1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:01,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to thrilling Threads. 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 2: It's great to be here. You know. 3 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: It's funny whenever you bring up the idea of like 4 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,759 secret bases, everyone's mind just immediately snaps to one. 5 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 2: Place, Area fifty one. 6 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,839 Speaker 1: Area fifty one. Of course, it's become this pop culture monolith. 7 00:00:14,919 --> 00:00:18,239 It's on t shirts, it's the entire plot of Independence Day. 8 00:00:18,399 --> 00:00:21,000 It's you know, it's almost a brand at this point. 9 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,039 Speaker 2: It really is. It's the celebrity of classified locations. It's 10 00:00:24,039 --> 00:00:26,079 famous for being famous, right. 11 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,719 Speaker 1: I was even looking at some travel blogs the other day, 12 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,840 and people book tours to go out into the Nevada 13 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,159 Desert just to take a picture with the mailbox on 14 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,799 the side of the road. It's become a tourist attraction. 15 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:40,719 Speaker 2: Which, if you think about it, is probably the best 16 00:00:40,719 --> 00:00:42,479 counterintelligence strategy you could. 17 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: Ask for exactly. That's what I was thinking. Looking through 18 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,640 the stack of reports we have today. It strikes me 19 00:00:47,679 --> 00:00:49,719 that if you know the name of the base, the 20 00:00:49,759 --> 00:00:51,880 real secrets are probably long gone. 21 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely, the moment something enters the public consciousness, it's 22 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,759 no longer the bleeding edge of secrecy. It's a distraction. 23 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,039 Speaker 1: It's the magician's left hand isn't it waving this big, 24 00:01:03,079 --> 00:01:07,519 flashy handkerchief that says aliens while the right hand is, 25 00:01:07,599 --> 00:01:10,640 you know, doing something truly terrifying just out of sight. 26 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 2: That's a perfect analogy. Stake craft, especially at the highest 27 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:19,200 security levels, is all about managing perception. The really sensitive stuff, 28 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,359 the operations that can genuinely alter geopolitics or destabilizer region. 29 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,439 They're not happening where tourists are taking selfies. 30 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: So today we're pulling the thread on those other places, 31 00:01:29,359 --> 00:01:31,519 the ones that make Area fifty one look like I 32 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,040 don't know, a public park. We're talking about the unknown unknowns, 33 00:01:35,159 --> 00:01:35,760 or at least. 34 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,159 Speaker 2: They recently known unknown. Yes. 35 00:01:37,239 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, We've got documents here on holloed out glaciers in 36 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,480 Greenland that were meant to be a hidden nuclear launch site. 37 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,640 We're looking at reports on invisible prisons tucked away in 38 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,680 Polish forests that legally just didn't exist. 39 00:01:50,799 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: And then there's this one completely non descript office in 40 00:01:54,159 --> 00:01:56,719 North Korea that is, for all intents and purposes, a 41 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,319 state run mafia that funds the entire regime. 42 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: But this isn't just a travelogue of keepout signs. I 43 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,200 think what's important is to look at Why. 44 00:02:03,599 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 2: Yes, it's the psychology behind it all. Why do we 45 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,560 hide things? Why do nations feel the need to build 46 00:02:10,719 --> 00:02:15,080 entire cities inside mountains? Why does a corporation guard a 47 00:02:15,159 --> 00:02:19,039 soda recipe with the same intensity as nuclear launch codes. 48 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,719 Speaker 1: It's really the mechanics of concealment. We've gone through declassified 49 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,319 Army Corps of Engineers reports, State Department cables that were 50 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,520 leaked years ago, even some incredibly dense glaciological surveys to 51 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:31,439 piece this together. 52 00:02:31,759 --> 00:02:34,159 Speaker 2: And the common theme, the thread running through all of 53 00:02:34,159 --> 00:02:38,199 it is paranoia. It's Cold War military paranoia, it's corporate 54 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:43,400 economic paranoia. It's the existential survivalist paranoia of an isolated regime. 55 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:45,400 It all comes from the same place. 56 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,199 Speaker 1: So for you listening, I want you to imagine something. 57 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,759 Imagine you're standing at a fence line. It's not just 58 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,919 barbed wire, it's brizzling with sensors and cameras, and you 59 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,039 know that crossing it doesn't just mean a fine or 60 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:57,039 a slap on the wrist. 61 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:58,039 Speaker 2: It means you vanish. 62 00:02:58,199 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: It means you step into a legal black hole, a 63 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,520 place where the normal rules just don't apply. Today, we're 64 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,080 going to take you inside that perimeter. 65 00:03:05,439 --> 00:03:07,319 Speaker 2: So where should we start. The ice seems like a 66 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:07,879 good place. 67 00:03:08,199 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: Let's start with a project that on paper sounds like 68 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,240 one of the most ambitious engineering feats imaginable. But in 69 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,240 reality it was just a ticking environmental time bomb. 70 00:03:18,319 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: You have to be talking about the Greenland ice sheet. 71 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,439 Speaker 1: Camp century now. The official story, the public facing narrative 72 00:03:24,439 --> 00:03:27,159 in nineteen fifty nine, was that this was a scientific 73 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,919 research station, science under the stars, or I guess science under. 74 00:03:31,719 --> 00:03:37,199 Speaker 2: A mile of snow, a noble cause, studying glaciology, weather patterns. 75 00:03:36,879 --> 00:03:39,719 Speaker 1: Right, But looking at the actual declassified mission profile, this 76 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,520 was never really about studying ice cores, was it. The 77 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:43,840 project had another name. 78 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,479 Speaker 2: A much more revealing one, Project ice Worm. 79 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: Project ice Worm. I mean, the name alone just tells 80 00:03:49,599 --> 00:03:51,240 you something is deeply wrong here. 81 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,759 Speaker 2: It does. The scientific research was the cover story. It 82 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,639 was a plausible reason to have hundreds of Army engineers 83 00:03:57,639 --> 00:04:01,000 digging around in the Greenland ice cap. The real strategic 84 00:04:01,039 --> 00:04:04,599 goal of Project ice Worm was to fundamentally alter the 85 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:05,800 nuclear balance of power. 86 00:04:06,039 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: They wanted to turn Greenland into a massive hidden and 87 00:04:09,599 --> 00:04:12,080 this is the key part mobile missile launch pad. 88 00:04:12,159 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: They get around the biggest fear of the Cold War. 89 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,000 The First Strike explain that well, in the late fifties, 90 00:04:18,319 --> 00:04:23,319 US military planners were terrified that Soviet ICBMs could wipe 91 00:04:23,319 --> 00:04:26,399 out all of our stationary missile silos in a surprise attack. 92 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:31,040 Mutually assured destruction, you know the principle, it keeps everyone 93 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,199 from pushing the button. It only works if you can 94 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:34,839 guarantee a retaliatory strike. 95 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,759 Speaker 1: So if your missiles are all in fixed locations, they're 96 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:39,199 sitting ducks exactly. 