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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
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Speaker 4: Good Evening, Paris, eighteen eighty nine. Marguerite Stenhall is a
Speaker 4: woman with ambition that having been born into a middle
Speaker 4: class family and trapped in a marriage to a failed
Speaker 4: artist twenty years her senior, she knows her options are limited.
Speaker 4: Determined to fashion herself into a new woman, Meg orchestrates
Speaker 4: a scandalous plan with her most powerful resource, her body.
Speaker 4: Amid the dazzling glamour, art and romance of bourgeois Paris,
Speaker 4: she takes elite men as their lovers, charming her way
Speaker 4: into the good graces of the rich and powerful. Her ambitions, though,
Speaker 4: go far beyond becoming the most desirable woman in Paris.
Speaker 4: At her core, she's a woman determined to conquer French
Speaker 4: high society. But the game she plays is a perilous one.
Speaker 4: Navigating misogynists, double standards, public scrutiny, and political intrigue, she
Speaker 4: has soon vaulted into infamy in the most dangerous way possible.
Speaker 4: A real life femme fetale, Meg influences government positions and
Speaker 4: resorts to blackmail and maybe even poisoning to get her way,
Speaker 4: leaving a trail of death and disaster in her wake.
Speaker 4: She earns the name the Red Widow for mysteriously surviving
Speaker 4: a home invasion that leads both her husband and mother dead.
Speaker 4: With the police baffled and the public enraged, make breaks
Speaker 4: every rule in the bourgeois handbook and becomes the most
Speaker 4: notorious woman in Paris. The book that we're featuring this
Speaker 4: evening is The Red Widow, The Scandal that shook Paris
Speaker 4: and the woman behind it all, with my special guest,
Speaker 4: historian and author Sarah Horowitz. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 4: thank you very much for this interview. Sarah Horowitz, Thank you.
Speaker 5: So much for having me. I'm so thrilled to be
Speaker 5: on your show.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, and congratulations on this very extraordinary book,
Speaker 4: The Red Widow. Let's get right to who this incredible
Speaker 4: woman was. She was born Marguerite Jean Jeppie And in
Speaker 4: eighteen sixty nine, and her father's name was Edward and
Speaker 4: her mother Emily tell us about her life growing up.
Speaker 5: Yes, so she has a really interesting childhood. Her father
Speaker 5: is a member of this very powerful and large industrial
Speaker 5: dynasty in France, at the Jeppee firm, and so he's
Speaker 5: quite wealthy. He's a member of the bourgeoisie. But he
Speaker 5: always misbehaves in some ways that maybe, you know, we
Speaker 5: are fine and in some ways that are not so fine,
Speaker 5: both by our standards and the standards of the day.
Speaker 5: And so when he's twenty six, he falls in love
Speaker 5: with a fourteen year old girl who is the son
Speaker 5: who's the daughter of tavern keepers, so a very humble background,
Speaker 5: and his family is aghast. He marries her two years later.
Speaker 5: So there is I think a twelve year difference between
Speaker 5: the two of them, as well as a considerable class
Speaker 5: difference between them, and they were shocked very much by
Speaker 5: the class difference, although we of course would be very
Speaker 5: shocked and are very shocked by the considerable age difference
Speaker 5: between the two. They have four children, of whom Marguerite
Speaker 5: is one of them, as you say, born in eighteen
Speaker 5: sixty nine, and they live in Beaucour, which is this
Speaker 5: town in eastern France that is very much dominated by
Speaker 5: the Jappie family, and so they have this very Margareite
Speaker 5: grows up with this very interesting existence. On the one hand,
Speaker 5: she is part of the most dominant family of the
Speaker 5: town and lives in this sort of very beautiful chateau.
Speaker 5: But the larger family always holds Edward and Emily and
Speaker 5: their children, including Marguerite, a part because of the sort
Speaker 5: of scandalous nature of Edward and Emily's marriage, and her
Speaker 5: father is a very bad manager of money. Marguerite or
Speaker 5: Meg as she comes to be known, is clearly his favorite,
Speaker 5: and she absolutely adores him. She loves her mother, I think,
Speaker 5: although has a sort of more somewhat more distant relationship
Speaker 5: with her mother. She's often quite disappointed in her mother,
Speaker 5: and so I think they're relationship between father and daughters
Speaker 5: quite complicated and quite possibly quite troubling. There are lots
Speaker 5: of rumors that fly around the town that Edward was
Speaker 5: sexually abusing Meg. I don't, obviously, you can't know if
Speaker 5: that's true, but it does seem clear, even from her
Speaker 5: own accounts, that there was some sort of sexual charge
Speaker 5: to their relationship. She Marguerite falls in love with a
Speaker 5: young army officer when she's in her teens. The army
Speaker 5: officer is a friend of her brothers, is very charming.
Speaker 5: Everyone loves him. He comes to stay at the house
Speaker 5: a lot, and he and Marguerite hope that they can
Speaker 5: marry and maybe sort of like get engaged in secret
Speaker 5: at a time when engagements were not supposed to be
Speaker 5: secret and were something that was carefully scripted by families
Speaker 5: and carefully managed by bourgeois families. There also is some
Speaker 5: evidence that they have sex before marriage, which is a
Speaker 5: huge no no. Her father finds this out lies into
Speaker 5: a rage and sends her to live with her older
Speaker 5: sister across France, so on the other side of France.
Speaker 5: And then her father dies soon after, quite tragically and
Speaker 5: quite suddenly, and it seems maybe that the stress of
Speaker 5: what he sees as his favorite daughter's betrayal really undoes him.
Speaker 5: But this leaves Marguerite in a very perilous situation. So
Speaker 5: there's increasing financial strain because her father has died, her
Speaker 5: mother really can't manage all the work it would take
Speaker 5: to marry her off well. And of course there's a
Speaker 5: huge scandal in her hometown about her relationship with this
Speaker 5: young army officer, So She is, however, pursued by a
Speaker 5: man named Adel Stenel, who's an artist who's about twice
Speaker 5: her age and is seems clearly very in love with
Speaker 5: her and absolutely smitten. She is not with him, but
Speaker 5: I think she has a few other options and is
Speaker 5: facing a lot of pressure from her family to marry him.
Speaker 5: So she marries him in eighteen ninety and goes to
Speaker 5: live with him in Paris, in his home where he
Speaker 5: lives the life of a sort of not terribly successful artist.
