when

1463
01:19:30.560 --> 01:19:33.479
<v Speaker 2>that happens and there's US forces scattered around the region,

1464
01:19:33.800 --> 01:19:35.560
<v Speaker 2>like you know, what does that what does that look like?

1465
01:19:35.880 --> 01:19:37.920
<v Speaker 2>What does it look like? Worst case scenario? And That's

1466
01:19:37.960 --> 01:19:41.239
<v Speaker 2>what I was really trying to show how precarious our

1467
01:19:41.319 --> 01:19:44.039
<v Speaker 2>position could be if something like this were to happen.

1468
01:19:45.399 --> 01:19:49.000
<v Speaker 1>I think that I believe we talked to Anthony Vincey

1469
01:19:49.159 --> 01:19:53.039
<v Speaker 1>about this recently about sort of how you know that

1470
01:19:53.119 --> 01:19:57.000
<v Speaker 1>the information you're being told as a soldier is authentic,

1471
01:19:57.640 --> 01:19:59.880
<v Speaker 1>it's coming from you know, it's a lawful order from

1472
01:20:00.039 --> 01:20:02.720
<v Speaker 1>your commander there, and it does play into your book.

1473
01:20:02.760 --> 01:20:05.119
<v Speaker 1>I mean there's a pretty big rug pull on the

1474
01:20:05.199 --> 01:20:08.359
<v Speaker 1>protagonists at one point. What do you think about that

1475
01:20:08.439 --> 01:20:11.439
<v Speaker 1>sort of like information assuredness. I'm not sure what the

1476
01:20:11.520 --> 01:20:14.159
<v Speaker 1>correct doctrinal term is, but that you know that you

1477
01:20:14.279 --> 01:20:16.560
<v Speaker 1>know that what you're being told is in fact legitimate.

1478
01:20:17.960 --> 01:20:20.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I think that is. You know, I played

1479
01:20:20.800 --> 01:20:25.000
<v Speaker 2>around with that obviously in the book of you Know

1480
01:20:25.680 --> 01:20:31.119
<v Speaker 2>Who's Who kind of conflict that the characters and the

1481
01:20:31.159 --> 01:20:35.439
<v Speaker 2>protagonists has to go through of you know, trusting sources

1482
01:20:35.640 --> 01:20:39.560
<v Speaker 2>and talking with you know, different levels of leadership, and

1483
01:20:40.079 --> 01:20:44.239
<v Speaker 2>I think you know the ability that's coming, and I

1484
01:20:44.319 --> 01:20:45.680
<v Speaker 2>think a lot of it's already here. I mean, you

1485
01:20:45.720 --> 01:20:49.640
<v Speaker 2>could look just scrolling through my phone before we started

1486
01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:52.199
<v Speaker 2>on Instagram, I'm like, I don't know half of these

1487
01:20:52.279 --> 01:20:54.640
<v Speaker 2>videos are real, you know which ones are fake, which

1488
01:20:54.640 --> 01:20:57.319
<v Speaker 2>ones are real. So they're only going to get better,

1489
01:20:57.960 --> 01:20:59.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, and the systems are only going to get

1490
01:20:59.479 --> 01:21:02.359
<v Speaker 2>more in vain. Maybe they'll hit a wall at some point,

1491
01:21:02.960 --> 01:21:05.319
<v Speaker 2>but you know what happens if they don't. What happens

1492
01:21:05.319 --> 01:21:08.880
<v Speaker 2>if they don't hit a stopping point and they get

1493
01:21:08.960 --> 01:21:13.079
<v Speaker 2>so advanced that you can't tell the difference anymore, Like,

1494
01:21:13.199 --> 01:21:15.800
<v Speaker 2>how would I know right now? Or how would you

1495
01:21:15.960 --> 01:21:18.840
<v Speaker 2>know that we're actually you know, you're actually talking to

1496
01:21:18.920 --> 01:21:24.399
<v Speaker 2>a person right we're digital images on the screen. And

1497
01:21:24.520 --> 01:21:27.239
<v Speaker 2>that's kind of what I try to, like, you know,

1498
01:21:27.600 --> 01:21:30.680
<v Speaker 2>get into a little bit into the book, and you know,

1499
01:21:30.760 --> 01:21:33.119
<v Speaker 2>I want people to start thinking about that is the

1500
01:21:33.279 --> 01:21:37.720
<v Speaker 2>dangers of you know, how far this could go without

1501
01:21:37.760 --> 01:21:40.359
<v Speaker 2>any handrails. You know, I'm not going to get into

1502
01:21:40.399 --> 01:21:42.520
<v Speaker 2>the argument of whether or not we should put limits,

1503
01:21:42.880 --> 01:21:45.479
<v Speaker 2>you know, on you know, is it First Amendment rights

1504
01:21:45.520 --> 01:21:47.119
<v Speaker 2>at that point or like whatever it is. I'm not

1505
01:21:47.159 --> 01:21:49.720
<v Speaker 2>getting into that, But you know, how do you how

1506
01:21:49.760 --> 01:21:51.840
<v Speaker 2>can you tell what's real and what's not on the

1507
01:21:51.920 --> 01:21:54.359
<v Speaker 2>Internet now and what's that going to look like in

1508
01:21:54.399 --> 01:21:58.159
<v Speaker 2>ten years from now? Like how does that play into

1509
01:21:59.560 --> 01:22:04.239
<v Speaker 2>the evil of just everyday life much less you know,

1510
01:22:04.439 --> 01:22:06.399
<v Speaker 2>deployed soldiers in a combat zone.