97 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: So the army's logic was, what if the missiles aren't stationary, 98 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:44,279 what if they're constantly moving? 99 00:04:44,439 --> 00:04:46,519 Speaker 1: It's the shell game, the ultimate. 100 00:04:46,199 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 2: Shell game, played with thermonuclear warheads. The plan, and I'm 101 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,920 looking at the diagrams here. That scale is it's staggering. 102 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,879 They proposed a network of tunnels covering fifty two thousand 103 00:04:58,959 --> 00:04:59,519 square mile. 104 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: Wait wait, fifty two thousand square miles. 105 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 2: That's three times the size of Denmark, a hidden subterranean 106 00:05:05,319 --> 00:05:08,240 railway system, all carved out from inside the ice sheet. 107 00:05:08,319 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: How is that even physically possible? How do you build 108 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,199 a railway inside a glacier? 109 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: They brought in these enormous Swiss snow milling machines. They 110 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,079 were called Peter snow Miller's. They would carve these massive 111 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,800 trenches into the ice, like digging a subway line. Then 112 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,079 they'd cover the trench with a big corrugated steel arch 113 00:05:25,519 --> 00:05:28,279 and just let the snow fall and bury it completely. 114 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,959 From the surface, it would be invisible and down below, 115 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,959 down below, you'd have these rail lines. The plan was 116 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,279 to deploy six hundred specially designed Iceman missiles, each on 117 00:05:38,319 --> 00:05:42,199 a railcar, constantly circulating through thousands of miles of tunnels. 118 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,720 The Soviets might know the general area, but they could 119 00:05:45,759 --> 00:05:48,319 never pinpoint where a missile was at any given moment. 120 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: It's diabolically clever. But the infrastructure to support that, you'd need. 121 00:05:52,639 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: A city, and that's what camps Centry was. It was 122 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,920 a prototype city. It wasn't just tunnels. They had prefabricated 123 00:05:57,959 --> 00:06:01,519 buildings inside the ice caves. There was a chapel, a hospital, 124 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,560 a library, a theater that showed movies every night. 125 00:06:04,519 --> 00:06:06,439 Speaker 1: A hobby shop, I see that in the notes, a 126 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:07,160 hobby shop. 127 00:06:07,439 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: It housed two hundred soldiers, living year round, one hundred 128 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:11,879 feet beneath the surface of the. 129 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: Ice, which brings up the next obvious problem. How do 130 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,000 you power a city? That's buried in ice hundreds of 131 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:18,600 miles from. 132 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 2: Anything, right, you can't exactly run an extension cord, and 133 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,480 diesel generators would be a nightmare for ventilation. So they 134 00:06:25,519 --> 00:06:29,319 came up with a solution that is the absolute peak 135 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,959 of Cold War technological arrogance. 136 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: Oh, I know where this is going. 137 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,639 Speaker 2: They installed a portable nuclear reactor, a. 138 00:06:36,639 --> 00:06:40,319 Speaker 1: Portable nuclear reactor inside a glacier, the. 139 00:06:40,199 --> 00:06:43,959 Speaker 2: Alco PM two A. It was the world's first mobile 140 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,000 nuclear power plant. It arrived in modules my giant sleds 141 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,519 pulled by tractors, and they assembled it on site inside 142 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:52,959 a cavern carved out of the ice. 143 00:06:53,079 --> 00:06:55,959 Speaker 1: It's just every part of that sentence is more alarming 144 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,600 than the last. Now you'd think someone, some engineer would 145 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,800 have paused and asked, hey, hey, is the ice actually 146 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:03,720 stable enough to hold a nuclear reactor. 147 00:07:03,759 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 2: You would think so, But according to all the post 148 00:07:05,759 --> 00:07:11,079 wartem reports, they severely catastrophically underestimated the reology of glacial ice, 149 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,800 the what freology, the study of how materials flow. They 150 00:07:14,839 --> 00:07:16,959 treated the glacier like it was a solid piece of rock, 151 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,600 but it's not. It's a viscoelastic material, meaning it flows 152 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:26,079 like incredibly slow incredibly heavy molasses. As soon as they 153 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,399 dug the tunnels, the immense weight of the ice sheet 154 00:07:29,399 --> 00:07:31,279 above them started to compress everything. 155 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: The walls were literally closing in, quite literally. 156 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: The tunnels were deforming. The main reactor tunnel was shrinking 157 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,879 by several inches a month. They had to send out 158 00:07:39,959 --> 00:07:44,120 teams with what were basically giant chainsaws to constantly shave 159 00:07:44,199 --> 00:07:47,040 back the ice walls just to keep the reactor's containment 160 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:48,279 vessel from being crushed. 161 00:07:48,319 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: That sounds like a horror movie. You're living in this 162 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,199 nuclear powered freezer that is actively trying to squeeze you 163 00:07:53,199 --> 00:07:53,560 to death. 164 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: It was an engineering nightmare. By nineteen sixty four, they 165 00:07:56,959 --> 00:08:00,680 knew it was untenable. They removed the reactor in sixty seven. 166 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,959 The entire camp was abandoned, the ice at one. 167 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: But that's not where the story ends, is it. And 168 00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:08,040 this is the part that I find genuinely terrifying today. 169 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: No, it's not. When they left they decommissioned and removed 170 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,800 the reactor itself, yes, but they left everything. 171 00:08:14,519 --> 00:08:17,399 Speaker 1: Else, all the dirty infrastructure. We're talking about what two 172 00:08:17,519 --> 00:08:19,920 hundred thousand liters of diesel fuel. 173 00:08:19,759 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 2: PCBs, which are incredibly toxic and estimated twenty four million 174 00:08:24,639 --> 00:08:28,759 liters of untreated sewage in a giant sump, and of 175 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,959 course low level radioactive coolant water from the reactor. 176 00:08:31,759 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: All just left there, buried under the snow. What was 177 00:08:34,639 --> 00:08:35,240 their thinking? 178 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,919 Speaker 2: They operated under the assumption that the Greenland ice sheet 179 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:41,080 would accumulate snow forever. It was the old mantra the 180 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,759 solution to pollution is dilution or in this case, burial. 181 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,720 They genuinely thought the ice would seal it all in 182 00:08:47,759 --> 00:08:50,960 for eternity, an icy tomb, right, But they didn't account 183 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,240 for one thing climate change. Climate change has completely flipped 184 00:08:54,279 --> 00:08:57,000 the script. The ice sheet is no longer accumulating mass 185 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,559 in that region. It's melting. A big study in twenty 186 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,320 sixteen show that the rate of melt means camp century 187 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:04,879 and all its toxic waste could be exposed to the 188 00:09:04,879 --> 00:09:06,639 surface environment within this century. 189 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: So it's not a tomb. It's a time bomb, a 190 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,080 cold war toxic waste stump that's about to be unsealed 191 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,320 by modern climate dynamics. 