Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
Speaker 1: What I Welcome back to the Occult Rejects. Today's guest
Speaker 1: is Eliza and she is a tower reader, tarrant teacher, astrologer,
Speaker 1: and lifelong writer, and graduate of the Iowa Writers Workshop.
Speaker 1: She's the author of the brand new Tarot of the Unconscious,
Speaker 1: Uncovering the hidden link between psychoanalysis and the Cards. Her
Speaker 1: previous two books are The Little Book of Saturn and
Speaker 1: A Mystical Practical Guide to Magic. She's a psychoanalysis in
Speaker 1: training in New York City. You can find her at
Speaker 1: Elisa Einhorn dot com or Elisa of Brooklyn on Instagram.
Speaker 1: And yes, she does do readings and she's also available
Speaker 1: for in person psychoanalytic treatment. Now, before we introduce her,
Speaker 1: let me introduce Judith. What is going on? Judith?
Speaker 2: I'm fine. Thank you for having me today, Nick, Alisa,
Speaker 2: I look forward to our discussion and for everybody else.
Speaker 2: You can find me on spreaker x I'm sorry, yes
Speaker 2: X and YouTube as the Loom awesome.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for making you. Judith, I really
Speaker 1: appreciate it. And Alisa, please let everybody know where they
Speaker 1: can I mean I already kind of mentioned where they
Speaker 1: can find you. There's anything else you'd like to promote
Speaker 1: or say, or you know, please go ahead.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm happy to be here, first of all, and
Speaker 3: I'm happy to be a reject today with you, with you,
Speaker 3: it's fun. Anything I want to promote? Huh? Well, I
Speaker 3: do have a new book that's coming out. It's supposed
Speaker 3: to be June first, if everything stays in alignment, June first,
Speaker 3: is the data comes out? Oh, you mentioned the title
Speaker 3: I wrote, Taro of the Unconscious. Yeah, yes, oh, what
Speaker 3: a exciting thing.
Speaker 1: It hasn't come out yet.
Speaker 3: No, so it's pre ordered time. Pre orders make the
Speaker 3: publisher so happy. So you could make a small, smallish
Speaker 3: independent occult publisher very very happy if the book interests
Speaker 3: you by clicking on that buy now link wherever you
Speaker 3: see it.
Speaker 1: Oh that's great. Yeah. You know what's funny. When I
Speaker 1: received the book, I just assume that they're out and
Speaker 1: I forget that they can send them to me early.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm glad you got it.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah weiser, yep, yeah nice? Oh yeah, was
Speaker 1: there any I think I might have interrupted you? Is
Speaker 1: there anything else you wanted to say? I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3: That's now. That's that's the main thing. Also, I think
Speaker 3: of new and new and exciting promotions.
Speaker 1: Real quick, just because I'm interested that. I just thought
Speaker 1: of it. Now, have you been in New York your
Speaker 1: whole life?
Speaker 3: No, I'm actually not from here, Although I get accused
Speaker 3: of it a lot. People call me a New Yorker. No,
Speaker 3: I've been in New York since two thousand and one.
Speaker 3: I was here for nine to elevens. I was here
Speaker 3: that January. Yeah, and then I've been here mostly since
Speaker 3: that time.
Speaker 1: Very nice, Okay, No, I was just wondering because all
Speaker 1: three of us are from New York. But that's cool. Cool?
Speaker 3: Am I am? I a real New Yorker after being
Speaker 3: here for that long? Does it count?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah it does.
Speaker 3: Judith says, yes.
Speaker 1: I could have no idea. I think it sounds long enough.
Speaker 1: It sounds long enough to me. But I guess how
Speaker 1: long does it take for somebody to switch over? Because
Speaker 1: I've been in North Carolina for two years? I got
Speaker 1: a couple more years, I guess before I'm a North
Speaker 1: Caro not with.
Speaker 2: Your accent, for reverse doesn't work in New York. You're
Speaker 2: always in New Yorker.
Speaker 3: I think that's true.
Speaker 1: So at Lisa, like I asked everybody on the show
Speaker 1: pretty much, how did you find yourself? Like, how did
Speaker 1: you end up getting into taro in astrology? How did
Speaker 1: that happen?
Speaker 3: It was a twist of fate, you know, I remember
Speaker 3: it well. Actually, do you remember AOL? I was asking
Speaker 3: you if you're young enough to remember AOL and those
Speaker 3: discs and the dial up. So this was then in
Speaker 3: the those early days of the Internet. Yeah, I had
Speaker 3: a friend who was into astrology. I didn't know anything
Speaker 3: about it. There wasn't that much astrology on the web.
Speaker 3: It was so new. And then by chance, if you
Speaker 3: believe in chance, I wound up on something like I
Speaker 3: was about to say, I Googled. I didn't Google because
Speaker 3: Google didn't exist, but I what was it? Asked Jeeves?
Speaker 3: Do you remember? Asked? This is like, sorry, this is
Speaker 3: gen X nostalgia times, so, you know, very old search engine.
Speaker 3: I look up my son's sign, and you know what
Speaker 3: came up. I think her name is Susan Miller. She's
Speaker 3: probably still around, like this big astrologer, Susan Miller. She
Speaker 3: has this cy called astrology Zone. And I read my
Speaker 3: horoscope and it was so accurate. And this was back
Speaker 3: in what was this two thousand, I think probably two
Speaker 3: thousand and three, something like that, and I just I
Speaker 3: couldn't believe it. And then again I went on a
Speaker 3: search and internet search and I found it in person class.
Speaker 3: So I went for years to an astrology class every
Speaker 3: week in person, learned astrology. And then he also that
Speaker 3: teacher also taught us a little tarot. So that was
Speaker 3: the beginning. And I never thought I would do it
Speaker 3: for a living. I just thought it was cool. It
Speaker 3: was so accurate. I started getting readings from him. I
Speaker 3: just I felt it explained me in my life so
Speaker 3: succinctly accurately. And then that that was it. I was
Speaker 3: kidnapped by by the occult.
Speaker 1: That is that is really like that's amazing, how like
Speaker 1: you even your experience with like getting interested in it
Speaker 1: and then being able to find an in person class
Speaker 1: right away, Like that's a great experience. Like you didn't
Speaker 1: have to go like I guess shift through the garbage
Speaker 1: on the internet.
Speaker 3: You know exactly, there was no garbage or different garbage.
Speaker 2: Yeah, back then you didn't have to go through the internet.
Speaker 2: You had that magazine called Apex.
Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't know that was that local or that
Speaker 3: was in New York.
Speaker 2: You would, you would get it in Now they use
Speaker 2: it as trash bins, those yellow bins with the free
Speaker 2: magazines on every court, and then you just grab one
Speaker 2: of them. And they had every Every different class you
Speaker 2: wanted to go to was in there. And I think
Speaker 2: they did have astrology classes in there as well, in
Speaker 2: there probably.
Speaker 3: And crystal skulls. I remember this place that I used
Speaker 3: to go to. They would host all kinds of things.
Speaker 3: It's not it's not there anymore, but there was astrology,
Speaker 3: you know, astrology and reiki and tarot and all kinds
Speaker 3: of New agey stuff. But my teacher was a high magician.
Speaker 3: You had mentioned off air, Judith that you were, well,
Speaker 3: I don't know if I should be allowed.
Speaker 2: To say this. No, I do say it all the time.
Speaker 2: I'm into high magic, Okay. I do consider myself a
Speaker 2: practicing high magician, okay, because that.
Speaker 3: Was his thing too. But this place, like it had
Speaker 3: all kinds of it's just like a circus of just weird,
Speaker 3: are we like? I can swear right, I don't know, yes, okay,
Speaker 3: and at all kinds of weird shit. And always remember
Speaker 3: the the crystal skulls. So you could take your astrology
Speaker 3: class and you could go to a meditation class, and
Speaker 3: then if you wanted, you could do something really bizarre.
Speaker 1: That is cool. Is there any shops in Brooklyn anymore.
Speaker 2: That's outside of Botanica's.
Speaker 3: There are Botanica's. There are I can think of. Yeah,
Speaker 3: just one shop that sells dried herbs. But so you
Speaker 3: mean what you mean a place like that for classes.
Speaker 1: Or like in occult shop at all, like out in
Speaker 1: Brooklyn right.
Speaker 3: Now, I think closed.
