Speaker 1: Because all of the beliefs that lead to negative thoughts,
Speaker 1: that manifest negative aspects in your life, they're all nonsense.
Speaker 1: They're all unnecessary. And you have the power to release
Speaker 1: them all. So probably not going to happen all in
Speaker 1: one session. And that's why I emphasize every single week,
Speaker 1: please listen to these sessions on repeat every day as
Speaker 1: many times as you can. And I know that so
Speaker 1: many of you have emailed me or messaged me and
Speaker 1: said that you've listened repeatedly. And every time you're listening,
Speaker 1: More and more stuff will clear. So please definitely take
Speaker 1: advantage of that.
Speaker 2: What was the voice of Liana Shanti? Up to this
Speaker 2: point in the series, we have spent a lot of
Speaker 2: time looking at the structure of Liana Shanti's digital world.
Speaker 2: We have heard from former students and ex-community members about
Speaker 2: how they found her. And in interview after interview, a
Speaker 2: pattern has emerged. As explained in previous episodes, some clips
Speaker 2: may be repeated throughout the series for context and clarity.
Speaker 2: Here is Jennifer, an ex-student, who spent two years inside
Speaker 2: Liana Shanti's community.
Speaker 3: In my 20s, I developed an autoimmune condition. And then
Speaker 3: during the pandemic in 2020, I was laid off from
Speaker 3: my job. I... was really burnt out, depression and anxiety,
Speaker 3: and I realized I have a lot of trauma, a
Speaker 3: lot of childhood trauma and adult trauma that is leading
Speaker 3: me to this place of burnout. The solution still felt
Speaker 3: really elusive, and that's when I discovered Leanna on Instagram.
Speaker 2: And here is Tammy, another former student.
Speaker 4: I had some health issues that I was working through.
Speaker 4: And I came to her through a mutual friend. There
Speaker 4: are so many kernels of truth littered throughout this practice
Speaker 4: that I'm truly grateful for. Unfortunately, the kernels of truth
Speaker 4: also led to darker pathways.
Speaker 2: This is a pattern former community members and ex-students describe repeatedly.
Speaker 2: A period of vulnerability. A search for answers. and a
Speaker 2: first encounter with content that seemed to speak directly to
Speaker 2: where they were. In the accounts of those who eventually left,
Speaker 2: that content evolved. What began as wellness advice, plant-based eating, juicing,
Speaker 2: and spiritual practice became, in the words of former students,
Speaker 2: something more absolute, a framework that seemed to explain everything.
Speaker 2: And at the centre of that framework were two courses,
Speaker 2: Mother Wound and Father Wound. Mother Wound and Father Wound
Speaker 2: are audio programs sold through Liana Shanti's digital platform. They
Speaker 2: run for several hours and are designed, according to Liana
Speaker 2: Shanti's own instructions, to be listened to on repeat, sometimes daily.
Speaker 2: Zach is a former family member of an ex-community member.
Speaker 2: When his then-wife became deeply involved in Liana Shanti's community,
Speaker 2: he decided to take both the Mother Wound and Father
Speaker 2: Wound courses himself to understand what she was listening to.
Speaker 2: Here is how he describes what those courses contained.
Speaker 5: The mother wounds, it's like a two, three hour program.
Speaker 5: I was listening to a lot because that's what you
Speaker 5: had to do. And you had to write down lots
Speaker 5: of things about your mother and your lifestyle. In the program,
Speaker 5: it made my mom sound like a narcissist. I was like, wow,
Speaker 5: I'm driving in my car, I'm listening to these programs.
Speaker 5: I started cutting my mom off.
Speaker 2: Zach then describes the overall logic of the course progression.
Speaker 5: The mother wounds teaches you your mom's a bad mom,
Speaker 5: cut your mom off. Your dad's a bad dad, cut
Speaker 5: your dad off. Narcissist course, your husband, your boyfriend, everybody
Speaker 5: around you, your family, friends, your growing children are narcissists
Speaker 5: and they're evil. And that's what teaches you.
Speaker 2: And here is Jack, whose own daughter Lisa became involved
Speaker 2: in the community. describing watching those courses enter his family.
Speaker 6: And that's where I think Leanna starts to chime in.
Speaker 6: Here's a free course, listen to it 24-7. And then
Speaker 6: she starts saying, oh, I have this mother wound, a
Speaker 6: father wound. Then it escalated from there. That's what we saw.
Speaker 2: In interview after interview, former students and their family members
Speaker 2: describe the same trajectory, starting with a free taster, then
Speaker 2: purchasing mother wound, then father wound, then the narcissism course.
Speaker 2: And as that progression unfolded, the people around them, their partners,
Speaker 2: their parents, their siblings, began appearing in a different light,
Speaker 2: a darker one. That is the context for this episode.
Speaker 2: Because behind every framework, every theory, and every accusation, there
Speaker 2: are people. Today we are stepping back from analysis and
Speaker 2: we are letting the family speak. Two parents, Jack and Anne,
Speaker 2: and a sister, Kristen, the people who watched Someone They
Speaker 2: Love change and then disappear. I'm your host, Casey. This
Speaker 2: is episode four of the Insta Scammer, and this is
Speaker 2: the story of Lisa. First of all, we are going
Speaker 2: to hear from Jack, Lisa's father. This is what Jack
Speaker 2: had to say when I asked him to tell me
Speaker 2: a little bit about Lisa growing up.
Speaker 6: I mean, she was a happy kid. She had a
Speaker 6: good life. She was very smart, very intelligent. Many friends.
Speaker 6: She read a lot. She traveled a lot. It was great.
Speaker 6: It was just great. I was stunned and blown away
Speaker 6: by this. Just blown away.
Speaker 2: And this is what Lisa's mother, Anne, had to say
Speaker 2: about her memories of Lisa as a child.
Speaker 7: She was a beautiful, caring, loving daughter. Like he said,
Speaker 7: she was our travel buddy. She went all over the place.
Speaker 7: She grew up in a wonderful family. We had a
Speaker 7: great life.
Speaker 2: And here is Lisa's sister, Kristen, talking about what she
Speaker 2: thinks about when she thinks of her sister, Lisa.
Speaker 8: So my sister, she's more introverted, but she's absolutely phenomenal
Speaker 8: in social settings. She's beautiful. She's charismatic. She's smart. She
Speaker 8: could talk about anything. We didn't have a lot of
Speaker 8: relationship when we were children. I desperately wanted a sister.
