WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.680 You're listening to an AIRWAVEMDIA podcast. 2 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:16.199 Monster House presents Monster Talks, a proud member of the 3 00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:23.120 Airwave Media podcast network, home of such shows as Subtext, 4 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:29.719 The Projection Booth and the Daily Meditation Podcast. If you'd 5 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:33.320 like to advertise on the show, contact sales at advertisedcast 6 00:00:33.399 --> 00:00:38.560 dot com. 7 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:41.560 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 8 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:47.399 A giant hairy creature, partape, part Matt. 9 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:51.399 In Luckness, a twenty four mile long bottomless lake in 10 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:54.079 the highlands of Scotland, if a creature known as the 11 00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:55.359 Luckness Monster. 12 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:23.079 Monster tal Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. 13 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:27.200 I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner. This week longtime 14 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:29.719 front of the show, doctor Justin Mullis joins us to 15 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:34.640 talk about the cryptozoology DNA president in Godzilla and yeah, 16 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:37.400 that's metaphorical, yet it's more on the nose than you 17 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:40.640 might imagine. Now, Justin was just at g Fest, the 18 00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:44.200 Chicago based convention for all things Kaiju this very weekend 19 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:46.719 giving a talk about this topic, and I'm grateful that 20 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:48.599 he took the time to give some of that information 21 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:52.719 to you, our audience here at Monster Talk. Justin Mallis 22 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:56.439 now has his PhD in American Culture studies from Bowling 23 00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:00.439 Green State University in Ohio. He got his master's religious 24 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:03.079 studies from the University of North Carolina and Charlotte, where 25 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:05.920 his area focus was on the intersection of religion and 26 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:09.479 pop culture. He teaches on diverse topics likely of interest 27 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:13.000 to our listeners, including the role of dinosaurs and pop culture, 28 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:17.840 religion and horror films, and cryptozoology and American culture. 29 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:23.800 Let's get to that, monstert. Hey, welcome to Monster Talk, 30 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:25.439 and welcome. 31 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:31.759 Back to Monster Talk, doctor, doctor Justin Mullis. 32 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:36.319 Thank you. It is happy. I'm happy to be back. Yeah. 33 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:39.039 Last when we last talked, you were still working on 34 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:42.479 that program. But you've gotten a degree using monsters. 35 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:43.199 We're jealous. 36 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:43.919 Yeah. Yeah. 37 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:45.639 So when I was I was last on here with 38 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:48.199 you guys in twenty nineteen. Blake and I we had 39 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:51.120 just met in real life at the Gods and Monsters 40 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:56.919 conference earlier that year at Texas State, and he'd heard 41 00:02:56.919 --> 00:03:00.879 me give my presentation there about Thomas Jefferson and as 42 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:05.439 possibly the first cryptozoologist in America. I feel like, considering 43 00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:07.360 the topic we're gonna be talking about today, I should 44 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.280 clarify that first Cryptozologists in America. 45 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:11.400 Yeah, and. 46 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:14.800 I had I had mentioned at the end, Yeah, that 47 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:18.560 I was. I was trying to find a doctoral program. 48 00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:24.159 And so later in that same year, based on some 49 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:28.639 advice from some you know, good friends and colleagues, especially 50 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:31.560 I should give a shout out to Nick Clark. So 51 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:35.800 I ended up applying and getting accepted to the American 52 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:42.199 Culture Studies program at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, where. 53 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:44.000 I ended up going to do my pH d. 54 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:49.400 With my focus being on looking at this idea of 55 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:53.639 cryptozoology and American culture and specifically early American culture. 56 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:55.479 They were very receptive to. 57 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:58.560 That kind of work and that being an avenue that 58 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:02.120 I could explore, and it turned out to be a 59 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:05.680 great university to do that kind of work at because 60 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:10.960 of that American Culture Studies program, and also, you know, 61 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:14.800 they have a very well regarded and well renowned pop 62 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:18.120 culture studies program here which is kind of connected at 63 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:21.199 the hip to the American Culture Studies program. And one 64 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:24.160 of the things that Bowling Green is famous for with 65 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:26.680 that regard is they have the Ray and Pat Brown 66 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:29.759 Pop Culture Library here, which is one of the largest 67 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:34.360 archived collections of pop culture related to femera. So that 68 00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:37.160 was really useful for me as far as giving me 69 