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<v Speaker 1>By Billy Cunningham, the Great America. Welcome this Monday at

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<v Speaker 1>Dude in the tri State. The Reds completely the last

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<v Speaker 1>six games. They went three and three. The last couple

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<v Speaker 1>of games in Chicago not so good, but nonetheless I'll

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<v Speaker 1>take us to three and three road tripped back out

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<v Speaker 1>of tonight, Tuesday and Wednesday in Milwaukee, and we continue.

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<v Speaker 1>But joining you and I now is Mark Pete Meyer.

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<v Speaker 1>And for those who may not know, he spent like

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<v Speaker 1>thirty to forty years in the prosecutor's office. He knows

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<v Speaker 1>where the bodies are buried all over Hamleton County many

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<v Speaker 1>many years ago. And then whenever riots at Lucasville, the

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<v Speaker 1>state of Ohio looked around and said, who do we

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<v Speaker 1>find in the state of Ohio to prosecute the criminals

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<v Speaker 1>who've killed guards and other inmates at Lucasville. And that

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<v Speaker 1>guy twenty years ago was Mark Pete Meyer. And since

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<v Speaker 1>then he's been with every prosecutor for the last thirty

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<v Speaker 1>five years, beginning with Artnay and then Joe Eaters, then

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<v Speaker 1>Mike Allen, then Joe Dieters, and then since then he's

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<v Speaker 1>been with Connie Pillach, Melissa Powers. He's been there and

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<v Speaker 1>knows where the bodies are buried. Once again to Mark

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<v Speaker 1>Pete Meyer, Welcome to the Bill Cunningham Show. And first

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<v Speaker 1>of all, Mark, many are uncertain as to what a

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<v Speaker 1>grand jury does. This is in relationship to what's going

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<v Speaker 1>to happen to the Cincinnati cop to be indicted or

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<v Speaker 1>not indicted for the killing of Ryan Hinton about a

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<v Speaker 1>month ago or so. So can you tell the American people?

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<v Speaker 1>Do the grand jurors come from Mount Olympus, how are

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<v Speaker 1>they selected? What's it like in the grand jury room?

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<v Speaker 1>And formed the American people some of the basics.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, And first of all, Bill, I actually started forty

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<v Speaker 2>four years ago for sy Lee, so four.

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<v Speaker 1>Holy god, you're not that old, are you.

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<v Speaker 2>No. I came right out of Roger Bacon High School

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<v Speaker 2>into the prosecutor's office. So yeah. But anyway, the grand

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<v Speaker 2>jurors are selected just like a regular jury. To brand

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<v Speaker 2>seiss Is the juror commissioner. Every two weeks they subpoena

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<v Speaker 2>probably around sixty or so people that are just on

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<v Speaker 2>the voting roles, just like regular jurors. They show up

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<v Speaker 2>down the jury Commissioner's office, they go before the presiding

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<v Speaker 2>judge and Out of the sixty years so that are notified,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe thirty five to forty show up and our prosecutors

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<v Speaker 2>talk to them to make sure nobody has a conflict.

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<v Speaker 2>If you don't get paid by your job, you're excused.

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<v Speaker 2>If you've got to schedule vacation, or if you have

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<v Speaker 2>any kind of particular reason, you can't serve. But out

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<v Speaker 2>of that we winto it down to twenty two people

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<v Speaker 2>every two weeks. So every other Monday, twenty two people

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<v Speaker 2>are served picked to serve on two grand juries. They

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<v Speaker 2>are brought over to our office. We give them like

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<v Speaker 2>a one hour introduction video of how to be a

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<v Speaker 2>grand juror. From there they start their service. So there

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<v Speaker 2>are eleven jurors actually that are sitting in the grand

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<v Speaker 2>jury room to hear every case. After the case is presented,

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<v Speaker 2>two of them will step out, just their kind of alternates,

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<v Speaker 2>and they take turns doing that, and they make the

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<v Speaker 2>decision who's going to step out, And at that point,

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<v Speaker 2>the only people in the grand jury room or the

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<v Speaker 2>nine grand jurors, they have already heard the evidence, the

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<v Speaker 2>prosecutors told them the law, and they vote whether or

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<v Speaker 2>not to indate each of these grand jurors. Probably here's

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<v Speaker 2>fifteen to twenty cases a day, so they we kind

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<v Speaker 2>of rust these cases through pretty quickly. Anytime someone is

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<v Speaker 2>arrested for a felony, that case has to go to

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<v Speaker 2>the grand jury. If you're locked up, it has to

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<v Speaker 2>go to the grand jury within ten days. If you're

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<v Speaker 2>out on bond, it's got to be within fifteen days.

