Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: My name is Darren Chackman.
Speaker 1: I currently live in Penalula, but I'm from Los Angeles
Speaker 1: and I'm playing at Rooster Run today.
Speaker 2: My favorite course.
Speaker 1: This is Golf Smarter episode nine hundred and ninety five.
Speaker 2: Warming up is just to warm up and be ready
Speaker 2: to play that day. Practice is usually to improve some skills.
Speaker 2: I don't want to spend my time doing that when
Speaker 2: I'm warming up. I want to do things that create confidence,
Speaker 2: but just to access balance, and I hit some shots
Speaker 2: with slower tempo, medium temple, faster temple, just to see
Speaker 2: what temple like is functional today because some days my
Speaker 2: body is more tired and I need to calm it down.
Speaker 2: Other days I'm totally alert. My body's sharp back and
Speaker 2: swing faster, so it's a lot of calibration. My warm
Speaker 2: up is more about calibrating and getting my body and
Speaker 2: mind ready for playing the game of off. It's not
Speaker 2: about improving skills, and it's not about like how hit
Speaker 2: it on the range is going to decide how I'm
Speaker 2: going to hit it on the course. Everybody know who's
Speaker 2: played golf long enough, I can hit it extremely well
Speaker 2: and warm up and then I go to the first
Speaker 2: tee and it's gone or the opposite that I feel
Speaker 2: like not good at all on the range and suddenly
Speaker 2: comes together on the course. So it's like no indication
Speaker 2: anyways for what's going to happen. It's about finding my
Speaker 2: best way to just warm up and create confidence.
Speaker 1: Decision making the key to better Smarter golf With Vision
Speaker 1: fifty four's Ian Neilson. This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories,
Speaker 1: tips and insights from great golf minds to help you
Speaker 1: lower your score and raise your golf IQ.
Speaker 2: There's your host, Fred Green.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Golf Smarter Podcast.
Speaker 2: Pia, Hi Fred, Nice to talk to you again.
Speaker 1: It's been so great and we've had this relationship going
Speaker 1: since two thousand and seven, late two thousand and seven,
Speaker 1: like before episode one hundred, so here we are approaching
Speaker 1: one thousand. You were episode ninety eight and Lynn was
Speaker 1: ninety seven, and it's just a great honor to have
Speaker 1: you both appearing on the show and sharing your insights
Speaker 1: and advice. Greatly appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Fred, and thanks for all you do
Speaker 2: for the game here as many years of doing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's a nice contribution that I feel like
Speaker 1: I've been able to make you know, one of the
Speaker 1: in the earliest show you guys, you said something that
Speaker 1: not only have I been quoting probably every round of
Speaker 1: golf that I play with people, but I used it yesterday,
Speaker 1: and that would be the think box and playbox. Although
Speaker 1: I don't know how I caught it to be the
Speaker 1: thought box and shot box Oka, but it kind of works.
Speaker 1: You know, you can go on either one. I want
Speaker 1: to where am I going with it? So there's a
Speaker 1: third element to that, the memory box, which I don't
Speaker 1: remember at all, but I think we should go over it.
Speaker 1: I think it's something that every golfer needs to understand
Speaker 1: to help them get into a better mindset before they
Speaker 1: hit the ball.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And as you said, we call it the
Speaker 2: think box and playbox, but it doesn't really matter what
Speaker 2: words you use as long as oh what the purpose
Speaker 2: of it is. And it was because we found so
Speaker 2: many golfers step up over the shot and they're still thinking, preparing,
Speaker 2: wondering if they have the right club or where's the
Speaker 2: wind coming from, And we just wanted to make that
Speaker 2: distinction that before golf shot you can think, you can
Speaker 2: think about the target and where you're going and what
Speaker 2: kind of shot you're going to hit that you need
Speaker 2: to be like done, you need to have made a decision,
Speaker 2: and then stepping up and being more athletic and you know, feel.
Speaker 2: So it's the separation of preparation and then the performance
Speaker 2: piece because in golfers in general, because it hasn't been trained,
Speaker 2: can be so messy. So it is about the future
Speaker 2: of the shot, the think box, and then the present
Speaker 2: when actually executing, where no thinking cognitive thoughts is going
Speaker 2: to help you. But then we for many years we
Speaker 2: had that, and then we would also golf schools and
Speaker 2: coach and talk about the post shot reaction because it's
Speaker 2: so important how you choose to react two shots, for
Speaker 2: how much confidence you're going to feel and momentum for
Speaker 2: the round. But it was kind of separate. But then
Speaker 2: we realized that's kind of silly because it's this three
Speaker 2: faces to every shot.
Speaker 1: You have it before a.
Speaker 2: Shot, you have it during the shot, you have the
Speaker 2: after the shot. How we actually deal with what just happened.
Speaker 2: So we just decided it's better put those together. It's
Speaker 2: the think box, playbox, memory box, and that's your your
Speaker 2: routine for every golf shot, and it to explore and
Speaker 2: find what is best for me to do in those
Speaker 2: three timeframes.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a perfect explanation. I mean I want to
Speaker 1: ask why, but it should be obvious. The golfers, amateur
Speaker 1: golfers especially, need to get a good rhythm pre during,
Speaker 1: and post shot. Why why is that important?
Speaker 2: Well? Why it's important because you know, you have a
Speaker 2: golf shot and you only have the one golf shot
Speaker 2: you have is the only golf shot. I mean you
Speaker 2: only have one drive off number one hopefully, but I
Speaker 2: mean a shot is unique. You know, you don't like
Speaker 2: your range, I can just see it another one and whatever.
