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Speaker 1: If you want to support the show and get the

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episodes early and ad free, head on over to Freemanbeyond

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the Wall dot com forward slash Support. I want to

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explain something right now. If you support me through substack

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you support me through subscribe, star gum Road or on

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my website directly, I will send you a link where

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you can download the file and you can listen to

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it any way you wish. I really appreciate the support

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everyone gives me. It keeps a show going. It allows

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me to basically put out an episode every day now,

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and I'm not going to stop. I'm just going to accelerate.

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I think sometimes you see that I'm putting out two

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even three a day, and yeah, can't do it without

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you you, so thank you for the support. Head on

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over to Freeman Beyond the Wall dot com, Forward slash

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Support and do it there. Thank you. I want to

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welcome everyone back to the Pekingana Show. How are you

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doing today, Thomas.

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Speaker 2: And well, thanks as always for hosting me on this

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fine day. Yeah, it's another's day, so good fortune. Then

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long life till the mom's up too.

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Speaker 1: Which mine was still around. Likewise, Yeah, all right, so

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this is long awaited. A lot of people have asked

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for this. I'm excited about this. Start talking about the

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Spanish Civil War. Just start going. I'll interrupt if I

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have any questions. Let me let me start off with

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an easy one. When was the first time you started

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looking at the Spanish Civil War?

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Speaker 2: I mean, for me, it was pretty early on, because

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it's something that was mythologized very much. I remember when

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I was like a teenager in college age, you know,

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like in my late team's early twenties. There was this

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great mythology spun around the communist side, which is euphemistically

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referred to as like the Republican side. I mean that

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it's like the who was arming and equipping and providing

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nkvduh functionaries to slaughter people behind the lines. It was

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the Soviet Union doing it, Okay, you weren't. They weren't

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fighting and create like twenty first century Sweden. Not that

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would be any great shakes either, but you know then,

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oh and you know, we there was some Russians there too,

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so that that didn't make any sense. And the you know,

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as I got into before, before consumer internet was a thing,

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you know, like I've said, you had to rely basically

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on the resources of your local library. And I was

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blessed in that regards Chicago Land or stuff like the

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Institute for Historical Review and uh the I h R.

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They they were always putting out stuff related to condoor religion. Okay,

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I mean in part because there's a lot of like

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aviation buff old guys like buying their stuff, I assume.

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But it's also guys like Mark Weber or whatever. I

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guess he goes by, you know, and uh, and some

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a lot a lot of their kind of best contributors

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and editors they were. They were always coming back to

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the war in Spain, you know, the Battle in Spain,

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how that how that shaped you know, conceptual horizons strategically,

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and how it was really you know, kind of the

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precursor to everything that followed. And it was uh, you know,

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like I said, I I think it was Sleean who

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said that, you know, Stalingrad is where left and right

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Hegelians met to set all their differences. That first time

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that happened was in Spain, okay, even on their visioness side,

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though the misconceptions, like I I'm going to get into

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some of that today. Like David Irving is kind of

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even though people view him as this kind of like

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art revisionist, in a lot of ways, he's not. And

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I mean I think he's he's he's the historian of

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the Third Rich and he's just like a great individual,

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but he's he mischaracterizes the political situation there relative to

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the combatants. And I'll get into what I mean by that,

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but I mean it was basically my interest in the

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Spanish War was concomitant with you know, my interest in

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the Third Reich in the second World of the war,

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because I came to realize that these things were inextricably

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connected as well as you know, it's like why there's

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a number there's a lot of conflicts where people try

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to finesse the true nature of the combatants, you know,

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owing to ideological prejudices. Like I mean that that was

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in my own lifetime. I mean that that happened in

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you know, nicarrog when I'll Salvador. That's what like our

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dear friend Dan, who's an expert on that, you know,

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he's been taking the oral histories of of a nationalist veterans. Uh,

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you know Salvador, you know, that's why I hosted him

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on the pot and I hope to again. But you know,

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so I pretty quickly realized that it was imperative the

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kind of deep dive into into the Spanish War, but

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also Spain. There's a lot of a tragic character to Spain,

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and Spain is really I mean despite the fact, or

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maybe because of the fact, I you know, and I'm

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not saying it does not a value loaded statement that

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you know, the Vatican is in Rome, like Spain, Spain

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kind of lived out in the most kind of sanguinary ways,

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you know, like uh, like the Catholic historical experience, you know,

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whether it was you know, the centuries along Riconquista against Islam,

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which like other Europeans unless you count you know, people

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in the bulk in the in the Balkans like weren't

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dealing with that, you know, like and uh, you know,

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just the relationship of the the clergy to the monarchy.

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But also I mean again ironically, and we'll get into

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this too in a minute. The reason Machiavelli, you constantly

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invoked the example of Ferdinand and Isabella. It's because Spain,

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despite the fact that they despite the fact that they

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remain kind of feudal in like their sensibilities. You know,

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even until the the early twentieth century, Spain was the

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first truly kind of Westphalian national state, like before Westphalia,

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you know, where where you had a truly absolute monarch

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and the and the borders of Spain were national borders,

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you know. It wasn't it wasn't a confederation, a palladies,

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you know, where there was uh, you know where there

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was some lame duck you know, secular prime minister or chancellor,

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you know, kind of like holding the illusion together like

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it really was like an absolute monarchy of a nation state,

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you know, and not as like a puppet of the

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Vatican or anything like that. So there's always like weird dichotomies.

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So it has got interested in like Spain like on

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its own terms because like I, you know, I'm assumed

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the political theory, you know what I isn't there.

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Speaker 1: Isn't there also the in the history of Spain, after

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you have the uprisings to kick the Moors out, Spain

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falls under much like Russia would later a few centuries

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of Jewish influence to the point where Spanish Spanish are

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being made slaves, are being made slaves of Jewish masters.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was definitely that, that was definitely a very

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real phenomenon, and that didn't happen in Western Europe. That

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happened like Poland was basically a huge like Jewish sleeve colony,

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like Ukraine wasn't it might opinion still is today and

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I mean not, it's not like metaphoral terms and real terms,

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particularly if you particularly you know, if you count pornography,

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which is which is literally white slavery. I mean that's

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not a euphemism, that's accurate, which is why that's what

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it used to be called. But uh, in Western Europe,

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like corrupt as the French uh uh, the Republic was,

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you know, as regards you know, being in bed with

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uh with with Jewish users and other uh you know

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another another another another powerful people who were you know,

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operating nhemically to the inimical to the national interest. It's

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kind of like out and out domination you know of

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people's you know, like like not just socially but physically. Yeah,

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I mean Spain was ground zero for that kind of thing.

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In a way that was alien to Western Europe. I

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epvertis Western Europe, but so yeah, I mean it was

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it was kind of like this, It was kind of

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like this collision of like the ancient and the very

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modern and you know, stuff like that. But to your point,

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you know about uh about you know, Spaniards and Jews,

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that that's gonna require like a dedicated deep dive because

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it's just like too big for me to and I

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don't want to just like shoot from the hip on

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it today because at the I I didn't. I didn't

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like prepare any notes or anything or just like refreshment recollection.

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I know a lot about the topic, but I got

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to be able to say dates and things in a

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linear order, and like I can't do it on the

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top of my head. I'm not a robot or a savant.

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But but yeah, I mean that's that's important. And that's

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also you know, I mean, uh, it's just an ongoing

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and like the term you know, moranos or like I don't, uh,

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I don't, I don't, I don't know what the correct

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pronunciation is. You know, he's the one, uh the Ferdinand

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demanded that you know, like all all Jews convert and

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like except Catholicism, you know, as the national religion, you know,

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which again it's you know, the ironically or perhaps not,

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you know, Spain became the first truly like national state.

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But the point is like that wasn't just that was

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that wasn't just Fernan trying to kind of score points

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with the clergy or something like. This was this was

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imperative in Spain in a way it was not other places,

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or maybe not, maybe imperative is not the word. This

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was a measure that had a context in Spain that

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it did in other places, even where there was you know,

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bed blood across ethno sectarian lines of a way that

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was any way that was very pronounced. But I want

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to do two things today. I wanted to get just

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kind of briefly into you know, sociological features of Spain

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that relate to you know, political development that became critical

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variables in the War of nineteen thirty six thirty nine.

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I also want to deal with some like misconceptions about

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fascism itself and about what the perspectives were of uh

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in Berlin and in Moscow, and and and how Hitler

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viewed the situation strategically, and how solidd because this is

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wildly taken out of context by every virtually everybody, including

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some people who are very studied revisionists, and you should

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know better. But you know that said, i'll uh let me,

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let me just let close out this window. Basically I'm

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gonna start. It's gonna seem like I'm jumping around a bit,

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but I believe this is the best way to present it,

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especially because you know, I'm starting with something that's familiar.

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And also this is kind of the framing device as

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you if if if if that makes sense. When did

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uh basically Hitler and the the inner h kind of

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core the third or eych you know that being gearing Gebels,

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you know Himler, they first kind of became U. They

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first kind of became aware of Spain and strategic terms.

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It was July twenty fifth, nineteen thirty six. It seems

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like something out of a movie, but Uh Hitler was

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actually attending an opera I think at Uh by Ruth

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or bay royth like I I'm sure I'm portraying that pronunciation,

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but literally at the intermission of this opera at uh

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Canarious approaches and madmial Canaris, who was you know, a

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very conspiratorial individual and a term coat. I mean it's

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been proven, you know, many times over, but he was.

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He was chief of the ABVIA, you know, the foreign

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intelligence service. And Canarius was strange because in some ways

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he seemed to be acting, you know, at critical moments

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in the in the interest of the Third Reich, you know,

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other times he was you know, working as UH just

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as actively the sabotage it's strategic ambitions and are leaving

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its survival. But that's a that's a subject to itself.

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But Canaras had actually introduced m Yeah Hitler to Franco's

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people and UH Canari's UH. He approached Hitler during the

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intermition of this opera and he brought him an urgent

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UH telegram, which was an appeal from UH to a

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Franco's emissaries, you know, asking them for immedia, asking the

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Third reichs for immediate assistance. Specifically, Franco needed to transport

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the Moroccan legions were sympathetic, you know, for the nationalist

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cause from UH North afric to the Spanish mainland, you know,

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to rapidly reinforce. And Hiller convened daring Arhard Milche Albert Kesselring,

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who I made the point, you know, kessel Ring was

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finally his final command was you know, the defense of Italy,

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and uh, he was never his forces were never defeated,

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you know, they the war ended. So I mean, the

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the Wehrmacht and the Loofaffa just just went home, you

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know it. But kessel Ring at that time was was

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the luff the chief of staff Milch, who was an

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absolutely brilliant guy in all kinds of ways. Uh and

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in an operational term, see, he was second to none.

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But all of and this will become relevant later, all

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one of them said, yes, we've got to intervene. Now.

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Hitler authorized a full scale intervention. All the men present said,

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we've got to be careful here. You know, we're very

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we've got to be very careful about, you know, the

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signals we send to the Soviet Union, to the UK,

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to France. Okay. Ultimately, uh, getting deployed a bomber squadron

236
00:15:29,399 --> 00:15:35,480
under a von Richtoffen who along with Vontma who commanded

237
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,240
the ground element, and we'll get into that later. Were

238
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,039
they were both you know, top they were both top commanders.

239
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,399
And there's somewhat overlooked and people who like the rank

240
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:51,279
that acts the generals and what have you. But Hitler's

241
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,159
view was that, you know, there was a need to

242
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:59,840
test uh you know, German combined arms, you know, the

243
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:05,480
one you know, and familiarized uh familiar eyes, uh you

244
00:16:05,519 --> 00:16:10,679
know both aaron ground element forces with with these new technologies. Secondly,

245
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,360
there needed to be you know, the younger generation wasn't

246
00:16:13,399 --> 00:16:17,799
battle tested, you know, and there was that too. Garring's

247
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,159
notion was, uh, Gearing at that time was still in

248
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,120
charge of uh, you know, the the broad economic planning

249
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,799
you know, in a way that would later end up

250
00:16:27,919 --> 00:16:30,720
uh in the lap of disasters. He earned you that

251
00:16:31,559 --> 00:16:33,159
as well as ar Hard and Mills, you know, kind

252
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,120
of in a in a more limited way, and some

253
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,759
would you know be uh you know, conferred upon Albert Spear,

254
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,200
you know as armage minister. At this point, Garing was

255
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:48,639
kinging of like the four year plans. Okay, Gearing coveted

256
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,399
precious metals that Spain had stuff like tungstend, stuff like copper.

257
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:58,440
You know that that uh that he reasoned uh could

258
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,480
be bartered in direct exchange thy aid or you know,

259
00:17:01,559 --> 00:17:10,559
acquired fire sale prices Okay at h no by fall

260
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,359
a general war was under way in Spain. Okay, And

261
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:20,160
at this point Milch kessel Ring Gerring said, we've got

262
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,720
to be very careful about escalation unless we find ourselves

263
00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:27,160
in a general war with the Soviet Union. Okay. So

264
00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:31,440
this idea that the Soviet Union just you know, oh,

265
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,200
owing to socialism in one country. You know, the Soviets

266
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,240
weren't really involved in Spain. Stalin was in Spain one

267
00:17:37,279 --> 00:17:39,519
hundred percent. He was in it to win it. On

268
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,880
his side, he didn't want to yet provoke a war

269
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,599
with the Third Reich. Okay. See, you've got something of

270
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:50,519
a Mexican standoff beneath kind of uh, you know, and

271
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:58,480
an intended subterfuge. Okay, what Stalin meant by socialism in

272
00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:00,319
one country, You've got to understand in the way the

273
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:07,200
Russian Revolution developed, the way that Lenin envisioned the Bolshevik cause,

274
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:12,119
you know, as a vanguard movement. The basic problem within

275
00:18:12,279 --> 00:18:16,359
kind of communist political theology, or rather the kind of

276
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:22,319
conceptual view of you know, like the man doesn't make history,

277
00:18:22,519 --> 00:18:26,240
like history awaits you know, history gives man kind of

278
00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:30,119
the clarion call, you know, and you can't force revolutionary

279
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:35,599
conditions too early, and uh, you know this idea that

280
00:18:36,839 --> 00:18:39,640
you know, one can just build quote build socialism in

281
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,880
a backwards country like Russia, you know, and then you know,

282
00:18:43,319 --> 00:18:45,200
Russia can catch up for the rest of the world,

283
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,960
you know. And then you know, when a general proletarian

284
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,039
revolution starts, you know, sweeping the developed world, well Russia

285
00:18:53,039 --> 00:18:54,720
will be right there. I mean, this is this is

286
00:18:54,799 --> 00:18:59,599
not orthodox Marsus Leninism. Okay, that's what Stalin was talking about.

287
00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:02,839
He wasn't saying, oh, I'm gonna glad hand with fascism

288
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,599
because I don't want anyone to think I'm doing anything

289
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,720
but looking inward. And you know, I'm not really a

290
00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:10,000
communist and I don't really have designs on Europe like

291
00:19:10,079 --> 00:19:16,240
that's this nonsense. Also at Base Spain was a political fight. Okay,

292
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:27,359
politics matters when you're dealing with a revolutionary fervor that

293
00:19:27,519 --> 00:19:31,160
is sweeping not just a key territory but literally the continent.

294
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,559
Later during the Cold War, arguably the planet. But we're

295
00:19:34,599 --> 00:19:38,759
not there yet. The Third Reich had to go fight

296
00:19:38,839 --> 00:19:42,200
in Spain because Spain is where the communists drew line. Okay,

297
00:19:43,519 --> 00:19:46,240
that was that that that that was eight hundred percent

298
00:19:46,599 --> 00:19:52,160
and vice versa like Stalin, this Moscow, the Soviet Union

299
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,839
and its entire claimed the mantle of you know, global

300
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,880
leadership of the proletariat, that that would have totally evaporated.

301
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,440
You know if if if Stalin had not you know,

302
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,279
set uh the communists whatever they needed to win, Okay,

303
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,039
But at the same time, abiding the need you know,

304
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,279
to keep up appearances. You know, it's even more important

305
00:20:15,279 --> 00:20:18,000
to keep up appearances as you know, when when when

306
00:20:18,319 --> 00:20:21,039
when you're undermining you know, what you report to be

307
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,160
your own commitment to peace and and and aversion to escalation,

308
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,759
and when it boss tweets. The appearance of the law

309
00:20:27,839 --> 00:20:31,480
is fundamental, like especially when it's being broken. I mean,

310
00:20:31,839 --> 00:20:35,319
it's this shouldn't come as a this shouldn't seem like

311
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:42,480
outlandish to anybody, Okay. But that's that's that's uh, you

312
00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:45,519
know that that's there. There's there's so much dishonesty around

313
00:20:45,759 --> 00:20:49,640
the issue. That's why I emphasize that. A lot of

314
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:53,279
people point to Hitler made a statement, and I think

315
00:20:53,319 --> 00:20:55,000
you can find this in table talk, but I found

316
00:20:55,039 --> 00:20:58,720
citations and Irving. I found a citation and Irving's The

317
00:20:58,799 --> 00:21:05,599
war Path also in uh After in early no in

318
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,400
November December thirty sevens about a year Onward Hitler. Uh.

319
00:21:12,079 --> 00:21:15,160
Hitler had told Ribbon Trops chief of staff or his

320
00:21:15,279 --> 00:21:21,440
secretary that, uh, you know, like something that something effected,

321
00:21:21,519 --> 00:21:24,519
like an outright victory of Franco. You know, we actually

322
00:21:24,599 --> 00:21:26,079
might live to regret that because the guy is such

323
00:21:26,079 --> 00:21:29,519
a bastard, you know, ha ha ha. But he also said,

324
00:21:29,519 --> 00:21:32,000
you know, our interest is first and foremost is preventing

325
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,839
a Communist victory, but also to maintaining maintaining existing tensions

326
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,839
in the Mediterranean. You know, if h if the UK

327
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:47,359
was being you know, it's waiting and out of the

328
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,680
medic you know. Uh. But also like you know, the Spanish,

329
00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:56,680
you know, essentially preventing like neutralizing the strategic benefit of

330
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,559
the Strait of Gibraltar to the UK. There that give

331
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,119
Germany tremendous power, you know, now just in terms of

332
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,480
the fact that well, you know, the real navy, the

333
00:22:07,599 --> 00:22:10,920
Royal Navy would then you know, be at war in

334
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,880
a in a te theater, but it would give Berlin,

335
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,279
you know, bargaining power with respect to London. And at

336
00:22:17,279 --> 00:22:20,920
that point, obviously you know, Hillar didn't view the UK

337
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,480
as an enemy, you know, so the fact that Hiller

338
00:22:25,559 --> 00:22:28,519
would lament the fact that Franco is a bastard, he's

339
00:22:28,559 --> 00:22:31,720
a terrible ally, he's impossible to work with, you know,

340
00:22:31,799 --> 00:22:33,359
the fact that he would say, in a perfect world,

341
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:35,880
you know, there'd be a guy who was more malleable,

342
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,400
you know, in Madrid or fighting to take Madrid. But

343
00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:44,559
also you know, in a perfect world, you know, we'd

344
00:22:44,599 --> 00:22:47,160
be able to kind of keep keep keep the Royal

345
00:22:47,279 --> 00:22:49,839
Navy forever tied down, you know, by some kind of

346
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:54,480
friendly regime on the Iberian Peninsula. Like that's not that

347
00:22:54,559 --> 00:22:57,240
doesn't that doesn't amount to some statement, like some literal

348
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,240
statement of you know, gee, we made a mistake to

349
00:23:00,279 --> 00:23:05,039
back Franco. I mean, it's people have a real problem

350
00:23:05,079 --> 00:23:10,599
with literalists thinking in these days, but that they had

351
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:18,759
a side. It's one of the things that arguably, when

352
00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:22,440
I say arguably, I don't mean, uh, I don't mean

353
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,160
in my perspective, but you know, again, people who view

354
00:23:26,799 --> 00:23:28,279
the war in Spain is just kind of this like

355
00:23:29,759 --> 00:23:35,279
isolated occurrence where you know, the Communists and support for

356
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:41,680
a you know, for the for the Republicans as they're called,

357
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,519
was was just some kind of token, perfunctory gesture or that,

358
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,200
you know, the Third Reich wasn't really committed to it,

359
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,599
you know, other than you know, for the very limited

360
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,119
purpose of uh of of you know, cutting the combat

361
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:02,480
teeth at Vermont. There it really was cross border momentum

362
00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:06,559
developing behind parties of the right. Okay, No, there was

363
00:24:06,599 --> 00:24:09,920
not a fascist international, but that would have been self defeating.

364
00:24:10,079 --> 00:24:16,839
And also that's not kind of the the claimed legitimacy

365
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,680
that these rightist movements had didn't entail you know, some uh,

366
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:27,079
some kind of bureaucratic party apparatus, you know, with an

367
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,359
armed element, you know, that had some kind of like

368
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,440
you know, abstract theory of history that sort of rationalized

369
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,359
you know, uh, its existence. I mean, its entire claim

370
00:24:38,559 --> 00:24:45,440
was you know, something primordial, perennial and based in you know,

371
00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:49,279
the uh, the mysteries of cultural and racial origins. Okay,

372
00:24:52,799 --> 00:24:55,200
to anyone who thinks that there was not, you know,

373
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,839
a zeitgeist that was facilitating the war in Spain on

374
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:05,000
both sides. The funeral of two men who died on

375
00:25:05,079 --> 00:25:08,240
the same day and whose funerals were held in Kind

376
00:25:09,799 --> 00:25:13,720
on January thirteen, nineteen thirty seven, to Romanian nationals, the

377
00:25:13,799 --> 00:25:17,640
name of Vassil or Vassil Vassili Marine and Iron Mota.

378
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,920
Ion Mota was Coachoriano's number two in the Iron Guard.

379
00:25:23,319 --> 00:25:28,839
They traveled to Spain, initially with an Iron Guard delegation

380
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,960
to present a Toledo sword to one of the Franco's generals.

381
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,960
They ended up joining the Nationalist side and they were

382
00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:49,160
killed in action, and this became a rallying cry across Europe.

383
00:25:51,319 --> 00:25:56,279
It these guys were reviewed as holy warriors in a

384
00:25:57,799 --> 00:26:03,000
in a Christian jahad uh against communism, you know, against

385
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:08,519
uh uh against uh, against Jewish aggression and all the

386
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:18,440
iterations against atheism, you know, all these things. That their

387
00:26:18,519 --> 00:26:25,279
bodies were interred or were on their way to interment.

388
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,440
We're putting a mortuary train. It left Spain, it traveled

389
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:35,559
through France and Belgium and reached Berlin in February. And

390
00:26:35,759 --> 00:26:39,160
everywhere they stopped they were met by you know, s

391
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,279
s and s amen and National soldiers, party officials, delgates

392
00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:47,519
to the Spanish Falange. Uh, you know, guys former representatives

393
00:26:47,559 --> 00:26:51,039
of the Fascist Party in Italy obviously, you know, a

394
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,359
huge Iron Guard contingent, you know, men from the ex

395
00:26:54,480 --> 00:27:02,680
in France. Ay, the funeral train literally did an entire

396
00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:08,839
tour of Europe, and uh was greeted by throngs of

397
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:14,599
onlookers giving it the Roman salute. Okay, So I can

398
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,680
think of nothing comparable in in in in the communist

399
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:24,039
world before or after nineteen forty five, you know, I

400
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:25,640
can think of thing. I can think of people who

401
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,480
the communists tried to glomb onto, like Bobby Sands, which

402
00:27:28,519 --> 00:27:30,960
was very misguided because Sands certainly wasn't one of them.

403
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,000
There are people like from the Popular Front Liberation of Palestine,

404
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,519
you know, years after the fact, they show up, uh,

405
00:27:40,279 --> 00:27:43,319
you know wearing uh, wearing Sha Grivera badges and stuff.

406
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,119
Before it became much an idiot hipster thing in like

407
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,240
the two thousands, it was Uh. It's ironic because of

408
00:27:50,319 --> 00:27:52,799
like the the PFLP General command and people like that,

409
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,880
would you know, what would employ his visage. But there's

410
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,880
nothing comparable. You know, this This really was like a

411
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,200
holy war of the right against you know, against what

412
00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:09,720
they perceived this jewelry, against communism, you know, against against uh,

413
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,519
you know again against godless capital. That was uh, you know,

414
00:28:15,599 --> 00:28:17,799
that was that was that was supporting both of those elements,

415
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,880
you know, And that's why these fools who you know

416
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,480
from the UK and and from the USA, like you know,

417
00:28:24,759 --> 00:28:27,240
I was, I was. You know, there were people say

418
00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:29,720
like they were fighting, you know, for for freedom against tyranny.

419
00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:32,279
It's like, no, you were fighting. You were fighting alongside

420
00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:35,400
the Soviet Union and you're fighting against the Soviet Union

421
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,559
as most brutal zenith you know what I mean. So

422
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,680
you can't It's not your alibi, I think, most important ignorance,

423
00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:45,599
but it's you know it, it's got to be said.

424
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,000
And on the other side of it, I know we

425
00:28:50,079 --> 00:28:52,680
got into this quite a bit. We were doing our

426
00:28:52,720 --> 00:29:00,359
Second World War series, but it UH as the the

427
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:05,559
the dictates that Stalin was UH issuing to the General

428
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,440
Staff of the Red Army and the directives he was

429
00:29:09,519 --> 00:29:12,599
handing to the to the main what's called the Main Administration,

430
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,039
main administration for political propaganda in the Soviet Army. You know,

431
00:29:17,079 --> 00:29:19,160
we got into some of these things, but they these

432
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,400
all you know, on the eve of of war in

433
00:29:22,519 --> 00:29:27,519
May nine forty one, they were incessantly referencing the Spanish

434
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:34,799
War and you know the UH like a literal quote

435
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:46,400
from UH from Army Commissar first rank Zaporos. That's I

436
00:29:46,759 --> 00:29:50,640
can't pronounce these like Georgian and Moldovan and Russian names.

437
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:57,759
But his uh he quoted uh Stalin is saying, literally,

438
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:06,039
the situation is developing. Do the situation is developing, we

439
00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:08,119
are compelled in duty bound to take the initiative and

440
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,359
dealing the first blow, beginning the war of attack with

441
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,279
the objective of expanding the borders of socialism. You know.

442
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,920
Quote the leader made it unmistakably clear that war is

443
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,039
inevitable in the future. We must be prepared to the

444
00:30:22,039 --> 00:30:25,359
complete smashing of German fascism. I mean this, this goes

445
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:26,759
on and on and on, you know, Like I said,

446
00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:33,880
we we got into this in depth before in our

447
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,079
you know, earlier series. But it's and I'm sure some

448
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,880
people will say that, like I rely too much at

449
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,000
direct testimony and things. But if you're talking about intent,

450
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,880
and you're trying to you're trying to piece together intent,

451
00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:54,799
particularly of at scale. You know, you're talking about you know,

452
00:30:56,519 --> 00:30:59,799
command authorities in a state that ended up at war,

453
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:06,640
you know, months or years subsequent to the statement. You've

454
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,519
got to take those things basically at face value, you know,

455
00:31:09,559 --> 00:31:12,359
because number one, like who who what audience would they

456
00:31:12,359 --> 00:31:14,519
be speaking for? You know, these these these are the

457
00:31:14,599 --> 00:31:17,359
notes that were found later in some cases after the

458
00:31:17,559 --> 00:31:20,880
you know, decades later, at the opening of the Soviet archives,

459
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,480
you know, and it's you're you're talking like like Merzmmer said,

460
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,160
you know, if you're a general preparing for war, particularly

461
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,880
in a system like the Soviet Union, where you know,

462
00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:38,279
there was a kind of totalitarian accountability where and and

463
00:31:38,559 --> 00:31:40,640
and and at that at the level of these these

464
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:45,640
apparatrics in generals, they were constantly under surveillance and and

465
00:31:45,759 --> 00:31:48,599
misspeaking could cost you your life, you know, Like I

466
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,200
there's a basic honesty to that that you can rely

467
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,039
on in kind of absolute terms, you know, I mean

468
00:31:55,319 --> 00:31:58,640
what they say might be clouded by ideology, it might

469
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:05,839
be misguided, but but the idea that what amounts to

470
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:11,880
these eyes on the statements from Stalin, you know, to

471
00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:16,160
his political commissars, within the general, within the within within

472
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,319
the what amounts the general staff of the Right Army

473
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,200
that oh, they were just saying these things to give

474
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,359
an appearance of preparateness and and keep the Germans on

475
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,480
their toes, Like how would the Germans even know of that?

476
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,000
You know, Like it's I mean, I realize them preaching

477
00:32:30,039 --> 00:32:34,200
to the choir here. But that's that's important. And you know,

478
00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:38,400
the before uh, before ninety thirty nine, the last general

479
00:32:38,519 --> 00:32:43,480
deployment of UH of Soviet forces was was in Spain.

480
00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:46,400
And granted, like they didn't have an infantry element there.

481
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,000
They had the n k v D on the ground,

482
00:32:48,559 --> 00:32:50,240
but they had you know, but they were there in

483
00:32:50,319 --> 00:32:56,160
substantial numbers number one. And also, I mean Soviet weapons

484
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,680
were all over the battle theater, you know. So when

485
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,799
they're referencing, when they're making when when stalin is Is

486
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,119
is issuing edicts you know about you know, the future war,

487
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,240
which obviously he's talking about the Third Reich, you know,

488
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,319
and when he's discussing, when he's discussing tactical matters, identifying

489
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,400
what he's used as like strong points and weak points,

490
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,039
he's talking about the experience of Spain. Okay, I mean

491
00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:27,359
this that that can't be denied. Now back to Spain

492
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:33,839
at long last, the war in Spain happened in Spain, Uh,

493
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,480
not accidentally, you know, and not uh it's not uh,

494
00:33:41,119 --> 00:33:44,160
it's not a case of you know, revolutionary conditions owing

495
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,039
to owing to some kind of you know, punctuating prices

496
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,960
or ongoing emergency on the ground, you know, just kind

497
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:56,480
of made it right for for radicalization. Spain didn't develop normally, okay,

498
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,319
like we were talking before we went live, you know, uh,

499
00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:06,559
for centuries, uh Spain was uh what was what was

500
00:34:06,759 --> 00:34:12,480
was occupied, like large areas of territory were were occupied

501
00:34:12,559 --> 00:34:23,679
by Mazlem elements. When that was finally defeated, the you know,

502
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,320
I mean basically the uh the the intermittent war against

503
00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:32,119
against them, the the Islamic Moors really began. I mean

504
00:34:32,119 --> 00:34:35,880
it was it was Viscoth warlords who began, you know,

505
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:41,000
the reconquista in uh In like the seven hundreds, you know,

506
00:34:41,039 --> 00:34:49,119
and it like the territorial the territorial control of the

507
00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:52,480
Spaniards or the Moors, you know, like varied depending uh

508
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,599
on who had the upper hand in battlefield terms, as

509
00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:58,199
well as you know, who was forced to make political

510
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,519
concessions at any given moment. But it can be viewed

511
00:35:01,559 --> 00:35:05,360
basically as you know, a centuries long process to liberate

512
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:13,840
Spain from you know, from from Heathen occupation. And it

513
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:18,599
was finally realized by Ferdinand and Isabella. And in fourteen

514
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:23,480
ninety two, which is a banner year. You know, it's

515
00:35:25,159 --> 00:35:29,079
Ferdinand and Isabella like we talked about a moment ago,

516
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,119
I believe before winn Lie. The irony is that Ferdinand,

517
00:35:33,199 --> 00:35:37,519
the reason why I was praised so effusively by Machiavelli

518
00:35:37,679 --> 00:35:40,199
and the Prince is that Ferdinand was in many ways

519
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,559
like the first the first absolute monarch of a of

520
00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:48,840
a truly national state like Spain became a national state,

521
00:35:49,679 --> 00:36:00,920
you know, despite it's even at that point, despite its backwardness. Okay, Now,

522
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,440
fernand had a remarkable mandate, and so would have subsequent

523
00:36:06,639 --> 00:36:10,480
monarchs had they, you know, had they been able to

524
00:36:10,519 --> 00:36:17,960
retain the coalition they get around them. But the that

525
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,679
those successes, you know, were bought at a certain price.

526
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,400
And if you're fighting at the century as long a

527
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:33,760
holy war against Dar al Islam, the only way you

528
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:39,800
can facilitate that is by giving the army basically unlimited

529
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:47,719
access to the national coffers. And you got to insinuate

530
00:36:49,639 --> 00:36:55,440
the church into political affairs that otherwise would not be

531
00:36:55,519 --> 00:37:00,320
appropriate or constructive. And both of those things have happened.

532
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,480
I'm not saying bad things about the Roman Church at all.

533
00:37:04,559 --> 00:37:10,880
I'm saying this is a reality. Okay. So the kind

534
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:15,079
of prototype of of state power in Spain was an

535
00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:20,920
absolute monarchy before it really happened anywhere else, sustained by

536
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:31,079
a warrior aristocracy that it was beholden to, uh, a

537
00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:38,679
clergy that you know, had incredible power. You know. The

538
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,639
thing is, though, like all this costs a tremendous amount

539
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,760
of money, you know, and the solution during the Ricontuista,

540
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,400
particularly in the later phases, it's like you gotta feed

541
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,679
your army, like, Okay, well, you know, we're gonna seize

542
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,960
common land, you know, and uh, and we're we're gonna

543
00:37:55,039 --> 00:37:56,840
you know, we're gonna put animals out the pasture there,

544
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,119
you know, if we need like wool or you know,

545
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,079
leather or anything else. You know, that's that's just what

546
00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:04,159
we're gonna do. You know. So it was kind of

547
00:38:04,199 --> 00:38:08,360
the it was kind of the fifteenth century equivalent of

548
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,800
like imminent domain, you know, like being silly it sounds like,

549
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:11,199
but I'm not.

550
00:38:12,519 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: And a lot of that land was not being used.

551
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 2: Too.

552
00:38:17,199 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of that land was not being used

553
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:19,880
at all.

554
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 2: So no, but that and a lot of and a

555
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,800
lot of these guys were happy to I mean, they

556
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,320
they they wanted to purge heathens from Spain, you know,

557
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,599
for a lot more happy to allow access to it

558
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,280
or to give it literally the crown. But the point

559
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,800
is if you're if you're using it, you know, for

560
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,960
commodities to feed and outfit the army, or you're using it,

561
00:38:40,199 --> 00:38:43,199
you know for this like for this merino wool that's

562
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,199
coveted you know, all through Europe so you can raise money,

563
00:38:46,639 --> 00:38:48,039
you know it, say, you can put gold in the

564
00:38:48,119 --> 00:38:52,639
coffers of uh, you know, the sex and weapons developers

565
00:38:52,679 --> 00:38:54,400
that you need, you know, to fight the moors. Like

566
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,440
nobody's nobody's using that land, you know, to to to

567
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,159
build up you know, to build up the Agraean economy,

568
00:39:02,519 --> 00:39:06,360
you know, develop it and refine it and God willing,

569
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:12,519
you know, create, create or generate on surplus for export.

570
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,960
You know, like none of that is happening, you know,

571
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:25,360
and it as ah as time went on, it created

572
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,679
kind of a warfare state paradigm, you know, not in

573
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,800
like the corrupt sense. Like now, what I mean is

574
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:36,360
that you had this, You had this warrior aristocracy which

575
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,679
is like interstitially kind of bound up with the clergy

576
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,519
who both relied on each other, you know, like not

577
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,639
just for the sake of you know, the the optics

578
00:39:47,679 --> 00:39:50,159
of authority or something, you know, like if you're gonna

579
00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:52,480
if they were, if you're gonna wage a holy war,

580
00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:54,760
you better believe that you know, the Roman Church better

581
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:56,559
is going to war with you, you know, like on

582
00:39:56,679 --> 00:39:59,440
your side, and like their function is as important as

583
00:39:59,559 --> 00:40:01,719
you know the and who wheeled the blade. I mean

584
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,840
that this should be obvious, but we're not used to thinking.

585
00:40:04,039 --> 00:40:06,719
We're not usual to talking about Europeans fighting holy wars

586
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,559
like in Europe. But you know, if you're gonna expect,

587
00:40:11,679 --> 00:40:14,039
if you're gonna expect peasants like give up land and

588
00:40:14,199 --> 00:40:17,559
give up like you know, and give up the certain

589
00:40:17,599 --> 00:40:20,239
security they have, you know, from that kind of tendency,

590
00:40:20,519 --> 00:40:22,920
and you're gonna expect like freeholders, you know, to give

591
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,840
up what they own, you know, so that you know

592
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,280
these uh martial efforts, necessary as they may be, can

593
00:40:33,679 --> 00:40:37,760
can continue your lunch with the situation where like Nobles established,

594
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,639
a kind of becomes the order of the day. Okay,

595
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,239
in a way it's not in in other societies, at

596
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,559
least in Europe, like it becomes it takes on an

597
00:40:47,639 --> 00:40:53,400
outsized importance, is what I'm getting at, Okay, And that's

598
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:58,719
exactly what happened, and that endured you know, perpetually, like

599
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:03,280
after after the Europeans like one Spain mech you know,

600
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:11,280
for for christiandom A uh bib Or made the point too.

601
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,840
And Beavor's book is great because it's larded with facts

602
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:19,199
and he makes some great points. He's got some conceptual prejudices,

603
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,679
and but I rely on him a lot. He made

604
00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:24,760
the point that in the Middle Ages, from the Middle

605
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,119
Ages until the end of the UH until the end

606
00:41:29,159 --> 00:41:32,559
of the eighteenth century, Spain lost something like half its population.

607
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,800
You know. Some of that was just kind of like

608
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:42,719
you know, the kind of uh yeah, you know, oh,

609
00:41:45,559 --> 00:41:48,719
changing patterns of fecunity and things. But part was because

610
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,320
like Spain literally had to downsize because like it couldn't fee,

611
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,119
it couldn't sustain the population that one's had, you know,

612
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,079
and you've got uh an empire that's rapidly growing, but

613
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,559
it's ability to feed its people is uh decterior reading.

614
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,880
I mean, at its height, the Spanish Empire literally owned

615
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:05,559
half the planet.

616
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 1: Like people forget that, I mean, I mean even Spangler

617
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:17,199
Spangler and like Pressianism and socialism is all about mid fifteen,

618
00:42:17,519 --> 00:42:18,880
sixte hundred, seventeen hundred Spain.

619
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent one hundred percent. So again

620
00:42:25,039 --> 00:42:30,920
it was uh, it was, it was highly unusual. I mean,

621
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:32,480
I don't know if despite what people say, there's not

622
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,159
there's not some there's not some template trial empires developed,

623
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,719
you know. Uh, I mean I realize it's mostly just

624
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,760
like basic as people saying like, oh, history repeats itself.

625
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,719
I mean even even people are more sophisticated than that

626
00:42:48,599 --> 00:42:50,320
don't need to realize it's not there's not some like

627
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,400
template or something. It's kind of like natural, you know,

628
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,119
developmental cycle. Other than other than I mean, every everything,

629
00:42:59,599 --> 00:43:01,519
everything dies at some point or comes to an end.

630
00:43:01,559 --> 00:43:03,199
That's not what I mean. I mean, I mean the

631
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,280
concrete particulars you know, of of how an empire acquires

632
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,280
its fortunes, you know, maintains its agemony and then ultimately,

633
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,400
you know, loses its ability to to compete with its uh,

634
00:43:17,599 --> 00:43:19,800
to compete with its enemies, or or to sustain its

635
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:25,880
its own existence at scale. But this kind of warrior

636
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:31,159
holy warrior ethos developed in Spain. But it was it. Uh,

637
00:43:34,159 --> 00:43:37,719
it admits it came to exists among like a real

638
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:43,320
kind of perennial destabilization. You know. It isabella like one

639
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:48,000
of her one of her final kind of acts of state,

640
00:43:48,119 --> 00:43:52,599
like late in life, Dasis Narrows, who is uh this

641
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:54,519
kind of legend. I mean you probably know this because

642
00:43:54,519 --> 00:43:56,480
I mean you're a Kidli guy and like a Latin dude.

643
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:58,920
I don't know anying about it since Narrows until like

644
00:43:59,039 --> 00:44:01,239
very recently. But he was he was like this kind

645
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,119
of he was. He was, he was like this pious friar,

646
00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:06,360
you know, he's kind of the guy he's credited. It

647
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,159
was sort of structuring of the Inquisition as it came

648
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,360
to as it came to exist. And that's another thing

649
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,639
that's gross. He misunderstood by people kind of on both

650
00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:18,800
sides of the the political spectrum. We'll get into that too,

651
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:25,400
but the uh, the uh. On the one hand, you had,

652
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,599
you had this kind of tendency towards revolt that was

653
00:44:28,639 --> 00:44:32,360
burgening in Spain, especially in some of these territories that

654
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,400
you know had long been you know, like discreete principalities,

655
00:44:36,159 --> 00:44:38,480
you know, with with kind of unique cultural habits and

656
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:45,800
and and political cultures. So there the ground, the proverbial

657
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,320
soil was kind of uh was kind of eager for

658
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,199
for rebellion against central authority. Anyway, but at that time too,

659
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,800
like the papacy in Rome was was viewed as highly corrupt,

660
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,079
which it was as a lot of these like friars

661
00:45:01,119 --> 00:45:05,719
who actually were like, you know, radically pious, they found

662
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,800
themselves at odds with the papacy, who in turn, you know,

663
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:14,519
called upon, you know, the the Castilian monarchy in Spain,

664
00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:19,480
they kind of restore the status quo. But the but

665
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,000
the monarchy had to tread lately because a lot of

666
00:45:22,039 --> 00:45:25,039
these priests were kind of like more like literally more

667
00:45:25,079 --> 00:45:30,199
Catholic than the pope, you know, and the Castilian monarchs

668
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,840
entire kind of their entire mandate to that kind of extraordinary,

669
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:41,639
extraordinarily deep authority basically owed to their ability to you know,

670
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,280
maintain like the confidence and and the absolute endorsement of uh,

671
00:45:46,559 --> 00:45:49,280
of the Catholic charity. You know. So it was it

672
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,239
was central wasn't against regionalism. It was you know that

673
00:45:52,519 --> 00:45:55,719
that that weakened the structure that Furdan created. It was, uh,

674
00:45:59,079 --> 00:46:03,400
the odd dynamics of play between uh, the papacy and

675
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,000
and you know, the cardinals in Spain itself and else where.

676
00:46:09,039 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 1: It was.

677
00:46:11,119 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 2: There was a rising. Uh, there was there was a

678
00:46:14,559 --> 00:46:16,880
there was a there was a rising uh against Charles

679
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:23,639
the Fifth, who was Isabella's grandson. That was uh, that

680
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,280
was uh you know, provoked by like was viewed. It's

681
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,840
like his his his abuse of of of public moneys

682
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,199
and things. You know, it's just like typical sort of

683
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:37,400
uh discontent you know with uh, I mean with with

684
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,519
with rulers didn't well handle the fortunes of the country

685
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,360
like material and otherwise, but it took on it. It

686
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,840
took on and outside and often like literally theological meaning

687
00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:52,840
like owing to you know, some of the some of

688
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:59,320
the uh sociological tendencies at play. A lot of the

689
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,280
country had been assimilated into the in the in the

690
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,119
Castilian rule through like marriage, you know, so you had

691
00:47:05,119 --> 00:47:07,400
you had you had a Spanish halfpurt line. You know

692
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,760
that like found itself at odds with with uh or

693
00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:13,000
with with a lot of the peasantry, you know, to

694
00:47:13,519 --> 00:47:15,960
oing to complicated reasons of bloodline and things that like

695
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,400
wouldn't mean anything to an American, but had deep, uh

696
00:47:20,119 --> 00:47:21,559
deep significance to uh.

697
00:47:23,519 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: To uh.

698
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 2: You know, the people in that time and place, and

699
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:29,360
I care even to day its people like where that

700
00:47:29,679 --> 00:47:32,119
has meaning to them. I'm not saying that derisively, but

701
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,440
and there was times when you had an officer corps

702
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,880
who uh was sympathetic to you know, these guys that

703
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:45,559
like nascent uh middle class uprisings you know in like

704
00:47:45,679 --> 00:47:49,280
eighteen thirteen and eighteen forty eight. You know, ultimately the

705
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:54,800
pendulum swung the other way, you know, and which is

706
00:47:55,159 --> 00:48:00,519
where it kind of remained into the twentieth century. And

707
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,559
if you'll notice that parallel between this kind of situation

708
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,840
in Spain and the kind of situation you had in

709
00:48:07,039 --> 00:48:11,599
uh Chile, you know, uh with uh with Pinochet and

710
00:48:11,639 --> 00:48:15,480
the officers contra like civil society, like you'd be right,

711
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:20,079
Like there's something there's something to how uh you know,

712
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,760
Latin America like mirror Spain in the way that you know,

713
00:48:24,079 --> 00:48:28,920
the UK like mirrors the United States in terms of

714
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,360
political sociology and zeitgeist and other things. I find that fascinating.

715
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:32,679
Speaker 1: But it.

716
00:48:34,199 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 2: The uh, the uh like all these things like Spain

717
00:48:42,519 --> 00:48:47,599
was basically it was uh everything that the communists claimed

718
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,719
about uh, you know, capitalists, like what they viewed as

719
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,719
like you know, late capitalist failure was found in Spain,

720
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,800
you know, and in their in their mind or their propaganda.