Speaker 8: And I finally got her. Best gift ever. But I
Speaker 8: was nine years old. So there's a big gap. By
Speaker 8: that point, I was, you know, approaching preteens. And then
Speaker 8: by the time I was a teenager, she was the
Speaker 8: annoying kid that was messing with my makeup. and going
Speaker 8: through my clothes and, you know, get out of my room.
Speaker 8: And then by the time I was in my late
Speaker 8: 20s and she was in her late teens, now we
Speaker 8: were more peers. Now we started to really connect, not
Speaker 8: just as sisters, but as friends. And she became one
Speaker 8: of my best friends. She came to visit in 2009.
Speaker 8: I had just moved into my house and I had
Speaker 8: an entire itinerary planned. So we went out salsa dancing
Speaker 8: one night and we ate Mexican food and we went
Speaker 8: out to see my friend's band perform. And we had
Speaker 8: a girls night where we made a whole bunch of
Speaker 8: hors d'oeuvres and I invited my friends over and we
Speaker 8: were all hanging out. Yeah, it was just, it was
Speaker 8: a great time.
Speaker 2: By this point in time, I'd been told by Jack
Speaker 2: and Anne about the time Lisa married her husband, Joe.
Speaker 2: And I asked them to give us some insight into
Speaker 2: into their wedding day.
Speaker 6: Well, it was beautiful. It was great.
Speaker 8: It was in a restaurant, an Italian restaurant in Queens,
Speaker 8: New York.
Speaker 5: It was really nice.
Speaker 8: He walked her down the aisle. My sister married them.
Speaker 6: She did.
Speaker 8: They both looked great.
Speaker 6: You know, and we all, in the pictures, you could
Speaker 6: see the family together and happy. It's just, it's hard to, like,
Speaker 6: We've been dealing with this for almost three years now.
Speaker 7: Three?
Speaker 6: Or four years.
Speaker 7: Christmas of 2020 was the last time we saw them.
Speaker 6: She cooked dinner for us.
Speaker 8: She did cook dinner.
Speaker 6: And it was beautiful.
Speaker 8: They left us a note.
Speaker 7: This was the most beautiful Christmas we had together. They
Speaker 7: just enjoyed themselves. We did puzzles and we just hung
Speaker 7: out the whole weekend. It was wonderful. And that was
Speaker 7: the last time. I have a picture of her feeding
Speaker 7: the dogs. on the floor with lights on her head.
Speaker 7: And that's the last that I have.
Speaker 2: I then asked Kristen when she first noticed some changes
Speaker 2: in Lisa's behavior.
Speaker 8: So I think everyone kind of went through some of
Speaker 8: their own unique struggles back in 2020. And my sister
Speaker 8: and I were not exempt from that. So she was
Speaker 8: living in Maine at the time. And they fully embraced
Speaker 8: the mask mandates, the staying at home. She ended up
Speaker 8: spending most of that time isolated in an apartment in
Speaker 8: a rather remote area of Maine. They went to the
Speaker 8: beach one day and they were kicked off the beach.
Speaker 8: They were not permitted to walk on the beach during
Speaker 8: the pandemic, even though no one else was there. And
Speaker 8: I live in North Carolina. You barely knew that the
Speaker 8: pandemic was going on. As soon as they came down in,
Speaker 8: I want to say it was late August or early
Speaker 8: September of 2020. We were getting sunshine and going for
Speaker 8: walks and going to restaurants. And it was so uplifting
Speaker 8: and so wonderful. But despite the reprieve from Maine, I
Speaker 8: think it really affected Lisa. And she was always looking
Speaker 8: for ways to improve herself. But once she came down
Speaker 8: and moved to North Carolina, one of the things that
Speaker 8: I was observing was that everything she pursued was online.
Speaker 8: Meaning her grocery shopping, her clothing shopping, her clients were
Speaker 8: only online relationships. All of her self-help, her books, her podcasts,
Speaker 8: her music, everything was online. And It began to concern
Speaker 8: me because it seemed like she only wanted to live
Speaker 8: in her apartment in an online life. And I don't
Speaker 8: know if there was some like agoraphobia going on or
Speaker 8: maybe it was just a habit and where she was
Speaker 8: very comfortable. When she was talking about being on a
Speaker 8: path and trying to more deeply understand relationships and where
Speaker 8: she was and her own thinking, all the answers she
Speaker 8: was pursuing online, I told her, you need to stop
Speaker 8: pursuing all of these things to fix yourself and fit
Speaker 8: into this mold. And you need to just start living.
Speaker 8: You and Joe, you know, go buy a house. Go
Speaker 8: have some kids. You know, you're in your 30s. Part
Speaker 8: of the reason why you feel unfulfilled and you feel
Speaker 8: a little lost is because you're in limbo. And you're
Speaker 8: not going to find the answers in a course. You're
Speaker 8: not going to find the answers in a book. You're
Speaker 8: not going to find the answers from some person you're following.
Speaker 8: And she was a little upset by that. But it
Speaker 8: was true.
Speaker 6: I don't know if it was Joe or Lisa who
Speaker 6: found Liana. And I guess they got the free course.
Speaker 6: And then from there... They fell into it. They fell
Speaker 6: into it.
Speaker 8: They were isolating themselves.
Speaker 6: And I believe what it was, was when they started
Speaker 6: changing their diet... Absolutely. You know, they were drinking her juices.
Speaker 8: No meat.
Speaker 6: No meat. And I learned that they were doing these
Speaker 6: coffee enemas, but you have to have food, you know?
Speaker 6: So we felt it was draining them.
Speaker 8: Just draining the brain.
Speaker 6: Draining the body. And that's where I think Leanna starts
Speaker 6: to chime in. Here's a free course. Listen to it 24-7.
Speaker 6: And then she starts saying, oh, I have this mother wound,
Speaker 6: a father wound. And then it escalated from there. That's
Speaker 6: what we saw. From what I'm hearing, the stories that
Speaker 6: you've been putting out and other people, it's almost the
Speaker 6: same scenario.
Speaker 8: When she was in Maine, some women that she worked
Speaker 8: with did a program called that I believe had the
Speaker 8: same name, Mother Wound. She kept talking about a healing journey.
Speaker 8: And she had talked to me about a program called
Speaker 8: Mother Wound. Now, I thought she was just talking about
Speaker 8: the same one that she had done before. And she
Speaker 8: began encouraging me to do it. And I was not interested.
