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<v Speaker 1>A father takes his young daughter to a house in

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<v Speaker 1>the dark, right in the dead of night exactly. The

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<v Speaker 1>neighborhood is completely silent, and the air is cold enough

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<v Speaker 1>that every time they exhale, it turns into the small

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<v Speaker 1>white cloud.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that freezing midwestern cold. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>And he walks this little girl up to a ground

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<v Speaker 1>floor window. But you know, this isn't just any house.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the house where her own mother lives.

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<v Speaker 2>Which is just it's immediately unsettling.

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<v Speaker 1>It really is. He looks down at his child and

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<v Speaker 1>tells her to put her hand over her mouth. He

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<v Speaker 1>actually instructs her to hold her breath, explaining that the

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<v Speaker 1>fog from her lungs will fog up the glass and

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<v Speaker 1>give them away.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow.

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<v Speaker 1>And then, and this is the part that just sticks

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<v Speaker 1>with you, he asks her to act as a human

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<v Speaker 1>surveillance camera. He wants her to peer through that cold

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<v Speaker 1>pane of glass to spy on the private life of

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<v Speaker 1>her own mother.

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<v Speaker 2>It sounds completely like the cold open of a like

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<v Speaker 2>a psychological thriller or something.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, you hear a sequence of events like

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<v Speaker 1>that and you think it's a script. But this is

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<v Speaker 1>not a script. That chilling scene was a documented reality

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<v Speaker 1>and a criminal complaint filed in the state of Wisconsin. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>it actually happened, It did, And just weeks after that

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<v Speaker 1>midnight visit to the window, the man that the mother

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<v Speaker 1>was dating, a man named Rosalio Gutierrez Junior, he would

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<v Speaker 1>just vanish from the face of the earth.

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<v Speaker 2>Vanish completely completely.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, to this day, nobody has ever been found,

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<v Speaker 1>not buried in a landfill, not concealed in a burn pit,

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<v Speaker 1>literally nowhere.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, it is that kind of total erasure

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<v Speaker 2>that Lee's investigators with almost nothing but shadows to chase exactly,

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<v Speaker 2>and that specific kind of erasure, that absence is what

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<v Speaker 2>makes this case so monumentally significant in the eyes of

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<v Speaker 2>the law.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely so welcome to our audio exploration today. We are

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<v Speaker 1>focusing entirely on the case of Zachariah Anderson. He was

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<v Speaker 1>an audio visual technician, a father of three who basically

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<v Speaker 1>orchestrated this massive campaign of obsession that turned his own

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<v Speaker 1>family into instruments of control.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, instruments is the perfect word for it.

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<v Speaker 1>Our source material today comes from a comprehensive true crime

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<v Speaker 1>documentary that meticulously tracks the timeline, the evidence, and the

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<v Speaker 1>resulting trials and Our mission for you, the listener, is

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<v Speaker 1>to unpack the absolute anatomy of a nobody homicide.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, which is incredibly rare.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly, we are analyzing only the fifth case of its

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<v Speaker 1>kind to ever be successfully prosecuted in the entire history

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<v Speaker 1>of Wisconsin.

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<v Speaker 2>Only the fifth that really puts it in perspective.

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<v Speaker 1>It does. So let's just let's unpack this right away,

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<v Speaker 1>because taking a murder case to trial without a victim's

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<v Speaker 1>body seems almost mathematically impossible to me.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, it is. It's a massive gamble.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Like, if you don't have a body, how do

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<v Speaker 1>you even prove a crime occurred in the first place?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you have just hit on like the single greatest

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<v Speaker 2>hurdle in the entire criminal justice system. Our entire framework

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<v Speaker 2>of Western law is terrified of prosecuting a murder without

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<v Speaker 2>a body.

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<v Speaker 1>Terrified. Why terrified?

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<v Speaker 2>Because of history. Honestly, there is this deeply rooted legal

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<v Speaker 2>concept called deleikti, which translates directly from Latin as the

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<v Speaker 2>body of the crime.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, the body of the crime.

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<v Speaker 2>Right now, in modern law, that doesn't just mean a

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<v Speaker 2>physical human corpse, you know, it means the foundational fact

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<v Speaker 2>that a crime actually happened, but historically it was quite literal, like.

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<v Speaker 1>They actually needed a body exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Back in the seventeenth century in England, there was this

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<v Speaker 2>famous incident known as the Campden Wonder. Three people were

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<v Speaker 2>executed for the murder of a man who had vanished. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>and a few years after they were hanged, the supposedly

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<v Speaker 2>murdered man casually returns to town.

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<v Speaker 1>Wait, you're kidding.

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<v Speaker 2>He was alive, completely alive. He had been abducted and

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<v Speaker 2>sold into slavery overseas, but he wasn't dead. So the

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<v Speaker 2>law executed three innocent people because they just assumed a

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<v Speaker 2>disappearance meant a murder.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, So the legal system fundamentally designed itself to

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<v Speaker 1>prevent that specific nightmare from ever happening again.

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<v Speaker 2>Precisely, the law built up these massive walls of burden

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<v Speaker 2>of proof. Usually, when a prosecutor stands in front of

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<v Speaker 2>a jury, they have a body to definitively prove a

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<v Speaker 2>death occurred.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, They have an autopsy exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>An autopsy provides a cause of death. They have a

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<v Speaker 2>weapon to show the mechanics of how it happened, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>and ideally they have an eyewitness to say who did it.

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<v Speaker 1>But in the case of Rosalio Guciroz Junior, they don't.

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<v Speaker 2>Have any of that, none of it. Investigators walked into

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<v Speaker 2>a situation with none of those three pillars. To prove

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<v Speaker 2>a murder without them required a prosecutor to convince twelve

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<v Speaker 2>highly skeptical jurors, like beyond a reasonable doubt that a

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<v Speaker 2>person did not simply walk away from their life.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, that they didn't just decide to disappear.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they have to prove that the victim didn't flee

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<v Speaker 2>a debt or run off to start a new life,

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<v Speaker 2>and they have to prove that this specific person sitting

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<v Speaker 2>at the defense table is the sole architect of their demise.

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<v Speaker 1>So the police are basically standing there with this massive

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<v Speaker 1>absence of evidence. Because they don't have Rosalio, they can't

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<v Speaker 1>perform that autopsy, no cause of death exactly, they can't

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<v Speaker 1>match a bullet to a gun or a blade to

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<v Speaker 1>a knife block. That missing piece fundamentally changes the entire

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<v Speaker 1>trajectory of the investigation.

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<v Speaker 2>It forces them to go in reverse.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, they can't work backward from the victim's body. They

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<v Speaker 1>have to work forward from the suspect's life, which is

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<v Speaker 1>so much harder it is, which begs the question, how

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<v Speaker 1>does a seemingly ordinary father, a guy with absolutely no

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<v Speaker 1>violent criminal record, end up at the center of such

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<v Speaker 1>a complex, calculated and successfully hidden crime.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, to understand the mechanics of this, we really have

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<v Speaker 2>to look closely at the contrasting lives of the two

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<v Speaker 2>men involved.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, let's do that. Let's start with the architect of

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<v Speaker 1>this tragedy, Zacharia Anderson. He was born around nineteen eighty,

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<v Speaker 1>raised in Port Washington, Wisconsin, Okay, and from his earliest

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<v Speaker 1>years his life was marked by a severe structural fracture.

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<v Speaker 1>His parents separated, his mother moved out of state to Texas,

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<v Speaker 1>his father remarried, and he grew up navigating this massive,

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<v Speaker 1>blended network of full half and step siblings, and.

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<v Speaker 2>They were stretched across two completely different geographical regions.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly Wisconsin and Texas.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know that lack of geographical and familial stabidity

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<v Speaker 2>early on, it's not just a background detail, it's a

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<v Speaker 2>critical psychological component, right, has shaped him absolutely. The source

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<v Speaker 2>material highlights this very striking event from his adolescence. He

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<v Speaker 2>actually moved to Texas as a teenager to try and

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<v Speaker 2>reconnect with his mother. He was looking for that anchor.

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<v Speaker 1>But it didn't work out.

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<v Speaker 2>No, the arrangement rapidly failed, and instead of flying back

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<v Speaker 2>or having a parent drive him, he ended up hitchhiking

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<v Speaker 2>all the way back to Wisconsin.

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<v Speaker 1>Wait, a teenager hitchhiking.

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<v Speaker 2>Alone, completely alone on the highways. I mean, think about

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<v Speaker 2>the developmental impact of that.

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<v Speaker 1>That is incredibly dangerous.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a profound dangerous journey for a kid to undertake

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<v Speaker 2>by himself. It speaks to a very early, very deep

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<v Speaker 2>seated need to find control and engineer his own.

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<v Speaker 1>Stability because the adults in his life had just failed

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<v Speaker 1>to provide it.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, when you have to rely entirely on yourself to

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<v Speaker 2>nap the gate across the country as a kid, you

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<v Speaker 2>develop a really rigid grip on your environment.

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<v Speaker 1>That makes a lot of sense. So he gets back

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<v Speaker 1>to Wisconsin, He manages to finish high school and eventually

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<v Speaker 1>earns an associate degree from a local technical college. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>and looking at his adult life, I kind of think

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<v Speaker 1>of him as a human Swiss army knife.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's a good way to put it.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. He builds his entire existence around technical manual problem

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<v Speaker 1>solving skills. He gets a job as an audio visual

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<v Speaker 1>maintenance technician at the very college he graduated from.

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<v Speaker 2>But he doesn't just stop with the nine to five.

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<v Speaker 1>No, he takes on demolition work. He does independent contracting

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<v Speaker 1>on the side. He helps his brother with these extensive

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<v Speaker 1>remodeling projects. His daily routine basically revolves around dismantling complex structures,

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<v Speaker 1>handling intricate electronics, running hidden wires, and this is crucial

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<v Speaker 1>cleaning up construction.

