Speaker 1: When it comes to tokenization, you have to be careful
Speaker 1: not to be over excited because you can tokenize. And
Speaker 1: I said, that looks awesome on paper, but if you
Speaker 1: don't do anything about it, then it doesn't help. It's useless.
Speaker 1: It's just a new technology on the top of an asset.
Speaker 1: Tokenizing is step one of a six step process.
Speaker 2: It seems like the race right now is with stable
Speaker 2: coins and tokenized funds or tokenized assets.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
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Speaker 2: welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony
Speaker 2: Edward and joining me today is Eric Pacini, who is
Speaker 2: the CEO of Hashgraph. Eric, it's great to have you on.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Excited to be here, absolutely, Eric, I've been a big
Speaker 2: fan of Adera for many years. I'm an h BAR
Speaker 2: token holder, and I'm excited to dive into the latest
Speaker 2: updates around hashgraf and all the great things you and
Speaker 2: the folks are doing. Let's kick it off with your background.
Speaker 2: Tell us a bit about yourself and your professional background.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, thank you for being an h BAR older.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I started my journey in broad chain
Speaker 1: back in twenty thirteen when I was a partner at
Speaker 1: Deloids and discover that crypto you know, craziness from a
Speaker 1: technology point of you. I'm an engineer, so from a
Speaker 1: Chroma technology point of view, I was very excited about
Speaker 1: the big one white paper, and I realized that as Deloid,
Speaker 1: we needed to be ready to engage with our clients
Speaker 1: on that topic of crypto, which John turns into the
Speaker 1: broad chain discussion, the Web three discussion and denity is
Speaker 1: and all of this. So I've done that for many years.
Speaker 1: It was really exciting to start something new within the
Speaker 1: big organization just with a lot of friends. A lot
Speaker 1: of people are now steed at Deloid or left Aloid
Speaker 1: and our you know, a little bit everywhere in the
Speaker 1: world working on different crypto projects, which is really exciting.
Speaker 1: I decided to go and started a company with other
Speaker 1: individuals that I was helping to start the company, so
Speaker 1: we did that or supply chain, blockchain and supply chain.
Speaker 1: We did that for two years. That left to go
Speaker 1: back to a big firm, IBM, because of a friend
Speaker 1: of mine asked me to go and help him with innovation,
Speaker 1: brock chain and new things in an industry that I
Speaker 1: didn't really know, which was healthcare and life science industry.
Speaker 1: So I learned a ton on how that industry functioned,
Speaker 1: the goods are bad and the ugly, right, and then
Speaker 1: decided to go back to the core, which is Hetera
Speaker 1: and be part of that team. Start in March of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, so join men Sending and the founders
Speaker 1: of EA at that time. And I'm currently the CEO
Speaker 1: of ash Graph, which is think of age graph at
Speaker 1: the lab team behind Hetera. So we do products and
Speaker 1: engineering and security and develops and marketing and communication and
Speaker 1: a lot of things for the entire ecosystem. So it's
Speaker 1: an exciting time for us because of many things I'm
Speaker 1: sure we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's awesome. You certainly have a platter of experience
Speaker 2: at in the world of blockchain and at some very
Speaker 2: big companies. You mentioned de Lloyd and IBM. When you
Speaker 2: were at IBM, were they using the hyper Ledger fabric protocols.
Speaker 1: I think that's most one most of Yeah, most of
Speaker 1: what we were building back then was on hyperdage or
Speaker 1: fabric because that was the IBM platform. Right. We did
Speaker 1: actually read something very interesting. We build an application where
Speaker 1: you could collect your healthcare information from different sources, right,
Speaker 1: your doctor, your pharmacy, the hospitals, your live results into
Speaker 1: one place, and you could decide how to manage this
Speaker 1: information your set and share that information with different parties
Speaker 1: depending on the need. So you were now in control
Speaker 1: of your own information, which was a really good case
Speaker 1: for blockchain, really good case for getting the custody of
Speaker 1: your own personal data on your phone. Right, So we
Speaker 1: did that then it was it was pretty successful, and
Speaker 1: then COVID started uh and we actually did a version
Speaker 1: of that solution just for COVID, so people could use
Speaker 1: that solution to collect their test results and their vaccination
Speaker 1: status and share that back to different entities when they
Speaker 1: needed to do this. So we did that for the
Speaker 1: state of New York, for example, and it was called
Speaker 1: the Excess your Pass if you were in New York
Speaker 1: during that time.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, I did not know that that that this
Speaker 2: technology was used in healthcare and in that way during
Speaker 2: the COVID situation. So with hyper ledger fabric, I'm curious
Speaker 2: about the dynamic of permission blockchains versus public because hyper
Speaker 2: Ledger was permission. Do you see a world where both
Speaker 2: will exist that companies may use permission for certain you know,
Speaker 2: private information like healthcare data, but public maybe for more
Speaker 2: finance and things like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's think it's a little bit more detailed
Speaker 1: than that. Right, you have public and private and permission
Speaker 1: and permission less, right, so you can mix and much
Speaker 1: those four things. Obviously, Bitcoin is public permission less, so
Speaker 1: anything goes right, no one controlled it. Then you have
Speaker 1: the permissioned private, which is a periodure of fabric which
Speaker 1: was a limpted number of nodes controlled by the consortium,
Speaker 1: whoever that consortium is. And it's private because the network
Speaker 1: itself is not visible to the public. Right. So you
Speaker 1: have those two extremes, and then you have flavors in between.
