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<v Speaker 1>Hi.

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<v Speaker 2>As you may know, Working Class History doesn't get any

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<v Speaker 2>sort of funding from any wealthy benefactors, corporations, governments, or

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<v Speaker 2>political parties. Our work is funded by you, our listeners

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<v Speaker 2>and readers on Patreon. In return for their support, patrons

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<v Speaker 2>get access to exclusive content and benefits like ad free episodes,

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<v Speaker 2>bonus podcast episodes, and a couple of exclusive podcast series

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<v Speaker 2>called Fireside Chats and Radical Reads. So here's a little

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<v Speaker 2>preview of our latest episode for our patrons. You can

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<v Speaker 2>join us, help support our work and listen to the

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<v Speaker 2>whole thing today at patreon dot com slash working Class

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<v Speaker 2>History link in the show notes. Hope you enjoy.

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<v Speaker 3>As we come. Margin Martin in the Beauty of the Day,

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<v Speaker 3>a million dark in Kitchens, one thousand mil, last grade.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi, Branden by.

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<v Speaker 3>The Beauty is Sun, Sun Discloses, and the people Heresy Bredden, Roses,

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<v Speaker 3>bread and Roses.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, everyone, and welcome to our first installment of Radical Reads,

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<v Speaker 1>a new series where we talk about different political texts

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<v Speaker 1>both old and new, that have even influenced us here

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<v Speaker 1>at wh or texts that we generally think that people

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<v Speaker 1>involved in radical and working class movements should be engaging with,

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<v Speaker 1>discussing and using to inform their activism. We're going to

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<v Speaker 1>be producing occasional Radical Reads episodes as well as other

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<v Speaker 1>discussions as part of a new range of Patreon only

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<v Speaker 1>content that we're about to start rolling out. This is

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<v Speaker 1>basically motivated by two things. First, there's a bunch of

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<v Speaker 1>stuff that we'd really like to talk about, share and

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<v Speaker 1>discuss with people that doesn't really fit into the standard

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<v Speaker 1>episode format, so basically this is a way for us

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<v Speaker 1>to produce that kind of content. And second, we also

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<v Speaker 1>thought it'd be a great way for us to show

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<v Speaker 1>our appreciation for all the support that you guys give us.

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<v Speaker 1>I know we say it a lot, but it really

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<v Speaker 1>is true and bears repeating that without your support, we

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<v Speaker 1>really wouldn't be able to keep this project going, and

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<v Speaker 1>we're basically insanely grateful that you guys help us to

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<v Speaker 1>do it. So making this extra Patreon only content is

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<v Speaker 1>our way of saying thank you well at the same

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<v Speaker 1>time keeping the majority of our content free for everyone.

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<v Speaker 1>We're doing this on a trial basis for now, so

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<v Speaker 1>please do let us know what you think if you

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<v Speaker 1>enjoy it, if you don't enjoy it, any changes you

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<v Speaker 1>think we should make, should we make more. Should we

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<v Speaker 1>delete this and pretend it never happened, et cetera, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 1>Our radical read for this episode is Jasper Burns is

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<v Speaker 1>excellent article from the Brooklyn Rail What Was to Be Done?

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<v Speaker 1>Protest and Revolution in the twenty tens. It's a review

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<v Speaker 1>and critique of the recent and very popular book by

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<v Speaker 1>Vincent Bevins, If We Burn, The Mass Protest Decade and

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<v Speaker 1>the Missing Revolution. And when we read Jasper's article, we

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<v Speaker 1>felt that it really put into words some of the

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<v Speaker 1>misgivings that we had about Bevins's book, so we invited

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<v Speaker 1>Jasper on to talk about his article. It was a

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<v Speaker 1>great discussion. We covered not only what we see is

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<v Speaker 1>some of the issues with Bevins's book, but also broader

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<v Speaker 1>questions around social movements, revolution, the threat of cooptation, and

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<v Speaker 1>what it means to win. And as Jasper says in