1511
01:22:07.920 --> 01:22:11.600
<v Speaker 1>You mentioned earlier, how like right now everything is about drones,

1512
01:22:11.800 --> 01:22:14.119
<v Speaker 1>and I sense there's a little bit of like a

1513
01:22:14.760 --> 01:22:17.840
<v Speaker 1>techno skepticism within you that I'd like to probe the

1514
01:22:17.920 --> 01:22:21.119
<v Speaker 1>wire a bit on. Everyone thinks that the future of

1515
01:22:21.199 --> 01:22:23.640
<v Speaker 1>war right now is quad copter drones because of what

1516
01:22:23.720 --> 01:22:25.960
<v Speaker 1>they're seeing in Ukraine. But I mean, if we go

1517
01:22:26.039 --> 01:22:30.880
<v Speaker 1>to war with China tomorrow, theoretically quad copter drones are

1518
01:22:30.920 --> 01:22:34.239
<v Speaker 1>going to be completely irrelevant for that flight. Yeah.

1519
01:22:34.600 --> 01:22:36.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that you hit that one, you're gonna get me.

1520
01:22:37.039 --> 01:22:38.960
<v Speaker 2>I might as well pull out my soapbox real quick

1521
01:22:38.960 --> 01:22:43.119
<v Speaker 2>and get standing up. But you know, like I said,

1522
01:22:43.199 --> 01:22:46.199
<v Speaker 2>with my current job, doing these innovation stuff I have,

1523
01:22:47.359 --> 01:22:50.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, soldiers come in from all kinds of units,

1524
01:22:50.680 --> 01:22:53.000
<v Speaker 2>or they email me, or they heard about the work

1525
01:22:53.039 --> 01:22:55.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing. They reach out and they're like, I want

1526
01:22:56.000 --> 01:22:59.359
<v Speaker 2>an fpv drone that can carry or drop a grenade,

1527
01:23:00.159 --> 01:23:02.920
<v Speaker 2>or I want an fpv drone that can have a

1528
01:23:03.840 --> 01:23:06.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, a shape charge or like an RPG on

1529
01:23:06.159 --> 01:23:09.399
<v Speaker 2>it or something. And my response always to them is,

1530
01:23:09.720 --> 01:23:12.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, why what are you going to do with that?

1531
01:23:13.319 --> 01:23:15.439
<v Speaker 2>And they're like, well, I saw this video. That's how

1532
01:23:15.479 --> 01:23:18.079
<v Speaker 2>they usually start, and I'm like, all right, let's talk

1533
01:23:18.119 --> 01:23:22.199
<v Speaker 2>about the video real quick, because you know, what's happening

1534
01:23:22.239 --> 01:23:25.640
<v Speaker 2>in Russian and Ukraine is shaping everyone's vision of where

1535
01:23:26.560 --> 01:23:29.359
<v Speaker 2>or what drones and combat are going to look like, right,

1536
01:23:29.760 --> 01:23:32.359
<v Speaker 2>and it should right that what the Ukrainians have been

1537
01:23:32.399 --> 01:23:36.560
<v Speaker 2>able to do against the Russians is you know, was shocking.

1538
01:23:37.199 --> 01:23:39.720
<v Speaker 2>I when I heard about the Russian stage and on

1539
01:23:39.760 --> 01:23:42.079
<v Speaker 2>the border, I was, you know, I was all in

1540
01:23:42.279 --> 01:23:44.840
<v Speaker 2>on man, They're going to roll up the Ukrainians in

1541
01:23:44.920 --> 01:23:47.199
<v Speaker 2>a week, you know, a month. Maybe I did not

1542
01:23:47.359 --> 01:23:48.920
<v Speaker 2>think that this was going to be the future of

1543
01:23:48.960 --> 01:23:52.920
<v Speaker 2>where it was going. Probably shouldn't put that bad you

1544
01:23:53.000 --> 01:23:54.880
<v Speaker 2>know guests out there, since I wrote a book about

1545
01:23:54.880 --> 01:23:57.239
<v Speaker 2>the future of war. But that's what, you know, I

1546
01:23:57.319 --> 01:23:59.159
<v Speaker 2>thought they were done for it. You know, the Ukrainians

1547
01:23:59.159 --> 01:24:04.039
<v Speaker 2>have done amazing thing with that technology. However, the doctrine

1548
01:24:04.640 --> 01:24:09.800
<v Speaker 2>that Russia uses and the doctrine that Ukraine uses is

1549
01:24:10.079 --> 01:24:13.520
<v Speaker 2>completely different than a doctrine that the United States would

1550
01:24:13.600 --> 01:24:17.159
<v Speaker 2>use in a military conflict. You know, we don't have

1551
01:24:17.520 --> 01:24:22.159
<v Speaker 2>a you know, battle drill for digging and then placing

1552
01:24:22.279 --> 01:24:25.960
<v Speaker 2>trench works as infantry soldiers like, we don't do that.

1553
01:24:26.079 --> 01:24:30.439
<v Speaker 2>We don't fight defensively. We're a maneuver, you know, army.

1554
01:24:30.880 --> 01:24:34.560
<v Speaker 2>We're a combined arms, large scale maneuver. We overwhelm the

1555
01:24:34.640 --> 01:24:36.479
<v Speaker 2>airspace and then we move in through the ground and

1556
01:24:36.560 --> 01:24:40.279
<v Speaker 2>take everything out. That's how we've done it since, you know,

1557
01:24:40.439 --> 01:24:43.920
<v Speaker 2>the Gulf War, since before it's you know, shaped off

1558
01:24:43.960 --> 01:24:48.319
<v Speaker 2>the blitzkrieg like that is how we do our military maneuvers.

