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Speaker 1: Big Food and Beyond.

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Speaker 2: With Cliff and Bobo.

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Speaker 3: These guys are your favorites, so like say subscribe and

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Rade it stuck s me.

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Speaker 2: The greatest gone Bush.

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Speaker 1: Today and listening watching limb always keep its watching. And

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now you're hosts Cliff Berrickman and James Bobo Fay.

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Speaker 3: Hey, everybody, this is Cliff, and you're listening to Bigfoot

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and Beyond with Cliff almost always Bobo and Matt Prutz

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around here somewhere as usual. Bobo is not here today.

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He is off doing more important things. We're giving him

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a pass, which is all fine and good, we all

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need one every once in a while. But filling in

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his exceptionally large shoes will be Matt Prut. Matt, you

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look lovely today, even though you're in Nashville and I'm

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over in Sandy, Oregon.

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Speaker 2: I can't see you. I'm just imagining you looking lovely.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that I do wear a size twelve, what

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size shoe does, but where imagine it's larger.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's an interesting story, if I remember correctly, like

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this happened on finding Bigfoot. Actually about three or four

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years or so into finding Bigfoot, Bobo on the road somewhere.

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I think he messed up his shoes or like damage

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them or something, and he had to go get a

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different set of hiking boots. And so he went into

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a shoe store or maybe his RII or.

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Speaker 2: Something because it was hiking boots. I don't remember exactly

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where it was.

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Speaker 1: But he was.

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Speaker 3: Really excited when he came back with his new boots

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because he told me this story where like, oh I

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would and sat down. Do they measured my feet? And

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he had been wearing the wrong size shoes for about

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fifteen twenty years, and he'd been wearing shoes that were

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too small for him. So, if I remember correctly, Bobo

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wears a thirteen shoe, but he had been wearing twelves

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for the previous decade or two. Then he'd never quite

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understood why his feet.

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Speaker 2: Hurt all the time.

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Speaker 3: Classic, Hey, Robo, Bobo, how are you doing today?

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Speaker 2: See?

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Speaker 1: So I do wonder what we'll have to ask him?

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What is boot size?

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Speaker 3: This?

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Speaker 1: Either way, I can't fill his exceptionally large shoes. That's

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not possible.

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Speaker 3: No, when people asked me, like how tall is Bobo?

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I said, well, he's six foot four wearing boots a

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little over seven feet with his personality on I think

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that's quite accurate. Yeah, larger than life anyway. But we'll

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miss him for this week or whatever, but he'll be back.

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Fear not, Bobo will return. You know, it's like the

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cat that came back the very next day.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, what are we doing, Matt, Well, we got a

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lot of great feedback on the recent episode that we

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had done where we were reviewing paper that John Green

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wrote and presented at the nineteen seventy eight UBC conference

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that was included in Manlike Monsters on Trial. We talked about, oh,

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if this goes well, we shouldn't do this as a

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recurring feature to see what other classic papers or papers

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from the previous era from the Four Horsemen or that

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ilk that generation might still hold up, what things we

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would quibble with or have contentions with. And so I

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found another paper that was in a great compilation book.

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I know, it was one of the early books that

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you read that was called the Sasquatch and Other Unknown Hominids,

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And it was a paper by Grover Krantz that he

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actually presented at that same conference at the University of

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British Columbia in seventy eight. But The paper was not

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included in Manlke Monsters on Trial, but was included in

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this volume that Krantz was one of the editors of.

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So I was going through various articles there and reread

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this one, and I thought, this one is just as

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relevant today, I think, as it ever was, and so

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I thought that would be a fun one to do

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a reading and review of to see if it holds

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up in twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, you know.

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Speaker 3: And after you sent me the link to the article

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and I started reading it, I said, oh, this is

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one of the ones that really really put me on

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my path and led me here today. I remember back

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in cal State Long Beach Library when it first ran

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across Sasquatch literature of any type. I remember reading this article.

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There are certain phrases in here that just like popped

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in my mind and said, oh, that's it.

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Speaker 2: That's it. I remember that. I remember that.

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Speaker 3: I remember that, And of course I've read a lot

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of stuff anyway, don't get me wrong, But I specifically

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remember this being one of the early eliest papers that

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I read on the Sasquatch that kind of got me

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fired up about it, because there's some stuff in here

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that resonates to this day very very strongly with me,

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you know, very very formative, shall we say, you know absolutely.

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Speaker 1: There was a few positions that I was reading him

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state and I was like, oh, yeah, I've that resonates

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with me very much, and I can identify with that

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very much. And I guess we can just go through

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it like the previous paper. We just go paragraph by

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paragraph and see what holds up and what doesn't. But

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you know, one of the things when I wrote the

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Phenomenal Sasquatch, I was really trying to look at both

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of the sort of like diametrically opposed positions and see that, like, no,

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they actually have a lot in common in a lot

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of ways. And you know, when you point out the

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strengths and errors of either one, you often find yourself

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sort of like in a no man's land, because very

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often people want a very binary answer. You know, it's real,

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it's imaginary. You know it's true, it's false, and so

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if you're like, well some of it's true and some

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of its faults, a lot of people would think, oh, well,

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you're just pandering to everyone. It's like no, actually, you

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get rejected by both sides. And I've found that many

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times in many different places, not just in this subject,

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but in others. So I loved when I was rereading

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this that he opens the paper saying, quote, there are

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many people who believe there's a species of giant Harry

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hominid living wild in the forested mountains of western North America.

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There are also many who are equally convinced that no

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such animal exists, except in some people's imaginations. I'm here

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going to alienate almost everybody by attacking both positions, which

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I thought was just great.

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Speaker 2: It fantastic.

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Speaker 3: You can't be true to yourself and the sasquatch subject

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without pissing people off on both sides.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, Yeah, a lot of my favorite thinkers sort of

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occupy that space, you know, in that they sort of

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straddle to worlds and they show that like, actually the

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divide is kind of imaginary and there is a bridge

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or you know, the chain with many links in it

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linking the two sides. But they tend to be sort

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of alienated by both sides. So I was like, oh,

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it's funny that Krantz was feeling that in seventy eight,

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you know, when he wrote this, only ten years ind

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of his investigation.

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Speaker 3: Well, his next sentence says it all right there, I mean,

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his next sentence is astounding and it should be shouted

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from the mountaintops, in my opinion, go for it. Well, yeah,

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The next sentence goes on to say, after he says

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I'm here, I'm going to alien at everybody by attacking

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both positions. The next sentence says, with only a few exceptions,

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those who hold a firm opinion on this matter, either

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four or against the existence of this animal, are doing

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so without adequate knowledge. I think that holds up in

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twenty twenty six pretty well. Yeah, yeah, with the recent

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flat of the Patterson Gimlin film stuff, everybody was arguing

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this or that, and with absolutely no knowledge whatsoever. They

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had not seen the documentary that, they didn't know what

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was in it, they didn't know. All they had was rumors.

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And again, with only a few exceptions, those who hold

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a firm opinion on this matter, either for or against

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the existence of this animal, or a film or a footprint,

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whatever you know, are doing so without adequate knowledge. That

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says so much. I'm constantly pretty bent out of shape

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and not really excitable. I mean, yes, and no, ben

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out of shape means like a, you know, I'm pretty

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pissed about it and brooding about it or something, and

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that's not really the case. I just kind of shake

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my head and say, yeah, that's why I'm not a

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people person. But people who are commenting about the Freeman

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foot or footage or the footprints or any case, any

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of these cases and are so so invested in it.

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Generally speaking, most of these people have not seen the cast.

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Like so on the Freeman cast collection, I read a

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lot of stuff saying how this cast or this cast

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or this cast is fake or this event was fake.

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And to my knowledge, almost and that's being generous, almost

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nobody has actually examined the cast. Literally, they're just saying, oh,

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it's fake. Why do you say that? Well, Dehindon thought

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it was, yeah, but why do you say that? And

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they don't have an answer. They don't have an answer.

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There's always somebody else's opinion.

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Speaker 1: And I think every one of us is guilty of that.

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So I don't want to come out of gate with

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us sounding like, you know, we're castigating others, because there's

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there is undoubtedly a mountain of things in my mind

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and memory that I have a quote unquote firm opinion

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on that I just don't know enough about because either

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I've not investigated it because I'm just not that interested

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in it, or you know, if you're studying some element

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of like history or whatever the case may be in school,

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or you run across the documentary or read a reference

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in a book, like most of the time you'll go, Okay,

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well that's that, and you just move on. And if

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someone were to say, hey, what are the facts about this,

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you would just repeat that proposition that you would taken

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in and say, oh, yeah, that's it. History shows that X, Y,

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and z, and so it's like we all have, you know,

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some degree of that. So some epistemic humility is necessary

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for all of us of like, yeah, well I don't

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know enough to know what I don't know or what

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I do know for things that I haven't investigated.

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Speaker 2: But yeah.

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Speaker 1: There's another great line from Kranz's book where it's said

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something along the lines of like, if you would ask

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most people what the preferred benefits of something like the

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internal combustion engine versus the steam engine, most people would

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just go, I don't know. But if you ask people

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like is the sasquatch exist? They'd give you a very

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emotionally charged like, of course it does or it absolutely cannot,

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you know, even though they know just as little about

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that as they would about some other thing. So so yeah,

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there's we're all going to have those places where we

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have firm opinions based on inadequate knowledge, for sure.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: And you know one example where I am I'm not

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gonna say guilty, because I think it's actually a kind

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of a good thing sometimes as long as you don't

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put too much of your own self into it, as

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long as you don't identify too strongly with it. But

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an example for my own life is, you know, I

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have always been very interested in the footprints since the

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nineteen nineties, you know, started my bigfoot cast collection back

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in the nineteen nineties, you know, so I started learning

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about it and looking at literature, mostly Krantz at that time,

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until doctor Meltram published his book and then what two

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thousand and six or eight or whenever that was somewhere

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in there, and I would take their word for it.

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But now, after all these years, and having been exposed

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to so many footprints in not only casts but also

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in the ground footprints, I'm now taken their knowledge or

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that they've bestowed upon me, or their their interpretation. I

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guess I should say and then made it my own,

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because now at this point in the game, I can

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see a lot of things in the footprints, both in

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the ground and in casts that I recognize, and I've

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seen repeated examples to the point where when doctor Meldrim

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was still alive, I could bring up like, have you

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noticed this?

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Speaker 2: And there are I.

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Speaker 3: Can probably think about five or six, seven times maybe

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more that Jeff goes, you know, I have noticed that,

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and then we started talking about what we what he

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thought was going on, and then he would explain it

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in anatomical terms, you know, using like the Latin terms

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of this and that, but I would just say it

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in my language, you know, like, well, look at my hand,

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like I think it's doing this, and I'd move my

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hand in certain ways. He goes, yeah, that's because this,

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you know. And so at a certain point, I think,

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speaking as a teacher a former teacher, I think all

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good learners start off with that sort of knowledge that

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somebody else has built. You take that, you synthesize it

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into what you're doing, and then you build upon that.

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So as far as like the knowledge from other people.

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And you know that I'm a big proponent of not

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giving away your power to other people. That's really kind

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of unfair for me to say, because that's where things start,

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but unfortunately, a lot of times, for many, many, many people,

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that's also where it ends. And I think that maybe

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it should be that ball should be picked up and

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carried further.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Oh, certainly that's every one of our responsibilities and opportunities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we all start in the same spot by listening

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to somebody that we respect and believe, and then hopefully

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we kind of test that. It's like a mini version

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of the scientific process. We test their hypothesis with the

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evidence that we see to see if it stands up.

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Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.

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Will be right back at these messages.

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Speaker 1: You know, this next section. Even reading this, I sort

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of like anticipate the pushback from people. But again, these

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are Krantz's words, and he existed within, you know, a

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scientific and academic framework and hierarchy, so this is his statement.