Speaker 2: You have only have one chance. I mean, you have
Speaker 2: one shot, and they're all so different in our game
Speaker 2: because I'm on the golf course. It goes from two
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty yards to fifteen yard pitch shot to putt.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's that variability. So you need to actually
Speaker 2: make a decision for every shot in golf because every
Speaker 2: shot you hit you in the around is going to
Speaker 2: be different. So a decision that you commit to needs
Speaker 2: to be made. And it seems obvious, but many have
Speaker 2: just skipped that part. Yeah, and then and then of course,
Speaker 2: like you know, golf is a game and anyone who
Speaker 2: is going to perform, well, it doesn't matter if it's football, basketball, golf, tennis, whatever.
Speaker 2: While you're performing, you're more athletic, like you see the
Speaker 2: target or you feel something in emotion, you know, longer
Speaker 2: preparing you actually in the moment. But because in golf
Speaker 2: the ball is sitting still waiting for us, many start
Speaker 2: overthinking all the ball absolutely, and so that's why it's
Speaker 2: so important to figure out, you know, what I do
Speaker 2: best when I just feel that calm tempo when I'm
Speaker 2: over the ball, or you know what I do best
Speaker 2: when I do still have an image of the target
Speaker 2: over the ball, or no, what I do best when
Speaker 2: I just sense that constant gret pressure. So you need
Speaker 2: to figure out what helps me that isn't like working
Speaker 2: on a swing change, but playing with the swing I
Speaker 2: got right now and have the best field or sense
Speaker 2: that for the golf shot.
Speaker 1: When I look at a scorecard after the round and
Speaker 1: I see the holes that were issues that contributed to
Speaker 1: a higher score than I had hoped for, I noticed that,
Speaker 1: you know, there's definitely going to be shots in there
Speaker 1: that aren't exactly what I had hoped to accomplish. But
Speaker 1: that doesn't bother me that that happens to every golfer
Speaker 1: at every level. What I see in my scorecard, the
Speaker 1: higher numbers, it's like I made a bad decision. That's
Speaker 1: what stands out to me, is like, see, I just
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have tried to be a hero in this shot.
Speaker 1: I should have you know, I should have taken an
Speaker 1: extra club. I didn't consider the wind. I didn't consider
Speaker 1: the uphill downhill or even how heavy the air is,
Speaker 1: and I made mistakes at that end.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's like after the round, is it's really
Speaker 2: good to just have a little reflection time, like in
Speaker 2: your case there, Like what is the learning here? You know?
Speaker 2: Is it that I'm you know, always go to I
Speaker 2: mean too often to the pin or my routine before
Speaker 2: the shot. I don't check the wind enough. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's really want to do the reflection after the round?
Speaker 2: How can I get better at this in the future.
Speaker 1: So there's the post shot routine and the post round routine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, yeah, definitely what.
Speaker 1: Are the things that we need to think about? I mean,
Speaker 1: why can't I recognize that in my post shot routine
Speaker 1: of like that was a bad decision?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, The thing is that if you start
Speaker 2: to analyze after every shot, you're going to exhaust yourself.
Speaker 2: You know, it's just has to be too much, and
Speaker 2: like one shot is not a trend, so you know.
Speaker 2: So some players can say, you know, just after the shot,
Speaker 2: you know, okay, it went in you know whatever in
Speaker 2: the rough and you know, I didn't consider the wind,
Speaker 2: and then they leave it as such and they move on.
Speaker 2: So some can do it because they do is do
Speaker 2: it easily. But some gets into this too much analyzed
Speaker 2: and thinking while you have a shot to hit in
Speaker 2: one minute, you know. So it's that's where we want
Speaker 2: to explore, and we don't have one way of doing it.
Speaker 2: It depends on a little bit how you are and
Speaker 2: how you play on the course. What is best to
Speaker 2: do after a golf shot? But too much analysis save
Speaker 2: that after the run.
Speaker 1: Right over, analysis leads to paralysis. I guess what they say.
Speaker 1: So tell me give me an update on what's going
Speaker 1: on with Vision fifty four down in Scottsdale. You're talking to.
Speaker 2: Golf course, Yes we are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we have been for quite a while.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we were first like eleven years at
Speaker 2: the Legacy Golf Course here in Phoenix and then now
Speaker 2: we're like twelve or thirteen years at Talking Stick, so
Speaker 2: it's work great, and we like to do a lot
Speaker 2: of our coaching on the course and we have thirty
Speaker 2: six holes there, so it's really good. But anyway, so
Speaker 2: it's doing very well, and we have all kinds of
Speaker 2: different programs for different golfers. But it still amazes us
Speaker 2: that it's not as common yet to teach and coach
Speaker 2: the non technical skills of the game. But we feel
Speaker 2: through our books and now we've created more training books
Speaker 2: and the interest among other coaches that things are happening
Speaker 2: because I think we, along with so many other teachers
Speaker 2: and coaches, we care about growing the game and making
Speaker 2: golfers play better, and we just want the view of
Speaker 2: playing better to be wide enough that of course we
Speaker 2: need to keep developing the technical skills and so I
Speaker 2: can hit the bunker shops the way I want to,
Speaker 2: or put well, or hit it further and all of that,
Speaker 2: but there still is a process of playing the game
Speaker 2: that often get dismissed or not focused on, and we
Speaker 2: just think it's too bad. So we just want the
Speaker 2: fundamentals to be wide enough so if I improve my swing.