1559
01:24:49.199 --> 01:24:50.960
<v Speaker 2>The war in Ukraine right now, when you watch a

1560
01:24:51.000 --> 01:24:53.880
<v Speaker 2>lot of these you know YouTube videos, one, you got

1561
01:24:54.000 --> 01:24:56.239
<v Speaker 2>to be you know, cautious of the propaganda value that

1562
01:24:56.319 --> 01:24:59.920
<v Speaker 2>you're being fed, right, because that's a big part of it. Again,

1563
01:25:00.279 --> 01:25:02.399
<v Speaker 2>I'm not taking anything away from what the Ukrainians are doing.

1564
01:25:02.439 --> 01:25:05.000
<v Speaker 2>It's amazing that they're you know, I think the invasions

1565
01:25:05.399 --> 01:25:07.199
<v Speaker 2>jacked up, and I think the Ukrainians are doing a

1566
01:25:07.239 --> 01:25:10.560
<v Speaker 2>hell of the job. But when you watch these videos,

1567
01:25:10.600 --> 01:25:14.359
<v Speaker 2>you have a single drone flying along or two drones usually,

1568
01:25:15.039 --> 01:25:18.640
<v Speaker 2>and it's a small group of Russians or Ukrainians where

1569
01:25:18.640 --> 01:25:20.439
<v Speaker 2>it's like one guy hiding in a hole, or you

1570
01:25:20.560 --> 01:25:24.640
<v Speaker 2>see like a single vehicle driving down the road, and

1571
01:25:25.000 --> 01:25:26.720
<v Speaker 2>if you stop and like zoom out and you think

1572
01:25:26.760 --> 01:25:29.000
<v Speaker 2>about what you're looking at. What you're seeing is like

1573
01:25:29.279 --> 01:25:33.399
<v Speaker 2>harassing attacks, right. They're harassing to in order to keep

1574
01:25:34.039 --> 01:25:37.279
<v Speaker 2>the Russians from massing any kind of force anywhere near

1575
01:25:37.359 --> 01:25:42.039
<v Speaker 2>the border, in order to stop them from advancing. Right,

1576
01:25:42.079 --> 01:25:44.399
<v Speaker 2>And the Russians are still advancing right now, They're still

1577
01:25:44.600 --> 01:25:47.920
<v Speaker 2>steadily advancing. It's slow going. They're losing, you know, a

1578
01:25:48.000 --> 01:25:51.800
<v Speaker 2>crazy amount of casualties. I think the twenty twenty five

1579
01:25:51.960 --> 01:25:57.520
<v Speaker 2>CSIS report was like a million Russian total casualties and

1580
01:25:57.640 --> 01:26:00.680
<v Speaker 2>like three hundred killed, like seven hundred wounded. It's crazy,

1581
01:26:01.239 --> 01:26:04.960
<v Speaker 2>it's absolutely bonkers. But you know, the United States, if

1582
01:26:04.960 --> 01:26:07.720
<v Speaker 2>we were to go in and help Ukraine tomorrow, we

1583
01:26:07.800 --> 01:26:11.000
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't just go take and plus up their positions along

1584
01:26:11.079 --> 01:26:13.880
<v Speaker 2>the front. Like, that's not how we do it. So

1585
01:26:13.960 --> 01:26:15.560
<v Speaker 2>when these guys come in they say, hey, I want

1586
01:26:15.600 --> 01:26:17.960
<v Speaker 2>this drone that does this because I saw this video.

1587
01:26:18.479 --> 01:26:20.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, all right, if you have that drone and

1588
01:26:20.880 --> 01:26:24.760
<v Speaker 2>you're an infantry platoon leader, right and you're moving and

1589
01:26:24.880 --> 01:26:27.880
<v Speaker 2>you get contact to your front, tell me how that

1590
01:26:28.159 --> 01:26:30.279
<v Speaker 2>you're going to integrate that drone into your battle drill

1591
01:26:30.439 --> 01:26:33.680
<v Speaker 2>without slowing it down like without stopping what you're doing.

1592
01:26:34.000 --> 01:26:37.560
<v Speaker 2>Like the drones in Ukraine have only become you know,

1593
01:26:38.720 --> 01:26:41.119
<v Speaker 2>the top of the like the kill chain in the

1594
01:26:41.239 --> 01:26:44.119
<v Speaker 2>last like two years because they ran out of artillery sales,

1595
01:26:44.439 --> 01:26:46.279
<v Speaker 2>right That's why they're using them right now. If they

1596
01:26:46.279 --> 01:26:49.560
<v Speaker 2>had artillery, they'd probably prefer that, but they don't. They're out.

1597
01:26:49.600 --> 01:26:53.119
<v Speaker 2>I get it. So I do think drones are going

1598
01:26:53.199 --> 01:26:57.159
<v Speaker 2>to be you know, the future of conflict. I don't

1599
01:26:57.239 --> 01:26:59.199
<v Speaker 2>know what it's going to look like yet. And like

1600
01:26:59.399 --> 01:27:02.359
<v Speaker 2>to your point, if we were to go fight China

1601
01:27:02.560 --> 01:27:06.439
<v Speaker 2>in the Pacific, you know, where the FPV drones don't

1602
01:27:06.479 --> 01:27:08.600
<v Speaker 2>have the range to do a whole lot of damage.

1603
01:27:09.560 --> 01:27:13.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, I worry more about like fpvs and the

1604
01:27:14.159 --> 01:27:20.119
<v Speaker 2>small scale drones for insurgencies. And you know, imagine if

1605
01:27:20.439 --> 01:27:23.239
<v Speaker 2>the drone technology now was out in two thousand and

1606
01:27:23.279 --> 01:27:25.800
<v Speaker 2>seven in Iraq, you know, that would have been tough

1607
01:27:25.840 --> 01:27:30.800
<v Speaker 2>to counter. I worry about the drones, and you know,

1608
01:27:31.000 --> 01:27:36.159
<v Speaker 2>like the Ukrainian operation what was it called Spiderweb when

1609
01:27:36.199 --> 01:27:40.079
<v Speaker 2>they put those you know, snuck all those drones way

1610
01:27:40.359 --> 01:27:43.840
<v Speaker 2>way deep into Russia and then remotely launched them at targets.

