Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Depictions Media Radio. Welcome to
Speaker 1: Policy and Rights, the show about Welcome to Policy and
Speaker 1: human Rights. Welcome back to Policy and Race. Here in
Speaker 1: Depictions Media Radio, I'm your host, Michael Cloggs. I'm going
Speaker 1: to share with you a conversation that I had with
Speaker 1: a friend who actually resides in Bay Road. He was
Speaker 1: born there, he grew up there, and he is now
Speaker 1: watching his beautiful country being tore part by war. Of course,
Speaker 1: having lived there as many years as he has, he
Speaker 1: has also watched different factions of warlords and civil war
Speaker 1: also affect his country as a child. Sam Ra Ballon
Speaker 1: is a filmmaker who makes documentaries. As a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: is how we first met was on a documentary shoot
Speaker 1: where we were recording an economic conference that was supposed
Speaker 1: to bring about a new economy UH for for people
Speaker 1: that would that would join all the people around the
Speaker 1: world in a spectacular way. We heard a lot of
Speaker 1: ideas and to this date it has been a struggle
Speaker 1: to actually find a way so that everyone can have equality,
Speaker 1: not only financially but also politically. So that is the
Speaker 1: the hopes and in ideas of uh Samer Sammer's documentaries
Speaker 1: and the work that he does, and one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why he recorded a young lady. At the time
Speaker 1: when he first met her, Mariam was twelve years old,
Speaker 1: and we're speaking about her now nine years later because
Speaker 1: of what is happening in Lebanon today, that the Israeli
Speaker 1: Defense Force has crossed the borders in an invasion into Lebanon,
Speaker 1: and they're saying that, of course their goal is to
Speaker 1: stop the Hasbalah and to stop others, the others from
Speaker 1: trying to harm their country. And as a result, whenever
Speaker 1: there is a war, and you're gonna hear Samra say
Speaker 1: this also that it is civilian population, not the combatants,
Speaker 1: that pay the highest price. It is the civilian population
Speaker 1: that takes the blunt force of military actions and this
Speaker 1: particular war, even though there are rules of engagement that
Speaker 1: say not the tax Savilian sites and not to attack
Speaker 1: civilians at all while those rules are in place, while
Speaker 1: in combat those rules may be ignored. So we're gonna
Speaker 1: hear I'm going to share with you this com rotation
Speaker 1: I had with him just a couple of days ago,
Speaker 1: as he's trying to himself find an exit strategy out
Speaker 1: and also help Mariam find an exit strategy for herself.
Speaker 1: So why don't we listen in on what Salmon and
Speaker 1: I talked about, and as we talk about the war
Speaker 1: in Lebanon between the Lebanese government and the Israeli government,
Speaker 1: and as we talk about other issues and tools that
Speaker 1: are used around the world under the guise of hatred.
Speaker 1: So I'm here today with with Samura Bayoun and he's
Speaker 1: actually in Beirute right right now, trying to You're trying
Speaker 1: to exit to what is it the United Kingdom or France?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 2: Uh, my my closest friend and I are looking for
Speaker 2: a legal way too, uh leave Lebanon permanently. I have
Speaker 2: a Canadian passport, she does not. Uh, So we're looking
Speaker 2: for the best option to just leave the country.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and that that seems like a wise decision
Speaker 1: at the at this point, m So, I mean, this
Speaker 1: this wasn't wasn't happening in a vacuum. This was could
Speaker 1: have been foreseen, couldn't it. Well if relad deciding to
Speaker 1: cross the border and send troops.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, we we We've been going through uh, various
Speaker 2: collapses or whatever you want to call them, for the
Speaker 2: past five years. It started with the with the economic
Speaker 2: collapse in twenty nine and towards the end of twenty nineteen,
Speaker 2: and then was followed up with the you know, the
Speaker 2: COVID lockdown and the Beaute explosion of August four, twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: And you know, we all this time, we just kept
Speaker 2: on saying, you know, we'll just bear it out and
Speaker 2: bear it out. Eventually things will get better. And things
Speaker 2: don't get better than October seven happened. And you know,
Speaker 2: we we thought it was just going to be a
Speaker 2: limited thing. And here we are a year later. There's
Speaker 2: really invaded Lebanon, and you know, things are a lot worse,
Speaker 2: much much worse. We're the Lebanon. Most of Lebanon is
Speaker 2: being bought. The South is not livable anymore. It's more
Speaker 2: than one million refugees in the south, and these little
Speaker 2: Beanese refugees. We're not counting the Syrian refugees or the
Speaker 2: Palestinian refugees back from the fourties. So yeah, uh.
