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Speaker 1: A few years ago, I was invited by the Jung

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Society of Montreal to give a talk, and I was

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a little overwhelmed, of course, because you know, people know

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that I'm not that big of a fan of Jung.

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But also I know that many of the people that

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read Jung are quite intelligent and do have a good

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sense of symbolism. You know, the reasons why I struggle

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with Yung. Sometimes he does have good insight. That's not

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the reason why I struggle with him anyways, And so

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I accepted to do it, and I thought, I'm going

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to really try to up my game, and I'm going

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to try to pull the story of Genesis together into

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a symbolic description. Made a lot of effort to bring

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it together, and it turned out to be one of

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my more successful lectures, I believe. And in fact, it's

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already been posted online on Jordan Peterson's channel, and it's

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the only video I've done that it's just me talking

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that has more than a million views. And so I

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think that I did hit the nail somewhere. Interestingly enough,

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in this video, I didn't know that Jordan Peterson was

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actually going to be in the audience, and you know,

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I had the zoom in front of me with all

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the different people and I'm giving my election. At some

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point I see that Tammy Peterson is there, and I'm like, oh,

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Tammy's there, And then all of a sudden, I see

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Jordan appear in the Tammy Peterson window, and I was like, Oh,

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that's hilarious. And it was at a time when he

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was still kind of coming back from his disease and

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I hadn't had that many chances to see him or

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to talk to him, so it was really a nice

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moment for me to kind of see him appear and

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to see that he was doing well. And so we

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thought that, you know, now that I'm getting ready to

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bring together symbolic thinking into a symbolism masterclass, which is

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starting this week, that'd be a good idea to revisit

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this and to post it on my channel, because it's

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never been posted on my channel, And so if you

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haven't seen this video, I would say please enjoy, and

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if you've already seen it, it might be a good

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idea to rewatch it because there's a lot in there

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and I feel like it's a place where I was

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able to pull symbolic thinking together in a pretty coherent way,

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So please enjoy. This is Jonathan Pejel. Welcome to the

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symbolic world. Well, hello everybody, thank you for inviting me.

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This is really a wonderful opportunity. I'm surprised to see

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some people that I know in the I'm kind of

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looking at the mosaic here of everybody. Not everybody, but

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some people. So I'm surprised to see some people that

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I know and then some people that I don't know.

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And so what I want to do with you today

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is I want to kind of take you on a

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symbolic trip. I want to present you, first of all,

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the let's say, the source of the symbolism that I

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try to present, the frame you could say of this.

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I'm going to present it maybe in a little more

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of a little more of a technical way that I

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usually do in the in the more kind of colloquial

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way that I do on YouTube, So hopefully that'll be okay.

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And then what I'll do is I'll take you on

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an example of this symbolic pattern, very basic example, which

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is we're going to read the first chapter of Genesis

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together and we're going to try to look at how

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it kind of manifests the symbolic pattern and how this

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becomes a kind of map that you can use to

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interpret the world, but also a map, especially a map

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that you can use to inhabit your life. And so

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we'll see that symbolism is not also not only about interpretation.

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I mean, as unions, you know that it's a way

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to be in a way to kind of inhabit the world.

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And so there's an interesting moment right now. I think

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in the zeitgeist in the culture, something like the end

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of materialism or the end of physicalism. We saw. Of course,

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I think that that Jordan Peterson has played a big

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role in poking at this, you know, kind of poking

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at the new atheist, this last weird new atheist moment

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that we had in the early two thousands. So what

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we're seeing is kind of materialism running to its end.

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And it's happening in physics with the problem with the observer.

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It's happening in things like like just this notion of

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complexity or complexity theory, the problem of emergence. All of

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these things are bringing materialism to its end. And the

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way that I like to understand it is that for

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a while we had this kind of weird duality of

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mind and body or mind and matter, where we kind

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of abstracted the mind into this place that we didn't

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talk about, and then we look at the world and

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we interpret reality. And as materialism kind of ran its course,

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as this kind of scientism ran its course, at some

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point you could say there is something of a little moment,

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a surprising moment of pride. Where as we're kind of

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exhausting the things that we study, people realize that, well,

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there's this one thing that we haven't studied. It's the

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thing that's looking at everything else. Like we're studying the world,

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the world, the world. But all of a sudden we

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realize that there's a viewer that's doing that studying. And

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as soon as the materialist eye you could say, turned

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towards the viewer, turned towards the interpreter, turned towards trying

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to understand consciousness, trying to understand meaning itself, then things

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become very loopy and certain. The simplicity of the dualistic

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model stops to make sense. And this happens very much

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in terms of evolutionary thinking. What evolutionary thinking is did

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in some parts is try to explain the motivations of humans.

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But when you start to do that, you have a

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problem because this human who's talking about evolution is what

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you're trying to interpret, and so you're actually interpreting the interpreter.

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And so what has happened is that it's opened the

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door to all kinds of questions, the problem of emergence,

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the problem of quality, and one of the big things

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that's happened is the problem of attention. And this has

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been manifesting itself in different fields, and it's realizing that

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the world is too complex, that the world actually is

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kind of indefinite in its complexity. You know, everything you

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look at, everything you encounter, has an indefinite amount of complexity,

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and it's made of parts, and those parts also have

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an indefinite amount of complexity, and you can just scale

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that down, you know, to the quantum field or whatever.

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And many thinkers realize, how is it that how does

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this work? How do things scale up between different levels

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of phenomena? Is how is it that I can look

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at a chair and see that the chair is both

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one thing. It's a chair, but it also is many things,

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and those many things are also many things. But I

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can perceive at every level of reality that there's unity.

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So I can notice a leg of a chair, and

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I can notice the color of the chair, but I

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can also see that all of this participates in what

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in the being of the chair. And this is like

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a hard problem. It's a it's a it's a it's

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a difficult problem because it ends up being it ends

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up infecting all of meaning making, and it infects science

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and infects It's not an infection, it's a it's actually

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a kind of healing, I think. But it kind of

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seeps back into science and sees back into back into, uh,

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the very way in which we understand the world. And

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we realize that we have difficulty accounting for the qualities

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of things using descriptive means, that we have difficulty even

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accounting for the identity of things using descriptive means. So

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once we have the identity, we can describe things. But

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the identity seems to to kind of emerge from somewhere

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else or come from somewhere else and kind of brings

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multiplicity into unity. And so what's fascinating is that it has,

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like I said, it has opened up all of a

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sudden the possibility for people to kind of to understand

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ancient thinking in a way that until recently was very

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difficult to understand. And so if we understand so we

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realize that the world has to be patterned, that there

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has to be patterns in the world. And this is

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more than just a psychological reality. It's not just about

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describing the psyche of the human person. It's actually a

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descript a cosmological argument. It's an argument about how reality works,

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which is that for things to exist, they have to

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be patterned. And those patterns seems to seem to stack

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up at different levels of reality and also seem to

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exist in smaller patterns, seems to exist in bigger patterns, right.

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I mean, you can think about it physically or think

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about it in any way you want. And this actually

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seems to be something which is inevitable for us to

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be able to even encounter the world. Now, what the

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means is that it brings back the idea of intelligence,

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the idea of consciousness, and it can reconnect us to

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how the ancients talked about it. Some people are talking

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about something like the revenge of Aristotle, right, or the

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revenge of Plato. Because suddenly when we talk, when we

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we have to re enter our experience and try to

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analyze our experience. We realize that, oh, actually, when Aristotle

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talked about potentiality and actuality, I experience that every single

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day of my life, right, I actually encounter the field

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that presents itself to me as potential, which is brought

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into patterns, brought into actualities that I need in order

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to be able to exist. Right, And those actualities, those patterns,

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they're not just they're not just mathematical patterns or ideas

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in the in the vague platonic sense that people have,

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but they're actually teleological. They're purposes, right, and these purposes

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says they can be regained from evolutionary thinking, which is

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just the strangest thing in the world. Like who would

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have thought that Darwin would bring Plato back? But when

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we re enter evolutionary thinking, we realize that we need

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purposes in order to encounter the world. So it's like,

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if I this cup, the fact that I recognize it

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as a cup is because I recognize its purpose. It's

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purpose to me as a human being, and that actually

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scales the hierarchy of purposes. Even in terms of science, right,

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people think that science is is just a study of phenomena.

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But we always forget that science is embedded into us,

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into social systems, and that, for example, the science that

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will get the most totten will always be the science

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that is the most fascinating or useful for humans, and

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the science that will get the least attention, which means

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the least money, the least effort to study, will be

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the things that are the least useful for humans. So

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as soon as you re embed science into its actual

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social frame, then all of a sudden, this hierarchy just

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reappears again, this ancient hierarchy, which is basically you could

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call it something like the religious the religious hierarchy. So

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what it does is that these patterns, these teleological pattern

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these patterns with purpose, come back into the way in

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which we actually exist in the world. So you can

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understand that ritual suddenly makes sense again. Not only does

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it make sense, but it's actually inevitable. And you can

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see everything you do through ritual because everything you do

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in the world is pattern teleologically. It's patterned towards purpose

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and when it and sometimes let's say, there are moments

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in which that purpose will kind of break down, but

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that is also part of the that's a great ritual,

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which usually involves something like carnival, which involves aspects of

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chaos on the edges of these patterns. And so if

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you if so, you realize that, like drinking a cup

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of water, is necessarily ritualized. It has to be teleological,

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and it has to have a certain form. I have

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to do certain things in a certain order in order

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for me to be able to achieve the purpose that

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I'm reaching with my with my with my cup. Now

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bring this into the human sphere, it's the same. And

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when I encounter someone, my encounter necessarily has to be ritualized.

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And you can realize that it has to be ritualized

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because if you try to do the opposite of the ritual,

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you're gonna get some funny reactions. Right, Try to talk

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to the back of someone's head, for example, for a while,

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or just lay down on the middle of the ground

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while you're speaking to someone, and you'll realize that human

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relationships are extremely ritualized. Right. We speak and we feel

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the tension. Right, So if you're like a rubber band,

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you speak and then you have to stop speaking and

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you have to listen, and so there's this kind of

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wave this back and forth wave this call and response

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you could call it. That happens in a conversation that

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if you don't follow that pattern, you're going to break

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the relationship and no one's gonna want to talk to

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you anymore. And everybody knows someone like that, and everybody

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sometimes has fallen into that excess where they've talked too

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much and they realize it, or they haven't talked enough.

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They just listen and didn't give their opinion, and the

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other person feels like you weren't there. So we can

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see that this is how it works. Now you can

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scale this pattern and up from simple human interactions, from

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simple human engagement with objects into social interactions as well.

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That is, we realize that in order to have teleology,

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in order to have purpose, and in order for a

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group to have purpose, it has to encounter itself ritually.

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It has to have things which bind it together, which

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make it make the group recognize that it is act

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it is together. Because this is the problem of multiplicity

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and the problem of complexity happens especially in terms of

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human interactions. What's the difference between a group and a crowd,

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what's the difference between the team and a crowd? Right,

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there are a bunch of people that are together, but

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one of them is not bound teleologically, and the other

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is right, a team is bound teleologically. It's a soccer team.

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They are bound towards a purpose. They're bound towards a

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common a common identity, and that common identity will manifest

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itself in ritual. And the ritual include those rituals include

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the rules of the game, the rules of engagement. Those

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rituals also includes other things which are more related to identity.

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And this is something which will bring us straight into

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religious ritual. That is, those rituals include the capacity to

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attend to the thing that binds us together. And this

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is when we're going to start to realize that this

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pattern is almost first and foremost a pattern of attention.

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Are the manner in which we're capable of paying attention.

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And so a team will have to attend to those

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things that bind them together. And what that will look

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like will be something like celebration. You know, at the

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fear of sounding somewhat scandalous to people, it's going to

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look something like worship, like a little worship to be

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a celebration of the thing which binds us together, reverence,

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towards the thing that Brian binds us together. I don't

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want to I use the word worship to scandalize a

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little bit, but like reverence is fine, right, And so

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they will have to reverence their team colors, they have

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to reverence their team name. They have to have a totem,

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a mascot which will represent them in a mythological with

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the mythological frame as a kind of an animal or

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some some figure that has more social connotation that will

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bind their identity together. And then they will also be

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bound you'd say, on the human level, through a person

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who will represent their ideal, a team captain, the coach,

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at different levels in the in this kind of hierarchy

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of being. And so you will see that a sports team,

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but not a sports seem a knitting group or anything

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that is bound together will necessarily have to have these

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elements at different levels of of of of reality. Now

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out One of the aspects is that it will also

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have to judge what is inside and what is outside,

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and what will be the judge of that inside and

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outside will be their reason for existing. Right, And so

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you could say the logo some to use a Christian term,

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the logos of the group will be that which binds together,

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which joins the body into one, but will also be

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that with judges those that are inside, to bind them,

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but also to exclude them. And so think of a

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knitting group, for example, Right, you have a knitting group.

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A bunch of people come together, they knit together. That's

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what they do. And so there's a ritualized reality to that,

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which is that when they meet, they're going to knit.

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Now as they're knitting, they'll probably do other things as well. Well.

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They'll talk, they'll chat, they'll they'll talk about their lives,

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they might you know, someone might bring something to eat.

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And this is all going to kind of organically participate

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in the knitting group. But let's say that at some

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point someone comes and says, well, you know, I like

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this knitting group. I like to use this knitting group,

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but I don't want to knit. I want to play music.

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And so they're like, okay, well, maybe one person playing

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music while we're knitting is not a big deal. And so,

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you know, they play music. And then that person invites

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someone else and says, I like this knitting group, but

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this music playing is pretty cool. So what if I

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brought my instrument and then we start playing music. So

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imagine now that process going on to a point where, well, okay,

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are we a knitting group? Are we a band? Like?

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What's going on? We have to decide, we have to judge.

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Either we exclude these musicians or exclude their practice, or

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we cease being what we are. We die. Basically, this

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knitting group's going to cease to exist. It's going to

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be transformed into something else. Okay. And so this is

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how kind of this pattern acts as the attention that

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we give towards the teleology of the group will also

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act the logos of that the reason, the purpose that

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I'm looking at will look like a binding a but

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will also look like a judge. And so, like I said,

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this is how all kind of reality works, or all

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of how reality lays itself out. This is it, folks.

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This might just be the culmination of my life's work.

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Join me for the Symbolism masterclass this April twenty twenty five.

325
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,680
During this course, I'll take you by the hand into

326
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,440
the essentials and depths of symbolic thinking over six weeks

327
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,519
and over eighteen hours of lectures and q and as

328
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in a concise and comprehensive way. I'll teach you everything

329
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,519
about how I think, so that by the end you

330
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,680
might see the world anew. This class will not only

331
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,839
be an introduction, but also a deep dive into a

332
00:19:44,839 --> 00:19:48,799
way of seeing that cuts right through our secular dead end.

333
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,799
It reconnects the ancient religious ideas with some of the

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00:19:52,839 --> 00:19:56,960
most cutting edge notions of complexity developed today. As the

335
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world is shaking and changing at an increase rapid paced,

336
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being able to read the patterns of reality will give

337
00:20:04,799 --> 00:20:07,680
you an anchor and a solid sense of what is

338
00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:10,519
up and what is down. In this class, we will

339
00:20:10,519 --> 00:20:13,559
talk about so many things about heaven and earth, the

340
00:20:13,599 --> 00:20:18,640
sacred and the secular, the Bible, dragons, demons, fairies. Will

341
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:23,920
explore the surprising value of conspiracy theories, how symbolic patterns

342
00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,839
are found in movies and science, philosophy art. We'll look

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00:20:27,839 --> 00:20:31,359
at the relationship of symbolism to natural selection. We'll look

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00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,559
at the basic patterns of the world of sacrifice, of

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00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:38,640
the center, the margin, the masculine, the feminine, the mountain,

346
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,200
time and space, left and right. It will be a

347
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:47,039
synthesis of everything I've covered in the five hundred YouTube

348
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,240
videos that put out over the years, and much more

349
00:20:50,319 --> 00:20:53,799
as well. Now all in a structure that has one purpose,

350
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,119
which is to make you a master of symbolic thinking.

351
00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,920
This is your opportunity to get to the core of

352
00:21:00,039 --> 00:21:03,720
what symbolism is, to ask questions, to test out your ideas,

353
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,160
and to make sure you have a strong foundation of

354
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,039
the fundamentals. Plus getting some hidden gems that I have

355
00:21:10,279 --> 00:21:13,559
never shared before. So don't miss out on the live

356
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,680
experience and register today. Of course, as usual, patrons at

357
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,559
the involved level or plus get ten percent off indefinitely.

358
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,359
But also if you sign up before April sixth, you

359
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,240
can get fifteen percent off with the Code Master Class one.

360
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And so I will see all of you in class.

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And so what I want to do is I want

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to kind of show you that this pattern that I'm

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talking about is really just it is a cosmological argument.

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It's an argument about how reality works. And what it

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does is that it argues about how reality works based

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on the notion that intelligence is necessary for reality to unfold.

