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<v Speaker 1>Hey there, and welcome to the deep dive. This is

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<v Speaker 1>where we take complex topics and well really dive into

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<v Speaker 1>them for you. We try to bring you the most

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<v Speaker 1>crucial insights, maybe some surprising facts along the way. Today

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<v Speaker 1>we're tackling something that can bring entire online services just

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<v Speaker 1>grinding to a halt. You can disrupt critical infrastructure and

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<v Speaker 1>it's even used in believe it or not, cyber warfare.

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<v Speaker 1>We're talking distributed denial of service ATTACKSS.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a phenomenon that's really evolved dramatically since the

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<v Speaker 2>early Internet days. It's become this persistent threat and honestly

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<v Speaker 2>a pretty financially impactful one too. For this deep dive,

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<v Speaker 2>our insights are coming from a really comprehensive source, the

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<v Speaker 2>textbook Distributed Denial of Service Attacks, Real World Detection and

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<v Speaker 2>Mitigation by A. Luker Esselek and Richard Arbrooks.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So, our mission today is to truly unpack what

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<v Speaker 1>DEAs attacks actually are. You know, why there's still such

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<v Speaker 1>a big problem. We'll get into how these attacks are

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<v Speaker 1>executed and maybe more importantly, what cutting edge strategies are

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<v Speaker 1>out there to detect and mitigate them. Hopefully you'll walk

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<v Speaker 1>away from this well informed, maybe ready to understand those

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<v Speaker 1>headlines a bit better and perhaps with a new appreciation

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<v Speaker 1>for just how complex our digital world is under the hood. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so let's unpack this core idea first. When we talk

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<v Speaker 1>about Adidas attack, it's way more than just a website

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<v Speaker 1>crashing temporarily. It's about deliberately denying you, the legitimate user

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<v Speaker 1>access access to an online service or a system. Think

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<v Speaker 1>of it maybe like a digital sit in. Instead of

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<v Speaker 1>blocking a physical door, attackers or just flooding the digital

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<v Speaker 1>entrance to a server making it impossible for anyone else.

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<v Speaker 2>To get in exactly. That's a great analogy. The core

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<v Speaker 2>goal is what we call resource saturation. Attackers basically try

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<v Speaker 2>to consume as much of a victim's critical resources as

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<v Speaker 2>they possibly can. That could be system resources think CPU memory,

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<v Speaker 2>disk space, or network resources like bandwidth, just overwhelming them.

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<v Speaker 2>And what's really striking, I think, is how the motivations

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<v Speaker 2>behind these attacks have changed over time. You know, initially

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<v Speaker 2>it might have just been curiosity pranks even but today

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<v Speaker 2>we're seeing highly organized criminal enterprises, geopolitical aims, even nation

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<v Speaker 2>states getting involved.

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<v Speaker 1>That evolution is pretty stark, isn't it. From like you

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<v Speaker 1>said pranks to actual cyber warfare between nations. It really

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<v Speaker 1>makes you wonder, with how much we rely on the internet. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>why is this still such an ongoing issue. Why is

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<v Speaker 1>it so impactful economically socially? What makes DDAs so hard

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<v Speaker 1>to stop?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the sources point to three sort of fundamental reasons. First,

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<v Speaker 2>they're relatively easy for attackers to actually pull off. The

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<v Speaker 2>tools and resources are unfortunately quite available. Second, it's incredibly

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<v Speaker 2>difficult to identify and trace the actual attackers. They have

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of anonymity. And Third, despite all the cybersecurity

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<v Speaker 2>advancements we've made, it's still profoundly challenging for organizations to

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<v Speaker 2>fully protect themselves against a really determined, large scale DDoS attack.

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<v Speaker 1>It's interesting too, thinking about the history. The whole idea

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<v Speaker 1>of denial of service actually goes way back, even before computers.

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<v Speaker 1>Groups like the leddie sabotaging automated looms right or civil

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<v Speaker 1>rights movements using sit ins to physically block spaces to disrupt

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<v Speaker 1>normal activities. Digital didas attacks feel almost like a translation

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<v Speaker 1>of that into the network world.

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<v Speaker 2>Indeed, it's a modern echo of those older tactics. The

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<v Speaker 2>first widely documented digital denial of service attack was Back

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<v Speaker 2>in nineteen ninety six, an ISP in New York called

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<v Speaker 2>Panics got hit with something called a syn flood for

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<v Speaker 2>several days.

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<v Speaker 1>S yn flood, what's that exactly?

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<v Speaker 2>Ah right? It exploits the way computers start a connection.

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<v Speaker 2>It's called the TCP three way handshake. The attacker sends

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<v Speaker 2>tons of initial connection requests but never finishes the process,

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<v Speaker 2>so the server gets overwhelmed holding all these half open connections.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so just clogging the pipes from the very start exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And in Panics's case, it was apparently retaliation because they

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<v Speaker 2>installed one of the first spam filters on their email system.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. So even back then it was about digital disruption

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<v Speaker 1>as a response. But then things got really interesting, didn't they.