Speaker 5: I would call it a middle class life. She doesn't
Speaker 5: have to She's never going to go hungry, but it's
Speaker 5: not going to be particularly glamorous. The relationship is not happy.
Speaker 5: She's very ambitious, he's very passive. He's very much in
Speaker 5: love with her. She is always sort of iffy about him.
Speaker 5: And also he is having affairs with both men and women,
Speaker 5: and those affairs with men really horrify her. For many
Speaker 5: people of the day, male homosexuality was absolutely horrifying, and
Speaker 5: so she wants to get a divorce very early on,
Speaker 5: soon after the birth of their first and only child,
Speaker 5: but he convinces her not to. Part of the reason
Speaker 5: is that divorce at the time was so scandalous, and
Speaker 5: so it was seen as scandalous that kind of last resort,
Speaker 5: and would have required airing the family's dirty laundry, including
Speaker 5: her husband's affairs with men. So that they decide to
Speaker 5: stay married, live fairly independent, lives in the same home,
Speaker 5: and he basically promises that he will allow her to
Speaker 5: have affairs as far as I can tell, And so
Speaker 5: she starts off on a course of affairs with very
Speaker 5: prominent Parisians, starting with her husband's best friend, who's a
Speaker 5: very prominent former jurist. He was essentially the former Attorney
Speaker 5: General of Paris, and he introduces her to this world
Speaker 5: of high society that she absolutely adores. So there's this
Speaker 5: young woman, she's in her early twenties. She's very beautiful,
Speaker 5: she's very very charming, she's very seductive, she loves male attention,
Speaker 5: and she does quite well for herself in Parisian high society,
Speaker 5: having a string of affairs, particularly with men in the judiciary,
Speaker 5: and the arrangement she strikes with them is fairly unusual.
Speaker 5: That they will buy a painting from her husband and
Speaker 5: in return she will have an affair with them. So
Speaker 5: this means that she never has to directly trade sex
Speaker 5: for money and is also a way of boosting her
Speaker 5: husband's career and indirectly her family's prestige. And she's very
Speaker 5: famous because in eighteen ninety seven she starts having affair,
Speaker 5: an affair with a president of France at the time,
Speaker 5: Felix Fauch, and she's absolutely smitten with her, and he
Speaker 5: sends huge sums of money her to her husband to
Speaker 5: buy this not very great art to finance their relationship.
Speaker 5: And what Marguerite and faux are perhaps most famous for
Speaker 5: is in February of eighteen eighty nine, he has a
Speaker 5: stroke during one of their sexual encounters. Legend has it
Speaker 5: at the height at the climax of one of their
Speaker 5: sexual encounters, but I don't know if that's sexually true,
Speaker 5: and then dies of it a few hours later. This
Speaker 5: is of course very embarrassing to her and it never
Speaker 5: makes it into the press, or at least she's never
Speaker 5: named in the press, but everyone in Paris knows about this.
Speaker 5: She becomes as a result of their affair even more famous.
Speaker 5: You know, people are really excited because they see her
Speaker 5: as this very talented lover who is so good that
Speaker 5: she just might kill you, right, and she has a
Speaker 5: series of affairs with very prominent, very powerful men, including industrialists,
Speaker 5: some evidence of some kind of you know, members of
Speaker 5: royal families. And she has these affairs, but her system
Speaker 5: is really faltering. By nineteen oh eight, she and her
Speaker 5: husband are increasingly at odds with each other. She wants
Speaker 5: to divorce them, and the family is also increasing lee
Speaker 5: under financial strain. She's having some trouble keeping lovers. And
Speaker 5: so this is nineteen oh eight, and in May thirty first,
Speaker 5: nineteen oh eight, her valet wakes up in the morning,
Speaker 5: comes down to the second floor of their house, finds
Speaker 5: her husband and her mother, who had been staying with them, strangled,
Speaker 5: and Marguerite tied to the bed with a gag by
Speaker 5: her side, calling out for help. And so the police
Speaker 5: come very rapidly. They start this search, and Marguerite is
Speaker 5: the only survivor of this attack and the only witness,
Speaker 5: and she says that three robed men and a redheaded
Speaker 5: woman entered the house. They thought it was empty, they
Speaker 5: were intending to rob it. They realize that the residents
Speaker 5: of the house are still there. They kill her mother
Speaker 5: and her husband, but they spare her life, thinking that
Speaker 5: she is the adolescent daughter. And this is a very
Speaker 5: improbable tale from the beginning. I mean, you know, Marguerite
Speaker 5: is sort of on the verge of forty. The idea
Speaker 5: that she would be mistaken for an adolescent is one problem,
Speaker 5: But there are also no signs of forced entry in
Speaker 5: the house. There are no signs of struggle on the
Speaker 5: corpses of either her husband or her mother. There's really
Speaker 5: there are valuables that are left in plain sight in
Speaker 5: the house, including just cash lying out there. And the
Speaker 5: house is really not in disarray. You know, it looks
Speaker 5: like some drawers have been rifled through, and so, you know,
Speaker 5: people read this report and think she has to be lying,
Speaker 5: and I think any of us would also think she
Speaker 5: has to be lying. It can't have been an intrusion.
Speaker 5: This wasn't robbers. You know, there are no The fct
Speaker 5: that there are no signs of struggle are very strange
Speaker 5: for many people. But the police go along with her,
Speaker 5: and the police say, yes, we believe her story, and
Speaker 5: they start trying to find people who match her the
Speaker 5: description that she gave. And I think it's important to
Speaker 5: note that she is very very well protected, that she
Speaker 5: has so many connections amongst French politicians, among French officials,
Speaker 5: and in particular the chief investigator of the affair, a
Speaker 5: band named Joseph Laidie. He was at the very least admirer,
Speaker 5: but quite possibly one of her lovers. Right, so it
Speaker 5: seems quite likely that the police are engaged in a
Speaker 5: cover up, and there are lots of theories about what
Speaker 5: actually happened. We don't know what happened. The murders remain
Speaker 5: unsolved to this day. There's some people who think that
Speaker 5: she might have done it, that she he was so
Speaker 5: tired of being married to her husband and that being
Speaker 5: a widow was less scandalous than getting a divorce, so
Speaker 5: she just decides to kill him. The most probable theories
Speaker 5: they were having a bite and then her husband wakes
Speaker 5: up and sort of lumbers towards the lover. The lover
Speaker 5: freaks out, he thinks he's been as this is a trap,
Speaker 5: and he strangles the husband, and then the mother quite
Speaker 5: possibly just dies of fright, you know, the sort of
Speaker 5: seeing her son in law murdered, essentially. And then after
Speaker 5: that she and her lover decide to stage this crime scene,
Speaker 5: and so they rifle through the drawers. They put a
Speaker 5: cane by her husband's corpse to make it look like
Speaker 5: he had defended himself, even though of course there are
Speaker 5: no signs that he had engaged in any struggle. And
Speaker 5: then they tie her to the bed, or the lover
Speaker 5: ties to the bed, but ties her quite loosely rangely,
Speaker 5: also ties her to the bed toe by toe, which
Speaker 5: is a very unusual method of tying someone to the bed,
Speaker 5: and then puts a piece of sort of cotton wadding
Speaker 5: by her head to make it look like she had
Speaker 5: been gagged and cried out. So it seems like this
Speaker 5: has been staged, very sloppily staged, but just enough so
Speaker 5: that the police would have enough to say, oh, we
Speaker 5: believe her account that this was intruders who meant to
Speaker 5: rob the house.
