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Support and do it there. Thank you. I want to
welcome everyone back to the Pekingana Show. How are you
doing today, Thomas.
Speaker 2: And well, thanks as always for hosting me on this
fine day. Yeah, it's another's day, so good fortune. Then
long life till the mom's up too.
Speaker 1: Which mine was still around. Likewise, Yeah, all right, so
this is long awaited. A lot of people have asked
for this. I'm excited about this. Start talking about the
Spanish Civil War. Just start going. I'll interrupt if I
have any questions. Let me let me start off with
an easy one. When was the first time you started
looking at the Spanish Civil War?
Speaker 2: I mean, for me, it was pretty early on, because
it's something that was mythologized very much. I remember when
I was like a teenager in college age, you know,
like in my late team's early twenties. There was this
great mythology spun around the communist side, which is euphemistically
referred to as like the Republican side. I mean that
it's like the who was arming and equipping and providing
nkvduh functionaries to slaughter people behind the lines. It was
the Soviet Union doing it, Okay, you weren't. They weren't
fighting and create like twenty first century Sweden. Not that
would be any great shakes either, but you know then,
oh and you know, we there was some Russians there too,
so that that didn't make any sense. And the you know,
as I got into before, before consumer internet was a thing,
you know, like I've said, you had to rely basically
on the resources of your local library. And I was
blessed in that regards Chicago Land or stuff like the
Institute for Historical Review and uh the I h R.
They they were always putting out stuff related to condoor religion. Okay,
I mean in part because there's a lot of like
aviation buff old guys like buying their stuff, I assume.
But it's also guys like Mark Weber or whatever. I
guess he goes by, you know, and uh, and some
a lot a lot of their kind of best contributors
and editors they were. They were always coming back to
the war in Spain, you know, the Battle in Spain,
how that how that shaped you know, conceptual horizons strategically,
and how it was really you know, kind of the
precursor to everything that followed. And it was uh, you know,
like I said, I I think it was Sleean who
said that, you know, Stalingrad is where left and right
Hegelians met to set all their differences. That first time
that happened was in Spain, okay, even on their visioness side,
though the misconceptions, like I I'm going to get into
some of that today. Like David Irving is kind of
even though people view him as this kind of like
art revisionist, in a lot of ways, he's not. And
I mean I think he's he's he's the historian of
the Third Rich and he's just like a great individual,
but he's he mischaracterizes the political situation there relative to
the combatants. And I'll get into what I mean by that,
but I mean it was basically my interest in the
Spanish War was concomitant with you know, my interest in
the Third Reich in the second World of the war,
because I came to realize that these things were inextricably
connected as well as you know, it's like why there's
a number there's a lot of conflicts where people try
to finesse the true nature of the combatants, you know,
owing to ideological prejudices. Like I mean that that was
in my own lifetime. I mean that that happened in
you know, nicarrog when I'll Salvador. That's what like our
dear friend Dan, who's an expert on that, you know,
he's been taking the oral histories of of a nationalist veterans. Uh,
you know Salvador, you know, that's why I hosted him
on the pot and I hope to again. But you know,
so I pretty quickly realized that it was imperative the
kind of deep dive into into the Spanish War, but
also Spain. There's a lot of a tragic character to Spain,
and Spain is really I mean despite the fact, or
maybe because of the fact, I you know, and I'm
not saying it does not a value loaded statement that
you know, the Vatican is in Rome, like Spain, Spain
kind of lived out in the most kind of sanguinary ways,
you know, like uh, like the Catholic historical experience, you know,
whether it was you know, the centuries along Riconquista against Islam,
which like other Europeans unless you count you know, people
in the bulk in the in the Balkans like weren't
dealing with that, you know, like and uh, you know,
just the relationship of the the clergy to the monarchy.
But also I mean again ironically, and we'll get into
this too in a minute. The reason Machiavelli, you constantly
invoked the example of Ferdinand and Isabella. It's because Spain,
despite the fact that they despite the fact that they
remain kind of feudal in like their sensibilities. You know,
even until the the early twentieth century, Spain was the
first truly kind of Westphalian national state, like before Westphalia,
you know, where where you had a truly absolute monarch
and the and the borders of Spain were national borders,
you know. It wasn't it wasn't a confederation, a palladies,
you know, where there was uh, you know where there
was some lame duck you know, secular prime minister or chancellor,
you know, kind of like holding the illusion together like
it really was like an absolute monarchy of a nation state,
you know, and not as like a puppet of the
Vatican or anything like that. So there's always like weird dichotomies.
So it has got interested in like Spain like on
its own terms because like I, you know, I'm assumed
the political theory, you know what I isn't there.
Speaker 1: Isn't there also the in the history of Spain, after
you have the uprisings to kick the Moors out, Spain
falls under much like Russia would later a few centuries
of Jewish influence to the point where Spanish Spanish are
being made slaves, are being made slaves of Jewish masters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was definitely that, that was definitely a very
real phenomenon, and that didn't happen in Western Europe. That
happened like Poland was basically a huge like Jewish sleeve colony,
like Ukraine wasn't it might opinion still is today and
I mean not, it's not like metaphoral terms and real terms,
particularly if you particularly you know, if you count pornography,
which is which is literally white slavery. I mean that's
not a euphemism, that's accurate, which is why that's what
it used to be called. But uh, in Western Europe,
like corrupt as the French uh uh, the Republic was,
you know, as regards you know, being in bed with
uh with with Jewish users and other uh you know
another another another another powerful people who were you know,
operating nhemically to the inimical to the national interest. It's
kind of like out and out domination you know of
people's you know, like like not just socially but physically. Yeah,
I mean Spain was ground zero for that kind of thing.
In a way that was alien to Western Europe. I
epvertis Western Europe, but so yeah, I mean it was
it was kind of like this, It was kind of
like this collision of like the ancient and the very
modern and you know, stuff like that. But to your point,
you know about uh about you know, Spaniards and Jews,
that that's gonna require like a dedicated deep dive because
it's just like too big for me to and I
don't want to just like shoot from the hip on
it today because at the I I didn't. I didn't
like prepare any notes or anything or just like refreshment recollection.
I know a lot about the topic, but I got
to be able to say dates and things in a
linear order, and like I can't do it on the
top of my head. I'm not a robot or a savant.
But but yeah, I mean that's that's important. And that's
also you know, I mean, uh, it's just an ongoing
and like the term you know, moranos or like I don't, uh,
I don't, I don't, I don't know what the correct
pronunciation is. You know, he's the one, uh the Ferdinand
demanded that you know, like all all Jews convert and
like except Catholicism, you know, as the national religion, you know,
which again it's you know, the ironically or perhaps not,
you know, Spain became the first truly like national state.
But the point is like that wasn't just that was
that wasn't just Fernan trying to kind of score points
with the clergy or something like. This was this was
imperative in Spain in a way it was not other places,
or maybe not, maybe imperative is not the word. This
was a measure that had a context in Spain that
it did in other places, even where there was you know,
bed blood across ethno sectarian lines of a way that
was any way that was very pronounced. But I want
to do two things today. I wanted to get just
kind of briefly into you know, sociological features of Spain
that relate to you know, political development that became critical
variables in the War of nineteen thirty six thirty nine.
I also want to deal with some like misconceptions about
fascism itself and about what the perspectives were of uh
in Berlin and in Moscow, and and and how Hitler
viewed the situation strategically, and how solidd because this is
wildly taken out of context by every virtually everybody, including
some people who are very studied revisionists, and you should
know better. But you know that said, i'll uh let me,
let me just let close out this window. Basically I'm
gonna start. It's gonna seem like I'm jumping around a bit,
but I believe this is the best way to present it,
especially because you know, I'm starting with something that's familiar.
And also this is kind of the framing device as
you if if if if that makes sense. When did
uh basically Hitler and the the inner h kind of
core the third or eych you know that being gearing Gebels,
you know Himler, they first kind of became U. They
first kind of became aware of Spain and strategic terms.
It was July twenty fifth, nineteen thirty six. It seems
like something out of a movie, but Uh Hitler was
actually attending an opera I think at Uh by Ruth
or bay royth like I I'm sure I'm portraying that pronunciation,
but literally at the intermission of this opera at uh
Canarious approaches and madmial Canaris, who was you know, a
very conspiratorial individual and a term coat. I mean it's
been proven, you know, many times over, but he was.
He was chief of the ABVIA, you know, the foreign
intelligence service. And Canarius was strange because in some ways
he seemed to be acting, you know, at critical moments
in the in the interest of the Third Reich, you know,
other times he was you know, working as UH just
as actively the sabotage it's strategic ambitions and are leaving
its survival. But that's a that's a subject to itself.
But Canaras had actually introduced m Yeah Hitler to Franco's
people and UH Canari's UH. He approached Hitler during the
intermition of this opera and he brought him an urgent
UH telegram, which was an appeal from UH to a
Franco's emissaries, you know, asking them for immedia, asking the
Third reichs for immediate assistance. Specifically, Franco needed to transport
the Moroccan legions were sympathetic, you know, for the nationalist
cause from UH North afric to the Spanish mainland, you know,
to rapidly reinforce. And Hiller convened daring Arhard Milche Albert Kesselring,
who I made the point, you know, kessel Ring was
finally his final command was you know, the defense of Italy,
and uh, he was never his forces were never defeated,
you know, they the war ended. So I mean, the
the Wehrmacht and the Loofaffa just just went home, you
know it. But kessel Ring at that time was was
the luff the chief of staff Milch, who was an
absolutely brilliant guy in all kinds of ways. Uh and
in an operational term, see, he was second to none.
But all of and this will become relevant later, all
one of them said, yes, we've got to intervene. Now.
Hitler authorized a full scale intervention. All the men present said,
we've got to be careful here. You know, we're very
we've got to be very careful about, you know, the
signals we send to the Soviet Union, to the UK,
to France. Okay. Ultimately, uh, getting deployed a bomber squadron
under a von Richtoffen who along with Vontma who commanded
the ground element, and we'll get into that later. Were
they were both you know, top they were both top commanders.
And there's somewhat overlooked and people who like the rank
that acts the generals and what have you. But Hitler's
view was that, you know, there was a need to
test uh you know, German combined arms, you know, the
one you know, and familiarized uh familiar eyes, uh you
know both aaron ground element forces with with these new technologies. Secondly,
there needed to be you know, the younger generation wasn't
battle tested, you know, and there was that too. Garring's
notion was, uh, Gearing at that time was still in
charge of uh, you know, the the broad economic planning
you know, in a way that would later end up
uh in the lap of disasters. He earned you that
as well as ar Hard and Mills, you know, kind
of in a in a more limited way, and some
would you know be uh you know, conferred upon Albert Spear,
you know as armage minister. At this point, Garing was
kinging of like the four year plans. Okay, Gearing coveted
precious metals that Spain had stuff like tungstend, stuff like copper.
You know that that uh that he reasoned uh could
be bartered in direct exchange thy aid or you know,
acquired fire sale prices Okay at h no by fall
a general war was under way in Spain. Okay, And
at this point Milch kessel Ring Gerring said, we've got
to be very careful about escalation unless we find ourselves
in a general war with the Soviet Union. Okay. So
this idea that the Soviet Union just you know, oh,
owing to socialism in one country. You know, the Soviets
weren't really involved in Spain. Stalin was in Spain one
hundred percent. He was in it to win it. On
his side, he didn't want to yet provoke a war
with the Third Reich. Okay. See, you've got something of
a Mexican standoff beneath kind of uh, you know, and
an intended subterfuge. Okay, what Stalin meant by socialism in
one country, You've got to understand in the way the
Russian Revolution developed, the way that Lenin envisioned the Bolshevik cause,
you know, as a vanguard movement. The basic problem within
kind of communist political theology, or rather the kind of
conceptual view of you know, like the man doesn't make history,
like history awaits you know, history gives man kind of
the clarion call, you know, and you can't force revolutionary
conditions too early, and uh, you know this idea that
you know, one can just build quote build socialism in
a backwards country like Russia, you know, and then you know,
Russia can catch up for the rest of the world,
you know. And then you know, when a general proletarian
revolution starts, you know, sweeping the developed world, well Russia
will be right there. I mean, this is this is
not orthodox Marsus Leninism. Okay, that's what Stalin was talking about.
He wasn't saying, oh, I'm gonna glad hand with fascism
because I don't want anyone to think I'm doing anything
but looking inward. And you know, I'm not really a
communist and I don't really have designs on Europe like
that's this nonsense. Also at Base Spain was a political fight. Okay,
politics matters when you're dealing with a revolutionary fervor that
is sweeping not just a key territory but literally the continent.
Later during the Cold War, arguably the planet. But we're
not there yet. The Third Reich had to go fight
in Spain because Spain is where the communists drew line. Okay,
that was that that that that was eight hundred percent
and vice versa like Stalin, this Moscow, the Soviet Union
and its entire claimed the mantle of you know, global
leadership of the proletariat, that that would have totally evaporated.
You know if if if Stalin had not you know,
set uh the communists whatever they needed to win, Okay,
But at the same time, abiding the need you know,
to keep up appearances. You know, it's even more important
to keep up appearances as you know, when when when
when you're undermining you know, what you report to be
your own commitment to peace and and and aversion to escalation,
and when it boss tweets. The appearance of the law
is fundamental, like especially when it's being broken. I mean,
it's this shouldn't come as a this shouldn't seem like
outlandish to anybody, Okay. But that's that's that's uh, you
know that that's there. There's there's so much dishonesty around
the issue. That's why I emphasize that. A lot of
people point to Hitler made a statement, and I think
you can find this in table talk, but I found
citations and Irving. I found a citation and Irving's The
war Path also in uh After in early no in
November December thirty sevens about a year Onward Hitler. Uh.
Hitler had told Ribbon Trops chief of staff or his
secretary that, uh, you know, like something that something effected,
like an outright victory of Franco. You know, we actually
might live to regret that because the guy is such
a bastard, you know, ha ha ha. But he also said,
you know, our interest is first and foremost is preventing
a Communist victory, but also to maintaining maintaining existing tensions
in the Mediterranean. You know, if h if the UK
was being you know, it's waiting and out of the
medic you know. Uh. But also like you know, the Spanish,
you know, essentially preventing like neutralizing the strategic benefit of
the Strait of Gibraltar to the UK. There that give
Germany tremendous power, you know, now just in terms of
the fact that well, you know, the real navy, the
Royal Navy would then you know, be at war in
a in a te theater, but it would give Berlin,
you know, bargaining power with respect to London. And at
that point, obviously you know, Hillar didn't view the UK
as an enemy, you know, so the fact that Hiller
would lament the fact that Franco is a bastard, he's
a terrible ally, he's impossible to work with, you know,
the fact that he would say, in a perfect world,
you know, there'd be a guy who was more malleable,
you know, in Madrid or fighting to take Madrid. But
also you know, in a perfect world, you know, we'd
be able to kind of keep keep keep the Royal
Navy forever tied down, you know, by some kind of
friendly regime on the Iberian Peninsula. Like that's not that
doesn't that doesn't amount to some statement, like some literal
statement of you know, gee, we made a mistake to
back Franco. I mean, it's people have a real problem
with literalists thinking in these days, but that they had
a side. It's one of the things that arguably, when
I say arguably, I don't mean, uh, I don't mean
in my perspective, but you know, again, people who view
the war in Spain is just kind of this like
isolated occurrence where you know, the Communists and support for
a you know, for the for the Republicans as they're called,
was was just some kind of token, perfunctory gesture or that,
you know, the Third Reich wasn't really committed to it,
you know, other than you know, for the very limited
purpose of uh of of you know, cutting the combat
teeth at Vermont. There it really was cross border momentum
developing behind parties of the right. Okay, No, there was
not a fascist international, but that would have been self defeating.
And also that's not kind of the the claimed legitimacy
that these rightist movements had didn't entail you know, some uh,
some kind of bureaucratic party apparatus, you know, with an
armed element, you know, that had some kind of like
you know, abstract theory of history that sort of rationalized
you know, uh, its existence. I mean, its entire claim
was you know, something primordial, perennial and based in you know,
the uh, the mysteries of cultural and racial origins. Okay,
to anyone who thinks that there was not, you know,
a zeitgeist that was facilitating the war in Spain on
both sides. The funeral of two men who died on
the same day and whose funerals were held in Kind
on January thirteen, nineteen thirty seven, to Romanian nationals, the
name of Vassil or Vassil Vassili Marine and Iron Mota.
Ion Mota was Coachoriano's number two in the Iron Guard.
They traveled to Spain, initially with an Iron Guard delegation
to present a Toledo sword to one of the Franco's generals.
They ended up joining the Nationalist side and they were
killed in action, and this became a rallying cry across Europe.
It these guys were reviewed as holy warriors in a
in a Christian jahad uh against communism, you know, against
uh uh against uh, against Jewish aggression and all the
iterations against atheism, you know, all these things. That their
bodies were interred or were on their way to interment.
We're putting a mortuary train. It left Spain, it traveled
through France and Belgium and reached Berlin in February. And
everywhere they stopped they were met by you know, s
s and s amen and National soldiers, party officials, delgates
to the Spanish Falange. Uh, you know, guys former representatives
of the Fascist Party in Italy obviously, you know, a
huge Iron Guard contingent, you know, men from the ex
in France. Ay, the funeral train literally did an entire
tour of Europe, and uh was greeted by throngs of
onlookers giving it the Roman salute. Okay, So I can
think of nothing comparable in in in in the communist
world before or after nineteen forty five, you know, I
can think of thing. I can think of people who
the communists tried to glomb onto, like Bobby Sands, which
was very misguided because Sands certainly wasn't one of them.
There are people like from the Popular Front Liberation of Palestine,
you know, years after the fact, they show up, uh,
you know wearing uh, wearing Sha Grivera badges and stuff.
Before it became much an idiot hipster thing in like
the two thousands, it was Uh. It's ironic because of
like the the PFLP General command and people like that,
would you know, what would employ his visage. But there's
nothing comparable. You know, this This really was like a
holy war of the right against you know, against what
they perceived this jewelry, against communism, you know, against against uh,
you know again against godless capital. That was uh, you know,
that was that was that was supporting both of those elements,
you know, And that's why these fools who you know
from the UK and and from the USA, like you know,
I was, I was. You know, there were people say
like they were fighting, you know, for for freedom against tyranny.
It's like, no, you were fighting. You were fighting alongside
the Soviet Union and you're fighting against the Soviet Union
as most brutal zenith you know what I mean. So
you can't It's not your alibi, I think, most important ignorance,
but it's you know it, it's got to be said.
And on the other side of it, I know we
got into this quite a bit. We were doing our
Second World War series, but it UH as the the
the dictates that Stalin was UH issuing to the General
Staff of the Red Army and the directives he was
handing to the to the main what's called the Main Administration,
main administration for political propaganda in the Soviet Army. You know,
we got into some of these things, but they these
all you know, on the eve of of war in
May nine forty one, they were incessantly referencing the Spanish
War and you know the UH like a literal quote
from UH from Army Commissar first rank Zaporos. That's I
can't pronounce these like Georgian and Moldovan and Russian names.
But his uh he quoted uh Stalin is saying, literally,
the situation is developing. Do the situation is developing, we
are compelled in duty bound to take the initiative and
dealing the first blow, beginning the war of attack with
the objective of expanding the borders of socialism. You know.
Quote the leader made it unmistakably clear that war is
inevitable in the future. We must be prepared to the
complete smashing of German fascism. I mean this, this goes
on and on and on, you know, Like I said,
we we got into this in depth before in our
you know, earlier series. But it's and I'm sure some
people will say that, like I rely too much at
direct testimony and things. But if you're talking about intent,
and you're trying to you're trying to piece together intent,
particularly of at scale. You know, you're talking about you know,
command authorities in a state that ended up at war,
you know, months or years subsequent to the statement. You've
got to take those things basically at face value, you know,
because number one, like who who what audience would they
be speaking for? You know, these these these are the
notes that were found later in some cases after the
you know, decades later, at the opening of the Soviet archives,
you know, and it's you're you're talking like like Merzmmer said,
you know, if you're a general preparing for war, particularly
in a system like the Soviet Union, where you know,
there was a kind of totalitarian accountability where and and
and and at that at the level of these these
apparatrics in generals, they were constantly under surveillance and and
misspeaking could cost you your life, you know, Like I
there's a basic honesty to that that you can rely
on in kind of absolute terms, you know, I mean
what they say might be clouded by ideology, it might
be misguided, but but the idea that what amounts to
these eyes on the statements from Stalin, you know, to
his political commissars, within the general, within the within within
the what amounts the general staff of the Right Army
that oh, they were just saying these things to give
an appearance of preparateness and and keep the Germans on
their toes, Like how would the Germans even know of that?
You know, Like it's I mean, I realize them preaching
to the choir here. But that's that's important. And you know,
the before uh, before ninety thirty nine, the last general
deployment of UH of Soviet forces was was in Spain.
And granted, like they didn't have an infantry element there.
They had the n k v D on the ground,
but they had you know, but they were there in
substantial numbers number one. And also, I mean Soviet weapons
were all over the battle theater, you know. So when
they're referencing, when they're making when when stalin is Is
is issuing edicts you know about you know, the future war,
which obviously he's talking about the Third Reich, you know,
and when he's discussing, when he's discussing tactical matters, identifying
what he's used as like strong points and weak points,
he's talking about the experience of Spain. Okay, I mean
this that that can't be denied. Now back to Spain
at long last, the war in Spain happened in Spain, Uh,
not accidentally, you know, and not uh it's not uh,
it's not a case of you know, revolutionary conditions owing
to owing to some kind of you know, punctuating prices
or ongoing emergency on the ground, you know, just kind
of made it right for for radicalization. Spain didn't develop normally, okay,
like we were talking before we went live, you know, uh,
for centuries, uh Spain was uh what was what was
was occupied, like large areas of territory were were occupied
by Mazlem elements. When that was finally defeated, the you know,
I mean basically the uh the the intermittent war against
against them, the the Islamic Moors really began. I mean
it was it was Viscoth warlords who began, you know,
the reconquista in uh In like the seven hundreds, you know,
and it like the territorial the territorial control of the
Spaniards or the Moors, you know, like varied depending uh
on who had the upper hand in battlefield terms, as
well as you know, who was forced to make political
concessions at any given moment. But it can be viewed
basically as you know, a centuries long process to liberate
Spain from you know, from from Heathen occupation. And it
was finally realized by Ferdinand and Isabella. And in fourteen
ninety two, which is a banner year. You know, it's
Ferdinand and Isabella like we talked about a moment ago,
I believe before winn Lie. The irony is that Ferdinand,
the reason why I was praised so effusively by Machiavelli
and the Prince is that Ferdinand was in many ways
like the first the first absolute monarch of a of
a truly national state like Spain became a national state,
you know, despite it's even at that point, despite its backwardness. Okay, Now,
fernand had a remarkable mandate, and so would have subsequent
monarchs had they, you know, had they been able to
retain the coalition they get around them. But the that
those successes, you know, were bought at a certain price.