721
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:02,440
But I mean think, I think they also believed it,

722
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:04,920
you know, they said that, like, you know, the only

723
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,639
reason why the only reason why the Church retained, the

724
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,079
Roman Church retains power in Spain is because, like the

725
00:49:10,159 --> 00:49:14,039
last the final recourse of the capitalists is the is

726
00:49:14,079 --> 00:49:18,960
to draw upon, you know, reactionary tendencies you know, within UH,

727
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,960
with within the body politic, you know, who are vulnerable

728
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,239
as such appeals, you knowing to this going to the

729
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,679
punctuated disruption of their lives. You know. So it was

730
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,920
like it was, I mean, I think you know, I'm

731
00:49:31,159 --> 00:49:33,519
was saying, like war arrives like the seasons, and there

732
00:49:33,599 --> 00:49:37,119
was matters of zeitgeist that you know, made Spain kind

733
00:49:37,159 --> 00:49:41,760
of the battle space as as it happened. But there

734
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,880
was also in more kind of and and more and

735
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:48,800
more kind of abstract terms, like abstract intellectual terms. It

736
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,559
was like Spain was there was gonna be There was

737
00:49:51,599 --> 00:49:54,480
gonna be a bullshitic uprising in Spain, you know, and

738
00:49:54,679 --> 00:49:58,320
UH and and the the Soviet Union was gonna be

739
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,800
with was gonna be insinuated into that process as much

740
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,639
as it could be without provoking a general war with

741
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,679
you know, the Third Reich or something by proxy. The

742
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:20,199
UH ironically though, and again, you know, into the twentieth century,

743
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:25,760
Spain remained economically backwards. There was a basic hostility to

744
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:31,280
commercial activity. Like it's like the Code of Hidalgo or whatever.

745
00:50:32,519 --> 00:50:35,199
It really it really didn't a certain it really did

746
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,079
despise you know, money, you know, like it went beyond

747
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,559
you know, content for usury and things. There were there's

748
00:50:41,599 --> 00:50:44,559
something not just unbecoming a nobleman or any or any

749
00:50:44,639 --> 00:50:48,880
man who's you know, an upright Christian of good race

750
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,800
and breeding, you know, taking any interest in in money

751
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:57,400
not derived you know from uh, from an estate or something.

752
00:50:58,079 --> 00:51:05,079
And it wasn't they they couldn't transition that into productive

753
00:51:05,159 --> 00:51:10,079
capital you know, like say Prussia did. You know, so

754
00:51:10,159 --> 00:51:14,679
they're not despite what you know, despite what liberals claim,

755
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:21,280
like their Marxist counterparts, you know, it's not capitalism isn't

756
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:25,679
like this fundamentally like or axiomatically like liberalizing tendency. You know,

757
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:31,360
like Prussia was arguably the most reactionary state that existed

758
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:35,599
in the modern era. And they were remarkably capitalists. I mean,

759
00:51:35,639 --> 00:51:38,599
they were they were abiding you know, the they were

760
00:51:38,639 --> 00:51:44,960
abiding the the economic victims of people Frederick List. You know, obviously,

761
00:51:45,039 --> 00:51:49,480
you know they had the correct paradigm of you know,

762
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:53,440
commercial interest being subjugated to the national interest at all times.

763
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,000
This idea that like well, you know, if you have

764
00:51:57,039 --> 00:51:58,679
you know, if you have like a basically kind of

765
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,719
like you know, martial care, if you have you know,

766
00:52:02,679 --> 00:52:08,480
a basically uh reactionary conservative elite, you know that they

767
00:52:08,639 --> 00:52:11,639
it's it's it's literally impossible for them to you know,

768
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:19,000
transition a medieval economy into a modern market, modern value

769
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:23,679
added economy with you know, where where revenues are reinvested

770
00:52:23,679 --> 00:52:26,079
in a productive capital like this bullshit, because I that's

771
00:52:26,199 --> 00:52:30,400
that like, that's literally a story of Germany and especially Prussia. Okay,

772
00:52:30,519 --> 00:52:36,000
but it uh there was a certain rigidity to things

773
00:52:36,079 --> 00:52:38,840
in Spain that that that just did not or could

774
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,559
not happen, and it was exacerbated you know, like I said,

775
00:52:42,599 --> 00:52:46,039
the the the quote era of reform, you know, like

776
00:52:46,119 --> 00:52:49,599
the mid eighteenth century, I guess until like the Napoleonic

777
00:52:50,119 --> 00:52:57,719
the final Napoleonic uh defeat in eighteen thirteen. There was

778
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,239
there was a know, you had you had a nascent

779
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,480
middle class or at least a wealthier uh you know,

780
00:53:04,639 --> 00:53:08,920
kind of a freehold class, you know, who were attracted

781
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,960
to the ideas of uh of of these Enlightenment propagandas

782
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:19,719
at least superficially that put UH, that put that put

783
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:24,480
pressure on Charles the third to issue reforms which in

784
00:53:24,559 --> 00:53:27,920
turn reduced the Church's influence over the army, where a

785
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,159
lot of officers were being you know, bought off by

786
00:53:30,199 --> 00:53:33,599
these reforms. And incidentally a lot of those officers had

787
00:53:33,639 --> 00:53:37,199
taken to Freemasonry. And that in large part is where

788
00:53:37,199 --> 00:53:40,280
you get the idea or the claim that like, you know, well,

789
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,880
masonry is this revolution from the middle kind of degenerate

790
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,159
tendency that like hates Catholicism. I'm not saying that that's

791
00:53:47,199 --> 00:53:49,679
correct or not. I'm just saying that's where it comes from. Okay,

792
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,320
so don't I don't have people sending me hate email

793
00:53:52,679 --> 00:53:59,639
or something. But that in turn caused you know, like

794
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:06,159
people blue who were you know, sympathetic to the ancient

795
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,519
regime or who were committed to the kind of caste structure,

796
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,719
and you know, the uh, the kind of paradigm of

797
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,719
a you know, an officer corps that works handing love

798
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:22,199
with the army, both of whom are you know, beholden

799
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:27,559
to an absolute monarch who uh, in turn abides, you know,

800
00:54:27,639 --> 00:54:35,119
their traditional privileges and benefits, like socially materially. So this

801
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,079
is just like a this is like a literally like

802
00:54:37,119 --> 00:54:40,880
a perfect storm of like dysfunctional tendencies. You know. It's

803
00:54:42,559 --> 00:54:46,880
and that's that's why when things jumped off in Spain,

804
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,079
you know, finally in uh in nineteen thirty six, I mean,

805
00:54:51,119 --> 00:54:54,920
there was such there was such hostility, and that's all

806
00:54:55,119 --> 00:54:57,920
I mean just I mean reciprocally, but it was also

807
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,840
the It's easy understand why even guys who weren't, you know,

808
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:11,360
diehard national socialists or like Iron Guard parisans, It's easy

809
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,000
to see why people looked at it like, look, this

810
00:55:13,119 --> 00:55:15,920
is the communists are like, they're making an example here,

811
00:55:16,159 --> 00:55:20,079
you know, the the body everything they hate. They want

812
00:55:20,119 --> 00:55:23,880
to they want to annihilate Spain and the Spanish as

813
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,639
a people, as a culture form. They want to annihilate

814
00:55:26,679 --> 00:55:29,239
the church in capacity to exist in the modern world.

815
00:55:31,079 --> 00:55:33,360
And and and then they were right, okay, I mean

816
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:39,440
that's why it became so critically symbolic. I would seem

817
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:41,000
like I was jumping around a lot, and there's a

818
00:55:41,079 --> 00:55:45,280
lot of like I hope it's useless backstory and lore.

819
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,320
But if that's the way it came off. I'm sorry.

820
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,119
I think you'll thank me as we get into this,

821
00:55:50,199 --> 00:55:51,400
because I never refer to things that.

822
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:55,159
Speaker 1: Okay, but we need that backstory because most people don't

823
00:55:55,199 --> 00:55:59,360
know the history of Spain. They yeah, they I assume

824
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:04,320
they just think it is just another feudal country, country

825
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:06,599
that went through feudalism, just like everyone else. And they

826
00:56:06,599 --> 00:56:11,320
don't realize the battles that actually battles that you would

827
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,159
see coming in the future actually happened there.

828
00:56:15,679 --> 00:56:19,639
Speaker 2: No one hundred percent. And also like as we go on, uh,

829
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:21,960
there's just like too much to like fully cover here,

830
00:56:22,079 --> 00:56:24,039
like you mentioned when we when we talked the other day,

831
00:56:24,159 --> 00:56:27,599
Like I'll get into why the Carlists were like fighting

832
00:56:27,639 --> 00:56:31,079
on the national side or the patriotic side. I'll get

833
00:56:31,119 --> 00:56:33,960
into other stuff, you know, like why like the Spanish

834
00:56:34,079 --> 00:56:37,199
Armadus defeat, you know, like tanked everything. But we're gonna

835
00:56:37,199 --> 00:56:39,320
wait till we're like in that context. And primarily though,

836
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,440
I want to focus on you know that third or

837
00:56:42,519 --> 00:56:45,599
I get war on Spain and like you know, how

838
00:56:45,679 --> 00:56:48,639
the military situation developed. So I promise we'll dive into

839
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:51,360
that very next episode.

840
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,039
Speaker 1: All right, do some plugs and we'll end it.

841
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:57,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Man. You can find me on Twitter

842
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:02,360
for the time being at Real Capital r e a

843
00:57:02,519 --> 00:57:08,719
L underscore number seven hwim s seven seven seven. If

844
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:14,320
I'm a substick, that's our primary home now Real Thomas

845
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:17,440
seven seven seven, that subsick dot com. I think in

846
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,960
good progress towards the channel. I promise things are getting done,

847
00:57:21,159 --> 00:57:23,119
even if it doesn't seem like it. I've been trying

848
00:57:23,159 --> 00:57:25,000
to work my ass off running out of content, so

849
00:57:25,199 --> 00:57:27,480
I've been trying to get people a lot of content.

850
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:29,559
I'm not being a murder like, oh I'm so great,

851
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,400
but uh keep that in mind if it seems like

852
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:37,239
I'm being an idol or a nerd rather but uh I, uh,

853
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,719
I've gotten more confidence, like in shooting video. Uh it

854
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,599
just comes out of editing it and making it, you know,

855
00:57:44,719 --> 00:57:48,840
content worthy, and uh I I basically just got to

856
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:51,239
decide on a format for you know, like my kind

857
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:54,039
of like for for for Thomas TV, which I think

858
00:57:54,159 --> 00:57:56,039
is gonna be something like a video blog, but like

859
00:57:56,159 --> 00:58:00,320
I are are Area are a video pod, but like

860
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,559
I want to have like guests like sitting there with me,

861
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:04,800
and like some people like down for that. Some people

862
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,320
are like horrified to that prospect, but I think it'll

863
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:08,960
be pretty lit. Man. But my point is, like I'm

864
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,199
working on all of these things, and I really really

865
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:14,559
appreciate everybody who gives me a platform, especially not not

866
00:58:14,679 --> 00:58:16,760
just Pete he's my dear friend, but like other people

867
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:17,480
who just reach out.

868
00:58:17,559 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 1: So thank you very much, Thomas. I appreciate it. So

869
00:58:21,639 --> 00:58:22,880
until episode two.

870
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:24,639
Speaker 2: Yes, suah, thank you.

871
00:58:26,199 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea Show.

872
00:58:29,599 --> 00:58:32,119
We are here for part two on the Spanish Civil

873
00:58:32,159 --> 00:58:35,199
War with Thomas seven seven seven. How are you doing, Thomas?

874
00:58:35,719 --> 00:58:39,119
Speaker 2: I'm very well, thank you, but I wanted to talk

875
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,920
about some today. This is going to be a recurring

876
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:50,000
theme conceptually throughout the series. There's a military dimension to

877
00:58:50,079 --> 00:58:53,320
the Spanish War that's important and was impactful in just

878
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:59,639
positive ways. There's a political aspect and kind of very

879
00:58:59,679 --> 00:59:04,960
concert three terms, especially relating to the Neutrality Act that

880
00:59:05,559 --> 00:59:08,360
had really kind of bounded the ability of the New

881
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:13,079
Dealers to act how they wanted in global terms. Frankly,

882
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:17,559
then we got into that and our Second World War

883
00:59:17,679 --> 00:59:19,559
series somewhat or a turn to that too in a

884
00:59:19,599 --> 00:59:25,400
dedicated capacity when it seems appropriate. But I'm sure that

885
00:59:25,599 --> 00:59:28,440
there's gonna be some people who say that this is

886
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,039
over in my own conceptual prejudices, and I kind of

887
00:59:31,079 --> 00:59:35,800
hit Gaelian orientation and my tendency towards German his storicism.

888
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:44,719
But the uh, the animating catalyst for the Spanish War

889
00:59:45,079 --> 00:59:47,320
was was Zeitgeist. You know, we got we got into

890
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:49,800
that in the first episode. You know, I made the

891
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:53,039
point that despite the a lot of historians make a

892
00:59:53,119 --> 00:59:56,920
point of the conspicuous absence of a fascist international, you know,

893
00:59:57,039 --> 01:00:01,719
contra a communist international. Some of that's a Cold War hangover,

894
01:00:02,079 --> 01:00:07,800
when you know, you'd have you'd have progress, you know,

895
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:13,239
self like progressive historians, you know, with's having to present

896
01:00:14,199 --> 01:00:16,199
the issue as well, see that you know, this this

897
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:18,840
was just you know, these are just capitalist states and crisis,

898
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,360
and they were they were just scrambling to sort of

899
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,280
confabulate some iteration of what appeared to be, you know,

900
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:27,079
a revolutionary tenancy in its own right that you know,

901
01:00:27,119 --> 01:00:31,679
the sort of rob the momentum of the left. You know,

902
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:36,639
that doesn't stand up to any real scrutiny anyway, But

903
01:00:40,199 --> 01:00:43,199
the fact that there was this kind of outpouring of

904
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:47,440
support for the nationalist cause, you know, which really was

905
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,559
the Cabalt cause you know, we'll get into that a

906
01:00:49,599 --> 01:00:54,760
little bit here today. I mean, you know, and like

907
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:58,039
I said, I I make a lot I guess of

908
01:00:58,599 --> 01:01:02,360
prime symbolic of events. You know, Uh, I mean, prime

909
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:07,519
symbols dominate in human psychology, you know, especially at scale,

910
01:01:07,679 --> 01:01:13,760
you know, sociologically, you know that that's that's why iconic events,

911
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:21,239
you know, defined civic memory. But also you know, that's

912
01:01:21,239 --> 01:01:26,360
why political symbols are so important, you know, particularly when

913
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:29,639
there's there's mobilization catalysts, you know, like during the Inner Warriors.

914
01:01:29,719 --> 01:01:31,920
But you know, we talked about the we talked about

915
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:35,960
the funeral, the funerals of the few, the common funeral

916
01:01:36,039 --> 01:01:40,320
of Ion Mota and that's the old Marine, you know.

917
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:44,480
And how you know, delegates from pretty much every European

918
01:01:44,559 --> 01:01:47,000
state that had any kind of active right wing movement

919
01:01:47,079 --> 01:01:50,320
or anti communist movement. You know, they turned out to

920
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,800
literally salute, you know, the the funerary train. You know,

921
01:01:54,880 --> 01:02:02,480
when they were greeted, uh, everywhere they went by these cadres.

922
01:02:02,559 --> 01:02:04,639
And that's not something that's not something that could just

923
01:02:04,719 --> 01:02:07,639
be you know, cobbled together for for photo opportunities. And

924
01:02:07,719 --> 01:02:09,960
it was very authentic and just the fact that there

925
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:14,440
were Romanians on the ground in the first place, you know,

926
01:02:14,519 --> 01:02:17,840
and then they're they're being greeted and saluted by you know,

927
01:02:18,119 --> 01:02:23,320
uh shoot Staffelman, you know, and you had Italian priests,

928
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:26,360
you know, like like like blessing them and things. And

929
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,239
then and then there's even like secular like French fascists,

930
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:31,360
like action France as types like saluting them, you know,

931
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:36,079
who had obviously like no, no, no truck with reactionary

932
01:02:36,159 --> 01:02:39,079
Catholicism as it was perceived, you know, on his own terms.

933
01:02:39,159 --> 01:02:46,400
But that's most important in America too because really some historians,

934
01:02:46,639 --> 01:02:50,400
including Anthony Beevor who I I think he's overall a

935
01:02:50,519 --> 01:02:53,800
very good historian, articularly I mean, he's not a revisionist

936
01:02:55,199 --> 01:02:59,440
really at all as far as court historians go. I

937
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:01,400
think he's probab will be the best, you know, on

938
01:03:01,559 --> 01:03:05,400
the subject of the Second World War in the interwar years.

939
01:03:06,159 --> 01:03:13,159
But he you know, he uh, he's got uh, he's

940
01:03:13,199 --> 01:03:15,920
got a tendency to kind of hit the mark but

941
01:03:17,039 --> 01:03:21,599
not really understand the the sort of depth of significance

942
01:03:21,639 --> 01:03:26,320
of some of these prime symbolic events. And he hits

943
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:29,519
the mark what he talks about the Spanish War being

944
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,159
you know, a precursor to the Second World War. I mean,

945
01:03:32,199 --> 01:03:35,880
he perceives even a guy like him who rejects, you know,

946
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,480
the kind of historicism of a guy like Novelty and

947
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:43,960
and you know uh as well as you know the

948
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:48,199
the the contrary storicism of people like Osbam. But he

949
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,679
doesn't identify you know, like a common uh nucleus of

950
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:57,639
approximate causation there. But it it was deeper than just

951
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:00,760
you know what kind of a kind of opening act

952
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:06,079
of hostilities relating to you know, extent you know, geostrategic

953
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:11,599
ambitions and and and intentions. You know it really it

954
01:04:11,679 --> 01:04:15,320
really was apocable and and ideological and a matter of

955
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:18,840
zeitgeist as the why, as the why why what animated

956
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:21,400
Germany to intervene in Spain? Why the Soviets staked it

957
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:25,400
the way they did, you know why you know, i uh,

958
01:04:26,719 --> 01:04:29,760
progressives in America and in the UK, you know, who

959
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:31,639
identify themselves as you know, on the side of the

960
01:04:31,719 --> 01:04:37,360
Coot democracy movement, which which is incredibly misguided and deliberately

961
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:39,639
it was a deliberate lie. And we're going to get

962
01:04:39,639 --> 01:04:43,159
into that. So that that's a question at Bars kind

963
01:04:43,199 --> 01:04:46,679
of like why Spain, Well, well, we think of like

964
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,039
speaking of civic myths, so can we think of we

965
01:04:49,119 --> 01:04:51,079
think of the kind of prived symbols The left likes

966
01:04:51,119 --> 01:04:53,199
to trot out as like the horrors of you know

967
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:56,760
that which came before one of the big ones is

968
01:04:56,880 --> 01:05:02,599
the Inquisition or the Crusades. They can't really, they can't

969
01:05:02,639 --> 01:05:05,400
really expand upon what they mean by that, you know,

970
01:05:06,079 --> 01:05:09,000
like what inquisition, because there was three. There's the Portuguese Inquisition,

971
01:05:09,119 --> 01:05:11,679
there was the Italian, and there was a Spanish. The

972
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:16,599
Spanish Inquisition was the most politically significant. I'd say it

973
01:05:16,719 --> 01:05:21,239
was initiated by Isabella in fourteen seventy eight. You know,

974
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:23,079
when we talked about ferd In and Isabella, like the

975
01:05:23,159 --> 01:05:27,320
irony of a of a of them, like preceding the

976
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:29,760
Westphalian state, you know, by a century and a half.

977
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:35,159
But but but Catholic Spain, like like like Ferdinand really

978
01:05:35,199 --> 01:05:42,480
did make Spain and national Catholic state sight unseen, you know,

979
01:05:42,599 --> 01:05:47,400
in a in a way that is at odds with

980
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:53,719
with Spain's kind of stagnant and traditionalist culture. I don't

981
01:05:53,719 --> 01:05:58,280
mean that punitively, that's just a fact. But the Spanish

982
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:04,119
Inquisition endured for three hundred years. It's agreed upon now

983
01:06:04,559 --> 01:06:07,519
by everybody. Okay, my court of story and provisionists or whatever.

984
01:06:07,719 --> 01:06:10,800
I could pull out citations, but I don't think it's necessary.

985
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:14,079
If somebody really wants them now or on any topic

986
01:06:14,119 --> 01:06:17,000
we cover, I can provide them, but con of me directly.

987
01:06:17,679 --> 01:06:19,880
I'm not being autistic or something like. People do that

988
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:22,519
to me, They're like, that's a bullshit, figure, where's your source. Well,

989
01:06:23,119 --> 01:06:24,679
I can source everything, but I'm not going to sit

990
01:06:24,719 --> 01:06:30,679
here and relate, you know, citations like a shithead. But

991
01:06:32,679 --> 01:06:35,800
between three thousand and six thousand people in three hundred

992
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:39,039
years of the Inquisition Spanish Inquisition, we're put to death, Okay,

993
01:06:39,119 --> 01:06:44,079
based on convictions. That's about two point seven percent of

994
01:06:44,159 --> 01:06:52,599
all cases. Okay. In one year nineteen thirty six, the

995
01:06:52,719 --> 01:06:57,679
Communists and their socialist allies in Spain slaughtered about six

996
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:01,519
thousand priests and nuns, you know, just outright, they just

997
01:07:01,639 --> 01:07:08,280
massacred them. Okay, So within the first year of a

998
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:12,280
three year conflict more clergy people were categorically slaughtered by

999
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:17,079
the Communists and their democratic allies. Then the total number

1000
01:07:17,119 --> 01:07:21,000
of people put to death by the Inquisition or three centuries.

1001
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:23,719
The Inquisition is what you're like taught, is this like

1002
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:27,039
event of abject horror in the Stroga record. Like I'm

1003
01:07:27,079 --> 01:07:28,599
not cadaic, so I don't I don't have sound like

1004
01:07:28,639 --> 01:07:30,280
direct dog in that fight, other than the fact that

1005
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:32,800
this kind of thing is discussing to anybody who's.

1006
01:07:32,599 --> 01:07:33,159
Speaker 1: At all normal.

1007
01:07:34,639 --> 01:07:37,079
Speaker 2: But that really jumped out at me, Like as I

1008
01:07:37,119 --> 01:07:39,280
said that deep diving into Cali history and I'm findingly

1009
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:42,639
like twenty five years ago. No, okay, not because like

1010
01:07:42,679 --> 01:07:45,639
I believe that, like you know, the Inquisition was, you know,

1011
01:07:46,519 --> 01:07:50,039
this kind of horror show where this kind of singular

1012
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:54,599
instance of brutality that's just unparalleled by anything comparable. I mean,

1013
01:07:54,639 --> 01:07:57,639
I knew that court history was histriotic. I knew that

1014
01:07:57,679 --> 01:08:07,199
they lied, but it's remarkable, like contra the violence that

1015
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:13,920
was instigated against you know, the Cadlic clergy itself, you

1016
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:16,159
know within really it wasn't until a few years ago

1017
01:08:16,239 --> 01:08:20,199
living memory, you know, the if you if you want to,

1018
01:08:20,239 --> 01:08:23,079
if you want to vilify the Roman Church, there's a

1019
01:08:23,119 --> 01:08:26,000
lot of ways you can do it without opening yourself

1020
01:08:26,119 --> 01:08:28,479
up to that kind of criticism. Okay, but I that's

1021
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:31,319
another example of some something like that particular myth. I

1022
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:34,239
was making the point that a bunch of people lament

1023
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:36,760
you know, the information age and the kind of corrupting

1024
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:40,560
influence of you know, this kind of like totally immersion

1025
01:08:41,359 --> 01:08:46,199
like in screens, you know it there, it's more it's

1026
01:08:46,239 --> 01:08:48,880
more of a liberation mechanism than it is you know,

1027
01:08:49,079 --> 01:08:51,640
like one of then and then then it's like a

1028
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:55,359
check called psychic slavery. And there's just like one example, okay,

1029
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:58,000
like forty years ago you could band you out of

1030
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,119
the end position was the most horrible thing ever. And

1031
01:09:00,239 --> 01:09:03,680
thank god that you know, the Democrats in nineteen thirty six,

1032
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:06,560
you know, stopped it from from oppressing women and slaughtering

1033
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:09,960
people and you know, like crucifying gay people and sitting

1034
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:13,159
on fire like you get away with that, Okay, even

1035
01:09:13,199 --> 01:09:15,920
people who knew it wasn't true, they couldn't just like

1036
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:17,920
rebut you like with him seconds like from the phone

1037
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:21,279
in their pocket, okay. And it was making the point

1038
01:09:21,359 --> 01:09:26,079
that you know, we're not we're not running evangelical church,

1039
01:09:26,159 --> 01:09:28,560
we're not missionaries. So I mean, I don't go out

1040
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:30,680
in the world and say to people like see, like

1041
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:32,600
this is what you've been lied to look look at

1042
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:41,119
the figures on my phone for the imposition, but for

1043
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:45,079
the people who are you know, interested in real history

1044
01:09:45,079 --> 01:09:47,520
and know, for the people who are charged for political

1045
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:50,920
or patriotic reasons or just because I could feels like

1046
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:53,119
a calling me and like Cornea that sounds like I

1047
01:09:53,159 --> 01:09:55,079
feel like being a revision is just like my calling.

1048
01:09:55,199 --> 01:10:01,000
That's like what God wants me to do. It. You

1049
01:10:01,079 --> 01:10:04,159
don't feel so much like you're brushing up against Leviathan

1050
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:08,479
and trying to correct these lies of history. And it's

1051
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:14,079
also even if you think yourself basically immune to Zeitgeist,

1052
01:10:14,399 --> 01:10:17,760
you're not okay. You're gonna internalize features of it, even

1053
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:20,359
if you're doing so in oppositional terms, because it's like

1054
01:10:20,399 --> 01:10:22,960
the weather, you know, like it's coming back, you know,

1055
01:10:23,079 --> 01:10:26,000
like in Natural Born Killers. That might seem like a

1056
01:10:26,119 --> 01:10:28,680
corny thing to site in a serious discussion, but it's

1057
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:33,359
actually a pretty profound film, I think owing in large

1058
01:10:33,359 --> 01:10:36,039
part of the screenplay. There's one part where you know

1059
01:10:36,079 --> 01:10:38,640
what he harrelse and he's like he's modeled on stark Weather,

1060
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:40,720
you know. He says to the guy he's supposed to

1061
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:43,239
be like Heroldo, who's played by Robert Downey Junior. He's like,

1062
01:10:43,239 --> 01:10:45,119
you know, he's like, media is like weather, but it's

1063
01:10:45,199 --> 01:10:48,600
man made weather, you know, and and that's true, you know,

1064
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:53,159
and the degree to which there was only the degree

1065
01:10:53,199 --> 01:10:58,279
which there's a bully pulpit for historical claims and narrative,

1066
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,800
you know, the kind of brief window an absolute turns brief.

1067
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:04,960
I mean between when visual media you know, from the

1068
01:11:05,039 --> 01:11:07,479
movie house and then you know, to the TV screen

1069
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:10,159
and then like the ubiquity of you know, the cable

1070
01:11:10,239 --> 01:11:14,279
media cycle that was edged out by Internet very rapidly

1071
01:11:14,319 --> 01:11:16,600
after it reached the zenith. But there was a brief

1072
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:18,439
period of zenith, you know, in the eighties and to

1073
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:21,199
like the mid nineties where it was just absolute okay,

1074
01:11:21,399 --> 01:11:24,399
like it was, it could not be fucked with. It

1075
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:28,560
was like like you were like, if you were a visionist,

1076
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:30,800
you were a proverbial ninety pounds weekling and media was

1077
01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:33,800
Mike Tyson in nineteen eighty eight, Okay, like it. There's

1078
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:38,800
just nothing you could do to it, okay. And even uh,

1079
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:42,479
even the climate was such that even even the people

1080
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:44,960
who are otherwise receptive you just come off like a

1081
01:11:45,039 --> 01:11:51,520
crank okay, because you know, literally, like the conceptual weather system.

1082
01:11:52,039 --> 01:11:55,439
You know, don't evoke the metaphor again, was completely at

1083
01:11:55,479 --> 01:11:59,239
odds with what you were declaring, okay, and that the

1084
01:11:59,319 --> 01:12:03,000
degree to which you know, Internet changed everything and cannot

1085
01:12:03,039 --> 01:12:05,520
be overstated, and that that's why that's why Twitter went

1086
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:07,840
early berserk, you know, like a few years back, and

1087
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:11,199
that's why now, like you run an Internet search. I

1088
01:12:11,279 --> 01:12:13,359
just went in an occur Internet search for polio, like

1089
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:15,079
not even because I was on a discussion with a

1090
01:12:15,119 --> 01:12:16,840
guy that does a lot of research on AIDS and

1091
01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:24,119
on like idiolog itsiological like sources of disease. So I

1092
01:12:24,159 --> 01:12:26,000
don't know, like learn about polio. I didn't type been

1093
01:12:26,079 --> 01:12:29,439
like is polio fake or something? My first result is

1094
01:12:29,479 --> 01:12:32,079
that there is a conspiracy theory that polio was created

1095
01:12:32,079 --> 01:12:34,119
by the government. Or it's like I didn't ask that,

1096
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:36,600
you know, It's like, so they're showing their hand, like

1097
01:12:37,199 --> 01:12:39,960
I could probably I could probably run a search like

1098
01:12:40,039 --> 01:12:42,279
naval oranges or for like puppy dogs, and it would

1099
01:12:42,279 --> 01:12:45,039
be like, you know, the Nazis puppy dogs because they

1100
01:12:45,039 --> 01:12:48,000
were the most evil people ever or something like I

1101
01:12:48,079 --> 01:12:50,159
should You're not it's like that extreme, But the point

1102
01:12:50,239 --> 01:12:54,439
is like it's not they're they're not even they're they're

1103
01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:56,439
not even willing to you know, just kind of like

1104
01:12:56,479 --> 01:13:00,920
deploy like legions of uh of a like disinfo people

1105
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:04,760
to like you know, Twitter or like or do Instagram

1106
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:07,119
and interesting and so many people are doing like screen

1107
01:13:07,199 --> 01:13:10,640
capture to like get like concepts out, you know. And

1108
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:13,039
then I'm interested in how they're how they're gonna. They're

1109
01:13:13,039 --> 01:13:16,079
already shutting stuff down into auspices of you know, that's

1110
01:13:16,119 --> 01:13:18,960
inappropriate for children or something. But it's that I don't

1111
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:24,079
want to go too far the topic. But in the event, Okay,

1112
01:13:24,119 --> 01:13:27,239
so why is Spain and why did the communists attack

1113
01:13:27,319 --> 01:13:29,960
the clergy like this? I mean like we know why,

1114
01:13:30,279 --> 01:13:33,079
like in terms of you know why they hated the

1115
01:13:33,199 --> 01:13:36,600
church and we know why, you know, bullshit at cadres

1116
01:13:37,159 --> 01:13:40,039
if you like clergy people as standard bearers of of

1117
01:13:40,079 --> 01:13:45,000
a counter revolutionary tendency of tremendous power, but just hand

1118
01:13:45,079 --> 01:13:52,239
over fists like slaughtering clergy people, it seems like it's

1119
01:13:52,319 --> 01:13:57,720
bad optics. Okay, Now, for a long time, what the

1120
01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:01,720
what the elk with the ELBI was of the left

1121
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:07,359
in Spain. It was a strange transition period after Franco died.

1122
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:11,000
Franco was elderly, but he died somewhat abruptly, and as

1123
01:14:11,039 --> 01:14:14,960
you might have imagined the especially in those days, you know,

1124
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,039
in nineteen seventy five, there was not a lot of

1125
01:14:17,119 --> 01:14:20,359
news coming out of Madrid about, you know, the the

1126
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:23,560
kind of health of Franco, but also too like people

1127
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:26,119
like like ahead of state, now he's got, he's got

1128
01:14:26,239 --> 01:14:28,600
like doctors like a bosass feared to be literally like

1129
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:31,560
all the time, you know, like in those days, it

1130
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:37,680
was not like people even if you know, it was

1131
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:40,520
not clear, like what the state of somebody's health was

1132
01:14:40,560 --> 01:14:43,880
always isn't There wasn't this uh, there wasn't this kind

1133
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:47,520
of a there There wasn't this kind of ongoing like

1134
01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:51,119
revolutionary shift, Like there wasn't Portugal, you know, like uh

1135
01:14:51,399 --> 01:14:53,840
like sales ar amount other things averted a buddy civil war.

1136
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:57,960
I mean that's a topic for another pod or series entirely.

1137
01:14:58,079 --> 01:15:01,279
But Franco dies, suddenly it becomes clear that people an't

1138
01:15:01,279 --> 01:15:04,119
gonna accept you know, like uh, you know, the the

1139
01:15:04,199 --> 01:15:07,600
reinstitution of just the constitutional monarchy. It becomes clear that

1140
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:10,239
like even if Franco had a successor, he wasn't gonna

1141
01:15:10,239 --> 01:15:13,039
be accepted. Either Spain's now like been in NATO for

1142
01:15:13,079 --> 01:15:15,840
many years, you know, it was, it's been it's been integrated,

1143
01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:18,399
poor man in Europe as it may be, it's it's

1144
01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:24,359
been integrated, you know for decades into the ec it Uh.

1145
01:15:25,239 --> 01:15:26,560
But there were there was like in terms of like

1146
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:32,560
the ideological culture, there was problems, you know, especially because

1147
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:34,880
you know, not just knowing to the Cold War, but

1148
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:37,279
it's you know, it's they weren't gonna if if they

1149
01:15:37,399 --> 01:15:40,239
tried to pull like what South Africa did, you know,

1150
01:15:40,319 --> 01:15:44,159
the Truth Reconciliation Committee or something like that, that things

1151
01:15:44,199 --> 01:15:49,520
would have deteriorated if not into you know, civil war

1152
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:51,800
like it would it would it would have permanently gridlocked,

1153
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:55,880
you know, the government, the emergent government, and it would

1154
01:15:55,880 --> 01:15:59,680
have had no legitimacy. But the kind of alibi was

1155
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:02,319
always well that was the Soviets doing that, you know,

1156
01:16:02,399 --> 01:16:04,840
and the NKBB was doing that, and the or these

1157
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:07,520
were just you know, outli these are outliers. You know,

1158
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:10,000
these were violent people doing terrible things because this was

1159
01:16:10,079 --> 01:16:16,520
like a bad time. Well interestingly this was uh, but

1160
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:18,920
they they tried to blame it. They always blame it

1161
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:21,960
on the anarchists that too, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was

1162
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:24,039
these there was there was these anarchist cycle pass and

1163
01:16:24,159 --> 01:16:24,640
you know they.

1164
01:16:25,359 --> 01:16:27,239
Speaker 1: They were the one digging up the you know, the

1165
01:16:27,319 --> 01:16:31,800
famous and taking pictures of them.

1166
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:36,199
Speaker 2: But it there was an incident or there's a series

1167
01:16:36,199 --> 01:16:39,520
of incident specifically from November seventh to December fourth, nineteen

1168
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:45,840
thirty six, there's this kind other peak of of revolutionary violence, okay, uh,

1169
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:51,720
especially in in the cities and uh like the provinces

1170
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:59,640
immediately abutting the ones uh containing the cities. November seventh

1171
01:16:59,800 --> 01:17:04,119
to Approxed me December fourth, ninety thirty six, a bunch

1172
01:17:04,159 --> 01:17:06,479
of political prisoners helped him Madrid to jails. They were

1173
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:12,640
just spontaneously evacuated, like the outlying provinces. And these people

1174
01:17:12,720 --> 01:17:15,319
were these were all political prisoners, okay, like some of

1175
01:17:15,359 --> 01:17:18,239
them had been imperisrated on grounds that they were anti

1176
01:17:18,319 --> 01:17:21,520
social or something. But these these are trumped up charges.

1177
01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:23,920
These weren't criminals, okay, that I need to make that clear.

1178
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:31,399
They were they were evacuated over these weeks on mass

1179
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:35,520
and and and they were they were executed. They were

1180
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:42,439
just exterminated. The man responsible at that time for jails

1181
01:17:42,479 --> 01:17:47,880
in public order was a man named Solarius, Santiago Solarius.

1182
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:51,199
He was all twenty one years old in ninety thirty six,

1183
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:57,199
and that was part of his alibi, okay, upon return

1184
01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:02,039
from exile with the Franco, because everybody got you know, amnesty,

1185
01:18:02,319 --> 01:18:04,279
like the jury as well as like the facto. I mean,

1186
01:18:04,319 --> 01:18:06,960
this was very much and any spatter to live through it,

1187
01:18:07,039 --> 01:18:10,159
We'll tell you, I'm sure this is very deliberate, you know,

1188
01:18:10,279 --> 01:18:13,239
like we we've got to finesse these bad feelings and

1189
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:16,840
let the past become the past, you know, which under

1190
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:20,600
more ordinary circumstances would probably be a laudable What the

1191
01:18:22,319 --> 01:18:25,720
what Solari's defenders claimed the chorus, Well, this this, these

1192
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:28,960
are just false propaganda. You know, outright, this just didn't happen.

1193
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:35,560
But then as evidence mounted it uh you know what

1194
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:40,880
uh what Solarios is people themselves claimed as well as

1195
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:42,560
kind of what the regime came to claim in like

1196
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:45,680
a soft pedaling kind of way, was that well, you know,

1197
01:18:46,159 --> 01:18:48,720
there were there were there were extradusicial killings that were wrong,

1198
01:18:49,319 --> 01:18:52,640
but these were arbitrary and caprecious, you know, extradusial killings

1199
01:18:52,680 --> 01:18:56,880
that were were isolated incidents. You know, they weren't categorical,

1200
01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:04,119
they weren't organized well. In two thousand and four, historian

1201
01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:09,399
a guy named rather the Spanish historian UH. Kind of

1202
01:19:09,439 --> 01:19:11,640
a right friendly guy, but like more of a conservative,

1203
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:14,800
you know, not he wasn't the guy who could be

1204
01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:17,399
just kind of dismissed as some like right winger. I

1205
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:20,479
mean it's not really that's not grounds of objective grounds

1206
01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:22,880
to dismiss somebody's findings anyway, but you don't saying what

1207
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:25,800
I mean, like this guy wasn't some idealogue with the

1208
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:30,800
you know, the kind of milk toast regime is the

1209
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:37,399
kind that you know can be only kind of regime

1210
01:19:37,439 --> 01:19:39,840
in Europe after the Cold War? Would you can kind

1211
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:45,319
of dismiss the He began digging into the archives of UH,

1212
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:54,439
the UH, the Iberian Anarchist Federation and the National Confederation

1213
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:59,800
of Labor, which united at some point prior to the

1214
01:20:00,039 --> 01:20:04,960
onset of hostilities. And there are archives were housed in Amsterdam,

1215
01:20:05,439 --> 01:20:08,039
where I believe and I'm not trying to set Dutch people,

1216
01:20:08,159 --> 01:20:12,319
but there's there's a lot of there was a lot

1217
01:20:12,399 --> 01:20:18,960
of communist cadre and revolutionary party archives and sensitive documents

1218
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:21,960
housed in Holland. Okay, I don't know why that is,

1219
01:20:22,399 --> 01:20:24,920
but that I don't that can't be disputed. Okay, that's

1220
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:35,279
why these documents are located there. Riverite discovered the literal

1221
01:20:35,399 --> 01:20:41,479
minutes of meeting, you know, between the Iberian Federation field

1222
01:20:41,560 --> 01:20:47,920
commanders and the National Federational Labor like security element, and

1223
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:52,399
they literally described a classification protocol for who should be

1224
01:20:52,439 --> 01:20:57,359
exterminated just on categorical terms. Okay, And these people who

1225
01:20:57,439 --> 01:21:01,920
were evacuated, these political detainees, they all fell into that category, right.

1226
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:04,640
These are people who identified as fasci as sympathetic, you know,

1227
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:07,800
people who were you know, lay people in the calyb Church,

1228
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:12,359
who had some role people just been denounced, you know.

1229
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:15,520
And this was something of a mini scandal, I mean,

1230
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:19,079
not just in academic quarters, but because even even up two,

1231
01:21:20,680 --> 01:21:23,840
you know, and unfree as occupied Europe is like Spain's

1232
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:26,680
kind of a different thing, not just because it's not

1233
01:21:26,760 --> 01:21:29,560
directly occupied by America, but it's you know, it wasn't

1234
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:32,319
a direct combat into World War two. It's you know,

1235
01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:35,600
there was more. I'm not gonna go as far. First

1236
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:37,279
of all, I'm not an expert in the culture at all,

1237
01:21:37,399 --> 01:21:39,399
but and I'm certainly not going to go as far

1238
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:41,560
as to say that, you know, Spain is a more

1239
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:45,079
kind of reasoned view of historical matters. But it's different,

1240
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:50,239
you know, that can't be denied. And as I've dived

1241
01:21:50,319 --> 01:21:54,039
deeper into this, that becomes clear, like the historical controversies

1242
01:21:54,079 --> 01:21:57,199
of Spain, you know, so they're a buddle to this,

1243
01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:06,399
uh evidence. There's a leftist historian named anghel vinas Venus

1244
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:09,600
claimed like, well, yeah, this happened these these the minutes

1245
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:14,520
from this meeting. That's not that's not, you know, a forgery. However,

1246
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:17,119
he's like, this was we were on we were being

1247
01:22:17,239 --> 01:22:18,920
ordered to do this by the Soviet you know, like

1248
01:22:19,159 --> 01:22:21,239
our predecessors, you know, they were being ordered to do

1249
01:22:21,359 --> 01:22:25,079
this by the Soviet Union. And the man primarily colored

1250
01:22:25,079 --> 01:22:29,079
build who was a man named Alexander Orlov. Who's Alexander Orlov?

1251
01:22:29,119 --> 01:22:33,000
Well he was the chief of the nkv D in Spain. Okay,

1252
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:37,399
So okay, there's problems with an alibi for a lot

1253
01:22:37,439 --> 01:22:39,880
of reasons. It's like, okay, if you're under let's say,

1254
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:42,199
let's say that's undrescent correct. Okay, so you're under duress.

1255
01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:45,760
Why was there an nkv D in Spain? I mean

1256
01:22:46,399 --> 01:22:48,560
like there was there literally was an nkv D office

1257
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:54,279
in Spain, you know, and as you know, uh, I

1258
01:22:54,319 --> 01:22:56,319
mean that raises questions of his own. It's like, okay,

1259
01:22:56,439 --> 01:22:58,239
well they got there somehow. Are you saying the Soviet

1260
01:22:58,319 --> 01:23:01,600
Union invaded Spain? You know you were powerless to resist them,

1261
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:04,720
you know, they they you invited the men to help

1262
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:07,439
you fight against a fascist coup that was burgening, but

1263
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:12,079
then they took over. I mean, this isn't it's not

1264
01:23:12,159 --> 01:23:14,039
just this is preposterous, but I mean in some ways

1265
01:23:14,079 --> 01:23:17,760
it's worse than what what the initial allegation was, you know.

1266
01:23:19,319 --> 01:23:22,239
But it also it cuts against to your point, like

1267
01:23:22,319 --> 01:23:26,359
the alibi for the preceding you know, sixty seventy years

1268
01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:28,640
had been well that was that, that was these that

1269
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:31,119
was these anarchists who were prabakently fascist themselves. They had

1270
01:23:31,119 --> 01:23:33,119
nothing to do with us, and these were just crazy people.

1271
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:36,039
You know. It's like, okay, so now not now you

1272
01:23:36,079 --> 01:23:38,399
were acting under orders of the Soviets, and not of

1273
01:23:38,439 --> 01:23:41,399
the Soviets but the nkv D. And like you had

1274
01:23:41,479 --> 01:23:44,840
Russian officers who had you know, who were cadres, who

1275
01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:47,880
who had authority over your own people in the field,

1276
01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:51,560
Like what is this? You know, like I weren't. Weren't

1277
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:52,920
you all a bunch of once you are a bunch

1278
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:56,920
of liberal democrats and you know, uh that and that's

1279
01:23:56,960 --> 01:23:59,359
why and people love freedom like joined to go to

1280
01:23:59,479 --> 01:24:01,680
go to go fight against the fascists. I mean, like

1281
01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:06,199
it's this like, on the one hand, on i'd say this,

1282
01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:08,760
I'd say that this guy is not particularly credible, but

1283
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:11,520
again it's that it's somebody that's more incriminating than what

1284
01:24:12,760 --> 01:24:17,039
than the prima fascia inferenced one would draw from documents.

1285
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:21,119
But it also too when I a friend of mine

1286
01:24:21,159 --> 01:24:23,159
made this point when he and I were discussing this,

1287
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:27,840
and uh, you know, he's he's got a law background,

1288
01:24:27,880 --> 01:24:30,279
like guy who I mean, maybe this is our kind

1289
01:24:30,279 --> 01:24:33,199
of like bias in common for how we approach evidence.

1290
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:38,600
But he's like, you know, he's like, there's a if

1291
01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:42,000
you're that cavalier about like who you're gonna categorically annihilate?

1292
01:24:42,239 --> 01:24:44,359
You know, we're talking about non combatants and we're not.