Speaker 2: I still know how to play on the golf course
Speaker 2: when I only have one try and I need to
Speaker 2: make a decision, and I need to trust my decision,
Speaker 2: and I need to be athletic, and you know, so
Speaker 2: it belongs to the golf fundamentals to learn both the
Speaker 2: technical and non technical. And we keep on going. Now
Speaker 2: we've done it for a few decades, but just doing
Speaker 2: what we can to shift that paradigm so everybody can
Speaker 2: see it that way, because I don't know anyone who
Speaker 2: can disagree with that there is a process to play
Speaker 2: the game on the course.
Speaker 1: You said that you like to give lessons on the
Speaker 1: course as opposed to just hitting off of the driving range.
Speaker 1: We talk about this a lot on this show, have
Speaker 1: been for decades, and that is that there's a big
Speaker 1: difference between hitting balls and playing golf.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like two different sports.
Speaker 1: It really is. It really is, because when you're hitting balls,
Speaker 1: generally you're hitting its flat. It's you know, if you're
Speaker 1: hitting on grass, there's probably a lot of sand anyway,
Speaker 1: because the way they have to refurbish the grass all
Speaker 1: the time redo it. But why is it that you
Speaker 1: prefer to give your lessons on the course you know,
Speaker 1: in course lessons versus just strictly arranged lessons.
Speaker 2: Well, because the whole point is for everybody who comes
Speaker 2: to see us is that they want to play better
Speaker 2: and some even enjoy it more so, and we know
Speaker 2: how a golfer hits on the range. There's really no
Speaker 2: indication how they hit it on the golf course, so
Speaker 2: we are so much more interested in how is there swing,
Speaker 2: how is their stroke? What happens on the golf course,
Speaker 2: and when we know that, then we can make more
Speaker 2: sense of what to do on the practice area. But
Speaker 2: you know, even the first day at our golf school,
Speaker 2: we don't go on the golf course in the afternoon,
Speaker 2: and we're really careful to keep our mouth shut and
Speaker 2: not say anything about their swing and before we've actually
Speaker 2: seen it in action on the golf course. And so
Speaker 2: it's just like it's kind of a reality check that
Speaker 2: the truth is what happens on the golf course. So
Speaker 2: if I am a coach of the game of golf,
Speaker 2: I need to observe them on the golf course. So
Speaker 2: on the golf course, it could be observing what they
Speaker 2: do and see what's good and what can be better
Speaker 2: from the technique to you know, how they make decisions
Speaker 2: and how they stay focused to the finished Very few
Speaker 2: on the golf course, it was just a few. It's
Speaker 2: very common on the golf course that the swing gets
Speaker 2: abrupted because they're so into the outcome, which doesn't happen
Speaker 2: on the range because it means more so, you know,
Speaker 2: and how they act after the shot, and you know,
Speaker 2: all these things, their pace of play. You know, it's
Speaker 2: really important for us too. So the reality happens out
Speaker 2: there and we want to be coaches to help them,
Speaker 2: and then that helps us what to do when we practice,
Speaker 2: and sometimes we go out and they get to explore. Okay,
Speaker 2: let's try three different things to do in your think
Speaker 2: box to see which one you like, or let's try
Speaker 2: a couple different things in the playbox so they get
Speaker 2: to discover, like this works for me, this doesn't work
Speaker 2: for me. And being on the golf course is totally
Speaker 2: different than being on the pudding green or the range
Speaker 2: because it's more perceived pressure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, another huge advancement that we've had in over the
Speaker 1: decades that we've been doing, these golf simulators have become
Speaker 1: very very popular, to the point where we now have
Speaker 1: a professional level Golf Simulator League TGL, which I'm a
Speaker 1: huge fan of. But how does that impact your instruction
Speaker 1: because people are playing core I'm using air quotes for courses,
Speaker 1: but they're hitting into a screen from a flat spot
Speaker 1: like hitting in the range.
Speaker 2: So I mean, I think it's awesome because it's closer
Speaker 2: to the real thing. You know, it's you know, it's
Speaker 2: still not obviously the same. You don't have the breaks
Speaker 2: between shots, and many times you see them in simulators
Speaker 2: and they kind of skip over the think box, and
Speaker 2: you know they're still most evaluating performance, they're not evaluating
Speaker 2: the process. But through the simulators you can do a
Speaker 2: lot more good practice and good learning. But you still
Speaker 2: need to know what to look for if you're going
Speaker 2: to coach them through the simulators, not just where the
Speaker 2: ball went or how whatever the trajector and all that
Speaker 2: just couldn't see behind.
Speaker 1: That, right, Well, it's also giving you most simulators, especially
Speaker 1: things like track Man and all these other advances here,
Speaker 1: they're giving you a lot of data, a lot of
Speaker 1: information about the ball itself and what it's doing, where
Speaker 1: it's going. Is that helped you or is that something
Speaker 1: that's just an added Is it an added bonus or
Speaker 1: is it an added distraction?
Speaker 2: Both? Well, I think that got a lot of you
Speaker 2: all this awesome technology is like, it's brilliantly good because
Speaker 2: we're not guessing anymore. We actually get real number of
Speaker 2: repacts objective that yes, and we also have to remember
Speaker 2: there's an outer reality and inner reality. So what we
Speaker 2: find those that overuse it today? I mean, if you
Speaker 2: have juniors that have used it too much. For example,
Speaker 2: we can be on the golf course, I ask them, okay,
Speaker 2: tell me the distance to the flag without looking at technology,
Speaker 2: and they can't see the difference between fifteen hundred and
Speaker 2: twenty yards because they haven't even they have never needed
Speaker 2: to train their senses. So if they can be really
Speaker 2: really good player, it's about art and science. So the
Speaker 2: technology is great as long as I still learn to
Speaker 2: know what does it actually mean to trust a golf shot?