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So you know, I might have opinions that would equally

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be based on other people's expression of their experience. But

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I don't want it to seem like I'm attacking the

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scientific establishment. But Krantz says, quote, the scientific establishment is

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overwhelmingly on record as denying any reality to the sasquatch,

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this is not surprising. Science is generally not in the

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business of investigating the unknown, but rather it is working

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out minor details of principles that are already accepted. See

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I don't I guess I could understand why he might

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have that feeling, But I do think science should generally

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be in the business of investigating the unknown. But I

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don't know. I can already like since the ruffling of

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feathers that that statement would provoke in people.

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, and no, I think that.

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Speaker 3: But when you look at academia in general, or even

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the think tank folks, you know those sort of scientists,

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because scientists don't only work in universities. When you look

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at what most of them are doing. And he did

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say science is generally not in the business of investigating

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it on Maybe that's not Maybe that's not the best

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way to phrase that sentence, because like we'll take the

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theory of gravity for example, gravity is a theory. It's

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not considered a law. Of gravity to my knowledge, as

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a theory of gravity because of what that next sentence is,

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they're still working out minor details of principles that are

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already accepted.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: Another great example is evolution, right, and I don't want

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to get into the weeds on that one, but again,

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evolution as a general whole is accepted by the scientists,

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and then there's minute details that are still being worked out,

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which is why it's a theory of evolution, right, And

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you can go down the list theory after theory after theory.

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They're still working out the kings that the super minor details.

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And I think that's largely true. And of course the

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big bold scientific discoveries like homofluiesiensis or something like that,

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that is also usually done by scientists and often done

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accidentally and sometimes on purpose, but often accidentally. This sasquatch

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subject is going to be one that's probably going to

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be done on purpose, although not necessarily it could accidentally

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be solved as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that Krantz

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probably didn't do himself many favors by having that sort

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of because he certainly was a bit of a maverick

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and a renegade, but he would be on the attack

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more so than he would be on the defense of

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his own thes Or maybe I would say he was

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attacking his you know, perceived enemies as often as he

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was defending his own thesis. As ruffled a lot of

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feathers and probably still continues to do so, because when

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I would refer to those things or allude to those

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things saying, well, according to the scientists who have pursued this,

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here the obstacles that they faced in their careers, I

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would get accused of you know, oh, you're blaming the

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scientific establishment. I'm like, no, not really, I'm trying to

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express the pattern that these other people have expressed in

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their own lives. But so maybe I'm being a little

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too cautious now just reading this. But he goes on

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to say that the sasquatch, if proven, would certainly be

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something new and previously unknown. Science has a vested interest

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in its own infallibility, So to find out it has

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completely missed something as big and potentially important as the

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sasquatch would be to admit to a certain degree of failure.

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It is easier to deny the existence of such creatures

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than to look for them. Well, that's obviously true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Having denied their existence, science then becomes obligated to refuse

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to look for them and can no longer avoid the

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issue by claiming it didn't know about the situation. And

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I do think that to some degree has held out

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to be true. Like we've talked about the circular logic,

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you know, I quote Mike Mays often because as Mike

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talked about having a hair sample that was purportedly from

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one of the big black cats, you know, the mystery

341
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black panthers of North America, trying to get people to

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analyze it, and I'm saying like, hey, what do you have?

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And he said, well, I think I have evidence of

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a black panther. Say oh, well, there's no such thing.

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And Mike would say something like, well what would it

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take for you to be convinced that there was such

347
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a thing. Oh well, I'd need to see evidence. And

348
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then he'd say, well will you look at this? And

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they're like, well, that can't be evidence because there's no

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such thing. And so I do think as a general

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broad stroke that seems to be fairly true to this

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day is that, well, once you deny the existence, it

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makes it a easier to continue to deny the existence

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than to look for it. But then also once that

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existence is denied, then you can refuse to continue looking

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for it. And you know, like he says, no longer

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avoid the issue by claiming it didn't know about the situation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And of course science is all about testing what

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you think you know to make sure it stays true.

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And scientists wouldn't like who admit that that processes could

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be flawed or maybe there's some kinks or monkey wrenches

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thrown into that somehow, you know, they would have a

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lot of egg on their face because the sasquatch thing

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is would be such a potentially important discovery. And it's

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also you know, as Kranz said in other works or

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maybe even in this article somewhere that it's it's literally

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in our own backyard. So how could you know America

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United States of America often put forth, its most advanced

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country in the world, have missed this thing that's just

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walking around, and especially that it's an animal, you know,

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like an ape or whatever. And the sciences probably think that, well,

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we could, we would have certainly got around it that

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one by Now, how can an animal have eluded us? Say, well,

375
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don't underestimate them. That's how And I do have a

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certain degree of I try to have a certain degree

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of sympathy because I could imagine someone holding the position

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that it's just impossible. Like if someone came to me

379
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and said, hey, I found god Zella's scale on the

380
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shore of this beach, and it would be like, well,

381
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I don't care how good it looks to you or

382
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what you think you have, there's no way that Godzilla

383
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exists and that you found some or you know, a track,

384
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a Godzilla track, or whatever the case may be. And

385
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so I would probably be very hard pressed to expend

386
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the time and energy to look at something that I

387
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was absolutely convinced to my core was impossible, And so

388
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I try to try to empathize and go, Okay, well,

389
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that's that's how many of these people see the sasquatch phenomena.

390
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Speaker 1: They don't see it the same way that we do.

391
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I still think we would be further along if but again,

392
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they're not necessarily obligated to entertain every idea that comes

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across their desk. That you know, someone has what they

394
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think is something of scientific value. But I'm sure it's

395
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one thing for people like myself or Mike Mays or

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you know other of us that are like citizen scientists

397
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to be frustrated by that. But I'm sure Krantz's frustration

398
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was much greater because he did have the qualified disciplinary

399
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expertise obviously, was a tenured professor, like he probably should

400
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have been taken a little bit more seriously than Joe Sixpack.

401
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Speaker 2: You know.

402
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Speaker 3: Yeah, what I would hope from scientists is it would

403
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be I guess, an analogy if that's right word, an

404
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analogy of of what I would hope to get out

405
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of scientists who are confident sasquatches aren't real, is that

406
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you know, you know what frogging is?

407
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Speaker 2: Have you ever had that?

408
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,920
Speaker 3: Frogging is a term where people end up living in

409
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your house without you knowing. No, it's a thing, It

410
00:19:25,039 --> 00:19:28,480
absolutely is a thing. Yeah, So frogging said, the act

411
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of breaking into someone's home and covertly living within their walls,

412
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usually through like a crawl space or something like that.

413
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That sort of thing. That's what frogging is. And there's

414
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a I mean, the reason I know about it is

415
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because Melissa there's a horror movie about this. Of course

416
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there is, right, And so I've saw some horror movie

417
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back into day. I can't remember what it's called about frogging,

418
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but apparently this actually happens. It's rare, of course, because

419
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how would most people would know there's a person living

420
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in their house, but they usually access the house through

421
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some crawl space or live in the attic or basement.

422
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You know, they get that sort of thing. It's a

423
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kin a squatting, but the people are actually home, you

424
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,599
know sometimes. I mean a lot of these people are.

425
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They travel for work or something, so it makes it

426
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easier for them. But I would like to think it's

427
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,599
something like that for scientists. Like if someone came up

428
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to me and said, dude, there's a frogger in your house. Man,

429
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there's somebody frogging in your house, and I would go what.

430
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But when that person after I wrote them off, I

431
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would so I would start looking around the house for

432
00:20:23,559 --> 00:20:26,079
evidence of this, like could that be true? Or some

433
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,480
dude or some woman living in my house? And I

434
00:20:29,519 --> 00:20:31,720
would look at all the nooks and crannies and start

435
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,839
exploring and looking for evidence. And I think it's the

436
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,079
same sort of thing with sasquatches or today and scientists.

437
00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:42,279
I would hope that scientists upon hearing that sasquatches might

438
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be living in your house, your backyard, your local forests,

439
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,079
that maybe they would go what now, and then start, well,

440
00:20:49,799 --> 00:20:52,359
what do other PhDs have to say about it? And

441
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,400
of course a problem with a lot of PhDs and scientists, unfortunately,

442
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,440
the ones who have written skeptical books, which I think

443
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,480
is a good thing, of course, is that they go

444
00:21:00,599 --> 00:21:04,000
to the old standbys, you know, the Bossberg tracks, which

445
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,519
I think are real, by the way, but Ivan Marx

446
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,559
was involved. He later went on to hoax and they

447
00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:10,319
hold that up as evidence that Bossburg isn't real, although

448
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,559
to be fair, d Hinden also had some concerns about that,

449
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,640
about Ivan Marx's involvement, you know, or any number of

450
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other things. You know that the skeptical folks usually go

451
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to the well, well worn trails that have already been

452
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,640
put out there by other skeptics and whatever online and

453
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,839
this put in a book, you know. But still I

454
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think the frogging analogy is an interesting one that could

455
00:21:31,799 --> 00:21:34,599
be used with the scientists say, like, you look around

456
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,880
the house, you know, there might be a candy wrapper

457
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,079
somewhere that maybe there is somebody living in your house,

458
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,200
so be careful. That is a great analogy. I'd never

459
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never heard of that, and certainly hadn't.

460
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Speaker 1: Thought about that before, but that that is a really

461
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good analogy.

462
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Speaker 3: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo.

463
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Will be right back after these messages, He continues.

464
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Speaker 1: You know, I won't read the whole next paragraph that

465
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,799
says fairly redundant to the paragraph we just read, But

466
00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:09,640
he basically says, you know, that scientific establishment that he

467
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,039
describes is made up of individual scientists, and you know

468
00:22:13,079 --> 00:22:17,119
the establishment is built out of their accumulated knowledge. But essentially,

469
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,519
any individual scientist is hard pressed to go against the

470
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accepted doctrines or the axioms of each of their disciplines.

471
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Then he moves on to say that, you know, basically,

472
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as a consequence, many major scientific breakthroughs are made by

473
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amateurs or by those who are only marginally involved in

474
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the field in question. These new ideas are first regarded

475
00:22:36,759 --> 00:22:39,599
as heresy by the establishment, but eventually many of them

476
00:22:39,599 --> 00:22:42,160
become accepted when more authorities look at them with open

477
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,440
minds or generation passes. On the other hand, it must

478
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,960
not be forgotten that the vast majority of new ideas

479
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,640
do not turn out to be true. We read about

480
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,160
those few new ideas which worked, but our history books

481
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,640
say very little about the ninety nine percent that were

482
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,799
and still are foolishness. One of the tasks of the

483
00:22:58,799 --> 00:23:02,640
scientific establishment to weed out these incorrect ideas and to

484
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,400
accept only those few which are true. The trouble is

485
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,720
that after debunking ninety nine silly ideas, it's easy to

486
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,680
get into the habit and then miss the next one

487
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:11,519
that might be right.

488
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, that's first sentence. There many major scientific

489
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,039
breakthroughs are made by amateurs or by those who are

490
00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:21,920
only marginally involved in the field in question. That's probably

491
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,160
the most important sentence of any book that I've ever

492
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,319
read in my life, because I remember reading this one

493
00:23:28,519 --> 00:23:30,640
man at the time, I was toyed around at the

494
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,480
idea of being a professional astronomer and physicist. I mean,

495
00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:36,920
I've said that story many times until Calculus two kicked

496
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,799
my ass and I said, well, I don't whatever whatever

497
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,079
Calculus two is, I don't want to do that for

498
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,480
a living, you know, because it was very, very difficult.

499
00:23:43,559 --> 00:23:44,960
I could probably do it now. I think I'm just

500
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,880
more emotionally and intellectually mature now that I was in

501
00:23:48,079 --> 00:23:51,440
but anyway, that, like many major scientific breakthroughs, were made

502
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,480
by amateurs. I mean I even read an article about

503
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,960
it a decade and a half ago that's on my website.

504
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,039
That is the most powerful sentence that I had read,

505
00:23:59,079 --> 00:24:01,599
and I didn't realize how that would change the rest

506
00:24:01,839 --> 00:24:04,920
of my life, literally the rest of my life. So

507
00:24:05,279 --> 00:24:07,279
when I saw this sentence, when you sent me the article,

508
00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:09,000
I said, oh, yeah, yeah, that's where I got that from.