192 00:09:13,879 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: And it creates a huge geopolitical mess. Greenland is a 193 00:09:17,279 --> 00:09:19,759 self governing territory of Denmark, but this is a US 194 00:09:19,759 --> 00:09:23,480 military project built under a treaty that's now defunct, so 195 00:09:23,519 --> 00:09:25,200 who's responsible for cleaning it up? 196 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,159 Speaker 1: Nobody wants to touch it. It's a perfect example of 197 00:09:28,279 --> 00:09:33,960 short term military paranoia creating a long term, multi generational catastrophe. 198 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,159 It is, and speaking of a massive paranoid construction projects, 199 00:09:38,399 --> 00:09:40,919 let's move from the shifting ice of Greenlands to the 200 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,440 solid granite of Russia. 201 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 2: Come Mount Yemen Tao. 202 00:09:43,799 --> 00:09:47,399 Speaker 1: This feels like the spiritual successor to the Camp century mindset, 203 00:09:47,639 --> 00:09:50,120 the same impulse to burrow into the earth, but on 204 00:09:50,159 --> 00:09:52,840 a much much more permanent scale. We're looking at the 205 00:09:52,879 --> 00:09:55,080 closed town of Mesgori. 206 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,519 Speaker 2: In the Southern Neural Mountains. And when we say closed town, 207 00:09:57,559 --> 00:09:59,240 we need to be clear about what that means in 208 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:00,000 a Russian content. 209 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,879 Speaker 1: This is a zatto, a closed administrative territorial formation. 210 00:10:04,159 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 2: Right. These are entire cities that for decades did not 211 00:10:08,039 --> 00:10:10,799 appear on any public maps. They had code names like 212 00:10:10,919 --> 00:10:14,679 Arzama sixteen or Jellievents seventy. To get in or out, 213 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,639 you need a special pass, a propusk, even for Russian. 214 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: Citizens, and Mezgori exists solely to service whatever's happening inside 215 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:22,879 Mount Yamontou. 216 00:10:23,159 --> 00:10:25,879 Speaker 2: That's right, and the satellite imagery from over the years 217 00:10:25,919 --> 00:10:30,200 is just it's wild. You see these massive excavation projects, 218 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,919 new roads, heavy gauge railway lines that just disappear straight 219 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:34,919 into the face of the mountain. 220 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:36,879 Speaker 1: The amount of dirt and rock they've pulled out of 221 00:10:36,879 --> 00:10:40,480 that mountain is supposedly equivalent to dozens of Great Pyramids 222 00:10:40,519 --> 00:10:41,480 of Giza. 223 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: The scale is almost incomprehensible. And the prevailing theory among 224 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,759 Western intelligence analysts, and this is backed up by defector 225 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,840 reports and construction data, is that Yamantao is the crown 226 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,639 jewel of Russia's continuity of government program. 227 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: It's their doomsday bunker. 228 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,279 Speaker 2: It's more than a bunker. This isn't just a command 229 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,360 post for a few dozen officials. The infrastructure suggests it's 230 00:11:03,399 --> 00:11:04,320 a survival city. 231 00:11:04,399 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: A survival city. 232 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:10,879 Speaker 2: It's designed to house the entire Russian leadership, political and military, 233 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,120 along with their families and enough technical and support staff 234 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,120 to maintain a functioning government for months, maybe even years, 235 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,159 after a full scale nuclear exchange. 236 00:11:19,279 --> 00:11:23,639 Speaker 1: It's the ultimate prepper fantasy, just funded by a superpower. 237 00:11:24,519 --> 00:11:28,159 The US has Chian Mountain and Raven Rock, but from 238 00:11:28,159 --> 00:11:31,720 what I've read, the sheer volume of rock excavated at 239 00:11:31,799 --> 00:11:34,519 Yamantao suggests something far, far. 240 00:11:34,399 --> 00:11:37,879 Speaker 2: Larger and much newer. What's really telling is when the 241 00:11:37,919 --> 00:11:42,000 major construction happened. Cheyenne Mountain is largely a relic of 242 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,759 the fifties and sixties. At Yemantoo, construction kicked into high 243 00:11:45,759 --> 00:11:47,240 gear in the nineteen nineties. 244 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,039 Speaker 1: Wait after the Cold War. 245 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: Ended, right, think about that timeline. The Soviet Union has 246 00:11:52,519 --> 00:11:55,720 just collapsed. The Russian economy is an absolute free fall. 247 00:11:55,759 --> 00:11:59,519 People are standing in breadlines, but somehow billions of rubles 248 00:11:59,519 --> 00:12:02,399 are still funneled into digging out this mountain. 249 00:12:02,519 --> 00:12:04,279 Speaker 1: That tells you everything you need to know about their 250 00:12:04,279 --> 00:12:05,440 strategic priorities. 251 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 2: He tells you that the survival of the state apparatus, 252 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,559 the core of the government, was deemed more important than 253 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,080 the entire civilian economy. 254 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: This is their backup hard drive, and Russia's official explanation. 255 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 2: Is oh, They've offered a whole menu of cover stories. 256 00:12:17,519 --> 00:12:21,120 They've claimed it's a mining site, a repository for state treasures. 257 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,399 My personal favorite is that it's a giant food storage facility. 258 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: A food storage facility guarded by spetsnaws and serviced by 259 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,720 heavy rail lines going miles underground. 260 00:12:30,799 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: It's not plausible. You don't drill into solid granite to 261 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,559 store buckwheat. You do it to survive a direct hit 262 00:12:37,879 --> 00:12:39,519 from a multi megaton warhead. 263 00:12:39,879 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: So it's interesting to contrast the two camp Century was 264 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,679 offensive right hiding the sword. 265 00:12:44,399 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 2: And Yamantew is defensive, hiding the shield or at least 266 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:48,360 the person holding it. 267 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: But both of them rely on the geography itself to 268 00:12:51,279 --> 00:12:55,679 provide the ultimate security. One uses ice, the other uses rock. 269 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,519 Speaker 2: Geography is the original armor. 270 00:12:57,639 --> 00:13:00,039 Speaker 1: Okay, so let's pivot back to the US for a minute. 271 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,159 We started this by sort of bashing Area fifty one 272 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,320 for being too famous to mainstream the decoy. The decoy, 273 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,440 So if that's the distraction, where is the real work happening. 274 00:13:10,039 --> 00:13:13,799 Our notes point to a place just about seventy miles northwest. 275 00:13:13,279 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 2: Of Groom Lake, the Tanopa Test Range. 276 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,759 Speaker 1: NOPA feels like the I don't know, the indie band 277 00:13:17,919 --> 00:13:20,080 version of Area fifty one. It's where the really cool 278 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,080 classified projects are happening before they sold out and got famous. 279 00:13:23,279 --> 00:13:24,759 Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it. It's where the 280 00:13:24,799 --> 00:13:28,480 operational testing happens. If Area fifty one is the R 281 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,600 and D lab where you build the prototype TOANPA is 282 00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:33,600 the proving ground where you figure out how to actually 283 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,120 use it as a weapon, and. 284 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,039 Speaker 1: Its history is just incredible. This is where the F 285 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,799 one seventeen Nighthawk, the original stealth fighter, lived in secret 286 00:13:41,919 --> 00:13:43,000 for nearly a decade. 287 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,279 Speaker 2: From nineteen eighty two to nineteen eighty nine. The F 288 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,759 one seventeen was a fully operational aircraft. They had an 289 00:13:48,919 --> 00:13:53,120 entire wing of pilots flying these bizarre triangular jets out 290 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,679 of to Noopa every night, and the public had no 291 00:13:55,759 --> 00:13:56,960 idea they even existed. 