Speaker 1: What we do is at Eedera, for example, is we
Speaker 1: are public blod chain, but we are permissioned, right, so
Speaker 1: you cannot decide tomorrow to run a node on e Era.
Speaker 1: You need to be part of the council in order
Speaker 1: to do this. We need to be accepted in the council,
Speaker 1: and we help you run your own node. But it's
Speaker 1: public because you can go on an explorer and you
Speaker 1: can see all the transactions happending on the right. So
Speaker 1: that's that's a mix of both things, which is you know,
Speaker 1: permission but public.
Speaker 2: Interesting. So to your point, there's going to be a
Speaker 2: bit of mix and matching here depending on the need,
Speaker 2: depending on the industry that's looking to adopt this technology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that way, And you know, we launched about six
Speaker 1: months ago now we launched a version of a DRAM
Speaker 1: which is permission still but private because we add a
Speaker 1: lot of interest from financial institutions all over the world,
Speaker 1: supply chain companies and so on asking for the same technology.
Speaker 1: Because I love of the technology that the actually you know,
Speaker 1: technology invented by human Baird is really awesome, but it
Speaker 1: could not afford to live in the public blockchain, right,
Speaker 1: because of regulatory limitations, because of data residency challenges, because
Speaker 1: of privacy shoes, right, they didn't want anyone to know
Speaker 1: that they were transacting with each other. You would see
Speaker 1: in a public ledger. You don't see that on a
Speaker 1: private leisure unless you're part of the consortium itself. So
Speaker 1: we beat this solution called ash sphere, and that's a
Speaker 1: version of it. There are that is leveraging the exact
Speaker 1: same technology, except that it's a private network as opposed
Speaker 1: to a public network.
Speaker 2: Is it any the drugs?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Is it kind of like a layer two or is
Speaker 2: it like sitting side by side and there's a bridge
Speaker 2: for a certain information.
Speaker 1: It's not AREO two. It's a side by side and
Speaker 1: a connection bridge, an interconnection between the nash sphere which
Speaker 1: is a private version and man net, which is a
Speaker 1: public version, or between ash fear themselves. You can also
Speaker 1: bridge different private versions with each other if you want to.
Speaker 2: Very interesting. So this allows those who face significant regulatory
Speaker 2: compliance and handle very sensitive information to do these transactions,
Speaker 2: whether it be banks, maybe healthcare companies and getting the
Speaker 2: blockchain benefits. But it's not open to the public.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's also a way, the way I think
Speaker 1: of it, it is, you know, it's still a brand
Speaker 1: new technology, right, so a lot of traditional organizations are
Speaker 1: going to be very concerned about exposing something to the
Speaker 1: public and they don't really know the specifics. So for
Speaker 1: them to go and say, yes, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: running on the public blockchain, it's a really hard mental barrier, right.
Speaker 1: So if it gives them a chance to do it
Speaker 1: in the private environment, which is something that they're more
Speaker 1: familiar with, and then over time they might decide, you know,
Speaker 1: I feel much more comfortable now with the technology and
Speaker 1: the code and the permission aspects and the way the
Speaker 1: technology works. Consensus mechanisms. I'm okay, now opening to the public.
Speaker 1: You know, I think that's also a journey for our clients.
Speaker 2: That makes sense. It's like a stack ground and they
Speaker 2: feel comfortable and confident and then they move it over
Speaker 2: and if they want to to the public network.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The point to the point, for the point for
Speaker 1: us is regardless of where you are as an organization
Speaker 1: in your journey of adoption, we can find you where
Speaker 1: you are. We're not going to force you to come
Speaker 1: to us. We're going to find a way a pass
Speaker 1: for you to engage with us and benefit from that
Speaker 1: awesome technology that we have at it.
Speaker 2: So, I don't know if this question makes sense. In
Speaker 2: that hash fear private chain so to speak, is the
Speaker 2: h par token also running through the rails there or not?
Speaker 1: So it's it's not. You can decide, because you actually
Speaker 1: manage this ash fear as a consortium, for example, you
Speaker 1: can decide to create your own token into that ash
Speaker 1: fere and benefit from that. The edge bar crypto itself
Speaker 1: is not used unless you are using a bridge to
Speaker 1: man that, and in that case, yes, there is an
Speaker 1: interaction with the edgebar as a cryptocurrency. There is as
Speaker 1: a token there is that is the need for exchange.
Speaker 1: But you can decide whether you have a token or not,
Speaker 1: whether you want to have that token exposed to the
Speaker 1: public or not. You can decide a lot of things,
Speaker 1: which is again the flexibility of using the technology the
Speaker 1: way you want as an organization, not the way the vendor,
Speaker 1: which it does are forcing you to do.