509
00:24:09,079 --> 00:24:12,160
Clearly I totally remember that, totally remember that. And it's

510
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,880
true because I mentioned the astronomy and physics thing. Is

511
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,799
because the reason I mentioned the astronomy and physics thing

512
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,160
is because the vast majority of new comets, for example,

513
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,960
are discovered by amateur astronomers, people with nice telescopes or

514
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,559
even small telescopes in their backyard or out in the

515
00:24:29,559 --> 00:24:33,039
woods or something in dark skies scanning the horizon. Because

516
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,759
as Krantz kind of alludes to, you know in this article,

517
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,039
professional astronomers, you know, they're on telescopes, like the giant

518
00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:43,599
telescopes that are very very expensive, and they were using

519
00:24:43,599 --> 00:24:47,960
their grant money to specifically study one particular thing, perhaps

520
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,200
a certain star or galaxy or nebula or something, and

521
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,440
they're spending their time and grant money on that telescope

522
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,799
studying that one thing, trying to work out minute details

523
00:24:58,799 --> 00:25:02,799
about it. Essentially, they don't have the luxury perhaps of

524
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,720
scanning the horizon for unknown fuzzy objects, you know, which

525
00:25:06,839 --> 00:25:09,799
end up to be new comments, you know, because there's plenty.

526
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,359
I mean, there's there's probably billions of comets, you know,

527
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,240
trillions of commets in the universe. But and every once

528
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,400
whilst one cruises by that no one has ever cataloged before.

529
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,720
And it's only the people out there who are having

530
00:25:21,759 --> 00:25:25,920
fun with their telescope and sometimes trying to find these scenes.

531
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,200
Because there's a couple of amateuristronomers that have discovered multiple

532
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,920
new comments because that's their thing, and sometimes they were

533
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,519
discovered on accident. And that's exactly the same as the

534
00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:37,240
bigfoot thing, exactly the same. When I read that article,

535
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,039
I realized, well, I'm a scientifically minded guy. I like

536
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,119
science in general. I'm kind of a nerd, and I

537
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,799
like going to the woods. This is something that I

538
00:25:44,839 --> 00:25:48,039
can contribute to. This subject is something that I might

539
00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:51,440
be able to participate in and maybe slight maybe make

540
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:56,480
a difference someday, and boy, that changed the clearly changed

541
00:25:56,519 --> 00:25:57,960
the rest of my life in a way that I

542
00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,279
had no idea about.

543
00:26:00,079 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: You know, one thing I think that has changed a

544
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,319
lot since Krantz wrote this in nineteen seventy eight when

545
00:26:05,319 --> 00:26:07,559
he says, you know, we hear very little about the

546
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,759
ninety nine percent of ideas that were and are foolish,

547
00:26:11,799 --> 00:26:15,200
and that you know that history doesn't record those things. Well,

548
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,839
now there's we've removed many steps of you know, gatekeepers,

549
00:26:20,079 --> 00:26:23,000
which is very beneficial. That's the reason that we have

550
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,480
this podcast and can communicate directly to people. But everything

551
00:26:27,519 --> 00:26:29,359
has a cost and a benefit, and so yeah, there's

552
00:26:29,799 --> 00:26:32,920
right now, you know, you're you're always swimming in a

553
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,960
sea if you're in social media or quote unquote independent media, YouTube, podcast,

554
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,960
et cetera, is that all new ideas are out into

555
00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:45,319
the arena, and some take hold because they're more outrageous

556
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,960
or entertaining or captivating, or they reach into a certain

557
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,680
part of us that we respond to. And so yeah,

558
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,480
I think historically he's right that like, yeah, well, you know,

559
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,839
we only remember the few new ideas that worked out.

560
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,799
But right now it's like, think about how many theories hypotheses,

561
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,640
conspiracy theories, on and on that are massive that you

562
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,559
know from channels or podcasters or whatever. They have huge audiences,

563
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,039
and you know, time will tell which ones are correct

564
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,559
or incorrect. But I think his metric that you know,

565
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,640
ninety nine percent of them will not be correct. But yeah,

566
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,359
that's that has definitely changed significantly. Is that I would

567
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,400
almost argue that there's a larger audience for the you know,

568
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,640
incorrect or foolish new ideas than there are for the

569
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,599
correct ideas. But only time will tell what things floating

570
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,200
around now will eventually be confirmed and then held to

571
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,039
be true for decades or maybe centuries. We won't know

572
00:27:39,079 --> 00:27:42,480
in our lifetime. But that has definitely changed from the

573
00:27:42,559 --> 00:27:44,160
nineteen seventies until now.

574
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

575
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, the information age has changed everything, of course. And

576
00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:51,960
the difficulty and I think the importance of the scientific

577
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,240
process now is to apply it to the vast amount

578
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,079
of information that we're bombarded with constantly. That does that

579
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,720
make sense? That does this hold true with what I

580
00:28:01,759 --> 00:28:03,960
personally observe? In other words, does it hold up to

581
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:04,480
the evidence?

582
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:04,839
Speaker 2: Right?

583
00:28:05,559 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 3: And like Krant said, like most of stuff doesn't, which

584
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:10,920
is fine too, you know, And at the same time,

585
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,079
a lot of that stuff. When I when I read this,

586
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,400
the kind of reminded me about is that I had

587
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,920
somebody criticized. He's criticizing me not that long ago. I

588
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,279
forget on what platform. But it doesn't really matter. I

589
00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:25,200
guess that every time I go out, I find something,

590
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,279
But that's not true at all. I think it was

591
00:28:28,319 --> 00:28:30,400
a comment on one of my videos or something. It

592
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,680
probably the public YouTube because that's where most of the

593
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,240
trolls live. That wouldn't be inside my membership in the

594
00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:37,480
museum or anything like that. So I think I put

595
00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:38,960
something out and they say, every time you go out,

596
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,599
I can't believe blah blah blah, this and that or

597
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,000
whatever he's you know, And I said, well, that's because

598
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,240
I don't make videos about more than nothing happens, you know,

599
00:28:46,319 --> 00:28:49,000
But why would I put that out right? So you

600
00:28:49,039 --> 00:28:51,559
don't see the eight times in a row I go,

601
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,480
you know, one or two days a week and I

602
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,079
don't find anything at all, And then that one time,

603
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:57,880
like every two or three months, I make a video

604
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,039
out of and he's always finding stuff. No, you just

605
00:29:01,559 --> 00:29:03,559
I'm not going to bore you with, you know, eight

606
00:29:03,559 --> 00:29:05,880
to ten hour trips to the Woods, where I find

607
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,799
absolutely nothing. You know, that's not what people want to see. Oh,

608
00:29:09,839 --> 00:29:12,680
I definitely understand that. I do think the difference in

609
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,920
today's world was, you know, Krant said, the trouble is,

610
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,759
after debunking ninety nine silly ideas, it's easy to get

611
00:29:17,759 --> 00:29:18,640
into the habit.

612
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: And miss the next one that might be right. And

613
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,960
today it'd be like, the trouble is that after debunking,

614
00:29:24,039 --> 00:29:26,920
you know, ninety nine million silly ideas, because that's kind

615
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,000
of what you're confronted with on a monthly or yearly

616
00:29:30,039 --> 00:29:34,519
basis online, you know. So so, But at least he

617
00:29:34,559 --> 00:29:36,359
does seem to have a little sympathy there, like, hey,

618
00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:39,279
I understand why they they gloss over some of these.

619
00:29:40,079 --> 00:29:42,319
He continues to say, the more unlikely a new thing

620
00:29:42,359 --> 00:29:44,599
may seem to be, the more the more proof is

621
00:29:44,599 --> 00:29:47,559
required for its acceptance. You know, he lists things like

622
00:29:47,559 --> 00:29:50,680
the sasquatch is more unexpected than something like a new

623
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,759
species of chipmunk, for instance, And so he leans into

624
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,640
which he will lean into for the remainder of his career,

625
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,559
which you'd already lean into a bit by that point.

626
00:30:00,559 --> 00:30:03,759
But the proof required in this case is an actual specimen.

627
00:30:03,839 --> 00:30:08,000
Nothing less will suffice. The scientific establishment rightly demands that

628
00:30:08,039 --> 00:30:10,920
this proof be produced before it can be taken seriously.

629
00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:15,039
But the establishment also refuses to look for this specimen,

630
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,960
and even goes so far as to actively discourage those

631
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,240
who would look for it. I think that's that's definitely

632
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,440
how true. It's not like any institution has taken up

633
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,319
that charge yet, despite a growing body of evidence that

634
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,480
to some people might be more of the same as

635
00:30:31,599 --> 00:30:34,599
was on offer in Krantz's day. You know, more examples

636
00:30:34,599 --> 00:30:41,240
of tracks, more examples of anomalous hair, more testimonial anecdotal claims,

637
00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:45,400
more audio recordings, et cetera. But nonetheless thereas more, even

638
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,400
though it might be quote unquote more of the same.

639
00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we've spoken at length on the podcast here

640
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,319
about an actual specimen. Nothing less will suffice. And I

641
00:30:55,359 --> 00:30:59,039
still do think that's true. Although the pathway to the specimen,

642
00:30:59,079 --> 00:31:01,960
as we've mentioned before or has certainly become a little

643
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,559
bit better paved. You know, for example, DNA. You know,

644
00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:06,480
we talk about that quite a bit, you know, with

645
00:31:06,599 --> 00:31:09,599
RBS situation and the project and everything. So DNA, which

646
00:31:09,599 --> 00:31:11,200
actually is a piece of the body, of course, don't

647
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,720
forget that it's a part of the body, you can

648
00:31:13,799 --> 00:31:16,039
use that, but that would just pave the way to

649
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,000
actually collecting a specimen at some point. You know, we've

650
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,359
talked about that at nauseum.

651
00:31:20,359 --> 00:31:23,319
Speaker 1: Of course, he goes on to say research funds are

652
00:31:23,359 --> 00:31:27,359
given to projects which are certain to produce usable results. Unfortunately,

653
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,559
sasquatch hunting works against extreme odds, and here negative results

654
00:31:31,599 --> 00:31:35,279
are of no value, which I think is completely relevant

655
00:31:35,319 --> 00:31:38,279
because you know, in many other scientific disciplines, like whatever

656
00:31:38,359 --> 00:31:40,359
results you get, even if they're not the results you're

657
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,279
looking for, do have some kind of value, especially if

658
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:45,680
you were, you know, testing for you know, a certain

659
00:31:45,759 --> 00:31:48,640
chemical compound to see if it has this effect or

660
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,519
that effect, you know, like maybe a medicinal or health

661
00:31:51,559 --> 00:31:55,079
benefit or something like that. But I do think the

662
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,680
research fund the argument about research funds being given to projects,

663
00:32:00,279 --> 00:32:02,839
there was a I've heard it said a few different ways,

664
00:32:02,839 --> 00:32:06,559
but a rebuttal to Sagan's you know, extraordinary claims require

665
00:32:06,559 --> 00:32:11,119
extraordinary evidence being that, Yeah, well, extraordinary evidence requires either

666
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:16,559
extraordinary luck or extraordinary investigation, and extraordinary investigation typically requires

667
00:32:16,559 --> 00:32:20,839
extraordinary funding. And I think all that's fairly true. But

668
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,640
then I've heard other people say no, extraordinary claims require evidence, period,

669
00:32:26,119 --> 00:32:29,119
you know, not necessarily extraordinary evidence. So I don't think

670
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,839
there is any sort of a consensus about that yet.

671
00:32:31,839 --> 00:32:34,680
But I don't think anything he said in that particular

672
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,039
paragraph has changed very much or would require an update

673
00:32:38,079 --> 00:32:40,200
to make sense in twenty twenty six.

674
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,759
Speaker 3: Not to the question he's asking, because his question is

675
00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:46,680
a binary answer, yes or no. Is the Sasquatch real?