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<v Speaker 1>the discussion, understanding what happened and what we can learn

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<v Speaker 1>from the protest movements of the twenty tens is one

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<v Speaker 1>of the most important and vital questions that we can

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<v Speaker 1>be thinking about right now, and in that sense, If

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<v Speaker 1>We Burn is a valuable contribution, at least in starting

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<v Speaker 1>that conversation, even if we have some pretty big disagreements

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<v Speaker 1>on its conclusions. We'll put a link in the show

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<v Speaker 1>notes to get hold of if we burn, as well

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<v Speaker 1>as Jasper's article and an lecture series that he produced

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<v Speaker 1>on workers' councils. But before we begin, there are a

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<v Speaker 1>few acronyms and names that we mentioned that people might

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<v Speaker 1>not be familiar with. So firstly we mentioned the PT,

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<v Speaker 1>which is the Workers Party in Brazil. The PT or

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<v Speaker 1>a left wing social democratic party and currently the party

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<v Speaker 1>governing Brazil. Lula de Silva, who we also mention, is

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<v Speaker 1>a former metal worker and union leader who is now

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<v Speaker 1>the leader of the PT and the current president CCIDENT

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<v Speaker 1>of Brazil. At a time of the events that we

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<v Speaker 1>discussed in this interview and which Bevins discusses in his book,

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<v Speaker 1>Lula had just completed his first term as president, with

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<v Speaker 1>massive approval ratings and having lifted many millions out of poverty,

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<v Speaker 1>but not as we discuss, without criticism from some of

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<v Speaker 1>Brazil's social movements. He was also subsequently imprisoned on corruption charges,

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<v Speaker 1>which were eventually annulled after it was proven that the

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<v Speaker 1>judge was actually biased against him. Many believed that the

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<v Speaker 1>corruption charges were an attempt by the Brazilian right to

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<v Speaker 1>stop Lula from running for reelection and so paved the

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<v Speaker 1>way for their own victory, which it did with the

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<v Speaker 1>election of Jaia Bolsonaro in twenty eighteen. We also mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>the MST, which is Brazil's landless workers movement. The MST

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<v Speaker 1>mainly campaigns around land reform, organizing direct actions like land occupations,

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<v Speaker 1>and is one of the biggest such organizations in Latin America. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>with all that said, I'll stop talking and let you

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<v Speaker 1>get stuck into the interview itself. Just to start off with,

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<v Speaker 1>I suppose maybe if you could just introduce yourself.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm Jasper Burns. I'm a author of various types of books,

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<v Speaker 4>and I just finished a book called The Future of Revolution,

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<v Speaker 4>which first is going to published next year, just about

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<v Speaker 4>communism and revolution. And yeah, I live in Oakland. I

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<v Speaker 4>teach at UC Berkeley.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that sounds like a really interesting and interesting project.

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<v Speaker 1>I suppose is some of the article that you've just

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<v Speaker 1>written that we're going to discuss now, I suppose some

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<v Speaker 1>of those thoughts maybe are going to go into the book.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, not not really, I mean the book is finished.

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<v Speaker 4>Actually it's it's more or less written, so it's it's

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<v Speaker 4>more the other way around that. My thinking about revolution

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<v Speaker 4>and writing this book it formed my criticism of the

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<v Speaker 4>of the Vincent Baben's book. So you know, I've spent

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of time thinking about revolutions and what they are,

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<v Speaker 4>how they happen, how they fail, and what what it

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<v Speaker 4>like for them to succeed and so yeah, so it's

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<v Speaker 4>definitely certain of those thoughts informed my criticism of the

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<v Speaker 4>Bevins book. But I've been thinking about this kind of

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<v Speaker 4>stuff for a long time.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, part of why I think your article spoke

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<v Speaker 1>to me so much because I think it's since the

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<v Speaker 1>kind of resurgence of kind of social democracy as a

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<v Speaker 1>kind of political force in at least in the anglosphere.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there's a lot of a lot of the

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<v Speaker 1>arguments that Bevins makes are kind of crystallizing a general

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<v Speaker 1>kind of attitude. I feel that that was kind of

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<v Speaker 1>about But I guess maybe before we before we get

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<v Speaker 1>into that, maybe could could you kind of introduce Bevin's

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<v Speaker 1>book and kind of what the main argument is.