Speaker 1: Oh that was the one I was trying to think
Speaker 1: of in my head and I couldn't remember, and I
Speaker 1: was like, I don't know if it's still open. I
Speaker 1: remember that place. Yeah that's what. Yeah, that was like
Speaker 1: that was like well known for a minute, like that
Speaker 1: was kind of a staple for any practicing magician in Brooklyn.
Speaker 3: They went, yeah, sure was. I think it's gone.
Speaker 2: You had enchantments too in Manhattan.
Speaker 1: Oh I've been to that. Yeah. Yeah, that's a wild store.
Speaker 2: And down the street you have flower Powers.
Speaker 1: Hers. Yes, that's awesome.
Speaker 3: Yo.
Speaker 1: Their arms were sick. They had like really excited, but
Speaker 1: like their rbs were really nice.
Speaker 3: Flower Power is great. That's that's my place, flower Power.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know I really like that stuff. Yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 1: Wow memories. Thanks.
Speaker 2: Do you know what happened to uh, the cat?
Speaker 3: I don't, but I think it's been a few years
Speaker 3: since they've closed.
Speaker 1: I wonder if COVID screwed them up.
Speaker 2: COVID screwed a lot of places.
Speaker 1: Especially small businesses like that. Yeah, unless you're like money wondering,
Speaker 1: you really probably can't make it through that type of situation. No,
Speaker 1: you know why I'm saying that. It was funny. I
Speaker 1: was at my family's house yesterday. We were talking about
Speaker 1: just like places closing, and my father was like, yo,
Speaker 1: he's like what he brought up a situation with me
Speaker 1: where during COVID there was say all these places shut
Speaker 1: down and then eventually they started reopening and like this
Speaker 1: store that was there for I should you not? It
Speaker 1: was like a VCR repair store, And I was like,
Speaker 1: how did you survive that and open back up? I'm like,
Speaker 1: come on, that's swoom. You gotta be doing something else.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, won't go there? Yeah, what
Speaker 1: are you getting five customers a year? Like? Something else
Speaker 1: is going on to keep that store open. But we're
Speaker 1: get we're getting off the topic now. I did want
Speaker 1: to ask you, uh, Elisa, so we could give for
Speaker 1: the listeners who may not know your work yet, how
Speaker 1: would you describe the thread that connects astrology, tarot, magic, writing,
Speaker 1: and psychoanalysis in your life?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Wow, take as much time as you want.
Speaker 3: What a question? How would I describe the thread? Well,
Speaker 3: so you've got me literally wanting to describe a thread
Speaker 3: like it's this, it's this, Uh, this is the width
Speaker 3: of the thread, and this is the color of the thread.
Speaker 3: I know there is a thread because I do them all,
Speaker 3: so it does exist. You know, writing was there first
Speaker 3: because I was always a writer, and then decades later
Speaker 3: the astrology, and then the taro, and then the magic,
Speaker 3: and then I mean the psychoanalysis. I don't know if
Speaker 3: you're well versed in astrological transits or you know the listeners.
Speaker 3: Some folks maybe known, But for me, psychoanalysis was a
Speaker 3: Urinus transit. When Urinus comes to your chart, you know,
Speaker 3: when it's aspecting certain planets, when it moves through a
Speaker 3: certain house. I mean, it's always going to change your life.
Speaker 3: But for me it was quite literal because Urinus in
Speaker 3: Taurus was my ninth house. Ninth House has to do
Speaker 3: with publishing, It has to do with higher education. Urinus
Speaker 3: is weird, unexpected, out of the blue, and I went
Speaker 3: back to school. Maybe it's all It might all be
Speaker 3: Urinus transits. Actually, in my life, have you ever noticed
Speaker 3: that that some people, at least on the outside, seem
Speaker 3: to have very their path seems kind of orderly, orderly
Speaker 3: organized quotes like I'm thinking of certain people, that's just
Speaker 3: straight lines, so to speak.
Speaker 1: Everything seems to always transition.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, yeah, transition. Well, they're not on the verge
Speaker 3: of homelessness, they're not discovering astrology, their relationships are not toxic.
Speaker 3: It's just kind of chill, I guess. And then there's
Speaker 3: the Uranian people, and it's always seem all over the place,
Speaker 3: but they they are not It could be yeah or.
Speaker 2: They, but they tend to be you. They tend to
Speaker 2: be thinkers because it's like they put things together that
Speaker 2: you wouldn't think would fit in perfectly.
Speaker 3: Hmmm. That might be what Nick was. That might be
Speaker 3: when Nick was getting at He's like, how do all
Speaker 3: these things relate? And I'm thinking, like I don't know.
Speaker 3: I don't because I don't. I haven't analyzed it. I
Speaker 3: haven't thought about it in that way. But but you
Speaker 3: know what, that's what the book is about. Actually, the
Speaker 3: book is about that. I went back to school and
Speaker 3: I thought I thought I was going to leave something behind,
Speaker 3: and then I realized that they actually.
Speaker 1: He brought it all forward with you. I what you
Speaker 1: kind of like brought it all forward with you, and
Speaker 1: you know, kind of yeah, there was an alchemist and
Speaker 1: transmuted it into what you're what you're doing now exactly.
Speaker 3: I like that. That's a good metaphor. Yeah, like I thought,
Speaker 3: I thought my life was going to be at odds
Speaker 3: or in pieces or fragmented, and I think I still
Speaker 3: feel that way a bit. But then I just discovered, oh,
Speaker 3: this it's not at odds. Like you you really can
Speaker 3: you really can be yourself whatever you've been, whoever you are,
Speaker 3: and do something new. So old dogs learning new tricks,
Speaker 3: as they say, do you.
Speaker 2: Think you we defined the map what most people consider
Speaker 2: a general map of where you're supposed to go, and
Speaker 2: you just said, you know what, I don't want to
Speaker 2: do this straight line. I want to just do some
Speaker 2: I want to make some waves.
Speaker 3: No, I didn't have I don't think I had any choice.
Speaker 3: It wasn't a decision for me. It's never a decision.
Speaker 3: It's just life happens.
Speaker 2: Can you can you band on that?
Speaker 3: Before before we started recording, we were talking about whether
Speaker 3: you were a Libra or a Virgo, and I feel
Speaker 3: like I feel like I'm feeling them both as you
Speaker 3: asked me that question. Now I don't remember what the
Speaker 3: question was.
Speaker 2: No, I'm just asking you to expand on like you
Speaker 2: didn't have a choice.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I didn't decide. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't. Uh,
Speaker 3: I didn't decide one day I'm going to be an astrologer.
Speaker 3: I'm going to take an astro. It was all very
Speaker 3: uh oh astrology. My you know, my friend is into it.
Speaker 3: I read something and it was accurate. Let's see, like
Speaker 3: it's all on a lark, kind of like the fool Card.
Speaker 3: I feel like my life has been very fool Card
Speaker 3: more than Emperor, like right, like Emperor is very structured.
Speaker 3: So it was it wasn't a plan. It definitely wasn't
Speaker 3: a plan to be weird or to get into these
Speaker 3: things like it just kind of happened. Or people will
Speaker 3: say like I didn't find it. It found me and
Speaker 3: even I was learning astrology, I never thought I would
Speaker 3: do it for a living. And I actually still remember
Speaker 3: the day. I was a pet sitter for a long time.
Speaker 3: I was dog walking and cat sitting and doing other
Speaker 3: kinds of writing because I was a poet, writing poems
Speaker 3: and writing plays. And I remember the day in Union Square.
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's still there. There was a
Speaker 3: McDonald's in Union Square and I was just sitting there
Speaker 3: because it was raining. I still wanted Okay, it's still there,
Speaker 3: and I just needed to get dry and just get
Speaker 3: out of that terrible New York rain. And I was
Speaker 3: just so frustrated. And I remember saying to myself, I
Speaker 3: was frustrated with poetry. I was frustrated with all my
Speaker 3: creative writing, saying to myself, you know what, I'm going
Speaker 3: to blog. I'm going to blog and all my writing
Speaker 3: is going to have to be about astrology because I
Speaker 3: need it to I need my life to be less frustrating.
Speaker 3: So I'm going to put all my eggs in that basket.
Speaker 3: And at the time, that was like a really that
Speaker 3: was a strange thing to do because not that many
Speaker 3: people were doing it. But I did make that decision
Speaker 3: then that there was something in this other world for
Speaker 3: me that was calling to me. I don't know if
Speaker 3: I made any sense at.
