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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 6: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 7: Good evening. In this notorious USA collection, Death of a Cheerleader,
Speaker 7: New York Times bestselling author Greg Olsen and true crime
Speaker 7: journalist Kevin M. Sullivan write about notorious crimes in the
Speaker 7: Bluegrass State. In a scene right out of Hitchcock's rear window,
Speaker 7: a young woman vanishes from a beach on a summer day,
Speaker 7: and a neighbor views the abduction through his telescope. A
Speaker 7: newly wed disposes of his bride but doesn't know what
Speaker 7: to do with her head. Selling tickets at a drive
Speaker 7: in movie theater proves deadly, and a parent's worst nightmare
Speaker 7: becomes reality their young daughter disappears from a sleepover. The
Speaker 7: focus of the program this evening is Death of a
Speaker 7: Cheerleader with my special guests, journalist and author Kevin M. Sullivan.
Speaker 7: Welcome back to the program, and thank you for greeing
Speaker 7: this interview. Kevin M. Sullivan.
Speaker 2: Thanks Dan, it's good to be back, and I expect
Speaker 2: we're going to have a good time tonight because the
Speaker 2: cases we'll be talking about are very bizarre homicides and
Speaker 2: really little known homicides outside of the state of Kentucky
Speaker 2: that is until now.
Speaker 7: Yes, it's Civil incredibook. It's an incredible collection, and it
Speaker 7: is strange to realize that it comes from just one
Speaker 7: little state and a state that's maybe not so notorious
Speaker 7: really compared to some of the other states of the
Speaker 7: United States. So let's get right into this and very
Speaker 7: interesting too. Each title has got sort of a tongue
Speaker 7: in cheek sometimes too, where titles like A Day at
Speaker 7: the Beach. Yeah, first off, you know, other than give
Speaker 7: us your Kentucky background for those people that don't know,
Speaker 7: and why it was important for you to what was
Speaker 7: it about these particular cases that you wanted to assemble
Speaker 7: for this book, Why these cases and why Kentucky tell
Speaker 7: us about that?
Speaker 2: Well, occasionally I would hear about a case. A Day
Speaker 2: at the Beach was a good example of one, and
Speaker 2: this particular case, you know, when this girl and her
Speaker 2: name was Heather Tigue, which he disappeared from a beach
Speaker 2: along the Ohio River at Henderson, Kentucky. There was a
Speaker 2: little bit of the paper about it, but not much.
Speaker 2: But the circumstances of it were very strange. Of course,
Speaker 2: that piqued my interest. Immediately. I was working on something else,
Speaker 2: but I thought, I need to find out about the case.
Speaker 2: And then there was another case that I included in
Speaker 2: this book, Death of a Cheerleader, and that's the title
Speaker 2: of the book, about a girl that was murdered here
Speaker 2: in Kentucky. So these cases came about. I mean I
Speaker 2: would hear them, sometimes, I would catalog things, and then
Speaker 2: sometimes and then after I reached the place where I knew,
Speaker 2: I thought there are enough strange cases out of Kentucky
Speaker 2: that I can compile them together. That's when I started
Speaker 2: doing research. And of the cases, some of them were
Speaker 2: more recent and some of them were from a long
Speaker 2: time ago, and those will get into later. They were
Speaker 2: very interesting as much as how do you get the information?
Speaker 2: Where do you go to get it? It's going to
Speaker 2: be in the archives somewhere of a police department, But
Speaker 2: you got to have dates, you got to have names,
Speaker 2: and when there are long ago cases, sometimes all you
Speaker 2: carry is an idea of what happened, what was reported
Speaker 2: at the time. The boy it's something. Having to attract
Speaker 2: this stuff down. I was very fortunate. I've always been
Speaker 2: good at doing research and getting to things, so I
Speaker 2: never had a whole lot of problems of getting to it.
Speaker 2: But it was time consuming, so that it was my
Speaker 2: idea to put together something from the state of Kentucky
Speaker 2: from all these bizarre cases, and every state added me.
Speaker 2: But some of the cases that and in this particular book,
Speaker 2: I've only included six, but I've compiled many cases and
Speaker 2: I'll have another book coming out later from while Do
Speaker 2: Press having to do with other Kentucky murders. And I
Speaker 2: used to also write for a paper here in Kentucky,
Speaker 2: uh and that paper was called Snitch, and it was
Speaker 2: a weekly print newspaper at one point in time that
Speaker 2: was published in five states, and in Kentucky it was
Speaker 2: published in both Lexington and Louisville. Wasn't on staff, but
Speaker 2: I was a contributing writer, and some of these cases
Speaker 2: would be published in Snitch. So there was a lot
Speaker 2: of material out there, even from a state with you know,
Speaker 2: somewhere around maybe a little bit less than four million people.
Speaker 2: So yeah, there's just some real, you know, bizarre stuff
Speaker 2: that's happened. And then, like I say, everything has them.
Speaker 2: And for people who want to take the time to
Speaker 2: track those strange cases down over years, they can come
Speaker 2: up with some really wild stuff. Mm hm.
Speaker 7: Now I racked my brain to say what we talked
Speaker 7: about just briefly before the program, and I said, what
Speaker 7: would really tie all these cases together? What real theme
Speaker 7: is there? And there really isn't any other than there
Speaker 7: from Kentucky. But also there's these stories, and I want
Speaker 7: to warn anybody that's gonna, you know, listen to this
Speaker 7: that really the thing that ties these things together is
Speaker 7: they're right out of the Twilight Zone. If people remember
Speaker 7: what that is in terms of never mind twists and turns.
Speaker 7: These are truly you've really managed to come up with
Speaker 7: some strange and bizarre cases. So let's get to this one.
Speaker 7: And for those that really don't know, because we do
Speaker 7: have a younger some people are younger that listen to
Speaker 7: this program, and some people are older like me. But
Speaker 7: anyway I wanted to ask was for those that don't
Speaker 7: know the Alfred Hitchcock rear window reference, let's talk about
Speaker 7: this case and the witness and the entire case itself
Speaker 7: with Heather Tigue one day at this Newbird Beach in Henderson.
Speaker 7: So tell us a little bit about this and a
Speaker 7: little bit about Tim Waltall, who an interesting character in this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting it's a really interesting case. This
Speaker 2: is one case where there had been nothing written about
Speaker 2: it outside of some squibs and some newspapers. I had
Speaker 2: to piece the entire story together from interviews of Kentucky
Speaker 2: State Police officers and the course from Tim Walthall and
Speaker 2: his wife Karen. Heather Tigue was a pretty girl and
Speaker 2: she had you know, she was just like anybody, and
Speaker 2: she was you know, she was in her I can't remember.
Speaker 2: I think she was like twenty two, twenty three. I'd
Speaker 2: have to check. It's been so many years since I've
Speaker 2: actually written the case. I've been I've done so many
Speaker 2: things since then. But she was just a young girl.
Speaker 2: She was so kind of trying to find her way
Speaker 2: in life. But she took a Saturday, a really nice
Speaker 2: day in August and went to a place called Newburgh Beach,
Speaker 2: which was at the Ohio River at Henderson, Kentucky, and
Speaker 2: of course across the river is Indiana. Well, this beach
Speaker 2: would occasionally be the spot for people to come. You know,
Speaker 2: kids would come and you know, drink beer at night,
Speaker 2: and some people had got involved with drugs. They would
Speaker 2: come up and a lot of those activities occurred at night.
Speaker 2: On the day she was there, there were the spot
Speaker 2: that she went to. She had to actually park her
Speaker 2: car along an access road that was shrouded in trees.
Speaker 2: And when she parked her car, there were other cars
Speaker 2: that either were parked there or would soon be parked there.
Speaker 2: And there were some kids riding some ATVs mall terrain
Speaker 2: vehicles about a half a mile upstream from her, and
Speaker 2: they would occasionally come down near to her, and I'm
Speaker 2: sure that they never even saw her. Well, what she did,
Speaker 2: she got a chase lounge, and she got her cooler
Speaker 2: and her cow, and she went and placed the chase
Speaker 2: lounge at the bottom, right at the water's edge so
Speaker 2: she could dangle her feet in it. Now across the river.
Speaker 2: I say this in the book because she would have
Speaker 2: noticed the homes across across the river. It's like a
Speaker 2: half a mile two quarters of a mile. She really
Speaker 2: wouldn't have paid a whole lot of attention to them.
Speaker 2: And they're really nice homes, but if there's nobody out
Speaker 2: there and nobody can see you, it's very private. She
Speaker 2: wouldn't paid a lot of attention to them. Whatever was
Speaker 2: this man named Tim Waltle, He used to he had
Speaker 2: a telescope that was in his living room and they
Speaker 2: had a large window there, and he used to love
Speaker 2: to look at the wild lines, and when people weren't around,
Speaker 2: there would be deer and he might have seen coorities,
Speaker 2: but there was a lot of wildlife and he enjoyed
Speaker 2: looking at that. Well, this was a Saturday. He has
Speaker 2: wife had been out working in the yard, and so
Speaker 2: when she went to fix them some hamburgers, he came
Speaker 2: in from the yard and sat down and he saw
Speaker 2: he was looking through there, and he happened to spot
Speaker 2: this woman that was laying there on the beach, and
Speaker 2: he would have even seen her except he was he
Speaker 2: had seen a kid coming down on an ATV, and
Speaker 2: as he got near to her, he spotted her, and
Speaker 2: he happened to mention to his wife, there there's there's
Speaker 2: a lady laying out there all alone. And he thought
Speaker 2: it was kind of odd, because, like I said, at
Speaker 2: nighttime anyway, there were in Savory characters that would come
Speaker 2: around there, but this was a beautiful day. Well, he
Speaker 2: had only been looking at her a few minutes, but
Speaker 2: he he spot on a man crouching in the woods
Speaker 2: looking at her, and his first thought was, well, maybe
Speaker 2: he knows her. And then the guy's stands up and
Speaker 2: he takes and she can't see him. She's unbuttoned the
Speaker 2: back of her top, her bathing suit top. It's a
Speaker 2: two piece so that she would get an even tan,
Speaker 2: and she was laying face down on the chase lounds.
Speaker 2: So he starts bounding hand of the woods, takes about
Speaker 2: ten steps and stops, and then he takes another. Finally
Speaker 2: he gets to her, and Walfall said to me, he said,
Speaker 2: you know, I thought for a second maybe it's her
Speaker 2: boy's hand. Then he saw her, saw him bend down
Speaker 2: and took his hand, and he wrapped her hair around
Speaker 2: his wrists and arm, and then he saw that the
Speaker 2: man had a gun in his hand. Well, the girl
Speaker 2: was soon abducted and he yanked her up off the
Speaker 2: chair and get and there's nobody seeing this but Tim Walfall,
Speaker 2: And within moments he had got her out of sight
Speaker 2: and they were gone. So he calls the as I
Speaker 2: recalled the Indiana State Police, they said, well, that's not
Speaker 2: our jurisdiction. So they transferred in the Kentucky State Police.