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:43.519 access to a a lot of classical like science fiction 70 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:46.240 and fantasy and pulp fiction text which tied in with 71 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:48.720 a lot of my work and my scholarship. But they 72 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:53.480 also have a lot of material related to Fortiana and 73 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:56.399 the paranormal. As part of that collection. They've got like 74 00:04:56.439 --> 00:05:00.839 a complete run of every issue of Fate magazine, all 75 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:05.199 kinds of books and and monographs. You know, some of 76 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:08.920 the stuff I know I'd posted online, like on on 77 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:11.319 my Facebook page and stuff because I would I would 78 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:14.000 request something like at one point I requested a copy 79 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:19.759 of Mark Hall, the famous cryptozoologists book on thunderbirds, and 80 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:22.480 instead of getting the sort of standard copy, I got 81 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:26.439 this early like DIY version that he had done that 82 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:27.879 they happened to have in their collection. 83 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:32.240 Wow. So that's so I was court archive. 84 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:33.120 Yeah. Yeah. 85 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:38.360 Bowling Green's Library is also the home of the Invisible Inc. 86 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:38.920 Collection. 87 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:42.680 It's it's all, it's all books relating to the Pair 88 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:45.279 and Normal and they've all been donated by somebody I 89 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:47.720 believe you've had on the show before, which is Ohio 90 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:50.160 Folkloris Chris Woodyard wow. 91 00:05:50.279 --> 00:05:51.439 Yes, wow. 92 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:54.360 So all of all of her books that she's donated 93 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:57.759 from her personal library and collection. 94 00:05:57.519 --> 00:05:59.040 Over the years are here. 95 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:01.800 So both of those collections, between the Ray and Pat 96 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:07.279 Brown and the Invisible Inc Collection are a fantastic resource 97 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:10.000 for anybody who's wanting to do work relating to the 98 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:13.040 paranormal and the Fortiana in an academic setting. 99 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:14.879 So yeah, wow, Well. 100 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:17.759 That's really exciting. So a lot has happened since we 101 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:20.480 last spoke with you, and one of those things is 102 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:23.079 that you've been working on a paper and that's why 103 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:25.240 we brought you on today to talk about this. So 104 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:28.240 could you briefly describe the main theme of your paper, 105 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:32.120 From Cryptids to Kaiju and what inspired you to write 106 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:32.680 it as well? 107 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:33.519 Yeah? 108 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:36.040 Absolutely, So this is this is the most recent piece 109 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:38.680 of scholarship that I've had published. It came out earlier 110 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:42.439 this year. It's in the journal the Interdisciplinary Science Review, 111 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:45.319 and the other full title is from Cryptids to Kaiju 112 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:51.120 Exploring Heterodox Paleoscience with Godzilla and this was this was 113 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:54.000 part of a larger series of articles that the Interdisciplinary 114 00:06:54.040 --> 00:07:00.759 Science Review are doing under the editorial guidance of two scholars, 115 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:06.800 Richard Fallon and Eddie Gumont, who I know and are good, 116 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:11.639 great friends and colleagues, and they're interested in basically, yeah, 117 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:17.560 as as part of my title there heterodox paleoscience or palaeontology, 118 00:07:18.279 --> 00:07:20.839 and so that includes things like cryptozoology and other stuff. 119 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:23.439 So they had reached out to me about if I 120 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:27.079 had wanted to contribute to this series that they were doing, 121 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:29.800 and I said yes, I had an idea for this, 122 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:32.959 which was it originally started off as I was wanting 123 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:37.279 to write something about and it was kind of based 124 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:39.040 on a blog post I had done at one point 125 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:44.279 years ago about you know, the paleontology of Godzilla, right like, 126 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:48.879 what is what actually is Godzilla from a paleontological kind 127 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:51.160 of perspective, And then I sort of realized that article 128 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:54.560 had been written several times over already, and then in 129 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:56.920 the process of working on this, it kind of expanded 130 00:07:56.920 --> 00:08:00.399 into this different thing, which was really looking at the 131 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:07.759 history of cryptozoology in Japan and then also talking about 132 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:13.360 how that history then eventually manifests itself into the form 133 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:16.920 of this global pop culture icon, which is Godzilla, who 134 00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:20.160 is you know, really having a moment right now also 135 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:21.959 in sort of global popular culture. 136 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:24.319 First of all, let me say something about your paper. 137 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:27.560 I read a lot of academic papers. I am not 138 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:30.959 an academic, even though I do aspire to be one 139 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:31.879 in some ways. 140 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:34.600 So this took well. Thanks. 