Speaker 2: What does it still mean to sense a temple? Because
Speaker 2: sensing a temper is an internal experience that I need
Speaker 2: to know and not just base it on numbers from
Speaker 2: the outside. Or if I want to be super focused
Speaker 2: and totally zero in visualize my ballflight to target, it's
Speaker 2: like an inner experience. So technology is great. Is still
Speaker 2: as long as I still honor this the inner skills
Speaker 2: that is needed that are more subjective. So if I
Speaker 2: have a balance of both, it's really good. But many
Speaker 2: today only go towards technique and technology and dismiss the
Speaker 2: other part, and then it's never going to be optimal.
Speaker 1: Since you guys have started coaching, and you were really,
Speaker 1: I don't want to say, you were the first, but
Speaker 1: highest profile to integrate the whole mind body connection into golf,
Speaker 1: you know, the mental elements of it, the thinking part
Speaker 1: of it, into just swing mechanics where we come from
Speaker 1: Ben Hogan's book and we're just talking about the mechanics,
Speaker 1: and then it started to evolve into mental games, and
Speaker 1: then you know, podcasting started happening and we're talking about
Speaker 1: the mental game a lot here and others as well.
Speaker 1: How has that evolved since you've been coaching the mind
Speaker 1: body connection element or was it always there and just
Speaker 1: didn't talk about it much?
Speaker 2: Well, I think for the greatest players, has always been
Speaker 2: there but never talked about because it's not as obvious
Speaker 2: and you can't like measure it and you can't like
Speaker 2: see it on the screen. So I think among the
Speaker 2: great coaches and great players. He's been there, But then
Speaker 2: we've been led to believe that it's only the outer
Speaker 2: view and taken that really matters. But I think so
Speaker 2: much has happened, but sometimes I feel they can still
Speaker 2: be too separate. Okay, here's my technical coach, and then
Speaker 2: I have this mental coach to help me. But sometimes
Speaker 2: they're just too separate. I think we in God, as
Speaker 2: golf coaches golf teachers, we need to honor that big picture.
Speaker 2: So the golfers from the beginning always get to mixture. Okay,
Speaker 2: we can work on this. You know. I want you
Speaker 2: at home, in front of you a mirror, to work
Speaker 2: on these positions and these drills. But you know, when
Speaker 2: you go and play golf, we want to help you
Speaker 2: with with you know, how you can make a decision,
Speaker 2: the feel you can have during your swing, and so
Speaker 2: we like integrate it into anything we're doing. And that
Speaker 2: integration is not as solid today yet.
Speaker 1: Are you and Lynn as coaching partners and business partners.
Speaker 1: Do you each have your own specialty or you each
Speaker 1: cover both the mental and the physical side of playing golf,
Speaker 1: or one focuses more on the other.
Speaker 2: Well, I know I would I would say we you know,
Speaker 2: we totally have one hundred percent in the same vision
Speaker 2: and beliefs about what we're doing and what we think
Speaker 2: the future needs, and we reflect and talk about it
Speaker 2: a lot because we want to you know, probably Lynn
Speaker 2: is my biggest critiquer and you know, question what we're
Speaker 2: doing and meet to her. So we have that. But
Speaker 2: then I came originally more from the background as a player,
Speaker 2: having played on tour and all of that, and Lynn
Speaker 2: has an even stronger background as a technical teacher, So
Speaker 2: our original background is a little bit different like that,
Speaker 2: even though Lena has still played a lot and I've
Speaker 2: you know, since then, also have PGA education technical education,
Speaker 2: so we like Lin has done more in the past
Speaker 2: club fitting that I have, So we come from a
Speaker 2: different little different background and when we you know, when
Speaker 2: we but when we coach and the things we developed
Speaker 2: so we can know that someplace it's going to listen
Speaker 2: stronger to learn in some place, but listen stronger to me.
Speaker 2: So we just need to have no ego involved with that.
Speaker 2: And realizing that that we have two voices and we
Speaker 2: have other coaches too, that we have more voices to
Speaker 2: the same message makes it even better. But we couldn't
Speaker 2: function as a as a company and with a clear
Speaker 2: philosophy if we didn't one hundred percent agree on what
Speaker 2: we're doing and how we're doing it.
Speaker 1: So, speaking of philosophy, explain why the company is called
Speaker 1: Vision fifty four.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. Actually when we started our company we
Speaker 2: call it Coaching for the Future, and still our incorporated name,
Speaker 2: and because it was coaching for the future, but then
Speaker 2: many thought we only did coach training. So when the
Speaker 2: fifty four comes from when I, in another lifetime was
Speaker 2: head of our Swedish national teams and we started this
Speaker 2: fifty four thinking because many of those Swedish players at
Speaker 2: that time had very limiting beliefs about what they can
Speaker 2: do in the future, being from this cold weather country
Speaker 2: and so far behind so many nations. So the fifty
Speaker 2: four realizing to get them to be like a little
Speaker 2: bit more believing in the future, we asked them, okay,
Speaker 2: on your home course, the best score in each hole?
Speaker 2: What have you shot? And actually some have made birders
Speaker 2: in every hole at one time or another, So we
Speaker 2: just brought it up as a future possibility. What would
Speaker 2: it take in the future during the same around, Just
Speaker 2: let's say it would be possible. So how do you
Speaker 2: need to swing, how do you need to train, how
Speaker 2: fit you need to be? We just start going if
Speaker 2: you know, we believe it could happen. We don't know
Speaker 2: which which centuries can happen, doesn't matter. We just think
Speaker 2: it's humanly possible and let's go towards that. And it's
Speaker 2: very good for us coaches to because who do we
Speaker 2: need to be and what do we need to know
Speaker 2: to support that process. So the vision fifty four is
Speaker 2: just it's not about being disappointed if I don't shoot
Speaker 2: fifty four. It's about it's about believing and possibilities and
Speaker 2: going for it. So it's it's it's changed our whole culture.
