WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:01.120 Hey guys, it's Jack. 2 00:00:01.199 --> 00:00:03.240 I just wanted to talk to you today about a 3 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:05.919 way that you can help support the podcast if you're 4 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:09.519 not already to support the channel is to become a 5 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:13.000 Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at 6 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:15.919 just five dollars a month, and when you sign up, 7 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:19.160 you get access to all of our episodes add free. 8 00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:21.679 That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also 9 00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:26.239 do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers, but this 10 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:28.960 is the biggest and best way that you can support 11 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:33.679 the Teamhouse channel and podcast if you'd like to, and 12 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:36.200 we really appreciate that, So go and check us out 13 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:45.280 at patreon dot com. Slash the Teamhouse, Special Operations. 14 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:55.320 Cobert ops Asbiona the Team House with your host, Jack 15 00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:57.840 Murphy and David bark. 16 00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:05.920 Hey, everyone, Welcome to a Monday edition of the Team House. 17 00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:08.439 This is episode three hundred and five. I'm Jack here 18 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:11.439 with Dave and our guest on tonight's show. Returning to 19 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:14.760 this show is David McCloskey. He is the author of 20 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:18.519 the Seventh Floor. His previous novels were Damascus Station and 21 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:22.840 Moscow X. We had him on here talking about Moscow 22 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:27.000 X in his career as a CIA intelligence analyst on 23 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:29.159 a previous episode, You guys should really go and check 24 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:32.920 it out. This is a counterintelligence novel about the CIA. 25 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:36.040 Are really excited to talk about. I read this a 26 00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:39.239 couple of weeks ago. Really good book. First, we got 27 00:01:39.239 --> 00:01:40.719 a word from our sponsors though. 28 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:44.159 Thanks for our sponsor tonight, ghost Bed. 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Or reach out to their friendly team 50 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:53.680 of sleep experts for all the help you need. Even better, 51 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:56.960 Team House listeners can get up to fifty percent off 52 00:02:57.159 --> 00:02:59.840 site wide, not up to fifty percent off sitewide for 53 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:03.280 limited time. Just visit ghostped dot com slash house and 54 00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:06.520 use code house at checkout. Again, that's ghost sped dot 55 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:10.159 com house with code house at checkout to save a 56 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:14.919 wopping fifty off site wide, check out ghostbed for sure. 57 00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:20.159 So David, welcome back to the show Man and congratulations 58 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:21.240 on the new book. 59 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:24.719 Thanks guys, thanks for having me on and uh Man 60 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:25.759 really excited to be back. 61 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:29.360 So the seventh Floor, tell us a little bit about 62 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:32.639 how this idea for book three germinated in the back 63 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:35.120 of your mind and how it kind of came to fruition. 64 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:37.120 Yeah, so this one. 65 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:40.360 You know, readers of the other two books will recognize 66 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:43.840 that there are a few characters who come back. Artemis Proctor, 67 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:46.159 who's been in both of the first two books, and 68 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:48.400 then a guy named Sam Joseph who was a CIA 69 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:50.639 case officer who was in the first one to Basket Station. 70 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:55.800 And you know, as I've written the books, I've gotten 71 00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:59.240 more and more just enthralled with the Procter character. I 72 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:04.479 got this, I love writing her, and I really appreciate that. 73 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:07.639 And I really wanted to write a story that was 74 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:15.159 very Langley focused, like just deep at CIA Langley culture, 75 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.240 both headquarters and of course the field, and to kind 76 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:21.879 of watch a group of case officers grow up. And 77 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:27.120 you know, for that kind of story, I thought a 78 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:30.560 really interesting lens to throw on it would be, you 79 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:33.160 know what if one of them is actually working for 80 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:36.879 the opposition, right, And so this idea of this kind 81 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:40.399 of classic mole hunt story, which is, you know, I 82 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:42.800 think maybe has some Cold War vibes to it, but maybe, 83 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:46.759 as we'll talk about, is like actually a very present danger, right, 84 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:50.720 I mean, it's a very modern problem. 85 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:54.000 I thought, okay, well, let's just let's do a bit 86 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:56.399 of like an espionage. Who done it right? 87 00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:00.000 So the premise of the book is essentially that they're 88 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.199 there's one of Proctor's friends is working for the Russians. 