WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.080 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.199 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.839 written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week, 4 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:25.800 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 5 00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:29.879 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:40.119 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good evening. 7 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:46.479 In this timely and deeply personal true crime memoir, James Renner, 8 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:50.679 acclaimed journalist, author and creator of the True Crime This 9 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:55.799 Week podcast, and former boy Scout, explores the dark side 10 00:00:55.920 --> 00:01:00.920 of an American institution, it's pervasive culture of sexual abuse, 11 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:05.799 and the traumatic, even deadly, repercussions of its long buried secrets. 12 00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:10.079 In the summer of nineteen ninety five, at the largest 13 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:14.000 Boy Scout camp in Ohio, a night of sexual violence 14 00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:19.200 ended with one councilor dead and another hospitalized. The death 15 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:23.319 was ruled accidental, but it wouldn't be the last death 16 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:29.439 associated with Seven Ranges Reservation. James Renner two was a 17 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:34.000 counselor at Seven Ranges that year. He was always sure 18 00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:36.959 there must be more to the story of Mike Klingler's 19 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:41.640 death because Renner also knew firsthand that the nine hundred 20 00:01:41.719 --> 00:01:45.359 acre camp was not the safe getaway it was portrayed 21 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:50.200 to be. On Friday nights, the boys were ushered into 22 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:53.599 the woods for a frightening ceremony in which they learned 23 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.040 the rules for becoming good young men and above all, 24 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:01.640 that keeping secrets was a Scout's duty, no matter how 25 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:07.280 dark the secrets were. Determined to face his demons, Renner 26 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:10.680 embarks on a journey back to that tumultuous summer and 27 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:15.599 exposes a clandestine society that left indelible scars on the 28 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:20.039 Scouts and the staff who were there. For Renner himself, 29 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:24.840 it meant opening up about his twisted upbringing, his issues 30 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:29.360 with trust and sexuality, and a lifetime of self medication. 31 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:34.599 The result is a deeply personal, no holds barred and 32 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:39.199 vitally important true crime memoir. The book that were featuring 33 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:44.840 this evening is Scout Camp, Sex, Death and Secret Societies 34 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:49.800 Inside the Boy Scouts of America, with my special guest, 35 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:58.080 investigative journalists, podcaster and author James Renner. Welcome back to 36 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:00.479 the program, and thank you very much for this interview. 37 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:02.840 James Renner, Oh. 38 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:06.639 Yeah, thank you for having me. It's become a tradition. 39 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:08.560 I love it, Thank you very much. 40 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:12.439 Yes, and congratulations on your latest Scout camp. 41 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:15.800 Thank you, thank you. Yeah, this one was. It's a 42 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:18.400 book I knew I would get to eventually and kind 43 00:03:18.439 --> 00:03:20.080 of had to grow up a little bit in order 44 00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:22.759 to be comfortable enough to talk about some of the 45 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:23.479 things in here. 46 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:27.599 So right away, this is about the Boy Scouts of 47 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:32.039 America and what happened to you and your friends regarding 48 00:03:32.039 --> 00:03:34.919 the Boy Scouts of America. So let's go to the 49 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:38.080 as you write, the origins of the Boy Scouts of 50 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:41.120 America take us back, sure. 51 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:43.919 Yeah, you know, the Boy Scouts has been it's become 52 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:48.120 such a staple in American life that most people don't 53 00:03:48.280 --> 00:03:51.400 really even you know, consider these things like why they 54 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:54.039 do what they do and where the Boy Scouts came from, 55 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:57.360 how it started. But it's an interesting story and kind of, 56 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:01.319 you know, it may have some effect on the things 57 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:03.520 that went wrong within the Boy Scouts that led to 58 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:07.800 their bankruptcy a couple of years ago. The Scouting was 59 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:12.199 started by a guy named Robert Baden Powell who was 60 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:16.959 out of England, and he was actually first known as 61 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:22.040 kind of a quote unquote hero of the Boer Wars, 62 00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:24.680 which were these wars that were going on in South 63 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:29.680 Africa that the British troops were involved in around the 64 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:33.360 turn of the century of eighteen hundreds into the nineteen hundreds, 65 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:39.399 and Baden Powell was this officer in the British military 66 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:45.439 stationed in South Africa. He while he was down there, 67 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.240 and I believe he was there for several years, he 68 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:52.000 wrote these books called you know that we're about scouting, 69 