292 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: I can't imagine what that life was like for those pilots. 293 00:13:59,639 --> 00:14:03,039 The notes described their routine and it's exhausting just to read. 294 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,399 Speaker 2: It's surreal. They'd fly in from Las Vegas on these dedicated, 295 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,639 completely unmarked seven thirty seven, the infamous Janet Airlines. They'd 296 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,399 fly in on a Monday, live at the base all 297 00:14:12,399 --> 00:14:15,320 week in dorms that supposedly had no windows to preserve 298 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,840 their night vision. They'd fly their missions only at night. 299 00:14:18,039 --> 00:14:19,600 Then they'd fly home on Friday, and. 300 00:14:19,559 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: They couldn't say a word to their wives, to their kids, 301 00:14:21,879 --> 00:14:24,000 to their friends. They were ghost commuters working in a 302 00:14:24,039 --> 00:14:24,840 secret air force. 303 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: The psychological pressure must have been immense. You're flying the 304 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,799 single most advanced aircraft on the planet, a machine that's 305 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,399 basically invisible to radar. And when your neighbor at a 306 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,879 barbecue asks what you do for a living, you have 307 00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:38,840 to lie and say, oh, I push paper at a 308 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,080 logistics hub at Nellys. 309 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just American tech they were flying, was 310 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,759 it Toanopo was also home to the Red Hats and 311 00:14:44,799 --> 00:14:45,559 the Red Eagles. 312 00:14:45,679 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: Correct the four to four hundred and seventy seventh Test 313 00:14:48,159 --> 00:14:51,639 and Evaluation Squadron an amazing story. They had managed to 314 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:57,000 acquire through various clandestine means, actual Soviet Meg fighters. 315 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,039 Speaker 1: So they're flying real MiG. 316 00:14:58,879 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: Real MiG seventeens, MiG twenty one's, MiG twenty threes. They 317 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,000 were flying them over the Nevada Desert, dogfighting against our 318 00:15:05,039 --> 00:15:07,960 own pilots to find their weaknesses, to develop tactics to 319 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:08,399 beat them. 320 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: That is just wild. So imagine you're a civilian, maybe 321 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:12,840 camping out in the desert in say nineteen eighty four, 322 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:14,840 You look up at the night sky and you see 323 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,000 a Soviet Mid twenty one chasing a black triangular UFO. 324 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,879 Speaker 2: No wonder the alien stories took off. The reality was 325 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:22,919 arguably stranger. 326 00:15:23,159 --> 00:15:27,759 Speaker 1: The aliens were just classified aerodynamics. But Tona's mission isn't 327 00:15:27,799 --> 00:15:31,440 just historical. It's still very active, right under the Department 328 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:32,960 of Energy as well as the Air Force. 329 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,799 Speaker 2: Yes, that's a key part of its modern mission, nuclear 330 00:15:35,799 --> 00:15:37,600 weapons Stockhile's stewardship. 331 00:15:37,679 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: What does that mean exactly? 332 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 2: It means they do joint test assembly missions. They take 333 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,519 a real nuclear bomb, like a B sixty one gravity bomb, 334 00:15:45,799 --> 00:15:48,879 but they remove the ftle core, the plutonium pit. 335 00:15:49,039 --> 00:15:50,799 Speaker 1: Okay, so it can't go nuclear. 336 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: Correct, But everything else is live, the casing, the electronics, 337 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,840 the radar, the parachutes. They drop these dummy bombs from 338 00:15:57,879 --> 00:16:01,519 bombers to make sure that the web's non nuclear components 339 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,639 work perfectly, to make sure the bomb will go exactly 340 00:16:04,639 --> 00:16:06,960 where it's supposed to go, if it wherever needed. 341 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: So, if you're an amateur explorer and you wander past 342 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,480 the perimeter at TONOPA, you're not just risking getting arrested 343 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:13,679 by some CAMO dudes. 344 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: You're risking wandering into the designated drop zone for a 345 00:16:17,559 --> 00:16:21,360 practice nuclear bomb. The security there is it's not theatrical. 346 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,879 It's deadly serious because the work is deadly serious. 347 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,039 Speaker 1: It's the quiet professional to Area fifty one's flashy showmen. 348 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:29,679 Speaker 2: I think that's the perfect description. 349 00:16:29,879 --> 00:16:32,039 Speaker 1: Now, of course, Russia has its own counterpart to this, 350 00:16:32,279 --> 00:16:35,240 a place that combines the missile testing of Tonopa with 351 00:16:36,399 --> 00:16:38,559 some of the space age history of a cake canaveral, 352 00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:41,159 but with a much much darker origin. 353 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,519 Speaker 2: You have to be talking about Capustaennar. 354 00:16:43,039 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: Copyar, as it's known. This site, way out in the 355 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,440 asterisk In Oblast near the Volga River is basically the 356 00:16:49,519 --> 00:16:53,320 cradle of the entire Soviet rocketree program. But it started 357 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:54,240 with stolen goods. 358 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,879 Speaker 2: It started with Nazi technology. Just as the Americans had 359 00:16:57,919 --> 00:17:01,600 Operation paper Clip to grab German signientists like Werner von Braun, 360 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,200 the Soviets had Operation Osooviekam. 361 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 1: And they rounded up every German rocket scientists and V 362 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,119 two rocket component they could find and ship them all east. 363 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 2: Shipped them to Kapusignar. So in nineteen forty six, this 364 00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:18,039 remote patch of step became, for all intents and purposes, 365 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:22,079 a German V two launch site operated by the Soviet Union. 366 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: And this is where they reverse engineered that technology to 367 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,960 build their first ballistic missile, the R one. This is 368 00:17:27,039 --> 00:17:30,200 literally ground zero for both the Soviet space program and 369 00:17:30,279 --> 00:17:32,440 the Soviet nuclear missile program. 370 00:17:32,559 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 2: And we can't forget the dogs, the space dogs. 371 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,799 Speaker 1: Before Laika the first dog in orbit, there were other pioneers. 372 00:17:39,519 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 2: Desert and Siegen. They were launched on suborbital flights from 373 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,480 Kapustignar way back in nineteen fifty one. They were the 374 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,319 first mammals to be successfully launched and recovered from such 375 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:50,200 a high altitude. 376 00:17:50,279 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: It's just amazing to think that humanity's first real steps 377 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,640 into the Cosmos began in these two secret desert locations, 378 00:17:57,839 --> 00:18:01,319 White Sands in the US and Kapustignar in Russia using 379 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:02,759 captured Nazi weapons. 380 00:18:03,079 --> 00:18:06,759 Speaker 2: The history is incredibly messy, but kPr has also developed 381 00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:09,680 this reputation, much like Area fifty one for being the 382 00:18:09,759 --> 00:18:11,000 Russian Rosswell. 383 00:18:10,799 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: Right, there are endless rumors and conspiracy theories about crashed 384 00:18:14,279 --> 00:18:18,200 UFOs reverse engineered alien tech, especially centered around to suppose 385 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,680 at underground complex there called ZIPCRE. 