Speaker 2: And you know, obviously anic A certains Time is one
Speaker 2: of the famous one who was part of when we
Speaker 2: start first started this, and she always had that in
Speaker 2: the back of her mind striving towards that. And she
Speaker 2: was the first woman and it's the first woman to
Speaker 2: have ever shot fifty nine.
Speaker 1: So maybe amazing. No, you wouldn't be disappointed like shooting
Speaker 1: fifty four, but shooting fifty five any golfer, you know,
Speaker 1: I just missed that one pot I could have had
Speaker 1: a fifty But I only had a fifty five. It's
Speaker 1: just the nature of golfer, isn't it as it.
Speaker 2: Is fifty four? Said tarn It. I could have made
Speaker 2: an ego there on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Have you seen any of what Bryson
Speaker 1: Deshamba has done on YouTube with his break fifty series?
Speaker 2: No, I haven't.
Speaker 1: Actually do you know about it? Are you familiar with it?
Speaker 2: I mean a little bit?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, where he goes and he'll play. I love
Speaker 1: this concept. Instead of competing against my friends, it's like,
Speaker 1: let's team up, right, and what he does is he
Speaker 1: gets somebody, they play the front ties and they try
Speaker 1: to break fifty right, and you know, with Bryson's length
Speaker 1: and accuracy, they get close, but they I don't think
Speaker 1: they've done it yet. I think it's very entertaining, and
Speaker 1: I've told my friends, I said, let's do this instead
Speaker 1: of competing this week, let's partner up, play from a
Speaker 1: different tea box, closer tea box, and see if we
Speaker 1: could shoot par Yeah, I know, combine our scores and
Speaker 1: see if we could we just shoot par and if
Speaker 1: we do, then let's try to break seventy. Let's you know,
Speaker 1: it's like set that goal i'll see a team.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I super like it, and it gives so
Speaker 2: much more positivity outlook in playing the game that I
Speaker 2: think is really healthy.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, So how is the state of the game
Speaker 1: from your perspective? These days? We'll say, let's start with
Speaker 1: amateur play and we'll go from there. But what is
Speaker 1: the state of the game from your perspective?
Speaker 2: I think you know, it's growing a really healthy way.
Speaker 2: But I feel like because of the growth in technology
Speaker 2: and tech knowledge about technique and the body swing connection
Speaker 2: which is advanced a lot, but we also get many
Speaker 2: that they get higher level of confusion because we look
Speaker 2: at the amateurs, so we call it the real golfers
Speaker 2: of the game. They get all these suggestions through technology
Speaker 2: and technique, but most amateurs they understand that, but they
Speaker 2: honestly don't have time to actually practice to make changes
Speaker 2: that are suggested. And they keep saying, oh, yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: going to do it, But the bottom line is that
Speaker 2: they have jobs, have families that have other things. So
Speaker 2: many go about things that are accurate, but it's not
Speaker 2: realistic they're going to make those changes and get it
Speaker 2: to function on the golf course because they don't have
Speaker 2: enough they don't have the time that the professional player
Speaker 2: has to make that happen. So I think it's really
Speaker 2: important to be honest about that. If I don't have
Speaker 2: those hours to make the changes needed, what can I
Speaker 2: still do to my game to play better?
Speaker 1: It makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot
Speaker 1: of sense. I think people will take a lesson going okay,
Speaker 1: I'm all good now, and then they don't practice it.
Speaker 1: But they may just want to say, what is it
Speaker 1: that I can do without this amount of practice and
Speaker 1: still try to improve my game? And I think a
Speaker 1: lot of that ends up being talking about next free shot,
Speaker 1: post shot.
Speaker 2: That's what we're saying. We're seen like remarkable improvements in
Speaker 2: players game because and we have like one two day
Speaker 2: golf school that is it's only on course. We don't
Speaker 2: even go on the range more than warm up. And
Speaker 2: it's for those players that never practice anyways. All they
Speaker 2: do is maybe warm up and they play. So let's
Speaker 2: do a golf school where we just meet that reality
Speaker 2: and help them how to steal advance to golf games.
Speaker 1: So what is the difference between warming up and practicing?
Speaker 2: It's a big, big difference. Warming Up is just to
Speaker 2: warm up and be ready to play the play that day.
Speaker 2: In a practice is usually to improve some skills.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 2: I don't want to spend my time doing that when
Speaker 2: I'm warming up. I want to do things that create confidence,
Speaker 2: you know. So warming up is you know today obviously
Speaker 2: for many to stretch and warm up the body. But
Speaker 2: then you know, we always like offers too, because our
Speaker 2: bodies are different every day, depending on how slap potter eight,
Speaker 2: what I've been doing working out not working out. I mean,
Speaker 2: our bodies are always variable. So to hit some shots
Speaker 2: to making sure my balance is good if I hit
Speaker 2: two feet together or you know, one foot, but just
Speaker 2: to access balance, and I hit some shots with slower tempo,
Speaker 2: medium temper, faster temple, just to see what temple like
Speaker 2: is functional today, because some days my body is more
Speaker 2: tired and I need to like calm it down. Other
Speaker 2: days I'm totally alert, my body is sharp back and
Speaker 2: swing faster. So it's a lot of calibration and making
Speaker 2: sure my attention level is good. So my warm up
Speaker 2: is more about calibrating and getting my body in mind
Speaker 2: ready for playing the game of golf. It's not about
Speaker 2: improving skills, and it's not about like how hit it
Speaker 2: on the range is going to decide I'm going to
Speaker 2: hit it on the course because everybody knows it who
Speaker 2: has played golf long enough. I can hit it extremely
Speaker 2: well and warm up, and then I go to the
Speaker 2: first tea and it's like it's gone, or the opposite
Speaker 2: that I feel like not good at all on the
Speaker 2: range and suddenly comes together on the course. So it's
Speaker 2: like no indication anyways for what's going to happen. So
Speaker 2: it's about finding my best way to just warm up
Speaker 2: and create confidence. There's the only thing that matters and
Speaker 2: warm up.
