Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the
social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway
Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime.
Speaker 4: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas, and we're.
Speaker 4: Joined today by Jim Clemente, retired FBI profiler and writer,
producer on CBS's Criminal Minds and host of Real Crime Profile.
And Laura Richards, behavioral analyst from New Scotland and host
of Real Crime Profile and Crime Analyst, here to talk
about the FBI pressor on January eighth about the new
breaks in the Colonial Parkway murders cases. Jim and Laura,
thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 5: Great to be here. Thank you, great to be here.
Speaker 6: If you recall we talked Bill back in twenty sixteen
about this case and about the murder of your sister
and her girlfriend and three other double homicides that happened
along the Colonial Parkway back in the late eighties.
Speaker 2: And we'll link to those episodes of Real Crime Profile.
And we can't thank the two of you enough for
being here. We know your time is valuable and your
insight in particular, the two of you bring I don't
know how many years worth of law enforcement experience to
the table, but we can't thank you enough. This is
one of those situations where our heads are spinning, quite frankly.
This past Monday, January eighth, twenty twenty four, the Virginia
State Police FBI and the Hampton, Virginia Police Department had
a press conference. We ended up with probably far more
questions than we received answers, because it felt like the
presentation was very confusing. Both of you had a chance
to take a look at some of the press conference.
What did you make of it?
Speaker 7: I watched it and I tweeted about it immediately after
texting you, Bill and also looking for what you were
saying about it, because I have to say I was
confused and it was a very confusing press conference. I
couldn't quite work out why they weren't referring to the
Colonial Parkway murders. They talked about the Isle of Wight
murders and they were referencing David Nobling and Robin Edwards,
and then talked about another case that was linked to
Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. And that was a great development
to hear that there was suspect identified that he has
he was deceased, So it wasn't that this is a
man hunt or a live investigation. It was we are
confirming that there is a suspect identified who was Alan
Wade Wilmer Senior, age sixty three, but he died in
twenty seventeen, and he was responsible DNA confirmed for the
nineteen eighty seven attack and murder of David Nobling and
Robin Edwards. And there was a sexual component to the
Robin Edwards' case. And in nineteen eighty nine he strangled,
raped and murdered Teresa Howell, who was twenty nine and
that happened in Hampton. So I hadn't heard of Teresa
Howe before, so I was very curious about that case.
But given its strangulation, rape and murder, my immediate question
was about how many other victims are there? What about Kathy?
What about Becky? What about all the other cases that
we've discussed as part of the Colonial Parkway murders. It
also made me think about what about Lolly Winans and
Judy Williams that happened ten years later that I've talked
about extensively on Crime Analyst and spoken to both of
you about. But it was just very confusing. I felt
there was some distance by the FBI in calling it
the Isle of Wight murders, and it meant that people
would be confused, because if I was confused and I
knew about the case, what would that mean for the public.
And it probably meant that other people didn't join the dots,
and it didn't get as much attention as it should
because what they were trying to call upon was for
the public to help timeline this very prolific perpetrator. So
if your aim is to timeline someone, you put out
accurate information. You're very clear you want the public's help,
so you have to create trust and confidence. You can't
have people sat there thinking, hang on a minute, wait
is this part of this other series or what's going on?
Because that's a distraction. So I was concerned, and I
did want to know about Kathy and Becky, and they
did say the investigation is ongoing. It's been ongoing for
many decades. Jim, I don't know how you We talked
in the morning that it was coming, and what did
you think.
Speaker 6: I spoke to Bill before the press conference, and so
I had an idea of what was coming, and then
what I saw of the press conference, I didn't see
it coming. What I saw was confusion and obfuscation and
actually some things that I thought we were outright wrong incorrect,
like a statement that was made that because there was
no felonies on Wilmer's record, that they couldn't legally collect
DNA to test it against the DNA that was found
in these murder scenes, which is it's just an out
and out bullshit lie.
Speaker 5: That's just not true at all.