Speaker 1: So, And because because they rooted itself is a big city,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not uh, some small town or something
Speaker 1: like that. So I guess everybody's trying to get to
Speaker 1: uh to be rooted for that reason.
Speaker 2: Well, the Bay Route, yes, it is a big city,
Speaker 2: but there are other places where refugees are going. Uh
Speaker 2: as far north as a B which is like almost
Speaker 2: near Bay, that's really far north. There are a lot
Speaker 2: of communities that have sprung out throughout the route, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, from here, not just in their roots, is
Speaker 2: what I mean. Where they're helping out with the refugees,
Speaker 2: providing food, some even providing shelter. But you know, resources
Speaker 2: are already stretched because we're in the economic disaster here
Speaker 2: to begin with. And uh yeah, so we're helping out
Speaker 2: as much as we can.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, yeah, because uh, I know, the the
Speaker 1: United Nations and the who have have had maybe not
Speaker 1: so much in in we're in Beirut specifically, but I
Speaker 1: know in Lebanon they've they've had had outlets there to
Speaker 1: help people because of because of the economic collapse and everything,
Speaker 1: and then and then the explosion at the Port of
Speaker 1: Favor Grace mm hm so but it at this point though,
Speaker 1: I mean, they're talking about all they started, they've up
Speaker 1: started UNIFIL and all that kind of stuff. But how
Speaker 1: do you have a peacekeeping mission if another country is
Speaker 1: just outright attack.
Speaker 2: UNIFILL mostly are there as observers. They can't much interfere
Speaker 2: militarily on either side. Uh. They're there to observe that
Speaker 2: the whatever resolutions like seventeen oh one and the other
Speaker 2: resolutions are implemented, and to provide assistance when they can,
Speaker 2: but they pretty much have their hands tied. They can't
Speaker 2: do much of anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, yes, I mean, well, well both both countries
Speaker 1: are you in nations, But it's it's like, well, i mean,
Speaker 1: how do you how do you say you're going to
Speaker 1: do have a peacekeeping mission when one country is just
Speaker 1: outrighty being attacked and the other one is is doing
Speaker 1: the attacking. It's like it seemed like the politically the
Speaker 1: solutions are being put forth are forgetting that the real
Speaker 1: people involved.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, But that's true of any time of any
Speaker 2: war that happens, or any kind of aggression that happens.
Speaker 2: It's the civilians that usually ends up paying the price
Speaker 2: either way. And this signds no exception. The toll is
Speaker 2: especially high on the liber East side because we don't
Speaker 2: have any kind of advanced systems to defend against missiles
Speaker 2: or airplanes, or we don't even have an anti you know,
Speaker 2: anti anti aircraft protection system. It's non existent there. So yeah,
Speaker 2: we're we're like, how how should I best put it?
Speaker 2: Like the attacker is extreme severior superior force, like disproportional
Speaker 2: superior force. When it comes to you know, what's happening
Speaker 2: on the.
Speaker 1: Right, he's focusing all, well, the Hesbala has has all
Speaker 1: these arms and are they are they truly organized enough
Speaker 1: to to defend to defend Lebanon if that if that's
Speaker 1: where they they were the the effective army, you know.
Speaker 2: Well, they're not an effective army. They're not an army.
Speaker 2: They're they're not an official army. It's what I should say.
Speaker 2: They are a militia, like many different militias that existed
Speaker 2: during the Civil War hesball and specifically was born out
Speaker 2: of the Ammal movement. The movement was a movement at
Speaker 2: least when it started as part you know, before the
Speaker 2: Civil War and the movement to you know, you know,
Speaker 2: empower the disenfranchised southerners of Lebanon who happened to be
Speaker 2: mostly Muslims, uh. And you know, then the Civil War
Speaker 2: happened and everything went to hell, and all the political
Speaker 2: parties became militias that participated in the war along with
Speaker 2: the warlords, you know, the head of their parties, who
Speaker 2: are now, by the way, our current leaders, our current elite,
Speaker 2: are politicians. Habana was an offshoot of Amman and it
Speaker 2: only came into existence after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon
Speaker 2: and specific in Deir Routes all the which they hut
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're not really a governing party at all.
Speaker 2: No, we are divided amongst eighteen different sects, and each
Speaker 2: sect has one or two of its own political parties,
Speaker 2: and they're always they're sometimes at odds with each other,
Speaker 2: but in essence they're all in cahoots with each other.
Speaker 2: And you know, because of how corrupt they are already
Speaker 2: in their warlords, how less corrupt that teach or work
Speaker 2: warlords or whatever. So they've been robbing the public resources
Speaker 2: or at least dividing them among themselves and their cronies.