386 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 2: But honestly, when you look at the declassified history, the 387 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,839 reality of what happened a Kapustinar is far more frightening 388 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:28,000 than any alien story. 389 00:18:28,039 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: You're talking about the atmospheric nuclear. 390 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 2: Tests between nineteen fifty seven and nineteen sixty one, they 391 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,559 conducted a series of high altitude nuclear detonations right over 392 00:18:35,559 --> 00:18:38,599 the site. They were testing anti ballistic missile systems by 393 00:18:38,599 --> 00:18:41,119 trying to shoot down incoming rockets with nuclear. 394 00:18:40,799 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: Warheads, detonating nukes in the sky. 395 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,319 Speaker 2: Y Yes, and the radioactive fallout from those tests was 396 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,960 not well contained. They had to evacuate entire villages in 397 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,359 the surrounding area, turning the region into a permanent military 398 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:55,319 exclusion zone. 399 00:18:55,519 --> 00:18:58,519 Speaker 1: It's that recurring theme, isn't it. A government draws a 400 00:18:58,519 --> 00:19:02,119 circle on a map, declares everything inside it restricted, and 401 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,000 that land becomes a sacrificial altar for technological advancement, and 402 00:19:06,039 --> 00:19:06,680 it is still. 403 00:19:06,519 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 2: A very active, very restricted place. Capustinyara is where Russia 404 00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:13,480 tests some of its most modern systems, like the Escandalam 405 00:19:13,559 --> 00:19:17,400 tactical missiles and the topol miicbms. When at a no 406 00:19:17,519 --> 00:19:20,119 tema notice to air missions goes up over that part 407 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,880 of Russia, it means something very fast and very dangerous 408 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:23,480 is about to fly. 409 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 1: Okay, let's shift years a little. We've talked a lot 410 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,519 about hardware, missiles, stealth planes, reactors, but some of the 411 00:19:29,599 --> 00:19:33,319 darkest restricted places on Earth aren't designed to hide objects. 412 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,240 They're designed to hide people. 413 00:19:35,039 --> 00:19:38,039 Speaker 2: Specifically people the government wants to make disappear. 414 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,759 Speaker 1: The black sites, and the one that always stands out 415 00:19:39,799 --> 00:19:42,759 to me is Stairkaycuty in Poland. This story still gives 416 00:19:42,799 --> 00:19:45,079 me chills because it's so recent. This wasn't the Cold War, 417 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,200 this was in the two thousands, right in the heart 418 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:47,960 of modern Europe. 419 00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:51,079 Speaker 2: It completely challenges our assumptions about how liberal democracies are 420 00:19:51,079 --> 00:19:54,559 supposed to behave. Stair Keaycouti is a small village in 421 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,799 northeastern Poland. It's home to an intelligence training center, the 422 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,400 Orto dek Stanya Kadra Uyadu. 423 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,559 Speaker 1: A training center. It sounds so so banal, such a 424 00:20:05,559 --> 00:20:08,799 bland euphemism, but between two thousand and two and two 425 00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:10,960 thousand and three this base was not being used to 426 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:12,920 train Polish intelligence. 427 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: Cadets, not at all. A secluded section of that base, 428 00:20:15,759 --> 00:20:18,359 a private villa, really was handed over to the CIA 429 00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:22,200 in cooperation with Polish intelligence. They operated a secret detention 430 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,680 and interrogation facility there. Its internal code name was Quartz. 431 00:20:26,519 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 1: And this is where they brought some of the so 432 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,400 called high value detainees from the War on terror people 433 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,400 like Khalud Chik Mohammad, the alleged architect of nine to eleven, and. 434 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,039 Speaker 2: Abd al Rahim a Lashiri. They were flown into a 435 00:20:37,079 --> 00:20:42,440 nearby sleepy regional airport at Semone on unmarked CIA registered planes. 436 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: And those flight logs they were the smoking gun, weren't they. 437 00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:47,839 That's how investigators eventually broke the story. 438 00:20:48,079 --> 00:20:52,759 Speaker 2: They were planes registered to known CIA shell companies landing 439 00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:55,240 at this remote Polish airport in the middle of the night, 440 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,599 being met by vans with blacked out windows. You connect 441 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,559 the dot. The prisoners were taken straight to this villa 442 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:04,480 on the restricted military base. 443 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: The whole point of this, the legal concept, was to 444 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,920 create a place that was outside the law right. 445 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,319 Speaker 2: That was the entire goal. If you hold a prisoner 446 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,960 on US soil, they have rights under the Constitution, they 447 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,039 have a habeas corpus, they have a right to a lawyer. 448 00:21:17,519 --> 00:21:19,440 But if you hold them in a secret facility in 449 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,480 a Polish forest, a place that is technically under Polish 450 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,319 sovereignty but is operationally controlled by the US, you create 451 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,599 a legal vacuum, a black. 452 00:21:28,319 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: Hole, a gray zone where enhanced interrogation techniques, which many 453 00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:36,160 human rights groups define as torture could be used without 454 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:37,920 any judicial oversight. 455 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 2: And for years the Polish government flat out denied it. 456 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,480 They said it was impossible, a conspiracy theory. It took 457 00:21:44,559 --> 00:21:48,720 relentless work from investigative journalists and human rights groups and 458 00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:51,599 eventually a ruling from the European Court of Human Rights 459 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:52,759 to force the. 460 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: Truth out, and the court found that Poland was complicit, 461 00:21:56,319 --> 00:21:57,759 that they had allowed it to happen. 462 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: Yes, they ruled that Poland had violated the European Convention 463 00:22:01,599 --> 00:22:04,759 on Human Rights. It was a huge political scandal and 464 00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:06,920 a major blow to the country's reputation. 465 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: It's just such a stark example of how a restricted 466 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,559 place isn't just about fences and guards. It's about drawing 467 00:22:13,599 --> 00:22:15,839 a line on the ground and saying here here the 468 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:17,279 constitution does not apply. 469 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,519 Speaker 2: It is the deliberate suspension of the social contract within 470 00:22:20,559 --> 00:22:23,200 a very specific set of geographic coordinates. 471 00:22:23,319 --> 00:22:25,599 Speaker 1: That's a powerful way to put it. And that brings 472 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,680 us to another site that deals in the suspension of ethics, 473 00:22:28,759 --> 00:22:32,200 though this time ostensibly for defensive reasons. Let's talk about 474 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:33,599 port and down in the UK, the. 475 00:22:33,559 --> 00:22:36,519 Speaker 2: Defense Science and Technology Laboratory DSTL. 476 00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:39,599 Speaker 1: This place has been the absolute heart of British chemical 477 00:22:39,599 --> 00:22:43,400 and biological weapons research since nineteen sixteen. We are talking 478 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,200 about more than a century of dealing with the absolute 479 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,720 nastiest substances known to science. 480 00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 2: It was established in direct response to the German gas 481 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,279 attacks in World War One. The logic was simple and brutal. 