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Speaker 7: Radio, you are now listening to True Murder, the most
Speaker 7: shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that
Speaker 7: have written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK.
Speaker 7: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 7: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 7: your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 8: Good Evening. This episode of True Murder is brought to
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Speaker 8: true Murder for a ten percent discount. Doctor Catherine Ramslin
Speaker 8: wades through the heavy fogs surrounding the Mooor's murders, a
Speaker 8: series of high profile child killings committed by Scottish sadist
Speaker 8: Ian Brady and Myra Hindley. Kim Creswell turns the stomach
Speaker 8: with her unbelievable account of the atrocities committed by Fred
Speaker 8: and Rosemary West. Carol Ann Davis looks at one of
Speaker 8: the greatest abuses of police power in English history, the
Speaker 8: entrapment of Colin Stagg for the nineteen ninety two ripper
Speaker 8: style murder of blonde beauty Rachel Nickel on Wimbledon Callman. Meanwhile,
Speaker 8: the real killer, Robert Knapper, was already confined to broad
Speaker 8: Muir Asylum for the nineteen ninety three of vis serration
Speaker 8: murder of Samantha Bisit and the rape and deadly suffocation
Speaker 8: of her infant daughter. To top it all off, Edgar
Speaker 8: Award winning author Burl Bear makes his Serial Killer Quarterly debut,
Speaker 8: lending his highly original voice to an intriguing re examination
Speaker 8: of the murders ascribed to Yorkshire ripper Peter Sutcliffe and
Speaker 8: the phenomena of homicidal fame. Robert J. Houshelsky, Aaron Elliott
Speaker 8: and Kim Cresswell also look at three comparably notorious historical
Speaker 8: London slayers in their pieces on Creepy Old John Christi,
Speaker 8: Acid Bath Vampire John jor Hate, George Hay and Jack
Speaker 8: the Ripper suspect and bride poisoner George Smith. The subject
Speaker 8: of our this evening's episode is serial Killer Quarterly with
Speaker 8: my special guests, journalist and author and publisher Lee Miller.
Speaker 8: Welcome back to program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 8: agreeing to this interview, Lee Miller.
Speaker 9: It is always a pleasure to have a conversation, whether
Speaker 9: it's on air or off air with you. Dan Sebanski,
Speaker 9: Thank you well.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much, Lee, Thank you for this first off.
Speaker 8: Congratulations on a fantastic magazine Serial Killer Quarterly. I want
Speaker 8: to ask this question, what was the genesis of Grinning
Speaker 8: Man Press, publisher of this and Serial Killer Quarterly? Tell
Speaker 8: us what was the genesis of this? Tell us where
Speaker 8: the idea came from, why, and tell us about it.
Speaker 9: Well, I suppose I had just finished writing my second book,
Speaker 9: which I had published through a conventional publisher, which is
Speaker 9: Dunder and Press out of Toronto, and those the books
Speaker 9: through selling. Well, I wasn't seeing the kind of returns
Speaker 9: on it that I really wanted to, and I was
Speaker 9: this whole idea of having a profession as a writer
Speaker 9: it seems kind of untenable in the modern age. I'd
Speaker 9: always been brought up and told that I had, you know,
Speaker 9: great ability with writing, and so I just thought, you know,
Speaker 9: as a little kid, hey, you know, this is going
Speaker 9: to be my future doing this. And it's not that
Speaker 9: I've been unsuccessful in it. I've had two books published
Speaker 9: and they're on the shelves of chapters right now. But
Speaker 9: the returns that you get from it, as you probably know, Dan,
Speaker 9: they're just so low. So I started to I started
Speaker 9: to As I was trying to advertise my book online,
Speaker 9: I was meeting up with other people who were doing
Speaker 9: this self publishing and doing ebooks, and I'd always stayed
Speaker 9: away from this ebook thing. To me, books were like
Speaker 9: a precious thing that I wanted to hold. I was
Speaker 9: I'm sick of looking at a screen. I like the
Speaker 9: fibrius feel of a book in my hand, So it
Speaker 9: always sort of just ignored that part of it. What
Speaker 9: happened is I got involved in another project, which, for
Speaker 9: reasons I won't go into it didn't pan out, where
Speaker 9: I was going to be part of an ebook anthology,
Speaker 9: and through that I met all these people who were
Speaker 9: I found out that were doing really a lot better
Speaker 9: than myself selling e books and on the topic of
Speaker 9: true crime, that is. And so I started to think, well,
Speaker 9: wouldn't it be cool if I could put out this,
Speaker 9: you know, a magazine, because people are doing e books,
Speaker 9: but I'm not seeing e magazines, and I would love
Speaker 9: it if there was like a high quality detective magazine
Speaker 9: type product that we could put out. Now, something was
Speaker 9: a little bit more class than the sort of pulp
Speaker 9: semi porn stuff that used to be printed back in
Speaker 9: you know, the seventies, sixties, fifties, that kind of thing.
Speaker 9: And so I just started looking into this possibility. I
Speaker 9: told a friend about the idea. He actually writes for it,
Speaker 9: Aaron Elliott, and he said that sounds like a terrific idea.
Speaker 9: I'd be happy to finance it. And said, okay, well
Speaker 9: that's falling into place. I'll just reach out to a
Speaker 9: couple of friends because I'm a criminologist too, so I
Speaker 9: know a few people. So I first spoke with Katherine Ramsland.
Speaker 9: I said, well, what do you think about writing for this?
Speaker 9: And Catherine Ramsland agreed, great, good start. I asked Michael Newton, yeah,
Speaker 9: he wanted in too. Okay, this is starting to really
Speaker 9: go somewhere now. And then I get Harold Scheckter and
Speaker 9: Kathy Scott and Burrough Bearer, and the next thing I know,
Speaker 9: I've got this completely fantastic publication and I've got like
Speaker 9: the next three years planned out for it. So really
Speaker 9: this was just a little idea had germinating in my
Speaker 9: mind after seeing the whole e publishing thing and how
Speaker 9: it was going, and I was astonished by how many
Speaker 9: people wanted to participate in and the caliber of writers
Speaker 9: that we got. And so when an opportunity like that
Speaker 9: comes up, you don't go. You know, you take it.
Speaker 8: Now, you talk about you, you were very encouraged by
Speaker 8: all these people coming aboard, a very prestigious group. Indeed,
Speaker 8: Ramsland and Harold Scheckter and Burl Bear, Kathy Scott, Michael
Speaker 8: Newton like you mentioned, never mind all the other really
Speaker 8: good authors that are that were on board on this
Speaker 8: Serial Killer Quarterly as well.
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, our staff authors are great too. And I
Speaker 9: mean if I mentioned everyone that wrote for there's a
Speaker 9: terrific writer, I'd just be like doing a grocery list.
Speaker 9: But yeah, we have a regular contributing staff authors. Robert Koshowski,
Speaker 9: Kim Creswell, Aaron elliott I contribute a lot, and I
Speaker 9: mean even it's always consistently good. I don't think we've
Speaker 9: had a weak article, and if we ever did, I
Speaker 9: would have rejected it. But yeah, it's it's a terrific group,
Speaker 9: very proud of what we're doing.
Speaker 8: Now, that's a good segue, because I want to know
Speaker 8: what your criteria is for including stories in this series,
Speaker 8: because this is from all this true crime stories, from
Speaker 8: all the stories involving murder and killers. You have an
Speaker 8: incredible selection. So tell us what you're personal because you're
Speaker 8: you and Aaron are involved in selecting this, I would
Speaker 8: imagine making the final decision. Tell us what the criteria is,
Speaker 8: what it is that interests you to include these stories
Speaker 8: in Serial Killer Quarterly.
Speaker 9: Okay, well, so the editorial stuff is that's basically all me.
