1 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and thank you for joining us again on 2 00:00:18,559 --> 00:00:22,800 the Seafood Matters podcast. In order to help her podcast series, 3 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,280 please press subscribe and share it with family and friends. 4 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,399 In this episode, I'm delighted to welcome Sarah Coulthard, a 5 00:00:30,519 --> 00:00:35,719 senior lecturer in marine social science at Newcastle University, who 6 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,759 joins us to chat about the effects of the suggested 7 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:45,079 ban and bottom trawlley proposed by Sir David Artenborough in 8 00:00:45,119 --> 00:00:50,280 his latest film Ocean. Hi Sarah, and welcome to Seafood Matters. 9 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,399 Speaker 2: Hi Jim, Thank YOUIM delighted to pay here. 10 00:00:54,039 --> 00:00:59,159 Speaker 1: Thank you. If we start with the obvious on the film, 11 00:00:59,399 --> 00:01:02,799 what was your gut reaction when you saw the atenb 12 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,120 a piece calling for a full barn on bottom trolling. 13 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,239 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I went to see the film about a 14 00:01:09,239 --> 00:01:11,519 week ago. I took my eleven year old daughter and 15 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,120 nine year old Meat and we went together to theater. 16 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,200 And I think first of all to say that the 17 00:01:17,239 --> 00:01:21,120 documentary as a whole is just a stunning piece of cinematography. 18 00:01:21,599 --> 00:01:25,599 Is absolutely struck and in all by the incredibly beautiful 19 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,840 portrayal of ocean life. And I also have to say 20 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,959 I've never seen the cinema in my hometown, so full 21 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,159 it was absolutely packed, which is quite an experience. But 22 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,519 my good reaction on the trawling piece, I think first 23 00:01:40,519 --> 00:01:45,480 and foremost, I felt real empathy for fishermen, especially taller fishermen, 24 00:01:45,599 --> 00:01:48,640 but indeed all fishermen, as the narrative of the film 25 00:01:48,719 --> 00:01:53,719 was rather indiscriminate at times, frequently conflating trawling damage and 26 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:58,719 fishing damage more generally. David Attenbury is a national treasure. 27 00:01:58,879 --> 00:02:01,400 We've all grown up with him in the background, and 28 00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:03,879 I think it could have hurt fishermen to see their 29 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,039 livelihoods being portrayed in this way. You know, fishermen are 30 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,840 an important part of ocean life and it was a shame, 31 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,000 I think, to have isolated them from the story, to 32 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,120 only appear as part of the problem rather than part 33 00:02:17,159 --> 00:02:21,080 of this solution. So that was my first gut reaction. 34 00:02:21,159 --> 00:02:23,560 But I must say my other gut reaction was the 35 00:02:23,599 --> 00:02:25,879 amount of waste that drawling produces, and I think this 36 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,800 is very hard to watch. My daughter actually walked out 37 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,719 at this point because you found it really upsetting, and 38 00:02:31,759 --> 00:02:34,360 I think everyone must agree that it is a serious 39 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,240 problem to be tackled. I had a conversation recently with 40 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,240 a former taller fishermen who described how we used to 41 00:02:41,319 --> 00:02:45,080 run around the deck trying to save bycatch growing critically 42 00:02:45,199 --> 00:02:48,560 endangered flapper scapes and other species overboard before they died. 43 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,840 And this description from him is really stuck with me. 44 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,319 We are a nation of people, I think, who generally 45 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,400 do not like to see waste, and of course waste 46 00:02:58,479 --> 00:03:01,879 is a problem throughout all food production, not just trawling, 47 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,599 and that's important to recognize, but that doesn't mean that 48 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:06,719 we just assume it away as being too hard a 49 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,439 challenge to address. I think you might remember u F 50 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:14,039 only whitting stools TV programs War on Waste resulted inners 51 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:18,039 now seeing wonky carrots and imperfect apples available to buy 52 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,400 in some markets, which is progress. So I think reducing 53 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,280 waste to cross all food production systems is hugely important 54 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,919 and more needs to be done with that regard acknowledging, 55 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:30,879 of course, that there is a lot of work being 56 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,919 done to reduce by catching, trawling and to reduce the 57 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,560 damage to the seabed, it was a shame that the 58 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,639 film couldn't showcase some of those efforts as well, which 59 00:03:39,639 --> 00:03:43,159 are often done in partner with fish men and for it. 60 00:03:43,199 --> 00:03:46,560 For example, in Northumberland where I live, our local inshore 61 00:03:46,639 --> 00:03:50,599 fisheries and conservation authority are IFKA is working really closely 62 00:03:50,639 --> 00:03:53,080 with the skipper of a small scale pawn toiling vessel 63 00:03:53,479 --> 00:03:56,080 to trial modifications to his fishing gears so that it's 64 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:01,240 reduced contact with the seabed. Similarly, the Scottish quel Fishermen's 65 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,599 Federation is leading initiatives in Scotland to reduce entanglement of 66 00:04:04,599 --> 00:04:07,879 whales in Creole rope. They trained fishermen how to untangle 67 00:04:07,879 --> 00:04:11,400 the whales safely and they're adopting heavier ropes to reduce 68 00:04:11,439 --> 00:04:14,560 its occurrence. And I think these are really positive stories 69 00:04:14,599 --> 00:04:18,319 showing the importance of reducing the environmental impacts of fishing 70 00:04:18,959 --> 00:04:23,879 in partnership with fishermen. I was also a little bit 71 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,639 surprised about the singling out of trawling several times in 72 00:04:27,639 --> 00:04:31,120 the film where the food security was being highlighted, and 73 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,680 it was really important that this was covered in the film. 74 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,360 We saw footage of fishermen in West Africa, I think, 75 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,319 pulling in a beach sine and this is a really 76 00:04:39,319 --> 00:04:42,480 important story to tell where small scale fishermen are hugely 77 00:04:42,519 --> 00:04:46,639 undermined and threatened by industrial nomadic trawlers from other countries 78 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,839 who have often overfished their own waters. However, in many 79 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,079 parts of Africa, and I've done research on this, in Kenya, 80 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,279 the beach sane as a gear is completely banned because 81 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,360 it lands small juvenile fish and has been argued with 82 00:04:59,439 --> 00:05:03,160 a large bat looking from environmental engeos to be unsustainable 83 00:05:03,399 --> 00:05:07,160 and in places environmentally damaging. So with my research of 84 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,079 the years has shown that the sailing band has serious 85 00:05:10,079 --> 00:05:14,560 implications and food security in coastal regions in parts of 86 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,319 eastern Africa, and this detail, this nuance was lacking in 87 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,399 the film. But I think it is the case that 88 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,399 blanket bands, of types of gears, and I've really seen 89 00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:27,959 this in Kenya Fair's time firsthand, Sorry, can really cause 90 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,639 harm to coastal communities, and there needs to be great 91 00:05:30,639 --> 00:05:35,879 a reflection about that. 92 00:05:35,879 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: That's okay, No, that's good, that's good. I just feel 93 00:05:40,639 --> 00:05:47,759 that times minimum sizes increase to conservative stalks. I think 94 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:52,800 it's just it's a market. It's almost like its market driven, 95 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,879 it's market laid, and that just increases by catch increases 96 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,120 a problem. You know, I've filleted quite a bit of 97 00:06:02,199 --> 00:06:07,360 fish in recent times when I'm visiting the pier when 98 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:12,839 boats are landing, and I'll be the skipper. I'll just say, look, 99 00:06:12,959 --> 00:06:18,079 help yourself. And then they'll be helping myself and they'll say, no, no, 100 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:23,439 don't take that. Here took some better fish, and this 101 00:06:23,519 --> 00:06:27,360 is fine for me. Now just say, for example, a haddock. 