482 00:22:56,079 --> 00:22:59,559 They are using chlorine and mustard gas against our troops. 483 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,200 We need to understand how to make it, how it works, 484 00:23:03,559 --> 00:23:05,119 and how to defend against it. 485 00:23:05,279 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: A grim but understandable motivation. But the history of the 486 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,519 testing there, especially the human testing, it's just so dark 487 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:13,000 it is. 488 00:23:13,319 --> 00:23:16,839 Speaker 2: Over the decades, thousands of British military personnel volunteered for 489 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,839 experiments at portin Down. They were often told they were 490 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,279 helping to find a cure for the common cold or 491 00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:24,000 testing new protective equipment, but. 492 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,839 Speaker 1: In reality they were sometimes being exposed to nerve agents 493 00:23:27,079 --> 00:23:27,880 in some cases. 494 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 2: Yes. The most infamous and tragic case is that of 495 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,319 Ronald Madison in nineteen fifty three. He was a twenty 496 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,440 year old Royal Air Force mechanic. He volunteered for what 497 00:23:36,519 --> 00:23:38,960 he thought was research to cure the common cold. He 498 00:23:39,039 --> 00:23:40,839 was offered a small payment and a three day. 499 00:23:40,759 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: Pass, And what does they do to him. 500 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 2: They dripped two hundred milligrams of pure seren nerve agent 501 00:23:46,759 --> 00:23:49,039 onto a piece of cloth that was taped to his arm. 502 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,160 My god, he died less than an hour later. It 503 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,319 was a horrific tragedy that was covered up for decades. 504 00:23:55,799 --> 00:23:59,519 The official cause of death was listed as misadventure. 505 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: It was until a new in quest in two thousand 506 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,039 and four that the truth came. 507 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,039 Speaker 2: Out right, and his was the most extreme case, but 508 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,720 thousands of other servicemen participated in these trials over the years, 509 00:24:10,039 --> 00:24:12,720 and many believe they suffered long term health effects as 510 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:13,279 a result. 511 00:24:13,519 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: The government's argument, i suppose, is always national defense. We 512 00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:19,079 need to test the gas mask, we need to develop 513 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,880 and test the antidotes, and you can't test an antidote 514 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,559 unless you expose someone to the poison. 515 00:24:23,799 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 2: That is the grim calculus of this kind of research. 516 00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:28,720 Port and Down is where the VX nerve agent was 517 00:24:28,839 --> 00:24:31,519 first synthesized in its British form. It's one of the 518 00:24:31,559 --> 00:24:35,759 handful of maximum containment laboratories on Earth that holds live 519 00:24:35,799 --> 00:24:38,640 samples of things like ebola, anthrax. 520 00:24:38,039 --> 00:24:40,799 Speaker 1: And the play like a biological library of everything that 521 00:24:40,839 --> 00:24:41,480 can kill us. 522 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 2: It is, but it's also a library of how to 523 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,519 save us. We have to be fair. They were the 524 00:24:46,519 --> 00:24:49,519 ones who were instrumental in identifying the Novachuk agent used 525 00:24:49,559 --> 00:24:53,079 in the Salisbury poisonings a few years ago. Their expertise 526 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:54,519 is what helped save lives. 527 00:24:54,559 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 1: So it's a paradox. 528 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 2: It's the ultimate paradox of biodefense. You have to keep 529 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,599 the monster locked in the basement in order to learn 530 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,319 how to fight it if it ever gets out. 531 00:25:02,519 --> 00:25:04,319 Speaker 1: I suppose I'd rather they have the monster in a 532 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,880 secure basement than have nobody know how to fight it. 533 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,400 But looking at the history of accidents and the ethical breaches, 534 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,640 it requires an enormous amount of public trust. 535 00:25:13,799 --> 00:25:17,839 Speaker 2: In secrecy, by its very nature, erodes trust. That's the catch. 536 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:18,279 Twenty two. 537 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: Let's shift from biological threats to economic ones. We tend 538 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,519 to think of these restricted zones as military installations, but 539 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,880 money requires just as much protection, and sometimes the pursuit 540 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,599 of money creates the most bizarre restricted zones of all. 541 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: You must be talking about North Korea's Office thirty nine. 542 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,599 Speaker 1: Room thirty nine. It sounds so boring like a record's 543 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,079 office with a DMV, but this is arguably the most 544 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,920 successful and sophisticated state sponsored criminal enterprise and modern history. 545 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 2: It was established by Kim Il sung back in the 546 00:25:48,559 --> 00:25:52,680 late nineteen seventies. The mission was brutally simple that Kim 547 00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:56,680 dynasty needs hard foreign currency to survive. The country is 548 00:25:56,759 --> 00:25:59,720 under crippling sanctions, so find a way to get the 549 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:00,759 money anyway. 550 00:26:00,839 --> 00:26:03,839 Speaker 1: And they took the anyway part to heart. The portfolio 551 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,680 of Room thirty nine based on desector testimony and intelligence reports, 552 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,680 it just reads like a criminal wrap sheet. 553 00:26:10,039 --> 00:26:12,799 Speaker 2: It does drug trafficking. They became one of the world's 554 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:18,400 largest producers of high purity methamphetamine, insurance fraud, smuggling, endangered species, 555 00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:19,680 weapons sales. 556 00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: But their most legendary operation has to be the counterfeiting. 557 00:26:22,759 --> 00:26:25,839 Speaker 2: Oh the supernote, It's the stuff of legend in intelligence circles. 558 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,799 Speaker 1: These weren't just photocopies of hundred dollars bills, not even close. 559 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,519 Speaker 2: These were masterpieces. North Korea somehow acquired the same kind 560 00:26:32,519 --> 00:26:35,759 of intallio printing presses used by the US Bureau of 561 00:26:35,799 --> 00:26:39,400 Engraving and Printing. They sourced the same specific blend of 562 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,839 cotton linen paper. They even replicated the microscopic security fibers 563 00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:45,200 and the color shifting inc. 564 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: The fakes were so good that for years even the 565 00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:51,720 US Secret Service, the world's foremost experts on this, could 566 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:52,799 barely tell the difference. 567 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 2: It was a form of economic warfare. You flood the 568 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,200 global market with perfect fakes. You undermined confidence in the 569 00:26:59,319 --> 00:27:02,200 US dollar, and every one hundred dollars BILLI you print 570 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,039 is pure profit for the regime. 571 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,799 Speaker 1: But that was the old game. Cash is heavy, it's 572 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,880 risky to move, So Room thirty nine has evolved. Now 573 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,200 the big money is digital. 574 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 2: Now it's cybercrime. The Lazarus Group is winely believed to 575 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,440 be the hacking arm of Room thirty. 