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<v Speaker 2>And if that's not done, the case is dismissed. So

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<v Speaker 2>the grand jurors deliberate, and again they may only deliberate

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<v Speaker 2>a minute. Most of these cases are pretty cut and dry.

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<v Speaker 2>They take a vote and the nine grand jurors, at

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<v Speaker 2>least seven of them, have to vote to indict a

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<v Speaker 2>case for it to go forward. That's called a true bill.

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<v Speaker 2>If six or less vote to indict, it's not enough

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<v Speaker 2>and the case is ignored. So it's in the grand

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<v Speaker 2>jury room. The only people in the gend injury room

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<v Speaker 2>is the witness testifying, the prosecutor, and the grand jurors.

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<v Speaker 2>In the old days, we had a court reporter, but

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<v Speaker 2>now everything is recorded, so there's no defendant, there's no

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<v Speaker 2>defense attorney, there's no judge. It's just the prosecutor, the witness,

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<v Speaker 2>and the grand jurors.

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<v Speaker 1>And what's the standard of proof. So I've heard some

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<v Speaker 1>civilians say, you know what, you can diet a ham sandwich,

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<v Speaker 1>you've been involved in litterally tens of thousands of felony indictments,

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<v Speaker 1>And can the prosecutor direct give word by inflection of

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<v Speaker 1>voice of what the prosecutor might say. You know, you

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<v Speaker 1>might say, well, I don't think this is much of

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<v Speaker 1>a case, but we're going to present it to you anyway.

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<v Speaker 1>Or you might say, you know what, I think this

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<v Speaker 1>is a serious case. I think you should indict. How

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<v Speaker 1>much influence would you have in the grand jury when

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<v Speaker 1>it comes to their decision.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we don't really make a closing argument, but we

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<v Speaker 2>don't want a grand juror to indict the case that

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<v Speaker 2>we can't prove. So we tell them that in common

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<v Speaker 2>police court it's got to be proofed beyond the reasonable doubt,

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<v Speaker 2>and you need to be convinced basically to that same

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<v Speaker 2>level before you indict the case. I know some people

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<v Speaker 2>say it's only probable cause, but again, we don't think

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<v Speaker 2>it's fair. And every prosecutor I serve for from sy

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<v Speaker 2>Lease to Countie Pillage doesn't want a grand jury to

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<v Speaker 2>indict a case that they think maybe the person did.

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<v Speaker 2>That's not the standard we rely on. So it's got

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<v Speaker 2>to be a solid case. Again, we don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>have to go into a courtroom and try to prove

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<v Speaker 2>a case that maybe didn't even happen.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, if you don't want a case in diet it,

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<v Speaker 1>you don't present it at all. Correct. If you look

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<v Speaker 1>at all the evidence, you talk to the witnesses, talk

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<v Speaker 1>to the investigating officer, could be from Green Township, from Madera,

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<v Speaker 1>from the city of Cincinnati. And if when you were

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<v Speaker 1>in charge, which in forty four years you're like the

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<v Speaker 1>first sergeant of the whole brigade. If you're saying I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think there's a case here, you don't present it

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<v Speaker 1>the first place.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct, Correct, that's correct. We will actually go back to

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<v Speaker 2>the municipal court, have a municipal court judge sign an

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<v Speaker 2>entry dismissing the case, especially if the person's locked up.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, we move as fast as we can. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>the lab report will come back negative it's a drug case.

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<v Speaker 2>It may be any other kind of case where we

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<v Speaker 2>rely on some kind of chemical test and if it

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<v Speaker 2>comes back that it's not a drug or it's not

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<v Speaker 2>this again, we will not even present the case. So

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<v Speaker 2>those are the cases that are signed by the police.