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<v Speaker 2>Debris, which becomes the precise focus of the investigation, right

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<v Speaker 2>because I mean, an audio visual technician doesn't just plug

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<v Speaker 2>in monitors. They understand how systems communicate silently in the background.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they know they hidden stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>They know how to route cables through walls where no

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<v Speaker 2>one will see them, how to place cameras from maximum

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<v Speaker 2>field of view, and how to operate digital interfaces that

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<v Speaker 2>track data. And the demolition side of things, well, a

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<v Speaker 2>demolition worker understands the physics of tearing something apart. They

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<v Speaker 2>know how to remove waste so thoroughly that you would

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<v Speaker 2>never even know a structure was there in the first place.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, I have to push back a little on that though,

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<v Speaker 1>because tearing down drywall and hauling away two by fours

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<v Speaker 1>in a dump truck is vastly different from erasing biological evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, how does remodeling a kitchen equate to committing

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<v Speaker 1>a perfectly clean murder.

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<v Speaker 2>That is a fantastic point of skepticism, and it's exactly

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<v Speaker 2>what a defense attorney would argue to a jury. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>But let's look at the actual mechanics of demolition and

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<v Speaker 2>contracting work. When you do heavy demolition, especially in occupied buildings,

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<v Speaker 2>you have to understand dust mitigation.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh interesting, Yeah, you.

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<v Speaker 2>Have to understand how to set up negative pressure environments

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<v Speaker 2>so particular matter doesn't spread to other rooms. You deal

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<v Speaker 2>with industrial grade chemical solvents.

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<v Speaker 1>All the time, right, You're constantly cleaning, and.

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<v Speaker 2>You know how to transport heavy, awkward, massive loads of

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<v Speaker 2>material out of tight spaces without damaging the surrounding hallways.

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<v Speaker 2>You know where the blind spots in building security are

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<v Speaker 2>because you have to haul materials in and out of

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<v Speaker 2>them every single day.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't even think about the security camera exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>These are not inherently sinister skills in a vacuum, but

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<v Speaker 2>if you apply that specific knowledge base to a dark purpose,

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<v Speaker 2>they represent the absolute perfect resume for someone trying to

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<v Speaker 2>monitor a target digitally. And subsequently erase a physical crime scene.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. Yeah, that makes total sense when you frame it

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<v Speaker 1>around the logistics of material transport and containment. It is

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<v Speaker 1>a terrifying application of everyday blue collar knowledge.

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<v Speaker 2>It really is.

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<v Speaker 1>Now we have to contrast that intensely controlled, dismantling focused

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<v Speaker 1>life with the victim. Rosalio Gutiras Junior.

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<v Speaker 2>Was known to everyone in his life as Pocho Pocho.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, he was also born in nineteen eighty, a lifelong

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<v Speaker 1>resident of Kenosha, Wisconsin. But his trajectory was incredibly grounded

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<v Speaker 1>in community building, very different vibe completely. He held degrees

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<v Speaker 1>in criminal justice and sociology. He spent time working for

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<v Speaker 1>the State Public Defender's office. He eventually transitioned into property

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<v Speaker 1>management and construction himself. But he was a deeply embedded,

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<v Speaker 1>active member of a local church congregation.

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<v Speaker 2>And a devoted father too.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, most importantly, he was a devoted father who coached

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<v Speaker 1>his kids in Little League and personally drove them to

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<v Speaker 1>their gymnastics practices.

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<v Speaker 2>The contrast is just dark, and there's a cruel irony

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<v Speaker 2>to Rosalo's life path here. How so, Well, here's a

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<v Speaker 2>man who dedicated his formal higher education to criminal justice

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<v Speaker 2>and sociology. Those are field explicitly focused on understanding the law,

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<v Speaker 2>projecting the vulnerable, and analyzing how human behavior impacts a

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<v Speaker 2>community structure.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he studied the very system that would later be looking.

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<v Speaker 2>For him exactly. People described him consistently as the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of guy who would literally interrupt his own schedule just

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<v Speaker 2>to help a stranger fix a flat tire on the

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<v Speaker 2>side of the road. He was a builder of social fabric.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a great way to describe him.

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<v Speaker 2>And yet this man who was so dedicated to the

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<v Speaker 2>health of his community becomes the victim of a crime

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<v Speaker 2>that tears a permanent, unresolvable whole right through it.

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<v Speaker 1>So you have these two wildly different men with entirely

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<v Speaker 1>different approaches to life, living in the same general region,

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<v Speaker 1>but in completely separate spheres.

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<v Speaker 2>Until those spheres violently collide exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>In the early spring of that fateful year, Zachariah Anderson

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<v Speaker 1>had been in an on and off relationship with a

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<v Speaker 1>woman named Sadie Beacham for roughly twelve.

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<v Speaker 2>Years long time.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they shared a home, they had three children together,

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<v Speaker 1>but the dynamic was really volatile. She alleged ongoing infidelity

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<v Speaker 1>and he struggled aggressively with the concept of separation.

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<v Speaker 2>He couldn't let go right.

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<v Speaker 1>By the end of the previous years, Sadie had decided

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<v Speaker 1>to sever the romantic tie for good. And then, as

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<v Speaker 1>the world was navigating the massive disruptions of the pandemic,

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<v Speaker 1>Sadie met Rosalio and it.

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<v Speaker 2>Was a new relationship. But it got serious fast.

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<v Speaker 1>It did. She integrated him into her life and introduced

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<v Speaker 1>him to her children, and Zachariah Anderson.

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<v Speaker 2>Noticed, of course he did.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, breakups happen every day. People move on,

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<v Speaker 1>blended families are formed. So how does a standard, albeit

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<v Speaker 1>emotionally difficult separation devolve into a highly calculated campaign of terror.

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<v Speaker 2>It doesn't happen overnight. It devolves through a very specific,

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<v Speaker 2>escalating timeline of coercive control. And to understand the trigger,

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<v Speaker 2>we have to look at the immense pressure cooker of

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<v Speaker 2>Anderson's life during that specific spring.

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<v Speaker 1>There's something else going on, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, the catalyst wasn't just the loss of his romantic relationship.

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<v Speaker 2>He was facing a massive life altering external crisis. He

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<v Speaker 2>had just been convicted in South Dakota for possessing over

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<v Speaker 2>ten pounds of marijuana ten pounds.

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<v Speaker 1>Ten pounds, that is not a minor recreational charge. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to picture what ten pounds of marijuana even

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<v Speaker 1>looks like. That's a trafficking volume, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>Precisely, ten pounds is a massive, bulky amount of narcotics

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<v Speaker 2>in South Dakota that carries severe felony weight. And he

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<v Speaker 2>had a formal sentencing date looming on the calendar for

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<v Speaker 2>late May.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. Okay, so the timing is everything it is.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's look at the psychology of a situation. You have

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<v Speaker 2>a man whose physical freedom is actively being threatened by

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<v Speaker 2>the state. He is experiencing a total catastrophic loss of

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<v Speaker 2>control in his legal and financial life.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, He's about to go to prison.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And precisely at the moment the walls are closing

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<v Speaker 2>in on his freedom, he realizes he has also lost

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<v Speaker 2>control over his family structure back home in Wisconsin.

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<v Speaker 1>That is a dangerous combination.

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<v Speaker 2>Incredibly dangerous. The psychological concept here is that when a

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<v Speaker 2>highly controlling individual loses agency in one major arena of

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<v Speaker 2>their life, they will often violently overcompensate by tightening their

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<v Speaker 2>grip on whatever they can still reach.

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<v Speaker 1>And the kids were what he could reach exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>They became the only things he felt he could still dominate.

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<v Speaker 1>So that external legal pressure is the spark that likes

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<v Speaker 1>the powder keg. Because just days after that drug conviction

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<v Speaker 1>in South Dakota, the digital and physical stocking of Sadian

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<v Speaker 1>Rosalio begins in Earnest.

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<v Speaker 2>It rams up so fast it does.

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<v Speaker 1>The source material details the purchase of two separate GPS

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<v Speaker 1>tracking devices. But Anderson didn't just log into his own

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<v Speaker 1>computer and buy them with his own credit card on

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<v Speaker 1>his own account.

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<v Speaker 2>No, he was way too careful for that right.

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00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:33.919
<v Speaker 1>He bought them through an online retail account that was

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<v Speaker 1>explicitly tied to his young daughter.

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<v Speaker 2>Which is a brilliant, if deeply manipulative layer of digital obfuscation.

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00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:46.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he is using his own child's digital footprint

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<v Speaker 2>to mask his surveillance purchases.

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<v Speaker 1>It's sickening.

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<v Speaker 2>It is because if law enforcement ever subpoenaed the purchase history,

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<v Speaker 2>they would initially see a child's account, not he is.

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<v Speaker 2>It is a profound crossing of boundaries, utilizing a miner

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<v Speaker 2>as a digital shield for illicit behavior.

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<v Speaker 1>And the escalation is just rapid from there. Shortly after

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<v Speaker 1>those trackers are purchased. Sadie wakes up in the middle

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<v Speaker 1>of the night her doorbell is ringing. She goes to

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<v Speaker 1>the window only to see a dark vehicle speeding.

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<v Speaker 2>Away into the night, just letting her know he's there.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly around that exact same time, Rosalio makes a disturbing discovery.

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<v Speaker 1>Personal papers, along with his vehicle registration are suddenly missing

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<v Speaker 1>from the interior of his car.

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<v Speaker 2>Someone was inside his vehicle.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, Sadie starts feeling this creeping, suffocating paranoia because Anderson

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<v Speaker 1>suddenly knows things he couldn't possibly know through normal conversation.

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<v Speaker 1>He knows what outfit she wore on a specific Tuesday.

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<v Speaker 1>He knows what she was doing inside the privacy of

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<v Speaker 1>her own living room.

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<v Speaker 2>That is terrifying.

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<v Speaker 1>And then the paranoia is completely validated. A burner phone

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<v Speaker 1>is found hidden beneath a child's booster seat inside Sadie's car. Oh, man,

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<v Speaker 1>I really want you, the listener, to just pause and

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<v Speaker 1>consider the physical logistics and audacity of this.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, think about what it takes to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>He didn't just slap a magnetic tracker onto the undercarriage

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<v Speaker 1>of her bumper while she was in a grocery store,

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00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:12.600
<v Speaker 1>he opened her car door, he reached into the exact

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00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:16.120
<v Speaker 1>physical space where his own child sits, lifted the safety seat,

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00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:19.240
<v Speaker 1>and planted a listening or tracking device underneath it to

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<v Speaker 1>monitor his ex partner.