Speaker 4: You talk about the political connections, and you talked about this,
Speaker 4: you write about this late day, this person in charge
Speaker 4: of the investigation. But at the same time there are rumors,
Speaker 4: as you mentioned, and a very effective rumor mill. But
Speaker 4: also the press, yes, tell us about the behavior of
Speaker 4: some of the present and how prominent you said, seventy
Speaker 4: nine dailies in Paris at that time, two hundred and
Speaker 4: seventy five in the provinces. So the role of the
Speaker 4: media is very important in this story. What's the role
Speaker 4: and the public's rule in this what happens next?
Speaker 5: That's such a great question. So this is, as you say,
Speaker 5: there's seventy nine dailies in Paris alone. This is total
Speaker 5: media saturation, which means that people would be reading multiple
Speaker 5: newspapers a day, and their newspapers for all political stripes
Speaker 5: from far left to far right. There's also these four big,
Speaker 5: fairly not particularly politically engaged newspapers that have huge circulations.
Speaker 5: And so in this era where there's this tremendous press competition,
Speaker 5: everyone wants a good story and they love stories about crimes,
Speaker 5: they love stories about female celebrities and sex, and they
Speaker 5: love stories that have a little bit of political intrigue.
Speaker 5: So this immediately after the murders is front page news.
Speaker 5: That being said, there's some press norms so that there's
Speaker 5: a lot of hints in the press about Meg's relationship
Speaker 5: with Foe, but for the most part, journalists don't really
Speaker 5: mention it. Right after the murders. They still feel that's
Speaker 5: a little bit off limits. That, you know, the former
Speaker 5: president deserves a kind of certain degree of respect, and
Speaker 5: the press very early on points out all the many
Speaker 5: contradictions of Meg's story, and they're very skeptical, and particularly
Speaker 5: the left wing press is very skeptical because they were
Speaker 5: very skeptical of the police, who they see as basically
Speaker 5: a pressing workers, and so there's a lot of skepticism.
Speaker 5: What that means is that Meg is under a cloud
Speaker 5: of suspicions, and so the public really suspects her, and
Speaker 5: she has friends and lovers who are saying, we can't
Speaker 5: have a relationship with you until your name is cleared.
Speaker 5: So that means that her financial situation is very imperiled
Speaker 5: because she's dependent on her love for money, so she's
Speaker 5: really desperate to clear her name. It's pretty clear to
Speaker 5: me that the government just wants to put this case
Speaker 5: to bed and to say we couldn't find the murders.
Speaker 5: Too bad. They're just, you know, these horrible, nefarious criminals.
Speaker 5: We all know that Paris has experienced a crime experiencing
Speaker 5: a crime wave. This is just one other terrible thing
Speaker 5: that criminals have done. And so the authority stop talking
Speaker 5: to the press quite within a few weeks about this
Speaker 5: case and say there's no news, we don't have anything.
Speaker 5: This is just a very ordinary crime. The problem, of course,
Speaker 5: from Marguerite is that she needs more than that, right,
Speaker 5: she needs perpetrators to be found. But if we assume
Speaker 5: that either she's the perpetrator or that one of her
Speaker 5: powerful lovers was the perpetrator, that it can't happen. And
Speaker 5: so she really has this shifting series of stories in
Speaker 5: the coming months. Chi blames Germans, Italians, Brazilians, North Africans,
Speaker 5: and then what happens is a kind of fairly strange coincidence.
Speaker 5: So the day after the murders, someone who worked in
Speaker 5: the Persian Metro finds in the Parisian Metro card that
Speaker 5: has an invitation to an exhibit of her husband's artwork,
Speaker 5: and it also has another card with a list of addresses,
Speaker 5: And so this metro employee turns this over to the police,
Speaker 5: thinking it could be a clue, and the police tracked
Speaker 5: down all the addresses that's on this sort of supposed clue,
Speaker 5: and one of them is of a theatrical costumer, and
Speaker 5: the theatrical costumer says, well, a little bit before the murders,
Speaker 5: I rented out some robes to a bunch of strange
Speaker 5: Americans and they never returned them. And so then the
Speaker 5: police go after these They find these strange Americans, one
Speaker 5: of whom is a journalist, another whom is an artist,
Speaker 5: and they start following these men, thinking that they could
Speaker 5: be possibly the murderers. And Meg is, of course she
Speaker 5: knows about this. She's so excited. She has these increasingly
Speaker 5: certain identifications of these men as the perpetrators. As the
Speaker 5: police show her photographs and also arrange for her to
Speaker 5: see these men on the streets of Paris. She's sort
Speaker 5: of dressed up so she wouldn't be visible as herself.
Speaker 5: She dresses as an err and girl. One time she says, oh, yes,
Speaker 5: I think it's these men. And the problem for Meg
Speaker 5: and for the police is that these men have rock
Speaker 5: solid alibis, and the American journalists had actually been out
Speaker 5: of Paris. He had been on a especially hiking trip
Speaker 5: all over France. And there's a hotel owner who says, yes,
Speaker 5: he was here that night. He couldn't possibly have been
Speaker 5: in Paris, and so this is at this point Marguerite
Speaker 5: is increasingly frustrated. She really really needs to clear her name,
Speaker 5: and so she goes back to the press and she
Speaker 5: tells this journalist and says, I there's the police are
Speaker 5: on the verge of an arrest any minute now. They're
Speaker 5: going to arrest the perpetrators who matched my initial description.