Speaker 2: And this is one of the reasons why we've we've
Speaker 2: reached this economic collapse in twenty nineteen. And you know,
Speaker 2: husband as part of all.
Speaker 1: Of that, and it was one of their storage storage
Speaker 1: units or whatever that may have initiated the the ammonium
Speaker 1: nitrate that was at the at the port.
Speaker 2: Well it's not per se there storage festility. It's more
Speaker 2: it's a storage facility at the port. There are several
Speaker 2: parties that are in charge of the port and the
Speaker 2: several you know of the cronies of the political parties
Speaker 2: that have been a benefiting a lot from the port,
Speaker 2: of the records, of the books kind of thing, you know, money, bribes, whatever.
Speaker 2: So uh, I prefer looking at the facts as they
Speaker 2: are and in in my view, the port explosion, this
Speaker 2: whole fiasco, this whole mess is just a it's just
Speaker 2: the result of that corruption and you know, compounded negligence
Speaker 2: and incompetence of the people that have been that are
Speaker 2: running the place. Uh. Yeah, so because because if if
Speaker 2: we I can't see with the facts that this can
Speaker 2: be blamed on one party and you know, none of
Speaker 2: the can be absorbed of this tragedy because they're all guilty.
Speaker 2: They all had a hand, they all knew about it,
Speaker 2: nobody did anything about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you shared with me a video of of of
Speaker 1: a young girl. You you have a probable exit out
Speaker 1: of out of the country. What about the people like her?
Speaker 1: They don't have a way out? And you know what,
Speaker 1: how how do how do they actually find help in
Speaker 1: safety in all well.
Speaker 2: Well to to talk a bit about Madam first, Madam
Speaker 2: used to be what is what that she was? She's
Speaker 2: still alive, but she was a flower, young flower cellar
Speaker 2: in the streets of Hana. She's a refugee from Syria.
Speaker 2: She has no documentation, no no league to travel papers,
Speaker 2: specify or even to that effect, identity papers because they
Speaker 2: fled Syria when she was young and she doesn't happen.
Speaker 2: And at the age of twelve, she was selling flowers
Speaker 2: on streets of Beirut and everybody knew her in the streets,
Speaker 2: and you know, when it came time I wanted to
Speaker 2: do something about refugees, I found her and we had
Speaker 2: a conversation and we shot the Spittal documentary and it
Speaker 2: was all about her hopes and aspirations for the future.
Speaker 2: One of her aspirations was to go back to school.
Speaker 2: I tried my best to help her get back to school,
Speaker 2: but that didn't work out because there's no funding. Nobody
Speaker 2: will take her because she's undocumented. YadA, YadA, YadA. I
Speaker 2: mean there's a lot of corruption there as well. We
Speaker 2: talk about all the aid money that comes in from
Speaker 2: the United Nations and the international community for the Syrian refugees.
Speaker 2: A lot of that money is pocketed by the same politicians.
Speaker 2: Politicians I mentioned earlier. I heard at that time people
Speaker 2: telling me, oh, but you know, the United Nations is
Speaker 2: paying for them, and all the children can go to schools,
Speaker 2: but you know they don't want to be fact is
Speaker 2: that only fifty percent of children had enough funding to
Speaker 2: go to schools. Yes, there's a proportion of them that
Speaker 2: don't want to go to school. Their parents won't let
Speaker 2: them go to school because they're benefiting from them in
Speaker 2: the sense that they're child labor. Put it blunky, as
Speaker 2: it's the case with Maram. But she had her family
Speaker 2: had the will to actually they wanted her to go
Speaker 2: and get educated. But Maram's story is I mean, there's
Speaker 2: more to it than that. We shot this documentary in
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. She was twelve at the time, and two
Speaker 2: years later I wrote a script and my students we
Speaker 2: shot another film with her at this time, a film,
Speaker 2: not a documentary because abandoned. It's about the citizens a
Speaker 2: very gender biased citizenship citizens law in Lebanon which prevents
Speaker 2: women who marry any foreigner to pass on their citizenship
Speaker 2: to their children or their husbands. This law was put
Speaker 2: in place mostly because a portion of the Lebanese population
Speaker 2: feared that this will upset the balance of the sectarian
Speaker 2: communities and thus the balance of power. So obviously, naturally
Speaker 2: they go after the women. If a woman marries another man,
Speaker 2: that means that's it. You know, she has a follow
Speaker 2: the man's religion. So it's okay for impermissible for men
Speaker 2: in this country to marry foreign women, but you know,
Speaker 2: and pass on their citizenship and not for women. Ah.