141 00:08:34.600 --> 00:08:36.279 I appreciate that Karen and I try to do the 142 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:38.840 research in an academic style, but you know, I just 143 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:41.960 don't have the proper training I think that i'd like 144 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:44.480 to have, so I may have absolutely accidentally absorbed some 145 00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:48.759 But this is a very accessible paper, and I think 146 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:51.200 so for some of our readers who might sometimes be 147 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:55.159 intimidated by reading journal articles, this one's different. So I 148 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:56.879 hope they are able to find a copy of it. 149 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:01.240 In this paper, you define cryptozoology, but what does it 150 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:05.360 mean in this papers from this paper's reference? And how 151 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:08.720 does it relate to heterodox paleoscience, which is something you 152 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:09.440 talk about a lot. 153 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:14.360 There's definitely related kind of issues, so I think within 154 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:17.240 the kind of broader theme that Eddie and Richard kind 155 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:19.679 of had in mind when they're talking about the idea 156 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:24.679 of heterodox paleoscience or heterodox paleontology, they just mean anything 157 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:30.320 that is not necessarily accepted by sort of the scientific mainstream. 158 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:35.360 So so you know, in more kind of common parlance 159 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:39.759 what you would call like pseudoscience, right, so paleontological pseudoscience. 160 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:40.879 Now, you know. 161 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:43.519 One of the things that and this was this is 162 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:46.200 a conversation that I had had with both Eddie and 163 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.399 Richard early on, is that all of us kind of 164 00:09:48.440 --> 00:09:52.639 have difficult feelings about the term pseudoscience. We think in 165 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:55.360 some ways it's overly general. It doesn't really do a 166 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:58.919 good job of telling you what is the issue with 167 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:01.519 something other than say saying, well, it's not science. And 168 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:03.919 it's like, well, we've kind of already established that it's 169 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:06.799 not science. How is it not science? Why is it 170 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:09.639 not science? How are you kind of defining that? 171 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:10.480 And so. 172 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:14.720 They really encouraged me, and I cite his work in 173 00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:17.320 my paper to kind of look at historian of science 174 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:21.799 Michael D. Gordon's book on the Fringe, where Gordon attempts 175 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:24.720 to kind of move beyond the idea of pseudoscience, and 176 00:10:24.759 --> 00:10:28.679 he breaks it down into several different categories. And the 177 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.360 two that I found to be the most useful with 178 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:34.879 regards to this project and with thinking about cryptozoology is 179 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:39.440 so Gordon himself classifies cryptozoology as an example of what 180 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:43.159 he calls a counter establishment science, meaning that it pushes 181 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:47.879 a back against you know, the sort of general consensus 182 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:52.080 understanding within that field. So with regardless of them like cryptozoology. 183 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:54.720 The most simple example of that would be, you know, 184 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:58.519 palaeontologists would tell you that all non avian dinosaurs died 185 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:02.519 out sixty five million years ago, and then cryptologists would 186 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:06.799 be like, no, you know, see the lacknest monster, see 187 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:11.120 mochaleum momembe right, see whatever, right, there are examples of 188 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:15.159 non avian dinosaurs that are still alive, and they'll say, 189 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:19.000 you know, the establishment whatever that means, is blind to 190 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:23.919 this fact. The other category that Gordon introduces that I 191 00:11:23.960 --> 00:11:27.480 also found to be very useful, and he doesn't put 192 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:30.960 cryptozoology in this, but he acknowledges that all of these 193 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:35.600 categories could probably be applied to multiple different areas is 194 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:38.759 he talks about the idea of vestigial science, and so 195 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:43.480 vestigial science refers to something where you have a discipline 196 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:47.039 that has refused to stay up to date with the 197 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:50.480 current scholarship. And I know this is something that also 198 00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:54.399 like Jebcard has written about before in regards to cryptozoology, 199 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:57.799 which is this idea that you know, like cryptozoologist seem 200 00:11:57.799 --> 00:12:01.679 to still be functioning at the level of like nineteenth 201 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:05.720 century naturalists, right, and they have not progressed into more 202 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:10.399 modern ways of thinking about zoology, thinking about field biology 203 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:13.879 and those kinds of things. And this is also again 204 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:19.440 related to like why depictions of prehistoric animals like dinosaurs, 205 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:24.960 like plesiosaurs in cryptozoology also tend to be very outdated themselves, right, 206 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:27.720 Like the Latnus monster is this old model of a 207 00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:32.639 swan necked plesiosaur that is not considered in keeping with 208 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:38.399 the most latest research in the field of paleontology. Mocalium 209 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:41.840 ammbay is a swamp dwelling sauropod. You know, no serious 210 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:46.039 paleontologists thinks that soropods were swamp dwelling animals. 