Speaker 8: I could tell she was kind of offended by that.
Speaker 8: She was hurt. I really think that she thought this
Speaker 8: was a journey that we were going to take part
Speaker 8: in together. But I wasn't feeling it. We were always
Speaker 8: sharing stuff on Instagram. Like, oh, you should follow this person.
Speaker 8: You should follow that person. And I believe that one
Speaker 8: of the pages that she really wanted me to look
Speaker 8: at was Leona Shanti's. And I do believe I followed her.
Speaker 8: One of the talking points that Lisa really brought up
Speaker 8: with me was that she was very Christ-centric, which I'm
Speaker 8: a Christian, and that she was very, like, anti-pornography. And
Speaker 8: I was like, oh, that's cool. All right. Yeah. So
Speaker 8: I followed her. I remember her also saying, like, she's very, like,
Speaker 8: anti-New Age, you know, just really focused on, like, the
Speaker 8: truths of Jesus Christ. I'm like, all right, great. Sounds
Speaker 8: good to me. But after things turned and I went
Speaker 8: back and looked at this woman's page, I was like,
Speaker 8: wait a minute. All of this is new age. I
Speaker 8: remember I didn't tell her. I didn't want to offend her.
Speaker 8: Because I thought, well, you know, if it's helping her,
Speaker 8: if it's beneficial to her, I'm not going to judge her.
Speaker 8: I think it's great. Those are kind of the conglomeration
Speaker 8: of the first memories I have of the Liana Shanti stuff.
Speaker 8: I think that it started out with the diet.
Speaker 7: And during that period of time, they're listening to Liana
Speaker 7: Shante's courses. Before you know it, they were sucked in.
Speaker 7: She's still listening to this woman 24-7. She has to
Speaker 7: be in order to stay in this state of mind.
Speaker 2: What you are about to hear next isn't a single
Speaker 2: isolated marital conflict. Across multiple interviews, some of which we
Speaker 2: will hear in later episodes, several people describe a similar
Speaker 2: dynamic coming out of the Liana Shanti community. A partner
Speaker 2: gets pulled deeper into the teachings, and the relationship begins
Speaker 2: to hinge on whether the other person will do the
Speaker 2: work too. These are personal accounts, and we can't independently
Speaker 2: verify every detail, But the pattern they describe is eerily consistent,
Speaker 2: even across interviews with people who have never crossed paths
Speaker 2: and never spoken to each other before.
Speaker 8: I don't want to go too much into things that
Speaker 8: Jo has shared. But basically, from what I understand, when
Speaker 8: she really began to get into the teachings of Liana,
Speaker 8: she had expressed to Jo that she didn't think it
Speaker 8: was going to work. And that if it was going
Speaker 8: to work between them, that he needed to get on
Speaker 8: board and he needed to pursue this healing journey with her.
Speaker 8: Joe was very blindsided by it. You know, they had
Speaker 8: lived in New York for a long time. New York
Speaker 8: is very expensive. Money was tight. And then they're living
Speaker 8: in North Carolina. Things are increasingly more just so affordable.
Speaker 8: They're going out to eat. They're enjoying themselves. And this
Speaker 8: was a whole new world for them. So when Lisa
Speaker 8: was like, yeah, I don't think it's going to work.
Speaker 8: I got to do whatever I need to do to
Speaker 8: save this. And so they did do the whole Liana
Speaker 8: Ashanti thing together. They decided to do the Health Mastery Institute.
Speaker 8: He quit his job. She got rid of her clients.
Speaker 8: He said the sound of Liana's voice became like, he's
Speaker 8: so triggered by it. He's like, I can't. He's like
Speaker 8: the hours upon hours upon hours that we listened to her.
Speaker 8: And Lisa was just eating it up. I don't know
Speaker 8: exactly when it was, but he said he had gotten
Speaker 8: to the point where he was suicidal. He would express
Speaker 8: how hard it was and, you know, his mental state,
Speaker 8: how it was declining. She would accuse him of trying
Speaker 8: to manipulate her instead of empathizing with him. And so
Speaker 8: he just said, I can't do this anymore. And he left.
Speaker 8: They did it for close to a year. They had
Speaker 8: moved to Florida because Tampa was on the list of okay,
Speaker 8: safe places. They both lost quite a bit of weight
Speaker 8: from these cleanses and diets. Joe was emaciated, emaciated. I
Speaker 8: believe the first recording she listened to was Mother Wound.
Speaker 8: I know she also listened to Father Wound, a big
Speaker 8: one for her when she also began pointing fingers at people.
Speaker 8: There's a recording about narcissists. Those are the ones that
Speaker 8: stand out to me. And she was listening to them
Speaker 8: over and over and over again, which is something that
Speaker 8: Leanne encourages. She says at the end, you know, put
Speaker 8: them on. Even if you're busy, just listen to it.
Speaker 8: Listen to it two or three more times. you know,
Speaker 8: today and just keep listening to it. In the summer
Speaker 8: of 2021, I was renovating a house. And while I
Speaker 8: was working on the kitchen floor, I decided to listen
Speaker 8: to the one on narcissists. I was a little concerned.
Speaker 8: I had heard a family members that chose to investigate because,
Speaker 8: you know, a family member disappeared and I wanted nothing
Speaker 8: to do with them. And then they got sucked in.
Speaker 8: So I prayed up before listening to it. I was
Speaker 8: kind of shocked. I I listened to it and I
Speaker 8: think to myself, how did my smart, not just smart,
Speaker 8: like brilliant sister, but you know, I suppose if you're
Speaker 8: just in a place and you're open and you listen
Speaker 8: to it enough and very like hypnotic and suggestive language.
Speaker 2: While Jack, Anne and Kristen were trying to reach Lisa,
Speaker 2: the story was playing out on another platform too. On
Speaker 2: Liana Shanti's own Instagram account, Jack was becoming a public figure,
Speaker 2: named fully, discussed and framed for an audience of thousands.
Speaker 2: On one occasion, Liana Shanti posted an Instagram story naming
Speaker 2: Jack's full name directly. It read, Urgent. Please pray for
Speaker 2: the safety of Milana. Jack, Milana's ex-father, is dangerous and
Speaker 2: we believe armed. Police are now involved. I can't give
Speaker 2: any more detail here. I will post his Florida info
Speaker 2: on the EFC website along with additional information. These Satanists
Speaker 2: are very dangerous people. Do not take any of this lightly.