And if you're fighting at the century as long a
holy war against Dar al Islam, the only way you
can facilitate that is by giving the army basically unlimited
access to the national coffers. And you got to insinuate
the church into political affairs that otherwise would not be
appropriate or constructive. And both of those things have happened.
I'm not saying bad things about the Roman Church at all.
I'm saying this is a reality. Okay. So the kind
of prototype of of state power in Spain was an
absolute monarchy before it really happened anywhere else, sustained by
a warrior aristocracy that it was beholden to, uh, a
clergy that you know, had incredible power. You know. The
thing is, though, like all this costs a tremendous amount
of money, you know, and the solution during the Ricontuista,
particularly in the later phases, it's like you gotta feed
your army, like, Okay, well, you know, we're gonna seize
common land, you know, and uh, and we're we're gonna
you know, we're gonna put animals out the pasture there,
you know, if we need like wool or you know,
leather or anything else. You know, that's that's just what
we're gonna do. You know. So it was kind of
the it was kind of the fifteenth century equivalent of
like imminent domain, you know, like being silly it sounds like,
but I'm not.
Speaker 1: And a lot of that land was not being used.
Speaker 2: Too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of that land was not being used
at all.
Speaker 2: So no, but that and a lot of and a
lot of these guys were happy to I mean, they
they they wanted to purge heathens from Spain, you know,
for a lot more happy to allow access to it
or to give it literally the crown. But the point
is if you're if you're using it, you know, for
commodities to feed and outfit the army, or you're using it,
you know for this like for this merino wool that's
coveted you know, all through Europe so you can raise money,
you know it, say, you can put gold in the
coffers of uh, you know, the sex and weapons developers
that you need, you know, to fight the moors. Like
nobody's nobody's using that land, you know, to to to
build up you know, to build up the Agraean economy,
you know, develop it and refine it and God willing,
you know, create, create or generate on surplus for export.
You know, like none of that is happening, you know,
and it as ah as time went on, it created
kind of a warfare state paradigm, you know, not in
like the corrupt sense. Like now, what I mean is
that you had this, You had this warrior aristocracy which
is like interstitially kind of bound up with the clergy
who both relied on each other, you know, like not
just for the sake of you know, the the optics
of authority or something, you know, like if you're gonna
if they were, if you're gonna wage a holy war,
you better believe that you know, the Roman Church better
is going to war with you, you know, like on
your side, and like their function is as important as
you know the and who wheeled the blade. I mean
that this should be obvious, but we're not used to thinking.
We're not usual to talking about Europeans fighting holy wars
like in Europe. But you know, if you're gonna expect,
if you're gonna expect peasants like give up land and
give up like you know, and give up the certain
security they have, you know, from that kind of tendency,
and you're gonna expect like freeholders, you know, to give
up what they own, you know, so that you know
these uh martial efforts, necessary as they may be, can
can continue your lunch with the situation where like Nobles established,
a kind of becomes the order of the day. Okay,
in a way it's not in in other societies, at
least in Europe, like it becomes it takes on an
outsized importance, is what I'm getting at, Okay, And that's
exactly what happened, and that endured you know, perpetually, like
after after the Europeans like one Spain mech you know,
for for christiandom A uh bib Or made the point too.
And Beavor's book is great because it's larded with facts
and he makes some great points. He's got some conceptual prejudices,
and but I rely on him a lot. He made
the point that in the Middle Ages, from the Middle
Ages until the end of the UH until the end
of the eighteenth century, Spain lost something like half its population.
You know. Some of that was just kind of like
you know, the kind of uh yeah, you know, oh,
changing patterns of fecunity and things. But part was because
like Spain literally had to downsize because like it couldn't fee,
it couldn't sustain the population that one's had, you know,
and you've got uh an empire that's rapidly growing, but
it's ability to feed its people is uh decterior reading.
I mean, at its height, the Spanish Empire literally owned
half the planet.
Speaker 1: Like people forget that, I mean, I mean even Spangler
Spangler and like Pressianism and socialism is all about mid fifteen,
sixte hundred, seventeen hundred Spain.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent one hundred percent. So again
it was uh, it was, it was highly unusual. I mean,
I don't know if despite what people say, there's not
there's not some there's not some template trial empires developed,
you know. Uh, I mean I realize it's mostly just
like basic as people saying like, oh, history repeats itself.
I mean even even people are more sophisticated than that
don't need to realize it's not there's not some like
template or something. It's kind of like natural, you know,
developmental cycle. Other than other than I mean, every everything,
everything dies at some point or comes to an end.
That's not what I mean. I mean, I mean the
concrete particulars you know, of of how an empire acquires
its fortunes, you know, maintains its agemony and then ultimately,
you know, loses its ability to to compete with its uh,
to compete with its enemies, or or to sustain its
its own existence at scale. But this kind of warrior
holy warrior ethos developed in Spain. But it was it. Uh,
it admits it came to exists among like a real
kind of perennial destabilization. You know. It isabella like one
of her one of her final kind of acts of state,
like late in life, Dasis Narrows, who is uh this
kind of legend. I mean you probably know this because
I mean you're a Kidli guy and like a Latin dude.
I don't know anying about it since Narrows until like
very recently. But he was he was like this kind
of he was. He was, he was like this pious friar,
you know, he's kind of the guy he's credited. It
was sort of structuring of the Inquisition as it came
to as it came to exist. And that's another thing
that's gross. He misunderstood by people kind of on both
sides of the the political spectrum. We'll get into that too,
but the uh, the uh. On the one hand, you had,
you had this kind of tendency towards revolt that was
burgening in Spain, especially in some of these territories that
you know had long been you know, like discreete principalities,
you know, with with kind of unique cultural habits and
and and political cultures. So there the ground, the proverbial
soil was kind of uh was kind of eager for
for rebellion against central authority. Anyway, but at that time too,
like the papacy in Rome was was viewed as highly corrupt,
which it was as a lot of these like friars
who actually were like, you know, radically pious, they found
themselves at odds with the papacy, who in turn, you know,
called upon, you know, the the Castilian monarchy in Spain,
they kind of restore the status quo. But the but
the monarchy had to tread lately because a lot of
these priests were kind of like more like literally more
Catholic than the pope, you know, and the Castilian monarchs
entire kind of their entire mandate to that kind of extraordinary,
extraordinarily deep authority basically owed to their ability to you know,
maintain like the confidence and and the absolute endorsement of uh,
of the Catholic charity. You know. So it was it
was central wasn't against regionalism. It was you know that
that that weakened the structure that Furdan created. It was, uh,
the odd dynamics of play between uh, the papacy and
and you know, the cardinals in Spain itself and else where.
Speaker 1: It was.
Speaker 2: There was a rising. Uh, there was there was a
there was a there was a rising uh against Charles
the Fifth, who was Isabella's grandson. That was uh, that
was uh you know, provoked by like was viewed. It's
like his his his abuse of of of public moneys
and things. You know, it's just like typical sort of
uh discontent you know with uh, I mean with with
with rulers didn't well handle the fortunes of the country
like material and otherwise, but it took on it. It
took on and outside and often like literally theological meaning
like owing to you know, some of the some of
the uh sociological tendencies at play. A lot of the
country had been assimilated into the in the in the
Castilian rule through like marriage, you know, so you had
you had you had a Spanish halfpurt line. You know
that like found itself at odds with with uh or
with with a lot of the peasantry, you know, to
oing to complicated reasons of bloodline and things that like
wouldn't mean anything to an American, but had deep, uh
deep significance to uh.
Speaker 1: To uh.
Speaker 2: You know, the people in that time and place, and
I care even to day its people like where that
has meaning to them. I'm not saying that derisively, but
and there was times when you had an officer corps
who uh was sympathetic to you know, these guys that
like nascent uh middle class uprisings you know in like
eighteen thirteen and eighteen forty eight. You know, ultimately the
pendulum swung the other way, you know, and which is
where it kind of remained into the twentieth century. And
if you'll notice that parallel between this kind of situation
in Spain and the kind of situation you had in
uh Chile, you know, uh with uh with Pinochet and
the officers contra like civil society, like you'd be right,
Like there's something there's something to how uh you know,
Latin America like mirror Spain in the way that you know,
the UK like mirrors the United States in terms of
political sociology and zeitgeist and other things. I find that fascinating.
Speaker 1: But it.
Speaker 2: The uh, the uh like all these things like Spain
was basically it was uh everything that the communists claimed
about uh, you know, capitalists, like what they viewed as
like you know, late capitalist failure was found in Spain,
you know, and in their in their mind or their propaganda.
But I mean think, I think they also believed it,
you know, they said that, like, you know, the only
reason why the only reason why the Church retained, the
Roman Church retains power in Spain is because, like the
last the final recourse of the capitalists is the is
to draw upon, you know, reactionary tendencies you know, within UH,
with within the body politic, you know, who are vulnerable
as such appeals, you knowing to this going to the
punctuated disruption of their lives. You know. So it was
like it was, I mean, I think you know, I'm
was saying, like war arrives like the seasons, and there
was matters of zeitgeist that you know, made Spain kind
of the battle space as as it happened. But there
was also in more kind of and and more and
more kind of abstract terms, like abstract intellectual terms. It
was like Spain was there was gonna be There was
gonna be a bullshitic uprising in Spain, you know, and
UH and and the the Soviet Union was gonna be
with was gonna be insinuated into that process as much
as it could be without provoking a general war with
you know, the Third Reich or something by proxy. The
UH ironically though, and again, you know, into the twentieth century,
Spain remained economically backwards. There was a basic hostility to
commercial activity. Like it's like the Code of Hidalgo or whatever.
It really it really didn't a certain it really did
despise you know, money, you know, like it went beyond
you know, content for usury and things. There were there's
something not just unbecoming a nobleman or any or any
man who's you know, an upright Christian of good race
and breeding, you know, taking any interest in in money
not derived you know from uh, from an estate or something.
And it wasn't they they couldn't transition that into productive
capital you know, like say Prussia did. You know, so
they're not despite what you know, despite what liberals claim,
like their Marxist counterparts, you know, it's not capitalism isn't
like this fundamentally like or axiomatically like liberalizing tendency. You know,
like Prussia was arguably the most reactionary state that existed
in the modern era. And they were remarkably capitalists. I mean,
they were they were abiding you know, the they were
abiding the the economic victims of people Frederick List. You know, obviously,
you know they had the correct paradigm of you know,
commercial interest being subjugated to the national interest at all times.
This idea that like well, you know, if you have
you know, if you have like a basically kind of
like you know, martial care, if you have you know,
a basically uh reactionary conservative elite, you know that they
it's it's it's literally impossible for them to you know,
transition a medieval economy into a modern market, modern value
added economy with you know, where where revenues are reinvested
in a productive capital like this bullshit, because I that's
that like, that's literally a story of Germany and especially Prussia. Okay,
but it uh there was a certain rigidity to things
in Spain that that that just did not or could
not happen, and it was exacerbated you know, like I said,
the the the quote era of reform, you know, like
the mid eighteenth century, I guess until like the Napoleonic
the final Napoleonic uh defeat in eighteen thirteen. There was
there was a know, you had you had a nascent
middle class or at least a wealthier uh you know,
kind of a freehold class, you know, who were attracted
to the ideas of uh of of these Enlightenment propagandas
at least superficially that put UH, that put that put
pressure on Charles the third to issue reforms which in
turn reduced the Church's influence over the army, where a
lot of officers were being you know, bought off by
these reforms. And incidentally a lot of those officers had
taken to Freemasonry. And that in large part is where
you get the idea or the claim that like, you know, well,
masonry is this revolution from the middle kind of degenerate
tendency that like hates Catholicism. I'm not saying that that's
correct or not. I'm just saying that's where it comes from. Okay,
so don't I don't have people sending me hate email
or something. But that in turn caused you know, like
people blue who were you know, sympathetic to the ancient
regime or who were committed to the kind of caste structure,
and you know, the uh, the kind of paradigm of
a you know, an officer corps that works handing love
with the army, both of whom are you know, beholden
to an absolute monarch who uh, in turn abides, you know,
their traditional privileges and benefits, like socially materially. So this
is just like a this is like a literally like
a perfect storm of like dysfunctional tendencies. You know. It's
and that's that's why when things jumped off in Spain,
you know, finally in uh in nineteen thirty six, I mean,
there was such there was such hostility, and that's all
I mean just I mean reciprocally, but it was also
the It's easy understand why even guys who weren't, you know,
diehard national socialists or like Iron Guard parisans, It's easy
to see why people looked at it like, look, this
is the communists are like, they're making an example here,
you know, the the body everything they hate. They want
to they want to annihilate Spain and the Spanish as
a people, as a culture form. They want to annihilate
the church in capacity to exist in the modern world.
And and and then they were right, okay, I mean
that's why it became so critically symbolic. I would seem
like I was jumping around a lot, and there's a
lot of like I hope it's useless backstory and lore.
But if that's the way it came off. I'm sorry.
I think you'll thank me as we get into this,
because I never refer to things that.
Speaker 1: Okay, but we need that backstory because most people don't
know the history of Spain. They yeah, they I assume
they just think it is just another feudal country, country
that went through feudalism, just like everyone else. And they
don't realize the battles that actually battles that you would
see coming in the future actually happened there.
Speaker 2: No one hundred percent. And also like as we go on, uh,
there's just like too much to like fully cover here,
like you mentioned when we when we talked the other day,
Like I'll get into why the Carlists were like fighting
on the national side or the patriotic side. I'll get
into other stuff, you know, like why like the Spanish
Armadus defeat, you know, like tanked everything. But we're gonna
wait till we're like in that context. And primarily though,
I want to focus on you know that third or
I get war on Spain and like you know, how
the military situation developed. So I promise we'll dive into
that very next episode.
Speaker 1: All right, do some plugs and we'll end it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Man. You can find me on Twitter
for the time being at Real Capital r e a
L underscore number seven hwim s seven seven seven. If
I'm a substick, that's our primary home now Real Thomas
seven seven seven, that subsick dot com. I think in
good progress towards the channel. I promise things are getting done,
even if it doesn't seem like it. I've been trying
to work my ass off running out of content, so
I've been trying to get people a lot of content.
I'm not being a murder like, oh I'm so great,
but uh keep that in mind if it seems like
I'm being an idol or a nerd rather but uh I, uh,
I've gotten more confidence, like in shooting video. Uh it
just comes out of editing it and making it, you know,
content worthy, and uh I I basically just got to
decide on a format for you know, like my kind
of like for for for Thomas TV, which I think
is gonna be something like a video blog, but like
I are are Area are a video pod, but like
I want to have like guests like sitting there with me,
and like some people like down for that. Some people
are like horrified to that prospect, but I think it'll
be pretty lit. Man. But my point is, like I'm
working on all of these things, and I really really
appreciate everybody who gives me a platform, especially not not
just Pete he's my dear friend, but like other people
who just reach out.
Speaker 1: So thank you very much, Thomas. I appreciate it. So
until episode two.
Speaker 2: Yes, suah, thank you.
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea Show.
We are here for part two on the Spanish Civil
War with Thomas seven seven seven. How are you doing, Thomas?
Speaker 2: I'm very well, thank you, but I wanted to talk
about some today. This is going to be a recurring
theme conceptually throughout the series. There's a military dimension to
the Spanish War that's important and was impactful in just
positive ways. There's a political aspect and kind of very
concert three terms, especially relating to the Neutrality Act that
had really kind of bounded the ability of the New
Dealers to act how they wanted in global terms. Frankly,
then we got into that and our Second World War
series somewhat or a turn to that too in a
dedicated capacity when it seems appropriate. But I'm sure that
there's gonna be some people who say that this is
over in my own conceptual prejudices, and I kind of
hit Gaelian orientation and my tendency towards German his storicism.
But the uh, the animating catalyst for the Spanish War
was was Zeitgeist. You know, we got we got into
that in the first episode. You know, I made the
point that despite the a lot of historians make a
point of the conspicuous absence of a fascist international, you know,
contra a communist international. Some of that's a Cold War hangover,
when you know, you'd have you'd have progress, you know,
self like progressive historians, you know, with's having to present
the issue as well, see that you know, this this
was just you know, these are just capitalist states and crisis,
and they were they were just scrambling to sort of
confabulate some iteration of what appeared to be, you know,
a revolutionary tenancy in its own right that you know,
the sort of rob the momentum of the left. You know,
that doesn't stand up to any real scrutiny anyway, But
the fact that there was this kind of outpouring of
support for the nationalist cause, you know, which really was
the Cabalt cause you know, we'll get into that a
little bit here today. I mean, you know, and like
I said, I I make a lot I guess of
prime symbolic of events. You know, Uh, I mean, prime
symbols dominate in human psychology, you know, especially at scale,
you know, sociologically, you know that that's that's why iconic events,
you know, defined civic memory. But also you know, that's
why political symbols are so important, you know, particularly when
there's there's mobilization catalysts, you know, like during the Inner Warriors.
But you know, we talked about the we talked about
the funeral, the funerals of the few, the common funeral
of Ion Mota and that's the old Marine, you know.
And how you know, delegates from pretty much every European
state that had any kind of active right wing movement
or anti communist movement. You know, they turned out to
literally salute, you know, the the funerary train. You know,
when they were greeted, uh, everywhere they went by these cadres.
And that's not something that's not something that could just
be you know, cobbled together for for photo opportunities. And
it was very authentic and just the fact that there
were Romanians on the ground in the first place, you know,
and then they're they're being greeted and saluted by you know,
uh shoot Staffelman, you know, and you had Italian priests,
you know, like like like blessing them and things. And
then and then there's even like secular like French fascists,
like action France as types like saluting them, you know,
who had obviously like no, no, no truck with reactionary
Catholicism as it was perceived, you know, on his own terms.
But that's most important in America too because really some historians,
including Anthony Beevor who I I think he's overall a
very good historian, articularly I mean, he's not a revisionist
really at all as far as court historians go. I
think he's probab will be the best, you know, on
the subject of the Second World War in the interwar years.
But he you know, he uh, he's got uh, he's
got a tendency to kind of hit the mark but
not really understand the the sort of depth of significance
of some of these prime symbolic events. And he hits
the mark what he talks about the Spanish War being
you know, a precursor to the Second World War. I mean,
he perceives even a guy like him who rejects, you know,
the kind of historicism of a guy like Novelty and
and you know uh as well as you know the
the the contrary storicism of people like Osbam. But he
doesn't identify you know, like a common uh nucleus of
approximate causation there. But it it was deeper than just
you know what kind of a kind of opening act
of hostilities relating to you know, extent you know, geostrategic
ambitions and and and intentions. You know it really it
really was apocable and and ideological and a matter of
zeitgeist as the why, as the why why what animated
Germany to intervene in Spain? Why the Soviets staked it
the way they did, you know why you know, i uh,
progressives in America and in the UK, you know, who
identify themselves as you know, on the side of the
Coot democracy movement, which which is incredibly misguided and deliberately
it was a deliberate lie. And we're going to get
into that. So that that's a question at Bars kind
of like why Spain, Well, well, we think of like
speaking of civic myths, so can we think of we
think of the kind of prived symbols The left likes
to trot out as like the horrors of you know
that which came before one of the big ones is
the Inquisition or the Crusades. They can't really, they can't
really expand upon what they mean by that, you know,
like what inquisition, because there was three. There's the Portuguese Inquisition,
there was the Italian, and there was a Spanish. The
Spanish Inquisition was the most politically significant. I'd say it
was initiated by Isabella in fourteen seventy eight. You know,
when we talked about ferd In and Isabella, like the
irony of a of a of them, like preceding the
Westphalian state, you know, by a century and a half.
But but but Catholic Spain, like like like Ferdinand really
did make Spain and national Catholic state sight unseen, you know,
in a in a way that is at odds with
with Spain's kind of stagnant and traditionalist culture. I don't
mean that punitively, that's just a fact. But the Spanish
Inquisition endured for three hundred years. It's agreed upon now
by everybody. Okay, my court of story and provisionists or whatever.
I could pull out citations, but I don't think it's necessary.
If somebody really wants them now or on any topic
we cover, I can provide them, but con of me directly.
I'm not being autistic or something like. People do that
to me, They're like, that's a bullshit, figure, where's your source. Well,
I can source everything, but I'm not going to sit
here and relate, you know, citations like a shithead. But
between three thousand and six thousand people in three hundred
years of the Inquisition Spanish Inquisition, we're put to death, Okay,
based on convictions. That's about two point seven percent of
all cases. Okay. In one year nineteen thirty six, the
Communists and their socialist allies in Spain slaughtered about six
thousand priests and nuns, you know, just outright, they just
massacred them. Okay, So within the first year of a
three year conflict more clergy people were categorically slaughtered by
the Communists and their democratic allies. Then the total number
of people put to death by the Inquisition or three centuries.
The Inquisition is what you're like taught, is this like
event of abject horror in the Stroga record. Like I'm
not cadaic, so I don't I don't have sound like
direct dog in that fight, other than the fact that
this kind of thing is discussing to anybody who's.
Speaker 1: At all normal.
Speaker 2: But that really jumped out at me, Like as I
said that deep diving into Cali history and I'm findingly
like twenty five years ago. No, okay, not because like
I believe that, like you know, the Inquisition was, you know,
this kind of horror show where this kind of singular
instance of brutality that's just unparalleled by anything comparable. I mean,
I knew that court history was histriotic. I knew that
they lied, but it's remarkable, like contra the violence that
was instigated against you know, the Cadlic clergy itself, you
know within really it wasn't until a few years ago
living memory, you know, the if you if you want to,
if you want to vilify the Roman Church, there's a
lot of ways you can do it without opening yourself
up to that kind of criticism. Okay, but I that's
another example of some something like that particular myth. I
was making the point that a bunch of people lament
you know, the information age and the kind of corrupting
influence of you know, this kind of like totally immersion
like in screens, you know it there, it's more it's
more of a liberation mechanism than it is you know,
like one of then and then then it's like a
check called psychic slavery. And there's just like one example, okay,
like forty years ago you could band you out of
the end position was the most horrible thing ever. And
thank god that you know, the Democrats in nineteen thirty six,
you know, stopped it from from oppressing women and slaughtering
people and you know, like crucifying gay people and sitting
on fire like you get away with that, Okay, even
people who knew it wasn't true, they couldn't just like
rebut you like with him seconds like from the phone
in their pocket, okay. And it was making the point
that you know, we're not we're not running evangelical church,
we're not missionaries. So I mean, I don't go out
in the world and say to people like see, like
this is what you've been lied to look look at
the figures on my phone for the imposition, but for
the people who are you know, interested in real history
and know, for the people who are charged for political
or patriotic reasons or just because I could feels like
a calling me and like Cornea that sounds like I
feel like being a revision is just like my calling.