Speaker 6: You don't need anything of the subject's criminal record, you
don't need anything. He could be a stellar citizen, but
you can grab his garbage, because that's actually a band property,
and you could test items in his garbage, or you
could follow him and when he discards a coke can
like they did in the Golden State killer case, you
can collect that and then get the DNA off of it,
and then you can get a warrant to actually collect
his da officially by doing a bugle swab, for example,
and confirm it. But this is just that's just wrong,
that's just not true. They did not have to wait
till he died. That sounded like a flimsy, bullshit excuse
to me. But the important thing is that not only
was he tied to the murder of Teresa Howell, but
also to the murder of two of the victims that
have been classically identified as Colonial Parkway murder victims, and
that was Robin Edwards and David Noblin. But there are
still three other double homicides in that case. I don't
know if this was some they're obfuscating about the fact
that the Nobling and Edwards cases were related to the
Colonial Parkway murders.
Speaker 5: I don't know if they were trying.
Speaker 6: Not to mention it or harp on it because they
didn't want to basically put words in people's mouths or
get people to who doesn't don't really know information to
call in. I don't know if they were afraid of
the hype or something, but it's just as you said, Laura,
if you're actually looking for help to solve unsolved homicides
and they're in a series that everybody knows about in
the area and in fact probably the nation, why would
you avoid it. It just doesn't make any sense unless
they're hiding something. Maybe they have more information and they
want to hold it back. I don't know, but I
hope that it's a legitimate law enforcement purpose and it
isn't just in confidence at this point, because, like you said,
I left that press conference more confused about what was
going on than when I started it.
Speaker 2: Our listeners were the same way. We have over twenty
thousand followers on two different Facebook pages, Colonial Parkway Murders
and mind Over Murder this podcast, and our listeners were
so baffled they were like, is this part of the
Colonial Parkway murders or not? And actually the announcement that
Alan Wade Wilmer Senior has been identified as the killer
of these three individuals confirms that the Colonial Parkway murders
series is real, and that this couple, Robin Edwards and
David Knobling, we now have identified their killer. People were
asking us why are they calling this by another name?
Even my partner Pamela, who is not following the case
as closely as Kristin and I are, she finally watched
the press conference with me about ten pm that Monday night,
and she said, why are they not calling this case
by its proper name, the name that hundreds of thousands
of people in the area. No press people contacted us afterwards,
and they were like, they didn't even make it clear
what it was that they were going to talk about,
which actually held down reduced the number of press people
who showed up for the press conference because it wasn't
very clear what the heck it was they were going
to be talking about that day.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was a mistake, and it is an anomaly
to have a press conference led by a press liaison
officer rather than by the lead law enforcement agencies that
are involved in the investigation. I believe that they might
have spoken later, but to lead off with just by
a press officer and then to refuse to answer specific
questions about the investigation. When you have a case that
is clearly a deceased offender, there's no reason to be
hiding the ball anymore. When in solved cases they said
he would be charged if you were still alive, then
there's no reason to hide this stuff.
Speaker 2: That was my reaction to Jim, And I'm glad you
used that expression because I actually, when I finally got
a chance to watch the press conference hours later, for
reasons that we can get into, I said, why is
the FBI playing hide the ball? M h there deliberately,
I believe, not being clear on what the heck it
is we're talking about.
Speaker 6: Well, Bill, I don't know if your conversations with the
FBI or these other investigatory agencies include more information about
the case and the murder of your sister and some
of these other Colonial Parkway murders. And I know if
that's the case, and you're not allowed to share, you're
not allowed.
Speaker 5: To share, and that's great, we'll certainly honor that.
Speaker 6: But the fact that they did not notify you that
this press conference was going to happen when clearly it
is related to the Colonial Parkway murders and your sister's
case therefore is an important part of this, and you
as one of the surviving not only one of the
surviving family members, but as one of the leading liaisons
between law enforcement and the other families involved in the
Colonial Parkway murders, you would think that you would be
put high on the priority list in terms of official
notification by law enforcement.
Speaker 2: We received no notification whatsoever. Now, I want to be clear,
the other families did receive notification. I pointedly did not.
So Kristin Dilly and I were not informed. The other
families were informed.
Speaker 7: And when you say other families, you're talking about David
Nobling and Robin Edwards. Their families were informed. They did
know about what was coming.
Speaker 2: And Teresa Howe and other Colonial Parkway murders families in addition.
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, in addition with the exception of yourself, which
to me is just absolutely outrageous. I cannot understand how
that could be a decision that is taken and then
executed when you have been such a pivotal part, particularly
being a spokesperson across We spoke to you in twenty sixteen,
we were the first to speak to you on Real
Crime profile about the case, and you always made sure
you talked about the other families as well, and I
just cannot understand why they would take that decision. And
I'm horrified that you didn't know about the detail of
what was coming, because you have to psychologically prepare yourself
as well. It's not just about getting the information, it's
about being psychologically prepared for what you're going to hear,
what's going out to the public domain, what other people
are going to hear, and what they're going to ask
you about.