Speaker 1: Have you had a chance to see TGL I have
Speaker 1: done it a little bit, I have. What do you think, Well.
Speaker 2: I think I think it's really you know, fun. I
Speaker 2: like real, real, real golf, and like major competitions more.
Speaker 2: But I think this is But.
Speaker 1: That's also a long, major time commitment too to watch
Speaker 1: and play.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think it's you know, it's been really
Speaker 2: really fun great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but so with actual playing and watching it, there's
Speaker 1: been a lot of controversy about pace of play lately
Speaker 1: in comments any suggestions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, actually, we yeah, actually a lot because it's something
Speaker 2: you know, we've cared about for decades and every golf
Speaker 2: school what every player focus on, and so actually put
Speaker 2: together a pdf last week and we send out to
Speaker 2: coaches and magazine because I send it to you later on. Yes,
Speaker 2: because we think sometimes when they focus on they focus
Speaker 2: mostly on how we can you know, restrict times over
Speaker 2: the shots and time for the round and all of that.
Speaker 2: But we think it has to do with coaches need
Speaker 2: to pay more attention to players' routines to be sustainable,
Speaker 2: and I think that is just skipped over. So care
Speaker 2: about it a lot. We did one interview with Golf
Speaker 2: Global Golf Post about it and with golf dot com too,
Speaker 2: because they knew that we have been coaching the pace
Speaker 2: of play and cared about it for a long, long
Speaker 2: long time.
Speaker 1: M hm. And on TGL they have that forty second
Speaker 1: shot clock.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1: It's really good.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And it adds pressure yeah, which is great, awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean I've watched every episode so far and the
Speaker 1: only time that the shot clock has been come into
Speaker 1: play is Tiger putting. It was one time he just
Speaker 1: let it lapse, which was pretty wonderful to see him.
Speaker 1: I've loved watching Tiger because he's really been vulnerable during it.
Speaker 1: So that's been phenomenal. So you've got a new series
Speaker 1: of books Between Shots, which joins Signature Swing and performance routine.
Speaker 1: Between Shots is the new one, right, yes, can you define?
Speaker 1: You know there's an element in there of manage your body,
Speaker 1: manage your mind, manage your emotions, and then the variability.
Speaker 1: Let's pick them up a little bit at a time. Here,
Speaker 1: start with manage your body.
Speaker 2: Yeah and yeah, first one to say, you know, with
Speaker 2: the books you mentioned now, the main reason we did
Speaker 2: it is because our big published books, you know, we've
Speaker 2: been fortunate, they've been going so well. But there is
Speaker 2: so much material that we couldn't include to make it
Speaker 2: an easy read book, and the many exercises we couldn't
Speaker 2: include because it doesn't fit into a book like that.
Speaker 2: So we decided to self publish this. We call them
Speaker 2: training books where we can just include those that want
Speaker 2: to deep dive into think fox, playbox, memory box. Okay,
Speaker 2: here we got everything we know about this and all
Speaker 2: the exercises we know and for balanced temple and tension
Speaker 2: the same thing. So the between shot is and I
Speaker 2: think it's an area that many golfers haven't really even
Speaker 2: thought about because and you can't really practice it on
Speaker 2: the range. But you know, in golf, we spend three
Speaker 2: and a half plus hours between shots, so it's a
Speaker 2: lot of time that that time can either help you
Speaker 2: play better or it really hurts your game. And we
Speaker 2: say like between shots and the things that matter is
Speaker 2: that I make sure I spend enough time recharging so
Speaker 2: I can keep the focus for eighteen holes, and that
Speaker 2: I also make myself ready for the next time I'm
Speaker 2: going to hit the golf shot. And the third area
Speaker 2: is that we're always going to be variable. We're never
Speaker 2: going to be consistent as a human being playing the
Speaker 2: game of golf. So there is can be veriability that
Speaker 2: suddenly I get tight and tense because it's windy, or
Speaker 2: or you know, I'm thinking too much about work right now,
Speaker 2: so I'm all scattered suddenly on the backside, I mean,
Speaker 2: there always can be variability. So between shots, is this
Speaker 2: time to actually be more aware of is there anything
Speaker 2: I need to manage right now? Am I getting irritated
Speaker 2: because pace of play is slow? Or you know, you
Speaker 2: need to have a little awareness so you can become
Speaker 2: a better player and you can like bounce back and
Speaker 2: you might look more consistent because you manage the variability.
Speaker 2: So we think it's like a huge area to just
Speaker 2: find a few things that that can really really help me.
Speaker 2: So I just want to give that overview first.
Speaker 1: Good, Now let's talk about managing your body.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so then when it comes to the body, we
Speaker 2: know and if you play golf and go on the
Speaker 2: golf court, can guarantee you you can be tighten your hips.
Speaker 2: Sitting in the golf court so many between shots, they
Speaker 2: might know, you know, having three holes or six holes,
Speaker 2: I need to do a little stretching or losing up
Speaker 2: or being aware of I've been sitting a lot now
Speaker 2: waiting on the tea box of other players. I need
Speaker 2: to know do I need to loosen my shoulders some
Speaker 2: or do I need to do this for my hips.