That's like what God wants me to do. It. You
don't feel so much like you're brushing up against Leviathan
and trying to correct these lies of history. And it's
also even if you think yourself basically immune to Zeitgeist,
you're not okay. You're gonna internalize features of it, even
if you're doing so in oppositional terms, because it's like
the weather, you know, like it's coming back, you know,
like in Natural Born Killers. That might seem like a
corny thing to site in a serious discussion, but it's
actually a pretty profound film, I think owing in large
part of the screenplay. There's one part where you know
what he harrelse and he's like he's modeled on stark Weather,
you know. He says to the guy he's supposed to
be like Heroldo, who's played by Robert Downey Junior. He's like,
you know, he's like, media is like weather, but it's
man made weather, you know, and and that's true, you know,
and the degree to which there was only the degree
which there's a bully pulpit for historical claims and narrative,
you know, the kind of brief window an absolute turns brief.
I mean between when visual media you know, from the
movie house and then you know, to the TV screen
and then like the ubiquity of you know, the cable
media cycle that was edged out by Internet very rapidly
after it reached the zenith. But there was a brief
period of zenith, you know, in the eighties and to
like the mid nineties where it was just absolute okay,
like it was, it could not be fucked with. It
was like like you were like, if you were a visionist,
you were a proverbial ninety pounds weekling and media was
Mike Tyson in nineteen eighty eight, Okay, like it. There's
just nothing you could do to it, okay. And even uh,
even the climate was such that even even the people
who are otherwise receptive you just come off like a
crank okay, because you know, literally, like the conceptual weather system.
You know, don't evoke the metaphor again, was completely at
odds with what you were declaring, okay, and that the
degree to which you know, Internet changed everything and cannot
be overstated, and that that's why that's why Twitter went
early berserk, you know, like a few years back, and
that's why now, like you run an Internet search. I
just went in an occur Internet search for polio, like
not even because I was on a discussion with a
guy that does a lot of research on AIDS and
on like idiolog itsiological like sources of disease. So I
don't know, like learn about polio. I didn't type been
like is polio fake or something? My first result is
that there is a conspiracy theory that polio was created
by the government. Or it's like I didn't ask that,
you know, It's like, so they're showing their hand, like
I could probably I could probably run a search like
naval oranges or for like puppy dogs, and it would
be like, you know, the Nazis puppy dogs because they
were the most evil people ever or something like I
should You're not it's like that extreme, But the point
is like it's not they're they're not even they're they're
not even willing to you know, just kind of like
deploy like legions of uh of a like disinfo people
to like you know, Twitter or like or do Instagram
and interesting and so many people are doing like screen
capture to like get like concepts out, you know. And
then I'm interested in how they're how they're gonna. They're
already shutting stuff down into auspices of you know, that's
inappropriate for children or something. But it's that I don't
want to go too far the topic. But in the event, Okay,
so why is Spain and why did the communists attack
the clergy like this? I mean like we know why,
like in terms of you know why they hated the
church and we know why, you know, bullshit at cadres
if you like clergy people as standard bearers of of
a counter revolutionary tendency of tremendous power, but just hand
over fists like slaughtering clergy people, it seems like it's
bad optics. Okay, Now, for a long time, what the
what the elk with the ELBI was of the left
in Spain. It was a strange transition period after Franco died.
Franco was elderly, but he died somewhat abruptly, and as
you might have imagined the especially in those days, you know,
in nineteen seventy five, there was not a lot of
news coming out of Madrid about, you know, the the
kind of health of Franco, but also too like people
like like ahead of state, now he's got, he's got
like doctors like a bosass feared to be literally like
all the time, you know, like in those days, it
was not like people even if you know, it was
not clear, like what the state of somebody's health was
always isn't There wasn't this uh, there wasn't this kind
of a there There wasn't this kind of ongoing like
revolutionary shift, Like there wasn't Portugal, you know, like uh
like sales ar amount other things averted a buddy civil war.
I mean that's a topic for another pod or series entirely.
But Franco dies, suddenly it becomes clear that people an't
gonna accept you know, like uh, you know, the the
reinstitution of just the constitutional monarchy. It becomes clear that
like even if Franco had a successor, he wasn't gonna
be accepted. Either Spain's now like been in NATO for
many years, you know, it was, it's been it's been integrated,
poor man in Europe as it may be, it's it's
been integrated, you know for decades into the ec it Uh.
But there were there was like in terms of like
the ideological culture, there was problems, you know, especially because
you know, not just knowing to the Cold War, but
it's you know, it's they weren't gonna if if they
tried to pull like what South Africa did, you know,
the Truth Reconciliation Committee or something like that, that things
would have deteriorated if not into you know, civil war
like it would it would it would have permanently gridlocked,
you know, the government, the emergent government, and it would
have had no legitimacy. But the kind of alibi was
always well that was the Soviets doing that, you know,
and the NKBB was doing that, and the or these
were just you know, outli these are outliers. You know,
these were violent people doing terrible things because this was
like a bad time. Well interestingly this was uh, but
they they tried to blame it. They always blame it
on the anarchists that too, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was
these there was there was these anarchist cycle pass and
you know they.
Speaker 1: They were the one digging up the you know, the
famous and taking pictures of them.
Speaker 2: But it there was an incident or there's a series
of incident specifically from November seventh to December fourth, nineteen
thirty six, there's this kind other peak of of revolutionary violence, okay, uh,
especially in in the cities and uh like the provinces
immediately abutting the ones uh containing the cities. November seventh
to Approxed me December fourth, ninety thirty six, a bunch
of political prisoners helped him Madrid to jails. They were
just spontaneously evacuated, like the outlying provinces. And these people
were these were all political prisoners, okay, like some of
them had been imperisrated on grounds that they were anti
social or something. But these these are trumped up charges.
These weren't criminals, okay, that I need to make that clear.
They were they were evacuated over these weeks on mass
and and and they were they were executed. They were
just exterminated. The man responsible at that time for jails
in public order was a man named Solarius, Santiago Solarius.
He was all twenty one years old in ninety thirty six,
and that was part of his alibi, okay, upon return
from exile with the Franco, because everybody got you know, amnesty,
like the jury as well as like the facto. I mean,
this was very much and any spatter to live through it,
We'll tell you, I'm sure this is very deliberate, you know,
like we we've got to finesse these bad feelings and
let the past become the past, you know, which under
more ordinary circumstances would probably be a laudable What the
what Solari's defenders claimed the chorus, Well, this this, these
are just false propaganda. You know, outright, this just didn't happen.
But then as evidence mounted it uh you know what
uh what Solarios is people themselves claimed as well as
kind of what the regime came to claim in like
a soft pedaling kind of way, was that well, you know,
there were there were there were extradusicial killings that were wrong,
but these were arbitrary and caprecious, you know, extradusial killings
that were were isolated incidents. You know, they weren't categorical,
they weren't organized well. In two thousand and four, historian
a guy named rather the Spanish historian UH. Kind of
a right friendly guy, but like more of a conservative,
you know, not he wasn't the guy who could be
just kind of dismissed as some like right winger. I
mean it's not really that's not grounds of objective grounds
to dismiss somebody's findings anyway, but you don't saying what
I mean, like this guy wasn't some idealogue with the
you know, the kind of milk toast regime is the
kind that you know can be only kind of regime
in Europe after the Cold War? Would you can kind
of dismiss the He began digging into the archives of UH,
the UH, the Iberian Anarchist Federation and the National Confederation
of Labor, which united at some point prior to the
onset of hostilities. And there are archives were housed in Amsterdam,
where I believe and I'm not trying to set Dutch people,
but there's there's a lot of there was a lot
of communist cadre and revolutionary party archives and sensitive documents
housed in Holland. Okay, I don't know why that is,
but that I don't that can't be disputed. Okay, that's
why these documents are located there. Riverite discovered the literal
minutes of meeting, you know, between the Iberian Federation field
commanders and the National Federational Labor like security element, and
they literally described a classification protocol for who should be
exterminated just on categorical terms. Okay, And these people who
were evacuated, these political detainees, they all fell into that category, right.
These are people who identified as fasci as sympathetic, you know,
people who were you know, lay people in the calyb Church,
who had some role people just been denounced, you know.
And this was something of a mini scandal, I mean,
not just in academic quarters, but because even even up two,
you know, and unfree as occupied Europe is like Spain's
kind of a different thing, not just because it's not
directly occupied by America, but it's you know, it wasn't
a direct combat into World War two. It's you know,
there was more. I'm not gonna go as far. First
of all, I'm not an expert in the culture at all,
but and I'm certainly not going to go as far
as to say that, you know, Spain is a more
kind of reasoned view of historical matters. But it's different,
you know, that can't be denied. And as I've dived
deeper into this, that becomes clear, like the historical controversies
of Spain, you know, so they're a buddle to this,
uh evidence. There's a leftist historian named anghel vinas Venus
claimed like, well, yeah, this happened these these the minutes
from this meeting. That's not that's not, you know, a forgery. However,
he's like, this was we were on we were being
ordered to do this by the Soviet you know, like
our predecessors, you know, they were being ordered to do
this by the Soviet Union. And the man primarily colored
build who was a man named Alexander Orlov. Who's Alexander Orlov?
Well he was the chief of the nkv D in Spain. Okay,
So okay, there's problems with an alibi for a lot
of reasons. It's like, okay, if you're under let's say,
let's say that's undrescent correct. Okay, so you're under duress.
Why was there an nkv D in Spain? I mean
like there was there literally was an nkv D office
in Spain, you know, and as you know, uh, I
mean that raises questions of his own. It's like, okay,
well they got there somehow. Are you saying the Soviet
Union invaded Spain? You know you were powerless to resist them,
you know, they they you invited the men to help
you fight against a fascist coup that was burgening, but
then they took over. I mean, this isn't it's not
just this is preposterous, but I mean in some ways
it's worse than what what the initial allegation was, you know.
But it also it cuts against to your point, like
the alibi for the preceding you know, sixty seventy years
had been well that was that, that was these that
was these anarchists who were prabakently fascist themselves. They had
nothing to do with us, and these were just crazy people.
You know. It's like, okay, so now not now you
were acting under orders of the Soviets, and not of
the Soviets but the nkv D. And like you had
Russian officers who had you know, who were cadres, who
who had authority over your own people in the field,
Like what is this? You know, like I weren't. Weren't
you all a bunch of once you are a bunch
of liberal democrats and you know, uh that and that's
why and people love freedom like joined to go to
go to go fight against the fascists. I mean, like
it's this like, on the one hand, on i'd say this,
I'd say that this guy is not particularly credible, but
again it's that it's somebody that's more incriminating than what
than the prima fascia inferenced one would draw from documents.
But it also too when I a friend of mine
made this point when he and I were discussing this,
and uh, you know, he's he's got a law background,
like guy who I mean, maybe this is our kind
of like bias in common for how we approach evidence.
But he's like, you know, he's like, there's a if
you're that cavalier about like who you're gonna categorically annihilate?
You know, we're talking about non combatants and we're not.
We're not using euphemisms like these people are bandits and
these are you know, partisans. You know, we're not we're
not using the language of like MELI four and like saying, well,
these people are insurgents, like conveniently like leaving out you know,
like their age, sex or or overall health. You're just
like literally talking about like, okay, people identified under these
categories as political detainees, you know, there to be terminated,
Like you're very very confident, uh that this is never
going to come to light. You know, it's basically you're
you're not worried about being taken to task after you know,
General Franco or you know, or his German allies roll
over you and and then and then put you on
trial for this or like you know, put two rounds
in the back of your head as payback, or just
because you know you're you've obviously you know, you're obviously
an irredeemable partisan, you know. And his point was that
these people had assurances from the Soviet Union from day one,
like don't worry about it, We're not going to let
you lose. And I think that's a correct interpretation. Okay,
I couldn't prove it in a corel of law, but
you know, one thing you don't find, you don't find
the Soviet Union like issuing you know, in ninety thirty nine,
you know, issuing telegrams to field commanders about like annihilating
a non combatants at Ketyan. You don't find Hirich Himmler
saying like, you know, hey, by the way, you know
these people this is a race war, and like these
people are categorical enemies. So I'm gonna put on paper.
I just think you should waste them all, you know.
I mean, this is remarkable for a lot of reasons. Okay,
can I ask you a question?
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think that the Soviet Union was planning
on winning the war and staying there? I mean Orloff
was the one who took all of the Spanish gold
to Moscow, right, and they and they bragged, and Stalin
bragged about how it was going to be a robbery.
And then Orloff in thirty eight has to defect because
style and starts his purge of you know, a certain
religious group.
Speaker 2: Right. What I think is, I mean, you get the
way the Soviet Union looked at things. I basically agree
with Suberovs hypothesis. I think jackham Hoffman makes a better
case for it in purely strategic terms and like practical terms,
pragmatic terms. Okay, Stalin had to show up to fight
in Spain. Otherwise he would have lost all credibility, as
you know, like the Soviet people would have lost all
credibility as like you know that the vanguard of like
the World Revolution and like as we discussed before, and
it kind of curns with capacity people misunderstand socialism in
one country and what Stalin was trying, what he meant
by that in literal terms, and what he was trying
to project by that, And so the dog was away,
Like he wasn't saying like we have abandoned the World
Revolution or that like we are some kind of like
a tarcic inward looking state like a giant North Korea.
You have not saying those things at all. Okay, you've
got to be pretty well versed or at least in
a rudimentary capacity. You've got to understand like what what
what orthodox like Leninism is to understand what he was saying.
And you've got to understand why the Soviet people, like
what on what basis they were claiming, you know, to
to be like the first among nations like in the
social revolution. That's the connext with which to understand it.
Spain was where like the battle lines were drawn. Spain
is where you know, the bulship has collided, you know,
with the true like reactionary enemy like the Soviets had
to show up to fight. What I think Stalin thought
he could do was he thought the NKV the people
like or of people like Eric Milk, You thought that basically,
like uh, you know, he could arm and equip the
Reds other thing they needed. Uh. The Nationalists didn't really
have a pot to pitch until uh Milchin Gary came
to rescue you know, after uh, after Canaris uh act
as emissary for Franco's people, you know, and then and
then the Reds had a problem. But you know, the
view from Moscow was, uh, you know, the the kind
of revolutionaries, you know, the Falangees, uh, the national Catholics,
the Carlos, They're gonna get smashed. We're gonna mop up.
And if we have to stack a million bodies up
a priest non as Falangis and anybody else who's not
with the program will do that. The Germans are then
gonna freak the funk out, you know, uh, and anything
especially because uh, you know Spain and France it already
like openly declared you know, sympathy if not, you know, allegiance,
you know with the with the Reds that was gonna exacerbate,
you know, like the war in the West that Stalin
always believe was imminent. The uh, the Germans are gonna
get bogged down u like they did in nineteen fourteen,
as like Germany bleeds white like Stalin and the Red
Army was gonna like smash from the through from the east.
You know. That was like ideally would have happened, you know,
but it wasn't. But just Stalin wasn't ready yet. And
that's that's that's something that the non aggression pack owes
to also because there's this odd situation where I mean
once once the vermont actually did deploy and like I said,
we'll get into like Montoma's uh like ground element too,
which is fascinating. Like the Germans were the Germans were
fighting in Spain. It wasn't just you know, it was
just like loof offf of like hot shots, like flying
a handle at sorties, like you know, you had very
much elements like going into ground action against the communists.
They were killing Russians, okay, and vice versa. Potentially that's explosive,
you know, but again too like a non aggression pack,
only only as a context if you're careening towards war anyway,
I mean like it otherwise it doesn't make sense, but
it I believe that was Stalin's notion. But it's also
the the uh, the Soviets for the duration of their existence.
I mean, people like like to look down in the
Russians and like make fun of them and stuff, and
I mean whatever, like I I'm not gonna open up
some kind of general general discussion about like the character
of Russians or whatever, but they the Russians are serious people, man,
and like they like whatever their shortcomings are, like in
war and peace, they're really really good at intriguing and
they're really really good at insinuating their people into them
into proxy uh elements that serve their interests and kind
of like fortifying and shaping those interests the way they
want them to develop. Okay, I mean the examples are Legion. Okay,
like right until the end they were doing this in
in you know, in nicaraugu and I'll sell it or
you know, like they which frankly was incredible because that
was that that would have been that would have. That
would have been like the feather in their cap, you know, like, hey,
we've got you know, we've we've got actual like Marcius
Lennis client regimes. You know, I got in the American continent.
There's nothing America can do about it, you know, without
waging some kind of jungle war with you know, half
of half the country is in the Panama Zone. But
he hasn't made like That's that's what I believe the
Soviet notion was. And when when the Reds got the
first of all in Germany came in like in the
with when it deployed in depth the way it did,
I don't think Stalin got very worried. I don't think
he knew that the Germans were capable of that. I
don't think a lot of people did. And plus it
was that's when Gering was like at his best. Arguably
he was an addict then and he but he he
still had it together like Erard Millers, who I think
was the best he was. Eron Mellis is one of
the best field marshals the Germans had. The guy was
like a literal genius, you know, and he later like
he's the guy relieved, Uh, the Belaguer Vermacht and Norway
and like literally saved the day, you know, like he
von Toma was one of the was one of the
was one of the army's best freaking commanders. Like these guys,
these were like second raiders who were going to fight
in Spain. And you know, these were these guys like
the Kareama, like they hear on the Loofaffa, you know,
like at that point, and they they they they had
a they very much had a sense of uh. And
me they're very dung hole guys. You know, they're like, hey,
we're going to fight the Rets. You know, We're not
there's in some stupid war rope into against France because
like we're always dealing with the French or something or
it's not you know, it's not just making me in
border dispute, like we're fighting the communists, Like this is it,
you know, like this is this is uh, this is
our chance to to smash these people, you know, like
after they've been racking on victories, you know for the
last last twenty years. You know it, but it's hard
to say. I mean, Stalin playthings close to the chest.
I mean what Shalin did say and like We've got
into both in the last episode on the Spanish War.
But you know, in our UH, in our Second World
War series throughout the nineteen thirties, Stalin was addressing UH
like riticulally cadres and general officers in the Red Army.
They're kind of like feeling them out, you know, as
as a group, you know, to see like really if
they were like battle ready, you know, in a general
war against Germany. I mean, Germany's always like Russia's provle opponent,
but you know what I mean, like in more concrete terms.
But then it was after about it was about nineteen
thirty seven, ninety thirty eight that like suddenly Stalin's are
talking about like, look like you know, our doctrine, our
our political doction, in our battle doctrine is anonymous, you know,
like we we we never fight defensively, like we always
fight on foreign soil, unless like you know, we're we're
affecting you know, like a fighting retreat because we're exonstentially threatened,
you know, like the UH like you know, like the
Bolshevik cause is inextricably laying you know, to the to
the Russian national ambitions. You know, we started talking like
a warlord. You know, he started talking to uh, you know,
the like he started he started issuing these like proclamations
from on high, you know, just to the Soviet people,
you know about like we've got you know, we can
we can withstand any hardship and you know we we
we can never like lose lose our faith and in
the Communist cause, Like no matter how grand things are
for us moving forward. It's like, what was he talking about.
He's not, he's not He's not talking about like breadlines
getting longer. He was not talking about it being really
cold next winner, you know, he's it's obvious what he's
talking about. And it and Gearing it was thirty seven.
I think when Gearing as uh you know, he he
went with like the loof off like military liaison, you know,
to these, to these to the aircraft factory in the
you're alls, and like the single aircraft factory had had
like quadrupled the capacity of like all German aircraft factories combined.
Like I mean, you don't you don't build something like that,
like unless you're mobilizing for war, you know, I mean
it's so I mean taken together it I know, historians
including bbar. They'll always say, like, well, of course the
Soviet you know, the Soviets, they tried to cast the war.
They ry guess warfare generally is like a schoolyard fight, like, oh, well,
you know, the Germans struck first. It's like, I mean,
it's like saying that, like as like calling somebody who
moves first and chess the aggressor. Okay, like it doesn't.
The Soviets. There's no such thing. If you've got if
you've got five million men out arms, and you know,
you're building military aircraft by the hundreds, like, there's not
there's not a defensive purpose for those. I mean, the
deciding between defense and an offensive war doesn't make sense anyway,
but it all that matters and strategic planning. His capabilities
and what Salom was doing was he was amassing He
was amassing the mightiest military force the world has ever seen.
And then made the point once once the stories developed
the bomb, even after the devastation of World War two,
I believe Stalin was the single most powerful man has
ever lived. Okay, people can't conceptualize that these days, I
don't think. Okay, but that's what uh, that's what I
think uh, that's that's what I think we might understand
it was. But it's also you know, it bears noticing
too that there was obviously, you know, like during uh
uh you know, the Munich Soviet and during like the
Weimar years. I know that, like Trotsky's forces had gotten
spanked in Poland, and obviously the Soviets were like arming
those cadres like cause you know, havoc in Germany. But
it's not you know that the n KVD wasn't deploying
to Munich, you know, like I mean, it wasn't like
the Soviets were, regardless of the fact that you know again,
uh so Soviet control is invoked as an alibi by
apologists for Communist violence in Spain, regardless of that, and
regardless of degree of culpability and relative or absolute terms
between the Red Spaniards in between the Soviet cadres, the
Soviet Union had an actual NKVD branch there, you know,
they had it beyond like nominal like political representation, just
to be like relaying to Moscow. The battlefield situation was,
you know, like this this was not normal for the
Soviet Union. And I realized the Soviet news and the
abnormal state. But in terms of its power, projection, tendencies
and strategy, it this was an outlier in terms of
how it usually behaved. So you know, again and I
I think like a lawyer in terms of the evidence
I favor, and in terms of the way I calculate intention,
particularly in war and peace terms. But motive means and
motive means an opportunity. It tends to be how you
convinced the try refect of scientier. The court room is
not uh bound by formal logic or anything. But we're
talking about human affairs. There is something to that, you know,
whether you're talking about individual men or at scale. And
again I I I don't think this can be denied.
And even even where their conspiguous absence of some of this,
some of this data of an entry data. Again, the
Soviets couldn't afford to not fight in Spain did over
the Third Reich. But even more so for the Soviets,
the uh UH did sit out World War One, and
that interestingly, that that that contributed in oblique ways to
the political situation in the thirties. Spain was a weird state. Man. Look.
On the one hand, I mean, Spain had an African empire,
you know, they had they couldn't be said that Spain
wasn't like a place of high culture. But they became
the you know and again like they literally were like
the first truly like national state in Europe despite their
kind of inextricable relationship to the Roman Church in political terms,
but they were something they weren't ur something of an
inward looking people. You know, they weren't practicing a global
politique or even really a European power politique. You know,
like they there became an an unprecedented demand for Spanish
goods during World War One because they were a neutral,
but the influx of capital like caused all kinds of
problems with they're already you know, kind of troubled currencies.
It swelled the cities, which I mean as the cities
were were were you know, they were the repository of
red sympathy. But it's not as clear cut as people think, man.
