1 00:00:04,919 --> 00:00:32,719 Speaker 1: Saw what up? 2 00:00:32,719 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 2: Everybody, Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the 3 00:00:36,039 --> 00:00:39,960 podcast where you get to send me Paul Abernathy anything 4 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,000 you want about the National Electrical Code. I will break 5 00:00:42,039 --> 00:00:44,640 it down and if I answer in an email, you 6 00:00:44,759 --> 00:00:48,320 may get selected to be used on an upcoming podcast, 7 00:00:48,679 --> 00:00:50,520 much like today's podcast. 8 00:00:51,079 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 3: So I'm gonna thank everybody for joining me. 9 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: Hopefully you've all been joining me over on Coffee Hour 10 00:00:56,079 --> 00:00:59,520 every morning at eight am. You can watch for free 11 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,520 over on fast tracks Tube. 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Just go to our website and 33 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,280 which is Fasttracksystem dot com. 34 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:15,599 Speaker 3: It'll be down in the description. 35 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 2: Just go over there and go to the navigation and 36 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,039 you'll see mobile app. 37 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 3: Just click on the link. 38 00:02:20,879 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 2: If you're on your mobile phone, it'll ask you yes, 39 00:02:23,039 --> 00:02:24,159 do you want to add it to your phone? 40 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,199 Speaker 3: Say? Yes. All it's doing is put in a link. 41 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:27,080 That's it a. 42 00:02:27,039 --> 00:02:29,159 Speaker 2: Little icon in a link so you can click it. 43 00:02:29,159 --> 00:02:32,080 It is web based so we can update it without 44 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,479 having to make you download something, invade your privacy, all 45 00:02:35,479 --> 00:02:37,199 this kind of other garbage that you get with the 46 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,400 app store. I know it's easy, but it's much easier. 47 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,199 Rather than go to the app store, just go to 48 00:02:42,199 --> 00:02:45,599 our website. And get it makes sense, right, And we 49 00:02:45,599 --> 00:02:47,199 don't want just anybody downloaded. 50 00:02:47,319 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 3: We only want electricians that are going to use it. 51 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: So that's why when you put something on an app store, 52 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,319 Apple Store or whatever, then anybody can download it, not 53 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,719 you know, we're not about the money for that. We're 54 00:02:56,719 --> 00:02:58,879 not charging for it, so we don't care that there's 55 00:02:59,039 --> 00:03:01,479 thirty thousand people using an app. It don't mean nothing 56 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,520 to us. We want electricians to use it. We want 57 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,639 people that are in the electrical business to use it. 58 00:03:06,719 --> 00:03:09,479 So better to get it from us directly at our 59 00:03:09,479 --> 00:03:13,520 website than it is to go searching through that garbage anyway. 60 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 3: None of that. 61 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,439 Speaker 2: All right, today's episode, we're gonna be answering a question 62 00:03:17,719 --> 00:03:20,039 that was submitted to the Let's ask Paul. That's a 63 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:25,759 great question. I've been getting questioned this question for decades. Okay, 64 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,319 I've been getting it, not that I serve on code 65 00:03:28,319 --> 00:03:31,560 Making Panel five, but it's just a kind of question 66 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,479 that we typically get all the time and they're like, look, 67 00:03:36,439 --> 00:03:38,400 I need you, I need some clarity for this. 68 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 3: So that's what we're gonna do today. We're gonna bring 69 00:03:40,879 --> 00:03:41,280 some clarity. 70 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 2: So what we're talking about is very specific and we're 71 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,919 gonna be looking and talking about two sixty four, but 72 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,960 we're gonna be looking at D one and D one 73 00:03:52,159 --> 00:03:56,759 is that common grounding electrode conductor and taps. So that 74 00:03:56,879 --> 00:03:59,039 is where you may have You might have a CT. 75 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,439 You come out of the sea into a wireway, you 76 00:04:01,479 --> 00:04:03,319 come out of the wireway, you drop down into two 77 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:08,319 separate service panels right beside each other. And now you're like, Okay, 78 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,400 I know that I have to run from the services 79 00:04:11,439 --> 00:04:14,280 I have to run a connection to, and I have 80 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,680 multiple options, but I have to go from the grounded conductor. 81 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,040 I have to connect to the grounding electrode. Now, whatever 82 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:24,759 your grounding electrode may be, whether it's a uphur, whatever 83 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,079 it may be in ground steel, whether you know whether 84 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:33,600 it may be a chemical type of electrode, rods plates, 85 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,240 whatever your electrode, you fur, whatever it may be, you 86 00:04:37,319 --> 00:04:39,439 have to get that connection and make make that connection. 87 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 3: Okay. And so. 88 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: There's this one aspect that seems to always get submitted 89 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,160 to me that seems to be quite confusing for people. 90 00:04:50,199 --> 00:04:52,519 So we're going to clear it up today, and that is, Hey, Paul, 91 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:53,959 what is And let me let me read you the 92 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,879 question kind of the paraphrase out the question It asks 93 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,319 this question. It says, Paul, thanks for your podcast. I 94 00:05:01,399 --> 00:05:04,279 love listening to it, and I'm loving Coffee Hour. 95 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,639 Speaker 3: In the mornings. Whoops, there you go. Let me give 96 00:05:06,639 --> 00:05:07,160 a shout out. 97 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: He's watching our Coffee Hour and he's listening to our podcasts. 98 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,120 Sweet all right, he says, I understand that in the 99 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,160 twenty twenty three edition of The National, and he also 100 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,240 gave code reference to the what cycle beautiful dude, you're 101 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,480 on it? He said in the twenty twenty three and 102 00:05:24,639 --> 00:05:27,120 see it says that common grounding electroconductor is to be 103 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,040 sized based from the sum of the ungrounded conductors for 104 00:05:31,439 --> 00:05:35,120 one phase or set of the supplied conductors to the 105 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:36,360 disconnecting service. 106 00:05:36,399 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 3: Disconnecting means. 107 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 2: However, it does not stipulate anywhere in there of the 108 00:05:42,199 --> 00:05:45,519 type of electrode that's in question, whether it's a. 109 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,439 Speaker 3: Upher or ground rods. 110 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:54,079 Speaker 2: My question is, does two fifty sixty six A apply and 111 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,279 I not have to size my grounding electrode conductor any 112 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:58,399 larger than A six? 113 00:05:58,600 --> 00:05:59,959 Speaker 3: If I have ground rods? 114 00:06:01,519 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 2: Do I have to size the grinding electroconductor based on 115 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:05,839 the summation? 116 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 3: I love how it uses these big words that I 117 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:09,360 like to use. 118 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 2: Summation of the on grounded conductors at the CT or 119 00:06:14,319 --> 00:06:17,360 at the supply side of the service. Thanks in advance. 