676
00:32:47,119 --> 00:32:49,640
And I'm at that sort of thirty thousand foot level,

677
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:56,000
that large landscape overlook there, that's where negative results have

678
00:32:56,079 --> 00:32:58,559
no value. Like you go looking and you don't find

679
00:32:58,599 --> 00:33:01,920
one that negative result has and no real value because

680
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,920
maybe the Sasquatch, if it is real, was not there

681
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,279
or around there at that time. But I will say

682
00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:10,160
that when when you start zooming in at the smaller

683
00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:14,440
level questions, the more minutia. Again, like what we referred

684
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,920
to earlier, I do think negative We all know that

685
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,839
negative results do actually hold value. Like if I'm trying,

686
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,759
like in my research areas, if I'm trying to find

687
00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:24,720
when the Sasquatches are there, and I go there and

688
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,559
they're not there, and I don't find sign of them,

689
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,160
that is actually is of value.

690
00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:29,079
Speaker 2: So I think on.

691
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:35,039
Speaker 3: Binary gross overview questions like is the sasquatch real? Then yeah,

692
00:33:35,079 --> 00:33:37,279
he is correct, But I would only take issue with

693
00:33:37,359 --> 00:33:40,559
that last sentence there money more zoomed in level.

694
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,079
Speaker 1: I see what you're saying. Yeah, I mean I took

695
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,279
that as in, like, you know, if you're testing for

696
00:33:45,359 --> 00:33:49,400
some other natural phenomena or testing again, let's say like

697
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,680
a chemical compound and its effects, you know, whatever effects

698
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,480
are produced, even if their negative results have some value

699
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,400
maybe to some other medical intervention or to some other

700
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,079
field or sub discipline of the same field. Whereas like

701
00:34:03,119 --> 00:34:06,039
if you're looking for something that you find no trace of,

702
00:34:06,279 --> 00:34:08,000
it's like, yeah, well, we could have already told you

703
00:34:08,039 --> 00:34:11,079
that the force was only full of squirrels, bears, and deer.

704
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,320
Like you know, you're you're we funded you, and like

705
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:18,159
what you produced that negative results is of no value

706
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:20,880
to like, we can't use that data for our fields.

707
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,679
You know, it's not going to teach us anymore or

708
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:24,840
less about squirrels, bears or deer. You know what I mean?

709
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 3: Mm hm yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's a level of questioning

710
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,719
there yes or no question, as opposed to an exploration

711
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,079
of a more subtle question that might have a more

712
00:34:34,079 --> 00:34:39,280
subtle answer, stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with

713
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,079
clipp and Bogo will be right back after these messages.

714
00:34:48,599 --> 00:34:50,559
Speaker 1: And I do think these next paragraphs we don't have

715
00:34:50,599 --> 00:34:53,400
to get granular about. But he he sort of lays

716
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,159
out like there's a large amount of real and imaginary

717
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:59,599
evidence presently available which supports the existence of the Sasquatch,

718
00:34:59,599 --> 00:35:02,360
but fortunately much of it is not reproducible because it's

719
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,280
in the mind of observers. He talks a bit about,

720
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,400
you know, the physical evidence being photographs or plaster casts,

721
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,880
which are one step removed from the original, and so

722
00:35:12,119 --> 00:35:15,800
the authenticity can and should be questioned. No eyewitnesses could

723
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,159
be questioned, et cetera, but accounts or one step away

724
00:35:19,199 --> 00:35:21,559
from reality. But I think the more important thing is

725
00:35:21,599 --> 00:35:24,760
that he says few scientists have been willing even to

726
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,920
look at or listen to the available information. Of those

727
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,119
who are willing, only a small fraction have had the

728
00:35:30,159 --> 00:35:33,000
opportunity to see the footprints or to talk to witnesses.

729
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,320
Mostly this is because they fear their scientific reputations would

730
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,719
be damaged if it became known that they were even

731
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,599
interested in such things, let alone investigating them. I do

732
00:35:42,679 --> 00:35:44,360
think that holds up to be true because how many

733
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,519
people have we communicated with who are like, hey, can

734
00:35:47,519 --> 00:35:50,039
you leave my name off the email please, or like hey,

735
00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:52,639
I love the podcast, please don't publish my name. And

736
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:54,599
I do think that there is that fear of like

737
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,920
even expressing an interest. I mean, how many times have

738
00:35:58,039 --> 00:36:01,800
you if you're entertaining any idea because it captivates you,

739
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,320
or you're like, well, maybe there's something here that you know,

740
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,239
if you were reading a book about a subject or

741
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,079
watching a documentary about a subject, that a friend of

742
00:36:09,079 --> 00:36:11,119
yours or somebody might walk in and see that and go,

743
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,239
oh my god, you believe that crap. It's like, hey, wait,

744
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,559
just because I'm looking at it doesn't mean I accept

745
00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:18,960
it wholesale, doesn't mean I believe it all. I'm just

746
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,559
looking at it, you know, I'm just paying attention to

747
00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:22,960
see what's there, you know what I mean?

748
00:36:23,519 --> 00:36:24,159
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah.

749
00:36:24,159 --> 00:36:26,119
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of fun I kind of put

750
00:36:26,119 --> 00:36:28,559
all those into like a thought experiment, you know, like

751
00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:30,199
like I don't think Atlantis was a thing, but like

752
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,480
it's a fun thought experiment. And maybe by examining that

753
00:36:33,519 --> 00:36:35,760
thought experiment, you can find oh yeah, that came from

754
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,800
this or this particular mythology or whatever, and maybe there's

755
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:39,840
some truth to that mythology.

756
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: How did that mythology arise?

757
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 3: That's the sort of thing that I think is fun

758
00:36:43,039 --> 00:36:45,360
to look at, even in things I don't believe in.

759
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:47,960
That's how I got to the Bigfoot thing anyway, Like

760
00:36:48,039 --> 00:36:49,400
it's like, well, that would be fun to look into,

761
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,800
even though I what's so sure there was anything to it.

762
00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:54,079
And then the deeper I looked, I realized, oh my god,

763
00:36:54,079 --> 00:36:57,280
there's actually very very sound same things involved in this,

764
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,400
not just what you know TV or know that sort

765
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,280
of at the time, because this is back in the nineties,

766
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,960
TV was saying sometimes you know, crystal skulls and all

767
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:05,679
that kind of stuff.

768
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: Indeed, so I think that attitude still holds kind of true,

769
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:10,920
and we are lucky that there are more and more

770
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,360
scientists getting interested. But like we've talked about on this

771
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,559
podcast before, I think people from outside of the biological

772
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:23,079
anthropological realms might have an easier time. You know, if

773
00:37:23,119 --> 00:37:26,599
someone is like a studying folkloristics or something from the

774
00:37:26,639 --> 00:37:30,039
social sciences, or you know, from a psychological perspective, they

775
00:37:30,079 --> 00:37:31,960
can say, hey, we're not really trying to answer the

776
00:37:32,039 --> 00:37:33,840
question of whether such a thing exists. We want to

777
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,400
understand the effect that it has on observers or the

778
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,760
effect that it has on claimants, you know, And so

779
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,199
that doesn't quite get into the like is it real

780
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,119
or is it not real? Question? And so I still

781
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:51,360
we do get outreached from primatologists, biological anthropologists, wildlife biologists,

782
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,639
et cetera. But usually they're like, leave my last name

783
00:37:53,679 --> 00:37:56,519
out please, So I understand like that, I think that

784
00:37:56,639 --> 00:37:57,559
is still going on.

785
00:37:58,079 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly it was punished, and I mean maybe not directly,

786
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:06,320
but indirectly punished for his interest in the subject. Which

787
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,039
is crazy that you're gonna be punished for your interest

788
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,840
in a question. You know that last sentence. Expertise in

789
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,320
one field does not make one an authority across the board.

790
00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:18,440
I love that. I love that question, and in a

791
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,480
way it almost it stings me though, a little bit,

792
00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:22,119
because I'm not an expert in anything.

793
00:38:22,599 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 2: Really.

794
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 3: That's why I became an elementary school teacher. I found

795
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,880
myself not really really great at any one particular thing,

796
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,360
but pretty good at most things that I tried, Like

797
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,239
if I was interested in I got pretty good at it.

798
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,280
But I wasn't an expert, you know, like guitar playing

799
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,360
for example. Yeah, I've got a degree in guitar. I

800
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,480
can play, I can sit in with pretty much anybody.

801
00:38:39,679 --> 00:38:41,480
But I'm not a great great player, and I ever

802
00:38:41,559 --> 00:38:44,079
will be. But I'm pretty good. I'm good enough, and

803
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,400
I feel that that is my particular strength, which is

804
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,440
why I when at elementary school teaching, it makes sense

805
00:38:49,599 --> 00:38:52,199
multiple subjects, you know, you teach multiple subjects, and I

806
00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:54,119
think that same thing I bring to the big foot

807
00:38:54,159 --> 00:38:56,239
field as well, where whereas you do have to kind

808
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,840
of defer to experts in various things. Whether it's stock

809
00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:02,760
Jeff Meldrum, who was literally an expert on foot anatomy.

810
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,960
I think he's a great jumping off point to see

811
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:08,800
if what he says holds up, because his interpretation of

812
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,159
the foot structure is very very good. Right, Or Bill

813
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,400
Muns on creature suits. I've never made an ape suit before.

814
00:39:15,559 --> 00:39:17,199
I'm going to defer to Bill Muns on that one

815
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,320
and see if it holds up and does what he

816
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:21,719
says make sense for example?

817
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: Right?

818
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 3: But yeah, so that last sentence actually kind of resonated

819
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,039
with me, not only because I'm not an expert in anything,

820
00:39:29,519 --> 00:39:31,599
but I'm okay, across the board. You know, I know

821
00:39:31,599 --> 00:39:33,079
a little bit about a lot of different things.

822
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: So what's very useful to have a foot in both

823
00:39:37,159 --> 00:39:39,280
places if you can help it. You know, not that

824
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,920
there's just two places, but broadly speaking from my own experience,

825
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,400
if you looked at the psychological social sciences and or

826
00:39:47,559 --> 00:39:51,320
maybe even like the humanity's realm, you know, whether it's

827
00:39:51,519 --> 00:39:56,800
studying mythology, focalistics, social psychology, psychology, et cetera, et cetera,

828
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:02,679
and then the life sciences realm you know, biology, physical anthropology, ecology,

829
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,000
et cetera. There's very few people that straddle both of

830
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,039
those worlds. And so when you see debates between those people,

831
00:40:09,079 --> 00:40:12,719
because that's sort of the classic argument is like the

832
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,679
cultural anthropologist versus the physical anthropologists or biologists, you know,

833
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,480
where it's saying like, hey, these are just the elements

834
00:40:19,519 --> 00:40:22,719
of folklore, these are just mythological figures, These are the

835
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,800
product of you know, archetypal figures, et cetera. And so

836
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:30,679
they will see in the vast array of data, you know,

837
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,719
they have a certain set of lenses on that sort

838
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,679
of filter everything out except that which is relevant to

839
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,679
their field. Right, so they see a whole host of

840
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,280
things that are completely the product or the consequence or

841
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:48,079
the manifestation of psychological processes, folkloristics, things that do have

842
00:40:48,199 --> 00:40:51,800
like mythological origins or at least spread through like mythological

843
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,320
means and carry with them mythological motifs and themes and

844
00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:00,199
tropes versus the biologists is sort of the opposite when

845
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,119
you see those people debate very often, like one of

846
00:41:03,119 --> 00:41:05,039
them will get the other one into a corner that

847
00:41:05,079 --> 00:41:07,920
they don't understand well and throttle them. So it's easy

848
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,800
for you know, a meldrum to get someone like that

849
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,280
in a corner and describe the inferred foot morphology or

850
00:41:14,679 --> 00:41:17,440
certain aspects of like the evolution of bipedalism or the

851
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,159
evolution of humans and non human primates, and it's all

852
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,119
basically Greek to the other, you know, expositor of their field,

853
00:41:25,159 --> 00:41:28,679
and then vice versa. So trying to say, like, well,

854
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:33,079
can I have something of a grasp on like both cannons,

855
00:41:33,199 --> 00:41:37,000
both bodies of literature, I'm trying to I'm certainly not

856
00:41:37,039 --> 00:41:39,400
an expert in any of it, you know, I'm trying

857
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:40,880
my best to read as much as I can and

858
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,039
grasp it and take in as much, but again, like

859
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,800
one and a half semesters of community college and that's

860
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,159
about it. But I do think that's a really helpful

861
00:41:48,159 --> 00:41:50,360
thing to try to be as much a generalist as possible,

862
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,719
because what I see is a lot of consilience. I

863
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,360
see like, oh, these sides actually agree with each other

864
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,440
in a lot of ways. They're just they use different

865
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,320
nomenclature and they're looking at the same thing from different angles.