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And so this is something which is kind of bubbling up, right,

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It's not something which is that everybody agrees with in

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the world, but it's something which is bubbling up and

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we're seeing a peer in different fields, as even in science,

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we're finding some physicists who are arguing what they call

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the strong anthropic principle, which is that consciousness or intelligence

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is necessary for the for the world to unfold, because

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intelligence is the only thing which is able to discern

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pattern and not just discern but it's like a it's

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not just a discern and it's a participation in pattern, right,

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because the agent the pattern ends up coagulating in the agent,

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you could say. And so the conscious being sees these

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pattern but also engages with these patterns and transforms these patterns.

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It's not just a it's not just a passive can

381
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I say, it's not just a passive relationship to the world.

382
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It's an active, embodied relationship to the world. Okay, now

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before I give you before we go on the example,

384
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I want to say that this once you kind of

385
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enter into this way of thinking, it has certain consequences, right,

386
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And one of the consequences is that the intelligent perception,

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the perception of the embodied intelligence, becomes the primary mode

388
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of engagement and interpretation in the world. And when I'm

389
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saying this, this is extremely important because we tend to

390
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abstract and become scientists, and we think that that is

391
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the primary way to interpret reality, and we do it.

392
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We all do it. We analyze, we're analysts. We look

393
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at the patterns from outside, right, we try to stand

394
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above and say, well, look at that interesting pattern in

395
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that culture, and look at that interesting pattern in that culture,

396
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and look at how nice it is that they're the same.

397
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And we're kind of like these these embodied beings that

398
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are just looking at the world supposedly. But once you

399
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realize that, once you realize this notion that intelligence is

400
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necessary and this ritualized embodied reality is necessary for the

401
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world to appear, then it changes everything because you have

402
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to embody, you have. The real way to engage the

403
00:24:24,759 --> 00:24:28,079
world is the embodied way. So it's not that we're

404
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standing above the stories and we're interpreting the stories. It's

405
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not that we're standing above the images and we're interpreting

406
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the images. We are in a story. We participate in

407
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a story, We participate in communities, we participate in images.

408
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Right they are our communities. There are our images. There

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are are they are the things that make us exist,

410
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right as we kind of actively engage with them. And

411
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so that's why if you if you look at the

412
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way that you know, when when David at the beginning

413
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said that Jonathan is an artist. This is extremely important

414
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in my theory about reality is that it's not it's

415
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like I'm presenting it to you in a way in

416
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,920
the theory, but this presentation that I'm giving you this

417
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is secondary to what is really going on. What is

418
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really going on is that to the most, to the

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extent that I'm capable of, I get up, I get

420
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up in the morning and I physically carve sacred images. Right.

421
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I go to church on Sunday and I physically participate

422
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in the rituals and the liturgy. You know. I sit

423
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there with my family around the table, and I eat

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a meal, and I realize that this meal is a

425
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smaller version of the ritual that I'm engaging in on

426
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Sunday morning with with my parish. And so it's an

427
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embodied it's an embodied reality, it's an embodied engagement with

428
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the world. And so so, like I said, it's it's

429
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,920
a pretty radical. It's very radicals. Sometimes people don't realize

430
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,920
how radical the proposition I'm making is. The proposition I'm

431
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making is is that if what the things I said

432
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are true. That means that the only way for them

433
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to be fully true is for us to dive in

434
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and embody while realizing, of course, and while being aware

435
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of all the problems that come with this pattern as well.

436
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There are many problems that come with this pattern because

437
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I said, right, one of the issues of the reality

438
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of being engaged in a group that has a teleology

439
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that has the purpose is that it excludes. That's the

440
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very nature of a group. A group excludes. Groups always exclude.

441
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That's why they're a group. Because they're not the totality

442
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of all manifestation in the universe. They necessarily need to exclude,

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you know. I mean, even if you want to be

444
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inclusive and the kind of the kind of let's say,

445
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,000
politically correct way, you're still going to exclude animals from

446
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,000
your group, where you're still going to exclude rocks from

447
00:26:57,079 --> 00:27:00,279
your group. You necessarily have to exclude because you're not

448
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,920
God right, You're not the totality of everything. In order

449
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to kind of move teleologically in the world, you have

450
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to exclude. And so that has a problem that has

451
00:27:08,759 --> 00:27:11,119
difficulty to it. And so but there are ways to

452
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,599
path to, kind of let's say, to deal with those

453
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,200
in a manner which won't make the group completely self

454
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,559
devouring and also won't make you kind of fall into

455
00:27:21,559 --> 00:27:24,640
the chaos of thinking that just that nothing has identity

456
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:30,319
and everything is just a mush of potential, let's say. Okay,

457
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:31,960
So hopefully if that's clear, what I want to do

458
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,480
is I'm going to go into the first chapter of

459
00:27:35,799 --> 00:27:41,039
Genesis and show you how the creation narrative. It's a very,

460
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very wide story. It's a very very it's a huge narrative.

461
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Obviously I can't exhaust it, but I want to show

462
00:27:46,519 --> 00:27:50,480
you is that the manner in which it shows that

463
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,440
the world manifests itself through intelligence, through consciousness, and that

464
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this is actually the agent of how reality comes together

465
00:28:01,079 --> 00:28:04,599
and how we participate in that as intelligent beings. Okay,

466
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,720
and so hopefully you are little aware I will go

467
00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:10,720
through the verses, but I mean I'm not going I

468
00:28:10,759 --> 00:28:12,880
hope everybody's a little bit aware of the creation narrative

469
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,599
in Genesis enough that you'll be able to at least follow.

470
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Speaker 2: All.

471
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Speaker 1: Right, So here we go. Okay, So scripture starts it says,

472
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in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now,

473
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the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the

474
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surface of the deep, and the spirit of God was

475
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hovering over the waters. So what we have are first

476
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,720
the setup of one thing which seems to be outside

477
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of the system, but is related actually to the top

478
00:28:51,839 --> 00:28:54,640
of the system. So you have God who is in

479
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,279
the beginning. The beginning can be interpreted as the head.

480
00:28:58,599 --> 00:29:01,440
That actual word means a head of something. It also

481
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:06,160
means something like the principle, right, the or the origin.

482
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,400
All of these words work into in the beginning. And

483
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,319
so God is in the beginning, and he separates heaven

484
00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:17,079
and earth, and the characteristics he gives of heaven and

485
00:29:17,119 --> 00:29:22,079
earth is that because he says that the spirit was

486
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,400
hovering above the water. Now we have to see the

487
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,920
spirit hovering above the waters as the repetition. You'll see,

488
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,240
it's all going to be repetition and showing you what

489
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,160
the pattern is. And so the spirit hovering above the

490
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:39,000
water is the same as heaven. Heaven is just wind. Right,

491
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,240
We have to be immediate about this. Heaven is that

492
00:29:42,599 --> 00:29:44,799
are the things that you can't see like wind, you

493
00:29:44,839 --> 00:29:47,720
can't see, like your breath, you can't see, like speech,

494
00:29:47,759 --> 00:29:50,680
you can't see. All of these things are things that

495
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,960
you that you can't see. And then so it separates

496
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,559
heaven and earth two basic principles of reality. The Earth

497
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,519
is void, it's empty, it's violence, it's water, and heaven

498
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,799
is spirit, wind, breath, and speech. So at first we

499
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,640
basically just have two categories.

500
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:09,039
Speaker 3: Right.

501
00:30:09,079 --> 00:30:12,599
Speaker 1: The implications of these two categories are not going to

502
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,279
be clear right away. They're going to start to manifest themselves,

503
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,359
but you can already understand it as something like spirit

504
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,160
and potential or actuality and potential is actually totally fine

505
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:28,119
to see. If that way, Dante completely joins together the

506
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:33,000
Aristotelian categories of actuality and potential and in the Creation narrative,

507
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,279
the idea of heaven and earth as these two basic principles.

508
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,480
And so this is just this, right, it's no different.

509
00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:46,400
It's a universal category. It's there in every culture that exists,

510
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,880
this idea of this basic separation of heaven and earth,

511
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,039
and it is completely based on our actual experience in

512
00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:58,279
the world. And if you can't kind of re embody

513
00:30:58,319 --> 00:31:02,960
yourself and realize that this distinction is a very simple

514
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,359
and clear one, you're going to struggle to understand what

515
00:31:06,559 --> 00:31:09,359
the meaning of it can be. Because as you're standing

516
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,920
there like imagine yourself standing there on the ground. Right,

517
00:31:13,319 --> 00:31:17,400
All light comes from above. Right, wind comes from above.

518
00:31:17,759 --> 00:31:20,559
The things that are above are unreachable. You can't touch

519
00:31:20,599 --> 00:31:23,519
the stars, you can't touch the sky. You can't touch

520
00:31:23,559 --> 00:31:25,759
the sun and the moon, all of these things which

521
00:31:25,799 --> 00:31:29,079
give you light and which are the source of wind

522
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,279
invisible movement. Think about it that way. Think of wind

523
00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:37,960
as invisible movement, as invisible patterns of transformation. Okay, see

524
00:31:38,359 --> 00:31:41,160
think of it that way. So you have all of

525
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,039
this above you, and then below you have a world

526
00:31:45,079 --> 00:31:47,319
that you knock your foot against. You have a world

527
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,920
that you can touch, that you can count, that you

528
00:31:50,599 --> 00:31:52,599
that you can get dirty with, that can kill you,

529
00:31:53,359 --> 00:31:56,200
and that is also dark. Right. It hides the sun.

530
00:31:56,279 --> 00:31:58,519
If you take something that's on the ground, you take

531
00:31:58,519 --> 00:32:00,519
a rock and you put it above your head, it's

532
00:32:00,519 --> 00:32:01,720
going to hide the light from you.

533
00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 3: Right.

534
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: This is very embodied. Right, This is very very What

535
00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:13,480
it does is it separates two basic categories of reality.

536
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:16,559
And so when God said let there be light, and

537
00:32:16,599 --> 00:32:19,240
there was light, God saw that the light was good,

538
00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:23,400
and he separated the light from the darkness. God called

539
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,519
the light day, and the darkness he called night. There

540
00:32:25,559 --> 00:32:28,039
was an evening, and there was a morning the first day.

541
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,240
So now it starts to become clear. You can easily understand,

542
00:32:32,359 --> 00:32:36,720
of course, if you can embody yourself that light has

543
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,759
to do with heaven, has to do with spirit, it's above,

544
00:32:41,359 --> 00:32:46,119
and then darkness has something to do with this void.

545
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,119
So you don't necessarily have to represent it below, but

546
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,000
it becomes analogous to below because it's the moment when

547
00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:57,079
the light stops being stopped. It's the moment where the

548
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,480
light stops showing you what the world is like. I'm

549
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,559
placing it like this for you to understand. You wouldn't

550
00:33:02,559 --> 00:33:05,200
necessarily have to put night at the bottom, but this

551
00:33:05,319 --> 00:33:07,240
is a good way to kind of see light dark,

552
00:33:07,839 --> 00:33:11,920
Earth as void and empty, then Heaven as wind, spirit,

553
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:19,839
breath and speech. So God, sorry, let me say it.

554
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:26,519
So God is above and he speaks and light comes

555
00:33:26,559 --> 00:33:35,640
down on on the world. So then God says, let

556
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,119
there be a vault between the water to separate water

557
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,160
from water. So God made the vault and separated the

558
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,359
water under the vault from the water above it. And

559
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,480
so it was so God called the vault sky, and

560
00:33:47,519 --> 00:33:49,319
there was an evening and there was a morning the

561
00:33:49,359 --> 00:33:54,359
second day. All right, So already you're starting to see

562
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:59,839
something like a narrowing. You have heaven above, but now

563
00:33:59,839 --> 00:34:01,920
you have like a second heaven, which is like, okay,

564
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,839
what's going on. You have the water that is below,

565
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,800
it's kind of split into the potentiality, the earth that

566
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,519
is below, it's kind of opened up. And now we

567
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:16,159
have a pattern which is similar, which is setting itself

568
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,719
up inside the world. So there's you're going to start

569
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,840
to see that this pattern of attention is fractal, just

570
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,440
like the way in which multiplicity moves into unity, and

571
00:34:27,519 --> 00:34:29,800
any object in the world or in any community in

572
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,719
the world, happens at every level of reality. And this

573
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,840
is what is going to start to appear to you,

574
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,800
is that the pattern just repeating itself at different levels

575
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,599
until it comes together in the middle. Okay. And so

576
00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:47,880
we have these waters being separated, and then we have

577
00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:52,960
now a secondary heaven, another heaven which is also above,

578
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,599
but it is something like inside the earth. The earth

579
00:34:58,639 --> 00:35:01,679
now is ZAMBI see not the earth exactly the way

580
00:35:01,679 --> 00:35:04,000
that we understand it, but as they inside, the things

581
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,719
that are visible and have are quantifiable. Now Augustine said

582
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,880
this clearly. He said, he said, everything you see and

583
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,559
when you look up in the sky, all the things

584
00:35:14,559 --> 00:35:16,840
you see, the sun, the cloud, the stars, all of

585
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,760
this is the earth, all of this because it can

586
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:26,679
be quantified. But the second heaven, those things above that

587
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,039
actually can be seen and identified, they are like a

588
00:35:30,079 --> 00:35:35,559
secondary heaven. There are pointers towards something which is truly invisible,

589
00:35:35,559 --> 00:35:38,440
you could say, or patterns that are truly invisible. So

590
00:35:38,519 --> 00:35:41,639
the I mean, it's it's not, it's not. I don't

591
00:35:41,639 --> 00:35:43,760
want you to think that I'm being all esoteric here, right,

592
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,800
It's like the world has a pattern that's say, day

593
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,840
and night. That's a pattern. And the thing that manifests

594
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,840
that to you that you can recognize that it is

595
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,280
a pattern is those shining lights up in the sky

596
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,119
that move. Are the shining lights up in the sky.

597
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:04,320
They move, and they reveal to you a regular pattern.

598
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,440
The regular patterns of reality are in the sky. The irregular,

599
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,760
the more embodied irregular patterns are in the world. They're

600
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,639
still there, but they're more irregular. But the ones in

601
00:36:16,679 --> 00:36:19,360
this heavens are regular. Right, every day the sun comes up,

602
00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:22,960
every day, the sun goes down, the moon has its phases,

603
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,360
the stars move in the sky, and so it's it's

604
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:30,800
it's completely natural that these heavenly bodies are pointers the

605
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,400
pattern They point us to patterns. They point us to

606
00:36:34,199 --> 00:36:36,960
the invisible patterns, you could say, even though they are

607
00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:44,679
obviously visible. Okay, So God said, let the water under

608
00:36:44,679 --> 00:36:47,159
the sky be gathered to one place, and let the

609
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,000
dry ground appear. And it was so. So God called

610
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,760
the dry ground land and gather the water, and the

611
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,039
gathered water waters he called seas. And God saw that

612
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,880
it was good. Now I wanted I want to point

613
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,400
to you here something that I haven't pointed to yet before.

614
00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:09,079
So now think of the think of the problem of

615
00:37:09,119 --> 00:37:12,079
intelligence that I'm trying to present to you. And it's

616
00:37:12,159 --> 00:37:16,559
kind of embodied or active participation in the way that

617
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:23,760
reality manifests itself to you teleologically, so God says. And

618
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,480
you can imagine it, like God says, is God shining light? Okay,

619
00:37:29,119 --> 00:37:33,039
So imagine an eye in the sky and that a sun,

620
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,880
and I the sun is the same thing as an eye,

621
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,239
let's say. And this is shining light down on the

622
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:44,039
world and is showing you things. And that has to

623
00:37:44,119 --> 00:37:50,320
do it identifying. So when you encounter something that you've

624
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,199
never seen before and you see it, what is it

625
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,400
that you want to do. You want to identify it.

626
00:37:57,199 --> 00:37:59,480
That's your job. Your job is to identify it. If

627
00:37:59,519 --> 00:38:02,239
you don't ident you don't know if it can kill you,

628
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,199
you don't know if it's dangerous. You have no idea.

629
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:11,719
And so there's a direct relationship between seeing speaking in

630
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,320
the sense of identifying naming. You could say okay, and

631
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:21,800
so God. So God speaks, identifies as light comes down

632
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,760
from heaven, manifests itself on the thing, and then God

633
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:31,639
speaks it into being. But then he sees its relevance.

634
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,639
He recognizes that which is manifesting itself to him, and

635
00:38:36,679 --> 00:38:40,239
he says that it's good. He judges it right away.

636
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:45,320
God judges. Now think of your Think again of your experience.

637
00:38:45,639 --> 00:38:48,559
Think of your just basic experience. Right you walk into

638
00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:54,360
the room, you see the glass, you identify it, and

639
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:59,119
immediately you ask yourself, consciously or unconsciously. You're always asking

640
00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:04,280
yourself if it good. This is necessary because the reason

641
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,719
why you even perceive the glass in the first place

642
00:39:07,039 --> 00:39:10,559
is because you use it to drink water. And so

643
00:39:10,599 --> 00:39:14,039
you always have to ask yourself if it's good or

644
00:39:14,039 --> 00:39:20,039
not is it a good glass? And this is true

645
00:39:20,079 --> 00:39:23,199
about everything that you encounter. You don't even do it consciously.