Speaker 2: And you know a lot of times operators will they'll
Speaker 2: take their time, and they wanted from He said, I
Speaker 2: gotta talk to somebody now. A's a girl that's been abducted.
Speaker 2: So we got a hold of a man that the
Speaker 2: commander of posts I believed he was sixteen of the
Speaker 2: Kentucky State Police. I got him at David Osborne and
Speaker 2: he showed him in. So that's how that case began,
Speaker 2: and that I'm going to give you time. They asked questions,
Speaker 2: but that that girl has never been located. But over
Speaker 2: a period of days, a suspect appeared because of some
Speaker 2: anonymous calls, and then he had been a suspect in
Speaker 2: some other things. It's never been proven that he's done this,
Speaker 2: but his name was Martin and he called him Marty Dill.
Speaker 2: And there's the police believe there's a lot of circumstantial
Speaker 2: evidence against him. So whoever got this girl, they got
Speaker 2: her out of the way. Osborne, you know, he got
Speaker 2: his men together and man, they just so I did it.
Speaker 2: They got to that uh, well, I'm sorry, I had
Speaker 2: to back up a little bit. As he was as
Speaker 2: Osborne was gathering his men, he said, I think one
Speaker 2: of my troopers is over there. It just came from
Speaker 2: Newburg beak and and and then this was nineteen ninety five,
Speaker 2: he said, And he has a stop bone, so he said,
Speaker 2: so he said, I'm uh uh, I guess he had
Speaker 2: him call him. So uh he called him, and Tim
Speaker 2: couldn't see his patrol car approaching, but he said, I
Speaker 2: saw a plume of dust coming up over the trees,
Speaker 2: and I knew that was him. And within a few
Speaker 2: minutes to compet parked his car just about where Heather's
Speaker 2: car was, and we're other cars there too. Came down
Speaker 2: through there, and Osborne is talking on the phone, and
Speaker 2: he's talking on his cell phone to to I mean Osborne.
Speaker 2: He Tim Malthall and and the police officer are talking
Speaker 2: and Tim is actually showing him where to go on
Speaker 2: the beach so he doesn't miss the girl's stuff. And
Speaker 2: then he said, oh, I see it, I've got it.
Speaker 2: And within no time Osborne came down there, and so
Speaker 2: then then that you know happened, and they stopped a
Speaker 2: couple of cars, but this guy was long gone. Now,
Speaker 2: there was a man that was videotaping that morning because
Speaker 2: the ATVs I mentioned there were a lot of kids
Speaker 2: that were tearing up land using those vehicles, and uh
Speaker 2: so a farmer had hired this guy to videotape and
Speaker 2: he had accidentally left his video tape, his video re
Speaker 2: her on and pasted it on the dashboard and he
Speaker 2: passed down this this this access road, and he called
Speaker 2: Heather's car and he actually caught her and did this
Speaker 2: was I guess this is? Yeah, this that morning when
Speaker 2: she was getting out of the car, and there was
Speaker 2: also a red and white Bronco that was parked there.
Speaker 2: And they believe whoever was driving that Bronco is the
Speaker 2: one who abducted Heather t. And it turns out that
Speaker 2: they put out you know, uh, you know the what's
Speaker 2: the thing, the facial things, you know Commas description of
Speaker 2: the Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they put that out and
Speaker 2: they got a call like a couple of days later
Speaker 2: and said there's a guy that pits the description. It's
Speaker 2: an anonymous call. He said, his name is Marvin Dill.
Speaker 2: They call him Marty, and he drives a red and
Speaker 2: white broncle. Well, this guy, you know, so they start
Speaker 2: the wheels kind of moving in this direction, right. They
Speaker 2: also obtained information that this Dell fella uh is also
Speaker 2: and this all happened very quickly, had also been a
Speaker 2: suspect in a sexual attack on a woman a number
Speaker 2: of months early in a cemetery in Kentucky. Issue was
Speaker 2: cutting grass, and he was a suspect in this other
Speaker 2: attack because there was there were anonymous calls there as well.
Speaker 7: And I'm sorry, go ahead, sorry did but did Tim?
Speaker 7: What was when Tim did the composite it? When he
Speaker 7: was given the photo of this deal Old Marty Dill,
Speaker 7: what did he then say?
Speaker 2: Well, here's what he said about that, and and and
Speaker 2: he set up the uh, the the telescope for me.
Speaker 2: I was able to look through it when I was
Speaker 2: there interview on that too. You know, you can see everything.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really clear. You can so this kind
Speaker 2: an abducted head of tea. He said. I could see
Speaker 2: the body shape, the protruding belly. I could see the
Speaker 2: shorts heat war very clearly.
Speaker 7: He said.
Speaker 2: The only thing I couldn't see clearly, and I couldn't
Speaker 2: understand this was his face. At some point it looked
Speaker 2: like he had a beard of something, he said, but
Speaker 2: it wasn't clear, but I could see everything else. Now.
Speaker 2: He couldn't find any answer for that, and he told
Speaker 2: the police that, but he said everything else was clear. Well, Bill,
Speaker 2: who was a suspect in a sexual in this sexual
Speaker 2: assault in a cemetery uh in Kentucky a number of
Speaker 2: months before. And you know, the girl could not completely
Speaker 2: identify him there either, because the guy that wore the
Speaker 2: guy that did that to her had like a fish
Speaker 2: netting thing on his face, like a hatn't like some
Speaker 2: fish net and so it acted yeah, yeah, yeah, So
Speaker 2: she wasn't quite sure. She couldn't say for a certainty. Well,
Speaker 2: it turns out this still fella before the abduction of
Speaker 2: Heather Thieves had also gotten in trouble in Evansville, Indiana,
Speaker 2: for he had been circling a place called Haini's Corner
Speaker 2: and it appeared that he was trying to pick up girls,
Speaker 2: and so he was pulled over by the police in Evansville.
Speaker 2: And the first thing the officer did, he said, you
Speaker 2: have any weapons on you? He said no, and he said, well,
Speaker 2: I needed to get out of your truck, and he did,
Speaker 2: and they did a check of the seat and under
Speaker 2: the seat, and they found two pistols and then they
Speaker 2: checked and found a knife in his pocket. So he
Speaker 2: was immediately under arrest. But the interesting thing was, and
Speaker 2: I talked to the detective, the evens the detective about this,
Speaker 2: but they found in his pocket duct tape, and they
Speaker 2: found a rope and a shovel and plastic bags in
Speaker 2: his car. And I asked the detective about that, and
Speaker 2: here's what he said to me. He said, well, you know,
Speaker 2: I thought this guy was gonna take a girl, and
Speaker 2: if we didn't arrest him, he's going to kill somebody
Speaker 2: today because here, you know, like the friend, he's lying
Speaker 2: about weapons, he's circling Haiti's corner, he's trying to pick
Speaker 2: up girls. He's got duct tape on him, he's got rope,
Speaker 2: he's got a shovel, he's got plastic bags. I felt
Speaker 2: like he's going to kill somebody today. So that's what
Speaker 2: he told me. That's what it looked like. That's I'm
Speaker 2: sure that's what it looked like to the patrol officers.
Speaker 2: So he made bail at court. They'd coming up and
Speaker 2: when he left Indiana he would never step but back
Speaker 2: in Indiana again, he got back to Kentucky and then
Speaker 2: this other stuff happens. But when everything's and this is
Speaker 2: very curious because there's no hard evidence against Bill, but
Speaker 2: there's a ton of circumstantial evidence inasmuch as there's people
Speaker 2: calling and reporting him. There is the body type that
Speaker 2: Walthall saw when Walthall, when all this was over and
Speaker 2: he got the view Deill, he could see that it
Speaker 2: was the same, and there were some other circumstances as
Speaker 2: well well. All this happened over a period of about
Speaker 2: four days where it really started coming down on Bill,
Speaker 2: I think, and I had to check the book, but
Speaker 2: I think they got it. The five anonymous calls from
Speaker 2: different people about about Martyville and the possibility of him
Speaker 2: being involved in the abduction of Edity. So the police,
Speaker 2: you know, got a warrant, and before they went out
Speaker 2: to his property, they got a call from Dell's attorneys.
Speaker 2: Sadil was threatening suicide. He had put his wife and
Speaker 2: child off of the land. He lived on land about
Speaker 2: two acres that had been deeded to him from his
Speaker 2: father father owned about twenty two acres and he needed
Speaker 2: an over of years before there's a couple of acres
Speaker 2: to his son, and I think he had a trailer
Speaker 2: and he and his wife and his child limber. So
Speaker 2: the attorney said, he's threatened to kill himself and he
Speaker 2: told his wife. I'm looking at ten to twenty and
Speaker 2: I'm not going. Well, that's part of the substantial evidence
Speaker 2: against them. This guy is showing all the signs of
Speaker 2: having done something very bad. I mean, if Bill had
Speaker 2: not in their minds, if Bill had not been involved
Speaker 2: with this, why would he be putting his wife and
Speaker 2: daughter of property making statements like I'm looking at end,
Speaker 2: I'm looking at I'm sorry, I'm looking at twenty of
Speaker 2: the life and I'm not going if he hadn't done
Speaker 2: something terrible. Oh Osborne, who was at the helm of this,
Speaker 2: he went very slowly with They got the warm.
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Speaker 2: They sent men ahead of even the warrant to make
Speaker 2: sure that he didn't leave. They had already been told
Speaker 2: by the attorney that the bronco is on the back
Speaker 2: portion of the property. Somebody had said ye had been
Speaker 2: hiding it, and so they went out there and kill
Speaker 2: wouldn't come out of this trailer. His spot was out
Speaker 2: there withining his uncle was out there with hing. His
Speaker 2: uncle had been talking to police, and his father came
Speaker 2: out and his uncle went back in. And his uncle
Speaker 2: had only been in this trailer for a few minutes
Speaker 2: when he got a gunshot, and the uncle ran out
Speaker 2: screaming he you know, he shot himself and everybody. And
Speaker 2: then then then you know, some people ran the other way,
Speaker 2: the people that were just there, but Osborne and everybody
Speaker 2: else ran into the trailer. And Bill had shot himself
Speaker 2: in the head with probably a twenty two caliber pistol
Speaker 2: and he expired soon after that. So this all happened
Speaker 2: late in the evening. So Walthall got a phone call
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night and he said, uh,
Speaker 2: Marvin Dill's dead. I was one told Walfall that Dyl's dead,
Speaker 2: and he said, I'd like you to take a look
Speaker 2: at the body, and Walkow said I will. He said,
Speaker 2: I'll have one of the patrol officers come over and kid,
Speaker 2: and he had some lady patrol officer. She came over
Speaker 2: and got him. But before he got off the phone,
Speaker 2: Walthall I asked him, he said, did Dale say anything
Speaker 2: about other said no, said nothing to anybody who just
Speaker 2: killed himself. So the officer drives him over to the
Speaker 2: funeral home and the medical examiner was, I think he
Speaker 2: had already performed the autopsy on Bill. He looked at
Speaker 2: the body type, everything that he had described to Osborne.