866
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,920
But there is a lot of agreement. And that's just

867
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:05,840
a helpful thing to do, is to try to not

868
00:42:06,039 --> 00:42:09,119
just exist in one corner, or at least be dragged

869
00:42:09,119 --> 00:42:10,840
out of that corner into a corner that you don't

870
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,119
understand without you know, you want to walk into that

871
00:42:14,159 --> 00:42:16,079
corner of your own volition and make sense of it

872
00:42:16,119 --> 00:42:16,880
if you can help it.

873
00:42:17,559 --> 00:42:18,159
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

874
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 1: I love this next part. We'll see if this holds

875
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,679
true in your experience.

876
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 3: Before you go on. Before you go on, don't we

877
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,559
have a robo boba that says yep, so yeah, but

878
00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:29,880
we should pipe that in every once in a while.

879
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 2: It'll be funny, for sure.

880
00:42:33,119 --> 00:42:35,039
Speaker 1: I love this next paragraph, So you can tell me

881
00:42:35,079 --> 00:42:38,239
if this holds true in your opinion in these days.

882
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,559
But he says the true believers are also generally as

883
00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:44,920
uninformed as the skeptics. Reading a few books and articles

884
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:49,159
presenting a favorable view hardly qualifies one as being knowledgeable

885
00:42:49,199 --> 00:42:52,800
on the subject Sasquash enthusiasts are notorious for the way

886
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,400
they accept and repeat stories without any attempt at verification.

887
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,119
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely absolutely, And of course social media amplifies that

888
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:05,159
as well, not only in the spreading of perhaps misinformation

889
00:43:05,199 --> 00:43:07,199
that people can grab onto and say is true, but

890
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:11,000
like just recently, I saw somebody was defending the Patterson

891
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,400
Gimlin film online and they totally misquoted the number of

892
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,519
tracks that were documented at the scene, for example. And

893
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,760
so people sometimes take little things and they amplify it

894
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,119
nowadays on social media to show off like something I guess,

895
00:43:26,159 --> 00:43:28,639
I don't know. There's just so many examples of It's

896
00:43:28,679 --> 00:43:31,719
so so, so many examples of this where people think

897
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:33,960
something is true about it but they're actually incorrect, and

898
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,039
they just keep repeating the stories, and then of course

899
00:43:36,079 --> 00:43:37,880
somebody else picks it up. Oh so and so said this,

900
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,480
and they keep repeating the stories, keep repeating the stories

901
00:43:40,519 --> 00:43:43,400
without going to either the primary sources or checking the

902
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,119
evidence for themselves. And that makes sense. I feel like

903
00:43:46,119 --> 00:43:48,039
I'm meandering, but I'm trying to get to a point.

904
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 2: I don't think I'm.

905
00:43:48,679 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: Noting that definitely makes sense, and we see that happening

906
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,920
all the time, and you know, I try my best.

907
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,519
I think we all do, but there's plenty of times

908
00:43:56,559 --> 00:43:59,639
that things come up spontaneously that I haven't read about

909
00:43:59,679 --> 00:44:03,199
or thought about in you know, sometimes months, sometimes years,

910
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,119
and I just think it's as in my experience, Like

911
00:44:07,159 --> 00:44:09,199
I always try to say, look as I understand it,

912
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,239
if I remember correctly, I think it's this, but you

913
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,280
might want to go double check that. And to me,

914
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,199
it's just that simple, rather than saying like, oh, it's undeniably,

915
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,679
it's conclusively, you know. And I think we do see

916
00:44:21,679 --> 00:44:23,519
a lot of that, And it's a human tendency because

917
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,000
you might have a certainty and you want other people

918
00:44:26,039 --> 00:44:28,679
to arrive at the same certainty, and so you use

919
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,119
language to influence their degree of certainty. But like, it's

920
00:44:32,119 --> 00:44:34,760
funny because you mentioned the like, we're still in the

921
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:39,559
midst of this Patterson Gimblin debacle, and the documentary covering

922
00:44:39,639 --> 00:44:41,679
this thing hasn't been released yet, and so only a

923
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,599
couple of people within the Sasquatch community have seen it.

924
00:44:45,079 --> 00:44:46,920
And so you know, Krantz goes on to say, here,

925
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,280
because you're talking about people repeating stories without an attempt

926
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,159
at verification. So Krantz says, quote, I know one investigator

927
00:44:53,159 --> 00:44:56,000
who insists on two accounts of each siding, but it's

928
00:44:56,039 --> 00:44:58,320
satisfied if both of them heard about it from the

929
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,679
same source. My own experien suggest that the probability of

930
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,360
truth of each account is cut in half for every

931
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,360
human it passes through. What a direct eyewitness tells me

932
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,880
is only fifty percent probable. If I hear it from

933
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,719
an intermediary, its likelihood drops to twenty five percent. Third

934
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,320
person accounts are wrong seven times out of eight, and

935
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,400
so on. Many believers paid no attention to this problem

936
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,559
of lowering probability of truth. And I've seen that play out.

937
00:45:22,639 --> 00:45:26,199
And like one of the people who saw the documentary

938
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,719
and it's he gives a very interesting account because he

939
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,400
had gone to a screening of the documentary there in

940
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,639
Austin at south By Southwest and then went home and

941
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,280
recounted to the camera like, here's what I remember from

942
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,480
what I just saw. So I always think, well, yeah,

943
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,280
if you're gonna if you're going to take his recollection

944
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,559
his opinion of what he just saw. That's the place

945
00:45:45,559 --> 00:45:47,559
to go to, because that's as fresh as it gets.

946
00:45:48,159 --> 00:45:50,079
And lots of people have seen that video. But then

947
00:45:50,119 --> 00:45:52,159
I'll see, now that it's been whatever a week or

948
00:45:52,199 --> 00:45:55,960
a week and a half, people saying, well, this guy said,

949
00:45:56,079 --> 00:45:59,599
and then they'll they have this much more elaborate and

950
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,360
detail tailed, hyper elaborate version where it's like, wait a minute,

951
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,599
he didn't say all those things, and so you're not

952
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,239
doing him any favors by attributing things to him that

953
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,679
he didn't say. And also you're not doing yourself any

954
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,000
favors by you know, exaggerating and embellishing, even though I

955
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,440
don't even think that's quite intentional. It's like, you know,

956
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,519
they're hearing sort of what they wanted to hear, and

957
00:46:18,559 --> 00:46:21,519
then people take that third person's version and go, yeah, well,

958
00:46:21,519 --> 00:46:23,960
the documentary says this is that like wait a minute,

959
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,400
First of all, you haven't seen the documentary. If you

960
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,360
wanted a second hand source, go to the guy's original

961
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,519
video made thirty minutes later. Not a post from someone

962
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:38,000
who saw the original video last week and has you know,

963
00:46:38,199 --> 00:46:41,239
imagined what it might represent for a week and then

964
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,559
posted an elaborate version, you know what I mean. So

965
00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:47,320
that is definitely a pervasive problem, probably in this and

966
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,719
every single other area of human interest.

967
00:46:52,639 --> 00:46:55,639
Speaker 3: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and

968
00:46:55,679 --> 00:47:04,960
Bobo will be right back after these messages. Yeah, And

969
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:06,599
when I read this, of course, I realized, Oh, this

970
00:47:06,679 --> 00:47:09,400
is a far more elegant way to put my rather

971
00:47:09,519 --> 00:47:12,119
brutish and clumsy statement of like I don't trust what

972
00:47:12,119 --> 00:47:15,719
people say, you know, because that's two bull in the

973
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,400
china shop, you know, And I tend that direction anyway.

974
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:20,840
I tend to be a bull in the china shop,

975
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,400
and I'm not very nuanced in what I say sometimes,

976
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,480
you know. But this way, like, oh yeah, direct witness

977
00:47:27,519 --> 00:47:28,920
stills me. It's fifty percent probable.

978
00:47:29,119 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 2: I love it.

979
00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 3: I'm not sure the fifty percent is accurate or not

980
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,239
doesn't really matter really, but the fact that it drops

981
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,039
in credibility with every step between you and the actual occurrence.

982
00:47:38,119 --> 00:47:40,920
Let's say, like a witness, for example, seese a Sasquatch.

983
00:47:41,159 --> 00:47:43,960
I often talk about the filters that those people saw

984
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,519
it through, the cultural filters, the language filters, the environmental

985
00:47:47,559 --> 00:47:50,639
filters and whatnot, and then they convey what they saw

986
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,199
to me. I have to take all those filters in mind,

987
00:47:53,199 --> 00:47:56,000
because I have my own filters as well, So all

988
00:47:56,079 --> 00:47:59,679
the actual sighting itself has passed through all these different

989
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,840
filters on the witnesses side and then the linguistic side

990
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,039
conveying that information to me, and then passing through my

991
00:48:05,079 --> 00:48:08,519
own filters as well, because we all have these filters

992
00:48:08,639 --> 00:48:11,400
in front of our eyes that we perceive reality through.

993
00:48:11,639 --> 00:48:13,599
And I'm trying to see the reality of what this

994
00:48:13,679 --> 00:48:16,199
person observed, right, I mean, I just love the way

995
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,280
that Krantz said it. So, yeah, somebody tells me something.

996
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,800
It's he says fifty percent probable, which kind of to

997
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,360
me suggests like if he's lying or not or something

998
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,480
like that. But I like the I don't think that's

999
00:48:26,519 --> 00:48:29,360
what he meant, but that's what the language suggests. I

1000
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,639
do think that is fifty percent accurate, you know, like

1001
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,280
that that's a squishy number that we can kind of

1002
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,559
hold on to. I like that a lot, And then

1003
00:48:37,559 --> 00:48:40,199
if somebody else says something in the meantime, then that

1004
00:48:40,599 --> 00:48:41,880
drops another fifty percent.

1005
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: So the next paragraph, we don't have to read the

1006
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,079
whole thing. I think this would be the one major quibble,

1007
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,079
but he had said that people gathered stories about by

1008
00:48:50,119 --> 00:48:52,760
peterle Harry monsters from almost all parts of the world

1009
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,000
under the mistake and impression that this strengthens the argument

1010
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,800
for their existence, and he says actually does the opposite.

1011
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,480
The more widespread land animal is claimed to be, the

1012
00:49:01,559 --> 00:49:04,119
less likely it is to be real. And I think

1013
00:49:04,159 --> 00:49:06,920
the thing I would quibble with there is that the

1014
00:49:07,119 --> 00:49:11,320
old idea that they are all the same species. For example,

1015
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,079
what people describe in terms of the almas and the almasti,

1016
00:49:14,199 --> 00:49:17,000
which seems to be altogether different, whether it's you know,

1017
00:49:17,039 --> 00:49:20,360
a real animal or a folkloristic thing is man sized,

1018
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,440
you know, visible like a longer neck like a human,

1019
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,039
has much more like a human than a very large,

1020
00:49:26,079 --> 00:49:29,119
powerful ape. But it's always referred to as like the

1021
00:49:29,199 --> 00:49:32,960
Russian Bigfoot, the Soviet sasquatch, and on and on and on,

1022
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,159
where it's like they're not really describing the same thing

1023
00:49:35,199 --> 00:49:39,360
anymore than you would, you know, describe a cheetah and

1024
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,400
an African lion and a mountain lion as a tiger

1025
00:49:43,519 --> 00:49:47,079
collectively to go, well, tigers couldn't exist in all those places.