646
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,079
This is true of everything you encounter. As you're walking

647
00:39:26,559 --> 00:39:31,159
on the grass. You have a system which is constantly judging,

648
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:33,800
because it has to be able to recognize if there

649
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,840
as a whole, it has to be able to recognize

650
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,119
if there's an object in your way, and so it's

651
00:39:38,159 --> 00:39:40,360
looking at the ground, at the grass that you're walking on,

652
00:39:40,599 --> 00:39:46,719
or the path, and it's always identifying, naming and recognizing

653
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:53,039
whether it's good. As Hopeingly this makes sense, all right,

654
00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:01,039
So now we're really going to start to see this

655
00:40:01,079 --> 00:40:05,960
fractal pattern start to appear more clearly. So you have

656
00:40:06,039 --> 00:40:14,159
the basic structure, you have the very invisible patterns of head, principal, origin, wind, spirit, breath, speech,

657
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:23,440
which is completely above. And now you have the void, empty, silent, question, puzzle, darkness, potential,

658
00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:27,639
All of this is below. And now at every level

659
00:40:27,639 --> 00:40:31,000
of reality this is going to start to appear as

660
00:40:31,079 --> 00:40:34,039
being the same pattern. And so, like I said, the

661
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:40,079
potential and the actuality of the glass is relative, obviously,

662
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,760
but it points to some to the pattern itself, to

663
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,760
the pattern of identity and potentiality itself. And so this

664
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,400
is why you're going to see at every level it's

665
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,760
going to repeat. So you have the secondary heavens, which

666
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,480
are the sky, and then you have the secondary earth.

667
00:40:59,159 --> 00:41:02,239
And now in the second earth, the same pattern happens again.

668
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,480
So God creates dry ground and separates it from the waters.

669
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:13,320
So dry ground is above it's higher than water. Right,

670
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,480
this is just basic experience. Dry ground is higher than water.

671
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,639
Dry ground is the place where you live. Dry ground

672
00:41:20,679 --> 00:41:24,239
is the place where you find meaning, because that's where

673
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,559
you build cities, that's where you do things. That's where

674
00:41:26,599 --> 00:41:29,840
you eat all of this like this from the dry ground,

675
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,639
that's where you can breathe air. You can encounter spirit

676
00:41:34,519 --> 00:41:38,599
from the dry ground and light, but you can't in

677
00:41:38,679 --> 00:41:41,280
the sea, right, and the sea if you stay there

678
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,840
too long, you die because you run out of spirit,

679
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,239
you run out of meaning, you run out of air.

680
00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:50,960
All of these analogies play themselves out. So imagine dry

681
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,119
ground as a mountain is the best way to understand it.

682
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,599
You have this mountain, and then at the bottom of

683
00:41:55,599 --> 00:41:59,639
the mountain or around the mountain, you have the sea,

684
00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:03,960
which is an image of the original chaos, the original potentiality,

685
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:09,039
now at a different level. Then God said, let the

686
00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:12,239
land produce vegetation, seed, bearing plants and trees on the

687
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,440
land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to

688
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,679
the various kinds. And it was so the land produced vegetation,

689
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,320
plants bearing seeds according to their kinds, and trees bearing

690
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,559
fruit with seed in accordance to their kinds. And God

691
00:42:24,599 --> 00:42:27,320
saw that it was good, and there was an evening,

692
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,480
and there was a morning of the third day. Now here,

693
00:42:29,559 --> 00:42:31,440
notice again, what is going on?

694
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 3: Right?

695
00:42:33,679 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 1: So God says, let the land produce vegetation. But not

696
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,159
just produce vegetation. What does he say. He's saying, produce

697
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,119
seed bearing plants. Why seed bearing plants? What a strange

698
00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:50,239
thing to say. He's saying seed bearing plants because once

699
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:56,639
again in this pattern, now the seed is the identity

700
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:02,079
and the vegetation is the variation, or is the bottom

701
00:43:02,079 --> 00:43:05,239
part of this pattern. So he's repeating the pattern. He's saying,

702
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,639
you need a way for this identity to recognize the

703
00:43:11,679 --> 00:43:15,559
identity of the plant that's the seed. The seed is

704
00:43:15,599 --> 00:43:19,039
the manner in which you recognize the identity of what

705
00:43:19,119 --> 00:43:25,880
you're encountering. So you want reality to have stability. This

706
00:43:26,039 --> 00:43:28,000
is how we work in the world. We have to

707
00:43:28,039 --> 00:43:31,880
be able to recognize the different plants and in that pattern,

708
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:36,760
what there is is there's both identity and variability. So

709
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,079
we're moving towards that kind of multiplication. But this multiplication

710
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:45,239
always has to be a recognition also of the identity

711
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,639
of each plant and how these plants are different from

712
00:43:47,679 --> 00:43:51,760
each other, and how they participate in a major pattern

713
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,199
of the plants. So you can see this fractal this

714
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,840
fractal process just kind of continuing. And then once again

715
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,199
the same thing God, God says, the identity is in

716
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,639
the God said, it's in the seed of the plants,

717
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,159
and then the plants kind of manifest this variability. God

718
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:14,719
sees and judges and says that it is good. So

719
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:19,360
now you can see same thing the dry ground. On

720
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,079
the dry ground, you have the same pattern of above

721
00:44:22,119 --> 00:44:26,280
and below right identity spirits obviously it's not spirit in

722
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,800
this case, but identity and variability. All right, So we continue.

723
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:33,519
So God said, let there be lights in the vault

724
00:44:33,559 --> 00:44:35,320
of the sky to separate the day from the night,

725
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,920
and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times

726
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,639
and days and years. And let them be lights in

727
00:44:42,679 --> 00:44:44,519
the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.

728
00:44:44,599 --> 00:44:47,280
And it was so God made two great lights, the

729
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,559
greater light to govern the day and the lesser light

730
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,400
to govern the night. He also made the stars. God

731
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:53,960
set them in the vault of the sky to give

732
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,480
light on the earth, to govern the day and the night,

733
00:44:56,559 --> 00:44:59,039
and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that

734
00:44:59,119 --> 00:45:01,079
it was good. There was an evening and there was

735
00:45:01,079 --> 00:45:06,280
a morning the fourth day. So now in the heaven

736
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,079
even in the world of meaning, the same pattern appears.

737
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,440
So the pattern appears below in kind of the world

738
00:45:12,519 --> 00:45:15,800
of manifestation, you could say as a fractal pattern, but

739
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,239
it also appears above in the pattern itself. And so

740
00:45:20,679 --> 00:45:24,280
we have these signs in the sky. They are signs

741
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,239
to mark the days. There are signs for you to

742
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,119
identify the pattern of reality. And there's one of the

743
00:45:31,159 --> 00:45:35,199
major ones, one of the major lights, which is there

744
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,440
to govern the day and went to govern the night.

745
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,519
So you have light and dark. Even in the heavens.

746
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,639
The pattern is fractal all the way through. Every day

747
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:51,119
is going to be like that. Just spoiler here. And

748
00:45:51,199 --> 00:45:53,280
God said, let the water team with living creatures, and

749
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,400
let birds fly above the earth across the boult of

750
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,840
the sky. So God created the great creatures of the sea,

751
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,920
sea monsters. It doesn't say they don't like to say

752
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,760
sea monsters, but great creatures of the sea mean sea

753
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:09,159
serpents and sea monsters. That all these de mythological, mythologizing

754
00:46:09,599 --> 00:46:12,880
Biblicists are the worst. It just means it means sea monsters.

755
00:46:13,559 --> 00:46:15,679
God created the great creatures of the sea, and every

756
00:46:15,679 --> 00:46:18,960
living thing with which the water teams that moves about

757
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,679
it according to their kinds, and every winged bird according

758
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,599
to its kind. And God said saw that it was good.

759
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,679
God blessed them and said, be fruitful, and increase in number,

760
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,840
and fill the water in the seas, and that the

761
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,480
birds increase. On the earth, there's an evening and there's

762
00:46:32,599 --> 00:46:34,760
morning of the fifth day. Now, this is where you're

763
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,400
going to start to see what's really going on, because

764
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,400
until now you might have thought that what I'm saying

765
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,960
is just a bunch of like just random interpretation. But

766
00:46:44,079 --> 00:46:48,719
here it becomes impossible not to see why on earth

767
00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:51,719
would God create birds and fish on the same day.

768
00:46:52,599 --> 00:46:55,760
What is happening. It's the strangest thing in the world.

769
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,360
It seems to us doesn't make any sense. Right, Well,

770
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,480
it only makes sense if we understand that he's constantly

771
00:47:02,599 --> 00:47:06,960
establishing the repetition of the heaven and earth pattern, of

772
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,320
the above and below pattern, which is started from the beginning,

773
00:47:12,639 --> 00:47:15,480
And so he puts he creates the birds above and

774
00:47:15,519 --> 00:47:18,400
this and the sea monsters below, and the fish. So

775
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,239
even in the sea he separates fish and sea monsters.

776
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:23,599
The fish are those that you can eat and you

777
00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:25,519
can encounter, and the sea monsters are those that are

778
00:47:25,519 --> 00:47:28,199
going to eat you. Right, there's a difference between the two.

779
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,280
So you have the fish and the sea monsters. But

780
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,360
even in this whole pattern, you have the birds and

781
00:47:35,559 --> 00:47:39,440
the fish as framing again the same duality which is

782
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,800
being framed from the very beginning of the text. And

783
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:45,719
you have to understand it. That's what's been going on

784
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:51,800
from the beginning, because why would God create vegetation before

785
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,840
he created the sun and the moon. It doesn't make

786
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,280
any sense in terms of science. How can you create

787
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:03,480
vegetation first and then create the sun. It's completely logical

788
00:48:03,519 --> 00:48:06,079
in terms of a scientist, but in terms of a

789
00:48:06,119 --> 00:48:12,000
pattern of reality, it's completely understandable. And what you'll notice

790
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:17,880
is that from the beginning of this whole thing, the

791
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:23,800
bottom stuff appears first. The potentiality kind of manifests itself

792
00:48:24,199 --> 00:48:27,880
first as a question, as this kind of darkness which

793
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,119
is calling to be solved, this potential which is asking

794
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:35,840
to be resolved. And then comes the answer from above,

795
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,599
the name the idea of the light. So think again

796
00:48:39,599 --> 00:48:42,559
about your experience. Right, you encounter something in the world

797
00:48:42,639 --> 00:48:46,039
you can imagine in a microsecond, in a micro microsecond,

798
00:48:46,079 --> 00:48:48,159
the first thing it does is present itself to you

799
00:48:48,199 --> 00:48:52,000
as potential or as puzzle. And then obviously it HAPs

800
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,440
almost simultaneously you immediately identify, judge and make it participate

801
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:02,320
in reality. But you can, obviously so have the experience

802
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:06,199
of seeing something you've never seen before. I mean, everybody's

803
00:49:06,199 --> 00:49:08,880
had that experience. You see something or you experience something

804
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,559
that you've never seen before. So at first it presents

805
00:49:11,559 --> 00:49:13,920
itself to you as as the puzzle, right, It's like,

806
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,079
what is this? And then the process has to happen

807
00:49:17,199 --> 00:49:22,039
is back and forth process of question and identification, of

808
00:49:22,159 --> 00:49:27,360
question and judging in order for you to finally be

809
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,559
able to kind of identify and participate in its existence.

810
00:49:33,039 --> 00:49:38,280
All right, And so now we have God said, let

811
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,719
the land produce living creatures according to their kinds. The livestock,

812
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,280
the creatures that move along the ground and the wild animals,

813
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,760
each according to its kind. And it was so God

814
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,199
made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock

815
00:49:51,199 --> 00:49:53,519
according to the kinds, and all the creatures that move

816
00:49:53,519 --> 00:49:56,360
along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw

817
00:49:56,679 --> 00:50:00,559
that it was good. And so once again, what is happening,

818
00:50:01,599 --> 00:50:04,719
What is happening in this in this this text, Why

819
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:13,920
is it that God separates living creatures between livestock, wild animals,

820
00:50:15,079 --> 00:50:19,119
and creatures that move on the ground. And the answer

821
00:50:19,159 --> 00:50:24,320
is very simple. It's just to continue the very same pattern.

822
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:30,639
This hierarchy that we're seeing is a hierarchy of meaning, right,

823
00:50:30,639 --> 00:50:37,880
It's a hierarchy of identification, participation in reality. And so

824
00:50:38,159 --> 00:50:43,920
when God creates the animals, he does it in the

825
00:50:44,039 --> 00:50:49,360
same in the same pattern. That is, you have livestock.

826
00:50:50,039 --> 00:50:55,000
Livestock is more intelligent animals. Can call them animals that

827
00:50:55,039 --> 00:51:00,000
are closer to us, animals that participate in our intelligence.

828
00:51:00,159 --> 00:51:03,760
There they are the sheep, the cows, all the animals

829
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,519
that kind of let's say, are almost not almost, but

830
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:12,800
are more like extensions of human society. And then you

831
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:16,719
have the wild animals, which are out there in the chaos,

832
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,079
in the in the in the wild in the world

833
00:51:19,079 --> 00:51:22,519
that doesn't completely make sense to us. And now then

834
00:51:22,599 --> 00:51:25,880
the creepy crawlers are the ones that live underground, like

835
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,400
the sea monsters live on the ground, that dig holes

836
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,079
in the ground, that come up, you know, and h

837
00:51:31,199 --> 00:51:34,280
and that don't actually are not completely in the light.

838
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,360
You could say that they are actually hiding in darkness,

839
00:51:37,559 --> 00:51:40,280
hiding under rocks, and so you have to kind of

840
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,480
dig in order to encounter them, you know, just like

841
00:51:43,559 --> 00:51:46,480
the sea monsters are and the fish are underground, just

842
00:51:46,599 --> 00:51:51,079
like the very pattern from the beginning of darkness chaos

843
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:56,840
you know at the bottom, and light meaning participation at

844
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,840
the top. And then of course now we come to

845
00:52:01,039 --> 00:52:02,960
then God said, let us make mankind in our image

846
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:04,760
and her likeness, so that they may rule over the

847
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,199
fish in the sea, and the birds in the sky,

848
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,159
over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over

849
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:17,360
all the creatures that move along the ground. So why

850
00:52:17,519 --> 00:52:21,199
is it that man has to rule? This is like

851
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:24,239
the most politically incorrect thing that you could say, right,

852
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:30,239
what are we talking about? But once you realize this pattern,

853
00:52:30,519 --> 00:52:33,880
the pattern of intelligence, it has to change the way

854
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,280
you see reality, which is that intelligence is the place

855
00:52:39,639 --> 00:52:49,239
in which reality is encountered, identified, and also judged. And

856
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,280
this is going to be a tough pill for a

857
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,559
lot of people to swallow, but at least try to

858
00:52:54,639 --> 00:52:57,599
understand it. Try to understand it in this pattern. So

859
00:52:57,679 --> 00:53:02,440
man has to rule because man is an image of God.

860
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:05,679
Man is an image of God in the sense that

861
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:09,599
man is a locust of intelligence. And all the things

862
00:53:09,599 --> 00:53:13,079
that God said, all the things that you saw from

863
00:53:13,079 --> 00:53:15,440
the beginning, in terms of how God creates the world,

864
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,440
is something that we participate in to a lower at

865
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,960
a lower level. We could say, we recognize that we

866
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,599
participate in that at a lower level, because we do that.

867
00:53:25,119 --> 00:53:30,960
We cast light, we identify, we we judge, and then

868
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,559
and then we are. We are the place in which

869
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:38,239
meaning is gathered into into us. And so now God

870
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:42,199
puts man above all the creatures which are below. Now

871
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:49,400
remember those creatures were already organized in this hierarchy of meaning, right, Livestock,

872
00:53:49,519 --> 00:53:54,199
wild animals, crawlers, fish, stea, monsters, all of this is

873
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,280
organized in this kind of hierarchy of meaning, this hierarchy

874
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,800
of danger, this hierarchy between that which is in the light,

875
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,679
which is identifiable, which participates intelligence, and that which is

876
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,280
below and is in the chaos, and is and is

877
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,519
also dangerous to you, okay, And so we have the

878
00:54:12,599 --> 00:54:16,960
human person meeting in the middle, becoming the place where

879
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,920
all of these patterns kind of join together in the center.

880
00:54:24,199 --> 00:54:26,920
And so then to understand the role of man a

881
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,239
little better, we actually have to go into Genesis too,

882
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,519
just for a little bit to kind of understand, because

883
00:54:31,519 --> 00:54:35,199
in Genesis Too there's another creation narrative which focuses more

884
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:41,199
on the human person. And then it says God, uh, sorry,

885
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,880
let me skip this actually. Oh yeah. So it says

886
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:46,679
that I don't want I don't want to run out

887
00:54:46,679 --> 00:54:48,719
of time here, but he says God bless them, and said,

888
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:52,119
be fruitful, increase in number, Fill the earth and subdue it. Again,

889
00:54:52,559 --> 00:54:57,480
this is going to be difficult. But intelligence fills the

890
00:54:57,559 --> 00:55:00,960
earth and subdues it, not in an in the negative sense,

891
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,639
but in the sense of identifying. Right the scientist that

892
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:07,960
is constantly discovering new species, and all of this is

893
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:12,920
something like intelligence or man filling the earth and subduing

894
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,320
it in the sense of identifying it and making it

895
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:18,400
participate in a pattern of meaning. Rule over the fish

896
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:19,639
in the sea and the burden of the sky and

897
00:55:19,679 --> 00:55:22,599
over every living creature that moves in the ground. Then

898
00:55:22,639 --> 00:55:26,519
God said, I give you every seed bearing plant, et cetera,

899
00:55:26,599 --> 00:55:29,559
et cetera. And then he saw that it was good.