102 00:06:28,319 --> 00:06:32,639 I take a haddache and I'll look at it filleted 103 00:06:33,399 --> 00:06:36,319 when I'm home, and this is for my own interests, 104 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,959 and I'll look at the size. Now, we had a 105 00:06:38,959 --> 00:06:42,480 fish shop part of our business going back in the 106 00:06:42,519 --> 00:06:46,720 as far as the seventies and eighties, and the size 107 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:51,680 and the quality for fishmongers you could almost say was primo, 108 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,959 no prime quality, prime size, and that would be the 109 00:06:55,959 --> 00:07:00,240 price on the market. And the fish I've got with me. 110 00:07:00,759 --> 00:07:03,639 Just say, for example, in old money, it would be 111 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,360 ground about a four ounce filet. Now the four ounce 112 00:07:06,399 --> 00:07:09,600 fulet would give a house waife maybe four filets to 113 00:07:09,839 --> 00:07:13,199 the pound, so she'd be buying her pounder fish for 114 00:07:13,319 --> 00:07:17,519 her family. Should have four filets. That fish I've been 115 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,560 getting is between anything between four and a half to 116 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,600 five and a half ounces, so it's in houradays that 117 00:07:26,639 --> 00:07:30,800 would have gone into the fishmonger, and do you know 118 00:07:30,839 --> 00:07:34,759 where I got it from the Bait by catch bait 119 00:07:35,199 --> 00:07:39,519 for sklfish, carb and lobster, because there's no market for 120 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:40,399 it any longer. 121 00:07:40,959 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's I think you're right. I think 122 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,839 it's it's really interesting talking to the public about their 123 00:07:46,879 --> 00:07:49,000 perceptions of the film. I was just in the Whitby 124 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,079 Fish and Chips Festival last weekend and it was quite 125 00:07:51,079 --> 00:07:53,360 a lot of comment people who had seen a film 126 00:07:53,399 --> 00:07:57,600 and those who hadn't about are concerned about waste and 127 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,560 just yeah, what to do about it? And I think 128 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,000 trying to work with markets to make them more effective 129 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,000 so that the waste is reduced would be a good thing. 130 00:08:05,399 --> 00:08:08,279 Obviously that's a very complex thing to do. Youn't manage 131 00:08:08,319 --> 00:08:11,240 to do it? Yeah, Yeah, certainly more could be done 132 00:08:11,279 --> 00:08:14,519 abound that, but I think one of the biggest messages 133 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,160 from the movie was to try and resolve that. In 134 00:08:17,199 --> 00:08:21,000 Simay kind of gasps around them the cinema when that 135 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,639 part came on. I think we're telling to that as well. 136 00:08:24,399 --> 00:08:27,319 Speaker 1: I just felt with that, you know, it was marketable 137 00:08:27,399 --> 00:08:32,720 fish perfectly good for us. Of course, it's the market. 138 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,960 The reason for it all is because the market wants 139 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,919 bigger fish now so the bigger so I hear anyway, 140 00:08:40,279 --> 00:08:44,360 I can't accept it because, as I've said a few traders, Oh, 141 00:08:44,399 --> 00:08:47,080 I see, so that you reckon that the house wave 142 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,159 would far rather pay twenty five pound akilo than ten 143 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,679 not pay so much for it, And then we have 144 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:59,799 obesity problems. So we're words. Is it all in? 145 00:09:00,639 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't have the answers to that one. 146 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,919 Speaker 1: No, I don't know, nobody does, nobody does it just 147 00:09:08,039 --> 00:09:11,039 it's out of hand, I think, and we just needs 148 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:12,679 to get it. We need to get I grow up. 149 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,960 Do high profile documentaries have a duty to show balanced 150 00:09:17,159 --> 00:09:22,399 science or is good photography and clever storytelling enough to 151 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:23,720 shape public opinion? 152 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,399 Speaker 2: This is a really interesting question. I think, yeah, clever 153 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,639 storytelling with always shaped public opinion, probably more than anything else. 154 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,080 And it has always been that way, hasn't it? And 155 00:09:35,159 --> 00:09:38,679 also bad news always sells more than good. But I 156 00:09:38,759 --> 00:09:41,559 do think that the book really stops with the scientists. 157 00:09:41,759 --> 00:09:44,399 You know, we have not got our act together. We 158 00:09:44,519 --> 00:09:48,440 offer highly polarized advice. It's all evidence based, but it 159 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:54,240 addresses different questions, uses different methods and data produces very 160 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,159 different recommendations, so it does boil down I think to 161 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,960 the communication evidence in the persuasi andess of arguments that 162 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,279 are made, and at times the balance is lost. So 163 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,919 I think we as scientists need to get much better 164 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:13,039 at doing interdisciplinary research and really integrating different evidence from 165 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:18,080 across environmental, economic, and social sciences. And research finders have 166 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,799 been asked in asking us to do this for decades 167 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,720 and we're still not really delivering it. And I think 168 00:10:23,759 --> 00:10:27,240 the film exposes that lack of jo end up thinking 169 00:10:27,279 --> 00:10:30,840 from scientists. It was very much from an environmental science perspective. 170 00:10:31,159 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I often wonder one of the messages that 171 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,399 has been lost with us as well. And I got 172 00:10:40,399 --> 00:10:45,320 this from officially scientist in an earlier podcast, and he 173 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,639 worked with what was in Marine Scotland which has now 174 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,799 the Marine Directorate, and he did a lot of surveys 175 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,799 on prawn's and the results they have which I thought 176 00:10:56,919 --> 00:11:01,679 was interesting. So the authorities have that on file and 177 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:06,399 he reckons that from a conservation point of view on 178 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:12,360 nephrop's prawns as we call them, trolling is better for 179 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:17,240 the stalk than creels, because he says, with the nature 180 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:22,879 of the way they live, the prawn it's as he 181 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:28,080 described it's almost like a harem, a male will service 182 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:33,240 maybe up to fifteen to twenty females. Now, the results 183 00:11:33,279 --> 00:11:38,799 they found when they're trolling, there'll be sixty to eighty 184 00:11:38,879 --> 00:11:42,480 percent of the catch will be males and a far 185 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,639 far smaller percentage is females. But when it's taken from creels, 186 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,919 the percentage of female is far greater. The reason for 187 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:58,240 the troll is males are out their burrows and foraging, 188 00:11:58,919 --> 00:12:04,000 feeding or most of the day, and the females only 189 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:08,279 come out once a day to feed. And of course 190 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,559 they go into the creel and that same court. So 191 00:12:12,279 --> 00:12:15,799 he says they have that information there and that was 192 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:20,120 done a lot. So on a conservation point of view, 193 00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:24,360 trolling for nephrops is better than static. 194 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 2: Well that's if you're just taking it from the perspective 195 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,759 of the stock. And I can't comment on that specific city, 196 00:12:31,799 --> 00:12:35,240 and I'm certainly not a prone specialist. Social scientist the 197 00:12:35,279 --> 00:12:40,159 only way to talk about society of fishing. But I 198 00:12:40,159 --> 00:12:42,519 think the point really to think about that, I think 199 00:12:42,519 --> 00:12:46,200 that you've clarified there is that there's also divisions within 200 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:52,399 environmental science and within fishery science about the perspectives of 201 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,399 those who are understanding how stocks work within a single species, 202 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,840 and those who are advocating for broader ecosystems about approach 203 00:12:58,879 --> 00:13:03,440 to fisheries management. It looks at being the interdependencies of 204 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,399 the prawn with everything else that's in the scene and 205 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,320 tries to understand it as part of the broader ecosystem. 206 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,159 So that I suppose that's that's one element to bring 207 00:13:12,159 --> 00:13:14,240 to that. But yeah, I mean, you know, it's all 208 00:13:14,279 --> 00:13:17,159 just very contested and I think, you know, wonder the 209 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,559 public and everybody else is confused about what to do. 210 00:13:19,799 --> 00:13:22,360 But I think that that is that's down to scientists 211 00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:25,360 needs to get much better at talking with each other 212 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,159 across these different fields of research to try and come 213 00:13:29,159 --> 00:13:33,559 out with some kind of consensus around around what's going 214 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:34,679 on and how things work. 215 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,799 Speaker 1: To be blunt, is this film eco propaganda? 216 00:13:41,039 --> 00:13:43,039 Speaker 2: I don't think it is. No, I think it was. 217 00:13:43,879 --> 00:13:47,240 I think it could have been better informed with more 218 00:13:47,279 --> 00:13:50,759 divergent views about what is working. So yeah, I think 219 00:13:50,799 --> 00:13:56,480 ecopropaganda is quite a strong term. I wouldn't necessarily use that. 220 00:13:56,519 --> 00:13:58,759 Some credit has to be given to the documentary makers. 