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<v Speaker 2>The physical intrusion into the child space is staggering. And

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00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:28.279
<v Speaker 2>when that specific burner phone goes missing, when Sadie finds

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<v Speaker 2>it and removes it, his reaction is incredibly telling.

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<v Speaker 1>He didn't handle it well, did he?

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00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:35.799
<v Speaker 2>Not at all? He doesn't play it cool. He becomes

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<v Speaker 2>completely frantic. He is contacting her relentlessly, desperate to know

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<v Speaker 2>if she found a phone in her.

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<v Speaker 1>Car, because he lost his ear to the ground exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And when law enforcement eventually gets involved and questions him

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<v Speaker 2>about this specific device, his defense is astonishingly weak. He

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<v Speaker 2>claims to the police that the phone simply fill out

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<v Speaker 2>of his pocket while he was standing near her car.

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<v Speaker 1>That defies the laws of physics completely. I mean, a

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<v Speaker 1>burner phone doesn't just fall out of a pair of jeans,

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00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:07.799
<v Speaker 1>bounce through an open car door, navigate her on a seatbelt,

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<v Speaker 1>and wedge itself securely underneath the molded plastic of a

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<v Speaker 1>child's booster seat.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, It is a geographically impossible excuse, Yes, but the

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00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:19.799
<v Speaker 2>fact that he offered such a flimsy, illogical lie highlights

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<v Speaker 2>his absolute desperation.

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<v Speaker 1>He was panicking, he was.

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00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:25.079
<v Speaker 2>Caught red handed in the act of surveillance, and his

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00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:27.960
<v Speaker 2>need to maintain a grip on her movements completely overrode

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00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:30.720
<v Speaker 2>his ability to construct a believable alibi.

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00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:33.400
<v Speaker 1>Which brings us directly back to that harrowing scene we

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00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:37.319
<v Speaker 1>opened with the window incident. Because he wasn't just relying

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00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:41.079
<v Speaker 1>on electronics from big box retailers. He was weaponizing his

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<v Speaker 1>own flesh.

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<v Speaker 2>And blood using his daughter. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>He walks his young daughter up to the cold glass,

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00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:50.079
<v Speaker 1>tells her to cover her mouth so the condensation doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>alert the people inside, and forces her to spy on

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<v Speaker 1>her mother and Rosalo.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just so sad it is.

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<v Speaker 1>He had also previously handed the same child a phone

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<v Speaker 1>implicitly instructed her to hit record whenever her mother got

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<v Speaker 1>upset or argued. He even allegedly planted a recording device

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<v Speaker 1>near the air conditioning unit outside Sadie's house.

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<v Speaker 2>The AC unit trap.

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00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:12.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was trying to figure out how that would

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00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.400
<v Speaker 1>even work. Why an AC.

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00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:16.319
<v Speaker 2>Unit, Well, it has to do with the acoustics and

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00:18:16.359 --> 00:18:20.200
<v Speaker 2>airflow of an HVAC system. An air conditioning condenser unit

381
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:23.079
<v Speaker 2>sits outside, but it is connected to the dutch work

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00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.559
<v Speaker 2>inside the house. Okay, if you place a sensitive microphone

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<v Speaker 2>near the intake or the structural penetration with the lines

384
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:32.000
<v Speaker 2>go into the house, the physical duct work can actually

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<v Speaker 2>act like a megaphone.

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00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:33.480
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah.

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00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:36.160
<v Speaker 2>It carries the vibrational sounds of voices from inside the

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00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:39.880
<v Speaker 2>house out to the exterior. It's an old school, highly

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00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:44.559
<v Speaker 2>technical eavesdropping method, and it again points directly back to

390
00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:48.480
<v Speaker 2>his audio, visual and construction background. He understands how sound

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00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:50.400
<v Speaker 2>travels through a building's infrastructure.

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00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:52.640
<v Speaker 1>It's just so calculating, you know. When we look at

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00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.319
<v Speaker 1>this relentless pattern, the trackers, the ac audio traps, making

394
00:18:56.359 --> 00:18:58.599
<v Speaker 1>his kid hold her breath at a window, it is

395
00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:01.480
<v Speaker 1>incredibly tempting to reach for a clinical label.

396
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:03.119
<v Speaker 2>Sure people want to diagnose him.

397
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:07.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. You hear words like psychopath, sociopath, or a malignant

398
00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.960
<v Speaker 1>narcissist thrown around constantly in true crime media.

399
00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:12.119
<v Speaker 2>They do get thrown around, But we have to be

400
00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:16.400
<v Speaker 2>incredibly careful here. The source material is definitive on this point.

401
00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:20.480
<v Speaker 2>There are no public medical or psychiatric records offering a

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00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:25.079
<v Speaker 2>formal diagnosis for Zacharia Anderson. We cannot and ethically should

403
00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:28.759
<v Speaker 2>not give him a clinical armchair diagnosis from AFAR. Instead

404
00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:30.920
<v Speaker 2>of focusing on a medical label, we have to focus

405
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:33.200
<v Speaker 2>entirely on the mechanics of the behavior itself.

406
00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:35.359
<v Speaker 1>The behavior is loud enough exactly.

407
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:39.920
<v Speaker 2>This is a man who is entirely fundamentally unable to

408
00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:43.920
<v Speaker 2>tolerate losing the narrative of his family. He ceases to

409
00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:47.559
<v Speaker 2>be a former partner navigating the difficult emotional terrain of

410
00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:51.039
<v Speaker 2>a breakup. He shifts entirely into the role of a warden.

411
00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:51.759
<v Speaker 1>A warden.

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00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:55.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, he is actively policing her physical borders, he is

413
00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:59.960
<v Speaker 2>monitoring her digital communications, and he is conscripting their chilln

414
00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:02.039
<v Speaker 2>to act as his prison guards.

415
00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:05.799
<v Speaker 1>A warden. That is the perfect distillation of his behavior.

416
00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:08.880
<v Speaker 1>He even terrified a friend of Sadi's who occasionally babysat

417
00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:09.240
<v Speaker 1>the kids.

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00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:10.279
<v Speaker 2>Oh I remember this part.

419
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:12.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, This poor woman woke up in the middle of

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00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:15.640
<v Speaker 1>the night in Sadie's house to find Zachariah Anderson literally

421
00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:18.480
<v Speaker 1>looming over her in the pitch dark, demanding to know

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00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:19.599
<v Speaker 1>where Sadie.

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00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:20.640
<v Speaker 2>Was inside the house.

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00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Inside the house, The situation escalated to the point where

425
00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:26.839
<v Speaker 1>someone had to call for emergency help because his physical

426
00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:28.160
<v Speaker 1>presence was so threatening.

427
00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:29.839
<v Speaker 2>It's just escalating and escalating.

428
00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:33.440
<v Speaker 1>But here is the terrifying reality of coercive control. This

429
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:36.960
<v Speaker 1>pattern of escalating surveillance is constant tightening of the net.

430
00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:38.880
<v Speaker 1>It inevitably has to break.

431
00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:40.079
<v Speaker 2>It can't last forever.

432
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:44.039
<v Speaker 1>Exactly, you cannot maintain that high wire act of obsession

433
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:48.400
<v Speaker 1>without it eventually spilling over into a physical confrontation. The

434
00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:51.160
<v Speaker 1>watcher eventually has to step out of the shadows, and

435
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:54.599
<v Speaker 1>that causality brings the timeline to those fateful days in

436
00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:55.240
<v Speaker 1>mid May.

437
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:59.640
<v Speaker 2>The transition from surveillance to violence is almost always triggered

438
00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:01.319
<v Speaker 2>by a received loss at the target.

439
00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:04.440
<v Speaker 1>So let's carefully map out the last normal moments of

440
00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:08.160
<v Speaker 1>Roussalio Gatera's's life. It is a weekend in mid May.

441
00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:11.279
<v Speaker 1>He spends the daylight hours with Sadie and his kids.

442
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:12.200
<v Speaker 2>A totally normal day.

443
00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:15.440
<v Speaker 1>By all accounts, it is a perfectly normal, happy, uneventful day.

444
00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:18.000
<v Speaker 1>The next evening, he is back at his own apartment.

445
00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:20.119
<v Speaker 1>He speaks to a female friend on his cell phone.

446
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:24.119
<v Speaker 1>The call happens around eight point four nine pm eight.

447
00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:25.880
<v Speaker 2>Point four nine pm. That's the anchor point.

448
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:28.519
<v Speaker 1>Right during that call, he is alive, he is well,

449
00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:30.720
<v Speaker 1>he is relaxed, and he is rooted in his normal

450
00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:34.119
<v Speaker 1>evening routine. And then the timeline completely.

451
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:35.279
<v Speaker 2>Fractures right after that call.

452
00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:38.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, a neighbor who shares a wall in his apartment

453
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:43.200
<v Speaker 1>building recalls hearing a sudden, incredibly loud bang that night.

454
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:46.880
<v Speaker 1>They describe it to investigators as sounding like something heavy

455
00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:50.799
<v Speaker 1>and substantial being violently forced against the shared dry wall.

456
00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:55.720
<v Speaker 2>And this specific moment is where the timeline becomes incredibly fragile,

457
00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:01.039
<v Speaker 2>because it hinges on a tiny, almost imperceptible mistake of navigation.

458
00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:03.200
<v Speaker 1>You're talking about the other visitor.

459
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:07.640
<v Speaker 2>Yes, there was another woman, a woman named Narata Machias,

460
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:10.000
<v Speaker 2>who had made plans to meet up with Rosalio at

461
00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:13.160
<v Speaker 2>his apartment that very night, but when she drove to

462
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:15.920
<v Speaker 2>see him, it was dark. She was unfamiliar with the complex,

463
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:18.240
<v Speaker 2>and she went to the wrong apartment building by mistake, she.

464
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:20.640
<v Speaker 1>Was physically in the wrong place exactly. I want to

465
00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:22.480
<v Speaker 1>stop and look at the math of that mistake for

466
00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.400
<v Speaker 1>a second, because why does a woman knocking on the

467
00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:28.599
<v Speaker 1>wrong door matter so much to a murder investigation?