Speaker 9: Aaron does most of the financing and a bit of
Speaker 9: the writing. What happens as I start with a theme.
Speaker 9: So the themes we did last year and we did
Speaker 9: five issues, we did so one per quarter plus a
Speaker 9: bonus Christmas issue, and so I just came up with
Speaker 9: some themes that I thought would be interesting. So Issue
Speaker 9: one was twenty first Century psychos and we looked at
Speaker 9: how serial murderers in the twenty first century and the
Speaker 9: kind of changes that we began to note in the
Speaker 9: trends in the twenty first century. Then I looked at
Speaker 9: one Partners in Pain, which is basically team killers unsolved
Speaker 9: in North America. That's pretty self explanatory. And then Cruel Britannia,
Speaker 9: an issue on British killers, and then we did their
Speaker 9: special Christmas issue was just called Body Harvest, and that
Speaker 9: was about prolific American killers. So what I do is
Speaker 9: I start with a theme, and then I realized that
Speaker 9: I need say two to three feature lane articles. That's
Speaker 9: about seven thousand words. And so what I do is
Speaker 9: and and then after that usually about four smaller articles
Speaker 9: thirty five hundred words. So what I do is I
Speaker 9: approached sort of our stable of authors and I say, hey,
Speaker 9: here's the issues that we've got coming up this year.
Speaker 9: Here's some potential stories for them. You can always pick
Speaker 9: your own if you know of another case, and you know,
Speaker 9: gladly publish that too. But you know, here's some suggestions,
Speaker 9: and people are the authors are pretty eager to swoop
Speaker 9: up those cases and to write about them. So that's
Speaker 9: sort of how the process works.
Speaker 8: Okay, once you have that process, now as a unique
Speaker 8: publishing entity, publishing company will say, somebody is publishing this
Speaker 8: in this really interesting time. How does that work in
Speaker 8: terms of how much assistance do you have, how much editing,
Speaker 8: how much content editing, how much free rate you give
Speaker 8: to these really experienced authors.
Speaker 9: Well, I do the editing, and depending on the author,
Speaker 9: or I mean, sometimes I get the varying qualities of articles.
Speaker 9: I mean, they're always good fundamentally, but sometimes I have
Speaker 9: to restructure sentences a little bit just to make them
Speaker 9: more readable, or you know, sometimes this is basic editing
Speaker 9: I do with all kinds of stuff. You get someone
Speaker 9: that will start a sentence with the word he four
Speaker 9: times in a row, and I don't care what the
Speaker 9: person's credentials are at that point. That is wrong objectively
Speaker 9: to me. So yeah, I'm changing it. But generally some
Speaker 9: authors I have to addit more than others, but I
Speaker 9: always get something that's fundamentally good from them. The process
Speaker 9: moves too quickly for me to really ask for their
Speaker 9: permission to change up what they've done. But then again,
Speaker 9: it's always cosmetic the editing process. I don't change ideas,
Speaker 9: and in fact that that's one. The one thing I'll
Speaker 9: say that I'm so proud of about this magazine and
Speaker 9: that I love is that it's almost like a conduit
Speaker 9: for free expression. That is almost the ethos of Grinning
Speaker 9: Man Breast as a company. It's like, you can tell
Speaker 9: it however you want to, as long as it's good.
Speaker 9: So as someone who's read the magazine, you'll will have
Speaker 9: noticed the tone of say Burl Bearers article on Peter
Speaker 9: Sutcliffe is much different than say Catherine Ramslin's tone in
Speaker 9: the Ian Brady and Myra Hinley one. But that it's
Speaker 9: the allowing of people to use their own voices to
Speaker 9: look at this topic, this phenomena of serial murder from
Speaker 9: just as many angles as possible. You know, I like
Speaker 9: to think if it is just kind of free speech.
Speaker 8: Yes, they do have a lot of character injected into
Speaker 8: the stories, and you can really see that in in
Speaker 8: you know, relatively short stories, not what they're accustomed to
Speaker 8: in seeing that over an entire books. So that's quite
Speaker 8: interesting that their character is really predominant in these articles.
Speaker 8: I wanted to also ask you, there's a lot of
Speaker 8: type of murder stories and just like this program, which
Speaker 8: is the most shocking killers in true crime history, what
Speaker 8: is essentially the tone more so the tone of the
Speaker 8: stories that you do pick.
Speaker 9: Well, sorry, I'm going to need a little bit more
Speaker 9: than that. When you say tone, well, what I.
Speaker 8: Say may is more maybe the emphasis. Like I said,
Speaker 8: what I said is that this program, ideally, I think
Speaker 8: the audience actually appreciates those stories that are more shocking
Speaker 8: in nature. So what I'm asking is that I maybe
Speaker 8: it's a rhetorical question, I thought in that I see
Speaker 8: that that is the overall Again, maybe tone is not
Speaker 8: the appropriate term, but the.
Speaker 9: Overall criteria sort of yeah, yeah, more so than yeah,
Speaker 9: you know what, we don't really Maybe it's because they
Speaker 9: come across as shocking because they're so effectively written. And
Speaker 9: I believe that when you write about this topic it
Speaker 9: should shock people. I believe if you write about it
Speaker 9: a nesterial way, that you're essentially lying because this is
Speaker 9: the I mean, these are shocking behaviors, this's this horrific stuff. So,
Speaker 9: I mean, good writing is going to horrify people. But
Speaker 9: there is say, in the second issue that we did
Speaker 9: Partners in Pain. For some reason, I found that there
Speaker 9: is a lot of a lot of these killers that
Speaker 9: kill in groups tend to be sexual say this, like
Speaker 9: the torture element really comes out. And when I initially
Speaker 9: had the authors select the stories that they wanted to
Speaker 9: do for that, I took a look at the list
Speaker 9: and I went, this is too much, like it's too
Speaker 9: much of the same thing. It's just torture, torture, torture, torture, torture.
Speaker 9: And so I actually wrote to a couple of them,
Speaker 9: and the authors are all very cool too with my
Speaker 9: editorial choices, and I want to thank them all for that.
Speaker 9: While I have this podium and I wrote to a
Speaker 9: couple of them. I said, look, would you mind if
Speaker 9: we shifted that story over to another issue, because I've
Speaker 9: just got way too much torture in this one. You know,
Speaker 9: Let's do something else. Let's do someone who kills in
Speaker 9: an act focused way for money, to switch things up
Speaker 9: a bit, and let's do a necrophilia case. And so
Speaker 9: I'd say that what we try to avoid is going
Speaker 9: for the same kinds of crimes. Yeah, that's that's so.
Speaker 9: Even though the issue will have an overall theme such
Speaker 9: as twenty first century psychos or Unsolved in North America
Speaker 9: or Cruel Britannia, within those issues you will find a
Speaker 9: whole myriad of different types of serial killers. Really, the
Speaker 9: criteria is, you know a serial killer that fits into
Speaker 9: that overall theme of the issue. Right.
Speaker 8: What I introduced in the synopsis is basically a lot
Speaker 8: of well the information from one of your issues, which
Speaker 8: is Cruel Britannia and very much I want to go
Speaker 8: through some of the titles of because really we don't
Speaker 8: have much time to discuss any of these cases in
Speaker 8: depth at all, and don't want to leave anything away
Speaker 8: because these stories are incredible and if you think you've
Speaker 8: read like I have a lot of these stories. I
Speaker 8: thought I had read the definitive story on this, and
Speaker 8: to my great surprise and interest, I found incredible information
Speaker 8: that I hadn't read before, which is always fascinating to
Speaker 8: a guy like me thinks he's read at all. So
Speaker 8: tell us a little bit about cruel Britannia and what
Speaker 8: you found. And before we talk about your Jack the
Speaker 8: Ripper tour in London, So tell us about cruel Britannia.