I mean, there was national districts in Madrid and in Barcelona,
and uh there was also I mean there were there
was a there were there's people, there's guys, there's had
a lot of secessionists. We're just like catching their wag
into the Communists because like they thought that hey, if
we fight and like issue this is our demand, you know,
to like the cadres, they'll have to give it to us.
I mean it was it was kind of a collogated
bestiche But another thing, guys like Beeborne was understand. It
makes the point that he's like, well, you know, why,
why why why Spain gets still behind the Galic Church
and gets so outraged it the massc of of clergy
only twenty percent of people went to church. It's like
you can't you can't adjudicate like the kind of the
conceptual spirit for like a better word of a country
and a culture, like by how many people are like
sitting in pews on Sunday. Like even the way the
Communists framed their propaganda was like Catholic. It was like
a perverted iteration of it.
Speaker 1: But I mean, the the Inquisition didn't end until eighteen fourteen,
eighteen fifteen, and the Catholic Church was basically the courts
up until then. You know they weren't they weren't the executioners.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, and it's also even a guy like
even in a guy the only time he'd been in
church was like when he was baptized and like his
mom's funeral. Like that guy would like view the world
in like Catholic terms, and he'd look at the church
as like, you know, kind of the the instantation of
like you know, God's authority on earth. You know, like
it's not that there's I don't know Bimbo's back. I
bet that like a lot of Tories is like a
Church of England type and he he doesn't really understand
like could like faith as like a conceptual spit of orientation.
He probably use Americans as like a bunch of rednecks
like me who like read the Bible all day and
or idiots, and he use Catholics as like well they
some of them don't even go to church, like not
not even not understanding that. It's like it's something that's
like interstitially bound up with like your entire sense of culture,
like you know, I mean, you understand this, but it's
it didn't matter that, uh, it didn't it didn't matter
that like most that that that most people weren't going
to church. I mean it's but it's also too I
mean even if I mean, even if you know the
action France, say, uh during their zenith, you know, they
kind of they got they got kind of edged out
by like later like fascist and nationalists, uh militias in France.
But you know, they they always made the point that
like we're we're like a secular movement, but that doesn't
mean you can attack the Mother Church, you know. I
mean they they were willing to go to war to
like protect uh you know, the Roman Church as uh
as like the state religion of of of like what
they viewed as like you know, the the ideal like
French Republic moving forward. You know, like I'm sure I said,
like Italy where a lot of people did go to church,
but it'll like the Kingdom of Italy under Duce was
basically a secular society. You know, it didn't matter that
like you know, half of Italians were like in church
every Sunday, you know, I mean, it's it was totally different.
And it's you know, like I said, it's it's something
of a it's something of a blind spot. It said,
somewhat political when like deliberate and ideological, but it's something
it's part of it too. It's like a cultural blind spot.
And this thing like too like it. You know, it's
been redacted from this druga record that there's a huge
outpouring of support for the nationalists cause in Ireland, and
uh the regime there of val Era, like he had
a problem, he had to finesh public opinion when I
mean Ireland, just like the cleared outright neutrality on the
on the question m a lot of even a lot
of voters, you know, uh in the Republic who are
basically like liberals, like why aren't you going to defend
the church? What's the matter with you? You know? And
uh in the blue shirts, you know, a Duffy's Blue
shirts mean two or three thousand men signed up to
go fight on the nationalist side, like all irishmen. I mean,
iron's a tire. Ireland is a tiny country. That's significance,
you know. And in America, Catholic media they give it
up signatures of school kids, you know, like they they
got something like a million and a half signatures like
kids like progo school kids, you know, saying that mister Roosevelt,
while let it, while we we love our sisters and
and and and prius, why why are letting them be
murdered by communists? You know, I mean like that and
and obviously like New Geork types like I was just
you know that that that's you know that that's that
that's exploitative, and that's that's just you know, propaganda by
by by atrocity story. But I mean it's like what
he's saying that this wasn't happening. I mean, you know,
the the Gallic Church isn't have its own army. Stalin's
famously said that, Okay, I mean like if you uh,
the church militant, it has to defend it, you know,
I mean, and that's it, you know, as well as
like as other as well as other you know, as
well as other patriotic elements and and Orthodox guys and
and you know in German prads who you know, realized
what the stakes were. But it's also during the Great
during World War One, there there became h there became
like a deep uh. That's when the divisions originally uh
kind of became like insurmountable. Like it wasn't until the
nineteen thirty five It wasn't until like the night like
even the nine thirty sixth election, you actually had candidates
for parliament saying, you know, like we will not accept
you know, like uh, a nationalist victory at the polls, like,
well we will go to war and vice versa. But
it's the uh people uh military officers, UH, farmers, you know,
people uh like clergy, people like laymen, we're activing the church.
They tended to side with uh the kaiser Reich, you know,
and uh and and these kind of and these guys
like urbanite uh Franco file types like tend to decide
with uh, you know, with with with London, Paris. It's
just interesting. It's uh. I mean, I I was making
the point that like the war in Syria. One of
the reasons, I mean, ASD's a hero anyway, I mean,
he's just like a great man. But it was impair
different people on the right, you know, to back Syria
anyway they could, you know, in theater, uh and as
well as you know, people in a position to like
send money to to uh you know, the the Syrians
defending themselves in their gene from terrorism. You know, because
that that that that that that was that was not
to the same degree and not to the same not
it's not impactful in the way the Spanish War was.
But that's you better believe that was a was a
war of zechdeist in ideology and thank god you, thank
god you a sad defeated Islamic terrorism. You know that's
brought to his brought to his own soil by by
America and Israel. I mean that's always the case. I mean,
the you can tell, you can tell it was on
the right, the wrong side of things, by the by
the Ukraine War. I mean, that's like more that that.
That's ridiculous example because it's literally just like this, it's
literally just kind of like a human trafficking like Zionis mafia,
like propped up by you know, these like degenerates in Washington,
you know, and they're they're just like there's like provoking
a conflict against like all strategic reason. But the point is,
like anybody, you know, you better believed that's an ideological
war and that you know, that's that that's like the
designated battleground for you know, the uh between uh the
opposing camps that constitute you know, both sides of the
of the Zeitgeiser present. I would have been far afield
today on and what I wanted to talk about. I
hope that was okay with people.
Speaker 1: I got, I got I got you off track with
the with the question about the goal that no.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, that's an import that's that's a
fascinating Uh. That's like something like Frederick Firsight there, like
John Lecurrey would have written about it. Took a fascinating
little little side note. What I want to get into, Uh,
I'd like to get a little bit deeper and like theory.
I mean, I know it's like my wheelhouse and I
don't subject people to it. I think it's boring. But
I want to get a little bit into like the
maesterra next time, and like how like the counter Reformation
like impacted political thought, which ultimately made the kind of
like the Nationals Coalition possible. But we'll get into like
the actual onset of hostilities like in the next episode,
and we'll we'll we'll devote there's a little background time
to what I just referenced, but then kind of get
into like the military situation and how it developed. If
that's okay by you, it's your.
Speaker 1: Show, that sounds great to me. Yeah, the Maestro I'm
getting ready to actually go over some of his writings
on the Inquisition on my show.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's what I was thinking about like specifically,
but it's I mean he is he's a very like
heterodox like Catholic thinker in some way, but in terms
of how Catholicism like in foreign politics, especially you know
in them in from from really you know, like eighteen twelve,
eighting thirteen, like onward like it. That can't really be overstated.
I mean you know that because you're a learned guy.
But this was great, man, And again, I really really
appreciate you giving me the platform.
Speaker 1: All right to what we do every time. Get plugs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I'm still on I'm still on Twitter.
Who knows for how long I shut down my telegram
channel find beings and just becoming like a huge hassle.
I know, everybody upset. I will launch another one, but
I got to get things in order for some of
my other projects. I've got to catch up on these
long form manuscripts that I had a neglect because I've
been you know, I mean, I've been busy with them stuff.
It wasn't just as neglecting things, but the I am
in fact shooting channel footage. It's an involved process. Actual
like long episodes are probably only gonna come out want
like bi monthly, but I'm going to start shooting like
two and three minute videos like and will drop those weekly. Okay,
but there's a lot that goes into it. I'm not
saying that play martyr. I'm saying that to people. Don't
think I'm being like slack. And uh. Season two of
Mind Phaser, I I'm recording the next episode with my
dear friend Giles tomorrow night. That's going to be the
last episode of season one and season two with the
pod is going to change substantially, but I believe everybody
will approve of the ways in which it's changing. Like
we're not We're We're gonna stick to the same as
of topics. So there's other things I want to emphasize
and you'll see, okay, and I'll give it a write
up on my substick so to kind of hit people
to what I'm thinking. But yeah, and you can find
me on substick at real Thomas seven seven seven dot
substick dot. And that's all I got for.
Speaker 1: Now, Thomas, until the next time, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man.
Speaker 1: Likewise, I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekana Show.
I'm here with Tom seven seven seven again. Part three
Spanish Civil war.
Speaker 2: How are you doing very well man, Thanks again for
making this happen. I've been thinking a lot about the
revolution and military affairs and what people trace its origins too.
That's not just a discrete question of interest to military
science types or you know, like war college types who
you know, study this kind of thing for its own sake,
not just to understand the things for the sake of posterity,
but also you know, game future conflicts. But it relates
in peculiar ways to the conditions that you know, the
decisions of an almost purely political nature, like the true
the true revolution in military affairs was something that occurred
on the command to control side, owing to the owing
to the information age and the advent of it, I believe,
But its origins lie in blitzkrieg or what some people
commonly understand is blitzkrieg, and how that doctrine came to develop.
The best explanation of what the controversy is, there's Basil
Liddell Hearts, who I think is something of a problematic historian,
but he does flesh out what the kind of the
key variables are in in you know, material to the
the question. John Mehersheimer I find him more accessible. Miershimmer
is highly theoretical, but he's less deliberately esoteric than somebody
like Heart, and he presents these things, uh ironically because
I think when of Meershamer's blind spots is other political
conditions which underlie warfare at all times and what what
the interplay is. I mean, he's pretty much a closet
whit cy. And he's also very much, you know, a
quantitative thinker. I mean I got all like tremendous respect
for him, but that part ways with him in basic
terms in his understanding of the interplay of political and
military affairs. But his book Conventional Deterrence, Okay, it made
it was It was highly impactful during the late Cold War.
I people always asking for sources and things, all right,
the Journal of the Atomic Scientists. You can find most
of that the archives for free if you dig deep,
okay online. Now it's become kind of this like like
you know, pointless kind of peacenik environmentalists kind of journal
that no one takes seriously. But it had real relevance, uh,
you know, from the eyes of our era until you know,
November nineth, nineteen eighty nine, frankly and the final phase
of the Cold War, it started running a lot of
informed pieces by people like Meerscheimer about the reemergence of
of of conventional forces as you know, a key variable,
you know, owing not just to to to emergent deeper parodies,
but you know, it's just like a more you know,
the the the information and revolution. It led to just
more complete understanding of you know, the interplay of of
of conventional and nuclear forces in in a few in
a then future conflict with you know, then extant platforms.
But this piece that i'm site, I'm referencing in journally
a time of scientists. It's basically condensed version of uh
Meer Sermer's book Conventional Deterrence, which was published in nineteen
eighty two, eighty two or eighty three. And obviously he
the article it talks to from from you know, then
current like from the headline's issues relating to the able
Archer era and stuff and and the person to deployment
and the uh the the Minuteman system and things. But
the book Conventional Deterrence remains relevant because it's about the
best statement of the controversy. The historians debate on the
question of Blitzkrieg. Like basically it boils down to this,
you know, was Blitzkrieg this revolutionary doctrine that was conceptualized
in purely theoretical terms before the Battle of France, specifically
you know whereby uh whereby people like Heinz Guderian and
uh people like uh Werner Gunn Fritz were uh you know,
understood that masked armor was gonna supplant conventional infantry you
know as the as the the spare punks of uh
of of of ground assault operations or was Blitzkrieg this
kind of uh, you know technique that developed owing to
the unique exigencies of the modern battlefield conditions and you know,
as uh as as as as the French collapse and
as the mainline resistance you know, kind of rapidly just
evaporated at points where massed armor was employed. The great effect,
you know was was that just basically like you know,
German battlefield commanders who who were strongly oriented towards what's
called missionaryed tactics anyway, and had an inherent you know,
kind of tendency towards experimentation and flexibility. You know, they
they just adopted these things like in theater, and then
you know, very organically, ay, a combined arms doctrine developed,
you know, like owing to trial and error under the
critical conditions of combat or you know, was was it
again like just a just a a theoretical coup, you know,
owing to them kind of the latent brilliant of the
German general staff, and of course people favor of the latter.
That's really I mean that that sounds on it's face
it might be particularly credible in like general terms, but
the you know, the the Germans, the Prussian Army, and
especially if you the Wehrmacht as the direct legacy of
the Prussian Army, which I do and I'm not gonna
be disputed. They invented the staff structure, okay, the United States,
the UK, France, Japan, everybody imitated the Prussian staff structure,
where you know, you have a permanent general staff that
constantly studies in games warfare. And they also pioneered war
gaming as we know it, okay, you know, like the
screet scenario building with coded variables too, you know, tailor
to mimic likely battlefield conditions and things. So in the
German case, it's a more credible postulate than it would
be you know, as applied to other as applied to
other military cultures in a speculative capacity. If you accept
uh that blitz krieg was a discreet doctrine that emerged,
you know, from theoretical quarters of the Vermont, you also
basically like like a concominant like claim they're in is
that well like Hitler sabotaged this by micromanagement or Hitler
was basically like, you know, a siege oriented commander. You know,
he was uh, basically cautious in critical capacities, you know,
And uh, I basically agree with that, but not for
the reasons most people do. If you learn the way
Hitler behaved in in in a warlord role, he wasn't
this crazy, reckless gambler like a lot of core historians
or Hollywood like make it out, you know, quite the contrary.
He was basically like a conservative German like siege commander,
you know, and when objectives were reached, you know, he
he was obsessed with protecting flanks and you know, constituting
forces such that they could defend in depth, you know,
if necessary. But in any event, one of the reasons
why I think that the whole controversy is kind of
a fool's errand it's because German armored doctrine, it's testing
ground was the Spanish Civil War. Okay, and von Toma,
who uh, as we'll get into. He's an underappreciated German commander,
more so than some of the other general officers which revisionists, uh,
you know have kind of discovered weren't higher praise than
they were afforded other for political reason and just because
they were like overlooked and favor of these more kind
of dashing characters like Rommel or like Darian, or like
one manch thing i'd put uh, I put v Toma.
I consider him the same class as uh Rick Toffin,
as Ferdinand Schorner with the last German field marshall ever.
But he uh, he was a tactical genius, I believe.
And that's the other reason I liked that book by
Hoffman Stalin's Worg Extermination. It's not just because it's a
it's great scholarship, but he makes that point in some
of his other stuff too, that Ferdinand Schorners it was
a great battlefield commander. But in any event, armor was
dispositive in the Spanish Civil War and the nationalists you know,
the Franco's forces. I mean, if you want to think
of them as nationalists fascists, you know, the talked about
the constellation of of of just fascist who had general
sympathy for you know, the for the church and and
for the you know, and for the for the traditional
regime political and social. But they like however you want
to describe on it was. It was this kind of
confederation of of of of different forces but sometimes competing
loyalties and uh, you know, like we talked about before,
before the loof off came to their aid, you know,
not just to literally transport the forces and being they
had across the terranean ce to the battle space, but
all you know, they they were, they were in dire straits.
And one of the reasons they were just out gunned
was because, uh the enemy had uh T twenty six
tanks provided by the Soviet Union, and those tanks were
obsolete by the admin of World War Two, but they
were they were in some ways perfectly suited to the
the combat on the Spanish battlefield. And one of the
reasons I emphasized Von Toma, it's not just because I've
got you know, sort of like a nerve's interest in
the ground element of condor leading the thing.
Speaker 1: It's cool.
Speaker 2: But out of all the men that you know, Hitler
and you know, the the OKW could have deployed, you know,
to command that element, they chose Vonma. You know who
was this guy who was a student of On Sikh,
who was an incredibly progressive commander in terms of his
understanding of combined arms and just an all around, like
really well round guy. You know. They didn't just drop
you know, like some you know some some tried and
tested you know, Prussian infantry commander, you know, and that's remarkable.
Vontoma also like he was he was knighted owing to uh,
you know World War One, and I mean he was,
he was he was granted the title for heroism, you know,
like he wasn't born an aristocrats. I mean, this was
a guy who really really had a ship together in
command roles, you know. But he he uh, he won
a second He fought on basically he fought literally not basically,
he fought in every front of the First World War two,
which was rare. He fought. He joined the Bavarian Army,
an outside of hostilities. Uh, he fought on the Western
front of admittantly finally fought the Battle of the Marn
and was captured by American and French forces and became
a pow for the you know, the final two months
of the war. But you know, he fought on the
Eastern Front extensively and most meant it not with some exceptions.
You know, spent like basically equal time like in the
East and in the West. You know, like he fought
in Romania. He fought throughout the Serbian campaign, you know,
very well on a guy. He was awarded the the
the Order of Max with Joseph by the Bavarian Army,
which was like the you know, his the equivalent of
the Blue Max basically, you know, but it uh it,
it was equivalent of the Knight's Cross. And that's why
he that's why he got you know, the the the
the honorific in his name. But he uh van Brauschich,
who is kind of an under examined commander, I mean, everybody,
the falling out between him and Hitler, you know, in
the wake of the very much being a halt started
being halted in Moscow. It's kind of what he's most
known for as well as there's some strange intrigues he
seems to have been involved in, you know, relating to
the July twentieth plot. But other than that, he's kind
of treated as a footnote, you know, because for the
remainder of the war, like you know, he'd been he'd
been castured out, you know, going to him, the fears
loss of confidence in him. But he's a far more
dynamic character in at least in in the terms of
you know, his profession and how he pursued it. Then
people often acknowledge so he was uh, you know, he
was he basically Van Brousa said, had you know, cultivated
Ontoma's talents by by you know, asking of him they
become an expert armed warfare, which I assume Ontma had
been kind of pursuing his own course of learning in
that capacity anyway, I mean, just like going to the
battlefield record and everything else. He ended up commanding, uh,
he ended up commanding seventeen panther later on in the
Operation Barbarossa. He fought at the Battle of Moscow. Then
he was trying. He received the Knight's Cross, the Iron Cross. Subsequently,
he was transferred to North Africa and he was captured
at the in the aftermath of the Second Battle of
l a Lamin. And that's why like uh hearts like
uh in the German General's Talk and like all the
hearts like uh, you know, kind of books on on
Hrmacht's leadership, like Montoma like features looms large because he
was he was frankly in the custody of of of
the British army for years, you know, and he he
developed something of a rapport with these guys, you know,
I mean at uh, which is interesting. So I mean
some people would say, like, well, you know, that gives
him kind of an outsized presence in the historical record.
I don't really think so. I mean, there's plenty of
especially after the cessation of hostilities, I mean, after the
day of defeat, there was plenty of There's plenty of
surviving general officers who you know, could have been debriefed
all day and they would have been happy to have
that either lot in lieu of the gallows or you know,
being unceremoniously uh. You know, it's kind of like cast
out as on persons. Plus do the British whatever we can,
whatever we can say about them, they I mean, they're
they're not a bunch of jokers when it comes to
their capacity to evaluate military talent and command level. I
think anybody would acknowledge that, regardless, regardless of their feelings
about Old Blighty otherwise. But Ontoma ended up in Spain
in October thirty six. Uh. The first shipment at German
tanks was forty one Plonzer Compwagen type one pans are
Won tanks, okay, and like the T twenty six tanks
that they were deployed to combat, they were obsolete by
you know, ninety thirty nine forty, but it again for
the for the Spanish UH battlefield, they they were perfectly suited.
And also the Germans, as the pans A two had
already been developed. The Panzer one was being used largely
as a training tank, like by the Wehrmacht because it
I mean for various reasons and including it was it
was just a simpler machine, you know, and it was
uh you got to understand too, like most men at
this time, like it never even like driven a car,
you know, So it's i even today, I mean with
all the advantages somebody would have and you know, learning
how to fight in armor and you know, like a
contemporary tank, I mean, imagine, imagine a guy who's never
even been in like an automobile, you know, like it
it's and plus, fighting an armor is scary, it's claust aphobic.
You're in, you're inhaling diesel fumes. It's loud as hell,
like in those days. Your visibility is compromised, like if
you get hit, you're probably gonna burn to death or
you know, get your face ripped apart by shrapnel. I mean,
it's it's no joke, you know. So training an armor
is not just like teaching somebody to fire a gun,
or or to dry or to drive a shitty. I mean,
I that should go without saying. But I maybe it's because,
I mean, maybe it's because, like I I don't like
I'm I'm claust aphobic in a real way, and my
room one on one horror is being burnt alive. But
I I've always thought, uh, I've always I've always thought
it would be uniquely uh scary to fight in a
tank and I don't generally have a fear of higher situations.
But the total uh, the total number of pans are
ones to reach Spain was seventy two as regards forces
and being by the end of I still between nine
thirty six and thirty nine, a total of one hundred
and twenty two were deployed, you know, including like replacements
and everything else, you know, like going to owing to
attrition and going to you know, just a mechanical failure
and things. But and like we mentioned, uh that the
Nationalists were Outgune by the Soviet T twenty six, which
were fitted with a forty five millimeter main gun, which
was heavy heavy firepower, uh for the era. The pans
are one and it's armament was two M thirteen light
machine guns. It was a truly light tank, like in fact,
like py today's metric or even by the metric you
know of uh of you know, by the by the
metric of you know, four or five years later, eve,
by the mid forties, it'd be a like it'd be
a like it would be a light armored vehicle. It
wouldn't even be considered a tank, you know. And owing
to these only to this disparity of of arms and
you know, fire power rather uh, like, Spanish officers started
agitating for the for the platform to be retrofitted with
a bred of twenty millimeters main gun. You know. Then
Tomas strongly opposed this. You know, he said, you're gonna
compromise the integrity of the hull. Uh, You're gonna literally
have to drill holes that expose the gunner, you know,
to being targeted at visual range. You know, it's it's
it's it's it's it's a it's a fool's errand you know,
and it was and that's important, you know, I mean
it's not the spanners were thinking about this, you know,
like you know, like like like like like a like
an infantry commander would you know, like we we just
need to match firepower. You know, it's mantoma understood. Yeah,
I mean a lot of what goes into a lot
of what goes into combined arms warfare, I mean always
then and now, but also specifically, I mean, yeah, the
German General Staff has orianded towards you know, warfare is
the advance of fire, but it's not you know, packing
as much firepower onto onto onto a platform, I mean
for its own sake, you know, because you're you know,
you know, it's it's some kind of it's some king
of caliber race with the enemy is misguided, but it's
understandable why they would have think that way. But interestingly,
what ultimately was agreed upon was uh Lontoma discovered and
this was abided because he pretty rapidly won the confidence
of the Spaniards. We'll get into that interesting that paradigm
and kind of interplay the sociology of it in a minute.