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<v Speaker 1>The event that sort of shifted public perception you're.

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<v Speaker 2>Probably thinking of February two thousand. Yeah, that's when DIDOS

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<v Speaker 2>really entered a new era. A fifteen year old from Montreal,

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<v Speaker 2>Michael Calcea, alias Mafia Boy, launched attacks that took down

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<v Speaker 2>huge names Yahoo, Amazon, Dell, eBay, CNN.

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<v Speaker 1>Fifteen years old.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and the estimated damage was just staggering. Figures ranged

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<v Speaker 2>from like seven point five million dollars up to maybe

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<v Speaker 2>one point seven billion dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>Incredible. That must have been a massive wake up call.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, it absolutely was. The Mafia Boy attack wasn't just big.

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<v Speaker 2>It showed how one person, not even particularly sophisticated technically,

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<v Speaker 2>could cripple Internet giants. It permanently shifted cybersecurity from being

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<v Speaker 2>this niche. It worry to well a national imperative. Funding spiked,

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<v Speaker 2>awareness grew, and the reason we see so many large

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<v Speaker 2>scale attacks today, that's largely down to the rise of botanets.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. Botanets those sound ominous, What are they exactly?

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<v Speaker 2>They're essentially privately run networks of compromised machines, hacked computers, servers,

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<v Speaker 2>even IoT devices now all acting as bots, and the

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<v Speaker 2>services of these botnets, the ability to launch attacks using

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<v Speaker 2>them are often sold online for profit.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's a whole criminal ecosystem built around these things,

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<v Speaker 1>It really is.

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<v Speaker 2>The life cycle usually starts with an initial infection, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>your click a bad link, download something sketchy from a

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<v Speaker 2>P to P network, or open a malicious email attachment.

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<v Speaker 2>Then there's a secondary step where the compromise machine downloads

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<v Speaker 2>the actual botnet software, turns into a functioning bot ready

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<v Speaker 2>to take commands.

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<v Speaker 1>In these networks, they can be set up differently, right

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<v Speaker 1>the command and control, the C and C structure exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>You have different topologies. Some are centralized, with one main

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<v Speaker 2>server calling the shots, easy to manage but also a

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<v Speaker 2>single point of failure. Others use multiple servers, maybe spread

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<v Speaker 2>out geographically or across different legal jurisdictions to make them

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<v Speaker 2>harder to take down. Then you've got decentralized ones using

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<v Speaker 2>peer to peer protocols much harder to disrupt, and even

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<v Speaker 2>hybrid models combining approaches.

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<v Speaker 1>It's quite sophisticated, which leads right into this idea of

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<v Speaker 1>d dos for hire, a service people can buy.

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<v Speaker 2>Disturbingly, yes, there's a thriving market. Back in twenty seventeen,

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<v Speaker 2>you could reportedly buy five minutes of a massive one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and twenty five gigabits per second attack for just

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<v Speaker 2>five euros.

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<v Speaker 1>Five euros. That's alarmingly accessible, it is.

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<v Speaker 2>And the price for renting these botnets has actually been

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<v Speaker 2>falling by about five percent each year since around twenty fourteen.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just widespread availability competition among the bothereders, the people

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<v Speaker 2>who run the botnets. A really notable example was the

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<v Speaker 2>attack on spam House in March twenty thirteen. Spam House

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<v Speaker 2>tracks spam servers, so they made enemies. That attack hit

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<v Speaker 2>three hundred gbps, which was huge at the time, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was amplified partly by exploiting vulnerabilities in DNS, the

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<v Speaker 2>Internet's phone book, and even by infecting home routers.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. So beyond just making MONEYDIDOS has also become a

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<v Speaker 1>political weapon, right This activism.

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<v Speaker 2>Phenomenon absolutely Groups like the Electronic Disturbance Theater or EDT.

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<v Speaker 2>They sort of pioneered the idea of virtual sit in

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<v Speaker 2>with a tool called flubnet, basically encouraging online line protests

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<v Speaker 2>via flooding.

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<v Speaker 1>Websites, which raises a tricky question, doesn't it. Where's the

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<v Speaker 1>line between legitimate digital protest, maybe civil disobedience, and just

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<v Speaker 1>illegal destruction.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a critical point and often a blurry line. Legally

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<v Speaker 2>and ethically, you had groups like Anonymous using DDoS their

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<v Speaker 2>project Schnology against Scientology, Operation Titstorm against the Australian Parliament

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<v Speaker 2>over Internet filtering plans, and Operation Payback targeting credit card

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<v Speaker 2>companies because they blocked donations to wiki leagues. From a

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<v Speaker 2>purely legal standpoint, though participating in a DDoS attack is

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<v Speaker 2>considered illegal pretty much everywhere in the US. You have

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<v Speaker 2>the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Internationally, the Convention on

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<v Speaker 2>Cybercrime covers.

