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Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome to the Kylie Cast. I'm Kylie Griswold,

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Managing editor at The Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever

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you get your podcasts. We have a brand new channel

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specifically for the Kylie Cast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

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So if you are only subscribed to The Federalist Radio Hour,

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or you're wrong with Molly Hemingway and David Harsani, two

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of our other great Federalist podcasts, you should also like

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and subscribe, leave a review on the Kylie Cast so

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you never miss an episode and that would really help

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us out. And even better yet, if you're just listening

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to the show, you should go check out the full

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video version on my personal YouTube channel or the Federalists

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channel on Rumble, and then of course like and subscribe

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there too. If you'd like to email the show, you

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can do so at radio at the Federalist dot com.

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I would love to hear from you today. I am

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delighted to welcome to the Kylie Cast. Claire Morrell. Claire

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is a Christian wife and mother of three. She is

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a fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center and

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she is the author of the book The Tech Exit,

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which is a practical guide for freeing your family, your life,

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and specifically your children, your household from smartphones. It's a

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really hope filled book. It's a really practical book. Everybody

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should read it. But today I'm so excited to chat

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with Claire about it. Please welcome to the show, Claire Morrell. Claire,

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thank you so much for joining me today on the

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Kylie Cast. It is so great to have you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a pleasure. Can you just start us

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off by giving listeners a little bit of a background

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for people who don't know you. Tell us who you are,

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where you are, how you got to your current job,

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and specifically how you got into the tech space.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: So i live here in Washington, d C. On Capitol

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Hill with my husband and earth three young kids. So

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I'm married to a pastor. We have three small children

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who are five and under. So that's kind of my

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full time capacity as I'm a mom to those young children,

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and my professional work. For the last several years, like

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the last four and a half years in particular, I've

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been at a think tank called the Ethics and Public

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Policy Center. I'm a fellow there. Focused on technology and

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human flourishing, but specifically how do we protect our kids

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and raise this next generation to flourish in an increasingly

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digital world and digital culture. So I've been very involved

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in trying to help pass policy solutions to protect kids

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from the harms of smartphones, social media, and online pornography.

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And my kind of foray into the technology space was

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I was working in the last Trump administration and I

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ended my time at the Department of Justice working in

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the Attorney General's office, and we were very focused on

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the kind of threats and challenges from these big tech companies,

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both related to censorship but also increasingly their role in

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facilitating crimes against children, like human trafficking, child sexual exploitation

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on their platforms. And so that was kind of my

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real exposure and deep Die was into that. It was

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at that time, and then when I left the administration,

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when ended, I pivoted to this kind of policy research

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role that I'm in now, and I've just gotten more

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deep into the weeds on these threats to our kids

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online and specifically work on what policy makers can do

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at the state and federal level to support parents in

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protecting their kids. And then I also just wrote a

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book this past year called The Tech Exit, A Practical

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Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens from Smartphones, came out

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in June, and that book is actually primarily geared towards

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parents because in my professional work.

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Speaker 2: I kept getting asked, Okay, but what do I do

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as a parent?

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Speaker 3: How do I keep my kids off of the phones?

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And so I wanted to put out a very practical

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resource for parents, and so my work really is meant

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to both support policy makers but also parents who were

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on the front lines trying to protect our children in

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this very digital age.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I definitely want to dive into a lot

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of the specifics of your book. I will say every

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time I read your work, whether it's an article we

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published at The Federalist or something that's published at EPPC,

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or parts of your book, I always try to tuck

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it away because you give such good, useful tools and

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I'm not a parent yet, but I just want to

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have you know this toolbox full, so that when I am,

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I know all of this research that you've dived so

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deeply into. So let's talk about your book. Can you

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just lay out the premise of your book, which I

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would have expected a book like that to be fairly fatalistic.

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I mean, it's such a difficult topic and it's something

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that's such a problem with I mean, there are screens

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are just absolutely ubiquitous. You can't go anywhere without seeing

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a toddler holding a smartphone. And your book is so hopeful.

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So can you just kind of explain why your book

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is hopeful and just kind of lay out the premise

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of your book?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I love talking about this.

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Speaker 3: So the premise of my book was based on all

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my research through the past five years on all these

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kind of harms to kids online, was that a smartphone

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free childhood was really necessary to protect our kids, a

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smartphone social media free childhood. But parents would frequently push

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back when I was giving that advice, to say, well,

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that's just so difficult, Like every single kid in my

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kids class has a smartphone already, and so they were

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desperate for practical resources. So I kind of started servying

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all these parenting tech books and I could really find

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none both making the case for why a smartphone free

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childhood was necessary, but.

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Speaker 2: More importantly practically how to do it.

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Speaker 3: And so I decided to write that book, which set

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me off on this path of really interviewing dozens of

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families who have successfully done this, who have navigated the

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teen years, launched kids to college, raising them free of

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smartphones and social media, because I wanted to prove to

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myself that it was possible, so I could offer that

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hope to readers. And so that is really the book

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is the culmination of the practices and principles that I

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found all these families had in common that I wanted

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to break down in a very concrete way for readers

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who are struggling. I wanted to reach parents right where

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they're at, like if they're in the midst of screen

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time battles with their kids, how to go through a

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detox and then how to sustain that lifestyle over the

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long term. So the message of the book is it's

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never too late to reverse course, and that not only

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is a smartphone for you childhood necessary for your kids,

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but it is possible and it's the best possible gift

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you could give your kids. Because all the families I

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spoke to, their children are just flourishing, They're thriving. They

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do not resent their parents. Like there's a lot of

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common fears and myths and kind of misperceptions that raising

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your kids three of smartphones is going to somehow you know,

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kind of turn them into luddites, or they're going to

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react and binge and go crazy. In college, and I

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basically found all that was not true. But yeah, I

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wanted to offer this message of hope to other parents

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in a very like practical, step by step guide that

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the average mom who's very busy and short on time

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can pick up quickly, digest and kind of grab onto.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well, and I think that that one part

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is such a key point about that it's never too

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late to make these changes. That you know, if your

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kid has had a smartphone for a little while, or

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if you let the toddlers watch, you know, have too

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much screen time or something, that it's impossible to take

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the screen away. And so it's super cool to have

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that encouragement of just like, nope, there are actionable steps

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you can take, and here's what they are. So can

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you explain because I do, I do see and hear

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this a lot about why screen time limits and parental

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controls don't actually work, Why that's not actually a fix

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for our screen problem.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And that's exactly where I start the book because

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I think unfortunately that's kind of like the main strategy

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that our culture has been employing, and that they have

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been sold honestly by the tech companies saying, oh, just

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put screen time limits prontal controls in place, and you

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can mitigate any of the harms but still allow your

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children to use our wonderful products. But the research just

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convinced me increasingly that screen time limits are no match

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for in addictive product design. That when this product is

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inherently addictive in any amount, even a small or short

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amount of time, it produces this compulsive effect on a

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child's brain, where as soon as they log off, they

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feel this constant craving to go back on, like the

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time limit is literally never enough. And it is a

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biological response because all the features of smartphones and social

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media release this dopamine neurotransmitter in the brain that produces

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this little burst of pleasure. But dopamine doesn't produce lasting

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satisfaction or fulfillment. It just produces a craving to do

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that behavior again. And so even if they're only on

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for fifteen minutes, they're getting these constant dopamine hits every

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time they see a new video.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's.

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Speaker 3: Infinite scroll the next video plays. They're just getting constant

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dopamine hits. But then as soon as they log off,

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their brain actually plunges into this dopamine deficit state. It

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doesn't return to baseline, and so they have a constant craving.

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It creates ative like response even because even in a

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short amount of time, and cumulatively then if there's there's

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at fifteen twenty minutes a day, over time, their brain

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actually becomes desensitized to pleasures in the real world. So

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going for a bike ride or taking a walk with

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a family member doesn't actually produce the same pleasure that

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it used to. Their brain is now habituated to this

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artificially high level of dopamine. And so those kind of

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reading all this brain science research and realizing because it's

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an inherently addictive product.

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Speaker 2: The screen time limits just don't work.

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Speaker 3: And I think health sometimes analogies are helpful, Like cigarettes

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are inherently addictive, and so parents are not saying, Okay,

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you can just have one cigarette a day. We know

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that they are addictive, and so it's really we have

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to have. So I try to explain in the book,

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we've treated screens more like sugar something you can enjoy

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in moderation, when the effect on the brain is really

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more like digital sentanel, like a highly addictive drug that's

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just not safe in any amount for a developing brain.

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And quickly on the printal control side, I mean they're

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just printal controls are a myth. I mean the companies

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are not trying to give parents real control although what

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their kids are seeing or doing. So the best the

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controls can kind of offer a parent is to set

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certain privacy restrictions or to put certain time limits on.

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But they have no insights into what isn't a child's feed,

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what they're scrolling through, what direct messages they're getting, and

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so they're really flying blind when it comes to kids'

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social media experience or just other apps in the app store.