211 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:48.000 They were dry land animals. Right. 212 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:53.279 So those are two concepts that I talk about and 213 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:56.440 I use in the article with regards to thinking about this. 214 00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:02.240 But then the sort of larger thing is also I'm 215 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:07.960 thinking about cryptozoology itself as an example of what I 216 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:12.840 call the scientification of folklore, which is a concept that 217 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:19.679 I'm getting from a pair of culture studies scholars Grimshawn Lester, 218 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:24.080 who wrote a monograph back in the seventies called the 219 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.159 Meaning of the Latinus Monster, and they introduced this idea 220 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:32.919 that cryptozoology should be viewed as a kind of modern folklore. 221 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:36.039 And what makes it unique or different from other kinds 222 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:39.240 of folklore is that it has incorporated, or we might 223 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:43.799 even say appropriated, the language of science as a means 224 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:50.039 of increasing its apparent veracity. And so in that sense, 225 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:56.440 it doesn't necessarily matter if the science is mainstream, if 226 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.919 it's supported by the quote unquote establishment, or if it's 227 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:03.639 even necessarily up to date. As long as it and 228 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:06.039 I use this phrase as well, to borrow it from 229 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:10.240 Sharon Hill, as long as it sounds sciencey, it's good 230 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:14.279 enough for the general public, right And that's what's important here. 231 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:18.360 So that's how I'm thinking about cryptozoology, and this article 232 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:20.799 and a lot of my other work is as this 233 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:22.840 kind of science inflected. 234 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:27.720 Folklore, right well, very interesting stuff, and I wanted to 235 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:30.360 get into something a bit more specific here if we 236 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:34.799 could talk about the Godzilla franchise. So how does that 237 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:38.879 serve as an example of cryptozoological fiction? And could you 238 00:14:38.919 --> 00:14:42.240 explain how Japanese folk wells such as the stories of 239 00:14:42.279 --> 00:14:46.399 the Kappa or the Tengu how have they influenced Godzilla's creation. 240 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:49.159 Part of the main aspect of this article was me 241 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:54.000 looking at like the history of cryptozoology in Japan, and 242 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:57.440 so one of the things that I realized was that 243 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:01.039 if you're thinking about cryptozoology as this honor of folklore 244 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:04.960 that is sort of inflected by and using the language 245 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:09.159 and kind of the concepts of science, then this is 246 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.080 actually something that the Japanese have been doing for a 247 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:17.960 very long time with their folklore, where it would it 248 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:18.440 would go. 249 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:20.320 Back at least to. 250 00:15:21.799 --> 00:15:28.159 Like the seventeenth century, right, And because you start finding 251 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:33.360 what's going on is especially during like sort of the 252 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:37.480 Tokugawa period sixteen hundred to eighteen sixty eight, which is 253 00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:41.159 this this stretch of time in Japan where Japan becomes 254 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:45.000 sort of isolated from the Western world except for kind 255 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.840 of limited exchange with the Dutch. This is also the 256 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:53.240 period where they start working on the first sort of 257 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:57.840 explorations into what we would call natural history. Right during 258 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:00.799 this time period you start having these first explorations of 259 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:06.240 natural history, and the monsters of Japanese folklore are not 260 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:11.799 excluded from these explorations, they are actually incorporated into it. 261 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:19.919 But what's interesting here is that rather than the academics 262 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:23.159 who are looking at this kind of stuff, you know, 263 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:27.679 dismissing these creatures because there's like a lack of you know, 264 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:33.200 empirical evidence, their approach is to just kind of it 265 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:36.240 seems to be just sort of assume that that evidence 266 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:40.759 must exist. So I talk about, for example, this guy 267 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:46.360 Koremoto Tanshun, right, who lived from seventeen fifty six to 268 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:49.039 eighteen thirty four, and he was actually the personal physition 269 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:54.399 of the Showgun. And he assembles this group of scholars 270 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:57.519 to investigate a particular monster from Japanese folklore, which is 271 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:00.519 the Kappa, which where people aren't familiar this kind of 272 00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:06.319 vampiric turtle duck looking creature. And so Tanschu and his 273 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:12.640 team go out and they collect all of these eyewitness reports, right, 274 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:17.839 hundreds and hundreds of eyewitness reports, and they they corelate them, 275 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:22.480 and they come up with a profile for the Kappa, 276 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:27.000 which is, you know, no different than like any other animal. Right, 277 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:34.400 they have anatomical features, size, color, behavior, ecosystem, habitat everything. 