Speaker 5: And the police are very upset with her at this
Speaker 5: point because by doing this, she had essentially reopened the case,
Speaker 5: put herself back in the spotlight after months of a
Speaker 5: media silence about the case. And so they say, actually, no,
Speaker 5: this league didn't pan out. These men have alibis. But
Speaker 5: immediately the press sees on this and they're so excited
Speaker 5: and marguerite. At this time, she keeps giving interviews to journalists.
Speaker 5: They're besieging her. They're sort of you know, there must
Speaker 5: be sort of probably dozens of them at her house
Speaker 5: at any one time. She's giving all these interviews. She's
Speaker 5: making herself, you know, sort of saying, I'm bound and
Speaker 5: determined to stallve these murders and avenge the deaths of
Speaker 5: my beloved family members. And so she's great to copy
Speaker 5: for these journalists because she's so dramatic and she's so wild,
Speaker 5: and you know, she's just so accessible too, and she's
Speaker 5: a bit of a celebrity. But she runs into trouble
Speaker 5: and there's no perpetrator, and she's put the news back
Speaker 5: into headlines. And so what she does is she plants
Speaker 5: evidence on her valet, and then when a journalist is over,
Speaker 5: she has the journalists look through her valet's below longings
Speaker 5: find the evidence, and they go to the police and say, oh,
Speaker 5: the Valley must have done it because you can see
Speaker 5: here he has a piece of jewelry that was stolen
Speaker 5: on the night of the murders. And so the police
Speaker 5: throw the valet into jail and he becomes a chief
Speaker 5: suspect for a few days.
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Speaker 5: But then something equally even more dramatic happens, which is
Speaker 5: her jeweler recognizes a photograph of the ring she says
Speaker 5: had been stolen in one of the newspapers, and goes
Speaker 5: to the police and says, actually, I know this wasn't
Speaker 5: stolen on the night of the murders, because Meg brought
Speaker 5: it to me a few days after the murders and
Speaker 5: wanted me to reset the stone. And so suddenly, you know,
Speaker 5: the suspicion starts falling on Meg. Did she plant evidence
Speaker 5: on her valet, Was she involved in the murders? Why
Speaker 5: was she lying about what had been stolen after the
Speaker 5: murders or during the murders. At this point, the case
Speaker 5: is absolutely front page news of basically every Parisian newspaper.
Speaker 5: They can't get enough of this story. So she admits
Speaker 5: that her vallet did it, and then very quickly she says, oh,
Speaker 5: it was the cook's son who did it, and I've
Speaker 5: known it all along and I recognized him, but I
Speaker 5: didn't say it was him because I really I didn't
Speaker 5: want to hurt the cook and I didn't want to
Speaker 5: hurt cook's feelings feelings, which is an absurd defense that
Speaker 5: she would shield her cook in order to let the
Speaker 5: murderer of her husband, Her husband and mother go.
Speaker 4: What was the relationship though, What was a relationship with
Speaker 4: this Maryette woman? How long had she had been with her,
Speaker 4: and what was other than cooking? What was her role
Speaker 4: in this household.
Speaker 5: That's a fantastic question. So the cook, Mary at Volf,
Speaker 5: had been working for Marguerite for many, many years. She
Speaker 5: had been the cook, but she was really sort of
Speaker 5: the secret keeper for Meg. She had facilitated a lot
Speaker 5: of her relationships. She had been the one to ask
Speaker 5: for money from her lovers. She had often the Marguerite
Speaker 5: and her husband rent a house outside of Paris, and
Speaker 5: it's actually where Marguerite takes her lovers and there it's
Speaker 5: just Marguerite, her lover, and the cook. So her cook
Speaker 5: knows all her secrets and they're very close, which sort
Speaker 5: of is a problem because Marguerite is accusing her cook's
Speaker 5: son of a crime he didn't commit. And we know
Speaker 5: he didn't commit it because he also has a rock
Speaker 5: solid alibi for the night of the murders. He was
Speaker 5: at a large dance and so you know, hundreds of
Speaker 5: people saw him. He can't have done it, and the
Speaker 5: police know this, but they still arrest him and they
Speaker 5: drag him to the courthouse, and there's this really dramatic
Speaker 5: confrontation between him and Marguerite and Marriette the cook and
Speaker 5: her daughter, and Marguerite's daughter and the chief investigator who
Speaker 5: is possibly one of Marguerite's lovers. And this goes on
Speaker 5: for hours, and it's covered absolutely breathlessly by the press,
Speaker 5: really blow by blow coverage, and finally the chief investigator
Speaker 5: he just I think he wants to stop her from
Speaker 5: spinning out any more versions. And at this point both
Speaker 5: a press and the public are so enraged at all
Speaker 5: her lies and just are so enraged also that the
Speaker 5: government has gone along with her lies, that he arrests
Speaker 5: her for impeding the progress of the investigation, for essentially
Speaker 5: abetting the murderers by doing so, and throws her into
Speaker 5: the Parisian Women's prison, and that's where she remains for
Speaker 5: a year. The chief investigator very quickly resigns from the case.
Speaker 5: He sort of says, like, I know that I am
Speaker 5: in trouble. I know at this point that everyone knows
Speaker 5: that I was a lover or an admirer, that I
Speaker 5: took the case just to help her out and to
Speaker 5: help her clear her name. And the new chief investigator
Speaker 5: is very suspicious of her and treats her as the
Speaker 5: chief suspect in the murders, and so it begins a
Speaker 5: whole new investigation where she is the chief suspect and
Speaker 5: maliciously on his part. But for a historian, it's wonderful.
Speaker 5: He feeds so much, so many of his interrogations, so
Speaker 5: much evidence to the press, who covers in breathless detail,
Speaker 5: right what he reveals about Marguerite's affairs, what he reveals
Speaker 5: about her relationship with her family members, And so for
Speaker 5: about a month after she's arrested, maybe even two months,
Speaker 5: that there's just report after report, but all her scandalous
Speaker 5: behavior in the newspaper.
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Speaker 4: we were talking about the arrest. Finally they pushed the
Speaker 4: police and authorities to finally arrest her. And now you
Speaker 4: say they had someone that was not so friendly to her,
Speaker 4: magistrate named Andre and tell Us. Also the unique French
Speaker 4: judicial system feature where the magistrate has much different it's
Speaker 4: much different than in US judicial jurisdictions.
