Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis, your host,
and I'm really looking forward to the guests this evening.
I met him out in Dallas this summer at the
Moufon event, and I thought he was a great speaker,
and he really digs right into all the Texas UFO cases.
So I'm really glad to have him. I'm glad to
be here actually on election night, so you can and
us people that is, you can escape for a little
while you're a election anxiety. So here we are, and
as people that know me here, I don't talk about
politics on this show, and I'm glad not to. I
need to escape from it too. So anyway we are here.
Speaker 2: On this night.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what the amount of traffic people are
going to be watching it live.
Speaker 2: Hopefully it's the.
Speaker 1: Same as usual, maybe more, we'll see. But the blog
this week actually pertains to one of the topics we're
going to be talking about. Charles Lear wrote a blog
this week and it is called a pro that's ap
ro mof on in the cash Lander case, which those
of you who have been watching my show for a
long time, you know that I was one of the
very few people to get Colby Landram on this show here,
and that was some time ago, and it was a
pretty good interview. As far as I know, I've reached
out to him a number of times and he's not
doing any podcasts or anything as far as I know.
Let's see merchandise, so we have some people ordering the
T shirts I help you, and you know, take a look.
It's over at podcastufo dot com where our blogs are
and other information, and you'll see the merchandise there and
it's reasonably cost a podcast Ufo merchandise, So check that
out when you can. And all want to thank everyone
that helps out with the show. There's so many people.
I'll just name a couple of the Donna Donna Is
helps as the producer and does a lot of work
out behind the scenes. I have all these people that
have been helping a long time, Palmer Brock, Peggy Phil
who's been helping me for a long time. There's so
many people again, and I'm hoping I'm not missing anyone
right now. Of course, Charles Lear helps out with these
great blogs with information every single week, and anyway I
think and I want to thank all those too. Right now,
all you listening and all the people that support the show.
Thank you so much. And here we are ready to
bring in our guests.
Speaker 3: Hello, Daniel, greeting, Save Martin. It's great to be able
to finally be here with you. I know, we talked
about this for a few months now, and it's awesome
to be on the show with you.
Speaker 2: Thanks, that's right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, it was quite quite difficult because you're
a you're a drummer and a teacher, and you have
you very busy schedule. So yeah, but I'm honored to
have you on, and I really love the interaction you
had when you were doing your talks. I thought you,
you know, you know the topic extremely well and really
reacted well with the audience as well. So anyway, glad
you here. I'm surprised, I actually I was just saying
this ahead of the show. I'm surprised I don't see
you on a lot of TV programs because you're just
so well versed in this.
Speaker 3: Well. Thanks, you know. I had a great time with
the events. It was a great opportunity to have it
here in my hometown area, the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex,
and you know, an awesome opportunity to kind of shed
light on some of the lesser note and historical cases
here in the Lone Star State. When it comes to multimedia,
when it comes to all these different shows that are
on network television and all that, it's interesting. I don't
keep up with a whole lot these days, but it's
not something that pops up a whole lot anymore. I
would get a few pitches every once in a while,
and it would be for some new and you know,
interesting concept. But what it seems like, I think that
most network television is interested in is the you know,
a shared formula that seems to you know, be rehashing
a lot of the old shows. And maybe there's nothing
wrong with that necessarily, but it's something that becomes redundant
after a while. I find that of an addition to
my day job, which is, as you mentioned, a a
private music teacher and a drummer. I am already busy
enough with that, but I think that, you know, for
the leisure time that I have, i'd really try to
stay dedicated to research projects. And while I don't mind
making appearances at events like we were at a few
months ago, and I think it's important to help generate
awareness in the community, not necessarily to advocate a particular
you know, stance on believing certain things or anything really,
but more than just bringing to attention some of the
interesting parts of our history or you know, modern things
that are going on in a way that can help
us just understand from all angles. And so when it
comes to the shows, I think they're curious, you know,
as far as what they can do to stir the
minds of interesting concepts. But at the same time, a
lot of it becomes very much edited in post production,
as you know, and ends up being taken out of
context sometimes. So I'm not opposed to it, but it
hasn't been something that's been at the top of my
priorities lately. But it's a great way for people to
become aware of topics that they otherwise might not be
familiar with, or uns they go out of their way
or someone else tells them about it. It's great to see.
And I have a lot of friends that regularly appear
on various programs as well, so that's cool to see
them too.
Speaker 1: Right, right, So I got to talk quickly about the
yellow fant in the room, so I speak it's just
because I've been getting a lot of email about two subjects.
One is on Netflix recently dropped The Manhattan Alien the
Abduction with Linda Napoleonos.
Speaker 2: I believe that's how you.
Speaker 1: Say your name something like that. So a lot of
people wanted me to weigh in on that.
Speaker 2: So to speak.
Speaker 1: But I did watch. I did watch all the episodes
on that. I don't know how popular my opinion is
going to be. People are asking me about that, but
I get really and a lot of people do not
like my opinion of Bob Lazaire either. But when I
see something that is absolutely there's deception scene that it
makes me wonder about the whole case.
Speaker 2: That's just the way. That's the way my nature is.
Speaker 1: And for instance, when you see this supposed witnesses handwriting,
and I do a lot of handwriting analysis for authenticating
documents and things like that, and I'm telling you, the
handwriting between Linda and the witnesses or at least two
of them that they showed line up perfectly like it
would be her handwriting. I got to tell you, So
that makes me really wonder about that case. That being said,
we'll put that. I will tell you it's a great production.
It's very well done. Check it out on Netflix when
you can, and it's the Manhattan Alien abductions.
Speaker 2: The name of that.
Speaker 1: The second one that people are contacting me. I'm sorry
if you're taking the time on this, Daniel, but I
thought it would be better to address this. The second
one a lot of people are contacting me on is
the image that lou Elizondo show during a Philadelphia presentation,
and it's really just a reflection on I'm really surprised
that he didn't vet this more carefully. It's a reflection
of a light basically like a chandelier or a floor
lamp or something on a window. And I've actually done
a video on that reflections how they can. There's a
famous one you see all the time in nineteen fifty
I think it is in Massachusetts at like a Navy
station or something like that, where you see these lights
in a triangle formation. That's lights inside the building itself
reflecting on the window, and that it's easily mistaken. But
I just thought I was surprised that he mistaken mistakenly
used that. And we'll just call it a mistake because
I don't think there was any ill intentions at all.
We'll just call it a mistake. But I thought i'd
address it. I don't know if you want to chime
in on any of that, but.
Speaker 3: I'll just say that I think it's important to pay
attention to the media being released, you know, and it's
something that whether you like you mentioned, you know, whether
you have a particular view on it or not, I
think it's just good to be aware of what material
is out, what's being promoted. And of course, with this
recent issue with Elizondo, I'll actually be seeing him here
in a few weeks. He's coming to Dallas on the twentieth,
and I'll wonder if that's actually still in his presentation.
I guess we'll find out. But I did see about that.
You know, are very opinionated online and all I know,
and there's a whole show that could be done about
this situation. But I just do remember seeing that he
made a response basically giving hats off to the internet
of people who managed to figure this out. And I'm
just thinking, wasn't he claiming to be the director of
a program that investigated UFOs for the government and he's
so it's very curious to think like this is something
that has actually happened. But you know, here we are,
And yeah, you know, it's still an ongoing book tour.
As far as I'm concerned, he is going to be
here and giving a similar presentation, So I'll just have
to gauge what he does then, and you know, hopefully
it gives me a different perspective in person.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm surprised, you know, in his tweet, I'm
sure you saw that where he basically is apologizing and
he's talking about how quickly that people found you know
what it was. John Greenwald, I think is possibly the
one that actually may have uncovered at that as a
Facebook post. But he claims that, you know, someone from
the government had given him this, and if that is true,
then that also makes you wonder. This seems like someone
trying to you know, discredit him. Possibly, I don't know,
you know, that's I have an open mind about the
whole thing. But you know, I mean, if he indeed
trusted someone because of that image, then he's got to
really question who it is he's trusting. Oh, definitely, no, yeah,
but interesting. So let's uh, I want to ask you,
what what do you think? I mean, there's so many
great cases.
Speaker 2: I was looking at all.
Speaker 1: These cases in Texas so many great ones. What is
your go to favorite? I'll's get here oft Oh.
Speaker 3: Wow, Well, I think for most people who've ever followed
along that's kept up with anything that I've been involved with,
it's it's easy to just say Aurora. But there's a
lot of reasons why I think it's it's something that,
more than just the UFO case, is a fun part
of history to look into. But aside from that, for
you know, ones that I think really matter as far
as what we can tangibly do, and not that there's
nothing that can be done about Aurora, but I would
say that, you know, one like the Stephenville case, a
much more modern and very highly credible case, one that
would sometimes be called a flap, you know, in some
circumstances where you have a number of people witnessed an
object tracked on radar, the military had a response to
having F sixteen's pursuing or in proximity of the object,
Law of morsement, move on, investigators, all this stuff, you know.
So I think that this is a helpful way that
we can see that it's a well documented case. Number
of people in the town Stephenville, Texas, in the beginning
of twenty two thousand and eight, and people still describe
seeing things, and I think that there are maneuvers, military maneuvers.