Speaker 2: You need to have some awareness of how do I
Speaker 2: keep my body athletic through the round of golf even
Speaker 2: though I might be standing still or sitting still. And
Speaker 2: another thing with the body is that it's common. It's
Speaker 2: like my adrenaline level. You know, sometimes I can get
Speaker 2: so worked up because maybe I'm on my way to
Speaker 2: the lowest round ever, or the opposite, I'm super sluggish
Speaker 2: because it's slow places early in the morning, so you
Speaker 2: know what, I need to walk a little peppier here.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's geography a little bit, or I might do
Speaker 2: need the opposite. I need to take deep breath and
Speaker 2: calm myself down because I'm just too you work it
Speaker 2: up in my body. So, I mean, there's so many things. Obviously,
Speaker 2: the obvious thing is, you know what are you drinking
Speaker 2: and eating between shots to keep that energy level? So
Speaker 2: I was going to bring that up depending on like
Speaker 2: your level of golf and your ambition in golf, the
Speaker 2: between the shots. If I'm only playing golf because I
Speaker 2: don't care about performance and I'm only here to have
Speaker 2: fun with my friends, and maybe you don't need to
Speaker 2: do anything. But if I care about playing well, you
Speaker 2: should just look into you know what is something that
Speaker 2: actually helps my body stay athletic and be good for
Speaker 2: all eighteen holes.
Speaker 1: That's an excellent point. It's about if you care or not,
Speaker 1: because you know there are people out there who they're
Speaker 1: they're not focused on their hydration, they're not focused on
Speaker 1: the nutrition. They're drinking coffee and dehydrating, they're drinking alcohol
Speaker 1: and really not paying attention. But it's for those podcasts
Speaker 1: for people who would listen to podcasts about this, they
Speaker 1: care about this. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's that's beauty of the game that we can
Speaker 2: have so many different like we call the spirit of
Speaker 2: the game, the reason you play the game. Those that
Speaker 2: part of playing the game is that I want to
Speaker 2: be a good performer. Then it's good to check in
Speaker 2: on us.
Speaker 1: And then you have managed the mind and managed the emotions.
Speaker 1: Those are two you have was listed as different elements.
Speaker 1: Can you explain why?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the mind for us is more you know,
Speaker 2: the the both the cognitive parties. Am I thinking too
Speaker 2: far in the future? Am I focusing on the past?
Speaker 2: Am I like scattered? Or am I totally focusing on
Speaker 2: only my shot? Or do I still focus about who
Speaker 2: is watching me? So it's managing that, you know, direction
Speaker 2: on my mind and if I can stay focused during
Speaker 2: the whole swing and so between shots, it would be
Speaker 2: for many. I mean some have a tendency I can
Speaker 2: have that I can easily go too far in the future,
Speaker 2: like ooh, my irons better. There are a couple of
Speaker 2: power fource it's going to be tough coming up and like, ah,
Speaker 2: bring yourself back.
Speaker 1: You even get caught up in that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just feel your feet walking here now, and you know,
Speaker 2: I'll look at the trees and get yourself back depresent
Speaker 2: or you know, some hang out in the past all
Speaker 2: the time, like why why did I miss that put?
Speaker 2: Or you know that's an easy wed shot in so
Speaker 2: you're just wasting energy. So it's just doing some exercise
Speaker 2: and being aware of like am I good at being
Speaker 2: in charge of where my mind is? And if you're
Speaker 2: going to be a peak performer in golf, it's a
Speaker 2: good thing because between shots it conspiral to really bad stuff,
Speaker 2: you know, being irritated other players, very irritated with you know,
Speaker 2: all kinds of stuff. So emotions is more like am
Speaker 2: I feeling calm and peaceful and confident or am I
Speaker 2: anxious frustrated? It's it's you know, the emotions, and sometimes
Speaker 2: emotions come from the thoughts I have, And sometimes I
Speaker 2: just get emotions because I have a memory of missing
Speaker 2: this shot last week at the same spot, and the
Speaker 2: emotions start and then it triggers thoughts. So it's just
Speaker 2: knowing that if I have too much negative emotions between shots,
Speaker 2: and it's so good to learn from science. I'm going
Speaker 2: to lose access to a lot of my abilities. It's
Speaker 2: just we go more to fight and flight and I
Speaker 2: don't and I can't afford that. Am I going to
Speaker 2: be a good performer? So it's recognized and I'm getting frustrated, irritated. Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm going to go to getting myself to a commerce
Speaker 2: state or whatever, more confident state and use my body
Speaker 2: maybe to help me and manage that. Because the emotions
Speaker 2: is going to fluctuate. I just need to figure out
Speaker 2: what is it that makes me play really awesome.
Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing that I see creeping into both the
Speaker 1: mind element and the emotions element is pace of play,
Speaker 1: which we talked about a little bit. But how does
Speaker 1: slow pace of play affect the amateur golfer? And then
Speaker 1: what's the cure to not let it bother you?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, some slow play doesn't affect them at all,
Speaker 2: Because he said, I'm only playing with my friends, and
Speaker 2: I like this golf course and I paid a lot
Speaker 2: of money to play it, so I wanted to take
Speaker 2: six hours. You know, they're probably nobody does, but anyway,
Speaker 2: so you know it does because if you play with
Speaker 2: plays that you feel are very very slow, it can
Speaker 2: get you really irritated. You know, you start having all
Speaker 2: the self talk and emotions and it's going to get
Speaker 2: your body tight, or you can start rushing and making
Speaker 2: up for them being slow. I mean that happens a
Speaker 2: lot all the time. So I think every golfer needs
Speaker 2: to know how long time their routine takes the preparation.