1293
01:24:44,399 --> 01:24:46,960
We're not using euphemisms like these people are bandits and

1294
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:50,760
these are you know, partisans. You know, we're not we're

1295
01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:53,600
not using the language of like MELI four and like saying, well,

1296
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:56,279
these people are insurgents, like conveniently like leaving out you know,

1297
01:24:56,399 --> 01:24:59,439
like their age, sex or or overall health. You're just

1298
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:02,399
like literally talking about like, okay, people identified under these

1299
01:25:02,399 --> 01:25:05,720
categories as political detainees, you know, there to be terminated,

1300
01:25:06,279 --> 01:25:09,840
Like you're very very confident, uh that this is never

1301
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:14,479
going to come to light. You know, it's basically you're

1302
01:25:14,479 --> 01:25:18,600
you're not worried about being taken to task after you know,

1303
01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:25,079
General Franco or you know, or his German allies roll

1304
01:25:25,159 --> 01:25:27,119
over you and and then and then put you on

1305
01:25:27,239 --> 01:25:29,760
trial for this or like you know, put two rounds

1306
01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:32,520
in the back of your head as payback, or just

1307
01:25:32,600 --> 01:25:36,239
because you know you're you've obviously you know, you're obviously

1308
01:25:36,239 --> 01:25:42,199
an irredeemable partisan, you know. And his point was that

1309
01:25:43,119 --> 01:25:46,359
these people had assurances from the Soviet Union from day one,

1310
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:48,640
like don't worry about it, We're not going to let

1311
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:54,880
you lose. And I think that's a correct interpretation. Okay,

1312
01:25:55,079 --> 01:25:57,560
I couldn't prove it in a corel of law, but

1313
01:25:59,760 --> 01:26:01,560
you know, one thing you don't find, you don't find

1314
01:26:01,560 --> 01:26:05,840
the Soviet Union like issuing you know, in ninety thirty nine,

1315
01:26:07,319 --> 01:26:11,239
you know, issuing telegrams to field commanders about like annihilating

1316
01:26:11,319 --> 01:26:15,159
a non combatants at Ketyan. You don't find Hirich Himmler

1317
01:26:15,239 --> 01:26:19,439
saying like, you know, hey, by the way, you know

1318
01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:22,760
these people this is a race war, and like these

1319
01:26:22,760 --> 01:26:25,439
people are categorical enemies. So I'm gonna put on paper.

1320
01:26:25,520 --> 01:26:27,640
I just think you should waste them all, you know.

1321
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:30,079
I mean, this is remarkable for a lot of reasons. Okay,

1322
01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:32,760
can I ask you a question?

1323
01:26:33,319 --> 01:26:40,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think that the Soviet Union was planning

1324
01:26:40,079 --> 01:26:43,640
on winning the war and staying there? I mean Orloff

1325
01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:47,560
was the one who took all of the Spanish gold

1326
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:51,159
to Moscow, right, and they and they bragged, and Stalin

1327
01:26:51,239 --> 01:26:53,239
bragged about how it was going to be a robbery.

1328
01:26:54,279 --> 01:26:58,479
And then Orloff in thirty eight has to defect because

1329
01:26:59,680 --> 01:27:03,079
style and starts his purge of you know, a certain

1330
01:27:03,159 --> 01:27:03,840
religious group.

1331
01:27:04,640 --> 01:27:09,000
Speaker 2: Right. What I think is, I mean, you get the

1332
01:27:09,039 --> 01:27:12,239
way the Soviet Union looked at things. I basically agree

1333
01:27:12,279 --> 01:27:16,000
with Suberovs hypothesis. I think jackham Hoffman makes a better

1334
01:27:16,119 --> 01:27:24,560
case for it in purely strategic terms and like practical terms,

1335
01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:28,840
pragmatic terms. Okay, Stalin had to show up to fight

1336
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:31,520
in Spain. Otherwise he would have lost all credibility, as

1337
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:35,279
you know, like the Soviet people would have lost all

1338
01:27:35,279 --> 01:27:38,319
credibility as like you know that the vanguard of like

1339
01:27:38,439 --> 01:27:42,079
the World Revolution and like as we discussed before, and

1340
01:27:42,159 --> 01:27:45,800
it kind of curns with capacity people misunderstand socialism in

1341
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:48,640
one country and what Stalin was trying, what he meant

1342
01:27:48,680 --> 01:27:50,600
by that in literal terms, and what he was trying

1343
01:27:50,640 --> 01:27:54,439
to project by that, And so the dog was away,

1344
01:27:54,600 --> 01:27:57,039
Like he wasn't saying like we have abandoned the World

1345
01:27:57,079 --> 01:27:59,359
Revolution or that like we are some kind of like

1346
01:27:59,439 --> 01:28:02,119
a tarcic inward looking state like a giant North Korea.

1347
01:28:02,319 --> 01:28:05,720
You have not saying those things at all. Okay, you've

1348
01:28:05,720 --> 01:28:07,279
got to be pretty well versed or at least in

1349
01:28:07,279 --> 01:28:09,600
a rudimentary capacity. You've got to understand like what what

1350
01:28:09,960 --> 01:28:13,039
what orthodox like Leninism is to understand what he was saying.

1351
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:18,800
And you've got to understand why the Soviet people, like

1352
01:28:18,960 --> 01:28:21,159
what on what basis they were claiming, you know, to

1353
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:23,880
to be like the first among nations like in the

1354
01:28:23,960 --> 01:28:27,159
social revolution. That's the connext with which to understand it.

1355
01:28:28,239 --> 01:28:32,399
Spain was where like the battle lines were drawn. Spain

1356
01:28:32,600 --> 01:28:36,439
is where you know, the bulship has collided, you know,

1357
01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:40,279
with the true like reactionary enemy like the Soviets had

1358
01:28:40,319 --> 01:28:43,039
to show up to fight. What I think Stalin thought

1359
01:28:43,039 --> 01:28:46,000
he could do was he thought the NKV the people

1360
01:28:46,159 --> 01:28:51,039
like or of people like Eric Milk, You thought that basically,

1361
01:28:51,199 --> 01:28:55,479
like uh, you know, he could arm and equip the

1362
01:28:55,600 --> 01:28:59,319
Reds other thing they needed. Uh. The Nationalists didn't really

1363
01:28:59,319 --> 01:29:03,399
have a pot to pitch until uh Milchin Gary came

1364
01:29:03,479 --> 01:29:09,399
to rescue you know, after uh, after Canaris uh act

1365
01:29:09,479 --> 01:29:12,680
as emissary for Franco's people, you know, and then and

1366
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:15,119
then the Reds had a problem. But you know, the

1367
01:29:15,239 --> 01:29:19,039
view from Moscow was, uh, you know, the the kind

1368
01:29:19,079 --> 01:29:22,960
of revolutionaries, you know, the Falangees, uh, the national Catholics,

1369
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:26,359
the Carlos, They're gonna get smashed. We're gonna mop up.

1370
01:29:26,399 --> 01:29:28,159
And if we have to stack a million bodies up

1371
01:29:28,239 --> 01:29:30,720
a priest non as Falangis and anybody else who's not

1372
01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:34,359
with the program will do that. The Germans are then

1373
01:29:34,439 --> 01:29:39,399
gonna freak the funk out, you know, uh, and anything

1374
01:29:39,680 --> 01:29:43,760
especially because uh, you know Spain and France it already

1375
01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:47,680
like openly declared you know, sympathy if not, you know, allegiance,

1376
01:29:48,399 --> 01:29:52,039
you know with the with the Reds that was gonna exacerbate,

1377
01:29:52,279 --> 01:29:54,119
you know, like the war in the West that Stalin

1378
01:29:54,199 --> 01:29:58,680
always believe was imminent. The uh, the Germans are gonna

1379
01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:02,680
get bogged down u like they did in nineteen fourteen,

1380
01:30:04,199 --> 01:30:07,319
as like Germany bleeds white like Stalin and the Red

1381
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:09,920
Army was gonna like smash from the through from the east.

1382
01:30:10,640 --> 01:30:14,479
You know. That was like ideally would have happened, you know,

1383
01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:18,720
but it wasn't. But just Stalin wasn't ready yet. And

1384
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:22,399
that's that's that's something that the non aggression pack owes

1385
01:30:22,479 --> 01:30:29,000
to also because there's this odd situation where I mean

1386
01:30:29,159 --> 01:30:31,720
once once the vermont actually did deploy and like I said,

1387
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:35,239
we'll get into like Montoma's uh like ground element too,

1388
01:30:35,279 --> 01:30:37,520
which is fascinating. Like the Germans were the Germans were

1389
01:30:37,560 --> 01:30:39,680
fighting in Spain. It wasn't just you know, it was

1390
01:30:39,840 --> 01:30:41,920
just like loof offf of like hot shots, like flying

1391
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:44,720
a handle at sorties, like you know, you had very

1392
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:48,079
much elements like going into ground action against the communists.

1393
01:30:48,199 --> 01:30:53,079
They were killing Russians, okay, and vice versa. Potentially that's explosive,

1394
01:30:53,840 --> 01:30:58,399
you know, but again too like a non aggression pack,

1395
01:30:58,520 --> 01:31:01,279
only only as a context if you're careening towards war anyway,

1396
01:31:01,319 --> 01:31:03,640
I mean like it otherwise it doesn't make sense, but

1397
01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:08,279
it I believe that was Stalin's notion. But it's also

1398
01:31:08,399 --> 01:31:13,560
the the uh, the Soviets for the duration of their existence.

1399
01:31:14,079 --> 01:31:15,720
I mean, people like like to look down in the

1400
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:17,640
Russians and like make fun of them and stuff, and

1401
01:31:17,880 --> 01:31:20,840
I mean whatever, like I I'm not gonna open up

1402
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:23,279
some kind of general general discussion about like the character

1403
01:31:23,359 --> 01:31:27,319
of Russians or whatever, but they the Russians are serious people, man,

1404
01:31:27,359 --> 01:31:30,199
and like they like whatever their shortcomings are, like in

1405
01:31:30,279 --> 01:31:34,039
war and peace, they're really really good at intriguing and

1406
01:31:34,119 --> 01:31:38,479
they're really really good at insinuating their people into them

1407
01:31:39,119 --> 01:31:43,640
into proxy uh elements that serve their interests and kind

1408
01:31:43,640 --> 01:31:46,159
of like fortifying and shaping those interests the way they

1409
01:31:46,239 --> 01:31:50,920
want them to develop. Okay, I mean the examples are Legion. Okay,

1410
01:31:51,079 --> 01:31:53,439
like right until the end they were doing this in

1411
01:31:53,920 --> 01:31:56,720
in you know, in nicaraugu and I'll sell it or

1412
01:31:56,760 --> 01:32:01,000
you know, like they which frankly was incredible because that

1413
01:32:01,159 --> 01:32:04,760
was that that would have been that would have. That

1414
01:32:04,800 --> 01:32:07,439
would have been like the feather in their cap, you know, like, hey,

1415
01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:10,600
we've got you know, we've we've got actual like Marcius

1416
01:32:10,680 --> 01:32:13,760
Lennis client regimes. You know, I got in the American continent.

1417
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:15,800
There's nothing America can do about it, you know, without

1418
01:32:15,880 --> 01:32:18,680
waging some kind of jungle war with you know, half

1419
01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:21,680
of half the country is in the Panama Zone. But

1420
01:32:23,199 --> 01:32:25,319
he hasn't made like That's that's what I believe the

1421
01:32:25,399 --> 01:32:31,760
Soviet notion was. And when when the Reds got the

1422
01:32:31,960 --> 01:32:33,800
first of all in Germany came in like in the

1423
01:32:34,119 --> 01:32:36,279
with when it deployed in depth the way it did,

1424
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:40,119
I don't think Stalin got very worried. I don't think

1425
01:32:40,159 --> 01:32:41,920
he knew that the Germans were capable of that. I

1426
01:32:41,960 --> 01:32:44,239
don't think a lot of people did. And plus it

1427
01:32:44,399 --> 01:32:46,640
was that's when Gering was like at his best. Arguably

1428
01:32:46,720 --> 01:32:49,239
he was an addict then and he but he he

1429
01:32:49,319 --> 01:32:51,680
still had it together like Erard Millers, who I think

1430
01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:54,039
was the best he was. Eron Mellis is one of

1431
01:32:54,119 --> 01:32:57,039
the best field marshals the Germans had. The guy was

1432
01:32:57,279 --> 01:33:00,199
like a literal genius, you know, and he later like

1433
01:33:00,279 --> 01:33:04,720
he's the guy relieved, Uh, the Belaguer Vermacht and Norway

1434
01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:07,199
and like literally saved the day, you know, like he

1435
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:09,319
von Toma was one of the was one of the

1436
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:12,680
was one of the army's best freaking commanders. Like these guys,

1437
01:33:13,039 --> 01:33:16,119
these were like second raiders who were going to fight

1438
01:33:16,239 --> 01:33:19,680
in Spain. And you know, these were these guys like

1439
01:33:19,760 --> 01:33:22,199
the Kareama, like they hear on the Loofaffa, you know,

1440
01:33:22,319 --> 01:33:25,520
like at that point, and they they they they had

1441
01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:27,600
a they very much had a sense of uh. And

1442
01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:29,600
me they're very dung hole guys. You know, they're like, hey,

1443
01:33:29,760 --> 01:33:31,119
we're going to fight the Rets. You know, We're not

1444
01:33:31,159 --> 01:33:33,720
there's in some stupid war rope into against France because

1445
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:35,880
like we're always dealing with the French or something or

1446
01:33:35,920 --> 01:33:37,920
it's not you know, it's not just making me in

1447
01:33:37,960 --> 01:33:40,479
border dispute, like we're fighting the communists, Like this is it,

1448
01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:43,159
you know, like this is this is uh, this is

1449
01:33:43,199 --> 01:33:46,000
our chance to to smash these people, you know, like

1450
01:33:46,119 --> 01:33:48,000
after they've been racking on victories, you know for the

1451
01:33:48,079 --> 01:33:54,199
last last twenty years. You know it, but it's hard

1452
01:33:54,279 --> 01:33:56,319
to say. I mean, Stalin playthings close to the chest.

1453
01:33:56,520 --> 01:34:00,920
I mean what Shalin did say and like We've got

1454
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:04,199
into both in the last episode on the Spanish War.

1455
01:34:04,359 --> 01:34:06,640
But you know, in our UH, in our Second World

1456
01:34:06,680 --> 01:34:11,319
War series throughout the nineteen thirties, Stalin was addressing UH

1457
01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:14,359
like riticulally cadres and general officers in the Red Army.

1458
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:17,520
They're kind of like feeling them out, you know, as

1459
01:34:18,039 --> 01:34:20,800
as a group, you know, to see like really if

1460
01:34:20,800 --> 01:34:23,840
they were like battle ready, you know, in a general

1461
01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:29,359
war against Germany. I mean, Germany's always like Russia's provle opponent,

1462
01:34:29,479 --> 01:34:32,319
but you know what I mean, like in more concrete terms.

1463
01:34:32,840 --> 01:34:35,359
But then it was after about it was about nineteen

1464
01:34:35,399 --> 01:34:38,439
thirty seven, ninety thirty eight that like suddenly Stalin's are

1465
01:34:38,600 --> 01:34:42,119
talking about like, look like you know, our doctrine, our

1466
01:34:42,119 --> 01:34:44,680
our political doction, in our battle doctrine is anonymous, you know,

1467
01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:47,520
like we we we never fight defensively, like we always

1468
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:50,520
fight on foreign soil, unless like you know, we're we're

1469
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:53,600
affecting you know, like a fighting retreat because we're exonstentially threatened,

1470
01:34:54,039 --> 01:34:57,439
you know, like the UH like you know, like the

1471
01:34:57,479 --> 01:35:00,680
Bolshevik cause is inextricably laying you know, to the to

1472
01:35:00,800 --> 01:35:04,039
the Russian national ambitions. You know, we started talking like

1473
01:35:04,079 --> 01:35:07,680
a warlord. You know, he started talking to uh, you know,

1474
01:35:08,039 --> 01:35:10,760
the like he started he started issuing these like proclamations

1475
01:35:10,800 --> 01:35:14,359
from on high, you know, just to the Soviet people,

1476
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:16,640
you know about like we've got you know, we can

1477
01:35:16,680 --> 01:35:19,880
we can withstand any hardship and you know we we

1478
01:35:20,640 --> 01:35:23,079
we can never like lose lose our faith and in

1479
01:35:23,159 --> 01:35:25,239
the Communist cause, Like no matter how grand things are

1480
01:35:25,359 --> 01:35:27,439
for us moving forward. It's like, what was he talking about.

1481
01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:29,479
He's not, he's not He's not talking about like breadlines

1482
01:35:29,479 --> 01:35:31,560
getting longer. He was not talking about it being really

1483
01:35:31,600 --> 01:35:34,479
cold next winner, you know, he's it's obvious what he's

1484
01:35:34,479 --> 01:35:41,880
talking about. And it and Gearing it was thirty seven.

1485
01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:47,359
I think when Gearing as uh you know, he he

1486
01:35:47,399 --> 01:35:50,640
went with like the loof off like military liaison, you know,

1487
01:35:50,720 --> 01:35:53,520
to these, to these to the aircraft factory in the

1488
01:35:53,560 --> 01:35:56,880
you're alls, and like the single aircraft factory had had

1489
01:35:56,920 --> 01:36:00,760
like quadrupled the capacity of like all German aircraft factories combined.

1490
01:36:01,199 --> 01:36:03,079
Like I mean, you don't you don't build something like that,

1491
01:36:03,279 --> 01:36:05,720
like unless you're mobilizing for war, you know, I mean

1492
01:36:05,800 --> 01:36:11,000
it's so I mean taken together it I know, historians

1493
01:36:11,000 --> 01:36:13,680
including bbar. They'll always say, like, well, of course the

1494
01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:17,319
Soviet you know, the Soviets, they tried to cast the war.

1495
01:36:17,399 --> 01:36:20,760
They ry guess warfare generally is like a schoolyard fight, like, oh, well,

1496
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:23,079
you know, the Germans struck first. It's like, I mean,

1497
01:36:23,119 --> 01:36:25,319
it's like saying that, like as like calling somebody who

1498
01:36:25,399 --> 01:36:27,880
moves first and chess the aggressor. Okay, like it doesn't.

1499
01:36:28,840 --> 01:36:32,720
The Soviets. There's no such thing. If you've got if

1500
01:36:32,720 --> 01:36:35,079
you've got five million men out arms, and you know,

1501
01:36:35,159 --> 01:36:38,880
you're building military aircraft by the hundreds, like, there's not

1502
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:41,079
there's not a defensive purpose for those. I mean, the

1503
01:36:41,159 --> 01:36:43,640
deciding between defense and an offensive war doesn't make sense anyway,

1504
01:36:43,720 --> 01:36:47,159
but it all that matters and strategic planning. His capabilities

1505
01:36:47,239 --> 01:36:51,039
and what Salom was doing was he was amassing He

1506
01:36:51,079 --> 01:36:54,079
was amassing the mightiest military force the world has ever seen.

1507
01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:57,359
And then made the point once once the stories developed

1508
01:36:57,359 --> 01:36:59,720
the bomb, even after the devastation of World War two,

1509
01:37:00,159 --> 01:37:02,119
I believe Stalin was the single most powerful man has

1510
01:37:02,119 --> 01:37:06,840
ever lived. Okay, people can't conceptualize that these days, I

1511
01:37:06,920 --> 01:37:13,720
don't think. Okay, but that's what uh, that's what I

1512
01:37:13,840 --> 01:37:16,399
think uh, that's that's what I think we might understand

1513
01:37:16,439 --> 01:37:20,399
it was. But it's also you know, it bears noticing

1514
01:37:20,520 --> 01:37:26,560
too that there was obviously, you know, like during uh

1515
01:37:27,279 --> 01:37:29,279
uh you know, the Munich Soviet and during like the

1516
01:37:29,359 --> 01:37:33,640
Weimar years. I know that, like Trotsky's forces had gotten

1517
01:37:33,680 --> 01:37:36,880
spanked in Poland, and obviously the Soviets were like arming

1518
01:37:37,000 --> 01:37:40,680
those cadres like cause you know, havoc in Germany. But

1519
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:44,039
it's not you know that the n KVD wasn't deploying

1520
01:37:44,079 --> 01:37:46,279
to Munich, you know, like I mean, it wasn't like

1521
01:37:46,399 --> 01:37:49,840
the Soviets were, regardless of the fact that you know again,

1522
01:37:51,560 --> 01:37:55,960
uh so Soviet control is invoked as an alibi by

1523
01:37:55,960 --> 01:38:00,680
apologists for Communist violence in Spain, regardless of that, and

1524
01:38:00,840 --> 01:38:04,600
regardless of degree of culpability and relative or absolute terms

1525
01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:08,840
between the Red Spaniards in between the Soviet cadres, the

1526
01:38:08,960 --> 01:38:13,319
Soviet Union had an actual NKVD branch there, you know,

1527
01:38:13,399 --> 01:38:17,199
they had it beyond like nominal like political representation, just

1528
01:38:17,279 --> 01:38:19,840
to be like relaying to Moscow. The battlefield situation was,

1529
01:38:19,920 --> 01:38:23,119
you know, like this this was not normal for the

1530
01:38:23,199 --> 01:38:24,920
Soviet Union. And I realized the Soviet news and the

1531
01:38:24,960 --> 01:38:29,279
abnormal state. But in terms of its power, projection, tendencies

1532
01:38:29,319 --> 01:38:32,359
and strategy, it this was an outlier in terms of

1533
01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:35,520
how it usually behaved. So you know, again and I

1534
01:38:36,359 --> 01:38:39,840
I think like a lawyer in terms of the evidence

1535
01:38:39,880 --> 01:38:44,840
I favor, and in terms of the way I calculate intention,

1536
01:38:45,039 --> 01:38:49,520
particularly in war and peace terms. But motive means and

1537
01:38:49,760 --> 01:38:53,600
motive means an opportunity. It tends to be how you

1538
01:38:54,239 --> 01:39:01,159
convinced the try refect of scientier. The court room is

1539
01:39:01,239 --> 01:39:05,720
not uh bound by formal logic or anything. But we're

1540
01:39:05,720 --> 01:39:08,399
talking about human affairs. There is something to that, you know,

1541
01:39:08,439 --> 01:39:11,800
whether you're talking about individual men or at scale. And

1542
01:39:11,960 --> 01:39:15,720
again I I I don't think this can be denied.

1543
01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:19,560
And even even where their conspiguous absence of some of this,

1544
01:39:21,520 --> 01:39:25,560
some of this data of an entry data. Again, the

1545
01:39:25,920 --> 01:39:29,119
Soviets couldn't afford to not fight in Spain did over

1546
01:39:29,279 --> 01:39:31,920
the Third Reich. But even more so for the Soviets,

1547
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:39,079
the uh UH did sit out World War One, and

1548
01:39:39,239 --> 01:39:45,279
that interestingly, that that that contributed in oblique ways to

1549
01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:50,359
the political situation in the thirties. Spain was a weird state. Man. Look.

1550
01:39:50,399 --> 01:39:52,760
On the one hand, I mean, Spain had an African empire,

1551
01:39:53,279 --> 01:39:55,560
you know, they had they couldn't be said that Spain

1552
01:39:55,840 --> 01:39:59,800
wasn't like a place of high culture. But they became

1553
01:39:59,880 --> 01:40:02,039
the you know and again like they literally were like

1554
01:40:02,079 --> 01:40:04,880
the first truly like national state in Europe despite their

1555
01:40:05,640 --> 01:40:14,039
kind of inextricable relationship to the Roman Church in political terms,

1556
01:40:14,840 --> 01:40:17,359
but they were something they weren't ur something of an

1557
01:40:17,399 --> 01:40:20,119
inward looking people. You know, they weren't practicing a global

1558
01:40:20,199 --> 01:40:22,960
politique or even really a European power politique. You know,

1559
01:40:23,159 --> 01:40:28,680
like they there became an an unprecedented demand for Spanish

1560
01:40:28,760 --> 01:40:30,840
goods during World War One because they were a neutral,

1561
01:40:31,239 --> 01:40:33,680
but the influx of capital like caused all kinds of

1562
01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:36,560
problems with they're already you know, kind of troubled currencies.

1563
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:44,119
It swelled the cities, which I mean as the cities

1564
01:40:44,199 --> 01:40:48,359
were were were you know, they were the repository of

1565
01:40:48,439 --> 01:40:50,640
red sympathy. But it's not as clear cut as people think, man.

1566
01:40:50,680 --> 01:40:53,800
I mean, there was national districts in Madrid and in Barcelona,

1567
01:40:53,880 --> 01:40:56,479
and uh there was also I mean there were there

1568
01:40:56,560 --> 01:41:00,159
was a there were there's people, there's guys, there's had

1569
01:41:00,159 --> 01:41:02,239
a lot of secessionists. We're just like catching their wag

1570
01:41:02,319 --> 01:41:04,640
into the Communists because like they thought that hey, if

1571
01:41:04,640 --> 01:41:06,880
we fight and like issue this is our demand, you know,

1572
01:41:06,960 --> 01:41:08,760
to like the cadres, they'll have to give it to us.

1573
01:41:08,800 --> 01:41:10,840
I mean it was it was kind of a collogated

1574
01:41:10,880 --> 01:41:14,239
bestiche But another thing, guys like Beeborne was understand. It

1575
01:41:14,319 --> 01:41:17,199
makes the point that he's like, well, you know, why,

1576
01:41:17,279 --> 01:41:20,359
why why why Spain gets still behind the Galic Church

1577
01:41:20,479 --> 01:41:23,319
and gets so outraged it the massc of of clergy

1578
01:41:23,600 --> 01:41:25,840
only twenty percent of people went to church. It's like

1579
01:41:25,880 --> 01:41:28,119
you can't you can't adjudicate like the kind of the

1580
01:41:28,159 --> 01:41:33,159
conceptual spirit for like a better word of a country

1581
01:41:33,439 --> 01:41:35,760
and a culture, like by how many people are like

1582
01:41:35,840 --> 01:41:39,640
sitting in pews on Sunday. Like even the way the

1583
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:42,439
Communists framed their propaganda was like Catholic. It was like

1584
01:41:42,479 --> 01:41:44,079
a perverted iteration of it.

1585
01:41:44,720 --> 01:41:48,560
Speaker 1: But I mean, the the Inquisition didn't end until eighteen fourteen,

1586
01:41:48,640 --> 01:41:54,399
eighteen fifteen, and the Catholic Church was basically the courts

1587
01:41:55,159 --> 01:41:59,840
up until then. You know they weren't they weren't the executioners.

1588
01:42:00,319 --> 01:42:03,680
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, and it's also even a guy like

1589
01:42:04,119 --> 01:42:05,800
even in a guy the only time he'd been in

1590
01:42:05,920 --> 01:42:08,520
church was like when he was baptized and like his

1591
01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:11,600
mom's funeral. Like that guy would like view the world

1592
01:42:11,720 --> 01:42:13,880
in like Catholic terms, and he'd look at the church

1593
01:42:13,960 --> 01:42:17,119
as like, you know, kind of the the instantation of

1594
01:42:17,279 --> 01:42:20,359
like you know, God's authority on earth. You know, like

1595
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:24,199
it's not that there's I don't know Bimbo's back. I

1596
01:42:24,319 --> 01:42:25,760
bet that like a lot of Tories is like a

1597
01:42:25,840 --> 01:42:29,960
Church of England type and he he doesn't really understand

1598
01:42:30,239 --> 01:42:33,840
like could like faith as like a conceptual spit of orientation.

1599
01:42:34,319 --> 01:42:36,520
He probably use Americans as like a bunch of rednecks

1600
01:42:36,600 --> 01:42:38,279
like me who like read the Bible all day and

1601
01:42:38,399 --> 01:42:41,039
or idiots, and he use Catholics as like well they

1602
01:42:41,199 --> 01:42:42,960
some of them don't even go to church, like not

1603
01:42:43,119 --> 01:42:45,800
not even not understanding that. It's like it's something that's

1604
01:42:45,840 --> 01:42:49,720
like interstitially bound up with like your entire sense of culture,

1605
01:42:49,840 --> 01:42:51,479
like you know, I mean, you understand this, but it's

1606
01:42:52,239 --> 01:42:55,840
it didn't matter that, uh, it didn't it didn't matter

1607
01:42:55,960 --> 01:42:58,840
that like most that that that most people weren't going

1608
01:42:58,880 --> 01:43:01,560
to church. I mean it's but it's also too I

1609
01:43:01,600 --> 01:43:05,640
mean even if I mean, even if you know the

1610
01:43:05,720 --> 01:43:09,840
action France, say, uh during their zenith, you know, they

1611
01:43:09,920 --> 01:43:12,159
kind of they got they got kind of edged out

1612
01:43:12,199 --> 01:43:20,840
by like later like fascist and nationalists, uh militias in France.

1613
01:43:20,960 --> 01:43:23,039
But you know, they they always made the point that

1614
01:43:23,239 --> 01:43:25,960
like we're we're like a secular movement, but that doesn't

1615
01:43:26,000 --> 01:43:28,399
mean you can attack the Mother Church, you know. I

1616
01:43:28,520 --> 01:43:30,720
mean they they were willing to go to war to

1617
01:43:30,840 --> 01:43:35,439
like protect uh you know, the Roman Church as uh

1618
01:43:35,840 --> 01:43:38,399
as like the state religion of of of like what

1619
01:43:38,520 --> 01:43:41,119
they viewed as like you know, the the ideal like

1620
01:43:41,199 --> 01:43:45,279
French Republic moving forward. You know, like I'm sure I said,

1621
01:43:45,359 --> 01:43:47,520
like Italy where a lot of people did go to church,

1622
01:43:47,640 --> 01:43:50,520
but it'll like the Kingdom of Italy under Duce was

1623
01:43:50,560 --> 01:43:53,479
basically a secular society. You know, it didn't matter that

1624
01:43:53,640 --> 01:43:55,479
like you know, half of Italians were like in church

1625
01:43:55,520 --> 01:43:58,439
every Sunday, you know, I mean, it's it was totally different.

1626
01:43:58,520 --> 01:44:01,159
And it's you know, like I said, it's it's something

1627
01:44:01,239 --> 01:44:05,000
of a it's something of a blind spot. It said,

1628
01:44:05,079 --> 01:44:08,159
somewhat political when like deliberate and ideological, but it's something

1629
01:44:08,239 --> 01:44:10,239
it's part of it too. It's like a cultural blind spot.

1630
01:44:11,079 --> 01:44:13,439
And this thing like too like it. You know, it's

1631
01:44:13,479 --> 01:44:16,840
been redacted from this druga record that there's a huge

1632
01:44:16,960 --> 01:44:20,960
outpouring of support for the nationalists cause in Ireland, and

1633
01:44:21,239 --> 01:44:25,199
uh the regime there of val Era, like he had

1634
01:44:25,199 --> 01:44:29,399
a problem, he had to finesh public opinion when I

1635
01:44:29,479 --> 01:44:32,520
mean Ireland, just like the cleared outright neutrality on the

1636
01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:39,640
on the question m a lot of even a lot

1637
01:44:39,680 --> 01:44:42,840
of voters, you know, uh in the Republic who are

1638
01:44:42,880 --> 01:44:45,079
basically like liberals, like why aren't you going to defend

1639
01:44:45,119 --> 01:44:46,720
the church? What's the matter with you? You know? And

1640
01:44:46,840 --> 01:44:48,680
uh in the blue shirts, you know, a Duffy's Blue

1641
01:44:48,680 --> 01:44:50,760
shirts mean two or three thousand men signed up to

1642
01:44:50,840 --> 01:44:53,039
go fight on the nationalist side, like all irishmen. I mean,

1643
01:44:53,079 --> 01:44:55,920
iron's a tire. Ireland is a tiny country. That's significance,

1644
01:44:56,479 --> 01:44:58,600
you know. And in America, Catholic media they give it

1645
01:44:58,680 --> 01:45:02,119
up signatures of school kids, you know, like they they

1646
01:45:02,399 --> 01:45:04,279
got something like a million and a half signatures like

1647
01:45:04,399 --> 01:45:07,239
kids like progo school kids, you know, saying that mister Roosevelt,

1648
01:45:07,239 --> 01:45:09,399
while let it, while we we love our sisters and

1649
01:45:09,640 --> 01:45:11,640
and and and prius, why why are letting them be

1650
01:45:11,760 --> 01:45:14,760
murdered by communists? You know, I mean like that and

1651
01:45:14,960 --> 01:45:16,800
and obviously like New Geork types like I was just

1652
01:45:16,960 --> 01:45:19,159
you know that that that's you know that that's that

1653
01:45:19,279 --> 01:45:22,119
that's exploitative, and that's that's just you know, propaganda by

1654
01:45:23,720 --> 01:45:26,880
by by atrocity story. But I mean it's like what

1655
01:45:26,960 --> 01:45:28,960
he's saying that this wasn't happening. I mean, you know,

1656
01:45:29,079 --> 01:45:31,479
the the Gallic Church isn't have its own army. Stalin's

1657
01:45:31,520 --> 01:45:35,159
famously said that, Okay, I mean like if you uh,

1658
01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:39,720
the church militant, it has to defend it, you know,

1659
01:45:39,800 --> 01:45:41,960
I mean, and that's it, you know, as well as

1660
01:45:42,039 --> 01:45:44,560
like as other as well as other you know, as

1661
01:45:44,560 --> 01:45:47,439
well as other patriotic elements and and Orthodox guys and

1662
01:45:48,279 --> 01:45:53,479
and you know in German prads who you know, realized

1663
01:45:53,479 --> 01:45:55,920
what the stakes were. But it's also during the Great

1664
01:45:56,119 --> 01:46:02,880
during World War One, there there became h there became

1665
01:46:03,000 --> 01:46:06,279
like a deep uh. That's when the divisions originally uh

1666
01:46:06,960 --> 01:46:09,920
kind of became like insurmountable. Like it wasn't until the

1667
01:46:09,960 --> 01:46:12,720
nineteen thirty five It wasn't until like the night like

1668
01:46:12,800 --> 01:46:15,439
even the nine thirty sixth election, you actually had candidates

1669
01:46:15,560 --> 01:46:18,520
for parliament saying, you know, like we will not accept

1670
01:46:18,600 --> 01:46:21,720
you know, like uh, a nationalist victory at the polls, like,

1671
01:46:21,760 --> 01:46:24,640
well we will go to war and vice versa. But

1672
01:46:24,800 --> 01:46:32,520
it's the uh people uh military officers, UH, farmers, you know,

1673
01:46:32,680 --> 01:46:36,560
people uh like clergy, people like laymen, we're activing the church.

1674
01:46:36,880 --> 01:46:40,680
They tended to side with uh the kaiser Reich, you know,

1675
01:46:40,840 --> 01:46:43,399
and uh and and these kind of and these guys

1676
01:46:43,479 --> 01:46:47,039
like urbanite uh Franco file types like tend to decide

1677
01:46:47,119 --> 01:46:51,239
with uh, you know, with with with London, Paris. It's

1678
01:46:51,279 --> 01:46:54,119
just interesting. It's uh. I mean, I I was making

1679
01:46:54,199 --> 01:46:55,840
the point that like the war in Syria. One of

1680
01:46:55,880 --> 01:46:57,920
the reasons, I mean, ASD's a hero anyway, I mean,

1681
01:46:57,960 --> 01:46:59,880
he's just like a great man. But it was impair

1682
01:47:00,000 --> 01:47:02,880
different people on the right, you know, to back Syria

1683
01:47:02,920 --> 01:47:07,399
anyway they could, you know, in theater, uh and as

1684
01:47:07,439 --> 01:47:08,800
well as you know, people in a position to like

1685
01:47:08,880 --> 01:47:12,760
send money to to uh you know, the the Syrians

1686
01:47:12,800 --> 01:47:16,680
defending themselves in their gene from terrorism. You know, because

1687
01:47:16,720 --> 01:47:19,399
that that that that that that was that was not

1688
01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:22,399
to the same degree and not to the same not

1689
01:47:23,079 --> 01:47:25,159
it's not impactful in the way the Spanish War was.

1690
01:47:25,279 --> 01:47:27,640
But that's you better believe that was a was a

1691
01:47:27,720 --> 01:47:31,479
war of zechdeist in ideology and thank god you, thank

1692
01:47:31,520 --> 01:47:36,600
god you a sad defeated Islamic terrorism. You know that's

1693
01:47:37,560 --> 01:47:40,319
brought to his brought to his own soil by by

1694
01:47:40,359 --> 01:47:43,119
America and Israel. I mean that's always the case. I mean,

1695
01:47:43,159 --> 01:47:45,880
the you can tell, you can tell it was on

1696
01:47:45,960 --> 01:47:47,880
the right, the wrong side of things, by the by

1697
01:47:47,920 --> 01:47:50,039
the Ukraine War. I mean, that's like more that that.

1698
01:47:50,159 --> 01:47:53,520
That's ridiculous example because it's literally just like this, it's

1699
01:47:53,560 --> 01:47:56,680
literally just kind of like a human trafficking like Zionis mafia,

1700
01:47:56,920 --> 01:48:01,600
like propped up by you know, these like degenerates in Washington,

1701
01:48:01,760 --> 01:48:04,359
you know, and they're they're just like there's like provoking

1702
01:48:04,399 --> 01:48:07,000
a conflict against like all strategic reason. But the point is,

1703
01:48:07,159 --> 01:48:10,119
like anybody, you know, you better believed that's an ideological

1704
01:48:10,239 --> 01:48:12,600
war and that you know, that's that that's like the

1705
01:48:12,720 --> 01:48:17,560
designated battleground for you know, the uh between uh the

1706
01:48:17,640 --> 01:48:20,479
opposing camps that constitute you know, both sides of the

1707
01:48:20,600 --> 01:48:24,960
of the Zeitgeiser present. I would have been far afield

1708
01:48:24,960 --> 01:48:28,880
today on and what I wanted to talk about. I

1709
01:48:28,960 --> 01:48:30,119
hope that was okay with people.

1710
01:48:31,199 --> 01:48:34,079
Speaker 1: I got, I got I got you off track with

1711
01:48:34,159 --> 01:48:38,159
the with the question about the goal that no.

1712
01:48:38,239 --> 01:48:42,119
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, that's an import that's that's a

1713
01:48:42,199 --> 01:48:45,359
fascinating Uh. That's like something like Frederick Firsight there, like

1714
01:48:45,399 --> 01:48:47,520
John Lecurrey would have written about it. Took a fascinating

1715
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:54,840
little little side note. What I want to get into, Uh,

1716
01:48:55,239 --> 01:48:57,279
I'd like to get a little bit deeper and like theory.

1717
01:48:57,359 --> 01:48:58,920
I mean, I know it's like my wheelhouse and I

1718
01:48:58,960 --> 01:49:00,840
don't subject people to it. I think it's boring. But

1719
01:49:01,359 --> 01:49:02,680
I want to get a little bit into like the

1720
01:49:02,760 --> 01:49:06,279
maesterra next time, and like how like the counter Reformation

1721
01:49:06,640 --> 01:49:11,680
like impacted political thought, which ultimately made the kind of

1722
01:49:12,479 --> 01:49:18,039
like the Nationals Coalition possible. But we'll get into like

1723
01:49:18,119 --> 01:49:20,760
the actual onset of hostilities like in the next episode,

1724
01:49:20,960 --> 01:49:24,279
and we'll we'll we'll devote there's a little background time

1725
01:49:25,000 --> 01:49:26,600
to what I just referenced, but then kind of get

1726
01:49:26,600 --> 01:49:30,479
into like the military situation and how it developed. If

1727
01:49:30,560 --> 01:49:31,880
that's okay by you, it's your.

1728
01:49:31,800 --> 01:49:35,560
Speaker 1: Show, that sounds great to me. Yeah, the Maestro I'm

1729
01:49:35,600 --> 01:49:38,960
getting ready to actually go over some of his writings

1730
01:49:40,199 --> 01:49:41,880
on the Inquisition on my show.

1731
01:49:42,119 --> 01:49:46,479
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's what I was thinking about like specifically,

1732
01:49:46,600 --> 01:49:50,199
but it's I mean he is he's a very like

1733
01:49:50,319 --> 01:49:54,439
heterodox like Catholic thinker in some way, but in terms

1734
01:49:54,479 --> 01:50:01,640
of how Catholicism like in foreign politics, especially you know

1735
01:50:01,760 --> 01:50:07,520
in them in from from really you know, like eighteen twelve,

1736
01:50:07,600 --> 01:50:11,039
eighting thirteen, like onward like it. That can't really be overstated.

1737
01:50:11,119 --> 01:50:12,960
I mean you know that because you're a learned guy.

1738
01:50:13,119 --> 01:50:15,720
But this was great, man, And again, I really really

1739
01:50:15,800 --> 01:50:18,399
appreciate you giving me the platform.

1740
01:50:18,399 --> 01:50:20,640
Speaker 1: All right to what we do every time. Get plugs.

1741
01:50:21,720 --> 01:50:24,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I'm still on I'm still on Twitter.

1742
01:50:24,840 --> 01:50:27,359
Who knows for how long I shut down my telegram

1743
01:50:27,479 --> 01:50:29,920
channel find beings and just becoming like a huge hassle.

1744
01:50:30,319 --> 01:50:35,640
I know, everybody upset. I will launch another one, but

1745
01:50:36,079 --> 01:50:37,720
I got to get things in order for some of

1746
01:50:37,760 --> 01:50:41,319
my other projects. I've got to catch up on these

1747
01:50:41,439 --> 01:50:44,279
long form manuscripts that I had a neglect because I've

1748
01:50:44,279 --> 01:50:46,359
been you know, I mean, I've been busy with them stuff.

1749
01:50:46,520 --> 01:50:51,359
It wasn't just as neglecting things, but the I am

1750
01:50:51,439 --> 01:50:57,000
in fact shooting channel footage. It's an involved process. Actual

1751
01:50:57,159 --> 01:51:00,239
like long episodes are probably only gonna come out want

1752
01:51:00,359 --> 01:51:03,399
like bi monthly, but I'm going to start shooting like

1753
01:51:03,520 --> 01:51:07,800
two and three minute videos like and will drop those weekly. Okay,

1754
01:51:07,960 --> 01:51:10,119
but there's a lot that goes into it. I'm not

1755
01:51:10,159 --> 01:51:11,840
saying that play martyr. I'm saying that to people. Don't

1756
01:51:11,840 --> 01:51:18,000
think I'm being like slack. And uh. Season two of

1757
01:51:18,079 --> 01:51:23,960
Mind Phaser, I I'm recording the next episode with my

1758
01:51:24,039 --> 01:51:27,960
dear friend Giles tomorrow night. That's going to be the

1759
01:51:28,079 --> 01:51:31,159
last episode of season one and season two with the

1760
01:51:31,239 --> 01:51:35,079
pod is going to change substantially, but I believe everybody

1761
01:51:35,159 --> 01:51:37,680
will approve of the ways in which it's changing. Like

1762
01:51:37,760 --> 01:51:39,960
we're not We're We're gonna stick to the same as

1763
01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:42,199
of topics. So there's other things I want to emphasize

1764
01:51:43,920 --> 01:51:46,399
and you'll see, okay, and I'll give it a write

1765
01:51:46,479 --> 01:51:50,840
up on my substick so to kind of hit people

1766
01:51:50,920 --> 01:51:56,119
to what I'm thinking. But yeah, and you can find

1767
01:51:56,159 --> 01:51:59,039
me on substick at real Thomas seven seven seven dot

1768
01:51:59,119 --> 01:52:03,079
substick dot. And that's all I got for.

1769
01:52:03,199 --> 01:52:06,680
Speaker 1: Now, Thomas, until the next time, Thank you so much.

1770
01:52:07,479 --> 01:52:07,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man.

1771
01:52:08,039 --> 01:52:14,479
Speaker 1: Likewise, I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekana Show.

1772
01:52:16,239 --> 01:52:19,159
I'm here with Tom seven seven seven again. Part three

1773
01:52:19,720 --> 01:52:20,600
Spanish Civil war.

1774
01:52:20,840 --> 01:52:24,840
Speaker 2: How are you doing very well man, Thanks again for

1775
01:52:25,920 --> 01:52:32,520
making this happen. I've been thinking a lot about the

1776
01:52:32,600 --> 01:52:36,479
revolution and military affairs and what people trace its origins too.

1777
01:52:37,640 --> 01:52:41,520
That's not just a discrete question of interest to military

1778
01:52:41,560 --> 01:52:47,000
science types or you know, like war college types who

1779
01:52:48,000 --> 01:52:50,039
you know, study this kind of thing for its own sake,

1780
01:52:50,199 --> 01:52:54,760
not just to understand the things for the sake of posterity,

1781
01:52:54,880 --> 01:53:01,439
but also you know, game future conflicts. But it relates

1782
01:53:01,720 --> 01:53:11,239
in peculiar ways to the conditions that you know, the

1783
01:53:12,119 --> 01:53:15,840
decisions of an almost purely political nature, like the true

1784
01:53:16,119 --> 01:53:21,079
the true revolution in military affairs was something that occurred

1785
01:53:21,119 --> 01:53:23,760
on the command to control side, owing to the owing

1786
01:53:23,800 --> 01:53:26,479
to the information age and the advent of it, I believe,

1787
01:53:27,119 --> 01:53:34,159
But its origins lie in blitzkrieg or what some people

1788
01:53:34,279 --> 01:53:41,560
commonly understand is blitzkrieg, and how that doctrine came to develop.

1789
01:53:43,079 --> 01:53:47,640
The best explanation of what the controversy is, there's Basil

1790
01:53:47,720 --> 01:53:54,239
Liddell Hearts, who I think is something of a problematic historian,

1791
01:53:55,520 --> 01:53:59,159
but he does flesh out what the kind of the

1792
01:53:59,279 --> 01:54:06,840
key variables are in in you know, material to the

1793
01:54:07,199 --> 01:54:13,399
the question. John Mehersheimer I find him more accessible. Miershimmer

1794
01:54:13,439 --> 01:54:16,680
is highly theoretical, but he's less deliberately esoteric than somebody

1795
01:54:16,800 --> 01:54:22,199
like Heart, and he presents these things, uh ironically because

1796
01:54:22,199 --> 01:54:25,800
I think when of Meershamer's blind spots is other political

1797
01:54:25,840 --> 01:54:28,920
conditions which underlie warfare at all times and what what

1798
01:54:29,039 --> 01:54:31,239
the interplay is. I mean, he's pretty much a closet

1799
01:54:31,279 --> 01:54:33,680
whit cy. And he's also very much, you know, a

1800
01:54:33,800 --> 01:54:37,520
quantitative thinker. I mean I got all like tremendous respect

1801
01:54:37,600 --> 01:54:44,039
for him, but that part ways with him in basic

1802
01:54:44,199 --> 01:54:48,239
terms in his understanding of the interplay of political and

1803
01:54:48,279 --> 01:54:52,239
military affairs. But his book Conventional Deterrence, Okay, it made

1804
01:54:52,640 --> 01:54:56,279
it was It was highly impactful during the late Cold War.