Speaker 2: According to Osborne, was fulfilled in Dil's body type the
Speaker 2: way he was. Now. It's not hard evidence, but they
Speaker 2: were satisfied. So the patrol officer said, are you sure
Speaker 2: that this is the man you saw through the telescope?
Speaker 2: He said yes. She said, are you one hundred percent sure?
Speaker 2: He said, how can anybody be one hundred percent sure
Speaker 2: of anything? But yes? And I remember Walthall telling me
Speaker 2: that when he heard that he was a suspect in
Speaker 2: this rape, in this cemetery war where the person who
Speaker 2: did this war a fish net, you know, net like
Speaker 2: a mosquito net across the face. He said, that was
Speaker 2: why I had trouble seeing the face. So I say
Speaker 2: in the story that all we know for sure, and
Speaker 2: I name a number of things off about this is
Speaker 2: that you know, she's she's gone, she's dead, and for
Speaker 2: someone known reason, he called himself before he could be
Speaker 2: questioned by the police. So it's a case that's never
Speaker 2: going anywhere. You know, he walthough even and he helped
Speaker 2: Heather's mother for about the years, you know, this calendar business,
Speaker 2: and he had the money to do it, and he
Speaker 2: organized searchers and paid for those. He hired several psychics.
Speaker 2: Nothing came herd that he thought something was going to
Speaker 2: come out at one point it didn't. But he did
Speaker 2: everything that he could and they've never found this girl. Well,
Speaker 2: what's interesting is that, you know, in most cases these abductions,
Speaker 2: they say that the victims are good within silver hours.
Speaker 2: I mean that's not always the rule, of course, but
Speaker 2: a lot of times they are. I will say this.
Speaker 2: They when oze I had forgotten to mention this because
Speaker 2: he was the only person that saw the killer, even
Speaker 2: if he didn't get the greatest look. When Osbourne got
Speaker 2: to the beach that day, both couldn't stand just standing
Speaker 2: there anymore. He just couldn't take it just talking over
Speaker 2: the phone, so he got in his boat. A neighbor
Speaker 2: went with him and he went across the river and
Speaker 2: then Osborne they walked around to where there was like
Speaker 2: a sandburm some that was blocking and this person who
Speaker 2: abducted the other to get taken her that way and
Speaker 2: she went out of sight. Well, when they went to
Speaker 2: that area where they had to have gone, where they
Speaker 2: were no longer in his view from across to her,
Speaker 2: they said that the sand was very gouged up in
Speaker 2: many places where they were struggling, and you know, her
Speaker 2: feet were digging in and he was maybe losing his
Speaker 2: balance because he had a gun on her, but he
Speaker 2: didn't shoot her there, but he was wasting no time
Speaker 2: with what he wanted to do because he had ripped
Speaker 2: off her bottoms there. So however, he transported her conscious
Speaker 2: or unconscious to the vehicle. Whoever did this to her,
Speaker 2: she was already nude, and of course he whoever this was,
Speaker 2: had to take her to his car and take a
Speaker 2: chance on being seen. They had scoured that area, they
Speaker 2: could not find her remains, and I can't imagine whoever
Speaker 2: did this, for example, raping her and killing her within
Speaker 2: two or three hundred yards of there and then during
Speaker 2: the body I just don't think that would have happened. Besides,
Speaker 2: there was a vehicle seen to be leaving soon afterwards,
Speaker 2: and awarding to one witness, it was that red and
Speaker 2: white Bronco, So it looks like that, you know, they
Speaker 2: told me at the at the State Police over there
Speaker 2: when I interviewed him and they take it, I taped it.
Speaker 2: There was about, you know, eight of them in there,
Speaker 2: six to eight of them patrol mem maybe a detective
Speaker 2: or two. And within at Osborne, I was able to
Speaker 2: my research to come up with some material that surprised them.
Speaker 2: And asked me how I got that information. I said,
Speaker 2: by interviewing people. They said, well, that has to be
Speaker 2: because it was not in our reports. But I identified
Speaker 2: that they know, this girl that lived through the cemetery attack,
Speaker 2: knows what kind of pistol he had, and I believe
Speaker 2: it was a silver one silver revolver. I believe. I
Speaker 2: had to check the book. But the two weapons that
Speaker 2: still had on him in Evansville were a blue steel
Speaker 2: one was I think guitar. I swowed something else and
Speaker 2: I think that they might have been both automatics, but
Speaker 2: they were not silver. But I believe the gun that
Speaker 2: Walfall saw, I had to check the look again that
Speaker 2: was also silver. Anyway, there was a few things that
Speaker 2: came up with and I also learned the name of
Speaker 2: his boyfriend, who incidentally was supposed to meet her later
Speaker 2: that day at the beach. Of course, you know if
Speaker 2: he showed up and I never talked to him. There
Speaker 2: was a just a just a whole party of police
Speaker 2: by that time. But what was interesting is that when
Speaker 2: the news cruise showed up and started filming and there's
Speaker 2: Osborne standing with Walfall, he told Walfall, he said, you
Speaker 2: need to go back to your home. You're the only
Speaker 2: person that's seen this individual, and it's going to be
Speaker 2: all over the news. So we'd rather you go back home,
Speaker 2: and we don't want this guy searching you out so
Speaker 2: that you'll become a second victim. But most of these
Speaker 2: men who kill women, they're afraid of and they're not
Speaker 2: going to bother that. They're too busy bothering women. He
Speaker 2: that as it may, he didn't want any undue trouble
Speaker 2: coming to Walfall. But it's a very very strange case
Speaker 2: with no and it's completely open. Officially, the case is
Speaker 2: still open. But all the police officer said me, that's official.
Speaker 2: We all know who did it. That was their statement,
Speaker 2: and you know, I can read between the lines. It's
Speaker 2: a close case. It's like an OJ thing. When they
Speaker 2: lost the case against OJ, the LAPD didn't go looking
Speaker 2: for the cole Browns killer, it didn't happen. So in
Speaker 2: their minds it's a case like that. But like I say,
Speaker 2: it's circumstantial evidence that it's sure is a terrible thing.
Speaker 2: And so what would have cause Dell to kill himself?
Speaker 2: What would have caused dil to say I'm looking at
Speaker 2: twenty to life and I'm not going. So that's what
Speaker 2: we're left with.
Speaker 7: Was there really did you find any evidence that the
Speaker 7: police acted untowards in terms of making threat based on
Speaker 7: that criminal sexual background that he had, in the circumstantial
Speaker 7: evidence that they thought they really had, including the Red
Speaker 7: Bronco and the videotape of the Red Bronco, could they
Speaker 7: have pushed him into suicide or no?
Speaker 2: Well, no, they were real delicate. Now, something did happen.
Speaker 2: They had their lights on, the trailer had gone on
Speaker 2: and off a couple of times, and there were some
Speaker 2: people that later said that was like black ops or
Speaker 2: whatever that the police were doing. But Osborne told me,
Speaker 2: he said, you wouldn't have done that. Listen. Osborne told me,
Speaker 2: he said, you know, we had the warrant. We could
Speaker 2: have gone on the property, knocked on the door and
Speaker 2: said we're coming in. They did not do that they
Speaker 2: waited office property, and then Osborne was way back from
Speaker 2: the trailer, ended up with some of these other officers
Speaker 2: talking to Dyl's father. So there was no threatening stuff
Speaker 2: going on. Were taking their time when you have a warrant,
Speaker 2: and you know they could have pickn on one of
Speaker 2: those things in Basketdora. Instead we're coming in guns blazing,
Speaker 2: not firing, but Bill pointed a deal. They chose not
Speaker 2: to do that. So some people think that the police
Speaker 2: caused this, but it didn't. And I think what caused
Speaker 2: it is is that whatever was bothering dial he didn't
Speaker 2: want to talk about anything about Newburg Beach or dis
Speaker 2: missing girl. And again you got to read between the lines.
Speaker 2: If he thought it was a parking ticket, He's not
Speaker 2: going to send a piece of lead through his head.
Speaker 2: So that's why he did it now, and I'm sure
Speaker 2: his wife understands why he did it. She had asked
Speaker 2: him if he had been to Newburgh Beach once these
Speaker 2: calls started coming to anything started eating up, and I
Speaker 2: can't remember. He may have denied it. Now. I spoke
Speaker 2: with Detective Lanny Allen, who went to see this. You know,
Speaker 2: when he became a suspect in this attack on this
Speaker 2: woman in the cemetery. He said, you know, he said
Speaker 2: his body fit the description. He already knew about the vision.
Speaker 2: Now she couldn't quite see all the face, but his
Speaker 2: body tie fit the subscription of what the what the
Speaker 2: lady gave him. Now, he took some polaroids of Dill
Speaker 2: and Bill, you know, did not object to that, and
Speaker 2: he when he showed it to her, she said, I
Speaker 2: can't really say for sure, which was strange because aster
Speaker 2: Bill killed himself and his picture showed up in the paper.
Speaker 2: She said, I don't know why. I said, I couldn't
Speaker 2: identify him from the polaroids, because that's the guy, and
Speaker 2: I've got the report. And in Lanny Allen's report, he said,
Speaker 2: after he said this, the suspect in this case, meaning
Speaker 2: the cemetery attack, took his life as officers were trying
Speaker 2: to serve warrants on his property. And you know, this
Speaker 2: case is closed. So in Lanny Allen's mind, there is
Speaker 2: no doubt who attacked the woman in the cemetery. In
Speaker 2: the Kentucky State Police, all these officers that worked the case,
Speaker 2: there is no doubt in their minds who killed Heather t.
Speaker 2: They just can't come out and say it. And the
Speaker 2: people that arrested him in Indiana, Listen, if you notice
Speaker 2: whoever did these things, sexual attack in the cemetery, the
Speaker 2: woman was allowed to go, whoever did it? Arrest in Utah?