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:55.319 but scouting in the sense of military scouting, like how 70 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:58.519 to scout your enemies, how to do reconnaissance, things like that. 71 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:03.480 They he sent them back to England and they became 72 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:08.639 pretty popular. But Baden Powell got into what's not told 73 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:11.000 when you talk about the history of the Boy Scouts 74 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:13.000 is Baden Powell kind of gotten a lot of trouble 75 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:18.800 down in South Africa. He there was a tribe down there, 76 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:23.120 a native tribe, and they were causing some issues and 77 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:28.279 he had the leader, the chief of this tribe, arrested 78 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:33.240 and basically went in front of an ad hoc military tribunal, 79 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:37.120 not really a trial, and he had this leader executed 80 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:40.120 in order to control the tribe down there. Now, the 81 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:45.600 tribe considered their chief a god. So you know, some 82 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:48.120 people say he's guilty of d a side down there, 83 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:51.000 certainly of war crimes. Got a little bit of trouble 84 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:58.560 with that. Eventually, the Dutch were invading of parts of 85 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:01.519 English territory in South Africa, and they were what they 86 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:05.600 were fighting over really was gold. The largest gold reserves 87 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:08.240 on the planet are down there, and they were in 88 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:11.920 Dutch territory. The English wanted them. It's kind of longer story, 89 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:16.560 but Baden Powell had a job to kind of engage 90 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:20.759 with the enemy and keep them occupied so that Britain 91 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:25.920 could send reinforcements and and go after these people. But 92 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:29.439 he decided to kind of set up shop in this 93 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:36.560 town called Mayfa King. He basically fortified this little town 94 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:41.959 and he was surrounded by the enemy and was able 95 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:47.920 to fend them off for quite a while. And he, 96 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:50.160 you know, he did all sorts of little tricks, like 97 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:52.920 the enemy didn't know how many people he had in 98 00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:55.759 that town, and he made it seem like he had 99 00:06:55.879 --> 00:06:59.240 a whole lot when he didn't really. He would build fake, 100 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:03.920 you know, kind of platoons. He would have people shine 101 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:06.560 lanterns around during the night so it looked like they 102 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:10.560 had you know, spotlights and things and and then he 103 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:15.279 sent a bunch of people out to bury things in 104 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:18.040 the sand out there, and to the enemy it looked 105 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:20.800 like they were bearing land mines, but really they were 106 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:24.680 just like empty you know, coffee tins and things like that. 107 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:29.480 So it was very much of psychological war. During that time, 108 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:34.079 he was also living with a young man that became 109 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:37.079 very important to him, and you know, they shared they 110 00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:39.360 shared a little cottage for a while. They had a 111 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:43.839 pet pig named Algernon. They shared a bed at times, 112 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:48.759 and this friend of his, he would Baden Powell, would, 113 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:52.759 you know, gift this young man scarves. So you see 114 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:55.040 kind of the beginning of the Boy Scouts shaping here 115 00:07:55.079 --> 00:08:00.399 because the when he was at Mafficking, he he would 116 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:03.279 use the town, the boys in town to do some 117 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:06.600 reconnaissance and he would call them scouts. You know, they 118 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:12.000 had scarves to denote who they were. So after the 119 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:15.120 war when he returned home, by that time his books 120 00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:21.319 were selling quite well and he turned those scouting books 121 00:08:21.319 --> 00:08:25.519 into Scouting for Boys, and that became the handbook of 122 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:29.680 what became the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts came over 123 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:34.200 to America and you see the first troops forming around 124 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:39.720 nineteen ten, using Baden Powell's books their as their handbook, 125 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:42.440 and that's kind of where it started. But you know, 126 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:45.360 when he gets to Baden Powell, you really look at 127 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:49.039 his history, you know, you see that he was a 128 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:53.080 somewhat closeted homosexual. And then later in life, you know, 129 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:58.360 when he gets into seventies and eighties, he starts corresponding 130 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:03.480 to Scouts around the world. He seems particularly interested in 131 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:08.960 their sexual proclivities and how to you know, he talks 132 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:12.879 to them a lot about handle how to handle your 133 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:16.159 own you know, your own member, for want of a 134 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:18.879 better word, and it gets really kind of creepy, and 135 00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:22.000 they kind of keep the you know, his foundation, his 136 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:24.879 legacy and all that. They kind of keep that part quiet. 