120 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,480 I hope this is clear. I look forward to hearing 121 00:06:20,519 --> 00:06:24,720 your answer on the next podcast. Okay, thank you very 122 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,839 much for that question. Very detailed, very concise. So what 123 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,959 he's asking he says, Okay, so for those out there 124 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,639 that have your codebook, if you go look at two 125 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:40,720 fifty sixty four D one now D for example, it 126 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,839 says when you have buildings structures with multiple disconnecting means 127 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:45,839 in separate enclosures. 128 00:06:45,879 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 3: Okay, so that's what we're talking about. 129 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,639 Speaker 2: So if I had to paint you this mental picture, 130 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,959 I've got a CT which is basically just you know, 131 00:06:53,199 --> 00:06:57,920 basically you have cts. Current transformers go over top of 132 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,680 the conductors so they can actually read how much power 133 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,600 you're using big CT cabinets, not service equipment. It's put 134 00:07:04,639 --> 00:07:07,199 in there by the utility, or you may install it 135 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,839 for the utility, but the conductor simply just passed through it. Okay, 136 00:07:10,959 --> 00:07:12,560 and then they're going to go into let's say a 137 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,800 wire way, it's still service conductors still on the supply 138 00:07:15,959 --> 00:07:19,120 side code allows us to bond all those metal parts 139 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,279 to the grounded conductor to fifty one two. 140 00:07:21,319 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 3: So we're bonded. Everything's good. 141 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,839 Speaker 2: But then it comes down into two separate service disconnects, okay, 142 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,399 and it drops off of that. Okay, So it comes 143 00:07:31,439 --> 00:07:33,360 down and it hits your service distinect. 144 00:07:33,399 --> 00:07:34,639 Speaker 3: So now you. 145 00:07:34,519 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: You're running your your grounding electrode system for this building. 146 00:07:40,199 --> 00:07:44,279 Now there are three different options here. One, obviously D 147 00:07:44,399 --> 00:07:46,720 one we're gonna be talking about. D two is where 148 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,720 you could run an individual grinding electro conductor from each 149 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:56,079 individual service enclosure straight to your electrode whatever it may be. 150 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,000 You can run it that's called the individual one from 151 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,920 each one it's fine. Or you could do a common 152 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,000 location that is D three, which means you can make 153 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,639 a connection over in the CT right. 154 00:08:07,319 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I know. 155 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: The hjs don't like that shit. Utilities don't like that sometimes. 156 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,120 But again that's the code says you can make that 157 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,319 connection to the grounder conductor anywhere on a supply side 158 00:08:17,399 --> 00:08:20,759 up to it, including in the service disconnect. But you 159 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,399 can do it on the supply side, so it could 160 00:08:22,399 --> 00:08:23,920 be done in a CT, could be done in a 161 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:25,879 meter h all those type of things. 162 00:08:25,879 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 3: I know they don't like it, but it could be done. 163 00:08:29,839 --> 00:08:32,639 Speaker 2: But anyway, common location would be taking your grounding electro 164 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,360 conductor out of a common location ahead of your service 165 00:08:35,399 --> 00:08:37,480 distinct like maybe out of that wireway connected to the 166 00:08:37,519 --> 00:08:40,480 grounder conductors or out of the CT or whatever. 167 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,279 Speaker 3: So you have options, okay, but we're. 168 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 2: Focusing on today is the one that does the common 169 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,159 grinding electro conductor and the taps. So well, this one 170 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,840 painting you a mental picture. You've got your CT, and 171 00:08:52,879 --> 00:08:54,720 if you're in your mind, you're like, I can't. 172 00:08:54,519 --> 00:08:55,639 Speaker 3: Picture what a CT is. 173 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: Just think of a big box that the conductors from 174 00:08:58,799 --> 00:08:59,679 utility come into. 175 00:08:59,759 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 3: They run through these things that look like. 176 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,759 Speaker 2: Doughnuts, okay, and it measures the intensity of the power 177 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,240 in order to be able to charge you money. 178 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,039 Speaker 3: It runs through those and then over to. 179 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 2: The wireway where then it splits off and you can 180 00:09:11,639 --> 00:09:14,679 actually tap onto it and do two separate service equipment. 181 00:09:14,879 --> 00:09:18,240 You get what I'm saying, Okay, that's all I want 182 00:09:18,279 --> 00:09:22,720 you to pint that mental picture now from the service equipment, 183 00:09:22,759 --> 00:09:26,759 which is two or more side by side. The disconnecting 184 00:09:26,799 --> 00:09:29,320 means for the service there's separate enclosures side by side. 185 00:09:29,919 --> 00:09:33,360 I need to get grounding electrodes. I need to have 186 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,440 ground electro conductors for this inclosure. Not I have those 187 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,159 other options, but we're going to go with the one 188 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:39,200 that does the common. 189 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,519 Speaker 3: And what's the common? Well, the common one is pretty simple. 190 00:09:43,639 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 2: You take one conductor properly sized, run it underneath of 191 00:09:49,399 --> 00:09:52,879 both of those service disconnects, and then continue it onto 192 00:09:53,039 --> 00:09:56,320 whatever your electrode may be. So your electrode may be 193 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,799 a ufert, your electrode may be a water pipe ground 194 00:09:58,799 --> 00:10:03,200 that is supplemented by some other electrode in two fifty 195 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,879 to fifty two, A two through a seven or whatnot. 196 00:10:06,159 --> 00:10:11,480 So you're basically it's one common conductor that's going underneath. 197 00:10:11,519 --> 00:10:13,840 It's not necessarily going up in any of the panels, 198 00:10:13,879 --> 00:10:16,120 which it could, but it's not. It's just running underneath. 199 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,960 Let's just say for simplicity's sake, and it goes to 200 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,360 whatever your electrode is. Whatever the electrode is, okay, And 201 00:10:22,399 --> 00:10:24,720 this is also good for exam prep folks, So if 202 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,399 you're out there thinking about exam prep and how people 203 00:10:27,399 --> 00:10:31,759 can ask you questions, this is important. Okay, what it says, 204 00:10:31,879 --> 00:10:34,440 let's read what it says. In two fifty sixty four 205 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:43,799 D one it says common grounding electrode conductor and taps. 206 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,840 It says a common grinding electrode conductor. And again that's 207 00:10:47,879 --> 00:10:50,399 the one that we run underneath the other panels and 208 00:10:50,519 --> 00:10:54,720 run it straight to the Electrodekay, that's common to both 209 00:10:54,759 --> 00:10:56,679 of the enclosures. It's going to be common to both 210 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,159 the enclosures. Both enclosures are going to connect to it 211 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,639 with a with a tap, if you will. So it's 212 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,759 common shall be size in accordance with two fifty dots 213 00:11:05,799 --> 00:11:10,039 sixty six. Now it says two fifty outs sixty six. 214 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,039 It doesn't say table two fifty douts sixty six. It 215 00:11:13,159 --> 00:11:16,600 just says in accordance with two fifty dots sixty six. 216 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,799 And the reason for that is by making a reference 217 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,200 to two fifty dots sixty six, it's also making it 218 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,960 clear that it's not just table two fifty outs sixty 219 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,679 six it's applicable here, but also the two fifty dots 220 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:34,000 sixty six, A, B, and C, which many people call exceptions. 