900
00:55:31,159 --> 00:55:34,760
And it's important that when God created the humans, he

901
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:39,280
creates the male and female. And in the scripture there's

902
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,119
a sense in which at first this is almost like

903
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:45,719
man is actually androgynous, that he creates man male and female.

904
00:55:46,599 --> 00:55:50,320
That is in man is the duality of heaven and

905
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:56,440
Earth itself. Right, So there's a microcosm of this basic

906
00:55:56,519 --> 00:56:00,119
duality of heaven and Earth which is being reproduced in

907
00:56:00,159 --> 00:56:04,239
side the human person as within them they also contain

908
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:09,559
this actuality and potentiality, and how they also participate in

909
00:56:09,599 --> 00:56:13,000
the manner in which actuality and potentiality come together in

910
00:56:13,119 --> 00:56:15,840
the world. So it's not just in them, but it's

911
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:22,199
actually in as being intelligent, intelligent subjects, they are able

912
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:26,000
to now encounter the world as this union of these two.

913
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:28,960
All right, So this is where I wanted to go

914
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:30,639
into the second chapter of Genesis just for a little

915
00:56:30,639 --> 00:56:33,239
bit to help you understand how this kind of comes together.

916
00:56:34,519 --> 00:56:35,920
So it says, this is the account of the heavens

917
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:37,880
of the Earth when they were created. When the Lord

918
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:40,760
God made the earth and the heavens now, no shrub

919
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,000
had yet appear on the earth. You see, it's different here.

920
00:56:43,119 --> 00:56:45,519
Here there is a sense in which actually man kind

921
00:56:45,519 --> 00:56:48,559
of comes before everything. He's actually there at the outset

922
00:56:48,679 --> 00:56:51,679
before God did all those other things. Before you can

923
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:55,119
imagine that God was man, or the microcosm or the

924
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,480
intelligent agent was there. Even in the orgin of creation itself,

925
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:01,880
no shrub had yet appear on the earth, and no

926
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,679
plant had sprung up. For the Lord God had not

927
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:06,639
set rain on the earth, and there was no one

928
00:57:06,639 --> 00:57:09,000
to work the ground. But streams came up from the

929
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,400
earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. Then

930
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:14,599
the Lord God formed a man from the dust of

931
00:57:14,679 --> 00:57:18,000
the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life,

932
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:22,679
and the man became a living being. So it's a

933
00:57:22,679 --> 00:57:25,519
similar image as to what we have before. But here

934
00:57:25,719 --> 00:57:29,079
man is there right at the outset. So it says

935
00:57:29,119 --> 00:57:31,599
that there is no plant, there is nothing on the ground,

936
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:35,599
and that water covered the earth. Water came out from

937
00:57:35,599 --> 00:57:37,840
the earth and covered the earth. So it's the same

938
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:41,159
age as before. You have heaven above and the earth below.

939
00:57:41,199 --> 00:57:44,039
The earth is chaos and water. And then what God

940
00:57:44,119 --> 00:57:49,760
does is he gathers all the potentiality, the dust, all

941
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:55,519
this formless chaos. He gathers it into one place, and

942
00:57:55,559 --> 00:58:00,880
then he puts heaven into it. He blows a into

943
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:07,920
this gathered dust. And that's how man becomes a living being. Now,

944
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,239
what I want to propose to you is that process

945
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:17,159
of gathering dust and putting air into it. That's what

946
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:19,559
was being described in the first chapter of Genesis, and

947
00:58:19,599 --> 00:58:23,719
that is how you encounter everything in reality all the time,

948
00:58:24,239 --> 00:58:28,199
non stop. That is, the world presents itself to you

949
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:34,639
as indefinite potential. And the manner in which you are

950
00:58:34,719 --> 00:58:39,760
able to exist in a living world is that intelligence

951
00:58:40,239 --> 00:58:50,400
gathers potential into bodies and then puts purpose or recognizes purpose,

952
00:58:51,639 --> 00:58:56,719
engages with purpose, meaning spirit breast, and that is how

953
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,960
that is how the world actually exists, right, And so

954
00:59:01,119 --> 00:59:04,760
the description in Genesis is a description of how the

955
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:09,239
world exists, not in a scientific way, but in a

956
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:15,440
way which takes into account that intelligence is necessary, that

957
00:59:15,519 --> 00:59:18,440
we are intelligent beings in the world, and that we

958
00:59:18,519 --> 00:59:22,000
can't avoid that problem. We can't pretend that we're not

959
00:59:22,159 --> 00:59:25,639
in the world and that we're just analyzing phenomena, and

960
00:59:25,679 --> 00:59:29,159
that we're not part of that process. So it's a

961
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:34,079
it's a cosmic vision of reality which includes the viewer,

962
00:59:34,119 --> 00:59:36,639
which measures the viewer, whor includes the viewer in the

963
00:59:36,639 --> 00:59:44,719
way in which we understand the world. All right, And

964
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:47,960
so we have this image again now we can we

965
00:59:48,039 --> 00:59:51,760
can represent it this way, but we can also represent

966
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:55,079
it this way. This is a way that will help

967
00:59:55,119 --> 00:59:58,960
you understand. You can realize that you can represent it

968
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:01,960
this way. Understand so much. And this is where I

969
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:04,960
want to make a shameless plug, which is that my

970
01:00:05,079 --> 01:00:08,679
brother Metope, Joe and I we developed a lot of

971
01:00:08,719 --> 01:00:11,599
this way of speaking about reality together, which I which

972
01:00:11,639 --> 01:00:14,199
is not something that we invented. It really is just

973
01:00:14,239 --> 01:00:18,000
a reinterpretation of traditional pattern making. It's an interpretation of

974
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,320
the church fathers, of the rabbis, of the of the

975
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:23,599
brahmin of It's just a way in which we are

976
01:00:23,599 --> 01:00:27,920
trying to represent these traditional stories for the modern world.

977
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,280
He wrote a book called The Language of Creation, which

978
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:32,199
goes through a lot of the things that I'm talking

979
01:00:32,199 --> 01:00:34,920
about in almost in the more even in a more

980
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:38,920
kind of mathematical technical way. So now think of this.

981
01:00:39,519 --> 01:00:43,079
The first image that I showed you as Heaven and Earth.

982
01:00:43,079 --> 01:00:46,960
You could say, so this is the same at the

983
01:00:47,039 --> 01:00:49,639
top you have I'm just laid them out there, like

984
01:00:50,079 --> 01:00:55,199
there's more complexity to this, but it's like Father, Heaven, spirit, light, essence, pattern, mind, purpose,

985
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,440
all of these things which are above, and then at

986
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:07,599
the bottom mother, Earth, chaos, potential, question, body, puzzle, multiplication,

987
01:01:08,159 --> 01:01:13,119
all of these images of that which is below. And

988
01:01:13,199 --> 01:01:17,679
then what you have is you have the pattern which

989
01:01:17,719 --> 01:01:22,480
descends right, the ray of light, the speech, the speaking

990
01:01:22,559 --> 01:01:26,159
which comes down right, the logos which comes down from

991
01:01:26,199 --> 01:01:33,960
the Father and connects with Heaven right, sorry, connect with Earth,

992
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:38,039
and that usually in all traditions pretty much appears at

993
01:01:38,079 --> 01:01:44,480
the top of a mountain, which is just completely completely intuitive. Right,

994
01:01:44,559 --> 01:01:46,519
the mountain is the place where Heaven and earths me

995
01:01:46,679 --> 01:01:49,360
it's like the Earth kind of coming together into a

996
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:54,400
point where the Heaven now touches the Earth at it

997
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:57,840
at its highest point. Okay, But it's also an image

998
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:03,800
of this difference between quality and quantity, identity, variability, you know,

999
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:08,000
all of this kind of image of the relationship between

1000
01:02:08,599 --> 01:02:13,840
the identity of your team and the variability of its players,

1001
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:17,400
of its idiosyncrasies. All of that will kind of come

1002
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:22,360
down below as this image of the mountain or the pyramid.

1003
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:29,400
And so I won't go into to this right now,

1004
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:34,639
but there are there's a center. There's let's a centrifugal

1005
01:02:35,239 --> 01:02:38,880
force and a centripedal force that is there is there

1006
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:43,880
is a capacity to move into attention, to move into identity,

1007
01:02:44,199 --> 01:02:48,079
to move into purpose. And then there's a way in

1008
01:02:48,119 --> 01:02:51,679
which we are able to kind of have this that say,

1009
01:02:52,159 --> 01:02:55,400
but you could call a breakdown of attention or focused attention,

1010
01:02:55,519 --> 01:02:58,639
but is also this kind of general attention you could

1011
01:02:58,679 --> 01:03:01,880
call it where we're we have this general attention on

1012
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:05,000
the on the borders of our even of our visual field,

1013
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:07,599
where it's like almost like an alarm system right where

1014
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,199
things if things we don't have a lot of a

1015
01:03:10,239 --> 01:03:12,639
lot of energy there, but if things pop in, this

1016
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:15,079
variability kind of pops in on the edge. And it's

1017
01:03:15,079 --> 01:03:18,199
the question, right the puzzle. Something's happening here and I

1018
01:03:18,199 --> 01:03:20,159
can't see it. It's a puzzle, So what do I do?

1019
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:23,760
I then put my attention on it, identify it, judge it,

1020
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:25,559
and do all the things that we talked about before.

1021
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:29,320
And so there's there's a there's a centrifugal force and

1022
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:31,800
a centrifugal force. And that's true as much as you're

1023
01:03:32,119 --> 01:03:34,920
in your attention, as it is in a team or

1024
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:39,320
a country, or any group. Anything that has body, there's

1025
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:42,880
something which is making it more towards its identity and

1026
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:46,880
some aspect which is pushing it towards multiplicity, variability, UH,

1027
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:49,239
and potentiality. Okay, I don't want to go into that

1028
01:03:49,239 --> 01:03:50,840
too much because that would take us into a whole

1029
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:54,599
other other world. But just you understand that you probably

1030
01:03:54,599 --> 01:03:56,239
are if your unions, you're aware of the kind of

1031
01:03:56,239 --> 01:04:00,159
coagular solve structure that Young used in terms of alchemy.

1032
01:04:00,199 --> 01:04:02,679
This is exactly what I'm talking about, right, This is

1033
01:04:02,719 --> 01:04:06,280
exactly the Quagula solved pattern, which is a movement towards

1034
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:10,519
solidity and identity and then a dispersion into uh, into potentiality.

1035
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,400
But when I want to help you to understand, especially,

1036
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,760
is that this structure, like this basic pattern can help

1037
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:22,199
you understand so many things. Right. It's it's the pattern

1038
01:04:22,239 --> 01:04:26,039
of a temple, right, it's a it's a pattern of

1039
01:04:26,079 --> 01:04:28,119
a temple. Where in a temple, that's in the in

1040
01:04:28,159 --> 01:04:31,320
the Jewish temple, you have the Holy of Holies where

1041
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:34,559
the where the glory of God would descend in the

1042
01:04:34,559 --> 01:04:37,239
Holy of Holies, and then there you would have a

1043
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:41,440
priest who is just one person, and then outside of

1044
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:44,559
that you would have all these levels of quantification, where

1045
01:04:44,639 --> 01:04:47,480
outside you would have the priestly cast, then you would

1046
01:04:47,519 --> 01:04:50,960
have the faithful, and then you would have the strangers. Right,

1047
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:53,159
it's a pattern of a church which has the same pattern.

1048
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:56,159
You have the altar in the highest point of the church,

1049
01:04:56,519 --> 01:05:00,000
where God descends on the altar, and then there's also

1050
01:05:00,039 --> 01:05:03,480
so a reduced amount of people that are there that

1051
01:05:03,559 --> 01:05:07,280
represent this moving into quality, this moving away from quantity.

1052
01:05:07,639 --> 01:05:10,639
And then the sacraments get dispersed out into the nave

1053
01:05:10,719 --> 01:05:14,559
where the faithful gather, and then there's a narthex or

1054
01:05:14,599 --> 01:05:18,719
a vestibule where strangers come. And then on the outside

1055
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:22,800
of the church there are gargoyles and strangers and other

1056
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:26,440
aspects of reality. Okay, so this is the structure of

1057
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:30,800
the structure of the way that Greeks understood themselves in

1058
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:34,320
ancient times. Right, they had the envelopes, they had they

1059
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:37,679
had the navel of the world, and in that place

1060
01:05:37,719 --> 01:05:41,760
they received oracles from heaven which would which would bind

1061
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:44,880
them together, which would manifest their destiny. All of that

1062
01:05:45,079 --> 01:05:49,159
was manifested at a place where they had the belly

1063
01:05:49,199 --> 01:05:51,360
button of the world, the center of the world. And

1064
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,039
then as you moved away, you would have Greeks, and

1065
01:05:55,079 --> 01:05:59,880
then strangers that you knew, and then finally barbarians and

1066
01:06:00,159 --> 01:06:05,400
ultimately monsters. Things that have confused identities, things that you

1067
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:11,880
don't recognize, would be outside on the outer edges of this. Okay. So,

1068
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:14,000
like I said, this is basically just the pattern of

1069
01:06:14,679 --> 01:06:16,239
the way in which we encounter the world. But it's

1070
01:06:16,239 --> 01:06:19,920
also the pattern of the pattern of how society is

1071
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:23,719
actually buying together. It's not just it's not just a subjective,

1072
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:27,280
subjective experience, but it scales up in terms of your

1073
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:32,880
experience into the social experience and ultimately, I think into

1074
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:36,440
a cosmic Vergin it's an image of the cosmic of

1075
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:39,079
the cosmic pattern. So I just want to show you

1076
01:06:39,199 --> 01:06:41,639
quickly without even going into detail, want to show you

1077
01:06:41,679 --> 01:06:45,800
how this pattern just appears everywhere. So here's an icon

1078
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,400
of the ascension of Christ. Look, you have above, you

1079
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:50,760
have the top of the pyramid or the top of

1080
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:53,119
the mountain. You have the principle of the logos which

1081
01:06:53,159 --> 01:06:56,039
is above. You can imagine that the Father is actually

1082
01:06:56,079 --> 01:06:59,480
above this hidden above, and then below you have the

1083
01:06:59,559 --> 01:07:03,760
Mother as the place of potentiality, and then next to

1084
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:06,199
her you have all this multiplicity. So you have the One,

1085
01:07:06,519 --> 01:07:09,559
you have the Mother, you have the twelve. Okay, this

1086
01:07:09,599 --> 01:07:13,199
is one example. Here's an example of the image of baptism.

1087
01:07:13,639 --> 01:07:17,159
So you have Christ as the one who now joins

1088
01:07:17,159 --> 01:07:19,280
heaven and Earth as this point at the top of

1089
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:22,159
the mountain joinsthing on earth. But now he's descending all

1090
01:07:22,159 --> 01:07:25,039
the way down from the top, let's say, down into

1091
01:07:25,079 --> 01:07:28,280
the waters, down into the waters of chaos, and you

1092
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:32,800
see the spirits above which is coming down on the

1093
01:07:32,559 --> 01:07:35,199
on the top of the mountain, and below you have

1094
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:38,559
the sea monsters which are below in the chaos of

1095
01:07:38,599 --> 01:07:43,239
the waters. Right symbol just many many. So this is

1096
01:07:43,239 --> 01:07:45,239
a version that I made which I call the image

1097
01:07:45,239 --> 01:07:48,719
of Everything basically, and it's just trying to kind of

1098
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:53,760
capture the Bible story as an image of this pattern,

1099
01:07:54,719 --> 01:07:57,679
as an image of what how the top of the

1100
01:07:57,719 --> 01:08:01,079
pattern relates to the bottom of the pattern, the waters

1101
01:08:01,119 --> 01:08:04,440
at the bottom, the sin, the fall, you know, the

1102
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:08,400
thorns as this multiplicity, et cetera. O the sea monster

1103
01:08:09,119 --> 01:08:10,440
and I don't want to interpret it. But there are

1104
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:12,079
different ways in which you can you can kind of

1105
01:08:12,079 --> 01:08:14,920
see this. And the last one I wanted to show

1106
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:17,600
you is an image of the last judgment, which is

1107
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:21,119
really the ultimate image of this if you want to

1108
01:08:21,159 --> 01:08:24,720
see an ultimate image of this whole pattern, because obviously

1109
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:28,079
the last judgment being the last moment or the esketon,

1110
01:08:28,199 --> 01:08:31,319
or the moment in which all the totality is manifested

1111
01:08:31,319 --> 01:08:35,640
in one final thing. Then you have this image of

1112
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:39,760
the world. In this version especially, you actually have the

1113
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:44,680
Father above above right at the top. Can you I

1114
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:47,520
don't think you can see my cursor? Can you see

1115
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:51,520
my cursor? Oh? Here, you can see this way, okay.