Speaker 2: This very odd thing happened with our longtime case agent.
I've been dealing with this agent for ten years. I
hold her in very high regard. She texted me at
I think it's about seven point thirty on Monday morning.
Now I knew the press conference was coming. Kristin and
I had received advance word from other media sources. From
media sources, yes, but no one in law enforcement contacted us.
I actually knew about the content of much of the
press conference several months in advance, again from a media contact,
so I actually knew suspects names and some of what
was going to be said in January, as early as October,
and Kristin and I share information. Of course, we wanted
to be respectful of the process and not interfere with
an active investigation, and no announcement was being made at
that point, so Kristin and I committed that we weren't
going to say anything to anyone, and we didn't. So
we sat on this information for si several months. Moving
back to Monday morning, we received word and Kristin reached
out to me and she said, there's going to be
a press conference on Monday. And then a short while later,
Kristin sent me some information and even Kristin Dilley, who's
an expert, she wrote to me a text and said,
is this the press conference we were waiting for? It doesn't
even mention the Colonial Parkway murders now, And so the
confusion started from that point, and then back to the
outreach from my FBI agent. She reached out to me
and texted me and asked me if I would be
available to speak to her at one point thirty PM.
At this point, Kristin and I didn't know what time
the press conference was. And the only reason I'm getting
into this level of detail is she then set a
time to talk with me six hours in advance, and
we realized the press conference was going to be at
the same time. I actually texted the agent back and said,
is your intention for us to watch the press conference together?
She set up this call for one thirty pm. Kristen
comes back to me and says, you know, it appears
the press conference is at one thirty pm. I texted
the agent back and said, is your intention were supposed
to watch this together? And she said no. So we
had a fantastic, in depth private briefing. Some of the information. Jim,
you know that I can't share at this point as
a family member and the brother of a murder victim.
I do try to be respectful. I know they ding
me on this every single time they can, but I
do actually try not to be a source of information
before it's appropriate. But we talked for two hours, the
agent and nine. But that was during the exact moment
when the press conference is going on, And you think
to yourself later, huh, it's almost like they didn't want
me to watch the press conference. Laurie, you were saying
you were trying to reach me, or why was I
radio silent during the press conference? You were already texting
about the conference.
Speaker 7: Yes, I found it very odd Bill that I was
trying to message you and putting stuff out on social
media and seeing your reaction, because for me, I just
found it confusing. I posted that on social media, just saying,
somewhat confusing presser, but a suspect has been identified. I
wanted to get the information out there to help law enforcement,
but I was very confused. I was very distracted by
what we weren't hearing about and why it was being
done in the way that it was, And now hearing
that you were asked to speak at the exact time,
it just feels intentional to me, and I feel really uncomfortable.
I've been grinding my teeth. I hope listeners haven't heard
that on the microphone, but just hearing you say those
things have been grinding my teeth, and just I find
it maddening because you could have that conversation with her
at any other point, and you have been a trusted
person across all of this time. You've always been respectful,
in my opinion, and when there are things that cannot
be discussed, you're very clear about that. So on the
day that is so important for you to hear information,
you don't get the heads up about what's coming out.
But then your time is being monopolized at the exact
time the rest of the world hearing what's going on.
I don't know, Jim. It just feels really uncomfortable.
Speaker 6: It feels deliberate, and I think I have some clarity
on it based on what Bill said and what you
just said, Laura, and what Kristin said.
Speaker 5: I believe that it is probably a deliberate.
Speaker 6: Attempt to keep Bill and Kristen from making any kind
of public statements about this case.
Speaker 5: That she was that this FBI agent was not authorized.
Speaker 6: Or didn't want to say anything to Bill until it
was actually made public, so that's why she started the
call at the same time as the press conference, and
that she did not she they singled out Bill as
one of the family members and didn't give him any
advance warning of what was going to that the press
conference was going to happen, or that what it was.
Speaker 5: Going to contain.
Speaker 6: They didn't want to give him any of that information
in advance because they know he does a podcast and
he is he does speak publicly about this case. He
wants to keep it in public's mind so that it
puts pressure on law enforcement to continue working the case.