Speaker 1: All, No, No, you did. You did. It actually made
Speaker 1: me think about myself a lot, and you just oh
Speaker 1: tell us, well just even for me, like how like
Speaker 1: this was like something I kind of got interested in,
Speaker 1: and I might have had like a few books trying
Speaker 1: to learn a little bit of stuff, and then like
Speaker 1: some one day I was just like, you know, why
Speaker 1: didn't I see if there's like a like an order
Speaker 1: or something I can join. And I was a member
Speaker 1: of the OTO for a while, so like even kind
Speaker 1: of how like you were saying that you ended up
Speaker 1: like that's why I thought it was kind of interesting
Speaker 1: that you you kind of like jumped right into like
Speaker 1: hands on stuff, And even for myself, I did kind
Speaker 1: of quickly make the change from like finding things on
Speaker 1: the internet, finding a few books and then I just
Speaker 1: joined an order like real quick. And I even just
Speaker 1: remember then like before I did that before, like when
Speaker 1: I went to the OTO and then you know, made
Speaker 1: the decision that I'll keep coming back. I even just
Speaker 1: remember then like like I know this is going to
Speaker 1: be like if I'm going to do this. It's going
Speaker 1: to be serious. They're going to make a part of
Speaker 1: my life. And it just it was very much like
Speaker 1: kind of just like just happened. I don't know, it's
Speaker 1: hard to explain. It was just very a very quick
Speaker 1: process for me, and I think, I, you know, in
Speaker 1: some ways, I'm very lucky that I got, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of exposed as much as you know, I, I
Speaker 1: guess I don't promote the organization that much. There was
Speaker 1: a lot of value out.
Speaker 3: Of joining it for me, and now here you are.
Speaker 1: Did this exactly. And I never even when I left there,
Speaker 1: did I even have the idea too much or the
Speaker 1: idea at all that I'd be doing this. And then
Speaker 1: five years later it's like, how did It's just wild.
Speaker 1: It's like I just went on. I jumped on a
Speaker 1: roller coaster and just let it take me where I went.
Speaker 3: Hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 2: The Fool card, Oh.
Speaker 1: I fully played the Fool Yes?
Speaker 3: Or the Tower or the Wheel of Fortune.
Speaker 1: I like the Wheel of Fortune. I actually liked that
Speaker 1: card a lot. I like that one.
Speaker 3: Number ten.
Speaker 1: It's a good one. Yeah. It was either that or
Speaker 1: the Empress that I was later on we'll get to
Speaker 1: and maybe just ask you to kind of go over
Speaker 1: a little bit. But I did have something I think
Speaker 1: is great about having you on. Then other Tarot people
Speaker 1: that I've had on recently and didn't realize how many
Speaker 1: of them were into Young before I had them, all
Speaker 1: Oh okay, So I'm happy that I have you on
Speaker 1: because you kind of look at it in a fruity
Speaker 1: and for how have you said? Psychoanalysis?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Young, he's permeated. Is there a terror book
Speaker 3: that doesn't have some cabalistic framework which is not explained
Speaker 3: and probably not understood by the author and Jungian you know,
Speaker 3: no shade on the grates even though I just said that,
Speaker 3: but you know, I mean if you're a Tarot person
Speaker 3: and you know how it has perfumed, uh you know kabbalistic?
Speaker 1: Oh you just said that.
Speaker 3: And Siriah. And also to the YouTubers who who added
Speaker 3: in or you know wherever they're being heard and they
Speaker 3: can't even pronounce the Hebrew words, give me a fucking break.
Speaker 3: There's a basic Hebrew before you're gonna do that talk
Speaker 3: about the tree of life.
Speaker 1: If I was able to do it, If I was
Speaker 1: able to do it, anybody can do it.
Speaker 3: I'm sure yours is perfect.
Speaker 1: I love how you said that. I will always try
Speaker 1: to mention that on the show. And anybody ever have
Speaker 1: on for Taro more times out of they normally say no,
Speaker 1: but I always do Askoul, do you attribute to cards
Speaker 1: to the cabalistic tree of life? I mean that's how
Speaker 1: I study.
Speaker 3: People study the Kabbala for decades for you know, your
Speaker 3: entire freaking life.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it.
Speaker 3: And and Taro Tanya is showing up with her cabalistic
Speaker 3: attributions and her book. It's like, no, just stop, stop
Speaker 3: it all all right, you got me all riled up now.
Speaker 3: But I guess I went there because it was Jung
Speaker 3: also has that place as he the water. Basically, I'm
Speaker 3: talking about like watered down, barely understood or very very
Speaker 3: watered down ideas that they just they get cherry picked
Speaker 3: and show up. So it's weird, right, The history of
Speaker 3: Tarot books is kind of weird in that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but uh, I guess yeah. And that question
Speaker 1: that I had your book connects Taro with Freudian psychoanalysis.
Speaker 1: What was the moment where those those two worlds stopped
Speaker 1: feeling separate to you and kind of came together or
Speaker 1: was it like that or did you see it like
Speaker 1: that from the beginning.
Speaker 3: I didn't see it like that from the beginning. And
Speaker 3: the book does talk. I mean, that is what the
Speaker 3: book is about. And I and I also say in
Speaker 3: the book anything from Freud or psychoanalysis. I am just
Speaker 3: scratching the surface. I mean, I'm in training. I'm not
Speaker 3: a you know, I'm not the expert of the world here.
Speaker 3: But I had no idea that that was going to
Speaker 3: happen because I went back to school. I went into
Speaker 3: psychoanalytic training, thinking that these two worlds had nothing to
Speaker 3: do with each other. And then I realized that that
Speaker 3: wasn't the case. See, I shouldn't give it all away,
Speaker 3: so people should get the book and then find out
Speaker 3: what the secrets are. But I just I fell in
Speaker 3: love with Freud. I had never read him. I mean,
Speaker 3: I knew who he was. Of course, I've heard of him.
Speaker 3: I knew some basic basic basics. I knew, oh, there's
Speaker 3: this thing called the unconscious. But it wasn't until I
Speaker 3: read him in translation. Mind you, that's how most of
Speaker 3: us read him. We're not reading in the original. But
Speaker 3: I was reading Freud, and one thing led to another,
Speaker 3: and there are certain pivotal moments.
Speaker 1: Okay, what did psychoanalysis kind of reveal, Like when you
Speaker 1: started getting into that, did it Did it open up
Speaker 1: tarot to you? Like? Did you see a whole new
Speaker 1: world of taro once you started getting into that too? More?
Speaker 3: No, it didn't. Okay, it didn't work in that direction.
Speaker 3: I think it just worked in the in the other one,
Speaker 3: in the opposite direction. That that how this idea of
Speaker 3: free association. Freud's idea of free association basically talk therapy,
Speaker 3: that letting your mind wander I mean I'm speaking in
Speaker 3: very you know, plain English here, but letting your mind
Speaker 3: wander from from thing to thing, that there was value
Speaker 3: in that and that it would lead you someone like
Speaker 3: it's not just gibberish. When I work with patients at
Speaker 3: the clinic or i'm training, they'll say that, and I'll
Speaker 3: say it too when I'm in my own analysis, like, oh,
Speaker 3: I'm just you know, where am I going with this?
Speaker 3: People think that they're getting off track, But someone who's
Speaker 3: trained to listen, we see the patterns because there are patterns.
Speaker 3: We are understanding what they don't understand. You know, the
Speaker 3: person lying on the couch what they don't understand or
Speaker 3: you know, when I'm in my analysis. And then I
Speaker 3: saw that that was what we need to do with Taro.
Speaker 3: And really what we already do is free associate, and
Speaker 3: you know what people are terrified to do it. You know.
Speaker 1: That's uh, it's very interesting because I think that held
Speaker 1: me back from ever looking at Taro, because I already
Speaker 1: figured like just certain ways that it was always like structured.
Speaker 1: It told to me that I'm supposed to see the card.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I just didn't get it, and I just figured like,
Speaker 1: well if I don't, okay, why even bald Like, I'm
Speaker 1: just looking at it wrong. So that Tarot completely differently.
Speaker 2: So then this.
Speaker 3: Book is for you, Nick. This book is for you
Speaker 3: because it says, throw away all the books. They're interesting,
Speaker 3: you can read them. I give me. I give interpretations
Speaker 3: in the book, but I also say, it's your personal associations.
Speaker 3: That's that's a gold mine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a form of getting out of your way. Yes,
Speaker 2: I do have a question for you, Nick, was that
Speaker 2: before or after you became familiar with the Tree of
Speaker 2: Life before?
Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah, Once I came across the Tree of Life
Speaker 1: and I was like, well again just going back to
Speaker 1: even just to Hoodie Lodge. As soon as you walked
Speaker 1: in and if you sat down on that one side,
Speaker 1: you had that big picture of the tarot cards on
Speaker 1: the Tree of Life. And I remember seeing that. I
Speaker 1: was like, ah, I love you know, Cabala. I was like,
Speaker 1: I got to try it out this way. And even
Speaker 1: hearing a lot of people there again another good reason
Speaker 1: why I say that going there, a lot of people
Speaker 1: would say just meditate on the card and let whatever
Speaker 1: comes in, man, you know, and that kind of like
Speaker 1: it was like, all right, well, you know, I guess
Speaker 1: there is some free will to this now to an extent,
Speaker 1: you know, and if I can try to look at
Speaker 1: it in a kabalistic sense, it's just for some reason
Speaker 1: that just popped out at me at that point.
Speaker 2: To go back to Freud real quick, Eliza, when you
Speaker 2: first got into astrology, because I know you have the
Speaker 2: inner conversation and the outer conversation when it comes to astrology.
Speaker 2: And did did the people you the people and I
Speaker 2: don't want to say experts, but the people who were
Speaker 2: already involved in it hint that this was a connection.
Speaker 3: Wait that which was a connection?
Speaker 2: I got lost the Freud the Freud philosophy and Taro
Speaker 2: and astrology.
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, no, no, In fact, it was it
Speaker 3: was the opposite, or I assumed that it would be
Speaker 3: the opposite that in that if you're I mean, I
Speaker 3: think this runs through just psychology in general, psychology, psychoanalysis,
Speaker 3: that these aren't I think there's a divide. These aren't
Speaker 3: spiritual places. Maybe there's some where it may merge, but
Speaker 3: it's taboo because psychology or psychoanalysis, this is science. It's
Speaker 3: not the where the occult belongs, the occult, magic, ghosts, divination,
Speaker 3: all that stuff.
Speaker 2: So astrology was considered a like more like pseudo instead
Speaker 2: of actual science.
Speaker 3: Oh for sure.
Speaker 2: Now people are taking it as science astrology, Yeah, Tara,
Speaker 2: not so much.
Speaker 1: I did want to ask not to keep keep you
Speaker 1: going here.
Speaker 3: With you you can harp.
Speaker 1: Freyd against Young because so that it gets you going.
Speaker 1: So it's not like I'm trying to, like, you know,
Speaker 1: fuel your fire. But I understand you just probably passionate
Speaker 1: on this. What does Freud give Tower readers that Young
Speaker 1: does not?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I don't I can't say for sure
Speaker 3: what Young does give Taroor readers. I just know that
Speaker 3: his water down ideas found their way into terror books.
Speaker 3: You know, I can't I can't speak to that. I mean, no,
Speaker 3: how do I put this? No one has to abide
Speaker 3: by my way? You know, no one has to like Freud,
Speaker 3: agree with Freud. Think Freud was right about the psyche,
Speaker 3: you know, like it's it's there's no conversion necessary here.
Speaker 3: But what do you do when you give yourself a reading,
Speaker 3: or when or when you give a reading for someone
Speaker 3: else you pull a card? Are you really gonna marry
Speaker 3: the meaning in a book? Or are you gonna go within?
Speaker 3: I think Freud gives us that. Does young give us
Speaker 3: that too? Maybe I don't know. I don't know. I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 1: No, I get that, I what you're saying.
Speaker 3: But it's it's a more. It's an idea of a
Speaker 3: personal unconscious. I mean when Freud, when Freud was analyzing
Speaker 3: his patience dreams, the key to those dreams was in
Speaker 3: the telling. Their telling of the dreams would lead us
Speaker 3: to meaning like the person not necessarily which is I
Speaker 3: mean this I know about YOUNGA is a Jungian idea
Speaker 3: of this collective unconscious. I'm not talking about a collective
Speaker 3: unconscious in this book. I'm talking about you, like the reader,
Speaker 3: the person. So here's Nick, here's Judith. They're going to
Speaker 3: pull some cards for themselves or for each other, and
Speaker 3: that meaning is going to be personal. And that at
Speaker 3: the very least is on the same level as oh, well,
Speaker 3: you know the Empress. You look it up in a
Speaker 3: book and it says fertility and creativity. And I try
Speaker 3: in the book to model this, like in my interpretations
Speaker 3: in my tarot spreads, to show people like, see, look
Speaker 3: you can do this. You can come up with your
Speaker 3: own interpretations upright, reversed whatever direction you want. Does that
Speaker 3: make sense?
Speaker 1: Yeah, reminds me. Yeah, that was kind of reminding me
Speaker 1: of me. That's what I was laughing because I was
Speaker 1: even thinking, like I remember once I finally was like,
Speaker 1: oh you know now I actually kind of want to
Speaker 1: play with Tyro.
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 1: I think I was using Donald Michael Craig's book like
Speaker 1: his spreads, but I was trying to attribute it like kacabolistically.
Speaker 1: It's just oh I know that name. Why do I
Speaker 1: know that thirteen or in High Magic?
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh I think I do have that book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all. It's such a staple for a lot
Speaker 1: of people. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. I just brought back memories.
Speaker 2: For a lot of listeners, that's usually the first one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my first one. That was my and
Speaker 1: it was actually suggested to me by a wick and witch.
Speaker 1: But they knew that I was more leaning towards ceremonial
Speaker 1: magic because they were like, I think you would actually
Speaker 1: be more into the ceremonial magic. So when I was
Speaker 1: kind of like asking them, like, you know, where should
Speaker 1: I go if I'm interested in this stuff, and they're like,
Speaker 1: you just your personality and what you're interested in already,
Speaker 1: the like you look at the Oto and Golden Dawn. Probably,
Speaker 1: I was like, all.
Speaker 3: Right, but a big book from what I remember.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it was yeah, for sure, for
Speaker 1: sure there is a lot in there, you know what.
Speaker 1: I was having a thought, Uh, I'm trying to I
Speaker 1: hope I can like word it perfectly because they kind
Speaker 1: of did forget about a little bit of it. But
Speaker 1: I was wondering, like, you know how like sometimes you
Speaker 1: can definitely see how there's a little bit of different
Speaker 1: styles in Taro. You know, obviously you'll get some people
Speaker 1: that are much more kind of like telling you what's
Speaker 1: gonna go on in your outside world, and then you
Speaker 1: have ones that actually do kind of go in and
Speaker 1: tell you what's going on inside, maybe ahead or such
Speaker 1: certain situations or whatever. Do you think that could even
Speaker 1: be like a reason why some people may not catch
Speaker 1: like maybe like Freud's influence or see how that can
Speaker 1: match because just the simple fact of you do have
Speaker 1: a lot of people that aren't even using taro to
Speaker 1: go inside yourself anyway when they do reading.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm not.
Speaker 1: Trying to knock those people. I'm just saying just the
Speaker 1: different styles. If you even understand what I'm getting at
Speaker 1: with that.
Speaker 3: Maybe, well I think you're talking about the difference between
Speaker 3: prediction and everything else.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly exactly.
Speaker 3: Because I'm not anti prediction.
Speaker 1: Oh no, novenation.
Speaker 3: I do it myself in readings. But this book is
Speaker 3: about a different way, another way to approach it.
Speaker 1: Okay, No, I was just wondering if you ever thought
Speaker 1: maybe that could have something to do with it.
Speaker 3: That people don't want to be like the hermit card
Speaker 3: and look inside.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I said before, it's scary, like who wants
Speaker 3: to do that? I mean, I think some people are
Speaker 3: inclined to right. Some people are inclined to introspection. You know,
Speaker 3: it could be their their character, their nature, and they
Speaker 3: might you know what I mean, they might not want
Speaker 3: to look outwards. But I think, oh yeah, sorry, no good,
Speaker 3: Oh not just gonna say. I think it's a lot
Speaker 3: safer to have that little white book, you know, that
Speaker 3: little white book that comes with all those or used
Speaker 3: to come with the right away Smith decks. It's so
Speaker 3: much easier, right to just read a map than to
Speaker 3: go off in a new direction.
Speaker 1: Safer. Yeah, I get that. I get that. I was
Speaker 1: like that in other ways with magic or you don't
Speaker 1: looking at myself. I actually regretted how much time I
Speaker 1: wasted before I started doing shadow work.
Speaker 2: Which actually speaking the shadow work. One of the things
Speaker 2: when people start getting in the terror, most people feel
Speaker 2: free to say is you shouldn't read yourself.