Speaker 2: Right now, one of the things I know HADERA has
Speaker 2: a massive governing council with some very big names like Google,
Speaker 2: IBM and so forth. Are those folks like testing on
Speaker 2: hash fear. Can you give you examples of some of
Speaker 2: the things they may be testing or piloting if you can.
Speaker 1: So that most of them are a building on public
Speaker 1: on the public leisure on the public man net, right.
Speaker 1: A few of them are doing hybrid, right. A few
Speaker 1: of them are saying I need both because they are
Speaker 1: very specific needs that needs that privacy construct or that
Speaker 1: that are right, I cannot have my transactions being verified
Speaker 1: outside of a country or a region, right, So they
Speaker 1: need this, But they also have a lot of needs
Speaker 1: for the public version, and so they usually do a
Speaker 1: mix of both with a bridging in between.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that that definitely makes sense. So it's very much
Speaker 2: going to be this hybrid adoption model, so to speak,
Speaker 2: the private aspect and then the public. So, yeah, that
Speaker 2: definitely makes sense.
Speaker 1: I've been a big fan of this model for a
Speaker 1: long time, right, I remember the early days we were
Speaker 1: finding you know, private versus public you're wrong, You're wrong.
Speaker 1: You know, that's not the way to do it, right.
Speaker 1: I don't know why we need to choose, right. The
Speaker 1: part is you don't have to choose. You can decide
Speaker 1: to engage with that technology in a lot of different ways,
Speaker 1: and then you decide over time which you want to
Speaker 1: move from one structure, one framework to another. But we
Speaker 1: shouldn't force organizations to use one step of mind versus another.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's not the way business works, right. You
Speaker 1: have to meet the business where they are.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, and the real world, you know, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of different moving parts and components in business, so
Speaker 2: it's not one size fits all. There has to be
Speaker 2: customization for different aspects of the business.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2: So some of these folks that you mentioned that are
Speaker 2: building in the government councilor are building on hedera, what
Speaker 2: are they building? Are they tokenizing assets? Are they using
Speaker 2: blockchain to move data? Maybe in supply chain or things
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all of the you know, so we have thirty
Speaker 1: two or thirventy three now cancer members, right, so we
Speaker 1: have a lot of diversity. Some of them are working
Speaker 1: on Steblequom right on a draw. Some of them are
Speaker 1: working on supply chain like you mentioned, and by the way,
Speaker 1: not just them, right, you have a lot of organizations
Speaker 1: outside of the Cancer also building on it. There are
Speaker 1: for supply chain for example, for purposes. Some of them
Speaker 1: are building aainst the sustainability market right and managing carbon
Speaker 1: credits and carbon footprint right on e era. We do
Speaker 1: a lot of work in the I with some of
Speaker 1: them capturing what an AI agent or an AI mottor
Speaker 1: is doing and using there are as a trust layer
Speaker 1: for these AI activities to be recorded and being able
Speaker 1: to be auditored in the future. It's beneath you, so
Speaker 1: very differently use cases, you know, across the board. I
Speaker 1: would say, if I have to pick the big topics,
Speaker 1: I would say it's for it's sustainability, it's to organization
Speaker 1: of real assets, it's stable bombing, and it's now the
Speaker 1: AI and we do have actually built over the last
Speaker 1: eighteen months or so, very specific, but because studio dedicated
Speaker 1: to those topics, right, AI organization, stable corn and sustainability.
Speaker 1: Sustainability for a while. We've been working on this for
Speaker 1: a while, and now we have a way to engage
Speaker 1: with there are with a public of private you are
Speaker 1: a way to engage with an abstruction layer on the
Speaker 1: top of the network, which accelerate your adoption. So if
Speaker 1: you want to build a stable consolution, you can do
Speaker 1: that in weeks. On the top of it. There are
Speaker 1: because we've built all the pieces on the top of it,
Speaker 1: all are necessary for you to build your stable cone
Speaker 1: for example.
Speaker 2: That's really great, so it's kind of turnkey if you
Speaker 2: can come in, everything is set up there and you
Speaker 2: can hit the ground running.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean, we are trying to remove the friction, right.
Speaker 1: We are trying to say, if you want to use
Speaker 1: this amazing technology that we have, talk to us. We
Speaker 1: are removing the friction as much as we can and
Speaker 1: tell us but what else we can do to remove
Speaker 1: additional friction, So you don't have to think about the
Speaker 1: complexity of the technology. You just plug and play if
Speaker 1: you want. Right. It's like you know, back in the day,
Speaker 1: you are saying, okay, I'm going to move to the cloud.
Speaker 1: Sounds very very complicated, it sounds very scary and all
Speaker 1: of that. But over time, you know, the industry was
Speaker 1: able to create those abstraction there and migration tools to
Speaker 1: move from the older world to the new world. And
Speaker 1: that's exactly what we do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And then you know, some
Speaker 2: of the things I want to highlight here because I've
Speaker 2: seen them in the news was, for example, crypto Exchange
Speaker 2: are checks putting a tokenized money market fund launching on Hedera.