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<v Speaker 4>So the book is written by Vincent Bevins, and it's

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<v Speaker 4>called If We Burn, I believe. The subtitle is the

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<v Speaker 4>Mass Protest Decade and the miss Revolution by Mass Protest Decade.

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<v Speaker 4>He's referring to what I would call the cycle of

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<v Speaker 4>struggles circa twenty ten, which kind of began with the

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<v Speaker 4>Arab Spring. It's unclear when it ended in some ways,

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<v Speaker 4>probably with the pandemic. But he's sort of writing about

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<v Speaker 4>these movements during that period of the twenty tens, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>and there is a kind of distinct pattern to these movements.

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<v Speaker 4>So Vincent Bevins is a journalist by trade, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>known for writing kind of books informed by journalism and

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<v Speaker 4>by his position in the world. He lives in Brazil

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<v Speaker 4>and he participated in some of the events there that

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<v Speaker 4>are the form part of the book. But the book

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<v Speaker 4>is written through I think dozens, you know, probably one

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<v Speaker 4>hundred or so interviews, and he asked participants to kind

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<v Speaker 4>of say what happened, and more importantly, what went wrong

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<v Speaker 4>and what they think should have been done. And so

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<v Speaker 4>to the ex said that the book has an argument.

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<v Speaker 4>The sort of argument is written through a kind of

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<v Speaker 4>synthesis of these accounts of what went wrong and what

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<v Speaker 4>should have been done, and the book identifies the problem

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<v Speaker 4>as originating from this kind of ideology that it describes

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<v Speaker 4>as horizontalism, which it claims was kind of the dominant,

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<v Speaker 4>had a force within these protest movements and was a

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<v Speaker 4>kind of disorganizing and disempowering ideology.

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<v Speaker 1>What are some of the positives that you see in

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<v Speaker 1>the book.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I mean, I was very excited about this book,

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<v Speaker 4>and I should note that it's a very popular book,

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<v Speaker 4>and you know, and I think that that indicates something.

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<v Speaker 4>People really love it, including many many people I know,

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<v Speaker 4>get a lot out of the book and are quite

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<v Speaker 4>excited by it. And that's in some ways what kind

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<v Speaker 4>of motivated me to identify what I think thought were

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<v Speaker 4>the problems with it. It's appealing, it's really well written,

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<v Speaker 4>it's engaging, and you can learn a lot. And I

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<v Speaker 4>and I think it's you know, really asking the right questions,

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<v Speaker 4>how do we win, what would it mean to win?

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<v Speaker 4>What was it that these movements wanted? And how could

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<v Speaker 4>they have achieved it? You know, asking why these movements

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<v Speaker 4>failed is a good question. And it's also taking a

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<v Speaker 4>kind of big picture look at things and writing from

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<v Speaker 4>kind of global and comparative perspective that is pretty rare.

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<v Speaker 4>There's not a lot of people who feel they have

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<v Speaker 4>the kind of authority to kind of write a synthetic

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<v Speaker 4>book like this, because it's very hard. There were a

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<v Speaker 4>couple of books that came out, you know, in the

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<v Speaker 4>twenty tens, but certainly I can't really think of anything

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<v Speaker 4>like it that's often that's kind of reflective, that's a book.