Speaker 5: Yes, this is so. This is a really crucial difference
Speaker 5: in her case. So we see judges as basically sort
Speaker 5: of they're supposed to be neutral arbitrators between arbitrags between
Speaker 5: sort of two parties, right in a civil suit or
Speaker 5: in a criminal suit prosecution in defense. The French have
Speaker 5: a very different conception of what the judiciary does, and
Speaker 5: one of its functions is to find out the truth.
Speaker 5: And so the chief investigator is actually a judge and
Speaker 5: not a police official. He worked quite closely with the police,
Speaker 5: but he's the one who is essentially directing the investigation
Speaker 5: and in many cases leading the interrogations. And so this
Speaker 5: is it's a very unique system. It's a very different system,
Speaker 5: and it also means that the judge who is in
Speaker 5: charge of the investigation has a great deal of latitude
Speaker 5: typically to investigate how he would like to investigate. So
Speaker 5: you see this in the first investigation where lay Day,
Speaker 5: this first investigator, who is you know, her lover, is
Speaker 5: you know, basically trying to investigate in a way that
Speaker 5: is trying to clear her name and protect her from scrutiny.
Speaker 5: But then the second investigator who really hates her, his
Speaker 5: name is Ensley. He just tries to make her look
Speaker 5: as bad as possible and leaks all this information to
Speaker 5: the press about sort of all the negative information that
Speaker 5: he finds about her over the course of his investigation.
Speaker 5: But again, he has enormous latitude to conduct this investigation
Speaker 5: how he wants, and I think that he overplace his
Speaker 5: hands so that the public had been really really hostile
Speaker 5: to her at the time of her arrest, But as
Speaker 5: all this information about sort of Andrea's investigation comes out
Speaker 5: in the next batch of months following her arrest, the
Speaker 5: public really becomes much more sympathetic to her because they
Speaker 5: think that Andrea went too far and was too mean
Speaker 5: to her and really sort of looked into things that
Speaker 5: he shouldn't have looked into. And so I think, again,
Speaker 5: this sort of independence of the judiciary is a really
Speaker 5: crucial feature, as well as the sort of notion that
Speaker 5: judiciary's rule is to ferret out the truth through lengthy investigations.
Speaker 5: That's not at all how we see just judges as operating.
Speaker 5: It's also really important because Meg is so connected to
Speaker 5: the Persian judiciary. Her sort of her base of lovers
Speaker 5: were really Parisian judges, and so I think, right, we
Speaker 5: can also understand why there was such an effort initially
Speaker 5: to protect her because she's so protected, she's so connected
Speaker 5: to that particular world.
Speaker 4: You have the journalist at the same time that she's
Speaker 4: in prison for a year and this trial, and you
Speaker 4: have that that the journalist's silence regarding the affair with
Speaker 4: Meg and the president Faugh is now public fodder. So Yes,
Speaker 4: tell us the difference in the press coverage of this
Speaker 4: story that's unfolding with this magistrate, and make yes so again.
Speaker 5: Initially, right after the murders, the press are they're very
Speaker 5: quiet about her relationship with this president. They'll sort of
Speaker 5: hinted it, but they'll say the president was friends with
Speaker 5: a family quite typically. But as soon as she's arrested,
Speaker 5: the press just goes wild with the story and they
Speaker 5: print in right graphic detail sort of their theories of
Speaker 5: how folk died. They're kind of what the two were
Speaker 5: doing in their last encounter. So you know, there's a
Speaker 5: lot of information about the sex act that supposedly the
Speaker 5: two are engaged in during their last encounter where he
Speaker 5: has the stroke and then dies. And then there's a
Speaker 5: lot of information too about you know, her other lovers,
Speaker 5: about her sort of ascent through high society, about her family,
Speaker 5: all these things that in many cases the press had
Speaker 5: known but had kept quiet. And I think one dynamic
Speaker 5: here is a kind of dynamic of scandal. So you know,
Speaker 5: we've had these other moments where there's a press silence
Speaker 5: that's broken and then all these stories come flooding out
Speaker 5: about person's behavior. And I think, for instance, the kind
Speaker 5: of the press silence like kind of after there were
Speaker 5: a batch of the stories about Harvey Weinstein and his
Speaker 5: decade long pattern of sexual as thought and harassment, that
Speaker 5: all these other stories came pouring out. So I think
Speaker 5: this is partly just a press dynamic as sort of
Speaker 5: dynamic as scandal there were seeing. But I think the
Speaker 5: other dynamic is that there was a lot of protection
Speaker 5: for elites about their private lives. That the understanding was
Speaker 5: rich people, their private lives are you know, sort of
Speaker 5: to be kept private, and so I think that's partly
Speaker 5: what had prevented the press from reporting on this before.
Speaker 5: But once Meg is in prison, she loses all her status.
Speaker 5: She's in a prison where she's surrounded by really poor women,
Speaker 5: you know, women the state treated really horribly like sex workers,
Speaker 5: and so she's surrounded by these poor women. She sort
Speaker 5: of comes to have their status, and as a result,
Speaker 5: she has all her privacy stripped from her. And so
Speaker 5: I think that that is the sort of moment of
Speaker 5: a kind of outpouring that the press and the state
Speaker 5: really participate in. And so suddenly the public gets all
Speaker 5: this access to these elite secrets, which it really circulated
Speaker 5: as gossip among elites for years, but which now become
Speaker 5: public knowledge and really sort of in you know, all
Speaker 5: these papers are reporting on all her different affairs and
Speaker 5: write her relationship with fall again in quite graphic detail
Speaker 5: detail that's fairly shocking actually to read.
Speaker 4: Now it's this scandal known as and what is the
Speaker 4: what's the nickname that she earns?
Speaker 5: So she is nick in the Red Widow right after
Speaker 5: she's in prison read being the color of sex but
Speaker 5: also murder, and I think attention, right, this sort of
Speaker 5: absolutely arresting attention. She also has a lot of other
Speaker 5: nicknames as well. She's nicknamed the black panther, but of
Speaker 5: course that has different connotations to say it back then.