221 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,639 They're not exceptionskay, they're allowances. 222 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,799 Speaker 3: They're right there. They're permitted to be able to usize it. 223 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: This is the example of two fifty dots sixty six 224 00:11:44,879 --> 00:11:47,440 A is where it says that it doesn't have to 225 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,799 be larger than the six copper or four aluminum to 226 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,120 a rod piper plate. Okay, if you're not familiar with that, 227 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,720 just grab your codebook, go over and look at two 228 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,360 fifty dots sixty six and then go past the table 229 00:12:00,399 --> 00:12:03,960 and look at a it's connections to rod piper played electrodes, 230 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,519 and it gives you some provisions in there. And you 231 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,000 notice you get to the last sentence and it'll say, 232 00:12:08,159 --> 00:12:10,399 shall not be required to be larger than the six 233 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,480 copper or four lumum. Okay, and we're not going to 234 00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:16,120 talk about the other conductor that's listed there, not going 235 00:12:16,159 --> 00:12:20,679 to reference it, not going to give it any credence 236 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,080 if you will. I'm just not going to do it. 237 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,799 Say it keeps me out of trouble, all right. So 238 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,440 that's what we're dealing with right now. You'll notice that 239 00:12:29,519 --> 00:12:35,080 in the code it does not say anything specific about 240 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,399 the type of electrode. It doesn't get into that, right, 241 00:12:38,879 --> 00:12:42,320 It's just talking about the common grounding electroc conductor and 242 00:12:42,399 --> 00:12:43,600 its associated taps. 243 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 3: So this is why it says it. 244 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,399 Speaker 2: This way, and people get confused with the verbage, and 245 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,600 I've had electrical inspectors get extremely confused with this verbage. 246 00:12:52,919 --> 00:12:54,639 It says again, I'm going to read it so the 247 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,080 context of reading the whole thing, and then I'll stop 248 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,240 again and we'll redo it again if we need to, 249 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,799 but we need to. Repetition is important for me. Redundancy 250 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:04,879 is important. But you don't like that, then this is 251 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,519 not the podcast for you, my friend, because I do 252 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:12,279 things redundantly over and over again to hammer things home. Okay, 253 00:13:12,519 --> 00:13:18,159 it says, a common grinding electro conductor. Hold on, I 254 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,919 got my screen installed upon me, he says, a common 255 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:26,840 grinding electro conductor and grinding electro conductor taps shall be installed. 256 00:13:27,279 --> 00:13:30,600 The common grinding electric conductor shall be installed in accordance 257 00:13:30,639 --> 00:13:35,879 with two six six based on the sum of the 258 00:13:35,919 --> 00:13:41,320 circular mill area of the largest ungrounded conductors of each 259 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:46,799 set of conductors that supplies the disconnecting means. Okay, so 260 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,360 let me kind of paint you that mental picture now. 261 00:13:49,799 --> 00:13:53,279 So let's say that I have a Let's say that 262 00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:55,600 I have a CT again. I can just think of 263 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,799 it as conductor's passing through the CT. It's just the 264 00:13:57,799 --> 00:14:00,480 way of the utility for big services, you don't have 265 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,679 this on residential. You just have a meter and you 266 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:04,120 put the meter in there and that's how they read 267 00:14:04,159 --> 00:14:05,639 your consumption here. 268 00:14:05,919 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 3: Usually if you have a CT, it'll be just the CT. 269 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,879 Speaker 2: The conductors kind of basically passed through from point A 270 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,399 to point B, and then the CT supplies a meter 271 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,159 that's going to tell you how much they're going to 272 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,440 charge you. Amuff Okay, And if it's commercial, they look 273 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,679 at things like power factors and all this other kind 274 00:14:21,679 --> 00:14:23,559 of stuff based on the equipment that they have connected 275 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,600 to the CT makes sense. So just for you and me, 276 00:14:26,679 --> 00:14:29,679 you just box passing through. So it's where the utility 277 00:14:29,679 --> 00:14:33,120 conductors will come in and then they change over to 278 00:14:33,159 --> 00:14:34,879 be able to get to your service equipment. 279 00:14:35,039 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 3: Okay, okay. 280 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 2: So in this case, let's say it's coming out of 281 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,240 the top of the CT, and it's a double lugged CT, 282 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,159 so there's two lugs on the top, so it's basically 283 00:14:46,159 --> 00:14:49,559 coming out the top and one conductor for let's say 284 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,440 C phase. I'm just throwing numbers out there. Ce phase 285 00:14:52,639 --> 00:14:55,639 it says three phase. Let's say C phase. One of 286 00:14:55,639 --> 00:14:57,840 the conductor's out of the double lug feeds one panel 287 00:14:58,519 --> 00:15:01,519 and then the other lug feed a second panel side 288 00:15:01,519 --> 00:15:05,279 by side. So basically it's two conductors coming out of 289 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,720 C phase C okay or leg C. It wouldn't matter 290 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,600 whether it's just one twenty two forty and you have 291 00:15:11,759 --> 00:15:14,360 leg A and B black and red. Let's say again, 292 00:15:14,519 --> 00:15:17,000 colors aren't required. But just I'm trying to paint you 293 00:15:17,039 --> 00:15:19,240 this mental thing. It's the it's the conductors that are 294 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,639 coming out of the other side of the CT that 295 00:15:21,799 --> 00:15:25,279 is going to be supplying two separate service enclosures, okay, 296 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:26,879 and disconnecting means you with me. 297 00:15:27,679 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 3: Okay. 298 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,879 Speaker 2: So now when it says the summation, basically on C, 299 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,159 you've got two conductors coming out of the LOG and 300 00:15:35,159 --> 00:15:39,039 they're probably gonna be the same size three odd. Let's say, okay, well, 301 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,200 or lets make it easy for a two to fifty 302 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:41,679 KC meal. 303 00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:42,519 Speaker 3: Let's make it easy. 304 00:15:42,879 --> 00:15:45,519 Speaker 2: So two fifty casey meal one two fifties feeding one 305 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,200 enclosure in the other two fifties feeding the other enclosure. 306 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,559 Perfectly fine, Right, there's no overcurrent protection ahead of all this. 307 00:15:52,559 --> 00:15:54,879 This is a CT, this is utility supplying it. So 308 00:15:54,919 --> 00:15:58,679 it's still service conductors coming in. So you have two 309 00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:01,159 separate panels, so one one panels being fed by a 310 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,000 two fifty, the other panels being fed by two fifty. 311 00:16:04,039 --> 00:16:08,200 But the summation, as it said, of the conductors that 312 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:12,080 are coming out of the CT would be five hundred 313 00:16:12,159 --> 00:16:16,159 ksemil to five hundreds because that is the set. Let's 314 00:16:16,159 --> 00:16:20,639 say we're just doing the C phase. You with me, okay, 315 00:16:21,159 --> 00:16:23,679 keep it, keep it simple. So it's coming out of 316 00:16:23,679 --> 00:16:27,879 the CT, hitting a wireway that's connected to it, and 317 00:16:27,919 --> 00:16:31,960 then dropping down with the raceways maybe nipples, we call 318 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,120 them nipples. I hate the term nipple, but anyway, it's 319 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,840 a raceway coming down into each set of service enclosures. Oh, 320 00:16:38,879 --> 00:16:42,240 by the way, the image that I'm painting in your mind, 321 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,879 you will be able to watch this on the Coffee 322 00:16:45,919 --> 00:16:52,000 Hour on January seventeenth edition. In twenty twenty five, the 323 00:16:52,039 --> 00:16:55,519 seventh January seventeenth Coffee Hour, we will be going over this. 324 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,879 So for this gentleman, I'm also you know, adding this 325 00:16:58,919 --> 00:17:01,759 to my explanation for Coffee Hour. So again, if any 326 00:17:01,759 --> 00:17:04,720 of this explanation confused you, you do your favorite go look 327 00:17:04,759 --> 00:17:09,839 for Coffee Hour. It talks about the grounding electrode conductors. 