I see things, you know, where I live, far away
from Stephenville in the Naval Reserve that those epics teams
came from, is not too far from where I live
and work. But I would say that it's important to
keep in mind that this is a very possibly rare
instance where people describe seing UFOs all the time, and
in Texas, and it's hard to keep track of a
lot of that. I have a network, a group that
basically is just a networking hub. It's not necessarily an
investigative group, but it's called the Texas UFO Network where
people can share about things, and there's so much that happens.
And I think just with things like Starlink satellites and
Falcon launches and things like this, we have more. We
have an influx of UFO reports in general, just because
people well and I think, for a while, not be
able to understand exactly what they're seeing. And because of
those instances, I think there's a lot more noise, But
it doesn't mean that they're not important to look into
or to be able to look forward to the appropriate parties.
But I would say that with something like Stephenville, the
Stephenville UFO incident, there's been a number of media productions made,
either documentary based or online podcasts and things that people
have talked about. And this is what's really cool as well.
If you want to show that picture, you're welcome to.
This is myself and a buddy, a colleague of mine,
Chase Howard. We went to the first ever and maybe
only ever, what they call the et Festiveville last year.
The Chamber of Commerce or merchants in the downtown areas
is held on the Historic Square. They decided to put
together an event that sort of commemorates a bit of
their weirder history that for a while no one really
wanted much attention for in the town. I think Dublin Dr.
Pepper actually did some promotional things and merchandise around that time,
which is sort of a rare coveted set of items
these days. But I would say that what's cool to
see is that the people, in some form of a
visual them have actually welcomed the idea of embracing this
as a community. Maybe not all together in a particular view,
but just to say, hey, let's get together about something interesting,
and so they invited me to come out and to
give a presentation on Texas UFOs. But also they had
other family friendly activities. So I think it's great when
there are festival related events because it's something that garners
the attention of a bit more of a family environment
rather than the serious toned researchers and conferences, which is awesome.
That's all great too, but they're not really as narrowed
into the UFO research as maybe they are in the
ability to kind of put together local community events. So
I'm all for that. I think it's great to see
and it's helpful to bring people again into better form
of awareness when it comes to these subjects in the
history of some of these local areas to a lot
of these people who live in these locations around the
state or are moving in and from wherever, and they
don't know that this has some interesting history. And I
just kind of going back into the original question of
what do I think Other than Aurora, which we can
dive into, I think that Stevenville as a modern case
really deals with some of the more important aspects of
a UFO investigation. Altogether. Again with the hard evidence. People
always ask where's the hard data. There might be some
photographs that people took, but you have citizens, law enforcement official,
people in town all describing perceiving an aircraft of some
sort or some kind of objects, you know, whether it
was flying or people perceive it to be using some propulsion,
whatever forms of interpretation there are of this object. It's
not just people. This was tracked on radar. You have
the F sixteen's. It was said that up to ten
or more of sixteen's were out in pursuit or in
some form of rendouvou and you know, accordance with this
object flying from horizon to horizon, sometimes called the flying Walmart.
It was an enormous object, mild wide craft or something perhaps,
And so it makes us wonder, you know, people always wonder,
are these hours or theirs or whoever? You know, And
so it's very curious that with all the things that
have come out since two thousand and eight. Remember this
is after, you know, a lot of the buzzs in
the last several years have been about the tic TAC.
This is even after the tic TAC event in two
thousand and four, and it's just at the time, that
was never made aware by you know, the news or anything.
And so when two thousand and eight came around and
this became an incident, Ken Cherry, who at the time
was with Moufon, came forward with a press release and
he went on Larry King and he actually was asked
to resign from Moufon because it caused quite a stir
the information of the case was being released without chain
of command. There's a lot of controversy about that, but
I would just say that the important thing is that
you had a lot of eyes on this, a lot
of people from within the town, a lot of people
coming outside, and it was a pretty extensively investigated situation
that Ken did eventually have a book come out, and
I did bring some literatures for anyone who's literature buff,
I'm a huge fan of books and things. So he
came out this one as a fictional, fictionalized version so
that he could include things that he wouldn't normally be
able to say otherwise. So I thought that was pretty
clever of Ken. I worked with him for a number
of years and so he is probably the go to
person when it comes to the stephen Ville UFO case
and I would just say, you know, from the full
spectrum of historical events being this is probably one of
the most modern ones, not just in Texas but overall
in the world, probably as far as recent cases are concerned,
that has a lot of this substance to it, and
I think the radar tracking is really important. So, you know,
in two thousand and eight, that was the big headlines
and that's what actually got me interested in looking around
here in my local area to find if there were
any groups so or anyone that really knew about that situation.
And then the next year I started to connect with
different people, and a little bit after that I found EPIC,
which was the group that Kin cherryformed after being involved
with MUFON and it was the Extraordinary Phenomena Investigations Council
with Jim Marsh and that's how I met him as well.
So I got involved with that group with Ken and
Jim and a lot of other great people who are
still friends, and it looked at things more than just UFO,
which I thought was very interesting because I am fascinated
as you and many of the watchers and listeners are.
You know, the unexplained is just so fascinating that there's
a lot of different aspects to what you can go
down and go down the rabbit hole of any of
these different things. And I've taken the time to look
into a lot. I really find uphology historically, and you know,
the current things going on interesting from just the phenomenon
all the different types of UFO phenomena that there are,
as well as the cultural aspects. Is settying that as well.
Speaker 1: Right, Right, So while we're on Stephenville there the Bush
Ranch was involved in this, right, I mean, am I
am I getting them mixed up? Or is this one
where the Bush Ranch? Uh, there was a flyover close
to right?
Speaker 3: That's actually it and it makes people consider that, you know,
with the president President Bush at the time, you know,
you have this area that's not too far away and
if there's something flying over, you know. I think the
most relatable thing we've seen recently are these ideas of
the China by balloons and things. Well, you know, this
is happening, and they're not alien space ships or whatever.
Other ideas of like you know, nominalists phenomena are if
they're just adversarial nations or any rogue nations or any
any nation as an announced or declared that they're in airspace.
That is a I mean, in the most technical sense
of the tournament's a threat to national security. And you know,
whether it's actually a threat or not physically or however else,
you know, that's that's essentially what it becomes looked at
on the radar. Whenever you have something that's an enormous
possibly a craft lying over potentially near where the president lives,
that should sound quite a few alarms. And I think that,
you know, with the recent ideas of like the spy
balloons not being nearly as I mean, the media sensation
kind of took off a little bit, but then no
one's heart anything. No one's had any follow up with
the objects that were over like Alaska or Canada. There's
I mean maybe there has been, but I mean new
stories have their fifteen minutes of fame and they go
on to the next biggest thing. And there's a lot
that could be said about that, but I'll just mention that, yes,
you're you're correct. At the Bush Crawford Ranch, that whole
farm area in Texas is an enormous stretch of land.
So to be able to go from as they describe
horizon to horizon effortlessly and sort of blot out the sky.
That's pretty startling considering, you know, if we do have
and obviously people do suspect if you keep up with
any of this, you know these ideas, is that people
suspect that we do in secret or in parallel to
like the publicly or even military technologies, that we have
pretty advanced things that could you know, do some incredible things.
And it makes us wonder. Not too far away, especially
right near the where the Naval Joint Air Base send
out those depsixteens, we have Lockheed Martin and skunk Works
right here in the Fort Worth area. And you know,
I'm not going to make any grandiose claims, but it's
no secret that this private corporation, you know, Lockheed, is
basically buying or selling to the highest bidder and there
in contracts with probably defense defense contractors. And it makes
us wonder, you know, are there really interesting things going
on that they're making or working on or have been
that haven't seen the light of day and years or decades.
So you know, some of these things we know have happened.
The SR seventy one, the stealth bomber, stealth fighter all
these ideas are something that we're once secretive and now
we're seeing it like air shows and things like that,
and so we haven't had a lot of those things
come out lately in a way that unless you really
like an aviation buff and you keep up with that
and go to the air shows. I mean, I saw
the Blue Angels coming back into town. So that's that's
just one of the staples we see. But you know,
we're not seeing any black Triangles and making the debut
at like you know, local air shows yet anyway, So
it would be cool if maybe some of these things
are actually going to be released, like, yeah, we've had
this for a while. Although that's a huge can of worms,
but I would say that if if something's flying over
that's not ours in a sense of like you know,
the US and someone else, then yeah, that should be
you know, utmost attention on any security that can actually
track that. And so a lot of people did I
think that you have. I think Peter Davenport did some
reporting and found that the track that was on radar,
and so that's considered hard evidence in a lot of ways,
and I think that it's just one of those things
where if this was going on. You have someone else
who's looking out to fly over the president, it's a
pretty big deal. And if it's not, if it's someone
here that you know is working on this thing's in secret,
that's that's incredible. It would be weird to think that
there aren't actually I think, you know, this might not
be a popular opinion, but I would say it would
actually be weird to think that there aren't super secret
programs out there that can do incredible things that are
often misidentified as UFOs. It would be like a huge
waste of money and opportunity. If that hasn't been happening
for years, it's odd that to think it's not. But anyway, Yeah,
so I think that that's another interesting element to that
that case is that it was near Crawford Ranch, Bush
and family lived.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you mentioned this is I don't want to
go way off track or whatever, but this was me
filming this. I was actually underneath the spy balloon when
it was shot. I mean, it's just it was just
very ironic that it happened to be there. But the
thing I wanted to say that, and we'll get right
back to your topic, but I still think it was
very weird that they had those two shootdowns right away
right after that, and then you don't hear about anything else.
I mean, that's that's bizarre and really not, like you said,
not much talk about it really, so.