Speaker 2: I mean you, Thomas to think about the funny case
Speaker 2: arrest in Evansville had to do with there's a shovel,
Speaker 2: there's the rope, there's a duct date. Who knows why
Speaker 2: did he have that? Well, let's read between the lines
Speaker 2: and so if that, you know, if that was for
Speaker 2: the various reasons, and if they're right about him having
Speaker 2: been involved in the Adite case, if they're right about that,
Speaker 2: I don't know. If they're right about that like they
Speaker 2: think they are, then it might have a bad end.
Speaker 2: All we know is she's gone and has never been found,
Speaker 2: and he killed himself because he didn't want to talk
Speaker 2: about her or Newburg Beach.
Speaker 7: What's that's most interesting is the What's it most interesting though, too,
Speaker 7: is the vivid portrayal of how the real haunted character
Speaker 7: in this is Tim waltole In. You know, it's he's
Speaker 7: going to carry this grave and you know.
Speaker 2: He's very affected by it. Yeah, Yeah, In fact, he
Speaker 2: doesn't use the I asked his wife recently about it.
Speaker 2: It's funny I never asked her back then, but I
Speaker 2: originally wrote this story. Probably she ten twelve years ago. No, No,
Speaker 2: I'd say about I'd say about fifteen years ago. And
Speaker 2: then I touched it up and had some new stuff
Speaker 2: to it. But I asked her about it a few
Speaker 2: months ago. She said, no, he put that up about
Speaker 2: four months after this happened. It kind of ruined it
Speaker 2: for him. You know, it's like you can't go home again.
Speaker 2: And he never expected to see that. And like I say,
Speaker 2: that's why I said, it was like it was just
Speaker 2: it was like something out of Alfred Ditchcock. You know
Speaker 2: the movie Rear Window that the guy sees from his window.
Speaker 2: He's laid up with a broken leg and he's in
Speaker 2: this department complexes. He's want to cross away from him.
Speaker 2: A murderer curs and so it's one of those deals
Speaker 2: and the only person that sees it is a guy
Speaker 2: sitting with a broken leg. And here, in Tim's case,
Speaker 2: he's just like, just think about it. If he wouldn't
Speaker 2: have seen this, nobody would. The only thing they thought
Speaker 2: is she's gone. They wouldn't know anything, and whoever did
Speaker 2: it would just be out there killing again.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and he has so many unanswered questions. It's not
Speaker 7: like he witnesses the murder. He just witnesses an abduction.
Speaker 7: Then he then he doesn't know anything.
Speaker 2: No, and where her body is only God knows because
Speaker 2: they had just done one search after another. And I
Speaker 2: mean that's the thing. If you go back to the
Speaker 2: Bundy case, as we've talked about, he said once people
Speaker 2: that Ibari had never been founded. If you take the
Speaker 2: time to bury, there's a good chance they'll never be found.
Speaker 2: If the found that they might be found accidentally. It's
Speaker 2: even sometimes when you leave bodies in rurle the most areas,
Speaker 2: the animals will take care of them and even the
Speaker 2: remains may never be found, maybe years before somebody comes
Speaker 2: across something that even resembles a human bone, or they
Speaker 2: may never But whatever happened to Heather Tigue, she was
Speaker 2: probably hastily buried. And you know, so that's just it.
Speaker 7: Now. I want to move on and just cover a
Speaker 7: few more stories and this incredible collection. Yeah, but I
Speaker 7: like the story. The next story that you have in
Speaker 7: the Valley Drive in Double Murders. This is a really
Speaker 7: tragic story, but again super twisted. So let's talk about that.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was eighteen years old when that happened, and I,
Speaker 2: you know, I was born and raised in Louisville, and
Speaker 2: I've been to the Valley Drive in many times. It
Speaker 2: is on the outskirts. It's gone now, but it's kind
Speaker 2: of like on the outskirts of Louisville along a road
Speaker 2: called Dixie Highway, which Dixie Highway leads from Louisville and
Speaker 2: goes all the way to Radcliffe and the Fort Knox
Speaker 2: and so. But this thing kind of fat out on
Speaker 2: the edge of Louisville. And this was one of the
Speaker 2: cases that was I didn't know where to get the information.
Speaker 2: I was talking to my friend who's now to Seas,
Speaker 2: James Matthew, who actually is the fellow that introduced me
Speaker 2: to Jerry Thompson. I got the bunding, you know, murders rolling.
Speaker 2: And I asked him one day, I said, do you
Speaker 2: remember this case where they had a couple of picke
Speaker 2: attackers abducted from a driving on different nights. He said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I do, And I couldn't remember the date. I wasn't
Speaker 2: sure and it was a June and it was June.
Speaker 2: Couldn't remember if it was seventy three or not. I
Speaker 2: wasn't sure. But there were some particulars that I didn't
Speaker 2: know about it, but he was able to remind me
Speaker 2: of some names. And then and then when I got
Speaker 2: those names and of like the killers, and I had
Speaker 2: a firm date and I was able to check some stuff.
Speaker 2: I went to the Jefferson County Police Department. And that
Speaker 2: was before Jefferson County and Louisville combined and now they're
Speaker 2: just Louisville Metro and yeah, and the Jefferson County Police
Speaker 2: Department they had trouble finding this in the archives. There
Speaker 2: had never been anything else written about this case. And
Speaker 2: so I got the file too that they finally located
Speaker 2: the file. And for those who read the story, it's
Speaker 2: really se real. There were these two losers and there's
Speaker 2: no death penalty at the time, so they've been sentenced
Speaker 2: to lives. But James FactCheck and Danny Lee Petrick and
Speaker 2: Petrick had already open people and you know, but up
Speaker 2: until this time, I don't think he had committed a murder.
Speaker 2: But the if everybody, of course, the younger people don't
Speaker 2: really understand drive ins. I mean, I sure they know
Speaker 2: something about them, because he used to be very, very popular,
Speaker 2: and many drive ins. You'd go into them a lot
Speaker 2: of times. The ticket booth would be a little bit
Speaker 2: down the gravel road and not connected to some of
Speaker 2: the main buildings, like what they sell popcorn and all
Speaker 2: that stuff. Right, And there was this really sweet girl
Speaker 2: she had she was in her senior year, Rita Robbins,
Speaker 2: And I got the case file, you know, you got
Speaker 2: you can't go over this stuff without thinking of the family,
Speaker 2: thinking of the parents. How terrible, terrible this was. When
Speaker 2: I originally wrote this, it was thirty years after A
Speaker 2: yeah this is published and snitched this story back in
Speaker 2: two thousand and three, and it it was, it was
Speaker 2: the lead article. And when I got the case file,
Speaker 2: and I, uh, because we're all the pictures of the uh,
Speaker 2: the pictures of the bodies being on the earth, and
Speaker 2: the pictures of these these two missed it, and how
Speaker 2: they were arrested and all that stuff. But there was
Speaker 2: a picture that was this is really said it was.
Speaker 2: It was it was her high school picture for the year,
Speaker 2: and it had I think Rita had just picked it
Speaker 2: up like the day or maybe maybe a few days before,
Speaker 2: and you know it, the pictures had just come out,
Speaker 2: and so when this happened and their daughter went missing,
Speaker 2: and that's what ultimate happened. And that's why I'll get
Speaker 2: to and to turn in one of these pictures to
Speaker 2: the police. And I recognized what other pictures was at
Speaker 2: the moment I saw it, but it's in the police property.
Speaker 2: It's part of the case style, so I was able
Speaker 2: to republish it. Uh, you know. But what happened was
Speaker 2: these two guys robbed and kidnapped this rider, John Robbins,
Speaker 2: from the ticket place one night. And it's very rural,
Speaker 2: and they pulled out of the gravel driveway and if
Speaker 2: you take a right, you're heading back into a lot
Speaker 2: of stuff and you'll ultimately go into the city of Louisville.
Speaker 2: You take a left, you're headed out into like within
Speaker 2: a couple of blocks, you're out of Jefferson County and
Speaker 2: you're in the next county. I think it's Bullock. And
Speaker 2: they took her to a secluded place and they counted up.
Speaker 2: You know, she was trying to play along with them.
Speaker 2: I don't think she I don't think she believed she
Speaker 2: was going to be murdered, and if it was left
Speaker 2: up to Patrick, she probably wouldn't have been murdered. They're
Speaker 2: both cycle paths. But after she and she was kind
Speaker 2: of they said, making a joke, but counting up the money,
Speaker 2: splitting the money between them, trying to do whatever she
Speaker 2: could not to upset them. And with that, sef Jack
Speaker 2: took her in the car, may her get undressed, and
Speaker 2: he raped her, and then he got out in the
Speaker 2: car and he said she's gonna be killed now, so
Speaker 2: miss It was sef Check's proclamation, if you will, that
Speaker 2: the girl should die, and he grants her with both
Speaker 2: his arms behind her arms and kept screaming, three or
Speaker 2: four times, kill her, kill her. Pilbooks and Patrick had
Speaker 2: this and there's a picture of it in the book,
Speaker 2: this really long knife, and he had carved a swastip,
Speaker 2: painted the swastika on her. He was in the Nazism.
Speaker 2: Is he just a little missfit and he stands her.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's like ten or twelve times,
Speaker 2: and the girl collapsed against the car, got blown in
Speaker 2: the car. It was killed right. Well, you know she's missing.
Speaker 2: Nobody knows.
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Speaker 2: Why she's missing? Some people think, well, maybe she just
Speaker 2: you know, took the money out of cash tor On left,
Speaker 2: But that didn't make any sense because her car was
Speaker 2: still sitting there. The purse was still sitting in the booth.
Speaker 2: It didn't make any sense. About two weeks later, Roll
Speaker 2: Shoemaker a soldier of Fort Knox. You know, it's not
Speaker 2: that far from Fort Knox. He used to work part
Speaker 2: time there, and in fact, he was getting ready to
Speaker 2: leave the military. He was, you know, I don't believe discharge.