Speaker 2: The reason we chose Madam for this part is because
Speaker 2: at the end of the documentary she says that one
Speaker 2: of her wish is become an actress if she ever
Speaker 2: gets to Canada. Canada does not on the on the
Speaker 2: table at the moment or since then, you know, for
Speaker 2: various reasons, because she's undocumented, that there's no way to
Speaker 2: take her out anywhere. That said, you know, coming to now,
Speaker 2: there's a harrowing story about Maramus I we'll talk about
Speaker 2: in a bit later, but I like to answer your
Speaker 2: question first. I mean the fifteenth if I if I
Speaker 2: remember the correct number, the fifteenth Amendment or clause of
Speaker 2: the article of the United United Nations Universal Declaration of
Speaker 2: Universal Human Rights stipulates that people should you know, humans
Speaker 2: have the right to move about anywhere they like, right
Speaker 2: within the borders of the country. And it does say,
Speaker 2: you know, change one country to another. But that is
Speaker 2: not the case because of the visa system, especially Western
Speaker 2: visa system, which let's say, favors people of the same
Speaker 2: in a type or color of skin or background, let's say,
Speaker 2: and not Arabs, not people of Asia. And it's much
Speaker 2: harder for someone let's say from Lebanon or East Asia
Speaker 2: to get a visa to Europe or the United States
Speaker 2: or Canada. So there there's a bit of maybe uh uh,
Speaker 2: inadvertent racism that happens there, but it's prevent so in
Speaker 2: my in my opinion, this is a documentary that I
Speaker 2: will be working on at some point, but you know,
Speaker 2: trying to show how this entire system of visas, uh,
Speaker 2: the way it's structured, the way it discriminates, is a
Speaker 2: violation of human rights. So even even even in the
Speaker 2: Denese person with the Libanes passport can't easily see my
Speaker 2: friend that I told you about. She can't just go
Speaker 2: with me anywhere right now, I my can Egan password,
Speaker 2: I can travel anywhere I want, and I turned down.
Speaker 2: I haven't signed up for the evacuation order, you know,
Speaker 2: for the evacuation process that's happening right now for Knadians
Speaker 2: because I can't leave her and I can't leave my
Speaker 2: mom alone here. I can't take them with me, right
Speaker 2: So that leaves us with trying to find a means
Speaker 2: to do this more legally, which is why you know
Speaker 2: we're aiming for in the UK or maybe Portugal. We're
Speaker 2: studying the matter, We're consulting with immigration experts and all that. Madam,
Speaker 2: on the other hand, has new favorites. She has no passport,
Speaker 2: she has as if she does an e so she
Speaker 2: she can't go apply for a visa to begin with. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, she can't go back to Syria to get
Speaker 2: her documentation.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: You know, the situation where is not pleasant either for
Speaker 2: Syrians who escaped there, although a lot of them are
Speaker 2: going back now and there's some class It depends on
Speaker 2: which side of the sense you were on, you know
Speaker 2: when this sold the bacles started in Materia. But Madam's
Speaker 2: story run deeper than that. I mean, she was here
Speaker 2: as a child back in twenty sixteen, she was twelve
Speaker 2: years old, and eventually I lost contact with her in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty when the pandemic happened, and it so happened
Speaker 2: that a few weeks ago we finally reconnected by coincidence,
Speaker 2: and it was a good thing that we did, because
Speaker 2: we sat down and she told me what had happened
Speaker 2: in the past few years. So apparently she at some
Speaker 2: point during the pandemic she went and reported her father
Speaker 2: for sexual abuse and he was sent to prison for
Speaker 2: three is not more than that. I mean, after he
Speaker 2: got out, he was deported, but then he came back
Speaker 2: into Lebanon and issued a lot of threats to her.
Speaker 2: So the family, her brother and others in her family
Speaker 2: decided to marry her off because you know, then she'll
Speaker 2: be under the protection quote unquote of another man. And
Speaker 2: you know, she she got bailed as well, because that's
Speaker 2: part of the whole thing. And you know, she doesn't
Speaker 2: necessarily like the veil, not doesn't agree with it, but
Speaker 2: she accepts it because you know, she has to maintain
Speaker 2: that within the community. So theoretically speaking, she's protected from
Speaker 2: her father because she's married now, she's nineteen. She got
Speaker 2: married two years ago.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, so there's that happening. She is hiding from
Speaker 2: her father and you know, if he does finally he
Speaker 2: might do who knows what he do. Yeah, so's that
Speaker 2: added to the story. And I've spoken with her and
Speaker 2: I've talked and she is a very wilful and strong
Speaker 2: young lady who you know, uh, wants to get out
Speaker 2: of this community that she is in because she understands
Speaker 2: that the only hope she has too self actualize herself
Speaker 2: and her dreams is to be away from the community
Speaker 2: and away from the family and to make it out
Speaker 2: on her own. And that's why I'm looking in two
Speaker 2: ways in which, you know, see if anybody is willing
Speaker 2: to help her, right.