1805
01:54:58,439 --> 01:55:02,079
I people always asking for sources and things, all right,

1806
01:55:03,439 --> 01:55:07,199
the Journal of the Atomic Scientists. You can find most

1807
01:55:07,279 --> 01:55:09,600
of that the archives for free if you dig deep,

1808
01:55:09,680 --> 01:55:14,199
okay online. Now it's become kind of this like like

1809
01:55:14,960 --> 01:55:21,279
you know, pointless kind of peacenik environmentalists kind of journal

1810
01:55:21,800 --> 01:55:27,960
that no one takes seriously. But it had real relevance, uh,

1811
01:55:28,399 --> 01:55:30,560
you know, from the eyes of our era until you know,

1812
01:55:30,680 --> 01:55:35,760
November nineth, nineteen eighty nine, frankly and the final phase

1813
01:55:35,760 --> 01:55:39,079
of the Cold War, it started running a lot of

1814
01:55:39,760 --> 01:55:45,359
informed pieces by people like Meerscheimer about the reemergence of

1815
01:55:46,039 --> 01:55:52,000
of of conventional forces as you know, a key variable,

1816
01:55:52,600 --> 01:55:56,600
you know, owing not just to to to emergent deeper parodies,

1817
01:55:56,680 --> 01:56:00,560
but you know, it's just like a more you know,

1818
01:56:00,680 --> 01:56:05,159
the the the information and revolution. It led to just

1819
01:56:05,239 --> 01:56:08,760
more complete understanding of you know, the interplay of of

1820
01:56:08,920 --> 01:56:12,520
of conventional and nuclear forces in in a few in

1821
01:56:12,560 --> 01:56:17,199
a then future conflict with you know, then extant platforms.

1822
01:56:18,880 --> 01:56:23,279
But this piece that i'm site, I'm referencing in journally

1823
01:56:23,279 --> 01:56:27,399
a time of scientists. It's basically condensed version of uh

1824
01:56:28,159 --> 01:56:31,920
Meer Sermer's book Conventional Deterrence, which was published in nineteen

1825
01:56:31,960 --> 01:56:37,239
eighty two, eighty two or eighty three. And obviously he

1826
01:56:39,359 --> 01:56:43,279
the article it talks to from from you know, then

1827
01:56:43,359 --> 01:56:45,520
current like from the headline's issues relating to the able

1828
01:56:45,600 --> 01:56:48,479
Archer era and stuff and and the person to deployment

1829
01:56:48,600 --> 01:56:55,600
and the uh the the Minuteman system and things. But

1830
01:56:56,279 --> 01:56:59,960
the book Conventional Deterrence remains relevant because it's about the

1831
01:57:00,159 --> 01:57:05,600
best statement of the controversy. The historians debate on the

1832
01:57:05,680 --> 01:57:08,119
question of Blitzkrieg. Like basically it boils down to this,

1833
01:57:08,359 --> 01:57:14,279
you know, was Blitzkrieg this revolutionary doctrine that was conceptualized

1834
01:57:14,319 --> 01:57:20,439
in purely theoretical terms before the Battle of France, specifically

1835
01:57:23,399 --> 01:57:30,319
you know whereby uh whereby people like Heinz Guderian and

1836
01:57:30,520 --> 01:57:36,000
uh people like uh Werner Gunn Fritz were uh you know,

1837
01:57:36,159 --> 01:57:43,520
understood that masked armor was gonna supplant conventional infantry you

1838
01:57:43,560 --> 01:57:47,319
know as the as the the spare punks of uh

1839
01:57:48,159 --> 01:57:53,239
of of of ground assault operations or was Blitzkrieg this

1840
01:57:53,399 --> 01:57:59,920
kind of uh, you know technique that developed owing to

1841
01:58:00,000 --> 01:58:04,000
the unique exigencies of the modern battlefield conditions and you know,

1842
01:58:04,199 --> 01:58:09,079
as uh as as as as the French collapse and

1843
01:58:09,159 --> 01:58:13,760
as the mainline resistance you know, kind of rapidly just

1844
01:58:14,279 --> 01:58:22,520
evaporated at points where massed armor was employed. The great effect,

1845
01:58:22,640 --> 01:58:26,560
you know was was that just basically like you know,

1846
01:58:26,920 --> 01:58:31,640
German battlefield commanders who who were strongly oriented towards what's

1847
01:58:31,640 --> 01:58:35,079
called missionaryed tactics anyway, and had an inherent you know,

1848
01:58:35,159 --> 01:58:38,239
kind of tendency towards experimentation and flexibility. You know, they

1849
01:58:38,560 --> 01:58:41,680
they just adopted these things like in theater, and then

1850
01:58:42,239 --> 01:58:47,640
you know, very organically, ay, a combined arms doctrine developed,

1851
01:58:47,920 --> 01:58:52,000
you know, like owing to trial and error under the

1852
01:58:52,560 --> 01:58:57,359
critical conditions of combat or you know, was was it

1853
01:58:57,479 --> 01:59:04,399
again like just a just a a theoretical coup, you know,

1854
01:59:04,560 --> 01:59:08,880
owing to them kind of the latent brilliant of the

1855
01:59:09,359 --> 01:59:12,239
German general staff, and of course people favor of the latter.

1856
01:59:12,960 --> 01:59:15,479
That's really I mean that that sounds on it's face

1857
01:59:15,600 --> 01:59:18,039
it might be particularly credible in like general terms, but

1858
01:59:18,159 --> 01:59:21,439
the you know, the the Germans, the Prussian Army, and

1859
01:59:21,520 --> 01:59:24,319
especially if you the Wehrmacht as the direct legacy of

1860
01:59:24,319 --> 01:59:26,199
the Prussian Army, which I do and I'm not gonna

1861
01:59:26,199 --> 01:59:31,479
be disputed. They invented the staff structure, okay, the United States,

1862
01:59:31,560 --> 01:59:37,560
the UK, France, Japan, everybody imitated the Prussian staff structure,

1863
01:59:37,640 --> 01:59:39,359
where you know, you have a permanent general staff that

1864
01:59:39,439 --> 01:59:43,920
constantly studies in games warfare. And they also pioneered war

1865
01:59:44,039 --> 01:59:46,520
gaming as we know it, okay, you know, like the

1866
01:59:46,600 --> 01:59:55,640
screet scenario building with coded variables too, you know, tailor

1867
01:59:55,960 --> 02:00:02,720
to mimic likely battlefield conditions and things. So in the

1868
02:00:02,800 --> 02:00:06,800
German case, it's a more credible postulate than it would

1869
02:00:06,840 --> 02:00:12,560
be you know, as applied to other as applied to

1870
02:00:12,600 --> 02:00:18,239
other military cultures in a speculative capacity. If you accept

1871
02:00:18,439 --> 02:00:22,199
uh that blitz krieg was a discreet doctrine that emerged,

1872
02:00:23,079 --> 02:00:30,079
you know, from theoretical quarters of the Vermont, you also

1873
02:00:30,199 --> 02:00:34,640
basically like like a concominant like claim they're in is

1874
02:00:34,680 --> 02:00:38,960
that well like Hitler sabotaged this by micromanagement or Hitler

1875
02:00:39,039 --> 02:00:44,159
was basically like, you know, a siege oriented commander. You know,

1876
02:00:44,319 --> 02:00:52,279
he was uh, basically cautious in critical capacities, you know,

1877
02:00:53,920 --> 02:00:56,720
And uh, I basically agree with that, but not for

1878
02:00:56,800 --> 02:00:59,520
the reasons most people do. If you learn the way

1879
02:00:59,560 --> 02:01:05,119
Hitler behaved in in in a warlord role, he wasn't

1880
02:01:05,159 --> 02:01:08,119
this crazy, reckless gambler like a lot of core historians

1881
02:01:08,239 --> 02:01:11,279
or Hollywood like make it out, you know, quite the contrary.

1882
02:01:12,000 --> 02:01:15,359
He was basically like a conservative German like siege commander,

1883
02:01:15,640 --> 02:01:20,239
you know, and when objectives were reached, you know, he

1884
02:01:21,359 --> 02:01:25,640
he was obsessed with protecting flanks and you know, constituting

1885
02:01:25,720 --> 02:01:28,640
forces such that they could defend in depth, you know,

1886
02:01:29,319 --> 02:01:34,920
if necessary. But in any event, one of the reasons

1887
02:01:34,960 --> 02:01:37,479
why I think that the whole controversy is kind of

1888
02:01:37,520 --> 02:01:43,600
a fool's errand it's because German armored doctrine, it's testing

1889
02:01:43,640 --> 02:01:47,720
ground was the Spanish Civil War. Okay, and von Toma,

1890
02:01:48,960 --> 02:01:54,399
who uh, as we'll get into. He's an underappreciated German commander,

1891
02:01:57,079 --> 02:02:01,239
more so than some of the other general officers which revisionists, uh,

1892
02:02:01,840 --> 02:02:06,039
you know have kind of discovered weren't higher praise than

1893
02:02:06,079 --> 02:02:08,199
they were afforded other for political reason and just because

1894
02:02:08,199 --> 02:02:09,960
they were like overlooked and favor of these more kind

1895
02:02:09,960 --> 02:02:12,800
of dashing characters like Rommel or like Darian, or like

1896
02:02:12,880 --> 02:02:20,039
one manch thing i'd put uh, I put v Toma.

1897
02:02:21,119 --> 02:02:25,039
I consider him the same class as uh Rick Toffin,

1898
02:02:25,479 --> 02:02:30,640
as Ferdinand Schorner with the last German field marshall ever.

1899
02:02:33,239 --> 02:02:36,520
But he uh, he was a tactical genius, I believe.

1900
02:02:36,560 --> 02:02:39,680
And that's the other reason I liked that book by

1901
02:02:39,760 --> 02:02:43,000
Hoffman Stalin's Worg Extermination. It's not just because it's a

1902
02:02:43,159 --> 02:02:45,800
it's great scholarship, but he makes that point in some

1903
02:02:45,880 --> 02:02:49,359
of his other stuff too, that Ferdinand Schorners it was

1904
02:02:49,439 --> 02:02:55,119
a great battlefield commander. But in any event, armor was

1905
02:02:55,199 --> 02:03:01,800
dispositive in the Spanish Civil War and the nationalists you know,

1906
02:03:01,880 --> 02:03:04,520
the Franco's forces. I mean, if you want to think

1907
02:03:04,520 --> 02:03:13,119
of them as nationalists fascists, you know, the talked about

1908
02:03:13,279 --> 02:03:17,600
the constellation of of of just fascist who had general

1909
02:03:17,640 --> 02:03:21,840
sympathy for you know, the for the church and and

1910
02:03:22,000 --> 02:03:25,840
for the you know, and for the for the traditional

1911
02:03:26,039 --> 02:03:31,319
regime political and social. But they like however you want

1912
02:03:31,359 --> 02:03:34,279
to describe on it was. It was this kind of

1913
02:03:34,319 --> 02:03:39,800
confederation of of of of different forces but sometimes competing

1914
02:03:39,880 --> 02:03:43,640
loyalties and uh, you know, like we talked about before,

1915
02:03:44,760 --> 02:03:47,199
before the loof off came to their aid, you know,

1916
02:03:47,319 --> 02:03:51,119
not just to literally transport the forces and being they

1917
02:03:51,159 --> 02:03:54,840
had across the terranean ce to the battle space, but

1918
02:03:54,960 --> 02:03:58,720
all you know, they they were, they were in dire straits.

1919
02:03:58,800 --> 02:04:01,920
And one of the reasons they were just out gunned

1920
02:04:03,359 --> 02:04:08,399
was because, uh the enemy had uh T twenty six

1921
02:04:08,720 --> 02:04:14,439
tanks provided by the Soviet Union, and those tanks were

1922
02:04:14,479 --> 02:04:17,199
obsolete by the admin of World War Two, but they

1923
02:04:17,279 --> 02:04:19,800
were they were in some ways perfectly suited to the

1924
02:04:20,239 --> 02:04:25,680
the combat on the Spanish battlefield. And one of the

1925
02:04:25,720 --> 02:04:28,319
reasons I emphasized Von Toma, it's not just because I've

1926
02:04:28,359 --> 02:04:31,880
got you know, sort of like a nerve's interest in

1927
02:04:32,560 --> 02:04:34,319
the ground element of condor leading the thing.

1928
02:04:34,399 --> 02:04:34,800
Speaker 1: It's cool.

1929
02:04:35,680 --> 02:04:40,640
Speaker 2: But out of all the men that you know, Hitler

1930
02:04:41,000 --> 02:04:45,920
and you know, the the OKW could have deployed, you know,

1931
02:04:47,119 --> 02:04:50,239
to command that element, they chose Vonma. You know who

1932
02:04:50,319 --> 02:04:52,479
was this guy who was a student of On Sikh,

1933
02:04:52,760 --> 02:04:56,479
who was an incredibly progressive commander in terms of his

1934
02:04:56,640 --> 02:04:59,319
understanding of combined arms and just an all around, like

1935
02:04:59,359 --> 02:05:01,600
really well round guy. You know. They didn't just drop

1936
02:05:01,720 --> 02:05:04,800
you know, like some you know some some tried and

1937
02:05:04,920 --> 02:05:10,880
tested you know, Prussian infantry commander, you know, and that's remarkable.

1938
02:05:11,239 --> 02:05:14,680
Vontoma also like he was he was knighted owing to uh,

1939
02:05:15,880 --> 02:05:17,560
you know World War One, and I mean he was,

1940
02:05:17,640 --> 02:05:20,079
he was he was granted the title for heroism, you know,

1941
02:05:20,159 --> 02:05:22,640
like he wasn't born an aristocrats. I mean, this was

1942
02:05:22,680 --> 02:05:25,560
a guy who really really had a ship together in

1943
02:05:25,680 --> 02:05:31,640
command roles, you know. But he he uh, he won

1944
02:05:31,680 --> 02:05:38,399
a second He fought on basically he fought literally not basically,

1945
02:05:38,479 --> 02:05:40,359
he fought in every front of the First World War two,

1946
02:05:40,399 --> 02:05:42,800
which was rare. He fought. He joined the Bavarian Army,

1947
02:05:43,760 --> 02:05:48,600
an outside of hostilities. Uh, he fought on the Western

1948
02:05:48,640 --> 02:05:51,479
front of admittantly finally fought the Battle of the Marn

1949
02:05:51,720 --> 02:05:54,960
and was captured by American and French forces and became

1950
02:05:55,000 --> 02:05:58,399
a pow for the you know, the final two months

1951
02:05:58,439 --> 02:06:00,560
of the war. But you know, he fought on the

1952
02:06:00,600 --> 02:06:04,800
Eastern Front extensively and most meant it not with some exceptions.

1953
02:06:05,000 --> 02:06:07,439
You know, spent like basically equal time like in the

1954
02:06:07,479 --> 02:06:08,960
East and in the West. You know, like he fought

1955
02:06:09,000 --> 02:06:13,399
in Romania. He fought throughout the Serbian campaign, you know,

1956
02:06:13,560 --> 02:06:19,279
very well on a guy. He was awarded the the

1957
02:06:20,560 --> 02:06:25,640
the Order of Max with Joseph by the Bavarian Army,

1958
02:06:26,359 --> 02:06:27,800
which was like the you know, his the equivalent of

1959
02:06:27,840 --> 02:06:31,359
the Blue Max basically, you know, but it uh it,

1960
02:06:31,600 --> 02:06:33,640
it was equivalent of the Knight's Cross. And that's why

1961
02:06:33,840 --> 02:06:37,119
he that's why he got you know, the the the

1962
02:06:38,159 --> 02:06:43,880
the honorific in his name. But he uh van Brauschich,

1963
02:06:44,199 --> 02:06:51,159
who is kind of an under examined commander, I mean, everybody,

1964
02:06:51,479 --> 02:06:53,520
the falling out between him and Hitler, you know, in

1965
02:06:53,600 --> 02:06:59,000
the wake of the very much being a halt started

1966
02:06:59,039 --> 02:07:03,560
being halted in Moscow. It's kind of what he's most

1967
02:07:03,600 --> 02:07:06,920
known for as well as there's some strange intrigues he

1968
02:07:07,000 --> 02:07:09,279
seems to have been involved in, you know, relating to

1969
02:07:09,319 --> 02:07:12,119
the July twentieth plot. But other than that, he's kind

1970
02:07:12,119 --> 02:07:13,960
of treated as a footnote, you know, because for the

1971
02:07:14,000 --> 02:07:16,319
remainder of the war, like you know, he'd been he'd

1972
02:07:16,560 --> 02:07:20,560
been castured out, you know, going to him, the fears

1973
02:07:20,600 --> 02:07:23,479
loss of confidence in him. But he's a far more

1974
02:07:23,600 --> 02:07:29,880
dynamic character in at least in in the terms of

1975
02:07:30,119 --> 02:07:33,600
you know, his profession and how he pursued it. Then

1976
02:07:34,359 --> 02:07:39,479
people often acknowledge so he was uh, you know, he

1977
02:07:39,640 --> 02:07:45,039
was he basically Van Brousa said, had you know, cultivated

1978
02:07:45,079 --> 02:07:49,640
Ontoma's talents by by you know, asking of him they

1979
02:07:49,680 --> 02:07:54,640
become an expert armed warfare, which I assume Ontma had

1980
02:07:54,680 --> 02:07:57,720
been kind of pursuing his own course of learning in

1981
02:07:57,800 --> 02:08:01,000
that capacity anyway, I mean, just like going to the

1982
02:08:01,079 --> 02:08:07,239
battlefield record and everything else. He ended up commanding, uh,

1983
02:08:08,880 --> 02:08:14,760
he ended up commanding seventeen panther later on in the

1984
02:08:14,800 --> 02:08:19,560
Operation Barbarossa. He fought at the Battle of Moscow. Then

1985
02:08:19,600 --> 02:08:24,920
he was trying. He received the Knight's Cross, the Iron Cross. Subsequently,

1986
02:08:25,000 --> 02:08:27,760
he was transferred to North Africa and he was captured

1987
02:08:27,960 --> 02:08:31,439
at the in the aftermath of the Second Battle of

1988
02:08:31,560 --> 02:08:37,159
l a Lamin. And that's why like uh hearts like

1989
02:08:37,359 --> 02:08:39,840
uh in the German General's Talk and like all the

1990
02:08:39,920 --> 02:08:42,920
hearts like uh, you know, kind of books on on

1991
02:08:43,159 --> 02:08:48,479
Hrmacht's leadership, like Montoma like features looms large because he

1992
02:08:48,600 --> 02:08:50,760
was he was frankly in the custody of of of

1993
02:08:50,880 --> 02:08:54,479
the British army for years, you know, and he he

1994
02:08:54,600 --> 02:08:56,920
developed something of a rapport with these guys, you know,

1995
02:08:57,000 --> 02:09:02,520
I mean at uh, which is interesting. So I mean

1996
02:09:02,600 --> 02:09:06,119
some people would say, like, well, you know, that gives

1997
02:09:06,199 --> 02:09:08,960
him kind of an outsized presence in the historical record.

1998
02:09:09,159 --> 02:09:11,079
I don't really think so. I mean, there's plenty of

1999
02:09:13,359 --> 02:09:16,039
especially after the cessation of hostilities, I mean, after the

2000
02:09:16,119 --> 02:09:19,880
day of defeat, there was plenty of There's plenty of

2001
02:09:19,880 --> 02:09:23,479
surviving general officers who you know, could have been debriefed

2002
02:09:23,520 --> 02:09:26,079
all day and they would have been happy to have

2003
02:09:26,199 --> 02:09:28,680
that either lot in lieu of the gallows or you know,

2004
02:09:29,560 --> 02:09:33,600
being unceremoniously uh. You know, it's kind of like cast

2005
02:09:33,680 --> 02:09:40,439
out as on persons. Plus do the British whatever we can,

2006
02:09:40,600 --> 02:09:43,680
whatever we can say about them, they I mean, they're

2007
02:09:43,720 --> 02:09:46,319
they're not a bunch of jokers when it comes to

2008
02:09:47,439 --> 02:09:51,479
their capacity to evaluate military talent and command level. I

2009
02:09:51,520 --> 02:09:56,800
think anybody would acknowledge that, regardless, regardless of their feelings

2010
02:09:58,479 --> 02:10:04,920
about Old Blighty otherwise. But Ontoma ended up in Spain

2011
02:10:05,399 --> 02:10:09,880
in October thirty six. Uh. The first shipment at German

2012
02:10:10,000 --> 02:10:14,880
tanks was forty one Plonzer Compwagen type one pans are

2013
02:10:14,920 --> 02:10:21,479
Won tanks, okay, and like the T twenty six tanks

2014
02:10:21,520 --> 02:10:25,039
that they were deployed to combat, they were obsolete by

2015
02:10:25,600 --> 02:10:28,479
you know, ninety thirty nine forty, but it again for

2016
02:10:28,600 --> 02:10:36,840
the for the Spanish UH battlefield, they they were perfectly suited.

2017
02:10:37,760 --> 02:10:41,119
And also the Germans, as the pans A two had

2018
02:10:41,119 --> 02:10:47,079
already been developed. The Panzer one was being used largely

2019
02:10:47,159 --> 02:10:52,159
as a training tank, like by the Wehrmacht because it

2020
02:10:52,399 --> 02:10:55,479
I mean for various reasons and including it was it

2021
02:10:55,600 --> 02:10:59,880
was just a simpler machine, you know, and it was

2022
02:11:00,159 --> 02:11:02,760
uh you got to understand too, like most men at

2023
02:11:02,800 --> 02:11:04,640
this time, like it never even like driven a car,

2024
02:11:05,279 --> 02:11:09,760
you know, So it's i even today, I mean with

2025
02:11:09,920 --> 02:11:13,239
all the advantages somebody would have and you know, learning

2026
02:11:13,880 --> 02:11:15,720
how to fight in armor and you know, like a

2027
02:11:16,119 --> 02:11:19,159
contemporary tank, I mean, imagine, imagine a guy who's never

2028
02:11:19,199 --> 02:11:21,079
even been in like an automobile, you know, like it

2029
02:11:21,840 --> 02:11:26,920
it's and plus, fighting an armor is scary, it's claust aphobic.

2030
02:11:27,039 --> 02:11:29,920
You're in, you're inhaling diesel fumes. It's loud as hell,

2031
02:11:30,119 --> 02:11:33,359
like in those days. Your visibility is compromised, like if

2032
02:11:33,359 --> 02:11:35,399
you get hit, you're probably gonna burn to death or

2033
02:11:35,640 --> 02:11:38,119
you know, get your face ripped apart by shrapnel. I mean,

2034
02:11:38,159 --> 02:11:45,760
it's it's no joke, you know. So training an armor

2035
02:11:45,880 --> 02:11:47,760
is not just like teaching somebody to fire a gun,

2036
02:11:47,880 --> 02:11:50,479
or or to dry or to drive a shitty. I mean,

2037
02:11:50,520 --> 02:11:53,119
I that should go without saying. But I maybe it's because,

2038
02:11:53,119 --> 02:11:56,479
I mean, maybe it's because, like I I don't like

2039
02:11:56,920 --> 02:12:00,319
I'm I'm claust aphobic in a real way, and my

2040
02:12:00,439 --> 02:12:02,640
room one on one horror is being burnt alive. But

2041
02:12:02,760 --> 02:12:06,720
I I've always thought, uh, I've always I've always thought

2042
02:12:06,760 --> 02:12:10,279
it would be uniquely uh scary to fight in a

2043
02:12:10,399 --> 02:12:15,159
tank and I don't generally have a fear of higher situations.

2044
02:12:16,319 --> 02:12:20,680
But the total uh, the total number of pans are

2045
02:12:21,000 --> 02:12:27,760
ones to reach Spain was seventy two as regards forces

2046
02:12:27,800 --> 02:12:30,000
and being by the end of I still between nine

2047
02:12:30,039 --> 02:12:31,479
thirty six and thirty nine, a total of one hundred

2048
02:12:31,520 --> 02:12:34,439
and twenty two were deployed, you know, including like replacements

2049
02:12:34,479 --> 02:12:37,039
and everything else, you know, like going to owing to

2050
02:12:37,119 --> 02:12:40,000
attrition and going to you know, just a mechanical failure

2051
02:12:40,039 --> 02:12:46,520
and things. But and like we mentioned, uh that the

2052
02:12:46,680 --> 02:12:50,680
Nationalists were Outgune by the Soviet T twenty six, which

2053
02:12:50,720 --> 02:12:53,279
were fitted with a forty five millimeter main gun, which

2054
02:12:53,479 --> 02:12:59,479
was heavy heavy firepower, uh for the era. The pans

2055
02:12:59,479 --> 02:13:05,640
are one and it's armament was two M thirteen light

2056
02:13:05,800 --> 02:13:14,399
machine guns. It was a truly light tank, like in fact,

2057
02:13:14,479 --> 02:13:16,720
like py today's metric or even by the metric you

2058
02:13:16,800 --> 02:13:19,920
know of uh of you know, by the by the

2059
02:13:20,000 --> 02:13:22,319
metric of you know, four or five years later, eve,

2060
02:13:22,359 --> 02:13:23,960
by the mid forties, it'd be a like it'd be

2061
02:13:23,960 --> 02:13:25,239
a like it would be a light armored vehicle. It

2062
02:13:25,279 --> 02:13:28,760
wouldn't even be considered a tank, you know. And owing

2063
02:13:28,840 --> 02:13:32,000
to these only to this disparity of of arms and

2064
02:13:32,239 --> 02:13:35,840
you know, fire power rather uh, like, Spanish officers started

2065
02:13:35,880 --> 02:13:41,840
agitating for the for the platform to be retrofitted with

2066
02:13:41,920 --> 02:13:44,840
a bred of twenty millimeters main gun. You know. Then

2067
02:13:44,880 --> 02:13:49,800
Tomas strongly opposed this. You know, he said, you're gonna

2068
02:13:49,800 --> 02:13:53,640
compromise the integrity of the hull. Uh, You're gonna literally

2069
02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:59,520
have to drill holes that expose the gunner, you know,

2070
02:13:59,600 --> 02:14:03,359
to being targeted at visual range. You know, it's it's

2071
02:14:04,159 --> 02:14:07,399
it's it's it's it's a it's a fool's errand you know,

2072
02:14:07,520 --> 02:14:10,319
and it was and that's important, you know, I mean

2073
02:14:10,399 --> 02:14:13,640
it's not the spanners were thinking about this, you know,

2074
02:14:13,760 --> 02:14:18,399
like you know, like like like like like a like

2075
02:14:18,479 --> 02:14:21,479
an infantry commander would you know, like we we just

2076
02:14:21,560 --> 02:14:30,479
need to match firepower. You know, it's mantoma understood. Yeah,

2077
02:14:30,560 --> 02:14:38,199
I mean a lot of what goes into a lot

2078
02:14:38,239 --> 02:14:41,760
of what goes into combined arms warfare, I mean always

2079
02:14:41,840 --> 02:14:45,199
then and now, but also specifically, I mean, yeah, the

2080
02:14:46,039 --> 02:14:48,560
German General Staff has orianded towards you know, warfare is

2081
02:14:48,600 --> 02:14:53,960
the advance of fire, but it's not you know, packing

2082
02:14:54,000 --> 02:14:58,279
as much firepower onto onto onto a platform, I mean

2083
02:14:58,319 --> 02:15:01,239
for its own sake, you know, because you're you know,

2084
02:15:01,399 --> 02:15:03,720
you know, it's it's some kind of it's some king

2085
02:15:03,800 --> 02:15:06,079
of caliber race with the enemy is misguided, but it's

2086
02:15:06,159 --> 02:15:10,640
understandable why they would have think that way. But interestingly,

2087
02:15:10,960 --> 02:15:23,359
what ultimately was agreed upon was uh Lontoma discovered and

2088
02:15:23,479 --> 02:15:27,520
this was abided because he pretty rapidly won the confidence

2089
02:15:27,640 --> 02:15:30,520
of the Spaniards. We'll get into that interesting that paradigm

2090
02:15:30,560 --> 02:15:34,199
and kind of interplay the sociology of it in a minute.

2091
02:15:34,479 --> 02:15:39,079
But uh, what was most effective was UH have one

2092
02:15:39,239 --> 02:15:44,359
tank per section for per company size. Like a tank

2093
02:15:44,439 --> 02:15:48,920
section people would be you know about fifteen ten to

2094
02:15:49,000 --> 02:15:53,199
fifteen panzers, like one for every one. Uh one retrofitted

2095
02:15:53,439 --> 02:15:57,039
thirty millimeter gun or twenty millimeters main gun for every

2096
02:15:57,119 --> 02:16:00,319
fifteen ten to fifteen panzers. Was what made it most

2097
02:16:00,359 --> 02:16:04,239
effective because you know they could you wouldn't you wouldn't

2098
02:16:04,279 --> 02:16:09,600
sacrifice you know, the your defensive armor, you know, but

2099
02:16:09,720 --> 02:16:14,680
you could bring the firepower to bear that was required

2100
02:16:15,000 --> 02:16:18,600
you know in in in killing enemy tanks or you know,

2101
02:16:18,680 --> 02:16:20,039
assaulting hardened targets.

2102
02:16:21,199 --> 02:16:21,920
Speaker 1: But UH.

2103
02:16:24,239 --> 02:16:27,079
Speaker 2: Was also revolutionary was Comps Group TUMA as it came

2104
02:16:27,119 --> 02:16:31,479
to be. It was reinforced by the three tank companies

2105
02:16:31,880 --> 02:16:35,239
were reinforced by an anti tank section, you know, because

2106
02:16:35,239 --> 02:16:39,159
I think of eight anti tank guns. The early models

2107
02:16:39,360 --> 02:16:42,600
which again this is another this this platform popped up

2108
02:16:42,639 --> 02:16:45,680
in the Second World War some but it was basically,

2109
02:16:46,319 --> 02:16:48,159
you know, obsolescent because they didn't have the power to

2110
02:16:48,280 --> 02:16:51,440
kill you know, the main battletanks like the TV four.

2111
02:16:52,239 --> 02:16:54,159
It was the Ponzer abdur khanon.

2112
02:16:58,000 --> 02:16:58,520
Speaker 1: And uh.

2113
02:17:00,760 --> 02:17:03,200
Speaker 2: One of the things people today, unless they're kind of

2114
02:17:03,200 --> 02:17:06,079
students of World War Two or like private service type guys,

2115
02:17:07,680 --> 02:17:10,079
the advent of a main battle tank you know, which

2116
02:17:10,159 --> 02:17:13,120
is uh, you know, which which can function you know,

2117
02:17:13,479 --> 02:17:16,799
somewhat like an assault gun, you know, has the power

2118
02:17:16,879 --> 02:17:19,120
to kill enemy tanks, you know, like going to its

2119
02:17:19,879 --> 02:17:23,319
only to its penetration capabilities and things, you know, like

2120
02:17:23,399 --> 02:17:26,440
having that in on one platform. Like that's that that's

2121
02:17:26,479 --> 02:17:28,399
a post World War two innovation. I mean it can't

2122
02:17:28,399 --> 02:17:30,520
it started coming about during the Second World War. But

2123
02:17:31,479 --> 02:17:34,799
you know, your tanks are assault guns are dedicated you know,

2124
02:17:34,920 --> 02:17:40,760
anti tank platforms. They these were like discrete, discreetly purposed

2125
02:17:43,079 --> 02:17:53,959
set pieces. Which is interesting. But but Tom was deployed

2126
02:17:54,319 --> 02:17:58,959
as an obst latnant, which is a lieutenant colonels approximately.

2127
02:18:01,239 --> 02:18:07,920
Franco appointed him quote Tank Tank Inspector, which seems on

2128
02:18:08,000 --> 02:18:11,040
its face largely symbolic of a title, especially when you

2129
02:18:11,079 --> 02:18:16,120
consider that there wasn't a dedicated tank element, you know,

2130
02:18:16,239 --> 02:18:18,360
armed element in the Spanish army, because there wasn't in

2131
02:18:18,440 --> 02:18:21,920
any army really except you know, France and Germany, and

2132
02:18:21,959 --> 02:18:24,760
then in both cases it was nascense in Italy too.

2133
02:18:25,079 --> 02:18:32,440
But Uh, this he Ventoma enjoyed tremendous authority, and there's

2134
02:18:32,440 --> 02:18:35,520
a lot of surviving correspondence in the form of telegrams

2135
02:18:36,600 --> 02:18:44,639
between Toma, Franco's staff, Franco himself. One of the primary

2136
02:18:45,239 --> 02:18:55,079
liaisons between between Onon Toma and Uh and the Spanish

2137
02:18:55,319 --> 02:19:01,799
high command was Uh, a German who'd come up through

2138
02:19:01,799 --> 02:19:04,280
the ab there but he joined up with the Phalange

2139
02:19:04,399 --> 02:19:08,719
just outfit and he was fighting in Spain against the

2140
02:19:08,760 --> 02:19:13,200
communists before you know, the Reich even deployed forces, and

2141
02:19:13,719 --> 02:19:16,159
he ended up working as Vontma's interpreter. It's hard to

2142
02:19:16,200 --> 02:19:19,000
find out a lot about him, but he's a fascinating character.

2143
02:19:19,040 --> 02:19:23,120
If I can find out more about him, Adolf Klaus

2144
02:19:23,280 --> 02:19:27,719
was his name, I'll include it. But he became Onntma's

2145
02:19:28,200 --> 02:19:35,479
official interpreter. And despite the inherent tentions, frankly, there was

2146
02:19:35,520 --> 02:19:38,399
something of a classic culture is like stant not just

2147
02:19:38,479 --> 02:19:41,840
because Montma was kind of the consummate like Teutonic officer, like,

2148
02:19:42,200 --> 02:19:45,479
very uncompromising, very rigid, you know, very very much a

2149
02:19:45,559 --> 02:19:49,680
task master. The Spanish army was tough like nobody would

2150
02:19:49,680 --> 02:19:51,520
say that it was not, and I mean frankly, they

2151
02:19:51,520 --> 02:19:55,520
would not have undertaken his crusading as the Communists facing

2152
02:19:55,559 --> 02:19:59,520
the kinds of odds that were extant, like were they

2153
02:19:59,600 --> 02:20:03,639
not game tough men? But they were all fucked up.

2154
02:20:05,280 --> 02:20:08,040
Their army was not at all professionalized. You know, you

2155
02:20:08,120 --> 02:20:10,879
still had a lot of aristocrats in in in the

2156
02:20:11,000 --> 02:20:15,559
officer ranks who felt entitled the things. You know, it

2157
02:20:15,680 --> 02:20:20,120
was rife with corruption, you know, Uh, there was all

2158
02:20:20,239 --> 02:20:22,680
kinds of favoritism. You know that had million to do

2159
02:20:22,840 --> 02:20:27,159
with the with an actual battlefield performance of suitability for command.

2160
02:20:27,799 --> 02:20:31,879
There's vestigial trappings, that code of Hidalgo. And on Tom

2161
02:20:31,959 --> 02:20:34,719
it issued a scathing report when it'd only been in

2162
02:20:34,840 --> 02:20:39,120
country a couple of months. Among other things, he came

2163
02:20:39,200 --> 02:20:42,719
to notice that although there's many volunteers, like for the

2164
02:20:42,840 --> 02:20:46,399
tank branch, a bunch of other men, it's simply been

2165
02:20:46,559 --> 02:20:49,479
ordered there by Spanish commanders who wanted to get rid

2166
02:20:49,520 --> 02:20:51,360
of them, you know, so I will send them. This

2167
02:20:51,440 --> 02:20:53,440
guy's a trouble maker were like I don't like him,

2168
02:20:53,520 --> 02:20:55,280
or like maybe I want to even screw his wife

2169
02:20:55,399 --> 02:20:58,239
or something. I know, I'll send him, to send him

2170
02:20:58,239 --> 02:21:02,239
to the Count of Religion. And Valma pulled no punches,

2171
02:21:02,440 --> 02:21:07,520
and he uh, he threatened to leave. He threatened, in

2172
02:21:07,600 --> 02:21:11,520
his words, uh, you know, just just just like resign

2173
02:21:11,600 --> 02:21:19,520
command and leave. And he was able to convince Franco

2174
02:21:20,600 --> 02:21:23,040
or more properly, I mean, I mean Franco was a

2175
02:21:24,000 --> 02:21:25,760
Franco new what side his bread was buttered on. He

2176
02:21:25,840 --> 02:21:28,680
recognized he needed the Germans, and he needed von Toma.

2177
02:21:28,760 --> 02:21:33,040
But the whoever in the high command were, you know,

2178
02:21:33,120 --> 02:21:36,639
his primary points of contact, he was able to finesse

2179
02:21:36,760 --> 02:21:41,840
them to you know that look like, whoever the men

2180
02:21:41,920 --> 02:21:44,040
you send me, they've got to be the constant the

2181
02:21:44,079 --> 02:21:46,239
Ponzert group. They've got to be comfortable with a variety

2182
02:21:46,280 --> 02:21:48,959
of functions and roles of a type that you are

2183
02:21:49,040 --> 02:21:54,079
not habituated to and probably are probably are our occupational

2184
02:21:56,559 --> 02:22:01,040
functions of first impression, you know, like I said, they

2185
02:22:01,079 --> 02:22:03,520
had to be psychologically tough and fortified to deal with

2186
02:22:03,559 --> 02:22:11,680
the inherent difficulties of fighting and armor. They he said

2187
02:22:11,719 --> 02:22:16,680
that just in in in raw like staff needs or

2188
02:22:16,840 --> 02:22:19,719
personnel needs. You know that Thomas said there there had

2189
02:22:19,719 --> 02:22:23,040
to be at least fifty volunteer troops posted at all

2190
02:22:23,159 --> 02:22:25,719
times to the tank school, you know, the tank training

2191
02:22:25,760 --> 02:22:29,760
around and on Tone was overseeing twenty five dedicated gunner trainees,

2192
02:22:29,840 --> 02:22:35,600
twenty five dedicated drivers you know being uh you know

2193
02:22:35,719 --> 02:22:42,000
after after their initial training subjective, they should then undertake

2194
02:22:42,000 --> 02:22:47,639
a four week course, a combat training course, upon completion

2195
02:22:47,760 --> 02:22:49,920
of which they could be immediately posted a front as

2196
02:22:50,000 --> 02:22:55,399
needed as replacements to be a constant rotation of tank

2197
02:22:55,479 --> 02:22:59,719
crews you know, who are highly trained in every every

2198
02:23:00,040 --> 02:23:08,280
function of armored warfare. You know, they they get her,

2199
02:23:09,200 --> 02:23:12,600
you know, they they were habituated and uh, they'd be

2200
02:23:12,639 --> 02:23:15,280
accompanied by their officers or n c os you know

2201
02:23:15,319 --> 02:23:20,440
that had overseen them during the training cycle. And Monton

2202
02:23:20,600 --> 02:23:24,000
insisted upon this too. This is a general postulate that

2203
02:23:25,120 --> 02:23:30,159
was to become doctrine. Squad CEOs who are who would

2204
02:23:30,159 --> 02:23:32,000
be n c os in the Spanish Army, I believe,

2205
02:23:32,120 --> 02:23:34,760
you know, like senior n c os and company commanders

2206
02:23:34,799 --> 02:23:38,159
who would be officers they they when tod says they

2207
02:23:38,159 --> 02:23:40,840
had to always be present with their squad and company

2208
02:23:41,040 --> 02:23:44,239
actively leading the men from the front. This was not

2209
02:23:44,399 --> 02:23:50,639
this cold. You know, this was not negotiable. And he

2210
02:23:50,840 --> 02:23:55,040
concluded this report by stating openly that if the tank

2211
02:23:55,600 --> 02:24:02,079
section cannot make up for the casualties that you know

2212
02:24:02,159 --> 02:24:06,399
they're going to suffer with troops and commanders and n

2213
02:24:06,440 --> 02:24:10,799
c os or were both tactically and technically proficient, that

2214
02:24:10,959 --> 02:24:13,319
we're going to lose the war. You know. It's just

2215
02:24:13,440 --> 02:24:15,920
there's no two ways about it. You know, this war

2216
02:24:16,040 --> 02:24:21,079
is going to be one or lost with the ground element,

2217
02:24:21,719 --> 02:24:25,920
and uh, it's going to be one by proper deployment

2218
02:24:26,799 --> 02:24:32,360
of the of armor. Okay. And now I hope it's

2219
02:24:32,680 --> 02:24:40,200
coming into focus. Why I subjected the listeners to that

2220
02:24:40,319 --> 02:24:47,239
extended introduction about the revolution and military affairs and Meerscheimer's

2221
02:24:48,159 --> 02:24:51,440
postulates they're in and the you know that what's what

2222
02:24:51,520 --> 02:24:54,319
can be thought of as the Blitz Greek controversy, Okay,

2223
02:24:54,559 --> 02:25:01,200
because what I am positing is in buttle to both

2224
02:25:01,239 --> 02:25:07,159
of those perspectives, as I'm sure people are discerning. I'm

2225
02:25:07,200 --> 02:25:10,079
not any kind of military expert at all, Okay, but

2226
02:25:10,360 --> 02:25:12,680
I do know something about history, and I do know

2227
02:25:12,840 --> 02:25:20,840
something about you know, the Vermont, all right, and I think, uh,

2228
02:25:22,680 --> 02:25:27,479
I know something about military science as much as uh,

2229
02:25:28,879 --> 02:25:30,559
you know, like a wayman who's not like a game

2230
02:25:30,639 --> 02:25:34,559
theorist or like a prior service officer type. Can you know,

2231
02:25:34,639 --> 02:25:36,719
people are welcome to take me to task for this,

2232
02:25:37,000 --> 02:25:40,239
and I mean it, you know, I make myself available

2233
02:25:40,280 --> 02:25:43,399
anybody who wants to debate these things that I propose.

2234
02:25:43,520 --> 02:25:48,680
But you know, like I said, I'm relying upon the

2235
02:25:48,760 --> 02:25:57,120
direct testimony of the participants to these events and uh

2236
02:25:58,319 --> 02:26:02,399
you know, the and relying upon you know, the conditions

2237
02:26:02,479 --> 02:26:08,520
leading to the outcome of disengagement. You know, it's I

2238
02:26:08,559 --> 02:26:13,879
don't think it can be said that I'm speculating on

2239
02:26:14,079 --> 02:26:19,879
TOMA also, and again this is something that people generally

2240
02:26:20,000 --> 02:26:23,879
only discussed from the econics. The Battle of France. I

2241
02:26:24,000 --> 02:26:29,559
realized the first open ended deployment of the fair Michtles

2242
02:26:29,559 --> 02:26:34,200
in Poland. But Poland didn't have a meaningful, uh you know,

2243
02:26:34,399 --> 02:26:42,360
tank section. So we're talking about you know, modern combined

2244
02:26:42,479 --> 02:26:50,319
arms between you know, between forces where it's like a

2245
02:26:50,440 --> 02:26:56,760
general parody you know, technological as well as numerical. Our

2246
02:26:57,680 --> 02:27:03,680
R analysis begins in nineteen forty, but Antma directed that

2247
02:27:04,239 --> 02:27:07,399
tank companies can only could not operate in isolation from

2248
02:27:07,440 --> 02:27:10,520
one another. They had to utilized, They had to utilized

2249
02:27:10,639 --> 02:27:15,280
massed firepower and advance of fire. An addition, the transport

2250
02:27:15,360 --> 02:27:20,360
company and the supporting mobile workshop and maintenance company. You know,

2251
02:27:20,440 --> 02:27:23,840
they had to be maintained at optimal capabilities and deployed

2252
02:27:23,879 --> 02:27:26,440
to the front at all times and support the assault element.

2253
02:27:27,120 --> 02:27:30,760
You know, uh, regardless of the drain that this is

2254
02:27:30,920 --> 02:27:37,360
gonna you know, place on on the regular infantry and

2255
02:27:37,719 --> 02:27:42,719
on you know, the corp of engineers and anybody else.

2256
02:27:42,840 --> 02:27:44,680
You know, this is yours, this is your assault element.

2257
02:27:45,559 --> 02:27:47,959
This is the share punt of your assault element. You know,

2258
02:27:48,280 --> 02:27:51,159
it has to take absolute priority and that yeah, okay,

2259
02:27:51,200 --> 02:27:53,200
we take that for granted today. But again this is

2260
02:27:53,520 --> 02:27:57,120
this is nineteen thirty six in Spain. Okay, armored armored

2261
02:27:57,159 --> 02:27:59,879
warfare as we know it doesn't exist yet, you know,

2262
02:28:00,280 --> 02:28:04,840
and this is four years this is three three years

2263
02:28:04,840 --> 02:28:07,000
and some months before the Battle of France. Okay, So

2264
02:28:07,120 --> 02:28:13,719
this is remarkably sick. And I spoke a moment ago

2265
02:28:13,799 --> 02:28:18,079
about there's a lot said, especially because you know, relations

2266
02:28:18,120 --> 02:28:25,600
were not always particularly amiable, you know, between the Germans

2267
02:28:25,639 --> 02:28:28,000
and their Latin allies, whether we're talking about you know,

2268
02:28:28,040 --> 02:28:32,760
the Italians of the Spaniards. A lot of people insinuate

2269
02:28:32,799 --> 02:28:34,920
that there was a kind of like ugly racial prejudice

2270
02:28:34,959 --> 02:28:42,239
at work there. I think that's overstated what came to

2271
02:28:42,319 --> 02:28:47,680
be known, uh perhaps kind of you know. I mean,

2272
02:28:47,719 --> 02:28:53,239
it's what came in on as the Tomori affair, which

2273
02:28:53,280 --> 02:28:57,559
seems to overstate the significance of it, you know, by

2274
02:28:57,680 --> 02:29:00,079
characterizing it as if with some sort of scandal. On

2275
02:29:00,159 --> 02:29:04,200
December thirty first, nineteen thirty eight, Vontova sent an urgent

2276
02:29:04,280 --> 02:29:13,159
telegram to Infantry Colonel Ricardo Fernandez de Tamer. He was

2277
02:29:13,200 --> 02:29:17,360
the primary liaison with Franco's high command or the equivalent

2278
02:29:17,440 --> 02:29:25,120
of a general staff okay, in some basic capacity, and uh,

2279
02:29:25,760 --> 02:29:28,079
this was going into the final phase of the war.