But uh, what was most effective was UH have one
tank per section for per company size. Like a tank
section people would be you know about fifteen ten to
fifteen panzers, like one for every one. Uh one retrofitted
thirty millimeter gun or twenty millimeters main gun for every
fifteen ten to fifteen panzers. Was what made it most
effective because you know they could you wouldn't you wouldn't
sacrifice you know, the your defensive armor, you know, but
you could bring the firepower to bear that was required
you know in in in killing enemy tanks or you know,
assaulting hardened targets.
Speaker 1: But UH.
Speaker 2: Was also revolutionary was Comps Group TUMA as it came
to be. It was reinforced by the three tank companies
were reinforced by an anti tank section, you know, because
I think of eight anti tank guns. The early models
which again this is another this this platform popped up
in the Second World War some but it was basically,
you know, obsolescent because they didn't have the power to
kill you know, the main battletanks like the TV four.
It was the Ponzer abdur khanon.
Speaker 1: And uh.
Speaker 2: One of the things people today, unless they're kind of
students of World War Two or like private service type guys,
the advent of a main battle tank you know, which
is uh, you know, which which can function you know,
somewhat like an assault gun, you know, has the power
to kill enemy tanks, you know, like going to its
only to its penetration capabilities and things, you know, like
having that in on one platform. Like that's that that's
a post World War two innovation. I mean it can't
it started coming about during the Second World War. But
you know, your tanks are assault guns are dedicated you know,
anti tank platforms. They these were like discrete, discreetly purposed
set pieces. Which is interesting. But but Tom was deployed
as an obst latnant, which is a lieutenant colonels approximately.
Franco appointed him quote Tank Tank Inspector, which seems on
its face largely symbolic of a title, especially when you
consider that there wasn't a dedicated tank element, you know,
armed element in the Spanish army, because there wasn't in
any army really except you know, France and Germany, and
then in both cases it was nascense in Italy too.
But Uh, this he Ventoma enjoyed tremendous authority, and there's
a lot of surviving correspondence in the form of telegrams
between Toma, Franco's staff, Franco himself. One of the primary
liaisons between between Onon Toma and Uh and the Spanish
high command was Uh, a German who'd come up through
the ab there but he joined up with the Phalange
just outfit and he was fighting in Spain against the
communists before you know, the Reich even deployed forces, and
he ended up working as Vontma's interpreter. It's hard to
find out a lot about him, but he's a fascinating character.
If I can find out more about him, Adolf Klaus
was his name, I'll include it. But he became Onntma's
official interpreter. And despite the inherent tentions, frankly, there was
something of a classic culture is like stant not just
because Montma was kind of the consummate like Teutonic officer, like,
very uncompromising, very rigid, you know, very very much a
task master. The Spanish army was tough like nobody would
say that it was not, and I mean frankly, they
would not have undertaken his crusading as the Communists facing
the kinds of odds that were extant, like were they
not game tough men? But they were all fucked up.
Their army was not at all professionalized. You know, you
still had a lot of aristocrats in in in the
officer ranks who felt entitled the things. You know, it
was rife with corruption, you know, Uh, there was all
kinds of favoritism. You know that had million to do
with the with an actual battlefield performance of suitability for command.
There's vestigial trappings, that code of Hidalgo. And on Tom
it issued a scathing report when it'd only been in
country a couple of months. Among other things, he came
to notice that although there's many volunteers, like for the
tank branch, a bunch of other men, it's simply been
ordered there by Spanish commanders who wanted to get rid
of them, you know, so I will send them. This
guy's a trouble maker were like I don't like him,
or like maybe I want to even screw his wife
or something. I know, I'll send him, to send him
to the Count of Religion. And Valma pulled no punches,
and he uh, he threatened to leave. He threatened, in
his words, uh, you know, just just just like resign
command and leave. And he was able to convince Franco
or more properly, I mean, I mean Franco was a
Franco new what side his bread was buttered on. He
recognized he needed the Germans, and he needed von Toma.
But the whoever in the high command were, you know,
his primary points of contact, he was able to finesse
them to you know that look like, whoever the men
you send me, they've got to be the constant the
Ponzert group. They've got to be comfortable with a variety
of functions and roles of a type that you are
not habituated to and probably are probably are our occupational
functions of first impression, you know, like I said, they
had to be psychologically tough and fortified to deal with
the inherent difficulties of fighting and armor. They he said
that just in in in raw like staff needs or
personnel needs. You know that Thomas said there there had
to be at least fifty volunteer troops posted at all
times to the tank school, you know, the tank training
around and on Tone was overseeing twenty five dedicated gunner trainees,
twenty five dedicated drivers you know being uh you know
after after their initial training subjective, they should then undertake
a four week course, a combat training course, upon completion
of which they could be immediately posted a front as
needed as replacements to be a constant rotation of tank
crews you know, who are highly trained in every every
function of armored warfare. You know, they they get her,
you know, they they were habituated and uh, they'd be
accompanied by their officers or n c os you know
that had overseen them during the training cycle. And Monton
insisted upon this too. This is a general postulate that
was to become doctrine. Squad CEOs who are who would
be n c os in the Spanish Army, I believe,
you know, like senior n c os and company commanders
who would be officers they they when tod says they
had to always be present with their squad and company
actively leading the men from the front. This was not
this cold. You know, this was not negotiable. And he
concluded this report by stating openly that if the tank
section cannot make up for the casualties that you know
they're going to suffer with troops and commanders and n
c os or were both tactically and technically proficient, that
we're going to lose the war. You know. It's just
there's no two ways about it. You know, this war
is going to be one or lost with the ground element,
and uh, it's going to be one by proper deployment
of the of armor. Okay. And now I hope it's
coming into focus. Why I subjected the listeners to that
extended introduction about the revolution and military affairs and Meerscheimer's
postulates they're in and the you know that what's what
can be thought of as the Blitz Greek controversy, Okay,
because what I am positing is in buttle to both
of those perspectives, as I'm sure people are discerning. I'm
not any kind of military expert at all, Okay, but
I do know something about history, and I do know
something about you know, the Vermont, all right, and I think, uh,
I know something about military science as much as uh,
you know, like a wayman who's not like a game
theorist or like a prior service officer type. Can you know,
people are welcome to take me to task for this,
and I mean it, you know, I make myself available
anybody who wants to debate these things that I propose.
But you know, like I said, I'm relying upon the
direct testimony of the participants to these events and uh
you know, the and relying upon you know, the conditions
leading to the outcome of disengagement. You know, it's I
don't think it can be said that I'm speculating on
TOMA also, and again this is something that people generally
only discussed from the econics. The Battle of France. I
realized the first open ended deployment of the fair Michtles
in Poland. But Poland didn't have a meaningful, uh you know,
tank section. So we're talking about you know, modern combined
arms between you know, between forces where it's like a
general parody you know, technological as well as numerical. Our
R analysis begins in nineteen forty, but Antma directed that
tank companies can only could not operate in isolation from
one another. They had to utilized, They had to utilized
massed firepower and advance of fire. An addition, the transport
company and the supporting mobile workshop and maintenance company. You know,
they had to be maintained at optimal capabilities and deployed
to the front at all times and support the assault element.
You know, uh, regardless of the drain that this is
gonna you know, place on on the regular infantry and
on you know, the corp of engineers and anybody else.
You know, this is yours, this is your assault element.
This is the share punt of your assault element. You know,
it has to take absolute priority and that yeah, okay,
we take that for granted today. But again this is
this is nineteen thirty six in Spain. Okay, armored armored
warfare as we know it doesn't exist yet, you know,
and this is four years this is three three years
and some months before the Battle of France. Okay, So
this is remarkably sick. And I spoke a moment ago
about there's a lot said, especially because you know, relations
were not always particularly amiable, you know, between the Germans
and their Latin allies, whether we're talking about you know,
the Italians of the Spaniards. A lot of people insinuate
that there was a kind of like ugly racial prejudice
at work there. I think that's overstated what came to
be known, uh perhaps kind of you know. I mean,
it's what came in on as the Tomori affair, which
seems to overstate the significance of it, you know, by
characterizing it as if with some sort of scandal. On
December thirty first, nineteen thirty eight, Vontova sent an urgent
telegram to Infantry Colonel Ricardo Fernandez de Tamer. He was
the primary liaison with Franco's high command or the equivalent
of a general staff okay, in some basic capacity, and uh,
this was going into the final phase of the war.
Vntoma demanded no uncertain terms to be informed beforehand of
any change of an operational or logistical nature, or any
personnel related matter or policy. And this had all these
things that to be subject to his veto or approval,
you know, And he reiterated, I you know, I was
appointed by Franco his tank inspector, you know. And is
is a right demand is not immediately obeyed, I will
withdraw my contribution. In his words, so again this is
him threatening to throw his hands up and resign. You
could read that as him being a prima donna of
a sort. I think he was entirely serious. I don't
think that can be disputed. And and again you're looking
at this army, which you know in the Spaniards, which
again has some very core of very game tough men,
but it's unbelievably and most comically corrupt, you know. Uh,
and it's only kind of held together at the level
of a general officers by people like Tom Marie, who
were you know, and later Surrouano sooner, who will get
into it, was a great man. But uh, you know,
cracking the whip on these people was uh what was essential?
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It doesn't owe as some kind of like Teutonic racism
against you know, Latins or something, which, uh, that kind
of interpretation has become increasingly common. I've noticed, you know,
even in like military history, which is supposed to be
just kind of like hard and fast accounts of the facts,
you know, and the uh, the quantifiable side of things.
I think that's bullshit, you know, I mean, that's why
I but it's also there's what came of of, uh,
the Thammary memo was or telegram, bantmac Gott, whatever he wanted.
He got everything he wanted, you know, and he he
he basically became the de facto you know, commander or
armed forces for nationalist Spain, you know, and that's that
goes to short the degree to which the Wehrmacht was
the key to you know, uh nationalist victory in the war.
It wasn't you know, i U the loof Off made
a tremendous contribution. And and like we discussed, you know,
in the previous two episodes, Erhard Milch was it was
a was a military genius and an incredible commander and
one of the greatest air commanders of all time. I
take nothing away from that, but it was you know,
wars are one you know, by by the ground element, Okay,
they are, and this was essential to that effort. And
we're not just talking about you know, with without von Tolma,
like there is no there is no there is no
Spanish armored element. You know, you're throwing your you're throwing
Spanish entry at these T twenty six tanks. They're being
cut to pieces, you know. So the fact not only
that he was able to constitute you know, armored force,
but before there had been nothing. But he managed to
do this really with a handful of pans or ones,
armed with a couple of light machine guns and not
particularly durable armor. And he was able to convince so
much of proud Spaniards to basically like hand him like
absolute authority over the over the entire enterprise. That's that's
nothing sort of remarkable. I don't think it could be contested.
But there's a subsequent and particularly in like the final
months of the war in ninet thirty nine, they developed
this kind of like genuinely amicable cordiality, at least as
far as you can discern through the language barrier and
through the you know, brevity of of these written communications
and telegrams between Montona and tamer But the uh, the
rest of these Spanish officers too, who initially had a
you know, been not out and out hostile because they
realized this a various situation and that they needed they
needed the Germans. But you know, they certainly Spaniards are
a proud people if nothing else, and I it was
a better pill for them to swallow to seed control
a Veramacht officer in that way. Although there's no shame
in that. You know, the Vermacht was the best and
they're they're the greatest of all time. By the end
of the war, ultimately, Spanish tankers they were undergoing a
sixty day course basic course for all personnel, you know,
those uh, those who are trained to be drivers as
well as those training to be gunners. It was thirty
days of theoretical training, thirty days of practice duration and
then UH intensive combat training and then deployment to the
front as needed. There's a constant you know, like as
has discussed a moment ago, there was a constant flow
of replacements, you know who UH had at least cohesion
within the squad of a KI and that only comes
from you know, living and UH fighting together ordinarily because
they they'd gone too the training cycle and a lot
of these men were combe veterans too, just not of
you know, obviously not of fighting an armor you know,
some were some had no no prior experience, but they
were the minority. But the UH what's fascinating too is
that the UH the anti tank element that Montou insisted upon,
that particular assault gun. There was a three point seven
centimeter assault gun. It was manufactured by Ryan Medel borsing
and it rapidly became ubiquitous like that itself, that like
that making model itself as well as reverse engineered knockoffs
in the in the in the Red Army, in the
in the US Army, the Japanese imitated it, uh the
the the Wehrmacht faced them in the in the Benlux
countries when they went through Holland. The Italians deployed it,
you know, as late as uh as late as forty three,
like around the time the Selearial landings. So again, like
even even though these uh pretty much every pretty much
every weapons platform we've described again it was like obsolescent,
but they had been a World War Two, but these
were perfectly suited to the Spanish battlespace, and it was uh,
it was the experience of these platforms they're you know,
in heavy combat over years that led to the development
of you know, successor technologies. And I find that fascinating.
And you know, that's why, like I said, there's plenty
of historians who posit that the the Second World War
actually started in Spain. From his historics, it's gotta hit
Glian perspective. I've got more than a little bit of
sympathy for that perspective. But it's also military objectives were
oddly bound up with policy objectives in the twentieth century
in a way that was not conceivable before or since.
And it wasn't just that, you know, the German rech
and Hitler himself had a concept of Laban's wrong and
racial posterity and the need to develop Europe into a
superpower because the age of the superpower arrived. That was
part of it, but it owed also everybody, from Werner
Sombart to George Sorell to Ernest Younger made the point,
you know, sometimes obliquely, sometimes very directly that just the
nature of labor and production and technics in the first
half of the twentieth century just lent itself to warfare
and organized violence at scale just became something like potentialities
therein like led to it being a tactic of first recourse,
you know, whether you're talking about the internal situation of
states or whether you're talking about you know, resolving dentist
claims as were always you know, an ongoing issue in
uh European cabinet politics. You know, there's not I made
the point again and again. It's fascinating that the German
contribution to the Enlightenment kind of their only full embrace
of rationalism was in military science. To Clausalitz, but war
is not just diplomacy by their means or politics by
their means. There's always a political aspect of warfare. But
going to war under solve political problems, you know, in fact,
it almost never does. The twentieth century in a rare capacity,
there was a perfect congruence between UH military power and
the ability to realize high political objective is and that
is kind of the moral of the story here, there
is one. I realized that this was a very heavy
UH kind of technical discussion, but it's important to understanding
the German contribution to the war, and I wanted to
this is this is my dedicated Condo Relegion episode. We'll
get into the Flange, and we'll get into the ideology
of the Spanish nationalists, and we'll get into kind of
the development of the situation there in the next episode.
But I wanted to get this out of the way. Plus,
I hope people find it interesting because I I mean, admittedly,
one of my primary research areas is the Third Reich,
but even were that not the case, that this positive
variable in the Spanish Civil War was then intervention of
condo religion or by condo religion. So I think, uh,
I think it's just material on its own terms.
Speaker 1: Today has been a long day. Give plugs and we'll
get out of here.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, you can find me always on substick at
real Thomas seven seven seven dot substick dot com. In
a couple of weeks, I'm launching season two of the
Mind Phaser podcast, and when I do, all the season
one episodes will be available for free. A lot of
things are gonna change in my content brand. I think
everybody will find that to be a positive change. I've
got a lot going on. I'm still on Twitter, uh,
but I am trying to disengage from there a bit,
as I've said, I've uh, I know, I said about
a week ago, I was gonna drop a statement of
my substick about moving forward, like how things is gonna
work relating to you know. I'm gonna make a lot
more stuff free. But also, like I said, I there's
some projects I kind of want to plug that I
I had to put on the back burner, like going
to Frankly, like ill health and stuff. But that's back
on track. I'll explicate that on my substack by this weekend.
I'm not going to take up Peach time when his
show to do that. But thanks again for the invitation
today and always, man, I hope everybody found us to
be constructive and stimulating well.
Speaker 1: And I just want to encourage people to go to
Thomas's substack and subscribe. I mean I I went there,
read one free article and subscribed and immediately started promoting
Thomas's work on Twitter. And then Thomas was nice enough
to come on the show and what is this forty
episodes later.
Speaker 2: No, yeah, that's a fantastic endorsement. Man. I mean, not
just because you're a serious guy and you're my friend,
but no, I really really appreciate you getting me a platform,
and otherwise I would not have nearly the audience that
I have. And plus, I mean, like I said, I
think I hope people we'll get something else, and I
think they do because feedback has been uniformly positive, and
it's not It's not always the case with things I do.
So yeah, I can't thank you enough, as well as
the people who tune in and you know what I mean, engaged.
That's just great.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Thomas, thank you. I want to welcome
everyone back to the Pegana Show, part four of the
Spanish Civil War series. I'm going to turn it over
to Thomas seven seven seven and just let him go.
Let me just ask, hey, you doing Thomas.
Speaker 2: And very well? Thanks? What I want to talk about today?
It might seem as I'm jumping around a lot on
the topic, and forgive me for that, but there're some
things that I sort of want to tie in, not
just to our earlier series, revisionist series that we've done,
but also people have been asking questions that I want
to kind of address now, you know, one of which
is to most the two things people ask me why
I'm so critical of Franco, because the Franco is somewhat revered,
and part of that owes the frankly kind of the
lingering kind of a lingering Cold War hangover, you know,
especially after Spain sort of normal lives and you know,
not it was brought into the the e C at
least in a rudimentary way, I mean shipped back then
it was the European it was the e C S,
the Cold and Steel community, you know, by Eisenhower. It
wasn't until much later that Spain was assimilated in the NATO,
But the Franco regime is always it's uh. And I
mean even before that officially assimilated and formally assimilated in
to NATO, there was a lot of you know, during
command post exercises and stuff, you know, like Spain would
you know, be included in a basic way there was
Spain was kind of viewed as you know, the good guy, uh,
like quasi fascist regime.
Speaker 1: During the Cold War.
Speaker 2: And I think that a lot of scholarship, like otherwise
pretty based and pretty correct, you know, right wing scholarship.
You know, that was written in like the seventies and
in the eighties. You know, I think people internalize that
and also you know, their their kind of view of
Franco is of you know, the Flange movement and you know,
the heroics of of the war and you know kind
of religion and all of that. You know, they they
they don't realize kind of how perfid is and and
and machiavellian Franco was. And I think that could be
justified if if what Franco accomplished with some sort of
enduring political culture, you know, the of of that that
served you know, the Spanish as a people, you know,
and as as a race, you know, in historical terms
and things. But that that's not at all what he accomplished.
I mean, Franco at the end of the day, accomplished nothing.
I'd say that he was a detriment you know, over
the over the long term. But you know, so people
ask I want to get into a little bit like
what exactly you know, Franco's sensibilities were on political matters,
you know, particually at the most critical junctures, you know
which and the most critical obviously would would be the
the warriors that the Second World War, I mean, not
the Spanish War. But also people ask me like what
what exactly was the nature of the relationship, you know,
between Madrid and Berlin and Madrid and the rest of
the Access Alliance, And uh, you know, I've made the
point that Serrano soon there was a great man, and
he was very you know, he was he was very
very pro axis. You know, he he wanted to formally
join the Access Alliance. And we'll get into who soon
there was in a minute. But so I kind of
want to get into that today and then we'll pivot
in the next episode and talk about you know what
the Falange movement was prop and ye pick up as
a follow up, uh, you know to the codroleach An
episode we just did. But for now, for the day,
that's that's what I want to cover. And plus it's
like on my mind, I was, I was researching this
a bunch, like going to some other stuff I'm writing. So,
I mean, it's convenient too, There's only so much time
in the day, and while it's like fresh in my mind,
that's kind of what I wanted to get into. David Irving,
who I I mean, it goes out saying I've got
a huge esteem for him. Irving lived in Spain and
one of his one of the one of his wives
was a Spanish woman. I think his first wife was
a Spanish woman, and he famously said life and quote
life in Spain during the Franco years was very cheap,
very simple, and very unthreatening. There's little criminality, no drugs
and no street muggings. The roads were primitive, the life
was it and the sunshine meet up for everything. I mean,
that was kind of in some ways, that's like a
very English like backhanded compliment. In other ways. It's you know,
it's it's a very on and those suggestion that you know,
Spain was just remained a backwater, you know. I mean
I realized there was a Spanish miracle and uh, you know,
conspiracy conspiracy minded types like say like oh that was
Opus Day, you know, laundering money through Spain under rouspices
of economic development. I don't even I don't have any
opinion on that.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't get into interesting Catholic fights and I'm not
as biggest I don't. I don't tear down the Catholic Church,
you know, at every opportunity like some revisionists do. Quite
the contrary. But regardless of anyone's feelings on that, I mean,
Spain was not exactly lighting the world on fire, okay,
like in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies, you know
it it Uh, it remained kind of an splendid, splendid isolation,
and it was I think about almost as kind of
like a right wing version of of like the Tito model,
you know, like obviously like there there wasn't I mean
that there. I realized that Spain's you know, had and
has like you know, violence, separatist movements and it's ethnically diverse,
but you know, obviously it's it's nothing like the hostility
between between populations like in the Balkans. But you know,
Tito's whole notion was to keep you know, just kind
of keep things frozen and keep this kind of quarantine
almost like prophylactic armor like over you know, the the
nation of the constituted Yugoslavia like contrivance as it may
have been as a state. You know, kept the Soviet
Union out, it kept America out, it kept everybody out,
you know, kept the Germans out, the Bundesler and even
even Germany was very much tethered to the Balkans and
not in geostrategic terms, you know, as we taught about before.
It's why Helmet Cole immediately recognized two Germon's independent Croatia.
But the point is, uh, such that Franco published anything.
I mean, he basically yeah, he basically just uh you know,
he he basically just just just put Spain under lock
and key, like you know, in every conceivable sense, like
figuratively and literally. But again that's not that doesn't generate
anything sustainable. So what what uh what exactly happened between
Germany and Spain. Ribbon Troup was, you know, as foreign
minister was primarily charged with finessing the Franco regime, you know,
to join the war effort.
Speaker 1: It uh, And can ask a question before you is
this this this is something that people would ask were
they in any kind of shape to join? I mean
they just went through three at three at a half
years of hell.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we're going to get into that. Like Franco had,
Franco had a list quite literally ever increasing material demands,
both material and political demands that had to be met
for Spain to join the war effort. Owing to that
very reality, however, it fairly quickly became clear that he
was not negotiating in good faith. You know. The the
the extent of these demands was such that they just
they could not be met, you know, and that was
the whole point. But we'll get into that in a minute.
But what what the Reich needed the Spain? The Reich needed.