137 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:27.360 But you know, stuff like that was in the first 138 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:30.120 he tried to get it in the first Boy Scout Manual. 139 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:35.120 So kind of a weird backstory, this guy that started scouting, 140 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:37.960 and you have to wonder, you know, how much of 141 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:43.720 an effect that had on the abuse scandal that led 142 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:45.159 to its bankruptcy later on. 143 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:51.960 You say that scouting for boys also taught the conservative 144 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:58.039 values that were being neglected supposedly in the progressive era. Yes, 145 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:04.720 patriotism self reliance, deference to elders, and respect for God. 146 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:09.759 Yes, you know, the more things change, the more they 147 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:12.720 stay the same. The world as it was at the 148 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:15.360 turn of the century, at least in the United States, 149 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:18.759 it was a time where children were going to school 150 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:21.519 for the first time and being taken out of the 151 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:24.519 minds and you know, factories and things like that and 152 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:29.240 allowed to have essentially a childhood. So that's when the 153 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:34.960 major public school systems began. And suddenly these kids who 154 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:37.919 before had to work twelve hours a day or whatever, 155 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:43.360 they had all this free time and their parents and 156 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:47.039 you know, the society was afraid that they would use 157 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:50.240 this free time to you know, become more liberal, get 158 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:54.720 into trouble, and do crazy things. So that one of 159 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:57.360 the reasons the Scouts formed was it was a way 160 00:10:57.399 --> 00:11:04.639 to indoctrinate these conservative values on a generation of kids 161 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:06.879 that suddenly had the free time to take part in 162 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:10.240 these things. And yeah, so it was it was definitely 163 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:15.559 a reaction to the society's move into a more liberal 164 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:17.039 viewpoint at that time. 165 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:21.759 What were boys and boys like yourself, what were they 166 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:25.600 attracted to? Right from the very beginning of reading this 167 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:29.200 Baden's book, Baiden Powell's book, But what were boys attracted to? 168 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:34.000 What activities did these camps offer that was a lure 169 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:35.879 of sorts for boys? 170 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:41.559 Yeah, I think scouting particularly appeals to those boys that 171 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:48.480 aren't very active in sports and other membership programs and 172 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:51.600 looking for something to do. You know, they're looking for 173 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:55.519 something to do, and what scouting offered was an opportunity 174 00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:58.159 to go with your friends into the woods and go 175 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:02.279 hiking and exploring. Gave you an opportunity to learn archery 176 00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:07.480 and marksmanshift and go swimming and canoeing. So, I mean, 177 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:10.559 it was a lot of fun. Some of my best 178 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:14.879 memories are within the Boy Scouts and the campouts we took. 179 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:17.679 We went camping every month, even in the middle of 180 00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:20.279 the winter. You know. We were camping in tents in 181 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:25.600 you know, parks around Ohio, and I had the most fun. 182 00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:28.039 You know. I'd spend all day playing with my friends. 183 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:32.240 We'd play Capture the Flag, and we'd make meals and 184 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:36.200 have smores and tell spooky stories around the campfire at 185 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:38.480 the end of the night. And I learned a lot 186 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:42.799 about leadership and self reliance through scouting as well. So 187 00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:46.279 it definitely served me in some very good ways. 188 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:46.519 Too. 189 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:50.960 Unfortunately, some of my worst memories are also from scouting 190 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:53.639 as well. 191 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:56.759 You take us to nineteen eighty nine and you were 192 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:00.679 eleven years old, But tell us about your personal life 193 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:03.960 at that point. In nineteen eighty nine, you rite that 194 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:06.279 your parents were divorced when you were three years old. 195 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:10.759 So tell us your situation, your personal life at that time, 196 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:14.080 and the Boy Scouts of America. 