576 00:27:17,319 --> 00:27:20,799 Speaker 1: Nine, and their most famous operation was the Bangladesh bank 577 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,680 heist in twenty sixteen. That story is just it's like 578 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:25,640 something out of a movie. 579 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,079 Speaker 2: It's unbelievable. They used malware to hack into the Swift 580 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,000 International banking system. They were minutes away from electronically transferring 581 00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:35,799 yar than one billion dollars out of the Federal Reserve 582 00:27:35,799 --> 00:27:36,680 Bank of New York. 583 00:27:36,519 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: A billion dollars, and the only reason they failed. 584 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,599 Speaker 2: A combination of dumb luck and a spelling mistake. A 585 00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:45,799 connecting bank noticed a typo in one of the transfer requests. 586 00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:49,400 They spelled foundation as Fandation, which raised a red flag 587 00:27:49,599 --> 00:27:51,839 in a printer error at the Bangladesh Bank stopped them 588 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,880 from seeing some of the confirmation messages, so. 589 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: They only got away with about eighty one million dollars. 590 00:27:56,559 --> 00:28:01,319 Speaker 2: Only eighty one million, which is still a catastrophic security 591 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,079 breach and a massive windfall for a regime that's cut 592 00:28:05,079 --> 00:28:06,319 off from the global economy. 593 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: And that money goes where straight to the top. 594 00:28:08,559 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 2: It funds the nuclear weapons program, and it pays for 595 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,160 the luxury goods, the Kognak, the Mercedes benzes that keep 596 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,680 the elite loyal to the Kim family. Room thirty nine 597 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,880 is the financial lung that allows the whole system to 598 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:20,480 keep breathing. 599 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: And we don't even know for sure where it is. 600 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:27,319 It's likely some heavily guarded, nondescript building in Pyongyang filled 601 00:28:27,319 --> 00:28:30,200 with hackers and accountants who are essentially cooking the books 602 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:31,200 for an entire nation. 603 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 2: It's a true black box of international finance. 604 00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: Now, speaking of black boxes and secret formulas, let's look 605 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,839 at the complete flip side of that coin. A restricted 606 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,839 place designed not to fund a criminal state, but to 607 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,079 protect a massive, legitimate corporate fortune. 608 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 2: The Coca Cola vault in Atlanta. 609 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: I love that this is on the list because it 610 00:28:50,279 --> 00:28:53,960 feels so trivial compared to nerve gas and nuclear bunkers. 611 00:28:54,279 --> 00:28:56,240 But when you look at the mechanics of the secrecy, 612 00:28:56,279 --> 00:28:57,400 they are identical. 613 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 2: Intellectual property is a form of power, and the secret 614 00:29:01,039 --> 00:29:03,880 formula for Coca Cola is one of the most valuable 615 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,039 and most fiercely guarded trade secrets in history. 616 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: So here's a basic question, why keep it a secret 617 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,559 at all? Why not just patent it? 618 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 2: Ah, that's the key. If you patent formula, you have 619 00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:17,359 to publish exactly what's in it. That's the trade off, 620 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,799 and patents expire usually after twenty years. After that, anyone 621 00:29:22,839 --> 00:29:24,720 could legally make generic. 622 00:29:24,319 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: Coke, but a trade secret. 623 00:29:26,079 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 2: A trade secret can last forever as long as you 624 00:29:28,279 --> 00:29:29,160 can keep the secret. 625 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: So they built a literal fortress around a piece of paper. 626 00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 2: Well, the vaults you can see at the World of 627 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,480 Coca Cola Museum is partly for show. It's great marketing, 628 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,240 but the security protocols behind it are very real. The 629 00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:43,160 key principle is split knowledge. 630 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: Explain what that means. 631 00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:47,759 Speaker 2: It means no single person on earth knows the entire formula. 632 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,759 It's compartmentalized. One senior executive might know the recipe for 633 00:29:51,799 --> 00:29:55,319 the merchandise seven X flavor component, which is the heart 634 00:29:55,359 --> 00:29:58,240 of the drink, while a different executive knows the precise 635 00:29:58,519 --> 00:30:01,359 mixing methodology and ingredient ratios. 636 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,799 Speaker 1: And they're never allowed to travel on the same plane. 637 00:30:02,839 --> 00:30:06,079 Speaker 2: Right, that's the legend. Yes, it's the same protocol that 638 00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:09,480 the US President and vice president follow, and it extends 639 00:30:09,519 --> 00:30:12,839 to the manufacturing process. The concentrate is made in different stages. 640 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,160 The components are labeled with code names, not ingredients. The 641 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,599 workers who are physically pouring the syrups don't know exactly 642 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,759 what they're pouring, just that it's component A and component B. 643 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: It's just fascinating. They've effectively turned a recipe for a 644 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,680 soft drink into a state secret with national security level 645 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:30,759 clearance protocols. 646 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,759 Speaker 2: When your brand equity is worth north of eighty billion dollars, 647 00:30:36,119 --> 00:30:39,039 you could argue it is a matter of corporate national security. 648 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: Okay, for our last section, let's zoom ount. We've looked 649 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:47,200 at individuals, site spaces, bunkers, labs, vaults, but sometimes an 650 00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:50,640 entire region can become a restricted place. A line on 651 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,680 a map that defines who is in and who is out. 652 00:30:53,759 --> 00:30:56,359 Speaker 2: You're talking about the Russian border security zones exactly. 653 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,039 Speaker 1: Most of us, you know, we think of a border 654 00:30:58,079 --> 00:30:59,720 as a thin line. You walk up to it, you 655 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,960 show you passport out of booth, you cross it. But 656 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,039 that's not how it works. In Russia. The border isn't 657 00:31:04,039 --> 00:31:04,480 a line. 658 00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:08,119 Speaker 2: It's a zone, a very deep zone. It's a buffer 659 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:11,960 controlled by the FSB Border Service. In some places, this 660 00:31:12,079 --> 00:31:16,000 zone can extend for miles, even dozens of miles inland 661 00:31:16,039 --> 00:31:19,839 from the actual border. We're talking about millions of hectares 662 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,279 of landforests, tundra, coastline, even entire. 663 00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:26,119 Speaker 1: Villages, and people live their whole lives inside these zones. 664 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,079 Speaker 2: They do, but their lives are intensely regulated. If you 665 00:31:30,119 --> 00:31:32,359 live in Moscow and you want to visit your aunt 666 00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:35,680 who lives in a border zone village near Finland, you 667 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,000 can't just drive there. You need to apply for a 668 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:43,200 special FSB pass, weeks sometimes months in advance, explaining exactly 669 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,559 who you are, why you're going, and for how long. 670 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,240 And if you're a foreigner, good luck, you need a 671 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,160 very very compelling reason. It's designed to create a state 672 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,319 of constant surveillance. If you're found inside the zone without 673 00:31:54,359 --> 00:31:57,519 the right paperwork, you are automatically a suspect. You could 674 00:31:57,559 --> 00:31:59,920 be a smuggler, a spy, or someone trying to flee. 675 00:31:59,799 --> 00:32:02,519 Speaker 1: It feels like a holdover from the Soviet mentality, where 676 00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:04,960 the border wasn't just about keeping enemies out, but also 677 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,599 about keeping their own citizens in. 678 00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: It is absolutely that it's a psychological barrier as much 679 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,920 as it is a physical one. It reinforces the idea 680 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,559 of the state's absolute control over movement. 