1026
00:49:47,079 --> 00:49:49,320
It's like, well, I mean they're big cats, but that's

1027
00:49:49,519 --> 00:49:52,119
about where it ends. You know, They're not really the

1028
00:49:52,159 --> 00:49:54,639
same thing. And to me, that's probably the basis of

1029
00:49:54,679 --> 00:49:57,920
this argument of Krantz's. It's like, well, the sasquatch, you know,

1030
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,280
quote quote unquote sasquatch couldn't not possibly live in all

1031
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,519
these places, Like he says, some reputable scientists would study

1032
00:50:05,519 --> 00:50:08,400
a possible primate in North America and parts of Eurasia,

1033
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,440
but when you throw in South America, Africa and Australia

1034
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,960
for good measure, they will back off. I don't think

1035
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:17,480
he's differentiating between something like the Iran pindeck and the

1036
00:50:17,519 --> 00:50:20,440
Almas and the Sasquatches, being like, oh, these are different

1037
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:21,760
things in different places.

1038
00:50:22,519 --> 00:50:25,199
Speaker 3: No, although in his book he does give an nod

1039
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,880
to the the iring pindeck and Sadapa and whatever as

1040
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,000
a different sort of thing altogether. But nowadays, with the

1041
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:37,239
larger context of the multiple species hypothesis of Hominin's, you know,

1042
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,519
like this makes a lot more sense, you know, Sanderson

1043
00:50:39,599 --> 00:50:42,880
basically the first book, it's become full circle now to Sanderson,

1044
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,400
where he's being kind of acknowledged by some at least

1045
00:50:46,519 --> 00:50:48,320
as being yeah, you're kind of on the right track.

1046
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:52,039
All these different things do or could exist, I guess

1047
00:50:52,159 --> 00:50:53,679
is a better way to say it throughout the world,

1048
00:50:54,039 --> 00:50:58,960
especially with this idea of relatominoids that doctor Meldrim was

1049
00:50:59,039 --> 00:51:02,920
championing in his last few years. Here, it does make

1050
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:06,440
a lot of sense actually, based on the new paradigm

1051
00:51:06,559 --> 00:51:07,599
of human evolution.

1052
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: I guess he does kind of extend that he does

1053
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:14,000
say here the possibility of multiple species of such animals

1054
00:51:14,079 --> 00:51:16,639
might avoid this problem, but it only serves to raise another.

1055
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,840
For science to admits one large species of unknown primate

1056
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,719
is difficult enough to swallow. To claim there are still

1057
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,280
more of them only strains to the breaking point whatever

1058
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,559
credibility there may have been. And I just don't agree

1059
00:51:27,559 --> 00:51:30,119
with that. Like again, if we used big cats as

1060
00:51:30,119 --> 00:51:32,960
an example, like, yeah, there are big cats in the

1061
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,440
Americas and in Africa and in Asia, you know, and

1062
00:51:36,519 --> 00:51:40,519
so it's there. There's plenty of things that are related

1063
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,119
genera and species that I don't think pose any sort

1064
00:51:45,119 --> 00:51:47,760
of a problem to the existence of any one or another.

1065
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,960
And especially if you say, well, there are apes in

1066
00:51:51,039 --> 00:51:54,960
Africa and Asia, why not one more continent? I don't

1067
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,039
think would be a problem. But I guess I can

1068
00:51:57,079 --> 00:52:00,199
try to understand he's being hyper conservative there.

1069
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, and it goes back to that previous sentence

1070
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,400
about how scientists, you know, don't like to be wrong. Basically,

1071
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,400
how they sometimes treat science as or religion in a

1072
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,519
way like the belief system rather than a process.

1073
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: This I think you would agree with, because this is

1074
00:52:16,039 --> 00:52:19,639
one of our most frequently discussed talking points. He says

1075
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,119
much potential support from individual scientists is lost when the

1076
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:28,199
enthusiasts bring in irrelevancies or downright impossibilities.

1077
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, that says it all right there. That says it

1078
00:52:31,159 --> 00:52:34,519
all right there. That's my argument. It's not even an

1079
00:52:34,559 --> 00:52:37,000
argument against the paranormal. It's just a constant. It's what

1080
00:52:37,079 --> 00:52:40,840
I say is a consequence of paranormal claims about sasquatches

1081
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,440
that individual scientists are going to run from the subject.

1082
00:52:45,639 --> 00:52:47,519
There's one thing to say, Yeah, there's an animal species

1083
00:52:47,559 --> 00:52:49,480
that we can actually find or actually here, you can

1084
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,159
find sign of them, you can find footprints, you can

1085
00:52:51,159 --> 00:52:53,599
find foraging sites, you can find people who've seen them.

1086
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:58,079
And then suddenly, oh no, there's an all powerful forest god,

1087
00:52:58,519 --> 00:53:01,000
a forest spirit that protects us and wants us to

1088
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,880
succeed and you know, and I don't know, eats dog

1089
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,000
food out of your back porch, like it starts sounding

1090
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,400
pretty weird. And why would a scientist look into something

1091
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,840
that sounds like there is no possibility of you know

1092
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:14,239
what I mean?

1093
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 1: And the things he mentions are pretty tame in comparison

1094
00:53:17,559 --> 00:53:21,840
to the wild, supernatural, mystical, you know, paranormal claims. He

1095
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:25,760
just says, I'm reminded of an otherwise excellent newspaper article

1096
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,880
on the evidence for sasquatch that was utterly destroyed by

1097
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,039
the writer's reference to a large petrified heart he'd examined.

1098
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,519
Many hair samples have been collected, and some could not

1099
00:53:34,599 --> 00:53:36,760
be identified, but this just means they could be from

1100
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:38,840
some part of the pelt of a known animal that

1101
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,039
had not been analyzed. Equal samples can also be studied,

1102
00:53:42,039 --> 00:53:45,079
but these can never prove a new animal exists. I've

1103
00:53:45,079 --> 00:53:47,960
been shown many photographs purporting to be of sasquatches, which

1104
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,800
are in fact just chance combinations of light and shadow

1105
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,639
and vegetation. If even half of these pictures were real,

1106
00:53:53,679 --> 00:53:56,159
the sasquatch must be a very common wild animal in

1107
00:53:56,159 --> 00:54:00,000
North America. So he basically says, to close that paragraph

1108
00:54:00,559 --> 00:54:03,000
in my opinion, people who push for the acceptance of

1109
00:54:03,039 --> 00:54:06,440
the above kinds of data have lost their credibility and

1110
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,159
one might well be suspicious of any kind of information

1111
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,480
they have. Oh, Krantz, if only you had lived to

1112
00:54:12,559 --> 00:54:14,960
the deep into the Internet age.

1113
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,119
Speaker 2: Oh I know, I know, you know.

1114
00:54:17,119 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 3: And that also reminds me of John Bindernogle actually in

1115
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,719
a way, because John's one of his drums. He beat constantly,

1116
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:28,039
was always put forth the best evidence, which contrasts to

1117
00:54:28,119 --> 00:54:29,679
what I think he was saying, is like, don't put

1118
00:54:29,679 --> 00:54:32,719
out the bad stuff. It might actually be evidence. For example,

1119
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,039
like the footprint cast that I'm getting Adam in my

1120
00:54:35,159 --> 00:54:39,239
research area that most of them wouldn't convince anybody that

1121
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,559
is even a footprint when you look at what actually

1122
00:54:41,599 --> 00:54:43,679
it comes out of the ground in the form of plaster.

1123
00:54:44,079 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 2: But in the ground.

1124
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,199
Speaker 3: I mean, I've I've shown lots of people prints in

1125
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:49,079
the ground. It's like, oh yeah, I totally see that.

1126
00:54:49,159 --> 00:54:51,480
But when you pour plaster into it, which is really

1127
00:54:51,519 --> 00:54:54,239
the shareable part. I can show photographs as well, but

1128
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,880
it's more meaningful and to show a cast, and they

1129
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,719
are more analyzable. I'm not sure if that's the right word,

1130
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,639
but able to be analyzed. At least benner Nooggle is

1131
00:55:03,639 --> 00:55:06,480
always saying, put forth the best stuff, because if you

1132
00:55:06,559 --> 00:55:09,400
put forth the weak stuff, then they're just gonna stop

1133
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,119
coming around, you know, like like the boy you cried

1134
00:55:11,159 --> 00:55:14,400
wolf sort of thing, even if like oh, yeah, well maybe,

1135
00:55:14,519 --> 00:55:16,840
but if you show them something that is a footprint

1136
00:55:17,119 --> 00:55:19,280
one hundred percent, then they oh, well, okay, let's take

1137
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:21,639
a look at this and find out what's going on here.

1138
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:23,719
They actually have some meat to chew on, so to speak,

1139
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,880
as opposed to the like the flimsy squishy evidence, and

1140
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,280
which I produce a lot of. I produce a lot

1141
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:32,480
of very very flimsy, squishy evidence because tracks in the

1142
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:35,039
ground are not easy to cast in any sort of

1143
00:55:35,119 --> 00:55:37,840
dessordable form. But yeah, so that reminds me the bendern

1144
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:39,079
Noggle drum.

1145
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 1: I mean, at least for me, because there's a number

1146
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,639
of things I've seen and collected in terms of documentation

1147
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,400
out in the field recorded you know what I think

1148
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,559
are vocalizations, but they are certainly not as close and

1149
00:55:50,639 --> 00:55:53,639
crisp and clear as the best example. So I always thought, well,

1150
00:55:54,159 --> 00:55:56,679
in terms of like the best of its class, if

1151
00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:59,960
what I have and collect is not of equal or

1152
00:56:00,119 --> 00:56:02,519
higher quality than the best of its class. I should

1153
00:56:02,559 --> 00:56:05,280
probably just sit on it and save myself the headache

1154
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,679
and heartache of trying to explain it and defend it,

1155
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,440
knowing that like, well, hey, if this collection of much clearer,

1156
00:56:11,559 --> 00:56:15,320
better recordings has not you know, won over the argument

1157
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,880
or the bioacousticians, then I should probably save myself the

1158
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,840
headache and not assume that my example of lesser quality.

1159
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 2: Will you know what I mean? Now?

1160
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,159
Speaker 1: I shared among you know, researchers and other friends and

1161
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:29,360
as data points, but not necessarily like thrust it in

1162
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,599
front of the scientists and say, what do you think

1163
00:56:31,639 --> 00:56:31,880
of this?

1164
00:56:32,079 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 2: You know, how do you like them? Apples?

1165
00:56:34,639 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1166
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 2: Exactly.

1167
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 1: I remember listening to a great episode of the Meat

1168
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:40,679
Eater podcast with Steven Ronella, and they were talking about

1169
00:56:40,679 --> 00:56:43,599
that Brian Sike study, Yeah, and saying like, oh, of

1170
00:56:43,639 --> 00:56:45,320
all the hair samples we got, you know, none of

1171
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:47,880
them turned out to be conclusive proof of Bigfoot or

1172
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:51,960
YETI And you know, Renella is a hunter conservationist. He's

1173
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,440
not a squatch or by any means. But he had said, man,

1174
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,559
you just know there's some dudes sitting in his house

1175
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,280
holding his shoe box right now, going, yeah, well, they

1176
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,280
ain't seen these hair samples, And I thought, dude, if

1177
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:07,679
you only knew how true that was. Yeah, I do

1178
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,719
like the line here with Krant says certain conservationists had

1179
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,320
taken up the cause of protecting the Sasquatch, and they

1180
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:17,639
speak in favor of extending various laws which prohibit shooting one.

1181
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:21,519
These local laws are intended mainly to protect innocent bystanders,

1182
00:57:21,719 --> 00:57:26,760
including farmers, cows, and lawmen, rather than the Sasquatch itself.