The Reich needed unconditional access to Gibraltar. The Reich needed
the Spanish to join in Africa and abandon you know,
the uh, the uh, the uncompromising claims that were making
on French Africa as well, particularly not exclusively Morocco. Finally,
Spain basically needed to need to do avail itself as
as as part of fortress Europe as uh, you know
France said had done admittedly like post defeat, and France
plays into this equation more than people might think. Okay,
the uh France and Germany, despite what people claim, like
there was not like VC France and then free France.
I mean it's uh. Obviously the gaull was uh, you know,
the Allies were suggesting that you know de Gaul was
the true like you know, French president in exile and
that you know, Petend's regime was illegitimate. But Petend was
literally a national hero, okay, and the French accepted the
fact that they were defeated. You know, I posted up
the other week or the other day of my timeline
footage of uh, you know, the Germans like you know
allowing uh, allowing the defeated French like full honors and
allowing to like march past you know, the Wehrmacht like
as they were like saluted, you know, in in full
regalia and everything. I mean, this was very much like
a Westphalian paradigm at work. Okay, you know this idea
that you know, France has hated Germany with this kind
of like hell bent passion, and you know the Vschi
regime was was was completely contrived and was a fiction
like that's not true. And furthermore, the British immediately uh
began attacking French forces in Africa. You know, they killed
thousands of people, you know, not French touristsmen, civilians. I mean,
we'll get into that too. But essentially, what the Reich
needed in the West, they needed France and Spain and
somehow come to terms, you know, on sovereign claims in Africa.
Spain had to you know, cooperate operationally and politically with
you know, a Gibraltar operation, and you know, Spain had
to fortify and you know, prepare for prepared to resist
any Anglo American assault a Spanish or Portuguese coastal soil
and those those you know, those were basically like what
the fears and ambitions were. But even in as things
had developed, I mean with respect to you know, the
pattern of hostilities between combatants, you know, regardless of ideology,
because you know, the war in the West was very
different than the war in the East. There were certain
complexities present there, even in purely geostrategic terms. This what
I just outlined is what would have what would have
been required. Okay, you know, uhwithstanding the idiosyncracies actually were
perceived of, you know, the respective regimes in place and
in VC, in Berlin and in Madrid. It uh. On
September nineteen forty was uh. When Hitler first directed Ribbon Traump,
you know, to push as hard as he could for
the Spanish to cooperate with you know, Gibraltar offensive and
to you know, encourage him to join what he called
the Grand Coalition. Hitler said to Ribin Trump and on
certain terms, every aspirant would have to be left in
the quote heavy belief that his wishes would be largely fulfilled.
Rybind Trump wrote in his own notes that to accomplish
this would require quote fraud on a grand scale. Raymond
Trupp wasn't saying like, oh, Hitler, you know was a
was was you know, anticipating, you know, perpetuating such a fraud.
Like what he was saying was that Hitler's dreaming because
this can't be realized going to the going to the
unwillingness of the of the the parties to the you know,
to you know, to the situation, you know, and their
and their unwillingness to you know, compromise on on issues
that might appear to be of secondary importance from you know,
where Hitler was sitting in Berlin, but you know, was
of paramount importance too, you know, to them, and looking
at it too, like it wasn't just a prestige thing
what Spain and France were looking at in Africa. I
mean these particularly with the you know, the uh, the
realization of strategic airpower, but for yeh uh, these were
extent matters of of of security, you know, to the
states that order the Mediterranean. So I mean that that
should be that should be clear. And plus two they
you know, the Spain in France were not. There wasn't
the there wasn't the ongoing you know kind of enmity
you know, only kind of the tragedy of your strategic
situation that there was between Germany and France. But France
and Spain weren't weren't natural allies by any means, you know,
It's not it's not as if there's some sort of
you know, common bond owing to you know, Latin heritage
and the Roman Church or something. It did it Really
it was just absence, even between Portugal, even between sales
there's Portugal and Franco Spain. I mean that didn't exist,
you know, I mean it wasn't That might seem strange
on some level to people who live, you know, in
kind of the globalized twenty first century, but at the
same time, like it doesn't you know, Europe, a lot
of these a lot of these political cultures were still
mired and kind of like the Warring States period, know,
which endured in Europe until nineteen fourteen. I mean, you know,
in a and not you know, in a in a
real sense, and I'm talking about abstract Postuletz here something.
There's that to keep in mind too. Even a Franco
was more worldly and even at the tend was you know,
a younger man and not you know, this kind of
inflexible you know, octogenarian Field Marshal I. I don't think
it would have been any easier to accommodate, you know,
these kind of competing egos and demands. The uh what
Hitler's plan was at the Berghoff, you know, he his
timetable was this, he was going to contact a former
French ambassador, Poncet or Poncet, who Hitler had always had
a good rapport with. He was gonna feel him out
about a personal meeting with the ten and basically use
him as kind of like his unofficial emissary. He would
go to visit to Ten. He would make his pitch
to pertain that, you know, the United Kingdom, regardless of
the outcome of this war, is going to leave France
out to dry. You know, they've humiliated they've they've humiliated France,
not just at the car but also by you know,
assaulting and sinking. It's a navy in UH Algeria. You know,
it's it's you. You have to accept the situation as
it is that you know, France and London are at war,
and you know Germany is really, uh the only port
you have in a storm. And once he got a
war guaranty from Patent, he would take that to Franco
and UH ask Franco to advocate, if not moderate Madrid's
demands to Morocco. Take that to pretend and use that
as the basis for future collaboration, which seems somewhat hair brained,
but again a lot of what Hitler got done was
based on personal relationships and the fact that he was
able to finesse these relationships into actual policy commitments. Something
this precedent for this and what Hitler had accomplished in
the proceeding, you know, several years, including after September nineteen
thirty nine, you know, so this was not just a
pipe dream, and people can't just dismiss it out right
as oh, you know, that was just Hitler being crazy,
because everyone knows Hitler and crazy, you know, after after
you know, the Battle of Moscow or something or whatever
they like to say. But Hitler interestingly too Pierre Laval,
who was uh the Prime Minister of France, he ended
up being the prime minister of nineteen forty two to
forty four, April forty two to August forty four, you know,
and he'd served previously in the in the same role
in the Third Republic from thirty one to thirty two,
and then I think from ninety thirty five to thirty
six thirty seven. So again that and Hitler and Laval
had had a basic rapport or their respective liaisons, did
you know. But again I raised this because it becomes
somewhat significant later. But it's also like Laval again, he
he was serving you know, the quote VC government, which
supposedly was you know, this illegitimate regime. I mean, this
was not uncommon. I mean, he was one of the
most he was one of the more prominent you know,
cabinet ministers who it's off in the same role that
he had before. It's like the idea this was just
some kind of like you know, client regime that you
know had no kind of like organic legitimacy or something
is nonsense. But Hitler, uh, Hitler sent out feelers to
Laval as well for the purpose of h and Laval
didn't have any formal office at this point, for for
the purpose of getting a personal audience with Pretent, which
was no easy thing. And again, you know, it tells
you too like Hitler's approaching Patent, you know, carefully, and
he's treating him with all the honor and respect of
a field marshal. But also as you know, with sovereign
had a state, you know, I mean, like think about this,
and especially Hitler, who was definitely more kind of cultured
and diplomatically cautious than people allege, but who is not exactly.
You know, a man who favored for nests over or action,
sometimes brute action and the threat of it. You know,
it's like if the VC regime is this completely artificial regime,
Like why isn't a Hitler just directing the Tan to
do whatever he orders? You know? I mean it's that
right there. I mean kind of shoots the pieces the
narrative of you know, VC being artificial or you know,
France just either like not existing after you know, censation
of hostilities in nineteen forty, or you know, being this
just completely astro turf like artificial edifice, you know. And
I bring it up to people again and again, and.
Speaker 1: I mean he went you went over in the World
War two series that when American troops landed in Africa,
who were the first people firing upon them?
Speaker 2: Yeah? It was the French and it was well it's
old too. Yeah. I mean Darlan, who was the you know,
who was the Martinette or I don't even know what
you'd call him, procurator, you know, maybe I mean he
was the military leader of a French Africa And yeah,
he Darlan considered VC to be the legitimate government of France.
And he considered France to be at war with the
United States of America. So yeah, I mean it doesn't,
it doesn't. Yeah, you got you gotta look at France
as one of these not obviously they were not formally
part of the access to alliance and there wasn't that
kind of command and control integration, you know that uh,
you know, such was the case with you know, like Romania,
but or Italy. But they definitely were on the side
of the axis where the rubber I'm at the road
and the key theater of engagement such that you know,
France was still capable of projecting power to protect its
its core interests. And yeah, exactly that was in that
was in Africa. Now, what did Laval say in his
uh response to Hitler? This very much emboldened to Hitler
with respect to you know, his Mediterranean strategy and his
ultimate goal of you know, bringing Frank go into the
fold after his name with the ten like Laval said,
you know, Britain that dragged France into an unwanted war
then abandoned her, you know then you know, made war honor,
smirching her honor and killing her people at marsl Kabur
I breationed catapult. That was July ninety forty, that's where
the British assault and destroyed the French fleet, killing over
twelve hundred people like French servicemen and civilians. And then
more recently in September as we in the as we
mentioned in the port of the car in French West Africa,
and again several hundred, uh, not just servicemen, but but
French civilians were killed. But the but French force is held,
you know, and Lavelle promised, uh to return, you know,
to see this, you know, to seek audience with the
ten and uh, you know, return of the answer in
two days time. And uh that's uh, that's exactly what
he did. October twenty third, Hitler believed ninety forty two
days subsequent, Hitler believed that Franco's willingness would absolutely depend
on the tenor of uh of of of the approach
ten that uh like what is like, what is meant
by that is that Spain at least had to have
they had to believe at least that Hitler was advocating
for the legitimacy their claims in Africa and the Mediterranean
and treating Spain like something of a great something, of
a great power, like however preposterous that might seem. And
I think in that regard, like Hitler had Franco's number,
and it wasn't just uh, it wasn't just for sake
of appearances, like the way you know it was. It
wasn't just like some people speculate. And I mean Franco
was a limited guy and and and kind of a
buffoon like a lot of people I've read it speculated
like well, you know this was only for domestic you know, consumption,
because Franco didn't have an actual mandate anyway other than
from this kind of coterie of officers and you know,
and uh and full who are who are a minority
within the party, I might add, you know who kind
of agreed to cooperate every sensation of hostilities. I don't
believe it to be true at all. I think, uh,
as time went on and as we're Gettato and as
I mentioned this before we went live, Franco's demands were
deliberately like so up tos and so unreasonable that you
know it was it was kind of his way out
of joining the war. But these demands, like you know,
Franco's obsession with Morocco, you know him, you know, saying
you wanted like equality of status like in you know,
in terms of like maritime passage and the Mediterranean. Like
he meant all these things like on their own terms
like over stupid that might seem and he uh, he
actually viewed Spain as some like serious major power, you know,
and again like reposterous is that? Uh? As that might seem.
As it happened, Hitler met with uh. Hitler and the
Ribbin Troup and the diplomatic contingent was the diplomatic contingent
respective way of the Reich and of nationalist Spain met
before Hiller got his audience with the ten on October
twenty third, ninety forty. It was the in the frontier
town of Hindai, Hindi, France. I'm sure I'm butchering the pronunciation.
Hitler was president, obviously, Franco was president. So it was
von Ribin Troff, and so was Serrano. Sooner. Sooner was
the newly appointed foreign minister who was Soroano Soonor he
was Franko's brother in law. But more importantly, he was
president of the traditional of the quote traditionalist Spanish Felanx
and of the Councils of the National Cynical List Offensive.
What that was is that was the that was the
only legal party in Spain, and it was it had
come ab out by merger of the Palange and the
Integralist Catholic Traditionalist Union. Okay, part of the kind of
optics the Franco regime where they claim to both represent
the Church and represent the Falanges, which was a fiction
if anybody knows the history of these tendencies, and we'll
get into that next episode. And there was a revolt
of the Falange against uh against Franco's dictatorship, and that
ultimately the kind of the kind of enduring ripples of
that ultimately led to Sunaire's dismissal because Stonaire actually was
a dedicated Falangist, you know, and had he not been
related to the Cuddillo, he would not have found himself
in this role. And there's a cruel irony here too,
because the Acabam Ribbin Troup and surrounding soon there came
to quite literally hate one another, and they've had quite
a lot of contact during the Spanish Civil War and beyond,
and Ribbon Tromp was beside himself when soon Air was
appointed Foreign Minister and Ribbin Trump was uh the anniversary
of his death. I think it was last year when
the university was death rolled around. I remember talking on
Twitter and in some other on some other platforms with
people I asking me, I want my take on Ribin
Troup was there was some incredible diplomatic coups that Ribon
Trot pulled off, and he had some remarkable insights in
at key junctures. But at the end of the day,
he was an international businessman, okay, in businesses, a diplomats
and and uh, no matter what, the most prestige posting
before he became the Foreign Minister was his ambassador of
the United Kingdom. And no matter who had been in
that role, you know he would he wouldn't he wouldn't
have made any any headway, okay, because you know, for
reasons that should be obvious to anybody, but that we
covered extensively in our earlier series. But remend Tropp was
incapable of of of coming to terms with people who
he developed a relationship characterized a personal animus opposite. And
this is the case of soon Air And you know,
and like I said, sonor not only was he uh
a dedicated philangists, he was he was he was incredibly
pro axis. The previous September, the month prior UH Sooner
visited Berlin, he'd sought out and draw up at the
Foreign Ministry to discuss how Spain could enter the war
on the EXI side. Like now, mind you like, Sooner
knew that Franco was dragging his feet. He knew what
Hitler's demands were, and he knew that those demands were
sound and strategic as well as political terms. He also
knew that, you know, part of Franco's strategy, you would
be the issue demands that could would would not reasonably
be met either because you know, realistically, you know, forces
and being weren't there we're you know, and and and
those that were like that, you know, food stuffs, petroleum, weapons, aircraft,
you know that which was in being you know, Berlin
would never part with because it was an unconsortable demand.
But soon there honestly visited the Foreign Ministry in good
faith to try and realize terms by which uh, you know,
Franko would be painted into a corner in my belief,
in my opinion, you know, such that you know, the
the Reich would contribute, you know, everything that it possibly
could to facilitate Spain's entry into the war. So I
mean soon Air and ribbon Trup wanted the same things
and uh they uh they but they couldn't they, you
know that they couldn't overcome this this kind of personal animus.
What Ribbon Troup reported and Rybon Troup was something of
a haughty twuton of you know, a caricature sort. And
again that's another reason I think he should not have
been in the role that he was. But soon There
uh said that you know, Caudillo demands you know, all
of French, Morocco and Algeria, you know, for Laban's wrong.
But this could proble be finesse if you know, he
was offered Portugal because geographically speaking, in Sooner's words, Portugal
has no right to exist quote and this apparently outraged
Ribbon tro Up. You know, like, who the hell is
a spaindard think he is? You know, Spain is that
is a shit country. It's you know, he's talking like
he's you know, he's talking to me like we're peers.
And you can almost see like if you read about
these personages like you almost you almost like feel this
like outrage ribbon trop But I mean again, if you're
a diplomat, you've got to stay cool no matter what.
But again, part of the tragedy of this is that
a man like soon Air but I think it was
a real hero in a lot of ways. But you
know this, uh, this kind of a you know, this
this kind of self important, pompous Latin guy and uh,
this kind of you know, supremacist to time type like
people like that are gonna mix like oil and water,
you know. And you can just see just kind of
a like like the words jump off the page and
when when you read of this meeting, how you know,
just like what a disaster it must must must have been. Additionally,
Sarron wanted, he wanted, you want to guarantees of military
and economics support, you know, uh, immediately to like you know,
this wasn't he said, he wanted to go back to Madrid,
you know, with with the concrete offer of what you
know Hitler was willing to provide, you know, kind of
like down to the letter, you know, and uh, this
is not that's not the way that that's not that's
not the way diplomacy has done either. You know it
and uh this would be the cost again of of
you know, joining the war and specifically you know, immediately
planning for an operation. This apparently ymen Trot hit the
roof and he said that he'd approached the Fear and
talk about maybe letting uh Spain maintained territorial rights to
uh one of the Canary Islands, but that's it, you know.
He said that Spain's never going to have Morocco. That
you know, France is an essential ally and you're not.
You know this is paraphrase, you know, and uh, finally,
riymen Trop said that you know the aid you're gonna
get is you know, you're you're gonna become a dedicated
you know, destination for German manufacturers. You know, we're gonna
put your people to work, you know, as we see fit,
you know, to stay in the war economy. But you know,
basically you're a coolie, you know, go back. He basically
told him, like, go get his fucking shinebox. And you
know the uh he literally insulted him by you know,
not just portraying Spain as you know, like a future
satellite state, but as like a second rate one at
that as uh, this came as apparently a great shock
to soon error because it uh. I mean again, like
these guys weren't rib and Troup had done business in
America and like actually up until you know, the the
evil World War One and uh and then subsequent he'd
spent a lot of time in Canada, So I mean
he was worldly, but uh like not neither of these
men should have been negotiating anything of uh of of
of of the nature that they were charged with, you know,
like I Sigafreed Cash, I uh, sacred Cash wasn't a diplomat,
but he he was slated to be the gall lighter
of the Moscow UH Commissariat, you know, had it come
to fruition, and he uh he was. He was the
military liaison, uh to the Independent State of Croatia. I mean,
I just think he's an interesting guy. But I in
in counterfactual terms, I was thinking about that, like Sigrey Cash,
like should have been the man negotiating with Spain and
uh it should have been a man from the traditional uh,
from the traditional aristocracy of the church or the church
like negotiating with with Cash. You know. Again, it's a
it's it's it's a splendid example of two men who
basically agree on everything in terms of like ideology and politics,
who you know, could not agree on like what day
it was it uh, And it becomes Franco's private correspondence
to soon error, you know, and his telegrams to him,
but specifically like his private letters. So I mean, you
know that these were intendingly for Senator's eyes. He was
a he was a Franko's effusively praising Hitler as a
wise man, you know, and like a great man. And
you know he was dismissing Ribbond trow up as you
know Ribond Trump is, you know, he's a fool. He
he's uh, he feels to appreciate, you know, what we
can offer the axis and you know these kinds of things,
you know. So again it's and if it's some like
go to show you how essential to I mean, if
you're if you're ahead of state, particularly if you're a
world ord as Hitler was by this point, you've got
to be insulated. I mean not just for you know,
reasons of literal physical security, but you know, because every
anybody and everybody is going to be you know, trying
to sway your opinion and make demands on you and things.
I mean you just you know you you basically have
to communicate to liaison. But it was to show you,
like how how important it is that the man in
that role or in those roles you know, in in
discrete capacities, you know, really really have to you know,
be be able to check their ego at the door.
You know, if there's there was no reason why like this,
this could not have developed into a real you know,
a real strategic uh you know, alliance, you know, in
operational terms, I mean uh he uh. Even after when
a protege as soonerer, a guy named Pedro Gamero del Castillo,
uh in nineteen forty one January nineteen forty one, he
reached out to the press secretary of the German embassy
in Spain, hanslas Are, and he he begged them basically
he's like, look, you know, tell Berlin that a Serrano
snair government in other words, like Franco could be sidelined
or killed. You know, a Serrano snair government, you know,
with soon are at the helm and live with the
Cardillo would commit absolutely the access powers, you know, and
this is incredibly risky, you know, that he was, that
he was talking about these things in a basically above
board capacity with a German diplomatic representative. But I mean
it goes to show you Spain was a house divided.
And it goes to show you too how you know
that the true Falange like pro access element in Spain,
like we're holding out hope still that you know, Spain
would join the access as a you know, as a
as a full partner. It it's unclear whether Lizarre ever
reached Hitler or reached like the right chancery and if
he did, like what he said when it was said
to Hitler, when it was like not the not by
not by Castillo Bote, Hitler said, uh to Walter hewell
later on was uh he said that you know soon
eror and not, you know, trying harder and doing whatever
he could dissuay the Coddillo was quote the great vigger
of the New Spain. And uh, you know Hitler, the
man always who always took the long view. Whatever else
he canna say about him, you know, he realized more
than anybody that you know, Spain's fortunes were inextricably tethered
to Germany's. And if the axis went down, that that
was the end of Spain. You know, it didn't matter
that Franco was able to create his like you know
Garrison Uh. Uh, you know Disneyland, like fascist Disneyland for
thirty years subsequent that, you know, his lasting legacy that
of Franklin. I mean is amounts to exactly zero. Soon there,
uh and uh Castillo proposed they were the ones who
proposed the Blue Division, you know, after the honest of
hostilities with the Soviet Union. I'm June twenty second, ninety
forty one, and uh, you know it's clear that uh,
it's it's good as soon There realized the opportunity that
he'd missed or or or was coxing his own failure
two days after Barbarossa in June twenty there or twenty four,
I've seen it sighted as I've seen both citations of
the date. He Uh. He delivered a famous uh kind
of stump speech uh from the balcony of what had
been Phalange's party headquarters, called Russia is copabal forgive me
portuering Spanish, I don't speak Spanish at all, but translates
as Russia is guilty and it's essentially you know, uh
bellicose apologia for you know, why why why Spain needs
to join you know, the war effort where the flange
need to join the war effort, you know, like all
all true patriots need to slay that you deal Bolshevik beast.
You know. So he was, Uh he was. He was
like like many people, you know, like many great men.
You know, he was complicated. And again that's part of
the tragedy is that Serrano was basically a heroic type
and a great patriot, and you know, kind of circumstances
intervened to uh prevent him from realizing you know, what
he wanted to do. Uh accomplished for the sake of
Spain and you know, the national Socialist cause and everything else.
But back to forgive that, tangent I had to kind
of flesh out who soon there was, to make clear
like what the stakes were of the of the summit
between Hillar and Franco, but also you know, to kind
of understand, you know, how the personages directly engaged, you know,
determine the outcome of uh this negotiation. The basic object
was to resolve you know, outstanding disagreements uh over the
over over the conditions for Spain to join the Access
Powers in their war against ver Hi.
Speaker 1: Okay, Jimmy a favor. You cut out. You cut out
there when you when you first started what you were
going to say right now, you cut out like like
five seconds ago. Can you can you restart that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, No, it's the UH to bring it back
to the summit between you know, Hitler and Franco at
the object of that meeting. It was to resolve, you know,
the outstanding disagreements over over what conditions had to be
met for Spain to join the Axis Powers in the
war against the British Empire. Okay, because obviously, you know,
this is October nineteen forty, the German Reich in the
Soviet Union or not yet at war. Okay, France has
been soundly defeated. The British were defeated at you know two.