221 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,240 They're trying the raise awareness of the value of our 222 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,720 ocean and the complexity of it. I think, which is 223 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,000 no bad thing, but I think, yeah, the particular focus 224 00:14:10,039 --> 00:14:12,559 on trawling I think was a bit of a missed 225 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,519 opportunity to offer more balanced you about some of the 226 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,679 things that are working in fisheries management more generally, rather 227 00:14:19,679 --> 00:14:20,759 than just focusing on that. 228 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,919 Speaker 1: Is this a fair fate or environmental bullying? 229 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 2: No, don't, I don't think. Well, there are several injustices 230 00:14:30,279 --> 00:14:32,759 in this which I probably lay out to you if 231 00:14:32,799 --> 00:14:34,480 you have to ask me about whether I was for 232 00:14:34,679 --> 00:14:38,120 or against a ban on bottom trawling. I think that 233 00:14:38,879 --> 00:14:41,440 the fair fight aspect, I think there are powerful voices 234 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,799 on both sides, both the fishing industry and environmental enginers. 235 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,720 And sadly people fall through the cracks of that in 236 00:14:48,759 --> 00:14:51,919 the middle who who are being impacted? But you know 237 00:14:52,039 --> 00:14:55,000 by that, by that division, which is a shame. So 238 00:14:55,159 --> 00:14:59,799 I would really Yeah, I'm always trying to urge very 239 00:14:59,799 --> 00:15:03,440 com competing opinions and different opposing sides to try and 240 00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:06,559 come together and find some level of common ground. I 241 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:07,600 think it's really important. 242 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,679 Speaker 1: Are you for or against a ban on all trolley 243 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,559 in all MPAs in the UK or outly in your reasoning? 244 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I've thought a lot about this so to 245 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,639 hear me, I think, to start with, I think there 246 00:15:23,679 --> 00:15:28,519 is a stronger case for stopping industrial scale trawlling and MPAs, 247 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,759 although that comes with the caveat that how you're defining 248 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,360 industrial scale is indeed a challenge. And I think to 249 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,000 stop tolling where there is evidence that it's causing damage 250 00:15:38,039 --> 00:15:41,919 to protected features and MBAs such as seagrass beds, et cetera. 251 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,679 You know, these are really important habitats that do need 252 00:15:44,799 --> 00:15:48,200 protecting for the societal benefits that they deliver, and I 253 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,759 don't imagine there's much controversy about that. However, the current 254 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,879 campaign from several endos is about an indiscriminate ban on 255 00:15:56,039 --> 00:15:59,559 all trawlling in all MPAs, And this is a different thing. 256 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,279 And this is something that I do not support. And 257 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,840 there are three main reasons why, and I go through 258 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:11,320 those if I may so. The cause, as far as 259 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,639 I've seen. The first reason, as far as I've seen, 260 00:16:14,759 --> 00:16:19,240 and I may be wrong sometimes I'm is paid. The 261 00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:22,440 campaigns have paid no consideration at all to the impacts 262 00:16:22,519 --> 00:16:25,519 on people's lives. So how would this affect How would 263 00:16:25,519 --> 00:16:29,039 such a band affect regional economies in coastal areas that 264 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,559 are already struggling with multiple forms of deprivation and disadvantage 265 00:16:32,679 --> 00:16:37,919 relative in land areas, and I find that quite quite 266 00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:40,000 a shame really, you know, all the resources that must 267 00:16:40,039 --> 00:16:42,440 be thrown at these campaigns, it is not a big 268 00:16:42,559 --> 00:16:45,960 job to conduct a straightforward assessment of how many boats 269 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,519 and how many families would be affected by a ban 270 00:16:48,639 --> 00:16:52,159 on tooling, so that we can transparently weigh up the 271 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:57,120 proposed ecological gains against economic and social costs. So I 272 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,000 think promoting the band without the recognition of the impact 273 00:17:00,039 --> 00:17:04,759 act on people's lives is really is an ethical and 274 00:17:04,799 --> 00:17:07,640 in my view, is against the principles that are laid 275 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,839 out in the coming Montreal Global Bidiversity Framework. And this 276 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,640 is an international vision or global biodiversity goals to which 277 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,160 we are signed up to as a country, and it's 278 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,640 explicit in its wording that protecting and restoring natural ecosystems 279 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,440 should be done in a way that takes into account 280 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,839 those people most dependent on biodiversity, Encouraging sustainable use by 281 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:36,160 indigenous and local communities and taking into account surely means 282 00:17:36,319 --> 00:17:39,960 conducting social impact assessments of some form and working in 283 00:17:40,039 --> 00:17:43,720 partnership with fishermen to try and improve bidiversity goals together, 284 00:17:44,319 --> 00:17:46,480 so I really hope to see some change regarding this. 285 00:17:46,799 --> 00:17:49,440 We've got very rich data on the UK fishing fleet 286 00:17:49,519 --> 00:17:53,160 in this country. Seafish conducts its annual fleet survey, which 287 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,359 is publicly available, so establishing the societal impact of the 288 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,680 band should be a priority so formed choices can be made. 289 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,400 So that's that's reason one. I would never be able 290 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,480 to support something where I can't be where I don't feel 291 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,440 that I can see the full implications of doing so. 292 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,160 The second reason is related to this, but it and 293 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,240 it also comes across in some of the narrative of 294 00:18:17,279 --> 00:18:20,599 the Ocean movie that there's a continuing sense that MPAs 295 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,440 cover such small areas that banning trawling within them is 296 00:18:24,799 --> 00:18:27,920 a tiny ass and this is just not the case 297 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,440 in the UK at least overall, we have thirty eight 298 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,839 percent of UK waters covered by an MPa designation of 299 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,519 one form or another, and this rises to forty seven 300 00:18:37,559 --> 00:18:40,880 percent in shore, so within the six nautical miles of 301 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,519 the coastline. This is according to j and CC figures, 302 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:46,960 and this is where many of our small scale fisheries, 303 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,480 which make up seventy percent of our fleet, are heavily 304 00:18:49,519 --> 00:18:54,000 dependent on fishing grounds. Shallow inshore seas pointed out in 305 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,559 the Ocean Movie often have a much higher concentration of 306 00:18:57,599 --> 00:19:03,400 biodiversity and protected features, and subsequently higher MPa coverage, So 307 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,599 the burden of a complete ban on trawling is very 308 00:19:06,759 --> 00:19:09,960 likely to be shouldered by the small scale fishing sector, 309 00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:14,200 who are arguably less able to absorb the costs of 310 00:19:14,279 --> 00:19:18,400 lost ground and are often allbeit not always, doing less 311 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:23,519 damage relative to industrial scale trawling. So in England the 312 00:19:23,599 --> 00:19:26,160 average is fifty one percent of our intore waters are 313 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,039 now designated as an MPa. In some regions this is 314 00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:32,759 as high as ninety percent. For example, on our eastern 315 00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:36,839 coastline in Northumberland it's seventy percent. So we really need 316 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,759 some transparency about the extent to which a ban on 317 00:19:39,839 --> 00:19:44,599 trawling in all MPAs disadvantages small scale fishes, many of 318 00:19:44,599 --> 00:19:48,279 whom are reliant on trawling inshore because their boats are 319 00:19:48,599 --> 00:19:52,480 small and it's unsafe to venture offshore. So it's very 320 00:19:52,839 --> 00:19:56,720 contradictory for an NGO to say it supports small scale fissuies, 321 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,720 which many of the environmental endeers claim, but be silent 322 00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:04,279 on whether this extends to small scale trawlers. So the 323 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,200 third reason, and this is really the biggest one and 324 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,920 why I wanted to do this podcast. You know, we 325 00:20:10,039 --> 00:20:14,319 often here the MPAs are just paper parks designated on 326 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,160 paper only. I think Dave Lattenburg made reference to this 327 00:20:17,279 --> 00:20:19,720 as well, but this is absolutely not the case in 328 00:20:19,799 --> 00:20:24,480 England's in short waters because we have regional Fisheries management 329 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,279 