1183
00:57:27,599 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's certainly, I mean certainly in regards to

1184
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:33,159
the Scamania County law, which has passed probably around the

1185
00:57:33,159 --> 00:57:37,039
time that this article was published, because at this point

1186
00:57:37,119 --> 00:57:39,679
he says somewhere in this article, how many footprint casts

1187
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,599
or footprints he's examined and witnesses that he has spoken to,

1188
00:57:42,639 --> 00:57:45,119
And it was a fairly small number. I forget where

1189
00:57:45,199 --> 00:57:47,000
that is. I'm kind of scanning for right now, but

1190
00:57:47,039 --> 00:57:48,960
it wasn't it like two or something like that, Or

1191
00:57:49,039 --> 00:57:51,639
is that we even't gotten there yet? Maybe that's further

1192
00:57:51,719 --> 00:57:55,639
on in the article. But I had something like thirty

1193
00:57:55,679 --> 00:57:57,800
somethings casts. I remember something like that. And I know

1194
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,679
when he wrote big footprints his book, and in ninety

1195
00:58:01,679 --> 00:58:03,159
one ers when he published that one, I think the

1196
00:58:03,239 --> 00:58:05,199
number had run the sixty something if I remember right,

1197
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,320
So this is fairly early in his big footing career.

1198
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,760
So this is probably talking about this Comania County law

1199
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,960
which was largely to protect you know, jackasses and monkey

1200
00:58:13,039 --> 00:58:15,440
suits essentially, and it was also published, by the way,

1201
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,239
on April first, of you know, sixty nine or whatever

1202
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:20,599
year that was, so kind of that go along with

1203
00:58:20,639 --> 00:58:25,400
that April Fools thing. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and

1204
00:58:25,559 --> 00:58:28,239
beyond with Cliff and Bobo will be right back. After

1205
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:35,719
these messages, he.

1206
00:58:35,719 --> 00:58:39,039
Speaker 1: Continues to you know, along the lines of collecting a specimen.

1207
00:58:39,039 --> 00:58:41,199
He kind of makes the same arguments that he's made

1208
00:58:41,199 --> 00:58:43,679
in many other places, and so I don't necessarily think

1209
00:58:43,679 --> 00:58:45,599
we have to belabor all that about the need to

1210
00:58:45,599 --> 00:58:48,960
collecting a specimen. But he's essentially in this paragraph just

1211
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:52,639
stating that, you know, no real legislation is going to happen,

1212
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:55,480
No public officials are really going to do anything about

1213
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:59,159
this until a specimen is collected. So all this other

1214
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,280
activity on that behalf of or on the part of

1215
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:06,119
conservationists to protect sasquatches on their behalf is really fruitless

1216
00:59:06,239 --> 00:59:07,199
without a specimen.

1217
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:10,679
Speaker 3: The only contention I would have there is that, let's take,

1218
00:59:10,679 --> 00:59:12,920
for example, that fifth grade class where we had the

1219
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:15,000
teacher on her name escapes me at the moment where

1220
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,159
they're going around county to county and having them past

1221
00:59:17,159 --> 00:59:20,239
city ordinances that literally have no teeth whatsoever. But it

1222
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:24,320
does raise public awareness and kind of make Sasquatches the

1223
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:28,239
good guy in a sort of public public relations way.

1224
00:59:28,559 --> 00:59:30,760
I think that it does do some sort of good

1225
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,199
on that level, whatever that's worth. And actually, maybe through

1226
00:59:34,199 --> 00:59:36,280
their lack of understanding of the law, maybe it would

1227
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:40,480
stop somebody from shooting one, which is both good and bad. Yeah, yeah,

1228
00:59:40,519 --> 00:59:43,039
I definitely think there would be updates to that. In

1229
00:59:44,159 --> 00:59:46,480
twenty twenty six. Now, other things have happened that have

1230
00:59:46,599 --> 00:59:50,800
created new little precedence here and there. I understand the

1231
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:52,280
sentiment of this next paragraph.

1232
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,519
Speaker 1: I would quibble with it a bit, but he does

1233
00:59:54,599 --> 00:59:58,639
say many sasquatch investigators have stated their intentions to provide

1234
00:59:58,719 --> 01:00:01,920
sufficient proof without killing a specimen. These people are in

1235
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,079
keen competition with each other for this success. The scientific

1236
01:00:05,159 --> 01:00:08,239
establishment will simply take over, assuring us they knew all

1237
01:00:08,239 --> 01:00:11,519
along the creatures were real and will exclude all amateurs

1238
01:00:11,519 --> 01:00:15,360
from further investigations. Anyone who seriously thinks the sasquatch should

1239
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,119
not be taken does not really want their existence to

1240
01:00:18,159 --> 01:00:21,760
be proven, And I think we've probably elucidated those points

1241
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:23,840
a lot in the last few years that we've been

1242
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,599
doing this podcast. But I think there are plenty of

1243
01:00:27,159 --> 01:00:32,079
genuinely serious investigators who really do want proof to be discovered,

1244
01:00:32,679 --> 01:00:37,119
that are not necessarily engaged in or endorsing or pursuing

1245
01:00:37,159 --> 01:00:40,760
the collection of a specimen who should be taken seriously.

1246
01:00:40,679 --> 01:00:43,119
Speaker 2: You know, oh, absolutely absolutely.

1247
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 3: There are lots of people who don't want a sasquatch

1248
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,400
to be killed out of compassion, but that doesn't mean

1249
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:51,599
they don't really want the existence to be proven.

1250
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 2: I think I'm one of them.

1251
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:55,639
Speaker 3: Actually, I don't want to shoot a sasquatch, But at

1252
01:00:55,679 --> 01:00:58,159
the same time, I think I think it's probably fair

1253
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:01,880
to consider myself a sasquatch researcher. I think that's appropriate.

1254
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:04,079
But I do want their existence to be proven. But

1255
01:01:04,079 --> 01:01:06,840
I'm also want to know, you know, illusions that a

1256
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:08,679
couple of these things are not going to be killed

1257
01:01:08,679 --> 01:01:11,119
when they're when they're taking you know, when they're when

1258
01:01:11,119 --> 01:01:12,880
they're real, so to speak, you know, when they're proven.

1259
01:01:13,679 --> 01:01:17,519
So so compassion doesn't mean you're you're against them being discovered,

1260
01:01:18,079 --> 01:01:19,800
just means you don't want to pull the trigger. You know,

1261
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:21,480
I don't. I don't hunt deer for the same reason,

1262
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,119
you know, And I've got nothing against anybody who does

1263
01:01:24,199 --> 01:01:27,280
hunt nothing at all, but I don't want to do it.

1264
01:01:28,159 --> 01:01:30,119
Speaker 1: I agree. I don't think it's for the citizen to

1265
01:01:30,519 --> 01:01:32,840
take up I think it's better left to institutions. But

1266
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:36,320
there's the catch twenty two is that institutions won't take

1267
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,519
up the charge without something like conclusive proof, which would

1268
01:01:39,519 --> 01:01:42,199
probably be a specimen or a major portion of one.

1269
01:01:42,239 --> 01:01:45,440
But hopefully, like you mentioned, DNA is a portion of

1270
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:47,039
a specimen, and maybe that would do it.

1271
01:01:47,079 --> 01:01:51,079
Speaker 3: But I also disagree with this, that the scientific establishment

1272
01:01:51,119 --> 01:01:55,760
will exclude all amateurs from further investigations. I strongly disagree

1273
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,639
with that, and I've had conversations with multiple scientists and PhDs.

1274
01:02:00,079 --> 01:02:02,199
You know, Darby included. You know, Darby says no, no

1275
01:02:02,239 --> 01:02:04,360
after if we get the thing done, and he still

1276
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:07,239
doesn't know. If we get this thing done, we're still

1277
01:02:07,239 --> 01:02:09,440
going to need people like you, is what Darby and

1278
01:02:09,519 --> 01:02:11,840
I talk about. I had the same conversation with Leela

1279
01:02:12,159 --> 01:02:13,960
from the Kentucky Project as well. It's like, no, this

1280
01:02:14,039 --> 01:02:16,800
is one of those one of those fields like astronomy,

1281
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:21,000
where amateurs are going to have to play a large role.

1282
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:21,679
Speaker 2: You know.

1283
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 3: There's no way that like the North American Bigfoot Center,

1284
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:26,960
you know, which is like is slowly becoming this this

1285
01:02:27,119 --> 01:02:30,800
beacon here in my area of Oregon, when somebody sees

1286
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,360
a sasquatch, we're going to get some of those reports

1287
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:34,960
and proof is in the pudding, you know. At the

1288
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:37,320
beginning of the month, I took a footprint find and

1289
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,719
did an investigation as well as a sighting report. Somebody

1290
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,159
saw a sasquatch on May first, or I mean it's

1291
01:02:43,159 --> 01:02:45,800
trying to you know, March first. Rather, there's no way

1292
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:49,639
that like that information is going to be like useless,

1293
01:02:50,199 --> 01:02:52,320
and I'm going to be I'm going to be poo

1294
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:55,400
pooed upon by the academics when that after these things

1295
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:59,599
are real. I think the museum and other serious investigators,

1296
01:03:00,079 --> 01:03:04,199
serious and sober minded investigators are going to be key

1297
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:08,599
to studying sasquatches after they're proven to be real, which

1298
01:03:08,599 --> 01:03:10,079
is part of the reason I'm in the game right now.

1299
01:03:10,079 --> 01:03:12,119
I think it's cool and I want to participate.

1300
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 1: Aimen to that. So for these final two paragraphs, I

1301
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:18,320
think a lot of this holds true and is relevant,

1302
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:20,920
and we were seeing a lot of this right now,

1303
01:03:21,719 --> 01:03:23,840
he says. At this point, the burden of proof is

1304
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:26,519
still on the believers. Until a specimen is produced, the

1305
01:03:26,519 --> 01:03:29,719
skeptics will continue to hold the field. It is possible

1306
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:32,800
to prove something exists by producing it. The reverse is

1307
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:35,960
not possible. One does not prove a non existence with

1308
01:03:36,039 --> 01:03:39,519
positive evidence. The failure to produce a specimen continues to

1309
01:03:39,559 --> 01:03:43,239
be strong evidence against the Sasquatch. The skeptics deny the

1310
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:46,039
existence of the Sasquatch because they see no evidence for it.

1311
01:03:46,239 --> 01:03:48,400
The fact that they refuse to look at what evidence

1312
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,400
there is available and try to discourage the gathering of

1313
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:54,079
more data seems not to bother them at all. The

1314
01:03:54,119 --> 01:03:56,760
believers act as though the case has already been proven

1315
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:59,880
and the Sasquatch should be accepted and protected right now.

1316
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:02,880
It's interesting that many of them also oppose bringing a

1317
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:05,440
definitive proof in the form of a body. It is

1318
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:07,719
almost as though the sides are drawn and neither one

1319
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,599
really wants the issue settled. They would rather fight than

1320
01:04:10,679 --> 01:04:13,440
find out. Both sides are getting a lot of mileage

1321
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:16,400
out of the existence of the opposing side. Each side

1322
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:18,559
has a group of people that can criticize and make

1323
01:04:18,599 --> 01:04:21,840
fun of. A concerted effort might prove one side wrong,

1324
01:04:22,079 --> 01:04:24,039
and perhaps neither side wants to risk that.

1325
01:04:25,159 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, like that's almost like foreshadowing of social media. Yes,

1326
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:33,320
I don't know. Kramtz is a prophet as well. Yeah,

1327
01:04:33,679 --> 01:04:36,320
he's just basically yeah, Yeah, there's gonna there's gonna be

1328
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:38,320
the thing called Facebook. You guys are gonna love it,

1329
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:40,039
You'll all hate each other. It's gonna be awesome.

1330
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:44,079
Speaker 1: It's just funny to see that, Like even back then

1331
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:47,719
in you know, like I totally understand the skeptical position

1332
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:50,599
because there's many things that I'm equally skeptical of, right,

1333
01:04:50,639 --> 01:04:54,400
but so that hasn't and shouldn't really have changed, and

1334
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:56,400
that you know where the skeptical side says, well, hey,

1335
01:04:56,639 --> 01:04:58,639
we don't see evidence for it, We're gonna wait for

1336
01:04:58,679 --> 01:05:00,920
more evidence, and he's right to sort of say, well,

1337
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,559
they also don't look at what evidence there is, and

1338
01:05:03,599 --> 01:05:07,079
they also discourage the gathering of more evidence. So those

1339
01:05:07,119 --> 01:05:10,119
things aside for him to say in seventy eight, well,

1340
01:05:10,159 --> 01:05:13,000
the believers acts though the case has already been proven,

1341
01:05:13,119 --> 01:05:15,920
and the sasquad should be accepted and protected right now.