328 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:16,039 And go specifically look for the one that's from January seventeenth. 329 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,839 Speaker 3: Okay, just so you know, all right, So in this scenario, 330 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,920 you take the summation because that's what the code said, right, 331 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:25,640 code said. 332 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 2: It says, based on the sum of the circular mill 333 00:17:30,039 --> 00:17:35,400 area of the largest ungrounded conductor's plural of each set. 334 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,599 Speaker 3: So I'm just taking one set set. I'm saying C. 335 00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:40,519 That's it. 336 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 2: They see one set, whether it's paralleled, and you have two, 337 00:17:44,559 --> 00:17:46,279 whether it's parallel, and you have three set, I'm just 338 00:17:46,319 --> 00:17:49,160 taking C. That's it, and I'm gonna add that summation. 339 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,279 So in our case, we had five hundred thousand circular mills, 340 00:17:53,839 --> 00:17:57,200 or we had two fifty running to each individual service, 341 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:02,759 but collectively the sum of those ungrounded conductors that are 342 00:18:02,839 --> 00:18:08,119 supplying the disconnecting means the sum is what five hundred KCML. 343 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:09,559 Speaker 3: You with me, Okay? 344 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 2: Now, it says if the service engine conductors connect directly 345 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,519 to an overhead service conductor, service drop or underground service 346 00:18:17,519 --> 00:18:22,480 conductors or service lateral like not through the CT like 347 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,039 like they go up on a weatherhead and you have 348 00:18:24,079 --> 00:18:26,440 a bunch of risers that come up and they connect 349 00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:30,240 up there, then Basically, it says the common grounding electroc 350 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,799 conductors shall be sized in accordance with Table two fifty 351 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,680 sixty six Note one and all that note says that 352 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,480 if there's multiple sets that are coming, basically it's the 353 00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:45,519 equivalent area of the largest service instance conductor shall be 354 00:18:45,519 --> 00:18:49,680 determined by this summation of the area of the corresponding 355 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,039 conductors of each set. 356 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 1: Okay. 357 00:18:51,799 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 2: So again, if you had six sets, then you just 358 00:18:54,759 --> 00:18:56,279 take all of phase. 359 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 3: C, okay, and add up all those. 360 00:18:59,279 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 2: So if I had a parallel four sets, then I 361 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,839 would just of two fifty. Then it'd be one million 362 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,400 circular mills because I just take the four from C 363 00:19:09,559 --> 00:19:12,480 phase that's it, just one set, that's it, right, and 364 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,200 use that and then I then I go to two 365 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,039 fifty sixty six to the table and work it from there. Okay, 366 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,359 if that makes sense. Okay, So I just wanted to 367 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,720 paint that mental picture. So that's what you do, and 368 00:19:24,759 --> 00:19:25,680 that's what you're going to do. 369 00:19:25,759 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 3: Guys. 370 00:19:26,279 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 2: If you're connecting on the supply side, if you're going 371 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,519 to be using the many options that you have, okay, 372 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,240 if you're going to be using D two for example, 373 00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:41,000 then you're just going individually out to each electrode, and 374 00:19:41,039 --> 00:19:44,000 that's probably going to be dictated by whatever you're running 375 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,039 to the electrode. Okay, for example, ground rods six, you 376 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,480 for four, that type of thing. But if you were 377 00:19:50,559 --> 00:19:55,720 using one of the other electrodes, okay, then you know 378 00:19:55,519 --> 00:19:58,240 you have you could have you'd have a summation issue. 379 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:04,119 But D two is specific perfectly talking about individual grinding electroconductors. 380 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 3: Okay, and again we're gonna talk about that on coffee hour. 381 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,519 Speaker 2: It's not going to be the question today, but we'll 382 00:20:09,559 --> 00:20:12,519 be talking about on coffee hour tomorrow, don't worry. And 383 00:20:12,559 --> 00:20:15,680 then the common location would be like making the connection 384 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:20,039 up into the panel, right, I mean up into the 385 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,000 wireway or making a pan up into the CT or 386 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,440 somewhere on the supply side at common location Okay, it's 387 00:20:26,519 --> 00:20:29,200 like in a wire way or other accessible enclosure on 388 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,640 the supply side. That's exactly what it says. Then you're 389 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,599 gonna have to use this summation like we. 390 00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 3: Just talked about. 391 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 2: Okay, all right, uh, but there are other things that 392 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,039 we do want to point out because there are allowances, okay, 393 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,680 there are allowances for rod piper plates, there are allowances 394 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,680 for U first and in that type of thing, so 395 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,680 in rings. So relax, and we're gonna cover those things 396 00:20:55,759 --> 00:20:58,319 on another episode. Right now, We're just gonna be covering 397 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:03,039 D one right now. That is how you size that now. 398 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,079 So if we were going to let's just say it 399 00:21:05,079 --> 00:21:08,480 was a water pipe ground, right, and we were going 400 00:21:08,559 --> 00:21:10,720 to do this common. So this is one conductor that's 401 00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:13,200 running underneath the two service disconnects, and it's going to 402 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,079 connect to the water pipe ground let's say five feet 403 00:21:15,079 --> 00:21:15,720 a point of entry. 404 00:21:15,839 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 3: Let's just keep it consistent, right. 405 00:21:19,279 --> 00:21:22,799 Speaker 2: That conductor is going to be based on the summation 406 00:21:23,799 --> 00:21:27,960 of the conductors that are ahead of the service disconnects, Okay, 407 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,240 which is that five hundred we got even though each 408 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,799 individual was fed by two fifty, but they come from 409 00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:36,480 the same lug. It's a double lug, so summation would 410 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,799 be five hundred KC mel okay, And that's how we'd 411 00:21:39,799 --> 00:21:40,720 size that common. 