Speaker 8: Why you felt it was important to talk about crimes
Speaker 8: in Great Britain. So tell us about that.
Speaker 9: First of all, there's a personal element in that for me,
Speaker 9: and that I was born in England and immigrated to Canada,
Speaker 9: and so I would always my parents would always pick
Speaker 9: up the British newspapers, and I would become familiar with
Speaker 9: some really horrific cases that were going on over there,
Speaker 9: which just didn't make headlines really or did weren't like
Speaker 9: a big deal in North America. But those were sort
Speaker 9: of stories that were They became part of my lexicon,
Speaker 9: and so I knew there was a lot of really
Speaker 9: incredible serial killer stories coming from the British Isles, and
Speaker 9: I wanted to tell those so, and also there's this
Speaker 9: true crime in the UK and it's just there's such
Speaker 9: a market for it. It's like there's almost like murder
Speaker 9: obsessed over there, even the fictional program that programs that
Speaker 9: come out almost and definitely have something to do with
Speaker 9: homicide a lot of the time. So between those two factors,
Speaker 9: I thought, yeah, let's do a British issue. Plus we
Speaker 9: got to admit that title is pretty cool, right, Cruel Britannia.
Speaker 9: So between all those factors I was I was like, yeah,
Speaker 9: let's do up one of these, and being kind of
Speaker 9: a walking serial killer encyclopedia, I just went to the
Speaker 9: authors and I said, hey, look, here's all these cool cases.
Speaker 9: Take your pick.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Well, before we start, too, I want to mention that
Speaker 8: the photos that you've chosen for this magazine are fantastic,
Speaker 8: and especially like I'm just a fan of black and
Speaker 8: white photos. You just add to the eerinus and to
Speaker 8: the photos themselves, but just tell us what, again, you
Speaker 8: had a different you had a different idea in the
Speaker 8: kind of photos you selected, in the kind of again
Speaker 8: maybe I'm misusing the word, the kind of tone of
Speaker 8: those photos that you would include in your in your issues.
Speaker 9: Exactly yeah, I'm glad you noticed that the ethos has
Speaker 9: always been we're not making something that is visual murder porn,
Speaker 9: nor would I want the writing to be like that either.
Speaker 9: When you look back at those old true detective magazines,
Speaker 9: they're basically women scantily clad with fearful looks on their
Speaker 9: faces being pushed into a trunk by a dominant male,
Speaker 9: which in itself is I don't know, I'm not really
Speaker 9: big on censorship, but it's certainly I don't think it's
Speaker 9: not something I think it's good, especially when children are
Speaker 9: reading it. And unfortunately, as we know, there are a
Speaker 9: lot of serial killers. Their first introduction to females, to
Speaker 9: sexuality and scantily clad or semi nude female form or
Speaker 9: sexualized female was in this context through these detective magazines.
Speaker 9: And the last thing I wanted to be doing with
Speaker 9: this magazine is creating a whole new generation of Ted Bundy's.
Speaker 9: At the same time, you don't want to make something
Speaker 9: that's like an act journal, just something boring that doesn't
Speaker 9: that doesn't convey the horror. So what I said to
Speaker 9: the William Cook who does the covers, and to Northbound Creations,
Speaker 9: who are the graphic designers. I said, I want to
Speaker 9: go for a tone here which implies things more and
Speaker 9: is not so much sexual as it is eerie and horrific.
Speaker 9: And I think if you, if you, if your listeners
Speaker 9: check out the covers around magazines, they'll probably see what
Speaker 9: we've accomplished in that regard.
Speaker 8: Yes, and I'm more appreciative too that the trend in
Speaker 8: true crime books and all books in general are to
Speaker 8: use stock images, and I think as opposed to the
Speaker 8: way true crime books used to do with the victims
Speaker 8: and the killer and other images on the cover, I
Speaker 8: think there are some really cool true crime book covers
Speaker 8: and I think this is more in in keeping with
Speaker 8: really some great photographs, but keeping like you say that
Speaker 8: the class and certainly not reverting to any kind of
Speaker 8: anybody to label murder, porn or anything that would be
Speaker 8: considered tasteless. This is I think I'm a very in
Speaker 8: agreement with you. This is very classy and some really
Speaker 8: profound photographs in this that are included. So now let's
Speaker 8: also talk about let's talk about the actual characters that
Speaker 8: are in Cruel Britannia itself and some characters I've never
Speaker 8: read about. And Arion Elliott writes about George John George.
Speaker 8: Now am I mispronouncing this is? Is it Hay? Or Hey?
Speaker 9: I believe it's Hey. That's the way I've always said it.
Speaker 8: Yeah, okay, Now what you have is I'll just read
Speaker 8: what you have, and I really think it's interesting the
Speaker 8: little captions that you have underneath these stories to introduce
Speaker 8: them for somebody that's interested in these articles.
Speaker 9: And so it says, I've got a little rule for that,
Speaker 9: no more than twenty five words. So sometimes it sounds
Speaker 9: almost like a tabloid. But that anyways, a little tidbit
Speaker 9: for you. There, go ahead.
Speaker 8: Sorry, Yes, it's a dapper con artist Lure's friends and
Speaker 8: business associates to their deaths in his London basement warehouse,
Speaker 8: rendering their bodies into goo in acid baths. And that's
Speaker 8: George John George.
Speaker 9: Eight.
Speaker 8: Hey, so tell us you tell us a little bit
Speaker 8: about John George Hay and why you included him in
Speaker 8: this series.
Speaker 9: John George Hay is interesting in that he's mostly known
Speaker 9: for being a vampire because he claimed that he drank
Speaker 9: the blood of his victims, and so he got a
Speaker 9: lot of notoriety over that, and authors wrote about it
Speaker 9: without ever really questioning it. The truth seems to be
Speaker 9: more or that he realized that if he said that,
Speaker 9: it would play into an insanity defense. There is no
Speaker 9: evidence at all that he did do it. He even
Speaker 9: fabricated victims. The guy was a psychopath. I've run the
Speaker 9: pcl R on a pathological liar. And essentially, John George
Speaker 9: Hay was just a con man. And he had gone
Speaker 9: to prison a few times for cons and for fraud.
Speaker 9: And while he was doing some reading in prison, he
Speaker 9: misinterpreted corpus was delicty body of that body of evidence.
Speaker 9: He misinterpreted that to believe that if there was no body,
Speaker 9: that murder charges could not be brought against him. So,
Speaker 9: with this in mind and lacking the inhibitions of the
Speaker 9: normal person due to his psychopathy nature, when Hey was
Speaker 9: released from jail, he began to uh lure wealthy acquaintances
Speaker 9: into this warehouse in in London on a Gloucester road.
Speaker 9: And I actually h have actually been there. It's now
Speaker 9: a it's not like a Kentucky fried chicken. And he
Speaker 9: would lure them down there. He would kill them quickly,
Speaker 9: usually with a gun or blunt instrument, and then in
Speaker 9: uh these warehouses he would put the bodies into these
Speaker 9: acid baths and just leave them there, and over time
Speaker 9: they would be slowly rendered into a goo. And I
Speaker 9: believe I don't I'm not looking at the number in
Speaker 9: front of me right now, but I believe he killed
Speaker 9: about six people this way before he was caught. And
Speaker 9: it was always financial. He would always trick them somehow
Speaker 9: into into signing papers over to him uh and or
Speaker 9: or getting access to their to their money, and so
Speaker 9: he would after he killed them, he would have to
Speaker 9: sustain this illusion a lot of the time that they
Speaker 9: were still alive in order to keep milking money from
Speaker 9: their relatives. So I'll just give you one example. In
Speaker 9: one case, the first murder, it was a guy, Donald Swan.