bodies called ifkers. You'll spend the last ten years carefully 330 00:20:28,319 --> 00:20:33,279 implementing jeff as revised approach to the MPa management. Offshore, 331 00:20:33,279 --> 00:20:35,759 it's a different matter, and the MMO are implementing new 332 00:20:35,799 --> 00:20:38,480 management there which I know less about. But I just 333 00:20:38,519 --> 00:20:41,400 spent the last two years writing a report for the 334 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,160 Association of Ikas where I was interviewing over seventy staff 335 00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:48,319 from across all ten of England, and one of their 336 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,680 major achievements is in shore MPa management. So if gers 337 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:57,000 have already carefully assessed every fishing activity that takes place 338 00:20:57,039 --> 00:21:01,160 in an MPa its impacts on protective which are the 339 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,480 reasons why the MPAs were originally established, and then using 340 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,039 that evidence produced by themselves and other statutory bodies that 341 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:14,279 natural England, accompanied by extensive stakeholder engagement with coastal communities 342 00:21:14,279 --> 00:21:18,759 in their regions. They've got a really good understanding of 343 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,200 the local social and economic context of the MPAs and 344 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,920 the management that's required, and they've not only assessed what 345 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,000 those fishing impacts are, but then they've implemented, using their 346 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,240 local by law making powers, effective management measures that either 347 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,599 remove or mitigate the impact. And this is really delivering, 348 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,799 on a case by case basis for each MPa a 349 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,799 balance between effective conservation and protection and features with fiable 350 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,920 fishing livelihoods. If BECAUSE evolved they were set up by 351 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,240 the Marine and Coastal Access Act MACCA in two thousand 352 00:21:52,279 --> 00:21:55,839 and nine do this and they've been delivering effective MPa 353 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,160 management ever since. This is done through the IFCA process 354 00:22:00,599 --> 00:22:03,799 in partnerships with fishermen who sit on the decision making 355 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,839 committees alongside a range of other coastal stakeholders all representing 356 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,920 different coastal interests in their regions, which includes environmental groups, 357 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,640 and they as a committee they navigate the hard choices 358 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:20,039 and trade offs through debate in their committees, which sometimes 359 00:22:20,079 --> 00:22:22,720 does result in fraide relationships with fishermen who over the 360 00:22:22,839 --> 00:22:25,519 years have had to concede a lot to make rooms 361 00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:30,400 for effective conservation. So in England, in share trawling where 362 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,720 it is permitted, in an MPa is carefully monitored, it's 363 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,200 carefully managed and if it enforces the management, it produces 364 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,640 and it coexists alongside effective marine conservation. And there are 365 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,039 many examples of this which are A won't go into 366 00:22:45,079 --> 00:22:47,279 great detail, but a good example is Pool Harbor on 367 00:22:47,319 --> 00:22:50,160 the Dorsetate coast and it is a local small scale 368 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,960 dredge fishery for clams and cockle It's an MSc certified 369 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,359 fishery for its sustainability and it delivers huge benefits for 370 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,480 the local region. And I think if you've ever been 371 00:23:00,519 --> 00:23:02,599 to some of the seafred restaurants in Ple, you'll know 372 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,680 what I mean. The protected features of the Harbor, which 373 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,240 is one of the most heavily designated MPAs in Europe, 374 00:23:09,279 --> 00:23:13,400 I think, are carefully one for impact. The management in 375 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,079 place has been tailored, combining a whole suite of different tools. 376 00:23:17,079 --> 00:23:20,119 They've got no take zones, you've got licenses to limit 377 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,160 fishing pressure. You cannot fish at certain times of the 378 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,119 day to avoid bird disturbance during certain seasons, which is 379 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,400 what many of our MPAs are designated to protect bird 380 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,680 wildlife and it's almost like a work of art enabling 381 00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:40,720 coexistence of trawling and effective MPa protection. So in my view, 382 00:23:40,759 --> 00:23:43,200 a call for a complete banner of trawling and MPAs 383 00:23:43,319 --> 00:23:46,640 is an abandonment of the management that we now have 384 00:23:46,759 --> 00:23:50,359 in place in shore in England at least. And I 385 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,359 would stress here that the IFCA delivery of death is 386 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,720 revised approach is only relevant for England. I cannot speak 387 00:23:57,759 --> 00:23:59,720 for other countries in the UK, but I know that 388 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,680 there's there is a real concern about the lack of 389 00:24:01,759 --> 00:24:04,920 MPa management where the remains high levels of troiling and 390 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,400 seawan and I think this is warranted. But it would 391 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,319 have been a great thing to see David Attenburg discussing 392 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,799 some of the innovations of IFA MPa management, so you 393 00:24:14,839 --> 00:24:18,559 really celibrate the achievements made in the pursuit of coexistence 394 00:24:18,599 --> 00:24:21,240 of fisheries in the natural world. So yeah, I feel 395 00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:23,319 it's a bit of a lost opportunity. Would have been 396 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,440 good to get some of that really positive story there. 397 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: Yes, especially to have the environment at see or Ocean 398 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,799 and not have fishermen and that when they're such a 399 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,000 major part of it. 400 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you're right to start talking about fisheries 401 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,440 management or the ocean without fishing fishermen in it is 402 00:24:46,519 --> 00:24:48,200 just a non starter. You know, they need to be 403 00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:51,039 part of the solution. They are, They have rights to 404 00:24:51,079 --> 00:24:53,599 be part of that story, but they're important part of 405 00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:54,079 that story. 406 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: Yep. It asks the question are they trying to ban 407 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:58,839 something they don't understand. 408 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 2: I think this is a lack of acknowledgement of the 409 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,279 progress that has been made in MPa management and good 410 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,920 process that's in place. And yeah, I think this is 411 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,960 not a difficult thing to resolve, and it's a case 412 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,160 of just going back to the same mold arguments without 413 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,519 acknowledging the progress. Yeah, that's about what I think. 414 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: What do you feel about banning bottom trolling? It doesn't 415 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:27,000 stop demand, It just ships it off to someone else 416 00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:31,640 with lower standards. Where's the logic in that if it's 417 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,160 a country that hasn't got this standards that we have, 418 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,279 that we're going to be imported in it from. 419 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a good point. You know how 420 00:25:41,319 --> 00:25:44,680 there's huge variation in the capacity to enforce what to 421 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,279 implement the management and then enforce it. That's obviously very 422 00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:50,640 unequal capacities of different countries around the world to do that. 423 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,680 So in a way that's that's a really good point 424 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,440 because it just puts the onus on countries out of 425 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,440 the UK that are already delivering some really high quality 426 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,079 management to really recognize that and to promote it and 427 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,599 to share knowledge about how it can be done. 428 00:26:06,759 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: Which you've used alternatives to bands in what MPa seasonal closures, 429 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:14,480 gear innovations. 430 00:26:15,839 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 2: I would just say management and especially regional co management 431 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,440 of MPAs which involve communities is the way forward and 432 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,079 I think that's exactly what the iffkas are delivering in England. 