Speaker 2: There was also news of here, I think swarm they
Speaker 2: launch a DeFi compatible tokenized stocks on headera. So you
Speaker 2: have a lot happening, a lot of building. It seems
Speaker 2: like the race right now is with stable coins and
Speaker 2: tokenized funds or tokenized assets. Is that kind of the
Speaker 2: what everybody, A lot of these institutions are looking to
Speaker 2: do right now.
Speaker 1: It is, and it's across the board. It's not just
Speaker 1: you know, capital market companies, which you think would be
Speaker 1: the one. We do a lot of work with this
Speaker 1: company called rete Swan, which is a toganization of real estate,
Speaker 1: and it's amazing the level of tractions are getting tokenizing
Speaker 1: real estate projects and offering investors a chance to participate
Speaker 1: in those projects, where before I didn't even know those
Speaker 1: projects existed and I could invest in them, right, and
Speaker 1: now you can, and regardless of where you are in
Speaker 1: the world, almost you can invest in those projects. So
Speaker 1: that isn't a lot of energy around this. When it
Speaker 1: comes to togonization, you have to be careful not to
Speaker 1: be over excited because you can tokenize an asset and
Speaker 1: that looks awesome on paper, but if you don't do
Speaker 1: anything about it, then it doesn't it doesn't help it.
Speaker 1: It's useless. Right, it's just a new technology on the
Speaker 1: top of an asset. What you need to do is
Speaker 1: you need to create a market. You need to create
Speaker 1: some quidity, you need to create demand, you know, So
Speaker 1: all of those things that are traditional finance kind of activities,
Speaker 1: they still need to happen even when you tokenize the asset. Right,
Speaker 1: Toconizing is step one of a six step process, right,
Speaker 1: you know, we have to be very realistic about expectations aroundganization. Yes,
Speaker 1: please tognize because it gives investor access twenty four by seven,
Speaker 1: you know, un chain trust ability, blah blah blah, all
Speaker 1: some stuff. But you still have to do the rest
Speaker 1: of the work right. You still have to find distribution channels,
Speaker 1: You still have to find investors, you still have to
Speaker 1: report to the regulators and to those investors. All of
Speaker 1: that still needs to happen. It's not just the chganization
Speaker 1: of yet.
Speaker 2: That's such a great point because it would be like
Speaker 2: me tokenizing my house versus someone tokenizing the Empire State Building.
Speaker 2: One is very well known across the world. It's in
Speaker 2: prime real estate in Manhattan. One is in the suburbs.
Speaker 2: I don't think there's going to be a big market
Speaker 2: for it, but there would be a big market for
Speaker 2: the Empire State Building. So it's very much on, you know,
Speaker 2: depending on the asset, the mass awareness of that asset,
Speaker 2: and is there a market for.
Speaker 1: It exactly exactly and then and you want to activate
Speaker 1: equally for that set. So if you if you say, okay,
Speaker 1: everybody invested in the Empire of ten building tomorrow, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm investing and I'm going to sit on it forever. Okay, great,
Speaker 1: But that's not great. That's not enough, right to me,
Speaker 1: that's not enough. That's not ambitionous. They left the ambition
Speaker 1: is now now I have you know, thousands of investors
Speaker 1: in that building and they can use that investment as
Speaker 1: a cordacter or to get a loan, and that creates equality,
Speaker 1: and that creates you know a lot of activity associated
Speaker 1: with this investment that I didn't have access to before. Right,
Speaker 1: So that's that's the exciting part. Is the engine around
Speaker 1: the organization is expanding liquidity, expanding trust, and expanding access
Speaker 1: to those assets.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another great point, Like it's not just holding
Speaker 2: the asset, but what can you do with it? And
Speaker 2: the DeFi component is huge, and it can open up
Speaker 2: so many opportunities for people to gain capital, to maybe
Speaker 2: get working capital, to fix or buy or whatever they
Speaker 2: want to do with it. But the point is they
Speaker 2: have the collateral and then with the blockchain, you open
Speaker 2: up a kind of a global market. It's not just
Speaker 2: people in the United States, but maybe someone in Hong
Speaker 2: Kong wants to will be willing to lend me some
Speaker 2: money based on the collateral I provide.
Speaker 1: Exactly, especially if you asked to be if you ask
Speaker 1: to borrow in a stepacon, which you also on chain
Speaker 1: and more so you know twenty four by seven and
Speaker 1: so on, so so now you can you know, buy
Speaker 1: a percentage of the empire or still building to use
Speaker 1: your example, and then the day after collateralize this investment
Speaker 1: and get a loan in your SDC to buy you know,
Speaker 1: another asset and do you know maybe some management around this. Right,
Speaker 1: So that is a lot of things you can unlock
Speaker 1: by toponizing. My point is the doctanization itself is not enough.
Speaker 1: You need to do more than that to benefit from
Speaker 1: this technology.