Speaker 2: The source who saw that story has provided this evidence
Speaker 2: to us. On a separate occasion, Liana Shanti posted an
Speaker 2: Instagram story sharing a screenshot of a public Facebook comment
Speaker 2: written by Jack. In her caption she wrote, Thank you
Speaker 2: everyone for sending me tons of screenshots of defamation. A
Speaker 2: lot of these are things I didn't even have. Especially
Speaker 2: where these people contacted you in your DMs privately. Nikki
Speaker 2: just sent me this from Alana's dad, Jack. The comment
Speaker 2: she was calling defamation was this. Jack, writing publicly on Facebook.
Speaker 2: LS is a fraud and divides families for personal gain.
Speaker 2: I know because my daughter and her husband were buyers
Speaker 2: of her programs and put thousands of dollars to her
Speaker 2: and HMI. My son-in-law broke away and begged his wife
Speaker 2: to get out of this cult-like situation, but she refused.
Speaker 2: They make you believe family is the problem and fed
Speaker 2: lies to the point that people start to believe. My
Speaker 2: daughter was loved and now she's gone because of mind-manipulating bullshit.
Speaker 2: Liana Shanti labelled Jack's words defamation. She encouraged her followers
Speaker 2: to send her more of his online activity, and she
Speaker 2: named and described him to an audience that ran into
Speaker 2: the thousands. Across this series, former students and ex-community members
Speaker 2: have described concerns about repetition, suggestion, and what several have
Speaker 2: called a process of confirmation. having their existing beliefs reflected
Speaker 2: back and intensified. An archived version of Liana Shanti's own
Speaker 2: website captured by the Wayback Machine in September 2016 shows
Speaker 2: her writing the following about herself. I have studied NLP
Speaker 2: and also became a hypnotist. I have continued on in
Speaker 2: my studies on both neurogenesis and neuroplasticity and teach courses
Speaker 2: on these subjects. In more recent publicly available recordings, Liana
Speaker 2: Shanti denies this entirely. Here she is in her own words,
Speaker 2: describing her use of neuro-linguistic programming.
Speaker 1: There are plenty of stories of people being subjected to NLP. Okay,
Speaker 1: NLP is something I've been accused of doing.
Speaker 8: It's nothing bad. It's neuro-linguistic programming.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: I don't do.
Speaker 1: I've never studied. I... learned about it actually when I
Speaker 1: was in sales, because I was really good at sales
Speaker 1: and people thought I had studied it. And I said, no,
Speaker 1: I never did. And then I looked into it and
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, okay. I can see why people
Speaker 1: think that. So that's just ignorance on their part. Cause
Speaker 1: I never, I never studied. I don't do it. I,
Speaker 1: I do what I do and I'm not ever practicing
Speaker 1: convert hypnotism. I don't, I think she must've meant covert hypnotism.
Speaker 8: I don't do that either.
Speaker 1: I'm not a hypnotist and I don't have hypnosis sessions
Speaker 1: with people. People go through my programs and listen to
Speaker 1: my programs and they start to heal. There's a very
Speaker 1: well-known debunked theory called false memory syndrome. That was false
Speaker 1: memory syndrome was a lie concocted by a child molester,
Speaker 1: a man named Peter Freyd, F-R-E-Y-D, if anybody wants to
Speaker 1: look him up. And he claimed that his daughter, who
Speaker 1: was accusing him of raping her as a child, he said,
Speaker 1: you know what, this is a false memory.
Speaker 8: This was implanted.
Speaker 1: And after 30 years of trying to get that to
Speaker 1: be accepted, it was never accepted by the American Psychological
Speaker 1: Association or any other diagnostic psychological association.
Speaker 2: When Liana Shanti is confronted with concerns about memory formation
Speaker 2: inside her programs, She often points to something called false
Speaker 2: memory syndrome. She claims it was a debunked theory created
Speaker 2: by a man accused of abuse, and that it was
Speaker 2: never accepted by major psychological associations. But that framing leaves
Speaker 2: out important context. The term false memory syndrome itself was
Speaker 2: never adopted as an official diagnosis. That part is true.
Speaker 2: It does not appear in the DSM. The DSM stands
Speaker 2: for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It
Speaker 2: is the definitive playbook published by the American Psychiatric Association,
Speaker 2: or APA, used by healthcare and mental health professionals globally
Speaker 2: to diagnose and classify mental health conditions. However, the broader
Speaker 2: science of memory distortion is not controversial. It is well
Speaker 2: established in cognitive psychology that memory is reconstructive and not
Speaker 2: a perfect recording. Suggestion, repetition, authority figures and emotional intensity
Speaker 2: are can all influence how memories are formed, recalled or reframed.
Speaker 2: That does not mean abuse memories are false, it does
Speaker 2: not mean that survivors are mistaken, it means memory is complex.
Speaker 2: Mainstream psychology holds two truths at once. Child abuse is
Speaker 2: very real and tragically common, and human memory is also
Speaker 2: vulnerable to suggestion under certain conditions. Reducing that complexity to
Speaker 2: a moral argument that anyone who questions memory formation is
Speaker 2: defending abusers oversimplifies a nuanced scientific conversation. And in communities
Speaker 2: where authority figures confirm memories without independent evaluation and without
Speaker 2: holding the necessary qualifications, training, and credentials, that nuance becomes
Speaker 2: especially important.
Speaker 8: Lisa would say things like... The body never forgets. So
Speaker 8: she would say, I feel, I would feel uncomfortable around
Speaker 8: certain people. I would have these like flashes of a memory,
Speaker 8: but she couldn't identify who was responsible. Almost like she
Speaker 8: would have a memory of a feeling or a memory
Speaker 8: of a hand or a memory of a pressure or something.
Speaker 2: According to Kristen, when Lisa began to experience what she
Speaker 2: described as fragmentary memories while listening to the recordings, she
Speaker 2: sought guidance from Liana Shanti directly. And in Kristen's account,
Speaker 2: Liana Shanti confirmed those memories, telling Lisa they were real,
Speaker 2: naming who was responsible and telling her there were more.
Speaker 8: And when she began to experience these things while listening
Speaker 8: to the recordings and meditating, she asked, Leanne for confirmation.
Speaker 8: And Leanne said, yes, it did happen. And this is
Speaker 8: who it happened with. And there were more.
Speaker 7: One day she was Lisa and the next day she
Speaker 7: was a stranger. I noticed that she was posting things
Speaker 7: on her Facebook page that looked strange to me. And
Speaker 7: then I watched her starting to lose weight.