197 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:17.159 Yeah, I joined the Boy Scouts in eighty nine. I 198 00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:21.200 was eleven years old, and I was looking for essentially 199 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:24.440 an escape from home. I had a kind of a 200 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:29.039 rough childhood, many of us do. My parents divorced when 201 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:31.279 I was three, and they were very young when they 202 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:33.639 had me. My mother was eighteen when she got pregnant 203 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:36.840 with me. My father was a few months older than her. 204 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:39.200 You know, I had very young parents, and I think 205 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:42.399 that's what led to the divorce so quickly. Then my 206 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:47.120 father married a woman who was very abusive, physically, in mentally, 207 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:50.480 invaribly and all that. So just looking, you know, for 208 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:53.879 any way to get away from her. You know, Scouting 209 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:57.639 presented an opportunity where, you know, every Tuesday night I'd 210 00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:00.000 have we'd have our meetings, and once once a month 211 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:02.200 we'd have these camp outs for a whole weekend, I 212 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:04.919 could get away. So it was there was a lot 213 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:09.000 about it that I liked. And you know, unfortunately that 214 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:14.159 first summer I had gone to summer camp again eleven 215 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:17.519 years old. That summer, you know, there was they put 216 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:20.759 us all in intense together and you know, somewhere during 217 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:25.600 the night, another young boy initiated sexual contact, you know, 218 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:27.759 and looking back on it, I don't know that it 219 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:32.440 qualifies as you know, what I would call abuse. But 220 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:36.039 what worries me most about that is where he learned that. 221 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:40.320 And you know, I've long suspected that there was an 222 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:43.919 adult that was abusing him. And you know, so that 223 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:47.840 sexual awakening at boy Scout Camp when I was eleven 224 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:51.879 ripple effects throughout throughout my life and the way I 225 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:57.240 dealt with sexuality and depression and and all that, all 226 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:00.559 that stuff, you know. But again, I'd return to camp 227 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:03.639 every summer. When I got to be about seventeen, I 228 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:07.879 signed up to be a member of staff at Seven Ranges, 229 00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:11.039 this Boy Scout camp in Ohio, and most of the 230 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:14.000 book takes place during the summer of nineteen ninety five. 231 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:22.440 That summer, things became quite difficult and strange after a 232 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:27.000 councilor sexually assaulted another one of our staff members and 233 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.720 then went home and died by suicide. 234 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:35.360 Let's get to the Seven Ranges Reserve and some of 235 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:37.360 the traditions there and what they're based on. 236 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:44.120 Seven Ranges is in i believe, Carrollton County, Ohio. It's 237 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:48.080 very rural and it's away from any sort of major city, 238 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:50.600 which I think is one of the issues here is 239 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:53.320 they don't have much oversight from any sort of police 240 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:56.519 or any other service, so a lot of things can 241 00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:59.399 go on there under the radar. This is a community 242 00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:03.000 of men nights where they're still rolling around town and 243 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:06.279 their horse and buggies, that sort of place. It's the 244 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:09.320 largest boy Scout camp in Ohio. It's a beautiful place. 245 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:13.440 There's a nice lake and all sort of all sorts 246 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:16.840 of activities for boys, and every week at summer at 247 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:20.879 least back then, we'd have six to eight hundred Scouts. 248 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:26.159 I mean, just so many local troops came to that 249 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:30.120 summer camp. Now, Seven Ranges has a tradition that is 250 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:33.799 now one hundred years old, and it's a secret society 251 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:38.759 which they would love us to call a honor society 252 00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:45.519 called Pipestone and Pipestone is a It happens every Friday night, 253 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:49.799 and it's based off the trials and traditions of the 254 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:54.200 Lakota people, but it has been very much changed to 255 00:16:55.559 --> 00:17:01.600 the white people's perspective over the years. So what happens 256 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:06.160 is Friday night, the scouts are left into the woods, 257 00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:08.839 a part of camp that they're not allow to go 258 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:13.079 to during the week. The first year I took Pipestone, 259 00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:16.119 I was eleven. It was that summer of eighty nine, 260 00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:18.920 and I didn't really know what we were in for, 261 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:22.119 but a scout master led us into the woods. We 262 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:26.240 ended up at this hill of bluegrass and at the 263 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.200 bottom of the hill was this great bonfire, and the 264 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:31.880 scout master left us there, and I was with probably 265 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:35.839 forty or fifty other scouts my age, and we weren't 266 00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:38.440 told what to do. We're just told to wait. And 267 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:42.519 we waited and waited and waited, and I think at 268 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:45.720 