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It's just it's impossible to effectively lock down a smartphone,

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is basically the message I want parents to understand, because

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there are just hundreds thousands of apps.

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Speaker 2: Each app has its.

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Speaker 3: Own portal to the Internet, and it's so difficult for

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a parent to keep up with that and try to

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effectively shut down all those loopholes, and so at the

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end of the day, really it's the tech companies and

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their algorithms that are controlling a child's online experience. They

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don't want parents to be in the driver's seat, and

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so none of these controls really actually effectively work.

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Speaker 1: Right, Can you explain a little bit more of your

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comment that you made about the portal to the Internet

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and how exactly that works for parents who might not understand,

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because you know, what would you say to a parent

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who says, well, I know these four apps that are

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on my kid's device, and you know, even if they

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know every single Facebook friend or every single Snapchat friend,

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how does this portal to the internet work? How my

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parents not understand what their kids are actually consuming even

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when they're on parent approved apps.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so the problem is every app has its own

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in app browser, which is essentially like another separate web

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browser that they can use to access the Internet, and

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filters and like third party parntal controls do not work

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well inside of apps or in in app browsers. And

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so when a child like the parents like, oh, I

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can tell that they're only in Snapchat, but the parents

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can't actually see into what they're doing inside a Snapchat,

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and that child could actually be getting to porn Hub.

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A very graphic pornography website inside a snapchat and five clicks,

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they're never actually leaving the app. The external filter can't

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block it because it's inside this in app browser, and

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the parent has no idea they because they're like, oh, well,

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I have a porn filter setup on the web browser,

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but it doesn't work on these in app browsers. And

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so that's what I mean is that you could control

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it hypothetically and say they only have these certain apps,

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but if every app has its own portal to the Internet,

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that's very difficult to lock down. They can still access

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pretty much anything. And so I've heard so many parents say, well,

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we're going to give them a smartphone, but they're not

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going to have social media on it. Any child safety

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expert will just tell you that's impossible or just isn't true,

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because even if you block Instagram the app, they could

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use any of the other apps that they have access

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to to get to Instagram dot Com in like one

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of these in app browsers and go behind your back

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and make a secret account. It's just it's so so difficult.

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So I just try to explain to parents you just

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can't trust a smartphone. It is not effectively set up

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for parents to really lock it down because of the

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app system in all these in app browsers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense, and that's so alarming, like when

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you use the Snapchat pornhub example, because it's not I mean,

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that's a very real, very real possibility and a real problem.

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I want to rewind a little bit to the dopamine

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thing that you said, yeah, because if I'm not mistaken,

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not only are kids getting dopamine hits from this stuff,

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but they're also lacking other chemical receptors like that they're

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not getting other things that you would get from normal

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human interaction. I don't remember if you talk about this

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in your book, but can you just explain a little

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bit about that deficit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So the problem is I think a lot of times

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parents feel like, oh, well, I have to give them

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this phone because they need to have friends and they

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need to be connected, and this is how all the

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kids are talking, and so I want them to be,

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you know, on these apps, to be socially connected. But

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it is like a complete oxymoron because what happens is

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these kids are online and they're getting all these dopamine hits,

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but they are lonelier and more isolated.

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Speaker 2: Than ever.

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Speaker 3: And part of that is they are not getting oxytocin

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through the screen. So oxytos is another kind of neurotransmitter,

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chemical hormone that helps us to bond with other humans,

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and it's released through eye contact and physical touch, and

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so it actually it's what creates these deeper bonds of

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friendship and trust. It bonds parent, child, husband and wife,

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and it bonds friends. And so when kids are in

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this online world, they're in this oxytocin desert. They have

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all these shallow connections which are very superficial based on

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their likes or their followers, but they're not actually building

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real deep friendships because they're not interacting in person. And

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what that means is these kids actually feel really lonely.

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So even though they're online all the time, they feel

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lonely because they don't have any deep, real friendships. And so, yes,

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so it's both that they're getting way too much dopamine

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in the online world, but then they're also not getting

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really critical things that we need that only come from

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real life human interaction.

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Speaker 1: And critical things that you need that you would get

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if you would put down the phone, like building a

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fort with a sibling or going on a walk with

305
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a pair or whatever it might be, because that's actually

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easy to get, but not if you're you're glued to

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your device. So exactly, let's talk a little bit about

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small screens versus big screens, how smartphones affect you versus

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how television affects you, for instance, and kind of how

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those are different, how they're the same, and what you

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recommend for kids with both kinds of devices.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I try to distinguish in the book between

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these screens because I often get asked, oh my goodness,

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your book says the tech exit, like does that.

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Speaker 2: Mean no TVs?

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Speaker 3: And I'm like very clear in the book that this

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is like no addictive interactive screens, which are namely smartphones, tablets,

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video games, social media apps. But there are actually intentional

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ways a family can use a television or even allow

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children to use a family home computer to actually build

321
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real tech skills, or for like the family to enjoy

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some type of entertainment together on a television. So all

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screens are not created equal. And I'm really taking issue

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in the book with these addictive, extremely interactive and by

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that I mean when you are on the screen, it

326
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is giving you this instant feedback, and that is really

327
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where a lot of these dopamine hits come from. Is

328
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you're interacting with the screen. You're scrolling, you're pushing play

329
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on a new video, you are engaging, you're sending messages,

330
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you're getting messages, whereas a television you're just you're passively

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a consumer of content. You're taking in content. And so

332
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I try to explain in the book that these tech

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exit families they had an intentional use of television and computers,

334
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,039
and then they had no use of these interactive, addictive screens.

335
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So no smartphones, no tablets, no video games, but they

336
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would enjoy like a family movie night on a Friday,

337
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or a sporting event as a family on a Saturday.

338
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And I always just say, like the bigger the screen,

339
00:16:46,639 --> 00:16:49,799
the better because it creates a shared experience. And so

340
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just like you're talking about that oxytostin, like we might

341
00:16:52,279 --> 00:16:53,960
be watching a movie together and we're sitting on the

342
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,279
couch and we're like, you know, snuggling as family members,

343
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or we're talking about it, Oh my goodness, like what

344
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just happened to the movie. So there's enngagement and interaction,

345
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whereas a lot of these individual screens just isolate family

346
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,920
members from each other, and they don't create that kind

347
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,640
of connection. So yeah, so passive versus interactive screens are

348
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,160
very different. And then computers can genuinely be used as

349
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,680
tools that kids can learn to code and develop all.

350
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Speaker 2: Sorts of tech skills.

351
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Speaker 3: And so I explain how families really try to allow

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00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,920
their children to develop true computer and tech skills on

353
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a family home computer where they could easily see. You know,

354
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it's a big enough screen, the parents can walk by,

355
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they can see what's going on. There's that in person accountability,

356
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not just reliance on software. And they are going on

357
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that computer for a very intentional purpose. It's not to

358
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surf the internet.

359
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Speaker 2: It's not to just watch YouTube videos.

360
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Speaker 3: It's to complete this homework assignment or this research project,

361
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or I'm going to practice my computer science coding skills.

362
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So I just I always try to debunk the myth

363
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that like kids need smartphones to be prepared for this

364
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digital age, that they need these tech skills when smartphone

365
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,759
just teaches kids how to scroll and swipe between apps.

366
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,079
And this one boy, who is a tech exit kid

367
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,319
basically grew up no smartphone, no social media, no video games,

368
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but he practiced his computer science skills on his family's

369
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,440
computer every day and won a coding scholarship, so he

370
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,200
has like a long ride to college in computer science.

371
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And he never had a smartphone. So I just think, yeah, yeah,

372
00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:22,559
things are not the same.

373
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Speaker 1: That kid is just the embodiment of the myth busting. Yeah,

374
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,519
that's that's amazing. Yeah, I mean, it's really quite alarming

375
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,720
to see. I was at a coffee shop recently and

376
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,200
this woman came in with her toddler could not have

377
00:18:35,279 --> 00:18:37,799
been older than two, I mean, maybe wasn't even two,

378
00:18:38,279 --> 00:18:40,119
and she was meeting a friend for coffee, and she

379
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:41,960
got up to get coffee and the toddler just sat

380
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,599
in the booth, and I was shocked. This kid was

381
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,920
navigating her mom's smartphone better than I can navigate my smartphone,

382
00:18:49,519 --> 00:18:51,640
as somebody who works from it and you know, uses

383
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,160
it daily. And it was just it's shocking to watch

384
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,920
kids tech literacy. But it's not even really tech literacy.