Speaker 2: Yeah, great, great point, And that absolutely makes sense, and
Speaker 2: that I guess that's what SWARM specifically. You know, they're
Speaker 2: looking to enable DeFi compatibility for those tokenized stocks and herderis.
Speaker 1: And in many of these we have a lot of companies,
Speaker 1: amazing companies on the ecosystem trying to you know, benefit
Speaker 1: from this, and they all understand the need for technology
Speaker 1: innovation and technology adoption, but also for business innovation, which
Speaker 1: is the ultimate goal, right, The ultimate goal is to
Speaker 1: innovate from a business point of view, not just I
Speaker 1: have a great platform. Listen to me, right, It's not enough.
Speaker 1: It's never been enough, right, And I've been in the
Speaker 1: business for thirty years. When you sell technology, you don't
Speaker 1: sell the core technology, you sell the output, the outcome
Speaker 1: of that technology and what it means for you as
Speaker 1: an investor, as an asset manager, what it means for
Speaker 1: you to use that technology. That's what we need to
Speaker 1: force on.
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, talk to us a bit about how you
Speaker 2: and the folks at hashcraft are prepared to handle the
Speaker 2: domain and volume. So let's say, with crypto legislation getting
Speaker 2: passed and tradify institutions are looking to build stable coins,
Speaker 2: tokenize assets and much more is headera. You know, what
Speaker 2: are the steps or plans you have in place to
Speaker 2: handle that volume and transactions? And maybe you can talk
Speaker 2: a bit about the latency and tps and all these things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think you have really three ways to
Speaker 1: look at your question. You can look at it from
Speaker 1: a technology capability point of view, right, and you can
Speaker 1: say he there are public today is about ten to
Speaker 1: twenty TP twenty thousand tps? Right, ten to twenty thousand
Speaker 1: tps that you can run on the header are public laser.
Speaker 1: That's that's a really good you know tps right for
Speaker 1: LAO one. But in some instances, as a demand grows,
Speaker 1: we would need to have additional capabilities. That's where I
Speaker 1: fear could play a role. Right, you can outfload some
Speaker 1: of that activity into a private leisure for very high
Speaker 1: speed and high volume transactions, and then use the public
Speaker 1: ledger for anchoring that I should sphere that private version
Speaker 1: on a regular basis, so now you're offloads of the
Speaker 1: transaction to anach fear. The other way to do that
Speaker 1: is to do shouting, which we can activate charging on
Speaker 1: the top of EDERA as well. There is a lot
Speaker 1: of ways to scale from a technology point of view, right,
Speaker 1: So that's the first way to think about scaling. The
Speaker 1: second one is really people because that and that's that's
Speaker 1: an interesting challenge in our industry right in Web three,
Speaker 1: finding the right engineers, the right you know, business development people,
Speaker 1: the right product leaders is not easy. Right. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of competition and the poor is of resources is
Speaker 1: still kind of small, so you have a challenge of
Speaker 1: finding the right people. I think our position is we've
Speaker 1: been seen from the very beginning as the adults in
Speaker 1: the room, and so we are able to attract in
Speaker 1: as graph and there are in our entire ecosystem. A
Speaker 1: lot of people would be scared by Web three because
Speaker 1: it's too wide, or it's too massy, or it's too
Speaker 1: focused on you know the volatility of the cryptocurrency itself.
Speaker 1: You know, we are a different breed if you want,
Speaker 1: in Web three, and so we have a really good
Speaker 1: chance about acquiring very strong talent coming from what I
Speaker 1: would go Web two into into our world. So that's
Speaker 1: that stress level around finding the right people is lower
Speaker 1: for us because of that, because of our brand across.
Speaker 1: And then the third piece of scaling to your point, right,
Speaker 1: So we talked about the technology, we talked about finding
Speaker 1: the right people. There is an ecosystem piece, right, and
Speaker 1: how do we make sure that the ecosystem is actually
Speaker 1: scaling with us, right, so that we have enough bridges.
Speaker 1: We have enough you know, oracles, we have enough, w
Speaker 1: weird enough. And that's where we partner a lot with
Speaker 1: the foundations, where we have two different foundations helping ve
Speaker 1: ecosystem grow with us. And those grants if you port
Speaker 1: you know those companies and they are very very active
Speaker 1: in the in the ecosystem. So between those three things,
Speaker 1: I feel very comfortable that we are, you know, in
Speaker 1: a unique position to scale as the demands the demand
Speaker 1: scale for for the for the technology.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I don't know if you can answer this,
Speaker 2: but you know, the folks who are part of your
Speaker 2: governing counsel are some of the largest companies in the world,
Speaker 2: have a lot of experience and web two and technology.