Speaker 6: She was married at the time.
Speaker 7: They still were coming to visit. And then all of
Speaker 7: a sudden, out of nowhere, it was, we need some
Speaker 7: healing time. We're going through a healing period. And they
Speaker 7: kind of just shut us out. And slowly, then the
Speaker 7: letters came, cutting us off.
Speaker 8: How did you go from that wonderful life to a
Speaker 8: computer and a mattress? She's not Lisa anymore. When Lisa
Speaker 8: wrote me a letter in the beginning of May of 2021,
Speaker 8: that we weren't going to speak, I just thought she
Speaker 8: was going through something. And I was like, all right, well,
Speaker 8: I'm going to give her her space. And then when
Speaker 8: my parents came to me in July and said, what's
Speaker 8: going on with Lisa and Joe? I thought, oh, man, they,
Speaker 8: you know, Lisa and Joe must have told my parents
Speaker 8: that they weren't speaking to me. And that must be
Speaker 8: what they're talking about. But it was actually that they
Speaker 8: wrote my mother and stepfather a letter. when my mother
Speaker 8: called me to talk about it, she was like, it's
Speaker 8: this Liana Shanti. Is this Liana? And I said, what
Speaker 8: are you talking about? And my mother said, it's her,
Speaker 8: it's her. And, you know, she was looking at things
Speaker 8: that Lisa was posting and she was looking how she
Speaker 8: had started a Twitter page. And she specifically said, I'm
Speaker 8: just here for Liana Shanti. And that's when we began
Speaker 8: putting the pieces together that it wasn't just, I need
Speaker 8: some time to heal and consider our family dynamic, but
Speaker 8: rather that she was very heavily influenced by someone that
Speaker 8: she was following. They were disconnecting from us.
Speaker 6: Four months, three months, three months.
Speaker 8: So it was about a period of, I would say March, April, May, June,
Speaker 8: because even June, my birthday, she was like, I hope
Speaker 8: you don't mind, but I'm not really sending presents this year.
Speaker 8: Happy birthday. That's what I got.
Speaker 6: Then it started with, almost a week later, I got
Speaker 6: this long letter.
Speaker 5: How.
Speaker 6: I learned that I was sexually abused by my father. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I'm reading this and I'm saying, is this about me?
Speaker 6: She's saying this? I mean, it was a three-page thing.
Speaker 6: I said, and I'm questioning, like, Ann, is she talking
Speaker 6: about me? She goes, yeah, I think so. That was
Speaker 6: a week later, we got another letter. And then we
Speaker 6: learned that Joe's, because we were close to Joe's parents,
Speaker 6: they got the same exact letter from Joe. His father
Speaker 6: would do anything for him. But the same thing. He
Speaker 6: was abused.
Speaker 2: Before we head into the next section, I need to
Speaker 2: give a trigger warning for sensitive content and allegations of
Speaker 2: child sexual abuse. Please listen with care and pause the
Speaker 2: recording if you need to. By this point, some followers
Speaker 2: weren't just changing their diets, routines or belief. They were
Speaker 2: being given entirely new names. According to Liana Shanti, these
Speaker 2: names carried spiritual significance and reflected a person's deeper identity.
Speaker 2: But for several former members we spoke to, the practice
Speaker 2: represented something else entirely, an increasingly powerful shift away from
Speaker 2: who they had been before joining the community. Lisa, who
Speaker 2: goes by her new Akashic name Milana Hokulani, has told
Speaker 2: her story in two places that are now part of
Speaker 2: the public record. on Liana Shanti's own podcast, Deep Throat,
Speaker 2: and by that I mean Throat Chakra, which she appeared
Speaker 2: on voluntarily, and in a legal document she filed herself
Speaker 2: with the Hawaii Family Court. On April 14th, 2023, Lisa
Speaker 2: filed a petition for an order of protection against her father, Jack,
Speaker 2: in the First Circuit Family Court of Hawaii. The petition
Speaker 2: was filed under penalty of perjury. In it, she described
Speaker 2: her experience as follows. My father groomed and sexually abused
Speaker 2: me when I was a child. My most vivid memory
Speaker 2: is when he anally raped me when I was six
Speaker 2: years old on my parents' bed while my mother was
Speaker 2: at work. I had stomach pains and trouble using the
Speaker 2: bathroom after this, and both of my parents took me
Speaker 2: to the hospital to get checked out and given rectal suppositories.
Speaker 2: That account, the stomach pains, the hospital visit, the suppositories,
Speaker 2: is the same incident Kristen will describe from the outset
Speaker 2: in a moment. Here, it is told by Lisa herself
Speaker 2: in a sworn legal document. Lisa's petition also describes the
Speaker 2: period between 2001 and 2023, stating, I cut off contact
Speaker 2: with my father in July 2021, and since then he
Speaker 2: has cyber-stalked, harassed and bullied me through my social media
Speaker 2: and online business. He's also harassed several colleagues and started
Speaker 2: an online smear campaign against me and my life coach.
Speaker 2: Lisa also described the reason she left Florida for Hawaii.
Speaker 2: She writes that it came to her attention, quote, that
Speaker 2: my father had been associating with people connected to violent
Speaker 2: kidnappers who help parents deprogram adult children. After January 8th,
Speaker 2: my father has even stated online that he's been on
Speaker 2: a mission to get me back and that I will
Speaker 2: need to be deprogrammed. Then he messaged me on March 11th, 2023.
Speaker 2: I just want no contact and to never see him again.
Speaker 2: Lisa requested a protective order lasting 30 years. A Honolulu
Speaker 2: Police Department officer encouraged her to file. On her relationship
Speaker 2: with her father, before the memories began surfacing, Lisa also
Speaker 2: spoke on Liana Shanti's own podcast, Deep Throat.
Speaker 9: I always felt I couldn't be close to him, like
Speaker 9: I was repelled.
Speaker 8: There wasn't closeness.
Speaker 9: We didn't spend one-on-one time together. Anytime I was alone
Speaker 9: with him... I felt, like, dressed, like, tight. Like I
Speaker 9: wasn't relaxed.
Speaker 2: On a remark her mother once made.
Speaker 9: And when I called my mom out on her drinking
Speaker 9: and was trying to kind of tell her how I
Speaker 9: felt about things that would come up when she was drinking.
Speaker 8: She deflected.
Speaker 9: And one of the things she said to me was, well,
Speaker 9: maybe one day.