Speaker 3: Yeah, strange. I would say that, you know, despite the
intention of whatever actually did cause that to happen, events
like that can be and there's a lot that could
be said about this with tons of different things and
go down this whole rabbit hole. But I would say
that sometimes events can be taken advantage and exploited for
the purpose of political, military, commercial, or whatever game and
be spun into something different. So maybe this is a
product of that. I don't know, but it's yeah. I mean,
it's interesting to see that that was kind of back
to back and then there's nothing. But I would just
use those as a sort of analogy to relate that
people forget about that. I mean, those were technically UFO sightings,
and we I think we're able to in some way
deduct that, Okay, these seem to be like spy balloons
and maybe this is where they originated and whatever's going on.
So a lot of people like that we're seeing just
like what you showed and they can't readily identify that,
so people often forget that UFO A often gets conflated
with alien space ship. But it's a subjective terms. It's
an individually subjective term that each person can relate to differently,
because two or more people can see the same thing
and not know what they're looking at. One person might,
but it's just one of those things that we often think,
a UFO must mean it's et, you know, and that's
really what it is. But really it's tough because when
it I think, when we continue to see things in
modern times, it's easier to now relate it to drones,
spy technologies, satellites, you know, whereas like back when these
things weren't either commercially available or as big of a
you know, an issue, it's easier to say, okay, well
it must be otherworldly or something. You know, so you
see a lot of.
Speaker 2: That right right.
Speaker 1: Here's how every once in a while, I'll pop maybe
a question here. Yeah, this isn't actually a question, but
Christopher is saying, haven't seen separately to fifty to two
hundred foot circular hard just now lights over Houston in
nineteen ninety one. In twenty nineteen he's basically wondering if
you heard of other sightings as such, like a disc
of no lights.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I think that one of the first things
I would say to do. Obviously, there are various reporting
agencies you're welcome to. You know, we can continue to
continue the discussion on Texas ufhone network because that's a
great way for people to find out, oh I saw
this too, or now that I wants to sharing. You know,
we can figure this out. And I think that even
with the other databases available, it's helpful to know that
there are resources. When it comes to those dates. Nothing
really stands out as far as what you describes a
large disc like that. There very well could be some reports.
But the other thing is a lot of people don't
report sidings. They just either you know, keep it to
themselves or maybe share it with a few people. So
I think that to come forward like that is it
takes a lot of courage, and it's tough to share
about something that either isn't really very popular or people
get ridiculed for. So yeah, i'd say that we can
check the databases. MOFON has a database, and there are
other old historical organizations that do have files, So I
would say that it would be good to see, you know,
if we can find any relation between those dates and
the locations of Houston. There's the Houston UFO network as well,
and people do try to figure out like what they
can do in the community to help, you know, there
are any other witnesses.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1: Now, when I was out in Texas and I asked
the audience this summer how many people think they saw
a UFO, there was quite a few hands that went up.
I'm telling you, it looked like I would have to
guess at least seventy five or one hundred people put
their hands up that they thought they saw a UFO.
And when I asked the next question, which was how
many of you reported it, it was like three hands. So,
and I think that's probably across the board. I know,
when I had my sighting in two thousand and seven,
I did not report it.
Speaker 2: I didn't even know there was a place to report them,
you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's when you're out there in
the public, you have no idea there's a mofon or
anything like that, and I call the police department and
there's from what I understand, they generally will tell you
you can report it at either you know, Peter Davenport's.
Speaker 2: Or a mofon, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: But anyway, you know, I would like to talk about
if it's okay with you, we can jump into the
Aurora one, because that one is really fascinating, and I
know there's a lot there's some controversy about the gravesite,
and and I know the town will not let there
be a you know, the body exzoomed or anything like that,
or do they even know exactly where it is.
Speaker 3: There's a lot to that, and I just I want
to take an opportunity because Aurora is a pretty extensive,
historically documented legend. I would say in many ways, I
try to look at it, and I'm more broad since
than just the UFO case, although that is a really
interesting part of how it's been interpreted interpreted throughout the years.
But to really preface the Aurra story, I just want
to shed light on a lesser known case that deals
with citing well before the even the Great Airship Mystery,
to kind of give some context to the idea that
UFOs in the sense asart as what we call them,
are not a new phenomenon. I think a lot of
people and your your viewership is probably familiar with this,
but I want to just call to light the Denison
saucer case, which there should be a visual of as well,
and just want to mention that because what's important about
understanding aurora is that it's not an isolated event, whether
it's historically proven or disproven. The idea that these airships
as they call them, were sort of, you know, the
latest incarnation of UFOs, of just some aerial phenomenon, but
predating even that by some nineteen years, is this idea
of In the Denison Daily News that was reported that
a farmer in North Texas, north of Dallas named John
Martin described seeing an object that was moving and it
was a light, and he said that it first looked
like it was the size of an orange in the sky,
and then it came closer and it was looked like
a saucer. And I think it's so interesting that he
used that terminology of a saucer in eighteen seventy eight
north of Dallas, when, of course you have years later
Kenneth Arnold describing seeing crescent shape objects that moved like saucers,
and that was kind of taken out of context and
the media. And now we have the term flying saucer,
which has been you know, an umbrella term for a
lot of this since the fifties, you know. So I
think that there's so much that happens that goes off
the radar in most people's for of you just because
we forget the language of terminology, the nomenclature changes, and
so we forget how to research historical cases because we know,
you start losing the term UFO before the fifties, it's
just not relevant or present in society. So and looking
into these historical cases like Aurora, it starts being brought
back into the modern scope of things with the the
renaming UFO and attachment to the story. So what's cool
is again that you know, we can kind of claim
stake to the use of that term saucer here in
Texas well before the whole you know, flying saucer craze
of the fifties and onward. And then you know, like
you mentioned, you know, this is a you know, one
of those things that it's helpful to see that as
it comes to the end of the eighteen hundreds, in
the nineteenth century, you have the what we call the
Great Airship Mystery, and this is a series of events
going from eighteen in ninety six into ninety seven, especially
in the height of April eighteen ninety seven, there are
newspapers throughout California, the Midwest and in other states that
are describing the airship, sometimes as a singular phenomenon or
as various crafts. And it's really important to also know
that historically, even contemporary airships weren't even built in a
way that was what was being described until the late
eighteen into eighteen ninety seven into November, David Schwartz made
the first hard frame dirigible airship, and then of course
eighteen ninety eight eight ninety nine a lot more was
actually being made, and then of course in nineteen oh
three you've got the Flyer by the Wright Brothers. So
it's not something that actually was all instantaneous as far
as historically documented. Now, it's not to say that you
didn't have people who were inventors. There actually is a
lot of interesting speculation about various elite scientists, inventors, and
groups of wealthy people who were putting together interesting schematics
to form flying contraptions. Whether there were more air balloon
like or blimp like or dirigible or airship. There's ideas
that basically incorporate some of these interesting artistics schematics by
a guy named Charles deil Shaw who had these interesting
drawings that were found in these books in a dumpster
in Houston, Texas. Interestingly enough, so this is all something
that people wonder are these just forms of art being
like an artistic creation or is it like real schematics
by this group the Sonora Aero Club that were creating
airships in the late eighteen hundreds that no one even
knew about until like way later on. So I do
think that there probably were inventors working on it, like
the Wright brothers, but they were the ones who got
sort of the claim to fame once their flyer really
took off and literally, you know, and made the headline.
So I think that sometimes we just remember what's documented.
We have a tendency to forget as a society. Some
of the things that get lost that either aren't kept
in the public domain or gets thrown out. So it's
hard to say about some of the ephemera that could
describe these things that they are authentic and if it's really,
you know, pointing to the idea that maybe the airships
were inventors and not just you know, as the Aurora
story suggests, not an inhabitant of this world. So I
think that in the context of the Great Airship Mystery,
a lot of people get the impression that the Aurora
story was the first ever documented UFO, and not only that,
the first ever documented crash. And I think that, you know,
most of those things could be debate and say, well, technically, no,
you have a crash described in Nebraska in eighteen eighty four.
But also it is of UFOs in general. We just
don't call them UFOs. They were airships and then they
were meteorological wonders and all kinds of other things that
people call them, dating wellback for the eighteen hundreds too.
But when it does come to Aurora, I think it's
important how it stands out as probably now these days
the most notable of the airship stories, because not only
do you deal with someone who had seen something, and
that picture you showed of the Dallas Morning News actually
shows on the fifth page over a dozen other airship stories.
Aurora was just there in the middle of the fifth page,
and you have one from Merkel, Texas that describes it
an anchor being let down and then cut off, and
the town kept it there and you know, in the
public square for a while, and other people would hear
singing from the airship, and the crew would come down
and land and ask for supplies. Typically he's dealt with
human aperiod occupants, the captain perhaps, but nothing too otherworldly
for the most part. So when Aurora decided to, you know,
either come up with the story or something did happen
or whatever actually did happen. The way that it made
the news was because of a writer there, a cotton
trader named S. E. Hayden, which often gets misspelled in
almost every book and article that came out about this.
He wrote an article called a Windmill Demolishes It, and
essentially the idea is that an airship came down from
the south, crashed into the tower of Judge Proctor's windmill
on a farm, and because of the explosion, it scattered
debrief for acres, and the metal from the explosion, which
seemed to be the contents of the ship, was silvery
and aluminum soft to the touch, and the farmers there,
the Proctors, along with apparently other townsfolk came to the
wreckage to gather specimens of what it says was strange metal,
and that the occupant, which was said to have been
the only one on board of the airship, was found.