Speaker 3: Hmm, I wonder what you know? I I I think
Speaker 3: we should. I think we should do readings for ourselves. Absolutely.
Speaker 3: Is it always easy now, it's not always easy to
Speaker 3: read for someone else. And depending what you're looking for,
Speaker 3: are you looking for answers? Are you looking to explore?
Speaker 3: But I think people are missing out if they're not
Speaker 3: doing readings for themselves. What do you think Judus, I'm
Speaker 3: turning the tables.
Speaker 2: I feel the same way too. It's just that you
Speaker 2: have to be in a mindset to accept what you see.
Speaker 2: If you're if you're not at that place where you
Speaker 2: you accept, or you're willing to make a change of something,
Speaker 2: it won't work. But to outright tell someone not to
Speaker 2: read themselves, I don't agree.
Speaker 3: With Do people Are they actually saying that, like, don't
Speaker 3: read for yourself?
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 3: That's weird. But why say such a crazy thing?
Speaker 2: I think that now is if you're reading for someone else,
Speaker 2: you see their truth, but not all the time. When
Speaker 2: you're reading for yourself, you're ready to see your own truth.
Speaker 3: It's true, it's true. So that's why you keep going.
Speaker 3: You sit with it longer, you pull another card, You
Speaker 3: meditate on it, you go for a walk, you have lunch,
Speaker 3: you listen to to Nick and Judith on the radio,
Speaker 3: You give you kinds of things, and then you go
Speaker 3: back to your cards and you go hmm, and then
Speaker 3: you go, aha, Now I get it. Now, I see
Speaker 3: it's a process that you know. I think that's part
Speaker 3: of it. It's not insta right, instant knowledge, insta wisdom.
Speaker 3: It takes longer.
Speaker 1: Yes, I was. I was a victim of that too
Speaker 1: at the beginning, so I could definitely say yes for me,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So yep, with other stuff obviously,
Speaker 1: you know plenty of things in life too. I like that.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Judia. Do you want to ask her anything
Speaker 1: else before we continue?
Speaker 2: No, I have a question, but I'm waiting for till
Speaker 2: we hit the astrology part.
Speaker 3: I'm excited.
Speaker 1: What's the astrology?
Speaker 2: Well, actually it's about a previous book you wrote, A
Speaker 2: sad little.
Speaker 1: I did want to even have. Yeah, I didn't even
Speaker 1: want to talk on that too, So go for it.
Speaker 2: On that book. Saturn. Now, when people deal with astrology,
Speaker 2: Saturn is one of the most feared well yes, most
Speaker 2: feared planet, and your book tries to clear up the
Speaker 2: misunderstanding of the planet Saturn. Can you expand on that
Speaker 2: how people misundertake this as a hardship, as a harsh.
Speaker 3: But it is it actually is. It's no lie, it
Speaker 3: is It is hard. Saturn is hard, Saturn is difficult.
Speaker 3: I think maybe maybe that book did I maybe I
Speaker 3: made it sound did I make did I disnify Saturn?
Speaker 3: I don't know, because I hate Saturn. I mean I
Speaker 3: wrote it about Saturn. I have three planets in cancer,
Speaker 3: and Saturn is associated with Capricorn, which is my opposite
Speaker 3: sign on the wheel. I fucking hate Saturn. I don't
Speaker 3: like I don't want hardship. I don't want pain and
Speaker 3: suffering ill, I don't want that shot. I don't like Saturn.
Speaker 3: But Saturn is also commitment. Saturn is time. Saturn is structure.
Speaker 3: Saturn is discipline. We need bones. Saturn rules the bones.
Speaker 3: If you didn't have bones, you'd be what you'd be
Speaker 3: on the ground. Yeah, bo, you know it's funny. That
Speaker 3: was how I met shout out to Teresa read. That
Speaker 3: was how I met Teresa when that when Yeah, when
Speaker 3: the Saturn book came out, I think she reached out
Speaker 3: to me. I don't know. I don't think she does
Speaker 3: her podcast anymore, but she I was a guest on
Speaker 3: her show, and she wrote to me saying, I love Saturn.
Speaker 3: I hear you have a Saturn book. I'm thinking, Teresa,
Speaker 3: you can't love Saturn. I'm so happy you wrote me,
Speaker 3: But what is this? What is this craziness that you
Speaker 3: love Saturn so so she loves Saturn. I hate Saturn.
Speaker 3: Saturn is necessary now I'm wondering where if you know
Speaker 3: where your saturn is, Judith.
Speaker 2: Actually I do not know.
Speaker 3: Oh my god. We have to fix this. Can we
Speaker 3: rectify this problem right now?
Speaker 1: I could even tell you you'd have a better chance
Speaker 1: by looking at my birth jod. I forgot where it was.
Speaker 1: I think my twelfth house.
Speaker 3: You have to know. Oh yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 3: I think it is in your twelve. You have to
Speaker 3: know when your saturn is because you have to know
Speaker 3: when your saturn is or was or good aspects, hard aspects.
Speaker 2: I'm going to have to because I do have a
Speaker 2: birth dry.
Speaker 1: Oh that's right. Teresa Reied. Did do we had saturn
Speaker 1: returns right or something like that?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Her book is, Yeah, I think many astrological returns.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's right. She focused on that one. That's right.
Speaker 1: She focused on that one on the show, I think
Speaker 1: when she came on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and my book has a section on that too,
Speaker 3: has the three like, there's a saturn return when you're
Speaker 3: in your late twenties, and then there's one in your
Speaker 3: late fifties if you live long enough, and then if
Speaker 3: you live even longer than twenty eight years after that,
Speaker 3: I guess was up late eighties something like that.
Speaker 1: I thought I went through mine just now ten years off.
Speaker 3: Well, you could be having another Saturn transit which is
Speaker 3: stressing you because you know, sometimes you know, if you
Speaker 3: feel very blocked frustrated, it could be Saturn. Not one
Speaker 3: hundred percent for sure, but it could be.
Speaker 2: Would you say Saturn? She says, you haven't learned your
Speaker 2: lesson less your lesson yet, sit here and learn your
Speaker 2: lesson before we move on.
Speaker 3: That sounds like Saturn.
Speaker 1: Yeah, much.
Speaker 3: Saturn gives us all these responsibilities which we probably don't want,
Speaker 3: but we have to have. It's maturity, it matures us.
Speaker 3: My astrology used to say about transits, difficult transit, Are
Speaker 3: you gonna go kicking and screaming or right like? Or
Speaker 3: are you gonna I don't remember what he said after that,
Speaker 3: but some version of surrender or acceptance of these new responsibilities,
Speaker 3: at least in terms of Saturn, that makes sense. Aren't
Speaker 3: you glad you asked?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: I know. I think you talk about projection and uh.
Speaker 1: One of the most interesting ways to frame Tower or
Speaker 1: two is projection. Are we projecting onto the cards or
Speaker 1: do you think that cards pulling kind of projections out
Speaker 1: of us?
Speaker 3: Hmmm, interesting.
Speaker 1: Or could that even be like like almost a symbiotic relationship,
Speaker 1: you know, don't I.
Speaker 3: Don't think it's either or I think I mean, honestly,
Speaker 3: I think there's so much that goes on when we
Speaker 3: read cards. It's all of it. Because you know, in
Speaker 3: this book I'm talking about one way to read the cards.
Speaker 3: There's so many ways to read them. And I think
Speaker 3: as we've been talking here, I might be saying, oh,
Speaker 3: try this way, not necessarily because it's better, but just
Speaker 3: it's different. But I think we're we can do it
Speaker 3: all at once. Like we bring our entire selves to
Speaker 3: the deck, we bring our entire selves to the reading.
Speaker 3: So any any meaning you read in a book has
Speaker 3: that you liked, has probably stuck with you and then
Speaker 3: your own psychology. Any projections right, because I think what
Speaker 3: you mean is sort of this isn't what the car
Speaker 3: is really saying, is what I want it to say.
Speaker 3: I think that's what you mean by a projection there.
Speaker 3: I think it's all. I think it's all in the mix.
Speaker 3: But you know what you know how you know whether
Speaker 3: your Tarrant readings are so to speak right or not
Speaker 3: is by doing prediction divination for other people for yourself
Speaker 3: with a short timeline, and then like if you have
Speaker 3: clients or friends, they'll come back to and they'll say, oh,
Speaker 3: you were right. So that's how you know whether you're
Speaker 3: projecting or fantasizing, or tuning into the stream of the
Speaker 3: unconscious or intuition, or you know, however you want to
Speaker 3: phrase it. I think it's hard to parse ultimately where
Speaker 3: the lines are.