468
00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:32.880
<v Speaker 2>Because In a circumstantial case, timeline is absolutely everything. If

469
00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:35.200
<v Speaker 2>you don't have a body to determine a time of death,

470
00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:37.559
<v Speaker 2>you rely on the last known interactions.

471
00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:39.799
<v Speaker 1>Right, You need to lock down the minutes exactly.

472
00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:43.599
<v Speaker 2>If Mackias had gone to the Corets apartment, she might

473
00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:46.920
<v Speaker 2>have interrupted the crime. She might have seen Anderson, or

474
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:49.039
<v Speaker 2>she might have arrived and found the door open in

475
00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:52.279
<v Speaker 2>the scene bloody establishing an exact time of the event.

476
00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:52.920
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

477
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:55.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But because she went to the wrong building, her

478
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:58.400
<v Speaker 2>testimony about what she saw and heard and exactly when

479
00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:00.160
<v Speaker 2>she was there became.

480
00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:02.559
<v Speaker 1>Because she wasn't actually outside his door.

481
00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:05.400
<v Speaker 2>Right. If she says she arrived at nine pm and

482
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:08.640
<v Speaker 2>heard nothing, but the neighbor swears they heard a violent

483
00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:12.119
<v Speaker 2>bang at nine to fifteen pm, the defense attorney suddenly

484
00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:15.480
<v Speaker 2>has a fifteen minute window to introduce reasonable doubt.

485
00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:17.119
<v Speaker 1>Oh, that's brilliant for the defense.

486
00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:19.039
<v Speaker 2>It is they can look at the jury and say,

487
00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:21.680
<v Speaker 2>the state's own witnesses can't agree on when this happened.

488
00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:24.680
<v Speaker 2>Maybe someone else slipped in during that fifteen minute gap.

489
00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:29.000
<v Speaker 2>A tiny navigational error by a guest creates a massive

490
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:31.720
<v Speaker 2>fault line in the prosecution's chronological.

491
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:34.480
<v Speaker 1>Narrative that makes the stakes of every single minute so clear.

492
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:38.559
<v Speaker 1>So after that loud bang against the wall, Rosalio goes

493
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:42.079
<v Speaker 1>completely silent. He stops answering text messages, he stops answering

494
00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:42.559
<v Speaker 1>phone call.

495
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:43.319
<v Speaker 2>He's just gone.

496
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:45.319
<v Speaker 1>The sun comes up, and he doesn't show up for

497
00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:48.079
<v Speaker 1>his construction job, which is highly out of character. And

498
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.359
<v Speaker 1>on that exact same rainy morning, while Rosalio is inexplicably

499
00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:56.920
<v Speaker 1>missing from his life, surveillance cameras capture Zachariah Anderson walking

500
00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:59.920
<v Speaker 1>through the sliding doors of a big box store in Sockville.

501
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.400
<v Speaker 1>This is the Walmart trip, Yes, and I was looking

502
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:04.680
<v Speaker 1>at the details of the shopping trip and it stopped

503
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:08.359
<v Speaker 1>me in my tracks. Let's meticulously unpack his cart. It

504
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:11.960
<v Speaker 1>is raining heavily outside, yet Anderson walks into the store

505
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:14.000
<v Speaker 1>wearing a jacket and flip flops.

506
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:15.400
<v Speaker 2>Which is an odd choice for heavy rain.

507
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Very odd. He goes to the register and pays for

508
00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:21.599
<v Speaker 1>everything entirely in cash, leaving no direct digital bank trail.

509
00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:24.680
<v Speaker 1>And let's look at the items he is buying. Two

510
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:29.559
<v Speaker 1>boxes of thirteen gallon garbage bags, large containers of chlorox wipes,

511
00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:34.839
<v Speaker 1>two packages of heavy duty large gloves, cotton swabs, old spice,

512
00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:39.359
<v Speaker 1>hygiene products, a personal shaver, and three tins of sardines.

513
00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:42.240
<v Speaker 1>The sardines can't get past the sardines. You were buying

514
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:44.640
<v Speaker 1>a textbook murder cleanup kit and you throw in a snack.

515
00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:47.839
<v Speaker 2>Well, it is the single detail that catches every investigator

516
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:49.400
<v Speaker 2>and jury member completely off guard.

517
00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:50.279
<v Speaker 1>It's so weird.

518
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:53.920
<v Speaker 2>It is in a cart full of industrial cleaning supplies,

519
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:58.440
<v Speaker 2>gloves to protect hands from chemicals, bleach wipes to destroy DNA,

520
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:02.920
<v Speaker 2>large bags for trans swabs for getting into tight architectural corners.

521
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.319
<v Speaker 2>You have this incredibly pungent, specific food item. Now the

522
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:09.559
<v Speaker 2>defense would argue it's just a mundane craving a man

523
00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:12.519
<v Speaker 2>running errands who happens to like fish. But given the

524
00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:15.519
<v Speaker 2>context of what prosecutors allege he was doing that morning,

525
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:18.039
<v Speaker 2>we have to look at the biology of scent.

526
00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:21.480
<v Speaker 1>Masking exactly why sardines Specifically.

527
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:23.640
<v Speaker 2>Sardines are packed in fish oil, and they contain highly

528
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:29.920
<v Speaker 2>volatile organic compounds, specifically amines. When fifth degrades even slightly,

529
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:33.720
<v Speaker 2>it produces a smell that is overwhelmingly powerful to the

530
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:38.200
<v Speaker 2>mammalian olfactory system. It stinks, basically violently stinks. If you

531
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:41.440
<v Speaker 2>are a demolition worker trying to transport biological material that

532
00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:43.519
<v Speaker 2>you desperately do not want a cadaver dog or a

533
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:47.440
<v Speaker 2>passing patrol officer to smell. Masking that scent becomes your

534
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:48.839
<v Speaker 2>number one priority.

535
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:50.279
<v Speaker 1>And cadaver dogs are incredibly sensitive.

536
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:55.000
<v Speaker 2>They are cadaver dogs are trained to detect putrescine and cadaverine,

537
00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:58.599
<v Speaker 2>which are the chemicals of human decomposition. But if you

538
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:03.680
<v Speaker 2>saturate an environment with aerosolized fish oil or amine heavy compounds,

539
00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:08.480
<v Speaker 2>you can potentially overwhelm the canine's olfactory receptors wow, or

540
00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:11.960
<v Speaker 2>at least create enough sensory confusion to pass a cursory inspection.

541
00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:16.759
<v Speaker 1>The biological calculation behind that is terrifying. You're buying materials

542
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:19.160
<v Speaker 1>to erase the physical evidence of a crime scene, and

543
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.079
<v Speaker 1>you throw in a chemical masking agent from the grocery aisle.

544
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:23.359
<v Speaker 2>It's incredibly thorough.

545
00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:27.200
<v Speaker 1>It is. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking. Rosolio misses work

546
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:30.440
<v Speaker 1>for a second consecutive day. His cars have not moved

547
00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:34.039
<v Speaker 1>an inch from the apartment complex parking lot. Finally, concerned

548
00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:37.200
<v Speaker 1>relatives call the police to conduct a formal welfare check

549
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:39.480
<v Speaker 1>just after eleven.

550
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:40.839
<v Speaker 2>Zero am and that's when they find it.

551
00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:45.119
<v Speaker 1>Yes, the officers arrive, knock, get no answer, and make entry,

552
00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:47.799
<v Speaker 1>and when they walk into his apartment, they step into

553
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:49.440
<v Speaker 1>an absolute horror scene.

554
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:53.200
<v Speaker 2>The visual evidence left behind painted a picture of absolute

555
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:57.640
<v Speaker 2>kinetic chaos. The patiodor was left wide open to the elements.

556
00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:58.279
<v Speaker 1>Just blowing in the wind.

557
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:02.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the heavy furnature in the living room was entirely displaced,

558
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:06.839
<v Speaker 2>pushed violently aside as if a massive frantic physical struggle

559
00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:08.359
<v Speaker 2>had occurred across the floor plan.

560
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:12.599
<v Speaker 1>And most bizarrely, a very large area rug was completely

561
00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:14.039
<v Speaker 1>missing from the floor, just.

562
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:16.480
<v Speaker 2>Gone, which is a huge red flag.

563
00:27:16.759 --> 00:27:20.240
<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to picture the physical logistics of this. If

564
00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:22.680
<v Speaker 1>you wrap a grown man in a large area rug,

565
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:25.759
<v Speaker 1>how heavy is that? Is it even physically possible for

566
00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:28.759
<v Speaker 1>one guy to carry that down an apartment Stairwell, let's.

567
00:27:28.519 --> 00:27:30.799
<v Speaker 2>Do the math on the physics of it. A healthy

568
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:34.519
<v Speaker 2>adult male like Rosalio weighs roughly one hundred and eighty

569
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:37.640
<v Speaker 2>to two hundred pounds. Okay, a large, high quality area

570
00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:40.519
<v Speaker 2>rug can easily weigh forty to sixty pounds on its own.

571
00:27:40.839 --> 00:27:43.119
<v Speaker 2>You were talking about manipulating roughly two hundred and fifty

572
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:46.640
<v Speaker 2>pounds of dead, awkward, shifting weight that is incredibly heavy.

573
00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:49.200
<v Speaker 2>It is rolling that up, securing it and maneuvering it

574
00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:51.440
<v Speaker 2>out of an apartment complex without drawing the attention of

575
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:55.680
<v Speaker 2>neighbors requires tremendous sustained physical exertion. It requires knowing how

576
00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:59.039
<v Speaker 2>to leverage weight, how to pivot heavy loads around door frames.

577
00:27:58.759 --> 00:28:00.960
<v Speaker 1>Which goes back to his background exactly.

578
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:04.079
<v Speaker 2>It speaks directly to that physical demolition and contracting background

579
00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:08.039
<v Speaker 2>we discussed earlier. He hauled heavy materials for a living.

580
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:10.960
<v Speaker 2>But while he could haul away the rug, what he

581
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:13.319
<v Speaker 2>couldn't completely remove was the blood.