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<v Speaker 1>It, and then the stakes get even higher when actual

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<v Speaker 1>nation states use these tactics. That really blurs the line

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<v Speaker 1>between cybercrime and well war.

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely. The conflict between Russia and Estonia back in April

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and seven is often cited as maybe the

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<v Speaker 2>first real cyber war involving DDoS. Then in two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and eight, Russia launched large scale adido's floods against Georgian

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<v Speaker 2>news and government sites right as a military invasion was happening.

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<v Speaker 2>In Ukraine, there were ddo's attacks in two thousand and

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<v Speaker 2>eight linked to anti NATO feelings, and in twenty fifteen,

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<v Speaker 2>a major hacking incident, likely involving denial of service elements,

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<v Speaker 2>knocked parts of the Ukrainian power grid offline power grids.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, that's way beyond.

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<v Speaker 2>Websites exactly, and beyond direct attacks. We also see the

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<v Speaker 2>Internet used for widespread censorship, sometimes through related techniques, things

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<v Speaker 2>like BGP hijacking, which messes with the Internet's core routing.

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<v Speaker 2>Remember Pakistan trying to block YouTube in two thousand and eight.

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<v Speaker 1>Vaguely yeah, what happened there?

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<v Speaker 2>They accidentally re routed YouTube traffic globally, making it unavailable

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<v Speaker 2>worldwide for about two hours, a mistake with massive consequences. Similarly,

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<v Speaker 2>Iranian sensors trying to block pornography sites accidentally blocked access

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<v Speaker 2>for users in India, Russia, Indonesia, Hong Kong. And then

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<v Speaker 2>you have the really alarming Internet blackouts where entire countries

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<v Speaker 2>or regions just go dark online, often done by authoritarian

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<v Speaker 2>governments trying to control information flow during protests or unrest.

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<v Speaker 2>Just in twenty fifteen alone, these kinds of Internet shutdowns

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<v Speaker 2>were estimated to cost the global economy something like two

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<v Speaker 2>point four billion dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>Just dat it's cleared the Internet, which was designed for openness,

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<v Speaker 1>for connection, can easily be twisted into this powerful tool

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<v Speaker 1>for control and disruption. We've seen the impact silencing descent

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<v Speaker 1>global outages. It's huge. But to really grasp how these

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<v Speaker 1>attacks cause such chaos, we probably need to dive deeper

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<v Speaker 1>into the technical side. How do they actually work?

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<v Speaker 2>Let's do it so fundamentally, when attackers go for resource saturation,

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<v Speaker 2>they're just trying to use up all the victims computing

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<v Speaker 2>power or network capacity, simple brute force. Really, these are

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<v Speaker 2>often easy to launch, but notoriously hard to stop once

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<v Speaker 2>they get going. Examples include things like HTTP floods, just

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<v Speaker 2>sending way too many web page requests to exhaust the server,

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<v Speaker 2>or what are called layer seven protocol floods. These are

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<v Speaker 2>a bit more targeted, going after specific weaknesses and applications

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<v Speaker 2>running on the server.

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<v Speaker 1>Layer seven that's the application layer, right, the server software.

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<v Speaker 2>Itself exactly, So instead of just flooding the network pipes,

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<v Speaker 2>they might exploit how the application handles connections, things like

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<v Speaker 2>database connection pool exhaustion making the application run out of

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<v Speaker 2>ways to talk to its database, or SSL exhaustion overwhelming

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<v Speaker 2>the server's ability to handle secure encrypted connections. They're more subtle,

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<v Speaker 2>but can be just as effective.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, and you mentioned earlier. These volume based attacks fall

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<v Speaker 1>into two main types, symmetric and asymmetric.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. In a symmetric DDoS attack, the attacker, usually

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<v Speaker 2>using a botnet, directly sends a massive flood of basically

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<v Speaker 2>junk traffic street at the victim. You generally need a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of compromise machines hundreds or thousands to generate enough

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<v Speaker 2>volume to overwhelm the target's network connection.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, direct fire, what about asymmetric You said that was

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<v Speaker 1>more insidious.

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<v Speaker 2>It really is. Asymmetric didas attacks are also known as

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<v Speaker 2>reflection and amplification attacks. This is where it gets clever

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<v Speaker 2>and dangerous. Here. The attacker doesn't send traffic directly from

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<v Speaker 2>their box to the victim. Instead, they abuse other innocent

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<v Speaker 2>servers on the Internet, things like public DNS servers, NTP

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<v Speaker 2>time servers, or memcash servers that aren't properly secured or configured.

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<v Speaker 1>How do they abuse them?

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<v Speaker 2>They send small requests to these third party servers, but

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<v Speaker 2>they spoofed the return address, making it look like the

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<v Speaker 2>request came from the victim. These servers then send back

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<v Speaker 2>much larger responses to the victim. That's the reflection part.

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<v Speaker 2>The amplification comes because the response is often many times

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<v Speaker 2>larger than the initial spoofed request.