Speaker 5: So she becomes known as the Red Widow and the
Speaker 5: scandal becomes known as the Steinhal affair. Affair in France
Speaker 5: can refer to both a criminal case but then also
Speaker 5: a scandal, and it just absolutely monopolizes public's attention. They
Speaker 5: are these fascinating documents that I found in libraries and archives,
Speaker 5: songs that were sung about her, postcards that are kind
Speaker 5: of imagining her with her lovers, you know, these sort
Speaker 5: of naughty images of her that circulate in Paris that
Speaker 5: people buy up as this kind of like memorabilia in
Speaker 5: a way. And so this case is Meg is arrested
Speaker 5: in November nineteen oh eight. The cases sort of front
Speaker 5: page news really I would say, until January nineteen oh nine,
Speaker 5: and then every so often pops back up for the
Speaker 5: year that she's in jail. And she's finally put on
Speaker 5: trial in November of nineteen oh nine for the murders.
Speaker 5: And you know, had she the sentence that she's facing
Speaker 5: is she could have been guillotined because that was the
Speaker 5: method of execution, and she was being tried for capital crimes,
Speaker 5: right and sort of killing her husband. And then the
Speaker 5: crime that is seen as even worse is the killing
Speaker 5: of her mother, which is under the umbrella of parasite.
Speaker 5: So killing of a parent just seen as one of
Speaker 5: the worst things you can do because it violates the
Speaker 5: bonds of family and so she's put on trial in
Speaker 5: November nineteen o nine. She's interrogated for three days by
Speaker 5: the judge at the trial, and not the judge who
Speaker 5: had investigated the trial, another judge named val Valles, I think,
Speaker 5: and he interrogates her for three days. He there's all
Speaker 5: these witnesses about her family life, her valet testifies, her
Speaker 5: cook testifies, some of her lovers testify, the journalists who
Speaker 5: were involved in uncovering the affair testify, and then of
Speaker 5: course there's lots of police testimony and sort of testimony
Speaker 5: relating to the physical evidence. And this case again is
Speaker 5: absolutely sort of dominates the front pages of every Parisian
Speaker 5: newspaper for this sort of more or less ten days
Speaker 5: doesn't let the judge who's interrogating her get any sort
Speaker 5: of never gets a leg up on her. She makes
Speaker 5: fun of him. She's funny, she's witty, she's cutting. She
Speaker 5: sometimes is kind of plays up, you know, the tragedy
Speaker 5: that befell her. She's absolutely captivating, and the thought is
Speaker 5: that she charms really the jury, and she's an incredibly
Speaker 5: charming woman and she just turns her attention to them,
Speaker 5: and that dominates the court room and state is really
Speaker 5: never able to prove its case that she did it.
Speaker 5: I think it's quite because you know, she didn't actually
Speaker 5: do it. So they can prove that she murdered her husband,
Speaker 5: and they can prove sorry, not that she murdered her husband.
Speaker 5: They can prove that she hated her husband and we
Speaker 5: wanted to end their marriage. And she can prove that
Speaker 5: she lied about what she saw on the night of
Speaker 5: the murders. But they can't prove anything else, and so
Speaker 5: she's acquitted. And I think it's this combination of a
Speaker 5: very weak case that the government brings, but also the
Speaker 5: enormous public sympathy for her in the degree to which
Speaker 5: she charmed you know, at that point, the jury, the journalists, public,
Speaker 5: the public just reading the newspaper that they really sort
Speaker 5: of loved her at that point and saw her as
Speaker 5: a kind of exciting, sexy celebrity. So she's acquitted in
Speaker 5: November nineteen nine. Again the case remains unsolved. She after
Speaker 5: that has to flee because there's so much press attention.
Speaker 5: She's a star, she's a celebrity, and she has to flee.
Speaker 5: So she goes to London and lives the rest of
Speaker 5: her life. She lives for many decades after and sort
Speaker 5: of pretty quiet seclusion.
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Speaker 4: Now you're talking about that she was acquitted remarkably and
Speaker 4: then she her mythic image persisted. She lived outside of London.
Speaker 4: But let's talk about some of the requests that she
Speaker 4: had and the relationship that someone attorney had seen her
Speaker 4: at trial and that was smitten. Tell us about her
Speaker 4: life after and the relationship with this lawyer and how
Speaker 4: she regained her position in high society.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so after the trial, she's a celebrity. Everyone loves
Speaker 5: her and so of course everyone wants her to sell
Speaker 5: their products. So she gets all these requests to be
Speaker 5: on the stage to starn vaudeville to kind of advertise
Speaker 5: products essentially to you know, be a celebrity endorser. And
Speaker 5: she's like a social media influencer in a way. And
Speaker 5: she also gets lots of all these men who fall
Speaker 5: in love with her at the trial and they offer
Speaker 5: to marry her or to have an affair with her,
Speaker 5: and she turns down all the commercial offers, so she
Speaker 5: really wants to regain her privacy. She turns down the
Speaker 5: offers of marriage. I don't know if she turns down
Speaker 5: the men who are sort of interested in paying for
Speaker 5: sex with her. She may say yes or she may
Speaker 5: say no. But she moves to London. We know that
Speaker 5: by nineteen seventeen she's living in a house sort of
Speaker 5: in actually like kind of suburbs of London, a quite
Speaker 5: large house, a very beautifully furnished house, which suggests that,
Speaker 5: you know, her husband's estate wasn't much. She didn't have
Speaker 5: much money afterwards. So my guess is that her lovers
Speaker 5: are still paying her some money for affairs, still, you know,
Speaker 5: interested in visiting this kind of alluring, captivating woman. In
Speaker 5: World War One, she decides to start up a gam
Speaker 5: factory to make provisions for the troops, and so this
Speaker 5: is a kind of form of war work. A lot
Speaker 5: of women engaged in war work at the time to
Speaker 5: sort of help out or to make some extra money.
Speaker 5: And at some point in the nineteen tens, this lawyer
Speaker 5: who's a British baron, he had seen her at the trial.
Speaker 5: He falls in love with her. He proposes to her
Speaker 5: right after the trial. She says no, and it seems
Speaker 5: like a few years later they meet again, you know,
Speaker 5: at some sort of society event in London, and she
Speaker 5: takes him up on his offer, and so they marry
Speaker 5: in nineteen seventeen. He at the time is serving in
Speaker 5: the navy. He's a baron, and you know, they kind
Speaker 5: of they live i think, quite nice life in He
Speaker 5: has a big castle in the Scottish Highlands and they're
Speaker 5: sort of redoing that and they also have a place
Speaker 5: in Surrey where they live and they have a quite
Speaker 5: nice life. We don't know much about their marriage. It
Speaker 5: seems like she sort of continued to go to parties
Speaker 5: but probably was not received in the best circles of
Speaker 5: British society. Was a bit too scandalous for that. And
Speaker 5: then he drops dead. I'm ten years after they're married,
Speaker 5: he has a heart attack while she's away sort of
Speaker 5: with a servant's child at the you know, giving him
Speaker 5: a kid a nice day at the seaside, and that
Speaker 5: puts her in some financial strain again because a lot
Speaker 5: of the property goes basically to the heir to the
Speaker 5: title and not her. So she to Hope, which is
Speaker 5: a British seaside town. I've been told it's very lovely.