1611
01:27:44.520 --> 01:27:47.319
<v Speaker 2>Like I worry more about that stuff for fpvs and

1612
01:27:47.399 --> 01:27:52.319
<v Speaker 2>their implications for it unless you know something scenario like

1613
01:27:52.399 --> 01:27:54.439
<v Speaker 2>the book and that technology comes to that. Because I

1614
01:27:54.520 --> 01:27:57.680
<v Speaker 2>haven't talked in the book. I don't talk about battery

1615
01:27:57.760 --> 01:28:01.680
<v Speaker 2>capability because that's a tough you know, batteries are tough,

1616
01:28:01.840 --> 01:28:04.640
<v Speaker 2>battery life is tough. So I do have Book two

1617
01:28:04.720 --> 01:28:06.000
<v Speaker 2>is going to get into the batteries, but I don't

1618
01:28:06.000 --> 01:28:09.199
<v Speaker 2>want to ruin that. But so like, I think what

1619
01:28:09.520 --> 01:28:13.359
<v Speaker 2>we think it's going to be is probably incorrect. I

1620
01:28:13.399 --> 01:28:15.600
<v Speaker 2>think it's going to be different and something that we're

1621
01:28:15.680 --> 01:28:18.520
<v Speaker 2>not you know, really sure of yet. And that's what

1622
01:28:18.800 --> 01:28:20.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, that's a good thing about soldiers wanting to

1623
01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:23.239
<v Speaker 2>test and play with them, because that's how you get

1624
01:28:23.279 --> 01:28:25.560
<v Speaker 2>creative and you come up with what that next solution

1625
01:28:25.680 --> 01:28:28.159
<v Speaker 2>looks like. But I just you know, people that just

1626
01:28:28.239 --> 01:28:31.920
<v Speaker 2>rely on YouTube for their tactical acumen is usually incorrect.

1627
01:28:32.640 --> 01:28:35.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think to your point about how the American

1628
01:28:35.760 --> 01:28:38.920
<v Speaker 1>military fights is like sometimes we forget that, you know,

1629
01:28:39.039 --> 01:28:43.199
<v Speaker 1>the Kurds in northern Syria or the Ukrainians in their

1630
01:28:43.239 --> 01:28:48.560
<v Speaker 1>own country, they're fighting with what they have and so

1631
01:28:48.640 --> 01:28:50.960
<v Speaker 1>they're relying. The Ukrainians are relying a lot on these

1632
01:28:51.039 --> 01:28:54.520
<v Speaker 1>drones because that's what they have access to. And if

1633
01:28:54.560 --> 01:28:57.520
<v Speaker 1>the United States went to war, we bring all of

1634
01:28:57.600 --> 01:29:01.880
<v Speaker 1>our military hardware with us. If the Ukrainians had all

1635
01:29:01.920 --> 01:29:05.479
<v Speaker 1>of our fighter capabilities, on bomber capabilities and all this

1636
01:29:05.600 --> 01:29:07.880
<v Speaker 1>other stuff that we bring to the table, they would

1637
01:29:07.880 --> 01:29:08.880
<v Speaker 1>be using that instead.

1638
01:29:09.600 --> 01:29:12.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, they would. And that's to my point is

1639
01:29:12.439 --> 01:29:15.760
<v Speaker 2>like I think for the large scale military application, the

1640
01:29:16.359 --> 01:29:20.239
<v Speaker 2>FPV is going to be very limited. I think special

1641
01:29:20.279 --> 01:29:23.239
<v Speaker 2>operations side we need to be really focused on it

1642
01:29:23.840 --> 01:29:28.119
<v Speaker 2>because we can be you know, using partner forces. Yeah,

1643
01:29:28.239 --> 01:29:32.640
<v Speaker 2>partner forces, you know, to devastating effect, and we really

1644
01:29:32.720 --> 01:29:32.960
<v Speaker 2>need to.

1645
01:29:32.960 --> 01:29:33.680
<v Speaker 1>Know how to counter it.

1646
01:29:34.199 --> 01:29:36.920
<v Speaker 2>That's you know, more important to me is right now

1647
01:29:37.079 --> 01:29:40.000
<v Speaker 2>is the arming and the speed and the you know

1648
01:29:40.960 --> 01:29:46.399
<v Speaker 2>cost is you know, going faster, and the technology is

1649
01:29:46.439 --> 01:29:48.840
<v Speaker 2>moving faster than we know how to stop it. So

1650
01:29:48.960 --> 01:29:50.359
<v Speaker 2>that's more what I'm worried about is how do we

1651
01:29:50.439 --> 01:29:51.199
<v Speaker 2>counter these things?

1652
01:29:51.399 --> 01:29:53.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I wanted to ask you about that next,

1653
01:29:53.560 --> 01:29:58.359
<v Speaker 1>because if you look at you know, the official military publications,

1654
01:29:58.680 --> 01:30:02.239
<v Speaker 1>counter UAS is like huge thing, like they seem to

1655
01:30:02.319 --> 01:30:05.920
<v Speaker 1>have a huge emphasis on that right now, and everything

1656
01:30:06.039 --> 01:30:09.319
<v Speaker 1>from you know, how does a squad of infantry protect

1657
01:30:09.359 --> 01:30:13.520
<v Speaker 1>themselves to how does the company headquarters protect itself from

1658
01:30:13.600 --> 01:30:14.039
<v Speaker 1>these things?