433 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,920 You know, adoption of that model and real investment into 434 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:35,319 producing the evidence that inderpins decision making process. Decision making 435 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,640 processes that include, rather than exclude, all those who are 436 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,880 involved and impacted by the decisions is really the only 437 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,599 fair and effective way forward and is where you'll get 438 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,039 the real buy in from coastal communities. Not everybody will 439 00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:51,799 agree with the outcome in terms of the management decisions, 440 00:26:51,799 --> 00:26:54,720 but at least they can be part of in respect 441 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,240 the legitimacy of process by which decisions are made. The 442 00:26:59,279 --> 00:27:01,559 best thing about this is that the delivery of IFA 443 00:27:01,799 --> 00:27:04,279 MPa management in England shows that it can be done 444 00:27:04,279 --> 00:27:07,200 in it shows how to do it. It's not perfect, 445 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,240 but what is and I think it's as good as 446 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:14,200 we probably ever get, to be honest, And yeah, so 447 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,839 I think that's the alternative to the ban is investing 448 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,240 in proper management and I think the value of doing 449 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,440 that at regional level is enormous because that is where 450 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,240 the detailed understanding of of not just the environment, but 451 00:27:28,319 --> 00:27:31,759 also the social and the economic contexts within the region 452 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,279 where the MPa is located, that is all harbored a 453 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:36,359 regional level. 454 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 1: Really, I speak to all kinds trolling trollers, scallop bridgers 455 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:51,039 and study gear creel fishermen as we call them here, 456 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:57,720 and they are perfectly comfortable with well saying seasonal closures. 457 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,480 There would maybe one of them would maybe fish an 458 00:28:01,519 --> 00:28:06,000 area for a certain period and then they would move 459 00:28:06,079 --> 00:28:09,599 away and another form of fishing would come in and 460 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,160 they do that successfully London. They're just just talking to 461 00:28:13,279 --> 00:28:18,799 each other, so it is working degree maybe not legislation, 462 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,720 but it does work, and fishermen are perfectly happy to 463 00:28:23,759 --> 00:28:24,519 speak about that. 464 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. I've had similar conversations with real fishermen in Northumberland 465 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,480 and they often lament the natural seasonal closures that used 466 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,839 to occur over the winter months when they would give 467 00:28:35,839 --> 00:28:38,279 the lobster grounds a rest and they turn to netting 468 00:28:38,319 --> 00:28:40,880 for salmon. So now that is lost, you know, they 469 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:46,079 can't they're restricted from netting, usually restricted from fishing for 470 00:28:46,119 --> 00:28:49,400 salmon at all now and that diversification has been eroded 471 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,599 over the years. So now they are fishing all year around, 472 00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:56,400 fishing hard for lobster. You know, they have to make 473 00:28:56,519 --> 00:29:02,400 ends meet as well. Yeah, so that there's been a 474 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,000 kind of the traditional seasonality of fishing is something that 475 00:29:06,039 --> 00:29:08,400 we have lost, which is a great shame, and so 476 00:29:08,519 --> 00:29:12,119 anything to find support that to come back again, I think, Yeah, 477 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,039 I imagine it's very welcome by fishermen, certainly fishermen in Northumberland. 478 00:29:16,319 --> 00:29:20,359 I speeches would advocate to that as well, but as 479 00:29:20,359 --> 00:29:24,039 well as limiting the amount of intense fishing that goes on, 480 00:29:24,119 --> 00:29:27,319 you know, I did a study recently on with potters 481 00:29:27,359 --> 00:29:30,160 with potters in Northumberland, and all of them were very 482 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:35,359 grateful for the inshore hot limitation that we have in Northumberland, 483 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,039 which is eight hundred pots and per boat, and offshore 484 00:29:39,119 --> 00:29:43,000 beyond six nautical miles that doesn't exist, and they are large. 485 00:29:43,079 --> 00:29:46,039 By and large, the people I interviewed were quite concerned 486 00:29:46,079 --> 00:29:48,680 about the overfishing that happens beyond the six but we're 487 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,519 quite happy that within the six at least they've got 488 00:29:51,519 --> 00:29:53,599 that limitation in there, and I know that other iffkas 489 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,839 are trying to implement that as we speak in other 490 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,240 parts of the country. But there's a huge value in 491 00:29:58,519 --> 00:30:01,319 going to fishermen with the problem. You know, how would 492 00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:04,680 you how would you manage this in its entirety, rather 493 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,039 than doing what we currently seem to do as scientists 494 00:30:08,039 --> 00:30:10,839 and as the government, which is going to going to 495 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,279 fishermen with some predesigned, pre cooked solutions and asking them 496 00:30:14,279 --> 00:30:18,839 if they agree or not. That stunts creativity and the 497 00:30:18,839 --> 00:30:21,039 wealth of knowledge that fishermen have about how to manage 498 00:30:21,039 --> 00:30:22,720 their own their own livelihoods. 499 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: There's there a risk of celebrity driven environmentalism and what 500 00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:31,000 qualification wealth, what qualifications does happen? But I have regard 501 00:30:31,079 --> 00:30:32,039 and bottom trolling. 502 00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:35,039 Speaker 2: Yeah again, I think it's down to the scientists to 503 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:40,559 ensure that the research teams behind documentaries is really informed. 504 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:46,240 I think celebrities contribute a great deal. With the work 505 00:30:46,279 --> 00:30:49,240 of David Attenburg has been incredibly important over the years 506 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,400 to inspire so many of us to take an interest 507 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,319 in the natural world. I think those stories just need 508 00:30:54,359 --> 00:30:56,720 to be expanded a little to include the people who 509 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,599 depend on those natural resources, their livelihoods. Did they become 510 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,839 part of the story rather than on the margins of it? 511 00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:08,200 And I think, yeah, I don't know how you how 512 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:11,000 you do that, but it would have been nice. This 513 00:31:11,079 --> 00:31:12,839 could have been an opportunity to do more of that. 514 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,359 I think in this movie some of it is there. 515 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,079 You do it. You see fishermen, and there is the 516 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:24,599 recognition of food security, and there's some interviews with fishermen, 517 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,480 which which is an important part of the movie. It's 518 00:31:27,519 --> 00:31:29,720 not it was balanced in some respect. 519 00:31:30,319 --> 00:31:35,799 Speaker 1: It's interesting people different views. Some people would a fisherman 520 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,599 would say, well, after this, Lord, he's certainly not a 521 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:44,079 national treasure in the eyes of fishing goose. He's a No, 522 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:49,240 he's a campaigner. This foam lands like a torpedo under 523 00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:55,279 the water lane of in the industry already already under 524 00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:00,960 siege and is Italian half truth And when you've got 525 00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:05,720 the voice of God that some people's and a global platform, 526 00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:09,480 half the story can do real damage. 527 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think that, But again, the book places 528 00:32:13,799 --> 00:32:17,160 with the scientists, you know, as a social scientist. Yeah, 529 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,599 it's my fault that that maybe went ahead with that 530 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,160 remaking these points. How do we get our how do 531 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,359 we communicate our science more effectively? I don't know. So 532 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,720 that's something I've been going on because it is there 533 00:32:30,759 --> 00:32:32,880 is I think. I do think it's the responsibility to 534 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,359 the scientists, as I said before, get their act together 535 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:41,720 and work more closely and have debates and ask the 536 00:32:41,799 --> 00:32:44,839 hard questions. But at least having the debate is what matters. 537 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,400 And I don't think we do that enough. We have 538 00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:52,319 gone down the route of busily writing papers and not 539 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:58,680 having enough platforms for this meaningful discussions. It's a real 540 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,000 shame state of academia the days is often in the news. 541 00:33:03,039 --> 00:33:06,319 Could be doing better in all friends, Yeah, this in 542 00:33:06,359 --> 00:33:08,039 particular just transition. 