89 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:05.759 Who is it right? And the rest of the book 90 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:08.600 is an effort for her and her friend Sam to 91 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:12.519 figure out who that is. And so, you know, as 92 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:14.120 I kind of toyed around with that, it felt like 93 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.759 a really good way to deal with, you know, the CIA, 94 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:21.000 but also just to kind of deal with Proctor and 95 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:23.920 her past and who her friends are. Right, So I 96 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:25.439 fell in love with it that way. 97 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:28.319 And to kind of like set up like the premise 98 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:30.920 of the book a little bit. It's mainly about what 99 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:36.079 four or five senior CIA officers who, as you say, 100 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:38.199 they grew up, they went to the farm together. They 101 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:41.519 were part of the same cohort, the same generation and 102 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:44.160 coming up through the whole War on Terror, and they 103 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:46.959 have this background in the War on Terror in Afghanistan 104 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:51.480 and some bad blood about you know, twenty years later 105 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:54.079 that kind of rears its ugly head. 106 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:56.839 Yeah, no exactly. 107 00:05:56.920 --> 00:05:58.800 I mean, you know, I think as I wrote, I 108 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.279 was like, all right, well, there's got to be a 109 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:05.839 shortlist of suspects, okay, in any mole Hunt story from 110 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:10.480 you know, Tinker Taylor onward right, you have a list 111 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:12.399 that you start with the sort of scope of the world, 112 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.800 and for me, it felt more impactful, more interesting if 113 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:20.600 that group of people were very very close to Procter 114 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:23.120 kind of our mole hunter in this story. And so 115 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:26.240 I had to come up with or sort of find 116 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:29.600 this world of friends who went all the way back 117 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:34.439 to the very beginning together and who had, at points 118 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:36.920 throughout the story or throughout this kind of twenty five 119 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:41.959 year arc, had been very close and as you see 120 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:44.160 in the book, like some of them are you know, 121 00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:47.439 Proctor hates some of them now they're very like dear 122 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:48.399 enemies to her. 123 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:50.639 Others are still very close. 124 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:56.199 And you know, I think it's an interesting question and 125 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:58.839 one that the book. I didn't start the book thinking 126 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:01.759 it would become this kind of story, but I really 127 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:06.120 wanted to as it went on, kind of just look 128 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:08.279 at what happens to a group of friends over time. 129 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.920 And frankly, and I think this is kind of evergreen 130 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:14.720 for anybody. It's like, how much do you really know 131 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:15.519 about your friends? 132 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:16.040 You know? 133 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:22.360 Which has some elements of domestic suspense, I guess you 134 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:25.240 could say, which there's something deep inside us that I 135 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:26.879 think we look at like you look at your husband, 136 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:28.199 you look at your wife, you look at your neighbor, 137 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.720 and you're like, I have a mental image of who 138 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:33.319 they are. I know a lot of things about them, 139 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:35.879 but do I really know them? 140 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:36.480 Right? 141 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:41.480 And for betrayal for somebody who is actually working for 142 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:45.040 the opposition over a long period of time. You know, 143 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:47.720 there's some pretty deep stuff there, which I thought was really, 144 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:51.319 you know, interesting to explore this from a character standpoint. 145 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:54.600 It was it was really interesting how you kind of 146 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:58.839 delved into all of their backgrounds and their personality quirks 147 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:01.879 like this one doesn't drink anymore, this one drinks a lot. 148 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:04.560 This guy's into saltwater fish. 149 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:06.439 They have these a lot of research for that, by 150 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:07.199 the way, Yeah. 151 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:08.120 Et cetera. Cobbies. 152 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:10.600 I hope you tapped into Jack for that one. 153 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:13.000 Is I we have we have a saltwater fish tank 154 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:19.040 here in the in the office. But that and then, 155 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:22.120 as you slowly reveal throughout the course of the novel, 156 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:25.360 what was this incident in Afghanistan that kind of like 157 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:29.079 bound them together in a sense, you know, and led 158 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:31.279 to some of the you know, it's a lot of 159 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:34.960 complex feelings honestly, the complex emotions that they have about 160 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:37.360 their own past and their relationships. 161 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:38.240 Yeah. 162 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:42.679 Yeah, well, you know again, like I don't know, the 163 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:45.240 way I write is it's not very linear. I didn't 164 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:47.159 have any of this sketch out before I started writing, 165 00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:47.759 and just sort of. 166 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:48.919 Came as I went along. 