least an hour went by, maybe more. We waited until 269 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:47.880 the sun went down and the fire died out and 270 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:51.000 just became members and it was all dark, and then 271 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:54.319 all of a sudden, about a dozen what I thought 272 00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:59.240 at the time were Indians, Native Americans came running out 273 00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:02.839 and pulled us to our feet, and they were dressed 274 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:06.640 in nothing but loincloths, and their skin was red. I 275 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:10.279 learned later that these were just, you know, white people 276 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:13.400 that had painted their skin, but at the time, at 277 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:16.000 age eleven, I sure thought they were real Indians. And 278 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:20.720 they ran us through the woods, through narrow paths, down 279 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:25.079 ravines and uphills, and it felt like we ran forever. 280 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:27.680 And then we came to another clearing, and this one 281 00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:31.839 was a circle in the woods, and on the trees 282 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:36.240 around the circumference of the circle there were the skulls 283 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:39.480 of dead animals tied to the trees, looking down at us. 284 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:42.359 And in the middle was another fire, and behind that 285 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:48.240 fire was a chief with peacock feathered headdress. And this 286 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:52.920 man was morbidly obese and skin also painted red, and 287 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:57.240 his belly was rolled over his loincloth. And through a 288 00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:00.279 series of weird events, I ended up being the first 289 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:02.799 in line to go through the trials that night, and 290 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:05.599 I had to step forward and kind of mimic the 291 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:09.119 actions of one of the Indians, and so eventually I 292 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:10.880 ended up in front of the chief and I was 293 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:14.799 made to drink a liquid out of like a clamshell, 294 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:19.359 and it was the most bitter substance I'd ever tasted, 295 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:22.480 and I knew I couldn't spit it out because then 296 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:24.599 I'd have to go to the back of the line again, 297 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:28.200 so I swallowed it. I learned. I learned years later 298 00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:32.160 that what I was drinking was something called bitrix, which 299 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:34.480 is what they put in anti freeze so that kids 300 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:38.640 don't drink it. So then I was made to lean 301 00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:43.079 down neil in front of the Chief, in between his legs, 302 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:48.000 and he brought out a human skull, and inside the 303 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:50.160 skull where the brain used to be, right, you look 304 00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:52.400 through the eyes and there's a little light back there, 305 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:54.559 and you're supposed to look inside the skull to see 306 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:59.160 the password for the next year of Pipestone, and the 307 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:05.400 password was secrecy. And then I was given the pipestone itself, 308 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:07.319 which is a little token that you can wear on 309 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:11.640 your boy scout shirt and sense to stand with the others. 310 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.039 And at the end, after every boy had gone through, 311 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:18.079 the Chief came forward and gave a speech. And this 312 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:22.000 happens every year. The speeches are different each year of Pipestone. 313 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:25.759 You take that first year, the speech was all about 314 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:30.319 the importance of secrecy and that real men keep secrets 315 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:33.039 from their parents, and we must never talk about what 316 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:37.200 happens at Pipestone with anybody else that hasn't gone through it. 317 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:42.200 So you know, that was a crazy summer for many reasons. 318 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:44.880 But again I came back year after year. I took 319 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:48.720 more Pipestone. Eventually I took Year four and that was 320 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.279 a that was a wild one. The speech for year 321 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.200 four that the Chief gives begins, and I've committed this 322 00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:01.359 to memory verbatim. Chief comes forward and says mastervation leads 323 00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:05.079 to curiosity, and then he talks about how you should 324 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:09.039 leave your friendships with the same sex behind because homosexuality 325 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:12.200 is a sin. So this is what they were talking 326 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:14.720 to boys about in the middle of the woods at 327 00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:19.440 night as young as fourteen. You know that Secret Society 328 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:23.039 operates at seven Ranges to this day, and during the 329 00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:25.759 research of my book, I was surprised to discover there's 330 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:29.880 actually about one hundred and forty other honor societies secret 331 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:32.920 societies that have operated at Boy Scout camps around the 332 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.759 United States. So it's pretty interesting. 