Speaker 2: Which actually makes me as how do you avoid projecting
Speaker 2: to someone else's reading, because sometimes because I used to
Speaker 2: read back in the day, I don't read anymore. But
Speaker 2: usually if like say, you're trying to explain to someone
Speaker 2: of reading something, you're trying to portray a situation for
Speaker 2: them and it's unfamiliar to you. But then as you're reading,
Speaker 2: you'll see visually something that pertains to you and it
Speaker 2: makes it easier for you to explain it to them.
Speaker 3: That's okay. I think that's fine if that it's bound
Speaker 3: to happen because how many how many experiences are unique, Like,
Speaker 3: of course you're going to relate it to your own
Speaker 3: life or it could happen.
Speaker 2: But how do you avoid that experience being something that
Speaker 2: you need to answer for yourself instead of interpreting it
Speaker 2: for the reader.
Speaker 3: If that makes sense, practice practice, Just keep reading for people.
Speaker 3: I think that's that might be the only answer. You
Speaker 3: just keep reading for other people and for yourself, and
Speaker 3: you get better and better and better, and then your
Speaker 3: stuff will move to the side. Yeah. I think I
Speaker 3: know what you're saying, Like your own stuff could start
Speaker 3: creeping into the reading, into a reading too much. So
Speaker 3: practice practice and getting feedback from your client or your friend,
Speaker 3: whoever you're reading for. I mean, what you can't do
Speaker 3: is give up. You can't put the deck down. I mean,
Speaker 3: if it's something you want to do. But if you're like, oh,
Speaker 3: I'm so bad at this, I keep bringing all my
Speaker 3: shit into my friends reading, I suck. Like that's not
Speaker 3: going to help you. So you continue. Oh and you
Speaker 3: know what you also do? You buy even more decks
Speaker 3: so that you have many, many, many Tarot decks.
Speaker 1: I could see that working, actually, especially if you're using
Speaker 1: a deck that was used on you once.
Speaker 3: Freshing up your deck every once in a while.
Speaker 1: You use a different deck. It might literally, I at
Speaker 1: least it sounds even in your brain, might just associate
Speaker 1: it differently because it's not the same image anymore. That's
Speaker 1: actually a really good idea.
Speaker 3: And I tell people too, I'm going to teach them
Speaker 3: to read what their eyes closed, like, the imagery is
Speaker 3: the least of it. Like you look at that imagery
Speaker 3: for a second, just like a split second, and then
Speaker 3: look away. Don't don't be sitting there like, Okay, that's salamander.
Speaker 3: That's salamander. Is it means this? It means that.
Speaker 1: I like that.
Speaker 2: About that?
Speaker 1: That's very Uh wasn't it the star Ruby you're supposed
Speaker 1: to do with your eyes closed and visualize the ritual?
Speaker 2: Actually all of them you're supposed.
Speaker 1: To at some point you suggested, No, I like that,
Speaker 1: that's a pretty good idea. What else was I? And
Speaker 1: it was something else? I wanted to ask, Huh, what
Speaker 1: do you think?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 1: What is lost when Taro is stripped of divination completely
Speaker 1: and turned into only therapy? Do you think do you
Speaker 1: think that anything happens with that?
Speaker 3: What is lost? No? I think it's just a different like,
Speaker 3: it's just a different aim or different goal for that
Speaker 3: particular session. So so let's say let's say you're gonna
Speaker 3: let's say you want to do three different readings yourself
Speaker 3: in a day. Let's say you have a lot of
Speaker 3: Virgo in your chart and you're planning everything out. You could, uh,
Speaker 3: you could do Okay, now I'm doing my divination session
Speaker 3: and now I'm doing more Terror of the unconscious style,
Speaker 3: and now I'm going to do a mix. Yeah you can,
Speaker 3: you can. You can do it all. You can have
Speaker 3: it all, even even in the same reading. You just
Speaker 3: have to play with it and see.
Speaker 1: That is true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but yeah, it is. It is not a predictive style,
Speaker 3: that's true. But you know what, if information wants to
Speaker 3: come to you, it's going to come to you. You
Speaker 3: know what I'm saying. Like you might be sitting there thinking,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go within, I'm gonna do self reflection, self analysis.
Speaker 3: I want to just discover a little more about a
Speaker 3: relationship today, Like I just I just want to understand
Speaker 3: myself something like that. But that doesn't mean that you're
Speaker 3: not going to see your entire life unfolding before your eyes.
Speaker 3: See that's how it works. Actually, Like I didn't. I
Speaker 3: never intended to be a psychic astrologer or a psychic
Speaker 3: terror reader. It just happened because I did it all
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 2: The way you laid it out, the different forms and
Speaker 2: I'm going to go back to your book, The Terror
Speaker 2: and the Conscious. When you start playing around like this,
Speaker 2: do you think it gives you a glimpse on how
Speaker 2: your unconscious mind organized? I mean, we know how our conscience.
Speaker 3: Definitely, Yeah, it'll because you'll you'll see where you go,
Speaker 3: You'll see patterns if you're paying attention, especially if you
Speaker 3: if you do keep a journal, if you write stuff down. Yes,
Speaker 3: it's it's a lot like meditation in that way, you
Speaker 3: will get to see your mind.
Speaker 2: Which would you say that helps sink your unconscious and
Speaker 2: your conscious mind together, like say, if you if you
Speaker 2: do do magic, if you do do spells, it'll help
Speaker 2: you unify better, to better function through those rituals. And uh,
Speaker 2: I don't want to say experiments, but methods of being
Speaker 2: more effective in yours for making.
Speaker 3: You know it might that's an interesting question. I gotta
Speaker 3: think about that. I guess it depends. I'm thinking how
Speaker 3: much value someone would put on sinking those It is
Speaker 3: a really interesting question because I think of it in
Speaker 3: terms of the more what's happening behind the scenes is
Speaker 3: less behind the scenes and more clear to us. I
Speaker 3: think that's helpful for our lives overall. Seeing our patterns
Speaker 3: the way we get in our own way, So why
Speaker 3: wouldn't it be helpful for magic too? I can see that.
Speaker 3: And also we never get to the bottom of it,
Speaker 3: you know, we never really know everything. A dream means
Speaker 3: we never fully know everything. A tarot reading means there's
Speaker 3: always mystery, you know, like we never it's never finished,
Speaker 3: so there's always mystery. Meaning I don't think anything is ruined,
Speaker 3: you know, like we never understand ourselves absolutely. Because I
Speaker 3: was just I was thinking, okay, would it be too
Speaker 3: much truth for magic? Would magic doing our magic? Would
Speaker 3: it lose some of its luster if we saw too
Speaker 3: much or knew too much? But I don't think so,
Speaker 3: because we never know it all. I think it would
Speaker 3: the mystery and the magic of magic would still be preserved.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 2: Long story short, yes, thank you for that.
Speaker 3: It's a long, roundabout answer. I was my virgo moon
Speaker 3: mind was thinking it through to an absurd point. I think.
Speaker 2: No, no, it wasn't an unserved point. It actually was.
Speaker 2: It's actually it clarified.
Speaker 3: Oh good.
Speaker 1: One thing I did want to ask about, like you know,
Speaker 1: your book, One thing I kind of noticed just from
Speaker 1: you know, looking at it and going on a few
Speaker 1: cards myself that I'm just you know, a fan of
Speaker 1: Like you even mentioned something about like in the dark,
Speaker 1: and I think like that was even like a you know,
Speaker 1: reading the cards in the dark, that might even be
Speaker 1: like he's like your high Priest's card. I think you
Speaker 1: might suggest that one of your cards. I think you
Speaker 1: even mentioned that in the book. So you take me
Speaker 1: a while to get to what I'm getting at. But like,
Speaker 1: to me, I find your book interesting because it seems
Speaker 1: like with your cards, the way you do it well.
Speaker 1: First off, I do I do want to suggest to
Speaker 1: people that I could be wrong, but from looking at
Speaker 1: the way she does this book, I think if you
Speaker 1: go through it, you're actually going to have an experience kind.
Speaker 3: Of hmmm, what kind of experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, something probably new, you know, they're just going to
Speaker 1: have an experience. To me, it looks like something that
Speaker 1: it would be almost like kind of like taking on
Speaker 1: a different practice and just seeing where it gets you
Speaker 1: or what you get out of it.