Speaker 2: He was getting ready to have all that happened. He
Speaker 2: was going to move to Louisville. He's gonna keep working
Speaker 2: at the drive here, and then he was going to
Speaker 2: enroll at the University of Louisville, and he was ultimately
Speaker 2: one of an attorney. Well, two weeks later he disappears
Speaker 2: and it's the same too. They got him and they
Speaker 2: murdered him. He was very nervous that night, extremely nervous,
Speaker 2: very on edge, as if you know, some people get
Speaker 2: premonition sometimes that something bad is coming. I personally think
Speaker 2: that Shoemaker had that. You know, there was a woman
Speaker 2: that worked in a bag here in Louisville a number
Speaker 2: of years ago on channeli's lane here in Louisville, and
Speaker 2: she said she kept feeling for months, I need to
Speaker 2: leave this job. I need to leave this job. I
Speaker 2: need to transfer to another bank. I keep having a
Speaker 2: really bad feeling about me working here. She never did
Speaker 2: anything about it. The bank was robbed one day. One
Speaker 2: of the robbers hopped over where she was and shot
Speaker 2: her and killed her. Wow, these things come to people
Speaker 2: sometimes as warnings, and I think that, well, a shoemaker
Speaker 2: had a premonition that something was going to go wrong,
Speaker 2: and it did, and they murdered him as well. Now
Speaker 2: these people, you know, if you look at Patrick, he's
Speaker 2: covered in tattoos, He's just covered. He's got even upsecene
Speaker 2: words on his body. I mean, these guys are the
Speaker 2: dregs of society. Now, later, as they were captured again,
Speaker 2: there were people calling up and saying, look, there's a
Speaker 2: couple guys that were are boasting that they killed these
Speaker 2: two young people. And apparently some of the young people
Speaker 2: found out where shoemaker was and they had gone and
Speaker 2: dared the body if that's not strange, but hadn't yet
Speaker 2: called the police. And so these two brilliant people said
Speaker 2: check and Patrick, they say, well, you know, it was
Speaker 2: our plan to keep going back to the same location
Speaker 2: and keep abducting ticket pickers. So apparently they were working
Speaker 2: us up after two. Now it's interesting because when I
Speaker 2: got the police report, I'm reading through it right, and
Speaker 2: it actually goes it says at one point, it says
Speaker 2: they weren't sure if there was a foul play or not.
Speaker 2: They're still thinking that maybe she took off, maybe Shoemaker
Speaker 2: took off, and maybe they're together, and I'm thinking, hold
Speaker 2: the phone. And then as the report goes on a
Speaker 2: little bit, he said, but all this is speculation, he said,
Speaker 2: we must assume that foul play, you know, is a
Speaker 2: part of this until we know otherwise. I thought, well,
Speaker 2: thank god for that. I don't think I put that
Speaker 2: in a chapter. But that's how they're interesting. I found
Speaker 2: the report. If I was the detective on that case,
Speaker 2: I would have assumed there was foul play from the
Speaker 2: moment I saw the circumstances. I wouldn't have considered that
Speaker 2: anything else until evidence said otherwise. But listen, no matter
Speaker 2: what air searches they did or ground searches, nothing, So
Speaker 2: they start getting calls about these two misfits, and so
Speaker 2: they bring these guys in on some other charges. I
Speaker 2: think Patrick had an outstanding war so they brought him
Speaker 2: in and pretty soon they broke him down. It took
Speaker 2: a while, but they broke him down, and Patrick actually
Speaker 2: admitted to I believe it was the lead detective. He said,
Speaker 2: he shaw, and I've gotten in the book. I've got
Speaker 2: the quote from the detective. But he feels like that
Speaker 2: he felt bad about maybe having done these things, and
Speaker 2: that he needed to get the girl home so our
Speaker 2: parent's going to have a proper burial. And so, you know,
Speaker 2: when this thing was published in Snitch, you know, I
Speaker 2: always aware if there's any family members that are still around,
Speaker 2: how they're going to receive something. And there were some
Speaker 2: people that called. I got a call from the editor
Speaker 2: one day and he said, where did you get the
Speaker 2: picture of reader Joan Robinson. I said, I got it
Speaker 2: from the Jefferson County Police Department. It's a matter of
Speaker 2: public record now. He said, you did get it from
Speaker 2: the Jefferson County Police I said absolutely. He was concerned
Speaker 2: that I might have gotten it from somewhere else and
Speaker 2: published it without the permission of the family, because somebody
Speaker 2: apparently in the family was very upset. I said, I'm
Speaker 2: really sorry. They got a beef. They need to take
Speaker 2: it up with them because they never retrieved that photograph.
Speaker 2: It became part of the public record. So I said,
Speaker 2: they're not going to do any I told the editor.
Speaker 2: I said, there's not really anything anybody can do. But
Speaker 2: some people were sorry. Now, most people that read the
Speaker 2: article were glad to read the article because they nobody
Speaker 2: ever really knew the full story about it. These guys
Speaker 2: took a plea market. There was no trial. There are
Speaker 2: no transcripts there. There is typically the police file, and
Speaker 2: that's what I was able to get. Had had I
Speaker 2: not gotten the police file, this stuff would have gone
Speaker 2: down to the dust of history. I mean it was.
Speaker 2: They would have been forgotten except for little incidentals that
Speaker 2: there was once a driving here in lil Ar. Two
Speaker 2: people were taking the murder. But this is no lot
Speaker 2: out there on. So I've heard from a lot of
Speaker 2: people that remember that case. A lot of people knew
Speaker 2: the killers. They certainly knew Brida John Robbins, and not
Speaker 2: a lot of people except for those that were to
Speaker 2: drive in New Orleans Shoemaker, but came in in their
Speaker 2: lives just got stuffed out like that.
Speaker 9: And uh.
Speaker 2: Within this also, which you'll probably want to talk about,
Speaker 2: is the cheerleader one, which was really the toughest one
Speaker 2: for me to write. That's where I get into it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: what I want to do is follow the flow that
Speaker 2: you're in. So if you have any other questions about
Speaker 2: that or anything, I did you think I didn't couple
Speaker 2: on the driving killers the spiral away? You know, I'll
Speaker 2: add to it.
Speaker 8: Now.
Speaker 7: What I just wanted to ask with this last story was,
Speaker 7: you know, you talk about these these guys being losers.
Speaker 7: We're talking. How much money were we talking here? I
Speaker 7: don't want to say the number, but I got you
Speaker 7: to say the number. What kind of money were we
Speaker 7: talk when these masterminds were coming up with of all
Speaker 7: the places and what was there? Why why this place?
Speaker 7: Just because of the remote?
Speaker 2: Well, here's the deal. You know people that hunt other people,
Speaker 2: if they're smart, they won't always hunt in their area.
Speaker 2: These guys hunted in their area. They hunted and you
Speaker 2: know within miles of places that they would go to
Speaker 2: and frequent listen to Dixie Highway? Is you know this
Speaker 2: driving's rag off of it? I can't remember. I had
Speaker 2: a month or two before this. He had stamped some guy.
Speaker 2: He didn't kill him as he was robbing him. That too,
Speaker 2: was a long Dixie Highway, and so these guys are
Speaker 2: living their lives in this area and they're also committing
Speaker 2: crimes in the same area. They're not very bright individuals,
Speaker 2: but you know, a smart killer will go other places
Speaker 2: and not and conceal themselves, and they certainly won't talk
Speaker 2: about their murders. But these guys ran their mouths, so
Speaker 2: that's what really here. Again, the bodies were sequestered somewhere
Speaker 2: and buried in shallow grays. Had Petric and stepcheck Nott talked,
Speaker 2: they probably wouldn't have found the bodies, and they might
Speaker 2: not have found them. They might have been arrested for
Speaker 2: the murders later. But they ran their mouths. But they
Speaker 2: were working in so that's why they chose this drive in.
Speaker 2: I think they felt comfortable taking the ticket takers because
Speaker 2: they were all alone. And I think Rita was grabbed
Speaker 2: around eleven o'clock between eleven and eleven fifteen. The people
Speaker 2: that on the drive in their name was Hornsby and
Speaker 2: the wife I think she left around eleven or six,
Speaker 2: said she had to run home for Sumpie and she
Speaker 2: would be back. By the time she got back, Rita
Speaker 2: was gone, and one of the workers there had come
Speaker 2: down to the booth and giving Rita like a nice
Speaker 2: cold you know, seven up to drink, and that appeared
Speaker 2: to be untouched. So she disappeared very quickly and in Okay,
Speaker 2: here's the thing. Here's the police will tell you Trey
Speaker 2: has a gun on you get in the car. No,
Speaker 2: you run, Oh well they might shoot me. They're going
Speaker 2: to kill you if you get in the car. Yeah,
Speaker 2: let them fire. Let them not fire. Chances are if
Speaker 2: they hit you, they're going to wound you. But if
Speaker 2: you get in the car, you're dead. This is how
Speaker 2: this stuff worked. I guarantee you Ronald Shoemaker, would I've
Speaker 2: run along the gravel. They might have fired a shot
Speaker 2: at him, but they might have just got in the
Speaker 2: car and left. But when you get in the car,
Speaker 2: you are dead. But people get frightened, they don't know
Speaker 2: what to do. That's what Shoemaker did. That's what Rita did.
Speaker 2: So these guys, everything was going their way, and they're
Speaker 2: so brilliant that they thought, let's just keep coming back
Speaker 2: to the same drive in kind of like the guy
Speaker 2: that keeps coming back to the same store and robbing
Speaker 2: it over and over again. So I mean that's how
Speaker 2: they think.
Speaker 7: Yeah, incredible credible starting. And you know it's really the
Speaker 7: super sad aspect of it is that especially Rita, she's
Speaker 7: just been working at this job a few days. He's
Speaker 7: seventeen years old. I don't think he can get me innocent,
Speaker 7: sweet and innocent. And for a while though too they
Speaker 7: have to look in her background. Possibly he's involved in
Speaker 7: a robbery and there's or anything else because they have
Speaker 7: to take whatever they have in terms of ev and
Speaker 7: so thank god these losers did have a big mouth.
Speaker 2: Yes, because they would have killed again. And yeah, check
Speaker 2: Setcheck was the one who egged it on. And that's
Speaker 2: why I stay in the book. I had to provide
Speaker 2: the captions really for all the books I write. You know,
Speaker 2: he's it the right. It provides them usually and I
Speaker 2: talk about how and this is true. Septcheck liked to
Speaker 2: watch murders unfold, but he didn't want to do it.
Speaker 2: He liked to watch them and fold. He never killed
Speaker 2: any of these people. He had Tatrick kill them. And
Speaker 2: Tetric didn't rape the girl, but Septchak did. But Septcheck
Speaker 2: one of them. They're both cyclepaths. But you know, he
Speaker 2: was the one that egged Tetrick on to do this,
Speaker 2: and yeah, there's just really something now. Had the death penalty,
Speaker 2: of course, Kentucky's bad about putting people to death. I mean,
Speaker 2: we've got people going death for all, you know, thirty
Speaker 2: years here. I mean, we're almost as bad as California.
Speaker 2: But had the death penalty been in play, these guys,
Speaker 2: you know, they would have Old Spark, you would have
Speaker 2: you know, gotten them by now or maybe the Gray.