Speaker 2: Think box in the playbox. I think it's really important.
Speaker 2: And you know, we have a goal to keep it
Speaker 2: thirty seconds in under and it's just that the time
Speaker 2: that the LPGA is used for a long time that
Speaker 2: you have an average of thirty seconds per shot, and
Speaker 2: I don't think we need more than that. But many today,
Speaker 2: especially think box because of so much more technology that
Speaker 2: there's so many ways of measuring the distance. You know,
Speaker 2: you might have it on your watch, you might have
Speaker 2: you know, your bush and hel glasses, you have sprinkler heads,
Speaker 2: you have screens in your cart. They can be like
Speaker 2: a cillion different ways of doing that. And there are
Speaker 2: many systems how to check green reading and all of
Speaker 2: these things. But then players to and players try to
Speaker 2: do all of that all the time, and it's like
Speaker 2: it doesn't work, it's not sustainable because they usually lose
Speaker 2: access to their own instinct and feel over time because
Speaker 2: there's so much up in the numbers.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 2: They get you know, you get tired and done basically.
Speaker 2: But we don't know anyone who wants to be slow.
Speaker 2: They have just never been aware of it or coached
Speaker 2: how to do it different so they can so they
Speaker 2: can be more efficient, but also play as good or
Speaker 2: better doing it in a more simplified way. For example,
Speaker 2: we we can have many that you know, there we
Speaker 2: go on the golf course and they start having you know,
Speaker 2: two three four practice wings. We never saw that on
Speaker 2: the range, but suddenly on the course and they do
Speaker 2: two three four practice wings. So you know, I after
Speaker 2: one whole used to ask cluck, okay, so what's the
Speaker 2: intention for those practice wings? And then depending on the answer,
Speaker 2: just try to help them sort it out and how
Speaker 2: can you actually accomplish that in one And you know,
Speaker 2: we usually say if they're player shooting ninety, you know,
Speaker 2: if you also make three practice wing, that's ninety plus
Speaker 2: two hundred and seventy. It's a lot of swingings anyway,
Speaker 2: So but they haven't thought about that, or some think
Speaker 2: a practice swing it needs to be perfect before I
Speaker 2: can move on, And like that belief is like never good.
Speaker 2: But what I'm saying is, this is this area that
Speaker 2: most golfers haven't really reflected on and they haven't had
Speaker 2: any coaching to help them sort it out and make
Speaker 2: it more functional on the golf course. So I think
Speaker 2: it's really really important. And I said, like, let's try
Speaker 2: for three holes. You know, you can get a feed
Speaker 2: for the swing and move your body, but let's just
Speaker 2: not do in the practice swings. Just you see what
Speaker 2: it would be like. And then some discover like, wow,
Speaker 2: I like that better, or some realize that no, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's good, but I just want something a little bit.
Speaker 2: So we just need to work it out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that if you start practicing your
Speaker 1: own think box playbox that you don't need as long
Speaker 1: as you do it consistently, you shouldn't have to be
Speaker 1: self conscious about feeling like you're holding up the because
Speaker 1: if they see you're doing your routine on the first
Speaker 1: second hal you know, first four or five shots, that's
Speaker 1: your rhythm and you don't have to be self conscious
Speaker 1: about it, people will like start accepting it's like okay,
Speaker 1: that's his pace of play.
Speaker 2: Well as as long as it doesn't take too.
Speaker 1: Long Yeah, yeah, of course, of course.
Speaker 2: But I want another thing about the routine that is
Speaker 2: really important for us. Sure, the only thing that matters
Speaker 2: about this we talk about the pre shot routine now,
Speaker 2: is that I made a decision and I have an
Speaker 2: internal go signal whatever that is. So that's what's important.
Speaker 2: It's not that I always do the exact same outer routine,
Speaker 2: because what I'm saying is like I normally don't make
Speaker 2: practice wing, but if I have like a shot around
Speaker 2: the green, or I'm going to have a certain lie,
Speaker 2: i might make a practice wing whatever to get the field,
Speaker 2: but it's just to get the go signal. So I
Speaker 2: can have a structure, but it is with flexibility because
Speaker 2: what I'm saying this is because we can have many
Speaker 2: more lead players that have been taught. If they do
Speaker 2: the same exact routine from the outside looking, it's always
Speaker 2: going to work. And we know that's not true because
Speaker 2: it's what you feel inside that needs to be feel
Speaker 2: really awesome, like I got this. I know what I'm doing,
Speaker 2: and I feel what I'm doing. I'm ready to go.
Speaker 2: So sometimes that can happen in different ways. But if
Speaker 2: I still feel like I still need to step off
Speaker 2: this Pat, I still need to do practice wing because
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to. I might I might be too late.
Speaker 2: I lost that go signal.
Speaker 1: You mentioned a few minutes ago that your books, these
Speaker 1: three books in this series are self published. Where can
Speaker 1: we find.
Speaker 2: Them on Amazon or Buns and Noble.
Speaker 1: Great. Oh so it's not just on your website, but
Speaker 1: it is available at Amazon and then the website Vision fifty
Speaker 1: four dot com. You got it, and check out the schools.
Speaker 1: If you want some of the best instruction the world
Speaker 1: has to offer, you should definitely check out Vision fifty
Speaker 1: four because Lynn and Pia are superheroes in the game
Speaker 1: of Game Improvement World.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's really nice of you.
Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you again. It's great to talk to you,
Speaker 1: and it's always a joy to talk to you, and
Speaker 1: I really value your time. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Thank you Fred, Thanks for all you do for the game.