1659
01:30:14.680 --> 01:30:18.319
<v Speaker 2>What's sort of your view on this, Yeah, so countering

1660
01:30:18.399 --> 01:30:21.640
<v Speaker 2>these drones is very difficult, right, So what you don't

1661
01:30:21.680 --> 01:30:23.760
<v Speaker 2>see in the videos most of the time over in

1662
01:30:23.880 --> 01:30:26.079
<v Speaker 2>Ukraine is how many drones get knocked out of the

1663
01:30:26.119 --> 01:30:31.880
<v Speaker 2>sky from electronic jamming, right, So that is a definite

1664
01:30:32.239 --> 01:30:35.399
<v Speaker 2>way to stop them. So most of these drones, for

1665
01:30:35.560 --> 01:30:37.920
<v Speaker 2>my drone people out there, you know, most of the

1666
01:30:38.000 --> 01:30:40.520
<v Speaker 2>ones being used in Ukraine are operating on simple two

1667
01:30:40.560 --> 01:30:44.800
<v Speaker 2>point four gigahertz bands and that's the radio signal that

1668
01:30:44.840 --> 01:30:47.880
<v Speaker 2>they use to control it, right, And that's essentially the

1669
01:30:47.920 --> 01:30:50.720
<v Speaker 2>same band as Wi Fi. Right, so if you flew

1670
01:30:50.800 --> 01:30:54.399
<v Speaker 2>it in a major metropolitan area with Wi Fi all

1671
01:30:54.439 --> 01:30:57.079
<v Speaker 2>over the place, you would get jammed just by the

1672
01:30:57.199 --> 01:31:03.199
<v Speaker 2>signals that are out there. So you see a lot

1673
01:31:03.239 --> 01:31:06.319
<v Speaker 2>of that jamming happen right now. And then that's where

1674
01:31:06.920 --> 01:31:09.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, for those that are following it, you start

1675
01:31:09.119 --> 01:31:12.119
<v Speaker 2>to see some of the fiber optic drones that are

1676
01:31:12.159 --> 01:31:15.560
<v Speaker 2>coming out. So essentially that's just a fly by wire

1677
01:31:16.199 --> 01:31:18.920
<v Speaker 2>drone that can't be jammed by a signal, by a

1678
01:31:19.000 --> 01:31:22.640
<v Speaker 2>radio signal jammer. It actually has a control wire that

1679
01:31:22.760 --> 01:31:24.840
<v Speaker 2>runs it all the way through and they can fly

1680
01:31:24.960 --> 01:31:27.720
<v Speaker 2>them for five K, ten K, twenty K. I think

1681
01:31:27.760 --> 01:31:30.479
<v Speaker 2>they're getting up there in length. Now. They have these

1682
01:31:30.520 --> 01:31:32.760
<v Speaker 2>huge canisters that they mount on the bottom of them

1683
01:31:32.880 --> 01:31:35.359
<v Speaker 2>and it's just full of fiber optic, you know, thin

1684
01:31:35.479 --> 01:31:38.960
<v Speaker 2>hair like wire and they can go everywhere and not

1685
01:31:39.199 --> 01:31:41.520
<v Speaker 2>have to get jammed. So that's another thing, because now

1686
01:31:41.560 --> 01:31:44.119
<v Speaker 2>you have to have a kinetic stop for that, you

1687
01:31:44.199 --> 01:31:45.479
<v Speaker 2>gotta be able to shoot it down on something.

1688
01:31:45.479 --> 01:31:49.039
<v Speaker 1>I mean that's basically how the toe missile works, right.

1689
01:31:49.399 --> 01:31:53.399
<v Speaker 2>It's a tow missile. Yeah, it's much cheaper, not as effective,

1690
01:31:53.640 --> 01:31:56.760
<v Speaker 2>but much cheaper tow missile. That's I'm sure that's where

1691
01:31:56.760 --> 01:31:57.479
<v Speaker 2>they got the idea.

1692
01:32:00.279 --> 01:32:02.840
<v Speaker 1>And so the book is out now. People can go

1693
01:32:02.960 --> 01:32:07.920
<v Speaker 1>and find it on Amazon. Within sort of the reception

1694
01:32:08.079 --> 01:32:08.800
<v Speaker 1>of this book.

1695
01:32:09.920 --> 01:32:12.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've I mean it's been great. So, you know,

1696
01:32:12.680 --> 01:32:16.520
<v Speaker 2>I self published, uh, you know, publishing it is a

1697
01:32:16.560 --> 01:32:21.239
<v Speaker 2>whole nother conversation. But I self published the book. You know,

1698
01:32:21.399 --> 01:32:23.960
<v Speaker 2>did all the you know, found an editor, found all

1699
01:32:24.039 --> 01:32:26.319
<v Speaker 2>the you know, the artwork, it did all that and

1700
01:32:26.439 --> 01:32:29.239
<v Speaker 2>got it out, came out in September. I believe it

1701
01:32:29.479 --> 01:32:33.560
<v Speaker 2>was doing all my own marketing. You know, getting out there.