Speaker 1: Well, I know we we shared the first piece she
Speaker 1: did on her on her I spent honestly, I spent
Speaker 1: most of the of a day just sharing with people
Speaker 1: in hopes of trying to find somebody who will be
Speaker 1: willing to step up and help and help her because
Speaker 1: she has. You just expanded on what was already a
Speaker 1: pretty amazing story about an amazing person. But I want
Speaker 1: to go back to a second there because one of
Speaker 1: the things with the US election, the idea of allowing
Speaker 1: immigrants into the United States who are from Arabic countries
Speaker 1: has been politicized there by either side. It doesn't matter
Speaker 1: which side of you of people are going to vote
Speaker 1: rather a Democrat or Republican, both of them are public
Speaker 1: are politicizing the idea of allowing people into the country
Speaker 1: and what types of people should we allow into the country.
Speaker 1: And that doesn't seem to be overt racism. That seems
Speaker 1: to be pretty out there and upfront. Uh, if you're
Speaker 1: an Arab, we're just going to be racist.
Speaker 2: Towardia unless you have money and lots of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Uh, which rolls out a lot of a
Speaker 1: lot of the Lebanese people.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, pretty much. H So the Libaneses can be resourceful,
Speaker 2: but yeah, I mean pretty much. It puts the Lebanese
Speaker 2: into that category, especially now because you know, there's this
Speaker 2: war with Israel and you know, sort of suddenly everybody
Speaker 2: in eleven on the terrorists.
Speaker 1: Right, That's exactly what. There was a a post on
Speaker 1: x that actually said, alway, is that why we have
Speaker 1: so many so many terrorists in our country? And you
Speaker 1: had both Canadians and Americans timing and on on that one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I'm hopeful that at least you will find your
Speaker 1: your yourself will find a way along with with your family,
Speaker 1: you know too, to save grounds.
Speaker 2: So h again, I mean it's easy for me to
Speaker 2: leave any moment I want, because as long as the
Speaker 2: airport is open that is, can even passports. But yeah,
Speaker 2: not PTOM, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but how do you how do you kind
Speaker 1: of how do you leave loved ones behind like that? Right?
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. I mean I'd like to go back to
Speaker 2: something that happened when I was living in Canada, when
Speaker 2: Stephen Harper was Prime Minister back then. You know, he
Speaker 2: put a moratorium on sponsoring parents to come over, you know,
Speaker 2: to integrate parents of immigrants. So there's a for me,
Speaker 2: that's just another layer of the racism that exists in
Speaker 2: the system integration process.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as far as the racism is concerned, it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter which political part, and it doesn't matter the the
Speaker 1: the country for that matter, because Republicans and the Democrats,
Speaker 1: they they find equal number of ways to block people
Speaker 1: from from either moving about the country or or coming
Speaker 1: into the country, you.
Speaker 2: Know, statistically speak uh and you know, according to research
Speaker 2: and studies and whatnot, and influx of immigrants is very
Speaker 2: vital for the economy.
Speaker 1: Yes, I know where I'm actually sitting right now in
Speaker 1: British Columbia, that the municipality itself is trying to get
Speaker 1: more immigration in because they want to grow the municipality
Speaker 1: into a metropolis.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: And then you hear the grumblings of people that, oh,
Speaker 1: they let these criminal types into my neighborhood, and it
Speaker 1: just simply means, let's put it this way. I live
Speaker 1: and I live in an upscale neighborhood myself, and I
Speaker 1: was out walking around the beach one night and I
Speaker 1: got stopped by the police. What are you doing here?
Speaker 1: Then I lived here, It's like, yeah, it's like profiling.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like, oh, and I don't know if
Speaker 1: it was it was another neighbor who just saw a
Speaker 1: person with with colors or your skin walking walking along
Speaker 1: the beach and they decided to call the police, or
Speaker 1: if it was just somebody the cop itself became himself
Speaker 1: with just driving past and said, why is that dark
Speaker 1: skinned person walking along my beach? I don't know what,
Speaker 1: but profiling and uh, And both countries are are pretty good.
Speaker 1: Because I have resident I'm able to reside in either country.
Speaker 2: On that on that topic, uh, I mean, I've studied
Speaker 2: the issue of migrant communities and how let me let
Speaker 2: me paint the picture, because there are a lot of
Speaker 2: parallels with the Native Americans, how they're being treated they
Speaker 2: are the indigenous community, and how you know, other people
Speaker 2: like constins for example in Israel or even in Abanon.