Speaker 5: I've lives out as a kind of dowager, you know,
Speaker 5: sort of going to parties, going to charity bazaars, attending
Speaker 5: luncheons with friends, receiving visits, visiting people for sort of
Speaker 5: the kind of next decade of her life until she
Speaker 5: dies in the nineteen fifties. She refuses to speak to
Speaker 5: the press. There's you know, every so often a journalist
Speaker 5: tracks her down and is kind of really says like,
Speaker 5: can you please tell us your story, you know, tell
Speaker 5: us who did it? Can't you do that now? And
Speaker 5: she just absolutely refuses, and so she dies in the
Speaker 5: nineteen fifties, taking her secrets with her.
Speaker 4: You talk about though, the secrets that she published, her
Speaker 4: her reputation was so important to her that she sued
Speaker 4: certain publications for saying things for Libel but to a
Speaker 4: sage that she wrote her ken you had access to that,
Speaker 4: So what was how were the memoirs anticipated? And then
Speaker 4: what was the reaction afterwards?
Speaker 5: Yeah, So she publishes her memoirs. I think in nineteen twelve,
Speaker 5: people are so excited because they know this is coming out.
Speaker 5: It comes out first in the UK, and they're so
Speaker 5: excited because they think she's going to reveal all her secrets.
Speaker 5: She's going to talk about her relationship with the French
Speaker 5: president's Felix book. Maybe they think that she might even
Speaker 5: say who did it, who committed the murders, But it's
Speaker 5: they're a huge disappointment, you know. She really sort of
Speaker 5: doesn't reveal any juicy secrets. There's some very interesting kind
Speaker 5: of emotional passages about her her childhood and her family,
Speaker 5: but some of it is just like basically reads like
Speaker 5: a news report of what happened, you know, in eighteen
Speaker 5: eighty nine. It's something like no insight, something you could
Speaker 5: read in a textbook. And she really sort of skims
Speaker 5: over her relationship with Falk. She says that she was
Speaker 5: just kind of helping him write his memoirs, and when
Speaker 5: it comes to the murders, it's even worse in her account,
Speaker 5: so she blames Jews for the murders, and she had
Speaker 5: soon after the murders kind of fluted all these theories
Speaker 5: that Jews had been responsible and really tried to rile
Speaker 5: up anti Semitism in France. And you know, people don't
Speaker 5: really believe her. Like the sort of far right nationalist
Speaker 5: anti Semitic press is willing to believe her, but a
Speaker 5: lot of the kind of the sort of other press
Speaker 5: organs are just like, no, this woman is nuts and
Speaker 5: so but in her memoirs, she's really kind of trying
Speaker 5: to say that there was this international Jewish conspiracy that
Speaker 5: had something to do with Faugh and she doesn't quite
Speaker 5: know what it is, but that's who killed her husband
Speaker 5: and mother. And so it's a really nasty conspiracy theory
Speaker 5: that plays on a lot of horrible anti Semitic tropes,
Speaker 5: including right sort of ideas about Jews as ugly as
Speaker 5: sort of criminal, as you know, masterminds of an international
Speaker 5: conspiracy plotting against the nation. And so I think quite
Speaker 5: fortunately for the time, people just don't like her memoirs.
Speaker 5: I think their disappointment. People are very upset that she's
Speaker 5: not willing to say who did it to reveal much,
Speaker 5: and also that she's still continuing to float these conspiracy theories.
Speaker 5: That being said, the right wing nationalist press still picks
Speaker 5: up on these conspiracy theories, and they really use this
Speaker 5: crime as fodder for their theories that Jews were a
Speaker 5: danger to the nation, that they're sort of plotting against people,
Speaker 5: and that they control the French state. And of course
Speaker 5: this is why the murders will never find out, and
Speaker 5: that feeds into fascist currents in France. And so I
Speaker 5: think that is the kind of one of the dark side. Meg,
Speaker 5: her whole life, has this propensity for lying. Some of
Speaker 5: her lies seem kind of harmless or some are sort
Speaker 5: of obviously untrue. This one is really harmful, does a
Speaker 5: great deal of damage in the long run.
Speaker 4: You say that Meg became a sexual celebrity, and what
Speaker 4: we haven't talked about was we just skipped over it
Speaker 4: a little bit, is that her father had trained her
Speaker 4: in how to speak, how to walk up a stair,
Speaker 4: how to descend the stair, her comportment, and you talked
Speaker 4: about that possibly there was some abuse, but there was
Speaker 4: this bizarre relationship that they did have that was far
Speaker 4: too intimate for anyone that would look at it. You
Speaker 4: talk about sexual celebrity and the effect of Meg this
Speaker 4: affair and this entire story on society.
Speaker 5: So it's really fascinating. I think that her father, whatever,
Speaker 5: you know, he may or may not have sexually abused her,
Speaker 5: but it's clear that there is this sort of sexual
Speaker 5: charge the relationship and that he really wants her to
Speaker 5: be as alluring as possible, while also being very jealous
Speaker 5: of the sort of any time any other math plays
Speaker 5: pays attention to her, So in certain ways quite horrifying,
Speaker 5: she sees this as a form of his care, as
Speaker 5: a form of him loving her. What she does is
Speaker 5: I think she she learns quickly that being a sort
Speaker 5: of sexualized demeanor is a form of you know, it
Speaker 5: can get her attention, can get her sort of things
Speaker 5: she wants, and so she uses this ability to kind
Speaker 5: of drop men's attention to cultivate their right sort of
Speaker 5: their interest in her throughout her life. And I think,
Speaker 5: you know, we might see this as in some ways
Speaker 5: making best of what you would see as a very
Speaker 5: bad situation that she she manages to kind of use
Speaker 5: this for her own purposes and so this is this
Speaker 5: helps her become a celebrity, particularly you know, during the trial.