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<v Speaker 2>Now there's another category of cases that are called direct hearings,

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<v Speaker 2>where the police haven't signed to charge yet they present

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<v Speaker 2>the case to us and we decide that we will

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<v Speaker 2>go direct to the grand jury. Good example of that

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<v Speaker 2>was the Marcus Fisel case, the little boy that was

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<v Speaker 2>hit by the foster parents. That's the case that Joe

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<v Speaker 2>neither decided that we were going to present to the

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<v Speaker 2>grand jury, and we actually subpoened to the grand jury

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<v Speaker 2>the suspects in the case, which was Liz and David

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<v Speaker 2>Carroll and Amy Baker, who was the living girlfriend of Dave.

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<v Speaker 2>And at that particular case, Liz Carroll actually ended up

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<v Speaker 2>confessing in the grand jury when she was questioned by

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<v Speaker 2>myself and cho Theaters and Dan Bryer from Butler count

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<v Speaker 2>or from Claremont County. So it's kind of a rare

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<v Speaker 2>situation where a defendant will appear. But in that particular case,

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<v Speaker 2>they were so cocky and so arrogant that they were

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<v Speaker 2>going to get away with what they did. They said,

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<v Speaker 2>bring it on, bring it on. Joe Dieters up here

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<v Speaker 2>before the grand jury, and it turned that back from them.

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<v Speaker 1>Mark Pete Myer on police shootings cases You've been involved

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<v Speaker 1>in everyone for the last forty some years. Do you

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<v Speaker 1>present to the grand jury a police shooting case that

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<v Speaker 1>you do not believe you can prove a trial that

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<v Speaker 1>you don't believe it should be indicted Having there have

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<v Speaker 1>been numerous circumstances, including the last five or six months

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<v Speaker 1>in which there were police shootings, I think are the

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<v Speaker 1>one that you and Connie Pillage said, we're not going

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<v Speaker 1>to present this at all.

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<v Speaker 2>If it's a clear cut justifying police shooting, we will

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<v Speaker 2>not present it. That's not all counties act that way,

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<v Speaker 2>but in a case where we believe, you know it, Basically,

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<v Speaker 2>if a suspect points a gun out an officer and

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<v Speaker 2>the officer shoots the person, it's not going to be presented.

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<v Speaker 2>If there's any threat to the officer or to anyone

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<v Speaker 2>else in the public and the officer ends up firing,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not going to be presented. Now, sometimes it's a

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want to say a close call, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>something I give you an example, the Beaver Creek Walmart

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<v Speaker 2>case that I was asked to call it in to

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<v Speaker 2>handle buck up in Green County that ten years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>there was so much public protest and so much public

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<v Speaker 2>discussion about that. I myself believed it was a justified

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<v Speaker 2>police shooting. But basically so, you wouldn't have this prosecutor

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<v Speaker 2>from several counties away making the decision. I made the

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<v Speaker 2>decision to present it to the Green County grand jury,

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<v Speaker 2>and they unanimously ignored the case within about a minute

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<v Speaker 2>of me closing the door and walking out of the room.

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<v Speaker 2>So again, sometimes even though a case we believe it

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<v Speaker 2>was justified, there's so much public input and comment and

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<v Speaker 2>discussion about it. Times a safer course of action is okay, say, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>we will present it to a grand jury. We'll let

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<v Speaker 2>some citizens look at this and make the decision. And

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes it's I don't want to say it's good cover,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's just policy. I think to actually take that

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<v Speaker 2>extra step in cases where it may be a close call.

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<v Speaker 1>You had a case I forget that it was on

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<v Speaker 1>I seventy five. I think someone that didn't speak of

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<v Speaker 1>the English very well, who confronted a police officer and

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<v Speaker 1>he was shot, and this was about two or three

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<v Speaker 1>months ago under Connie Pillach. Why why did you not

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<v Speaker 1>present that case to the grand jury?