At least the remains were badly disfigured, but enough of
the original was recovered to determine, according to what was
claimed to be the authority on astronomy later found historically,
a blacksmith named TJ. Wems said that it was of
his opinion that he was an inhabitant of the planet Mars,
and that based upon the remains that he was quote
not an inhabitant of this world. And that's a very
sensational claim. At the time, people you know, don't realize
that science fiction and stories about otherworldly life was around,
just not obviously in the same mediums. There were no
movies or anything, but even things like War of the
World's hd Wells that came out the next year, the
idea of Martians invading. So it's not impossible that people there,
if this idea that you know, other worldly beings was
somehow in their literature and they were able to get
a hold of it, they could learn that, okay, this
is an idea of being discussed, and it's kind of
culturally relevant. So the story itself didn't really get any
attention for a long time, but it does also include
that the otherworldly pilot was given a funeral the next
day or says tomorrow. Now, a lot of people there's
a lot of misconception. I learned about this case from
our friend, the late and great Jim Mars, who lived nearby,
who took me out to the cemetery. He would tell
me about his time there that in the seventies there
would be an uproar in this story resurfacing into the
public and getting media attention in the local newspapers and
investigative groups like Muffon, which at the time was headed
by Bill Case who was also the aviation writer for
the Dallas Morning Dallas Times. Harold, you also have people
like Hayden Hughes from the International UFO Bureau up in
Oklahoma who came down and the idea essentially at the
time was that these people thought enough of this case
of a UFO case as they interpreted it, to be
able to look into potentially finding legal means to exhume
the supposed grave in which the alleged alien has been buried,
and that you can see there's a picture provided to
me by Jim Mars of what has been called the
original headstone. Now, whether that actually is a stone that
was there the whole time, or was put in place,
or was marking a real alien grave, or it's just
someone's mischief that was there at least in the early seventies.
Whether it goes back is contested, but it's hard to see.
Jim thought enough about this little stone that it was
in his mind broken off and broken in half by
treasure hunters and people coming out, and that this strange
shape you can see on that picture shows that there
was what he thought was half of the ship. If
you put the other side together, it was a full,
you know, oblong sort of cigar or disc shaped object
with portpoles. And that seems very imaginative, and you know,
he's Jim is always creative, and I love that. But
you know, this stone actually went missing in June of
nineteen seventy three. Soon after there was a cemetary watch
put up because of these groups wanting to exhume the body.
That's the number one thing people ask about the Aurora cases.
Why don't they just put this to rest and go
dig it up once and for all, And of course
how clever it is to think of that idea, But
fifty years ago people were really serious about trying to
do that and to no avail. So it's still an
ongoing thing that you know, there's no one allowed to
go and dig it up. But they are also worried
because there was a spotted fever at the time and
they didn't want to bring that back potentially, So the
idea of this grave site not being known is really
not the case. People say no one knows where it
really is buried. Well, as far as that location, that
is definitely known, whether there's something there or not that
can be looked into as well. But the idea that
the missing headstone is gone and no one knows where
that spot really was, that's not true. It's very easily accessible.
It can very well be determined even by some of
the things that are out there, and the latest sort
of investigations that have been done really found kind of
the exact area where that's alleged to house or host
some small child sized grape. So throughout the years it
was not really as far as the Aurora story I
referred to as a legend. It really didn't get any
attention from the time it came out all the way
to the late sixties, and then local newspaper writers started
getting into it. Someone from England came out for the
Flying Saucer Review newsletter and investigated it. William driscoll on
behalf of doctor j Allen Heinech, came out to investigate it.
A scientist from a local technical college, and sixties stix
came out to investigate it. It was interesting. It was
interested interesting to a number of people who were, you know,
credentialed enough to go and with what they had at
the time to actually do a field investigation to try
to determine, like if there was really anything to it.
All of them basically said there's not anything that they
could find. They couldn't find a windmill, the metal that
they found was too contemporary. And then later on in
the seventies. So I just want to mention that it's
interesting to see, like Jay Allen Heinich of you know,
euthological lore, and you know, all these things that people
refer to being in Blue Book and Air Force's investigation
in UFOs and going on to form QFOS. It's interesting
to see even someone like Heinick was interested in the
Aurora story, and you know, Jacques Lala, his contemporary, came
out and investigated it as well. A lot of people
have been there to look into seeing that there's any
tangible evidence. So in the seventies, because of all that
people came, they did find metal. A physicist at the
local North Texas State University at the time now U
and T University of North Texas school I went to
for a little while. There was a physicist and other
people there that were interested in studying metal that was found.
And the only thing that was found that seemed a
little bit odd about this metal that wasn't bordinary was
that it had high concentrations of aluminum and zinc and
some iron, but had no magnetic properties, which was extremely unusual,
and that it would have been hard to have access
to this type of aluminum before the nineteen thirties or nineteen.
Speaker 1: Very expensive, very expensive too. I mean any production of
aluminum early on was extremely expensive, like almost like gold.
That's what I've heard now. I don't know if that's
you know, this is going way back before the internet.
Speaker 2: I remember reading something about that, but.
Speaker 1: Just real quickly they've had, you know, the way this
thing is supposedly caught on fire and everything. I know,
you know, all the way back in the Civil War,
the Union had balloons and they have these hydrogen machines
that they used to fill up with hydrogen. Of course,
hydrogen is extremely flammable and these things, you know, would
blow up, and you know, I mean, there was that problem,
and they did mention it was a fiery, very fiery crash,
and it makes you really wonder what made it a
fiery crash and could it have been hydrogen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's a great point. You know, a
lot of people like the obviously the sensational explanation of
it having being an alien and a lot of the
newspapers used that as a headline in the seventies. It
was like National News next. And this is part of
the research project I've been working on is essentially to
document all ways in which the Aurora legend has been
portrayed in all multimedia formats over the last century. And
I've found it's extremely overwhelming because it's it's next to
Roswell and some of those other big names as one
of the most publicized events of an other worldly encounter seventies,
especially seventy three. It's all over all over the States
and some newspaper published by the Associative Press, the United
Press International, and here as you can see, Jim Mars
even is writing about it. For as he was a
writer for the local newspaper, the Fort Worth Star Telegram,
before he was ever a really well known author of
some of his best selling books. And so it's really
cool to see he was interested in helping to you know,
look into this way back in the seventies before people
knew him as this you know, established journalist, which is great,
and because of him, he's how I'm familiar with any
of this stuff. So a lot of what I'm doing
is in honor of our great buddy Jim Mars, and
you know things to him. It's it's important that you
can see that people are doing like what you're helping
to establish with you know, this journalistic work. It's like
a work of anthropology in some way, we're able to
connect with all these amazing people who have stories, contribution
and points of data to contribute to the community and
the greater society at whole. Jim was very much in
tune with a lot of that. He challenged the status
quo of tackling difficult journalism topics even back in the seventies,
and it was something that was controversial. So, you know,
I just want to give a shout out to my
buddy from Mars, of course, and I would just say
that's really important to keep in mind that, you know,
even though I really looked up to him, I don't
put him on a pedestal. I think he even looking
at some of the stuff he got wrong often, and
I thought that was okay because he was willing to
kind of say, oh, right, you know, I'm just doing
what I can. If I can't document it, and if
I can learn from something, that's great. And so I've
been able to find some things that helped to be
reassuring of that that quality of investigating, even in this
journey of Aurora, because there's so much that gets mistaken,
that gets taken out of context, that's erroneous and often
misattributed to wrong dates, wrong you know people. So I
would just say that, you know, when it comes to
Aurora in the seventies, it became an extremely sensational news item.
Mufon did actually find it compelling enough that the charred
remains of the multen state of metal and the charred
and burnt stones and limestone and materials that we're finding.
It was convincing enough to John Schusler of Moufon and
Walt Andris and people like Bill Case and eventually others
that something did actually happen that creates an extreme amount
of heat, probably which can be inferred as an explosion.
Just as you were pointing out, Martin, and I think
it's important to consider what are the alternatives. Were there
actually ships that use some kind of compressed air or
some gas that would have been explosive, because it sounds
like if this is all really what happened as far
as the explosion, then maybe there was something out there
that exploded. Maybe some of the debris wasn't otherworldly, but
was of some interesting construction or a contraption that the
inventor whoever was piloting this potential craft whose met their demise.
If you look at some unfortunately, you know, when people
are in unfortunate situations and they get really mingled, bodies
are hard to identify, and so maybe they found the
remains that didn't seem to be you know all that
human appearing, but who knows. So I think that that's
an interesting component. It puts it in that other worldly
category other than just sort of a terrestrial, cryptic kind
of creation. So I think that's really important to keep
that in mind. That, yeah, maybe, and even talking to
some of the old timers there in Aurora, it's really
interesting to see that their perspective is that some of
them think that, oh, it's not that it was a
hoax and it didn't happen, but it just couldn't. There's
no way that it could have been an alien spaceship
from what other place and time and space because they
were told it was a two engine powered motor with
gasoline and that it just broke down or something. So
I've heard some really outlandish ideas that weren't necessarily debunking it,
but we're taking it out of the category of extraterrestrial.