385
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,720
It's just this interaction with with just a virtual world,

386
00:18:59,759 --> 00:19:03,759
and it's so alarming. And I imagine that, you know,

387
00:19:03,839 --> 00:19:07,039
even the passive interaction with a television where you're not

388
00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:09,799
actually engaging with it, you're just consuming content that there's

389
00:19:09,839 --> 00:19:12,880
also such a disparity between types of programming, right, Like

390
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,960
I always think of mister Rogers Neighborhood and how you know,

391
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,279
how intentionally slow that show is versus a lot of

392
00:19:20,279 --> 00:19:22,319
the programs that kids watch today, where I mean, mister

393
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,359
Rogers would just turn on, you know, an egg timer

394
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:25,759
for a minute and be like this is how long

395
00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:27,160
a minute is, and you just sit there look at

396
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,079
the screen for a minute and nothing happens because it's

397
00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,279
just teaching you how long this unit of time is,

398
00:19:31,319 --> 00:19:34,079
whereas these other shows are just constant. I mean, it's

399
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,920
there's no educational value whatsoever. It's just it's, I don't know,

400
00:19:38,079 --> 00:19:38,960
just flash lights.

401
00:19:39,519 --> 00:19:39,599
Speaker 4: No.

402
00:19:39,759 --> 00:19:42,839
Speaker 3: Parents need to be very discerning because I say that too,

403
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,319
like all screen content is not created equal, and especially

404
00:19:46,319 --> 00:19:49,039
some of these newer kids programs, there is a lot

405
00:19:49,039 --> 00:19:51,519
of that dopamine effect. There was like a New York

406
00:19:51,559 --> 00:19:54,799
Times article on Cocoa Melon this like it's just a

407
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,920
nursery rhyme show with like songs and nursery rhymes with

408
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,559
these kind of cartoon characters. But they were trying to

409
00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:02,880
make it as addictive as possible because they would have

410
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,440
test kids watch cocomelon and then next to it have

411
00:20:06,519 --> 00:20:09,200
a screen of like real life scenarios like a mom

412
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,799
cooking dinner, a dad washing dishes. And anytime the child

413
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,119
gazed away from cocomelon to the what they called the

414
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,319
real life a tron, they would mark down where in

415
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,960
the episode that was and go back and add more

416
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,480
flashing lights, more colors, like louder sounds to draw the

417
00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:28,640
child back in. So there is I think we have

418
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,200
to be discerning, especially with some of these smart TVs

419
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,039
and these streaming services, there are these like social media

420
00:20:34,079 --> 00:20:36,079
elements to it where they're trying to make it addictive.

421
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,480
They have the kind of auto play feature turned on

422
00:20:38,599 --> 00:20:41,519
so that you're just tempted to keep watching the next episode.

423
00:20:42,079 --> 00:20:43,920
And I will say, and in my book, I'm very

424
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,400
clear that these tech exit families really tried to not

425
00:20:46,519 --> 00:20:50,119
make even TV a daily habit. They wanted their kids

426
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,519
to be doing creative things, playing outside, doing arts, crafts,

427
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:59,640
music like real life skills, and engagement in interaction with others,

428
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,480
and the TV was more of a like a sick

429
00:21:02,599 --> 00:21:06,519
day or like a family movie night on Friday, Like

430
00:21:06,559 --> 00:21:09,079
it was the exception, not the rule.

431
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 1: Yes, well, and I think it used to be more

432
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,119
so that you know, the even streaming programs, you know,

433
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,160
it's there were so much of are you still watching?

434
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,200
Like you really had to commit were you going to

435
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,480
continue watching something? Versus the infinite scroll of a of

436
00:21:23,519 --> 00:21:26,039
a smartphone or something. And I mean back in the day,

437
00:21:26,079 --> 00:21:29,519
like to watch something when I was a child, like

438
00:21:29,599 --> 00:21:31,279
between things you were going to watch, you had to

439
00:21:31,279 --> 00:21:33,200
be kind rewind and then like move on to the

440
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,480
next thing. You know, there was no there was no

441
00:21:35,519 --> 00:21:36,640
AutoPlay feature like.

442
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 3: Everything natural end points, yes, and that is that very

443
00:21:40,599 --> 00:21:43,079
less and less. Yeah, No, they don't want you to.

444
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,920
They wanted to be a frictionless experience. They don't want

445
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:47,920
there to be natural cut off or end points where

446
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,519
you would then naturally say, okay, I've been watching the TV.

447
00:21:50,599 --> 00:21:52,799
Now I'm going to go do something else that program ended.

448
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,000
It just generates this kind of infinite feed of content

449
00:21:56,319 --> 00:21:59,160
and an infiniteness of options. It's not even just watching

450
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,279
like the PBS station, which just has these like you know,

451
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,680
specific programs you could watch. Now, you know, Netflix offers

452
00:22:06,039 --> 00:22:09,359
a child potentially the world of content like it has

453
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,839
just an infinite amount. And so I think that is

454
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,920
important that we realize that as parents there is a difference.

455
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 1: Let's talk screens in schools a little bit, because I

456
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,920
I mean, it seems to me that it's kind of

457
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,799
a circular problem that like the ubiquity of devices sort

458
00:22:25,799 --> 00:22:29,960
of fueled needing devices in schools because while everybody's already

459
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,079
using devices anyway, and that using devices in schools then

460
00:22:33,079 --> 00:22:35,559
makes it more difficult to not be on your devices

461
00:22:35,559 --> 00:22:38,359
when you're not in school. How do you think these

462
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,240
problems have caused each other or or yeah, what what

463
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:42,720
do you think was the cause and effect here? And

464
00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:45,039
also what do we do about screens and schools?

465
00:22:45,519 --> 00:22:45,759
Speaker 2: Yeah?

466
00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:48,079
Speaker 3: I think that the tech companies, you know, as their

467
00:22:48,079 --> 00:22:52,559
products were coming to market, they saw this opportunity to say,

468
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,599
if we tell schools and educators that in order for

469
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,240
kids to be prepared for this now digital age, it's

470
00:22:58,279 --> 00:23:01,359
digital future. Now we all have these computers, we all

471
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,400
have laptops, we all have cell phones, smartphones, then we

472
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,880
will be able to kind of have this new profit

473
00:23:08,079 --> 00:23:11,480
market where and especially with schools, it's like they're if

474
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,200
they get these screens, then they're going to have to

475
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,359
be constantly replacing refurbishing them, Like this is like a

476
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,640
new product market for them, and they also recognized if

477
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,240
kids get used to using a Google Chromebook and they

478
00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:24,960
just get used to the interface of a Google product,

479
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,240
they're going to be more likeli as an adult to

480
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,599
purchase Google products like this is the kids in school

481
00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:32,880
are sadly very much a market for the tech companies.

482
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,119
And so it was back in like the two thousand

483
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,400
and eight, two thousand and nine, twenty ten ed tech

484
00:23:37,559 --> 00:23:40,440
kind of became its own market where these tech companies

485
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,519
started pivoting to like, we need to push these kind

486
00:23:42,559 --> 00:23:46,759
of tablets, chromebooks, laptops into schools, and they sold this

487
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,880
myth of like one to one laptop chat, like one

488
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:51,920
laptop per child was going to solve all of our

489
00:23:52,039 --> 00:23:55,519
educational inequalities that actually the reason some kids were low

490
00:23:55,559 --> 00:23:57,839
performers is just that they didn't have that access to

491
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,480
technology at home, and therefore the school should give it

492
00:24:00,519 --> 00:24:03,839
to them. These internet connected devices. Well, the data has

493
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,319
shown it has just been the complete opposite, because starting

494
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,960
in twenty twelve, we have seen scores academic scores in

495
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,480
the United States for math, reading, and science decline, and

496
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,680
in twenty twenty two they reach their lowest level since

497
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,799
the nineteen seventies. Normally, literacy goes up every year, and

498
00:24:21,839 --> 00:24:24,880
then twenty twelve came and it started going down. And

499
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,039
we're like, a very developed, advanced country, like this should

500
00:24:28,039 --> 00:24:30,400
not be happening. And a lot of it can be

501
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,799
traced back to increasingly neuroscience studies are being done about

502
00:24:34,839 --> 00:24:38,519
just measuring how kids read and how their brains perform

503
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,240
reading a text on paper versus a screen, and it

504
00:24:42,279 --> 00:24:46,240
turns out kids do not comprehend the text they've read

505
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,960
as deeply if it's on a screen then on paper,

506
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,920
and they develop stronger reading circuits when they're reading books

507
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,599
on paper instead of on a screen. And it's because

508
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,720
something about the screen actually encourages the brain to kind

509
00:24:59,759 --> 00:25:03,480
of gim and did not read this deeply or comprehend

510
00:25:03,559 --> 00:25:08,279
us fully. And so unfortunately the medium becoming this constant

511
00:25:08,319 --> 00:25:12,559
screen based learning where now all their like instruction, homework,

512
00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:16,079
everything's happening through the screen, I think is really behind

513
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,240
a lot of these declines in the educational outcomes. And

514
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,039
so I'm just I'm hoping that the US will recognize

515
00:25:24,039 --> 00:25:27,960
this and kind of change direction. Because other developed countries,

516
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,680
like the country of Sweden very developed, they were one

517
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,359
of the first to kind of buy into the ed

518
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,480
tech revolution, they went like totally textbook free all screens

519
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,039
in two thousand and nine, while just this past year

520
00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:43,960
they reversed course and invested like a million dollars into

521
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,079
making sure every Swedish student has a paper textbook in

522
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,480
every subject, and they're pulling back the screens, and so

523
00:25:50,559 --> 00:25:53,799
I think it's not too late to reverse course. And

524
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,880
I'm afraid like AI and the kind of push to

525
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,200
integrate AI tutors into education is going to only make

526
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,599
these problems worse because now instead of even skimming something

527
00:26:03,599 --> 00:26:05,559
on a screen, the AI is just going to say, oh,

528
00:26:05,599 --> 00:26:07,359
you don't need to read that, I can summarize it

529
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:07,680
for you.