543 00:33:08,319 --> 00:33:12,079 Speaker 1: What do you understand about the term just transition and 544 00:33:12,119 --> 00:33:15,559 what relevance do you think it has in the context 545 00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:18,039 of a troll barn and mp us. 546 00:33:19,119 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is a I think a very useful 547 00:33:21,359 --> 00:33:23,799 term which I would like to hear more of in 548 00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:26,759 the context of this, and so we often hear it, 549 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,599 but I think often when we hear just transition. People 550 00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:33,039 talk about the transition, which is about the change, and 551 00:33:33,119 --> 00:33:34,799 you know, I think we do need to change to 552 00:33:34,839 --> 00:33:38,559 reduce the environmental impact of food production across all sectors, 553 00:33:38,599 --> 00:33:42,319 not just in fisheries. But there has been too much 554 00:33:42,319 --> 00:33:45,599 focus on the transitioning part of this and less focus 555 00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:50,039 on the justice element. I think. But transition to be just, 556 00:33:50,799 --> 00:33:53,000 it needs to include those who stand to be most 557 00:33:53,039 --> 00:33:57,000 affected by the change, which in this case it would 558 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,480 be the you know, their voices need to be heard 559 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,880 in this as part of procedural justice, and at the 560 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,160 moment they're just not being heard I think at all. 561 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,960 Which are the missed opportunity as well as a clear injustice. 562 00:34:10,079 --> 00:34:13,000 You know, I recall speaking with a former scallop dredger. 563 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,960 He had moved into potting upon the Northumberland coast where 564 00:34:17,599 --> 00:34:20,719 where they actually the IFKA here had has removed all 565 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:27,440 scallop dredging within its within its district years ago. But 566 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,679 the fisherman who is now potting, he reflected that actually 567 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,000 didn't like to dredge the beds and he could see 568 00:34:33,039 --> 00:34:36,840 that that was causing damage, and he had moved into 569 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,440 potting and actually preferred it as a lower impact form 570 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,679 of fishing. That's just one one fisherman. You know, this 571 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,599 really needs to be discussed with fishermen and to understand 572 00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:51,000 the wider context of people's lives, the needs that they are, 573 00:34:52,039 --> 00:34:53,599 the things that they need to make a living, what 574 00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:56,599 they're up against, and what is possible and what is 575 00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:58,840 not possible for them. You know, some of the work 576 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,960 I've done recently is really high. I lighted the decline 577 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:06,800 in our fishing industry, which we've got over twenty five 578 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,760 percent of decline in many parts of the UK in 579 00:35:11,119 --> 00:35:15,239 just the last fourteen years. You know, it's a struggling 580 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,400 industry in many ways, losing a lot of boats from harbors, 581 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,360 so we need to take that into account. Is an 582 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,840 important context when we're talking about a just transition. So 583 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,199 how do we make sure that the just transition doesn't 584 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,880 just become a complete elimination of the entire fishing industry, 585 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,320 which as a country we value greatly Beyond economic contributions 586 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,159 and food contributions, people also have a very strong affinity 587 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,119 with the cultural and heritage value of fisheries. 588 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,159 Speaker 1: What do you think would be the biggest consequence of 589 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:54,000 implement and not implement NA ban and controlling and MPs. 590 00:35:55,639 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 2: So I read yesterday a very good article in the Spectator, 591 00:36:00,119 --> 00:36:03,199 written obviously in the aftermath of the disappointment of the 592 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,559 EU trade negotiation this week. It was written by Gus 593 00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:08,440 Carter in a Spectator and it was published with the 594 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,400 title why fishing Matters. And the last line of the 595 00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:15,679 article will resonate with many who are working in and 596 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,039 for commercial fisheries, and it reads simply, this says, keeping 597 00:36:20,039 --> 00:36:23,840 our fishermen alive is more than an economic calculation, it's 598 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,559 a cultural duty. And that really resonated with me. And 599 00:36:28,599 --> 00:36:32,119 so I think that implementing a ban across all MPAs 600 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,039 would be a failure of our fisheries and I think 601 00:36:36,199 --> 00:36:40,559 it could risk undermining off security, which has often been 602 00:36:40,599 --> 00:36:43,800 said is our national security. What we need to consider 603 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,360 here is the true extent of NPA coverage, the impacts 604 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,960 on landed fish as well as livelihoods lost. And remember 605 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,880 that fisheries is vunerable to climate change, but in different 606 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,440 ways to the food that we produce on land. A 607 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,360 long dry summer or prolonged periods of flooding does not 608 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,239 affect fishermen in the same way as it will affect farmers, 609 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,719 and this needs to be recognized. I think, yeah, so 610 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,039 these would be the two consequences of implementing it in 611 00:37:14,079 --> 00:37:17,519 its current formats. But I think we still need to 612 00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:20,039 keep these conversations going. I think it's down to the 613 00:37:20,119 --> 00:37:24,079 environmental endos to show a bit of flexibility and acknowledge 614 00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:27,400 this wider context of a fishing fleet that's in decline, 615 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,239 acknowledge some of the impacts, particularly on small scale issuies 616 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,960 that many of the environmental engineers claim to be supporting, 617 00:37:35,079 --> 00:37:38,440 and to do to show us a broader range of 618 00:37:38,519 --> 00:37:41,400 evidence so that we can perhaps try and move forward 619 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:42,719 in a more collaborative way. 620 00:37:44,159 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: You brushed on the human cost of a bar what 621 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:54,199 would a ban on trolling mean for coastal communities and livelihoods? 622 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,519 Speaker 2: Well, currently we don't know, which is precisely the problem. 623 00:37:59,079 --> 00:38:01,239 We need to We need to establish what that is 624 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,119 and then make an informed, informed decisions about well, what 625 00:38:05,199 --> 00:38:09,280 are the the costs and disadvantages of this? And I 626 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,239 think what I would stress here is looking at the 627 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,599 inequalities of it. You so often I find that this 628 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,079 is not from the UK context, but more working more internationally, 629 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,360 that the burdens of marine conservation often fall on the 630 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:28,559 shoulders of the small scale fishermen and their families. And 631 00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:31,679 I've seen that repeated in many places. So I would 632 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,800 really stress that we need to look at who was 633 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,440 able to absorb such a band and who is not 634 00:38:38,519 --> 00:38:40,760 able to absorb it, and what are the implications for 635 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,039 those people that would be put out of business? And 636 00:38:43,079 --> 00:38:46,239 how how are those costs of the band distributed across 637 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,960 the society. You are some people going to be bearing 638 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,000 more of the costs than others, and I think that's 639 00:38:52,039 --> 00:38:55,960 a really important piece of work to do at some point. 640 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,159 There's just it's a big unknown, which is exactly the 641 00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:03,800 problem we need to find out before we surely advocate 642 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,880 for with such a massive changes to the makeup of ourficiency. 643 00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 1: Does any common ground exist between the fishing industry and 644 00:39:13,519 --> 00:39:16,840 energy or campaigns to ban troll in and a sure 645 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,679 how may this be built on to progress away forward? 