167 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:55.600 But it felt like, even though I will admit that 168 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:59.360 I'm breaking some rules of real trade craft in that scene, 169 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:02.720 which Jack, as he's smiling here, will probably you know, 170 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:06.039 probably noticed as he was reading, like, I felt it 171 00:09:06.120 --> 00:09:09.759 was very important that I put all of them together 172 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.639 at some point in the book in a scene or 173 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:18.840 a moment of intense sort of personal consequence, right, and 174 00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:24.960 where there's real physical danger, and you know, I don't 175 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:28.559 want to spoil anything, but the essence of that scene 176 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:31.720 is one that I think to me as I was 177 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:36.039 writing it, it has both these elements of really high human 178 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:40.720 sort of like there's valor, there's bravery, there's self sacrifice, 179 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:45.159 and yet at the same time, you know, you sort 180 00:09:45.159 --> 00:09:48.000 of know as all of these people are together that 181 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:51.200 one of them later on he is going to betray 182 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:57.720 those very ideals and sell out for you know, money, 183 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:02.799 some sense of self importance, to the other side. And 184 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:05.840 I don't know if that's a dark view of human nature. 185 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:11.200 I think it's a realistic one. And I thought it 186 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:13.879 wasn't possible to portray kind of the lows of the 187 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:16.080 betrayal without the highs of that scene and sort of 188 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:20.080 elements of like true friendship that emerge. 189 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:23.600 I was just gonna ask, how how did you approach that? 190 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:25.559 Because it's I. 191 00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:29.840 Think that we want to paint villains as villainous in 192 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:33.799 all of their behaviors and all of their traits. 193 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:34.440 Right. 194 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:37.840 We don't want the guy who gives a ton of 195 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:41.440 to charity or or volunteers time to also be a 196 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:44.679 domestic abuser, right, Like like we want everything to fit 197 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:49.159 into boxes when we look at these people. But people 198 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:52.279 are far more complicated than that. So like, how how 199 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:54.360 did you manage that when you were when you were 200 00:10:54.360 --> 00:10:56.559 fleshing us out? 201 00:10:57.720 --> 00:10:57.919 Man? 202 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:01.279 Well, you know, it's interesting because I I also fall 203 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:08.120 prey to that impulse, and yet, like I can't think 204 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:11.519 of any of I mean, I can't think of anyone 205 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:13.480 I've known in my life who I feel like has 206 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:17.919 done objectively horrible things to me or to others who 207 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:21.679 I know are love who also hasn't had some other 208 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:25.399 side to them that is, you know, sort of humane 209 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:26.960 or generous or. 210 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:30.559 You know, like And so I think it's. 211 00:11:32.919 --> 00:11:36.240 I feel like it's a matter of just being authentic 212 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:39.960 to human human nature, you know that. I mean, there 213 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:42.279 are there are villains, I mean, and I'm certainly not 214 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:45.919 trying to like be morally you know, I mean, there's 215 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:47.759 a moral ambivalence to this, but I'm not trying to 216 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:51.240 like equate like the guy who betrays Cia and all 217 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:54.320 of his friends is the is the or girl is 218 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:55.240 the bad guy in this. 219 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:56.840 Book, right, right? Right? 220 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:00.159 And yet and yet at the same time, it's like, 221 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:04.120 you know, I just think there's a ton of complexity 222 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:08.639 in all of us and the capacity to do horrible 223 00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:11.639 things and great things, like within the span of a 224 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:12.360 couple hours. 225 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:15.720 And it just, you know. 226 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:19.399 That feels more realistic to human nature than than a 227 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:24.039 cartoon to me. And I don't you know, I'm not 228 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:27.159 trying to write cartoons. As much fun as they can be, 229 00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:30.440 as entertaining as they can be, it just doesn't track 230 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:34.080 with my reality of you know, human human existence. 231 00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:34.679 Right. 232 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:39.480 So let's let's talk a little bit about the intelligence 233 00:12:39.559 --> 00:12:43.559 counterintelligence game. And I mean that that that provides a 234 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:48.480 lot of like complex, a lot of complex subjects to 235 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:53.480 explore in the novel. But I mean it has a 236 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:56.679 very real analog. I mean, the CIA has experienced these 237 00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:01.679 things with Ouldra games and others, and you explore this 238 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:04.279 idea that you know, this could happen again. Maybe it 239 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:07.360 is happening now, right. That's that's always the fear of 240 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:10.960 a counterintelligence officer is like what am I missing? Like 241 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:12.120 is it here right now? 242 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:15.919 I mean, yeah, this is you know, it is interesting. 