530
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 2: Like it's just gonna.

531
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 3: Quick cut out all the skill development, like no critical

532
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,240
thinking problem solving.

533
00:26:13,559 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: The AI is just going to do it for you.

534
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 3: So I really hope that we kind of wake up

535
00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:19,680
to the fact that the ed tech revolution has not

536
00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:23,440
delivered before the AI revolution is kind of fully grafted

537
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,400
onto it. And my last point on screens and schools

538
00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:29,440
is the positive development is all these schools are going

539
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,839
smartphone free. They're banning cell phones from bell to bell,

540
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,000
and it's having amazing effects. In fact, like it's improving

541
00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:39,240
academic outcomes, and so I think it just kind of

542
00:26:39,279 --> 00:26:42,519
shows like these screens, even the learning screens are very

543
00:26:42,559 --> 00:26:46,079
distracting to kids. A lot of kids are actually accessing pornography,

544
00:26:46,559 --> 00:26:49,599
video games, other websites during the school day and distracting

545
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:50,599
other students.

546
00:26:50,319 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 2: By doing that.

547
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,079
Speaker 3: But then also the medium of learning is not as effective.

548
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,559
But getting the phones out of the schools is having

549
00:26:56,559 --> 00:26:58,240
these tremendous benefits, and.

550
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 2: So I think we just we need to say that

551
00:27:00,799 --> 00:27:01,799
is such a huge win.

552
00:27:02,599 --> 00:27:05,599
Speaker 3: But it's not just the phones, it's also these educational

553
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,599
screens that we also need to get out of the

554
00:27:07,599 --> 00:27:11,200
classrooms in order to allow students to be undistracted and

555
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,559
to learn the way their brains are best designed to learn.

556
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely well, And I'm sure the covid era also

557
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,960
just took what was already on a really bad course

558
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,279
and made it exponentially worse by taking the ed tech

559
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,000
and then just instead of screens being used as a

560
00:27:28,039 --> 00:27:31,599
tool in the classroom, now we take the living, breathing

561
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,200
teacher completely out of the equation and everything is virtual.

562
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,440
You're not even looking your teacher in the eye, which

563
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,359
is just I'm sure was devastating in ways it's hard

564
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:41,000
to even measure.

565
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,559
Speaker 3: No, you're right, COVID accelerated a lot of this. And

566
00:27:43,599 --> 00:27:46,119
I've heard personally from parents that their school had actually

567
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,559
kind of resisted some of the ED screens and then

568
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,559
COVID came and they were kind of like, oh, the

569
00:27:50,559 --> 00:27:52,480
school has to do this. And then she said the

570
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,640
problem was after COVID, they just never reversed course. These

571
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,039
screens then became entrenched, all the teachers had gotten used

572
00:27:59,079 --> 00:28:02,240
to them, It just became the method of learning. And

573
00:28:02,279 --> 00:28:05,440
so I think, unfortunately COVID really accelerated some of these

574
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:06,839
trends and just made them worse.

575
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: I think a lot of these school administrators need to

576
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,599
read the tech exit and know that it's not too late,

577
00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:13,799
not too late.

578
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 2: To reverse course.

579
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,759
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, so much of this is just self

580
00:28:16,799 --> 00:28:19,359
evident too, Like I think back even to college, when

581
00:28:19,519 --> 00:28:21,319
you know, our brains are a lot more developed than

582
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,759
a lot of these children who are using chromebooks. But

583
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,799
I remember being in my classes and lectures, and you know,

584
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,720
taking notes on a laptop did not compare to taking

585
00:28:29,759 --> 00:28:32,200
notes by hand because you just do not retain the

586
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,279
information at all, and you're memory so many steps past

587
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,200
that that where it's not even about taking notes, it's

588
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,920
just about consuming everything. And you know, even now, like

589
00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:43,359
if I'm going to be reviewing a book or something

590
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,640
and somebody sends me a PDF, I'm like, ah, I

591
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,240
have to print all the pages because I cannot handle

592
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,440
reading it on a screen. It's just you cannot retain

593
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,400
the information the same. And it's just self evidently true

594
00:28:53,599 --> 00:28:55,519
even if you don't read all of the literature on it.

595
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,599
Speaker 2: No, yes, thank you for saying that.

596
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,519
Speaker 3: And I just I want to encourage schools like you

597
00:28:59,519 --> 00:29:01,559
can really be part of the solution, because I hear

598
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,839
so often from parents like they do a really good

599
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,279
job of living out this tech exit lifestyle, and then

600
00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:09,400
they feel like these screens at school are forced upon them,

601
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,359
and then their kids are on screen during the day

602
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,440
way more than they want them to be. But on

603
00:29:13,759 --> 00:29:16,079
the other side, like the schools can actually be part

604
00:29:16,079 --> 00:29:18,960
of the solution in encouraging parents towards this low tech

605
00:29:19,519 --> 00:29:22,960
culture if the school itself doesn't do screens and they

606
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,680
send this message to parents like we want to be

607
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,920
a low tech school and we're not doing cell phones

608
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,920
at school. We encourage you not to do cell phones

609
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,920
at home. So I've seen schools be a really positive

610
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,599
force for change in communities, like kind of led the

611
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,920
way and sent letters to parents and said, we want

612
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,079
to be a smartphone free community, like the school day

613
00:29:40,119 --> 00:29:43,079
will be smartphone free, but even beyond that, we want,

614
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,680
you know, our families to be smartphone free. And so

615
00:29:46,079 --> 00:29:48,039
I just hope more and more schools realize that they

616
00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:51,200
have so much potential to support parents and do it's

617
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,880
best for our kids by being a force for change.

618
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,480
And so anyway, I just I offer lots of examples

619
00:29:56,519 --> 00:29:58,160
of how schools can do that in my.

620
00:29:58,119 --> 00:30:06,920
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621
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622
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623
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629
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631
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632
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Speaker 1: So a lot of the parents that you interviewed about

633
00:30:41,839 --> 00:30:45,720
this and families who have done the tech exit, were

634
00:30:46,319 --> 00:30:48,559
many of them in traditional schools? Like did they just

635
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,440
opt out of this screen learning or what did that

636
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,079
look like for them? Or were most of them out

637
00:30:52,079 --> 00:30:54,240
of the traditional school setting anyway, or in schools that

638
00:30:54,279 --> 00:30:55,279
didn't use screens.

639
00:30:55,559 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 2: That's a good question, I think.

640
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:58,759
Speaker 3: I think a lot of the families did have to

641
00:30:58,799 --> 00:31:01,920
grapple with some school use of screens. I would say

642
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,119
a lot of them opted for like more private schooling,

643
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:10,799
like classical schools or low tech schools that had better policies.

644
00:31:10,319 --> 00:31:13,119
Speaker 2: On it, I think. But then there were families that

645
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:13,599
were in the.

646
00:31:13,519 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 3: Public school system and they just they kind of had

647
00:31:16,279 --> 00:31:18,960
to deal with it, and they explained, you know, the

648
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,000
best thing to do really is have conversations with the

649
00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:25,200
school administrator and with the teachers. And the Wall Street

650
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,680
Journal actually had a great article on some families who

651
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,319
have successfully kind of opted out of the school based screens,

652
00:31:31,039 --> 00:31:33,039
and it was by they would just try to ask

653
00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:35,680
for exemptions and exceptions for their kids, to say, can

654
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,240
my child complete the assignments by paper and pencil? Can

655
00:31:38,279 --> 00:31:40,680
they read this in a physical book, And so I

656
00:31:40,759 --> 00:31:43,240
always tell parents, like, the best starting place is just

657
00:31:43,519 --> 00:31:47,599
having a conversation, trying to be collaborative with your student's

658
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,160
teacher and the school administrator and explaining, you know, this

659
00:31:51,279 --> 00:31:53,759
research and what you've observed in your child and that

660
00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:57,079
it's actually impeding their learning or distracting them, and that

661
00:31:57,119 --> 00:31:58,880
you would like to try to find a better solution.

662
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,440
Because I think every parent that does that, like, you know,

663
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,599
eventually you can change the culture. When they're like, oh, Maygan,

664
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,799
there's ten parents in this class. They don't want that

665
00:32:06,839 --> 00:32:09,039
at tech screens, Like then it doesn't make sense for

666
00:32:09,079 --> 00:32:10,599
me as a teacher to even use it.