582
00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:16.799
<v Speaker 1>The blood evidence is what makes the missing rug so ominous.

583
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:21.119
<v Speaker 1>Investigators found blood smeared on a door, blood cast off

584
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:24.880
<v Speaker 1>onto the ceiling, and blood pooled across multiple surfaces in

585
00:28:24.920 --> 00:28:25.680
<v Speaker 1>the living area.

586
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:26.759
<v Speaker 2>It was everywhere.

587
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.240
<v Speaker 1>It was a crime scene. Expert later testified that the

588
00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:35.160
<v Speaker 1>specific spatter patterns indicated at least seven separate blood producing events.

589
00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:38.880
<v Speaker 1>This was not a single, clean, accidental strike.

590
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:39.839
<v Speaker 2>No, this was a fight.

591
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:44.319
<v Speaker 1>This was a sustained, violent, chaotic, close quarter struggle that

592
00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:45.440
<v Speaker 1>moved across the room.

593
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:48.960
<v Speaker 2>And to add a deeply eerie modern technological layer to

594
00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:52.240
<v Speaker 2>the physical scene, Rosalio's cell phone wasn't missing.

595
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:53.079
<v Speaker 1>With him, right, they found it.

596
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:56.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, relatives eventually found it hidden deep inside the refrigerator.

597
00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:58.279
<v Speaker 1>So refrigerator, why put a phone in there? Was he

598
00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:00.640
<v Speaker 1>trying to muffle the ringing fling sound?

599
00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Is one possibility, But there's a much more technical reason,

600
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:08.640
<v Speaker 2>especially for an av technician. A modern refrigerator acts as

601
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:10.200
<v Speaker 2>a rudimentary Faraday cage.

602
00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:12.480
<v Speaker 1>A Faraday cage, right, It is a.

603
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:16.119
<v Speaker 2>Thick metal line box designed to insulate temperature. But that

604
00:29:16.279 --> 00:29:21.000
<v Speaker 2>dense metal also heavily degrades or completely blocks cellular and

605
00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:22.200
<v Speaker 2>GPS signals.

606
00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:24.319
<v Speaker 1>Oh, that is smart, It's very smart.

607
00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:27.440
<v Speaker 2>If you want to immediately sever a phone's connection to

608
00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:30.039
<v Speaker 2>the network so it can't be pinged by cell towers,

609
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:31.640
<v Speaker 2>but you don't want to carry it with you and

610
00:29:31.720 --> 00:29:34.079
<v Speaker 2>risk it connecting to towers along your escape.

611
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Route, you just toss it in the fridge.

612
00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:38.880
<v Speaker 2>Exactly. Tossing it into a metal refrigerator is a rapid,

613
00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:41.799
<v Speaker 2>highly effective way to silence its digital footprint.

614
00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:44.559
<v Speaker 1>That is a chilling application of technical knowledge in the

615
00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:48.160
<v Speaker 1>heat of a murder. But the overarching screaming question when

616
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:51.160
<v Speaker 1>you look at that apartment remains if the scene looks

617
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.599
<v Speaker 1>like a slaughterhouse. Where is the victim?

618
00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:54.880
<v Speaker 2>Where is Rosellio?

619
00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:59.079
<v Speaker 1>The apartment is totally empty, Rosalio is gone, and because

620
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:01.440
<v Speaker 1>they don't have a body, the police are forced to

621
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:05.119
<v Speaker 1>build their case backward, working from the suspect's life. They

622
00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:09.799
<v Speaker 1>immediately turn the full force of their focus onto Zachariah Anderson.

623
00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:12.920
<v Speaker 2>And they start executing search warrants on his physical assets.

624
00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:17.559
<v Speaker 2>Let's list the concrete physical evidence they eventually tied to him. First,

625
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:22.279
<v Speaker 2>they impound his work minivan. When forensic investigators open the doors,

626
00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:24.920
<v Speaker 2>they find that a large section of the interior carpeting

627
00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:27.880
<v Speaker 2>has been completely ripped out and removed down to the

628
00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:29.039
<v Speaker 2>bare metal floorboards.

629
00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:30.759
<v Speaker 1>That's incredibly suspicious.

630
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:35.480
<v Speaker 2>Furthermore, the interior of the vehicle absolutely reeks of chemical bleach.

631
00:30:35.319 --> 00:30:38.799
<v Speaker 1>Reeks of it. Next, they move to his property in Mikuon.

632
00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:41.960
<v Speaker 1>Because he operates as a contractor, he has a legal

633
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:45.000
<v Speaker 1>city issued permit for a controlled burn pit on his

634
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.519
<v Speaker 1>land to dispose of construction waste, which is convenient very

635
00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:51.359
<v Speaker 1>but when police inspect the specific pit, they find it

636
00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:55.480
<v Speaker 1>has been recently intensely used. Sifting through the ashes, they

637
00:30:55.480 --> 00:30:59.559
<v Speaker 1>find heavily heat damaged bleach containers and the charred, burned

638
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:00.640
<v Speaker 1>remnants of clothing.

639
00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:02.480
<v Speaker 2>And then they brought the dogs in.

640
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:05.519
<v Speaker 1>Yes, a specialized cadaver dog is brought in and the

641
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:08.240
<v Speaker 1>handler reports that the dog alerts to the scent of

642
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:11.400
<v Speaker 1>human remains in the general area of this pit.

643
00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:13.960
<v Speaker 2>And that isn't the only site they find. They also

644
00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:16.880
<v Speaker 2>execute a search warrant on his family's sprawling tree farm

645
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:20.599
<v Speaker 2>in the Sackville area. They locate a second recently used

646
00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:21.160
<v Speaker 2>burn site.

647
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:22.319
<v Speaker 1>There two burn sites.

648
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:25.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is the exact same property where his young

649
00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:27.519
<v Speaker 2>daughter later testified she had seen him do a chainsaw

650
00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:30.920
<v Speaker 2>in the days following the disappearance, allegedly telling her it

651
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:31.839
<v Speaker 2>was for relatives to.

652
00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:36.559
<v Speaker 1>Repair a chainsaw. So you have ripped carpet, bleach, multiple

653
00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:40.400
<v Speaker 1>burn pits, and a chainsaw. Law enforcement even spent days

654
00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:44.319
<v Speaker 1>searching a massive nearby commercial landfill, coming through literal mountains

655
00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:48.759
<v Speaker 1>of compacted garbage with heavy machinery, desperately looking for Rosalglio's

656
00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:52.960
<v Speaker 1>remains or any discarded bloody evidence. But they found absolutely.

657
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:53.319
<v Speaker 2>Nothing good thing at all.

658
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:55.720
<v Speaker 1>They are left with a collection of highly suspicious but

659
00:31:55.799 --> 00:32:00.319
<v Speaker 1>ultimately circumstantial items, which forces us to ask, how on

660
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:02.559
<v Speaker 1>earth does a prosecutor prove to a jury that a

661
00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:05.559
<v Speaker 1>burned bleach bottle and a missing piece of carpet actually

662
00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:08.880
<v Speaker 1>equate to first degree intentional homicide.

663
00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:11.319
<v Speaker 2>When there are alternative explanations for almost all of it.

664
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:15.000
<v Speaker 2>Exactly well, that gap between suspicion and proof is exactly

665
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.160
<v Speaker 2>where a skilled defense team plants their flag. Anderson's lawyers

666
00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:24.200
<v Speaker 2>launched a brilliant, incredibly aggressive strategy to unravel this circumstantial web,

667
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:26.000
<v Speaker 2>thread by individual thread.

668
00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:27.519
<v Speaker 1>How did they do it.

669
00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:31.240
<v Speaker 2>They didn't just deny the evidence. They systematically offered a

670
00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:36.799
<v Speaker 2>highly plausible alternative reality for every single piece of it.

671
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:38.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's start with the blood in the apartment, right.

672
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:42.759
<v Speaker 2>The defense viciously attacked the credibility of the state's analysis.

673
00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:46.000
<v Speaker 2>They pointed out to the jury that the specific police

674
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:49.200
<v Speaker 2>officer who interpreted the blood spatter patterns, the one who

675
00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:52.359
<v Speaker 2>confidently claimed there were seven distinct violent events, only had

676
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:55.480
<v Speaker 2>about forty hours of formal training in bloodstained pattern analysis.

677
00:32:55.519 --> 00:32:56.880
<v Speaker 1>Wait, forty hours, that's it.

678
00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:59.160
<v Speaker 2>That's it. He was a local cop who took a

679
00:32:59.160 --> 00:33:02.400
<v Speaker 2>week long seminar. Are not a world renowned, board certified

680
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:05.680
<v Speaker 2>forensic scientist. They argued his interpretation of the chaos was

681
00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:09.279
<v Speaker 2>entirely speculative and shouldn't be trusted as scientific fact.

682
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:11.680
<v Speaker 1>That casts immediate doubt on the severity of the scene.

683
00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:14.759
<v Speaker 1>But what about the mini van. How do you explain

684
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:16.960
<v Speaker 1>away a van that smells like a swimming pool and

685
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:17.799
<v Speaker 1>is missing its.

686
00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:22.039
<v Speaker 2>Carpet by attacking the chemistry. The prosecution use chemical presumptive

687
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:26.480
<v Speaker 2>tests inside the van, chemicals like luminol or phenol phalin

688
00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:30.079
<v Speaker 2>that reacted and changed color to indicate the possible presence

689
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:30.519
<v Speaker 2>of blood.

690
00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Right they glow or turn pink.

691
00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:37.440
<v Speaker 2>But the defense countered with an unassailable scientific fact. Those

692
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:41.519
<v Speaker 2>specific presumptive blood tests look for the iron and hemoglobin

693
00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:46.839
<v Speaker 2>by triggering an oxidation reaction. However, household bleach is a massive,

694
00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:48.960
<v Speaker 2>incredibly powerful oxidizing agent.

695
00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:52.240
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, so the bleach triggered the tests exactly.

696
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:55.319
<v Speaker 2>So if Zacharia Anderson was simply cleaning his dirty construction

697
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:58.640
<v Speaker 2>van with chlorox wipes, which we know he bought at Walmart,

698
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:02.519
<v Speaker 2>the chemical test gets the bleach, oxidizes the chemical and

699
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:05.319
<v Speaker 2>it lights up bright pink or blue, exactly as if

700
00:34:05.319 --> 00:34:06.319
<v Speaker 2>it were a bloodbath.