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<v Speaker 1>Ah So a small effort from the attacker triggers a

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<v Speaker 1>huge flood aimed at the victim, bounced off unsuspecting servers.

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<v Speaker 2>Precisely, this means just a few attacker resources maybe a

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<v Speaker 2>small botnet, can generate absolutely massive amounts of attack traffic.

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<v Speaker 2>Like that attack in March twenty eighteen, they used misconfigured

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<v Speaker 2>mem cased servers. The amplification factor there is huge. That

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<v Speaker 2>attack reached a staggering one point seven terabits per second,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the biggest single attacks ever recorded.

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<v Speaker 1>One point seven terabits. Yeah, that's an unamis adgable amount

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<v Speaker 1>of data.

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<v Speaker 2>It really is. And attackers also exploit fundamental weaknesses in

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<v Speaker 2>core Internet protocols. You mentioned TCP earlier.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this is yn flood thing, exploiting the handshake.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, that's a classic TCP based attack. The attacker sends

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<v Speaker 2>loads of initial syn packets, making the server open connections

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<v Speaker 2>and weight, but the attacker uses fake source addresses and

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<v Speaker 2>never sends the final acknowledgment to complete the handshake. So

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<v Speaker 2>the server just sits there with all these half open connections,

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<v Speaker 2>using up resources until eventually legitimate users can't connect anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>So they're weaponizing the protocol itself exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's not just about flooding networks or protocols. Attackers

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<v Speaker 2>can also use specially crafted packets or applications to hit

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<v Speaker 2>specific software bugs. Remember back in twenty eleven, a security

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<v Speaker 2>researcher released a simple Perl script kill apatch dot pl vaguely. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's sent very specific types of HTTP requests that could

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<v Speaker 2>basically crash certain versions of the Apache Web server by

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<v Speaker 2>making them consume all the CPU and memory a targeted

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<v Speaker 2>software vulnerable exploit.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, and beyond traffic and software bugs, there's also this

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<v Speaker 1>idea of filtering based denial of service, right.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a bit broader. It can even include things like

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<v Speaker 2>legal action, maybe authorities demanding a server be taken down.

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<v Speaker 2>That is denying service technically, but technically it also includes

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<v Speaker 2>things like DNS tampering. If an attacker can hijack control

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<v Speaker 2>of your DNS servers or poison the cash of other

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<v Speaker 2>DNS servers.

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<v Speaker 1>They can redirect your users anywhere or nowhere, denying access that.

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<v Speaker 2>Way exactly, or they can misdirect traffic. There are also

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<v Speaker 2>more refined filtering methods, like URL filtering that could be

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<v Speaker 2>based on simple blacklists or whitelists, or it could be

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<v Speaker 2>more analysis based using deep packet inspection, looking inside the

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<v Speaker 2>data packets for specific keywords or content types to block.

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<v Speaker 1>So lots of ways to deny service digitally, but you

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned earlier, it can even extend into the physical realm.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and This is where it gets particularly chilling. We've

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<v Speaker 2>seen how attackers can overwhelm networks or manipulate data flows,

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<v Speaker 2>but denial of service isn't just digital. It can involve

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<v Speaker 2>physical destruction triggered remotely using digital tools. The most famous

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<v Speaker 2>or infamous example is probably the stucks networm back in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty ten, ah.

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<v Speaker 1>Stucks net that targeted Eran's nuclear program. Right it did.

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<v Speaker 2>It's spread through Windows networks, but specifically targeted Siemens industrial

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<v Speaker 2>control software Step seven. It's estimated to have physically destroyed

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<v Speaker 2>over nine hundred uranium enrichment centrifuges in Iranian facilities by

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<v Speaker 2>subtlely manipulating their speeds, cause something like a thirty percent

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<v Speaker 2>efficiency loss.

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<v Speaker 1>Physically destroying hardware through software.

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<v Speaker 2>It shows how these threats evolved, blurring the lines between

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<v Speaker 2>cyber and physical. Attackers are constantly finding new angles, new weaknesses.

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<v Speaker 1>And to launch all these different types of attacks, they've

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<v Speaker 1>got a whole toolkit.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Oh, absolutely, a whole arsenal. Historically, back in ninety nine,

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<v Speaker 2>you had tools like TRINDS zero and Tribe Flood Network

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<v Speaker 2>or TFN. They exploited common vulnerabilities like buffer overflows to

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<v Speaker 2>launch various flood attacks. More recently, you've seen tools like

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<v Speaker 2>GoldenEye from around twenty twelve. That one focused on HTTP

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<v Speaker 2>and HTTPS doss testing. It cleverly exploited things like HTB

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<v Speaker 2>keep Alive and no cash settings to make servers exhaust

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<v Speaker 2>their resources keeping connections open. Then there's hoechule K, also

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<v Speaker 2>from twenty twelve. That's an application layered doss tool designed

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<v Speaker 2>to be sneaky. It generates unique requests each time and

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<v Speaker 2>can randomize source IP addresses to try and bypass detection systems.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course, for simpler attacks often used in those

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<v Speaker 2>activist campaigns, there's the well known low orbit Ion canon

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<v Speaker 2>or LOIC. Pretty basic but can be effective in numbers.