So those are great points, and I think it's important
to keep it in mind that there are some alternative
considerations to the Aurora story.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you know, here's the thing about that. My
thoughts about that is it seems to me that if
it was an inventor, say, you would think that he
would have connections enough to know that he was missing,
and that you know that there was a fiery crash,
and you know someone would be coming to claim, you know,
the body, you would think, because it couldn't go to
that very far. A craft I wouldn't imagine could go
more than what I'm just guessing, but you know, ten
miles would be a big stretch for something like that
to go. So, I mean, if that's what indeed happened,
I'm just surprised no one ever came forward and to
claim the body or claim that they knew the person.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's another mystery.
Speaker 3: It's a challenge to find any of the potential remains
of any of the alleged airship stories, not just aroar
of it, like the the hundreds of airship reports nationwide.
You know, if any number of them, let's say all
of them were hoaxes, but one percent or half of
one percent, then that means that there could still potentially
be like someone's you know, antique airship out in a
shed or a barn or you know, crash somewhere. So
I'm hopeful in a weird way, I guess, but I'm
hopeful that maybe there actually are remains yet to be found,
and that's like an archaeological gold mine. Obviously that would
totally rewrite modern aviation history, even in the simplest terms
to think that, okay, well maybe the right brothers weren't
there there first. But you know, there's a lot of
ideas about how discovery is not instantaneous and the by
way of declaration, and that we have to make sure
that there's the correct process in which things can get reviewed,
established in journals, and then you know, be publicized through media.
But things are changing now, you know, now that we
have instantaneous ability to live stream, a lot of these
types of things make news a lot quicker. And so
it is curious to think, okay, if this had a
person perish, or all these other stories talked about a
crew that someone like you said would have enough connections
to note that would have been this person or that.
So there are ideas of the telegraph community on the
railways having concocted the story, and I think that it's
really interesting to see that maybe that could account for
some of it, but I don't know if it was
all of it, you know, So some ideas have been
discussed as far as where these airship stories originate. But
it's difficult because the only other person, one of the
other big names as far as paranormal unexplained mysteries, you know,
anomalist things are more, particularly fourteen phenomenon, was Charles Ford.
He wrote new Lands in nineteen twenty in twenty two,
and he was one of the first people ever to
investigate the reports of the airships from twenty years earlier.
And he wasn't considered a UFO investigator, but it's exactly
what he was doing at a time when no one
else was really looking into those at the time, even
then historical reports. So he didn't say anything about Aurora directly,
but he does say that there could be data to
suggest that there are what he referred to as extra
mundane voyagers during the month of April and eighteen ninety seven.
So I think it's pretty cool. But throughout that, you know,
you know, the thirties, there's not a lot going on.
Apparently there are reports of people seeing things out in
the Gulf of Mexico, but I wouldn't say that just
as a sort of honorable mention the cool idea. Of course,
a lot of people. Roswell's a household name. Most people
who keep up with this know about it. But even
if you don't, you kind of relate Roswell to the
idea of UFOs or other worldly visitors or something to
that effect. And I would just make a mention that
those famous pictures or maybe infamous pictures of what looks
like people holding up ten boil or aluminum oil, those
pictures of Jesse Marcel and General Roger Amy were taken
in Fort Worth for a public media shoot to really
kind of dissuade the public from there being any real
concern about flying saucers and that those were actually just
parts of, you know, a weather balloon, and whether that
was really the case or not that guy in the
picture there, and these are housed at the Roswell's International
UFO Museum and Research Center. But it's pretty cool to
see that they have them. I've seen them here at
the local campus at University of Texas and Arlington has
these copies or the originals, the negatives, and Jesse Marcel
there came out later saying whoever he was holding he
did not think was the original material he originally saw,
and that the original material was not made on this earth,
and that's just his claim. A lot of people contest
to that, but I would say that, you know, it's
interesting that all of that, the story of Roswell, how
big that is. Those pictures that helped to really give
it some context and some kind of reference point. We're
taken here in Fort Worth, Texas and like my hometown area,
so it's kind of any thing that happened in forty
seven interesting.
Speaker 1: I wanted to show you something here and we were
talking about airships earlier, and check this out.
Speaker 2: This was the Simeon.
Speaker 1: Perkins diary of October twelfth, seventeen ninety six, basically talking
about witnessing a ship up in the air with figures
on it. And I'm not sure if this talks about
lights coming down or not, but I mean so, I mean,
you know, we think of the airships as what you
you know, were saying in the late eighteen hundreds, but
there were other accounts you know, that pop up now
and then. I just thought that was interesting. Anyone can
find that online. Simeon Perkins Diary.
Speaker 2: Very cool. Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 1: So we are we're only five minutes away from closing
off of KGRA, so we didn't really have any time
to you know, have any call ins, but I'd like
to continue on if that's okay with you, and just
to let the people at KGr know, I have a
large Scranton on next week, we'll be back with him.
It's up in the air whether I'm going to be
going to Washington, d C.
Speaker 2: For the hearing.
Speaker 1: If it does happen, sounds like it will be happening
on the thirteenth.
Speaker 2: I was at the last one.
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm going to make this one just
because of a situation is kind of conflicting, so I'm
not going to may not be able to make that
one in particular, but anyway, I just thought i'd say
goodbye for now to all those people over KGr A Radio,
and we'll see you next week. I'd like to continue
on if we can shift gears here. I will check
to see if there's, you know, any questions that came in, but.
Speaker 2: I'd like to.
Speaker 1: Continue on with another case. I think the Aurorer one
is fascinating. The one question I have how close did
they ever come to actually exhuoming that body?
Speaker 3: Well, I think that's a really great question, and I
think it's important to resolve some of the mystery of
the case overall, and I'll just say that kind of
picking up really quick into the eighties, they made a
movie is sort of writing the coattails of ET at
the time about a friendly alien movie, and so that
really didn't do much to help enliven the case. You know,
in the nineties, it's a fun film. You can watch
it on YouTube for free. But you know, in the
nineties they had one hundredth anniversary, so it made some news,
but it didn't really rile up enough people to try
to make any real attempt at action. But it wasn't
until the two thousands that the History Channel got involved.
John Greenwald you mentioned earlier, actually did his first documentary
on Aurora. They couldn't get access to the well, but
they talked about the grave site. But a few years
later they had a show called the UFO Hunters, and
the UFO Hunters did go out there. They did unseal
the well, and this was thanks to Ken Sherry, who
I mentioned earlier, who helped to get all this worked out.
They sent pat Uskert down the well and they sent
the other guys over to the grave with ground penetrating radar. Now,
nothing was found from the well. They did test the water.
I don't think they found any strong breeding or indication
of anything anomalous. But what they could find over the
grave that they could really pinpoint. Based upon that original
stone and some other things that they used to sort
of triangulate the location, they basically determined that there is
a small child sized grave at that location, but they
were unable to determine the contents of the grave and
see what it actually was or what was really inside,
and who knows, if it's a body, could be dust.
I've been told by people at the historical community there
that they actually transferred bodies from an older cemetery, and
I've heard that that claim is actually contested as well,
even by people from the historical community. So there's a
lot of question marks. But it sounds like the idea
is that that's probably the closest that's happened. In the seventies,
it put it halts on any real I mean, people
were ready to come digging, you know, and then fifty
years later there hasn't really been much that's happened. There
has been a large stone marker that was recently moved,
but the main thing I'd say that helps to kind
of shed any light about that situation. Is the non
invasive technique of ground penetrating radar or GPR that can
be used in a lot of ways archaeologically speaking, that
have been a huge innovation in techniques field investigations, and
so I think that even now it's kind of dated,
if someone could go there and acquire the APPROBA permissions
to do that now with like modern technology, who knows,
you could probably find out quite a bit whether there's
anything really there or not. It would still be a
worthwhile pursuit, I think historically. So with that, you know,
I would say that that's probably the closest that anyone's
really come. But the town we held an event there,
they raised enough funding resources to relabel the town branding,
They established a whole city monument. It's a really small town.
You drive right through if you didn't know where you're going.
And unfortunately the person at the time who was involved
the city, who helped with all of that, it was
cool that they did that, but they turned out they
apparently went rogue and turned into a huge criminal and
still a bunch of like hundreds of thousands of dollars,
if not like more than a million and that's not cool.
So they burned down the city hall, you know, destroying
all of the evidence of that. And then the museum
that would research some of the historical Aurora documents and
files and city information burned down last year, and so
really unfortunate, strange fires. I don't know that there's any
connection between all of that, but it's just unfortunate either way,
how we lose history. So I'm doing what I can
to keep track of that. But you know, as far
as a real investigative effort, you know, hopefully there can
be more. But I would say for anyone who's interested
to check out the two thousand and eight episode of
the UFO Hunters. I think it's called The First Contact. Yep, yeah, yeah,
I talked to him about that.
Speaker 2: I remember.
Speaker 1: But here's here's a question, and I want to go
into a different one after this. Have you ever interviewed
I don't know if you know of this particular case
where there was a huge triangle craft witness overs property.
Speaker 2: Are you familiar with that?
Speaker 3: There are veryou strangular cases. I mean, if I had
maybe a little bit more information on that, it doesn't
sound particularly familiar. Although I do know there have been
like in sixty five, nineteen sixty five, I think in Damon, Texas,
or there's one sixty five, but there's one around there
a Sherman. Perhaps that was an enormous triangular object seen
by law enforcement, and that's probably a different case, but
that I think just goes to show that people are
seeing triangular objects. They're not just seeing discs or amorphous lights.