1702
01:32:33.800 --> 01:32:37.840
<v Speaker 2>But I've had I haven't had anybody say anything negative yet,

1703
01:32:37.880 --> 01:32:40.479
<v Speaker 2>so that's maybe they liked me, or maybe they liked

1704
01:32:40.479 --> 01:32:43.399
<v Speaker 2>the book. I don't know, but everyone seems to be

1705
01:32:43.479 --> 01:32:45.720
<v Speaker 2>really interested in it, and the concept of it kind

1706
01:32:45.760 --> 01:32:47.359
<v Speaker 2>of like to your point that you're looking to is

1707
01:32:47.439 --> 01:32:51.039
<v Speaker 2>like it is different, and I wrote it differently on

1708
01:32:51.159 --> 01:32:53.399
<v Speaker 2>purpose because you know, there's so many big, you know,

1709
01:32:53.560 --> 01:32:58.199
<v Speaker 2>name like military thrillers out there or military action groups

1710
01:32:58.560 --> 01:33:00.600
<v Speaker 2>or books, and it's you know, they kind of run

1711
01:33:00.640 --> 01:33:03.560
<v Speaker 2>a similar script, i'd say, in all of them. I'm

1712
01:33:03.560 --> 01:33:05.560
<v Speaker 2>not putting any names out there. I'm not doing that,

1713
01:33:05.720 --> 01:33:09.039
<v Speaker 2>but a lot of them run kind of similar scripts

1714
01:33:09.199 --> 01:33:11.880
<v Speaker 2>where you have like this action you know, hero type

1715
01:33:12.600 --> 01:33:15.079
<v Speaker 2>and he's in horrible situations, he does all the great,

1716
01:33:15.399 --> 01:33:18.439
<v Speaker 2>you know things, and then you're like switches to scene

1717
01:33:18.479 --> 01:33:21.479
<v Speaker 2>two and it's like situation room and like, I don't

1718
01:33:21.560 --> 01:33:22.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to know what's going on in the

1719
01:33:23.000 --> 01:33:26.439
<v Speaker 2>situation room. I'm not trying to go that high in

1720
01:33:26.520 --> 01:33:29.880
<v Speaker 2>my books. Uh, there will be some higher headquarters stuff

1721
01:33:29.920 --> 01:33:31.760
<v Speaker 2>in book two, but really I wanted to show like

1722
01:33:31.880 --> 01:33:35.920
<v Speaker 2>that tactical nitty gritty, like when you're the team on

1723
01:33:36.000 --> 01:33:38.319
<v Speaker 2>the ground. You see stuff on the news or you

1724
01:33:38.399 --> 01:33:41.960
<v Speaker 2>make speculations, but you don't know what's happening, you know,

1725
01:33:42.079 --> 01:33:44.920
<v Speaker 2>with the president and you know what SECTEF is doing

1726
01:33:44.960 --> 01:33:46.560
<v Speaker 2>over there, You're just like, what the hell are they

1727
01:33:46.600 --> 01:33:51.319
<v Speaker 2>thinking sort of conversation. So it's been the reception has

1728
01:33:51.359 --> 01:33:55.640
<v Speaker 2>been really you know great, been you know, selling books

1729
01:33:55.680 --> 01:33:57.800
<v Speaker 2>and getting them out there and you know, getting on

1730
01:33:58.039 --> 01:34:01.239
<v Speaker 2>platforms like this and talking about it. I appreciate that

1731
01:34:01.359 --> 01:34:04.520
<v Speaker 2>you having me on let me chat about it, just

1732
01:34:04.920 --> 01:34:06.359
<v Speaker 2>there's no other way to get it out there to

1733
01:34:06.439 --> 01:34:09.039
<v Speaker 2>the right type of people that I think will enjoy it.

1734
01:34:09.640 --> 01:34:12.199
<v Speaker 2>And most of all, like I want them to, you know,

1735
01:34:12.439 --> 01:34:15.119
<v Speaker 2>enjoy the book, but I want to take it, think

1736
01:34:15.159 --> 01:34:17.720
<v Speaker 2>about it, and start trying to like come up with

1737
01:34:17.800 --> 01:34:20.600
<v Speaker 2>your own ideas of like here's where this could be going.

1738
01:34:21.560 --> 01:34:24.319
<v Speaker 2>Like if you're a still active duty military or your

1739
01:34:24.399 --> 01:34:27.920
<v Speaker 2>law enforcement or you know, first responders, like all of

1740
01:34:28.000 --> 01:34:31.159
<v Speaker 2>this is applicable. You know, these technologies are going to

1741
01:34:31.319 --> 01:34:34.159
<v Speaker 2>change the way we do things, whether it's because we're

1742
01:34:34.239 --> 01:34:36.640
<v Speaker 2>on the receiving end of them or because we know

1743
01:34:36.760 --> 01:34:38.800
<v Speaker 2>how to counter them and we've come up with the

1744
01:34:38.920 --> 01:34:42.520
<v Speaker 2>next best thing after this. So that's what I'm trying

1745
01:34:42.520 --> 01:34:45.119
<v Speaker 2>to do with the book is like, hey, here's where

1746
01:34:45.159 --> 01:34:47.840
<v Speaker 2>it's going, Here's what I want to show about it.

1747
01:34:48.279 --> 01:34:50.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, let's have a conversation and you know, I

1748
01:34:50.279 --> 01:34:53.239
<v Speaker 2>hope anybody's out there, you know, hit me up on

1749
01:34:53.399 --> 01:34:55.399
<v Speaker 2>social media and we can we can chat about it.

1750
01:34:55.880 --> 01:34:57.199
<v Speaker 2>Read the book and let me know each thing.

1751
01:34:58.359 --> 01:35:01.800
<v Speaker 1>And for our viewers or listeners, there will be links

1752
01:35:01.840 --> 01:35:05.840
<v Speaker 1>down the description of this podcast to Rob's talk Wretched

1753
01:35:06.760 --> 01:35:10.680
<v Speaker 1>Wretched Descent. You can go and take a look. And

1754
01:35:10.960 --> 01:35:13.039
<v Speaker 1>you said there's a is it a sequel on the way?