701
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:09.159
<v Speaker 1>The defense argued the state was testing cleaning supplies, not

702
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:10.159
<v Speaker 1>murder evidence.

703
00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:15.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes, Now, the state did find one tiny microscopic pinhead

704
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:18.199
<v Speaker 2>size stain in the van that yielded a DNA profile

705
00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:22.239
<v Speaker 2>connected to Rosalio, But on cross examination, even the state's

706
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:25.599
<v Speaker 2>own DNA analyst had to admit they couldn't confirm with

707
00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:29.960
<v Speaker 2>absolute scientific certainty that the substance was definitively blood as

708
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:34.719
<v Speaker 2>opposed to sweat, saliva, or another fluid transferred innocuously during

709
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:35.760
<v Speaker 2>a previous interaction.

710
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:39.840
<v Speaker 1>That is some incredible reasonable doubt. They dismantled the digital

711
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:42.880
<v Speaker 1>stalking evidence using a similar tactic, didn't they Precisely?

712
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:46.599
<v Speaker 2>The state had the digital receipts showing Anderson bought GPS

713
00:34:46.599 --> 00:34:50.280
<v Speaker 2>tracking devices on his daughter's account, but the defense highlighted

714
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:54.880
<v Speaker 2>a glaring physical gap. Law enforcement searched Rosalio's vehicles top

715
00:34:54.920 --> 00:34:57.440
<v Speaker 2>to bottom and never actually found those specific trackers.

716
00:34:57.519 --> 00:34:58.119
<v Speaker 1>They weren't there.

717
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:00.760
<v Speaker 2>Buying a piece of electronics at a store not a crime.

718
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:04.119
<v Speaker 2>Proving beyond a reasonable doubt that it was planted, utilized,

719
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:07.679
<v Speaker 2>and monitored is much much harder without the physical device

720
00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:08.039
<v Speaker 2>in hand.

721
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:10.960
<v Speaker 1>But looking over the trial transcripts, I think the biggest,

722
00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:15.000
<v Speaker 1>most glaring gap the defense exploited was Zachariah Anderson's own

723
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:15.920
<v Speaker 1>physical appearance.

724
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes, this was huge.

725
00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:21.079
<v Speaker 1>Police encountered him and interviewed him shortly after the disappearance.

726
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:25.800
<v Speaker 1>This is a guy, the state claims, just committed a horrific, bloody,

727
00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:30.199
<v Speaker 1>close quarters murder in an apartment, engaged in a massive

728
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:33.519
<v Speaker 1>physical struggle, and rolled a two hundred pound man into

729
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:36.719
<v Speaker 1>a rug. Right, and yet the clothes he was wearing

730
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:40.760
<v Speaker 1>that week and his physical body had absolutely zero visible

731
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:43.440
<v Speaker 1>blood on them. There were no scratches on his face,

732
00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:46.639
<v Speaker 1>no defensive wounds on his hands or arms noted by police.

733
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:47.679
<v Speaker 2>Nothing. He was clean.

734
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:51.360
<v Speaker 1>The defense forced the prosecutors to essentially invent a theory

735
00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:55.039
<v Speaker 1>where Anderson is some sort of forensic supervillain. They had

736
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:58.559
<v Speaker 1>to argue that he committed a brutal, messy assault, rolled

737
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:01.239
<v Speaker 1>up a body, moved it out of a building, tore

738
00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:04.519
<v Speaker 1>out his van's carpet, burned evidence, and perfectly cleaned his

739
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:07.960
<v Speaker 1>own body, all without leaving a single speck of physical

740
00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:10.679
<v Speaker 1>evidence on his person and without a single eyewitness seeing

741
00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:12.000
<v Speaker 1>him do any of it.

742
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:14.800
<v Speaker 2>It is often called the perfect cleanup theory in legal circles,

743
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:18.639
<v Speaker 2>and defense attorneys love to mockt The defense argued that

744
00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:20.880
<v Speaker 2>investigators developed severe tunnel vision.

745
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:22.880
<v Speaker 1>On day one, they just zeroed in on him.

746
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:26.079
<v Speaker 2>They decided Anderson was guilty because of the contentious breakup,

747
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:30.360
<v Speaker 2>and they retrofitted every piece of mundane blue collar life

748
00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:34.559
<v Speaker 2>to fit a murder narrative. You have burn pits. He's

749
00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:37.159
<v Speaker 2>a contractor who burns construction wasts, which is why he

750
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.360
<v Speaker 2>has a permit. You have cash from Walmart. He work

751
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:43.079
<v Speaker 2>side jobs and gets paid in cash to avoid taxes.

752
00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:45.519
<v Speaker 1>You have ripped carpet. It's a work van that got

753
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:46.840
<v Speaker 1>ruined by a chemical spill.

754
00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:50.880
<v Speaker 2>Exactly. Yeah, everything had a plausible, innocent explanation if you

755
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:53.039
<v Speaker 2>just tilted your head and look at it from the

756
00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:53.880
<v Speaker 2>defense's angle.

757
00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:58.880
<v Speaker 1>This entire debate perfectly illustrates the complex mechanism of circumstantial

758
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:02.719
<v Speaker 1>evidence and how a nobody homicide actually has to work

759
00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:06.119
<v Speaker 1>in a courtroom to be successful. Circumstantial evidence is so

760
00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:07.159
<v Speaker 1>often misunderstood.

761
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:10.039
<v Speaker 2>You know, oh, absolutely, people expect a smoking gun, right.

762
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:12.400
<v Speaker 1>It isn't a movie where they find the murder weapon

763
00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:15.400
<v Speaker 1>with his pristine fingerprints on the hilt. I like to

764
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.480
<v Speaker 1>think of circumstantial evidence like pixels in a digital photograph.

765
00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:19.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's a good analogy.

766
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:23.639
<v Speaker 1>If you zoom all the way in on one single pixel,

767
00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:28.639
<v Speaker 1>like the Walmart receipt for sardines. It's just a meaningless, blurry,

768
00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:32.280
<v Speaker 1>gray square. The defense can easily point out it and say, look,

769
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:34.079
<v Speaker 1>it's just a gray square. It means nothing.

770
00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:37.480
<v Speaker 2>That is a phenomenal analogy, because if the prosecution stays

771
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:40.800
<v Speaker 2>zoomed in, they lose. The prosecution's entire job is to

772
00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:43.559
<v Speaker 2>zoom out. Yes, they have to arrange ten thousand of

773
00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:47.199
<v Speaker 2>those blurry pixels together. The Walmart receipt, the ripped carpet,

774
00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:50.760
<v Speaker 2>the daughter's testimony about the window, the burner phone under

775
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:53.559
<v Speaker 2>the booster seat, the complete lack of cell phone activity

776
00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:56.199
<v Speaker 2>from the victim after eight point four nine pm, the

777
00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:59.079
<v Speaker 2>cadaver dog alerting on the burn pit exact right on

778
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:02.280
<v Speaker 2>their own. Any single pixel is meaningless, but when you

779
00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:04.079
<v Speaker 2>zoom out and look at the whole image, you can

780
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:06.679
<v Speaker 2>clearly see the high resolution picture of a murderer. You

781
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:08.599
<v Speaker 2>can't argue with the composite image.

782
00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:11.039
<v Speaker 1>And the prosecution's goal is to make that image so

783
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:14.760
<v Speaker 1>clear that it convinces a jury of one inescapable truth.

784
00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:18.960
<v Speaker 1>Rosilio Gatiraz did not just walk away from his thriving life.

785
00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:23.119
<v Speaker 1>His beloved children, and his church community and his construction job. No,

786
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:26.119
<v Speaker 1>he didn't, And Zacharia Anderson is the only person on

787
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:29.119
<v Speaker 1>earth who had the obsessive motive, the timeline window, and

788
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:31.760
<v Speaker 1>the physical skills to ensure he never came back.

789
00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:36.639
<v Speaker 2>But taking a fragile, purely circumstantial web of keixels to

790
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:40.119
<v Speaker 2>a jury in a murder trial is a massive gamble

791
00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:43.840
<v Speaker 2>with justice. You are rolling the dice with a family's closure,

792
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:47.400
<v Speaker 2>You really are, And that tension sets the stage perfectly

793
00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:50.960
<v Speaker 2>for what happened next the court room, theatrics, the legal maneuvering,

794
00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:54.119
<v Speaker 2>and ultimately the verdict. Because this case didn't just go

795
00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:56.400
<v Speaker 2>to trial. Once it went to trial.

796
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:58.519
<v Speaker 1>Twice, the first trial collapsed, didn't it.

797
00:38:58.519 --> 00:39:01.400
<v Speaker 2>It did, and it classed entirely because of that fragile

798
00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:05.280
<v Speaker 2>timeline mathematics we mentioned earlier With Neurotomchias.

799
00:39:04.519 --> 00:39:06.639
<v Speaker 1>The woman who went to the wrong apartment building.

800
00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:10.239
<v Speaker 2>Right, she took the stand to testify, but her testimony

801
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:13.079
<v Speaker 2>on the stand about the exact sequence of events and

802
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:16.719
<v Speaker 2>exactly what she saw and heard that night shifted subtly

803
00:39:16.760 --> 00:39:19.760
<v Speaker 2>from what she had previously stated in police reports. Yeah,

804
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:23.599
<v Speaker 2>the defense attorneys instantly pounced. They argued that they were

805
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:27.760
<v Speaker 2>totally blindsided by this altered account, and worse, they claimed

806
00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:30.679
<v Speaker 2>the prosecutors had known about this discrepancy in her memory

807
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:34.079
<v Speaker 2>for months without properly disclosing it to the defense.

808
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:35.239
<v Speaker 1>Team, which is a huge deal.

809
00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:38.480
<v Speaker 2>Is a massive violation of the Brady rule regarding the

810
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:42.199
<v Speaker 2>discovery of evidence. The judge agreed that this sudden shift

811
00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:45.760
<v Speaker 2>compromised the fundamental fairness of the preceding and he declared

812
00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:48.400
<v Speaker 2>a mistrial. They had to pack up all the evidence

813
00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:49.599
<v Speaker 2>and start all over.