Speaker 8: You'll talk to your father about.
Speaker 1: Him and his stuff.
Speaker 8: And what does that mean? I didn't probe.
Speaker 2: And on the memories themselves.
Speaker 9: There are things that have come to the surface that because,
Speaker 9: you know, my family.
Speaker 8: Knows that, you know.
Speaker 9: That basically it's like you're too young. You know, you're
Speaker 9: too young to have had these things come to the surface.
Speaker 8: There's no way.
Speaker 9: So it's a way to invalidate me.
Speaker 1: They know the truth.
Speaker 9: They know what they did. They know deep down.
Speaker 1: They know what they did. They all know what they did.
Speaker 1: Jesus knows what they did. And at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, people who are really willing to look and
Speaker 1: listen to victims will know what they did too.
Speaker 2: Those are Lisa's and Liana Shanti's words. She has shared
Speaker 2: them publicly and we report them as she told them.
Speaker 2: Jack categorically denies all of Lisa's allegations. He disputes that
Speaker 2: any abuse occurred. No criminal charges have ever been filed
Speaker 2: against Jack, and there has been no criminal conviction.
Speaker 8: I would love to talk about the biggest accusation with Jack.
Speaker 8: It is a great illustration of how memories are warped.
Speaker 8: Little bit of backstory. Lisa... suffered from pretty severe constipation
Speaker 8: when she was very small. I don't even think she
Speaker 8: was a year old. And so there were certain things
Speaker 8: that my mother would do. My mom would sit her
Speaker 8: on a little potty in front of Sesame Street and
Speaker 8: feed her little snacks on a tray just so she
Speaker 8: would relax and sit down and go. And the doctors
Speaker 8: prescribed laxatives and she was given suppositories, which I think
Speaker 8: The memory of the feeling of the insertion of a
Speaker 8: suppository has merged into something that it wasn't. Anyway, so
Speaker 8: now I'm working nights and he's working days. And he
Speaker 8: calls me at work one night and he said, Lisa
Speaker 8: is doubling over in pain.
Speaker 6: How old was she?
Speaker 8: She was around six. So I said, I'll leave work
Speaker 8: and I'll meet you at the hospital. So that's what
Speaker 8: we did. He took her to the hospital, and I
Speaker 8: met him there. They're going to see if there's any, like,
Speaker 8: hardening or obstruction. They may order an abdominal X-ray, which
Speaker 8: they will definitely see what's going on.
Speaker 7: We had her in the pediatrics area, and the doctors
Speaker 7: came to the conclusion that she was constipated. She wasn't
Speaker 7: having appendicitis or anything that we thought maybe could be happening.
Speaker 7: And they gave her a suppository and sent us on
Speaker 7: our way.
Speaker 8: That's it. That was it. Now, Lisa, now this is
Speaker 8: what she has shared online. She states that that afternoon,
Speaker 8: Jack sexually assaulted her on our parents' bed. And that
Speaker 8: it wasn't just, it wasn't just vaginal. It was anal.
Speaker 8: and that she was in excruciating pain due to that assault,
Speaker 8: he did take her to the emergency room where they
Speaker 8: diagnosed it as constipation. They administered a suppository and sent
Speaker 8: them home.
Speaker 7: If that truly happened, that she thinks she was molested
Speaker 7: or something from her father, don't you think that those
Speaker 7: physicians would have picked up on that? Child Protective Services
Speaker 7: would have been called in.
Speaker 8: There would have been a record. There would have been
Speaker 8: a follow-up. There was nothing. Because it never happened. If
Speaker 8: he was your abuser, if he had actually done this,
Speaker 8: would he take you to the emergency room where his
Speaker 8: secrets would be discovered? Now, I called that hospital back in,
Speaker 8: I think it was 2022. I said, let's just see
Speaker 8: if they had the medical records. And unfortunately, they had
Speaker 8: gotten rid of them. It was a very unusual number
Speaker 8: of years that they held on to medical records. And
Speaker 8: they would have gotten rid of those records, I want
Speaker 8: to say, just two or three years before the accusations
Speaker 8: online came out.
Speaker 2: Jack and his family deny these allegations completely. Lisa in
Speaker 2: her sworn court petition and in her public statements stands
Speaker 2: by her account. What we can report as a matter
Speaker 2: of verifiable fact is this. No criminal charges have ever
Speaker 2: been brought against Jack in connection with these allegations. The
Speaker 2: court that received Lisa's protection petition made no finding on
Speaker 2: the merits. The allegations are disputed. And the consequences didn't
Speaker 2: stop with one accusation. As contact with the family narrowed,
Speaker 2: life kept moving forward. And not everyone was there for it.
Speaker 8: Illness. Death.
Speaker 2: Milestones missed. Isolation has a cost. Sometimes it's measured in
Speaker 2: moments that never come back.
Speaker 6: He was close to his grandma and she was getting
Speaker 6: sick and the last time I posted I was able
Speaker 6: to message Joe. I said, your grandma is sick and
Speaker 6: she's wondering where Joey is. She passed away. He never
Speaker 6: saw her. So I bet you that's hurting him now too.
Speaker 6: And Lisa's brother passed away, my son, my oldest son, December,
Speaker 6: right after Christmas. I don't know if she knows. She
Speaker 6: might know. I don't know. But Joe didn't know until
Speaker 6: he got home that his grandma, that he was close to,
Speaker 6: passed away.
Speaker 7: Lisa also talked about she was drinking and she was
Speaker 7: hooked on drugs, suicidal. She was muted sometime in her
Speaker 7: life growing up.
Speaker 8: She was never hooked on drugs. She experimented like any
Speaker 8: other kid. Never hooked.
Speaker 7: When I had the daycare, I had a little girl, Jennifer.
Speaker 7: She was not verbal. She had scoliosis. She was born
Speaker 7: with many health issues. But she was the happiest little
Speaker 7: girl you ever met in your life.
Speaker 8: She'd get off that school bus and she'd have her
Speaker 8: backpack and she'd laugh. She'd go outside and play. She'd
Speaker 8: pick the flowers, but she never spoke. When Lisa came
Speaker 8: up with this thing that she was mute, the first
Speaker 8: thing that came to my head was, she is using Jennifer.
Speaker 8: And Jennifer passed away at 13. All I know is
Speaker 8: when Lisa came up with the story that she was
Speaker 8: mute at that age, the bell went off in my head.