2280
02:29:28,520 --> 02:29:32,959
Vntoma demanded no uncertain terms to be informed beforehand of

2281
02:29:33,040 --> 02:29:37,559
any change of an operational or logistical nature, or any

2282
02:29:37,639 --> 02:29:41,559
personnel related matter or policy. And this had all these

2283
02:29:41,600 --> 02:29:43,479
things that to be subject to his veto or approval,

2284
02:29:44,479 --> 02:29:46,639
you know, And he reiterated, I you know, I was

2285
02:29:46,639 --> 02:29:50,360
appointed by Franco his tank inspector, you know. And is

2286
02:29:51,000 --> 02:29:54,399
is a right demand is not immediately obeyed, I will

2287
02:29:54,399 --> 02:29:57,239
withdraw my contribution. In his words, so again this is

2288
02:29:57,280 --> 02:30:01,440
him threatening to throw his hands up and resign. You

2289
02:30:01,520 --> 02:30:03,600
could read that as him being a prima donna of

2290
02:30:03,680 --> 02:30:06,680
a sort. I think he was entirely serious. I don't

2291
02:30:07,079 --> 02:30:13,639
think that can be disputed. And and again you're looking

2292
02:30:13,680 --> 02:30:16,159
at this army, which you know in the Spaniards, which

2293
02:30:16,200 --> 02:30:18,719
again has some very core of very game tough men,

2294
02:30:19,360 --> 02:30:23,079
but it's unbelievably and most comically corrupt, you know. Uh,

2295
02:30:25,000 --> 02:30:28,399
and it's only kind of held together at the level

2296
02:30:28,479 --> 02:30:33,760
of a general officers by people like Tom Marie, who

2297
02:30:33,840 --> 02:30:36,920
were you know, and later Surrouano sooner, who will get

2298
02:30:36,959 --> 02:30:40,440
into it, was a great man. But uh, you know,

2299
02:30:41,959 --> 02:30:46,559
cracking the whip on these people was uh what was essential?

2300
02:30:47,399 --> 02:30:47,559
Speaker 1: You know.

2301
02:30:48,719 --> 02:30:51,000
Speaker 2: It doesn't owe as some kind of like Teutonic racism

2302
02:30:51,120 --> 02:30:55,159
against you know, Latins or something, which, uh, that kind

2303
02:30:55,200 --> 02:30:58,319
of interpretation has become increasingly common. I've noticed, you know,

2304
02:30:58,479 --> 02:31:00,920
even in like military history, which is supposed to be

2305
02:31:00,920 --> 02:31:04,559
just kind of like hard and fast accounts of the facts,

2306
02:31:04,959 --> 02:31:09,840
you know, and the uh, the quantifiable side of things.

2307
02:31:10,680 --> 02:31:12,920
I think that's bullshit, you know, I mean, that's why

2308
02:31:12,959 --> 02:31:16,520
I but it's also there's what came of of, uh,

2309
02:31:17,040 --> 02:31:22,760
the Thammary memo was or telegram, bantmac Gott, whatever he wanted.

2310
02:31:22,879 --> 02:31:24,840
He got everything he wanted, you know, and he he

2311
02:31:25,079 --> 02:31:30,360
he basically became the de facto you know, commander or

2312
02:31:30,479 --> 02:31:34,000
armed forces for nationalist Spain, you know, and that's that

2313
02:31:34,079 --> 02:31:37,479
goes to short the degree to which the Wehrmacht was

2314
02:31:37,520 --> 02:31:41,520
the key to you know, uh nationalist victory in the war.

2315
02:31:44,319 --> 02:31:47,840
It wasn't you know, i U the loof Off made

2316
02:31:47,879 --> 02:31:51,399
a tremendous contribution. And and like we discussed, you know,

2317
02:31:51,719 --> 02:31:55,920
in the previous two episodes, Erhard Milch was it was

2318
02:31:55,959 --> 02:32:00,920
a was a military genius and an incredible commander and

2319
02:32:01,200 --> 02:32:03,959
one of the greatest air commanders of all time. I

2320
02:32:04,079 --> 02:32:06,600
take nothing away from that, but it was you know,

2321
02:32:06,719 --> 02:32:10,399
wars are one you know, by by the ground element, Okay,

2322
02:32:10,479 --> 02:32:16,799
they are, and this was essential to that effort. And

2323
02:32:18,280 --> 02:32:22,040
we're not just talking about you know, with without von Tolma,

2324
02:32:22,159 --> 02:32:24,639
like there is no there is no there is no

2325
02:32:24,879 --> 02:32:27,799
Spanish armored element. You know, you're throwing your you're throwing

2326
02:32:27,840 --> 02:32:30,200
Spanish entry at these T twenty six tanks. They're being

2327
02:32:30,239 --> 02:32:34,959
cut to pieces, you know. So the fact not only

2328
02:32:35,040 --> 02:32:41,479
that he was able to constitute you know, armored force,

2329
02:32:41,559 --> 02:32:44,959
but before there had been nothing. But he managed to

2330
02:32:45,000 --> 02:32:48,159
do this really with a handful of pans or ones,

2331
02:32:49,280 --> 02:32:51,319
armed with a couple of light machine guns and not

2332
02:32:51,399 --> 02:32:55,040
particularly durable armor. And he was able to convince so

2333
02:32:55,159 --> 02:32:57,520
much of proud Spaniards to basically like hand him like

2334
02:32:57,600 --> 02:33:01,239
absolute authority over the over the entire enterprise. That's that's

2335
02:33:01,280 --> 02:33:07,000
nothing sort of remarkable. I don't think it could be contested.

2336
02:33:08,760 --> 02:33:21,719
But there's a subsequent and particularly in like the final

2337
02:33:22,040 --> 02:33:24,840
months of the war in ninet thirty nine, they developed

2338
02:33:24,879 --> 02:33:29,319
this kind of like genuinely amicable cordiality, at least as

2339
02:33:29,319 --> 02:33:33,920
far as you can discern through the language barrier and

2340
02:33:34,000 --> 02:33:38,000
through the you know, brevity of of these written communications

2341
02:33:38,040 --> 02:33:44,159
and telegrams between Montona and tamer But the uh, the

2342
02:33:44,319 --> 02:33:48,319
rest of these Spanish officers too, who initially had a

2343
02:33:49,920 --> 02:33:54,079
you know, been not out and out hostile because they

2344
02:33:54,120 --> 02:33:58,280
realized this a various situation and that they needed they

2345
02:33:58,319 --> 02:34:04,440
needed the Germans. But you know, they certainly Spaniards are

2346
02:34:04,440 --> 02:34:09,479
a proud people if nothing else, and I it was

2347
02:34:09,520 --> 02:34:13,840
a better pill for them to swallow to seed control

2348
02:34:15,879 --> 02:34:18,120
a Veramacht officer in that way. Although there's no shame

2349
02:34:18,200 --> 02:34:20,799
in that. You know, the Vermacht was the best and

2350
02:34:20,840 --> 02:34:26,799
they're they're the greatest of all time. By the end

2351
02:34:26,840 --> 02:34:34,040
of the war, ultimately, Spanish tankers they were undergoing a

2352
02:34:34,079 --> 02:34:41,079
sixty day course basic course for all personnel, you know,

2353
02:34:41,200 --> 02:34:45,799
those uh, those who are trained to be drivers as

2354
02:34:45,840 --> 02:34:49,799
well as those training to be gunners. It was thirty

2355
02:34:49,879 --> 02:34:56,000
days of theoretical training, thirty days of practice duration and

2356
02:34:56,120 --> 02:35:00,760
then UH intensive combat training and then deployment to the

2357
02:35:00,840 --> 02:35:05,200
front as needed. There's a constant you know, like as

2358
02:35:05,719 --> 02:35:09,200
has discussed a moment ago, there was a constant flow

2359
02:35:09,239 --> 02:35:14,959
of replacements, you know who UH had at least cohesion

2360
02:35:15,040 --> 02:35:17,319
within the squad of a KI and that only comes

2361
02:35:18,440 --> 02:35:24,479
from you know, living and UH fighting together ordinarily because

2362
02:35:24,479 --> 02:35:26,719
they they'd gone too the training cycle and a lot

2363
02:35:26,719 --> 02:35:28,680
of these men were combe veterans too, just not of

2364
02:35:28,959 --> 02:35:31,680
you know, obviously not of fighting an armor you know,

2365
02:35:31,799 --> 02:35:34,719
some were some had no no prior experience, but they

2366
02:35:34,719 --> 02:35:41,840
were the minority. But the UH what's fascinating too is

2367
02:35:41,920 --> 02:35:52,079
that the UH the anti tank element that Montou insisted upon,

2368
02:35:52,639 --> 02:35:55,600
that particular assault gun. There was a three point seven

2369
02:35:55,719 --> 02:36:04,200
centimeter assault gun. It was manufactured by Ryan Medel borsing

2370
02:36:05,360 --> 02:36:08,799
and it rapidly became ubiquitous like that itself, that like

2371
02:36:08,879 --> 02:36:12,959
that making model itself as well as reverse engineered knockoffs

2372
02:36:14,280 --> 02:36:16,600
in the in the in the Red Army, in the

2373
02:36:16,719 --> 02:36:22,120
in the US Army, the Japanese imitated it, uh the

2374
02:36:22,639 --> 02:36:25,840
the the Wehrmacht faced them in the in the Benlux

2375
02:36:25,920 --> 02:36:29,479
countries when they went through Holland. The Italians deployed it,

2376
02:36:29,639 --> 02:36:34,159
you know, as late as uh as late as forty three,

2377
02:36:34,319 --> 02:36:37,920
like around the time the Selearial landings. So again, like

2378
02:36:38,040 --> 02:36:43,000
even even though these uh pretty much every pretty much

2379
02:36:43,000 --> 02:36:45,879
every weapons platform we've described again it was like obsolescent,

2380
02:36:45,959 --> 02:36:48,079
but they had been a World War Two, but these

2381
02:36:48,159 --> 02:36:55,520
were perfectly suited to the Spanish battlespace, and it was uh,

2382
02:36:57,559 --> 02:37:01,280
it was the experience of these platforms they're you know,

2383
02:37:01,440 --> 02:37:05,840
in heavy combat over years that led to the development

2384
02:37:06,040 --> 02:37:10,120
of you know, successor technologies. And I find that fascinating.

2385
02:37:11,280 --> 02:37:15,120
And you know, that's why, like I said, there's plenty

2386
02:37:15,120 --> 02:37:22,159
of historians who posit that the the Second World War

2387
02:37:22,159 --> 02:37:26,559
actually started in Spain. From his historics, it's gotta hit

2388
02:37:26,600 --> 02:37:29,920
Glian perspective. I've got more than a little bit of

2389
02:37:31,479 --> 02:37:40,280
sympathy for that perspective. But it's also military objectives were

2390
02:37:40,360 --> 02:37:46,719
oddly bound up with policy objectives in the twentieth century

2391
02:37:46,920 --> 02:37:53,200
in a way that was not conceivable before or since.

2392
02:37:53,920 --> 02:37:55,920
And it wasn't just that, you know, the German rech

2393
02:37:56,600 --> 02:38:03,079
and Hitler himself had a concept of Laban's wrong and

2394
02:38:03,879 --> 02:38:09,079
racial posterity and the need to develop Europe into a

2395
02:38:09,200 --> 02:38:12,559
superpower because the age of the superpower arrived. That was

2396
02:38:12,639 --> 02:38:18,079
part of it, but it owed also everybody, from Werner

2397
02:38:18,200 --> 02:38:24,000
Sombart to George Sorell to Ernest Younger made the point,

2398
02:38:24,399 --> 02:38:29,639
you know, sometimes obliquely, sometimes very directly that just the

2399
02:38:29,799 --> 02:38:34,760
nature of labor and production and technics in the first

2400
02:38:34,799 --> 02:38:37,559
half of the twentieth century just lent itself to warfare

2401
02:38:38,399 --> 02:38:47,040
and organized violence at scale just became something like potentialities

2402
02:38:47,120 --> 02:38:52,959
therein like led to it being a tactic of first recourse,

2403
02:38:53,559 --> 02:38:55,600
you know, whether you're talking about the internal situation of

2404
02:38:55,680 --> 02:39:00,479
states or whether you're talking about you know, resolving dentist

2405
02:39:02,120 --> 02:39:08,239
claims as were always you know, an ongoing issue in

2406
02:39:08,440 --> 02:39:14,159
uh European cabinet politics. You know, there's not I made

2407
02:39:14,159 --> 02:39:19,399
the point again and again. It's fascinating that the German

2408
02:39:19,520 --> 02:39:22,879
contribution to the Enlightenment kind of their only full embrace

2409
02:39:22,920 --> 02:39:28,760
of rationalism was in military science. To Clausalitz, but war

2410
02:39:28,920 --> 02:39:31,600
is not just diplomacy by their means or politics by

2411
02:39:31,639 --> 02:39:36,520
their means. There's always a political aspect of warfare. But

2412
02:39:37,079 --> 02:39:40,959
going to war under solve political problems, you know, in fact,

2413
02:39:41,000 --> 02:39:47,479
it almost never does. The twentieth century in a rare capacity,

2414
02:39:50,600 --> 02:39:56,760
there was a perfect congruence between UH military power and

2415
02:39:56,879 --> 02:40:03,559
the ability to realize high political objective is and that

2416
02:40:03,879 --> 02:40:06,000
is kind of the moral of the story here, there

2417
02:40:06,079 --> 02:40:09,200
is one. I realized that this was a very heavy

2418
02:40:09,680 --> 02:40:14,360
UH kind of technical discussion, but it's important to understanding

2419
02:40:16,639 --> 02:40:20,319
the German contribution to the war, and I wanted to

2420
02:40:20,520 --> 02:40:24,559
this is this is my dedicated Condo Relegion episode. We'll

2421
02:40:24,600 --> 02:40:27,200
get into the Flange, and we'll get into the ideology

2422
02:40:27,399 --> 02:40:29,399
of the Spanish nationalists, and we'll get into kind of

2423
02:40:29,399 --> 02:40:33,760
the development of the situation there in the next episode.

2424
02:40:33,799 --> 02:40:35,520
But I wanted to get this out of the way. Plus,

2425
02:40:35,680 --> 02:40:39,200
I hope people find it interesting because I I mean, admittedly,

2426
02:40:39,280 --> 02:40:41,600
one of my primary research areas is the Third Reich,

2427
02:40:42,280 --> 02:40:46,040
but even were that not the case, that this positive

2428
02:40:46,120 --> 02:40:50,040
variable in the Spanish Civil War was then intervention of

2429
02:40:50,120 --> 02:40:53,319
condo religion or by condo religion. So I think, uh,

2430
02:40:54,239 --> 02:40:56,120
I think it's just material on its own terms.

2431
02:40:56,799 --> 02:40:59,360
Speaker 1: Today has been a long day. Give plugs and we'll

2432
02:40:59,360 --> 02:40:59,799
get out of here.

2433
02:41:00,760 --> 02:41:05,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, you can find me always on substick at

2434
02:41:05,360 --> 02:41:09,440
real Thomas seven seven seven dot substick dot com. In

2435
02:41:09,479 --> 02:41:11,639
a couple of weeks, I'm launching season two of the

2436
02:41:11,719 --> 02:41:14,719
Mind Phaser podcast, and when I do, all the season

2437
02:41:14,799 --> 02:41:17,559
one episodes will be available for free. A lot of

2438
02:41:17,600 --> 02:41:22,799
things are gonna change in my content brand. I think

2439
02:41:22,840 --> 02:41:28,159
everybody will find that to be a positive change. I've

2440
02:41:28,200 --> 02:41:32,319
got a lot going on. I'm still on Twitter, uh,

2441
02:41:32,559 --> 02:41:35,360
but I am trying to disengage from there a bit,

2442
02:41:35,440 --> 02:41:42,959
as I've said, I've uh, I know, I said about

2443
02:41:42,959 --> 02:41:45,879
a week ago, I was gonna drop a statement of

2444
02:41:45,920 --> 02:41:48,920
my substick about moving forward, like how things is gonna

2445
02:41:48,920 --> 02:41:51,079
work relating to you know. I'm gonna make a lot

2446
02:41:51,159 --> 02:41:53,399
more stuff free. But also, like I said, I there's

2447
02:41:53,440 --> 02:41:54,959
some projects I kind of want to plug that I

2448
02:41:55,120 --> 02:41:57,079
I had to put on the back burner, like going

2449
02:41:57,159 --> 02:42:00,440
to Frankly, like ill health and stuff. But that's back

2450
02:42:00,520 --> 02:42:05,479
on track. I'll explicate that on my substack by this weekend.

2451
02:42:06,239 --> 02:42:08,040
I'm not going to take up Peach time when his

2452
02:42:08,159 --> 02:42:11,319
show to do that. But thanks again for the invitation

2453
02:42:11,719 --> 02:42:15,200
today and always, man, I hope everybody found us to

2454
02:42:15,280 --> 02:42:18,440
be constructive and stimulating well.

2455
02:42:18,520 --> 02:42:20,479
Speaker 1: And I just want to encourage people to go to

2456
02:42:20,600 --> 02:42:24,600
Thomas's substack and subscribe. I mean I I went there,

2457
02:42:24,680 --> 02:42:30,520
read one free article and subscribed and immediately started promoting

2458
02:42:31,120 --> 02:42:35,239
Thomas's work on Twitter. And then Thomas was nice enough

2459
02:42:35,319 --> 02:42:39,479
to come on the show and what is this forty

2460
02:42:39,520 --> 02:42:40,280
episodes later.

2461
02:42:41,440 --> 02:42:44,559
Speaker 2: No, yeah, that's a fantastic endorsement. Man. I mean, not

2462
02:42:44,680 --> 02:42:46,760
just because you're a serious guy and you're my friend,

2463
02:42:46,879 --> 02:42:50,680
but no, I really really appreciate you getting me a platform,

2464
02:42:50,840 --> 02:42:54,959
and otherwise I would not have nearly the audience that

2465
02:42:55,000 --> 02:42:57,159
I have. And plus, I mean, like I said, I

2466
02:42:57,239 --> 02:43:02,120
think I hope people we'll get something else, and I

2467
02:43:02,159 --> 02:43:05,399
think they do because feedback has been uniformly positive, and

2468
02:43:05,840 --> 02:43:08,159
it's not It's not always the case with things I do.

2469
02:43:08,600 --> 02:43:11,719
So yeah, I can't thank you enough, as well as

2470
02:43:11,760 --> 02:43:14,239
the people who tune in and you know what I mean, engaged.

2471
02:43:14,600 --> 02:43:15,200
That's just great.

2472
02:43:15,680 --> 02:43:21,000
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Thomas, thank you. I want to welcome

2473
02:43:21,040 --> 02:43:24,959
everyone back to the Pegana Show, part four of the

2474
02:43:25,000 --> 02:43:28,000
Spanish Civil War series. I'm going to turn it over

2475
02:43:28,120 --> 02:43:31,159
to Thomas seven seven seven and just let him go.

2476
02:43:31,479 --> 02:43:33,680
Let me just ask, hey, you doing Thomas.

2477
02:43:34,079 --> 02:43:38,120
Speaker 2: And very well? Thanks? What I want to talk about today?

2478
02:43:39,079 --> 02:43:41,159
It might seem as I'm jumping around a lot on

2479
02:43:41,239 --> 02:43:44,639
the topic, and forgive me for that, but there're some

2480
02:43:44,760 --> 02:43:47,719
things that I sort of want to tie in, not

2481
02:43:47,959 --> 02:43:52,760
just to our earlier series, revisionist series that we've done,

2482
02:43:54,600 --> 02:43:57,399
but also people have been asking questions that I want

2483
02:43:57,399 --> 02:44:01,959
to kind of address now, you know, one of which

2484
02:44:02,079 --> 02:44:07,239
is to most the two things people ask me why

2485
02:44:07,239 --> 02:44:11,360
I'm so critical of Franco, because the Franco is somewhat revered,

2486
02:44:12,040 --> 02:44:14,680
and part of that owes the frankly kind of the

2487
02:44:14,760 --> 02:44:19,200
lingering kind of a lingering Cold War hangover, you know,

2488
02:44:19,319 --> 02:44:22,200
especially after Spain sort of normal lives and you know,

2489
02:44:22,360 --> 02:44:25,239
not it was brought into the the e C at

2490
02:44:25,319 --> 02:44:28,280
least in a rudimentary way, I mean shipped back then

2491
02:44:28,319 --> 02:44:29,920
it was the European it was the e C S,

2492
02:44:30,200 --> 02:44:33,159
the Cold and Steel community, you know, by Eisenhower. It

2493
02:44:33,280 --> 02:44:36,520
wasn't until much later that Spain was assimilated in the NATO,

2494
02:44:37,239 --> 02:44:42,680
But the Franco regime is always it's uh. And I

2495
02:44:42,799 --> 02:44:45,799
mean even before that officially assimilated and formally assimilated in

2496
02:44:45,799 --> 02:44:48,680
to NATO, there was a lot of you know, during

2497
02:44:48,719 --> 02:44:51,559
command post exercises and stuff, you know, like Spain would

2498
02:44:51,639 --> 02:44:56,959
you know, be included in a basic way there was

2499
02:44:57,120 --> 02:45:00,159
Spain was kind of viewed as you know, the good guy, uh,

2500
02:45:00,479 --> 02:45:02,280
like quasi fascist regime.

2501
02:45:02,120 --> 02:45:02,879
Speaker 1: During the Cold War.

2502
02:45:04,680 --> 02:45:07,040
Speaker 2: And I think that a lot of scholarship, like otherwise

2503
02:45:07,479 --> 02:45:11,000
pretty based and pretty correct, you know, right wing scholarship.

2504
02:45:11,120 --> 02:45:13,000
You know, that was written in like the seventies and

2505
02:45:14,079 --> 02:45:17,079
in the eighties. You know, I think people internalize that

2506
02:45:17,600 --> 02:45:21,520
and also you know, their their kind of view of

2507
02:45:21,559 --> 02:45:24,559
Franco is of you know, the Flange movement and you know,

2508
02:45:24,639 --> 02:45:28,200
the heroics of of the war and you know kind

2509
02:45:28,200 --> 02:45:32,479
of religion and all of that. You know, they they

2510
02:45:32,600 --> 02:45:35,840
they don't realize kind of how perfid is and and

2511
02:45:36,520 --> 02:45:39,559
and machiavellian Franco was. And I think that could be

2512
02:45:39,760 --> 02:45:43,959
justified if if what Franco accomplished with some sort of

2513
02:45:44,120 --> 02:45:47,399
enduring political culture, you know, the of of that that

2514
02:45:47,600 --> 02:45:51,159
served you know, the Spanish as a people, you know,

2515
02:45:51,239 --> 02:45:53,559
and as as a race, you know, in historical terms

2516
02:45:53,600 --> 02:45:56,159
and things. But that that's not at all what he accomplished.

2517
02:45:56,280 --> 02:45:58,440
I mean, Franco at the end of the day, accomplished nothing.

2518
02:45:59,319 --> 02:46:01,680
I'd say that he was a detriment you know, over

2519
02:46:01,760 --> 02:46:05,639
the over the long term. But you know, so people

2520
02:46:05,719 --> 02:46:07,360
ask I want to get into a little bit like

2521
02:46:07,559 --> 02:46:13,040
what exactly you know, Franco's sensibilities were on political matters,

2522
02:46:13,520 --> 02:46:17,559
you know, particually at the most critical junctures, you know

2523
02:46:17,639 --> 02:46:20,319
which and the most critical obviously would would be the

2524
02:46:21,319 --> 02:46:25,000
the warriors that the Second World War, I mean, not

2525
02:46:25,120 --> 02:46:28,479
the Spanish War. But also people ask me like what

2526
02:46:28,760 --> 02:46:31,399
what exactly was the nature of the relationship, you know,

2527
02:46:31,920 --> 02:46:34,520
between Madrid and Berlin and Madrid and the rest of

2528
02:46:34,600 --> 02:46:37,840
the Access Alliance, And uh, you know, I've made the

2529
02:46:37,920 --> 02:46:41,479
point that Serrano soon there was a great man, and

2530
02:46:41,559 --> 02:46:43,920
he was very you know, he was he was very

2531
02:46:44,040 --> 02:46:46,600
very pro axis. You know, he he wanted to formally

2532
02:46:46,920 --> 02:46:49,200
join the Access Alliance. And we'll get into who soon

2533
02:46:49,239 --> 02:46:51,520
there was in a minute. But so I kind of

2534
02:46:51,559 --> 02:46:55,520
want to get into that today and then we'll pivot

2535
02:46:55,760 --> 02:46:57,680
in the next episode and talk about you know what

2536
02:46:57,760 --> 02:47:08,319
the Falange movement was prop and ye pick up as

2537
02:47:08,360 --> 02:47:10,840
a follow up, uh, you know to the codroleach An

2538
02:47:10,840 --> 02:47:14,559
episode we just did. But for now, for the day,

2539
02:47:14,600 --> 02:47:16,680
that's that's what I want to cover. And plus it's

2540
02:47:16,719 --> 02:47:18,280
like on my mind, I was, I was researching this

2541
02:47:18,399 --> 02:47:20,680
a bunch, like going to some other stuff I'm writing. So,

2542
02:47:20,799 --> 02:47:23,159
I mean, it's convenient too, There's only so much time

2543
02:47:23,200 --> 02:47:24,920
in the day, and while it's like fresh in my mind,

2544
02:47:26,079 --> 02:47:30,719
that's kind of what I wanted to get into. David Irving,

2545
02:47:31,799 --> 02:47:35,079
who I I mean, it goes out saying I've got

2546
02:47:35,120 --> 02:47:38,079
a huge esteem for him. Irving lived in Spain and

2547
02:47:38,200 --> 02:47:40,280
one of his one of the one of his wives

2548
02:47:40,520 --> 02:47:42,520
was a Spanish woman. I think his first wife was

2549
02:47:42,559 --> 02:47:48,399
a Spanish woman, and he famously said life and quote

2550
02:47:48,559 --> 02:47:51,440
life in Spain during the Franco years was very cheap,

2551
02:47:52,120 --> 02:47:56,079
very simple, and very unthreatening. There's little criminality, no drugs

2552
02:47:56,120 --> 02:47:59,600
and no street muggings. The roads were primitive, the life

2553
02:47:59,680 --> 02:48:02,680
was it and the sunshine meet up for everything. I mean,

2554
02:48:02,719 --> 02:48:05,040
that was kind of in some ways, that's like a

2555
02:48:05,120 --> 02:48:09,399
very English like backhanded compliment. In other ways. It's you know,

2556
02:48:09,600 --> 02:48:14,719
it's it's a very on and those suggestion that you know,

2557
02:48:14,799 --> 02:48:18,159
Spain was just remained a backwater, you know. I mean

2558
02:48:18,200 --> 02:48:22,440
I realized there was a Spanish miracle and uh, you know,

2559
02:48:22,559 --> 02:48:25,600
conspiracy conspiracy minded types like say like oh that was

2560
02:48:25,680 --> 02:48:28,799
Opus Day, you know, laundering money through Spain under rouspices

2561
02:48:28,840 --> 02:48:31,319
of economic development. I don't even I don't have any

2562
02:48:31,319 --> 02:48:31,840
opinion on that.

2563
02:48:32,000 --> 02:48:32,319
Speaker 1: I don't.

2564
02:48:33,000 --> 02:48:36,280
Speaker 2: I don't get into interesting Catholic fights and I'm not

2565
02:48:36,319 --> 02:48:39,200
as biggest I don't. I don't tear down the Catholic Church,

2566
02:48:39,319 --> 02:48:44,600
you know, at every opportunity like some revisionists do. Quite

2567
02:48:44,639 --> 02:48:48,399
the contrary. But regardless of anyone's feelings on that, I mean,

2568
02:48:48,600 --> 02:48:51,159
Spain was not exactly lighting the world on fire, okay,

2569
02:48:51,319 --> 02:48:53,639
like in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies, you know

2570
02:48:53,760 --> 02:49:01,159
it it Uh, it remained kind of an splendid, splendid isolation,

2571
02:49:01,280 --> 02:49:03,440
and it was I think about almost as kind of

2572
02:49:03,440 --> 02:49:05,879
like a right wing version of of like the Tito model,

2573
02:49:05,920 --> 02:49:09,200
you know, like obviously like there there wasn't I mean

2574
02:49:09,280 --> 02:49:12,239
that there. I realized that Spain's you know, had and

2575
02:49:12,360 --> 02:49:15,799
has like you know, violence, separatist movements and it's ethnically diverse,

2576
02:49:15,879 --> 02:49:18,159
but you know, obviously it's it's nothing like the hostility

2577
02:49:18,239 --> 02:49:23,159
between between populations like in the Balkans. But you know,

2578
02:49:23,280 --> 02:49:26,120
Tito's whole notion was to keep you know, just kind

2579
02:49:26,120 --> 02:49:28,399
of keep things frozen and keep this kind of quarantine

2580
02:49:28,399 --> 02:49:33,159
almost like prophylactic armor like over you know, the the

2581
02:49:34,799 --> 02:49:37,799
nation of the constituted Yugoslavia like contrivance as it may

2582
02:49:37,879 --> 02:49:39,840
have been as a state. You know, kept the Soviet

2583
02:49:39,879 --> 02:49:42,600
Union out, it kept America out, it kept everybody out,

2584
02:49:42,719 --> 02:49:46,520
you know, kept the Germans out, the Bundesler and even

2585
02:49:47,079 --> 02:49:50,559
even Germany was very much tethered to the Balkans and

2586
02:49:50,799 --> 02:49:53,000
not in geostrategic terms, you know, as we taught about before.

2587
02:49:53,040 --> 02:49:56,559
It's why Helmet Cole immediately recognized two Germon's independent Croatia.

2588
02:49:57,600 --> 02:50:00,719
But the point is, uh, such that Franco published anything.

2589
02:50:00,760 --> 02:50:05,000
I mean, he basically yeah, he basically just uh you know,

2590
02:50:05,079 --> 02:50:08,360
he he basically just just just put Spain under lock

2591
02:50:08,440 --> 02:50:11,120
and key, like you know, in every conceivable sense, like

2592
02:50:11,200 --> 02:50:15,440
figuratively and literally. But again that's not that doesn't generate

2593
02:50:15,479 --> 02:50:24,319
anything sustainable. So what what uh what exactly happened between

2594
02:50:25,280 --> 02:50:32,440
Germany and Spain. Ribbon Troup was, you know, as foreign

2595
02:50:32,479 --> 02:50:40,120
minister was primarily charged with finessing the Franco regime, you know,

2596
02:50:40,239 --> 02:50:41,319
to join the war effort.

2597
02:50:44,559 --> 02:50:49,520
Speaker 1: It uh, And can ask a question before you is

2598
02:50:49,559 --> 02:50:53,399
this this this is something that people would ask were

2599
02:50:53,440 --> 02:50:57,000
they in any kind of shape to join? I mean

2600
02:50:57,280 --> 02:51:00,159
they just went through three at three at a half

2601
02:51:00,239 --> 02:51:00,920
years of hell.

2602
02:51:02,840 --> 02:51:05,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we're going to get into that. Like Franco had,

2603
02:51:06,319 --> 02:51:09,639
Franco had a list quite literally ever increasing material demands,

2604
02:51:09,799 --> 02:51:13,760
both material and political demands that had to be met

2605
02:51:13,920 --> 02:51:17,879
for Spain to join the war effort. Owing to that

2606
02:51:19,239 --> 02:51:25,000
very reality, however, it fairly quickly became clear that he

2607
02:51:25,159 --> 02:51:29,200
was not negotiating in good faith. You know. The the

2608
02:51:29,719 --> 02:51:31,520
the extent of these demands was such that they just

2609
02:51:31,600 --> 02:51:33,280
they could not be met, you know, and that was

2610
02:51:33,319 --> 02:51:35,680
the whole point. But we'll get into that in a minute.

2611
02:51:36,360 --> 02:51:42,399
But what what the Reich needed the Spain? The Reich needed.

2612
02:51:43,840 --> 02:51:48,399
The Reich needed unconditional access to Gibraltar. The Reich needed

2613
02:51:48,440 --> 02:51:52,639
the Spanish to join in Africa and abandon you know,

2614
02:51:52,760 --> 02:51:57,479
the uh, the uh, the uncompromising claims that were making

2615
02:51:57,600 --> 02:52:03,319
on French Africa as well, particularly not exclusively Morocco. Finally,

2616
02:52:05,000 --> 02:52:08,559
Spain basically needed to need to do avail itself as

2617
02:52:08,799 --> 02:52:11,959
as as part of fortress Europe as uh, you know

2618
02:52:12,120 --> 02:52:16,000
France said had done admittedly like post defeat, and France

2619
02:52:16,040 --> 02:52:18,799
plays into this equation more than people might think. Okay,

2620
02:52:18,959 --> 02:52:22,760
the uh France and Germany, despite what people claim, like

2621
02:52:23,280 --> 02:52:25,920
there was not like VC France and then free France.

2622
02:52:26,079 --> 02:52:32,200
I mean it's uh. Obviously the gaull was uh, you know,

2623
02:52:32,280 --> 02:52:35,239
the Allies were suggesting that you know de Gaul was

2624
02:52:35,280 --> 02:52:39,399
the true like you know, French president in exile and

2625
02:52:39,520 --> 02:52:43,799
that you know, Petend's regime was illegitimate. But Petend was

2626
02:52:43,879 --> 02:52:48,200
literally a national hero, okay, and the French accepted the

2627
02:52:48,280 --> 02:52:52,799
fact that they were defeated. You know, I posted up

2628
02:52:52,840 --> 02:52:54,840
the other week or the other day of my timeline

2629
02:52:57,239 --> 02:53:00,280
footage of uh, you know, the Germans like you know

2630
02:53:01,280 --> 02:53:06,079
allowing uh, allowing the defeated French like full honors and

2631
02:53:06,360 --> 02:53:08,520
allowing to like march past you know, the Wehrmacht like

2632
02:53:08,600 --> 02:53:11,040
as they were like saluted, you know, in in full

2633
02:53:11,120 --> 02:53:13,399
regalia and everything. I mean, this was very much like

2634
02:53:13,440 --> 02:53:18,079
a Westphalian paradigm at work. Okay, you know this idea

2635
02:53:18,200 --> 02:53:20,760
that you know, France has hated Germany with this kind

2636
02:53:20,799 --> 02:53:23,360
of like hell bent passion, and you know the Vschi

2637
02:53:23,479 --> 02:53:26,520
regime was was was completely contrived and was a fiction

2638
02:53:26,719 --> 02:53:32,200
like that's not true. And furthermore, the British immediately uh

2639
02:53:32,879 --> 02:53:38,440
began attacking French forces in Africa. You know, they killed

2640
02:53:38,479 --> 02:53:41,719
thousands of people, you know, not French touristsmen, civilians. I mean,

2641
02:53:41,719 --> 02:53:47,079
we'll get into that too. But essentially, what the Reich

2642
02:53:47,200 --> 02:53:51,600
needed in the West, they needed France and Spain and

2643
02:53:51,719 --> 02:53:57,479
somehow come to terms, you know, on sovereign claims in Africa.

2644
02:53:58,840 --> 02:54:03,879
Spain had to you know, cooperate operationally and politically with

2645
02:54:04,200 --> 02:54:09,559
you know, a Gibraltar operation, and you know, Spain had

2646
02:54:09,600 --> 02:54:13,920
to fortify and you know, prepare for prepared to resist

2647
02:54:14,200 --> 02:54:21,680
any Anglo American assault a Spanish or Portuguese coastal soil

2648
02:54:24,840 --> 02:54:29,280
and those those you know, those were basically like what

2649
02:54:31,280 --> 02:54:35,799
the fears and ambitions were. But even in as things

2650
02:54:35,879 --> 02:54:39,559
had developed, I mean with respect to you know, the

2651
02:54:39,639 --> 02:54:43,799
pattern of hostilities between combatants, you know, regardless of ideology,

2652
02:54:43,920 --> 02:54:45,440
because you know, the war in the West was very

2653
02:54:45,520 --> 02:54:47,399
different than the war in the East. There were certain

2654
02:54:47,440 --> 02:54:54,200
complexities present there, even in purely geostrategic terms. This what

2655
02:54:54,360 --> 02:54:56,760
I just outlined is what would have what would have

2656
02:54:56,799 --> 02:55:04,760
been required. Okay, you know, uhwithstanding the idiosyncracies actually were

2657
02:55:04,799 --> 02:55:08,600
perceived of, you know, the respective regimes in place and

2658
02:55:09,920 --> 02:55:17,440
in VC, in Berlin and in Madrid. It uh. On

2659
02:55:20,399 --> 02:55:27,239
September nineteen forty was uh. When Hitler first directed Ribbon Traump,

2660
02:55:27,479 --> 02:55:31,280
you know, to push as hard as he could for

2661
02:55:31,360 --> 02:55:34,920
the Spanish to cooperate with you know, Gibraltar offensive and

2662
02:55:35,000 --> 02:55:36,799
to you know, encourage him to join what he called

2663
02:55:36,840 --> 02:55:42,000
the Grand Coalition. Hitler said to Ribin Trump and on

2664
02:55:42,120 --> 02:55:46,040
certain terms, every aspirant would have to be left in

2665
02:55:46,079 --> 02:55:49,120
the quote heavy belief that his wishes would be largely fulfilled.

2666
02:55:50,799 --> 02:55:53,559
Rybind Trump wrote in his own notes that to accomplish

2667
02:55:53,600 --> 02:55:57,159
this would require quote fraud on a grand scale. Raymond

2668
02:55:57,159 --> 02:55:59,440
Trupp wasn't saying like, oh, Hitler, you know was a

2669
02:56:00,200 --> 02:56:03,000
was was you know, anticipating, you know, perpetuating such a fraud.

2670
02:56:03,319 --> 02:56:05,319
Like what he was saying was that Hitler's dreaming because

2671
02:56:05,360 --> 02:56:08,079
this can't be realized going to the going to the

2672
02:56:08,159 --> 02:56:14,520
unwillingness of the of the the parties to the you know,

2673
02:56:18,399 --> 02:56:20,319
to you know, to the situation, you know, and their

2674
02:56:20,479 --> 02:56:25,520
and their unwillingness to you know, compromise on on issues

2675
02:56:25,559 --> 02:56:28,040
that might appear to be of secondary importance from you know,

2676
02:56:28,120 --> 02:56:30,600
where Hitler was sitting in Berlin, but you know, was

2677
02:56:31,200 --> 02:56:38,639
of paramount importance too, you know, to them, and looking

2678
02:56:38,680 --> 02:56:40,760
at it too, like it wasn't just a prestige thing

2679
02:56:41,159 --> 02:56:44,280
what Spain and France were looking at in Africa. I

2680
02:56:44,360 --> 02:56:50,280
mean these particularly with the you know, the uh, the

2681
02:56:50,360 --> 02:57:00,520
realization of strategic airpower, but for yeh uh, these were

2682
02:57:00,600 --> 02:57:03,440
extent matters of of of security, you know, to the

2683
02:57:03,879 --> 02:57:08,319
states that order the Mediterranean. So I mean that that

2684
02:57:08,440 --> 02:57:10,719
should be that should be clear. And plus two they

2685
02:57:11,079 --> 02:57:13,760
you know, the Spain in France were not. There wasn't

2686
02:57:13,799 --> 02:57:16,120
the there wasn't the ongoing you know kind of enmity

2687
02:57:16,319 --> 02:57:18,040
you know, only kind of the tragedy of your strategic

2688
02:57:18,120 --> 02:57:20,399
situation that there was between Germany and France. But France

2689
02:57:20,440 --> 02:57:23,680
and Spain weren't weren't natural allies by any means, you know,

2690
02:57:23,879 --> 02:57:25,280
It's not it's not as if there's some sort of

2691
02:57:25,440 --> 02:57:28,159
you know, common bond owing to you know, Latin heritage

2692
02:57:28,239 --> 02:57:31,399
and the Roman Church or something. It did it Really

2693
02:57:31,520 --> 02:57:35,559
it was just absence, even between Portugal, even between sales

2694
02:57:35,559 --> 02:57:38,440
there's Portugal and Franco Spain. I mean that didn't exist,

2695
02:57:38,639 --> 02:57:42,959
you know, I mean it wasn't That might seem strange

2696
02:57:43,000 --> 02:57:44,760
on some level to people who live, you know, in

2697
02:57:44,920 --> 02:57:47,360
kind of the globalized twenty first century, but at the

2698
02:57:47,479 --> 02:57:54,760
same time, like it doesn't you know, Europe, a lot

2699
02:57:54,799 --> 02:57:56,520
of these a lot of these political cultures were still

2700
02:57:56,600 --> 02:58:00,159
mired and kind of like the Warring States period, know,

2701
02:58:00,680 --> 02:58:05,600
which endured in Europe until nineteen fourteen. I mean, you know,

2702
02:58:07,559 --> 02:58:08,959
in a and not you know, in a in a

2703
02:58:09,000 --> 02:58:13,120
real sense, and I'm talking about abstract Postuletz here something.

2704
02:58:13,120 --> 02:58:14,920
There's that to keep in mind too. Even a Franco

2705
02:58:15,120 --> 02:58:18,559
was more worldly and even at the tend was you know,

2706
02:58:18,639 --> 02:58:22,280
a younger man and not you know, this kind of

2707
02:58:22,360 --> 02:58:29,200
inflexible you know, octogenarian Field Marshal I. I don't think

2708
02:58:30,159 --> 02:58:34,200
it would have been any easier to accommodate, you know,

2709
02:58:34,319 --> 02:58:41,280
these kind of competing egos and demands. The uh what

2710
02:58:41,440 --> 02:58:47,719
Hitler's plan was at the Berghoff, you know, he his

2711
02:58:47,879 --> 02:58:51,959
timetable was this, he was going to contact a former

2712
02:58:52,000 --> 02:58:57,280
French ambassador, Poncet or Poncet, who Hitler had always had

2713
02:58:57,280 --> 02:59:01,959
a good rapport with. He was gonna feel him out

2714
02:59:02,040 --> 02:59:04,840
about a personal meeting with the ten and basically use

2715
02:59:04,920 --> 02:59:10,360
him as kind of like his unofficial emissary. He would

2716
02:59:10,399 --> 02:59:12,559
go to visit to Ten. He would make his pitch

2717
02:59:12,639 --> 02:59:19,319
to pertain that, you know, the United Kingdom, regardless of

2718
02:59:19,319 --> 02:59:20,879
the outcome of this war, is going to leave France

2719
02:59:20,959 --> 02:59:28,319
out to dry. You know, they've humiliated they've they've humiliated France,

2720
02:59:28,399 --> 02:59:32,520
not just at the car but also by you know,

2721
02:59:32,799 --> 02:59:42,959
assaulting and sinking. It's a navy in UH Algeria. You know,

2722
02:59:43,079 --> 02:59:46,280
it's it's you. You have to accept the situation as

2723
02:59:46,319 --> 02:59:48,719
it is that you know, France and London are at war,

2724
02:59:48,920 --> 02:59:53,959
and you know Germany is really, uh the only port

2725
02:59:54,000 --> 02:59:58,159
you have in a storm. And once he got a

2726
02:59:58,840 --> 03:00:01,959
war guaranty from Patent, he would take that to Franco

2727
03:00:03,479 --> 03:00:10,680
and UH ask Franco to advocate, if not moderate Madrid's

2728
03:00:10,719 --> 03:00:14,120
demands to Morocco. Take that to pretend and use that

2729
03:00:14,120 --> 03:00:19,360
as the basis for future collaboration, which seems somewhat hair brained,

2730
03:00:19,479 --> 03:00:22,520
but again a lot of what Hitler got done was

2731
03:00:22,639 --> 03:00:25,000
based on personal relationships and the fact that he was

2732
03:00:25,040 --> 03:00:29,680
able to finesse these relationships into actual policy commitments. Something

2733
03:00:29,719 --> 03:00:33,280
this precedent for this and what Hitler had accomplished in

2734
03:00:33,360 --> 03:00:40,239
the proceeding, you know, several years, including after September nineteen

2735
03:00:40,239 --> 03:00:42,520
thirty nine, you know, so this was not just a

2736
03:00:42,600 --> 03:00:45,959
pipe dream, and people can't just dismiss it out right

2737
03:00:46,000 --> 03:00:48,440
as oh, you know, that was just Hitler being crazy,

2738
03:00:48,440 --> 03:00:51,719
because everyone knows Hitler and crazy, you know, after after

2739
03:00:53,120 --> 03:00:56,159
you know, the Battle of Moscow or something or whatever

2740
03:00:56,200 --> 03:01:03,799
they like to say. But Hitler interestingly too Pierre Laval,

2741
03:01:04,680 --> 03:01:09,719
who was uh the Prime Minister of France, he ended

2742
03:01:09,799 --> 03:01:11,280
up being the prime minister of nineteen forty two to

2743
03:01:11,399 --> 03:01:14,799
forty four, April forty two to August forty four, you know,

2744
03:01:14,799 --> 03:01:17,719
and he'd served previously in the in the same role

2745
03:01:17,799 --> 03:01:21,959
in the Third Republic from thirty one to thirty two,

2746
03:01:22,079 --> 03:01:24,440
and then I think from ninety thirty five to thirty

2747
03:01:24,440 --> 03:01:28,520
six thirty seven. So again that and Hitler and Laval

2748
03:01:28,879 --> 03:01:33,399
had had a basic rapport or their respective liaisons, did

2749
03:01:33,639 --> 03:01:36,719
you know. But again I raised this because it becomes

2750
03:01:36,760 --> 03:01:40,639
somewhat significant later. But it's also like Laval again, he

2751
03:01:41,159 --> 03:01:43,799
he was serving you know, the quote VC government, which

2752
03:01:43,840 --> 03:01:47,000
supposedly was you know, this illegitimate regime. I mean, this

2753
03:01:47,120 --> 03:01:48,639
was not uncommon. I mean, he was one of the

2754
03:01:48,719 --> 03:01:51,920
most he was one of the more prominent you know,

2755
03:01:52,040 --> 03:02:02,280
cabinet ministers who it's off in the same role that

2756
03:02:02,319 --> 03:02:04,319
he had before. It's like the idea this was just

2757
03:02:04,360 --> 03:02:06,120
some kind of like you know, client regime that you

2758
03:02:06,159 --> 03:02:09,239
know had no kind of like organic legitimacy or something

2759
03:02:09,319 --> 03:02:18,200
is nonsense. But Hitler, uh, Hitler sent out feelers to

2760
03:02:18,319 --> 03:02:25,799
Laval as well for the purpose of h and Laval

2761
03:02:25,840 --> 03:02:28,639
didn't have any formal office at this point, for for

2762
03:02:28,719 --> 03:02:32,760
the purpose of getting a personal audience with Pretent, which

2763
03:02:32,840 --> 03:02:37,840
was no easy thing. And again, you know, it tells

2764
03:02:37,879 --> 03:02:41,000
you too like Hitler's approaching Patent, you know, carefully, and

2765
03:02:41,079 --> 03:02:43,639
he's treating him with all the honor and respect of

2766
03:02:43,719 --> 03:02:46,879
a field marshal. But also as you know, with sovereign

2767
03:02:46,959 --> 03:02:49,040
had a state, you know, I mean, like think about this,

2768
03:02:49,159 --> 03:02:54,920
and especially Hitler, who was definitely more kind of cultured

2769
03:02:55,159 --> 03:03:01,000
and diplomatically cautious than people allege, but who is not exactly.