But apparently there are triangular objects that are seeing and mixes. Again,
wonder if they are hours there is, what's going on
with that. I'm not sure about that particularly one, but yeah,
I'd be glad to find out more if anyone would
like to, you know, get connected and share about what
they know.
Speaker 1: I wrote him when he first posted that, and someone said,
isn't that Stephenville But that was a different thing. But anyway,
hopefully he'll he'll post where that was in particular. But
let's there was a case was in eighteen eighty three,
also in Texas. Marpha lights.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is cool. This is a little bit of
a tangent off from the main a UFO. You could
tiperary outlook of like mechanical nuts bolts craft. So the
Marpha lights is a mystery light phenomenon that people have
seen out in the deserts of West Texas, the Chuahuan
Desert for years. The first documented sighting is in eighteen
eighty three a man named Robert Ellison, and he basically
shared that he could see these strange lights, but that
people had already been seeing them for years and thought
that they were either campfires or some kind of ghost light,
like a supernatural phenomenon, and people would ride out into
the desert and try to look for these things. But
that's the earliest known recording is in eighteen eighty three. Now,
from two thousand and one until today, there's this viewing
platform that's been erected. It's looking out at a place
called Mitchell Flat, which is way out in the desert.
The light phenomenon that can be viewed or witnessed there
is not just a singular issue that someone saw once
in history and that was it, But it's an ongoing
phenomenon that you can go out there and check out
pretty much any time of the year or the night,
not during the day, but at night. So what you're
looking at here is a series of pictures that I
took with my camcorder. I think this was about five
or six years ago. The top one top row are
all four lights moving, and they move all in perfect
synchronicity with one another. The second row is a group
of what looked like one light that merged or split
into two and have a sort of core in the center.
And the last row is one light over a like
a exposure of about a minute that seemed to change
colors or the light frequencies were affecting my camera's ability
to interpret what it was looking at. So I don't
know what the Marpha lights are. Some people consider that
they're a natural geophysical phenomenon, perhaps due to Pizzio electricity,
quartz and the tectonic plating, all these ideas, which are
pretty cool. And I think that it's not an interactive phenomenon,
meaning it's probably not an intelligent life form, although that
would be interesting that has been speculated. But they are
some kind of light phenomenon that basically shows that there's movement,
there's a sort of a pattern, and that probably could
be what helps us understand a little bit more about
what these mystery lights are that people see not just
in Marfa but other places around the world. This is
just one of them and there's also other ideas of
what's called Bragg Road or Ghost Light Road in north
of Houston, Texas. I've been to, which is kind of similar.
But these aren't. These marfl mystery lights are not way
up in the sky. They're way over the desert, hovering.
You can see the illumination of the ground below. But
it is in this I'd say important part of including
this in the talk of UFOs, because you know, it
just goes to show that UFOs are again not one
unified objective idea other than there's just something unidentified or unknown,
so whatever those are are very confusing. There's a historical
marker out there that talks about and explained phenomenon, and
this is another marker there that talks about the history
of the lights. So definitely interesting place to go. It's
got a twenty four hour rest stop there at the
viewing area. So I always recommend for anyone who wants
to see you at UFO go check out the Marpha
lights any time of year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I have. I got to do that someday.
Speaker 1: And you know the strangest thing about that is, you know,
well these pictures again, you know, I'm assuming that you
just pieced all this together, so you know, just to
give an overall visual. But you said the top lights
are in formation, and they do they actually move information.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what I noticed, and this was just for sometimes
that you have one and then you'd have another one
pop up and then maybe one another or two more
or more, and they'd all move together sporadically, almost like
a butterfly. And again, this isn't way up in the sky.
This is just way out in the desert, like on
the horizon, and it's at night time. And so the
first one you see of four lights was one photo.
This is a composite image here of like the different
lights you know that have been put together in one image.
But the top row of four lights was all seen
at once, and they all moved in the one way
eventually fade away. It just fade all the way back
to one. The best explanation for them, essentially is that
they've been able to determine because process of duplication or
through repetition. You know, you have to be able to
document something and be able to demonstrably show that it
can be repeated in a scientific experiment. So one of
the challenges is that the only thing that they can
that scientific investigations have done to show this is that
basically car headlights have been seen and have been misinterpreted
as what we call the Marpha lights. But apparently they've
been seen since before there were even cars or highways.
So something is out there, and whether it's a tangible
form or entity, or it's a products a causality of
some you know, issued geomagnetically or physically, whatever it is.
There's a pretty cool book, number of books, but this
is one of them called The Mysteries of the Marphal
Lights Revealed, another good book about the investigations done, and
it's just a number of the important investigative parts about that.
How you know, some people do refer to it as
you know, geophysical and some people think that maybe they
are like beings that have been there forever or something.
So ideas like that float around, but you know, that
is one of the ongoing mysteries that you can go
and check out anytime. Marfa, Texas.
Speaker 1: Now it comes to mind brown mountain lights. I don't
know if you've heard of them. That's in Virginia, I believe,
I can't remember exactly where that is. I think it
is a West Virginia, there's a brown Mountain lights and
I've had someone that had a film of that on
this show. And you know, I believe you said there
was a high copper content. You're talking about quartz. It
seems like it's associated a lot of times with some
type of mineral or geological type of situation. And there's
also in the Bridgewater Triangle, the Hackamack Swamp, I think
it's called something like that, that they see these lights
and they have seen them, you know, in the nineteenth
century as well. So really it's really quite interesting and
makes you know, most likely all these are natural but
very strange phenomena.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I think either way, whether they are what
we could say is naturally or like terrestrial based or not,
there's still a lot we can learn. And that's great,
even if it's not always going to end up being
alien space or something. I think it's important to also
keep that in mind, is that we can still learn
a lot.
Speaker 1: Right, And so what I'd like to do is if
we keep talking just a little bit longer, I don't know,
maybe another half hour or fifteen minutes to half an hour,
but I'd like to talk about two cases.
Speaker 2: That I have an interest in.
Speaker 1: One of them, of course, is a cash landrum and the
other one is the Lubuk Lubbock Lubbock I always say it.
Speaker 2: Wrong, Yeah, no, the Lublic lights. Which one would you
like to talk about first.
Speaker 3: Well, we can get into the lights first, Lubbock lights.
I think that one's important to just mention because of
very similar to some of the ideas of the more
notable UFO cases out there. One we mentioned earlier the
Stephenville some people say the Stephenville Lights or Steve Blifo.
This was documented. This is a series of photographs taken
by not just scientists but professors there at the Technical
college of the time now it's Texas Tech. And this
was seen by multiple people leading up to this. This
is an interesting idea that is proposed that these lights,
as you can see, are individual lights that maybe came
together to form a massive delta or V shaped craft.
And so the idea that was put forward by some
of the other alternative considerations with that these were plovers
or plover birds reflecting lights off of the newly installed
street lamps nearby in town. And this was also used
as a way to investigate some of the early government
military efforts. It was something that Rupe Belt wrote about
in his book. It's actually one of the cover photographs
for the Historic UFO book by Edward Rupolt. And Project
Blue Book is as a big proponent of this case,
and you know, it was something that I think they
thought highly enough was that we've got it, just like
the whole Stephenville issue. If we've got something this big
flying over a major city, something needs to be checked into.
So that's an interesting idea that in nineteen fifty one
there's this enormous craft potentially or plover birds if you like,
flying over enough, getting enough attention to warrant the official
investigation of the government. And if you want a fun
recreation of this, you can watch episode three of season
one of Project Blue Book, the fictionalized version on the
History Channel that is all about the Leviric lights incident.
So it's you know, it's a fictionalized version of the show.
Some people can't stand that about it, but you know,
have someone and watch this episode about the lubric lights
on the Project Blue Book show. And so it's a
pretty interesting episode in UFO history from Texas.
Speaker 2: Now, let me ask you this, what are these arrows?
Speaker 1: And by the way all these images are going to
be for you that's listening in audio. All of these
images are in the show notes. You can check them
out if you'd like, and there's always a link to
the show notes on the audio podcast. So what is
the arrow in all these images? One or two arrows?
Speaker 3: I think they seem to indicate separate or individual lights
that were witnessed nearby but weren't part of the main
formation as it seems, and that's to be used to
point out I think that the idea of these moving
objects were not all uniform, but they or that they
weren't all a unified object, but they actually all had
some independence, and I think that's just to point out
the notable independent ones from the main core group that
show movement, because you can see the ways that these
main lights work together is pretty even. Then you know,
if you go from top left to top right, bottom
left to bottom right, they seem to move in a
way that is separating them in giving the impression of motion.
So this is a really fantastic photograph considering that how
hard it is to find even modern legitimate photographs of UFO.
Is there any unknown objects? Extremely impressive for nineteen fifty one.
I'd say, right.
Speaker 1: Now, you talk about the witnesses, and there are from
that tech school, and it seems to me that they
would know the difference between birds flying and you know,
birds above even if they are being reflected, they could
see that they're you know, flapping, that you would be
able to see some type of movement that would be
you know, indicative of birds in flight. I'm just this
is all speculation because I don't know, but it just
seems to me that they would be intelligent enough to say, oh,
that's you know, just birds.
Speaker 2: But they actually took pictures of.
Speaker 1: What they were seeing, so they must have believed it
was you know, more of just the reflections, you know.
I mean, is there in the witness accounts are they
talking about they look like actually like lights themselves.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that it seems to be described as
individual orb like lights that seem to form a shape.