Speaker 7: And I said, she's talking about Jennifer.
Speaker 8: She was never mute.
Speaker 2: According to Anne, those claims don't match the child that
Speaker 2: Anne remembers. but in a recorded conversation on Liana Shanti's podcast,
Speaker 2: Deep Throat, Lisa walks through her adolescence differently. Not as
Speaker 2: scattered teenage struggles, but as symptoms, signs, boxes to be checked.
Speaker 2: Here is an audio clip from that podcast episode of
Speaker 2: Lisa and Liana Shanti discussing this together.
Speaker 9: And I showed all the signs, repression, I had the suicidal,
Speaker 9: but if I just tick off the boxes, so there
Speaker 9: was you know, physical symptoms, tics, the suicide.
Speaker 1: You went mute for a summer too, right?
Speaker 8: Like a whole summer. Yeah.
Speaker 9: Like I get a little bit here and there I
Speaker 9: was talking, but you know, I wasn't myself depressed at
Speaker 9: high school. Then I, you know, ended up like hooked
Speaker 9: on weed, the numb, you know, I check off all the,
Speaker 9: all those boxes. It's all there, you know, but it's
Speaker 9: so normal in my family that, To drink and do drugs.
Speaker 9: And I was a participant in it.
Speaker 8: I was upholding all of it. I was drinking. I
Speaker 8: was doing the drugs. I was.
Speaker 9: Eating the shitty food and trying at certain points to
Speaker 9: let all that go, but never fully able to do it.
Speaker 2: And the allegations didn't stay private. As they were blasted
Speaker 2: all over the internet, they expanded into the family business,
Speaker 2: into reputations, livelihoods, and decades of work.
Speaker 8: So the house that we grew up in was a
Speaker 8: high ranch, and the downstairs had an apartment in it.
Speaker 8: So half of the downstairs was a private apartment, a
Speaker 8: legal private apartment. And after a lot of run-ins with
Speaker 8: some horrible tenants, my mother decided to pursue her dream
Speaker 8: to own a daycare. So Jack, being the carpenter that
Speaker 8: he was, he went in and he modified some of
Speaker 8: the walls and this and that, and they turned it
Speaker 8: into a daycare. I ran a daycare for 25 years.
Speaker 8: She tried to smear that. Many, many, many of my
Speaker 8: clients came forward and said beautiful things about me. And
Speaker 8: my business, the children, they all knew that that this
Speaker 8: never happened to Lisa. They saw her over the years.
Speaker 8: She used to come down and hang out with us
Speaker 8: and play. They talk about campaigns. I would hardly think
Speaker 8: that people expressing their opinions and looking for like minded
Speaker 8: folks is a campaign. However, my sister, what she did
Speaker 8: was absolutely a campaign. She went public. and created a
Speaker 8: online form that she was encouraging prior daycare, either the
Speaker 8: young people that went there or their parents who had
Speaker 8: children go there, to fill out. Because what she was
Speaker 8: trying to say was that our mother, not only was
Speaker 8: she aware of this imaginary abuse, but that she condoned it.
Speaker 8: She covered up for my stepfather's indiscretions and that the
Speaker 8: very bedroom that my sister was allegedly sodomized in was
Speaker 8: directly above the daycare. My mother ran that for over
Speaker 8: 20 years. And during those 20 years, not a single
Speaker 8: complaint was ever filed against her for any type of physical, mental, verbal,
Speaker 8: sexual abuse ever. Nothing but good things to say.
Speaker 6: She went to the courthouse and filed a petition of
Speaker 6: order of protection. That's when I got the letter that
Speaker 6: we had a court appearance online. I get up one
Speaker 6: Sunday morning, knock on the door, and there's eight cops,
Speaker 6: sheriffs all around my house, all ready to draw a gun.
Speaker 6: I swear, I was like, what the heck? He goes, well,
Speaker 6: I got to serve this letter, you know, order of protection,
Speaker 6: you know, to appear in court. And Lisa said, I
Speaker 6: have guns. So they were all prepared for a shootout,
Speaker 6: I guess. You know, we know you have guns in
Speaker 6: the house. You can either give them to us or
Speaker 6: you have to get them off the property until the
Speaker 6: case is done. I said, I'll get them off the property.
Speaker 6: So we appear online. And now I could see Lisa.
Speaker 6: She comes into the courtroom the way we're talking now.
Speaker 6: And I was like, Oh my God, it doesn't look
Speaker 6: like Lisa. So I turned around to the judge, like,
Speaker 6: you know, I said, this order of protection for what?
Speaker 6: And she turns around to Lisa. She goes, well, what
Speaker 6: are you doing? Well, I have her blocked on Facebook,
Speaker 6: but every now and then I'll friend him, but it
Speaker 6: takes 24 hours for me to block him again. The
Speaker 6: judge goes, you can't do that. So she goes, you
Speaker 6: have evidence. I said, I got a lot of evidence.
Speaker 6: All right, I'm going to postpone the court date. You
Speaker 6: gather your evidence. Your father will gather his. The next
Speaker 6: time we went to court, Lisa dropped it. So I
Speaker 6: had all this evidence ready to give to the judge,
Speaker 6: and now I couldn't send it in. We were in court.
Speaker 6: I said, I love you, Lisa. And then Lisa throws
Speaker 6: her water.
Speaker 5: See?
Speaker 6: He's stalking, whatever. And the judge goes, I can't do that. Well,
Speaker 6: I did, and that was it.
Speaker 2: Hawaii Family Court records confirm this. Lisa did file a
Speaker 2: petition for an order of protection against her father. filed
Speaker 2: April 14th, 2023, filed under penalty of perjury, filed in
Speaker 2: her own name, served with the assistance of the Honolulu
Speaker 2: Police Department. But those same court records also show that
Speaker 2: 12 days later, on April 26th, Lisa filed a motion
Speaker 2: to dissolve that petition herself. She wrote to the court, quote,
Speaker 2: I must dissolve my request for an order of protection.
Speaker 2: When I recently came to Hawaii, this put 6,000 miles
Speaker 2: between us. and I'm choosing to find some relief in
Speaker 2: that at this time. The court made no finding on
Speaker 2: the merits. That protective order was not dismissed by a judge.
Speaker 2: It was withdrawn by Lisa. Lisa described that, now she
Speaker 2: had put 6,000 miles between herself and her family, she
Speaker 2: wanted to try and find some relief in that distance.