Speaker 5: I think that, you know, one of the interesting things
Speaker 5: is about the trial, but also with the sort of
Speaker 5: the scandal in general, is this fascinating series of debates
Speaker 5: about gender and about women's roles and men's roles, some
Speaker 5: of which have a lot of resonance today and some
Speaker 5: of which very much I think we can say we
Speaker 5: fortunately have passed them. So, you know, she really plays
Speaker 5: up how traditional she is at the trial, that she
Speaker 5: was just a kind of loving family member that she
Speaker 5: you know, she if she lied after the murders, it
Speaker 5: was just to protect her daughter, that she's this loving mother.
Speaker 5: So she's really playing on these traditional roles feminist Interestingly
Speaker 5: at the time sort of try and take her as
Speaker 5: a hero because she's so smart, and she's so eloquent,
Speaker 5: and she's so talented, and they say this is proof
Speaker 5: of that women are actually really smart, right, that they
Speaker 5: can outsmart like kind of male judges and male officials.
Speaker 5: It's also I think that there's this absolute horror how
Speaker 5: weak her husband was that he let her have affairs.
Speaker 5: That's he's seen as sort of responsible for her affairs
Speaker 5: and also, I think there's some absolute horror for his
Speaker 5: relationships with men. This is also a kind of sign
Speaker 5: of moral weakness, of his being kind of corrupt. So
Speaker 5: I think, you know, it's really interesting to me that
Speaker 5: some of these ideas really resonate with some of our
Speaker 5: ideas and some of our debates. Right, So often we
Speaker 5: judge women based on how are they good family members?
Speaker 5: Are they loving? And I think that really resonates. At
Speaker 5: the same time, I think we also understand sort of
Speaker 5: that we also have more space for women to have
Speaker 5: professional opportunities, which there was very limited ability for women
Speaker 5: to do at the time. And I think we also
Speaker 5: can say that our attitudes about same sex sexuality are
Speaker 5: for the most part right. There are a lot more
Speaker 5: people who would sort of not see this as absolutely horrifying.
Speaker 5: So I think it's a really interesting case where we
Speaker 5: see these debates over what men should be like, women
Speaker 5: should be like. And you know, I was in college
Speaker 5: when the sort of Bill Clinton's relationship with Monic Blinsky
Speaker 5: came to light, right, and I just remember it as
Speaker 5: this time where this, you know, again, the scandal was
Speaker 5: so kind of centered so much on bates about women
Speaker 5: should be like, what men should be like, you know,
Speaker 5: like sort of women in the workplace, women's power, sort
Speaker 5: of men's authority. And I think there are these way
Speaker 5: in which scandals really quite often become ways for us
Speaker 5: to have these discussions and right to sort of think
Speaker 5: about these things in terms of people's behavior kind of
Speaker 5: what they should and shouldn't do. So that's just one
Speaker 5: way in which I think we're sort of very much
Speaker 5: sort of living in a world that's quite similar to
Speaker 5: Meg's world.
Speaker 4: One thing that I struck me was when you talk
Speaker 4: about the again sexual celebrity, but also that the trial
Speaker 4: hinged on whether people thought they knew who she was
Speaker 4: and whether they liked her. So based on some of
Speaker 4: the again the charm that she exuded, that's why she
Speaker 4: was successful.
Speaker 5: I think it's a combination of her charm and her smarts,
Speaker 5: and also the state just has a very weak case.
Speaker 5: They really don't have any evidence that she actually committed
Speaker 5: the murders. It's all circumstantial, and it's also true that
Speaker 5: the prosecutor just kind of flubs the case and is
Speaker 5: really unconvincing as a prosecutor. So I think it's a combination.
Speaker 5: But I do think again there's this way in which
Speaker 5: we often judge women who are accused of crimes based
Speaker 5: on sort of whether we like them or not, And
Speaker 5: so I think that sort of is something that resonates, right,
Speaker 5: do they fit what a woman should be? Do we
Speaker 5: find them charming? Do we find them the sort of monstrous?
Speaker 5: And she really benefits from the degree to which she
Speaker 5: was able to charm folks. And I think that's still
Speaker 5: the kind of degree to which we judge female defendants
Speaker 5: on sort of based on our kind of gut feeling
Speaker 5: about them, as opposed to necessarily the evidence.
Speaker 4: It seemed that she rehabilitated it herself, and then that
Speaker 4: trial came down to that she loved too much and
Speaker 4: lost her head and really had rehabilitated herself from this
Speaker 4: cold blooded murderer. They could have something to do with
Speaker 4: her mother's murder and the murder of her husband.
Speaker 5: Yes, she very successfully as her defense lawyer, who's also
Speaker 5: very canny, they really play up that this is just
Speaker 5: a woman who loved deeply, who's very emotional, very passionate.
Speaker 5: In a kind of pretty big, you know, coup for
Speaker 5: a defense attorney. The defense attorney brings back the army
Speaker 5: officer who was her first love, and then he testifies
Speaker 5: about how wonderful she was and just how loving she was,
Speaker 5: and how much he loved her, and how sort of
Speaker 5: sweet their relationship was, and how she was such a
Speaker 5: good daughter, and so she really is able to kind
Speaker 5: of cast herself as this loving figure. Again, I think
Speaker 5: that we often judge women based on whether we see
Speaker 5: them as loving or not, based on their sort of
Speaker 5: their family relationship. So this is this way in which
Speaker 5: I think this also kind of is very reminded me
Speaker 5: a lot of some of the kind of cases we
Speaker 5: see today.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I want to thank you so much Sarah Horowitz
Speaker 4: for coming on and talking about the Red Widow, the
Speaker 4: scandal that shook Paris and the woman behind it all.
Speaker 4: This is to be released September sixth. Can you tell
Speaker 4: us how people might find out more information? Do you
Speaker 4: do any social media?
Speaker 5: Yes, so you can go to my website which is
Speaker 5: Sarahehrowitz dot com and it has a link to my
Speaker 5: Twitter account which is also Sarah E. Horowitz and my
Speaker 5: Instagram account, which is a little bit confusingly Sarah period
Speaker 5: e period Horowitz. And yeah, so people can find me
Speaker 5: on the internet my web site. We'll have all those
Speaker 5: links to both Instagram and Twitter.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Sarah Horowitz, the red widow, the
Speaker 4: scandal that shook Paris, and the woman behind it all.
Speaker 4: You have a great night. Thank you so much for
Speaker 4: this interview, and good night.
Speaker 5: Thank you.