Speaker 9: He didn't want to be drafted for the Second World War,
Speaker 9: so John George Hay said, okay, well, don't worry, I
Speaker 9: can get you out of this. We'll put you in
Speaker 9: hiding in Scotland. And then he lured him down into
Speaker 9: the salary, killed him and rendered the body to go
Speaker 9: in these acid baths. And then he pretends to Donald
Speaker 9: Swan's parents that the son is actually still alive and
Speaker 9: in hiding. And by doing this he's able to start
Speaker 9: getting sums of money from them. So this was really
Speaker 9: a very clever, financially motivated killer, except when he finally
Speaker 9: he finally come undone, came undone, so a lot of
Speaker 9: them do. He was a bit cocky about it because
Speaker 9: he openly said to the authorities, he said, ah, yeah,
Speaker 9: I might have killed him, but there's no body, so
Speaker 9: ha ha, you can't prove it. But what he didn't
Speaker 9: realize is that he had misinterpreted what a body of
Speaker 9: evidence means and he was convicted and all of a sudden,
Speaker 9: oh wait, I did it because I like drinking blood
Speaker 9: because I'm nuts. So that's John George Hay in a
Speaker 9: rather large nutshell for you.
Speaker 8: Yeah, well, yeah, it's a it's a it's a case.
Speaker 8: It's incredible, and they might. You know, what I find
Speaker 8: fascinating is that you do Aaron does the necessary research
Speaker 8: to find out that this started in prison where he
Speaker 8: would get other prisoners to bring him little rodents so
Speaker 8: that he can little animals so that he could experiment
Speaker 8: with acid while he was in prison, So he really
Speaker 8: was sparing himself for when he was eventually released. So
Speaker 8: he really had a master plan to do to do
Speaker 8: his evil deeds.
Speaker 9: Yeah, kind of the next organized killer. Really yeah.
Speaker 8: Absolutely. The next person that you feature is John Christie.
Speaker 8: And you call this article Skeletons in the Alcove, And
Speaker 8: this is Robert J. Hushowski sexually inadequate, hyperchondriac murders his wife,
Speaker 8: neighbors and five women in his bedbug ridden Nodding Hill apartment,
Speaker 8: having necrophilic sex with four of the ladder. Tell us
Speaker 8: just a little bit about John Christy and the Skeltons
Speaker 8: in the Alcove.
Speaker 9: John Christy is a really fascinating character, and if well,
Speaker 9: I would like listeners to purchase the magazine to read
Speaker 9: about him. But if you want to see a great
Speaker 9: movie about the case, Ten Rillington Place with Richard Attenberg
Speaker 9: and John Hurt is really a terrific film about that case.
Speaker 9: Christy was essentially really kind of meek, non masculine character.
Speaker 9: He was born in Yorkshire and he had a domineering father.
Speaker 9: Is kind of molly cuddled by his mother and sort
Speaker 9: of one of I guess we'd tend to form these narratives.
Speaker 9: I guess about what it is you know that key
Speaker 9: moment in the life that of a serial killer that
Speaker 9: sends them on the pathway to whatever it is with him.
Speaker 9: It was when he was first attempted to have sex
Speaker 9: with a girl as a teenager and he was unable
Speaker 9: to perform, and I guess this girl rather insensitively went
Speaker 9: around telling everyone about it and he and so everyone
Speaker 9: would ridicule him about it. Can't get it up, Chris,
Speaker 9: the reggiodic things like that, and so that's really leveled
Speaker 9: his self esteem. And this is something by the way,
Speaker 9: as in the side that we often see in necrophiles,
Speaker 9: that they have very low self esteem. And so Christie
Speaker 9: ends up in the First World War where he's exposed
Speaker 9: to mustard gas and even though any kind of explosion
Speaker 9: mustard gas is going to really mess you up, he's
Speaker 9: also a hypochondriac. So he starts to talk in this
Speaker 9: sort of whispery voice. But they determine that it's psychosomatic,
Speaker 9: that the mustard gas hasn't actually affected his ability to speak,
Speaker 9: that this is a psychosomatic thing that's going on. He
Speaker 9: eventually marries a kind of frumpy woman named Ethel and
Speaker 9: from what I guess, rather that they had virtually no
Speaker 9: sex life. They have no children, and they move into
Speaker 9: an area of London, which is which is poor people
Speaker 9: stocked on top of each other and bed bugs, just
Speaker 9: the kind of place you wouldn't want to live. And
Speaker 9: it's here that I suppose over the years his tends up.
Speaker 9: Sexual frustrations start to come start to bubble to the surface,
Speaker 9: and while his wife is away, he he has a
Speaker 9: rather interesting m Sometimes it's prostitutes that he that he
Speaker 9: that he kills, he brings them back to his apartment
Speaker 9: and strangles them. But other times it's women that who
Speaker 9: are in need of medical help or abortions. Christie is
Speaker 9: he uses this demeanor of of being a very timid
Speaker 9: and almost intellectual man to convince these women that he
Speaker 9: has some medical experience and that if they come back
Speaker 9: to his apartment and use this device he has where
Speaker 9: they can inhale vapors, that he can cure them of
Speaker 9: various things, you know, ranging from lung diseases to needing
Speaker 9: to have abortions. And so he pulls this trick on
Speaker 9: them a number of women. The way he does is
Speaker 9: he lures them back to his apartment and he hooks
Speaker 9: up he puts this mask over their face which is
Speaker 9: going into I think it's called Friar's balsam some sort
Speaker 9: of inhalent, which is safe. But what they don't know
Speaker 9: is that he's also hooked it up to the gas pipe,
Speaker 9: so they go unconscious. As they're unconscious, he rapes them
Speaker 9: because and this is an interesting paraphilia called somnophilia. He's
Speaker 9: able to perform with them when they are unconscious because
Speaker 9: he's not afraid of ridicule, and that goes back to
Speaker 9: the regiinodic experience. And then after they are unconscious, he
Speaker 9: strangles them with a rope. And now the first few
Speaker 9: victims he just disposes of their bodies after that, but
Speaker 9: around the late fifties, he starts to just kind of
Speaker 9: he hits that part of some of the many serial
Speaker 9: killer cycles where they just kind of lose control of
Speaker 9: their impulses, and he kills his own wife. There's no
Speaker 9: evidence of sex, but it's more just to get her
Speaker 9: out of the way, and I think he hides her
Speaker 9: under the floorboards, and with her out of the way,
Speaker 9: he's now free to do this much more often, and
Speaker 9: now he can keep the bodies too, So he starts
Speaker 9: to do this with a number of prostitutes, and eventually
Speaker 9: he moves out and somebody else moves into the apartment
Speaker 9: and they find that there's a fake wall put up
Speaker 9: and when they tear down this wall, they find the
Speaker 9: bodies of about two to three women behind the wall,
Speaker 9: and then the man hunts on for John Christie, who
Speaker 9: goes down as one of the most notorious serial killers
Speaker 9: in British history.
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Speaker 8: beautiful now, Lee, We we were talking about the first
Speaker 8: episode or a part of me Cruel Britannia, and we
Speaker 8: talked about John Christy and your article Skeletons in the
Speaker 8: Alcove by Robert Jay Hasowski. Do you include this London
Speaker 8: Murder travel diary and you talk about the Jack the
Speaker 8: Ripper tour that you do with a man named John Chambers.
Speaker 9: So yeah, John is awesome.
Speaker 8: Tell us a little bit about that whole experience that
Speaker 8: you document really very interestingly in Serial Killer Quarterly. Tell
Speaker 8: us a little bit about that tour.