412 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 3: Now, what about now? 413 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,039 Speaker 2: The question that people ask is say, okay, I get that, Paul, 414 00:21:48,079 --> 00:21:50,200 And it doesn't tell me the type of electrode that 415 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,400 we're using. And for an exam it may not. And 416 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,200 that's what you got to remember. If it does not, 417 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,599 then you're going to do just like we did the summation, 418 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,519 and you're going to go to the table once you 419 00:21:59,559 --> 00:22:04,240 get your animation. But what if they tell you it's 420 00:22:04,279 --> 00:22:06,200 a ground rod, What if they tell you it's a pipe, 421 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,759 or what did they tell you it's a plate? Well, 422 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,759 that's why it made reference to two fifty dots sixty six, 423 00:22:12,039 --> 00:22:15,599 because not just the table, because it means you get 424 00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:18,599 to use all of two fifty dots sixty six. And 425 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,480 because of that, in the first charging statement of two 426 00:22:21,559 --> 00:22:23,599 fifty dots sixty six, this is what it says. It 427 00:22:23,599 --> 00:22:27,319 says the size of the grounding electroconductor and bonding jumpers. 428 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:31,079 Again that's from electrode electrode for example, UH for connecting 429 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,480 the grounding electrodes shall not be smaller than given in 430 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:40,480 table two fifty dots sixty six, except as permitted in 431 00:22:40,519 --> 00:22:44,200 two fifty dots sixty six A through D. So that's 432 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,480 what so many people get lost at this. Why does 433 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,920 it reference to fifty dots sixty six and two fifty 434 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,680 dots sixty four D one And the reason for that 435 00:22:52,799 --> 00:22:54,240 is it wants you to be able to use all 436 00:22:54,319 --> 00:22:56,920 of two fifty dots sixty six, and this is where 437 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,839 I bring that old saying you can't put ten pounds 438 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,200 of crap in a five pound bag. So if if 439 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,480 you go look at two fifty dot sixty six A, 440 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,440 it says that if the grounding electroconductor or bonding jumper 441 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,079 connected to a single or multiple rods, piper plates, or 442 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:18,559 any combination thereof are as described in two fifty fifty two, 443 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,839 A five or a seven. Okay, that's describing the different 444 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,440 types of electrodes. By the way, does not core extend 445 00:23:27,559 --> 00:23:30,920 onto other types of electrodes that require a larger conductor. 446 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,240 That means you can't go from a ground rod and 447 00:23:34,279 --> 00:23:37,279 then continue up to a upher to complete your connection. 448 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,440 If you were supplementing, then that would be requiring a 449 00:23:41,519 --> 00:23:42,319 larger conductor. 450 00:23:42,599 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 3: So you have to be stopping. 451 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 2: Okay, you have to be ending at the rods piper 452 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,920 plates to be able to use this, okay. Can't extend 453 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,319 on to other electrodes that would require that grounding electroc 454 00:23:53,319 --> 00:23:54,839 conductor to be actually larger. 455 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 3: You can't do that. So with that said, it says. 456 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 2: The grounding electroconductor shall not be required to be larger 457 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,599 than a six copper or for aluminum or that other 458 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:08,759 conductor we won't talk about. 459 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:09,279 Speaker 3: Okay. 460 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:15,319 Speaker 2: So we learned in a coffee hour on the sixteenth 461 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,119 of January that we probably are not going to use 462 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,559 aluminum because if we're going to a rod piper plate, 463 00:24:21,759 --> 00:24:24,319 probably it's going to be within eighteen inches of the 464 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,680 earth outside. And of course we have some rules that 465 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,480 we have to follow that we can't do right, and 466 00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:33,240 we're like, okay, well, I can't follow those rules because 467 00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:37,559 those are problems with two fifty dot sixty four and 468 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,519 I don't want to get into that, to excuse me, 469 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,440 two ten dot yeah, sixty four A. I don't want 470 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,920 to get into that with aluminum or that other conductor 471 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,480 that is not copper or aluminum. 472 00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:52,799 Speaker 3: Well, it's more luminant than it is copper, but that's for. 473 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 2: A that's for a different episode that I won't be 474 00:24:58,519 --> 00:25:01,799 doing because I don't want people's feelings to get hurt. 475 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 3: So anyway, so that's what we've got, okay. 476 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 2: So that's why it references to fifty dots sixty six 477 00:25:09,839 --> 00:25:12,960 because I can use two fifty out sixty six A, 478 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:13,720 B or C. 479 00:25:13,799 --> 00:25:14,559 Speaker 3: We're applicable. 480 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 2: So the answer is question, if I have a five 481 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,319 thousand amp service and I have the conductors coming out 482 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,400 of the CT shoot man, it could be two million 483 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:33,759 circular mills feeding two large service disconnects. If I run 484 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,480 ground rods, which I can, and I put two ground 485 00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:41,599 rods six feet apart for this service, I can use 486 00:25:41,599 --> 00:25:43,640 the same two for all of these service disc connects. 487 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,400 By the way, if they're grouped in the location their 488 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,599 meet the requirements at two thirty dots seventy A one, 489 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,599 they're all grouped in A two and all that stuff 490 00:25:50,599 --> 00:25:53,400 in two thirty dots seventy one and seventy two. If 491 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,319 I meet all those rules and I put two ground 492 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,240 rods in, I can bring all of those. I'm just 493 00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:03,319 running that common one all the way underneath all of them. 494 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,640 Not more than six service disconnects grouped in one location. 495 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,720 I'm gonna running underneath, and i'm gonna take it to 496 00:26:09,759 --> 00:26:12,079 my ground rods, and i'm gonna run a six gauge. 497 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 3: I'm done. 498 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,799 Speaker 2: Because of the allowance, the permissive allowance into fifty sixty 499 00:26:17,799 --> 00:26:22,000 six A, it doesn't matter what size those service conductors are. 500 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:25,519 It doesn't matter about the summation math that people start 501 00:26:25,559 --> 00:26:29,720 blowing their mind in two fifty sixty. 502 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 3: Four D one. 503 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,319 Speaker 2: If I'm using ground rods, doesn't have to be larger 504 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,319 than a six. Again, you can't put ten pounds of 505 00:26:37,319 --> 00:26:39,480 crap in a five pounds back. It is what it 506 00:26:39,559 --> 00:26:42,839 is and it's acceptable. You may not like it, you 507 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,640 may not feel right about it. The same guy that 508 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,319 doesn't feel right about putting a forty amp overcurrent device 509 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,720 on a fourteen gauge because the code says you can 510 00:26:50,799 --> 00:26:54,039 for HVAC or a motor application. It doesn't feel right, 511 00:26:54,759 --> 00:26:58,960 but the code is what it is. Okay, same thing 512 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,839 for a you fur. If I'm going to run a 513 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,920 common underneath these panels and I'm going to run it 514 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,400 to a upher, what does it say to fifty sixty six? 515 00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 3: B says the same concept. 