Speaker 2: But and believe me, these people need to be dead.
Speaker 2: They need to be under the soil and they don't
Speaker 2: need to be breathing air. That's just the way it
Speaker 2: is with these folks. But because the death penalty was
Speaker 2: on hiatus as it were, and we were in between things,
Speaker 2: there's nothing else they could do with them but give
Speaker 2: them life.
Speaker 7: Yeah. Absolutely, Now we talked about the Death of a
Speaker 7: Cheerleader and your other just for our audience. They're curious,
Speaker 7: they're they're curious. The other chapters that called The Mother's
Speaker 7: Love and which is alluded to in the synopsis, Doctor
Speaker 7: Strange and the Seventh Head, and then the Sleepover, which
Speaker 7: was also alluded to. But let's talk about, like you said,
Speaker 7: they're very, very difficult to write Death of a Cheerleader Uh,
Speaker 7: tell us about why what what? Why did this case
Speaker 7: uh interest you so much?
Speaker 2: What was the case itself?
Speaker 9: Yeah?
Speaker 2: It was a girl. Her name is Sarah Hanson from Greenville, Kentucky,
Speaker 2: and she's a She was a really sweet kid, a
Speaker 2: good kid. She was an honor student. She was in band.
Speaker 2: She was just a really really good girl, very active.
Speaker 2: She left her home one night, she to return a
Speaker 2: but to rent a video. She had a boyfriend, and
Speaker 2: her boyfriend was coming over that night, and he was
Speaker 2: very busy with stuff he was doing. This was, I
Speaker 2: guess a Saturday, and she had come with her. She
Speaker 2: was on a cheerleading team. She she had been involved
Speaker 2: in the competition. She'd come to Louisville and they won
Speaker 2: their competition here in Louisville, and they went back that night.
Speaker 2: So she wanted to watch a movie with her boyfriend.
Speaker 2: So she goes to a place called the Minute Mark
Speaker 2: in this little town, I want to say, sleepy down.
Speaker 2: A nice community, certainly not the place, I don't think.
Speaker 2: They had had a homicide in the city for about
Speaker 2: fourteen fifteen years and certainly nothing diabolical, you know, nothing
Speaker 2: like that which was about to happen. And she went
Speaker 2: to return this movie and just call it the way
Speaker 2: I think. But there was a guy in there, and
Speaker 2: this came out later, and he he saw her and
Speaker 2: he mentioned to somebody in there. He said, boy, but
Speaker 2: I like to have a piece of that. And he
Speaker 2: left the minute mark before she did. And there was
Speaker 2: one witness that said that she that this purpose witness said,
Speaker 2: I saw somebody crouching by Sarah Hanson's van, but when
Speaker 2: Sarah came out, apparently he wasn't right there. But I
Speaker 2: think Sarah may have because of the familiarity of where
Speaker 2: she was and she knew people in there, and it's
Speaker 2: a nice little town. She may have left the door
Speaker 2: unlocked and he got in the van. He got in
Speaker 2: the back of it, and when she comes out, she's abducted.
Speaker 2: And the murder. When the paper first reported on the murder, again,
Speaker 2: this is the thing where you know, I hear a
Speaker 2: newspaper report. They had it wrong on how she was killed,
Speaker 2: but they talked about how mirandas it was, it bothered
Speaker 2: me so much when I heard it, I thought, if
Speaker 2: I don't whether I write about it or not, I
Speaker 2: got to find out what happened to this girl. I
Speaker 2: just for my own self. I got to find out
Speaker 2: what happened to this girl and mine. So I started
Speaker 2: investigating the case, and I started making calls, and I
Speaker 2: talked to a couple officers from the department, and I
Speaker 2: was able to get the transcript oddly enough released to
Speaker 2: me because it was not yet a part of the
Speaker 2: public record, because he hasn't been put to death yet.
Speaker 2: But it was in the hands of his attorney, and
Speaker 2: this guy actually released it to me, and he let
Speaker 2: me go through the transcripts and I had some so
Speaker 2: I had these things. I had a lot of interviews.
Speaker 2: I was able to copy a lot of stuff, and
Speaker 2: I pieced everything together as to what happened. It's really
Speaker 2: if you read the chapter, it's almost like a moment
Speaker 2: by moment day. Now what bothered me is that, I mean,
Speaker 2: I've written a lot about murder, and I've you know,
Speaker 2: done the Bundy Murders, and if anybody's read my book,
Speaker 2: The Bundy Murders of Comprehensions History, I go into great
Speaker 2: detail as to what happened to his victims. And this
Speaker 2: is just the kind of sociopath psychopath that we're dealing with.
Speaker 2: But this particular murder really troubled me, and I really
Speaker 2: it's the only time this's ever happened to me. A
Speaker 2: couple of nights, I woke up in a cold sweat
Speaker 2: breathing r just a cold sweat, because it was on
Speaker 2: my mind, most troubling thing to write about this particular girl.
Speaker 2: And I won't go into great detail here because people
Speaker 2: read it, they'll understand the way this guy he took her.
Speaker 2: He forced her to drive to lose her in the lake,
Speaker 2: which was on the outskirts of town, and he attacked
Speaker 2: her with a box cutter, and he raped her on
Speaker 2: the back seat, and he cut her throat, but he
Speaker 2: did not kill her. It took a while for her
Speaker 2: to bleed out. She didn't lose consciousness, She didn't sever
Speaker 2: an artery. It was so bad that they matched the
Speaker 2: blood pattern from the neck on the front on the
Speaker 2: It was like a three seat van, I guess, and
Speaker 2: he had pushed her neck up against it as he
Speaker 2: raped it from behind. He tore her brawl, he tore
Speaker 2: her pants off, such physical fourth force. The blood pattern, well,
Speaker 2: she did not die for quite some time. You know,
Speaker 2: a number of I don't know, fifteen twenty minutes, I
Speaker 2: don't know the attack was over, he was dragging it
Speaker 2: to the lake. Finally, as he was dragging it to
Speaker 2: the lake, she finally. I don't know if she completely
Speaker 2: expired by the time he threw in the water, but
Speaker 2: I can't remember. I have to check my own books.
Speaker 2: She might have taken it from the breast in the water,
Speaker 2: she might have had some water in her lungs. I
Speaker 2: can't remember. It was the most horrible. It's one thing
Speaker 2: to be killed, it's another thing to be killed like that.
Speaker 2: And so you know, I wrote the story on it,
Speaker 2: and I remember interviewing this also was in Snitch and
Speaker 2: the story, the story I wrote is perfect. They sent
Speaker 2: somebody down there and interview a couple of people, and
Speaker 2: they got some information wrong when they went down there,
Speaker 2: but they didn't find that van for a couple of
Speaker 2: hours after searching for her. And when they send somebody
Speaker 2: down there, somebody told them all other family van in
Speaker 2: a few minutes. That's not true. I've spoken to the officer,
Speaker 2: Doug West, and West was a seasoned officer. He really
Speaker 2: didn't have a lot of homicides. You know, he's used
Speaker 2: to stuff. He's used to come it up on creepy
Speaker 2: scenes we're out looking for this girl. And Officer Harvey's out,
Speaker 2: the Officer West is out. Family members are out. And
Speaker 2: West told me, he said, you know, I thought I
Speaker 2: would go to the lake just to see, just to see.
Speaker 2: He said. As I rolled in, it's all dark, and
Speaker 2: I think it's around ten o'clock down, he says.
Speaker 7: I rolled in.
Speaker 2: My lights shine on the van ahead of me, and
Speaker 2: he said, I could see that the driver's side door
Speaker 2: was open and there was no life of anybody around.
Speaker 2: He said, you know, I've never had a problem with fear,
Speaker 2: he said, but I got to tell you that bothered me.
Speaker 2: He said, I could feel the hairs on the back
Speaker 2: of my neck standing up. So he got, you know,
Speaker 2: he pulled his he drew his service weapon, and he
Speaker 2: you know, which is wise because you don't know what's
Speaker 2: out there. And so as he approached the van, his
Speaker 2: lights are still in the van. He could see that
Speaker 2: there was a lot of blood on the side of
Speaker 2: the outside of the van. He also looked in, and
Speaker 2: when he looked into the van, he said, there's this
Speaker 2: blood everywhere. There's this blood everywhere. There's putting the back seat,
Speaker 2: there's blood in the front seat, and what I found
Speaker 2: out is that from the evidence, she fought him, even
Speaker 2: though her throat didn't be slice, even though her windpipe
Speaker 2: was sticking out, she fought him and tried to drive
Speaker 2: that van out of there, and that's why there's all
Speaker 2: this blood in the front seat area. Where she got
Speaker 2: the strength to do this, I don't know. And the
Speaker 2: blow on the outside of the van came from when
Speaker 2: she was taken and he was pulling her along the van.
Speaker 2: Maybe I think she might have even then tried to
Speaker 2: break away and he pulled her back. I don't know,
Speaker 2: but she was able to walk and be you know,
Speaker 2: it wasn't a full drag. She was trying the effort
Speaker 2: to go along. And then when Ulficer Harvey got there,
Speaker 2: he had West secure that Porslau the scene, and Harvey
Speaker 2: reported that after a while it was his drag marks.
Speaker 2: It had gone from two people walking or basically one
Speaker 2: with feet marks, you know, on the ground, stumbling whatever,
Speaker 2: to just drag marks. He was dragging a body and
Speaker 2: she still may not have been dead, but she was
Speaker 2: not able to resist her to do anything. And so yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's a it's the worst kind of murder that
Speaker 2: I've heard of. I mean, it's just it's just really bad.
Speaker 2: So anyway, when I was doing this, I don't normally
Speaker 2: bother the family, but it's a small town, and so
Speaker 2: I thought, you know, I kind of and maybe this
Speaker 2: was I would be naive, but I thought, maybe I
Speaker 2: owe it to the parents. I know they've heard about me.
Speaker 2: I know they've already heard about me. To call them
Speaker 2: up and just to introduce myself and see if they
Speaker 2: needed to ask me any questions. I've called one morning
Speaker 2: and she answered the phone, and she got her husband
Speaker 2: on the phone, and they were both on different phones,
Speaker 2: and we were talking about it, and I found out
Speaker 2: Then you feel so sorry for these people, because time
Speaker 2: doesn't heal stuff. It just doesn't. It just changes. And
Speaker 2: when this guy went to trial, they were only there.