814
00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:52.920
<v Speaker 1>Again, which is psychologically devastating for a victim's family. You know,

815
00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:55.000
<v Speaker 1>to gear up for a murder trial, sit in the

816
00:39:55.039 --> 00:39:57.920
<v Speaker 1>gallery and watch it evaporate on a procedural technicality.

817
00:39:58.000 --> 00:39:58.800
<v Speaker 2>It's agonizing.

818
00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:02.199
<v Speaker 1>But the state regrew refines their timeline and the second

819
00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:04.880
<v Speaker 1>trial kicks off roughly a year later. And if the

820
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:08.199
<v Speaker 1>first trial ended in a procedural fizzle, the second trial

821
00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:11.239
<v Speaker 1>was absolute, unbridled chaos.

822
00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:11.599
<v Speaker 2>Pure chaos.

823
00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:15.039
<v Speaker 1>It featured a vicious battle of jail house informants. The

824
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:19.320
<v Speaker 1>prosecution brings forward an inmate named Markwan Washington. He takes

825
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:22.320
<v Speaker 1>the stand and testifies that while they were incarcerated together

826
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:27.199
<v Speaker 1>awaiting trial, Zachariah Anderson explicitly confessed to him, describing in

827
00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:30.440
<v Speaker 1>graphic detail how he repeatedly stabbed Rosolio.

828
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:35.079
<v Speaker 2>Jail house informants are notoriously tricky pieces of evidence, and

829
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:39.159
<v Speaker 2>prosecutors use them at their own peril. Juries are inherently

830
00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:42.840
<v Speaker 2>deeply skeptical of them because they understand the prison economy right.

831
00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:44.960
<v Speaker 1>They know people trade info exactly.

832
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:49.920
<v Speaker 2>Inmates often trade fabricated testimony for lighter sentences, better sell conditions,

833
00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:54.440
<v Speaker 2>or cash in their commissary accounts. The defense anticipated this beautifully.

834
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:55.320
<v Speaker 1>How do they counter it?

835
00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:57.880
<v Speaker 2>They didn't just cross examine Markwan Washington the point out

836
00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:02.039
<v Speaker 2>as incentives. They brought in another inmate to actively testify against.

837
00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:02.880
<v Speaker 1>Him, the counter informant.

838
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:05.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, this second inmate took this stand and declared to

839
00:41:05.960 --> 00:41:09.599
<v Speaker 2>the jury that Washington was a chronic, pathological liar who

840
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:12.840
<v Speaker 2>had a known documented habit of trying to insert himself

841
00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:16.760
<v Speaker 2>into other prisoners' high profile media cases, specifically to gain

842
00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:20.239
<v Speaker 2>favor with the guards and prosecutors. Wow, it was a

843
00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:23.840
<v Speaker 2>complete muddying of the waters, turning the trial into a

844
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:28.280
<v Speaker 2>referendum on who you believe less, the alleged killer or

845
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:28.800
<v Speaker 2>the snitch.

846
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:31.199
<v Speaker 1>And the drama wasn't just confined to the inmates on

847
00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:35.159
<v Speaker 1>the witness stand, it bled over to the prosecution table itself.

848
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:38.400
<v Speaker 1>At one point in the trial, the district Attorney himself,

849
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:42.239
<v Speaker 1>Michael Gravely, was actually removed from the courtroom during testimony.

850
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:46.000
<v Speaker 1>That is almost unheard of, right because DA Gravely had

851
00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:50.159
<v Speaker 1>been personally directly involved in interviewing Murta mckeas early in

852
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:53.400
<v Speaker 1>the initial police investigation. The judge determined that there was

853
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:55.559
<v Speaker 1>a legal risk the DA might have to become a

854
00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:58.239
<v Speaker 1>witness in his own case to clarify what she said,

855
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:00.440
<v Speaker 1>so he had to physically step out of the room.

856
00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:03.440
<v Speaker 1>That was wild, and later the tension reached a boiling

857
00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:07.239
<v Speaker 1>point when the defense explicitly accused Dia Gravely of literally

858
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:10.519
<v Speaker 1>mouthing words to the informant, Mark Jan Washington while the

859
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:12.960
<v Speaker 1>informant was on the stand struggling with his testimony.

860
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:15.800
<v Speaker 2>The DA vehemently denied the accusation on the record. Of course,

861
00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:18.800
<v Speaker 2>of course, the judge ultimately allowed the jury to weigh

862
00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:23.760
<v Speaker 2>the accusation themselves, rather than throwing out the informant's testimony entirely.

863
00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:28.239
<v Speaker 2>But that moment paints a vivid picture of an incredibly tense,

864
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:33.960
<v Speaker 2>combative almost toxic courtroom environment. Every single inch of legal

865
00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:37.360
<v Speaker 2>ground was being violently contested by both sides.

866
00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:42.400
<v Speaker 1>Amidst all this aggressive legal maneuvering, the shouted objections over informants,

867
00:42:42.440 --> 00:42:45.559
<v Speaker 1>of the debates over bleach chemistry, we have to bring

868
00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:48.320
<v Speaker 1>the focus back to the deeply human element of the strategy.

869
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:48.840
<v Speaker 2>We really do.

870
00:42:49.159 --> 00:42:51.920
<v Speaker 1>The emotional core of this trial wasn't the blood spatter

871
00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:55.159
<v Speaker 1>on the ceiling or the ripped minivan carpet. The absolute

872
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:59.280
<v Speaker 1>emotional core was Zachariah Anderson's teenage daughter taking the witness stand.

873
00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:01.159
<v Speaker 2>That was just heart wrenching.

874
00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:04.760
<v Speaker 1>Imagine the crushing psychological weight on this young girl sitting

875
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:08.079
<v Speaker 1>in a packed courtroom, testifying in a murder trial against

876
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:10.960
<v Speaker 1>her own father. And while she is up there speaking

877
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.360
<v Speaker 1>to the court about the window incident and the burner phones,

878
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:17.599
<v Speaker 1>prosecutors observe Anderson sitting at the defense table, actively making

879
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:19.719
<v Speaker 1>facial expressions and gestures stored.

880
00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:22.920
<v Speaker 2>Her, seemingly trying to intimidate her or influence her answers

881
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:23.639
<v Speaker 2>in real time.

882
00:43:24.039 --> 00:43:27.039
<v Speaker 1>Yes, the judge actually had to stop the proceeding and

883
00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:29.039
<v Speaker 1>address his behavior on the public record.

884
00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:32.840
<v Speaker 2>It is a profound, chilling continuation of the exact control

885
00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:36.079
<v Speaker 2>dynamics we discussed at the very beginning. Even in a

886
00:43:36.119 --> 00:43:39.280
<v Speaker 2>courtroom with his life on the line, surrounded by armed

887
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:42.599
<v Speaker 2>bayliss and a judge, he is still fundamentally unable to

888
00:43:42.679 --> 00:43:43.000
<v Speaker 2>let go.

889
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:45.280
<v Speaker 1>He still thinks he's the warden exactly.

890
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:49.760
<v Speaker 2>He is still attempting to manipulate his child's narrative. But

891
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:53.920
<v Speaker 2>despite his staring, her voice could not be silenced, and

892
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:56.679
<v Speaker 2>her statement at his eventual sentencing hearing was perhaps the

893
00:43:56.719 --> 00:44:01.360
<v Speaker 2>most devastating piercing analysis of his character heard throughout the

894
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:03.159
<v Speaker 2>entire multi year proceeding.

895
00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:04.880
<v Speaker 1>She stood up in that courtroom, looked at the men

896
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:07.760
<v Speaker 1>who raised her, and questioned the fundamental nature of their

897
00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:11.360
<v Speaker 1>entire relationship. She asked out loud to the judge if

898
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:13.800
<v Speaker 1>her father had ever truly loved her as a human being,

899
00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:16.880
<v Speaker 1>as an independent daughter, or if he had simply viewed

900
00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:19.559
<v Speaker 1>her as an extension of himself upon on a chess board,

901
00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:23.119
<v Speaker 1>exactly a tool to be used to maintain surveillance and

902
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:26.480
<v Speaker 1>control over her mother. She told him directly that she

903
00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:29.280
<v Speaker 1>had lost all confidence in him as a parent. It

904
00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:33.039
<v Speaker 1>absolutely breaks your heart listening to a child vocalized the

905
00:44:33.079 --> 00:44:36.800
<v Speaker 1>realization that her parent weaponized her innocence for a vendetta.

906
00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:41.159
<v Speaker 2>It strips away all the complex legal jargon, the Brady violations,

907
00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:43.599
<v Speaker 2>and the forensic chemistry, and he gets down to the

908
00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:47.039
<v Speaker 2>absolute rot at the center of the case. The tragedy

909
00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:50.039
<v Speaker 2>wasn't just that he took Rosalio's life. It was that

910
00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:53.800
<v Speaker 2>he was entirely willing to destroy the psychological well being

911
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:57.039
<v Speaker 2>and fundamental trust of his own children to satisfy his

912
00:44:57.079 --> 00:44:58.480
<v Speaker 2>obsessive need for control.

913
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:01.599
<v Speaker 1>The jury absorbed all of this. They sat through the

914
00:45:01.639 --> 00:45:06.239
<v Speaker 1>circumstantial evidence, the chaotic shifting timeline, the dueling jailhouse snitches,

915
00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:09.760
<v Speaker 1>and the heartbreaking family dynamics. When they finally got the case,

916
00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:13.559
<v Speaker 1>it took them roughly ten hours of methodical, intense deliberation

917
00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:14.000
<v Speaker 1>in that.

918
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:15.880
<v Speaker 2>Jury room, which is a decent amount of time.

919
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:18.719
<v Speaker 1>And you can tell they took their duty incredibly seriously

920
00:45:18.760 --> 00:45:21.079
<v Speaker 1>because on the very first day of deliberations, they spent

921
00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:25.320
<v Speaker 1>five full hours just asking the judge complex legal questions,

922
00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:27.320
<v Speaker 1>specifically about the stocking charges.