Speaker 9: I love it that you found it interesting, because you know,
Speaker 9: whenever you write a biographical piece, you've always got thing
Speaker 9: in the back of your mind where you're going. Am
Speaker 9: I just I just being narcissistic here? But so I
Speaker 9: thank you for that compliment. The London Murder tour was
Speaker 9: really quite interesting in that I was in the UK
Speaker 9: for about two months for a number of reasons, and
Speaker 9: one of those reasons was to do some research for
Speaker 9: my PhD dissertation. As I said before, I'm a criminologist,
Speaker 9: and I was going by train to a place called
Speaker 9: Sidcup to meet with a police officer who had worked
Speaker 9: on the Colin Ireland serial murders that took place in
Speaker 9: London in nineteen ninety three, I believe, because that was
Speaker 9: an important case for my dissertation, and I figured, you know,
Speaker 9: while I'm head in that direction, I may as well
Speaker 9: spend a night in London. I couldn't really afford to
Speaker 9: spend more than one night, so I found this kind
Speaker 9: of crappy hotel and I uh, I decided, I'm gonna
Speaker 9: make this about the magazine. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm
Speaker 9: gonna justify this by turning it into a magazine article.
Speaker 9: So I tried to hit as many of these sites
Speaker 9: in London that were associated with notorious serial murders as possible.
Speaker 9: So the hotel where I stayed and was very close
Speaker 9: to Gloucester Road and Gloucester Road, of course, as I
Speaker 9: mentioned before, is the site of the workshop where John
Speaker 9: George Hay had turned these people into into go using
Speaker 9: his acid bath. In fact, it's right across from the
Speaker 9: tube station. It's a Kentucky Fried Chicken. So for the
Speaker 9: good of the magazine, I uh, the first thing I
Speaker 9: did when I got off the tube upon entering London
Speaker 9: was walked right across the street and ordered some Kentucky
Speaker 9: Fried Chicken and went down into the little basement there
Speaker 9: and ate the KFC. And then I took a photograph
Speaker 9: of the gravy so that it would make a nice
Speaker 9: juxtaposition with the article that Aaron had written about some
Speaker 9: sort of fleshy goose substance. And you know what, I
Speaker 9: must admit, the KFC was better than I remembered. It's
Speaker 9: been a while since I had eaten it.
Speaker 8: There you go, Yeah, that's the big revelation of all
Speaker 8: of this KFC better than you think you Yeah.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I got all snooty about it, you know, but
Speaker 9: I think it's one of those everything in moderation, and
Speaker 9: for me it was like a ten year moderation type thing.
Speaker 9: I also went with the original recipe that might have
Speaker 9: had something to do with it. So that was so
Speaker 9: I hit that one spot there and I mean, there's
Speaker 9: no That's what I found very interesting about it. It's
Speaker 9: like that series of murders takes place, and what do
Speaker 9: they do with that location? They build a KFC and
Speaker 9: like a petiss be over top of it, and no
Speaker 9: one knows. Everyone's just walking past it. And I'm standing
Speaker 9: there trying to get a decent photograph as cars keep
Speaker 9: blocking my way in pedestrians and everyone's looking at me
Speaker 9: like YSI photographing at KFC, And so no one really
Speaker 9: knows that these infamous murders that happened here. From there,
Speaker 9: I went to the hotel, put all my u got
Speaker 9: all my stuff settled in the hotel, and then I
Speaker 9: decided to go on this Jack the Ripper tour, which
Speaker 9: is the complete opposite. So I ride the tube down
Speaker 9: to East Aalgate station and I'm hanging around there and
Speaker 9: I had to see this group milling around, a guy
Speaker 9: with a with a top hat on, and I go,
Speaker 9: this must be the Jack the Ripper Tour. I had
Speaker 9: called them ahead of time, and we'd done sort of
Speaker 9: a deal, like, hey, get me on the tour for free,
Speaker 9: and I'm gonna I'm gonna write about it for the magazine.
Speaker 9: And it was, in fact, was fascinating to me was
Speaker 9: not only the number of people that that we're going
Speaker 9: on this this tour, but the fact that the one
Speaker 9: crime would be almost like invisible, where the other is
Speaker 9: almost like a part of uh it's almost like a
Speaker 9: tourist attraction, like the Tower of London. You know. That's
Speaker 9: it's interesting, Like there's why why is is one so
Speaker 9: much bigger? And I guess it's it's that that Jack
Speaker 9: the Ripper name. When you think of a serial killer,
Speaker 9: Jack the Ripper is sort of the number one. That's
Speaker 9: the first one everyone learns about. That's the only reason
Speaker 9: I can see. Uh. So I end up going on
Speaker 9: this tour and it's fascinating. John Chambers, the guy doing
Speaker 9: the tour, he's got a great sense of humor, a
Speaker 9: real real Cockney, but he's he's a historian too, but
Speaker 9: but the kind of historian that everyone wishes they had
Speaker 9: as history teacher in school, where he makes it entertaining
Speaker 9: and he's memorized all these facts about Victorian London, every street,
Speaker 9: every pub at the time, and we're just basically doing
Speaker 9: the walk from site to site of where all the
Speaker 9: murders took place. And he has like a holographic projector
Speaker 9: which he projects onto the onto the walls that show
Speaker 9: you what it used to look like. And so that
Speaker 9: that was only about ten pounds, which I don't know
Speaker 9: just off the top of my head, that's maybe like
Speaker 9: fourteen Canadian dollars for like a good hour long entertaining
Speaker 9: in that it was in that it was as funny
Speaker 9: as the topic could be and jovial. Johnny sort of
Speaker 9: brought that aspect of it out, but it was also
Speaker 9: incredibly informative and you get to it's one thing to
Speaker 9: read about Jack the Ripper, but actually walk the distances
Speaker 9: and to see like how far apart the murder sites
Speaker 9: where and in relation to each other's. It's a fascinating experience.
Speaker 9: So I would recommend that to anyone who goes to
Speaker 9: London to go on that Jack the Ripper walking to
Speaker 9: where they have. And the best thing me, with my
Speaker 9: sort of insider magazine status, is that after it was
Speaker 9: all done, I got to go for a pint with
Speaker 9: Johnny and his friend. So we went to a public
Speaker 9: called the White Stag, sorry the White Heart, where the
Speaker 9: conversation that invariably turns to Jack the Ripper and serial
Speaker 9: murder in general, and we're sitting in there drinking our ciders,
Speaker 9: and we only had about an hour or so. They
Speaker 9: had to be up in the morning to do another
Speaker 9: Jack the Ripper thing, and I had to be up
Speaker 9: to go see my detective and the last thing I
Speaker 9: wanted to do is go with a hangover. So we
Speaker 9: say separate way, We go our separate ways, say hey,
Speaker 9: I'll meet up with you next time I'm in London,
Speaker 9: and I certainly planned to because we had a great time.
Speaker 9: And it's only later that I realize that the White
Speaker 9: Hart Pub that he took me to was once owned
Speaker 9: or the landlord of it was a guy by the
Speaker 9: name of George Smith. And George Smith is a Jack
Speaker 9: the Ripper suspect and confirmed serial killer who poisoned three
Speaker 9: of his wives in the early nineteen hundreds, and Kim
Speaker 9: Creswell wrote a pretty terrific article on that in the
Speaker 9: same issue Cruel Britannia. So then I was trying to
Speaker 9: make it to another part of London that same night,
Speaker 9: and I made a very in retrospect prudent decision try
Speaker 9: to try and not get another murder site in because
Speaker 9: I would have really screwed up my getting up early
Speaker 9: in the morning to to go interview that detective. So yeah,
Speaker 9: that's it in a nutshell, much more had it written about,
Speaker 9: much more, better better in the article.
Speaker 8: Uh, We're just gonna go through a few of the
Speaker 8: articles that are in Cruel Britannia and then maybe touch
Speaker 8: on a couple that are in the other issues of Cruel.