516 00:27:09,039 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 2: If you're not extending this grinding electro conductor onto another 517 00:27:11,759 --> 00:27:15,799 electrode that would be required to have a larger grinding electrode, 518 00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:19,079 like continuing onto a water pipe, which is not listed here, 519 00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:22,079 then it doesn't have to be larger than a four copper. 520 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,039 Notice it doesn't give those other types of grinding electroconductor 521 00:27:26,079 --> 00:27:28,799 of material. It only gives one, and that is a 522 00:27:28,839 --> 00:27:32,720 four gauge. Okay, it's not required to be larger than 523 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,240 a four gauge copper. Now let me answer one question 524 00:27:36,279 --> 00:27:40,599 that people bring up. Could it be smaller than these? 525 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,920 Absolutely it could be. You're not forced to use a 526 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,519 B or C. You could use table two fifty dot 527 00:27:49,599 --> 00:27:53,559 sixty six if the size of the conductors in two 528 00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:58,119 fifty sixty four D one, or if it dictates that 529 00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:58,920 you have. 530 00:27:59,559 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 3: A situation where your conductors are smaller. 531 00:28:01,519 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 2: For example, if you look at table two fifty dots 532 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,640 sixty six, notice it says copper two or smaller. Then 533 00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:09,720 notice that it says the size of the grinding electric 534 00:28:09,759 --> 00:28:14,119 conductor is an eight gauge. So even if it was rods, 535 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,160 you're not required to be larger than the six. But 536 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,400 could you be smaller than a six? Absolutely you could be. 537 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,240 You could be an eight. Now, as we talked about 538 00:28:24,279 --> 00:28:26,720 on Coffee Hour, you got to be careful because once 539 00:28:26,759 --> 00:28:29,519 it becomes an eight, for example, it doesn't matter whether 540 00:28:29,519 --> 00:28:30,920 it's subteto physical damage or not. 541 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,799 Speaker 3: Now you have to protect it in a raceway. 542 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,799 Speaker 2: And in my advice on that episode was to use 543 00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:39,599 schedul ADPBC because you don't want to use any metallic 544 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,400 raceway that may be a Ferris metal. 545 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 3: Then you got all those problems that you're gonna have. 546 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 2: To deal with with bonding right and at each end 547 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,160 of that, And that's something that we'll get into at 548 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,559 some point in two fifty dot sixty four E where 549 00:28:53,599 --> 00:28:56,400 we have to worry about Ferris medals and things like that. 550 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,839 You don't have to worry about that and schedul ADPBC baby, 551 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,400 So just get or done and move on. That type 552 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,880 of scenario. You get me, don't make things work smarter, 553 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,079 not harder. I'm just saying, all right, So now we 554 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,359 know that, for example, we could use a common which 555 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,720 goes underneath both of the all of our service disconnects 556 00:29:13,759 --> 00:29:17,000 and goes to our electrode. If it's a rod piper plate, 557 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,319 it does not have to be larger than a six 558 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,519 copper four aluminum. But again you got those issues about 559 00:29:23,599 --> 00:29:27,200 terminating within eighteen inches of the earth, so be careful. 560 00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 3: With that one. 561 00:29:27,599 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 2: Okay, typically it's going to be copper. Then you don't 562 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,640 have to worry. 563 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 3: So we got that. 564 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 2: Let's see here, if it is a uphur, then it 565 00:29:39,519 --> 00:29:42,119 doesn't have to be larger than a four running underneath 566 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,440 all those services going down to the eupher. You don't 567 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,880 have to supplement a u fur Okay, so we're good. 568 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,599 You have to supplement a ground rod unless you can 569 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,559 prove it's twenty five homes or less, so that's why 570 00:29:52,599 --> 00:29:55,079 you have two. So that extra ground rod is basically 571 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,759 supplementing the first ground rod, and together the act is one. 572 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,960 He heard me tell you that the grounding electric conductor 573 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,799 goes to the first rod. The other one is the 574 00:30:03,839 --> 00:30:06,359 requirement by the code if you can't prove twenty five 575 00:30:06,519 --> 00:30:08,960 ms or less. So basically it's supplementing the first one, 576 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:10,200 and they act as one. 577 00:30:10,519 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 3: So that's why it's. 578 00:30:11,839 --> 00:30:14,759 Speaker 2: It's unbroken to the first one except for some allowances 579 00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:19,000 for cad welding or irreversible crimp. Other than that, it's continuous. 580 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,599 But when you go to the second electrode, that's just 581 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,119 a bombing jumper. So you put two separate connectors on 582 00:30:24,119 --> 00:30:25,799 your ground rod and you go to it. And now 583 00:30:25,799 --> 00:30:28,759 if you want to save a connector an acorn, then 584 00:30:28,799 --> 00:30:31,240 you just make it unbroken. You loop through the one 585 00:30:31,279 --> 00:30:33,480 and you go to the other one rod six feet away, 586 00:30:33,519 --> 00:30:35,039 and you just save yourself a connector. 587 00:30:35,039 --> 00:30:39,079 Speaker 3: But that's not required, all right, So I'm all over 588 00:30:39,119 --> 00:30:40,480 the place. I'm an add kind of guy. 589 00:30:40,599 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: So that common grounding electro conductor that's running underneath your 590 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,480 panels over to your electrode. Done, we showed you how 591 00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:50,920 to size it if it's like a water pipe ground 592 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,400 which then you have to use the summation of the 593 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,559 size of the sets of your service conductors on supply 594 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,960 side of your service disconnect. We showed you that, and 595 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,680 if that confuses you, join me on the seventeenth of January. 596 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,519 Speaker 3: I'll explain it, show you an illustration. 597 00:31:07,079 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 2: But then we also explain that well, if it is 598 00:31:09,559 --> 00:31:12,480 one of the ones that are listed rod piper plate, 599 00:31:12,559 --> 00:31:16,319 A uphur or ring, then you have allowance in two 600 00:31:16,359 --> 00:31:18,519 fifty out sixty six A, B or C. 601 00:31:19,359 --> 00:31:20,359 Speaker 3: If it's any of the. 602 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 2: Other electrodes other than the ones that are in two 603 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,039 fifty out sixty six A, B or C, then you 604 00:31:25,119 --> 00:31:27,400 go right to the table and you're going to base 605 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:32,279 it on the summation. Okay, Now, with all that said, 606 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,559 let's skip on to the part that's the tap part, 607 00:31:35,839 --> 00:31:37,680 because that's the part that people are Okay, so now 608 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,480 I've got my services there, I've got my disconnects there, 609 00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:45,200 separate enclosures, not more than six, all grouped, all happy, happy. 