923
00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:28.920
<v Speaker 2>Right, they were working through the pixels.

924
00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:31.920
<v Speaker 1>They weren't just rubber stamping the homicide charge and going home.

925
00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:36.679
<v Speaker 1>They were building that composite image themselves. Pixeled by pixel

926
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:39.920
<v Speaker 1>thread by thread. Ultimately, they returned to the courtroom and

927
00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:45.119
<v Speaker 1>found Zacharai Anderson guilty on all counts, first degree intentional homicide,

928
00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:48.599
<v Speaker 1>hiding a corpse, and stalking both Sadie and Rosalio.

929
00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:51.880
<v Speaker 2>The sentence handed down by the judge reflected the absolute

930
00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:54.519
<v Speaker 2>severity of the complete, zoomed.

931
00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:55.760
<v Speaker 1>Out picture what was the breakdown.

932
00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:59.440
<v Speaker 2>The judge gave him consecutive sentences for the stalking and

933
00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:03.400
<v Speaker 2>corpsegighting charges, culminating in a mandatory life sentence for the

934
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:07.800
<v Speaker 2>first degree homicide. Crucially, the judge structured the penalties so

935
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:10.679
<v Speaker 2>that Anderson is not even legally eligible to seek a

936
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:13.719
<v Speaker 2>release petition until he has served forty full years of

937
00:46:13.719 --> 00:46:14.440
<v Speaker 2>that life.

938
00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:17.440
<v Speaker 1>Term, meaning he will be well into his nineties before

939
00:46:17.480 --> 00:46:19.800
<v Speaker 1>he even sniffs the air of a parole board hearing.

940
00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:21.920
<v Speaker 2>If he makes it that long, the gavel.

941
00:46:21.599 --> 00:46:24.920
<v Speaker 1>Falls, the courtroom clears out, the news cameras pack up,

942
00:46:25.159 --> 00:46:27.800
<v Speaker 1>and a man is locked away in a concrete cell

943
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:30.840
<v Speaker 1>for the rest of his natural life. But that brings

944
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:34.679
<v Speaker 1>us to the agonizing transition of this reality. What happens

945
00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:38.599
<v Speaker 1>after the gavel falls and the legal system declares a victory.

946
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:40.440
<v Speaker 2>Right, Because the story isn't really over.

947
00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:43.360
<v Speaker 1>The state has its hard fought conviction. The architect of

948
00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:45.840
<v Speaker 1>the crime is in a cage, but a family in

949
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:48.119
<v Speaker 1>Kenosha is still missing their son.

950
00:46:48.440 --> 00:46:52.920
<v Speaker 2>And that is the haunting, unresolved reality of a nobody homicide.

951
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:56.360
<v Speaker 2>The legal system has reached a definitive conclusion, but the

952
00:46:56.400 --> 00:46:58.199
<v Speaker 2>physical world has not caught up.

953
00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:01.039
<v Speaker 1>Let's look at the aftermath where crently sitting in today,

954
00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:06.000
<v Speaker 1>Zacharai Anderson maintains absolute, unwavering denial of all charges. He

955
00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:10.440
<v Speaker 1>denies killing Rosalio, He denies ever stalking Sadie. He denies

956
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:11.280
<v Speaker 1>hiding a body.

957
00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:12.920
<v Speaker 2>He hasn't yielded an inch from.

958
00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:14.840
<v Speaker 1>Behind the walls of a state prison. He is still

959
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:18.199
<v Speaker 1>actively fighting the narrative. He recently filed a staggering ten

960
00:47:18.280 --> 00:47:21.800
<v Speaker 1>million dollars civil lawsuit against the city of Mikuan, claiming

961
00:47:21.800 --> 00:47:24.840
<v Speaker 1>his original arrest was procedurally improper.

962
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:28.519
<v Speaker 2>Acclaimed the city swiftly and aggressively rejected in court filings.

963
00:47:28.119 --> 00:47:31.199
<v Speaker 1>By the way Right. His family is running a very public,

964
00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:36.000
<v Speaker 1>vocal campaign declaring his absolute innocence, arguing he was railroaded

965
00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:40.239
<v Speaker 1>by a corrupt tunnel vision justice system, and journal entries

966
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:42.440
<v Speaker 1>attributed to him are still making their way out to

967
00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:43.320
<v Speaker 1>the public sphere.

968
00:47:43.400 --> 00:47:44.920
<v Speaker 2>He's still trying to control the story.

969
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:48.880
<v Speaker 1>He even reportedly complained, according to a recorded jailhouse intercept

970
00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.480
<v Speaker 1>mentioned by the DA during hearings, that he was furious

971
00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:55.400
<v Speaker 1>he had to spend nearly four hundred thousand dollars on

972
00:47:55.480 --> 00:47:56.360
<v Speaker 1>his defense team.

973
00:47:56.639 --> 00:47:59.480
<v Speaker 2>Complaining about the financial cost of a legal defense team

974
00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:02.599
<v Speaker 2>while the family is completely bereft of their loved one's

975
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:06.800
<v Speaker 2>physical remains, shows a stark, almost clinical lack of empathy.

976
00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:07.800
<v Speaker 1>It's unbelievable.

977
00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:11.960
<v Speaker 2>It highlights a man who is still entirely exclusively focused

978
00:48:11.960 --> 00:48:15.599
<v Speaker 2>on his own perceived victimhood, completely blind to the devastation

979
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:16.159
<v Speaker 2>he cosed.

980
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:19.119
<v Speaker 1>It is maddening to listen to, which brings us to

981
00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:22.039
<v Speaker 1>a final provocative thought for you, the listener to mull

982
00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:25.039
<v Speaker 1>Over as we conclude something that builds on the tension

983
00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:28.239
<v Speaker 1>between the law and reality that we've discussed, highlighting a

984
00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:30.519
<v Speaker 1>deeply chilling bureaucratic paradox.

985
00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:31.880
<v Speaker 2>This part always gets me.

986
00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:34.960
<v Speaker 1>The jury of his peers handed down a guilty verdict

987
00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:38.360
<v Speaker 1>for first degree murder. The judge sentenced him to life

988
00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:42.719
<v Speaker 1>in prisons, specifically for taking a human life. Legally, the

989
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:46.519
<v Speaker 1>state of Wisconsin formally recognizes and enforces the fact that

990
00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:50.440
<v Speaker 1>Rosalio Gutiraz Junior was murdered by Zachariah Anderson.

991
00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:53.159
<v Speaker 2>But if you go to the state's official missing person

992
00:48:53.199 --> 00:48:57.599
<v Speaker 2>registry today, you will find Rovalio Gutierrez's face staring back

993
00:48:57.639 --> 00:48:58.719
<v Speaker 2>at you from the screen.

994
00:48:58.559 --> 00:48:59.119
<v Speaker 1>Still there.

995
00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:01.920
<v Speaker 2>His case is officially listed in the database is open.

996
00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:06.679
<v Speaker 2>His physical location is listed as unknown. He is, on paper,

997
00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:10.920
<v Speaker 2>simply a missing man. I want you to ponder that chilling,

998
00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:12.039
<v Speaker 2>bureaucratic limbo.

999
00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:13.320
<v Speaker 1>It's a massive contradiction.

1000
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:15.719
<v Speaker 2>What does justice actually mean when the highest courts in

1001
00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:18.840
<v Speaker 2>the state declare a man murdered, severely, punish his killer,

1002
00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:22.159
<v Speaker 2>and close the legal book, But the administrative paperwork of

1003
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:24.760
<v Speaker 2>that exact same state still waits for him to walk

1004
00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:26.840
<v Speaker 2>through the front door and come home. The family has

1005
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:30.079
<v Speaker 2>no physical grave to visit on holidays. They have never

1006
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:32.679
<v Speaker 2>been able to hold a proper funeral to say goodbye.

1007
00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:35.960
<v Speaker 2>The legal system packed up his briefcases and moved on,

1008
00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:40.480
<v Speaker 2>But the physical reality of the family remains suspended forever

1009
00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:43.039
<v Speaker 2>in that dark, unresolved void.

1010
00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:47.079
<v Speaker 1>It is a massive echoing gap between legal truth and

1011
00:49:47.239 --> 00:49:49.880
<v Speaker 1>physical truth that a family is forced to wake up

1012
00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:52.960
<v Speaker 1>and live in every single day. I want to sincerely

1013
00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:55.280
<v Speaker 1>thank you the listener for staying with us until the

1014
00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:59.920
<v Speaker 1>end of this incredibly heavy, complex exploration of human behavior.

1015
00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:01.639
<v Speaker 2>And the lawe It's a tough one to sit through.

1016
00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:05.000
<v Speaker 1>Cases like this require immense patience and a willingness to

1017
00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:07.599
<v Speaker 1>look closely into the dark corners of the justice system,

1018
00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:10.159
<v Speaker 1>and we deeply appreciate you taking that long journey with

1019
00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:10.719
<v Speaker 1>us today.

1020
00:50:11.119 --> 00:50:15.320
<v Speaker 2>If this breakdown of circumstantial evidence, the mechanisms of coercive control,

1021
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:18.400
<v Speaker 2>and the complicated pursuit of a convition resonated with you,

1022
00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:21.119
<v Speaker 2>we encourage everyone to subscribe to the show so you

1023
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:22.480
<v Speaker 2>don't miss our next conversation.

1024
00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:25.400
<v Speaker 1>So what does this all mean? It means there's always

1025
00:50:25.400 --> 00:50:28.159
<v Speaker 1>more to uncover beneath the surface of a verdict. We

1026
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:30.960
<v Speaker 1>bid you a fond farewell until next time, and as

1027
00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:33.559
<v Speaker 1>you go about your day, think back to that cold night.

1028
00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:36.360
<v Speaker 1>We started with a breath held tight behind a small

1029
00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:39.639
<v Speaker 1>hand so the glass wouldn't fog, a child forced to

1030
00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:42.079
<v Speaker 1>look into the darkness by the very person supposed to

1031
00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:45.039
<v Speaker 1>keep her safe. The fog eventually clears on the glass,

1032
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:47.280
<v Speaker 1>but the chill of what was seen through it never

1033
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:48.280
<v Speaker 1>truly goes away,