333 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:40.920 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear 334 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:46.119 these messages. Now you have this dramatic scene for me 335 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:49.759 anyway reading this, and I think for others, is that, 336 00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:53.400 as you mentioned, every summer you would ask your father 337 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:58.160 if you could work at Seven Ranges, and sometimes the 338 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:02.039 CAP took on younger recruits as councilors in training or 339 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:07.200 as you write, CITs sits. But your father when he 340 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:09.799 dropped you off, you were seventeen years old, and I 341 00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:14.079 had to I waited to ask you this question. You 342 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:16.920 have this in the book. Your father says, I have 343 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:21.039 a bad feeling about that place. Be careful, be aware 344 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:25.400 of your surroundings. Why was it your father? Where did 345 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:29.960 your father? Where did he get this idea? What did 346 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:34.119 you believe at the time was the foundation of his 347 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.680 fear that he expressed in what he said to you. 348 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:41.799 That's a good question. I've asked them this recently. You 349 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:44.680 know what he says is, you know, you got to 350 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:48.240 understand we're coming from Ohio in the late eighties, and 351 00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:52.039 you know he's very conservative too. What he saw that 352 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:56.960 upset him was the former program director for Seven Ranges, 353 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:01.200 a guy named Dave Wagner, who is really just he 354 00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:06.839 was just a fantastic person and never any issues with him. 355 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:09.559 He's somebody that I looked up to, is kind of 356 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:13.759 a mentor. But apparently when my dad dropped me off 357 00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:17.400 that summer, Dave Wagner was walking around in short shorts, 358 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:20.440 and my dad picked up pretty quickly that this man 359 00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:24.720 was gay, and he was and that upset my father 360 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:27.359 and he didn't like the idea that I was spending 361 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:30.319 a week at a camp that was run by a homosexual. 362 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:34.680 So Dave was never an issue or a danger to 363 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:38.079 anybody at camp, but there certainly were a lot of 364 00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:41.119 other dangers and a lot of other dangerous people there. 365 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:43.440 You know, I don't know if it was more than that, 366 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:46.039 but that's kind of the story he tells me. But 367 00:23:46.119 --> 00:23:49.359 there was an odd vibe in general about that camp, 368 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:54.880 you know, the you know it just it has bad mojo. 369 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:57.599 There's a bad vibe there, and there always was. 370 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:03.160 All this what happens in nineteen ninety five, despite your 371 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:07.839 father's warning, despite you not having so many reservations, what 372 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:10.640 happens in nineteen ninety five, And you write in this 373 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:13.720 book that to put this all together too, you had 374 00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:18.960 to correspond with people and hopefully talk to as many 375 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:21.640 people as possible to fill out this story of what 376 00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:23.480 happened in nineteen ninety five. 377 00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:26.559 Yeah, I had to track down my old friends who 378 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:29.279 I hadn't talked to in like thirty years to kind 379 00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:32.799 of get at the truth of what exactly happened. There 380 00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:37.599 was a counselor there named Mike Kleinler and was in 381 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.200 charge of the CITs and those are counselors in training, 382 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:44.920 and I was a staff member, but I signed up late. 383 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:48.519 So my bunk originally was in Citville, which is this 384 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:51.400 group of tents down by the dining hall that you 385 00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:54.160 that are hidden behind a bunch of pine trees. And 386 00:24:54.279 --> 00:24:57.400 Kleingler was kind of the lead staff member that was 387 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:00.640 kind of keeping an eye out for every buddy down there. 388 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:03.519 And so that's how I met him at first. And 389 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:06.920 kind of a weird guy. Just gave me a weird vibe, 390 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:09.720 you know, he said I had. He made a point 391 00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:12.200 to talk about my ears. He said they looked like 392 00:25:12.279 --> 00:25:15.720 elves ears, and just I don't know, just kind of 393 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:18.960 a funny feeling. I ended up moving out of CIVL. 394 00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:22.359 I lived out of ADMIN for the rest well half 395 00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:26.240 of that summer anyways. But so what happens is about 396 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:32.640 halfway through the summer, Kleingler follows another staff member on 397 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:35.240 an overnight camp out in the middle of the woods. 398 00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:39.440 And this other councilor is in charge of very young 399 00:25:39.559 --> 00:25:42.279 kids and for one of their merit badges, they have 400 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:46.599 to sleep outside for a night. And so he led 401 00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:49.759