I mean, but you know, oning to the only to
the war at all costs crusade. You know, they're refusing
to negotiate, and uh, Hitler doesn't want to go through
a Sea Lion. I think Sea Lion was always a
strategic ruse. But that's another question. But the nail in
the coffin of the British Empire, you know, would be
the Seze chibralter. You know, the Royal Navy would then
be shut out of the Mediterranean. They'd lose Africa, you know,
they'd they'd be they they'd be they'd be a garrison,
uh state on their home islands, you know, and the
U boat fleet could do the rest. Really Okay, the
meeting endured for seven hours. Uh. The Spanish wouldn't waiver
in there. Rather, Franco wouldn't waiver in Uh. Demands that
Hitler described as extraor his demands were. Franco's demands were
the handing over of Gibraltar to Spain once the British
were defeated. Uh this you know, the seating of French
Morocco and part of French Algeria to Spain. The attachment
of French Cameroon to the Spanish colony of Guinea. So basically,
you know, French Africa becomes Spanish afriga Okay, and finally
German supplies of food, petrol, arms and ammunition, uh as needed,
you know, to relieve the critical economic and military situation
to your point faced by Spain after the Civil War,
and you know, and subsequently as needed, you know, for
long term development. Now, Hitler couldn't disturb relations with with
with France, Okay. I mean we just talked about that
was the key that was really the key to you know,
victory in the West. Okay, the key that the key
to n SIG was the defeat of the Soviet Union.
But you know, the Barbarossa hasn't happened yet, and ideally,
you know, if the war in the West can be won,
uh First, I mean that's obviously ideal, even if this
was always a secondary theater and you know, a war
that the Germans did not want to fight, vise of
the UK and you know, the Mediterranean and northern Africa.
But the strategic landscape is what it is, Okay, something
that's important that doesn't nullify uh, you know RHS Stofle's claim,
and I mean Hitler's notion, I mean the notion of
Hitler himself that you know, the like final like final
victory is conquering is when Moscow falls. Okay, But I
just wanted to reiterate that for clarity. But uh, the
only way that this uh, the only way that this
uh that this alliance, uh that this Mediterranean alliance can
work is like like France as the lynchmin Okay, for reasons,
wheready discussed Franco is making that impossible for you know,
for for France to come to terms based on what
he is demanding. And Hillar was beside himself. But also
he just didn't he he didn't understand the abject uh
you know, kind of stubbornness. I mean he he's never
really sabotage the proceed and I believe that's true. Uh
said in Mussolini that he would rather have three or
four teeth extracted than go through that again, that being
negotiation or attempted negotiation with Franco soon there, who was
again he was uh not habituated to being a diplomat
and uh he was apparently something of a boisterous, you know,
an impassionate person and a military man as as well
as a you know, a revolutionary type. He uh he
continually interrupted in a way that apparently Hitler viewed as
totally tactless and still like that Mede Hitler very angry
as a kind of as a kind of would any
sort of like old world Habsburg German. But Hitler especially
it was you know, it's basically like, look if you're
a definitelytic representative, even if you're a foreign minister. You know,
when heads of state are talking, you don't see anything,
you know, I mean, so it's just every every conceivable
sort of aspect of this of this affairs came uh,
you know, a fiasco, you know, a a literal comedy
of errors. But uh, Hitler kept at it even uh
even and even even through you know, when dinner was
served and even afterwards, and uh it uh you know
it it came to nothing. And that was. That was
the last summit. There's the last summer between Franco and
UH and the fere and really like any any official
representatives of of of their respective office, you know, it's
the the Blue Division deployed, you know, to the Eastern Front.
You know, they fought valiantly, particularly at Leningrad. But I
mean that, uh, that was that, you know, there was
no Franco was no nearer to you know, joining the
axis than he had been at you know, prior to
the meeting soon Air. You know, if anything, he probably
sabotaged the proceedings in some small way or possibly in
a major way by his you know, kind of uncouth conduct. However,
well intentioned it might have been, you know, and it was. Uh.
Hitler went on UH to meet uh Patten on the
twenty fourth October. He greeted pretend as the victor of
their done, you know, saluted him, you know again, like
treating him like you know, with all not just all
the honors do a field marshal, but you know as
also as the president of France, you know it uh
you know, but he had nothing he had you know,
he had nothing to offer, you know. In the French.
The Petain's perspective was, you know, we're already at war
with the UK, like what more do you want from us?
You know, And I mean for the record, you know
that continued throughout the war. You know, I don't need
to remind people, you know who another history that the
final defenders of of UH, the CHS Thug and the
fear of Bunker were you know, the French FAF and SS,
you know, Charlote Magne. You know, but it was it
was a you know, he just reiterated, you know, Patain,
you know, it's the France can only afford the role
of non belligerent and official capacities, you know, over the
time being, you know, otherwise otherwise, you know, and defend
a is you know what we can in Africa, you know,
from the common enemy. But you know, beyond that, there's
there's there's nothing to be done unless you know, Spain's
willing to come to terms. And uh.
Speaker 1: That uh.
Speaker 2: Was that kind of the final kind of the final
chapter was the final there the nailing the coffin. Rather
A month subsequent, November twenty eighth, nineteen forty, Ribbon Troup's
ambassador in Berlin the form the German Ambassador to to
Madrid to Spain. In Madrid Eperlin, he relayed that Franco
was now willing to proceed with East of Christy prepperations
Britain's proposed entry into the war if you know Hitler
was willing to you know, if Hitler was willing to
now come to terms, you know, in some way that
you know, both men could live with. Hitler took this
to mean that this meant that Franco was willing to
enter the war immediately, you know, pending uh satisfaction and
conditions precedent. On December fourth, he sent Canarist to Franco
with a personal letter proposing that German troops formally enter
Spain and you know, prepare uh to assault Gibraltar, which
six was six hundred miles from the frontier. Okay, so
we're talking, you're talking about a real deployment across across
you know, the Spanish heartland, which is no small thing.
But again it I mean considering, considering, you know, the
course of negotiations. This w was not this was not
an outlandish request. And let's forget that, you know, German
forces spent three years fighting, you know, on Spanish soil
to you know, guarantee the existence of Franco and his people,
you know, and subsequently the government that they now you know,
they now uh, they now enjoyed in Madrid. So this, uh, this,
this was perfectly well placed in customary you know terms
as well as you know, the commonly accepted sort of
rights and privileges of uh of allies. You know. Franco
afforded Canarius along audience on December seventh, nineteen forty as
an auspicious day, auspicious day, you know, one year prior
to Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor exactly. Franco said to Canaris
that for economic reasons relating to you know, the terrible
cost of the Civil War, Spain could not be ready
to assault the UK by January tenth. Spain could only
and Spain could only join the war. Furthermore, if Britain
was on the on the brink of collapse, you know,
any kind of attrition contest, you know, Spain just could
not commit to that, which again was just you know, uh,
it was it was, it was, it was, it was.
It was just. It was just Franko's favorite method once
again of finding a way to to you know, to
not to not commit to the alliance. Well, uh, wrong
footing his enemy and some in some way how we're transparent,
that might have been it. Uh. Hitler's rebuttal or response
uh to the Canaris meeting was uh, you know, just
again you know too, to reiterate, uh, you know, the
that Gibraltar was essential that you know, unless uh, unless
the United Tignam was deprived of its access to the Mediterranean,
you know it, Uh, it would soon prevail in North Africa.
Hitler had no illusions about that, and ultimately that would
be the end of Spain. And you know, he reminded
him too that without the help of you know, himself
and Mussolini, either would be nationalist Spain today, nor would
they be any Cardillo, you know. And he said that
Franco's vacillating attitude was not befitting a general officer, which
seemed to stink deep because uh, Franco proceeded to angrily
denounce not Hitler himself, but he gained close. He told
Canarious that he never vacillated. Uh you know that he
he he was always committed to the cause. But that
you know, Spain has been bled white, you know, because
the fight against Bolshevism, you know, occurred, you know, on
their territory first and foremost. And you know, how dare
you going to question the sacrifice of Spanish manhood and all?
But the fear was right and Franco was wrong. And
I mean it's that simple. I and again too, I
mean aside from that, I mean, all all this which
is obvious kind of who's colbal and who you know
was responsible for the inability of you know, any any
kind of real concourd to emerge between uh, you know, Germany, Italy,
Spain and France. It's clear that, I mean, Franco was
a unless one puts, you know, self preservation above all
other goods. It's it's obvious that Franco was really kind
of a pox on on the house proverbial house of
of of all patriotic forces then so mobilized and engaged
against UH, you know, the Bolsheviks and UH and their
allies and Britain. This this situation was so complicated by
Musolini jumping the gun and informing Hitler that he intended
to assault Greece, which in turn obviously would have given
the UK a pretext to occupy Crete and then you know,
to bring UH their strategic bombers within striking distance of
the Mediterranean theater. I mean, there was there was other
things too that were rendering this the timetable uh, you know,
and it's that we're putting pressure on you know, that
the strategic timetable for any sort of remedial action to
be taken with respect to Gibraltar or anywhere else the Mediterraneans.
Speaker 1: So go ahead was in Hitler really at that point
had just asked Mussolini to make sure that the Suez
Canal was secure, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there was an ongoing there was an ongoing uh,
you know, controversy as to you know, to what degree
the uh, the North African campaign should be prioritized and
to what degree then you know that this this was
before uh you know Rammel had uh had had you know,
struck these great victories out and you know in uh
in the North African theater. I mean initially it was
initially the average were deployed, you know, to relieve you know,
the Italians who were you know, failing in every conceivable
capacity and operational terms, you know. And then later when uh,
you know, Ronald I think it's somewhat over overly praised
because these are romantic figure and plus you know, people
look at him as a good guy because he he
he was wrongfully implicated in July twenty plot, but he
was nonetheless implicated and you know the s D Gestapo
you know, forced him to commit suicide. But he it
was uh, you know, it was it was Rommel's you know, uh,
you know, Prussian commitment to missionary and at tactics like
ritt Large, which kind of you know, which kind of
made North Africa into like a into like a you know,
a real battle theater because of the fact is that
he kept succeeding. But yeah, the the uh that that
was basically the Italian armies. That that's what that that,
that's what their responsibility was, you know, vis a vis
the UH, the Access Alliance and that UH. And yeah,
the Italian army in North Africa was problematic. I think
the Italians fought pretty heroically on the Eastern Front, but
the U and in the Balkans, their their mountain troops
were real game and real tough.
Speaker 1: But the.
Speaker 2: The Italian forces in Africa were not. They were not good,
and they were a liability in a lot of ways,
with some exceptions. I don't I don't want like Italian
people to get mad or something or think I'm saying
something bad about them.
Speaker 1: I'm not.
Speaker 2: But the Italian army.
Speaker 1: Had You've already pissed off the Spanish, So I.
Speaker 2: Mean, yeah, I don't wanna. I don't know, it's set.
I don't want a whole form of Latin people who
are mad at me. But the UH, you know, that
was that was that was that And a lot of
this too. I mentioned, Uh, I mentioned Vaulter, who.
Speaker 1: As you said, I mentioned and then you cut out.
So what did you say?
Speaker 2: I said, I mentioned Walt Walter. Hewell a minute ago. UH.
A lot of this testimony comes from hewell, you know,
and what he what he documented in his diaries and things,
and hewell was he was a career diplomat and fter
nineteen thirty three he became chief at the East Asian
disc of the Foreign Ministry, and then during the war
he became special liaison between the Foreign Ministry and the FEAR,
and he and Hitler became quite close. And Hewill was
an interesting guy, kind of like an unassuming guy, like
the kind of guy who is a great diplomat. Like
if if hewell could have been negotiating with soon Air,
there would have been a very different outcome, I believe.
But my point is that uh, Hewle's uh, he's a credit.
He is a credible source on this, and he he
really had no observing these things in is like private
diary where he was talking to himself, you know, like
here there really would be no reason why to let
finesse these things. And frankly too, I mean again, I
don't think, I don't think. I don't think anybody really
looks good or reasonable in this MILEU except the Hiller himself.
You know, I'm sure that take makes people mad too,
But speaking within you know, the bowd irrationality of h
of you know, the strategic planning, you know, based on
the conditions confronted you know, by all combatant states on
the acts of side as of October nineteen forty. And
you know this that this should not had developed the
way it did. But it goes to show you the
human factor, you know, and people and there you know,
idiosyncrasies and personality and and everything else. I mean it is,
uh is like like like sabotages the best laid plans
and nations more than any any army could you know
much of the time. Man Like, that's not just some
dumb cliche. But that's uh, that's the story of Uh,
that's the story of you know, the Cadillo and the Furor,
and you know the conspicuous absence of Spain and you
know on the on the battlefields of World War two
save for the Blue Division later the Blue Legion when
they were reconstituted, who were very who fought heroically again.
But you know, that's that's why. And that's all I
got for too good, Let's do plugs and get out
of here. Yeah, for sure, I realized I haven't been
plugging my website. I do have a website now, it's
number seven h m A S seven seven seven dot com,
which is Thomas seven seven seven dot com. It's kind
of like a one stop not kind I mean, it's
a one stop place for all my content, okay, And
I still got to like tweak some stuff that, like
my Twitter feed like shows up there in the timely manner,
but pretty much all like that video stuff I do
like here with Pete and other things, you know, shows
up here, like my podcast, you can like access it there,
you know, just like one off streams I appear on
and stuff like that, you can find it there. And
I'm gonna sucks it up and like fix some of
the glitches. And but I mean you can go here
now and it's like up and running, okay. But the
stuff that doesn't work particularly well yet, that's getting worked out. Uh.
You can still find me on Twitter if you request
to follow me, I will let you follow me. I
just rubber stamp, but does it work. But I've got
to have my tweets protected because otherwise, like a bunch
of freaks like Zert rush me and get me banned,
which just happened like twelve times. I'm not just talking
you shit. You can find me at substick that if
you can find my podcast, it's a real Thomas seven
seven seven do subseck dot com. And that's pretty much
what we're up on. Like a lot of things are
happening now. I know I've been saying that for a minute,
but I am a one man operation. Like with my
dear friend and editor Rake, we're a two man operation.
But I'm I'm working on the second season of Mind Phaser,
at which time the first season episodes will all become free.
But there's a help a lot going into that. There's
a help alot going into like the video we're shooting
and I've got a help lot of footage, but I
got I gotta make it into something and it's damn
time consuming. Just please get me to bear with me,
like I'm getting shipped together. But it's and it will
be dope, but it's just taking time. That's all I got.
Speaker 1: Well until part five. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it, Thomas, I likewise, man, thank you.
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the show. We
had a little delay in between episodes because Thomas's life
is exciting.
Speaker 2: How you doing, Thomas and doing well? Man? Yeah, I
apologize for that. I want to, Like I was telling
Pete before we went live, a huge amount of people
reached out out of genuine concern and that's incredible, man,
you know it's really that. I mean not just because
that you know makes anybody feel good, you know that
they have friends that love them. But that's the essence
of the social capital I'm talking about all the time,
is like building you know, not just pragmatic that works
for you know, like polayable action and things, but in
day to day life, like you know, when crises emerged,
you know, as they always do it on personal terms,
I guess someone's being terrorized by the regime. You know,
there there's there's a network of people that organically like
springs in action, you know, and that so that that's
been that's kind of the sober lining man like if
there if there was one, because that you know, that's
the structure very much kind of like came into focus,
you know, owing to them, owing to owing to something
that I mean, frankly, in the broad scheme like was
not a big deal, but it's when it's going on,
it's fucked up and you like disappear off the earth
if you get arrested because they take away all your
means of communication. So I just I didn't I'm not
trying to eat up the clock. I just I just
wanted this is a good opportunity to kind of like
address our friends direct. But today, I uh, this is
this is the last episode where i'll I'll approach it
and what appears perhaps to be kind of a scattershot
topical orientation, and we'll get into like the nuts and boats,
the battlefield situation and how it resolved in the next episode.
But to understand the Spanish War, and frankly too, to
understand the path that Franco struck out out as regards
to the Fear and the third Right, as well as
you know Spain and it's geostrategic situations generally, You've really
you've got to understand how unusual the state and as
society Spain is. You know, it's a complete outlier. And
what I mean by that is this, even you know,
I disagree, I take strong exception to people who they're
trying to identify, you know, and people with people, and
then a lot of a lot of people who abide
kind of Meersheimer's perspective do this, and I only reference
that because generally I agree with those people on certain matters,
and this is one of those cases where I don't.
But you know, they posit that there's this kind of school,
there's this discrete, you know, sort of school of of
of political thought, particularly strategic matters, you know, of realism,
and that you know, there's some there's some sort of
straight line basically linear trajectory between things, cities, you know,
all the way through the people at games to burn
them in this nonsense. However, the first really modern political
theorist was was Machiavelli. Okay, and there's a reason why
Machiavelli he identified he had identified Ferdinand and Isabella as
the first true like you know, are architects of the
modern state, you know. And then then and this proceeded,
this proceeded not just with failure, but the thirty years
were itself by one hundred years. You know. So there's
there's this lyrid economy of Spain, because Spain, you know,
in living memory, it's always views either the sick man
of Europe or this kind of you know, backward state comparatively,
or the state that's you know, compromised in terms of
its social sociological architecture, you know, by by reactionary tendencies,
and you know, things that are more characteristic of the
developing world, you know than they are uh that, than
they are Europe of you know, America and North Asia.
But Spain was a century ahead of the curve and
its political development. You know, even amidst uh these arguably,
you know, conditions have impoverished you know, material and social capital.
And that's a curious question because to a lesser degree
and in different capacities. You know, Russia was like that too.
You know, there was this tremendously evolved intellectual uh climate
in Russia. I mean, and it had horrible outcomes. Okay,
I mean that's that's why Communis and found such fertile ground.
But you know, again, right, Russia was decades ahead in
terms of in terms of in terms of the in
terms of the intellectual paradigms. It was playing with a
state craft. But in terms of material capital and the
conditions that allow, you know, for material capital to truly
flourish and you know, and and provide technological development, those things,
those things were absent. And that also you know, Spain,
unlike most empires space to say Spain, the Spanish Empire
didn't become rich. It probably and it's in the terms
we understand wealth and money. This Spain, the Spanish emperica
zine that was was was the wealth these empire that
ever existed. Okay, you know, it spanned this planet. It
was able to challenge the Royal Navy. You know, it
was just it was just it was it was a
juggernaut basically, you know, it was just incredibly powerful. But
it's social art sector didn't really become more complex with that.
You know, it's it's wild we overstated or people to
talk about this, you know, the middle class like it's
this ambassador class and like it can finesse these intrinsic
you know, alleged hostilities you know, between a master and serf,
from between like aristocrat and peasant, or between uh you know,
proletarian and and and and a high bourgeois and that's nonsense,
but there is like something of a causal nexus there.
I think it's more just that, you know, as so
theological architecture becomes more diversified owing to the increased complexity
of economic activity and behavior and scale, that there just
becomes more and more kinds of threasic complex integration and
interdependence between institutions and people's and that appears from without.
You know, if you want to like turn into event
diagram as this kind of middle class you know, being embarassed,
you know, playing an ambassador role, but regardless of you know,
the chicken or the egg and how that resolves in
one's own mind or in real terms. That that didn't
happen in Spain, Okay, you have this starkly divided society
and they, you know, finally when the nineteenth century arrived,
you know, the Spanish didn't. Spain had a totally different
experience in the nineteenth century than everybody else, did, you know,
like the long piece, they didn't experience that. Instead of
the experienced incredibly you know, chaotic circumstances. They were punctuated
by crisis after crisis after crisis after crisis, you know,
eighteen o eight to eighteen fourteen, you know, they were
occupied by Napoleon. You know, they didn't just they weren't
just you know, they weren't just part of you know,
the alliance that at the Battle of Nations or something.
You know, they they they were under occupation for for
close to a decade, you know, and from there it
you know, like we talked about in a week or
two ago, really the only kind of punctuated military crises
in the nineteenth century in Europe were localized. You know.
There was like the Franco Prussian War, it was the
Crimean War, but neither one of those, you know, really
were as impactful, like outside of a theater level. And
there's the eighteen forty eight revolutions, but that uh, that
that that that was nothing like nineteen seventeen or like
or like seventeen eighty nine, you know. But in the
case of Spain, they they're uh they they they came
to civil war. Conditions were emerging in eighteen twenty two,
eighteen twenty three, and French military intervention ended that eighteen
twenty seven. There was the Catalan insurrection. You know, in
these and these and these uh these uh these secession
oriented uh you know, the political movements on sundry in
Spain like always had uh always had traction. In Victoria
ways eighteen thirty three, eighteen forty it was the first
Carlist War, which was incredibly bloody, you know. Eighteen fifty nine,
you know, the Moroccan orb independence pops off eighteen seventy
eighty and seventy six, that's the Second Carlist War. During
this whole time, Spain was fighting in in in the Americas,
you know, because of these Hispanic American colonial revolts. You know,
eighteen sixty eighteen eighteen sixty eight to eighteen seventy eight,
there's the Ten Years War in Cuba and the subsequently
Spain literally fought America. You know, I mean this, this
is the uh, the degree, the degree with and in
Spain and the Two Cuban and the Two Cuban War
has lost over one hundred thousand kia. You know. No
European power absorbed that much military attrition. There were lost
as much territory and so rapid its time frame as
Spain did in the nineteenth century. You know. Uh, I'd
say what happened in Spain at reduced scale and adjusting
for strategic conditions of the of the of the power
plitical landscape, what happened in Spain was as catastrophic as
what happened to the Soviet Union? Are you believing? More so?
Because Spain was quite literally violently ripped apart, you know,
and it was this is how the this is what
gave birth to the Spanish revolutionary Left. Okay, the Spanish
revolutionary Left was always more savage, more sanguinary, more aggressive,
more unwilling to compromise than than anybody except probably the
Bolsheviks who succeeded them and uh, you know in the Jacovans,
who inspired every every radical tendency subsequent. But in eighteen
twenty one it is kind of viewed as the year
that the Spanish revolutionary Left came about. What they were,
the big the kind of seminal moment in uh in
a subsequent to you know, fernand and Isabella, you know,
creating the Spanish National state was the Constitution of eighteen twelve.
And I'm sure I'm gonna butcher this pronunciation, but these
liberal reformers, like some of them are quite radical, you know,
who are most responsible for structuring and authoring that constitution
or they were called Dokianistas or Dosinistas. I don't know
if it's a hard or soft seat, but they were.
They pretty rapidly moderated after they got their weight, and
they tried to implement a parliamentarian structure, you know, of
true sort of power sharing arrangements at interval that by
which you know, due process would be abided regardless of
the outcome of parliamentary elections. Okay, this is the last
time any faction in the left ever abided that. And
by eighteen twenty one, the disinfection from within, you know,
essentially the young turks Loo came to known as the Exaltados.