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<v Speaker 1>So arrange from simple flutters to quite sophisticated.

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<v Speaker 2>Tools definitely, and tools like H and three are like

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<v Speaker 2>Swiss army knives for network packets. They let users craft

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<v Speaker 2>custom TCPIP packets to launch all sorts of layer three

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<v Speaker 2>or layer four floods hitting the network in transport layers.

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<v Speaker 2>And for those reflection amplification attacks we talked about, there

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<v Speaker 2>are specific tools too, like the Saddam d DOS tool.

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<v Speaker 2>It can be configured to use d or NTP servers

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<v Speaker 2>for that amplification effect. You can actually see it working.

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<v Speaker 2>If you capture the network traffic on the victims in

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<v Speaker 2>you'll see all the DNS or NTP replies flooding in.

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<v Speaker 1>It's kind of amazing and scary how many tools are

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<v Speaker 1>out there.

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<v Speaker 2>It is, and it raises that crucial question of again,

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<v Speaker 2>what's the shared vulnerability? Why are so many different protocols

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<v Speaker 2>DNS ANDTP, memecash, even TCP itself seemingly so easy to

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<v Speaker 2>exploit for these attacks. Why haven't we fixed these fundamental issues.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a great question, and it really speaks to the

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<v Speaker 1>scale of this challenge. Okay, so we know the attacks

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<v Speaker 1>are very sophisticated and the tools are available. How on

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<v Speaker 1>earth do we defend against all this? It must start

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<v Speaker 1>with just knowing you're under attack, right detection exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Detection is the first critical step, and generally detection methods

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<v Speaker 2>fall into three main categories. First is signature detection. This

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<v Speaker 2>works kind of like your antivirus software. It looks for

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<v Speaker 2>known patterns or signatures of DDoS attack traffic. Good for

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<v Speaker 2>known threats, but useless against new ones.

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<v Speaker 1>Right it needs to have seen the attack precisely.

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<v Speaker 2>Second is anomaly detection. This approach doesn't look for specific signatures. Instead,

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<v Speaker 2>it establishes a baseline of what your normal network traffic

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<v Speaker 2>looks like and then watches for significant deviations from that baseline.

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<v Speaker 2>It looks at statistics like sudden spikes in packet arrival rates,

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<v Speaker 2>or changes in the distribution of source IP addresses, or

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<v Speaker 2>even the randomness of certain data fields in the packet headers.

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<v Speaker 2>And the third type hybrid systems. As the name suggests,

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<v Speaker 2>these try to combine the strength of both signature and

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<v Speaker 2>anomaly detection. Use signatures for known attacks, anomaly detection to

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<v Speaker 2>catch the unknown ones.

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<v Speaker 1>Anomaly detection sounds really powerful, especially for those zero day attacks,

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<v Speaker 1>the brand new ones. You mentioned entropy earlier. Can you

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<v Speaker 1>break that down a bit more? How does measuring randomness

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<v Speaker 1>help spot and attack?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure? So, anomaly detection is crucial for zero days, even

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<v Speaker 2>though it can sometimes generate more false positives. Flagging normal

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<v Speaker 2>traffic is bad. One common statistical method used is cumulative

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<v Speaker 2>sum or CUS. It's good at detecting small but persistent

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<v Speaker 2>increases in traffic volume that might get lost in the

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<v Speaker 2>usual noisy bursts of Internet traffic. Then there's entropy. This

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<v Speaker 2>comes from information theory, and basically it's a measure of

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<v Speaker 2>disorder or unpredictability in data. Think about source IP addresses

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<v Speaker 2>in normal traffic. They tend to come from all over

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<v Speaker 2>the place, fairly randomly distributed, high entropy. But during many

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<v Speaker 2>types of DEDOS attacks, especially from botanets, you might suddenly

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<v Speaker 2>see a huge flood of traffic coming from a relatively

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<v Speaker 2>small predictable set of source ips.

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<v Speaker 1>The randomness drops, ah, so the entropy the source iepiece goes.

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<v Speaker 2>Way down exactly. That sudden drop in entropy is a

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<v Speaker 2>strong signal that something unnatural, something non random, is happening,

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<v Speaker 2>like an attack. The tricky part with detection, though, is

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<v Speaker 2>where you do it. It's most accurate closer to the target

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<v Speaker 2>where you see the traffic consolidation, but by then.

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<v Speaker 1>It might be too late to actually stop it effectively.

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<v Speaker 2>Right the flood might already be overwhelming your connection or

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<v Speaker 2>your servers.