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<v Speaker 2>Because he hain't believed that the person was a threat

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<v Speaker 2>to the officer. The officer did not know he did

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<v Speaker 2>not understand English, but he wasn't following his commands. It

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<v Speaker 2>looked like he had his hand in his pocket. He's

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<v Speaker 2>told to get his hands out, and then all of

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<v Speaker 2>a sudden, he brings it out of his pocket towards

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<v Speaker 2>the officer. The officer fired a shot. We actually went

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<v Speaker 2>out to the scene on that one. And again it's

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<v Speaker 2>something that if it's a credible threat and one thing too.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's a split second decision by a police officer,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's the only job I can think of that

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<v Speaker 2>if you make a mistake in that split second, you

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<v Speaker 2>may be going to prison. You know, if Jamar Chase

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<v Speaker 2>drops a touchdown pass, he doesn't go to prison. If

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<v Speaker 2>Joe Burrow throws a pick six, or if Eli data

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<v Speaker 2>Cruz struts out ten times in a row, they can't

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<v Speaker 2>go to prison for making mistakes. The police officer is

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<v Speaker 2>the only person I can think of that if you

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<v Speaker 2>make a decision in a split second that turns out

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<v Speaker 2>to be wrong, you absolutely face jail time. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>something we've taken the mind in presenting these kinds of cases.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the last thing a police officer wants to do

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<v Speaker 2>is fire is gun and he's called into situations that

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<v Speaker 2>we cannot handle ourselves. There's a threat, help, I need

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<v Speaker 2>the police. We call them into those situations, and again

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<v Speaker 2>we take that in mind when considering how the police

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<v Speaker 2>officer acted in that situation.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking about what happened to the Taste of Cincinnati.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, you were out of the office about you

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<v Speaker 1>left the office about a month month and a half ago,

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<v Speaker 1>and the Taste of Cincinnati A shooting. Guy's name was

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<v Speaker 1>Jabbari Johnson. He was breaking into cars and unbeknownst to

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<v Speaker 1>the two police officers on Fountain Square, he was armed.

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<v Speaker 1>He comes out of the Taste about after midnight as

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<v Speaker 1>it's closing down. Please identify him through a ring camera

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<v Speaker 1>as someone may have been breaking into cars. They asked him, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>they didn't know who he was at the time, as hey, stop,

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<v Speaker 1>we want to talk with it. He took off like

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<v Speaker 1>a jackrab but a cop about fifty yards away pulled

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<v Speaker 1>out his taser to stop him from running. But unbeknownst

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<v Speaker 1>to them, as he was pulling out his taser. Jabari

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<v Speaker 1>Johnson was reaching for a gun in the waist and

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<v Speaker 1>his waistband and the cop didn't really know that. And

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<v Speaker 1>fortunately the barbs hit the body of Jabari Johnson and

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<v Speaker 1>he had the effect. And he then the gun that

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<v Speaker 1>he was going to use to kill two police officers

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<v Speaker 1>on Fountain Square after the taste kind of hit the

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<v Speaker 1>pavement and the officer pulled out a taser thinking it

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<v Speaker 1>was a taser needed. He should have pulled out his gun,

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<v Speaker 1>but he didn't know he was armed. Now, the Ryan

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<v Speaker 1>Hinton situation, he was clearly armed and it appears unlikely

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<v Speaker 1>according to the video. You can prove one way or

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<v Speaker 1>another he pointed the gun at the cop. Is it

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<v Speaker 1>critical irrespective of Ryan Hinton, if someone is in possession

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<v Speaker 1>of a gun in his hand, do you have to

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<v Speaker 1>wait until he points it at you to respond? No.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean to me, if you've got a person armed

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<v Speaker 2>with a gun, and in this particular case, I know

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<v Speaker 2>the person was out of view of the one officer,

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<v Speaker 2>he's in the view of another officer and a brother

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<v Speaker 2>officerer is yelling gun, gun. That's telling me that this

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<v Speaker 2>guy has a gun that's visible and it's a threat.