1116
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:55,479
So you have the Father above here, Then you have

1117
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:59,439
the logos descending onto the world. Can you see that

1118
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:05,039
he's got the world underneath him? And then you have

1119
01:09:06,359 --> 01:09:11,800
that which is below, which is both the hell, this

1120
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:16,520
kind of monstrous hell, okay, but it's also the place

1121
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:21,199
of paradise here because it's the place in which we

1122
01:09:21,319 --> 01:09:26,600
gather things together. So remember in scripture the gathering of

1123
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:28,760
the dust and the blowing of the spirit. Well, that

1124
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:32,439
also happens from the bottom right, So you have the

1125
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:36,079
two sides. Remember I talked about the centrifugal and the

1126
01:09:36,159 --> 01:09:39,960
centripedal force. On the left of Christ is the sword,

1127
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:46,079
and there's a descent down into death. On the right

1128
01:09:46,119 --> 01:09:51,199
of Christ there is his hand lifting up right lifting,

1129
01:09:51,239 --> 01:09:56,119
sorry wrong hand lifting up. And here you find the

1130
01:09:56,159 --> 01:10:00,840
gathering of the saints and they eyes up. See these

1131
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:03,840
little saints with angel with wings. They go up on

1132
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:11,960
the right of Christ into glory. The other very very

1133
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:13,920
mysterious things about this image that I don't want to

1134
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:19,000
go into too much detail, but you can understand that

1135
01:10:19,079 --> 01:10:22,239
this is happening through these angels that are making music,

1136
01:10:23,159 --> 01:10:25,800
that are making sounds pattern sounds, and this is what

1137
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:29,880
is calling to the end, bringing about the judgment of

1138
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:32,239
all of reality, in which all of this is kind

1139
01:10:32,279 --> 01:10:34,560
of happening, the judging of the good, bringing into the

1140
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:39,640
center and the ultimate exclusion in a cosmic way towards

1141
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:47,079
towards death. And then here this is the process. So

1142
01:10:47,279 --> 01:10:52,680
this is a it's a complicated thing in orthodox theology,

1143
01:10:53,039 --> 01:10:55,640
but on this this is the soul, which is you

1144
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:58,000
can see the soul here. The soul is moving up

1145
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:01,760
this serpent slash ladder. So it's both a way to

1146
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:03,560
go down and a way to go up just like

1147
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:06,039
Shoots and Ladders. Guys, this is Shoots and Ladders is

1148
01:11:06,159 --> 01:11:09,159
one of the oldest games in reality. It's it's a

1149
01:11:09,279 --> 01:11:13,279
truly cosmic game. By the way, it's almost religious as

1150
01:11:13,279 --> 01:11:16,279
a game. So you have this coming down and moving up,

1151
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:19,760
which is which is captured in one image, and on

1152
01:11:20,039 --> 01:11:23,960
this are all the sins that you can have. Those

1153
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:26,960
sins are coupled with virtues, and so as the soul

1154
01:11:27,079 --> 01:11:31,439
ascends this thing, they encounter at every level of reality

1155
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,359
a demon which is pulling it down, but also they

1156
01:11:35,399 --> 01:11:39,039
also encounter angels which are pulling them up. Here in

1157
01:11:39,039 --> 01:11:42,640
this one, you don't see the angel so much. In

1158
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:45,720
other versions you see another version, you'll see the angel.

1159
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:47,800
Like in this one, you see the angel as the

1160
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:50,439
one trying to push down the demon. And as you

1161
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,359
move up, you kind of move towards this this judgment,

1162
01:11:53,399 --> 01:11:55,720
and that's actually that higher chy that I showed you

1163
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:59,399
at the beginning in the creation that also obviously has

1164
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:03,920
an analogous version of that in you, in your virtue,

1165
01:12:04,399 --> 01:12:08,960
in your capacity to scatter yourself into chaos right by

1166
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,720
falling into all these thoughts that rip you apart, and

1167
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:15,920
the capacity to join together into one, and to move

1168
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:20,119
up the ladder of attention as you worship God of attention,

1169
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:24,880
as you move towards virtue, rather than this dilapidation and

1170
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:28,800
distraction by which you lose the worship, you lose the

1171
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:31,439
capacity to attend to that which is above you, and

1172
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:36,920
you fall into chaos and the multiplicity of the passions, right,

1173
01:12:37,239 --> 01:12:40,960
passions that rip you apart. Or and I think we're

1174
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:42,800
starting with your questions, let's go for it.

1175
01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 3: Well, how about sub Do think of the word sub

1176
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:55,439
to or to arrange hierarchically, do to give everything it's due.

1177
01:12:56,239 --> 01:12:59,000
That is, so when man subdues the world, he does

1178
01:12:59,039 --> 01:13:04,159
exactly what you're doing, right, everything place, And that's a

1179
01:13:04,239 --> 01:13:10,680
reflection of the simultaneous act of perception and judgment and

1180
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:14,239
the fact that those things, as you pointed out, are inextricable.

1181
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:20,000
And that's technically true, right people. Psychologists studying perception from

1182
01:13:20,079 --> 01:13:26,520
the biological ground have drawn that inescapable conclusion. So that

1183
01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:32,319
was really cool. Ritual encounters with other people. In Dostoevsky's

1184
01:13:32,359 --> 01:13:35,760
The Devils the Possessed, there's a great scene where Stavagant

1185
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:39,880
goes into an officers club and he's coming on glued

1186
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:44,399
at this point in his political chaos, utopian political chaos.

1187
01:13:44,399 --> 01:13:47,439
He's possessed by these ideas. He puts his fingers in

1188
01:13:47,479 --> 01:13:49,920
the nostrils of an age at general and drags him

1189
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:52,720
onto the street, and it just causes absolute chaos in

1190
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:55,520
the entire society, so that.

1191
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:58,079
Speaker 1: You realize how fragile, like, how easy it is to

1192
01:13:58,159 --> 01:14:02,479
actually just shatter you know, this ritual, ritual reality.

1193
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:07,760
Speaker 3: Yes, Dostievsky understood that so deeply it is, so that's stunning.

1194
01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:13,920
The female potential equation. I've been criticized a thought for

1195
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:17,640
associating femininity with chaos, although it's not an insult and

1196
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:19,840
it's not something that I did casually, and it's not

1197
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:23,680
something I did. And the idea of the seminal word

1198
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:27,520
is precisely a reflection of that, and the implication of

1199
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:32,239
that is feminine potentiality and the analogue between the word

1200
01:14:32,439 --> 01:14:36,800
and the drawing out of potential new forms. So there's

1201
01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:39,600
a sexual element to that, obviously, that's reflected in the

1202
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:44,279
idea of the seminal word. The pyramid notion. On top

1203
01:14:44,359 --> 01:14:50,880
of that, George Washington Power the obelisk is pier capped

1204
01:14:50,920 --> 01:14:54,640
in aluminum, of all things, because aluminium is the most

1205
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:57,359
valuable metal at that point, and so that idea that

1206
01:14:57,399 --> 01:15:04,000
there's an a pure and valuable pop to the pyramidal structure,

1207
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:06,720
Like that's an icon of the entire structure of the

1208
01:15:06,840 --> 01:15:11,479
United States and by extension, the entire let's say Western world,

1209
01:15:11,479 --> 01:15:12,640
but world as such.

1210
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Egyptian pyramids were most probably capped with gold,

1211
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:18,840
Like the very top of the pyramid would be like

1212
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:22,239
a mini pyramid, and then that would have been gilded.

1213
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:25,359
Speaker 3: Right. So one of the advantages to the interpretive framework,

1214
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:29,439
this interpretive framework is that it explains the intrinsic, sacred

1215
01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:32,880
nature of the pyramidal structure. It's a great mystery, like

1216
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:36,439
what's up with these pyramids exactly? Like people put a

1217
01:15:36,479 --> 01:15:39,680
lot of work into those things, so it wasn't trivial.

1218
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:42,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the zigoads are pyramids too. People always want

1219
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:44,880
to separate them. But you know, all these structures, these

1220
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:48,640
kind of these structure that are representing mountains or like

1221
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:51,640
geometric versions of mountains, that's what they are. And if

1222
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:53,399
you want to want you understand that, then you realize

1223
01:15:53,399 --> 01:15:55,399
that every time someone goes up a mountain in scripture,

1224
01:15:56,479 --> 01:15:58,640
it's it's the same as a pyramid. It's going up

1225
01:15:58,640 --> 01:15:59,640
to the top of reality.

1226
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:01,800
Speaker 3: I think you did a brilliant job of explaining that

1227
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:04,960
with your analysis of those images. At the at the end,

1228
01:16:05,359 --> 01:16:08,039
are you going to make that image you made into

1229
01:16:08,079 --> 01:16:08,600
a carving?

1230
01:16:09,319 --> 01:16:12,119
Speaker 1: Yes, I am, but just in line somewhere in one

1231
01:16:12,119 --> 01:16:15,439
of my carving someone as you need a client to

1232
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:17,960
purchase that, I have one, but I.

1233
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:19,960
Speaker 3: Can also make one for you if you want. It's

1234
01:16:20,039 --> 01:16:22,880
quite something, Jonathan. And then this last thing I'll say,

1235
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:27,720
I think is in the second creation version where you

1236
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:33,520
have man primary that's an analog a repetition of the

1237
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:34,560
notion of the word.

1238
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:37,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's the same.

1239
01:16:37,479 --> 01:16:41,119
Speaker 3: So that's so interesting seeing that embedded in a really

1240
01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:44,039
archaic narrative. There. Oh, so I do have one other thing.

1241
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:49,079
Why did you use intelligence as the as the primary

1242
01:16:49,199 --> 01:16:52,960
descriptor of the interactive consciousness instead of logos?

1243
01:16:53,319 --> 01:16:55,680
Speaker 1: Well, the reason why, I mean I tried to kind

1244
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:58,279
of move between the two. It's also because it's hard

1245
01:16:58,319 --> 01:17:01,439
to know which word to you is because the way

1246
01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:04,199
that the ancients understood intelligence was very was a little

1247
01:17:04,199 --> 01:17:06,680
different from the way we understand it. It was more

1248
01:17:07,079 --> 01:17:10,359
it is uh, it's called the noose and orthodox thinking,

1249
01:17:10,399 --> 01:17:14,000
which is it's actually it's beyond rationality. It's the capacity

1250
01:17:14,079 --> 01:17:20,199
to directly grasp the pattern to attention. And that's why

1251
01:17:20,239 --> 01:17:21,199
it's related to attention.

1252
01:17:21,520 --> 01:17:24,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, that and that supersedes rationality is

1253
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:28,399
embedded inside that capacity to pay attention because attention selects

1254
01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:31,920
the objects that rationality deals with, and rationality tends not

1255
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:34,239
to notice that. It's like, well, that's the easy part.

1256
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:36,920
It's like no, no, no, that's that's the hard part.

1257
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:41,000
Speaker 1: Actually. Yeah, And as we see, like YouTube virality is

1258
01:17:41,039 --> 01:17:43,840
a great way to understand what happens when we were

1259
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:46,840
not careful about that, because what we have with YouTube

1260
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:50,680
virality or just internet virality are just these random, you know,

1261
01:17:51,039 --> 01:17:54,520
stupid things that pop up, gather all the attention vanish,

1262
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:57,319
pop up, gather all the attention vanish. And so it's

1263
01:17:57,359 --> 01:17:59,920
actually it actually ends up being a form of break

1264
01:18:00,039 --> 01:18:03,000
down of attention. It's a distraction. It prevents us from

1265
01:18:03,039 --> 01:18:07,119
seeing it's the capacity to pay attention to the right things,

1266
01:18:07,119 --> 01:18:09,399
and it leads us into into a kind of breakdown.

1267
01:18:12,119 --> 01:18:15,359
Speaker 3: It was great, I really I always learned a lot

1268
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:18,199
listening to you. It's really good, really good.

1269
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:21,960
Speaker 1: Thanks, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thanks.

1270
01:18:24,119 --> 01:18:27,520
Speaker 2: Okay, one question someone is asking, could you elaborate on

1271
01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:30,439
what you mean about above and below?

1272
01:18:33,439 --> 01:18:36,399
Speaker 1: Well, the idea of above and below. It's like I said,

1273
01:18:36,399 --> 01:18:39,800
it manifests itself fractally, but it you it's about something

1274
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:42,439
like I mean, it's actual and potential. And so it's

1275
01:18:42,479 --> 01:18:47,960
identity and potentiality, and so think about it. Let's let's

1276
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:50,079
think about it just like it. Let's bring it down

1277
01:18:50,119 --> 01:18:53,279
to like a real, real, like a basic basic level.

1278
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:59,239
So let's think of a of a sports team again, right,

1279
01:18:59,279 --> 01:19:03,199
So you have the identity of the sports team, the

1280
01:19:03,239 --> 01:19:05,880
reason why it exists, which is to win basketball games

1281
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:08,119
or to do that. Then there's the identity of the

1282
01:19:08,159 --> 01:19:11,039
team itself, you know, which is kind of embedded in that.

1283
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:14,119
And then there's the potential the potential of that team

1284
01:19:14,319 --> 01:19:20,439
are the players. Those players have also their own potential.

1285
01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:24,000
Like it's like I said, it's fractal. So the players

1286
01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:28,119
can change, but the identity of the team won't. So

1287
01:19:28,159 --> 01:19:31,119
that's what we mean by potential, right, And so you

1288
01:19:31,199 --> 01:19:37,279
can it's variability which comes together and then is able

1289
01:19:37,319 --> 01:19:41,079
to manifest the purpose in the world. So that's what

1290
01:19:41,159 --> 01:19:44,399
we mean by above and below. And so God says

1291
01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:50,199
to let the earth bring forth vegetation that has seed.

1292
01:19:51,439 --> 01:19:54,720
We always forget that God doesn't just speak it into existence.

1293
01:19:55,439 --> 01:19:59,039
He says, to the earth bring forth right, And so

1294
01:19:59,159 --> 01:20:03,760
it's like out of the potential comes this variability which

1295
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:07,399
then receives name from above and joins it together into

1296
01:20:07,399 --> 01:20:11,319
specific identities and so so, like I said, this idea

1297
01:20:11,319 --> 01:20:13,640
of above and below can be seen in any anything

1298
01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:14,960
that you encounter.

1299
01:20:16,119 --> 01:20:20,520
Speaker 2: Another question, is you mentioned the pattern of livestock and

1300
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:24,479
wild animals that manifest heaven endures are people that try

1301
01:20:24,479 --> 01:20:25,920
to tame animals.

1302
01:20:25,479 --> 01:20:26,399
Speaker 1: Such as tigers.

1303
01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:30,640
Speaker 2: Bears examples of breakdown of the pattern, and that is

1304
01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:32,600
why usually eat tends in disaster.

1305
01:20:34,239 --> 01:20:37,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. I mean you can see that. You have

1306
01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:40,640
to kind of have a respect subdue as Jordan said,

1307
01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:42,399
I love that. I actually love that. That is, you

1308
01:20:42,439 --> 01:20:45,239
have to be able to see things where they really

1309
01:20:45,279 --> 01:20:47,479
are and engage with them where they are in this

1310
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:50,039
kind of pattern of reality. And so if you engage

1311
01:20:50,079 --> 01:20:52,840
with if you engage with the pattern of reality in

1312
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:56,680
the wrong way, that's you die. And it and it

1313
01:20:56,720 --> 01:21:00,479
can be it can be something like taming a tiger,

1314
01:21:01,079 --> 01:21:04,199
but it can also be something like eating rocks, Like

1315
01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:07,800
rocks are not potential that you have access to to eat,

1316
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:12,239
and and and that's true for like an indefinite amount

1317
01:21:12,279 --> 01:21:15,279
of things. That there are certain identities which have certain

1318
01:21:15,279 --> 01:21:18,399
potentials that are that can participate in them. And if

1319
01:21:18,399 --> 01:21:21,520
you don't encounter that properly, then you're going on gonna work.

1320
01:21:21,520 --> 01:21:24,359
If you have a basketball team and you decide to

1321
01:21:24,479 --> 01:21:27,640
fill the basketball team with Gerbils, well your basketball team

1322
01:21:27,680 --> 01:21:30,520
is gonna is gonna lose, it's not gonna exist. And

1323
01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:33,399
so there this is how this this, this is how

1324
01:21:33,399 --> 01:21:35,600
it works. Like in terms of this idea of subduing

1325
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:39,000
right or judging is a very good thing. It's a

1326
01:21:39,039 --> 01:21:42,680
necessary thing because it's how you judge what potential is

1327
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:44,560
able to join with what identity.

1328
01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:50,239
Speaker 2: Okay, we have a heretical question. How sure are you

1329
01:21:50,439 --> 01:21:55,000
about the universality of heaven under distinction as well as

1330
01:21:55,079 --> 01:21:58,359
I now it is symbolic pattern appearing with the exeal

1331
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:05,600
age cultures Buddhis Christianity, Soocrati, Greece, islam Animistic culture for example,

1332
01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:09,760
do not have clear distinction between those two categories. So,

1333
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:12,800
by extension, what makes you sure that all of this

1334
01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:16,680
isn't just a perfect exposition of an exial age?

1335
01:22:16,720 --> 01:22:22,880
Speaker 1: Mind? How can I say this? Now, I'm going to

1336
01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:24,600
go back into what I'm saying. I'm going to go

1337
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:27,359
back into what I'm saying, which is about embodied reality.