667
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: Why don't we all just do pen and paper.

668
00:32:12,759 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 3: So, so there was a mix of schooling arrangements at

669
00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:18,000
families I interviewed in the book, And yes, some opted

670
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,799
out and chose low tech schools on purpose, Some chose

671
00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:24,279
to homeschool to have more control over that. But then

672
00:32:24,359 --> 00:32:26,559
other families just had to kind of navigate the public

673
00:32:26,599 --> 00:32:29,359
school system and do the best they could to navigate

674
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:30,200
those dynamics.

675
00:32:31,359 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: Yep, it's yeah, this squeaky wheel gets the grease. So

676
00:32:33,759 --> 00:32:36,079
it's important to keep just saying the same thing over

677
00:32:36,119 --> 00:32:39,200
and over, even feel like you're not getting there. This

678
00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:41,440
is a total sidebar, but it's just such a good

679
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,440
illustration of this. I worked at a summer camp and

680
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,880
we would go to the same restaurant every Friday night

681
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,000
as a staff in. One of the counselors this restaurant

682
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,519
that we went to, he asked for chocolate milk and

683
00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:54,240
they didn't have chocolate milk. And so every single Friday

684
00:32:54,319 --> 00:32:55,960
night he would ask if they had chocolate milk, and

685
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,039
they always said no, no, no, and eventually they got

686
00:32:58,119 --> 00:33:00,279
chocolate milk because they thought there was this demand that

687
00:33:00,279 --> 00:33:02,039
all of these people were asking, and it was really

688
00:33:02,079 --> 00:33:05,359
just this one guy who precreatedly asked. And so maybe

689
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,519
parents take that as a lesson, Maybe you can be

690
00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:09,880
the change in your school just by repeatedly asking for

691
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,440
exemptions or for tech for low tech stuff.

692
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 3: And absolutely, and I think a lot of times the

693
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,920
schools actually assume the parents want this, and it's true,

694
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,920
like a lot of parents think, like, my kid needs

695
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,240
this type of tech to be prepared for digital age,

696
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,039
and so every parent they hear from that says contrary

697
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,240
is just really helpful for the school to know.

698
00:33:27,519 --> 00:33:30,759
Speaker 2: So yes, raise your voice as a parent, please yes.

699
00:33:31,319 --> 00:33:36,359
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's talk about tech that seems necessary and

700
00:33:36,599 --> 00:33:40,279
what parents can do to mitigate this. So I'm thinking of,

701
00:33:40,599 --> 00:33:43,119
you know, when a child starts driving and a parent

702
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,599
thinks my child needs a phone because they're now driving.

703
00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:47,880
Maybe this is a stupid question, but can you still

704
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,119
buy dumb phones on a normal family plan? Like can

705
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,039
you walk into an horizon and say, we don't want

706
00:33:53,039 --> 00:33:55,799
the smartphone, we want, you know, the Motorola flip phone.

707
00:33:56,039 --> 00:33:57,720
Is that still possible? Is that what.

708
00:33:57,599 --> 00:34:00,519
Speaker 2: Parents should do for safety and security for their child?

709
00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: Like, what's your solution for this?

710
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:02,359
Speaker 2: Yes?

711
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 3: So I actually to have a whole chapter in the

712
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,680
book about this, of like how to adopt alternatives to

713
00:34:06,759 --> 00:34:09,039
smartphones when your child gets to an age where they

714
00:34:09,079 --> 00:34:12,519
genuinely need a communication tool. And so I really encourage

715
00:34:12,559 --> 00:34:14,599
people to delay the age of fort cell phone as

716
00:34:14,599 --> 00:34:17,119
long as possible. But yes, then when a child is driving,

717
00:34:17,599 --> 00:34:20,400
moving around independently, it makes sense for them to have

718
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,000
some type of communication tool. But yeah, there are lots

719
00:34:24,039 --> 00:34:26,559
of really good alternatives for parents that are actually even

720
00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:29,880
better than like the dumb phone, flip phone, Motorola solution,

721
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,000
but they are actually phones that are designed to be

722
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,760
for kids with certain tools that they might need, but

723
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,920
with no access to an Internet browser, no social media,

724
00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:45,199
no really addictive immersive apps, no games. It's just like

725
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,559
very tool based, so it mainly calls and texts, and

726
00:34:48,599 --> 00:34:52,440
then they can sometimes access certain tools like a GPS

727
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,679
when they're driving, because I think some parents are like, oh,

728
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,800
I want them to be able to have directions. So

729
00:34:57,679 --> 00:35:00,639
the pinwheel phone, the gab phone, the Bark phone, and

730
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,840
a lot of them. Yes, they can get They get

731
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,519
carried by all the major mobile carriers. You can keep

732
00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:10,519
your phone plan and offer one of these alternatives. And

733
00:35:10,559 --> 00:35:13,360
I all the parents I've spoken to have been a

734
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,559
lot more pleased with these options than even like the

735
00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:21,199
Motorola flip phone, because Okay, what I think parents don't

736
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,280
realize is now, even like the dumb phones, the flip phones,

737
00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:27,559
uh have an Internet browser or have a YouTube app

738
00:35:27,679 --> 00:35:31,280
like a flip phone, so they actually have more Internet

739
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,000
connectivity than some of these phones that are designed to

740
00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:38,280
be like a totally internet free, social media free phone

741
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:39,280
for children.

742
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,159
Speaker 2: So you just have to be careful. You could walk

743
00:35:41,199 --> 00:35:42,039
into your horizon.

744
00:35:42,079 --> 00:35:44,199
Speaker 3: But I've just seen more and more of the flip

745
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,320
phones actually integrating these features that a parent doesn't want,

746
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,440
and they actually make it really difficult to remove a

747
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,360
friend of mindset. He just like couldn't get this YouTube

748
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,119
app off the dumb flip phone.

749
00:35:55,159 --> 00:35:58,159
Speaker 1: So that is so crazy. They're going to turn us

750
00:35:58,199 --> 00:35:59,960
all into light eights. We're all gonna go full on

751
00:36:00,039 --> 00:36:02,039
Swanson and just throw all of our devices in the track.

752
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:03,159
Speaker 4: Yeah.

753
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, Granted, a flip phone is a lot clunkier to use,

754
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:07,880
and it's going to be harder to use the Internet

755
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:09,800
or text on and different things like that. But I

756
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,239
do think some of these phones, like I actually, as

757
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,719
an adult, gave up my smartphone for a phone called

758
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,920
the wys phone, which just doesn't have any Internet, email,

759
00:36:19,039 --> 00:36:21,519
social media, but it has certain tools like I use

760
00:36:21,639 --> 00:36:25,119
Venmo to pay people. It has Uber if I need

761
00:36:25,159 --> 00:36:27,639
to travel and take an Uber, but it really is

762
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,559
just tool based apps. And so there's better alternatives even

763
00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:33,440
for adults, and so I kind of list all those

764
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,400
options in my book. But yeah, I would recommend to

765
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,519
parents like the pinwheel Phone, the bark Phone, gab Phone,

766
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,119
ys Phone, light Phone. These are all companies like really

767
00:36:43,159 --> 00:36:48,519
designed to provide a very safe and locked down alternative

768
00:36:48,559 --> 00:36:50,079
to a smartphone.

769
00:36:50,679 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: Okay, great. I don't know how much you've dived into

770
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,239
this in your research, but I'm curious your thoughts on

771
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,199
tracking apps like Life three sixty or Find my Friends.

772
00:37:00,039 --> 00:37:04,039
Are they making parents and kids more neurotic? Like how

773
00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:07,960
has this affected our culture broadly and our families specifically.