It's hard to say that anyone really did see a
bird in the sense that it was obviously a bird,
but I think it's really interesting to consider that. As
you mentioned, it's one of the challenges we face. I
think as a society, it's ingrained with us to have
a plea to authority. Argument of authority is essentially that, well,
if they are scientists and they are professors at a university,
then they should have the know how and the authority
of the discipline to be able to make that determination.
Argument for authority sometimes gets the best of us, because
you know, it could be that there were some birds seen,
but it could be that there was a genuine phenomenon
that was witnessed that was nothing to do with birds.
So I think it's challenging us in some way to
know that even experts, and I'm not saying UFO experts,
I'm saying scientific experts and their respective disciplines are sometimes
wrong and sometimes don't get things correct despite their background
or their skills. It's important to remember that. So I
don't know, I would say that just this being one
of the most notable UFO photographs helps to establish it
as giving it a face, so to speak, in this
whole field and study, because without something like that, it
really just becomes an account based upon testimony, and not
just worded testimony that's been transcribed. But here is a
physical representation of what people saw, and again enough so
to give it consideration beyond just a few folks in
town thought they might have seen birds to warrant official
investigation from the government out and say, what's going on
in this you know, strange way out of nowhere Texas
town that obviously birds are not has enough happening to
get the federal side of things involved. So I think
that it could be that maybe some people did see birds.
I don't know that that accounts for the totality of
the Lubbic Lights incident, but it has actually had an
impact on their town. They don't have a big festival
or anything, but there's a publication called the Lubbic Lights
that actually is proud to say that we're named this
because of our incident from fifty one, and they just
posted something about that, which I've shared on some social
media and stuff. But it's cool to see that, you know,
people are embracing of this. It wasn't something I think
people took as a an omen of invasion, like. It
wasn't a negatively interpreted event that I think had an
effect on the town in a bad way. But it
did obviously put Lubbock on the map for the UFO
crowd to remember the historic incident, you know, from all
these years back. At this point, these photographs really stand
I think the test of time to show that people
have been trying to capture something like this, whether it
shows movement, it shows objects, whether it shows birds or not.
It's really important to see that people have tried to
make the effort of doing what we now think is
sort of like a you know, a modern attempt at
investigating UFOs. This has been happening for well over half
a century at this point.
Speaker 1: You know, it seems to me this would be very
easily provable if you have the exact location where that
picture was taken, to repeat it even right after, you know,
if they were actually plovers flying. You know, so this
is right, Lubbick is right near the shore shoreline, is it?
Speaker 3: It's definitely. It's all all the way out in West Texas.
It's like probably five hours from me here in the
Dallas for what we're there, so not near the ocean
or water at all.
Speaker 2: So why would plovers be there?
Speaker 1: You know, they're shorebirds, that's right, unless there's a water,
a body of water.
Speaker 2: They could be another b.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's the challenge of why's it seems
so maybe ridiculous that the official explanation was the closest
type of explanation that made any sense to people who
had say in the matter, was that these must have
been birds reflecting the lights that were newly installed in
town like two miles away. So it doesn't really hold up.
But it's it's just a difficult type of thing that,
you know, it's hard. I think since could be made
out of that being people seeing birds, but it seems
like a stretch to me. But maybe you know, so
I think that it's important to see how Yeah, it's
it's definitely landlocked, it's nowhere near the water, and it's
it's not just seen by some people out in their backyard.
It's seen by people in town, people in the community, academics,
you know, and they thought enough of it to try
to document it by taking pictures and being ready to
do that because it was over a series of nights
and so it's not just a one time thing.
Speaker 2: Oh how about that? Wow?
Speaker 1: Okay, Well that's to me. I always thought that was
an interesting one.
Speaker 2: And so many you know, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, Texas is so huge, you know, I mean, it's
just such a vast amount of land. Like you said,
that's five hours from you. But you know, to travel
from one if you were traveling to each corner of
the state.
Speaker 2: There was a.
Speaker 1: Friend that I had back in the seventies when he
was in high school. He did a report. I think
he said every at that time, every single person in
the world could fit three to an acre or something
in Texas. It was something ridiculous. I mean, that's how
much land there is there, which is so vast, and
I know when I've driven across it, it seems like
it takes forever. Cash Landrum nineteen eighty This is a
really to me. You know, my thoughts already is that
it was a government experiment gone wrong. That's that's kind
of the bottom line of what I think it is.
But I want to know what you think about the
whole thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's when you asked earlier, what's like
the one case that stands out to me, It's hard
not to say this one. And I think the reason
why is because it pinpoints several issues about the UFO
subject and UFO culture that I think is a difficult
area to focus in on, Because people want things to
be more exotic than they actually are. People want there
to be alien spaceships, people want there to be alien
beings and all this, and I think the very well
could be. I don't try to make any assertions or
bold claims that I are, you know, way outside of
my ability to make those determinations. I think it's all interesting,
and I think that there are some challenges with certain cases.
The thing about the Cash Landom case, I would say
the Definitive book that's been put out by John Schuster
has some pretty cool artwork that shows what these three
people witnessed in December of nineteen eighty. What you have
happened basically December twenty ninth. You have been Cash, Vicky
Landrum and her grandson Kolby Lantrum driving down an old
country road. They were trying to find some places to
play bingo and maybe eat, and after a night of
looking around for things to do, they eventually were riding
back on one of these old country roads and they
started hearing and seeing several helicopters, and this got their
attention because amongst these helicopters was a strange square or
diamond shaped object that seemed to be emitting light and
getting lower and lower. This whole convoy was very confusing
because they counted up to nearly two dozen black some
of them double rotors, Chinook helicopters, military helicopters, all surrounding
this strange, glowing diamond shaped object which started, unfortunately to
go down, seeming to be in distress, shooting an emitting
light or fire flames down into the road in front
of them, causing them to have to stop. And this
was a pretty incredible thing to observe for them because
the grandson at the time, Colby, asked his grandmother, Vicky,
what is that up there in the sky, and to
a la any concern or fear, she had told him
that's Jesus, this is the Second Coming, And unfortunately that
wasn't the case at all. It's very tragic what happened
to them. Betty ended up getting out of the car
and Vicky kind of got out, and so they're seeing
this giant craft, this object shooting emitting light down below,
burning and scorching the road. They could feel this immense
heat searing them actually to the point that they get
back in the car and one of them put their
hands on the dash and it melted into the dash
with an imprint. And eventually this whole entourage took off
and kept on going and they made it safely back home. Unfortunately,
their hair started falling out, they had they had blisters
all over their body, terribly sick, throwing up and we're
not doing very well. And they attempted to sue the
Air Force because they were under the impression that this
was some kind of experimental craft that was being used
maybe in you know, secret or something that affected them
and made them unwell, and it seemed that they had
obvious and very bad signs of radiation poisoning. They didn't
die immediately from this, but it affected their lives greatly.
And I want to give you a shout out, Marek,
because you actually have had Colby Landrum, who was now
an adult, one of the one of the few appearances
he's ever made in his adult life, to tell about
this historic yet tragic event. And I think it's really
important that we we can note that you've done that
to be able to share with this. It's incredibly difficult
for anyone to come forward about this. And I would
say that it's also important to note that they in
no way ever insinuated that they thought this was an
alien or extraterrestrial craft or technology, but at every chance
that they could. They tried to hold the government and
military accountable, which very likely never happened. There are some
people who find some challenges with the story. I think
it's very unfortunate what happened to these people. Colby Landrum
is the only living witness and victim I would say,
of the incident at this point. This took place north
of Houston, in an area now called Huffman in Montgomery County.
And it's not something that has a historical marker. But
the picture that you pulled up first is actually a
photograph I took two and a half years ago of
the original location. It's been redone. One of the interesting
things about what John Schusler of Muffawn describes and their
investigation is that a clandestine cleanup crew came over and
did the road almost immediately, but there was apparently a
black spot. I got this location from a witness who
said they lived there, they knew what happened while they
were there. While it happened in a dark circle was
left on the road, and so that all apparently has
been redone several times now. It's been a number of years,
forty years. And I should also note that the curious
thing about this case, maybe there's not any directly as
soon as that half a world away over in Suffolk,
England Rundalsham Forest, you have the Rundalstrom Forest UFO incident
happening basically at the same exact time December of twenty
sixth seven, twenty eighth and twenty ninth, and you know,
the last day is probably one of the more notable
days for that. So it's interesting, you know, the rendalsm
UFO incident is the most notable UK or England UFO story,
and in both instances you have people in close proximity
to an unknown object and being affected by it physically,
or that they are claimed to have been affected by it,
And so I don't know that there's any direct connection
to that, but I would say that, you know, the
one in Texas I think is very unfortunate because they
never that to my knowledge, received any medical aid that was,
you know, from anyone being held accountable for this. But
I also wonder, you know, when else would you ever
see twenty three helicopters all at once, Maybe an air show,
maybe a maneuver or demonstration or wargame scenario being conducted.
But it's very rare that anyone sees that many helicopters
on any basis. So to my outlook on that is
to also wonder were those people affected, Did those people
and those helicopters know what they were even doing or
what they were next to, or that we'll ever hear
from any of them coming forward about this. Now, there
have been people who've come forward to say, well, yeah,
that's objects, you know, like Richard Dody claims that this
object came from Area fifty one. Now he can claim
that he can also say anything. And it's also difficult
to really pin down whether you can trust someone like that.