Speaker 2: I'm assuming you're in contact with them and they're providing
Speaker 2: ideas and helping you along the way as well.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. So that's that's one of
Speaker 1: the value of the Cancer is to actually listen to them,
Speaker 1: and we go to them four times a year. We
Speaker 1: have four Cancer members meeting every year, two in person,
Speaker 1: two virtual, and we talk to them outside of those
Speaker 1: mani as well. But during those meetings we say, what
Speaker 1: do you need? What kind of capabilities do you think
Speaker 1: are useful for you to continue to build down all right,
Speaker 1: And that's where the idea of those studios I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: the AI studio, the table corn studio, the organization studio,
Speaker 1: that's where it came from. It came from discussion with
Speaker 1: the market of all but specifically with Cancer members who said,
Speaker 1: you know, that would be great if we could get
Speaker 1: so they didn't think of the idea of studio, but
Speaker 1: they said, I need a togalization platform on the top
Speaker 1: of it there, and we said, oh awesome, we can't
Speaker 1: build that and we did, so that is a lot
Speaker 1: of collaboration between us and the member of the cancer
Speaker 1: to build the next generation. So it's it's kind of
Speaker 1: a luxury for us to have that cancer because we
Speaker 1: can do puct product market fits with them before we
Speaker 1: actually go to market. So we have a unique advantage
Speaker 1: once again, the unique advantage as a platform. You know
Speaker 1: too very often ask me what is your different share
Speaker 1: as a project, and I say, we are free. We
Speaker 1: have technology is very unique, very good, very fast, very secure,
Speaker 1: low latency, finality, fair ordering, really really important thing, right
Speaker 1: from a technology point of view. We have the cancer,
Speaker 1: which is this body of requirements and users for the technology.
Speaker 1: So that's our you know, incubator if you want, almost right,
Speaker 1: And then we have this decision that was made very
Speaker 1: early on by the co founders of Developments and Leomen
Speaker 1: just to have a fixed price for the transaction in
Speaker 1: US dollar as opposed to encrypto. Right, so the cost
Speaker 1: of a transaction fee is always going to be the
Speaker 1: same in US dollar. So when your business and you
Speaker 1: hear that, you don't care about the value of vegicle
Speaker 1: because you're always paying right, So h part was up
Speaker 1: and down doesn't matter to you your business case is
Speaker 1: still the same, which is very hard to do if
Speaker 1: you use another block chain who's using crypto as a
Speaker 1: way to pay for tunasaction fees. And that those three things,
Speaker 1: the core technology, the cancer and the fifteen dollar are
Speaker 1: really the different share for us. It's really really amazing
Speaker 1: what we are.
Speaker 2: That's amazing, uh and pretty groundbreaking. Specifically that the settlement
Speaker 2: is in US dollars versus the crypto asset, very different
Speaker 2: from everything out there in the industry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's why I'm excited, you
Speaker 1: can tell, right. So those three things are so unique
Speaker 1: that I know we have a very unique way to
Speaker 1: engage with the market. We and and with you know,
Speaker 1: a very big and very small organizations like m HM.
Speaker 2: Talk to us a bit about the use of AI
Speaker 2: and how you envision that fitting into the web three ecosystem.
Speaker 2: Will it be used to assist people in those studios
Speaker 2: when they are ready to you know, launch a stable
Speaker 2: coin or tokenize an asset or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a lot of ways to think about
Speaker 1: AI and drop chain. I usually think about those four
Speaker 1: different dimensions. I'm going to go quick. The first one
Speaker 1: is it's going to be hard in the future to
Speaker 1: trust a single company to do every single I for me,
Speaker 1: me as an organization, me as an individual. Some of
Speaker 1: the decentralization of an AI solution, I think it's going
Speaker 1: to be really really important, right, So you don't have
Speaker 1: to trust one single entity on one single government by
Speaker 1: the way, to have an ALI solution delivered to you.
Speaker 1: That's number one. Number two, as I mentioned earlier, which
Speaker 1: is mostly what to be done with the AI studio,
Speaker 1: is using rock chain as a trust that your AI. Right, So,
Speaker 1: an AI solution, whether it's model and agent, whatever you
Speaker 1: know AI you're using, is sourcing data, collecting data, training,
Speaker 1: delivering results and those result can actually get used to
Speaker 1: for another agent. That's supply chain. But I call the
Speaker 1: supply chain of AI needs to be anchored on the
Speaker 1: blockchain to be trusted and to be auditable. Right, So
Speaker 1: that's the second piece. The third piece is all those
Speaker 1: AI agents that we are starting to run and use
Speaker 1: every day, almost every day, and almost all of us
Speaker 1: will have two exchange value. They're gonna have to pay
Speaker 1: each other for a transaction. They're going to have to
Speaker 1: buy something from you or sell something from me, and
Speaker 1: those activities need to use blockchain technologies because that's been
Speaker 1: designed for this exact case. Right. So AI is you know,
Speaker 1: staple corn with the first killer. I think AI is
Speaker 1: AI agents in particular is the second one. And then
Speaker 1: of course you use I as a tool to your
Speaker 1: point to accelerate what we do. I think I talked
Speaker 1: to my head of a genera and the other day
Speaker 1: it was telling me about fifty percent of the code
Speaker 1: that we generate now is done buy an AI. Right.