1755
01:35:13.800 --> 01:35:17.279
<v Speaker 2>There is? Yeah, so, uh, the intent is three books.

1756
01:35:18.920 --> 01:35:22.800
<v Speaker 2>So last thing I'll probably get into about the book,

1757
01:35:22.840 --> 01:35:27.000
<v Speaker 2>but I framed the book off of the Iliad, So

1758
01:35:27.119 --> 01:35:31.159
<v Speaker 2>Homer's the Iliad. So in the Iliad, you got you know,

1759
01:35:31.279 --> 01:35:34.960
<v Speaker 2>the Greeks and the Trojans, so, and they're in a

1760
01:35:35.119 --> 01:35:37.800
<v Speaker 2>ten year struggle and they're kind of at a stalemate,

1761
01:35:38.199 --> 01:35:40.800
<v Speaker 2>and the only time when one side wins and pushes

1762
01:35:41.000 --> 01:35:42.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, the Trojans back to the wall, or the

1763
01:35:42.800 --> 01:35:45.640
<v Speaker 2>Trojans push the Greeks to the water, is when their

1764
01:35:45.680 --> 01:35:48.880
<v Speaker 2>gods show up and fight on their behalf. Right. So

1765
01:35:48.960 --> 01:35:53.000
<v Speaker 2>I tried to reimagine that as the technologies that you

1766
01:35:53.119 --> 01:35:56.079
<v Speaker 2>see in the book, and when the technologies are there,

1767
01:35:56.439 --> 01:36:01.600
<v Speaker 2>you got you know, overwhelming you know, fire, superiority or force,

1768
01:36:02.079 --> 01:36:05.359
<v Speaker 2>and you start to see that side winning. I tried

1769
01:36:05.399 --> 01:36:08.720
<v Speaker 2>to kind of tailor it off of the Iliad. I

1770
01:36:08.800 --> 01:36:10.439
<v Speaker 2>thought that was kind of a unique way to kind

1771
01:36:10.479 --> 01:36:13.560
<v Speaker 2>of play with it. You'll see there are some easter

1772
01:36:13.600 --> 01:36:17.239
<v Speaker 2>eggs hidden throughout the book, maybe some people's names or

1773
01:36:17.920 --> 01:36:21.000
<v Speaker 2>some different ideas that might help you kind of figure

1774
01:36:21.039 --> 01:36:25.359
<v Speaker 2>that out. But when I wrote it about the Iliad,

1775
01:36:26.119 --> 01:36:31.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, the Iliad stops when Achilles's cousin is killed,

1776
01:36:31.920 --> 01:36:34.600
<v Speaker 2>and that's it. So the whole trojan horse thing and

1777
01:36:35.279 --> 01:36:37.680
<v Speaker 2>all of that, that's actually in a different book. But

1778
01:36:37.760 --> 01:36:40.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm roping all that into one, and I'm taking three

1779
01:36:40.840 --> 01:36:43.239
<v Speaker 2>books as my vision to get to the end of

1780
01:36:43.279 --> 01:36:47.720
<v Speaker 2>this this particular scenario, and don't know yet if it'll

1781
01:36:47.800 --> 01:36:51.159
<v Speaker 2>go beyond that. I have some couple of different endings

1782
01:36:51.199 --> 01:36:54.039
<v Speaker 2>in mind of where it may go. It's just going

1783
01:36:54.079 --> 01:36:57.720
<v Speaker 2>to depend on, you know, what readers think, and if

1784
01:36:57.800 --> 01:37:01.079
<v Speaker 2>the storyline should continue or if I should you know,

1785
01:37:01.359 --> 01:37:03.000
<v Speaker 2>be three and done with that and then move on

1786
01:37:03.079 --> 01:37:03.960
<v Speaker 2>to my next project.

1787
01:37:05.760 --> 01:37:09.720
<v Speaker 1>Do we have a title or anything. For the second book, I.

1788
01:37:09.800 --> 01:37:13.039
<v Speaker 2>Don't have the title yet. I had, I had a title,

1789
01:37:13.159 --> 01:37:14.720
<v Speaker 2>but I've pushed it off right now so I don't

1790
01:37:14.720 --> 01:37:16.319
<v Speaker 2>want to. I don't want to get into that one yet.

1791
01:37:16.680 --> 01:37:19.199
<v Speaker 1>So it went about do you think it'll get out there?

1792
01:37:20.560 --> 01:37:23.800
<v Speaker 2>So I released this one in September. My goal is

1793
01:37:24.800 --> 01:37:29.560
<v Speaker 2>at the latest September of twenty twenty six, if not sooner.

1794
01:37:29.640 --> 01:37:31.960
<v Speaker 2>So I'm already working on it. About a quarter of

1795
01:37:31.960 --> 01:37:35.039
<v Speaker 2>the way in. This one's moving much quicker than my

1796
01:37:35.119 --> 01:37:39.760
<v Speaker 2>first one. So that's that's a good lessons learned, I

1797
01:37:39.800 --> 01:37:43.960
<v Speaker 2>guess with outlining and how to do it properly, and

1798
01:37:44.079 --> 01:37:47.640
<v Speaker 2>a lot, a lot, a lot of less wasted words.

1799
01:37:48.119 --> 01:37:50.800
<v Speaker 2>I think I have a throwaway file from book one

1800
01:37:50.920 --> 01:37:54.800
<v Speaker 2>that's one hundred thousand words of scenes and chapters I deleted.

1801
01:37:55.119 --> 01:37:56.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm hoping to not have that again.

1802
01:37:56.680 --> 01:38:03.560
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, it's a learning experience I find anyway cool.