Speaker 2: So you you allow, in the case of North America,
Speaker 2: for example, you allow these immigrants come in and you know,
Speaker 2: at first date, what are they going to do? You know,
Speaker 2: some of them are lucky enough to have a job, right,
Speaker 2: it's wonderful, but they start at the very bottom. That's
Speaker 2: unless unless they're really build engineers or something. Or I'm
Speaker 2: not going to say doctors because I know in Quebec,
Speaker 2: for instance, unless you're certified from Quebec, you cannot be
Speaker 2: a doctor. So a lot of doctors end up working
Speaker 2: as taxi drivers. Right, So economically they're restricted in maybe
Speaker 2: not overkely or directly or anything like that. So what
Speaker 2: what else can they do other than you know, live
Speaker 2: in similar communities and help each other out. And and
Speaker 2: from that because of the oppression, because of the uh inequality,
Speaker 2: social and economic inequalities. Uh it is only natural for
Speaker 2: these communities to resort to crime quote unquote or band
Speaker 2: together and form massias. I mean, we've heard about the
Speaker 2: Italian mafia, the Hyasian mafia, degree mafia, the whatever mafia.
Speaker 2: Of all these different communities, they're they're they're called after
Speaker 2: a certain people's name, like the you know, nationality for
Speaker 2: a reason, and those those reasons are well documented and studied.
Speaker 2: And you know there in the case of Palestinians, and
Speaker 2: I'm going to use the example of Lebanon because I
Speaker 2: know more about it. Uh. And I'll draw the parallel
Speaker 2: here with indigenous communities in North America. Uh. Pat Palestines
Speaker 2: were kicked out of Palestine in the nineteen forties and
Speaker 2: they some of them came to Lebanon and then they
Speaker 2: were put in camps and not given any rights. They're
Speaker 2: not allowed to work, they're not given work permits. A
Speaker 2: lot of stuff happened under the table. Yes, right, great.
Speaker 2: They're not allowed to purchase property. They're supposedly only allowed
Speaker 2: to live in the encampment, but you know, some of
Speaker 2: them do, especially those with money who get out and
Speaker 2: do other things. But they are restricted restrictions. I mean,
Speaker 2: put a people like that for we're talking about the forties, right,
Speaker 2: it's more than fifty years now. These people still live
Speaker 2: in camps in really ugly conditions. They're open sewers. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of population density in these camps because fifty
Speaker 2: years they've populated, they've grown right as a population. Ah.
Speaker 2: So my point being, you know, when you treat people
Speaker 2: like animals long enough, and you know, call them animals
Speaker 2: and warn't about them all the time, and you deny
Speaker 2: them their rights and you know, completely oppress them, what
Speaker 2: expect them to do in the right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, good point. Let me ask you this because because
Speaker 1: we're we're we we are officially talking about Israel and
Speaker 1: and Lebanon in the Middle East. So and I will
Speaker 1: tell everybody listening that if you look hard enough, that
Speaker 1: you actually can find the United Nations footage news footage
Speaker 1: of UH people being interviewed as they were being forced
Speaker 1: forced out of of Palestine and into areas like Lebanon. Uh.
Speaker 1: They can say the Samber talking about and you and
Speaker 1: some of them, the people interviewed, they're saying, they're saying, oh, well,
Speaker 1: we hope to be able to return back to their
Speaker 1: home in Palestine. And one of the porters did ask
Speaker 1: the question will they ever be allowed to return? He say, oh, no,
Speaker 1: they're going forever. This is this is now becoming a
Speaker 1: Jewish state, which leads me to the whole colonialism thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it seems as though when they created,
Speaker 1: when the UN created Israel, that that they have somehow
Speaker 1: or another perfected this whole colonialism thing. That leading back
Speaker 1: to fourteen ninety two again that they've perfected this this
Speaker 1: thing and they just forced people, force one one group
Speaker 1: of people out and put another group of people in, as.
Speaker 2: Happened in North America prior other places as well.
Speaker 1: So it's is this is this ongoing thing that Israel
Speaker 1: has a right to defend itself as a country. Are
Speaker 1: they trying to expand their borders?
Speaker 2: Well with with how they keep letting settlers encroach on
Speaker 2: the West Bank and you know they haven't been doing
Speaker 2: that in Lada because of security reasons, but you know
Speaker 2: they're taking over much more land. And these these settlements
Speaker 2: are many of them are illegal and internashionally they're illegal,
Speaker 2: yet they're being allowed. We in Lebanon, at least on
Speaker 2: beside Lebanese side, there's always this thing where we know
Speaker 2: that you know Israel wants more of our soil and
Speaker 2: the water from the New Townian River. I think there
Speaker 2: are some interviews with some Israeli that kind of point
Speaker 2: to that as well. I mean, at this point, more
Speaker 2: than fifty sixty years, that past Israel exists. It's a reality.