Speaker 1: And so our clients are the same, you know, the
Speaker 1: big organization on the cancel and beyond. They are also
Speaker 1: using AI to accelerate the development of solutions. So everything
Speaker 1: acceerates and any everything we need an anchor from a
Speaker 1: trust point of view, which is I think where we
Speaker 1: play as an industry, not just as there are.
Speaker 2: By the way, Yeah, that's really great, and I'm really
Speaker 2: excited to see the agentic world and the use of
Speaker 2: stable coins and crypto assets and blockchain rails. It's it's
Speaker 2: going to be pretty fascinating and the new opportunities that
Speaker 2: opens up for people to be entrepreneurs. And I know
Speaker 2: folks have been talking about there may be single entrepreneurs
Speaker 2: who are running a team of AI agents and they're billionaires.
Speaker 2: It's it's fascinating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that was family said that, right, you
Speaker 1: said the next next billionaire is going to be a
Speaker 1: kid in a garage running a company with a bunch
Speaker 1: of AI agents working for him or her. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so fascinating.
Speaker 1: I'm curious.
Speaker 2: Well, what's on your roadmap? You know, what can we
Speaker 2: expect from hash grafh in the coming ones?
Speaker 1: Wow? Do you have an hour in front of you? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean maybe across the different dimensions of what we
Speaker 1: do right we are we are planning on expanding the
Speaker 1: cancer adding more cancer members, which is always exciting because
Speaker 1: that's validation for us. But it's also more use cases
Speaker 1: and more ways to build new things for our cancer members.
Speaker 1: So that's one dimension that I'm excited about. We don't announce,
Speaker 1: you know, in advance we're going to be on the
Speaker 1: cancer so I cannot talk too much about this, but
Speaker 1: we have a very strong pipeline from a technology point
Speaker 1: of view. If sure the developer, I invite you to
Speaker 1: look at blockstream and block nodes, which is the next
Speaker 1: generation of the infrastructure around the consensus and the talken
Speaker 1: service that we have on there are those are really
Speaker 1: exciting innovations that are coming out now as we speak,
Speaker 1: and we have you know, a lot of activities beyond that.
Speaker 1: We have a protocol that given beds of one of
Speaker 1: the co founders of it, there are uh uh is
Speaker 1: working on which is to interoperate between two different blockchain
Speaker 1: without the lead of a bridge. Right. So so now
Speaker 1: now we go, we go to from a world where
Speaker 1: bridges are becoming the central checkpoint of that world to
Speaker 1: becoming to remove them from the picture, because that technology
Speaker 1: can enable two different broad chains to talk to each
Speaker 1: other without the need of a of a central party, right,
Speaker 1: which is more in line with the spirit of blockchain, right,
Speaker 1: the the centralization spirit of broad chain. So that's that's
Speaker 1: also very exciting, right, and it's exciting to me as well.
Speaker 1: Is what we talked about studio earlier on the on
Speaker 1: the on the podcast. Here is the expansion of those
Speaker 1: studios to cover additional geography. For example, the Condulation Studio
Speaker 1: is expanding beyond the traditional places where we've been building
Speaker 1: right in Dubai, Singapore, or the US, Europe, London, many
Speaker 1: other places in the world where that the coorganization studio
Speaker 1: will become Availibler. So yeah, really really exciting time across
Speaker 1: the board, across the topic. So now if you're interested
Speaker 1: in any of this, you know, let me know to
Speaker 1: join us because we need more people all the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh absolutely.
Speaker 2: And then you know, in regards to the larger market,
Speaker 2: we've seen the Genius Act get passed for stable coins,
Speaker 2: we get the Clarity Act coming up. You know, I
Speaker 2: love to get your perspective on what this means for
Speaker 2: hadera hash graft and uh, you know, innovating and building
Speaker 2: now that we are in a much more favorable environment.
Speaker 1: I think it's abusive, it's of It's fantastic for US
Speaker 1: as an industry right to have clientie. From a regulatory
Speaker 1: point of view, I can't wait for the Genius Act
Speaker 1: to pack because that's going to give us, not the
Speaker 1: Genius aide the CLIITI happ into paths because the Clarity
Speaker 1: Act is really about Clarity, is about giving us a
Speaker 1: clear position on what we can expect from a regulatory
Speaker 1: point of view. We've been historically very conservative and very
Speaker 1: good too with the regulator. We are US based project
Speaker 1: for technologists, right, we are a US based project in
Speaker 1: crypto and because of that, We've been very, very engaged
Speaker 1: with the regulators over time and very consistent with what
Speaker 1: they were acting us to do. We are the adults
Speaker 1: in the room again, right from a regular great point
Speaker 1: of view as well, and so that's that's really important
Speaker 1: to get Clilie. What's also interesting is that it creates
Speaker 1: additional energy for our clients. So our clients now are
Speaker 1: coming back and saying, you know, stable pointing now we
Speaker 1: have genius acts. I'd love to hear how I can
Speaker 1: benefit from your platform. You have a stable pond studio.
Speaker 1: What can I do with this? Right? They hear that
Speaker 1: in the news. They don't really kind of know yet
Speaker 1: how they can benefit from this, and we prive away.