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<v Speaker 4>There's a couple, there's a couple of things in other languages,

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<v Speaker 4>and certainly there's articles written by kind of like very

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<v Speaker 4>far left magazines that you know, investigate similar questions. But so,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, it's it's I think that the peer has

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<v Speaker 4>to deal with the fact that this is these are

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<v Speaker 4>really interesting questions and these social movements are vastly important,

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<v Speaker 4>and understanding them and how they could have succeeded is

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<v Speaker 4>I think one of the most important things we can

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<v Speaker 4>be doing. So, you know, I think that I really,

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<v Speaker 4>I really admire that, and probably it's because I think

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<v Speaker 4>those are the right questions that I am very concerned

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<v Speaker 4>with getting the answers right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Also, I think for listeners that haven't read the book,

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<v Speaker 2>because I was also really excited to read it as well,

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<v Speaker 2>because he interviewed I think two hundred and twenty five

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<v Speaker 2>people in I can't remember how many countries, like ten

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<v Speaker 2>or eleven, and it covers a selection of big struggles

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<v Speaker 2>from the twenty tens. And the questions that he said

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<v Speaker 2>he was putting to people are very similar to the

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<v Speaker 2>questions that we ask when we're doing a podcast episode

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<v Speaker 2>with participants in social movements. So we were very well.

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<v Speaker 2>I was reading it very interest did to see what

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<v Speaker 2>these people had to say, and I guess we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to get but yeah, I think, like you, they are

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<v Speaker 2>these are really important questions, and I think, like you,

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<v Speaker 2>I was a little disappointed as well. Something I found

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<v Speaker 2>really disappointing with the book as a whole, actually that

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<v Speaker 2>with these interviews with two hundred other people, I was

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<v Speaker 2>I was reading getting the introbute, I'm really excited to

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<v Speaker 2>see these interviews and see what these people say. And

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<v Speaker 2>then I kind of got about forty five percent of

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<v Speaker 2>the way through on my kindle and I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm kind of feeling like, I'm not actually going to

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<v Speaker 2>see these interviews, you know, because yeah, because I was

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<v Speaker 2>expecting it to be more the words of the interviewees

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<v Speaker 2>rather than those kind of used behind the scenes that

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<v Speaker 2>you don't see, which he then says he's used to

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<v Speaker 2>construct his narrative, which, yeah, you know, I guess that's

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<v Speaker 2>just how the book was put together. But it's hard

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<v Speaker 2>to see then what the people said to make him

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<v Speaker 2>then have that opinion, because and how much of that

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<v Speaker 2>is based on his preconceptions.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I don't know, Jesspa if you wanted to, if

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<v Speaker 1>you wanted to go into maybe what some of the

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<v Speaker 1>main problems you saw with the book, and it's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of main arguments I think.

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<v Speaker 4>I guess the main problem is that Bevins rates all

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<v Speaker 4>of these movements as failures, but he doesn't really define success.

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<v Speaker 4>He describes the present era as you know, one of

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<v Speaker 4>kind of unwritten ing failure for protest movements, but he

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<v Speaker 4>doesn't do so in relationship to you know, he doesn't

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<v Speaker 4>give us an example of some era where things weren't

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<v Speaker 4>just failure, and he doesn't tell us what success really

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<v Speaker 4>looks like for the most part. And then when he

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<v Speaker 4>does define success, it's quite problematic as I see it,

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<v Speaker 4>and I'm not sure that these things count as success.

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<v Speaker 4>And I think that for the movements themselves, they were

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<v Speaker 4>felt as semi failures, and so it raises a number

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<v Speaker 4>of questions. But the result of this that he kind

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<v Speaker 4>of doesn't define failure is that a lot of the

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<v Speaker 4>problems he identifies as kind of particular to the kind

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<v Speaker 4>of mass protests decade aren't really particular to that mass

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<v Speaker 4>protest decade. And they're problems and kind of failures that

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<v Speaker 4>you see in pretty much every era of social struggles.

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<v Speaker 4>They're quite they're quite common, and inasmuch as so in

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<v Speaker 4>some some things are particular to this era and some

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<v Speaker 4>things aren't. But because he's not, he's not kind of

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<v Speaker 4>giving us a comparative approach. He tells us about the

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<v Speaker 4>twenty tens, but he doesn't tell us about the kind

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<v Speaker 4>of previous era or the kind of classic period of revolution.