243 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:19.120 Like a lot of the a lot of the sources 244 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:21.679 on this are really like. 245 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:24.840 Cold War late Cold War, you know era. 246 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:26.600 I mean, you have this kind of classic year the 247 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:29.399 Spy nineteen eighty five. You've got a number of CIA 248 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:34.200 officers who are recruited around then by the KGB. You know, 249 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:36.840 you've got Bob Ames at the FBI, like it kind 250 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:39.919 of has you go back further into Britain. You've got 251 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:42.080 Phil b You've got all these big Cold War cases 252 00:13:42.200 --> 00:13:45.320 the CIA ran in Moscow, and it kind of has 253 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:49.759 this vibe of like this stuff doesn't happen anymore, right, right, 254 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:54.039 And the reality it's just not It's just not true, 255 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:56.919 you know. I mean, within the last few years, we've 256 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:03.960 had kind of intelligence arrests, you know, in the States, China, Cuba, 257 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:06.440 and so you can kind of go through this list 258 00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:11.120 and like you realize that at any point in time, 259 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:17.519 given how massive are intelligence bureaucracy is, I mean, it 260 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:21.320 is like so that in my book, right having a 261 00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:25.279 very highly placed asset in the upper reaches of CIA, 262 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:29.159 my guess is that's not going on right now, But 263 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:33.320 having people inside the organization or with access to the 264 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:36.679 organization's information who are passing stuff to the Russians or 265 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:41.000 to the Chinese or to the Iranians, like that's happening 266 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:44.600 all the time, you know, And I think based on 267 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:47.480 the sort of arrest tempo and the FBI sort of 268 00:14:47.559 --> 00:14:49.600 case temple, you'd have to assume this stuff is going 269 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:50.279 on constantly. 270 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.519 And these foreign intelligence services are sure as ship trying 271 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:56.200 to penetrate everyone's trying. 272 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:00.240 Yeah, exactly exactly, I mean we are they are the 273 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:03.799 best way to sort of get an advantage is to 274 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:06.200 just go straight for where the information is, right, So 275 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:08.360 go to the go to the intelligence service that is 276 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:12.360 collecting on you, and try to try to turn somebody. 277 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:13.879 Okay, So it makes a ton. 278 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:14.440 Of sense here. 279 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:17.720 Here's the flip side with this whole counterintelligence game that 280 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:21.679 you know many others have written prolifically about, is James 281 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:26.879 heyeseus Angleton. You descend he occupied the counterintelligence office for 282 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:31.240 like over a decade at CIA and descended into total 283 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:35.960 paranoia and thought that every thought that every source was 284 00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:40.120 a dangle that thought that every cable, you know, every 285 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:44.279 intercept by technical means, was some sort of disinformation. It 286 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:47.080 was some sort of like triple game that the Soviets 287 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:51.559 were playing. And I've talked to people about this who say, like, 288 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:55.000 when you put people in that CI role, you can't 289 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:57.759 leave them there more than like three years, four years, 290 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:01.919 because that paranoia is starts to seep into anybody. It 291 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:04.720 turns into this thing of like, well maybe they weren't 292 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:07.679 turned when they were when the source was recruited, but 293 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:11.039 maybe they got turned a year later, and or or 294 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:14.200 maybe it's a triple game. I mean, you don't it 295 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:17.960 just sounds like it's a rafe really to try to navigate. 296 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:23.200 Well, honestly, it was one of the one of the 297 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.399 interesting things about researching the book was because I wasn't 298 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:29.480 a counterintelligence officer at CIA, right, I was a Syria 299 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:33.720 analyst and it's a very different, very different game to 300 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:37.440 analyze these types of threats. But in just doing the 301 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:40.480 research on it for the book, like, it makes a 302 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:41.919 ton of sense to me why you would go a 303 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:46.360 little bit nuts, because you end up with the goal, 304 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:48.840 as I understand it is basically okay, if you think, 305 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.159 if you think there is some kind of leak coming 306 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:55.759 out of Russia house right, you were building a giant 307 00:16:55.840 --> 00:17:00.720 matrix essentially reporting matrix of anomalies and compairing them to 308 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:04.599 one another over time and depending on who's saying what 309 00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:08.319 and what's the actual sort of like, so you get 310 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:12.519 into this world of you know, you actually don't have 311 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:15.480 four or five sources on a thing to check it 312 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:19.839 against itself. You have a couple of things that contradict 313 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:24.119 each other and no way to verify initially whether either 314 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:25.160 of those things. 315 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:26.160 Is true or not. 316 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:30.440 And so you end up you can very you know, 317 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:33.000 easily end up. And I think the Angleton quote or 318 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:35.759 someone mentioned this about him, is like you end up 319 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:38.839 in this wilderness of mirrors where there's nothing to really 320 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:44.079 hold on to, right right, and it's a fundamentally. 321 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:48.599 Slow moving slog to do. 322 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:50.920 These kind of investigations, and so I can totally I 323 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:55.559 can totally see how over not a not long period 324 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:59.079 of time, somebody would be totally gassed doing it right. 