646 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think this is a really important area 647 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,679 to establish. I think there is common ground where common 648 00:39:29,679 --> 00:39:33,079 ground is sought out can almost always be found in 649 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,559 any context. I think there's a common respect for evidence 650 00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:41,159 based arguments and management. I think there's a lot of 651 00:39:41,159 --> 00:39:44,199 common respect for the management that the ifcaulse have put 652 00:39:44,199 --> 00:39:47,679 in place. I think the frustration from NGOs is where 653 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,559 the management continues to lack progress, and I think this 654 00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:54,119 is understandable. But how much of this is about actual 655 00:39:54,199 --> 00:39:56,920 lack of progress or is it about lack of awareness 656 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,559 of what we have in places things that are working. 657 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:03,760 I think they will be common ground around trying to 658 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,559 reduce waste, reduce environmental impact, common ground about the importance 659 00:40:07,559 --> 00:40:10,599 of working with fishermen in partnership as much as possible. 660 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,159 I do. The work I've done in the last few 661 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,199 years has been working very closely with the Blue Marine Foundation. 662 00:40:17,559 --> 00:40:21,360 There's brilliant colleagues there, and we've been running workshops to 663 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,960 hear from the insurance more scale fishing sector about some 664 00:40:26,039 --> 00:40:28,800 of the challenges that they are facing in terms of 665 00:40:30,599 --> 00:40:33,360 ensuring that their livelihoods are sustainable and they're able to 666 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,519 achieve a good quality of life. So there is common 667 00:40:36,519 --> 00:40:39,920 ground there. I think it's often behind the scenes and 668 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,960 it is often not seen in the sort of very 669 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,599 polarized debates that gets plashed all of the newspapers. But 670 00:40:46,639 --> 00:40:49,920 I think many people working from all sides are very 671 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:54,639 committed to improving collaboration ensuring that the debates are fair 672 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,480 and that everyone has a heard voice, and that we're 673 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,119 committed to try and progress simple kind of joined up 674 00:41:02,199 --> 00:41:05,079 thinking as we move forward. 675 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,119 Speaker 1: And as we do, who gets to decide policy is 676 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,159 increasingly shaped by public pressure. How do we ensure that 677 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,039 science stays at the heart of its conversation. 678 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,199 Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a lot of that is down 679 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,000 to scientists. You know, they need to make sure the 680 00:41:22,039 --> 00:41:25,000 evidence is heard by the right people, and they need 681 00:41:25,079 --> 00:41:29,159 to make sure that they communicate their science clearly that 682 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,920 is understandable by wide range of different actors involved in this, 683 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,880 and they need to work harder to collaborate with people 684 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,199 from different disciplines to be able to speak with a 685 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,239 single voice. So that is something that I think science 686 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:49,159 need to get better at doing generally. But policy is 687 00:41:49,159 --> 00:41:50,880 always going to be shaped by public pressure as well. 688 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,719 So it's just recognizing that science should stay at the heart, 689 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,880 but it probably barely. It really is at the heart 690 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,199 of all of this. Policy is always very strong, So 691 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,400 that's a good question. But all we can do is 692 00:42:04,679 --> 00:42:07,599 try to speak with the single voice, and I think 693 00:42:07,639 --> 00:42:11,559 that again is where it's so important for collaboration between 694 00:42:11,639 --> 00:42:15,639 environmental adios and the fishing industry and scientists so that 695 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,280 they can find out what that single voice might be. 696 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,440 Because when everyone comes together and says the same thing, 697 00:42:22,159 --> 00:42:24,960 that is when I think the science really starts to 698 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,079 be heard when it's advocated in that way. 699 00:42:29,079 --> 00:42:34,679 Speaker 1: And who really drives a narrative scientist enery or the 700 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,880 media or public figures like Uptenborough. 701 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that there's a role for everyone. Communication 702 00:42:43,159 --> 00:42:46,840 of science across broad audiences is really important and people 703 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,719 like David Attenborough helped to do that. So you know, 704 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:54,400 we're not all good communicators, terrible communicator rather be sitting 705 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,199 in the library writing by myself and speaking to no one, 706 00:42:57,199 --> 00:43:01,199 but we've all got to, I think, just try and 707 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,119 find that common ground again. Yeah, so that the narrative 708 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,400 is clear and agreed as much as possible. And you 709 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,400 won't always get agreement on every point. But in that case, 710 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,800 which are the points that are that can be agreed? 711 00:43:13,679 --> 00:43:17,480 Can those things be communicated better? Because I think that 712 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,599 the public must be pretty confused to be honest. You know, 713 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,000 some research I've done just this summer was well and 714 00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:29,000 last year as well, we looked at we did a 715 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,280 public survey on how the public and coastal communities feel 716 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,440 about the fitting industry, and it was overwhelmingly positive. And 717 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,920 I wonder how that same public will feel going to 718 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,960 watch the movie and maybe feeling quite conflicted and confused 719 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,920 by some of the messages that come from that movie. 720 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,760 So we've got sort some of this out, I think, 721 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,639 and just try and join things up a bit better 722 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,280 as scientists working more closely with mgos and the media. 723 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:02,119 Speaker 1: I agree with that, and I would say one of them. 724 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,840 But I feel this one of the big problems in 725 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:10,800 it all is you get enforcement, you get scientists, and 726 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:15,280 you get fishermen, and neither of them trust each other. 727 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with you, but I don't trust. It 728 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,239 is a difficult concept. I mean, just myself half the time. 729 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,119 Are we expecting too much to think that we need 730 00:44:28,159 --> 00:44:29,880 to trust one another in that way? I think if 731 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,400 we can respect one another, that's the foundation of a 732 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,719 good relationship. And the relationship is what matters, I think, 733 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,679 and the communication is what matters. And I said earlier, 734 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:43,320 I was at the Whitby Fish and Chips Festival and 735 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,800 it was a brilliant example of the importance of festivals 736 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:52,280 like that. It was two days of so many different 737 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,400 people coming together without the public. You had the local fishermen, 738 00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:01,119 you had the local IFKA, you had my olth academics 739 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:06,320 and environmental and DEO staff all there together for two 740 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:12,079 days talking about and celebrating fisheries and spending that quality 741 00:45:12,119 --> 00:45:14,639 time together is just so incredibly important and we don't 742 00:45:14,639 --> 00:45:20,159 do enough of it. So I would say that the 743 00:45:20,199 --> 00:45:22,920 most important thing is trying to create more platforms where 744 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,800 people can come together and then they realize quite often 745 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,360 that they're on the same page. After all. 746 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: I did a previous podcast with Paul Gildroy from the 747 00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:39,880 Mudpie Caffee and he talks about the festival visionships and 748 00:45:40,199 --> 00:45:45,840 what I thought was tremendous and I felt about it 749 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,960 was how enthusiastic and important and important he put in 750 00:45:50,079 --> 00:45:54,039 it to get that message out to the public. So 751 00:45:55,199 --> 00:45:58,000 we need positive drive like that. 752 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean festivals are really important and there's 753 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,000 a particularly good one. I'd say that all sorts of 754 00:46:07,039 --> 00:46:11,639 inspirational stuff happened over the weekend. Amazing young ladies eleven 755 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:17,400 years old doing demonstrations of seafood, cookery and all that stuff, 756 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,840 and it was just it was a really important platform 757 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,079 to just come together and not be at loggerheads around 758 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,800 management from our different perspectives to just be together as 759 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,840 human beings, you know, and have a bit of a laugh. 