2770
03:03:01,600 --> 03:03:05,879
You know, a man who favored for nests over or action,

2771
03:03:06,120 --> 03:03:08,639
sometimes brute action and the threat of it. You know,

2772
03:03:08,719 --> 03:03:12,559
it's like if the VC regime is this completely artificial regime,

2773
03:03:12,760 --> 03:03:15,280
Like why isn't a Hitler just directing the Tan to

2774
03:03:15,360 --> 03:03:18,719
do whatever he orders? You know? I mean it's that

2775
03:03:19,079 --> 03:03:22,000
right there. I mean kind of shoots the pieces the

2776
03:03:23,239 --> 03:03:26,440
narrative of you know, VC being artificial or you know,

2777
03:03:27,079 --> 03:03:31,239
France just either like not existing after you know, censation

2778
03:03:31,319 --> 03:03:34,079
of hostilities in nineteen forty, or you know, being this

2779
03:03:34,239 --> 03:03:41,680
just completely astro turf like artificial edifice, you know. And

2780
03:03:42,120 --> 03:03:44,319
I bring it up to people again and again, and.

2781
03:03:45,639 --> 03:03:48,440
Speaker 1: I mean he went you went over in the World

2782
03:03:48,479 --> 03:03:53,399
War two series that when American troops landed in Africa,

2783
03:03:53,440 --> 03:03:55,520
who were the first people firing upon them?

2784
03:03:55,840 --> 03:03:57,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? It was the French and it was well it's

2785
03:03:57,760 --> 03:04:01,760
old too. Yeah. I mean Darlan, who was the you know,

2786
03:04:01,840 --> 03:04:05,520
who was the Martinette or I don't even know what

2787
03:04:05,559 --> 03:04:08,079
you'd call him, procurator, you know, maybe I mean he

2788
03:04:08,159 --> 03:04:12,200
was the military leader of a French Africa And yeah,

2789
03:04:12,520 --> 03:04:18,360
he Darlan considered VC to be the legitimate government of France.

2790
03:04:18,559 --> 03:04:21,000
And he considered France to be at war with the

2791
03:04:21,079 --> 03:04:23,680
United States of America. So yeah, I mean it doesn't,

2792
03:04:25,239 --> 03:04:28,079
it doesn't. Yeah, you got you gotta look at France

2793
03:04:28,120 --> 03:04:31,159
as one of these not obviously they were not formally

2794
03:04:33,120 --> 03:04:35,040
part of the access to alliance and there wasn't that

2795
03:04:35,200 --> 03:04:37,680
kind of command and control integration, you know that uh,

2796
03:04:38,520 --> 03:04:41,440
you know, such was the case with you know, like Romania,

2797
03:04:41,840 --> 03:04:47,879
but or Italy. But they definitely were on the side

2798
03:04:47,920 --> 03:04:50,760
of the axis where the rubber I'm at the road

2799
03:04:50,840 --> 03:04:54,680
and the key theater of engagement such that you know,

2800
03:04:54,840 --> 03:04:58,680
France was still capable of projecting power to protect its

2801
03:04:58,920 --> 03:05:02,040
its core interests. And yeah, exactly that was in that

2802
03:05:02,159 --> 03:05:08,920
was in Africa. Now, what did Laval say in his

2803
03:05:09,079 --> 03:05:13,799
uh response to Hitler? This very much emboldened to Hitler

2804
03:05:14,799 --> 03:05:18,920
with respect to you know, his Mediterranean strategy and his

2805
03:05:19,079 --> 03:05:21,680
ultimate goal of you know, bringing Frank go into the

2806
03:05:21,760 --> 03:05:25,600
fold after his name with the ten like Laval said,

2807
03:05:26,000 --> 03:05:30,719
you know, Britain that dragged France into an unwanted war

2808
03:05:31,319 --> 03:05:36,239
then abandoned her, you know then you know, made war honor,

2809
03:05:36,479 --> 03:05:39,799
smirching her honor and killing her people at marsl Kabur

2810
03:05:40,840 --> 03:05:44,159
I breationed catapult. That was July ninety forty, that's where

2811
03:05:44,600 --> 03:05:49,639
the British assault and destroyed the French fleet, killing over

2812
03:05:49,719 --> 03:05:54,639
twelve hundred people like French servicemen and civilians. And then

2813
03:05:54,680 --> 03:05:58,360
more recently in September as we in the as we

2814
03:05:58,479 --> 03:06:01,799
mentioned in the port of the car in French West Africa,

2815
03:06:02,760 --> 03:06:07,040
and again several hundred, uh, not just servicemen, but but

2816
03:06:07,239 --> 03:06:11,200
French civilians were killed. But the but French force is held,

2817
03:06:11,799 --> 03:06:19,280
you know, and Lavelle promised, uh to return, you know,

2818
03:06:19,399 --> 03:06:21,879
to see this, you know, to seek audience with the

2819
03:06:21,959 --> 03:06:25,000
ten and uh, you know, return of the answer in

2820
03:06:25,040 --> 03:06:30,319
two days time. And uh that's uh, that's exactly what

2821
03:06:30,440 --> 03:06:43,079
he did. October twenty third, Hitler believed ninety forty two

2822
03:06:43,159 --> 03:06:49,639
days subsequent, Hitler believed that Franco's willingness would absolutely depend

2823
03:06:49,719 --> 03:06:54,360
on the tenor of uh of of of the approach

2824
03:06:56,079 --> 03:07:07,000
ten that uh like what is like, what is meant

2825
03:07:07,040 --> 03:07:13,600
by that is that Spain at least had to have

2826
03:07:13,959 --> 03:07:16,879
they had to believe at least that Hitler was advocating

2827
03:07:17,680 --> 03:07:21,200
for the legitimacy their claims in Africa and the Mediterranean

2828
03:07:21,920 --> 03:07:24,760
and treating Spain like something of a great something, of

2829
03:07:24,840 --> 03:07:28,200
a great power, like however preposterous that might seem. And

2830
03:07:28,239 --> 03:07:30,920
I think in that regard, like Hitler had Franco's number,

2831
03:07:33,000 --> 03:07:35,719
and it wasn't just uh, it wasn't just for sake

2832
03:07:35,760 --> 03:07:38,760
of appearances, like the way you know it was. It

2833
03:07:38,840 --> 03:07:42,200
wasn't just like some people speculate. And I mean Franco

2834
03:07:42,360 --> 03:07:44,399
was a limited guy and and and kind of a

2835
03:07:44,479 --> 03:07:47,639
buffoon like a lot of people I've read it speculated

2836
03:07:47,760 --> 03:07:50,600
like well, you know this was only for domestic you know, consumption,

2837
03:07:51,520 --> 03:07:54,440
because Franco didn't have an actual mandate anyway other than

2838
03:07:54,479 --> 03:07:57,200
from this kind of coterie of officers and you know,

2839
03:07:58,639 --> 03:08:01,719
and uh and full who are who are a minority

2840
03:08:01,760 --> 03:08:03,440
within the party, I might add, you know who kind

2841
03:08:03,479 --> 03:08:06,840
of agreed to cooperate every sensation of hostilities. I don't

2842
03:08:06,840 --> 03:08:09,799
believe it to be true at all. I think, uh,

2843
03:08:10,159 --> 03:08:11,959
as time went on and as we're Gettato and as

2844
03:08:12,000 --> 03:08:15,639
I mentioned this before we went live, Franco's demands were

2845
03:08:16,040 --> 03:08:19,040
deliberately like so up tos and so unreasonable that you

2846
03:08:19,120 --> 03:08:20,840
know it was it was kind of his way out

2847
03:08:20,959 --> 03:08:25,200
of joining the war. But these demands, like you know,

2848
03:08:25,600 --> 03:08:30,280
Franco's obsession with Morocco, you know him, you know, saying

2849
03:08:30,319 --> 03:08:34,319
you wanted like equality of status like in you know,

2850
03:08:34,559 --> 03:08:36,920
in terms of like maritime passage and the Mediterranean. Like

2851
03:08:36,959 --> 03:08:38,840
he meant all these things like on their own terms

2852
03:08:38,879 --> 03:08:43,000
like over stupid that might seem and he uh, he

2853
03:08:43,239 --> 03:08:46,600
actually viewed Spain as some like serious major power, you know,

2854
03:08:46,760 --> 03:08:50,840
and again like reposterous is that? Uh? As that might seem.

2855
03:08:53,040 --> 03:09:00,280
As it happened, Hitler met with uh. Hitler and the

2856
03:09:01,559 --> 03:09:08,079
Ribbin Troup and the diplomatic contingent was the diplomatic contingent

2857
03:09:08,200 --> 03:09:12,159
respective way of the Reich and of nationalist Spain met

2858
03:09:13,520 --> 03:09:20,399
before Hiller got his audience with the ten on October

2859
03:09:20,479 --> 03:09:25,040
twenty third, ninety forty. It was the in the frontier

2860
03:09:25,159 --> 03:09:29,520
town of Hindai, Hindi, France. I'm sure I'm butchering the pronunciation.

2861
03:09:34,879 --> 03:09:38,680
Hitler was president, obviously, Franco was president. So it was

2862
03:09:38,760 --> 03:09:41,680
von Ribin Troff, and so was Serrano. Sooner. Sooner was

2863
03:09:41,719 --> 03:09:46,760
the newly appointed foreign minister who was Soroano Soonor he

2864
03:09:46,879 --> 03:09:53,000
was Franko's brother in law. But more importantly, he was

2865
03:09:53,120 --> 03:09:57,239
president of the traditional of the quote traditionalist Spanish Felanx

2866
03:09:57,319 --> 03:09:59,840
and of the Councils of the National Cynical List Offensive.

2867
03:10:02,120 --> 03:10:05,600
What that was is that was the that was the

2868
03:10:05,719 --> 03:10:09,440
only legal party in Spain, and it was it had

2869
03:10:09,479 --> 03:10:11,719
come ab out by merger of the Palange and the

2870
03:10:11,840 --> 03:10:21,159
Integralist Catholic Traditionalist Union. Okay, part of the kind of

2871
03:10:21,239 --> 03:10:24,639
optics the Franco regime where they claim to both represent

2872
03:10:24,719 --> 03:10:28,159
the Church and represent the Falanges, which was a fiction

2873
03:10:28,280 --> 03:10:30,760
if anybody knows the history of these tendencies, and we'll

2874
03:10:30,760 --> 03:10:35,559
get into that next episode. And there was a revolt

2875
03:10:35,639 --> 03:10:42,879
of the Falange against uh against Franco's dictatorship, and that

2876
03:10:43,079 --> 03:10:47,360
ultimately the kind of the kind of enduring ripples of

2877
03:10:47,399 --> 03:10:51,680
that ultimately led to Sunaire's dismissal because Stonaire actually was

2878
03:10:51,760 --> 03:10:54,559
a dedicated Falangist, you know, and had he not been

2879
03:10:55,879 --> 03:10:59,000
related to the Cuddillo, he would not have found himself

2880
03:10:59,040 --> 03:11:03,360
in this role. And there's a cruel irony here too,

2881
03:11:03,479 --> 03:11:06,479
because the Acabam Ribbin Troup and surrounding soon there came

2882
03:11:06,600 --> 03:11:12,879
to quite literally hate one another, and they've had quite

2883
03:11:12,920 --> 03:11:17,479
a lot of contact during the Spanish Civil War and beyond,

2884
03:11:18,159 --> 03:11:20,719
and Ribbon Tromp was beside himself when soon Air was

2885
03:11:20,719 --> 03:11:29,239
appointed Foreign Minister and Ribbin Trump was uh the anniversary

2886
03:11:29,280 --> 03:11:31,799
of his death. I think it was last year when

2887
03:11:31,799 --> 03:11:33,959
the university was death rolled around. I remember talking on

2888
03:11:34,040 --> 03:11:37,399
Twitter and in some other on some other platforms with

2889
03:11:37,520 --> 03:11:40,600
people I asking me, I want my take on Ribin

2890
03:11:40,600 --> 03:11:44,120
Troup was there was some incredible diplomatic coups that Ribon

2891
03:11:44,159 --> 03:11:48,479
Trot pulled off, and he had some remarkable insights in

2892
03:11:48,920 --> 03:11:51,319
at key junctures. But at the end of the day,

2893
03:11:51,399 --> 03:11:59,200
he was an international businessman, okay, in businesses, a diplomats

2894
03:11:59,639 --> 03:12:04,079
and and uh, no matter what, the most prestige posting

2895
03:12:04,399 --> 03:12:06,920
before he became the Foreign Minister was his ambassador of

2896
03:12:06,920 --> 03:12:11,600
the United Kingdom. And no matter who had been in

2897
03:12:11,680 --> 03:12:14,600
that role, you know he would he wouldn't he wouldn't

2898
03:12:14,639 --> 03:12:17,879
have made any any headway, okay, because you know, for

2899
03:12:18,000 --> 03:12:20,280
reasons that should be obvious to anybody, but that we

2900
03:12:20,399 --> 03:12:28,920
covered extensively in our earlier series. But remend Tropp was

2901
03:12:28,920 --> 03:12:32,200
incapable of of of coming to terms with people who

2902
03:12:33,120 --> 03:12:37,600
he developed a relationship characterized a personal animus opposite. And

2903
03:12:37,680 --> 03:12:39,280
this is the case of soon Air And you know,

2904
03:12:39,319 --> 03:12:41,840
and like I said, sonor not only was he uh

2905
03:12:42,040 --> 03:12:46,959
a dedicated philangists, he was he was he was incredibly

2906
03:12:47,040 --> 03:12:56,680
pro axis. The previous September, the month prior UH Sooner

2907
03:12:56,840 --> 03:13:00,840
visited Berlin, he'd sought out and draw up at the

2908
03:13:00,920 --> 03:13:05,719
Foreign Ministry to discuss how Spain could enter the war

2909
03:13:05,799 --> 03:13:08,520
on the EXI side. Like now, mind you like, Sooner

2910
03:13:08,639 --> 03:13:12,559
knew that Franco was dragging his feet. He knew what

2911
03:13:12,680 --> 03:13:14,879
Hitler's demands were, and he knew that those demands were

2912
03:13:15,000 --> 03:13:20,000
sound and strategic as well as political terms. He also

2913
03:13:20,120 --> 03:13:24,319
knew that, you know, part of Franco's strategy, you would

2914
03:13:24,319 --> 03:13:28,040
be the issue demands that could would would not reasonably

2915
03:13:28,200 --> 03:13:31,959
be met either because you know, realistically, you know, forces

2916
03:13:32,000 --> 03:13:34,879
and being weren't there we're you know, and and and

2917
03:13:35,000 --> 03:13:43,079
those that were like that, you know, food stuffs, petroleum, weapons, aircraft,

2918
03:13:43,319 --> 03:13:47,520
you know that which was in being you know, Berlin

2919
03:13:47,559 --> 03:13:50,680
would never part with because it was an unconsortable demand.

2920
03:13:51,200 --> 03:13:54,200
But soon there honestly visited the Foreign Ministry in good

2921
03:13:54,280 --> 03:13:59,639
faith to try and realize terms by which uh, you know,

2922
03:14:00,879 --> 03:14:03,040
Franko would be painted into a corner in my belief,

2923
03:14:03,159 --> 03:14:06,159
in my opinion, you know, such that you know, the

2924
03:14:07,399 --> 03:14:10,799
the Reich would contribute, you know, everything that it possibly

2925
03:14:10,879 --> 03:14:17,479
could to facilitate Spain's entry into the war. So I

2926
03:14:17,520 --> 03:14:19,959
mean soon Air and ribbon Trup wanted the same things

2927
03:14:20,440 --> 03:14:26,760
and uh they uh they but they couldn't they, you

2928
03:14:26,840 --> 03:14:30,760
know that they couldn't overcome this this kind of personal animus.

2929
03:14:31,719 --> 03:14:35,040
What Ribbon Troup reported and Rybon Troup was something of

2930
03:14:35,120 --> 03:14:42,159
a haughty twuton of you know, a caricature sort. And

2931
03:14:42,559 --> 03:14:45,200
again that's another reason I think he should not have

2932
03:14:45,319 --> 03:14:48,440
been in the role that he was. But soon There

2933
03:14:48,600 --> 03:14:54,840
uh said that you know, Caudillo demands you know, all

2934
03:14:54,879 --> 03:14:58,159
of French, Morocco and Algeria, you know, for Laban's wrong.

2935
03:14:58,879 --> 03:15:02,200
But this could proble be finesse if you know, he

2936
03:15:02,360 --> 03:15:07,319
was offered Portugal because geographically speaking, in Sooner's words, Portugal

2937
03:15:07,360 --> 03:15:10,760
has no right to exist quote and this apparently outraged

2938
03:15:10,799 --> 03:15:12,719
Ribbon tro Up. You know, like, who the hell is

2939
03:15:12,760 --> 03:15:14,799
a spaindard think he is? You know, Spain is that

2940
03:15:14,959 --> 03:15:18,239
is a shit country. It's you know, he's talking like

2941
03:15:18,360 --> 03:15:20,959
he's you know, he's talking to me like we're peers.

2942
03:15:21,680 --> 03:15:24,639
And you can almost see like if you read about

2943
03:15:24,680 --> 03:15:28,399
these personages like you almost you almost like feel this

2944
03:15:28,559 --> 03:15:30,639
like outrage ribbon trop But I mean again, if you're

2945
03:15:30,639 --> 03:15:32,639
a diplomat, you've got to stay cool no matter what.

2946
03:15:33,600 --> 03:15:37,280
But again, part of the tragedy of this is that

2947
03:15:37,360 --> 03:15:39,200
a man like soon Air but I think it was

2948
03:15:39,239 --> 03:15:41,639
a real hero in a lot of ways. But you

2949
03:15:41,719 --> 03:15:45,399
know this, uh, this kind of a you know, this

2950
03:15:45,520 --> 03:15:48,520
this kind of self important, pompous Latin guy and uh,

2951
03:15:49,040 --> 03:15:51,719
this kind of you know, supremacist to time type like

2952
03:15:51,760 --> 03:15:53,680
people like that are gonna mix like oil and water,

2953
03:15:53,799 --> 03:15:59,760
you know. And you can just see just kind of

2954
03:15:59,799 --> 03:16:01,879
a like like the words jump off the page and

2955
03:16:02,319 --> 03:16:05,360
when when you read of this meeting, how you know,

2956
03:16:05,639 --> 03:16:12,200
just like what a disaster it must must must have been. Additionally,

2957
03:16:12,280 --> 03:16:16,520
Sarron wanted, he wanted, you want to guarantees of military

2958
03:16:16,559 --> 03:16:20,879
and economics support, you know, uh, immediately to like you know,

2959
03:16:20,959 --> 03:16:25,440
this wasn't he said, he wanted to go back to Madrid,

2960
03:16:25,559 --> 03:16:29,399
you know, with with the concrete offer of what you

2961
03:16:29,479 --> 03:16:33,879
know Hitler was willing to provide, you know, kind of

2962
03:16:33,920 --> 03:16:36,319
like down to the letter, you know, and uh, this

2963
03:16:36,520 --> 03:16:39,959
is not that's not the way that that's not that's

2964
03:16:40,000 --> 03:16:42,440
not the way diplomacy has done either. You know it

2965
03:16:44,959 --> 03:16:49,959
and uh this would be the cost again of of

2966
03:16:51,440 --> 03:16:55,760
you know, joining the war and specifically you know, immediately

2967
03:16:55,879 --> 03:17:05,799
planning for an operation. This apparently ymen Trot hit the

2968
03:17:05,879 --> 03:17:10,239
roof and he said that he'd approached the Fear and

2969
03:17:10,360 --> 03:17:16,879
talk about maybe letting uh Spain maintained territorial rights to

2970
03:17:17,120 --> 03:17:21,559
uh one of the Canary Islands, but that's it, you know.

2971
03:17:21,680 --> 03:17:24,360
He said that Spain's never going to have Morocco. That

2972
03:17:24,559 --> 03:17:26,600
you know, France is an essential ally and you're not.

2973
03:17:26,879 --> 03:17:33,239
You know this is paraphrase, you know, and uh, finally,

2974
03:17:33,360 --> 03:17:36,600
riymen Trop said that you know the aid you're gonna

2975
03:17:36,680 --> 03:17:40,520
get is you know, you're you're gonna become a dedicated

2976
03:17:40,840 --> 03:17:44,280
you know, destination for German manufacturers. You know, we're gonna

2977
03:17:44,319 --> 03:17:47,000
put your people to work, you know, as we see fit,

2978
03:17:47,200 --> 03:17:50,200
you know, to stay in the war economy. But you know,

2979
03:17:50,799 --> 03:17:53,559
basically you're a coolie, you know, go back. He basically

2980
03:17:53,559 --> 03:17:57,520
told him, like, go get his fucking shinebox. And you

2981
03:17:57,600 --> 03:18:01,000
know the uh he literally insulted him by you know,

2982
03:18:01,120 --> 03:18:03,479
not just portraying Spain as you know, like a future

2983
03:18:03,520 --> 03:18:06,200
satellite state, but as like a second rate one at

2984
03:18:06,280 --> 03:18:13,319
that as uh, this came as apparently a great shock

2985
03:18:13,399 --> 03:18:16,760
to soon error because it uh. I mean again, like

2986
03:18:16,879 --> 03:18:20,719
these guys weren't rib and Troup had done business in

2987
03:18:20,799 --> 03:18:25,280
America and like actually up until you know, the the

2988
03:18:25,399 --> 03:18:28,719
evil World War One and uh and then subsequent he'd

2989
03:18:28,760 --> 03:18:33,200
spent a lot of time in Canada, So I mean

2990
03:18:33,239 --> 03:18:36,680
he was worldly, but uh like not neither of these

2991
03:18:36,719 --> 03:18:41,040
men should have been negotiating anything of uh of of

2992
03:18:41,280 --> 03:18:43,360
of of the nature that they were charged with, you know,

2993
03:18:43,479 --> 03:18:51,040
like I Sigafreed Cash, I uh, sacred Cash wasn't a diplomat,

2994
03:18:51,159 --> 03:18:55,559
but he he was slated to be the gall lighter

2995
03:18:55,680 --> 03:18:59,920
of the Moscow UH Commissariat, you know, had it come

2996
03:19:00,079 --> 03:19:06,959
to fruition, and he uh he was. He was the

2997
03:19:07,040 --> 03:19:12,479
military liaison, uh to the Independent State of Croatia. I mean,

2998
03:19:12,520 --> 03:19:15,239
I just think he's an interesting guy. But I in

2999
03:19:15,399 --> 03:19:19,280
in counterfactual terms, I was thinking about that, like Sigrey Cash,

3000
03:19:19,440 --> 03:19:23,000
like should have been the man negotiating with Spain and

3001
03:19:23,280 --> 03:19:28,680
uh it should have been a man from the traditional uh,

3002
03:19:30,920 --> 03:19:34,120
from the traditional aristocracy of the church or the church

3003
03:19:34,280 --> 03:19:38,520
like negotiating with with Cash. You know. Again, it's a

3004
03:19:39,239 --> 03:19:41,719
it's it's it's a splendid example of two men who

3005
03:19:41,840 --> 03:19:45,040
basically agree on everything in terms of like ideology and politics,

3006
03:19:45,479 --> 03:19:47,760
who you know, could not agree on like what day

3007
03:19:47,799 --> 03:19:54,879
it was it uh, And it becomes Franco's private correspondence

3008
03:19:54,959 --> 03:19:58,520
to soon error, you know, and his telegrams to him,

3009
03:19:58,799 --> 03:20:02,440
but specifically like his private letters. So I mean, you

3010
03:20:02,600 --> 03:20:08,159
know that these were intendingly for Senator's eyes. He was

3011
03:20:08,280 --> 03:20:12,200
a he was a Franko's effusively praising Hitler as a

3012
03:20:12,280 --> 03:20:15,200
wise man, you know, and like a great man. And

3013
03:20:15,559 --> 03:20:17,879
you know he was dismissing Ribbond trow up as you

3014
03:20:17,920 --> 03:20:20,239
know Ribond Trump is, you know, he's a fool. He

3015
03:20:21,319 --> 03:20:23,840
he's uh, he feels to appreciate, you know, what we

3016
03:20:23,920 --> 03:20:26,840
can offer the axis and you know these kinds of things,

3017
03:20:27,559 --> 03:20:30,200
you know. So again it's and if it's some like

3018
03:20:30,319 --> 03:20:32,799
go to show you how essential to I mean, if

3019
03:20:32,840 --> 03:20:34,799
you're if you're ahead of state, particularly if you're a

3020
03:20:34,840 --> 03:20:37,120
world ord as Hitler was by this point, you've got

3021
03:20:37,159 --> 03:20:41,000
to be insulated. I mean not just for you know,

3022
03:20:41,319 --> 03:20:45,159
reasons of literal physical security, but you know, because every

3023
03:20:45,760 --> 03:20:47,760
anybody and everybody is going to be you know, trying

3024
03:20:47,799 --> 03:20:50,239
to sway your opinion and make demands on you and things.

3025
03:20:50,360 --> 03:20:52,639
I mean you just you know you you basically have

3026
03:20:52,719 --> 03:20:54,680
to communicate to liaison. But it was to show you,

3027
03:20:54,840 --> 03:20:57,280
like how how important it is that the man in

3028
03:20:57,680 --> 03:21:01,000
that role or in those roles you know, in in

3029
03:21:02,159 --> 03:21:06,639
discrete capacities, you know, really really have to you know,

3030
03:21:06,799 --> 03:21:09,360
be be able to check their ego at the door.

3031
03:21:09,799 --> 03:21:12,200
You know, if there's there was no reason why like this,

3032
03:21:12,479 --> 03:21:16,360
this could not have developed into a real you know,

3033
03:21:16,399 --> 03:21:23,600
a real strategic uh you know, alliance, you know, in

3034
03:21:23,719 --> 03:21:33,440
operational terms, I mean uh he uh. Even after when

3035
03:21:33,639 --> 03:21:39,479
a protege as soonerer, a guy named Pedro Gamero del Castillo,

3036
03:21:40,879 --> 03:21:46,520
uh in nineteen forty one January nineteen forty one, he

3037
03:21:46,639 --> 03:21:49,200
reached out to the press secretary of the German embassy

3038
03:21:49,280 --> 03:21:54,479
in Spain, hanslas Are, and he he begged them basically

3039
03:21:54,600 --> 03:22:01,520
he's like, look, you know, tell Berlin that a Serrano

3040
03:22:01,600 --> 03:22:04,399
snair government in other words, like Franco could be sidelined

3041
03:22:04,479 --> 03:22:08,639
or killed. You know, a Serrano snair government, you know,

3042
03:22:09,719 --> 03:22:11,000
with soon are at the helm and live with the

3043
03:22:11,040 --> 03:22:14,719
Cardillo would commit absolutely the access powers, you know, and

3044
03:22:16,319 --> 03:22:21,360
this is incredibly risky, you know, that he was, that

3045
03:22:21,479 --> 03:22:24,120
he was talking about these things in a basically above

3046
03:22:24,200 --> 03:22:29,479
board capacity with a German diplomatic representative. But I mean

3047
03:22:29,520 --> 03:22:31,559
it goes to show you Spain was a house divided.

3048
03:22:31,600 --> 03:22:33,479
And it goes to show you too how you know

3049
03:22:34,000 --> 03:22:36,840
that the true Falange like pro access element in Spain,

3050
03:22:37,079 --> 03:22:41,680
like we're holding out hope still that you know, Spain

3051
03:22:41,719 --> 03:22:45,840
would join the access as a you know, as a

3052
03:22:46,319 --> 03:22:56,280
as a full partner. It it's unclear whether Lizarre ever

3053
03:22:56,399 --> 03:23:00,440
reached Hitler or reached like the right chancery and if

3054
03:23:00,479 --> 03:23:05,719
he did, like what he said when it was said

3055
03:23:05,760 --> 03:23:10,719
to Hitler, when it was like not the not by

3056
03:23:12,559 --> 03:23:20,280
not by Castillo Bote, Hitler said, uh to Walter hewell

3057
03:23:20,920 --> 03:23:24,639
later on was uh he said that you know soon

3058
03:23:24,799 --> 03:23:28,559
eror and not, you know, trying harder and doing whatever

3059
03:23:28,639 --> 03:23:33,239
he could dissuay the Coddillo was quote the great vigger

3060
03:23:33,280 --> 03:23:37,200
of the New Spain. And uh, you know Hitler, the

3061
03:23:37,280 --> 03:23:41,600
man always who always took the long view. Whatever else

3062
03:23:41,639 --> 03:23:44,920
he canna say about him, you know, he realized more

3063
03:23:44,959 --> 03:23:49,360
than anybody that you know, Spain's fortunes were inextricably tethered

3064
03:23:49,399 --> 03:23:55,360
to Germany's. And if the axis went down, that that

3065
03:23:55,440 --> 03:23:57,799
was the end of Spain. You know, it didn't matter

3066
03:23:58,280 --> 03:24:01,239
that Franco was able to create his like you know

3067
03:24:01,719 --> 03:24:07,920
Garrison Uh. Uh, you know Disneyland, like fascist Disneyland for

3068
03:24:08,040 --> 03:24:12,200
thirty years subsequent that, you know, his lasting legacy that

3069
03:24:12,280 --> 03:24:20,360
of Franklin. I mean is amounts to exactly zero. Soon there,

3070
03:24:20,559 --> 03:24:25,239
uh and uh Castillo proposed they were the ones who

3071
03:24:25,280 --> 03:24:30,840
proposed the Blue Division, you know, after the honest of

3072
03:24:30,920 --> 03:24:35,959
hostilities with the Soviet Union. I'm June twenty second, ninety

3073
03:24:36,000 --> 03:24:40,239
forty one, and uh, you know it's clear that uh,

3074
03:24:41,159 --> 03:24:45,040
it's it's good as soon There realized the opportunity that

3075
03:24:45,120 --> 03:24:48,000
he'd missed or or or was coxing his own failure

3076
03:24:50,719 --> 03:24:56,600
two days after Barbarossa in June twenty there or twenty four,

3077
03:24:56,639 --> 03:25:00,120
I've seen it sighted as I've seen both citations of

3078
03:25:00,159 --> 03:25:06,319
the date. He Uh. He delivered a famous uh kind

3079
03:25:06,360 --> 03:25:10,159
of stump speech uh from the balcony of what had

3080
03:25:10,200 --> 03:25:17,239
been Phalange's party headquarters, called Russia is copabal forgive me

3081
03:25:17,639 --> 03:25:20,799
portuering Spanish, I don't speak Spanish at all, but translates

3082
03:25:20,799 --> 03:25:24,959
as Russia is guilty and it's essentially you know, uh

3083
03:25:26,520 --> 03:25:29,959
bellicose apologia for you know, why why why Spain needs

3084
03:25:30,000 --> 03:25:32,040
to join you know, the war effort where the flange

3085
03:25:32,120 --> 03:25:33,600
need to join the war effort, you know, like all

3086
03:25:33,760 --> 03:25:38,120
all true patriots need to slay that you deal Bolshevik beast.

3087
03:25:39,680 --> 03:25:42,159
You know. So he was, Uh he was. He was

3088
03:25:42,280 --> 03:25:46,959
like like many people, you know, like many great men.

3089
03:25:47,159 --> 03:25:49,639
You know, he was complicated. And again that's part of

3090
03:25:49,680 --> 03:25:53,479
the tragedy is that Serrano was basically a heroic type

3091
03:25:55,319 --> 03:25:57,959
and a great patriot, and you know, kind of circumstances

3092
03:25:58,000 --> 03:26:03,120
intervened to uh prevent him from realizing you know, what

3093
03:26:04,520 --> 03:26:06,959
he wanted to do. Uh accomplished for the sake of

3094
03:26:07,000 --> 03:26:11,680
Spain and you know, the national Socialist cause and everything else.

3095
03:26:14,040 --> 03:26:17,479
But back to forgive that, tangent I had to kind

3096
03:26:17,479 --> 03:26:20,959
of flesh out who soon there was, to make clear

3097
03:26:21,120 --> 03:26:23,959
like what the stakes were of the of the summit

3098
03:26:24,520 --> 03:26:29,079
between Hillar and Franco, but also you know, to kind

3099
03:26:29,079 --> 03:26:33,360
of understand, you know, how the personages directly engaged, you know,

3100
03:26:35,000 --> 03:26:42,159
determine the outcome of uh this negotiation. The basic object

3101
03:26:43,000 --> 03:26:48,559
was to resolve you know, outstanding disagreements uh over the

3102
03:26:48,760 --> 03:26:51,280
over over the conditions for Spain to join the Access

3103
03:26:51,319 --> 03:26:56,799
Powers in their war against ver Hi.

3104
03:27:00,120 --> 03:27:06,639
Speaker 1: Okay, Jimmy a favor. You cut out. You cut out

3105
03:27:06,719 --> 03:27:10,719
there when you when you first started what you were

3106
03:27:10,760 --> 03:27:13,319
going to say right now, you cut out like like

3107
03:27:13,520 --> 03:27:15,639
five seconds ago. Can you can you restart that?

3108
03:27:16,399 --> 03:27:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, No, it's the UH to bring it back

3109
03:27:19,920 --> 03:27:25,120
to the summit between you know, Hitler and Franco at

3110
03:27:25,760 --> 03:27:30,639
the object of that meeting. It was to resolve, you know,

3111
03:27:30,719 --> 03:27:34,479
the outstanding disagreements over over what conditions had to be

3112
03:27:34,559 --> 03:27:37,879
met for Spain to join the Axis Powers in the

3113
03:27:37,920 --> 03:27:41,920
war against the British Empire. Okay, because obviously, you know,

3114
03:27:42,520 --> 03:27:48,120
this is October nineteen forty, the German Reich in the

3115
03:27:48,159 --> 03:27:53,120
Soviet Union or not yet at war. Okay, France has

3116
03:27:53,159 --> 03:27:57,159
been soundly defeated. The British were defeated at you know two.

3117
03:27:57,440 --> 03:27:59,520
I mean, but you know, oning to the only to

3118
03:27:59,559 --> 03:28:02,200
the war at all costs crusade. You know, they're refusing

3119
03:28:02,239 --> 03:28:08,000
to negotiate, and uh, Hitler doesn't want to go through

3120
03:28:08,040 --> 03:28:10,079
a Sea Lion. I think Sea Lion was always a

3121
03:28:10,079 --> 03:28:15,520
strategic ruse. But that's another question. But the nail in

3122
03:28:15,600 --> 03:28:19,040
the coffin of the British Empire, you know, would be

3123
03:28:19,159 --> 03:28:21,760
the Seze chibralter. You know, the Royal Navy would then

3124
03:28:21,840 --> 03:28:27,879
be shut out of the Mediterranean. They'd lose Africa, you know,

3125
03:28:28,000 --> 03:28:32,680
they'd they'd be they they'd be they'd be a garrison,

3126
03:28:32,840 --> 03:28:37,760
uh state on their home islands, you know, and the

3127
03:28:39,000 --> 03:28:45,239
U boat fleet could do the rest. Really Okay, the

3128
03:28:45,360 --> 03:28:52,200
meeting endured for seven hours. Uh. The Spanish wouldn't waiver

3129
03:28:52,639 --> 03:28:57,959
in there. Rather, Franco wouldn't waiver in Uh. Demands that

3130
03:28:58,079 --> 03:29:04,360
Hitler described as extraor his demands were. Franco's demands were

3131
03:29:04,840 --> 03:29:07,520
the handing over of Gibraltar to Spain once the British

3132
03:29:07,559 --> 03:29:12,399
were defeated. Uh this you know, the seating of French

3133
03:29:12,520 --> 03:29:18,200
Morocco and part of French Algeria to Spain. The attachment

3134
03:29:18,440 --> 03:29:22,280
of French Cameroon to the Spanish colony of Guinea. So basically,

3135
03:29:22,440 --> 03:29:28,319
you know, French Africa becomes Spanish afriga Okay, and finally

3136
03:29:30,840 --> 03:29:36,360
German supplies of food, petrol, arms and ammunition, uh as needed,

3137
03:29:36,680 --> 03:29:40,399
you know, to relieve the critical economic and military situation

3138
03:29:40,959 --> 03:29:43,959
to your point faced by Spain after the Civil War,

3139
03:29:46,440 --> 03:29:49,319
and you know, and subsequently as needed, you know, for

3140
03:29:49,520 --> 03:29:58,200
long term development. Now, Hitler couldn't disturb relations with with

3141
03:29:58,479 --> 03:30:00,959
with France, Okay. I mean we just talked about that

3142
03:30:01,079 --> 03:30:06,440
was the key that was really the key to you know,

3143
03:30:07,639 --> 03:30:12,520
victory in the West. Okay, the key that the key

3144
03:30:12,600 --> 03:30:15,559
to n SIG was the defeat of the Soviet Union.

3145
03:30:15,840 --> 03:30:22,799
But you know, the Barbarossa hasn't happened yet, and ideally,

3146
03:30:24,159 --> 03:30:25,760
you know, if the war in the West can be won,

3147
03:30:26,280 --> 03:30:30,520
uh First, I mean that's obviously ideal, even if this

3148
03:30:30,680 --> 03:30:34,040
was always a secondary theater and you know, a war

3149
03:30:34,159 --> 03:30:36,479
that the Germans did not want to fight, vise of

3150
03:30:36,559 --> 03:30:42,280
the UK and you know, the Mediterranean and northern Africa.

3151
03:30:43,159 --> 03:30:46,520
But the strategic landscape is what it is, Okay, something

3152
03:30:46,520 --> 03:30:55,200
that's important that doesn't nullify uh, you know RHS Stofle's claim,

3153
03:30:55,680 --> 03:30:59,079
and I mean Hitler's notion, I mean the notion of

3154
03:30:59,159 --> 03:31:03,120
Hitler himself that you know, the like final like final

3155
03:31:03,239 --> 03:31:07,000
victory is conquering is when Moscow falls. Okay, But I

3156
03:31:07,120 --> 03:31:12,719
just wanted to reiterate that for clarity. But uh, the

3157
03:31:12,840 --> 03:31:20,559
only way that this uh, the only way that this

3158
03:31:20,799 --> 03:31:26,840
uh that this alliance, uh that this Mediterranean alliance can

3159
03:31:26,959 --> 03:31:30,479
work is like like France as the lynchmin Okay, for reasons,

3160
03:31:30,520 --> 03:31:36,040
wheready discussed Franco is making that impossible for you know,

3161
03:31:36,159 --> 03:31:38,760
for for France to come to terms based on what

3162
03:31:39,120 --> 03:31:45,559
he is demanding. And Hillar was beside himself. But also

3163
03:31:45,680 --> 03:31:48,799
he just didn't he he didn't understand the abject uh

3164
03:31:50,399 --> 03:31:56,399
you know, kind of stubbornness. I mean he he's never

3165
03:31:58,479 --> 03:32:01,879
really sabotage the proceed and I believe that's true. Uh

3166
03:32:02,440 --> 03:32:04,719
said in Mussolini that he would rather have three or

3167
03:32:04,719 --> 03:32:07,760
four teeth extracted than go through that again, that being

3168
03:32:07,840 --> 03:32:14,360
negotiation or attempted negotiation with Franco soon there, who was

3169
03:32:14,440 --> 03:32:18,479
again he was uh not habituated to being a diplomat

3170
03:32:19,319 --> 03:32:22,719
and uh he was apparently something of a boisterous, you know,

3171
03:32:22,799 --> 03:32:26,000
an impassionate person and a military man as as well

3172
03:32:26,040 --> 03:32:32,840
as a you know, a revolutionary type. He uh he

3173
03:32:32,959 --> 03:32:37,520
continually interrupted in a way that apparently Hitler viewed as

3174
03:32:37,559 --> 03:32:40,719
totally tactless and still like that Mede Hitler very angry

3175
03:32:43,280 --> 03:32:45,000
as a kind of as a kind of would any

3176
03:32:45,120 --> 03:32:48,479
sort of like old world Habsburg German. But Hitler especially

3177
03:32:49,360 --> 03:32:53,159
it was you know, it's basically like, look if you're

3178
03:32:53,159 --> 03:32:56,559
a definitelytic representative, even if you're a foreign minister. You know,

3179
03:32:57,559 --> 03:32:59,840
when heads of state are talking, you don't see anything,

3180
03:33:00,719 --> 03:33:03,200
you know, I mean, so it's just every every conceivable

3181
03:33:03,639 --> 03:33:09,319
sort of aspect of this of this affairs came uh,

3182
03:33:09,719 --> 03:33:12,639
you know, a fiasco, you know, a a literal comedy

3183
03:33:13,000 --> 03:33:22,680
of errors. But uh, Hitler kept at it even uh

3184
03:33:24,200 --> 03:33:26,200
even and even even through you know, when dinner was

3185
03:33:26,280 --> 03:33:35,479
served and even afterwards, and uh it uh you know

3186
03:33:35,520 --> 03:33:37,280
it it came to nothing. And that was. That was

3187
03:33:37,280 --> 03:33:41,159
the last summit. There's the last summer between Franco and

3188
03:33:41,360 --> 03:33:43,799
UH and the fere and really like any any official

3189
03:33:43,840 --> 03:33:48,799
representatives of of of their respective office, you know, it's

3190
03:33:50,120 --> 03:33:55,879
the the Blue Division deployed, you know, to the Eastern Front.

3191
03:33:56,120 --> 03:34:01,399
You know, they fought valiantly, particularly at Leningrad. But I

3192
03:34:01,479 --> 03:34:05,879
mean that, uh, that was that, you know, there was

3193
03:34:05,959 --> 03:34:09,799
no Franco was no nearer to you know, joining the

3194
03:34:09,879 --> 03:34:15,360
axis than he had been at you know, prior to

3195
03:34:15,399 --> 03:34:22,799
the meeting soon Air. You know, if anything, he probably

3196
03:34:22,879 --> 03:34:28,200
sabotaged the proceedings in some small way or possibly in

3197
03:34:28,280 --> 03:34:33,040
a major way by his you know, kind of uncouth conduct. However,

3198
03:34:33,159 --> 03:34:39,319
well intentioned it might have been, you know, and it was. Uh.

3199
03:34:41,799 --> 03:34:49,440
Hitler went on UH to meet uh Patten on the

3200
03:34:49,559 --> 03:34:59,360
twenty fourth October. He greeted pretend as the victor of

3201
03:34:59,479 --> 03:35:04,079
their done, you know, saluted him, you know again, like

3202
03:35:04,200 --> 03:35:07,440
treating him like you know, with all not just all

3203
03:35:07,440 --> 03:35:10,360
the honors do a field marshal, but you know as

3204
03:35:10,879 --> 03:35:15,520
also as the president of France, you know it uh

3205
03:35:17,680 --> 03:35:19,200
you know, but he had nothing he had you know,

3206
03:35:19,319 --> 03:35:21,159
he had nothing to offer, you know. In the French.

3207
03:35:21,600 --> 03:35:24,639
The Petain's perspective was, you know, we're already at war

3208
03:35:24,760 --> 03:35:27,479
with the UK, like what more do you want from us?