Speaker 3: I think you're right. I like that. I think that's true.
Speaker 1: And you know, just certain things I noticed how you
Speaker 1: would sometimes even like personally use like the cards like
Speaker 1: I think maybe you're just trying to help people get
Speaker 1: an idea like almost like you mentioned one. This one
Speaker 1: reminds me of the registrar that was funny at school.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So how like you're even attributing to it
Speaker 1: to like something like even in your own life. But
Speaker 1: then I even noticed some of them. You know, you
Speaker 1: have like a then you also have like suggested kind
Speaker 1: of like I guess practices. How would you kind of
Speaker 1: like give an overall I guess idea of like with
Speaker 1: the cards, like what you were going through the book?
Speaker 1: Like what do you It's really hard for me to
Speaker 1: ask this question the way I'm thinking, Sorry, good time.
Speaker 1: How would you could you give the people maybe an
Speaker 1: idea of like the structure, like the different ways that
Speaker 1: you do go into the cards to try to, you know,
Speaker 1: show people how to look at it.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you're right, I do. I do use
Speaker 3: stories from my own life to bring the cards.
Speaker 1: What I think that's great.
Speaker 3: I do use stories for my own left to bring
Speaker 3: the thank you to bring the cards down to earth.
Speaker 3: Even the major arcana that the major arcana, they're not
Speaker 3: always life changing crossroads, they're not always archetypes. In some
Speaker 3: systems they are sometimes the world card is because you're
Speaker 3: going to Walmart. It's not always a culmination with a
Speaker 3: capital C, right, Sometimes you're just running an errand the
Speaker 3: world card. But I do mean each all of the
Speaker 3: majors has their own little chapter. I bring in stories
Speaker 3: from my life, whether as a tarot teacher a psychoanalysis student.
Speaker 3: I bring stories from Freud's life, from the history of psychoanalysis,
Speaker 3: from other psychoanalytic ideas which I applied to the tarot.
Speaker 3: So there are these short chapters and then I give
Speaker 3: meanings for upright, upright interpretations, reversed little key phrases, and
Speaker 3: then a tarot spread. So that's how most of the
Speaker 3: card chapters are structured. So I do that with the
Speaker 3: majors and the miners, but then with the miners I
Speaker 3: actually group the aces and the court together to strip
Speaker 3: them down to their element, which is a little unusual.
Speaker 3: I'm not the only one who works that way, but
Speaker 3: it's more unusual. I think that's what you were asking, like,
Speaker 3: how is it structured card by card? So yeah, so
Speaker 3: people are going to read a little story which hopefully
Speaker 3: they like find it interesting, and then I think you're
Speaker 3: right about it being an experience. You know, if people
Speaker 3: do actually read the book, they're gonna see, Oh, look
Speaker 3: at these keywords for her cards. They're more lyrical, or
Speaker 3: they're more strange, or they might notice that upright and
Speaker 3: reverse sometimes run together because meanings for cards exist on
Speaker 3: a continuum. That's another main point, Like there's the emperor,
Speaker 3: isn't or I'll use the empress example. She's not always
Speaker 3: creativity in a reading. She's not always fertility. She's not
Speaker 3: always good, right Like if we see the Empress, we think, oh,
Speaker 3: this is a good woman. Not always depends on the context.
Speaker 3: That's where your intuition, you know, That's what's reading the cards,
Speaker 3: is your intuition and your ability to free associate. But
Speaker 3: I don't know if I answered the question. I think
Speaker 3: that is why you're asking, like how is it structured?
Speaker 1: No, you did one thing I do want to add too,
Speaker 1: that I think is really cool about it. This is
Speaker 1: I don't know the way my brain works and how
Speaker 1: I kind of see it sort you know, sometimes you
Speaker 1: can get tarot books that are very much like almost structured,
Speaker 1: like a book on herbs or gems, and if you
Speaker 1: if you think about it, those books are almost very just.
Speaker 1: It's always written the same exact way, like you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying that structures. I know exactly what you're saying,
Speaker 1: and yours is not like that at all. I do
Speaker 1: see that there is some sort of structure in there,
Speaker 1: but it's not like copy paste the same way or
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, you go differently. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: like that. I thought that was Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3: I'm curious what how what what you found different? Because
Speaker 3: I did follow that same like, here's a description, but
Speaker 3: the description is a story. It's a narrative, not not
Speaker 3: an analysis of the imagery.
Speaker 1: That's That's what I think. It was realizing the way
Speaker 1: how you That's why I thought it was really impressive
Speaker 1: how you incorporated like neither your life or like you're saying,
Speaker 1: like you know, you know, real situations that aren't I
Speaker 1: would even say that aren't fantastical or like even in
Speaker 1: the woo woo. It's like almost almost anybody, anybody who's
Speaker 1: you know, gone through life exactly could take this and
Speaker 1: somehow adapt it to something probably they've experienced. I think
Speaker 1: I think that's.
Speaker 3: Okay because if it brings the cards down to earth,
Speaker 3: I think you said that really well, so I guess
Speaker 3: I'm wondering. So it makes it relatable, as the kids
Speaker 3: would say today, it makes the cards.
Speaker 1: Is that?
Speaker 3: Is that what you're getting at for sure?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was again with the salamanders. I wasn't going
Speaker 3: to sit there and talk about the wands. I mean,
Speaker 3: I do bring up imagery some of the time, but
Speaker 3: it's it's more to make a point. It's not the salamander.
Speaker 3: I can't even remember what the salamander symbolizes. I'm sorry
Speaker 3: I don't recall, but you know what a fire. Yeah,
Speaker 3: those all the books with them, and there's there's nothing
Speaker 3: wrong with those books. This is just an alternate view,
Speaker 3: there's absolutely I mean, that's our history as Tarot lovers
Speaker 3: are all those books. So I'm not I'm not anti
Speaker 3: any of it. I love Arthur Waite, I love I
Speaker 3: love the greats. I'm a I have, I have Tarot books,
Speaker 3: I read them. I'm a I'm a fan. I love
Speaker 3: Eden Gray, Rachel Pollock, Mary Kay Greer. I mean, these
Speaker 3: are legends in our in our lives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, even yeah, I think you can always pull something
Speaker 1: positive out of all those people. Anyway, they're too attribute,
Speaker 1: you know, for sure?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned a lot of beginners. Would you consider
Speaker 2: your book and more for the advanced terror reader.
Speaker 3: I think it's for anyone. I think it's I think
Speaker 3: it's for anyone who's curious interested. I think any anyone
Speaker 3: who wants to pick up a deck and play with
Speaker 3: a deck, it's for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think that's kind of
Speaker 1: how I got out of it. I thought that. I
Speaker 1: just think that's cool, Like I really do feel like
Speaker 1: you'll actually have an experience. I like that. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: that for me, that almost makes it magical in itself.
Speaker 1: You know, so.
Speaker 2: Not every book you read on tart could get a
Speaker 2: guarantee and experience. That's plus.
Speaker 3: I love it. That's you're giving me great promotion.
Speaker 1: No, well, it's a very different book, so I do
Speaker 1: expect I do appreciate it. Yeah, it's not the same
Speaker 1: run of the mill terror book. Yeah, Judith, did you
Speaker 1: have anything else that you wanted to ask? No, not
Speaker 1: right now, would you want to? I did ask you before.
Speaker 1: You don't have to go too far into it, but
Speaker 1: I wanted to see if maybe you would mind talking
Speaker 1: about like maybe the Empress card and how you attributed
Speaker 1: that in your book and stuff or how you do it? Yeah, well, you.
Speaker 3: Know, I was I was saying before. She's not she's
Speaker 3: not always, she's not necessarily the things that we're taught
Speaker 3: about her. But she might be all of those things
Speaker 3: in a in a particular reading, right, I mean, she
Speaker 3: might be fertility, she might be motherhood, she might be abundance,
Speaker 3: creativity like for me in a in a in an
Speaker 3: average reading, a garden variety reading. I like her. I
Speaker 3: like when she shows up. Oh. I think I mentioned
Speaker 3: in the book that my my favorite, my personal Taroor
Speaker 3: reader reads her as self care, like she'll get whenever
Speaker 3: my reader gets the Empress for me reversed, like she
Speaker 3: knows there's something wrong, like I need more sleep, and
Speaker 3: that that is a more divinatory kind of kind of
Speaker 3: way to view it. But prosperity could come through with
Speaker 3: the Empress and Prince Empress that you need to go outside,
Speaker 3: be in nature.