681 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,599 Speaker 1: Which brings us, i think, to our final stop. The 682 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,480 original restricted zone, the historical prototype for all of these 683 00:32:21,519 --> 00:32:22,599 other places. 684 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 2: The Forbidden City in Beijing. 685 00:32:23,759 --> 00:32:26,759 Speaker 1: We think of it now as this massive, beautiful museum, 686 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,440 but for five hundred years this was the most exclusive, 687 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,440 most heavily restricted piece of real estate on the entire planet, 688 00:32:34,519 --> 00:32:35,240 the Great Within. 689 00:32:35,519 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: From fourteen twenty until the fall of the Last Emperor 690 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,559 in nineteen twelve, this was considered the literal center of 691 00:32:41,599 --> 00:32:45,759 the universe, and the rules of access were lethal. If 692 00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:47,880 you were a commoner and you so much as stepped 693 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,480 across the threshold of the reading gate without permission, instant execution, 694 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,160 and the secrecy inside the walls was just as intense. 695 00:32:54,559 --> 00:32:57,559 The thousands of Eunich servants and concubines, many of them 696 00:32:57,599 --> 00:33:00,400 live their entire lives within those red walls, that were 697 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,640 born there, or entered as children, and died there as 698 00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:05,960 old men and women, having never once seen the outside world. 699 00:33:06,279 --> 00:33:09,359 Was a gilded cage on an epic scale. 700 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: And even today as a tourist attraction that gets millions 701 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:17,200 of visitors. Vast sections of the complex remain sealed off. 702 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,799 Speaker 2: The unopened areas, and that's what's so fascinating. There are 703 00:33:20,839 --> 00:33:23,799 nearly one thousand buildings and almost ten thousand rooms in 704 00:33:23,799 --> 00:33:27,519 the Forbidden City. Only a fraction are open to the public. 705 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,119 Speaker 1: What's in those closed off sections. 706 00:33:29,799 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 2: All sorts of things. Some are storage areas for the 707 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,200 Palace Museum's archives, just filled with dusty, priceless artifacts that 708 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,799 haven't been seen in a century. Some are residential quarters 709 00:33:39,799 --> 00:33:43,119 that are simply too fragile to withstand foot traffic. Others 710 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,160 are just left as they were sealed history, so. 711 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,759 Speaker 1: You can't buy a ticket to the real hidden history. 712 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,200 Only conservation workers and specially proved researchers ever get past 713 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:55,119 those locked doors. 714 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: Exactly. It preserves the mystique as long as some doors 715 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,359 remain closed, the full power and secrecy of the place 716 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:02,240 remains intact. 717 00:34:02,559 --> 00:34:05,599 Speaker 1: So we've toured the world of the forbidden. We've been 718 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,119 under the Greenland ice, inside Russian mountains, through Polish black 719 00:34:09,119 --> 00:34:10,360 sites and corporate vaults. 720 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 2: It's a heavy list, to say the least. 721 00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: What's the final synthesis here, What's the thread that ties 722 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,599 all of these wildly different places together. 723 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 2: For me, it comes back to the inherent fragility of 724 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,679 secrecy itself. Think about it. Camp Sentry failed because they 725 00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:29,320 couldn't control the ice. The Polish black sites were exposed 726 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,000 because you can't hide flight logs forever. Even the Coca 727 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,440 Cola vault is only one disgruntled employee away from having 728 00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:39,280 its secrets posted on the Internet. 729 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,119 Speaker 1: It seems like the more energy and resources you pour 730 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,519 into hiding something, the more explosive the revelation is when 731 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:47,760 it finally inevitably gets out. 732 00:34:48,039 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 2: Entropy applies to information, to secrets decay. They want to 733 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:52,719 be free, and that. 734 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: I think leads to the really scary question, doesn't it. 735 00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:57,960 We know about all these places now because they failed, 736 00:34:58,039 --> 00:35:01,320 or they were leaked, or they became obsolete, declassify. 737 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 2: Their secrets of the past. 738 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: So what are the restricted places we don't know about? 739 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,280 What is the Project ice Worm of twenty twenty six? 740 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,840 What is being built right now today that we won't 741 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,639 find out about for another fifty years. 742 00:35:13,039 --> 00:35:17,159 Speaker 2: Wow, that's a deep question. If I had to guess, 743 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,719 I'd say the next generation of restricted places aren't being 744 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,920 built under the ice or inside mountains where then they're 745 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,079 being built in servi farms in Utah. They exist inside 746 00:35:27,119 --> 00:35:30,920 the code of autonomous drone swarms. The new restricted zones 747 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,280 aren't just physical anymore. They're digital and algorithmic. And the 748 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,599 terrifying part is we're probably walking through them every single 749 00:35:38,639 --> 00:35:41,000 day on our phones and laptops and we don't even 750 00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:42,400 realize the fences are there. 751 00:35:42,639 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: That is a thought that is definitely going to keep 752 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:44,960 me up tonight. 753 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:45,599 Speaker 2: Sorry about that. 754 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,320 Speaker 1: No, No, it's why we do this. So we want 755 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,119 to hear from you listening. Which of these threads pulled 756 00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:54,639 at you the most. Is it the slow motion environmental 757 00:35:54,679 --> 00:35:57,119 time bomb ticking away in Greenland. 758 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 2: Or the legal black hole of the CIA. 759 00:35:59,039 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 1: Black sites, or maybe just the surreal idea that a 760 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,400 soda company runs tighter operational security than most governments. 761 00:36:05,599 --> 00:36:09,199 Speaker 2: I'm still stuck on Yamatal the idea of survival city. 762 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,400 That level of preparation implies a deep, profound level of 763 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,880 pessimism about the future that I'm just not sure I'm 764 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:16,679 ready to accept. 765 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: Let us know your thoughts in the comments. Thanks for 766 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,440 listening to Thrilling Threads. Keep digging and watch where you stepped.