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<v Speaker 2>So to me, no, you don't. Again, you wait that

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<v Speaker 2>split second for him to point the gun at you,

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<v Speaker 2>and he might shoot before you can. So it's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot to ask again of a police officer who will

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<v Speaker 2>put into these situations to be perfect. You know, you

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<v Speaker 2>can take the video and flow motion and you can

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<v Speaker 2>do the Monday Morning quarterback, but that's not the luxury

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<v Speaker 2>the officer has on the seat. He's got to make

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<v Speaker 2>that split second decision. And the burden is basically, was

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<v Speaker 2>the officer justified in using deadly force to protect himself

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<v Speaker 2>or the public. That's basically what a jury is told

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<v Speaker 2>in those kind of situations, and it's an objective test.

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<v Speaker 2>But again, you can't Monday Morning quarterback these things. You've

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<v Speaker 2>got to put yourself in his shoes what he was

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<v Speaker 2>facing at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Now Monday money quarterbacking. I'm holding a statement issued by

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<v Speaker 1>the City of Cincinnati here, and it says that one

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<v Speaker 1>of the suspects pulled a semi automatic handgun and pointed

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<v Speaker 1>it at an officer. If the video is incorrect, a

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<v Speaker 1>video cannot be incorrect. It is what it is. But

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<v Speaker 1>said the officer fired his weapon, hitting the suspect. The

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<v Speaker 1>arm suspect is to seize. No officer were injured, and

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<v Speaker 1>Chief Police Teresa Thiji, some have said she made a

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<v Speaker 1>tactical air. The day after the shooting, she held a

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<v Speaker 1>news conference and said that the gun was pointed at

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<v Speaker 1>the officer, that he was shot in the chest and

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<v Speaker 1>the bullet went out his back and in reality according

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<v Speaker 1>to the coroner's office, Mark Pete Meyer forty five years

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<v Speaker 1>in the prosecutor's office according to the coroner, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think last me some Marco is about the best there

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<v Speaker 1>is that the kill shot went about four inches below

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<v Speaker 1>his left arm, put exit at the front of his chest.

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<v Speaker 1>Is the fact, assuming the chief of police made a

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<v Speaker 1>misstatement of fact, the reality might have been different. Is

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<v Speaker 1>that critical As far as indicting a police officer, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't believe so. And against the perception of the officer,

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<v Speaker 2>it is a split second thing. And again the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that another officer is yowing to.

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<v Speaker 1>Him gun gun.

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<v Speaker 2>It's that are increased awareness and as soon as you

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<v Speaker 2>see this person, you know in your mind you may

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<v Speaker 2>believe it is pointed at you or it's about to

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<v Speaker 2>be pointed at you, but it's you don't have to wait.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't have to put yourself in harm's way before

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<v Speaker 2>you defend yourself. That's the way we would look at

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<v Speaker 2>those kind of cases again.

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<v Speaker 1>And I look at the cases, and there was two

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<v Speaker 1>in Nashville. There was two cops in and around Columbus

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<v Speaker 1>that had a fleeing suspect and they didn't pull out

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<v Speaker 1>their weapons immediately. And he's running away, and he's running away,

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<v Speaker 1>but he reaches with his right hand under his left

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<v Speaker 1>armpit and fire shots out the cops and hits two

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<v Speaker 1>of them. They go down, and one of the officers

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<v Speaker 1>was able to return fire, shooting the assailant who was

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<v Speaker 1>running away. That was identical to Ryan Hinton. Situation identical,

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<v Speaker 1>and you would not even think about indicting the police

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<v Speaker 1>officers who survived the shooting, even though they did not know.

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<v Speaker 1>They did not know he had a gun until he

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<v Speaker 1>fired it. They just went to a scene and the

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<v Speaker 1>guy's running away and then they get shot, then they respond.

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<v Speaker 1>That's how close. Now for the police officer in Cincinnati

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<v Speaker 1>directly involved, the last thirty days has been hell for

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<v Speaker 1>him because I would think he's worried about getting indicted.