Speaker 2: To be pregnatic, it exists. Uh, there's there's no way
Speaker 2: you know that, you bet. I do not advocate, for example,
Speaker 2: the reverse of what's what's happened what happened to the
Speaker 2: Palestinians just to kicking out israelis to make room for
Speaker 2: the Palestinians.
Speaker 1: No, No, I don't think you need ever say that.
Speaker 2: No, but uh, Israel at this point, Yes, when they
Speaker 2: say they have a right to defend themselves, I agree
Speaker 2: with that, mm hmm. But you know, uh, the best
Speaker 2: way for them to for you know, defend themselves is
Speaker 2: to make things and to resolve the issue of the Palestinians.
Speaker 2: And two, yeah, you know he can't, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: keep beating everybody around you with your superior weaponry and
Speaker 2: all of that, and then when they fire something back
Speaker 2: at your or stand up for themselves. Not that I
Speaker 2: in any forum or shape agree with the tactics or
Speaker 2: or the you know, the entity for example, I do
Speaker 2: not agree with the tactics or ways of doing things
Speaker 2: in anything.
Speaker 1: October seventh. Should should not have.
Speaker 2: Had no, I should not ever that was that was
Speaker 2: the real most stupid thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Anyway, and and and the two hundred missiles being fired.
Speaker 1: I guess it was a week.
Speaker 2: Ago, uh on Tuesday from it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, tes Tuesday. Yeah, you know, No, that's not advocating
Speaker 1: for peace either.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I keep hearing this. We we're firing all these weapons,
Speaker 2: but you know, we don't want to work, Like, Okay,
Speaker 2: what are those things falling on us? You know what
Speaker 2: what does that indicate to us? You know, the suburbs
Speaker 2: of their are are completely demolished, that's talking. You know
Speaker 2: that they they like entire blocks at this point where
Speaker 2: there used to be building. There's nothing but rubbles at
Speaker 2: this point. And you know, they don't want to walk.
Speaker 2: But either side, you know, I mean I can't I
Speaker 2: can't speak for the other side. But in any event, Uh,
Speaker 2: what's happening right now, in my opinion, is just uh,
Speaker 2: the patriarchal societies of the region are just you know,
Speaker 2: in a the same competition. That's the best way I
Speaker 2: can put it. I mean, here is not any who.
Speaker 2: At the United Nations General Assembly, the Lepan side had
Speaker 2: secured even what he called an agreement for sease fire,
Speaker 2: and apparently he indicated that he was for that as well.
Speaker 2: And then suddenly he goes up on the po and declares,
Speaker 2: you know, we're never going to stop. We're going to
Speaker 2: keep on bombing. When they bomb, they collapse six buildings.
Speaker 2: They bomb the hell out of six buildings. That's the
Speaker 2: only time I actually heard the bombs from where I
Speaker 2: was living. They're that's strong. They collapsed six buildings. Just
Speaker 2: to get the head of whoa how many people were
Speaker 2: living in those buildings? They say, okay, Hasballa using cibilians
Speaker 2: as human shields. But the last time I checked the
Speaker 2: you knew that convention doesn't say that if they're they
Speaker 2: are siblings being used as shields, then you can shoot
Speaker 2: at them.
Speaker 1: Right. It doesn't say that at all, you know. And
Speaker 1: of course, yeah, there was another question to the Israeli
Speaker 1: you and ambassador to to the United Nations, is like,
Speaker 1: are they going to roll out targeting nuclear sites in Iran?
Speaker 1: And they won't answer that question. Mm hmm. But you
Speaker 1: say you don't want a war. You don't want mass destruction.
Speaker 2: You know that's a scary fault.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it's we like you and I were were,
Speaker 1: we're filmmakers, we're podcasters and advocates for human rights, and
Speaker 1: we we're like but all you, the rest of you
Speaker 1: big government people are are are advocating by your actions,
Speaker 1: we want more war mm hmm.
Speaker 2: And there's as doubts. Uh, there are other dimensions to
Speaker 2: this as well, uh you, other than the human factor,
Speaker 2: the human cost, the human civilian cost. Because I really
Speaker 2: don't care about the fighters or the leaders on any side,
Speaker 2: because they all collectively brought us to the situation here
Speaker 2: where you know, we have a humanitarian crisis and so
Speaker 2: on and so forth. But here's talk about bombing arounds
Speaker 2: oil facilities as well, not just nuclear ones. We'll forbid
Speaker 2: that they do the kind of fallout we'll get if
Speaker 2: they do bomb the nuclear sites. But you know, I'm thinking, Okay,
Speaker 2: in the past few years, every year has been declared
Speaker 2: the woman's fear ever on date. We have a climate
Speaker 2: crisis on hand, and here they are for what reason
Speaker 2: other than you know, oh, look at us, we're strong.