3209
03:35:27,920 --> 03:35:33,280
You know, And I mean for the record, you know

3210
03:35:33,319 --> 03:35:35,239
that continued throughout the war. You know, I don't need

3211
03:35:35,280 --> 03:35:38,959
to remind people, you know who another history that the

3212
03:35:39,040 --> 03:35:44,799
final defenders of of UH, the CHS Thug and the

3213
03:35:44,879 --> 03:35:47,680
fear of Bunker were you know, the French FAF and SS,

3214
03:35:47,799 --> 03:35:55,000
you know, Charlote Magne. You know, but it was it

3215
03:35:55,159 --> 03:35:58,799
was a you know, he just reiterated, you know, Patain,

3216
03:35:59,040 --> 03:36:02,280
you know, it's the France can only afford the role

3217
03:36:02,319 --> 03:36:05,479
of non belligerent and official capacities, you know, over the

3218
03:36:05,520 --> 03:36:09,639
time being, you know, otherwise otherwise, you know, and defend

3219
03:36:09,719 --> 03:36:12,200
a is you know what we can in Africa, you know,

3220
03:36:12,280 --> 03:36:14,920
from the common enemy. But you know, beyond that, there's

3221
03:36:15,040 --> 03:36:18,159
there's there's nothing to be done unless you know, Spain's

3222
03:36:18,159 --> 03:36:20,719
willing to come to terms. And uh.

3223
03:36:22,319 --> 03:36:22,920
Speaker 1: That uh.

3224
03:36:24,559 --> 03:36:27,879
Speaker 2: Was that kind of the final kind of the final

3225
03:36:28,000 --> 03:36:34,879
chapter was the final there the nailing the coffin. Rather

3226
03:36:36,840 --> 03:36:41,440
A month subsequent, November twenty eighth, nineteen forty, Ribbon Troup's

3227
03:36:41,440 --> 03:36:46,319
ambassador in Berlin the form the German Ambassador to to

3228
03:36:46,440 --> 03:36:55,600
Madrid to Spain. In Madrid Eperlin, he relayed that Franco

3229
03:36:56,239 --> 03:37:00,559
was now willing to proceed with East of Christy prepperations

3230
03:37:01,799 --> 03:37:05,239
Britain's proposed entry into the war if you know Hitler

3231
03:37:05,319 --> 03:37:07,719
was willing to you know, if Hitler was willing to

3232
03:37:07,799 --> 03:37:09,559
now come to terms, you know, in some way that

3233
03:37:09,959 --> 03:37:16,239
you know, both men could live with. Hitler took this

3234
03:37:16,360 --> 03:37:21,079
to mean that this meant that Franco was willing to

3235
03:37:21,200 --> 03:37:26,479
enter the war immediately, you know, pending uh satisfaction and

3236
03:37:26,520 --> 03:37:31,920
conditions precedent. On December fourth, he sent Canarist to Franco

3237
03:37:34,840 --> 03:37:43,959
with a personal letter proposing that German troops formally enter

3238
03:37:44,040 --> 03:37:54,040
Spain and you know, prepare uh to assault Gibraltar, which

3239
03:37:54,239 --> 03:37:57,000
six was six hundred miles from the frontier. Okay, so

3240
03:37:57,079 --> 03:38:01,840
we're talking, you're talking about a real deployment across across

3241
03:38:03,040 --> 03:38:05,280
you know, the Spanish heartland, which is no small thing.

3242
03:38:05,399 --> 03:38:10,479
But again it I mean considering, considering, you know, the

3243
03:38:10,600 --> 03:38:13,200
course of negotiations. This w was not this was not

3244
03:38:13,440 --> 03:38:18,600
an outlandish request. And let's forget that, you know, German

3245
03:38:19,079 --> 03:38:22,600
forces spent three years fighting, you know, on Spanish soil

3246
03:38:22,760 --> 03:38:27,559
to you know, guarantee the existence of Franco and his people,

3247
03:38:27,879 --> 03:38:34,719
you know, and subsequently the government that they now you know,

3248
03:38:34,760 --> 03:38:38,920
they now uh, they now enjoyed in Madrid. So this, uh, this,

3249
03:38:40,479 --> 03:38:44,840
this was perfectly well placed in customary you know terms

3250
03:38:44,840 --> 03:38:46,719
as well as you know, the commonly accepted sort of

3251
03:38:48,680 --> 03:38:57,280
rights and privileges of uh of allies. You know. Franco

3252
03:38:57,399 --> 03:39:01,680
afforded Canarius along audience on December seventh, nineteen forty as

3253
03:39:01,680 --> 03:39:06,360
an auspicious day, auspicious day, you know, one year prior

3254
03:39:06,399 --> 03:39:14,120
to Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor exactly. Franco said to Canaris

3255
03:39:14,200 --> 03:39:17,840
that for economic reasons relating to you know, the terrible

3256
03:39:17,920 --> 03:39:22,959
cost of the Civil War, Spain could not be ready

3257
03:39:24,000 --> 03:39:27,280
to assault the UK by January tenth. Spain could only

3258
03:39:27,479 --> 03:39:30,399
and Spain could only join the war. Furthermore, if Britain

3259
03:39:30,520 --> 03:39:32,840
was on the on the brink of collapse, you know,

3260
03:39:33,200 --> 03:39:36,920
any kind of attrition contest, you know, Spain just could

3261
03:39:36,959 --> 03:39:41,760
not commit to that, which again was just you know, uh,

3262
03:39:42,520 --> 03:39:45,000
it was it was, it was, it was, it was.

3263
03:39:45,120 --> 03:39:48,559
It was just. It was just Franko's favorite method once

3264
03:39:48,600 --> 03:39:52,840
again of finding a way to to you know, to

3265
03:39:52,959 --> 03:39:58,559
not to not commit to the alliance. Well, uh, wrong

3266
03:39:58,680 --> 03:40:03,760
footing his enemy and some in some way how we're transparent,

3267
03:40:05,520 --> 03:40:13,719
that might have been it. Uh. Hitler's rebuttal or response

3268
03:40:14,200 --> 03:40:18,000
uh to the Canaris meeting was uh, you know, just

3269
03:40:20,000 --> 03:40:25,600
again you know too, to reiterate, uh, you know, the

3270
03:40:27,200 --> 03:40:33,760
that Gibraltar was essential that you know, unless uh, unless

3271
03:40:33,879 --> 03:40:38,399
the United Tignam was deprived of its access to the Mediterranean,

3272
03:40:40,200 --> 03:40:44,040
you know it, Uh, it would soon prevail in North Africa.

3273
03:40:44,280 --> 03:40:50,719
Hitler had no illusions about that, and ultimately that would

3274
03:40:50,760 --> 03:40:54,600
be the end of Spain. And you know, he reminded

3275
03:40:54,680 --> 03:40:58,680
him too that without the help of you know, himself

3276
03:40:58,760 --> 03:41:01,600
and Mussolini, either would be nationalist Spain today, nor would

3277
03:41:01,600 --> 03:41:08,440
they be any Cardillo, you know. And he said that

3278
03:41:08,559 --> 03:41:17,479
Franco's vacillating attitude was not befitting a general officer, which

3279
03:41:17,559 --> 03:41:22,399
seemed to stink deep because uh, Franco proceeded to angrily

3280
03:41:22,520 --> 03:41:30,799
denounce not Hitler himself, but he gained close. He told

3281
03:41:30,879 --> 03:41:34,280
Canarious that he never vacillated. Uh you know that he

3282
03:41:35,239 --> 03:41:37,280
he he was always committed to the cause. But that

3283
03:41:37,680 --> 03:41:43,520
you know, Spain has been bled white, you know, because

3284
03:41:43,760 --> 03:41:47,639
the fight against Bolshevism, you know, occurred, you know, on

3285
03:41:47,840 --> 03:41:51,280
their territory first and foremost. And you know, how dare

3286
03:41:51,280 --> 03:41:54,520
you going to question the sacrifice of Spanish manhood and all?

3287
03:41:58,799 --> 03:42:02,000
But the fear was right and Franco was wrong. And

3288
03:42:03,559 --> 03:42:07,280
I mean it's that simple. I and again too, I

3289
03:42:07,319 --> 03:42:11,479
mean aside from that, I mean, all all this which

3290
03:42:11,520 --> 03:42:14,959
is obvious kind of who's colbal and who you know

3291
03:42:16,680 --> 03:42:22,719
was responsible for the inability of you know, any any

3292
03:42:22,799 --> 03:42:26,319
kind of real concourd to emerge between uh, you know, Germany, Italy,

3293
03:42:27,680 --> 03:42:32,639
Spain and France. It's clear that, I mean, Franco was

3294
03:42:32,719 --> 03:42:39,200
a unless one puts, you know, self preservation above all

3295
03:42:39,280 --> 03:42:43,079
other goods. It's it's obvious that Franco was really kind

3296
03:42:43,079 --> 03:42:46,000
of a pox on on the house proverbial house of

3297
03:42:47,200 --> 03:42:54,239
of of all patriotic forces then so mobilized and engaged

3298
03:42:55,079 --> 03:43:00,879
against UH, you know, the Bolsheviks and UH and their

3299
03:43:00,959 --> 03:43:07,319
allies and Britain. This this situation was so complicated by

3300
03:43:07,399 --> 03:43:12,559
Musolini jumping the gun and informing Hitler that he intended

3301
03:43:12,559 --> 03:43:16,959
to assault Greece, which in turn obviously would have given

3302
03:43:17,000 --> 03:43:20,600
the UK a pretext to occupy Crete and then you know,

3303
03:43:20,879 --> 03:43:25,479
to bring UH their strategic bombers within striking distance of

3304
03:43:26,120 --> 03:43:28,719
the Mediterranean theater. I mean, there was there was other

3305
03:43:28,920 --> 03:43:36,319
things too that were rendering this the timetable uh, you know,

3306
03:43:37,840 --> 03:43:41,639
and it's that we're putting pressure on you know, that

3307
03:43:42,399 --> 03:43:46,319
the strategic timetable for any sort of remedial action to

3308
03:43:46,399 --> 03:43:50,600
be taken with respect to Gibraltar or anywhere else the Mediterraneans.

3309
03:43:50,680 --> 03:43:55,479
Speaker 1: So go ahead was in Hitler really at that point

3310
03:43:55,600 --> 03:43:59,600
had just asked Mussolini to make sure that the Suez

3311
03:43:59,639 --> 03:44:01,319
Canal was secure, right.

3312
03:44:02,440 --> 03:44:06,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there was an ongoing there was an ongoing uh,

3313
03:44:06,719 --> 03:44:11,120
you know, controversy as to you know, to what degree

3314
03:44:13,639 --> 03:44:19,440
the uh, the North African campaign should be prioritized and

3315
03:44:19,520 --> 03:44:22,079
to what degree then you know that this this was

3316
03:44:22,159 --> 03:44:28,200
before uh you know Rammel had uh had had you know,

3317
03:44:28,360 --> 03:44:34,879
struck these great victories out and you know in uh

3318
03:44:36,280 --> 03:44:38,920
in the North African theater. I mean initially it was

3319
03:44:38,959 --> 03:44:41,360
initially the average were deployed, you know, to relieve you know,

3320
03:44:41,440 --> 03:44:45,680
the Italians who were you know, failing in every conceivable

3321
03:44:45,760 --> 03:44:51,319
capacity and operational terms, you know. And then later when uh,

3322
03:44:52,440 --> 03:44:57,319
you know, Ronald I think it's somewhat over overly praised

3323
03:44:57,319 --> 03:45:00,239
because these are romantic figure and plus you know, people

3324
03:45:00,239 --> 03:45:03,600
look at him as a good guy because he he

3325
03:45:03,840 --> 03:45:06,920
he was wrongfully implicated in July twenty plot, but he

3326
03:45:07,000 --> 03:45:10,920
was nonetheless implicated and you know the s D Gestapo

3327
03:45:11,239 --> 03:45:13,760
you know, forced him to commit suicide. But he it

3328
03:45:13,879 --> 03:45:18,319
was uh, you know, it was it was Rommel's you know, uh,

3329
03:45:19,840 --> 03:45:22,520
you know, Prussian commitment to missionary and at tactics like

3330
03:45:22,639 --> 03:45:25,440
ritt Large, which kind of you know, which kind of

3331
03:45:25,440 --> 03:45:28,200
made North Africa into like a into like a you know,

3332
03:45:28,399 --> 03:45:31,239
a real battle theater because of the fact is that

3333
03:45:31,319 --> 03:45:37,920
he kept succeeding. But yeah, the the uh that that

3334
03:45:38,040 --> 03:45:43,639
was basically the Italian armies. That that's what that that,

3335
03:45:43,840 --> 03:45:47,639
that's what their responsibility was, you know, vis a vis

3336
03:45:47,760 --> 03:45:53,239
the UH, the Access Alliance and that UH. And yeah,

3337
03:45:53,239 --> 03:45:56,040
the Italian army in North Africa was problematic. I think

3338
03:45:56,079 --> 03:46:01,680
the Italians fought pretty heroically on the Eastern Front, but

3339
03:46:01,879 --> 03:46:07,159
the U and in the Balkans, their their mountain troops

3340
03:46:07,479 --> 03:46:09,879
were real game and real tough.

3341
03:46:10,040 --> 03:46:11,520
Speaker 1: But the.

3342
03:46:13,719 --> 03:46:17,079
Speaker 2: The Italian forces in Africa were not. They were not good,

3343
03:46:17,680 --> 03:46:19,479
and they were a liability in a lot of ways,

3344
03:46:19,520 --> 03:46:21,959
with some exceptions. I don't I don't want like Italian

3345
03:46:22,000 --> 03:46:23,959
people to get mad or something or think I'm saying

3346
03:46:24,000 --> 03:46:24,840
something bad about them.

3347
03:46:24,879 --> 03:46:25,120
Speaker 1: I'm not.

3348
03:46:25,319 --> 03:46:27,399
Speaker 2: But the Italian army.

3349
03:46:27,280 --> 03:46:30,239
Speaker 1: Had You've already pissed off the Spanish, So I.

3350
03:46:30,280 --> 03:46:34,360
Speaker 2: Mean, yeah, I don't wanna. I don't know, it's set.

3351
03:46:34,399 --> 03:46:36,120
I don't want a whole form of Latin people who

3352
03:46:36,159 --> 03:46:42,000
are mad at me. But the UH, you know, that

3353
03:46:42,239 --> 03:46:49,959
was that was that was that And a lot of

3354
03:46:50,000 --> 03:46:55,680
this too. I mentioned, Uh, I mentioned Vaulter, who.

3355
03:47:00,159 --> 03:47:03,000
Speaker 1: As you said, I mentioned and then you cut out.

3356
03:47:03,040 --> 03:47:03,719
So what did you say?

3357
03:47:04,000 --> 03:47:08,959
Speaker 2: I said, I mentioned Walt Walter. Hewell a minute ago. UH.

3358
03:47:09,760 --> 03:47:13,040
A lot of this testimony comes from hewell, you know,

3359
03:47:13,079 --> 03:47:15,600
and what he what he documented in his diaries and things,

3360
03:47:16,280 --> 03:47:22,120
and hewell was he was a career diplomat and fter

3361
03:47:22,200 --> 03:47:24,799
nineteen thirty three he became chief at the East Asian

3362
03:47:24,879 --> 03:47:27,879
disc of the Foreign Ministry, and then during the war

3363
03:47:28,559 --> 03:47:32,159
he became special liaison between the Foreign Ministry and the FEAR,

3364
03:47:32,719 --> 03:47:35,920
and he and Hitler became quite close. And Hewill was

3365
03:47:35,959 --> 03:47:39,440
an interesting guy, kind of like an unassuming guy, like

3366
03:47:39,680 --> 03:47:41,600
the kind of guy who is a great diplomat. Like

3367
03:47:41,680 --> 03:47:46,319
if if hewell could have been negotiating with soon Air,

3368
03:47:46,799 --> 03:47:48,559
there would have been a very different outcome, I believe.

3369
03:47:48,719 --> 03:47:54,879
But my point is that uh, Hewle's uh, he's a credit.

3370
03:47:54,959 --> 03:47:59,079
He is a credible source on this, and he he

3371
03:47:59,239 --> 03:48:02,639
really had no observing these things in is like private

3372
03:48:02,719 --> 03:48:05,200
diary where he was talking to himself, you know, like

3373
03:48:05,360 --> 03:48:08,200
here there really would be no reason why to let

3374
03:48:08,239 --> 03:48:10,719
finesse these things. And frankly too, I mean again, I

3375
03:48:10,760 --> 03:48:13,360
don't think, I don't think. I don't think anybody really

3376
03:48:13,399 --> 03:48:16,799
looks good or reasonable in this MILEU except the Hiller himself.

3377
03:48:17,559 --> 03:48:19,840
You know, I'm sure that take makes people mad too,

3378
03:48:20,000 --> 03:48:24,760
But speaking within you know, the bowd irrationality of h

3379
03:48:26,000 --> 03:48:31,239
of you know, the strategic planning, you know, based on

3380
03:48:32,120 --> 03:48:40,959
the conditions confronted you know, by all combatant states on

3381
03:48:41,040 --> 03:48:43,559
the acts of side as of October nineteen forty. And

3382
03:48:44,399 --> 03:48:46,600
you know this that this should not had developed the

3383
03:48:46,639 --> 03:48:48,639
way it did. But it goes to show you the

3384
03:48:48,760 --> 03:48:53,840
human factor, you know, and people and there you know,

3385
03:48:55,200 --> 03:48:59,760
idiosyncrasies and personality and and everything else. I mean it is,

3386
03:49:00,040 --> 03:49:06,159
uh is like like like sabotages the best laid plans

3387
03:49:06,200 --> 03:49:09,479
and nations more than any any army could you know

3388
03:49:09,680 --> 03:49:12,280
much of the time. Man Like, that's not just some

3389
03:49:12,440 --> 03:49:16,879
dumb cliche. But that's uh, that's the story of Uh,

3390
03:49:17,959 --> 03:49:21,520
that's the story of you know, the Cadillo and the Furor,

3391
03:49:21,639 --> 03:49:27,639
and you know the conspicuous absence of Spain and you

3392
03:49:27,719 --> 03:49:29,799
know on the on the battlefields of World War two

3393
03:49:30,079 --> 03:49:35,239
save for the Blue Division later the Blue Legion when

3394
03:49:35,280 --> 03:49:38,440
they were reconstituted, who were very who fought heroically again.

3395
03:49:39,319 --> 03:49:42,639
But you know, that's that's why. And that's all I

3396
03:49:42,719 --> 03:49:46,280
got for too good, Let's do plugs and get out

3397
03:49:46,280 --> 03:49:49,799
of here. Yeah, for sure, I realized I haven't been

3398
03:49:49,840 --> 03:49:53,000
plugging my website. I do have a website now, it's

3399
03:49:54,479 --> 03:49:57,639
number seven h m A S seven seven seven dot com,

3400
03:49:57,719 --> 03:50:01,440
which is Thomas seven seven seven dot com. It's kind

3401
03:50:01,440 --> 03:50:03,040
of like a one stop not kind I mean, it's

3402
03:50:03,079 --> 03:50:06,520
a one stop place for all my content, okay, And

3403
03:50:07,799 --> 03:50:10,000
I still got to like tweak some stuff that, like

3404
03:50:10,159 --> 03:50:12,559
my Twitter feed like shows up there in the timely manner,

3405
03:50:12,639 --> 03:50:14,920
but pretty much all like that video stuff I do

3406
03:50:15,479 --> 03:50:18,559
like here with Pete and other things, you know, shows

3407
03:50:18,639 --> 03:50:21,000
up here, like my podcast, you can like access it there,

3408
03:50:21,479 --> 03:50:23,680
you know, just like one off streams I appear on

3409
03:50:23,760 --> 03:50:26,319
and stuff like that, you can find it there. And

3410
03:50:26,760 --> 03:50:29,520
I'm gonna sucks it up and like fix some of

3411
03:50:29,559 --> 03:50:31,600
the glitches. And but I mean you can go here

3412
03:50:31,639 --> 03:50:33,799
now and it's like up and running, okay. But the

3413
03:50:33,879 --> 03:50:38,120
stuff that doesn't work particularly well yet, that's getting worked out. Uh.

3414
03:50:39,399 --> 03:50:43,879
You can still find me on Twitter if you request

3415
03:50:45,680 --> 03:50:47,840
to follow me, I will let you follow me. I

3416
03:50:48,559 --> 03:50:50,760
just rubber stamp, but does it work. But I've got

3417
03:50:50,840 --> 03:50:53,479
to have my tweets protected because otherwise, like a bunch

3418
03:50:53,479 --> 03:50:55,600
of freaks like Zert rush me and get me banned,

3419
03:50:56,559 --> 03:50:58,639
which just happened like twelve times. I'm not just talking

3420
03:50:58,680 --> 03:51:02,799
you shit. You can find me at substick that if

3421
03:51:02,840 --> 03:51:07,559
you can find my podcast, it's a real Thomas seven

3422
03:51:07,639 --> 03:51:10,159
seven seven do subseck dot com. And that's pretty much

3423
03:51:10,159 --> 03:51:11,600
what we're up on. Like a lot of things are

3424
03:51:11,680 --> 03:51:13,399
happening now. I know I've been saying that for a minute,

3425
03:51:13,479 --> 03:51:16,760
but I am a one man operation. Like with my

3426
03:51:16,879 --> 03:51:21,319
dear friend and editor Rake, we're a two man operation.

3427
03:51:21,600 --> 03:51:25,440
But I'm I'm working on the second season of Mind Phaser,

3428
03:51:26,200 --> 03:51:28,920
at which time the first season episodes will all become free.

3429
03:51:29,600 --> 03:51:32,440
But there's a help a lot going into that. There's

3430
03:51:32,479 --> 03:51:34,399
a help alot going into like the video we're shooting

3431
03:51:34,520 --> 03:51:36,760
and I've got a help lot of footage, but I

3432
03:51:36,799 --> 03:51:39,040
got I gotta make it into something and it's damn

3433
03:51:39,120 --> 03:51:41,559
time consuming. Just please get me to bear with me,

3434
03:51:41,760 --> 03:51:44,360
like I'm getting shipped together. But it's and it will

3435
03:51:44,399 --> 03:51:47,200
be dope, but it's just taking time. That's all I got.

3436
03:51:48,639 --> 03:51:51,440
Speaker 1: Well until part five. Thank you so much.

3437
03:51:51,479 --> 03:51:55,079
Speaker 2: I appreciate it, Thomas, I likewise, man, thank you.

3438
03:51:58,120 --> 03:52:02,360
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the show. We

3439
03:52:02,479 --> 03:52:05,559
had a little delay in between episodes because Thomas's life

3440
03:52:05,680 --> 03:52:06,319
is exciting.

3441
03:52:06,879 --> 03:52:10,479
Speaker 2: How you doing, Thomas and doing well? Man? Yeah, I

3442
03:52:10,559 --> 03:52:15,040
apologize for that. I want to, Like I was telling

3443
03:52:15,360 --> 03:52:20,680
Pete before we went live, a huge amount of people

3444
03:52:21,239 --> 03:52:24,639
reached out out of genuine concern and that's incredible, man,

3445
03:52:24,879 --> 03:52:27,959
you know it's really that. I mean not just because

3446
03:52:28,399 --> 03:52:30,959
that you know makes anybody feel good, you know that

3447
03:52:31,159 --> 03:52:34,840
they have friends that love them. But that's the essence

3448
03:52:34,920 --> 03:52:37,120
of the social capital I'm talking about all the time,

3449
03:52:37,280 --> 03:52:40,680
is like building you know, not just pragmatic that works

3450
03:52:40,719 --> 03:52:44,520
for you know, like polayable action and things, but in

3451
03:52:44,639 --> 03:52:47,159
day to day life, like you know, when crises emerged,

3452
03:52:47,559 --> 03:52:49,639
you know, as they always do it on personal terms,

3453
03:52:49,639 --> 03:52:53,000
I guess someone's being terrorized by the regime. You know,

3454
03:52:53,600 --> 03:52:55,879
there there's there's a network of people that organically like

3455
03:52:55,959 --> 03:52:58,840
springs in action, you know, and that so that that's

3456
03:52:58,920 --> 03:53:00,879
been that's kind of the sober lining man like if

3457
03:53:00,879 --> 03:53:04,479
there if there was one, because that you know, that's

3458
03:53:04,520 --> 03:53:07,479
the structure very much kind of like came into focus,

3459
03:53:09,319 --> 03:53:13,600
you know, owing to them, owing to owing to something

3460
03:53:13,639 --> 03:53:15,520
that I mean, frankly, in the broad scheme like was

3461
03:53:15,600 --> 03:53:18,120
not a big deal, but it's when it's going on,

3462
03:53:18,239 --> 03:53:20,280
it's fucked up and you like disappear off the earth

3463
03:53:20,280 --> 03:53:22,239
if you get arrested because they take away all your

3464
03:53:22,280 --> 03:53:25,399
means of communication. So I just I didn't I'm not

3465
03:53:25,440 --> 03:53:27,520
trying to eat up the clock. I just I just

3466
03:53:27,639 --> 03:53:29,440
wanted this is a good opportunity to kind of like

3467
03:53:29,760 --> 03:53:37,479
address our friends direct. But today, I uh, this is

3468
03:53:37,719 --> 03:53:40,840
this is the last episode where i'll I'll approach it

3469
03:53:40,920 --> 03:53:43,559
and what appears perhaps to be kind of a scattershot

3470
03:53:44,280 --> 03:53:50,079
topical orientation, and we'll get into like the nuts and boats,

3471
03:53:50,120 --> 03:53:52,959
the battlefield situation and how it resolved in the next episode.

3472
03:53:53,040 --> 03:53:57,319
But to understand the Spanish War, and frankly too, to

3473
03:53:57,440 --> 03:54:01,360
understand the path that Franco struck out out as regards

3474
03:54:01,399 --> 03:54:04,159
to the Fear and the third Right, as well as

3475
03:54:04,639 --> 03:54:08,120
you know Spain and it's geostrategic situations generally, You've really

3476
03:54:08,159 --> 03:54:11,799
you've got to understand how unusual the state and as

3477
03:54:11,879 --> 03:54:17,479
society Spain is. You know, it's a complete outlier. And

3478
03:54:18,079 --> 03:54:21,040
what I mean by that is this, even you know,

3479
03:54:21,799 --> 03:54:27,040
I disagree, I take strong exception to people who they're

3480
03:54:27,079 --> 03:54:29,559
trying to identify, you know, and people with people, and

3481
03:54:29,600 --> 03:54:31,959
then a lot of a lot of people who abide

3482
03:54:32,280 --> 03:54:35,959
kind of Meersheimer's perspective do this, and I only reference

3483
03:54:36,079 --> 03:54:39,639
that because generally I agree with those people on certain matters,

3484
03:54:39,680 --> 03:54:41,360
and this is one of those cases where I don't.

3485
03:54:41,440 --> 03:54:44,000
But you know, they posit that there's this kind of school,

3486
03:54:44,159 --> 03:54:46,799
there's this discrete, you know, sort of school of of

3487
03:54:47,000 --> 03:54:50,520
of political thought, particularly strategic matters, you know, of realism,

3488
03:54:50,840 --> 03:54:52,959
and that you know, there's some there's some sort of

3489
03:54:53,000 --> 03:54:57,760
straight line basically linear trajectory between things, cities, you know,

3490
03:54:57,920 --> 03:54:59,360
all the way through the people at games to burn

3491
03:54:59,440 --> 03:55:04,520
them in this nonsense. However, the first really modern political

3492
03:55:04,600 --> 03:55:07,360
theorist was was Machiavelli. Okay, and there's a reason why

3493
03:55:07,399 --> 03:55:11,719
Machiavelli he identified he had identified Ferdinand and Isabella as

3494
03:55:11,760 --> 03:55:15,079
the first true like you know, are architects of the

3495
03:55:15,120 --> 03:55:17,479
modern state, you know. And then then and this proceeded,

3496
03:55:17,719 --> 03:55:20,559
this proceeded not just with failure, but the thirty years

3497
03:55:20,600 --> 03:55:26,399
were itself by one hundred years. You know. So there's

3498
03:55:26,479 --> 03:55:29,479
there's this lyrid economy of Spain, because Spain, you know,

3499
03:55:29,920 --> 03:55:32,280
in living memory, it's always views either the sick man

3500
03:55:32,360 --> 03:55:36,079
of Europe or this kind of you know, backward state comparatively,

3501
03:55:37,040 --> 03:55:39,799
or the state that's you know, compromised in terms of

3502
03:55:39,879 --> 03:55:44,680
its social sociological architecture, you know, by by reactionary tendencies,

3503
03:55:45,159 --> 03:55:47,680
and you know, things that are more characteristic of the

3504
03:55:47,719 --> 03:55:50,639
developing world, you know than they are uh that, than

3505
03:55:50,680 --> 03:55:52,840
they are Europe of you know, America and North Asia.

3506
03:55:53,239 --> 03:55:56,000
But Spain was a century ahead of the curve and

3507
03:55:56,040 --> 03:56:01,040
its political development. You know, even amidst uh these arguably,

3508
03:56:01,959 --> 03:56:06,520
you know, conditions have impoverished you know, material and social capital.

3509
03:56:07,159 --> 03:56:11,840
And that's a curious question because to a lesser degree

3510
03:56:11,879 --> 03:56:15,000
and in different capacities. You know, Russia was like that too.

3511
03:56:15,520 --> 03:56:22,239
You know, there was this tremendously evolved intellectual uh climate

3512
03:56:22,440 --> 03:56:25,440
in Russia. I mean, and it had horrible outcomes. Okay,

3513
03:56:25,520 --> 03:56:28,159
I mean that's that's why Communis and found such fertile ground.

3514
03:56:28,239 --> 03:56:34,840
But you know, again, right, Russia was decades ahead in

3515
03:56:35,000 --> 03:56:38,120
terms of in terms of in terms of the in

3516
03:56:38,200 --> 03:56:40,799
terms of the intellectual paradigms. It was playing with a

3517
03:56:41,319 --> 03:56:44,600
state craft. But in terms of material capital and the

3518
03:56:44,719 --> 03:56:48,120
conditions that allow, you know, for material capital to truly

3519
03:56:48,239 --> 03:56:53,360
flourish and you know, and and provide technological development, those things,

3520
03:56:54,079 --> 03:57:00,920
those things were absent. And that also you know, Spain,

3521
03:57:01,280 --> 03:57:04,079
unlike most empires space to say Spain, the Spanish Empire

3522
03:57:04,079 --> 03:57:09,680
didn't become rich. It probably and it's in the terms

3523
03:57:09,719 --> 03:57:13,600
we understand wealth and money. This Spain, the Spanish emperica

3524
03:57:13,680 --> 03:57:15,680
zine that was was was the wealth these empire that

3525
03:57:15,760 --> 03:57:19,440
ever existed. Okay, you know, it spanned this planet. It

3526
03:57:19,520 --> 03:57:22,200
was able to challenge the Royal Navy. You know, it

3527
03:57:23,280 --> 03:57:24,719
was just it was just it was it was a

3528
03:57:24,799 --> 03:57:28,799
juggernaut basically, you know, it was just incredibly powerful. But

3529
03:57:30,239 --> 03:57:34,680
it's social art sector didn't really become more complex with that.

3530
03:57:35,360 --> 03:57:37,799
You know, it's it's wild we overstated or people to

3531
03:57:37,879 --> 03:57:39,920
talk about this, you know, the middle class like it's

3532
03:57:39,959 --> 03:57:43,920
this ambassador class and like it can finesse these intrinsic

3533
03:57:45,040 --> 03:57:50,040
you know, alleged hostilities you know, between a master and serf,

3534
03:57:50,079 --> 03:57:53,959
from between like aristocrat and peasant, or between uh you know,

3535
03:57:54,120 --> 03:58:01,239
proletarian and and and and a high bourgeois and that's nonsense,

3536
03:58:01,760 --> 03:58:05,079
but there is like something of a causal nexus there.

3537
03:58:05,319 --> 03:58:07,799
I think it's more just that, you know, as so

3538
03:58:08,159 --> 03:58:12,079
theological architecture becomes more diversified owing to the increased complexity

3539
03:58:12,120 --> 03:58:15,680
of economic activity and behavior and scale, that there just

3540
03:58:15,799 --> 03:58:18,479
becomes more and more kinds of threasic complex integration and

3541
03:58:18,559 --> 03:58:23,879
interdependence between institutions and people's and that appears from without.

3542
03:58:24,280 --> 03:58:25,639
You know, if you want to like turn into event

3543
03:58:25,760 --> 03:58:29,239
diagram as this kind of middle class you know, being embarassed,

3544
03:58:29,440 --> 03:58:32,159
you know, playing an ambassador role, but regardless of you know,

3545
03:58:32,600 --> 03:58:35,600
the chicken or the egg and how that resolves in

3546
03:58:35,680 --> 03:58:39,200
one's own mind or in real terms. That that didn't

3547
03:58:39,239 --> 03:58:43,840
happen in Spain, Okay, you have this starkly divided society

3548
03:58:44,639 --> 03:58:49,280
and they, you know, finally when the nineteenth century arrived,

3549
03:58:50,040 --> 03:58:53,440
you know, the Spanish didn't. Spain had a totally different

3550
03:58:53,520 --> 03:58:56,520
experience in the nineteenth century than everybody else, did, you know,

3551
03:58:56,680 --> 03:58:59,959
like the long piece, they didn't experience that. Instead of

3552
03:59:00,040 --> 03:59:04,719
the experienced incredibly you know, chaotic circumstances. They were punctuated

3553
03:59:04,760 --> 03:59:08,360
by crisis after crisis after crisis after crisis, you know,

3554
03:59:10,120 --> 03:59:12,399
eighteen o eight to eighteen fourteen, you know, they were

3555
03:59:12,479 --> 03:59:15,719
occupied by Napoleon. You know, they didn't just they weren't

3556
03:59:15,799 --> 03:59:18,319
just you know, they weren't just part of you know,

3557
03:59:18,399 --> 03:59:21,680
the alliance that at the Battle of Nations or something.

3558
03:59:22,040 --> 03:59:28,040
You know, they they they were under occupation for for

3559
03:59:28,600 --> 03:59:33,520
close to a decade, you know, and from there it

3560
03:59:34,360 --> 03:59:36,440
you know, like we talked about in a week or

3561
03:59:36,479 --> 03:59:42,479
two ago, really the only kind of punctuated military crises

3562
03:59:43,360 --> 03:59:45,920
in the nineteenth century in Europe were localized. You know.

3563
03:59:45,959 --> 03:59:47,840
There was like the Franco Prussian War, it was the

3564
03:59:47,920 --> 03:59:51,000
Crimean War, but neither one of those, you know, really

3565
03:59:51,840 --> 03:59:55,680
were as impactful, like outside of a theater level. And

3566
03:59:55,760 --> 04:00:01,440
there's the eighteen forty eight revolutions, but that uh, that

3567
04:00:01,559 --> 04:00:05,040
that that that was nothing like nineteen seventeen or like

3568
04:00:05,280 --> 04:00:07,280
or like seventeen eighty nine, you know. But in the

3569
04:00:07,319 --> 04:00:13,479
case of Spain, they they're uh they they they came

3570
04:00:13,559 --> 04:00:16,200
to civil war. Conditions were emerging in eighteen twenty two,

3571
04:00:16,200 --> 04:00:20,840
eighteen twenty three, and French military intervention ended that eighteen

3572
04:00:20,879 --> 04:00:23,879
twenty seven. There was the Catalan insurrection. You know, in

3573
04:00:23,959 --> 04:00:27,799
these and these and these uh these uh these secession

3574
04:00:27,840 --> 04:00:32,760
oriented uh you know, the political movements on sundry in

3575
04:00:32,840 --> 04:00:36,479
Spain like always had uh always had traction. In Victoria

3576
04:00:36,520 --> 04:00:39,000
ways eighteen thirty three, eighteen forty it was the first

3577
04:00:39,079 --> 04:00:42,879
Carlist War, which was incredibly bloody, you know. Eighteen fifty nine,

3578
04:00:43,159 --> 04:00:47,840
you know, the Moroccan orb independence pops off eighteen seventy

3579
04:00:47,959 --> 04:00:51,079
eighty and seventy six, that's the Second Carlist War. During

3580
04:00:51,120 --> 04:00:55,319
this whole time, Spain was fighting in in in the Americas,

3581
04:00:55,959 --> 04:01:00,159
you know, because of these Hispanic American colonial revolts. You know,

3582
04:01:00,280 --> 04:01:03,559
eighteen sixty eighteen eighteen sixty eight to eighteen seventy eight,

3583
04:01:03,920 --> 04:01:07,520
there's the Ten Years War in Cuba and the subsequently

3584
04:01:07,559 --> 04:01:10,079
Spain literally fought America. You know, I mean this, this

3585
04:01:10,280 --> 04:01:15,959
is the uh, the degree, the degree with and in

3586
04:01:16,079 --> 04:01:20,120
Spain and the Two Cuban and the Two Cuban War

3587
04:01:20,200 --> 04:01:24,920
has lost over one hundred thousand kia. You know. No

3588
04:01:25,040 --> 04:01:28,200
European power absorbed that much military attrition. There were lost

3589
04:01:28,239 --> 04:01:32,200
as much territory and so rapid its time frame as

3590
04:01:32,239 --> 04:01:35,360
Spain did in the nineteenth century. You know. Uh, I'd

3591
04:01:35,360 --> 04:01:40,079
say what happened in Spain at reduced scale and adjusting

3592
04:01:40,239 --> 04:01:46,239
for strategic conditions of the of the of the power

3593
04:01:46,280 --> 04:01:49,799
plitical landscape, what happened in Spain was as catastrophic as

3594
04:01:49,799 --> 04:01:52,200
what happened to the Soviet Union? Are you believing? More so?

3595
04:01:52,639 --> 04:01:56,040
Because Spain was quite literally violently ripped apart, you know,

3596
04:01:57,959 --> 04:02:01,120
and it was this is how the this is what

3597
04:02:01,360 --> 04:02:04,440
gave birth to the Spanish revolutionary Left. Okay, the Spanish

3598
04:02:04,440 --> 04:02:09,399
revolutionary Left was always more savage, more sanguinary, more aggressive,

3599
04:02:09,600 --> 04:02:13,799
more unwilling to compromise than than anybody except probably the

3600
04:02:13,879 --> 04:02:21,040
Bolsheviks who succeeded them and uh, you know in the Jacovans,

3601
04:02:21,040 --> 04:02:27,440
who inspired every every radical tendency subsequent. But in eighteen

3602
04:02:27,479 --> 04:02:29,200
twenty one it is kind of viewed as the year

3603
04:02:29,319 --> 04:02:35,239
that the Spanish revolutionary Left came about. What they were,

3604
04:02:36,120 --> 04:02:41,440
the big the kind of seminal moment in uh in

3605
04:02:44,360 --> 04:02:48,639
a subsequent to you know, fernand and Isabella, you know,

3606
04:02:48,760 --> 04:02:53,239
creating the Spanish National state was the Constitution of eighteen twelve.

3607
04:02:53,879 --> 04:02:56,639
And I'm sure I'm gonna butcher this pronunciation, but these

3608
04:02:56,719 --> 04:02:59,479
liberal reformers, like some of them are quite radical, you know,

3609
04:02:59,520 --> 04:03:02,959
who are most responsible for structuring and authoring that constitution

3610
04:03:03,920 --> 04:03:08,559
or they were called Dokianistas or Dosinistas. I don't know

3611
04:03:08,600 --> 04:03:12,520
if it's a hard or soft seat, but they were.

3612
04:03:12,760 --> 04:03:15,959
They pretty rapidly moderated after they got their weight, and

3613
04:03:16,079 --> 04:03:20,760
they tried to implement a parliamentarian structure, you know, of

3614
04:03:20,879 --> 04:03:26,399
true sort of power sharing arrangements at interval that by

3615
04:03:26,479 --> 04:03:30,079
which you know, due process would be abided regardless of

3616
04:03:30,079 --> 04:03:33,719
the outcome of parliamentary elections. Okay, this is the last

3617
04:03:33,799 --> 04:03:37,120
time any faction in the left ever abided that. And

3618
04:03:37,440 --> 04:03:45,120
by eighteen twenty one, the disinfection from within, you know,

3619
04:03:45,399 --> 04:03:51,959
essentially the young turks Loo came to known as the Exaltados.

3620
04:03:52,920 --> 04:03:56,520
Their whole notion was, look, you know that the prize

3621
04:03:57,399 --> 04:04:01,239
in political contest, you know, within the state or the

3622
04:04:01,319 --> 04:04:05,760
state itself. Okay, if you know, if if if, if

3623
04:04:05,760 --> 04:04:07,680
we're gonna you know, if every if every three or

3624
04:04:07,760 --> 04:04:10,360
six or eight or ten years, you know, we're gonna

3625
04:04:10,399 --> 04:04:14,079
we're gonna briefly capture, you know, we're gonna really capture

3626
04:04:14,280 --> 04:04:17,200
you know, legislative majorities and things, you know, and then

3627
04:04:17,280 --> 04:04:19,799
just rush to you know, implement as much relief to

3628
04:04:20,799 --> 04:04:23,559
you know, to uh, to our class comrades as as

3629
04:04:23,760 --> 04:04:26,159
as as possible. But then immediately, you know, hand the

3630
04:04:26,239 --> 04:04:28,959
range of state over to our enemies, and watch that

3631
04:04:29,120 --> 04:04:33,399
be undone. You know, we're that that's that's uh, that's

3632
04:04:33,440 --> 04:04:37,399
beyond a fool's Errand you know, it's it's it's a

3633
04:04:37,479 --> 04:04:40,440
it's gonna and and it's it's beyond and even pointless

3634
04:04:40,479 --> 04:04:44,280
some you know, sort of acceptance of the status quo,

3635
04:04:44,799 --> 04:04:48,760
because that like obviously over time, that simply grinds down,

3636
04:04:49,079 --> 04:04:53,000
you know, the revolutionary uh impetus, like in in the

3637
04:04:53,120 --> 04:04:56,760
minds of of anyone who participates in the system, because

3638
04:04:57,079 --> 04:05:00,479
you know, a definition the system exists in new realizes,

3639
04:05:00,680 --> 04:05:04,239
you know, not just like like like reformist tendencies, let

3640
04:05:04,479 --> 04:05:09,920
alone revolutionary ones. Okay, So extatos, we're not willing to

3641
04:05:09,959 --> 04:05:12,879
surrender political ground, you know, for the sake of due

3642
04:05:12,959 --> 04:05:18,120
process or or or continental consent, power sharing or anything else.

3643
04:05:18,200 --> 04:05:18,479
Speaker 1: Okay.

3644
04:05:19,239 --> 04:05:23,000
Speaker 2: And that's a very Schmidtian concept of state, you know,

3645
04:05:23,079 --> 04:05:27,319
and not and and that I mean and that that

3646
04:05:27,479 --> 04:05:30,239
that makes sense, okay for for all kinds of reasons.

3647
04:05:30,879 --> 04:05:35,639
But the uh, the main, the main characteristic of the

3648
04:05:35,680 --> 04:05:41,040
extatos and what remained its kind of the core essence

3649
04:05:41,600 --> 04:05:45,600
of the French or the Front the Spanish radical left

3650
04:05:45,680 --> 04:05:51,040
subsequent was a total rejection and moderation and an employment

3651
04:05:51,079 --> 04:05:55,879
of violence not just to secure not just to secure

3652
04:05:55,879 --> 04:06:02,559
absolute you know, majoritarian consensus, but also to enforce government

3653
04:06:02,639 --> 04:06:06,959
policy once they accomplished or captured that consensus, you know,

3654
04:06:07,120 --> 04:06:10,440
And and and a view that it was perfectly legitimate

3655
04:06:10,639 --> 04:06:14,440
to enforce not just enforce compliance, you know, through use

3656
04:06:14,520 --> 04:06:19,120
of of uh of a violent terror apparatus, but also

3657
04:06:19,200 --> 04:06:22,280
to crush all all resistance and the president they drew upon.

3658
04:06:23,000 --> 04:06:26,000
You know, when when when these kinds of more liberal

3659
04:06:26,040 --> 04:06:28,079
minded moderates would say, look, you know, we all want

3660
04:06:28,079 --> 04:06:33,280
the same things. You know, where you're you're setting us

3661
04:06:33,399 --> 04:06:38,360
back with these kinds of sanguinary belongings. The rebuttal was, look,

3662
04:06:38,520 --> 04:06:41,239
you know our president for this is seventeen eighty nine.

3663
04:06:41,719 --> 04:06:44,000
You know, and if you think the Jacobin's were, you know,

3664
04:06:44,040 --> 04:06:45,840
we're willing to come to the table with royalists and

3665
04:06:46,079 --> 04:06:48,639
and and engaging in horse trading. You know, you're you're

3666
04:06:48,639 --> 04:06:50,760
you're out of your mind or you're a liar, you know,

3667
04:06:51,760 --> 04:06:54,680
and within the bound rationality, they're objectives. They they didn't

3668
04:06:54,680 --> 04:06:58,399
a point. You can't you can't transpose, you can't transpose

3669
04:06:58,440 --> 04:07:03,239
parliamentarism to a body politic where there's no moral consensus.

3670
04:07:04,000 --> 04:07:08,239
And uh, you can't the entire theory of of progressive

3671
04:07:08,280 --> 04:07:12,959
as government with a capital P even that itself uh

3672
04:07:13,920 --> 04:07:19,840
you know as uh, it's epistemic. Priors are basically that

3673
04:07:20,440 --> 04:07:24,799
you know, in conditions where that consensus didn't exist before,

3674
04:07:25,079 --> 04:07:28,440
it has been achieved you know, as a conditioned precedent

3675
04:07:29,200 --> 04:07:32,559
of of a you know, of of of of of

3676
04:07:32,680 --> 04:07:36,520
our program. Okay, so all these things it should become

3677
04:07:36,559 --> 04:07:39,399
clear that kind of like a perfect storm. I mean,

3678
04:07:39,399 --> 04:07:42,479
I it sound corny, but a perfect consolation maybe more

3679
04:07:42,559 --> 04:07:48,120
properly of factors, uh, you know many uh many owing

3680
04:07:48,719 --> 04:07:54,040
to an escapable precedent that set Spain on a uniquely

3681
04:07:54,200 --> 04:07:55,159
kind of tragic course.