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<v Speaker 1>Which leads us straight into mitigation. Once you detect that attack,

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<v Speaker 1>what can you actually do and how do you balance

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<v Speaker 1>needing strong defenses with the cost and complexity of it all.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the million dollar question. Mitigation strategies get classified in

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<v Speaker 2>lots of ways. You can think about when they happen.

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<v Speaker 2>Are they preventative, do they react during an attack or

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<v Speaker 2>is it clean up after? Or how they're deployed centralized

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<v Speaker 2>defense or distributed, or where they're located protecting at the

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<v Speaker 2>source of the traffic near the destination, somewhere in the

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<v Speaker 2>network core or a hybrid, and increasingly where the reaction happens.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it equipment on your own premises where services running

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<v Speaker 2>in the cloud. A lot of modern mitigation heavily leverages

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<v Speaker 2>the cloud. Content delivery networks CDNs are a big one.

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<v Speaker 1>CDNs yeah, like Akamaine cloud Flare are those guys. They're

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<v Speaker 1>used for speeding up websites.

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<v Speaker 2>Mostly right primarily, Yes, their main job is to cache

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<v Speaker 2>website content on servers all around the world closer to

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<v Speaker 2>users to improve load times and performance. But that distributed

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<v Speaker 2>architecture inherently makes them pretty good at absorbing DEDOS attacks too.

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<v Speaker 2>Running the incoming traffic across this huge network of servers,

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<v Speaker 2>they can dissipate the effect of an attack. It makes

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<v Speaker 2>it much harder for an attacker to overwhelm any single point.

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<v Speaker 1>So their structure provides a kind of built in resilience.

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<v Speaker 1>Even if that wasn't the primary goal exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>They offer significant d'dos protection as a side benefit, and

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<v Speaker 2>now many CDNs offer specific DIDOS mitigation services too.

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<v Speaker 1>But I seem to remember hearing about cases where even

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<v Speaker 1>big CDNs struggled or maybe even dropped clients during massive

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<v Speaker 1>attacks because it was just too much or too expensive.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a valid point and a real challenge. CDN's specially

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<v Speaker 2>robust DEDOS protection from them can be expensive, and relying

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<v Speaker 2>solely on one CDN provider does create a potential single

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<v Speaker 2>point of failure, or at least a single point of

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<v Speaker 2>financial pain. You mentioned Krebs on security Brian Krebb's security

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<v Speaker 2>news site back in twenty sixteen. It got hit by

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<v Speaker 2>a massive DIDAS attack, largely from the Maria botnet. Akamai.

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<v Speaker 2>His CDM provider at the time was mitigating it, but

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<v Speaker 2>the sheer scale and costs led them to eventually drop

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<v Speaker 2>his site from their free to protection. It highlighted the

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<v Speaker 2>economic limits, right, So.

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<v Speaker 1>Relying on one provider, even a big one, isn't foolproof.

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<v Speaker 2>It forces organizations to think about more complex strategies, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>using multiple CDMs or combining cloud protection with some defenses

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<v Speaker 2>on their own premises. It adds layers, but also complexity and.

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<v Speaker 1>Cost, and this challenge, I guess, spurred development of other

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<v Speaker 1>approaches like dynamic dios mitigation or DDM.

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<v Speaker 2>What's the idea there exactly? DDM tries to address those

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<v Speaker 2>single provider limitations and cost issues. The core idea is

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<v Speaker 2>to leverage resources from multiple different cloud service providers dynamically,

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<v Speaker 2>so when an attack hits, the system can automatically scale

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<v Speaker 2>up defenses, distributing the attack traffic across a much wider

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<v Speaker 2>surface area, maybe using capacity from AWS, Azure, Google Cloud

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<v Speaker 2>and specialized scrubbing centers, simultaneously.

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<v Speaker 1>Spreading the load even further right.

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<v Speaker 2>To dissipate the effect more effectively, and crucially, when the

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<v Speaker 2>attack subsides, it can scale those resources back down on

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<v Speaker 2>amadically to reduce the operational costs. It aims for more

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<v Speaker 2>flexibility and resilience.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, that makes sense. Another defense concept that sounds really interesting,

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<v Speaker 1>almost futuristic is moving target defense or MTD. What's that about?

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<v Speaker 2>MTD is a fascinating area. The basic philosophy is if

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<v Speaker 2>the target is constantly changing, it's much harder for an

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<v Speaker 2>attacker to hit it successfully. Instead of building static fortress

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<v Speaker 2>like defenses, you make the system itself dynamic and unpredictable.

421
00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:31.920
<v Speaker 1>How do you do that? Like constantly changing IP addresses.

422
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:35.319
<v Speaker 2>That's one example. Yeah, Dynamically mutating IP addresses makes it

423
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:37.880
<v Speaker 2>harder for attackers to even find the target, let alone

424
00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:41.720
<v Speaker 2>sustain an attack against it. Other MTD techniques might involve

425
00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:46.720
<v Speaker 2>frequently changing network paths, randomizing system configurations, or even presenting

426
00:22:46.759 --> 00:22:50.160
<v Speaker 2>attackers with deceptive fake views of the network topology to

427
00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:52.160
<v Speaker 2>confuse their reconnaissance efforts.