1338
01:22:28,039 --> 01:22:31,479
People who talk about the actual age and animistic as

1339
01:22:31,520 --> 01:22:33,920
if they don't exist in the world. They just I

1340
01:22:33,960 --> 01:22:37,279
have no I have very little patience for that, Like

1341
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:40,600
where are you? Where are you to tell me about

1342
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:42,800
the actual age? And if it's something that you're not

1343
01:22:43,359 --> 01:22:46,479
in and talk about the animistic age, and if it's

1344
01:22:46,520 --> 01:22:50,479
something that somehow you can see from outside like this,

1345
01:22:52,039 --> 01:22:55,680
how can I say this? It's like, we don't know

1346
01:22:56,079 --> 01:23:01,960
much about animistic religions because we're not animistic religions. We're

1347
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:05,560
always interpreting animistic religions from the place where we are,

1348
01:23:06,319 --> 01:23:08,319
and so it's a very to me. It's always trans

1349
01:23:08,439 --> 01:23:11,439
like do you know the secret traditions of the Shamans?

1350
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:16,720
Where you read the text that some European went out

1351
01:23:16,760 --> 01:23:20,159
into Tibet and wrote some texts based on what they

1352
01:23:20,239 --> 01:23:24,039
encountered there were you initiated, right? Did they bring you

1353
01:23:24,079 --> 01:23:26,079
into the secret of secrets? Did they tell you what

1354
01:23:26,119 --> 01:23:28,560
their secret traditions? Are. No, they didn't. You don't know them.

1355
01:23:28,840 --> 01:23:31,279
And so I'm not saying that that that the comment

1356
01:23:31,359 --> 01:23:34,239
is true or false. I'm saying that you really know

1357
01:23:34,399 --> 01:23:37,479
less about these traditions than you think you do, because

1358
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:39,880
the way you know about something is not about it's

1359
01:23:39,920 --> 01:23:42,760
not by studying it from the outside, but it's about

1360
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:45,960
it's about encountering it and living it from the inside.

1361
01:23:47,039 --> 01:23:50,079
And those that are initiated into the higher mysteries, they're

1362
01:23:50,119 --> 01:23:52,640
not supposed to talk about it anyways, so they're not

1363
01:23:52,680 --> 01:23:55,680
going to tell you. So even if a scholar was

1364
01:23:56,359 --> 01:24:00,159
at some point maybe initiated into the higher mysteries, they

1365
01:24:00,159 --> 01:24:02,000
shouldn't tell you. And if they tell you, it means

1366
01:24:02,039 --> 01:24:05,000
they probably weren't initiated, then they're bullshitting it, right. This

1367
01:24:05,119 --> 01:24:07,560
is true, Like even of the Elusinian mysteries. Everybody talks

1368
01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:09,880
about the Elucenian mysty because if they know what they are,

1369
01:24:10,079 --> 01:24:12,239
it's like that was a pretty awesome thing, because no

1370
01:24:12,319 --> 01:24:17,239
one ever told anybody what happened there, right, And so

1371
01:24:17,279 --> 01:24:21,600
it's really important to understand that to understand this. Anyways,

1372
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:22,680
I'm sorry, I don't want to I don't want to

1373
01:24:22,680 --> 01:24:25,079
go off on this person, but it's really just important

1374
01:24:25,079 --> 01:24:30,239
to understand the implications of these embodied patterns and how

1375
01:24:30,319 --> 01:24:32,720
it is that every time we pretend that we can

1376
01:24:32,760 --> 01:24:37,039
stand above them and just analyze them, that we're we're

1377
01:24:37,199 --> 01:24:40,319
we're I think we're deluding ourselves. And so coming back

1378
01:24:40,319 --> 01:24:44,840
to Heaven and Earth, how can I say this, Like

1379
01:24:45,159 --> 01:24:48,640
I think that heaven and Earth is a universal pattern,

1380
01:24:48,840 --> 01:24:51,880
doesn't mean that there maybe aren't other ways of explaining

1381
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:57,199
that same duality or that same relationship. And also it's

1382
01:24:57,199 --> 01:24:58,800
the same, it's the same, it's the same thing. Like,

1383
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:02,520
it's the same problem. Like these animistic cultures that were

1384
01:25:02,520 --> 01:25:05,239
there before the actual age, you don't know anything about them,

1385
01:25:07,279 --> 01:25:10,560
You have no way of encountering them. And the ones

1386
01:25:10,600 --> 01:25:13,199
you encounter now, the idea that they're the same as

1387
01:25:13,239 --> 01:25:15,199
the ones that were there before the actual age is

1388
01:25:15,239 --> 01:25:21,560
also it's all kind of weird scientific delusions people give themselves. Sorry,

1389
01:25:22,119 --> 01:25:23,520
sorry to ever ask a question. I didn't mean to

1390
01:25:23,600 --> 01:25:25,720
kind of go off, but these are sometimes these things

1391
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:28,279
I get itchy about them.

1392
01:25:28,359 --> 01:25:32,079
Speaker 2: Okay, someone is asking what is the meaning of the

1393
01:25:32,119 --> 01:25:35,359
God calling the human very good versus calling the other

1394
01:25:35,479 --> 01:25:36,479
things only good?

1395
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:41,960
Speaker 1: And that's very It's super interesting because there's there's even

1396
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:43,840
a day where God doesn't say that it was good.

1397
01:25:43,880 --> 01:25:47,239
By the way, people will always forget that when God

1398
01:25:47,279 --> 01:25:49,279
separates the waters, he doesn't say that it was good.

1399
01:25:50,239 --> 01:25:51,600
And so, I mean, I think that's what it is.

1400
01:25:51,640 --> 01:25:55,560
It's that in a way, the human being participates in

1401
01:25:55,600 --> 01:25:57,920
the pattern of the good in us way similar to

1402
01:25:57,960 --> 01:25:59,920
the way God participates in the pattern of the good.

1403
01:26:00,359 --> 01:26:03,319
That is, the human being can do good and can

1404
01:26:03,640 --> 01:26:07,960
recognize good right and can participate in the good, whereas

1405
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:14,439
the other beings less so, not completely, not completely absent

1406
01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:16,840
of it, but less so. And so I think that

1407
01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:20,880
all living creatures participate in the good and participating God ultimately.

1408
01:26:21,199 --> 01:26:24,880
But it's just a question of hierarchy and embedded embedded patterns.

1409
01:26:24,920 --> 01:26:31,079
Speaker 4: You could say, there's a psychological observation in terms of

1410
01:26:31,119 --> 01:26:36,439
psychological work, how out of the infinite complexity of interpretations,

1411
01:26:37,079 --> 01:26:41,640
certain interpretations of experience have been offered to us to

1412
01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:45,960
stay inside the group we accept defensively ursus.

1413
01:26:46,039 --> 01:26:50,560
Speaker 2: How can how we can seek out our intuited other

1414
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:55,199
patterns in our experience create a new reality for ourselves?

1415
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:05,600
Speaker 1: Okay, I would say, okay, let's let's say, let's see

1416
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:10,640
this way that the patterns of specific groups, they are

1417
01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:15,640
always limited. They're limited by their limitation. They're limited by

1418
01:27:15,680 --> 01:27:19,399
the fact that they embody the patterns in a specific context.

1419
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:24,000
So because they do so, they will always be somewhat faulty.

1420
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:28,319
They won't be perfect because they're not right. They they're

1421
01:27:28,359 --> 01:27:31,000
they're they're somewhat lower on the mountain of meaning, you

1422
01:27:31,039 --> 01:27:35,960
could say, and so. But ultimately, if you're attentive, the

1423
01:27:36,039 --> 01:27:38,800
idea is that within those smaller patterns, you're able to

1424
01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:43,800
intuit higher patterns and all and hopefully participate in things

1425
01:27:43,840 --> 01:27:47,439
which lead you into higher patterns. So if you're let's

1426
01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:49,800
give you an example, like if if you're part of

1427
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:54,079
a group of of of of addicts. Let's say, right,

1428
01:27:54,119 --> 01:27:55,920
you hang out with a bunch of coke heads or

1429
01:27:56,279 --> 01:27:59,000
people who take care win. So obviously you're in a

1430
01:27:59,119 --> 01:28:03,159
there's something in that pattern which is true, right, There's

1431
01:28:03,159 --> 01:28:05,239
something in that pattern which binds you together in a

1432
01:28:05,279 --> 01:28:09,039
way towards the tellos, towards the reason. There's also something

1433
01:28:09,039 --> 01:28:13,319
in that pattern which is leading you into a breakdown

1434
01:28:13,359 --> 01:28:18,119
of yourself. But it still has something and so hopefully

1435
01:28:18,199 --> 01:28:21,279
that's something, right, that capacity to bind together with others

1436
01:28:21,520 --> 01:28:25,079
in a kind of communion that is ultimately what should

1437
01:28:25,159 --> 01:28:28,159
lead you up towards a better version of that pattern,

1438
01:28:28,720 --> 01:28:30,520
right towards instead of hanging out with a bunch of

1439
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:33,000
coke heads. Right, you hang out with some people who

1440
01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:35,560
play sports, or hang out with people are interested in cars,

1441
01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:37,920
or people are interested in this. But there is a

1442
01:28:37,920 --> 01:28:40,760
way in which even in the lowest versions of these,

1443
01:28:41,079 --> 01:28:44,640
there's always something for it to even exist that has

1444
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:48,319
to kind of participate. Now, I would be wary about

1445
01:28:48,760 --> 01:28:53,439
the danger of thinking, the danger of seeing novelty as

1446
01:28:53,479 --> 01:28:56,520
a value in itself, because this is something which we've

1447
01:28:56,560 --> 01:28:59,760
seen very very much in the modern world, which is

1448
01:28:59,840 --> 01:29:06,359
we value novelty as a novelty is novelty is neutral. Right,

1449
01:29:06,399 --> 01:29:09,279
some novelties are good and some novelties are bad. And

1450
01:29:09,319 --> 01:29:13,680
so we shouldn't seek out new patterns just because they're new.

1451
01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:18,359
If we seek new patterns or better patterns, it's because

1452
01:29:18,359 --> 01:29:21,840
they're better, better in the sense that they they bring

1453
01:29:21,920 --> 01:29:24,640
us closer to something which is a healthy mixture of

1454
01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:29,479
this healthy balance of the patterning and the multiplicity. Right,

1455
01:29:29,520 --> 01:29:32,680
it's this incarnational principle. If you kind of if you're

1456
01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:34,359
not careful, it's true you can move too high and

1457
01:29:34,359 --> 01:29:37,000
go into tyrannical systems. If you move too low, then

1458
01:29:37,039 --> 01:29:40,880
you fall into kind of anarchic, chaotic, chaotic realities.

1459
01:29:43,680 --> 01:29:47,720
Speaker 2: Someone is commenting that your proposition at the beginning of

1460
01:29:47,760 --> 01:29:50,359
the talk that intelligence is necessary for the world to

1461
01:29:50,439 --> 01:29:55,840
unfold reminds them of you recounting in memory, dreams, reflection,

1462
01:29:56,239 --> 01:29:59,560
standing over in African Vista and having the feeling is

1463
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:03,880
the fir but the first consciousness. So I ever have

1464
01:30:04,119 --> 01:30:05,239
witness such a thing?

1465
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:13,039
Speaker 1: Hmm, yeah, I mean, there's definitely there's there's an aspect

1466
01:30:13,079 --> 01:30:18,399
of potential or encountering the strange, which is which is

1467
01:30:18,520 --> 01:30:23,600
very important, because there's an aspect of surprise and wonder

1468
01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:26,600
which comes with encountering that which we don't know, which

1469
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:29,920
is also part of the pattern of reality. And so

1470
01:30:29,960 --> 01:30:34,319
there's an idea, right in ancient stories that there are

1471
01:30:34,399 --> 01:30:37,239
treasures hidden in the deep, right, that there are treasures

1472
01:30:37,279 --> 01:30:40,920
hidden in the outside, there are treasures being guarded by monsters.

1473
01:30:41,279 --> 01:30:43,720
And so there's a sense in which moving out into

1474
01:30:43,760 --> 01:30:47,600
potentiality is also a way in which to kind of

1475
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:52,319
discover these these pearls, right, these secrets, these precious stones,

1476
01:30:52,359 --> 01:30:55,520
these gems that are kind of hidden in in the unknown.

1477
01:30:56,000 --> 01:30:58,039
So that's definitely part of the pattern as well.

1478
01:31:01,439 --> 01:31:03,960
Speaker 2: I think we have another question by Jordan.

1479
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:08,720
Speaker 3: Actually it's a question from Tammy, so I'll let her

1480
01:31:08,760 --> 01:31:09,119
ask it.

1481
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:19,159
Speaker 1: How did Darwin bring Plato back? Because by coming back

1482
01:31:19,159 --> 01:31:24,920
into the world of biology, he inevitably brought back purpose

1483
01:31:25,319 --> 01:31:29,159
driven action or selection is the best way to understand it.

1484
01:31:29,439 --> 01:31:29,640
Speaker 3: Right.

1485
01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:32,560
Speaker 1: He brought back the idea of selection, and selection is

1486
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:37,680
not chaos, right, Selection is not random. Selection is purpose oriented,

1487
01:31:37,720 --> 01:31:42,159
and it's purpose oriented towards the perpetuation of the seed,

1488
01:31:42,600 --> 01:31:44,199
the perpetuation of the identity.

1489
01:31:44,680 --> 01:31:47,600
Speaker 3: And so this is the argument that I've been trying

1490
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:51,279
to put forth with Sam Harrison, Richard Dawkins. It's like, you, guys,

1491
01:31:51,319 --> 01:31:54,479
there's a big contradiction here between Darwin and Newton or

1492
01:31:54,520 --> 01:31:56,760
the way we look at Newton. It's like, this is

1493
01:31:56,800 --> 01:32:01,520
a big problem. So it's a surprise. It's like it's

1494
01:32:01,520 --> 01:32:02,399
a it's a surprise.

1495
01:32:02,479 --> 01:32:05,840
Speaker 1: I think that nobody kind of expected and nobody necessarily

1496
01:32:05,880 --> 01:32:09,279
framed it completely that way. But it did end up

1497
01:32:09,319 --> 01:32:14,399
bringing back the idea of quality back into the back

1498
01:32:14,439 --> 01:32:18,000
into the picture. Because you you choose for a reason,

1499
01:32:18,479 --> 01:32:21,680
and the reason is something which is closer to your

1500
01:32:21,800 --> 01:32:24,279
own the perpetuation of your own identity.

1501
01:32:25,000 --> 01:32:28,920
Speaker 3: Uh, and it's like crafted by evolutionary forces, and so

1502
01:32:29,119 --> 01:32:32,880
meaning itself is the consequence of the evolutionary process. And

1503
01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:37,600
how that tangles up with the like the theological perspective

1504
01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:42,279
that you've brought to bear today, that's an incredibly complicated

1505
01:32:42,319 --> 01:32:45,680
and difficult problem. But as you said, God calls the

1506
01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:47,560
earth to manifest its potential.

1507
01:32:48,560 --> 01:32:52,359
Speaker 1: So yeah, and so you could you could How can

1508
01:32:52,399 --> 01:32:53,840
I say this? It's like, so you can see it

1509
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:56,840
bottom up, which is I mean, I've been experience, I've

1510
01:32:56,840 --> 01:32:59,520
been expressing it more bottom up recently, just because people

1511
01:32:59,640 --> 01:33:03,680
are are kind of scientists scientifically minded. Did but you

1512
01:33:03,720 --> 01:33:06,279
can also you can see it completely top down, like

1513
01:33:06,319 --> 01:33:09,039
you can see it as like, like I was trying

1514
01:33:09,039 --> 01:33:14,319
to explain to you, as these the evolutionary process of

1515
01:33:14,359 --> 01:33:19,920
maintaining your identity is a reflection of a deeper pattern,

1516
01:33:20,520 --> 01:33:24,239
which is a cosmic pattern of how the world actually unfolds.

1517
01:33:24,880 --> 01:33:28,319
So it's not that it's not necessarily that evolutionary process

1518
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:32,640
brought about this. It's that the reason why evolutionary processes

1519
01:33:33,319 --> 01:33:34,920
work the way they do and do what they do

1520
01:33:35,039 --> 01:33:40,880
is because they're they're functioning within a larger system. Yes,

1521
01:33:41,840 --> 01:33:44,359
they're imaging, they're manifesting the way the world works.

1522
01:33:44,680 --> 01:33:47,279
Speaker 3: So that's how the world what discussion of subdue starts

1523
01:33:47,319 --> 01:33:51,399
to become so relevant because as creatures make their choices

1524
01:33:51,479 --> 01:33:53,800
and live or die by them, what they are in

1525
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:57,720
fact doing is the spiritual process of subduing. And if

1526
01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:00,279
they do it improperly, then they perish.

1527
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:04,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And so so there's an image, like we

1528
01:34:04,520 --> 01:34:06,399
were talking about the idea of a man at the outset,

1529
01:34:06,479 --> 01:34:10,359
you know, and so this is this is represented in iconography,

1530
01:34:10,439 --> 01:34:14,159
for example, as the image of Christ, Jesus Christ, human,

1531
01:34:14,279 --> 01:34:17,600
Jesus Christ creating the world, which is just like for people,

1532
01:34:17,640 --> 01:34:19,680
it just freaks them out because like, how does this work?