3682
04:07:55,520 --> 04:07:59,159
Speaker 1: But also you know, just after yeah, after that uh

3683
04:07:59,559 --> 04:08:00,680
technical difficulty.

3684
04:08:00,920 --> 04:08:05,040
Speaker 2: Uh, that's all good. It's uh, it's kind of nostalgic,

3685
04:08:05,120 --> 04:08:10,559
you know. But the But at the same time, I mean,

3686
04:08:10,639 --> 04:08:13,879
no matter how much you exult the you know, the

3687
04:08:14,360 --> 04:08:16,600
the kind of law of the blade and the barrel

3688
04:08:16,680 --> 04:08:19,680
of a gun over you know, that of the per

3689
04:08:19,719 --> 04:08:23,719
real pen and paper of you know, money and and

3690
04:08:23,840 --> 04:08:32,079
buying your way to to you know, policy realization, no

3691
04:08:32,319 --> 04:08:37,879
matter how much your enthrall the violence and coercion as

3692
04:08:37,920 --> 04:08:43,719
sort of the currency of of of authority, at some

3693
04:08:43,840 --> 04:08:46,479
point that that that sort of runs its course, you know,

3694
04:08:46,600 --> 04:08:49,719
and and it develops, it develops a crisis of legitimacy,

3695
04:08:50,280 --> 04:08:51,799
you know, and and then people get sick of it,

3696
04:08:53,879 --> 04:08:58,120
and this is exactly what happened, and uh the uh

3697
04:08:59,760 --> 04:09:03,559
the uh again once again to the exultatles were overthrown

3698
04:09:03,639 --> 04:09:08,719
by by the French army on uh W which which

3699
04:09:08,799 --> 04:09:12,280
became you know, it's it's interesting because a peculiar kind

3700
04:09:12,319 --> 04:09:17,120
of a peculiar kind of uh interdependence developed, like like

3701
04:09:17,159 --> 04:09:20,200
these multiple French military interventions. You know, this wasn't this

3702
04:09:20,360 --> 04:09:22,959
wasn't like the vermach like assaulting the Soviet Union or

3703
04:09:23,040 --> 04:09:25,719
like the Soviet Union like you know, assaulting Poland or something.

3704
04:09:26,079 --> 04:09:29,680
I mean, yeah, there's always like the deserts category all hostility,

3705
04:09:30,040 --> 04:09:33,120
like the jury in defecto when you're talking about you know,

3706
04:09:33,559 --> 04:09:40,479
armed men of you know, understands of alienage, you know,

3707
04:09:40,559 --> 04:09:46,559
crossing a sovereign frontier. But after uh, after Waterloo, it

3708
04:09:47,159 --> 04:09:52,399
there they just became you know like uh one of

3709
04:09:52,440 --> 04:09:57,840
the checks on uh on anarchy as Spain, you know

3710
04:09:57,959 --> 04:10:02,959
kind of when through this painful nineteenth century was uh,

3711
04:10:03,879 --> 04:10:08,399
you know, a tolerance of not you know, out and

3712
04:10:08,440 --> 04:10:15,159
out acceptance of a French interventionism, uh, you know, beyond

3713
04:10:15,200 --> 04:10:19,280
their their common border, when you know, things appear to

3714
04:10:19,360 --> 04:10:22,639
be careering towards open civil war, and I mean that

3715
04:10:22,760 --> 04:10:25,360
that's that's a tangent, but it is it is interesting

3716
04:10:25,440 --> 04:10:29,360
and it goes to show you that, uh, some of

3717
04:10:29,399 --> 04:10:34,920
the Westphalian paradigm, uh in condition to peace between states

3718
04:10:35,280 --> 04:10:38,799
is a myth like this idea that you know, borders

3719
04:10:38,840 --> 04:10:40,959
are rigid to the point that you know, we can't

3720
04:10:41,000 --> 04:10:44,879
even talk about you know, complex interdependence as having any

3721
04:10:45,120 --> 04:10:48,399
you know sort of sort of high high concern and

3722
04:10:48,520 --> 04:10:54,239
high politics. But to put this in perspective, uh, like

3723
04:10:54,319 --> 04:10:56,520
a dear friend of ours who came to visit me

3724
04:10:56,639 --> 04:11:00,360
the other week, uh he uh he kind of have

3725
04:11:00,440 --> 04:11:03,959
to mail me Stanley G. Paynes, p A Y N

3726
04:11:04,000 --> 04:11:08,600
E E. Like I guess like Max Pain for the

3727
04:11:08,920 --> 04:11:13,239
for the for the gamer bros on the But this

3728
04:11:13,399 --> 04:11:16,719
is this is a very like storied book that and

3729
04:11:16,840 --> 04:11:20,200
and our friend like mailed it to me, which is great.

3730
04:11:20,280 --> 04:11:24,479
So I read it after I got back from jail,

3731
04:11:24,840 --> 04:11:29,399
and it's shocked full of effects and figures and it

3732
04:11:29,520 --> 04:11:33,840
basically deals with uh like the book itself, it basically

3733
04:11:33,879 --> 04:11:37,680
deals with you know what, like the unraveling of the

3734
04:11:37,719 --> 04:11:43,559
Spanish Republic, you know, especially the especially the critical months

3735
04:11:44,760 --> 04:11:48,120
through nineteen thirty five and in nineteen thirty six for

3736
04:11:49,120 --> 04:11:53,079
at the point of the formal onset of hostilities.

3737
04:11:53,159 --> 04:11:58,719
Speaker 1: But people are going to people are going to ask

3738
04:11:58,799 --> 04:11:59,719
what the name of the book is.

3739
04:12:01,239 --> 04:12:05,040
Speaker 2: Oh, it's uh the Collapse of the Spanish Republic. Yeah,

3740
04:12:05,159 --> 04:12:09,079
I'm sorry by Stanley G. Payne again p A Y

3741
04:12:09,680 --> 04:12:12,879
n E. It's kind of thing to do with like

3742
04:12:13,000 --> 04:12:16,399
Marky Mark though, like in MX Pain but that's.

3743
04:12:16,319 --> 04:12:19,440
Speaker 1: Like I have like six books by him, so yeah.

3744
04:12:19,639 --> 04:12:21,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he he's written some great stuff. And like

3745
04:12:21,959 --> 04:12:25,760
I it's not I mean everybody, especially like all I

3746
04:12:25,799 --> 04:12:28,200
really do is is research, man, you know, like it's

3747
04:12:28,280 --> 04:12:31,319
not me like paying something the back about like what

3748
04:12:31,479 --> 04:12:34,840
a good boy I am or something. But even somebody

3749
04:12:34,959 --> 04:12:40,360
like me who's kind of stock in trade is uh

3750
04:12:41,079 --> 04:12:45,799
is academic research. There's there are certain authors that you're

3751
04:12:46,159 --> 04:12:47,680
you know, you're going to rely on more than others,

3752
04:12:47,680 --> 04:12:49,159
and there's gonna be some that just aren't really in

3753
04:12:49,239 --> 04:12:52,360
your personal canon. And like not only do any conceptual

3754
04:12:52,440 --> 04:12:57,879
prejudice or something or judgment on quality, you know, punitive

3755
04:12:58,000 --> 04:13:04,200
or or praising. But for whatever reason, uh pain never

3756
04:13:05,200 --> 04:13:08,719
it sort of entered into my personal canon. So again,

3757
04:13:09,440 --> 04:13:12,280
dude knows who he is who sent us this book,

3758
04:13:12,399 --> 04:13:17,239
and that's awesome and it's been a huge help for

3759
04:13:17,799 --> 04:13:20,440
one of the reasons why it's shocked full of data

3760
04:13:20,840 --> 04:13:24,079
that you know is not i mean not data for

3761
04:13:24,200 --> 04:13:27,360
data's sake, but you know, data of a material add

3762
04:13:27,440 --> 04:13:30,520
entering nature that helps put things into you know, kind

3763
04:13:30,559 --> 04:13:35,159
of high relief as regardless perspective and kind of the

3764
04:13:35,239 --> 04:13:43,200
sequences after from from the Napoleon occupation and or Waterloo onward.

3765
04:13:45,440 --> 04:13:48,319
They got the phases in in in modern Spanish politics

3766
04:13:48,360 --> 04:13:50,920
were you know, from eighteen to white to eighteen fourteen,

3767
04:13:51,559 --> 04:13:55,319
there was a there there there was a leftist regime

3768
04:13:55,399 --> 04:13:59,280
in power, you know, And it's that debut that'd be

3769
04:13:59,639 --> 04:14:02,399
worthy of an entire episode or a couple episodes, like

3770
04:14:02,520 --> 04:14:07,639
what the relationship was of Napoleonism to or Bonapartism to

3771
04:14:07,719 --> 04:14:12,440
Jacobinism and that's that, that's that's that is a Gailian

3772
04:14:13,040 --> 04:14:18,360
processes written all over it. But make no mistake, uh,

3773
04:14:19,200 --> 04:14:22,000
this this was this this this wasn't Neo Jacobin regime

3774
04:14:22,600 --> 04:14:27,159
at the reins during the occupation again from eighteen twenty,

3775
04:14:27,200 --> 04:14:30,479
eighteen twenty three, eighteen thirty five and thirty eight, eight

3776
04:14:30,639 --> 04:14:35,719
fifty and fifty six, sixty eighteen seventy three, nineteen seventeen,

3777
04:14:35,840 --> 04:14:37,840
ninety twenty three, and then of course in nineteen thirty one,

3778
04:14:37,879 --> 04:14:41,239
ninety thirty nine. You know, these were the these these

3779
04:14:41,280 --> 04:14:43,360
are the these are the phases of the or the

3780
04:14:44,600 --> 04:14:48,760
or the electoral cycles or constellation of cycles wherein the

3781
04:14:48,879 --> 04:14:55,959
radical left essentially controlled the entire national government. Okay, and

3782
04:14:56,079 --> 04:14:59,000
again you know, as soon as one as soon as

3783
04:15:00,040 --> 04:15:02,840
as soon as one faction would would lose to the other.

3784
04:15:05,040 --> 04:15:08,360
You know, they every every everything there, everything their outgoing

3785
04:15:08,479 --> 04:15:11,680
enemy had done, what was sabotaged, you know, I mean,

3786
04:15:11,719 --> 04:15:14,319
so it was it was just kind of like stalemate

3787
04:15:14,399 --> 04:15:17,079
by design and government, you know, and I mean that

3788
04:15:17,200 --> 04:15:19,479
that's the case of the center not being able to hold. Also,

3789
04:15:20,280 --> 04:15:23,639
even uh if conditions aren't such that, you know, civil

3790
04:15:23,760 --> 04:15:28,000
war is uh inevitable. You're you're dealing event You're you'ren't

3791
04:15:28,000 --> 04:15:29,479
even a state that eventually is going to become a

3792
04:15:29,520 --> 04:15:35,799
failed state. Okay. The uh, the right wing control of

3793
04:15:35,840 --> 04:15:39,239
the regime, you know, whether it was you know, whether

3794
04:15:39,639 --> 04:15:43,239
whether it was you know, gonna get get conventional Spanish nationalists,

3795
04:15:43,559 --> 04:15:46,319
you know, like Carloss you know, uh, like the just

3796
04:15:46,360 --> 04:15:55,000
like various right wingers you know, they're there their tenure

3797
04:15:56,319 --> 04:15:59,319
or the other phases of of of of government. You know,

3798
04:16:00,079 --> 04:16:05,600
dominance was a you know post water eighteen fourteen, eighteen twenty,

3799
04:16:06,040 --> 04:16:09,319
eighteen twenty three to eighteen thirty three, eighteen thirty nine,

3800
04:16:09,360 --> 04:16:15,440
eighteen fifty four, which is interesting because again Spading an outlier.

3801
04:16:15,760 --> 04:16:19,280
You know, they avoided the eighteen forty eight revolutions because

3802
04:16:20,479 --> 04:16:26,879
you know, the right had the country locked down eighteen fifty,

3803
04:16:27,079 --> 04:16:30,760
eighteen fifty six to eighteen sixty eight, eighteen seventy four,

3804
04:16:31,000 --> 04:16:34,239
ninety seventeen, nineteen twenty three to ninety thirty one, and

3805
04:16:34,360 --> 04:16:38,120
of course nineteen thirty nine to nineteen seventy five. I

3806
04:16:38,200 --> 04:16:42,200
take some exception to that. I don't think we can

3807
04:16:42,319 --> 04:16:47,360
talk about the Franco regime after about nineteen fifty four

3808
04:16:47,959 --> 04:16:54,639
as being rightest. I just don't. Okay, Again, it was

3809
04:16:54,760 --> 04:17:01,319
in another example of Spain being a remarkable outlier. But

3810
04:17:01,760 --> 04:17:07,520
I accept what Pain is getting at. And again that

3811
04:17:07,719 --> 04:17:13,200
same paradigm was re emergent. Uh. It wasn't you know,

3812
04:17:13,319 --> 04:17:19,680
there was it wasn't bloody and uh and and who

3813
04:17:20,280 --> 04:17:23,879
almost apocalyptic like as is the case with the Seals

3814
04:17:23,920 --> 04:17:27,600
our regime, you know, which Uh, and Sellers are the

3815
04:17:27,639 --> 04:17:30,600
fascinating guy. And you know, and the and the and

3816
04:17:30,639 --> 04:17:34,479
the the Portuguese were we're fighting alongside the Rhodesians against

3817
04:17:34,520 --> 04:17:38,559
the communists, you know, for for decades in Africa. You

3818
04:17:38,639 --> 04:17:44,680
know Ian Smith, who who is It's not like his

3819
04:17:44,840 --> 04:17:49,520
pros is particularly elegant or like edifying. And I'm not

3820
04:17:49,600 --> 04:17:53,319
saying that ahead of State should bother with that. But

3821
04:17:53,520 --> 04:17:56,280
if people are looking for a book that provides that

3822
04:17:56,360 --> 04:17:59,639
sort of inspiration and kind of pleasurable reading, that's not

3823
04:17:59,719 --> 04:18:04,280
the for you. But there's key insights into the mind

3824
04:18:04,319 --> 04:18:06,879
of Ian Smith. And Smith's talks about Salizar is a

3825
04:18:06,959 --> 04:18:09,600
truly great man. You know. He said, if a Salezar

3826
04:18:09,639 --> 04:18:11,959
could have hung on, you know, for two or three

3827
04:18:12,000 --> 04:18:15,399
more years, we probably could have you know, we probably

3828
04:18:15,440 --> 04:18:17,680
could have smashed you know, like zany U p F

3829
04:18:17,799 --> 04:18:21,079
and you know, and and you know and and and

3830
04:18:21,159 --> 04:18:28,559
the proxies of the the warsawf hect. But it's it's uh,

3831
04:18:30,079 --> 04:18:32,079
but again that you know, they're they're like like Franco,

3832
04:18:32,239 --> 04:18:37,360
wasn't Salizar And Uh, there was no carnation or revolution

3833
04:18:37,639 --> 04:18:43,719
or whatever. The uh. The Progressive Uprising against Salazar was

3834
04:18:43,840 --> 04:18:46,239
branded memory fails me at the minute. I'm still kind

3835
04:18:46,239 --> 04:18:49,040
of shaken off the weekend. But I don't mean I

3836
04:18:49,200 --> 04:18:52,319
was out like chasing skirt and like guzzling scotch or something.

3837
04:18:52,399 --> 04:18:54,239
I mean like I got my ass kicked this weekend

3838
04:18:54,280 --> 04:19:00,600
and it hurt my brain. But the uh another thing

3839
04:19:00,680 --> 04:19:06,000
to consider too, you know, the uh, the strong suit.

3840
04:19:06,559 --> 04:19:12,319
I think inarguably in every other state where you know

3841
04:19:13,000 --> 04:19:19,639
radicals and or Bolsheviks and or you know, ideological offshoots,

3842
04:19:19,639 --> 04:19:23,040
you know, whether they were you know, left wing syndical lists,

3843
04:19:23,959 --> 04:19:29,079
you know, uh, anarcho syndical lists, like anarchists. I mean,

3844
04:19:29,159 --> 04:19:31,559
even among the anarchists, there was a kind of rigid

3845
04:19:31,680 --> 04:19:37,360
cadre structure whereby the inner discipline of the party and

3846
04:19:37,440 --> 04:19:41,559
it's cadres was what carried the day and allowed them

3847
04:19:41,680 --> 04:19:46,680
to allow, you know, and carry them to victory. In Spain,

3848
04:19:48,799 --> 04:19:52,079
the Spanish left, it was even more naked, least sectarian,

3849
04:19:52,600 --> 04:19:59,680
personal like characterized by the faux messianic delusions of individual

3850
04:20:00,120 --> 04:20:03,719
like players within it. It was, you know, it was

3851
04:20:03,799 --> 04:20:06,920
it was pointlessly like inwardly directed and secretive, like these

3852
04:20:06,959 --> 04:20:09,719
guys were constantly at war with each other, you know,

3853
04:20:10,719 --> 04:20:14,479
far far far more than and far more fractious than

3854
04:20:14,479 --> 04:20:17,200
the right wing was, you know. And that's the only

3855
04:20:17,319 --> 04:20:21,639
state like that. And that's not me saying like I mean,

3856
04:20:21,680 --> 04:20:24,879
the right wing is a lot more organic, okay, and

3857
04:20:25,159 --> 04:20:30,520
uh and that you know, and and it's it doesn't emerge,

3858
04:20:30,559 --> 04:20:32,760
it didn't. It doesn't emerge from some you know, from

3859
04:20:32,799 --> 04:20:37,879
from a literal central committee. Okay. It's that there's there's

3860
04:20:37,920 --> 04:20:41,639
there's reasons of a structural and sociological and historical nature.

3861
04:20:42,159 --> 04:20:47,200
Like conventionally, you know, the modern uh radical left has

3862
04:20:47,239 --> 04:20:54,360
more internal discipline than the right. Okay. But that's why

3863
04:20:54,440 --> 04:20:57,120
it's so striking that in Spain like this was it

3864
04:20:57,239 --> 04:21:02,239
was literally the opposite, you know. And it also explains

3865
04:21:02,280 --> 04:21:06,159
why there were things started when the Behrmacht intervened, you know,

3866
04:21:06,239 --> 04:21:09,760
in von Toma's uh uh you know counter legion and

3867
04:21:09,840 --> 04:21:14,879
von Toma's tanks and you know these uh and and

3868
04:21:15,000 --> 04:21:19,120
he's been any stud like battlefield commanders, and Franco had

3869
04:21:19,280 --> 04:21:23,079
had a great eye for for like company level officers.

3870
04:21:23,200 --> 04:21:24,639
I don't know what they're equivalent of be in Spanish

3871
04:21:24,719 --> 04:21:27,479
dury of the day, but like like junior officers, so

3872
04:21:27,600 --> 04:21:29,799
you need, you know, to be like platoon leaders and

3873
04:21:29,840 --> 04:21:34,399
company commanders like Franco and Franco's staff, like they they

3874
04:21:34,479 --> 04:21:37,120
knew how to culture that kind of talent. Okay, So

3875
04:21:37,680 --> 04:21:40,479
by the time these pressures came to bear, like politically,

3876
04:21:41,520 --> 04:21:44,399
like the French left is like falling apart, you know,

3877
04:21:45,319 --> 04:21:48,000
and not even uh, not even you know, not even

3878
04:21:48,000 --> 04:21:49,559
the n k v D on the ground, not even

3879
04:21:49,639 --> 04:21:52,239
dudes like Eric Milk, like you know, just like whacking

3880
04:21:52,319 --> 04:21:54,920
people who just like you know, just cause like he

3881
04:21:55,000 --> 04:21:58,719
was probably an asshole anyway, and you know, he his

3882
04:21:59,200 --> 04:22:01,120
you know, he he wasn't doing what he had to

3883
04:22:01,239 --> 04:22:05,639
do to you know, sustain like internal discipline you know,

3884
04:22:05,760 --> 04:22:08,280
within his own chain of command and stuff. Like even

3885
04:22:08,319 --> 04:22:12,840
with all that like conventionally like almost comically it's not

3886
04:22:12,959 --> 04:22:15,360
common when they're talking about like extreme brutality, but that

3887
04:22:15,680 --> 04:22:17,399
kind of like you know, even even that kind of

3888
04:22:17,440 --> 04:22:20,600
like ridiculous level of like stalinists like you know, like

3889
04:22:20,840 --> 04:22:23,840
compliance through like massive brutal violence like this just still

3890
04:22:23,879 --> 04:22:27,600
couldn't even like phase like this function of the process

3891
04:22:27,799 --> 04:22:34,719
they just enumerated and towards the end two you know,

3892
04:22:35,159 --> 04:22:42,120
talking about Spain being ironically you know, decades and in

3893
04:22:42,239 --> 04:22:45,600
the case of the Spanish moundern state emergence, you know,

3894
04:22:45,680 --> 04:22:49,360
a century you know, ahead of the rest of the continent.

3895
04:22:51,479 --> 04:22:55,079
The first uh, the first the first attempt to truly

3896
04:22:55,239 --> 04:23:00,520
organize like a trade like a trade union that you know,

3897
04:23:01,479 --> 04:23:05,159
with an eye for the ability to ultimately you know,

3898
04:23:06,319 --> 04:23:10,239
extoric concessions to general strike that occurred as early as

3899
04:23:10,280 --> 04:23:13,719
the eighteen thirties, okay, like decades before the American War

3900
04:23:13,760 --> 04:23:17,000
between the States. You know, there's guys in Spain, you

3901
04:23:17,040 --> 04:23:19,440
know who we're talking like a narcocynic list and like

3902
04:23:19,479 --> 04:23:22,920
talking talking like Marphus Leninist. You know, that's pretty crazy

3903
04:23:24,079 --> 04:23:28,319
and pretty remarkable, all right, especially again we consider that,

3904
04:23:29,200 --> 04:23:31,959
you know, it's I'm not like trading Spain like Spain.

3905
04:23:32,120 --> 04:23:35,000
Spain is fucking incredible. But you know, we're not talking

3906
04:23:35,000 --> 04:23:37,319
about like terrorists, and we're not talking about like Berlin,

3907
04:23:37,959 --> 04:23:40,040
and we're not talking about like London. You know, we're

3908
04:23:40,040 --> 04:23:43,159
talking about Spain. In some cases, you know, like very

3909
04:23:43,239 --> 04:23:47,360
provincial places in Spain that you know, not only weren't

3910
04:23:47,440 --> 04:23:52,520
known for their their kind of cosmopolitan embrace of anxietic ideologies,

3911
04:23:53,120 --> 04:23:54,680
you know, and things that just kind of like tickle

3912
04:23:54,719 --> 04:23:57,479
the fantasy of aristocrats just you know, thought experiments that

3913
04:23:57,559 --> 04:23:59,879
can be played out with real people.

3914
04:24:02,000 --> 04:24:02,159
Speaker 1: You know.

3915
04:24:02,879 --> 04:24:06,719
Speaker 2: Uh, these guys were thinking and absolutely in like twentieth

3916
04:24:06,760 --> 04:24:09,239
century terms, but they were doing so a century early,

3917
04:24:09,760 --> 04:24:12,440
you know, and they were doing so amiss uh uh

3918
04:24:13,280 --> 04:24:17,360
you know a state that was that was still like

3919
04:24:17,520 --> 04:24:20,040
you know, almost entirely like a Greary and in terms

3920
04:24:20,079 --> 04:24:27,879
of U its local uh it's local economic output that

3921
04:24:28,680 --> 04:24:32,719
a Cyrus says in the Warriors is a miracle. But

3922
04:24:33,959 --> 04:24:40,319
Giuseppe Finelli, he was an early uh figure of advance

3923
04:24:40,440 --> 04:24:46,200
of importance within h the post Jacobin but pre Leninist

3924
04:24:46,479 --> 04:24:51,719
left and he arrived in Spain and in eighteen sixty

3925
04:24:51,799 --> 04:24:56,799
eight he'd been a great admirer of Bekunen, you know

3926
04:24:57,040 --> 04:25:00,920
who is Marx's uh great opponent in the first International

3927
04:25:02,600 --> 04:25:05,639
Just seti finelle. You were here at to Madrid without

3928
04:25:05,680 --> 04:25:09,120
speaking any Spanish. He basically had no money, but he said,

3929
04:25:09,200 --> 04:25:12,200
look and and people like he was crazy, but he said, look,

3930
04:25:12,639 --> 04:25:15,440
he's like the idea as he called it, you know,

3931
04:25:15,600 --> 04:25:19,600
because guy, you know, uh, paris of thought. You know,

3932
04:25:19,680 --> 04:25:21,559
we'd call it the faith even though that's what it is.

3933
04:25:21,639 --> 04:25:26,399
It's an Aristos faith, he said. The idea, uh he said,

3934
04:25:26,520 --> 04:25:29,159
he said, look, this is the most fertile, like, this

3935
04:25:29,239 --> 04:25:34,959
is almost fertile ground. You know, we can find for

3936
04:25:35,760 --> 04:25:38,760
you know, for for Marxism on the content. Okay. Uh,

3937
04:25:39,159 --> 04:25:42,520
there's literally no more like fertile proverbial fertile soil than

3938
04:25:42,559 --> 04:25:47,200
the Spanish body politic to embrace Marxism. Okay, and uh

3939
04:25:47,799 --> 04:25:54,000
he was right, Okay, rapidly Uh Uh, this kind of

3940
04:25:55,559 --> 04:25:59,319
this this abundance of sex just popped up, you know,

3941
04:25:59,440 --> 04:26:03,200
like and or guess libertarian, you know, anarcho, cynical lists,

3942
04:26:03,600 --> 04:26:07,000
you know, independent socialists, like every everything you can possibly

3943
04:26:07,040 --> 04:26:12,399
think of. Okay, and again that ultimately served like the

3944
04:26:13,440 --> 04:26:17,040
like the the inherent fractiousness and and sort of anarchic

3945
04:26:17,360 --> 04:26:22,760
nature of that political culture of uh the post Jacob

3946
04:26:22,840 --> 04:26:25,959
and left in Spain. I mean that cost him the war.

3947
04:26:27,399 --> 04:26:29,959
And it's not I I don't accept the kind of

3948
04:26:30,639 --> 04:26:33,479
Thomas Pain idea that like the more the more you

3949
04:26:33,559 --> 04:26:36,600
hold an endless conversation, you know, the more like marvelous

3950
04:26:36,680 --> 04:26:39,200
things just kind of like emerge out of motherfucker's mouths.

3951
04:26:39,639 --> 04:26:43,799
But uh, but my point is that there was a

3952
04:26:44,440 --> 04:26:48,479
there was a remarkably developed intellectual culture on the ground

3953
04:26:48,600 --> 04:26:59,000
as regardless politics and uh, you know, political theory unless

3954
04:26:59,000 --> 04:27:01,159
you're talking to like and like you're really talking about

3955
04:27:01,159 --> 04:27:03,559
like Straussian types or just like you know, positing like

3956
04:27:04,159 --> 04:27:08,920
you know, like values claims and and trying to mind

3957
04:27:08,959 --> 04:27:11,040
cloud from the fact that you know, they call themselves

3958
04:27:11,120 --> 04:27:14,159
philosophers or something like if you're talking about if you're

3959
04:27:14,159 --> 04:27:18,200
talking about polable theory, you're talking about you know, you're

3960
04:27:18,200 --> 04:27:21,040
you're talking about it imagining the architecture of the state

3961
04:27:21,639 --> 04:27:25,040
as an instrumentality of what you want to accomplish, and

3962
04:27:25,879 --> 04:27:29,159
you're imagining, you know, how that can be structured in

3963
04:27:29,280 --> 04:27:33,840
order to accomplish those objectives. Okay, so it is essential

3964
04:27:33,879 --> 04:27:37,239
to any revolutionary enterprise. Okay, yeah, there can be too

3965
04:27:37,280 --> 04:27:42,360
many theorists and too few uh you know, partisans. But

3966
04:27:42,920 --> 04:27:48,719
the the converse is just as self defeating. Okay, I'm

3967
04:27:48,719 --> 04:27:50,200
sure there's those who are gonna say, that's like my

3968
04:27:50,239 --> 04:27:56,120
egghead prejudice. It's not. It's not, I don't it's but

3969
04:27:56,280 --> 04:28:00,799
it's inarguable. Okay, it's not. It's not something that it's

3970
04:28:00,840 --> 04:28:03,719
not something that political theory geeks just insisted upon, is

3971
04:28:04,479 --> 04:28:11,840
as a code or whatever. But the what did prevail

3972
04:28:12,079 --> 04:28:15,440
initially in terms of the dominant strain. Now bear in

3973
04:28:15,559 --> 04:28:20,040
mind epistemic priors that informed that everyone in the radical

3974
04:28:20,159 --> 04:28:26,239
left were one hundred percent Marxist in nature. But the

3975
04:28:26,399 --> 04:28:33,040
practical tendency, ideological tendency that became, you know, most dominant,

3976
04:28:33,239 --> 04:28:39,120
very rapidly. Wash we're things of an anarchist nature, okay.

3977
04:28:40,079 --> 04:28:45,040
And in the early days it was the largest force

3978
04:28:45,159 --> 04:28:49,040
within the urban working class of Spain. Small that as

3979
04:28:49,079 --> 04:28:53,120
it was, but again it was it was the it

3980
04:28:53,200 --> 04:28:56,639
was supposed to act as the vanguard. Okay, it wasn't

3981
04:28:56,799 --> 04:29:01,360
you know, a question of taking a head count. And

3982
04:29:01,479 --> 04:29:04,159
there's a lot of reasons why anarchism appealed so much

3983
04:29:04,799 --> 04:29:06,959
to this population, you know, a lot of which we

3984
04:29:07,200 --> 04:29:11,559
just got into. But also something that the left in

3985
04:29:11,600 --> 04:29:14,840
Spain realized very early on, was there, like, look, okay,

3986
04:29:15,399 --> 04:29:18,959
the structure of this state entails things, you know, like

3987
04:29:19,079 --> 04:29:24,239
the Roman church, you know, and uh entails things you

3988
04:29:24,319 --> 04:29:28,120
know like uh like chartered like chartered companies you know,

3989
04:29:28,159 --> 04:29:31,079
that are bound up with the private fortunes of aristocrats.

3990
04:29:31,559 --> 04:29:35,760
You know. The very architecture for the state is like

3991
04:29:35,920 --> 04:29:39,799
teams with teams with the hostility to our objectives. So

3992
04:29:40,120 --> 04:29:44,639
we've got to create parallel institutions. Okay, So we're gonna

3993
04:29:44,680 --> 04:29:46,840
have you know, like the workers Relieve organization. You know,

3994
04:29:46,920 --> 04:29:48,600
We're not We're not. We're not gonna go to you know,

3995
04:29:49,040 --> 04:29:51,920
like the monastic order is to like help out widows

3996
04:29:52,000 --> 04:29:54,399
of like the men of ours who die. Okay, Like

3997
04:29:54,920 --> 04:29:58,799
you know, we're not We're not. We're not gonna We're not.

3998
04:29:58,840 --> 04:30:00,840
We're not gonna try and capture or you know, the

3999
04:30:01,319 --> 04:30:06,280
like the local constables office and in Catalonia or whatever.

4000
04:30:06,680 --> 04:30:08,840
You know, like we're gonna we're gonna maintain our own

4001
04:30:08,840 --> 04:30:11,959
countrey discipline. You know. We're also gonna like handle our

4002
04:30:12,000 --> 04:30:14,959
own like justice. You know, we're never gonna rely upon

4003
04:30:15,760 --> 04:30:19,680
you know, the state or any of it's some affiliated

4004
04:30:20,680 --> 04:30:23,799
institutions and bureaucracies, you know, to guarantee as a justice

4005
04:30:23,879 --> 04:30:25,799
or anything else. And we started as we started death.

4006
04:30:25,879 --> 04:30:29,719
But that's the way it's going to be. And that

4007
04:30:30,280 --> 04:30:35,760
is something enduring too that basically everybody imitated, even even

4008
04:30:35,879 --> 04:30:38,159
even even the fastest and the National Socialist to some

4009
04:30:38,319 --> 04:30:44,120
degree imitated that, okay, because it's just in ah, in

4010
04:30:44,200 --> 04:30:48,239
a political warfare situation, especially during a long struggle, like

4011
04:30:48,360 --> 04:30:52,440
you you just have to do that, okay. And also

4012
04:30:52,680 --> 04:30:56,719
then you know you have you have new institutions and

4013
04:30:56,840 --> 04:30:59,200
being that you know, have never had sort of the

4014
04:30:59,319 --> 04:31:02,959
sovereign authority of the state behind them, but they have.

4015
04:31:03,239 --> 04:31:06,840
They have acted in authoritative capacities on mayors of life

4016
04:31:06,879 --> 04:31:10,159
and death. And in some cases their existence is going

4017
04:31:10,239 --> 04:31:13,319
back decades. And you know, they had existed as you know,

4018
04:31:13,879 --> 04:31:17,760
floating like sovereigns and to themselves, you know, in the

4019
04:31:17,799 --> 04:31:20,239
fact that they commanded you know, they commanded controlled you know,

4020
04:31:20,799 --> 04:31:23,120
tens of thousands of men under arms. You know, they

4021
04:31:23,159 --> 04:31:26,840
had operational areas that constituted like you know, territory they

4022
04:31:26,879 --> 04:31:30,120
literally held. You know, at some point people are talking

4023
04:31:30,799 --> 04:31:33,840
symantics when they're like, oh, that's not really a government,

4024
04:31:33,959 --> 04:31:36,760
So what are you talking about? Why, you know what,

4025
04:31:37,399 --> 04:31:39,520
why would you even care about you know, why would

4026
04:31:39,520 --> 04:31:42,920
you gonna go to that trouble trying to replace the

4027
04:31:44,319 --> 04:31:48,040
you know, pre pre existing institutions of of of state.

4028
04:31:48,280 --> 04:31:54,120
Well that's that's why this shouldn't be it shouldn't be mysterious.

4029
04:31:56,760 --> 04:32:01,799
And finally, uh or I mean not related. It wasn't

4030
04:32:01,920 --> 04:32:04,200
just that the church, uh and in Spain we can

4031
04:32:04,239 --> 04:32:06,719
talk about the church because I mean Spain, the Spanish

4032
04:32:06,799 --> 04:32:13,719
are a Catholic people, you know it UH, the UH

4033
04:32:14,840 --> 04:32:17,360
that the Spanish left view they view they viewed the

4034
04:32:17,440 --> 04:32:20,360
Church and they viewed UH. Despite the fact that I

4035
04:32:20,440 --> 04:32:23,440
mean that there's a delicious irony to fern in Isabella,

4036
04:32:23,840 --> 04:32:29,959
you know, basically removing the mandate of UH of the

4037
04:32:30,040 --> 04:32:34,159
Holy See to render a judgment on power political questions

4038
04:32:34,159 --> 04:32:37,000
of war in peace. Well, at the same time you know,

4039
04:32:38,840 --> 04:32:42,040
enforcing UH, you know, the moral law according to the

4040
04:32:42,159 --> 04:32:46,680
understanding of of UH the papacy in a way sight

4041
04:32:46,760 --> 04:32:50,079
and seen probably for five hundred years. And there's also

4042
04:32:51,840 --> 04:32:55,799
there's also a UH. There's also a real irony in guys,

4043
04:32:56,079 --> 04:32:58,840
you know, like waving a red banner as they charging

4044
04:32:58,920 --> 04:33:03,719
a combat, you know, demanding you know, social justice basically

4045
04:33:04,000 --> 04:33:06,360
you know, a side of the Marxist gobbly Gook. They're

4046
04:33:06,400 --> 04:33:10,560
basically saying, like, we're Catholic people, you know who need

4047
04:33:11,159 --> 04:33:13,520
you know, who need a Catholic Church to sort of

4048
04:33:13,560 --> 04:33:16,479
act as their mediary between us and there would be

4049
04:33:16,680 --> 04:33:20,360
class oppressors or aggressors, you know, Yet we reject the

4050
04:33:20,400 --> 04:33:24,680
Kaolic Church and want to destroy it. But again, the

4051
04:33:24,799 --> 04:33:29,439
internal logic of it of the enterprise. That's what they

4052
04:33:29,439 --> 04:33:31,639
would have had to do, Okay, and that's one of

4053
04:33:31,680 --> 04:33:34,799
the reasons people recognize us on some level, even people

4054
04:33:34,840 --> 04:33:39,400
who aren't, you know, ultra sophisticated. Now that I'm so sophisticated,

4055
04:33:39,400 --> 04:33:40,840
but I mean, we spend all day like reading about

4056
04:33:40,880 --> 04:33:47,560
this stuff. But you know, the uh, it's it should

4057
04:33:47,680 --> 04:33:52,240
uh it should become clear, you know, at least in

4058
04:33:52,479 --> 04:34:00,560
part why some of these so these peculiarities became you know,

4059
04:34:01,000 --> 04:34:04,759
not just sort of you know, quirkly identified with the

4060
04:34:04,799 --> 04:34:09,240
Spanish modern state, but somehow inextricably bound off with like

4061
04:34:09,400 --> 04:34:16,560
it's it's it's it's essence, you know. And that's and

4062
04:34:16,680 --> 04:34:18,720
that's about all I got for today. Man. Again, I'm

4063
04:34:18,720 --> 04:34:25,000
still kind of recovering from my from my my vacation

4064
04:34:26,000 --> 04:34:30,599
the Cook County at the Cook County Resort and hotel.

4065
04:34:31,599 --> 04:34:34,799
But I thought it was important to cover because we're

4066
04:34:34,799 --> 04:34:37,880
gonna come back to a lot of these aspects and

4067
04:34:37,959 --> 04:34:39,680
I didn't want it to be I didn't want them

4068
04:34:39,720 --> 04:34:43,759
to be issues the first impression, you know, as they

4069
04:34:43,840 --> 04:34:49,080
kind of re emerged. But I promise when we recorded next,

4070
04:34:49,439 --> 04:34:54,439
we'll we'll get into you know, general Franco arriving back

4071
04:34:54,479 --> 04:34:58,639
from Morocco and you know kind of how battle resolved.

4072
04:35:00,000 --> 04:35:05,880
I mean, uh, you know, between the Nationalist element and

4073
04:35:06,080 --> 04:35:09,360
UH counter Legion and the Hermacht and and Thomas tanks,

4074
04:35:10,000 --> 04:35:12,560
you know, and the UH and and the Reds and

4075
04:35:13,040 --> 04:35:16,560
and Republicans all in Sundry. Does that sound good?

4076
04:35:17,119 --> 04:35:20,599
Speaker 1: Sounds great? Plug away?

4077
04:35:21,240 --> 04:35:30,360
Speaker 2: What? Yes, sir, I'm still playing catch up, but I'm

4078
04:35:31,639 --> 04:35:35,000
as I've disclosed the people, you know, the last few weeks,

4079
04:35:36,319 --> 04:35:39,959
me and my my crime partner Rake where we are.

4080
04:35:41,240 --> 04:35:44,000
We're trying at a feverish pace to get season two

4081
04:35:44,000 --> 04:35:46,840
of the podcast up and running, and I promise it

4082
04:35:46,880 --> 04:35:50,000
will be in the next few weeks, you know. In

4083
04:35:50,040 --> 04:35:53,040
the meantime, I'm gonna be uploading a lot of free stuff,

4084
04:35:54,000 --> 04:35:57,880
you know, to the sub stack, Like today, I I

4085
04:35:57,959 --> 04:36:01,159
just upload an interview with uh a friend of mine, like,

4086
04:36:01,400 --> 04:36:03,639
you know, an older dude who uh who knew Jeff

4087
04:36:03,720 --> 04:36:06,919
Fort and he banged with the l Ruken here in Chicago.

4088
04:36:08,319 --> 04:36:10,240
I'm gonna be I gonna when I you know, I'm

4089
04:36:10,279 --> 04:36:11,840
gonna be dropping a lot of that kind of stuff

4090
04:36:12,959 --> 04:36:16,439
until we kind of formally relaunched the brand. I've been

4091
04:36:16,479 --> 04:36:18,479
doing I've been recording a lot with Nico Kloud, who's

4092
04:36:18,479 --> 04:36:23,720
a fascinating guy, an artist, and every controversial figure that's

4093
04:36:23,720 --> 04:36:27,639
gonna he's gonna feature heavily in season two. But you

4094
04:36:27,759 --> 04:36:32,240
can find the substick in the pod at Real Thomas

4095
04:36:32,439 --> 04:36:37,360
seven seven seven, that substick dot com. Uh. You can

4096
04:36:37,400 --> 04:36:41,040
find me on Twitter, but my tweets are protected. People

4097
04:36:41,119 --> 04:36:43,479
tell me Twitter is not censoring as aggressively as before,

4098
04:36:43,599 --> 04:36:47,119
but I've literally hit my accounts new so many times

4099
04:36:47,799 --> 04:36:50,639
for you know, and number once if I.

4100
04:36:51,000 --> 04:36:53,400
Speaker 1: I got suspended for twelve hours yesterday and they didn't

4101
04:36:53,400 --> 04:36:54,119
even tell me why.

4102
04:36:54,680 --> 04:36:56,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean if there's just like crazy

4103
04:36:56,959 --> 04:36:59,880
bullshit even when the commissars aren't you know, like busily

4104
04:37:00,159 --> 04:37:02,279
like and excited, I mean, it's like it's like it's

4105
04:37:02,319 --> 04:37:04,880
like born to them or something to just like censor people,

4106
04:37:04,919 --> 04:37:08,439
I think, because they're fucking freaks. But uh, point being like,

4107
04:37:08,520 --> 04:37:11,360
I do protect my tweets because I seems to be

4108
04:37:11,479 --> 04:37:13,880
the only way to like not be fucking nuke them,

4109
04:37:14,639 --> 04:37:19,000
you know, just arbitrar early. But you can find you

4110
04:37:19,000 --> 04:37:21,720
can always find me on my website. It's just Thomas

4111
04:37:21,759 --> 04:37:24,840
seven seven seven dot com number seven eight twenty seven

4112
04:37:24,919 --> 04:37:28,000
seven seven dot com. That's where all my like fresh

4113
04:37:28,040 --> 04:37:31,479
stuff like appears. It's still like somewhat under construction, but

4114
04:37:33,119 --> 04:37:37,720
you can that will always be around. Okay. And as uh,

4115
04:37:39,240 --> 04:37:42,000
people keep asking about the channel content that is coming

4116
04:37:42,080 --> 04:37:44,439
to I haven't figured out exactly how I want to

4117
04:37:44,479 --> 04:37:47,560
integrate it with the pod. I want some I don't

4118
04:37:47,560 --> 04:37:49,159
want to just be like a mirror of the pod.

4119
04:37:49,279 --> 04:37:52,000
But with video, I mean, if people want sign some

4120
04:37:52,080 --> 04:37:54,200
people like that and they just like listening to stuff,

4121
04:37:54,200 --> 04:37:57,599
I'm like to see your YouTube, I'll do that. But

4122
04:37:57,799 --> 04:38:00,720
I do want some original video content. I didn't want

4123
04:38:00,759 --> 04:38:03,639
primarily that the channel to be that like one thing

4124
04:38:03,680 --> 04:38:09,040
at a time, and I'm uh, I want to I'm yeah,

4125
04:38:09,119 --> 04:38:11,720
And it's but that that's that's basically where we're at. Okay,

4126
04:38:12,360 --> 04:38:16,520
and just keep uh, just keep your eyes peeled for

4127
04:38:17,080 --> 04:38:20,360
like fresh stuff because I'm gonna be uploading I'm gonna

4128
04:38:20,360 --> 04:38:22,360
be uploading a ton of like just free stuff like

4129
04:38:22,400 --> 04:38:26,680
at it today every several days. And when when the

4130
04:38:26,759 --> 04:38:29,680
season two of the pod launches, all season one content

4131
04:38:29,840 --> 04:38:34,000
is going to become free immediately, and it it will

4132
04:38:34,119 --> 04:38:37,360
be dope like and when I say like rebranding, like

4133
04:38:37,599 --> 04:38:40,040
we've got the resources and and kind of the knowledge

4134
04:38:40,520 --> 04:38:42,880
as well as you know, sort of like the you know,

4135
04:38:42,959 --> 04:38:44,959
a higher profile in terms of the people who are

4136
04:38:45,080 --> 04:38:48,439
willing to work with us, you know, like like Nego Cloud,

4137
04:38:48,680 --> 04:38:51,080
like yourself. I'm not seeing you guys are like similar

4138
04:38:51,159 --> 04:38:57,840
people and understand okay, okay, but and uh and and

4139
04:38:57,959 --> 04:39:00,360
people like you know my friend Big d you know

4140
04:39:00,400 --> 04:39:02,880
who drove his system when you're honest about the old Ruken.

4141
04:39:03,439 --> 04:39:08,720
But uh, like we're popping quite splendidly and that that

4142
04:39:08,959 --> 04:39:12,439
that's you know, I'm allowing for other potentialities. So yeah,

4143
04:39:12,479 --> 04:39:15,880
I won't I won't hold up the recording anymore. Man.

4144
04:39:16,400 --> 04:39:18,639
That's that's all I got. Thank you so much, And

4145
04:39:18,759 --> 04:39:21,720
thank you again for like the trans love and concern

4146
04:39:21,880 --> 04:39:25,400
for me when you know I went dark on account

4147
04:39:25,439 --> 04:39:28,959
of being arrested. Like I really mean that. I got

4148
04:39:29,080 --> 04:39:31,840
huge love for all of our friends, a.

4149
04:39:32,000 --> 04:39:32,959
Speaker 1: Man, I appreciate it.

4150
04:39:33,040 --> 04:39:33,279
Speaker 2: Thank you,