428
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:55.240
<v Speaker 1>It's about creating uncertainty for the attacker, Yeah, making their

429
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:57.519
<v Speaker 1>planning and execution much more difficult.

430
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:01.400
<v Speaker 2>Precisely, it aims to increase the attack workload and reduce

431
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:04.839
<v Speaker 2>their window of opportunity. While it adds complexity to your

432
00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:07.960
<v Speaker 2>own system management, it can be very effective, especially against

433
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:10.680
<v Speaker 2>automated attack tools that rely on static information.

434
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:15.599
<v Speaker 1>Okay, shifting gears a bit. Software defined networking SDN. This

435
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:18.400
<v Speaker 1>is a pretty major change in how networks are built

436
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:22.559
<v Speaker 1>and managed. How does SDN impact DDoS defense? Is it

437
00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:23.960
<v Speaker 1>good news or bad news?

438
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:27.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's both. SDN definitely presents huge opportunities, but also

439
00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:31.000
<v Speaker 2>new challenges. The big change with SDN is that it

440
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:34.599
<v Speaker 2>separates the network's control logic the brain from the actual

441
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:38.680
<v Speaker 2>hardware that forwards traffic the muscle you get the centralized

442
00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:41.000
<v Speaker 2>software controller that manages the entire network.

443
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:43.400
<v Speaker 1>Centralized control sounds powerful.

444
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:46.480
<v Speaker 2>It is, and it's programmable. This gives you incredible flexibility

445
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.839
<v Speaker 2>to create adaptive security solutions. You could, for instance, use

446
00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:53.079
<v Speaker 2>the SDN controller to implement MTD techniques like that dynamic

447
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:56.079
<v Speaker 2>IP mutation we just talked about, or you could program

448
00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:59.119
<v Speaker 2>it to quickly reroute traffic around attack points, or even

449
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:03.000
<v Speaker 2>generate fake networks to deceive attackers trying to map your infrastructure.

450
00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:05.079
<v Speaker 2>The potential for dynamic defense is.

451
00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:07.640
<v Speaker 1>Huge, but that centralization sounds like it could also be

452
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:09.880
<v Speaker 1>a weakness, right, A single target for attackers.

453
00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:13.960
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, that's the flip side. The SDN controller itself becomes

454
00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:18.400
<v Speaker 2>a very attractive, high value target. A successful DIDOS attack

455
00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:21.880
<v Speaker 2>against the controller could potentially paralyze the entire network. It's

456
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:24.359
<v Speaker 2>a single point of failure and the programmability.

457
00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:25.640
<v Speaker 1>Could that be misused?

458
00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Yes, If an attacker could somehow compromise the controller or

459
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:34.759
<v Speaker 2>exploit its programming interfaces, they could potentially reconfigure the network maliciously,

460
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:39.519
<v Speaker 2>causing widespread disruption. A different kind of denial of service Also,

461
00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:43.200
<v Speaker 2>SDN often goes hand in hand with network function virtualization,

462
00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:47.759
<v Speaker 2>running things like firewalls and routers as software on scattered servers.

463
00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:51.799
<v Speaker 2>This softization means you might have multiple critical network functions

464
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:54.599
<v Speaker 2>running on the same physical box that creates high value

465
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:57.759
<v Speaker 2>targets and potentially a broader attack surface if one component

466
00:24:57.799 --> 00:24:58.680
<v Speaker 2>gets compromised.

467
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:01.480
<v Speaker 1>So powerful potential, but also new risks to manage.

468
00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:04.839
<v Speaker 2>Exactly it requires careful design and robust security for the

469
00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:06.279
<v Speaker 2>SDN components themselves.

470
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:09.480
<v Speaker 1>And we've touched on this, but it bears repeating. This

471
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:12.680
<v Speaker 1>isn't just about websites or corporate networks anymore. DDAs is

472
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:15.720
<v Speaker 1>increasingly threat to cyberphysical systems cps.

473
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:20.039
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. Cps are systems that integrate computing and networking with

474
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:25.960
<v Speaker 2>physical processes. Think smart manufacturing, smart buildings, intelligent transportation systems.

475
00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:27.839
<v Speaker 1>And the big one, the smart grid.

476
00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:31.440
<v Speaker 2>The smart grid is a prime example. It relies heavily

477
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:34.880
<v Speaker 2>on real time data flowing over networks from sensors out

478
00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:37.880
<v Speaker 2>in the field, things like phaser measurement units or pmus,

479
00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:40.119
<v Speaker 2>which monitor the health of the power grid.

480
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:42.160
<v Speaker 1>So if you disrupt that data flow.

481
00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.720
<v Speaker 2>You can cause serious problems. Studies have shown that even

482
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:50.160
<v Speaker 2>if the communication is encrypted, say, using VPN tunnels, attackers

483
00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:53.480
<v Speaker 2>might still be able to disrupt things using side channel attacks.