610 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,799 I need to connect from those enclosures down to the 611 00:31:49,839 --> 00:31:53,480 common grounding electrode conductor. Okay, So here's what the code 612 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,440 says under two fifty OT sixty four D one, and 613 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,400 we're going to the second paragraph. It says a grinding 614 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,039 electroe can conductor TAP, and again that is not the 615 00:32:03,079 --> 00:32:07,240 common that's going from the enclosure to connect onto the common. 616 00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:12,880 It says shall extend to the inside of each disconnecting enclosure, 617 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,640 so it needs to go from the common and come 618 00:32:15,839 --> 00:32:18,960 up into the disconnecting means enclosure. 619 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,559 Speaker 3: Okay, so he noticed. 620 00:32:20,599 --> 00:32:25,559 Speaker 2: It says it shall extend to each inside each disconnecting 621 00:32:25,599 --> 00:32:31,200 means enclosure. Each It says the grinding electro conductor TAP 622 00:32:31,559 --> 00:32:35,160 shall be sized at in accordance with two fifty sixty 623 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:40,119 six for the largest service entrance or feeder conductors serving 624 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,599 the individual enclosure. So now you're not basing this on 625 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,920 the total summation like it's all of the conductors that 626 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:47,599 are coming out of. 627 00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 3: Your CT into the wireway. 628 00:32:49,799 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 2: You're only sizing what is supplying the service disconnect of 629 00:32:54,559 --> 00:33:00,359 each individual enclosure individually, Okay, and so that conductor that's 630 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,119 going to be going from that service disconnect the grounded 631 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,079 terminal bus down to the common conductor that you ran 632 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,680 underneath it. That is size based on the conductors that 633 00:33:09,759 --> 00:33:15,440 are supplying the service disconnect for that separate individual enclosure. Okay, 634 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,440 And it says to fifty sixty six again rather than 635 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,319 a table. Why do you think it does that, Because 636 00:33:23,599 --> 00:33:26,279 if you've got a common grounding electro conductor that's only 637 00:33:26,359 --> 00:33:29,160 six gauge due to going to ground rods, then there's 638 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,359 no reason for that tap to be any larger than that, right, 639 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,400 But could it be potentially smaller. 640 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:37,519 Speaker 3: Than the six? 641 00:33:38,319 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 2: Absolutely it could be because I do have the option 642 00:33:41,559 --> 00:33:44,920 to use the table, you get me. That's why they 643 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,200 write it that way. That's why they didn't specifically just 644 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:52,759 send you to the table. Okay, all right, okay, So anyway, 645 00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:54,839 so it says, in accordance with two fifty outs sixty six, 646 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,920 for the largest service entrance or feeder conductor that is 647 00:33:58,279 --> 00:34:02,480 serving that individual enclosure, it says, the tap conductor shall 648 00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:06,960 be connected to the common grinding electro conductor by one 649 00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:09,400 of the following means, not all of them. One of 650 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,880 the following means in such a manner that the common 651 00:34:13,559 --> 00:34:15,719 grinding electrode conductor remains. 652 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 3: Without a splice. 653 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 2: Okay, so we just start that common one underneath the panels. 654 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,880 It just starts out of nowhere. It just starts and 655 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,559 runs underneath them and then continues on to the electrode. 656 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,440 So by making the connection that tap from the enclosure 657 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,639 service enclosure, each individual one down to it, I have 658 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:39,480 to do it so that it doesn't splice that common 659 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,800 It can't splice it or break it anyway. That was continuous. 660 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,880 It has to make a connection to it. Now, how 661 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,480 can we make that connection so that doesn't mess with 662 00:34:50,519 --> 00:34:54,840 the integrity of that common grinding electrode conductor. Well, it 663 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,480 says we can exothermic. Well that if we want so, 664 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,360 we can position it up and do that. I'm probably 665 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,480 not going to do that, but you can. Next it says, well, 666 00:35:05,559 --> 00:35:09,039 you can use connectors listed as grounding and bonding for 667 00:35:09,079 --> 00:35:13,000 grounding and bonding equipment. Well, that's an example of terminations. 668 00:35:13,039 --> 00:35:15,519 In two fifty eight we get a nice little list 669 00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:18,639 of different acceptable methods. Okay, but I'm going to tell 670 00:35:18,639 --> 00:35:21,159 you the one that people mostly use here, because remember 671 00:35:21,639 --> 00:35:25,079 the tap doesn't have to be unspliced obviously, it's coming 672 00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:31,280 from the enclosure and splicing onto the unbroken common grinding election. Right, 673 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,519 So most of the people we just use a split bolt, 674 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,880 a split bolt listed for grounding and bonding applications, stamped 675 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:37,239 as such. 676 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 3: It's listed, it's got its mark on it. It's good 677 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,719 to go. They just use split bolts. So yes, they 678 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,039 can be split bolt. 679 00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 2: The taps can be split bolt to the common grinding 680 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,239 electro conductor, and you're not breaking the common grinding electroductor. 681 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,199 Speaker 3: You're not breaking it, okay. 682 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 2: The third method for doing this is where it's a 683 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:00,159 connections to. 684 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 3: An aluminum or copper. 685 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,639 Speaker 2: Bus bar not less than a quarter of an inch 686 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,239 thick and two inches wide, And of course the length 687 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,559 of it has to be long enough to accommodate all 688 00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:15,760 the connections that you may be making to it. 689 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 3: Okay, So that goes without saying. 690 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 2: If you have other connections, you need to make sure 691 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,559 you have a number of terminations that is actually necessary 692 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,320 to make those connections, okay. 693 00:36:24,519 --> 00:36:25,559 Speaker 3: So again the. 694 00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 2: Length of it's dependent on your number of connections, but 695 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,360 the width of it is dictated two inches wide, and 696 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,440 the thickness of this aluminum bar or copper bus bar 697 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,719 is a quarter of an inch thick, which is probably 698 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,280 standard for any of those bus bars that. 699 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,119 Speaker 3: You would buy for this type of application. 700 00:36:42,159 --> 00:36:44,800 Speaker 2: They're very common to use in data centers on the 701 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,920 wall when you're creating this grid or you're used outside. 702 00:36:48,199 --> 00:36:49,880 Very common to buy these bus bars that have their 703 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,920 own little feet that you mount and that kind of 704 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:53,639 raises and elevates it off the wall. 705 00:36:53,639 --> 00:36:54,800 Speaker 3: That type of thing very common. 706 00:36:55,559 --> 00:36:58,119 Speaker 2: And it tells you that that bus bar shall be 707 00:36:58,199 --> 00:37:02,840 securely fastened and shall I'll be installed in an accessible location. 