Speaker 1: We say, okay, let's build one in you know, next week,
Speaker 1: and then we can see how it works. Right. The
Speaker 1: lot of the fact that they can they can enable
Speaker 1: their business to use a new stable command or and
Speaker 1: you tocnize cash to tognize deposits UH in their in
Speaker 1: their business. So Clyde is good. Regulatory client is always good.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that the bigger picture, it actually
Speaker 1: rebalances the activity around blockchain and web three a little
Speaker 1: bit more back to the US because of that, So
Speaker 1: this is you know, good good for the US economy
Speaker 1: in the US innovation. Yeah. You know.
Speaker 2: Funny you mentioned, you know, the move to Web three
Speaker 2: because for a while we've been hearing Web three, Web three,
Speaker 2: but we haven't seen the bridges built for people to
Speaker 2: start to move over to Web three from Web two.
Speaker 2: But I think with regulation in places, I think you'll
Speaker 2: start seeing the mass accidents, so to speak.
Speaker 1: Back to yeah, and and developers, right, so developers are saying,
Speaker 1: so before I was taking a risk by joining Web
Speaker 1: three because I don't know what's going to happen to
Speaker 1: this industry, right, maybe it's going to be a criminal
Speaker 1: industry in the future. Now they say the risk is
Speaker 1: much lower, So now I can invest my time in
Speaker 1: building on the top of it. There are and support
Speaker 1: this ecosystem. I think that it's across the world. It
Speaker 1: is really important to get that level of energy instruction
Speaker 1: in our industry.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And I can't wait to see the innovation
Speaker 2: and the building that comes out of it. You know,
Speaker 2: you mentioned the impact on the economy, lots of jobs
Speaker 2: being created, a lot of wealth and things like that.
Speaker 2: So it's exciting times.
Speaker 1: It is. It is you know I've been in this industry,
Speaker 1: as I said, for twenty years now. I've hit very
Speaker 1: old in this industry twelve years in a long time.
Speaker 1: But I was excited that when I started. You know,
Speaker 1: it's it's just it's giving me a lot of energy,
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons to continue to build and continue
Speaker 1: to change the way we operate as businesses that individuals.
Speaker 1: It's really really an exciting time.
Speaker 2: Great stuff, Eric, I got some wrap up questions here
Speaker 2: for you. First, if you could create your own metaverse,
Speaker 2: what would.
Speaker 1: The theme be, Oh, we haven't told about me metaverse?
Speaker 1: You wi right? Yes, you're right. I would create a
Speaker 1: metaverse to visit all the different amazing places on the planet.
Speaker 1: All right. So I would love to be able to
Speaker 1: go to visit, you know, places in Italy, in Thailand,
Speaker 1: in Japan without a bit to travel for like a
Speaker 1: the a half to go there and that I have
Speaker 1: to come back. I would love to be able to
Speaker 1: do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, same here, rapid fire questions. Favorite food.
Speaker 1: Oh ah, and that's odd, As you know. I I
Speaker 1: on one dish that I really like because my grandmother
Speaker 1: and my mother were cooking. That is a dish from
Speaker 1: North Africa. It's called coss coats, So it's it's costs
Speaker 1: courts in the in the US means the grain itself,
Speaker 1: but in Europe and in North Africa it's a dish
Speaker 1: with meat and vegetables and fantastics. And of course my
Speaker 1: grandmother very nice.
Speaker 2: Favorite musician or bad I am.
Speaker 1: I am an old school I love Frank SINATURA favorite movie,
Speaker 1: Oh that's too loud?
Speaker 2: Or maybe the most recent movie you saw that was
Speaker 2: that you thought was good.
Speaker 1: I like Broadway shows and so I like the musics, right, so,
Speaker 1: so yeah, I would keep one. Wicked, I love I
Speaker 1: love Wicked for the Broadway show. The movie too, but
Speaker 1: the Broadway show was the first thing I got exposed to.
Speaker 2: I would say, yeah, yeah, my wifriend and I saw
Speaker 2: that two years ago.
Speaker 1: Favorite book I like sig you know, start with why work?
Speaker 1: Because it forces you to stand back in your life
Speaker 1: and say, yeah, what am I doing here? Right? Why
Speaker 1: are we doing this?
Speaker 2: So?
Speaker 1: I like I like that book from a business point
Speaker 1: view and a reflection set reflection in front of.
Speaker 2: You, And I think I know the end to this.
Speaker 2: I think it might be tennis. But what do you
Speaker 2: like to do for fun when you're not working?
Speaker 1: It is. It is tennis. Yeah. I love playing, love watching,
Speaker 1: love going to the US Super and we just did
Speaker 1: last weekend with my wife. Yeah, Pennis for sure.
Speaker 2: Awesome. Eric, pleasure chatting with you, and I'm really excited
Speaker 2: for their future updates around Hashgraff and Hidera. Would love
Speaker 2: to have you back on. But thank you so much
Speaker 2: for joining me.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you for having me. Looking forward to
Speaker 1: the next one.