And I've talked to him, I've interviewed him face to face,
and I think that you know, people get the wrong
impression about guilty by association. If you talk to this
person in eupology, then you're suddenly you've lost all integrity.
And I think that that's really I mean, I get
it in some part of me thinks that that's all nonsense,
because if you're doing something to talk to people, it
doesn't necessarily equal advocacy. I don't think that it's necessarily
that you people you know, like you have anyone on
your show doesn't immediately mean that you're in agreement with
them or that you believe everything they are sharing. Right.
So it's one of those things where you know, I've
met Doty, have talked to him. He says that this
object came from every fifty one. I don't know about that.
I think that's a wild claim that there's no way
to prove that at all. It's very interesting. I think
that it very well could be an object from a
nearby facility, perhaps even from here in Texas. There are
apparently a number of secretive underground it or military installations
here in Texas that could easily get a number of
those helicopters out up in the air in a very
short amount of time, specifically for a circumstance like this. Now,
the weird thing about it is we don't know if
those helicopters were already there, were there in pursuit of
the objects as it was potentially going down, if they
were escorting it. A lot of speculation. So I think
that my outlook on it is that I think that
it's an experimental or maybe a craft that was having
some distress, and if there were pilots in there, that's
really unfortunate because you know, if we're talking about two
people passers by two or three really that got affected
by this from cars view away, like imagine that the
pilots inside. It's hard to say, you know, and I
don't want to wildly speculate on anything really, but I
would say that it's important to keep in mind that
there are a lot of challenging factors about the Cash
Lange and that make us that should make us reconsider
some of those positions that we hold close to our heart.
Like you know, maybe you know some of all these
things are et or they're not or whatever it is.
I think that's important to realize that some people are
being physically affected and not for the better, and that
these you know, Cash and Landrum, all of them never
assumed this was an alien spaceship, and they tried to
rightfully sue the Air Force because that's the only people
that they could consider could have been responsible, and that
they couldn't. It didn't work, They couldn't sue them. It
never turned out in their favor, and they just said
that they were never accountable. So in the event that
you really trusted that answer that it wasn't really the
Air Force, that's almost even more wild to think that, Well,
then who who really was it? Right, because it wasn't
the Air Force or maybe any other known branch of
the military, and they're not going to come out and
be like, wow, well we were doing testing in the area.
You know, there's never any accountability been made by any
government military about that. It makes it really kind of
an eye opener to consider, well, we haven't seen this
pop up in an air show, and maybe there's a
good reason. Maybe these experimental things weren't working out and
that's one got out of hand, or who knows. So
that's funny. It was it was a you know, nuclear
propulsion or whatever it's going on.
Speaker 1: The nuclear propulsion idea makes a lot of sense, and
I know they were working with Stanton Freeman talked about,
you know, him being involved in looking into that at
some point maybe in Los Alamos or Westinghouse or somewhere.
Speaker 2: I can't remember where it was.
Speaker 1: Where he said he actually was, you know, they were
talking about nuclear propulsion back in the sixties, I thought,
he said, but on one of my shows he talked
about it.
Speaker 2: But anyway, yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Mean for them to dig up the road and everything,
and it sounds it sounds like radiation to me, you know,
with what they were suffering from and all that and
crazy and this is a you know, someone saying that
Richard Doty claimed that cash landerm case was not military
testing nuclear power craft.
Speaker 2: So I don't know where that.
Speaker 1: Comes from, Roger, I'm not really sure, but you know,
what to believe, Like, it's kind of hard to believe,
you know, Ricktody what he's saying. You know, he's on
He's getting a lot of press these days, and I
just don't know what to think about the integrity of
what he says.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I would just say that, I mean, I've definitely heard
him say that. I don't know if it's true or not.
I don't think there's a way to prove that it's true.
I'm not necessarily saying that I believe that. I just
I would say that it's interesting when people can chime in,
if you have a foothold in the eufology community and
you chime in on a case that's historic that no
one's really around. I mean, like you said, no one's
COBE's not out there on shows's not at events and conferences.
He actually probably wants nothing to do with any of
this stuff, which right, you know, it makes a lot
of sense. But you know, it's easy to comment on
a case about a very sensational concept that you can't
corroborate at all. It's sensational and maybe that's the intention.
And I don't know, but I would say that it's
important to just know that people have chimed in about
things like the Cash Lantern case and much more recent
times in an attempt to either say it's this or that,
And you know, I think it's important to just not
lose track that these are important cases now forty years
ago that really should make us reconsider some of the
things that we've seen and heard. And again, it's just
interesting that it coincides with the Rendalsian Force case as well.
Speaker 1: I think I'd like to end the show with this
last question for both of us. I'm not sure how
I'm going to answer it, but Terrence, we're actually not
going to be talking about the Rendalstrom Force.
Speaker 2: Thank you for that question though.
Speaker 1: So one more question for us both, what is what
do we hope to see.
Speaker 2: Happening by the end of twenty twenty four. Well, you
go first.
Speaker 3: I just think, you know, I'll just say this in closing,
I just want to give a shout out really quick
to a lot of people have taken the time to
put some research together about Texas UFOs. We could go
on for hours. I'll just and anyone can go and
posies later on Close Encounters in the Texas kind by
my buddy Mitchell Whittington. Newer book Lone Star Saucers by
another friend of mine Nate Riddle. Pretty cool catalogue and
then of course one of the best better ones I
would say out there at Texas uf HO tales my
cock and about Eric as well. And so I think
it's really important to see that this is a you know,
been documented for a long time, and that what is
important about the historical cases that it can give us
some reference to what's happening now. I am not a
big proponent of the disclosure movement, and I'm not saying
that I am in disagreement with it, but I think
that it's it's a bit of a pipe dream for
a lot of people who think that the next fixed
thing is that that there's going to come out and
say they're here. And as as interesting as that would be,
I actually tend to consider that I'm hopeful that there
are some very serious people, you know, anthropologists and people
who are in the appropriate disciplines to manage navigating the
subsequent release of information pertaining to something that would eventually
have to be revealed in the extent that people think disclosure.
Is this thing going to happen like all at once.
Why I say that is because all these things that
have happened over the last few years, there's a lot
in the media that's never been discussed before, a lot
in government and in Congress that's happening that's never really
happened in this way, it's important to keep eyes on
this topic and issue. It's important to also, I think,
not necessarily just be persuaded by what looks and sounds good,
because there's a lot of fraternization, there's a lot of unfortunate,
a lot of drama when it comes to the research
in the community of people. I think it's important to
also see that there are motives and agendas at play
by various parties with various interests. I think that when
it comes to what's happening in government, we should all
pay attention. We don't necessarily have to say that, you know,
we believe or have to go with what's being said.
We should just make sure we're at least aware of
the current events and issues taking place, like the recent
upcoming hearings going on and just like a little over
a week, I think, and that's important to know that,
you know, we can at least see what was happening,
whether there's any real motion or momentum to this or not.
I think it's really something that we have to think
about in a different way than suddenly they're just going
to announce things happening. And I would just say overall,
in my perspective, I'm hopeful that things will continue to
develop in a way that is encouraging of steps in
society towards embracing and being open minded to learning more
about the world and beyond of what we live with,
you know, here together and then what could potentially be beyond
our world in a way that helps us open our
mind to the possibility that normally are we not alone.
But hopefully that'll make us come closer together as humans,
as humanity, and in a way that's going to be helpful,
you know, in uniting us rather than dividing us. And
I think it's going to be a tough set of
hurdles to go through. But I do think that, you know,
with small steps of releasing information regarding not just you know,
revealed or previously concealed information, like people want the government
to come clean, I don't know that that's ever going
to happen in my view. Disclosure is this idea that
the government's going to come out and say, Okay, sorry, guys,
we've been lying all you know for almost a century
or more maybe and we're sorry and this is actually
what's going on. I don't think that's ever going to happen.
I don't think there's any accountability ever going to happen.
I mean, we could still see that same thing with
JFK and all this. I would say, though, what an
alternative route would be is to be hopeful that there
are people in place that have the ability and resources
to integrate these concepts and smaller increments or adjustable increments
that develop with potential findings that are going to be
current and relevant rather than historic in a way that
you can maybe lend credence to looking back at other
historic instances that might change our outlook all together. So anyway,
I would just say that let's pay attention, what's going on.
Let's keep our minds open to the possibilities, and we
don't have to necessarily fall into one category another. We're
all doing what we can not everyone's on the same page,
and I don't think that that's ever going to happen,
but we can at least know that, you know, the
more we are learning about our place in the universe,
it will help bring us together. And I'm hopeful that
we can be able to have more compassion towards one
another because of that.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, what he said, that's what I'll have to say.
That was perfectly said. Thank you so much, and yeah,
what else could I hope for? But also for something
to bring us together, you know, and we could really
use that these days. And I really appreciate it. It's
it was you did not let me down. It's you
did this show wonderfully, just like I thought you would be.
Speaker 2: And it's been a real pleasure having you on.
Speaker 1: And I want to remind everyone. You can go to
the text in this program and you can see the
what's the name of the Texas what's it called again?
Speaker 3: The webs Texas UFO Network, and you can also check
out a lot of the media and things I've been
involved with on the Vortex as well.
Speaker 2: Excellent. Thank you so much, it's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 3: Thanks Martin, appreciate it's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, take care all right everyone. So we'll be back
next week as I said, with Larde Scranton, and remember
to keep your eyes to the sky. Thank you to everything,