Speaker 2: They did not go to the trial. They were only
Speaker 2: there two times for the preliminary hearing or whatever. When
Speaker 2: he was being arraigned, they were there, and maybe he'd
Speaker 2: open the other trial. They weren't there with the testimony,
Speaker 2: and they were there for when he was sentenced. But
Speaker 2: when I was talking to her, she thought, for a second,
Speaker 2: I was going to say something about information I had
Speaker 2: on my daughter. She said, no, no, no, don't tell me.
Speaker 2: I had no intention of doing that, but I learned
Speaker 2: from that, and I thought, you know what, unless something
Speaker 2: really happens to where I need to speak with a
Speaker 2: family member the future on future cases, I'm going to
Speaker 2: let this go because it was difficult for me. But
Speaker 2: I'm the one there, you know, trying to find information,
Speaker 2: so I wasn't thinking to me. But it was very
Speaker 2: difficult for them too. I felt very sorry for them.
Speaker 2: But that's the only case. And this was long before
Speaker 2: I talked to them that that woke me up in
Speaker 2: a cold sweat. It's it's just it's horrible anyway. Yeah,
Speaker 2: someone can can kill like that. It's just terrible that
Speaker 2: it's monstrous.
Speaker 7: Well, it's we've you know, I've inter reached so many people,
Speaker 7: read so many books where we have those kinds of people.
Speaker 7: And that's people might look at America and say, well, well,
Speaker 7: how can you have some of the laws that you
Speaker 7: have and death penalty? And it's because of some of
Speaker 7: these kinds of killers. I mean, it's not some people
Speaker 7: in politics.
Speaker 2: No, no, listen, I don't even I was on the
Speaker 2: Generation Why podcast, and that's and and and and that
Speaker 2: I debated the death penally with with with another guy
Speaker 2: and listen to death penalty very rarely stops. It isn't
Speaker 2: about preventing murder. It's not about that in my mind.
Speaker 2: It's about doing that which is right. And people do
Speaker 2: these heinous things, they need to go. But it's also
Speaker 2: about the family members. So many of these family members
Speaker 2: they can't move on until these people who slaughtered their
Speaker 2: loved one is dead. And the fellow, he's a realized guy.
Speaker 2: But the fellow I was debating, he kept thinking that
Speaker 2: was vengeance, and I kept saying, no, not vengeance. These
Speaker 2: people are so beyond anything like that. They're so changed
Speaker 2: as people, they just can't move on. So I'm a
Speaker 2: big believer in the death penalty for the victims and
Speaker 2: also because I think it's intrinsically the right thing to do. Okay,
Speaker 2: a guy kills his a guy for signing with his wife,
Speaker 2: does shit, he get the death enity. No guy gets
Speaker 2: a fight and kill somebody hits the death penalty. No
Speaker 2: kidnapping people, murdering diabolical stuff, yes, killing police officers yes.
Speaker 2: So there's mans and then there's Flaidel homicide. So you
Speaker 2: know there's there's there's first agree murder, so, but I
Speaker 2: hope we don't lose to that penalty, even though some
Speaker 2: states aren't carrying it out, because I think it's it's
Speaker 2: it's a good tool in the justice system. But again
Speaker 2: that's my opinion. A lot of people will disagree with that.
Speaker 7: Well, I did listen to Aaron and Justin and yourself
Speaker 7: and Tom Westcott discussed that.
Speaker 2: And it was like that for me. Hey, I think
Speaker 2: Tom's knights. I think we had a good lively time
Speaker 2: that night.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, it definitely was. I won't get into that
Speaker 7: because I have my own opinion and I and what
Speaker 7: what I I just will say and again I hopefully
Speaker 7: don't open up the debate because I've expressed my opinion.
Speaker 7: But you know what my problem is is that you
Speaker 7: really can't have a system in because because Canada, we
Speaker 7: don't have as I explained on another program, Pardon me
Speaker 7: he is that we really you really can't have a
Speaker 7: sense of justice or equality, we'll say equality, which has
Speaker 7: to be a cornerstone of justice. When you have one
Speaker 7: state doesn't have a death penalty and another state does,
Speaker 7: and one state enforces a death penalon and another one
Speaker 7: really doesn't, and the reason for some of them. Abandoning
Speaker 7: the death penalty is because of money, and you do have.
Speaker 7: Often it depends on how good your attorney is and
Speaker 7: if you've paid for your attorney, and there are as
Speaker 7: in Canada and in America there's advantages to paying for
Speaker 7: your lawyer and paying well for your lawyer as well.
Speaker 7: So again equality kind of goes out the window. I
Speaker 7: understand though, the sentiment. I understand the emotion. I understand
Speaker 7: where the victims might have the right to feel vengeance,
Speaker 7: whether it works or it's not right or anything.
Speaker 2: So I do understand, and especially yeah, it's not vengeance
Speaker 2: for them most of them. They're so changed, there's so
Speaker 2: beyond that they could have invengeds in the early stages.
Speaker 2: They're still beyond that. It's very difficult for them, the
Speaker 2: ones that I know about, it's very difficult for them
Speaker 2: to put it to bid while their killer is still breathing,
Speaker 2: sometimes talking about the case, sometimes taunting them. It's just
Speaker 2: for them. And as the states in the United States,
Speaker 2: that that's the beauty about the states. Some states can
Speaker 2: have it, some states can't. If killers want to kill
Speaker 2: in a state where they don't have it, and that's
Speaker 2: important to them. Maybe that's what they need to do.
Speaker 2: But you know, I think the moral implication of what
Speaker 2: these people do. I just personally believe, And there's a
Speaker 2: lot of people that believe like me, there's a lot
Speaker 2: of people that don't. I don't care whether one state
Speaker 2: does or it doesn't. I don't care if some people
Speaker 2: can are good attorney and some can't. When the evidence
Speaker 2: of these types of murders is overwhelming, I don't care.
Speaker 2: Those people need to go and listen. I feel I
Speaker 2: felt the same way since I was sixteen seventeen years old.
Speaker 2: People that are that that Theodore Bundy needed to go.
Speaker 2: Overwhelming evidence. The clown guy, you know, killed thirty three boys.
Speaker 2: He doesn't need to be drawing breath. These people need
Speaker 2: to go. The world is a much better place when
Speaker 2: these people depart. So morally, I think it's a good thing.
Speaker 2: We may not have it always until people can say, well,
Speaker 2: you know, believe me. Sometimes Bundy had good attorneys. Bundy,
Speaker 2: you know, he just kind of torpedo himself. He could
Speaker 2: have gotten life. It was all to him. But the
Speaker 2: thing of it is, when they're like this, I just
Speaker 2: think they need to go. But like I say, a
Speaker 2: lot of people don't don't feel that way. It's been
Speaker 2: so settled with me. I'm fifty nine years old. Stuff
Speaker 2: was settled when I was a teenager anyway. But this
Speaker 2: book the one story that's really we talked about my
Speaker 2: mother's love. I actually lived next door to these people.
Speaker 2: They lived in my neighborhood. And what is really interesting
Speaker 2: about the Margaret's Science, Now Margaret Science, we left that home.
Speaker 2: If you look in the book, if you look at
Speaker 2: the picture, it shows her their home. But if you
Speaker 2: look at the house right next to it, that was
Speaker 2: our house. Wow. And both homes were in the picture.
Speaker 2: And they moved in about I don't know, eight or
Speaker 2: ten months before we moved out and moved a couple
Speaker 2: of miles away. But I remember Margaret and I didn't
Speaker 2: really talk. I remember seeing her. And she has an
Speaker 2: older son that was not that did not die, and daughter,
Speaker 2: and I remember them. And then and then there was
Speaker 2: the two youngest children that passed away that they were
Speaker 2: not born yet, so I didn't know them well. But
Speaker 2: then when this thing happened, you know, uh, we had
Speaker 2: sold the house. My parents had sold our house to
Speaker 2: the lady that's now in the chapter. And the kids
Speaker 2: ran when they couldn't get in the house, when they
Speaker 2: couldn't get in the bathroom door where their mother was.
Speaker 9: Uh.
Speaker 2: And of course they didn't know that their two siblings
Speaker 2: were upstairs because she had killed two of them with
Speaker 2: with a with a butcher with a US Marine K
Speaker 2: barneye that she had purchased. They ran next door to
Speaker 2: the lady that bought my parents' house. And when I
Speaker 2: went years years later to do this story and gather information,
Speaker 2: she was still there. So she let us go through
Speaker 2: the house and I asked her about it, and it
Speaker 2: produced pain in her even even then. And it's a
Speaker 2: quiet neighborhood. It's a really nice neighborhood to this day.
Speaker 2: It's very very peaceful and quiet and very nice. Not
Speaker 2: the kind of thing would you ever have. And the
Speaker 2: woman obviously had mental problems, and her husband was a
Speaker 2: computer salesman and he was out. He was just a
Speaker 2: normal guy, and the family was exposed at all normal
Speaker 2: and they were planning on taking a trip together. But
Speaker 2: she was plotting and planning and nobody knew it because
Speaker 2: I don't think they could ever figure out where she
Speaker 2: got this nice and it came in a box, so
Speaker 2: she bought it new, and back then the only place
Speaker 2: to really get this was to get in your car.
Speaker 2: She'd want to take a right, go up Lowell at
Speaker 2: Bartstown Road, and go straight down Bartstown Road, take a
Speaker 2: right seventy eight miles down into downtown Louisville and visit
Speaker 2: the Army Navy shops, which I don't even know if
Speaker 2: they have any more of these any now. And you
Speaker 2: can get these cabron iles another place. Back then, that's
Speaker 2: really the only place that you could go. So she
Speaker 2: must have done that a number of weeks before then
Speaker 2: and was planning this, and then she picked the morning
Speaker 2: and one of these two children just savage. And of
Speaker 2: course I've got pictures of the crime scene. I couldn't
Speaker 2: publish anything. It's graphic, but and I wouldn't but anyway,
Speaker 2: it's just it's one of those things that walks a
Speaker 2: neighborhood and it doesn't get over. It just takes years.
Speaker 2: And then doctor Strange and the severed head, which is
Speaker 2: a very strange kid, came bag. His name is Strange.
Speaker 2: Come on, I can't make this. I can't make this
Speaker 2: stuff up. That's hysterical. But you know he's a research scientist,
Speaker 2: right he's got a bunch of letters after his name,
Speaker 2: decides to go into the ministry. You had a first
Speaker 2: wife died. He comes to a church in Louisville, well
Speaker 2: I known church in Louisa ninth and zero meets a
Speaker 2: lady named Castleing O'Hara. They fall madly in love, and
Speaker 2: he's got a couple of kids and beautiful wedding that's
Speaker 2: really nice, and you know, the proverbial marriage made in heaven.