774
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm pretty like anti the tracking apps because I

775
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,840
just think generations grew up without them, and I think

776
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,239
are a lot more resilient because of it, And I

777
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,119
think it plays into a myth around kind of safetyism,

778
00:37:21,679 --> 00:37:23,440
which is a reason that a lot of parents just

779
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,360
give the smartphone is they like, I need to be

780
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,199
able to track my kids. But as one mom in

781
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,519
the UK told me, she's like, honestly, she's like, you

782
00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:34,199
don't need a smartphone for that. Okay, if you're really concerned,

783
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,639
get them one of these dumb phone alternatives and just

784
00:37:36,679 --> 00:37:39,760
stick an air tag to the back of it. So

785
00:37:40,079 --> 00:37:43,000
I'm like, Okay, true enough, So certainly you do not

786
00:37:43,199 --> 00:37:45,199
need to get a smartphone if you really feel like

787
00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:47,480
you need to track your child's location. But I do

788
00:37:47,559 --> 00:37:51,719
think it's actually important that our children develop a sense

789
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,360
of independence in the real world, so that they learn

790
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,559
the skills for themselves to navigate it that they know

791
00:37:58,639 --> 00:38:01,400
that they're not kind of constantly being monitored or surveilled

792
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,440
where they are, but they actually have to develop resiliency

793
00:38:04,519 --> 00:38:07,159
and critical thinking and problem solving skills for themselves. And

794
00:38:07,199 --> 00:38:09,880
I think we've kind of we've done the opposite of

795
00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:13,159
as a culture. We've really clamped down on kids like

796
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,039
real world independence and freedom and given them kind of

797
00:38:16,199 --> 00:38:19,480
unleashed access to the online world, which is far more

798
00:38:19,559 --> 00:38:22,440
dangerous and harmful and deadly to them. I mean, more

799
00:38:22,519 --> 00:38:26,840
children are dying from suicides from sextortion schemes and just

800
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,239
other online harms than they are dying from some accident

801
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,800
in the real world. So we really have to reverse

802
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,519
our thinking on this, and I think recognize that there

803
00:38:35,519 --> 00:38:39,519
are critical life skills that kids get by actually taking

804
00:38:39,519 --> 00:38:42,320
on a certain amount of risk again in an age

805
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,920
appropriate way in the real world, really does something for

806
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,880
their brains. It's like critical to their development. And so yeah,

807
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,000
I think, of course our job as parents to keep

808
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,719
our kids safe within reason, but I think we do,

809
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,239
especially as they get older, gradually need to let them

810
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,000
take on more responsibility and indians in the real world

811
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,159
where we're not constantly monitoring what they're doing, but we're

812
00:39:04,199 --> 00:39:07,840
actually like empowering them, equipping them, and then trusting them

813
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,400
to make good decisions and to develop the skills that

814
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,480
they really need to be successful adults. And so I

815
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,119
think there's always good parental scaffolding where you're training them

816
00:39:17,159 --> 00:39:19,519
towards this. You're not just like throwing them out there

817
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,760
with no training, but you're trying to gradually as you

818
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,599
train them, take those scaffolds off to let them kind

819
00:39:25,599 --> 00:39:26,880
of stand on their own two feet.

820
00:39:28,119 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

821
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 3: So I would just encourage parents to not kind of

822
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,920
give into the temptation to constantly track and monitor your kid,

823
00:39:34,599 --> 00:39:38,159
especially as they get closer to adulthood, but allow them

824
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,639
more independence to take on real life risks and to

825
00:39:42,159 --> 00:39:44,119
meet up with people in real life. Like I really

826
00:39:44,199 --> 00:39:47,559
encourage them pursuing real life relationships and friendships and being

827
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,360
in their room scrolling online alone.

828
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:51,559
Speaker 2: Right right.

829
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you're right to be realistic about what the

830
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,519
risks actually are, which is that you are probably far

831
00:39:56,559 --> 00:39:59,800
more likely to be groomed or extorted or you know,

832
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,719
traffic or something as something that starts as an online

833
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,400
relationship then as you know, a random act of you know,

834
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,000
child snatching or something in the real world that you

835
00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:12,159
need to be monitoring them on your phone. And also

836
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,840
probably adults doom scrolling habits make this worse by thinking

837
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,000
that these real world crimes are way worse than they

838
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,599
are because we have way too much access to information

839
00:40:21,639 --> 00:40:24,400
that's happening nowhere near us, and it probably makes these

840
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,039
problems seem a lot bigger. Yeah, because of our own

841
00:40:27,159 --> 00:40:28,239
social media habits.

842
00:40:28,679 --> 00:40:29,559
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.

843
00:40:29,599 --> 00:40:31,679
Speaker 3: And I think you know, as parents, of course, you

844
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,559
like you want to talk about these things with your

845
00:40:33,639 --> 00:40:36,000
kids and help them like think through a plan, like okay,

846
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:37,719
you want to go see a movie with your friends?

847
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,400
All right, Like what's your plan? Okay, how are you

848
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,199
going to get there? How are you going to get home?

849
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: Okay?

850
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 3: Great, and like they have a plan and then they

851
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:45,400
go and run with it. But it's not this like

852
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,400
constant parental tracking. And so that's what I mean. Of course,

853
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,679
we want to train our kids to how to handle

854
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,559
the real world. We want to give them the skills

855
00:40:52,559 --> 00:40:54,840
they need to navigate it, but then we actually have

856
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,199
to let them do it and even potentially fail to

857
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,679
like learn from those mistakes to be the kind of

858
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,760
constant helicopter that doesn't let them ever experience any kind

859
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,159
of adverse effects or any failure, because then they'll never

860
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,119
develop the resilience that they need to face life as

861
00:41:11,119 --> 00:41:13,239
an adult, right, right.

862
00:41:13,559 --> 00:41:17,079
Speaker 1: So this kind of veers into adults habits. Let's talk

863
00:41:17,079 --> 00:41:20,440
about ELK screen habits. So how much of what you

864
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,159
talk about in the book and specifically how these things

865
00:41:23,159 --> 00:41:25,320
apply to children, how much of that applies to adults,

866
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,719
Because of course, as adults, you know, our prefrontal cortex

867
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,760
is are actually formed, we do have more real world

868
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,119
experience to draw upon when we're encountering fake digital things.

869
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,800
Although AI is making so much of that even more

870
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,280
difficult to discern, even for people who can more easily

871
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,800
identify counterfeits and scammers. But there still seem to be

872
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,800
so many issues. And I saw a New York Times

873
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,039
article the other day that really was just shocking and

874
00:41:50,159 --> 00:41:58,079
horrifying to me about adults who have relationships with AI chatbots.

875
00:41:58,519 --> 00:42:01,000
There was one in the piece it said there was

876
00:42:01,039 --> 00:42:03,800
some survey and it said one in five American adults

877
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,039
has had an intimate encounter with a chatbot. And I

878
00:42:06,119 --> 00:42:10,599
was like, Oh is happening. The adults are not alright either, No,

879
00:42:11,079 --> 00:42:13,599
So can you speak to that problem and how much

880
00:42:13,599 --> 00:42:15,000
of this applies to adults?

881
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 2: No, I think this is really important. Adults are not

882
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:18,719
immune from the.

883
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:23,199
Speaker 3: Addictive, engrossing effects of smartphones and social media and now

884
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,599
particularly AI chatbots. Like our brains are not immune. Now, granted,

885
00:42:27,679 --> 00:42:30,199
it is much more detrimental to a child's brain who

886
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,639
is not fully developed, and especially children don't have a

887
00:42:33,639 --> 00:42:37,400
fully formed prefrontal cortex. Their dopamine receptors also start multiplying

888
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,559
between ages ten to twelve to help them be more

889
00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:43,519
wired for peer approval and social feedback, and so that

890
00:42:43,599 --> 00:42:46,920
process of development is being hijacked by these things. So

891
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,800
there are certain particular harms to childhood. But adults are

892
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,880
not immune. And I think just studying like the effects

893
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,599
of just the smartphone use on adults and our diminished

894
00:42:58,599 --> 00:43:02,760
attention spans and ability to focus the effects of like

895
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,119
our inability to read and comprehend as much or to

896
00:43:06,119 --> 00:43:10,119
have as strong of memories for things like not to mention, Like,

897
00:43:10,159 --> 00:43:12,719
adults are struggling with mental health issues as well, like

898
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,960
depression and anxiety and suicide often all kind of induced

899
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,360
by these apps and these phones. And also we are

900
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,480
seeing a loneliness epidemic even among adults where they're not

901
00:43:24,559 --> 00:43:26,719
going out and meeting people in real life, they're just

902
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,840
scrolling online behind their smartphones and their screens. And so

903
00:43:31,119 --> 00:43:36,280
I recently saw this like crazy statistic that basically said,

904
00:43:36,639 --> 00:43:39,360
like I forget, I think forty It was forty percent

905
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,960
of men between eighteen to twenty five have never approached

906
00:43:43,039 --> 00:43:45,280
like a woman in real life, Like they have not

907
00:43:45,519 --> 00:43:47,239
asked a woman to go out on a date. They've

908
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,320
not gone out on a date. That's like forty percent

909
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,559
of eighteen to twenty five year old young men. And

910
00:43:51,599 --> 00:43:55,639
so this has broader societal impacts, like what is the

911
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:57,760
future going to look like? We are a society, the

912
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,159
building blocks obviously they depend on marriage and family formation,

913
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,880
and it's so if people are not meeting in real

914
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,119
life and they're not getting married and they're not having kids,

915
00:44:06,519 --> 00:44:12,960
that has like really large ramifications for just our civilizational stability,

916
00:44:13,079 --> 00:44:15,559
Like our birth rate is just going to continue to plummet.