1803
01:38:03.800 --> 01:38:06.039
<v Speaker 1>Anything else do you want to mention before we get

1804
01:38:06.079 --> 01:38:06.720
<v Speaker 1>going here tonight?

1805
01:38:06.840 --> 01:38:10.960
<v Speaker 2>Rob, No, I think that's it. You know again, I

1806
01:38:11.000 --> 01:38:14.000
<v Speaker 2>appreciate you having me on. I appreciate you know, all

1807
01:38:14.039 --> 01:38:16.760
<v Speaker 2>the listeners and viewers out there, you know, if you

1808
01:38:16.960 --> 01:38:19.000
<v Speaker 2>if this is interesting to you, go ahead and grab

1809
01:38:19.079 --> 01:38:23.039
<v Speaker 2>you a copy. You can find me on uh X

1810
01:38:23.520 --> 01:38:30.359
<v Speaker 2>and Instagram and TikTok our Leach underscore author. Feel free

1811
01:38:30.399 --> 01:38:32.119
<v Speaker 2>to connect. Let me know what you think about the book,

1812
01:38:32.239 --> 01:38:35.600
<v Speaker 2>Let me know what ideas you have, technology ideas you

1813
01:38:35.640 --> 01:38:38.079
<v Speaker 2>can help shape this. You know, I'm not set on anything.

1814
01:38:38.319 --> 01:38:41.279
<v Speaker 2>I know where the you know, the overall story is going.

1815
01:38:42.000 --> 01:38:43.800
<v Speaker 2>But I'm happy to you know, if you come up

1816
01:38:43.840 --> 01:38:45.319
<v Speaker 2>with some cool ideas and you want me to throw

1817
01:38:45.359 --> 01:38:47.279
<v Speaker 2>it in there, let me know, and I'm happy to

1818
01:38:47.479 --> 01:38:50.119
<v Speaker 2>try to jam that into the book somehow, whatever I

1819
01:38:50.159 --> 01:38:52.840
<v Speaker 2>can do to make it more realistic and you know,

1820
01:38:52.960 --> 01:38:56.760
<v Speaker 2>more eye opening for for people. It's kind of the goal.

1821
01:38:58.119 --> 01:39:00.960
<v Speaker 1>So the book is Wretched Descent by Robert Leach. Go

1822
01:39:01.159 --> 01:39:04.239
<v Speaker 1>check it out. We'll have links down the description. I

1823
01:39:04.319 --> 01:39:06.920
<v Speaker 1>see the hard copy behind you. I read mine on

1824
01:39:07.039 --> 01:39:10.680
<v Speaker 1>my kindle was great. On the ebook version was awesome

1825
01:39:11.640 --> 01:39:15.159
<v Speaker 1>and otherwise. Thank you everyone for joining us tonight and

1826
01:39:15.439 --> 01:39:18.319
<v Speaker 1>we will see you on the next episode. So take

1827
01:39:18.359 --> 01:39:18.880
<v Speaker 1>care out there.

1828
01:39:20.359 --> 01:39:20.640
<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

1829
01:39:21.800 --> 01:39:23.560
<v Speaker 1>Hey, guys. I want to tell all of you today

1830
01:39:23.720 --> 01:39:26.880
<v Speaker 1>about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both

1831
01:39:27.000 --> 01:39:30.800
<v Speaker 1>the team House podcast, the eyes On podcast, and the

1832
01:39:30.920 --> 01:39:34.319
<v Speaker 1>high Side news outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor.

1833
01:39:35.199 --> 01:39:38.159
<v Speaker 1>The newsletter is going to be once a week. It's

1834
01:39:38.199 --> 01:39:40.439
<v Speaker 1>going to come into your inbox and you're going to

1835
01:39:40.520 --> 01:39:43.600
<v Speaker 1>get the most current podcasts on eyes On and the

1836
01:39:43.640 --> 01:39:48.079
<v Speaker 1>Team House and whatever's topical or current on the high Side.

1837
01:39:48.359 --> 01:39:50.359
<v Speaker 1>So it's another way for us to get the information

1838
01:39:50.479 --> 01:39:54.239
<v Speaker 1>out to you as social media algorithms are pretty iffy

1839
01:39:54.439 --> 01:39:55.960
<v Speaker 1>and you never really know what you're going to get.

1840
01:39:56.760 --> 01:39:58.840
<v Speaker 1>So this is a once a week email. It'll slide

1841
01:39:58.880 --> 01:40:00.920
<v Speaker 1>into your inbox and it will have you know the

1842
01:40:01.000 --> 01:40:04.720
<v Speaker 1>greatest hits of that week. It's really good checking it out.

1843
01:40:05.680 --> 01:40:09.800
<v Speaker 1>The website for it is Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com,

1844
01:40:09.960 --> 01:40:15.560
<v Speaker 1>slash Join Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com slash join. Uh.

1845
01:40:15.720 --> 01:40:17.800
<v Speaker 1>You go there and you enter into your email list

1846
01:40:18.079 --> 01:40:21.600
<v Speaker 1>or you enter your email into the little thing on

1847
01:40:21.720 --> 01:40:24.079
<v Speaker 1>the website and you're good to go and that'll be it.

1848
01:40:24.920 --> 01:40:27.600
<v Speaker 1>So we really appreciate your support and I hope you'll

1849
01:40:27.600 --> 01:40:31.319
<v Speaker 1>consider signing up. Where's the link. The link will also

1850
01:40:31.439 --> 01:40:33.640
<v Speaker 1>be down the description if you're looking for it there,

1851
01:40:33.880 --> 01:40:38.560
<v Speaker 1>and that's Teamhouse Podcast, dot Kit, k I t Kilo,

1852
01:40:38.760 --> 01:40:43.039
<v Speaker 1>India Tango dot com, backslash Join