1342
01:05:16,559 --> 01:05:18,920
And that was on a much more limited data set

1343
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:21,679
than we're dealing with today. And yeah, a lot of

1344
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:25,519
us still believe. I think Benner Ningel argued quite well

1345
01:05:25,559 --> 01:05:27,559
that like, well, hey, discovery has already happened, it just

1346
01:05:27,599 --> 01:05:30,239
hasn't been recognized. So that's almost like the counter argument,

1347
01:05:30,719 --> 01:05:33,800
you know, It's almost like Krantz would in broad strokes

1348
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:38,119
paint Benner Nagel into that same category. Mm hm totally,

1349
01:05:38,679 --> 01:05:40,880
which I think, you know, Bennernagel's case was a heck

1350
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:44,480
of a lot stronger than you know, most enthusiasts cases

1351
01:05:44,559 --> 01:05:48,960
are about, you know, what constitutes you know, proof, discovery, evidence,

1352
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:52,840
et cetera. But it is interesting that that same dichotomy

1353
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:55,559
about like Krantz pushing back against like he started the

1354
01:05:55,559 --> 01:05:57,719
paper with, like I'm going to piss people off on

1355
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:00,519
both sides of this argument, and saying to believers like, hey,

1356
01:06:00,519 --> 01:06:02,079
I know you think you've already made your case, but

1357
01:06:02,119 --> 01:06:04,760
you haven't. You failed thus far, And that that was

1358
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:07,559
there wasn't as much like humil. You think there'd be

1359
01:06:07,599 --> 01:06:10,519
more humility in nineteen seventy eight of people saying like, hey,

1360
01:06:10,519 --> 01:06:12,199
we got to push this thing forward, we got to

1361
01:06:12,199 --> 01:06:14,760
get there. But obviously he was dealing with a cohort

1362
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:17,599
of people that were saying like, no, we've the balls

1363
01:06:17,599 --> 01:06:20,199
already in the end zone. We've already scored. Like they

1364
01:06:20,239 --> 01:06:23,679
just haven't recognized us, that the establishment has not smiled upon.

1365
01:06:23,599 --> 01:06:25,920
Speaker 2: Us for our victory yet. Yeah.

1366
01:06:26,159 --> 01:06:28,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I loved wanting something to be true. Maybe a

1367
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:31,039
good reason to investigate it. But wanting something to be

1368
01:06:31,119 --> 01:06:35,119
true does not constitute any evidence that it is true. Man,

1369
01:06:35,199 --> 01:06:37,800
If that's not, if that's not something that we're seeing

1370
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:40,360
right now, it's I don't know what is man. God

1371
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:44,559
Krantz has had such a flare for subtly twisting knives.

1372
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:46,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, you should read that in last paragraph, because we

1373
01:06:46,639 --> 01:06:48,400
haven't even touched on that one yet.

1374
01:06:48,599 --> 01:06:49,079
Speaker 2: Oh we didn't.

1375
01:06:49,079 --> 01:06:50,840
Speaker 3: I thought we'd try that. I'm going to read this

1376
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:53,880
whole thing here and just listen to the rye, dark

1377
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:58,719
twisting of knives that Krantz was just excelled at here. Unfortunately,

1378
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:01,880
both sides argue strongly from what they want to be

1379
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:05,119
true rather than what they know. Wanting something to be

1380
01:07:05,199 --> 01:07:08,639
true maybe a good reason to investigate it, but wanting

1381
01:07:08,679 --> 01:07:12,000
something to be true does not constitute any evidence that

1382
01:07:12,119 --> 01:07:15,800
it is true. As it stands now, most of the

1383
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:18,800
people on one side of this argument, and all, in

1384
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:22,039
my judgment, of those on the other side, have not

1385
01:07:22,559 --> 01:07:26,119
thoroughly investigated both sides of the issue. They would be

1386
01:07:26,199 --> 01:07:29,480
a lot more reasonable if they would just honestly admit

1387
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:33,679
they don't know for sure. But who expects reason in

1388
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:38,679
a subject like this, You know, there's a little to

1389
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:39,679
hinden in Krantz.

1390
01:07:40,079 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, he definitely was a disagreeable dude, absolutely, absolutely, much

1391
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:47,880
more reasonable I think than perhaps might have been in

1392
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:48,320
some ways.

1393
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:50,559
Speaker 3: But I'd never met to Hinton nor Krantz, so I'm

1394
01:07:50,559 --> 01:07:53,599
not really one to know. But from what I understand

1395
01:07:53,679 --> 01:07:56,679
about Krantz, and this is largely indirectly from Larry Lund,

1396
01:07:56,920 --> 01:08:00,440
who knew Krantz very well, and doctor Meldrum who told

1397
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:02,599
me lots of stories about doctor Krantz or whatever else.

1398
01:08:03,159 --> 01:08:06,519
Just he had that sort of dark up your sense

1399
01:08:06,559 --> 01:08:09,400
of humor, you know, and he like, for example, that

1400
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:12,440
famous clip in one of those early documentaries where he's

1401
01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:15,679
he's talking about the Bossberg tracks where he saist, you know,

1402
01:08:15,719 --> 01:08:19,119
whoever had whoever you know made these if these are fake,

1403
01:08:19,119 --> 01:08:21,520
whoever made these had a da vincially like level of

1404
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:23,640
intelligence that was way smarter than me. And I don't

1405
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:27,079
think a person like that exists. Yeah, if you watch closely,

1406
01:08:27,119 --> 01:08:29,760
his lips start to curl up into a rise smile

1407
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:31,880
right afterwards, because that was his sense of humor. And

1408
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:34,359
I think that he just liked the kind of you know,

1409
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:37,840
flick and poop at people and in a subtle sort

1410
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,239
of up your sort of way. And I just love

1411
01:08:40,359 --> 01:08:47,000
that he expressed that trickster element of his personality in

1412
01:08:47,119 --> 01:08:50,239
this particular paragraph. So I wish I could have met him.

1413
01:08:50,319 --> 01:08:51,840
I just wish I could have met him.

1414
01:08:52,079 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is important. Like we talked about having

1415
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:57,000
a foot in both worlds and sort of trying to

1416
01:08:57,039 --> 01:08:59,680
bridge the two. Like he says, most of the people

1417
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:02,399
on one or the other side have not thoroughly investigated

1418
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:04,640
both sides of the issue, and that's such an important thing.

1419
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:06,920
We talked about this on a member's only episode once,

1420
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:08,439
but I don't think we talked about it on the

1421
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:10,600
main side. But you know, if you're looking at any

1422
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:15,000
argument where there are two totally opposed narratives. You know,

1423
01:09:15,079 --> 01:09:18,600
two cases presented. You have to know both of them

1424
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:20,960
if you're going to say that you prefer one because

1425
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:23,000
if you say, well, this is the truth and the

1426
01:09:23,039 --> 01:09:25,600
other side is nonsense, well you have to know that

1427
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:29,079
other side because what you're essentially making is a preference.

1428
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:34,199
You're saying, I prefer this story over the counter story.

1429
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:36,640
But if you don't know the other story, then your

1430
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:39,359
your preference has no validity. I think I used the

1431
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:41,560
lame example of like, well, if you say that you

1432
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:44,039
know the Big Mac is the greatest burger ever, and

1433
01:09:44,119 --> 01:09:46,279
you've never had any other Hamburger, then it's like, well,

1434
01:09:46,279 --> 01:09:48,079
you really don't have a preference. You just kind of

1435
01:09:48,079 --> 01:09:50,319
have a position of ignorance. You've only ever been exposed

1436
01:09:50,359 --> 01:09:53,159
to one thing. And I see that over and over again.

1437
01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:56,119
Speaker 3: It's important to know the opposition, so to speak, and

1438
01:09:56,199 --> 01:09:58,079
you know, and not to hurt into like a sports

1439
01:09:58,119 --> 01:10:00,479
game or something, but you know there's a big game.

1440
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:03,279
You know the coaches are setting the other team's plays, right,

1441
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:08,319
And that's why I strongly advocate towards skepticism and most things,

1442
01:10:08,359 --> 01:10:11,720
and it's not all things right, be super skeptical. And

1443
01:10:12,119 --> 01:10:15,039
so when a new skeptic publishes a book, and this

1444
01:10:15,079 --> 01:10:17,960
happens pretty frequently, read it. Read it to see if

1445
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:21,199
it holds up. You might be surprised. You know, they

1446
01:10:21,239 --> 01:10:23,359
probably have some good points, and they probably have some

1447
01:10:23,399 --> 01:10:25,960
bad points. But that's also true of the skeptical side

1448
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:30,359
of things. They must be reading. They must read the literature. Otherwise.

1449
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:33,239
You know, if I hear once again that you know,

1450
01:10:33,319 --> 01:10:35,640
so and so said this is fake and they're therefore

1451
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:40,039
it is, that tells me the veracity of their arguments,

1452
01:10:40,279 --> 01:10:42,560
and I'm not probably not going to read too much

1453
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:44,479
more of them. In the same sort of way that

1454
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:47,479
if somebody reads an article where somebody claims something about

1455
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:49,760
sasquat stuff and they know it's not true, they're what

1456
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:51,960
they say from now on isn't going to hold any

1457
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:52,520
weight either.

1458
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 2: Right.

1459
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that great John Stuart Mill quote to paraphrase,

1460
01:10:56,920 --> 01:10:59,119
that's like the person who only knows their side of

1461
01:10:59,119 --> 01:11:00,600
the argument knows little of that.

1462
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:03,119
Speaker 2: There you go, there you go.

1463
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:07,279
Speaker 1: But that is the thorough reading review of Krantz's article,

1464
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:10,760
Sasquatch Believers Versus the Skeptics. I don't know if it's

1465
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:13,159
available online. Anywhere, so I had to like transpose it

1466
01:11:13,199 --> 01:11:15,199
from a written book. So if I can't find a

1467
01:11:15,199 --> 01:11:17,920
linkable version online, I'll put a link in the show

1468
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:21,319
notes and I'll just copy paste this and format it

1469
01:11:21,359 --> 01:11:23,479
on our Patreon and make it a free post. So like,

1470
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:25,840
anybody listening to this can click it and it'll take

1471
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:27,560
it to our Patreon and you can read this article

1472
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:28,399
in its entirety.

1473
01:11:29,039 --> 01:11:30,680
Speaker 3: That's it for this week, and we're going to be

1474
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:34,640
tackling another article from The Skeptical Inquirer actually in our

1475
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:36,159
members side, so if you want to be a member,

1476
01:11:36,199 --> 01:11:38,359
go check that out. And also, did you know we

1477
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:42,159
have t shirts. We have t shirts available from sasquatchprints

1478
01:11:42,359 --> 01:11:45,359
dot com, so go check those out and if you

1479
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:47,079
like it, buy one. It helps us a little bit.

1480
01:11:47,199 --> 01:11:49,000
And if you don't like them, that's cool, draw a

1481
01:11:49,039 --> 01:11:50,720
picture of us send it to us.

1482
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:51,319
Speaker 2: Anyway.

1483
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:53,520
Speaker 3: Thank you very much for listening, and we'll talk to

1484
01:11:53,560 --> 01:12:01,000
you next time. Keep a squatchy. Thanks for listening to

1485
01:12:01,079 --> 01:12:04,239
this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond. If you liked

1486
01:12:04,279 --> 01:12:06,960
what you heard, please rate and review us on iTunes,

1487
01:12:07,399 --> 01:12:10,479
subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you get your podcasts,

1488
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:13,520
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1489
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:17,680
Beyond podcast. You can find us on Twitter at Bigfoot

1490
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:21,000
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1491
01:12:21,119 --> 01:12:24,520
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1492
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:25,399
Beyond