Speaker 2: We're going to bomb each other's oil facilities and burn
Speaker 2: more oil and you know, increase the carbon outside uh
Speaker 2: emissions around the world. And yeah, we want peace on
Speaker 2: both sides. They both threaten each other that they go
Speaker 2: after each other as well.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's that That isn't a excellent point.
Speaker 1: You know, we we have.
Speaker 2: All these Yeah, ineftably, the entire world is uh, it's
Speaker 2: going to be the victim of this world.
Speaker 1: In your mind, we could be some of the solutions.
Speaker 1: I mean, since we're we're at this, why don't we
Speaker 1: try to solve the world's problems in one podcast?
Speaker 2: Right? Well, I think first and foremost, all nations should
Speaker 2: clamp down on their weapons manufacturers, the companies corporations that
Speaker 2: manufacturer weapons and you know, make a profit out of
Speaker 2: selling them to other places. Uh. The only outcome of
Speaker 2: such a business is to make war and in order
Speaker 2: for them to make more profit. So that that is
Speaker 2: the first thing that I that comes to mind. The
Speaker 2: other thing that comes to mind is, you know, stop
Speaker 2: beings or nations to stop being so uptight about you know,
Speaker 2: visa control and security and you know it more security.
Speaker 2: Then maybe maybe make any I mean, the solution to
Speaker 2: all our problems is all our problems are at hand,
Speaker 2: They're available. You know, it's just the will to end poverty,
Speaker 2: to end hunger, to I know, I sound like a
Speaker 2: hippy at this point, but you know, honestly, the solutions
Speaker 2: are there. It's just nobody wants to take that action
Speaker 2: because oh the economy, oh my political base, you know,
Speaker 2: you know all of that. It's this capitalist structure that
Speaker 2: has imprisoned our mind into thinking. You know, there's no
Speaker 2: way of operating or or or or functioning as economies
Speaker 2: other than you know, being benefiting from more or in
Speaker 2: the case of the United States, for example, the privatized
Speaker 2: prison system, which you know, these these these are corporations
Speaker 2: that are profiting from crime by you know, uh let's
Speaker 2: you know, they won't make any profit if there's no
Speaker 2: crime and people are not going to jail. Yeah, uh uh.
Speaker 2: You know, I'd like for the world nations, especially the
Speaker 2: Western nations, to stop paying lip service to you know,
Speaker 2: just for political points and electoral games, uh to you know,
Speaker 2: lip service to the environment or human human rights. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: we can talk about how abusive uh So the Iranian,
Speaker 2: Afghani and Chinese regions are in terms of human rights abuses.
Speaker 2: I do not discount that at all, but maybe they
Speaker 2: should look in the Western countries should also look in
Speaker 2: the mirror and see where they are going wrong as well.
Speaker 2: I mean they're not Yes, they're better in many ways,
Speaker 2: but they're not completely absolved of being human rights violators.
Speaker 2: And one of one of those systems is the visa system,
Speaker 2: in my opinion, one of the great human rights travesty.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I don't think there's any any country there
Speaker 1: is completely absolved of human rights violations in one way
Speaker 1: or another. It's it's not the absolution, it's the willingness
Speaker 1: to to work towards fixing the problems that we're all
Speaker 1: seen as equal. Mm hmm, yeah, excellent, all excellent points.
Speaker 1: And I do wish you a safe exit out and
Speaker 1: I hope that your young friend I have. Of course,
Speaker 1: I keep butchering her name Marion. Actually, yeah, it is
Speaker 1: something it's something about about the the you uh you
Speaker 1: having the the the accent of the region versus my
Speaker 1: American accent.
Speaker 2: I like everybody usually butchers my name too, so that's
Speaker 2: it's it's a given. But you know, I want to
Speaker 2: go back. You know what the name Maron actually means
Speaker 2: in Arabic, it means aspiration. Well, yeah not, this is
Speaker 2: what this girl has.
Speaker 1: Lady, A lot of the beautiful name to give give
Speaker 1: a person, you know, m hmm yeah yeah. So I
Speaker 1: wish you well and and well we will stay very
Speaker 1: closely in touch. And my hope is is that we
Speaker 1: uh that we find another documentary to do together, because
Speaker 1: that was how we first met. The show has been
Speaker 1: produced by Depictions Media. Please contact us at depictions dot
Speaker 1: media for more information.