484
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:55.279
<v Speaker 1>Side channel what does that mean here?

485
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:59.039
<v Speaker 2>It means looking at characteristics other than the encrypted data itself,

486
00:25:59.079 --> 00:26:01.920
<v Speaker 2>like analyzing the size of the packets being sent or

487
00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:05.680
<v Speaker 2>the timing between packets. Even without decrypting the data, attackers

488
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:08.000
<v Speaker 2>might be able to identify which data streams belong to

489
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:11.640
<v Speaker 2>specific critical pmus just based on these patterns.

490
00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:14.279
<v Speaker 1>And then what block just those specific packets.

491
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:18.119
<v Speaker 2>Potentially, yes, they could selectively drop or delay just the

492
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:22.000
<v Speaker 2>data from crucial pmus. This could make the control center

493
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:25.240
<v Speaker 2>think the PMU is still online and connected, but it's

494
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:29.200
<v Speaker 2>not receiving the vital real time measurements about grid stability.

495
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:31.880
<v Speaker 2>If that happens, the system operators might not see an

496
00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:36.160
<v Speaker 2>impending problem, potentially leading to instability or even blackouts.

497
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:38.960
<v Speaker 1>That is genuinely unsettling. It really drives home that the

498
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:41.400
<v Speaker 1>lines are blurring. It's not just about data loss anymore.

499
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.920
<v Speaker 1>It's about potentially catastrophic physical consequences.

500
00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:48.519
<v Speaker 2>Right and think about those BGP hijacking or DNS poisoning

501
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:52.480
<v Speaker 2>attacks we mentioned earlier. If attackers can redirect Internet traffic,

502
00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:56.559
<v Speaker 2>they could potentially intercept or block communication for financial services,

503
00:26:56.599 --> 00:27:00.920
<v Speaker 2>government agencies, even theoretically systems involved in manage critical national

504
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:04.079
<v Speaker 2>security assets. The potential impact is enormous.

505
00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:07.400
<v Speaker 1>Wow, Okay, we have covered a ton of ground in

506
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.960
<v Speaker 1>this deep dive. It's really quite a journey. We went

507
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:13.319
<v Speaker 1>from the earliest sort of conceptual denial of service, the

508
00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:16.359
<v Speaker 1>Luddites and sit ins, all the way to these massive

509
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:20.559
<v Speaker 1>global DEDOS attacks we see today impacting everything. We've looked

510
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:24.559
<v Speaker 1>at the motivations from just messing around to organized crime,

511
00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:28.559
<v Speaker 1>political anctivism, and even full blown state sponsored cyber warfare.

512
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:30.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and we unpacked the tech behind it too, the

513
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:35.359
<v Speaker 2>simple symmetric floods, the much sneakier reflection and amplification attacks,

514
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:39.720
<v Speaker 2>exploiting protocol weaknesses, software bugs, even extending into the physical

515
00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:41.240
<v Speaker 2>realm with things like stucksnet.

516
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:44.119
<v Speaker 1>And then the defense side, the detection methods using signatures,

517
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:47.599
<v Speaker 1>looking for anomalies with stats like entropy, and the mitigation

518
00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:51.799
<v Speaker 1>strategies leveraging CDNs, the cloud elasticity with DDM trying to

519
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:55.559
<v Speaker 1>be unpredictable, with moving target defense and navigating the complexities

520
00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:56.160
<v Speaker 1>of SDN.

521
00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:01.079
<v Speaker 2>It truly is an ongoing arms race. Attacker constantly innovate,

522
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:05.240
<v Speaker 2>finding new vulnerabilities, new ways to cause disruption, and defenders

523
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:08.240
<v Speaker 2>are racing to keep up, developing new techniques to protect

524
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:13.200
<v Speaker 2>our digital lives and increasingly, our critical physical infrastructure. The

525
00:28:13.240 --> 00:28:14.559
<v Speaker 2>stakes just keep getting higher.

526
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:17.880
<v Speaker 1>They really do it touches almost everything now. Okay, before

527
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:19.920
<v Speaker 1>we wrap up, let's leave our listeners with a final

528
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:23.880
<v Speaker 1>provocative thought to chew on. Considering everything we've discussed and

529
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:27.559
<v Speaker 1>how reliant we're becoming on interconnected smart systems, smart homes,

530
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:30.960
<v Speaker 1>smart cities, smart grids, how might the very nature of

531
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:33.920
<v Speaker 1>denial of service attacks change in the coming years as

532
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:37.359
<v Speaker 1>everything gets connected? What new kinds of vulnerabilities might emerge

533
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:39.920
<v Speaker 1>when your fridge, your car, the traffic lights, the power

534
00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:42.480
<v Speaker 1>grid are all talking to each other. And how will

535
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.519
<v Speaker 1>our defenses need to evolve to protect these incredibly complex,

536
00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:47.799
<v Speaker 1>interconnective next generation targets