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<v Speaker 4>He doesn't define a revolution. He doesn't really have a

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<v Speaker 4>theory of what a revolution is because he doesn't really

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<v Speaker 4>periodize this stuff in relationship to what came before. He

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<v Speaker 4>identifies a lot of problems as particularly this era, that

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<v Speaker 4>are actually common problems, and as such, the kinds of

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<v Speaker 4>conclusions he arrives at are commonplaces because they're like common,

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<v Speaker 4>they're just very common responses to common problems. And it's

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<v Speaker 4>not that they're wrong the things he says, it's just

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<v Speaker 4>that they're kind of banal, actually, and they are the

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<v Speaker 4>kind of things that pretty much every revolution from every

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<v Speaker 4>period would tell you so, and that's a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>what you end up hearing. And it's not that they're wrong,

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<v Speaker 4>it's just that it's sort of you know, I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>everybody thinks, hey, I wish we would have been better organized.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm not. I'm pretty sure that there's not a single

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<v Speaker 4>you know, revolutionary who wouldn't tell you some version of that, right.

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<v Speaker 4>And you know, in pretty much every period that you

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<v Speaker 4>look at revolutionary period, if we're talking about capitalism more

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<v Speaker 4>or less, what we're looking at our various kinds of

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<v Speaker 4>failures right from the standpoint of the working class, and

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<v Speaker 4>with a standpoint of communist revolution, you could sort of

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<v Speaker 4>rate any decade of revolution as an ultimately an era

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<v Speaker 4>of kind of missing revolution, even the places where it

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<v Speaker 4>went the furthest in Russia, you know, I mean that

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<v Speaker 4>decade was defined as an era of missing revolution precisely

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<v Speaker 4>in Germany and these other countries where the revolution was

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<v Speaker 4>supposed to spread. And so I don't know, it's it's

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<v Speaker 4>so I think that that's the big problem.

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<v Speaker 1>That I have.

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<v Speaker 2>I would agree with that as well, because the one

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<v Speaker 2>ex he does pick out as a success is in Chile,

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<v Speaker 2>whereas I think partly the issue is when the book

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<v Speaker 2>was published, which I think was late twenty twenty three October.

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<v Speaker 2>So by that point in Chile, following the big protest movement,

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<v Speaker 2>the government agreed to rewrite the constitution and that was

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<v Speaker 2>going through the process of being rewritten, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>his book came out in October twenty twenty three, but

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<v Speaker 2>then in December they had the referendum on the constitution

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<v Speaker 2>and it lost, so actually there was there were no

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<v Speaker 2>concrete results from that, and I think the perspective of

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<v Speaker 2>the Chileans that I talked to is that it was

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<v Speaker 2>a failure. But you know, I guess by his criteria.

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<v Speaker 4>And they even tell him that they even his own

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<v Speaker 4>his own his own interviewees tell him that they feel

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<v Speaker 4>disappointed in Borich.

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<v Speaker 2>Borich is the current president of Chile. He was a

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<v Speaker 2>leader of protest movements in Chile in the early two thousands,

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<v Speaker 2>and he he subsequently became president at the end of

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<v Speaker 2>the decade.

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<v Speaker 4>And then he's at the end, he's like, yeah, they

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<v Speaker 4>seem to have kind of come around, and then he

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<v Speaker 4>tells and then he basically talked back to them, and

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<v Speaker 4>there's like, well, you guys are lucky that you know,

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<v Speaker 4>Borges came along and recuperated your movement, because the alternative is,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, Brazil where it's you know, the kind of

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<v Speaker 4>bolson Aristas that take over.

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<v Speaker 2>That brings us to the end of this episode. Preview

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<v Speaker 2>to listen to the full thing and help support our

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<v Speaker 2>work researching and promoting people's history, join us at patreon

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<v Speaker 2>dot com slash working class History link in the show

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<v Speaker 2>notes