Speaker 2: But on Lajana Shanti's own podcast platform, the same events
Speaker 2: were framed very differently.
Speaker 1: So today I have a really amazing woman. This woman
Speaker 1: to me is the epitome of everything that Jesus speaks
Speaker 1: about when he talks about someone who is brave, someone
Speaker 1: who is courageous, someone who is standing in the light
Speaker 1: of Jesus, someone who is willing to put themselves out
Speaker 1: there despite the attacks, despite the slander, and despite an
Speaker 1: all-out effort by her family to completely quiet and silence her.
Speaker 1: and going to great lengths to do that. And she
Speaker 1: has been thriving. She's an amazing, amazing human being. And
Speaker 1: unfortunately today, she's coming to us on the podcast from
Speaker 1: an undisclosed location because just a couple of days ago,
Speaker 1: there was a very serious attempt to bring her back
Speaker 1: into the family cult. And I can't go into details
Speaker 1: about that because it involves legal issues, but we are
Speaker 1: literally talking... to her today from an undisclosed location.
Speaker 2: After the accusations, the court filings, the podcasts, what remains
Speaker 2: is something quieter. A family still speaking into the silence.
Speaker 6: I would like to say that we're still here. I
Speaker 6: love you very much. I hope everything's well for you,
Speaker 6: but at least let's talk about what you're allocating against me.
Speaker 6: I mean, you know, let me have my say. It's
Speaker 6: only one way.
Speaker 8: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 6: I even mentioned to Leanna, you know, posted on there
Speaker 6: and all that, you know, to get it out there.
Speaker 6: Let's do a podcast. I know it'll never happen, but
Speaker 6: why don't you get me on there with Lisa and
Speaker 6: let's do a podcast. You can ask me anything you
Speaker 6: want because if somebody molested somebody, they would hide from it.
Speaker 6: They would not be out in the public. You know,
Speaker 6: I got nothing to hide.
Speaker 7: And I hope to God somewhere along the way she
Speaker 7: comes out of this. We'll always be here, but it'll
Speaker 7: never be the same, unfortunately. I just hope God is
Speaker 7: watching over her.
Speaker 6: I just wish I could hold you or see you
Speaker 6: before I die. I'm not that young anymore. That's the
Speaker 6: one thing I want to see. That's what I want.
Speaker 6: I just want her back into my life. It's going
Speaker 6: to be different. I mean, but we're here to help anything.
Speaker 8: Well, I think some of the best advice that I
Speaker 8: received was remember that they are victims. That has been
Speaker 8: helpful because you want to retaliate. You want to be angry.
Speaker 8: Moving forward, I would like for her to just feel free,
Speaker 8: like pursue, be joyful, be happy. Because I think ultimately
Speaker 8: if she is pursuing something, And she does feel free
Speaker 8: and she doesn't feel under threat that she is more
Speaker 8: likely to come to the truth. You know, it's very
Speaker 8: easy if someone's in a fearful state to manipulate them.
Speaker 8: So nobody's pursuing her. We just want the best for her. And,
Speaker 8: you know, yeah, we're probably still going to say Liana
Speaker 8: Shanti is not someone that anyone should be following or
Speaker 8: listening to because we've seen the destructive patterns. If you
Speaker 8: want to speak your truth, we're going to speak ours.
Speaker 8: It's so encouraging looking at Joe. Because he's come out
Speaker 8: of it and he and it took some time, but
Speaker 8: he's healed physically, financially, mentally, spiritually, familially, like his family.
Speaker 8: They're great. Like he's in a wonderful place. And. You
Speaker 8: know that to the point that you said as well,
Speaker 8: that like you don't have that closure, like if someone dies.
Speaker 8: That's that. But to know that they are somewhat close. So,
Speaker 8: you know, that's something he and I have talked about
Speaker 8: as well. It's just to sit down and talk with her.
Speaker 8: And to know that she's there. But you can't. It's weird.
Speaker 8: It's really strange. But I am hopeful. One day. We've
Speaker 8: spoke to Joe when he got out at the beginning.
Speaker 8: But he's got to get on with his life.
Speaker 3: And.
Speaker 8: You can't keep reminding him and pulling this stuff out
Speaker 8: of the closet. He's young. He's half our age. He
Speaker 8: has his whole life ahead of him. He finally got
Speaker 8: a good job. He found himself a nice girlfriend. He's
Speaker 8: got to get on. But I have to say, we
Speaker 8: didn't only lose a daughter. We lost a wonderful son-in-law.
Speaker 8: When's the last time she went out to dinner? When's
Speaker 8: the last time she took a walk on a beach?
Speaker 8: When's the last time she went shopping? She orders everything
Speaker 8: to be delivered to her door. She doesn't go out there.
Speaker 8: She was completely isolated. Joe said it.
Speaker 7: He said the only thing we ever did was walk
Speaker 7: around the property at the condo they were living in.
Speaker 8: They never went out. I can sit here and sometimes
Speaker 8: imagine the door, knock at the door, and I open it,
Speaker 8: and it's hard.
Speaker 6: But... I don't know.
Speaker 8: Would that ever happen? In my lifetime?
Speaker 6: I don't know.
Speaker 8: I don't know. That's the hardest part, I think. We're
Speaker 8: not young.
Speaker 2: Isolation doesn't always look like a locked room. Sometimes it
Speaker 2: looks like delivery boxes at the front door. Sometimes it
Speaker 2: looks like silence stretching across birthdays, funerals, years. For this family,
Speaker 2: the fracture isn't abstract. It's the space between a father
Speaker 2: and his daughter. A mother and her daughter. An older
Speaker 2: sister and and her younger sibling. And the hardest part
Speaker 2: isn't what Lisa has said, it's what hasn't been said.
Speaker 2: But for some families, waiting wasn't the only option.
Speaker 5: I see everything burning down around me. Because I had
Speaker 5: to stay undercover, I could not reveal what I know.
Speaker 5: I can't tell my children, I can't tell my in-laws
Speaker 5: what I know. I'm asking my in-laws for help. And
Speaker 5: at all this time, they're telling me the totally opposite
Speaker 5: than what I'm seeing inside the group. So I see
Speaker 5: my whole life, my whole world burning down.
Speaker 2: In the next episode of The Insta Scammer, we hear
Speaker 2: how some family members decided to take a different approach,
Speaker 2: stepping anonymously inside the community to understand what was happening
Speaker 2: to their loved ones from within. Join us next time
Speaker 2: for episode five of The Insta Scammer.