760 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:30,000 It's really really good. 761 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:37,360 Speaker 1: Definitely, Definitely trolling and food security. Can we feed a 762 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:42,920 growing population without bottom trolling? Are we not feeding bullions 763 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,599 of people worldwide? Not just saving sea grass. 764 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,760 Speaker 2: I think we can save seagrass and retain food security 765 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,159 if we have the right management in place, and I 766 00:46:55,159 --> 00:46:56,880 think both are important. 767 00:46:57,559 --> 00:47:02,239 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, they can callig. I totally agree with you. 768 00:47:03,599 --> 00:47:08,519 I asked Ei a question for everybody on this series, 769 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:13,519 and the responses a challenge to Attenburg. If you had 770 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,400 five minutes with Sir David, what would you say? 771 00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a nice question. I think I would 772 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:24,440 ask him to go and spend a day with his 773 00:47:24,559 --> 00:47:28,039 local IFGA and just learn about what they do. And 774 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,199 the reason I would ask him to do that is 775 00:47:30,199 --> 00:47:34,000 that I think it'd feel inspired and hopeful for our future, 776 00:47:34,039 --> 00:47:36,280 because I know that is how I feel whenever I 777 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,800 spend time with an if I work a lot with 778 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,079 the Northern Bladika, and I always come out with their 779 00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:44,800 offices thinking I'm really glad I just spent that time 780 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,320 chatting with them. I learned so much, so I think 781 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:50,719 that's what I would suggest, he would you. 782 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:56,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, good answer. Which book or article do you think 783 00:47:57,719 --> 00:47:59,519 everyone in fisheries should read? 784 00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:05,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I think one of the frustrations that I've 785 00:48:05,679 --> 00:48:07,880 had over the last couple of years is the lack 786 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,519 of recognition of MPa management. You may you've picked up 787 00:48:11,519 --> 00:48:15,159 on stead of that frustration in this interview. So I 788 00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:20,159 would suggest basically a chapter book chapter by Sarah Berkineff 789 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,400 in the and it is that the seven IFA Manage 790 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,320 where she discusses the management of the pool, harbor, dredge 791 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:32,719 fishery resolving environmental and social socio economic objectives. And that 792 00:48:33,199 --> 00:48:37,480 was published in a book in twenty twenty edited by 793 00:48:37,559 --> 00:48:41,039 John Humphreys and Rob Clark called Marine Protected Areas, And 794 00:48:41,079 --> 00:48:45,159 there's lots of brilliant examples there of how effective management 795 00:48:45,159 --> 00:48:47,000 has been put in place in some of the challenges 796 00:48:47,039 --> 00:48:50,880 and successes around doing that in great detail, with loads 797 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,559 of both national and international case studies. So I think 798 00:48:54,559 --> 00:48:57,480 that would be a really good place to start. But 799 00:48:58,159 --> 00:49:01,920 if I made there's also a very good that was 800 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,400 written by Rob Clark who's the chief officer of the 801 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:10,039 Association of KAS and John Humphes and others called the 802 00:49:10,079 --> 00:49:14,159 Dialectics of Nature that was published in twenty seventeen in 803 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:19,440 Marine Policy, and that talks about the emergence of the 804 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:23,679 policy of the management of commercial fisheries in English European 805 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,880 marine sites. And it really explains in great detail the 806 00:49:27,079 --> 00:49:30,880 history and the context of the revised approach that I've 807 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,159 mentioned in this interview, the evolution of ikas who were 808 00:49:34,199 --> 00:49:36,960 created to deliver it. And I think that's such important 809 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,639 context to understand what we have achieved and realized that 810 00:49:40,679 --> 00:49:44,320 we're perhaps further forward with NPA management then we might 811 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:49,599 have anticipated watching the Attamborough movie, and I suppose really 812 00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,000 with a view to building on that which is working well, 813 00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,880 rather than just throwing it into a bus. Sometimes the 814 00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,039 case there's too I think would be really good. 815 00:50:01,599 --> 00:50:06,239 Speaker 1: Sounds good, So say one word to describe the future 816 00:50:06,639 --> 00:50:07,840 of British fisheries. 817 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:12,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a great question, Thank you for asking it. 818 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,320 I think the first word that popped into my head 819 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:21,440 is fragile. However, I then decided to just look that 820 00:50:21,599 --> 00:50:24,119 up in the dictionary and obviously I know what it means, 821 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,639 but I wanted to see precisely how it was defined. 822 00:50:27,679 --> 00:50:31,800 In the first words of that description, said breaks easily, 823 00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,800 and I thought, hang on a minute, that's not right, 824 00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:39,079 because lishamen don't break easily. You know, they're a resilient 825 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,960 They're a resilient bunch and they demonstrate that resilience every day. 826 00:50:43,039 --> 00:50:46,280 So I thought, that's not the right word. So I thought, 827 00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,519 what is a similar word to fragile? So I looked 828 00:50:49,519 --> 00:50:54,800 at precious and the definition of precious, according to the 829 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,920 Oxford English Dictionary, is of great value, not to be 830 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,559 wasted or treated carelessly. And I thought, that's about right. 831 00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:12,679 Speaker 1: That's absolutely wonderful. What a wonderful answer. I'm certainly certainly well, 832 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:17,599 we're getting it on. Not absolutely brilliant, Thank you so much, 833 00:51:19,199 --> 00:51:21,039 anything else you would when we're on. 834 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:29,159 Speaker 2: I just hope that these podcasts can be used to 835 00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:34,880 share knowledge, to critically reflect on different views, maybe make 836 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,639 people think about wins that they haven't thought about from 837 00:51:37,679 --> 00:51:41,480 a different perspective, and to try and yeah, be a 838 00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:46,519 bit open arms really about trying to move forward in 839 00:51:46,559 --> 00:51:50,360 a more collaborative way where we can bridge some of 840 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:54,519 these divisions between environmental views and fishing industry, because they 841 00:51:54,559 --> 00:52:00,639 are artificial divisions. Ultimately, we all want health the oceans 842 00:52:00,679 --> 00:52:04,119 and sustainable fisheries and flourishing coastal communities. That is our 843 00:52:04,119 --> 00:52:06,639 common ground and I think we need to start making 844 00:52:06,639 --> 00:52:09,679 more of an effort to really recognize that and build 845 00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:09,960 on it. 846 00:52:10,639 --> 00:52:13,960 Speaker 1: Excellent. Where can our listeners follow you on lane? 847 00:52:16,119 --> 00:52:21,559 Speaker 2: I'm RUPI online Newcastle website probably yeah, I don't really 848 00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,639 have much step on them online. So this is the 849 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,960 university web page, University of Newcastle, and we have a 850 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:33,159 coastal Fisheries cluster if you google that, it's on the 851 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,920 NICER website which is the National Innovation Center for Rural 852 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,039 Rural Enterprise. Sorry at Newcastle University. 853 00:52:40,559 --> 00:52:44,199 Speaker 1: Wonderful. I think with that, well, maybe pulled up and 854 00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,920 I'd just like to thank you very much. I felt 855 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,800 that it was a very balanced and fear view you 856 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,320 hard and things. Thank you very much. 857 00:52:53,519 --> 00:52:57,119 Speaker 2: Enjoyed it well, thank you very much for your time 858 00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:01,039 this afternoon for inviting me. I've enjoyed it too, thanks 859 00:53:01,119 --> 00:53:02,440 to Thank you,