Speaker 8: Pardon me of Seria Killer Quarterly. Uh, doctor Catherine Ramslin again,
Speaker 8: you know the experts expert does Ian Brady and Myra Hindley,
Speaker 8: and it's called Switching on the Dark. Five Manchester children
Speaker 8: and teens are raped and murdered as an existential exercise
Speaker 8: by Scottish nihilist Ian Brady and his English disciple lover,
Speaker 8: Myra Hindley. We won't give anything away. This is just
Speaker 8: too much. As you talked about. Kim Creswell talks about
Speaker 8: George Chapman Sewerin Koslowski, the Burrough poisoner, Bullish bone barber
Speaker 8: and ripper suspect poisons three wives in the turn of
Speaker 8: the century England. You also have which I thought, you
Speaker 8: know because I just love Burl Bear is Peter Sutcliffe,
Speaker 8: the Yorkshire Ripper or Yorkshire ripoff by Burl Bear, and
Speaker 8: you talk about Bradford Trucker, Peter Sutcliffe, England's most notorious
Speaker 8: serial killer. Is he really responsible for thirteen deaths attributed
Speaker 8: to him or is he a nobody among nobodies? So
Speaker 8: I won't give anything away because I think this is
Speaker 8: just an example how great and interesting and unique these
Speaker 8: articles really are in this magazine. But just tell us
Speaker 8: a little bit for those that don't know the controversy
Speaker 8: that is examined in this Peter Sutcliffe article. Yorkshire Ripper.
Speaker 9: Okay, it's mostly built on the theory that I believe.
Speaker 9: The man's name is Noel O'Gara, and he's from Ireland,
Speaker 9: and he claims to have met a man that worked
Speaker 9: for him. His name eludes me at the moment, and
Speaker 9: he believed that this man was the real Yorkshire Ripper.
Speaker 9: He doesn't deny that Peter Sutcliffe was also murdering women,
Speaker 9: but he says that this man, William Tracy, that's his name.
Speaker 9: He says that William Tracy is responsible for the bulk
Speaker 9: of these murders, and he's written a book about it
Speaker 9: and he has quite a dedicated following. Now there's some
Speaker 9: people that even in the in the police force that
Speaker 9: have come out and said, yes, he has a he
Speaker 9: has a point here. This is the we always knew
Speaker 9: that Peter Sutcliffe hadn't done all these killings, and you
Speaker 9: know he should be reinvest reinvestigated. And then there's the other,
Speaker 9: the other side of it, which is just going, well,
Speaker 9: this is a conspiracy theory. A lot of it hinges
Speaker 9: on the fact that the DNA found on I believe
Speaker 9: one of one or more of the suspects was different
Speaker 9: than Suckcliffe's reported blood type. The problem is getting information
Speaker 9: on what Sutcliffe's actual blood type is like now and
Speaker 9: in being able to independently verify that. So Burrow tackles
Speaker 9: a lot of that. He doesn't naturally write a lot
Speaker 9: about the murders themselves, And my take on it was
Speaker 9: that I looked at them, I looked at o'garra's arguments,
Speaker 9: and I looked at the timeline of the murders, and
Speaker 9: the first murder, according to Ogira's website, would have been
Speaker 9: committed by Sutcliffe, and this would have involved mutilation. That's
Speaker 9: is why they call him the Yorkshire Ripper, just like
Speaker 9: Jack the Ripper, Rostov Ripper, Andrea Chikatilo whatever, they're those
Speaker 9: guys that like to mutilate. And so I noticed that this,
Speaker 9: this first murder had involved some mutilation, and so if
Speaker 9: the next one was committed by this guy William Tracy
Speaker 9: and also involved mutilation, to me, it seems more like
Speaker 9: Tracy was ripping off Sutcliffe. But then again I go, well,
Speaker 9: how did this is considering it's only the second murder.
Speaker 9: How did Tracy know about the mutilation and the specific
Speaker 9: like the specifics of the mutilation that you know, where
Speaker 9: it occurred, the manner in which it occurred in order
Speaker 9: to copy Sutcliffe. And so I became skeptical. And I
Speaker 9: would say, even though I haven't done anywhere near the
Speaker 9: depth of research that Nolo Geret has done into it,
Speaker 9: based just on that opposers I had as a criminologist,
Speaker 9: I concluded that probably maybe Peter Sillcliffe hadn't done all
Speaker 9: the murders, but I certainly didn't think that he was
Speaker 9: copying William Tracy. Uh And and I didn't see this
Speaker 9: proof that William Tracy had committed any of the murders. Now,
Speaker 9: this guy William Tracy claimed to have done it and
Speaker 9: bragged about it. But you know, we all know pathological liars,
Speaker 9: and we all know people that do false confessions. So
Speaker 9: but it is, Hey, it's still a very interesting argument
Speaker 9: and it's worth looking at, and Burl does a good
Speaker 9: job of it. One of the one of the things
Speaker 9: with that article that was the most challenging actually was
Speaker 9: is Burrell's tone is so as I think he used
Speaker 9: the word irreverent to use that word sure, sure you can't, okay,
Speaker 9: And yeah, and it's it's like, okay, well, we're writing
Speaker 9: about we're writing murders here, and this is uh, this
Speaker 9: is on Uh, this has got much more of a
Speaker 9: sense of humor and a lightness about it than most
Speaker 9: of the other articles that we've published. And then I
Speaker 9: so I had to go back and think about what
Speaker 9: really is the ethos of this brand of of you know,
Speaker 9: grinny Man Press, the publisher, and and what is this
Speaker 9: magazine about? And and and I came back to that
Speaker 9: tenant that I had that if it is a good article,
Speaker 9: I don't care in what voice it's written from or
Speaker 9: what moral standpoint it's written from. I'm going to publish
Speaker 9: it because I want to. I want the readers and
Speaker 9: and and myself and and everyone who reads our magazine
Speaker 9: to see these issues from various perspectives, and so Burl's
Speaker 9: article on Sutcliffe was was from a totally different perspective,
Speaker 9: and and I think the magazine becomes a lot more.
Speaker 9: I think the magazine benefits from that because you're not
Speaker 9: reading the same tone all the time. You know, things
Speaker 9: are broken up. It's like a radio station. You don't
Speaker 9: want to keep hearing songs in the key of G
Speaker 9: eight times in a row, right, You want to you
Speaker 9: want some variations. So I think ultimately it's a good
Speaker 9: idea to do that, and so that's what we do.
Speaker 9: I got a real weird one coming up written by
Speaker 9: Peter Vronsky for our next issue, where I was faced
Speaker 9: with a similar challenge, and I'm like, I'm going to
Speaker 9: publish it.
Speaker 8: Yeah, with with Burl, I don't, I don't really didn't
Speaker 8: read any controversial elements of it. But what I found
Speaker 8: is that very much like Burle, he likes to explore
Speaker 8: the underlying issues, even if they're and history based, in
Speaker 8: terms of the phenomenas that are underlying in that police
Speaker 8: would like to wrap up everything nice and neat and
Speaker 8: not have these loose other suspects. He also talks about
Speaker 8: the phenomena, just as you mentioned the pathological lying that's
Speaker 8: evident in serial killers. So how much is true and
Speaker 8: how much is self aggrandization, no one quite knows. And
Speaker 8: then just the phenomena of the media itself, which are
Speaker 8: again have their own motivation and sometimes that is synonymous
Speaker 8: with the prosecution and the police, and sometimes it isn't.
Speaker 8: So he I think he explores all that and puts
Speaker 8: and factors that all into the story as well. And
Speaker 8: like I say, Irreverend, it's just that's Burl Bears. Nobody
Speaker 8: else can have strike that balance between that sarcasm for
Speaker 8: those things I think which our need to be criticized.
Speaker 8: And that's why I laugh. And just really the strict
Speaker 8: academia that this guy puts into it, and it seems
Speaker 8: very effortless in his work.