325 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:04.000 It's very tedious and demanding work, and it's not sexy 326 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:04.319 at all. 327 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:06.799 There's a line, there's a line in your book, a 328 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:10.400 specific quote that I have heard people. People have told 329 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:12.640 me this in the past, and the quote is we 330 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:17.279 have a problem, and we have That's a that's a 331 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:20.599 very open ended statement, but very profound when when a 332 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:23.720 counterintelligence officer comes to the you know, the the director 333 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:27.960 of Central Intelligence and says, we have a problem. But okay, 334 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:30.119 what is that problem? You know how we have put 335 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:30.799 our finger on. 336 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:37.319 That that that line, if I'm remembering, I'm pretty sure 337 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:41.960 I pulled that directly from the main anemmy, which is 338 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:46.119 a great yeah, Milt Bearden book, James Risen book about 339 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:48.519 Here the Spy and kind of the tail end of 340 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:51.400 the Cult War, and it's that book covers a lot 341 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:55.880 of things, but one of them is this, you know intent, 342 00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:01.279 like this this realization inside what was then sort of 343 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.000 the I think it was called CE Division at the time, right, 344 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:06.200 it was even before it was before the Russia House 345 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:08.359 book and movies, so they didn't call it Russia House. 346 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:11.160 At the time, they knew that there. 347 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:14.359 Was something very wrong because so many of their assets 348 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:17.960 had gone cold, or they knew they were ruled up, 349 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:22.839 but they didn't they didn't know why, you know. And 350 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:25.119 that's the other piece of the counterintelligence game that was 351 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:29.599 very fascinating to me, was like, it's very It's it's 352 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:33.119 one thing to say you have a problem to specifically 353 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:37.440 identify if the source of the leak is actually. 354 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:39.359 Very challenging. 355 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:44.119 And most espionage novels that deal with the mole hunt, 356 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:48.160 I think, treat that as a relatively simple thing to 357 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:51.680 figure out, and it's actually really, really, really hard. And 358 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:54.559 our legal regime in the States, the Espionage Act, and 359 00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:56.119 they need to prove intent and all this kind of 360 00:19:56.119 --> 00:19:57.839 stuff makes it even harder. 361 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:00.079 Well, and not only that, but just the more or 362 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:04.759 obligation of the CI investigator, because the moment you shine 363 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:09.400 a spotlight on somebody just just as out of curiosity 364 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:13.960 or just to like clarified discrepancies or whatever else, you 365 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:15.039 could ruin their life. 366 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:21.279 Right yeah, right, I mean, and I'm now, oh man, 367 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:23.160 I forget his name, but there was there was a 368 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:29.559 CIA officer during the Hanson investigation. 369 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:31.279 The dude who was read onto all the Russia house 370 00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:33.319 stuff but never deployed because he was an. 371 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:39.440 Algatholic, and he he was just completely dogged by the 372 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:44.640 FBI for years and basically had his career ruined. And 373 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:47.599 it turns out his bomb Hanson. You know, so this 374 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:51.559 this guy like had his life wrecked by the Bureau 375 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:54.279 and he didn't he hadn't done anything wrong. 376 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.519 You know, as you're talking about this, the line from 377 00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:01.920 Milt's book, it comes from Aims started showing up at 378 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:06.000 the office. Weren't expensive suits that he could never afford, 379 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:09.079 and then he goes into Milt's office and demands to 380 00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:14.880 be put on Russia cases and then storms back out 381 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:17.200 and they look at each other, like like Milton one 382 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:19.759 of his colleagues, And I think that's where the line is. 383 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:20.680 We have a problem. 384 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:23.119 We have a problem, Yeah, that guy. 385 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:25.519 I mean, you know, as a total side note, one 386 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:28.920 of the when I came in, we had we had 387 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:31.960 to do these financial disclosure forms like every you know, 388 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:36.720 twelve to twenty four months or something like that, and 389 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:39.079 it was it was all because of Ams, you know, 390 00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:41.440 because he all of a sudden, I think he bought 391 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:43.359 a Jaguar if I'm not mistaken, Like there were a 392 00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:48.480 bunch of conspicuous consumption, like random purchases he made with 393 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:51.799 the Russian money that you know, like were inexplicable on 394 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:58.000 his GS thirteen or twelve salary or whatever it was. Yeah, 395 00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:01.960 and you know, the it's a little bit. I think 396 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:06.599 the mole hunting in some ways is a little bit 397 00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:09.839 like like TSA searches, where you're always looking for like 398 00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:14.079 the last thing, you know, and it's just very hard. 399 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:16.160 I think it's just it's very hard to track these 400 00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:19.480 people down in real time if they're in especially if 401 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:23.000