917
00:44:15,639 --> 00:44:19,920
And so yeah, a doctor who's being interviewed recently said like,

918
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,199
we're raising this generation of a social, a sexual men,

919
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,639
and it's not just and then it's also women where

920
00:44:27,039 --> 00:44:31,000
the technologies actually train us to be anti social and

921
00:44:31,159 --> 00:44:33,679
we're not actually trying to meet and pursue people in

922
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,159
real life. We're just going to these online replacements, like unfortunately,

923
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,840
online pornography, social media, and now AI companions. I mean,

924
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,280
why go through the work of trying to develop a

925
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,320
real life relationship that has conflict and friction and you

926
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,360
have to try hard, and you have to dress up

927
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,719
and look nice and present yourself when you can just

928
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,000
go online and talk to a chatbot that will only

929
00:44:56,119 --> 00:45:00,760
like affirm and validate all of your emotions and provide

930
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,519
this kind of frictionless experience. And so I'm really afraid

931
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:09,119
of the civilizational impacts we're going to see, the trends

932
00:45:09,119 --> 00:45:11,639
we're already seeing from smartphones and social media, and the

933
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,159
kind of impact on marriage and fertility, and how AI

934
00:45:15,519 --> 00:45:18,760
and AI companions are only going to accelerate these trends

935
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,360
in a really bad direction. And that article was horrifying

936
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,639
to read, absolutely awful. Are just like delusional, like in

937
00:45:25,679 --> 00:45:28,280
the sense that they're like, he provides me like real

938
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,199
parenting advice and he's a better parent than I am,

939
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,320
is what this one woman said about her like AI husband,

940
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:36,639
And I was like, but that's not true because he

941
00:45:36,679 --> 00:45:39,280
can't be the person with your daughter, Like it's literally

942
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:41,880
it's literally not a human you know, You're like, how

943
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:42,199
do we.

944
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 2: Well of that to people?

945
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: Right? Right?

946
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:45,199
Speaker 2: Yeah?

947
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: And I mean the spiritual effects of this are also

948
00:45:48,039 --> 00:45:50,719
just crazy, Like not only the spiritual effects to your

949
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:55,639
soul of being more concerned with a fake relationship than

950
00:45:55,639 --> 00:45:59,000
with real relationships, but just if you're engrossed in your

951
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,280
phone and not able to see, you know, the gospel

952
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,559
opportunities around you, or the real potential for iron sharpening

953
00:46:04,599 --> 00:46:06,639
iron of like talking to another human being and what

954
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,559
you know that what doors that could open because you're

955
00:46:09,599 --> 00:46:11,679
actually tuned into the people around you that we are

956
00:46:11,679 --> 00:46:13,920
supposed to love and care for. I mean, it's just

957
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:19,480
the effects are not just emotional and physical and mental

958
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,639
even they're also so spiritual. And I think that even

959
00:46:22,639 --> 00:46:25,000
gets lost a lot in this conversation about about the

960
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:26,559
harms of tech, but it's so real.

961
00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 3: No, I appreciate you bringing up the spiritual component because

962
00:46:30,079 --> 00:46:33,079
I actually think there's a weiry, kind of weird spiritual

963
00:46:33,119 --> 00:46:36,960
worship of AI that it's like it's like this being.

964
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,639
And I think also people feel like if they have AI,

965
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,719
they are not going to be as dependent, like they

966
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,119
can actually transcend kind of all these human limitations, Like

967
00:46:47,159 --> 00:46:50,719
we were built ys limited creatures made in God's image,

968
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,440
but we were built finite and we need to have

969
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,880
a relationship with an infinite God. And they are trying

970
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,400
to kind of transcend that and just say that I

971
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,039
actually do not need to be limited by this, and

972
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,480
I actually don't even need other people. I don't need

973
00:47:05,519 --> 00:47:07,199
to be dependent on God. I don't need to be

974
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:11,119
dependent on others because I have this access to AI

975
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,159
and like that's all I need and I can even like,

976
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,239
I mean, some of the really kind of scary transhumanist

977
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,960
stuff in Silicon Valley is that people think that they're

978
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,239
going to like live on in the AI, that like

979
00:47:23,559 --> 00:47:27,760
they will literally transcend themselves in like a bodily sense.

980
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,440
So there is a very scary spiritual element to it

981
00:47:31,519 --> 00:47:33,719
that I don't think the average person is paying attention to,

982
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,000
but it's very much there even in the designers of

983
00:47:37,039 --> 00:47:40,320
these technologies, Like they have this end goal of really

984
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,039
transcending themselves in a very kind of spiritual way, and

985
00:47:43,079 --> 00:47:45,960
they think the AI is going to provide this kind

986
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,840
of awakening, this like new Era the Singularity, and yeah,

987
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:55,159
it's just it's very contrary to any kind of sense

988
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,679
of what real Christian religion looks like.

989
00:47:58,440 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, so.

990
00:48:00,039 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: Well, and it's such a clever lie from the enemy, who,

991
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,400
as a reminder, does seek to devour us. It's not

992
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,639
actually kind, but just I mean, because it is in

993
00:48:08,679 --> 00:48:10,960
many ways a little g God. It does a poor

994
00:48:11,039 --> 00:48:13,360
job of it, but it mimics so many aspects of God,

995
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,280
where it's relational and it seems to be all knowing,

996
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,519
and you know, it has all these aspects that can

997
00:48:18,559 --> 00:48:21,599
trick you into thinking that it I mean, it scratches

998
00:48:21,639 --> 00:48:23,800
the itch of a higher power. But it is not God,

999
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,000
and it is actually limited in ways that we don't know,

1000
00:48:26,119 --> 00:48:29,360
and it's not personal. It can't forgive your sins, it

1001
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,320
can't give you an eternal life, and it purports you

1002
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,000
to these things, but it can't. And so it's just

1003
00:48:35,039 --> 00:48:37,159
really important not to get sucked into that world because

1004
00:48:37,159 --> 00:48:41,480
it can be really, really dangerous. So okay, let's get

1005
00:48:41,639 --> 00:48:44,679
really practical. I would love to know, because we only

1006
00:48:44,679 --> 00:48:46,119
have a couple minutes left. I want to wrap up

1007
00:48:46,159 --> 00:48:48,840
on a positive practical note for people. So I would

1008
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,880
love to know your own personal practices for your kids

1009
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,320
and your family for unplugging and what that looks like

1010
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,400
for you, and then also just encouragement for people who

1011
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:01,320
feel like they are too many that well, we've got

1012
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,679
several kids, they've all got phones, they've all been on

1013
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,719
social media for years. What can they do? And what

1014
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,280
are some practical steps you've already done in your family.

1015
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, So our family, as I mentioned, like, we have

1016
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:18,519
three young children, so very practically, we initially had like

1017
00:49:18,559 --> 00:49:21,360
a smart TV when our youngest was growing up, and

1018
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,480
I just recognized it was too tempting for me to

1019
00:49:23,519 --> 00:49:25,519
like want to put programs on for him. So we

1020
00:49:25,599 --> 00:49:29,119
actually got rid of our smart TV, and we've had

1021
00:49:29,119 --> 00:49:33,280
no tablets, nothing, no really access to screens in the

1022
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,679
home for our kids. We now have a very old

1023
00:49:36,679 --> 00:49:39,559
school dumb TV, so it doesn't connect to the internet,

1024
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,880
and we will occasionally, like use an HDMI chord to

1025
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:47,360
put on a family movie on a Friday night or

1026
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,800
let them watch via literally the rabbit years that we

1027
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:55,679
have watched like a football game on Sunday afternoon with

1028
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:58,440
their dad. So we are very limited on that and

1029
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,840
we're very careful on the content. So our kids have

1030
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:05,920
basically seen an extremely limited amount of things, mainly child

1031
00:50:06,079 --> 00:50:09,840
kind of directed nature documentaries that are literally just about animals,

1032
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:15,440
and then some real life performance type musicals. So they've

1033
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,920
seen the Sound of Music and Mary Poppins, and they

1034
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:19,199
basically just think that that's the.

1035
00:50:19,199 --> 00:50:21,519
Speaker 2: Extent of entertainment available to them.

1036
00:50:22,159 --> 00:50:24,199
Speaker 3: And it's great because it's like real life people who

1037
00:50:24,199 --> 00:50:27,760
are actually acting and dancing. It's slow moving, it's not

1038
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,760
too fast paced, so we've been really careful about that,

1039
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,400
and again it's something they get to occasionally watch on

1040
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,440
a Friday night or like a Saturday or Sunday afternoon,

1041
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,440
so it's not a daily habit. And then we also

1042
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:41,880
are just really careful with our own devices. So each

1043
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,440
my husband and I each have a laptop and a phone.

1044
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:46,840
Mine is not a smartphone, so it doesn't connect to

1045
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,519
the internet. My husband does have a smartphone for his work,

1046
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,719
but we keep those away from the children, password protected

1047
00:50:54,519 --> 00:50:57,679
so that there's no chance that they could ever accidentally

1048
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,559
access them or access anything on it. And then we

1049
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,239
try to have good practices with our own phones when

1050
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,239
we're with our kids. Which is a big part of

1051
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,559
actually why I gave up my smartphone is I felt

1052
00:51:07,599 --> 00:51:09,280
like as a mom, I was too tempted to be

1053
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,159
on it when I was with my kids and be

1054
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:12,679
like multitasking, and.

1055
00:51:12,599 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 2: I just realized it was distracting me from parenting.