278 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:38.440 And they they create this sort of synthesis and they 279 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:43.720 publish it as a book called Suko Koiyaku or a 280 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:47.480 study of water tigers is what that would literally translate 281 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:52.720 as water tiger being another name for the Kappa. And 282 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.799 then subsequent to that, you have a pair of naturalists, 283 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:04.680 these brothers, which are Sakamoto and Juntaku Conan, who create 284 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:08.440 a kind of a series of illustrations based on this study, 285 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:10.640 because as part of the study, Tantue and his team 286 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:13.440 decide that there's not just one type of Kappa, there's 287 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:18.240 like seven types of kappa, right, and and so you've 288 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:22.000 got this set of iowoness accounts that have been turned 289 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:27.400 into a sort of taxonomical description and then illustrations showing 290 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:29.640 what these creatures look like, because of course they don't 291 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:33.319 have any specimens to go along with it, to give 292 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:36.720 people this idea of like, here's what these these creatures 293 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.160 look like. And if any of this sounds familiar to anybody, 294 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:43.119 it's because this is exactly what cryptozoologists still do today. 295 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:45.880 Right. If you've read like the books. 296 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:48.640 Of Lauren Coleman or Patrick Wynn, you know, like their 297 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:52.440 field Guides to Lake Monsters or to Bigfoot, that's what 298 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:56.000 those books are. They are collections of ies sightings that 299 00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:00.720 have been synthesized into a taxonomical description of a speculative 300 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.599 creature with an accompanying illustration to show you what these 301 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:06.319 creatures are supposed to look. 302 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:09.200 Like like a real world monster manual, A real. 303 00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:13.079 World monster manual exactly. And that's exactly what these Japanese 304 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:18.240 naturalists were doing all the way back in the seventeenth 305 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:21.920 and eighteenth century as well. I think that this process 306 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:26.559 was really important though, because it lended these creatures this 307 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:31.880 extra degree of veracity, right, It made them feel more 308 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:34.839 real to their readers, just the fact that they were 309 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:38.359 being spoken of in this way and described in this 310 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:42.960 way and talked about in this way. And I think 311 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:46.880 that's a big part of what allowed them to endure 312 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:50.920 in Japanese culture. So that, you know, the Kappa is 313 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:56.039 still a very important figure in Japanese culture even today. 314 00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:59.359 And of course, as I mentioned in the paper that 315 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:01.119 I don't have I didn't have the space to kind 316 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:03.960 of go into specific examples, but you know, there are 317 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:08.319 still sightings of Kappa in Japan to this day, right, 318 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:12.799 you know, they are still treated as an actual cryptid, right, 319 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:18.880 people still claim to have encounters with them as a result, right, 320 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:22.079 which is not something that's necessarily true about every kind 321 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:25.559 of monster or yokai in Japanese folklore, just as it's 322 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:28.440 something that's not true about every kind of monster that 323 00:20:28.480 --> 00:20:32.759 exists in the folklore of any country. But it does 324 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:35.960 seem to me that when you have that kind of veracity, 325 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:38.839 that kind of stuff that's added into these legends, that 326 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:42.519 that's what helps to perpetuate them and helps them to endure. 327 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:46.400 And that's one of the things that has made cryptids, 328 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:50.319 you know, in a way kind of like very sticky, right, 329 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:54.480 they hang around even once you can sort of trace 330 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:59.559 their origins to like a hoax or a misperception or something. 331 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:03.079 It does matter because the idea that these things are 332 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:07.119 real has been so firmly planted in the public consciousness. 333 00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:11.480 But it's interesting there's there's parallels in sort of Western 334 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:15.720 folklore monsters in this there's monsters like you don't see 335 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:18.920 people reporting dragons or mermaids very often, but it's not 336 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:19.519 as zero. 337 00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:21.200 They still happen. 