Speaker 1: Oh, I can see that.
Speaker 2: Would you also consider her coming that you are a
Speaker 2: creator a new idea or a new epiphany?
Speaker 3: Hmmm, that's interesting. Yeah, but you know the context is
Speaker 3: in charge. So am I reading for myself? Am I
Speaker 3: reading for someone else? What questions am I asking? Is
Speaker 3: it a one card. Maybe I'm not asking any question.
Speaker 3: What am I asking? How many cards are there? Am
Speaker 3: I doing a pre arranged spread? Am I making it
Speaker 3: up on the fly? What are the surrounding cards? That's
Speaker 3: also a key to the book is that's what the
Speaker 3: Empress is about. Is the context is everything? I think,
Speaker 3: I say this somewhere like they're There are no like
Speaker 3: finite absolute meanings of the cards for all time. It's impossible.
Speaker 3: It's all variations on a theme, always, always, always, always,
Speaker 3: even though the books say she's this, she's that, but
Speaker 3: then we reverse her and she's all these other things. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's trippy, right, there's no limit, there's it's infinite. The
Speaker 3: terror is actually an infinite system. It's not fixed.
Speaker 1: I agree with that. Do you do you think being
Speaker 1: in Takobala or looking at him kabalistically helps you view
Speaker 1: it that way as well? Like I could see the
Speaker 1: polarity maybe, or the difference is how it may not
Speaker 1: always be aful No.
Speaker 3: I cannot even speak to that. I wouldn't. I don't
Speaker 3: you know what. I don't work that much with the correspondences.
Speaker 3: I don't even like astrological correspondences for the cards, even
Speaker 3: though I know there's a long tradition of that. For me,
Speaker 3: it makes it muddy and it gets in my way.
Speaker 3: I don't want more lists, so I don't think of
Speaker 3: it cabalistically or astrologically, and I usually fight with astrological attributions.
Speaker 2: Do you think that people who try to memorize this
Speaker 2: those attributes it causes them to falter in the reading?
Speaker 3: Mmm? I think it might get them somewhere. They might,
Speaker 3: you know what it's it's gonna get them somewhere, just
Speaker 3: like you, whether it's kabalistic, astrological or or the time
Speaker 3: honored tarot meanings. It'll get you to a certain point.
Speaker 3: But if you're not willing to dive off the diving
Speaker 3: board into the deep end. But it's a choice, you know,
Speaker 3: not everyone needs to do that, like what I'm suggesting,
Speaker 3: Maybe not everybody should or they're not interesting in it.
Speaker 3: But I don't think it's an empty experience. But there
Speaker 3: you reach, there's only so far you can go. I mean,
Speaker 3: how much farther would you have to go for your
Speaker 3: intuition to kick in or your free associations, Like maybe
Speaker 3: you know people that they just stop right they're like, Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm going to read my from my list of correspondences,
Speaker 3: and I'm going to read from this terror book. And
Speaker 3: that's as far as I'm going to go. Okay, that's
Speaker 3: as far as you want to go. Just don't do
Speaker 3: a reading for me with that.
Speaker 1: I like that. It's very interesting. Yeah, I think psychologically
Speaker 1: there's just so much with terror in general too.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to explain what I was just.
Speaker 3: Going to say.
Speaker 1: What would you like? This was probably the last question,
Speaker 1: unless you if you have anything, what's the one thing
Speaker 1: you hope people take from this book?
Speaker 3: Hmm, that's a good question.
Speaker 1: If there's multiple answers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I hope they're I hope they're not afraid
Speaker 3: to play with the cards, that it's something fun, playful,
Speaker 3: something they can play with it. It doesn't have to
Speaker 3: be predicting the future. That it can be light and fun,
Speaker 3: even though, of course, I mean the book is serious.
Speaker 3: I talk about it it being serious fun. So to
Speaker 3: breathe some new life into their tarot practice wherever they are,
Speaker 3: and to give it a try. That's what I ask
Speaker 3: in the book. I say, just give it a try.
Speaker 3: Try it this way. Put down all the books, put
Speaker 3: down all the meanings. Oh and for for folks to
Speaker 3: create their own tarot spreads, their own tarot spreads, their
Speaker 3: own keywords, write their own books. Let it be a
Speaker 3: create pursuit rather than a flat You know, this card
Speaker 3: means this. This card means that, let it all go.
Speaker 1: I like that. I like both answers. Those are great. Oh, Judith,
Speaker 1: there's anything you wanted to say.
Speaker 2: I just actually wanted to say that. You actually serve
Speaker 2: two purposes with this book, actually three. But first is
Speaker 2: you're welcoming any new people who are curious about terror
Speaker 2: reading basic readers, and these three are very difficult to
Speaker 2: put all into one book, so I have to say
Speaker 2: that's an accomplishment. The second is get off the paved
Speaker 2: road and play yourself, go into the woods and find
Speaker 2: your own way.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I like that.
Speaker 2: And the third one is working on the mental, the
Speaker 2: science of the mental, working through the cards.
Speaker 3: Hmm, what do.
Speaker 2: You mean You add the Freudian concepts in there? So
Speaker 2: you could use it as a beginner. You could use
Speaker 2: it to grow as a terror reader strictly, or you
Speaker 2: could use it to grow mentally and spiritually at the
Speaker 2: same time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I see what you mean. I agree with you,
Speaker 3: and I love what you say about getting off the
Speaker 3: paved road. That's right. Even though this book has civilization
Speaker 3: in it, right, it has freud in it. It's definitely
Speaker 3: go to the go to the woods with your freud
Speaker 3: and your deck, get off the paved road. Yes, thank you,
Speaker 3: that's lovely. I think you're right. She synthesized it, she
Speaker 3: put it all together. She's the temperance card. That's what
Speaker 3: the temper see this. See, this is the thing. If
Speaker 3: you're obsessed with tarrow like I am, and probably you
Speaker 3: know some people maybe you are this way. You think
Speaker 3: in Tarot, like there's always just like we think in
Speaker 3: the planets. We like, Oh, Judith is the temperance card.
Speaker 3: She's synthesizing.
Speaker 1: I like that, think tar I've done that. Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: done that before. That's funny. I'm like watching it away
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to like put some Tarot structure. It's
Speaker 1: pretty funny. Thank you so much for coming on. This
Speaker 1: is really an amazing talk. I really had a great time.
Speaker 3: Thank you too.
Speaker 1: So this was just it was different than what I
Speaker 1: was used to recently.
Speaker 3: Now, but you got to tell me how now.
Speaker 1: Oh, only because like I said, a lot of them
Speaker 1: I didn't realize at first of just a lot of
Speaker 1: the Tower readers of people that I had on with
Speaker 1: books that were all.
Speaker 3: Verio to young huh.
Speaker 1: So at least I got like a.
Speaker 3: He's only he's only in my book as Freud's ex friend,
Speaker 3: as a Frene me.
Speaker 1: That's cool. Yeah, before we wrap it up, Judith, you
Speaker 1: want to let everybody know where they can find all
Speaker 1: your stuff, please?
Speaker 2: Oh yes, and once again, thank you for having me, Alisa.
Speaker 2: This was a wonderful conversation. I have to say thank you,
Speaker 2: thank you and everyone else. You can find me on
Speaker 2: x spreaker and YouTube as the Loon.
Speaker 1: All right, thank you so much for coming on. And Alisa,
Speaker 1: please let everybody know where they can find you again
Speaker 1: and anything you'd like to promote.
Speaker 3: Okay, they can find you. Know what, I'm going to
Speaker 3: give a different Instagram because the one I gave you
Speaker 3: originally it doesn't grow at all. It's been at the
Speaker 3: same place forever. So they people can find me at
Speaker 3: Psychoanalysis bookshelf on Instagram. They can, and my website is
Speaker 3: actually there, it's in the bio, but they can find
Speaker 3: me at Alisa Einhorn dot com. And the book is
Speaker 3: Taro of the Conscious, which they can pre order from
Speaker 3: anywhere anywhere, you know where, you know where people order books.
Speaker 1: Yes, awesome.
Speaker 3: Make make my publisher happy.
Speaker 1: That'll ry for sure. Thank you very much for coming on.
Speaker 1: I really thought that was an awesome chat. And again
Speaker 1: it's a it's a very interesting and different type of book,
Speaker 1: I think, so I was happy to be happy to
Speaker 1: have you on for the and Judith again, thank you
Speaker 1: for joining us. And that is the end of another
Speaker 1: Recult Rejects and until the next one, everybody be well later.