1533
01:34:19,720 --> 01:34:22,439
How is this possible? But that's that's the that's the

1534
01:34:22,640 --> 01:34:28,239
that's the understanding. There is a manner in which how

1535
01:34:28,239 --> 01:34:30,399
can I say this? And there's a manner in which,

1536
01:34:31,119 --> 01:34:34,520
just like we have this Christian idea that Christ acts

1537
01:34:34,560 --> 01:34:37,720
as an axis which transforms the past and the present,

1538
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:39,800
let's say, which kind of acts as this, this this

1539
01:34:40,039 --> 01:34:43,199
central axis, you could say that intelligence, as it manifests

1540
01:34:43,239 --> 01:34:46,560
itself in the world, does the same that is the

1541
01:34:46,640 --> 01:34:52,079
human person. Human intelligence goes back into the past and

1542
01:34:52,159 --> 01:34:54,000
makes sense of it, and goes into the future and

1543
01:34:54,039 --> 01:34:55,800
makes sense of it. And so you could say that

1544
01:34:57,000 --> 01:35:01,479
intelligence is at the outset the thing don't exist outside

1545
01:35:01,520 --> 01:35:05,600
of this capacity to contain them in consciousness and so consciousness,

1546
01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:09,840
so the world is born in consciousness, and the past

1547
01:35:09,840 --> 01:35:12,640
as well. The past is born in consciousness too. So

1548
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:15,359
all those those those processes that people try to understand,

1549
01:35:15,399 --> 01:35:17,520
all these all the Big Bang and all this stuff,

1550
01:35:19,000 --> 01:35:22,039
it's still born in man like, it's still born in consciousness.

1551
01:35:23,119 --> 01:35:27,319
So the real origin is not the Big Bang. This

1552
01:35:27,399 --> 01:35:29,439
is gonna be the weirdest thing you're gonna understand. The

1553
01:35:29,479 --> 01:35:34,760
real origin is the intelligence which is able to even

1554
01:35:34,800 --> 01:35:37,199
perceive the Big Bang or see it as a patterns

1555
01:35:37,560 --> 01:35:39,920
as not just a quantum field which never changes. It's

1556
01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:44,880
like perceiving change, transformation, identity, participating it. Like, that's the

1557
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:48,199
origin of reality. So the description in Genesis, it's like,

1558
01:35:48,399 --> 01:35:50,199
I'm trying to help you see that it is an

1559
01:35:50,239 --> 01:35:54,800
actual description of the origin of the world. It's not

1560
01:35:54,840 --> 01:35:56,960
a metaphor like in the way that we want to

1561
01:35:56,960 --> 01:35:59,279
think about it. It's not just a fairy tale which

1562
01:35:59,279 --> 01:36:01,720
is helping us under I thinks we don't understand. It

1563
01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:05,439
is describing the manner in which reality originates, and it

1564
01:36:05,439 --> 01:36:11,399
originates in meaning then phenomena, not phenomena, phenomena first as

1565
01:36:11,439 --> 01:36:14,399
a puzzle, right right. I talked about that like it's

1566
01:36:14,560 --> 01:36:17,600
potential that bubbles up and calls to be answered, and

1567
01:36:17,640 --> 01:36:20,039
then meaning which comes down. So you can see the

1568
01:36:20,079 --> 01:36:23,840
same from every single all scientific theory is like that.

1569
01:36:23,880 --> 01:36:26,760
It's like something presents itself as a puzzle and you're like,

1570
01:36:26,800 --> 01:36:29,960
what is that? And then here comes the logos, the seed,

1571
01:36:30,000 --> 01:36:34,199
which comes in and patterns it or identifies it, judges it,

1572
01:36:34,359 --> 01:36:36,800
separates it from other things in the way that happens

1573
01:36:36,800 --> 01:36:38,439
in the first chapter of Genesis.

1574
01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:45,680
Speaker 2: Okay, there's two more psychological questions. I'm going to tell

1575
01:36:45,680 --> 01:36:49,359
them both together because I think they are linked, and Jordan,

1576
01:36:49,439 --> 01:36:51,840
you may also have something to contribute to that one.

1577
01:36:53,119 --> 01:36:56,279
How would you work with a problem of inclusive exclusive

1578
01:36:56,359 --> 01:37:02,039
categories in these times? Projections scapegoat? And the other question

1579
01:37:02,199 --> 01:37:05,760
that I think is related, where do the movements of

1580
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:09,159
cancer culture or black lives matter or fit for? How

1581
01:37:09,199 --> 01:37:12,960
to make sense of these movements into this intelligence model?

1582
01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:16,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, so one of the things. One of the things

1583
01:37:16,479 --> 01:37:19,399
we're seeing is we're seeing we're seeing out of control

1584
01:37:19,560 --> 01:37:23,119
versions of this identification system or the system of communion.

1585
01:37:25,680 --> 01:37:28,720
The way in which reality works is fractal, and so

1586
01:37:30,119 --> 01:37:34,399
communities or identities embed themselves in each other. That's how

1587
01:37:34,439 --> 01:37:36,600
it that's how it works. And so in a normal

1588
01:37:36,680 --> 01:37:41,800
kind of traditional world, you can be a family in

1589
01:37:41,840 --> 01:37:45,640
a neighborhood, in a community, right in a nation, in

1590
01:37:45,680 --> 01:37:48,920
a church, and it's like it's all embedded. And you

1591
01:37:48,920 --> 01:37:51,640
can also participate in all these different identities. You can

1592
01:37:52,119 --> 01:37:53,520
be in a club, or you can be in this

1593
01:37:53,640 --> 01:37:55,560
and that, and so it all kind of works together.

1594
01:37:56,600 --> 01:38:00,159
So one of the problems we're having right now is that,

1595
01:38:02,239 --> 01:38:06,880
let's sake, kind of woke culture has understood the problem

1596
01:38:06,960 --> 01:38:09,840
of identity, right, they understand it, They understand the problem

1597
01:38:10,199 --> 01:38:14,319
of exclusion. But the answer they give is that they

1598
01:38:14,479 --> 01:38:21,199
want to account for everything. They want everything to fit. Now,

1599
01:38:21,239 --> 01:38:24,800
the problem is that that doesn't it's impossible. It's an

1600
01:38:24,800 --> 01:38:28,119
impossible and it's even a dangerous thing. And there are

1601
01:38:28,239 --> 01:38:31,079
a lot of ancient traditions which help you understand that. So,

1602
01:38:31,159 --> 01:38:34,159
for example, like you have the idea in Jewish law

1603
01:38:34,159 --> 01:38:36,000
that you have to leave a fringe on your in vestment,

1604
01:38:36,760 --> 01:38:38,560
or you have to leave the corners of the field

1605
01:38:38,840 --> 01:38:43,880
untilled for the strangers. All of these patterns are there

1606
01:38:43,960 --> 01:38:48,600
to manifest the fact that you can't have a system

1607
01:38:48,640 --> 01:38:52,039
which is both coherent and complete at the same time.

1608
01:38:52,359 --> 01:38:54,600
You can't those two things.

1609
01:38:55,239 --> 01:38:58,159
Speaker 3: Let me interrupt just for a second, or well, the

1610
01:38:58,239 --> 01:39:03,159
ziggarette answers that question too, because people can be included

1611
01:39:03,199 --> 01:39:05,880
at a higher level of unity and excluded at a lower,

1612
01:39:06,079 --> 01:39:09,319
and so part of this is conceptual confusion. It's like

1613
01:39:09,399 --> 01:39:13,720
the problem of category is the problem of inclusion and exclusion,

1614
01:39:13,920 --> 01:39:17,039
and exclusion can lead to demonization very easily, and that's

1615
01:39:17,039 --> 01:39:21,520
a big problem, a fundamental problem. But the problem that

1616
01:39:21,640 --> 01:39:25,119
you're talking about that's manifesting socially as a consequence of

1617
01:39:25,159 --> 01:39:28,479
this lack of understanding of the hierarchy of value, so

1618
01:39:28,520 --> 01:39:32,199
that the people who are pushing diversity, inclusivity and equity

1619
01:39:32,239 --> 01:39:37,600
are saying something like, look, we're all divinely human, and

1620
01:39:37,640 --> 01:39:39,880
you object to that by saying, well, yes, but we

1621
01:39:39,920 --> 01:39:43,800
still need to differentiate ourselves into specialized categories. And we

1622
01:39:43,880 --> 01:39:46,159
have to think through that very carefully so that we

1623
01:39:46,199 --> 01:39:47,640
subdue things properly.

1624
01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:52,840
Speaker 1: Oh exactly, and so what's happened. And so what's happening

1625
01:39:52,840 --> 01:39:58,359
is that people want to make inclusivity the only value,

1626
01:39:59,159 --> 01:40:04,800
really value because of the problem of exclusion. And so

1627
01:40:04,880 --> 01:40:08,119
what happens and this is this is what I'm going

1628
01:40:08,159 --> 01:40:10,479
to say is going to be seem radical to some,

1629
01:40:10,600 --> 01:40:13,239
but what we're seeing in this process is the actual

1630
01:40:13,319 --> 01:40:16,720
destruction of the world. And it's actually going to this

1631
01:40:16,800 --> 01:40:20,279
type of thinking, well, can actually destroy the world or

1632
01:40:20,880 --> 01:40:24,199
lead to absolute tyranny one or the other, or maybe

1633
01:40:24,199 --> 01:40:28,319
one because causing the other. Because so imagine you have

1634
01:40:28,960 --> 01:40:30,960
a basketball team, right, you have a basketball team. The

1635
01:40:31,000 --> 01:40:33,399
purpose of the team is to play basketball, to win

1636
01:40:33,439 --> 01:40:35,720
the championship, to do this. But then you say, no, no, no,

1637
01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:41,960
the purpose of the team is inclusion. Now, I imagine you

1638
01:40:42,000 --> 01:40:45,079
do that for every single level of reality and every

1639
01:40:45,119 --> 01:40:48,880
single communion. You say that the purpose of your group

1640
01:40:49,760 --> 01:40:55,000
is inclusion. So then you sacrifice the actual purpose of

1641
01:40:55,039 --> 01:40:56,720
the group, which is to play basketball, to win games

1642
01:40:56,760 --> 01:40:59,439
and everything for inclusion. And you end up doing that

1643
01:40:59,840 --> 01:41:04,079
in all aspects of reality, which you're devouring the purpose,

1644
01:41:04,239 --> 01:41:07,439
you're eating it. It's like it's becoming eaten by this thing.

1645
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:11,119
It's a monster. It's like it's the potential. It's like

1646
01:41:11,239 --> 01:41:14,680
potentiality is infinite. It's like you need to let all

1647
01:41:14,720 --> 01:41:17,800
this potential in. And so we were like, this is wrong, right,

1648
01:41:17,840 --> 01:41:20,359
you're excluding this potential, So we need to kind of

1649
01:41:21,239 --> 01:41:23,439
bring all this potential in. So what it does is

1650
01:41:23,479 --> 01:41:25,960
it's like a sea monster that comes up and devour

1651
01:41:26,039 --> 01:41:30,000
the and devours the identities, and so either it brings

1652
01:41:30,039 --> 01:41:33,560
about a kind of fragmentation and chaos and breakdown, but

1653
01:41:33,720 --> 01:41:36,399
often the world can't sustain itself that way, So what

1654
01:41:36,439 --> 01:41:38,840
it tends to do is it tends to lead to

1655
01:41:38,920 --> 01:41:43,600
lead into a kind of absolute identity. And it's weird

1656
01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:45,159
because the way it seems to be happening, it's just

1657
01:41:45,399 --> 01:41:47,920
the strangest thing is that it's like people are trying

1658
01:41:47,960 --> 01:41:52,399
to make inclusivity as the tyrannical system itself, which is

1659
01:41:52,439 --> 01:41:54,720
just seems like it's not possible, but that seems to

1660
01:41:54,760 --> 01:41:58,239
be what's happening is that inclusivity is going to turn

1661
01:41:58,279 --> 01:42:03,039
into tyranny. But what's important is that that gesture is

1662
01:42:03,079 --> 01:42:10,319
going to create something like absolute scapegoats. Absolute scapegoats, which

1663
01:42:10,359 --> 01:42:13,760
is that those that will refuse to participate in this

1664
01:42:14,680 --> 01:42:20,560
highest this weird principle of inclusivity will be absolutely excluded.

1665
01:42:20,760 --> 01:42:24,600
It's the only sin and it's an unforgivable sin, and

1666
01:42:24,640 --> 01:42:26,880
so we're moving kind of moving toward that, and it's

1667
01:42:26,920 --> 01:42:30,000
a yeah, it's kind of scary to see it, to

1668
01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:30,560
see it happen.

1669
01:42:31,359 --> 01:42:35,359
Speaker 3: Well, it's part of terminologically part of an assault on

1670
01:42:35,399 --> 01:42:38,000
the idea of the patriarchy. And that means that it's

1671
01:42:38,039 --> 01:42:42,479
the salt on the idea of pyramidal categorization itself, because

1672
01:42:42,840 --> 01:42:49,920
that's assimilated in the indiscriminate imagination with tyranny and the

1673
01:42:49,960 --> 01:42:54,840
identification of tyranny with the active categorization itself. And so

1674
01:42:55,119 --> 01:42:57,800
this is a deep struggle, right, So if the active

1675
01:42:57,840 --> 01:43:00,880
categorization is part of subduing and that's part of the

1676
01:43:00,880 --> 01:43:03,840
manifestation of the word, then the assault on that under

1677
01:43:03,880 --> 01:43:07,479
the guise of destructuring the patriarchy as an assault on

1678
01:43:07,560 --> 01:43:11,359
that principle itself and an identification of the principle of

1679
01:43:11,399 --> 01:43:14,479
discrimination with the principle of tyranny.

1680
01:43:15,239 --> 01:43:18,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the idea that, for example, like the

1681
01:43:18,319 --> 01:43:22,359
idea that the word discrimination has become an absolute evil,

1682
01:43:22,520 --> 01:43:26,720
is insane. It's an insane moment because you discriminate all

1683
01:43:26,800 --> 01:43:31,399
the time, you're constantly discriminating. Discriminating is like a normal

1684
01:43:31,760 --> 01:43:35,199
aspect of reality, which is that you're constantly judging, Like

1685
01:43:35,239 --> 01:43:39,359
you're constantly kind of discriminating whether or not this piece

1686
01:43:39,399 --> 01:43:42,159
of paper is the right one to to scribble on

1687
01:43:42,399 --> 01:43:45,079
or to print on. And you're discriminating whether or not

1688
01:43:45,119 --> 01:43:46,880
this is the right keyboard for my computer. It's like

1689
01:43:46,880 --> 01:43:50,119
you're constantly discriminating. Uh. And so, but the fact that

1690
01:43:50,159 --> 01:43:52,159
we've even made that word into.

1691
01:43:53,439 --> 01:43:57,239
Speaker 3: Jonathan, that God himself said that that capacity for discrimination

1692
01:43:57,479 --> 01:44:01,800
transformed good into very good. So never think of what

1693
01:44:01,840 --> 01:44:04,199
an assault on that means. It means an assault on

1694
01:44:04,239 --> 01:44:07,399
her ability to distinguish between that which is higher and

1695
01:44:07,479 --> 01:44:10,199
that which is lower. God.

1696
01:44:12,039 --> 01:44:14,119
Speaker 1: And so, but there's a way in which, like, it's

1697
01:44:14,119 --> 01:44:19,000
important to understand that there's a way in which this

1698
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:21,680
this system like that's say that, especially especially when you

1699
01:44:21,680 --> 01:44:23,520
see it in many versions. But in the Christian system,

1700
01:44:23,560 --> 01:44:25,199
the one I know the best, the way in which

1701
01:44:25,199 --> 01:44:27,279
she kind of heals itself or the way in which

1702
01:44:27,279 --> 01:44:31,279
it it it deals with this problem is that at

1703
01:44:31,319 --> 01:44:37,800
the very very top of the hierarchy, it's something like identity,

1704
01:44:37,920 --> 01:44:42,680
and then right above that identity is something like sacrifice.

1705
01:44:44,600 --> 01:44:48,720
That is, there's the pyramid is canotic, it's self emptying.

1706
01:44:49,439 --> 01:44:53,640
And so the highest thing, the highest thing is the king,

1707
01:44:54,840 --> 01:44:58,520
and then the very highest thing is the martyr. And

1708
01:44:58,520 --> 01:45:01,119
that's super important. It's super port to understand that, and

1709
01:45:01,159 --> 01:45:06,439
it's it's actually, it's actually, uh, it's technically accurate, right

1710
01:45:06,800 --> 01:45:09,560
in the sense that in order for the leg of

1711
01:45:09,560 --> 01:45:14,159
a chair to be part of the chair, it has

1712
01:45:14,279 --> 01:45:17,359
to sacrifice itself to the higher purpose. It has to

1713
01:45:18,079 --> 01:45:19,520
because it can't just be a leg of a chair.

1714
01:45:19,560 --> 01:45:22,279
It has to participate in the higher pattern. And so

1715
01:45:22,600 --> 01:45:25,920
the highest point of the pattern is the negation of identity.

1716
01:45:25,920 --> 01:45:27,800
And this is this is going to be this might

1717
01:45:27,840 --> 01:45:29,279
be a little hard for people to kind of get,

1718
01:45:29,279 --> 01:45:31,439
but it will help you understand a lot of Christian symbolism.