1056
00:51:15,039 --> 00:51:17,199
Speaker 3: So I just I realized it for myself, I just

1057
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,760
needed to like not have access. So that's why I

1058
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,760
gave up my smartphone. But in general, we have like

1059
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,239
a phone box that's like a charging station, and so

1060
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,920
when we come home, we try to leave our phones there,

1061
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,079
have a family meal at the table without the phones,

1062
00:51:31,159 --> 00:51:33,159
and then we can access them once the kids go

1063
00:51:33,199 --> 00:51:36,480
to bed. So they're just very cognizant of just trying

1064
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,199
not to have phones be so present or be out

1065
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:40,880
and about when we're with our kids. And when I

1066
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,199
do have to coordinate things on my phone, like meeting

1067
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:46,039
another mom for a playdate or making a quick phone

1068
00:51:46,079 --> 00:51:48,320
call to schedule a doctor's appointment, I always kind of

1069
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,320
narrate what I'm doing to my kids so that they

1070
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,599
understand I'm not just like on here getting lost in

1071
00:51:52,639 --> 00:51:55,000
my phone. I'm like, I'm texting so and so's mom

1072
00:51:55,039 --> 00:51:56,800
that we're coming to the park, or let me just

1073
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,480
call the doctor really fast. So and I honestly try

1074
00:51:59,519 --> 00:52:01,960
to make more phone calls and texting, because then my

1075
00:52:02,039 --> 00:52:05,760
kids can actually hear and observe an adult conversation sure,

1076
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,079
and understand what's going on. So those are just some

1077
00:52:08,159 --> 00:52:10,880
practices we've thought through intentionally, and we kind of try

1078
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,079
to go phone free on Saturdays, and by that, I

1079
00:52:14,159 --> 00:52:15,559
just mean like we just try to be off our

1080
00:52:15,559 --> 00:52:17,559
phones the whole day and just kind of be present

1081
00:52:17,599 --> 00:52:21,400
with the kids and just keep them physically away from ourselves. Yeah,

1082
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:23,320
so those are our main habits. And then for parents

1083
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:25,960
that feel overwhelmed and they don't know where to start,

1084
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,840
I really walk in through in the book just how

1085
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,840
to do a digital detox and ideally for thirty days,

1086
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,239
because this benefits anyone at any age, at any time.

1087
00:52:35,559 --> 00:52:38,639
There's a real science to the detox that our brains

1088
00:52:38,679 --> 00:52:41,559
actually need to kind of be reset and recalibrated, that

1089
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,639
those artificially high dopamine levels that we're used to and

1090
00:52:44,679 --> 00:52:48,360
the brain kind of being in this constant dopamine deficit state,

1091
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,280
the brain can actually return to homeostasis by just being

1092
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,920
off the screens for this extended period of time. And

1093
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,360
so I just encourage parants even if you think, oh.

1094
00:52:58,199 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 2: It's too late for us.

1095
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,559
Speaker 3: That is basically where every parent was before they started

1096
00:53:02,599 --> 00:53:05,480
the detox. In fact, parents, you're like, I can't imagine

1097
00:53:05,519 --> 00:53:07,559
dealing with the child without the screen, and it's like, well,

1098
00:53:07,599 --> 00:53:09,880
of course, how could you, because they are in fact

1099
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:14,239
experiencing an addictive biological response to the screen. But just

1100
00:53:15,039 --> 00:53:18,239
removing the screen it takes time, Like the first week

1101
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,320
I will not lie is really hard, just like the

1102
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,119
first week of starting a diet or making any kind

1103
00:53:23,159 --> 00:53:25,800
of change or breaking a bad habit is initially difficult.

1104
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,800
You almost kind of go through a withdrawal. Then the

1105
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,159
parents said once they pushed through and they got to

1106
00:53:31,199 --> 00:53:34,280
like two weeks, they just couldn't believe the benefits they

1107
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:36,280
saw in their kids. And their kids actually kind of

1108
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,639
stopped asking for the screens and we're just playing with

1109
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:42,559
each other. Their creativity and their own imagination skills came back,

1110
00:53:42,639 --> 00:53:45,679
like kids can actually be self entertained. They are naturally

1111
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,840
creative if we just let them do it. And so

1112
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,320
a lot of the family said that they just they

1113
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:53,400
really couldn't believe it. And then they got to thirty

1114
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,719
days and they saw these results, and they were just like,

1115
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,360
why would we go back to the screens, Like, let's

1116
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,280
just keep going. And so even if you're hesitant or

1117
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,519
skeptical about like doing a tech exit, over the long term,

1118
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,400
I think anyone can commit to just trying something out

1119
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,320
for thirty days, explaining to your kids what you're doing,

1120
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,039
why you're doing this for them, and that you're going

1121
00:54:14,079 --> 00:54:16,960
to try this out as a family for thirty days.

1122
00:54:17,519 --> 00:54:21,360
It can be really really effective. And I think as

1123
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:25,639
parents too, we shouldn't ever be afraid to just apologize

1124
00:54:25,639 --> 00:54:28,119
to our kids. It's not your fault, like you don't

1125
00:54:28,119 --> 00:54:30,960
have to feel guilty or blame yourself. We as parents

1126
00:54:31,039 --> 00:54:32,800
do the best we can with the information we have

1127
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,440
at the time. But when we gain new knowledge and

1128
00:54:35,519 --> 00:54:38,039
new information that this thing that we've been giving to

1129
00:54:38,079 --> 00:54:41,000
our kids is actually harmful for them, it's really okay

1130
00:54:41,039 --> 00:54:43,440
to just say I'm sorry. We should not have given

1131
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,599
you a smartphone. We didn't know, and we're your parents

1132
00:54:46,599 --> 00:54:47,960
and we want to do it's best for you. And

1133
00:54:48,039 --> 00:54:50,280
so this is going to be hard, it's not going

1134
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,920
to be initially pleasant to kind of go through this detoks,

1135
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,079
but I really need you to believe me and trust

1136
00:54:56,079 --> 00:54:58,199
me that you are going to be a better person

1137
00:54:58,559 --> 00:55:01,039
on the other side of this. Our family is going

1138
00:55:01,079 --> 00:55:04,920
to be stronger for having given these things up. And yeah,

1139
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:06,760
and so I think it's really nevered too late to

1140
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,440
reverse course. It doesn't mean it's always the easiest path. Initially,

1141
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,039
I think the path of least resistance is just kind

1142
00:55:13,039 --> 00:55:16,280
of handing the kid the screen, but it is so

1143
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,119
worth it in the long term for their well being

1144
00:55:19,199 --> 00:55:22,519
and flourishing, and it really does get easier as you

1145
00:55:22,639 --> 00:55:25,519
keep going. So I would just say you can read

1146
00:55:25,559 --> 00:55:28,559
the book about more details for the detoks, but just

1147
00:55:28,679 --> 00:55:31,519
know you're not alone. And so many families have walked

1148
00:55:31,559 --> 00:55:34,880
this road before with a lot of hesitation and uncertainty

1149
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:38,760
about doing the detalks, and then ended the detalks and said, wow,

1150
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:40,320
I just wish we had done that sooner.

1151
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 2: You know, why was I so afraid to do that?

1152
00:55:42,199 --> 00:55:45,599
Speaker 3: So yeah, that would be my encouragement is just try

1153
00:55:45,639 --> 00:55:48,320
it out yourself and see the results for yourself.

1154
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so hopeful. Well, everybody should read The Tech

1155
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,159
Exit and you can also find much more of Claire's

1156
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:58,800
writing and podcasting and everything else online. Claire, thank you

1157
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:00,679
so much for joining me to It was truly a

1158
00:56:00,679 --> 00:56:02,599
pleasure to talk to you about this and really pick

1159
00:56:02,639 --> 00:56:03,840
your brain and get some more tools.

1160
00:56:04,599 --> 00:56:06,159
Speaker 2: Absolutely so glad to be here.

1161
00:56:11,519 --> 00:56:14,039
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for tuning into this week's episode

1162
00:56:14,079 --> 00:56:17,599
of The Kylie Cast. If you'd like more information about

1163
00:56:17,639 --> 00:56:21,719
Claire's book and other resources for screen detox in your life,

1164
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,440
you can go check out her website at the techexit

1165
00:56:24,559 --> 00:56:27,800
dot com. There you'll find a lot of practical resources,

1166
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:31,280
ideas for detox swaps so instead of screens you can

1167
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,480
do this activity things like that, and a checklist for

1168
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,159
doing the tech Exit yourself in your own home. You

1169
00:56:38,199 --> 00:56:41,519
can also find Claire on Instagram at the Tech Exit.

1170
00:56:41,639 --> 00:56:44,039
If you haven't done so already, please like and subscribe

1171
00:56:44,079 --> 00:56:47,159
wherever you get your podcasts. I will be right back

1172
00:56:47,159 --> 00:56:49,960
here next week with more so until then, just remember

1173
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:58,760
the truth hurts, but it won't kill you.