Speaker 9: Yeah, and that's why as a great writer, then we're
Speaker 9: honored to have him on board. I can't wait for
Speaker 9: his next article. Yeah, it's and that's terrific. I mean
Speaker 9: when I write, I tend to look at things more
Speaker 9: of a from how can I convey the horror of
Speaker 9: the story combined with sort of like a criminological analysis
Speaker 9: of it. But as you said, Burrell is really looking
Speaker 9: at the aspects of media in it and and that's
Speaker 9: terrific there the more we look at these from different viewpoints,
Speaker 9: because it's it's about serial killers, but it doesn't need
Speaker 9: to be just through one lens. You know, there's many
Speaker 9: ways you could write the Peter Sutcliffe case, eight different ways,
Speaker 9: you know, from a different standpoints. So yeah, and I
Speaker 9: think all the all of our articles have a little
Speaker 9: bit of something different to them.
Speaker 8: Absolutely, and in keeping with that too, what you'd have
Speaker 8: is the a lot of people know this, but this
Speaker 8: is again even more information, more in depth is the
Speaker 8: Fred and Rosemary West. You call this article Garden of
Speaker 8: Bones by Kim Creswell.
Speaker 9: Uh.
Speaker 8: And another one I knew nothing about is Robert Knapper
Speaker 8: and you call this article a destroyer with Carol Anne Davis.
Speaker 8: And this is an aberrant police ethics leads to the
Speaker 8: prosecution of an innocent man for murder while the true
Speaker 8: killer of schizophrenic netro necro mutif mutiphile language. Yeah, there
Speaker 8: you go, a new word for me tonight this evening.
Speaker 8: Then you have just a top it all off. If
Speaker 8: that isn't another if you have a preview of the
Speaker 8: next issue, which is Fatal Fetishists and that and so
Speaker 8: then you do a preview about Jeffrey Dahmer in an
Speaker 8: article called The Tenant with with Hoshelski again penning that
Speaker 8: or doing that article. So we we also have That's
Speaker 8: just one of the issues. And the next one you
Speaker 8: have is in the spring edition. So we really can't
Speaker 8: go through all of this. But really this one's called
Speaker 8: Partners in Pain, And you mentioned this before. This is
Speaker 8: uh you have William Burke and William Hare Victorian serial Killers,
Speaker 8: great stuff. You have Dean Coral, Elmer, Henley David Brooks,
Speaker 8: The Game of Boys with doctor Catherine Ramslin again, and
Speaker 8: you had John Duffy and David Melkay Unique and Evil
Speaker 8: Bond with Carol Anne Davis. And you include stories on
Speaker 8: Leonard Lake, Charles Ing, Paul Bernard One, Karla Hamalka, Doug
Speaker 8: Clark and Carol Bundy, Helen Golay and Olga Rudis again
Speaker 8: another one another one for me. So you and so
Speaker 8: how many episodes? How many issues have you put out
Speaker 8: so far? And tell us a little bit about the
Speaker 8: latest issue.
Speaker 9: Okay, so I've put out five issues so far, uh
Speaker 9: and uh so all those all those cases we we
Speaker 9: we lifted in the British cases. I mean that's just
Speaker 9: one issue. So this is you know, literally the hundreds
Speaker 9: of pages of reading. So I think that what we
Speaker 9: charge for this for this e magazine is a really
Speaker 9: good deal. And I really encourage your listeners to go
Speaker 9: to our website Serialcular quarterly dot com and check it out.
Speaker 9: You can subscribe. I mean, we'll send it to your
Speaker 9: your email as there as they come out. Uh so,
Speaker 9: what what we got coming next? Okay, Well, Fatal Fetishists
Speaker 9: because Peter Vronsky got so passionately into his article on
Speaker 9: Richard Cottingham, which was supposed to be seven thousand words,
Speaker 9: he ended up giving me twelve thousand. Normally I'd say, whoa,
Speaker 9: this is you know too much, This has got to go.
Speaker 9: But it was an amazing article, and I decided I've
Speaker 9: got to keep it. At the same time, that was
Speaker 9: going to bloat the magazine to just a huge size
Speaker 9: and be rough on the graphic designers, rough on me
Speaker 9: as an editor, and we'd just be giving out way
Speaker 9: too much content compared to our other magazines. So Fatal
Speaker 9: Fetishists ended up getting split in two as a result
Speaker 9: of that. So our next two issues are Fatal Fetishist
Speaker 9: one and Fatal Fetishist two, and the theme of both
Speaker 9: of these issues are individuals serial killers that have specific
Speaker 9: paraphilias and or fetishes, and so each case represents a
Speaker 9: different one. For instance, I did an article on just
Speaker 9: a simple pedophile serial killer named Ronald Jebson. We've got
Speaker 9: one on Dayton Leroy Rogers who's a foot fetishist. And
Speaker 9: we've got we've got ones on Stephen Griffiths, a cannibal,
Speaker 9: Richard Cottingham, that was Peter's Oracle, a sexual sadist. So
Speaker 9: that's what we've got coming up. We're going to start
Speaker 9: exploring different fetishes and paraphilias in the next two issues.
Speaker 8: And what was the summer edition? What was the what
Speaker 8: were some of the articles in the summer edition?
Speaker 9: Oh, the summer edition, I believe that was our Unsolved
Speaker 9: in North America and that was that was one where
Speaker 9: we had the honor of having Harold Scheckter writ for us.
Speaker 9: He did the eighteen eighty five onsolved murders of servant
Speaker 9: girls in Austin, Texas, did a terrific job on it,
Speaker 9: and the cool thing about that is I had my
Speaker 9: friend and colleague Kenneth Mains, who works for the American
Speaker 9: in asalk I having drawn a blank on the acronym
Speaker 9: right now, sorry again, but we had him come in
Speaker 9: and he looked at that case and he looked at
Speaker 9: the Mad Butcher of Kingsbury run the article written by
Speaker 9: Michael Newton, and we included a sub article in there
Speaker 9: by Ken where he did criminal profiles on both of
Speaker 9: those cases based on the articles. So that was pretty cool.
Speaker 9: I wrote a lot of content for that one, and
Speaker 9: I did one on the Zodiac Killer, which is almost
Speaker 9: impossible to the seven thousand words just because the letters
Speaker 9: are so alone. So I kind of let the primary
Speaker 9: source materials tell themselves. The letters tell us a lot
Speaker 9: about that. And then in one instance, I actually pumped
Speaker 9: myself into the head of the Zodiac and wrote from
Speaker 9: his point of view during one of the murders. So,
Speaker 9: going back to that whole idea of writing from different perspectives,
Speaker 9: I wanted to really play with that in that particular
Speaker 9: article and to show who I thought he was in
Speaker 9: that moment during that murder. I also wrote an article
Speaker 9: for that one on a series of child murders in
Speaker 9: Montreal that remain unsolved, and that was actually that was
Speaker 9: actually an article I couldn't fit into my book Cold
Speaker 9: North Killers. I had to take it out, and so
Speaker 9: I just had it waiting in the wings, and I
Speaker 9: put it in there. And that's a really fascinating case.
Speaker 9: I mean, if you're a Canadian, you definitely want to
Speaker 9: look at that one, because recently there's been an announcement
Speaker 9: that originally I think that they believe there was about
Speaker 9: four or five victims, and now they're looking at the
Speaker 9: possibility that there may be as many as nine involved
Speaker 9: in that case. Kim Creswell wrote about the Long Island
Speaker 9: serial killer. I would say that's probably in the twenty
Speaker 9: first century, that's like the unsolved serial murder case. Would
Speaker 9: you agree with me there, Dan, that's the one that
Speaker 9: sort of everyone remembers and knows and in the twenty
Speaker 9: first century that they styled and figured out.