1719
01:45:31,840 --> 01:45:35,800
The highest point of identity is negation of identity. But

1720
01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:38,079
it doesn't The problem is that now what we have

1721
01:45:38,279 --> 01:45:42,199
is something like we don't realize that negation of identity

1722
01:45:42,600 --> 01:45:47,479
leads to identity. Then there's a there's an identity going

1723
01:45:47,560 --> 01:45:50,560
like this, and then there's a negation of identity below

1724
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:55,199
or a breakdown, and they're confusing the negation of identity

1725
01:45:55,239 --> 01:46:00,119
below with the negation of identity above, which is the

1726
01:46:00,119 --> 01:46:04,840
the capacity to sacrifice yourself for a higher good and

1727
01:46:05,640 --> 01:46:10,600
the capacity to sacrifice yourself for your own parts. And

1728
01:46:10,640 --> 01:46:14,800
so the chair also has to sacrifice its purity in

1729
01:46:14,920 --> 01:46:19,520
order to be able to exist, because all chairs have idiosyncrasies,

1730
01:46:20,119 --> 01:46:23,880
all chairs have aspects of it that aren't the pure chair,

1731
01:46:24,079 --> 01:46:27,520
or else the chairs couldn't exist. And so the identity

1732
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:32,399
of things sacrifice themselves above, they give themselves up. Right,

1733
01:46:32,439 --> 01:46:36,960
So I imagine you burn, you take your best cheap

1734
01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:38,840
and you give it up to God. Right, you give

1735
01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:40,680
it up to you give it up to God, or

1736
01:46:40,840 --> 01:46:43,800
you die as a martyr. But then there's also a

1737
01:46:43,840 --> 01:46:46,880
way in which that which is above then sacrifices itself

1738
01:46:47,119 --> 01:46:49,319
for that which is below. So that's one of the

1739
01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:53,079
ways in which we kind of deal with the problem

1740
01:46:53,319 --> 01:46:55,359
because it's so it's not like a kind of Nietzche

1741
01:46:55,439 --> 01:46:58,079
and will to power thing. It's not at all that. Right,

1742
01:46:58,880 --> 01:47:03,800
the real hierarchy ends in in self sacrifice. Right, That's

1743
01:47:03,800 --> 01:47:06,000
why the cross is at the top of the hill, Right,

1744
01:47:06,000 --> 01:47:09,079
That's why the mystery at the top of the hill is.

1745
01:47:09,560 --> 01:47:14,479
In mystical terms, we talk about the divine unknowing. Like

1746
01:47:14,560 --> 01:47:17,800
that you reach knowledge, you read nosis, and then when

1747
01:47:17,800 --> 01:47:21,640
you reach the top of nosis, the next step is unknowing.

1748
01:47:22,079 --> 01:47:24,920
It's actually a form of divine darkness. That's the highest

1749
01:47:24,920 --> 01:47:28,520
form of mystical mystical union. And this is how one

1750
01:47:28,600 --> 01:47:32,119
of the ways in which the system can can balance

1751
01:47:32,159 --> 01:47:35,319
itself out, because it is true that sometimes we struggle

1752
01:47:35,640 --> 01:47:38,720
to think that the highest thing is Okay, let's take

1753
01:47:38,800 --> 01:47:40,279
think of it this way. The highest thing of the

1754
01:47:40,319 --> 01:47:45,039
team is the quarterback that everybody loves and everybody worships.

1755
01:47:45,319 --> 01:47:47,760
And it's like, yeah, that is the top of the team.

1756
01:47:48,000 --> 01:47:50,039
But it's only the top of the team when the

1757
01:47:50,119 --> 01:47:54,199
quarterback sacrifices in self above to the purpose of the

1758
01:47:54,239 --> 01:47:58,399
team and sacrifices themselves below to make the other team

1759
01:47:58,439 --> 01:48:01,640
members participate in the team. If he doesn't do that,

1760
01:48:02,439 --> 01:48:05,359
then he's not going to be at the top. He's

1761
01:48:05,399 --> 01:48:08,119
going to be a tyrant. He's going to be he's

1762
01:48:08,159 --> 01:48:10,039
not going to be able to get the team to cohere.

1763
01:48:10,239 --> 01:48:12,359
All of these things are going to happen. And so

1764
01:48:12,439 --> 01:48:14,560
this is something which, like I said, it's maybe a

1765
01:48:14,600 --> 01:48:16,800
bit harder to understand. I really didn't expect to go

1766
01:48:16,840 --> 01:48:20,560
into this conversation. But it might be important to understand

1767
01:48:20,560 --> 01:48:24,680
the problem of identity and how it can be solved

1768
01:48:24,680 --> 01:48:26,119
and say through this, through this pattern.

1769
01:48:28,000 --> 01:48:31,920
Speaker 2: Okay, another question, maybe a big one. I don't know

1770
01:48:31,920 --> 01:48:35,920
if it can be summarized. What is the intelligence of dreams?

1771
01:48:36,159 --> 01:48:41,159
You suggested the dream is the purest expression of indeviduating intelligence.

1772
01:48:41,760 --> 01:48:44,800
This seems at odds with the orthodox view. Can't the

1773
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:46,479
two views be reconciled.

1774
01:48:48,199 --> 01:48:53,199
Speaker 1: It's very difficult. So the Orthodox view, or say, the

1775
01:48:53,199 --> 01:48:55,800
way that their fathers talk about dreams is that they

1776
01:48:55,840 --> 01:49:00,560
are mostly chaos, that they're mostly this low waters, this

1777
01:49:00,760 --> 01:49:03,239
kind of these these these uh, these moving waters, and

1778
01:49:03,279 --> 01:49:06,600
then you have to be careful not to pay too

1779
01:49:06,680 --> 01:49:10,560
much attention to them. But like I said, so there's

1780
01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:12,399
an interesting image for example, like let me give you

1781
01:49:12,399 --> 01:49:16,000
an image that you find in the Revelation. It says

1782
01:49:16,039 --> 01:49:19,079
in Revelation at the end of time, the sea will

1783
01:49:19,119 --> 01:49:23,439
become like glass, the sea will become like crystal. And

1784
01:49:23,479 --> 01:49:25,359
so that's the way you can kind of understand the

1785
01:49:25,359 --> 01:49:28,560
purpose of dreams is that it's this lower potential, that

1786
01:49:28,600 --> 01:49:31,079
it's kind of bubbling up right and and and so

1787
01:49:31,239 --> 01:49:33,800
manifest all your passions all your desires in a kind

1788
01:49:33,800 --> 01:49:36,560
of in a kind of wild way that sometimes it's illogical,

1789
01:49:36,560 --> 01:49:38,840
that it's kind of break down of logic. But then

1790
01:49:39,039 --> 01:49:43,560
once in a while, you could say, through divine providence

1791
01:49:43,640 --> 01:49:46,920
or through a schesis like that is through like let's say,

1792
01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:50,880
the mystic who will transform himself and will kind of

1793
01:49:50,920 --> 01:49:54,000
reduce their slavery to the passions. At some point this

1794
01:49:54,119 --> 01:49:58,399
potential can still itself, can become still, and then it

1795
01:49:58,439 --> 01:50:00,800
becomes a mirror, because it is a mirror in the

1796
01:50:00,800 --> 01:50:03,199
first place. Right, it's already a mirror, because that's how

1797
01:50:03,279 --> 01:50:05,560
that's where reality comes out of. Reality kind of comes

1798
01:50:05,560 --> 01:50:07,840
out of this potential. That's you know, the earth is

1799
01:50:07,880 --> 01:50:10,119
pulled out of the waters. All of this is true,

1800
01:50:10,439 --> 01:50:12,039
and so you can understand it that way. It's like

1801
01:50:12,039 --> 01:50:15,159
the chaos and this kind of kind of madness and

1802
01:50:15,239 --> 01:50:17,640
chaos on the edge out of which reality comes and

1803
01:50:17,640 --> 01:50:19,039
you have to be careful not to pay too much

1804
01:50:19,039 --> 01:50:21,319
attention to it because it can it can break you down.

1805
01:50:21,520 --> 01:50:25,079
But once in a while it becomes this pure mirror,

1806
01:50:25,119 --> 01:50:27,560
and then that's the vision, right, that's the that's the

1807
01:50:27,600 --> 01:50:32,600
mystics vision, that's the capacity to see reality more clearly.

1808
01:50:32,640 --> 01:50:38,359
Than you ever could, because suddenly it becomes a mirror

1809
01:50:38,359 --> 01:50:41,319
for the highest, highest things. So it's like, you know,

1810
01:50:41,640 --> 01:50:42,840
one of the things you might have seen when you

1811
01:50:42,920 --> 01:50:45,920
see the pattern of creation is that God is going

1812
01:50:45,960 --> 01:50:49,359
like this, right, so the waters, the earth, and then

1813
01:50:49,399 --> 01:50:52,000
the grass the stars, and then it's like it's kind

1814
01:50:52,000 --> 01:50:54,239
of moving in this way. So you can understand it

1815
01:50:54,279 --> 01:50:57,039
as these extremes, but you can also understand that the

1816
01:50:57,079 --> 01:51:00,399
lowest part can become a mirror for the highest part.

1817
01:51:01,279 --> 01:51:06,039
In the proper circumstance, it can become like this. That's

1818
01:51:06,039 --> 01:51:08,000
one of the things Christ does. By the way, Christ,

1819
01:51:08,039 --> 01:51:10,119
that's the if you want to understand the story of Jesus,

1820
01:51:10,479 --> 01:51:14,279
he goes to the bottom of reality and then kind

1821
01:51:14,279 --> 01:51:19,560
of transforms it into glory. A little tidbit on that.

1822
01:51:22,079 --> 01:51:25,119
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm aware of the time. I'm also aware we

1823
01:51:25,199 --> 01:51:28,920
could go on for hours and hours, So Jonathan, I

1824
01:51:28,960 --> 01:51:31,000
don't know how you're doing about time. You want to

1825
01:51:31,039 --> 01:51:33,560
take one last question, Yeah, if.

1826
01:51:33,439 --> 01:51:36,199
Speaker 1: You want, I'm totally fine. I went too long in

1827
01:51:36,239 --> 01:51:39,039
my presentation anyway, so I'm willing to accept more questions.

1828
01:51:40,199 --> 01:51:45,880
Speaker 2: Okay, if the theological teleological patterns of being, of being

1829
01:51:46,000 --> 01:51:49,600
constituted the realm of heaven. What then is the abode

1830
01:51:49,800 --> 01:51:54,039
of the individual human soul? In other words, what is

1831
01:51:54,159 --> 01:51:58,600
the relationship between the semi platonic conception you've presented here

1832
01:51:59,239 --> 01:52:02,760
understandard picient model of heaven as the domain of souls?

1833
01:52:03,680 --> 01:52:08,319
Speaker 1: And so there's they're the same. H That is that

1834
01:52:08,560 --> 01:52:13,880
your soul is your invisible part of you. It's the

1835
01:52:13,920 --> 01:52:17,640
it's the pattern, the patterning of your of your being. Right,

1836
01:52:17,680 --> 01:52:21,920
that's what your soul is. And there's a way and

1837
01:52:22,039 --> 01:52:24,520
this is this, there's a way in which that soul

1838
01:52:25,600 --> 01:52:28,600
in its very center. Right, you could say that there's there,

1839
01:52:28,720 --> 01:52:31,840
there's there's a more. There's a hierarchy of patterns in you,

1840
01:52:32,279 --> 01:52:35,000
and that the core of that hierarchy of pattern is God.

1841
01:52:36,039 --> 01:52:38,600
I don't have to tell you like that, that that

1842
01:52:38,640 --> 01:52:41,079
it's the spark of the divine. Is that the center

1843
01:52:41,119 --> 01:52:46,359
of every individual soul. That's the manner in which we

1844
01:52:46,439 --> 01:52:50,119
actually exist, is that we contain a spark of of

1845
01:52:50,159 --> 01:52:54,199
the divine, and that as we commune with each other,

1846
01:52:54,319 --> 01:52:59,319
as we love each other, then we become this embodied

1847
01:52:59,680 --> 01:53:06,159
pattern and the your your individual logos joins with the

1848
01:53:06,199 --> 01:53:11,159
divine logos and becomes the body of Christ. And so

1849
01:53:11,319 --> 01:53:13,239
that's the way that it works. And so you can

1850
01:53:13,319 --> 01:53:17,680
understand it in different ways. You can understand it as physically.

1851
01:53:17,960 --> 01:53:21,279
How can I say this that Christ as things like

1852
01:53:21,319 --> 01:53:23,159
you know you are, you are? You are called to

1853
01:53:23,199 --> 01:53:27,640
be like angels, and he says you are gods. And

1854
01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:34,960
what he means is that human beings can become patterns

1855
01:53:34,960 --> 01:53:38,960
for other human beings. We become models. That's why we

1856
01:53:39,000 --> 01:53:42,359
have models. We have models because humans can move up

1857
01:53:42,720 --> 01:53:46,640
into heaven. We can ascend into heaven, and then we

1858
01:53:46,720 --> 01:53:52,279
become patterns for others and we become patrons for others.

1859
01:53:53,199 --> 01:53:55,199
So we name a church after someone, we name a

1860
01:53:55,279 --> 01:53:59,760
city after someone, we name we name things after people,

1861
01:54:00,239 --> 01:54:05,239
because those beings are like gods. They become patterns for

1862
01:54:05,279 --> 01:54:10,000
the rest of us. And that's that's actually how reality works.

1863
01:54:10,000 --> 01:54:14,439
Like we reality doesn't hold together by ideas, even your nations,

1864
01:54:14,479 --> 01:54:17,640
they don't hold together by ideal. They hold together by

1865
01:54:17,760 --> 01:54:21,640
a succession of people who modeled behavior on which you

1866
01:54:22,159 --> 01:54:26,359
base yourself. And some of those rise up very high

1867
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:31,239
and become the patron saints of entire aspects of reality.

1868
01:54:31,840 --> 01:54:34,880
And that's how they become like angels. They become gods

1869
01:54:34,920 --> 01:54:39,039
in the Divine Council, right, they become co rulers with Christ.

1870
01:54:39,840 --> 01:54:42,920
All these things that Christ talks about, and these are

1871
01:54:42,920 --> 01:54:46,279
things that it can happen at a very small level. Right,

1872
01:54:46,359 --> 01:54:49,520
your own father, your own mother can image for you

1873
01:54:50,359 --> 01:54:53,760
how to be like, how to live and how to

1874
01:54:53,840 --> 01:54:57,199
be and then that can scale up, you know, all

1875
01:54:57,239 --> 01:54:59,640
the way to Saint Peter and Saint Paul, or the

1876
01:54:59,640 --> 01:55:03,359
Mother of Out or the saints which are venerated, as

1877
01:55:03,439 --> 01:55:07,119
as as being like in the Divine Council.

1878
01:55:12,119 --> 01:55:15,680
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for a great talk, and Jordan

1879
01:55:15,760 --> 01:55:18,079
and Tommy, thank you so much for your participation.

1880
01:55:21,359 --> 01:55:24,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, this has been great. I'm really happy because, let

1881
01:55:24,520 --> 01:55:26,760
me say this is that I was hoping that this

1882
01:55:26,760 --> 01:55:31,680
discussion would push me further in saying things in a

1883
01:55:31,720 --> 01:55:34,039
certain way and kind of bringing things together. And I'm

1884
01:55:34,119 --> 01:55:36,319
very grateful because I feel like it has, and so

1885
01:55:36,399 --> 01:55:38,960
I appreciate. I appreciate Joran, you pushed me, and I

1886
01:55:39,000 --> 01:55:41,880
think the questions were wonderful, and so it's it's actually

1887
01:55:41,880 --> 01:55:44,399
been a great opportunity for myself to just say, Okay,

1888
01:55:44,439 --> 01:55:47,119
I'm gonna try as hard as I can to really

1889
01:55:47,880 --> 01:55:49,560
bring this together. So thank you.

1890
01:55:51,520 --> 01:55:54,760
Speaker 2: Thank you everybody. Sorry for those who we didn't have

1891
01:55:54,840 --> 01:56:00,600
time to ask their questions, only so many questions.

1892
01:56:00,600 --> 01:56:03,840
Speaker 1: Sorry for time. I'll just jump in.

1893
01:56:04,239 --> 01:56:06,239
Speaker 5: If like me, you didn't have a chance to answer

1894
01:56:06,560 --> 01:56:10,479
to ask you a question, maybe you can attend another

1895
01:56:11,159 --> 01:56:14,800
Young Society of Montreal event and will form our group

1896
01:56:14,840 --> 01:56:18,479
with our purpose and continue in these rituals.

1897
01:56:20,960 --> 01:56:24,439
Speaker 1: Very good, I thank everybody. If you enjoy these videos

1898
01:56:24,439 --> 01:56:27,399
and podcasts, please go to the Symbolic world dot com

1899
01:56:27,399 --> 01:56:30,079
website and see how you can support what we're doing.

1900
01:56:30,359 --> 01:56:33,560
There are multiple subscriber tiers with perks. There are apparel

1901
01:56:33,600 --> 01:56:36,079
and books to purchase, So go to the Symbolic world

1902
01:56:36,119 --> 01:56:38,239
dot com and thank you for your support.