Speaker 2: I had to do these punspan and you have to
Speaker 2: predure me it. But within two years she's dead and
Speaker 2: he's charged with her murder, and you know, if you
Speaker 2: get into the story, it's just it's exceedingly strange. And
Speaker 2: what he ends up doing. He decapitates her with an
Speaker 2: axe and buries her head in the in their vegetable garden,
Speaker 2: and enlists his son to help him do this, not
Speaker 2: in the murder but in the bearing of her. So
Speaker 2: it's a very very, very strange stories. It's like when
Speaker 2: you say, hello, these these stories are just like right
Speaker 2: out of the Twilight Zone, and yeah, they're very strange.
Speaker 7: Yeah, they're very I mean, it's all basical cliche when
Speaker 7: people say that, and there really is some writers and
Speaker 7: that sort of specialize into more gory stories. And I
Speaker 7: mean you were with Ted Bundy and then your book
Speaker 7: Vampire with Richard Chase, so yes, I mean, it's not
Speaker 7: like you're mining gore, but jeez, those are some of
Speaker 7: the gorrious stories out there as well. And this story,
Speaker 7: these stories like Twilight Zone, if people remember that type
Speaker 7: of show that the twist is incredibly a twist. It's
Speaker 7: not twist is an understatement, and it really is horror,
Speaker 7: it really because that's what Twilight's don't were. There were
Speaker 7: fictional horror stories. But I think what this is is
Speaker 7: that we show that you definitely demonstrate that it's much
Speaker 7: stranger than fiction, but it's also very much like a
Speaker 7: modern horror story in set in the last fifty years.
Speaker 2: It really is. It's very where you know, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of homicide cases out there, but these these very
Speaker 2: strange ones kept popping up. And the book that will
Speaker 2: be published and well, but in fact, Vampire, the Richard
Speaker 2: Chase movie movie, uh I wish Vampire Richard Chase Murders
Speaker 2: is going to be re released by uh Wild Blue Press,
Speaker 2: and I'm adding additional modern day photographs to it as well,
Speaker 2: and that. Yeah, that that took what of of of
Speaker 2: real evidence that that I had that I was able
Speaker 2: to photograph while I was out there, And and you
Speaker 2: know some of the homes. So and the another book
Speaker 2: that Wild Blue Press is going to do has to
Speaker 2: do with uh other Kentucky murders and and and they're
Speaker 2: justice bizarre to some strange things. And you know, people
Speaker 2: do some very diabolical things, but like I say, sometimes
Speaker 2: they're with a real twist. And that's what I kept
Speaker 2: finding over and over again with these Kentucky cases. And
Speaker 2: the funny there was you know that there were other
Speaker 2: cases I could have chosen. You can only write so many,
Speaker 2: and I had to pass over them that were almost
Speaker 2: equally as strange. I almost had to grab us from
Speaker 2: a lot that were they were I consider to be
Speaker 2: the best one, the most interesting ones, the ones that
Speaker 2: had the most that they were unique and they had
Speaker 2: that sort of twist to them.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and and they're really unforgettable stories too. And so
Speaker 7: I congratulate you and UH on really finding and earthing
Speaker 7: some stories and bringing them to light and bringing them
Speaker 7: to an audience. So I want to thank you very
Speaker 7: much for coming on and talking about death.
Speaker 2: Of a cheerleader.
Speaker 7: And this is shortorious Notorious USA, and so there'll be
Speaker 7: more volumes of this because, like you say, uh, thankfully,
Speaker 7: the psychopaths have been very, very prolific and so makes
Speaker 7: for incredible stories.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they sure, they sure provide the material to the writers,
Speaker 2: don't they. Yeah. You know, I'd like to say I
Speaker 2: always like to point not in my stories without coming
Speaker 2: out and saying it, the things that people need to
Speaker 2: do to protect themselves. Always lock your doors all you know,
Speaker 2: things are normal until they're not. It just and I
Speaker 2: just want to say this for the audience. If anybody's
Speaker 2: going to have it of not locking their car doors
Speaker 2: or their or their house door, you know, their homes
Speaker 2: at night, do so because you know, you know, Richard
Speaker 2: Chase tried to get to the home once and and
Speaker 2: the door was locked. And he went to the next
Speaker 2: house and murdered somebody. And they asked him about that,
Speaker 2: and he said, well, you know, they didn't want me in.
Speaker 2: The door was locked. Of course he was just he
Speaker 2: was not legally insane, but he was deeply mentally ill.
Speaker 2: He wasn't clear thinking like a Theodore Bundy. But there's
Speaker 2: a lot of people can do to protect themselves and
Speaker 2: not become victims. And I think the more people know
Speaker 2: about how this stuff works, the better off they'll be.
Speaker 7: Well, absolutely, this is amazing when you look at some
Speaker 7: of the cases like the Nightstalker, where that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 7: People were in that time in California. I'm going to
Speaker 7: keep my window open, and so you keep your window open,
Speaker 7: your back door. And these people, whether they think they're
Speaker 7: being guided by voices that that window open means something, yes,
Speaker 7: certainly then they're going to do something, or they're just
Speaker 7: a cunning psychopath that says, you know what, it's very thanks.
Speaker 7: Thanks for leaving your window open or your door open.
Speaker 2: Thanks. This this this Kentucky book and another book that
Speaker 2: that Greg and I wrote to two other books were
Speaker 2: on We did cases out of Ohio and then out
Speaker 2: of Pennsylvania. And one of the stories I did out
Speaker 2: of Pennsylvania was about a kid named Ali Cryder who
Speaker 2: murdered his best friends, his best friend and his parents
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night and they kept their
Speaker 2: door open, and the reports I've received that a lot
Speaker 2: of people did so. When I was talking to the
Speaker 2: Kenny attorney, I said, is this true that before these
Speaker 2: murders occurred, a lot of people in these neighborhoods would
Speaker 2: keep their doors unlocked. He said, yeah, a lot of
Speaker 2: them would. To me, that is absolutely shocking. There isn't
Speaker 2: any way. I've been this way all my life. There
Speaker 2: isn't any way I'm going to sleep in the house
Speaker 2: or any place and not lock my doors. It's not
Speaker 2: going to happen. But some people think that way, and
Speaker 2: lo and behold, something evil comes their way and something
Speaker 2: diabolical happens right near them. People have a tendency to
Speaker 2: think those things happen elsewhere, but they need to understand.
Speaker 2: But they apparently a lot of people don't. Those terrible
Speaker 2: things can happen anywhere at any time, and people need
Speaker 2: to take the proper precaution. But I like to say,
Speaker 2: my wife knows this. I don't get shocked very often.
Speaker 2: But just hearing the guy tell me that people in
Speaker 2: these neighborhoods in this day time, a lot of them
Speaker 2: would not lock their door, I thought, man like another world.
Speaker 2: To me, I would never think that way. But people
Speaker 2: think that everything's normal until it's not. And unfortunately, when
Speaker 2: it's not normal, it's if it's haintous, if it's diabolical,
Speaker 2: it's going to it can have some really bad effects
Speaker 2: for those involved. So it would be whose people to,
Speaker 2: you know, lock their doors and if possible me or
Speaker 2: comfortable with it, arm themselves and just pray that nothing
Speaker 2: bad ever comes your way behind If it does, you're
Speaker 2: prepared for it. That's not like to point out in
Speaker 2: the book. Just be prepared. Just do what you can
Speaker 2: do to help yourself and lock up. Yeah.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, well, every almost every true Crown book I ever
Speaker 7: read was a cautionary tale and there has to be
Speaker 7: something to be learned from it. And I think that's
Speaker 7: where the great audience really is is women who can
Speaker 7: really identify being sometimes often a victim of lesser things.
Speaker 7: But I think they really can relate to some of
Speaker 7: these victims where just at the wrong place, at the
Speaker 7: wrong time.
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 7: I'll play and soon, yeah all right, for those for Kevin,
Speaker 7: for those that would like to see what else you've written,
Speaker 7: and also maybe contact you. Do you do the Facebook
Speaker 7: thing and how might people contact you?
Speaker 2: And do you have a website? Leno, Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm I've joined the ranks of Wild Blue Press and
Speaker 2: I'm getting stuff uploaded to Wild Blue Press now, but
Speaker 2: they can visit me at Wild Blue Press in the
Speaker 2: days ahead, and that's Wild Blue Press, and I'll have
Speaker 2: information on there. I can blog from there. I'm also
Speaker 2: on Facebook and they can find me there. And I
Speaker 2: have been answering questions for over five years about Ted
Speaker 2: Bundy at a site called executed today dot com. And
Speaker 2: if you go to execute it today dot com if
Speaker 2: you're interested in Ted Bundy. They did a Q and
Speaker 2: A with me back in January of two thousand and nine,
Speaker 2: before my book The Bunny Murders were published, and you know,
Speaker 2: I hung around and answered some questions and it's got
Speaker 2: my witness. I thought there'd be twelve fifteen questions. Well
Speaker 2: we're over seven thousand posts now and yeah, really it's
Speaker 2: probably probably one of August threads on the Internet. And
Speaker 2: it's been over five years and people still ask questions
Speaker 2: and we have slow periods and we have very busy
Speaker 2: periods where people are asking questions, and so if anybody
Speaker 2: has interest there, they can find me there. They can
Speaker 2: find me on Facebook, and pretty soon you'll be able
Speaker 2: to find me at Wild Glue Press.
Speaker 7: Yeah. Well, congratulations on all the reissues too. And I
Speaker 7: know Wild Blue Press is really a great opportunity for authors,
Speaker 7: you know, a publishing company run by authors, for authors,
Speaker 7: run by letting authors do what authors do. Fantastic, what
Speaker 7: a concept, and uh yeah, and so and you're in
Speaker 7: great company. And I'm we've had those people on the
Speaker 7: program of course, and Burl and Caitlin and Ron friends
Speaker 7: people and yourself and Steve and if I'm missing anyone,
Speaker 7: I will Fred Rosen of course. So yeah, it's a
Speaker 7: great bride stable and great guys and writing some great books.
Speaker 7: So I want to thank you very much, Kevin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I want to say I'll be on Burle's show,
Speaker 2: a Burl Bear Show if anybody wants to listen, on
Speaker 2: November eighth. And that's also Lively over there too. Oh.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, Burl's the best.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Well, thank you, thank you very much, and I look
Speaker 7: forward to listening to you on Burl's program. And you
Speaker 7: have a great evening and hope to hear from you
Speaker 7: soon with the volume two of Death of a Cheerleader.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much, Kevin.
Speaker 2: Right, thanks Van here, bye bye, good night.
Speaker 10: M HM.