338 00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:23.720 It's just not as common like you know most Oh, 339 00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:26.160 of course dragon's ridiculous, but no, they still show up. 340 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.079 Here's a question for you, and this is to contextualize 341 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.839 things a bit. How does the Godzilla franchise sort of 342 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:38.160 reflect these cultural political moods over the eras in the decades. 343 00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:42.640 And I mean that both in your premise here comparing 344 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:47.200 the way cryptosuality translates into kaiju, but also because there 345 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:50.519 is something in Japanese culture around this concept of eras 346 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:53.640 that I've just sort of picked up on through things 347 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:58.319 like Godzilla the movie series being tied to eras, but 348 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.480 also I've seen it in anime in One Piece, which 349 00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:03.200 my family is slowly working their way through. 350 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:03.839 Uh. 351 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:06.039 You know, they always talk about the Great Pirate Era. 352 00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:08.599 In this concept that there's these ages or eras or 353 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:12.799 periods of time that sometimes they're short or long. 354 00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:14.960 Is that tied to royalty? Where does that come from? 355 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:19.440 Obviously you have the the kind of historical eras which 356 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:22.720 are usually tied to government or what's going on. So 357 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:25.599 for example, I know I already mentioned the Tokagawa period, 358 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:30.119 which is this period of time where the emperor still 359 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:31.440 exists in Japan. 360 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:35.799 But has been kind of uh uh you know. 361 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:38.400 Pushed off to the side, and instead you have this 362 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:42.440 this military ruling class which is which is headed up 363 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:46.519 by the showgun instead, which is the first showgun was 364 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:51.440 tokay Gawa is Sayu and so that's why it becomes 365 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:57.400 the Tokagawa Era, and then like his descendants take over afterwards, 366 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:01.480 and then you know, but then the Tokagawa Era transitions 367 00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:05.559 into you know, like the maj Era, which is a 368 00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:08.640 period of reform, which is a reference to then back 369 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:14.039 to the emperor you know that's in power or the 370 00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:15.920 sort of the figurehead of the country at the time, 371 00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:19.400 which is then followed by the Taishow Period, which for 372 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.279 again anime fans, that's when like Demon Slayer is set 373 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:25.200 during the Taishow period, which is a sort of transitional 374 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:29.319 era for Japan where they're starting to attempt to modernize 375 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:31.880 or western eize. So then following that though, then you 376 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:35.799 have the two big recent eras that you often hear 377 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:40.440 Western Godzilla fans talk about as as a way of 378 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:44.079 kind of demarketing the franchises. You have the Showa Era, 379 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:49.759 which is basically you know, most of the twentieth century 380 00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:55.039 up until up until into the nineteen eighties, which is 381 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:59.400 when the Showa Era ends, and then the Heyse Era 382 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:03.119 and again and these refer to the particular emperor and 383 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:07.039 it's by their last name and who they're being referred to. 384 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:10.680 So the sort of original seventeen films in the Godzilla 385 00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:14.839 series that are made between nineteen fifty four and nineteen 386 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:20.160 seventy five are known as the Shoa Era films in 387 00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:26.640 both Japan and amongst American fans. And then the second 388 00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:30.200 series of films, which is from eighty four to ninety five, 389 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:33.480 is what's known as the heyse Era, And there is 390 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:35.880 a little fudging going on there because the show Era 391 00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:40.839 wasn't over in eighty four, so technically the first film 392 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:44.960 from the heyse Era series is actually a Showa Era film, 393 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:47.960 and sometimes that's reflected in Japanese language Godzilla books because 394 00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:50.799 for obvious reasons, they care a little bit more about 395 00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:54.400 this than we do about getting that exactly right. But 396 00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:57.960 usually even they because you know, they acknowledge that, you know, 397 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:00.720 Return of Godzilla from nineteen eighty four or is the 398 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:04.839 first film in that second series of movies, so it 399 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:07.039 has to be included even if it was technically made 400 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:11.119 and released during the show Era. But then the other 401 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:15.240