Speaker 8: I would say that's the one that's peaking people's interest.
Speaker 8: I think what's interesting is that even though serial killer
Speaker 8: stories dominate the bookshelves and in fiction dominate movies, they're
Speaker 8: almost a plot in almost everything. But I would think
Speaker 8: that just some of the developments, and some of the killers,
Speaker 8: the one off kind of killers, and the more the
Speaker 8: trend towards the three killers and the you know, the
Speaker 8: people that kill their entire family is just I think
Speaker 8: I think that there's less I don't know if there's interest,
Speaker 8: but there's less attention on serial killers just at this moment,
Speaker 8: uh and when. But we're going back and finding out
Speaker 8: in history about these notorious serial killers that time seems
Speaker 8: to have almost forgot. And then thanks to incredible magazines
Speaker 8: like yours, you're bringing these stories back to life. And
Speaker 8: these pay you know stories today pale in comparison to
Speaker 8: some of these you know, incredible true crime stories in history.
Speaker 9: Yeah, and thank you for that. And and as I said,
Speaker 9: we haven't always we're not trying to do the same
Speaker 9: old thing where like, hey, do you want to read
Speaker 9: about you know, John Wayne Gacy again, Like we'll get
Speaker 9: around to them. But you know, it's not like that
Speaker 9: we've made the magazine a priority where we're going to
Speaker 9: take those cases that you already know everything about and
Speaker 9: just respycle them. We scatter a few of those in there,
Speaker 9: and you know, that's just the part of good editing
Speaker 9: in my opinion. But you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 9: I like to think that we bring a lot of
Speaker 9: cases that people have never heard of into the forefront
Speaker 9: and it's like, hey, you take a look at this. Yeah,
Speaker 9: you didn't hear about them, but isn't this just as
Speaker 9: interesting really? I mean, if you're in this not for
Speaker 9: this additionalism, but because you really want to understand the
Speaker 9: mind of a murderer, victimology, criminology, if you want to
Speaker 9: find out about all the different permutations of this type
Speaker 9: of predator, maybe you should learn about some of the
Speaker 9: ones that haven't made international headlines. And so we're going
Speaker 9: to continue to do that with the magazine, although this
Speaker 9: year we are going to put in some of the
Speaker 9: more well known names. I felt like the year one
Speaker 9: was a bit of a tease, and now we've got
Speaker 9: to we've got to pay off a bit, almost like
Speaker 9: a story arc. But then we're still going to put
Speaker 9: in those fringe cases too.
Speaker 8: What I think is incredible is that the of course
Speaker 8: the stories that I had never read before, and being
Speaker 8: a guy that's pretty well read in this genre and
Speaker 8: still so that's to me, that's fascinating, and I think
Speaker 8: the audience is going to find that the reader is
Speaker 8: going to find the same thing. Wow, these are stories
Speaker 8: that I didn't know anything about and now I'm reading
Speaker 8: them and they're fascinating, incredibly shocking and yet in depth
Speaker 8: stories but just very very concise. It's amazing how much
Speaker 8: information these incredible authors pack into a short space, you know, basically.
Speaker 8: But I think that when you do do the cases
Speaker 8: like Rosemary Fred and Rosemary West, the author is adding
Speaker 8: something that is unique, either the perspective, the discussion, or
Speaker 8: something unique a unique aspect of the crime itself that
Speaker 8: is now explored in this magazine. So this is incredibly
Speaker 8: unique in terms of everything that you're reading is either surprising, shocking,
Speaker 8: or a brand new revelation for somebody, even as you know,
Speaker 8: I thought as experiences myself. So this is just a
Speaker 8: fantastic discovery for me, and I hope I'm sure the
Speaker 8: audience when they discover this will think the same. Lee.
Speaker 8: I want to thank you very much for this interview,
Speaker 8: and again let us know where people can contact you
Speaker 8: and tell us about your website again and if people
Speaker 8: want to contact you through Facebook or Twitter or whatever,
Speaker 8: let us know how they can do that.
Speaker 9: Great. Thank you so much. So you can subscribe to
Speaker 9: the magazine or buy single issues in PDF format at
Speaker 9: www dot serial Killer Quarterly dot com and we've got
Speaker 9: all our back issues on there. If you want to
Speaker 9: get an ebook form, it's available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble,
Speaker 9: D two D most of those online book retailers. Now
Speaker 9: there's a contest that we're doing that I really have
Speaker 9: got to get across. And you can find this on
Speaker 9: our Facebook page. Just search for serial Killer Quarterly. Essentially,
Speaker 9: when you get to the serial Killer Quarterly page, the
Speaker 9: contest is pinned on the top, and this is what
Speaker 9: it is. This is a tremendous deal. So if you win,
Speaker 9: if you enter this contest and win, you will win. Okay,
Speaker 9: ready for this. You're going to get signed copies of
Speaker 9: body Count by a Burl Bearer, assigned copy of my
Speaker 9: book Rampage, assigned copy of Doctors Who Kills, Sadistic Killers
Speaker 9: and Youthful Prey by Carol Anne Davis, Assigned hardcover copy
Speaker 9: of Harold Checkter's novel on HH Holmes. You're going to
Speaker 9: get assigned copy of karenco see is fiction novel Kidnapped
Speaker 9: by the Cartel. You're going to get a grinny Man
Speaker 9: Press T shirt, and you're going to get a copy
Speaker 9: of Kevin M. Sullivan's new ebook on Richard Chase. So
Speaker 9: this is definitely a contest that you want to enter.
Speaker 8: Yeah, absolutely, thank you very much for mentioning that. I'm
Speaker 8: drooling already. I want to enter this thing myself. So yeah,
Speaker 8: it's great.
Speaker 9: So yeah, all you have to do to get to
Speaker 9: that is go to the Serial Killer quarterly page on
Speaker 9: Facebook and you'll see the post pinned on there. It'll
Speaker 9: tell you what you need to do to enter this contest,
Speaker 9: and if you win, that's one hell of a prize
Speaker 9: package in my opinion.
Speaker 8: Right, I want to ask just maybe one last question,
Speaker 8: why do you think that all these authors have lined
Speaker 8: up to be a part of this excellent magazine, this
Speaker 8: online magazine.
Speaker 9: Because they like it as much as you do.
Speaker 4: What I was.
Speaker 8: What I was alluding to, is that based on the
Speaker 8: work that you have done, you know, you're a meticulous researcher,
Speaker 8: very exhaustive in your research, and you are the author
Speaker 8: of Cold North Killers and Rampage. We're going to have
Speaker 8: you back real soon to talk about Rampage. Because I
Speaker 8: couldn't help myself. I have to dig in and start
Speaker 8: reading and some incredible stories, and it's what's really interesting,
Speaker 8: and so I think it's very flattering, is that a
Speaker 8: Canadian in America attracting all these basically American well, I
Speaker 8: mean there are some Canadians, but basically the elite of
Speaker 8: American true crime is on board with your Serial Killer Quarterly.
Speaker 8: And it must be based on the respect that they
Speaker 8: have for you as a criminologist and author and now
Speaker 8: as a publisher.
Speaker 7: So I want to.
Speaker 8: Applaud you for this and thank thank you very much
Speaker 8: for coming on and talking about this, and I want
Speaker 8: to congratulate you on Serial Killer Quarterly. And I want
Speaker 8: you to thank you very much and have a great evening.
Speaker 9: Hey, thanks so much, Dan, And uh yeah, let's let's
Speaker 9: do a rampage one. Eh.
Speaker 8: Absolutely, we'll talk to you in the near future.
Speaker 7: Thank you.
Speaker 9: Okay, have a good night, my friend.
Speaker 8: Good night.
Speaker 7: Good night,