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<v Speaker 1>He's worried about his life, his work life, being over

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<v Speaker 1>as we know it. And I had on Connie Pilich

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<v Speaker 1>about two or three weeks ago and on a Friday,

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<v Speaker 1>she told me, this was like ten days after the

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<v Speaker 1>event took place, that she had seen no evidence to

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<v Speaker 1>indicate that any police officer committed a crime. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>what she said. And I had on the corner thereafter

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<v Speaker 1>who said that the kill shot came from under the armpit. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>there was a bullet that went into his body and

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<v Speaker 1>lodged in the back of his neck, but she said

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<v Speaker 1>that wasn't that wasn't an entry room in the back,

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<v Speaker 1>and that she refused to say he was shot in

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<v Speaker 1>the back, which is what the activists are saying. And

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<v Speaker 1>so lastly I'll ask you this, Mark Pete Meyer, if

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<v Speaker 1>if this case is presented to the grand jury at

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<v Speaker 1>this point, is grand jury subpoena is out but the

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<v Speaker 1>grand jury's not heard the case. What's the differential between

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<v Speaker 1>grand jury subpoena is being out and a grand jury

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<v Speaker 1>convened to hear this case or those different things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, grand jury subpoena would be issued, maybe to the

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<v Speaker 2>coroner's office to get all their records. That might be

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<v Speaker 2>issued to Cincini police to get all the body camera

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<v Speaker 2>footage so that Connie and the other people in the

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<v Speaker 2>office kept guying, and Seth Tiger, maybe a Heidi Rosalie

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<v Speaker 2>can look at the and Katie Burrows some of the

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<v Speaker 2>key people there in Mark Tierney can look at all

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<v Speaker 2>the evidence and then they will make a decision based

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<v Speaker 2>on everything they've seen. Is this something they have to

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<v Speaker 2>present to a brand jury. But again, I think they

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<v Speaker 2>will look at it and everything I've seen so far

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<v Speaker 2>that you know, Connie hasn't really changed the way she

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<v Speaker 2>approaches these cases then any of the other prosecutors I

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<v Speaker 2>worked for did. Is that you're going to, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>do the right thing, and if there's not enough there

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<v Speaker 2>to to adet or if you don't think there's enough

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<v Speaker 2>there that you would want to actually try the case,

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<v Speaker 2>then you don't present it. And if some people want

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<v Speaker 2>to criticize you about it. I know Joe Dieters, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>over the years to go out of criticism and he said, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>if run against me in four years in you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if you don't like the job I'm doing. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think they're continuing that same tradition in the office today.

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<v Speaker 1>And the standard of Connie Pillage is do I believe

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<v Speaker 1>if I cause an indictment to be issued against this

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<v Speaker 1>police officer in Cincinnati, do I believe I can get

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<v Speaker 1>a conviction at trial? Is that the standard?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, it's I believe that that's a standard we use,

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<v Speaker 2>and I believe she would use the same one. Is

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<v Speaker 2>this something if the grand jury, you know, you can't

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<v Speaker 2>present it to the grand jury and they indicted, and

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<v Speaker 2>you come out and say, well, even though the grand

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<v Speaker 2>jury indicted, I'm going to dismiss the case. That would

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<v Speaker 2>be wrong. You have to live with their decisions. So

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<v Speaker 2>to me, you would not present a case unless you're

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<v Speaker 2>ready to go to court with it.

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<v Speaker 1>Are you confident Connie Pillage will make the right decision?

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<v Speaker 2>I am. Everything I've seen of what she's done so

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<v Speaker 2>far in the office and the people she's put in

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<v Speaker 2>place in the office, I believe she'll do the right thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Mark Pete Maer, I trust you implicitly. Once again, thank

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<v Speaker 1>you for your forty five years of service, beginning with

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<v Speaker 1>Side Lease and ending with Connie Pillage. You've seen it all,

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<v Speaker 1>You've done it all, and once again, thanks for coming

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<v Speaker 1>on the Bill Cunningham Show. I say this quite often,

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<v Speaker 1>but Mark Pete Meyer, You're a great American. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, thank you, Bill, goodbye.

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<v Speaker 1>God bless you. Let's continue with more. There it is.

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<v Speaker 1>And the only bad part as we sit here on

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<v Speaker 1>what June the second, in the afternoon, is that this

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<v Speaker 1>police officer is still held in abey and so let's

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<v Speaker 1>continue with more. Bill Cunningham News next to Jerome of

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<v Speaker 1>the Reds News Radio seven hundred WLW