Their whole notion was, look, you know that the prize
in political contest, you know, within the state or the
state itself. Okay, if you know, if if if, if
we're gonna you know, if every if every three or
six or eight or ten years, you know, we're gonna
we're gonna briefly capture, you know, we're gonna really capture
you know, legislative majorities and things, you know, and then
just rush to you know, implement as much relief to
you know, to uh, to our class comrades as as
as as possible. But then immediately, you know, hand the
range of state over to our enemies, and watch that
be undone. You know, we're that that's that's uh, that's
beyond a fool's Errand you know, it's it's it's a
it's gonna and and it's it's beyond and even pointless
some you know, sort of acceptance of the status quo,
because that like obviously over time, that simply grinds down,
you know, the revolutionary uh impetus, like in in the
minds of of anyone who participates in the system, because
you know, a definition the system exists in new realizes,
you know, not just like like like reformist tendencies, let
alone revolutionary ones. Okay, So extatos, we're not willing to
surrender political ground, you know, for the sake of due
process or or or continental consent, power sharing or anything else.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: And that's a very Schmidtian concept of state, you know,
and not and and that I mean and that that
that makes sense, okay for for all kinds of reasons.
But the uh, the main, the main characteristic of the
extatos and what remained its kind of the core essence
of the French or the Front the Spanish radical left
subsequent was a total rejection and moderation and an employment
of violence not just to secure not just to secure
absolute you know, majoritarian consensus, but also to enforce government
policy once they accomplished or captured that consensus, you know,
And and and a view that it was perfectly legitimate
to enforce not just enforce compliance, you know, through use
of of uh of a violent terror apparatus, but also
to crush all all resistance and the president they drew upon.
You know, when when when these kinds of more liberal
minded moderates would say, look, you know, we all want
the same things. You know, where you're you're setting us
back with these kinds of sanguinary belongings. The rebuttal was, look,
you know our president for this is seventeen eighty nine.
You know, and if you think the Jacobin's were, you know,
we're willing to come to the table with royalists and
and and engaging in horse trading. You know, you're you're
you're out of your mind or you're a liar, you know,
and within the bound rationality, they're objectives. They they didn't
a point. You can't you can't transpose, you can't transpose
parliamentarism to a body politic where there's no moral consensus.
And uh, you can't the entire theory of of progressive
as government with a capital P even that itself uh
you know as uh, it's epistemic. Priors are basically that
you know, in conditions where that consensus didn't exist before,
it has been achieved you know, as a conditioned precedent
of of a you know, of of of of of
our program. Okay, so all these things it should become
clear that kind of like a perfect storm. I mean,
I it sound corny, but a perfect consolation maybe more
properly of factors, uh, you know many uh many owing
to an escapable precedent that set Spain on a uniquely
kind of tragic course.
Speaker 1: But also you know, just after yeah, after that uh
technical difficulty.
Speaker 2: Uh, that's all good. It's uh, it's kind of nostalgic,
you know. But the But at the same time, I mean,
no matter how much you exult the you know, the
the kind of law of the blade and the barrel
of a gun over you know, that of the per
real pen and paper of you know, money and and
buying your way to to you know, policy realization, no
matter how much your enthrall the violence and coercion as
sort of the currency of of of authority, at some
point that that that sort of runs its course, you know,
and and it develops, it develops a crisis of legitimacy,
you know, and and then people get sick of it,
and this is exactly what happened, and uh the uh
the uh again once again to the exultatles were overthrown
by by the French army on uh W which which
became you know, it's it's interesting because a peculiar kind
of a peculiar kind of uh interdependence developed, like like
these multiple French military interventions. You know, this wasn't this
wasn't like the vermach like assaulting the Soviet Union or
like the Soviet Union like you know, assaulting Poland or something.
I mean, yeah, there's always like the deserts category all hostility,
like the jury in defecto when you're talking about you know,
armed men of you know, understands of alienage, you know,
crossing a sovereign frontier. But after uh, after Waterloo, it
there they just became you know like uh one of
the checks on uh on anarchy as Spain, you know
kind of when through this painful nineteenth century was uh,
you know, a tolerance of not you know, out and
out acceptance of a French interventionism, uh, you know, beyond
their their common border, when you know, things appear to
be careering towards open civil war, and I mean that
that's that's a tangent, but it is it is interesting
and it goes to show you that, uh, some of
the Westphalian paradigm, uh in condition to peace between states
is a myth like this idea that you know, borders
are rigid to the point that you know, we can't
even talk about you know, complex interdependence as having any
you know sort of sort of high high concern and
high politics. But to put this in perspective, uh, like
a dear friend of ours who came to visit me
the other week, uh he uh he kind of have
to mail me Stanley G. Paynes, p A Y N
E E. Like I guess like Max Pain for the
for the for the gamer bros on the But this
is this is a very like storied book that and
and our friend like mailed it to me, which is great.
So I read it after I got back from jail,
and it's shocked full of effects and figures and it
basically deals with uh like the book itself, it basically
deals with you know what, like the unraveling of the
Spanish Republic, you know, especially the especially the critical months
through nineteen thirty five and in nineteen thirty six for
at the point of the formal onset of hostilities.
Speaker 1: But people are going to people are going to ask
what the name of the book is.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's uh the Collapse of the Spanish Republic. Yeah,
I'm sorry by Stanley G. Payne again p A Y
n E. It's kind of thing to do with like
Marky Mark though, like in MX Pain but that's.
Speaker 1: Like I have like six books by him, so yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he he's written some great stuff. And like
I it's not I mean everybody, especially like all I
really do is is research, man, you know, like it's
not me like paying something the back about like what
a good boy I am or something. But even somebody
like me who's kind of stock in trade is uh
is academic research. There's there are certain authors that you're
you know, you're going to rely on more than others,
and there's gonna be some that just aren't really in
your personal canon. And like not only do any conceptual
prejudice or something or judgment on quality, you know, punitive
or or praising. But for whatever reason, uh pain never
it sort of entered into my personal canon. So again,
dude knows who he is who sent us this book,
and that's awesome and it's been a huge help for
one of the reasons why it's shocked full of data
that you know is not i mean not data for
data's sake, but you know, data of a material add
entering nature that helps put things into you know, kind
of high relief as regardless perspective and kind of the
sequences after from from the Napoleon occupation and or Waterloo onward.
They got the phases in in in modern Spanish politics
were you know, from eighteen to white to eighteen fourteen,
there was a there there there was a leftist regime
in power, you know, And it's that debut that'd be
worthy of an entire episode or a couple episodes, like
what the relationship was of Napoleonism to or Bonapartism to
Jacobinism and that's that, that's that's that is a Gailian
processes written all over it. But make no mistake, uh,
this this was this this this wasn't Neo Jacobin regime
at the reins during the occupation again from eighteen twenty,
eighteen twenty three, eighteen thirty five and thirty eight, eight
fifty and fifty six, sixty eighteen seventy three, nineteen seventeen,
ninety twenty three, and then of course in nineteen thirty one,
ninety thirty nine. You know, these were the these these
are the these are the phases of the or the
or the electoral cycles or constellation of cycles wherein the
radical left essentially controlled the entire national government. Okay, and
again you know, as soon as one as soon as
as soon as one faction would would lose to the other.
You know, they every every everything there, everything their outgoing
enemy had done, what was sabotaged, you know, I mean,
so it was it was just kind of like stalemate
by design and government, you know, and I mean that
that's the case of the center not being able to hold. Also,
even uh if conditions aren't such that, you know, civil
war is uh inevitable. You're you're dealing event You're you'ren't
even a state that eventually is going to become a
failed state. Okay. The uh, the right wing control of
the regime, you know, whether it was you know, whether
whether it was you know, gonna get get conventional Spanish nationalists,
you know, like Carloss you know, uh, like the just
like various right wingers you know, they're there their tenure
or the other phases of of of of government. You know,
dominance was a you know post water eighteen fourteen, eighteen twenty,
eighteen twenty three to eighteen thirty three, eighteen thirty nine,
eighteen fifty four, which is interesting because again Spading an outlier.
You know, they avoided the eighteen forty eight revolutions because
you know, the right had the country locked down eighteen fifty,
eighteen fifty six to eighteen sixty eight, eighteen seventy four,
ninety seventeen, nineteen twenty three to ninety thirty one, and
of course nineteen thirty nine to nineteen seventy five. I
take some exception to that. I don't think we can
talk about the Franco regime after about nineteen fifty four
as being rightest. I just don't. Okay, Again, it was
in another example of Spain being a remarkable outlier. But
I accept what Pain is getting at. And again that
same paradigm was re emergent. Uh. It wasn't you know,
there was it wasn't bloody and uh and and who
almost apocalyptic like as is the case with the Seals
our regime, you know, which Uh, and Sellers are the
fascinating guy. And you know, and the and the and
the the Portuguese were we're fighting alongside the Rhodesians against
the communists, you know, for for decades in Africa. You
know Ian Smith, who who is It's not like his
pros is particularly elegant or like edifying. And I'm not
saying that ahead of State should bother with that. But
if people are looking for a book that provides that
sort of inspiration and kind of pleasurable reading, that's not
the for you. But there's key insights into the mind
of Ian Smith. And Smith's talks about Salizar is a
truly great man. You know. He said, if a Salezar
could have hung on, you know, for two or three
more years, we probably could have you know, we probably
could have smashed you know, like zany U p F
and you know, and and you know and and and
the proxies of the the warsawf hect. But it's it's uh,
but again that you know, they're they're like like Franco,
wasn't Salizar And Uh, there was no carnation or revolution
or whatever. The uh. The Progressive Uprising against Salazar was
branded memory fails me at the minute. I'm still kind
of shaken off the weekend. But I don't mean I
was out like chasing skirt and like guzzling scotch or something.
I mean like I got my ass kicked this weekend
and it hurt my brain. But the uh another thing
to consider too, you know, the uh, the strong suit.
I think inarguably in every other state where you know
radicals and or Bolsheviks and or you know, ideological offshoots,
you know, whether they were you know, left wing syndical lists,
you know, uh, anarcho syndical lists, like anarchists. I mean,
even among the anarchists, there was a kind of rigid
cadre structure whereby the inner discipline of the party and
it's cadres was what carried the day and allowed them
to allow, you know, and carry them to victory. In Spain,
the Spanish left, it was even more naked, least sectarian,
personal like characterized by the faux messianic delusions of individual
like players within it. It was, you know, it was
it was pointlessly like inwardly directed and secretive, like these
guys were constantly at war with each other, you know,
far far far more than and far more fractious than
the right wing was, you know. And that's the only
state like that. And that's not me saying like I mean,
the right wing is a lot more organic, okay, and
uh and that you know, and and it's it doesn't emerge,
it didn't. It doesn't emerge from some you know, from
from a literal central committee. Okay. It's that there's there's
there's reasons of a structural and sociological and historical nature.
Like conventionally, you know, the modern uh radical left has
more internal discipline than the right. Okay. But that's why
it's so striking that in Spain like this was it
was literally the opposite, you know. And it also explains
why there were things started when the Behrmacht intervened, you know,
in von Toma's uh uh you know counter legion and
von Toma's tanks and you know these uh and and
he's been any stud like battlefield commanders, and Franco had
had a great eye for for like company level officers.
I don't know what they're equivalent of be in Spanish
dury of the day, but like like junior officers, so
you need, you know, to be like platoon leaders and
company commanders like Franco and Franco's staff, like they they
knew how to culture that kind of talent. Okay, So
by the time these pressures came to bear, like politically,
like the French left is like falling apart, you know,
and not even uh, not even you know, not even
the n k v D on the ground, not even
dudes like Eric Milk, like you know, just like whacking
people who just like you know, just cause like he
was probably an asshole anyway, and you know, he his
you know, he he wasn't doing what he had to
do to you know, sustain like internal discipline you know,
within his own chain of command and stuff. Like even
with all that like conventionally like almost comically it's not
common when they're talking about like extreme brutality, but that
kind of like you know, even even that kind of
like ridiculous level of like stalinists like you know, like
compliance through like massive brutal violence like this just still
couldn't even like phase like this function of the process
they just enumerated and towards the end two you know,
talking about Spain being ironically you know, decades and in
the case of the Spanish moundern state emergence, you know,
a century you know, ahead of the rest of the continent.
The first uh, the first the first attempt to truly
organize like a trade like a trade union that you know,
with an eye for the ability to ultimately you know,
extoric concessions to general strike that occurred as early as
the eighteen thirties, okay, like decades before the American War
between the States. You know, there's guys in Spain, you
know who we're talking like a narcocynic list and like
talking talking like Marphus Leninist. You know, that's pretty crazy
and pretty remarkable, all right, especially again we consider that,
you know, it's I'm not like trading Spain like Spain.
Spain is fucking incredible. But you know, we're not talking
about like terrorists, and we're not talking about like Berlin,
and we're not talking about like London. You know, we're
talking about Spain. In some cases, you know, like very
provincial places in Spain that you know, not only weren't
known for their their kind of cosmopolitan embrace of anxietic ideologies,
you know, and things that just kind of like tickle
the fantasy of aristocrats just you know, thought experiments that
can be played out with real people.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Uh, these guys were thinking and absolutely in like twentieth
century terms, but they were doing so a century early,
you know, and they were doing so amiss uh uh
you know a state that was that was still like
you know, almost entirely like a Greary and in terms
of U its local uh it's local economic output that
a Cyrus says in the Warriors is a miracle. But
Giuseppe Finelli, he was an early uh figure of advance
of importance within h the post Jacobin but pre Leninist
left and he arrived in Spain and in eighteen sixty
eight he'd been a great admirer of Bekunen, you know
who is Marx's uh great opponent in the first International
Just seti finelle. You were here at to Madrid without
speaking any Spanish. He basically had no money, but he said,
look and and people like he was crazy, but he said, look,
he's like the idea as he called it, you know,
because guy, you know, uh, paris of thought. You know,
we'd call it the faith even though that's what it is.
It's an Aristos faith, he said. The idea, uh he said,
he said, look, this is the most fertile, like, this
is almost fertile ground. You know, we can find for
you know, for for Marxism on the content. Okay. Uh,
there's literally no more like fertile proverbial fertile soil than
the Spanish body politic to embrace Marxism. Okay, and uh
he was right, Okay, rapidly Uh Uh, this kind of
this this abundance of sex just popped up, you know,
like and or guess libertarian, you know, anarcho, cynical lists,
you know, independent socialists, like every everything you can possibly
think of. Okay, and again that ultimately served like the
like the the inherent fractiousness and and sort of anarchic
nature of that political culture of uh the post Jacob
and left in Spain. I mean that cost him the war.
And it's not I I don't accept the kind of
Thomas Pain idea that like the more the more you
hold an endless conversation, you know, the more like marvelous
things just kind of like emerge out of motherfucker's mouths.
But uh, but my point is that there was a
there was a remarkably developed intellectual culture on the ground
as regardless politics and uh, you know, political theory unless
you're talking to like and like you're really talking about
like Straussian types or just like you know, positing like
you know, like values claims and and trying to mind
cloud from the fact that you know, they call themselves
philosophers or something like if you're talking about if you're
talking about polable theory, you're talking about you know, you're
you're talking about it imagining the architecture of the state
as an instrumentality of what you want to accomplish, and
you're imagining, you know, how that can be structured in
order to accomplish those objectives. Okay, so it is essential
to any revolutionary enterprise. Okay, yeah, there can be too
many theorists and too few uh you know, partisans. But
the the converse is just as self defeating. Okay, I'm
sure there's those who are gonna say, that's like my
egghead prejudice. It's not. It's not, I don't it's but
it's inarguable. Okay, it's not. It's not something that it's
not something that political theory geeks just insisted upon, is
as a code or whatever. But the what did prevail
initially in terms of the dominant strain. Now bear in
mind epistemic priors that informed that everyone in the radical
left were one hundred percent Marxist in nature. But the
practical tendency, ideological tendency that became, you know, most dominant,
very rapidly. Wash we're things of an anarchist nature, okay.
And in the early days it was the largest force
within the urban working class of Spain. Small that as
it was, but again it was it was the it
was supposed to act as the vanguard. Okay, it wasn't
you know, a question of taking a head count. And
there's a lot of reasons why anarchism appealed so much
to this population, you know, a lot of which we
just got into. But also something that the left in
Spain realized very early on, was there, like, look, okay,
the structure of this state entails things, you know, like
the Roman church, you know, and uh entails things you
know like uh like chartered like chartered companies you know,
that are bound up with the private fortunes of aristocrats.
You know. The very architecture for the state is like
teams with teams with the hostility to our objectives. So
we've got to create parallel institutions. Okay, So we're gonna
have you know, like the workers Relieve organization. You know,
We're not We're not. We're not gonna go to you know,
like the monastic order is to like help out widows
of like the men of ours who die. Okay, Like
you know, we're not We're not. We're not gonna We're not.
We're not gonna try and capture or you know, the
like the local constables office and in Catalonia or whatever.
You know, like we're gonna we're gonna maintain our own
countrey discipline. You know. We're also gonna like handle our
own like justice. You know, we're never gonna rely upon
you know, the state or any of it's some affiliated
institutions and bureaucracies, you know, to guarantee as a justice
or anything else. And we started as we started death.
But that's the way it's going to be. And that
is something enduring too that basically everybody imitated, even even
even even the fastest and the National Socialist to some
degree imitated that, okay, because it's just in ah, in
a political warfare situation, especially during a long struggle, like
you you just have to do that, okay. And also
then you know you have you have new institutions and
being that you know, have never had sort of the
sovereign authority of the state behind them, but they have.
They have acted in authoritative capacities on mayors of life
and death. And in some cases their existence is going
back decades. And you know, they had existed as you know,
floating like sovereigns and to themselves, you know, in the
fact that they commanded you know, they commanded controlled you know,
tens of thousands of men under arms. You know, they
had operational areas that constituted like you know, territory they
literally held. You know, at some point people are talking
symantics when they're like, oh, that's not really a government,
So what are you talking about? Why, you know what,
why would you even care about you know, why would
you gonna go to that trouble trying to replace the
you know, pre pre existing institutions of of of state.
Well that's that's why this shouldn't be it shouldn't be mysterious.
And finally, uh or I mean not related. It wasn't
just that the church, uh and in Spain we can
talk about the church because I mean Spain, the Spanish
are a Catholic people, you know it UH, the UH
that the Spanish left view they view they viewed the
Church and they viewed UH. Despite the fact that I
mean that there's a delicious irony to fern in Isabella,
you know, basically removing the mandate of UH of the
Holy See to render a judgment on power political questions
of war in peace. Well, at the same time you know,
enforcing UH, you know, the moral law according to the
understanding of of UH the papacy in a way sight
and seen probably for five hundred years. And there's also
there's also a UH. There's also a real irony in guys,
you know, like waving a red banner as they charging
a combat, you know, demanding you know, social justice basically
you know, a side of the Marxist gobbly Gook. They're
basically saying, like, we're Catholic people, you know who need
you know, who need a Catholic Church to sort of
act as their mediary between us and there would be
class oppressors or aggressors, you know, Yet we reject the
Kaolic Church and want to destroy it. But again, the
internal logic of it of the enterprise. That's what they
would have had to do, Okay, and that's one of
the reasons people recognize us on some level, even people
who aren't, you know, ultra sophisticated. Now that I'm so sophisticated,
but I mean, we spend all day like reading about
this stuff. But you know, the uh, it's it should
uh it should become clear, you know, at least in
part why some of these so these peculiarities became you know,
not just sort of you know, quirkly identified with the
Spanish modern state, but somehow inextricably bound off with like
it's it's it's it's essence, you know. And that's and
that's about all I got for today. Man. Again, I'm
still kind of recovering from my from my my vacation
the Cook County at the Cook County Resort and hotel.
But I thought it was important to cover because we're
gonna come back to a lot of these aspects and
I didn't want it to be I didn't want them
to be issues the first impression, you know, as they
kind of re emerged. But I promise when we recorded next,
we'll we'll get into you know, general Franco arriving back
from Morocco and you know kind of how battle resolved.
I mean, uh, you know, between the Nationalist element and
UH counter Legion and the Hermacht and and Thomas tanks,
you know, and the UH and and the Reds and
and Republicans all in Sundry. Does that sound good?
Speaker 1: Sounds great? Plug away?
Speaker 2: What? Yes, sir, I'm still playing catch up, but I'm
as I've disclosed the people, you know, the last few weeks,
me and my my crime partner Rake where we are.
We're trying at a feverish pace to get season two
of the podcast up and running, and I promise it
will be in the next few weeks, you know. In
the meantime, I'm gonna be uploading a lot of free stuff,
you know, to the sub stack, Like today, I I
just upload an interview with uh a friend of mine, like,
you know, an older dude who uh who knew Jeff
Fort and he banged with the l Ruken here in Chicago.
I'm gonna be I gonna when I you know, I'm
gonna be dropping a lot of that kind of stuff
until we kind of formally relaunched the brand. I've been
doing I've been recording a lot with Nico Kloud, who's
a fascinating guy, an artist, and every controversial figure that's
gonna he's gonna feature heavily in season two. But you
can find the substick in the pod at Real Thomas
seven seven seven, that substick dot com. Uh. You can
find me on Twitter, but my tweets are protected. People
tell me Twitter is not censoring as aggressively as before,
but I've literally hit my accounts new so many times
for you know, and number once if I.
Speaker 1: I got suspended for twelve hours yesterday and they didn't
even tell me why.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean if there's just like crazy
bullshit even when the commissars aren't you know, like busily
like and excited, I mean, it's like it's like it's
like born to them or something to just like censor people,
I think, because they're fucking freaks. But uh, point being like,
I do protect my tweets because I seems to be
the only way to like not be fucking nuke them,
you know, just arbitrar early. But you can find you
can always find me on my website. It's just Thomas
seven seven seven dot com number seven eight twenty seven
seven seven dot com. That's where all my like fresh
stuff like appears. It's still like somewhat under construction, but
you can that will always be around. Okay. And as uh,
people keep asking about the channel content that is coming
to I haven't figured out exactly how I want to
integrate it with the pod. I want some I don't
want to just be like a mirror of the pod.
But with video, I mean, if people want sign some
people like that and they just like listening to stuff,
I'm like to see your YouTube, I'll do that. But
I do want some original video content. I didn't want
primarily that the channel to be that like one thing
at a time, and I'm uh, I want to I'm yeah,
And it's but that that's that's basically where we're at. Okay,
and just keep uh, just keep your eyes peeled for
like fresh stuff because I'm gonna be uploading I'm gonna
be uploading a ton of like just free stuff like
at it today every several days. And when when the
season two of the pod launches, all season one content
is going to become free immediately, and it it will
be dope like and when I say like rebranding, like
we've got the resources and and kind of the knowledge
as well as you know, sort of like the you know,
a higher profile in terms of the people who are
willing to work with us, you know, like like Nego Cloud,
like yourself. I'm not seeing you guys are like similar
people and understand okay, okay, but and uh and and
people like you know my friend Big d you know
who drove his system when you're honest about the old Ruken.
But uh, like we're popping quite splendidly and that that
that's you know, I'm allowing for other potentialities. So yeah,
I won't I won't hold up the recording anymore. Man.
That's that's all I got. Thank you so much, And
thank you again for like the trans love and concern
for me when you know I went dark on account
of being arrested. Like I really mean that. I got
huge love for all of our friends, a.
Speaker 1: Man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you,