708 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,199 Speaker 3: Ain't no hiding that bus bar, folks. Accessible. 709 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 2: It says connections shall be made to that bus bar 710 00:37:10,159 --> 00:37:12,639 from your grinding electroconductor. It shall be made by a 711 00:37:12,679 --> 00:37:17,199 listed connector or by exothermic welding process. It says if 712 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,639 aluminum bus bar are used, the installation shall comply with 713 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,440 two fifty sixty four A. And that's just a reminder 714 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,880 that not to make it so that it is within 715 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,119 eighteen inches of the earth. 716 00:37:27,159 --> 00:37:28,519 Speaker 3: That's all it's making a reference to. 717 00:37:28,679 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 2: I love how the code does that. Some people hate it, 718 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,039 but I love how it does it. Okay, just makes 719 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:41,719 everything clean and clear. Okay, So just kind of one 720 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,880 of those things. Now, if you have link and you 721 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,559 remember NFPA and you subscribe to link, it's like one 722 00:37:46,639 --> 00:37:49,880 hundred and twenty bucks a year to get so much information. 723 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,400 They have a really nice enhanced content illustration. It's really 724 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,119 nice and it basically shows a picture of it and 725 00:37:57,159 --> 00:37:59,800 the connections and how it does and all that kind 726 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:00,320 of things. 727 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,559 Speaker 3: So encourage you. If you have it, go look at it. 728 00:38:03,559 --> 00:38:07,079 Speaker 2: It is underneath D one and it kind of shows 729 00:38:07,119 --> 00:38:09,480 an example of what I've pretty much painted you a 730 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,920 mental picture of. And of course we'll look at it 731 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,079 as well when we come to. 732 00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 3: The coffee hour. 733 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 2: Now, I will remind you the one that's shown in 734 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,639 the picture does not dictate the type of electrode. 735 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 3: And that's important. 736 00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 2: Because if it doesn't dictate the type of electrode, then 737 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,480 you're going to be going to wear You're be going 738 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,599 to the tables. You're not going to be going to 739 00:38:30,599 --> 00:38:33,320 like two fifty sixty six A for ride Piper play 740 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,599 because they did not tell you the type of electrode. 741 00:38:35,679 --> 00:38:38,960 That's so important guys for taking exams. If they don't 742 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,360 tell you the type of electrode, and you're going to default, 743 00:38:41,599 --> 00:38:45,519 okay at the table based on the summation of conductors. Okay, 744 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,280 You're not going to be using a B or c 745 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,960 in sixty six because it doesn't make a reference to 746 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,000 the type of electrodes, so you shouldn't assume the type 747 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,320 of electrode. So that's why you end up at the table. Okay, 748 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,880 all right, well I think that's great. I think that's 749 00:39:03,159 --> 00:39:06,400 a lot of information. We're going to go over some 750 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:11,880 great illustrations on our coffee hour and it's going to 751 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,719 be again Friday seventeenth, so we'll be going over it 752 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,000 and it'll be easier to understand. 753 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 3: I promise you it'll be. 754 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 2: Sometimes illustrations make it just worth it, and so we'll 755 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,639 be showing you that connection on how it's done. But basically, 756 00:39:26,639 --> 00:39:28,800 what it means is you're coming out either the all 757 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,239 of these service disconnections, you're coming down, you're hitting a bus, 758 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,199 and then all of them come together on one little 759 00:39:34,199 --> 00:39:37,480 bus I shouldn't say little, you know, one bus, and 760 00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:42,000 then from there the common goes over to the electrode. Okay, 761 00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:45,000 so that type of thing. So we'll show you that 762 00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:48,880 and again explain that in extreme detail. But hopefully that 763 00:39:49,039 --> 00:39:52,599 answers the gentleman's question that's submitted to me. You most 764 00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:55,800 certainly can use two fifty sixty six A B and c. 765 00:39:56,159 --> 00:39:58,280 The permission to do that was right up at the 766 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,599 beginning of two fifty otis sixty six. Anytime it references 767 00:40:02,679 --> 00:40:05,320 like two fifty sixty four D one. Anytime it references 768 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,320 two fifty dots sixty six, then you get to use 769 00:40:07,559 --> 00:40:10,480 all of two fifty dot sixty six depending on what 770 00:40:10,639 --> 00:40:13,760 your condition is. And your condition was rods and so 771 00:40:14,039 --> 00:40:18,199 most certainly, again, you can't put ten pounds of crap 772 00:40:18,199 --> 00:40:21,119 in a five pound bag. So and this is also 773 00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:25,280 keeps you from oversizing conductors that are unnecessary. We have 774 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,159 significant data over the years that say, you know what 775 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,639 ground rods are fine, do this, They're fine. 776 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,119 Speaker 3: Then you're okay, okay, don't have to freak out. All right, 777 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:37,800 all right, folks, that's it. 778 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 2: I just wanted to make sure that I covered the 779 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:41,920 good stuff in answer this question. 780 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:43,559 Speaker 3: But again, I encourage you to join me. 781 00:40:43,679 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 2: Folks, everybody out there that's listening to our podcast, no 782 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,800 matter when you listen, if you made it this far 783 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,400 in the podcast, we're forty minutes in, make sure you 784 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,880 join me Monday through Friday at eight am Eastern Time 785 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:57,519 over on fast Tracks Tube. 786 00:40:57,679 --> 00:40:59,079 Speaker 3: We have a free link at the top. 787 00:40:59,199 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 2: All you got to go to it and at the 788 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,440 link at the top, it'll say live shows and free webinars. 789 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:04,639 Speaker 3: Just click on it. 790 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,599 Speaker 2: That's where we have Coffee Hours live stream. But you 791 00:41:07,599 --> 00:41:10,119 can also watch on our YouTube channel which is at 792 00:41:10,199 --> 00:41:13,360 Master the NEC, our Facebook channels which are also at 793 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:19,880 Master the NEC, and you can follow at that's pretty 794 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,039 much of those, and obviously you can follow us on 795 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,320 our fast tracks to that type of thing, all right, 796 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,360 and over on LinkedIn as well. It's just my name, 797 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,199 Paul Abernathy. You'll know it when you see it. Or 798 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,800 you can follow our company Electrical Code Academy, Inc. And 799 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,440 it streams over there as well as whatever whatever you. 800 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:38,639 Speaker 3: Want, all right, folks. 801 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,159 Speaker 2: Until next time, folks, stay safe, God bless and now 802 00:41:41,199 --> 00:41:43,119 we'll catch you on an upcoming episode of Let's Ask 803 00:41:43,159 --> 00:41:43,760 Paul Peace. 804 00:42:01,679 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: Nothing Mask, Nothing No