But he's always totally respectful in terms of what when
they say this can't go out, he doesn't let it
go out, And so they shouldn't have put him in
this category. They should have treated him like the other
victims' family members, and he should have been at least
given some advanced notice not only of the press conference,
but advanced notice of what it would contain, so that
he would be able to prepare. As you said, Laura,
because this is a serious life event. This is not
just a game. And I don't like the fact that
it appears that she was playing games.
Speaker 4: The whole thing just feels very contrived and really very manipulative.
And as Bill and I were speaking, I was fortunately
my schedule at school allowed me to be off at
a time when I could go home and run this
presser through my computer and then I could start doing
all the social media stuff that we do. And I
called Bill as I was speeding my way home to
get here to watch this press conference, and we were debating,
do we maybe let the FBI agents call go to
voicemail so that he can watch the presser? Like, how
are we going to deal with that? And ultimately we
decided it's better for him to take that call, and
I can always watch the press conference, which I did,
and record it and transcribe it to send it to
him later. But I really don't like the fact that
Bill was put in that position, because, as you said, Jim,
it's a major life event for him and he needed
to be able to watch it in real time and
process it and ask questions. And I think the reason
that she had him on the phone was so that
he couldn't watch it and couldn't ask questions at that point.
Speaker 2: And the weird thing is, I've been dealing with this
agent for ten years and normally she texts me and
we've talked I don't know hundreds, but it's probably we
talk a lot, and she's been incredibly helpful and hard
working and dedicated.
Speaker 5: Our usual mo is.
Speaker 2: She texts me and says, can we talk? And I
do my damnedest to stop what I'm doing and call
her immediately, a five minute turnaround kind of thing, because
she's a very important person in my world. She has information,
not every single time, but she tells me what's going
on with my sister, Kathy Thomas, Rebecca Dowski, and the
other Colonial Parkway murder victims, what's going on, and especially
with Kathy and Becky, So for her to reach out
to me the first thing in the morning to set
up a call at one thirty pm. Even at the
moment I received the text and I wrote back and said, yes,
of course, I thought to myself, since when are we
setting up calls six hours in advance?
Speaker 5: Bill. I just think it was deliberate. I think that
a decision was made somewhere.
Speaker 6: I don't know if it was her decision or above
her or another agency to keep.
Speaker 5: You in the dark until that moment.
Speaker 6: And that's why she called you, and that's why she
spent two hours on the phone with you so that
you could get this information. But she deliberately did not
want or somebody deliberately did not want you to have
any information at all about this press conference or about
what they were going to say in advance. I think
that's what it boils down to.
Speaker 7: Ill just weigh in that you're not the enemy here,
and I think that needs to be made clear. You've
never been the enemy. You've always been the person that's
been respectful everything I've seen of you over the years
that i've known you, You've always been very respectful of
information and what goes out and when. And I do
think trust and confidence works both ways. That if you
want to create trust and confidence, you have to put
it into that person too, and I think that is
unfortunately not the right way to do it. And to
put you in the dark of what other people are
absorbing and understanding and put you on the back foot.
That really doesn't work well. And I think the whole
press conference unfortunately didn't really work well because the timeline
you're trying to get information out from the public. You
want information from them to timeline this individual. But there
were just so many question marks. As to one of
the media people asked, can you explain how Alan Wade
Wilmer Senior became known to you? No, said the press officer.
And it was an immediate shutdown, and it was stark.
And look, there are times when you have to control
information and the flow of information. But let's be clear,
this perpetrator is deceased. He is not alive. It's not
about compromising a man hunt or an investigation that's ongoing.
At this point. They're trying to rely on the public
and on both of you the same as us. Why
we want to talk about the case is to amplify it,
to make sure that people know about Alan Wade Wilmerth Senior.
They know about who he is, that he was on
the water, he was a waterman, he was a hunter,
he had a truck, and we'll go into all of that,
but we want to put that information out there. You
don't want people to be puzzled or distracted by these
other things going on. But I sense, my read of it,
why this press conference happened in this way is because
there's some real ugly horror stories that lurk behind it.
Speaker 6: I e.
Speaker 7: A man like Alan Wade Wilmerth Senor does not at
the age of thirty three just start attacking two people
who are together, David and Robin and sexually assault Robin.
And that is never going to be the first offense.
So there's going to be lots of things that he
most likely did before and lots of things that And
we know about one potential murder and of course there's
information and there's intelligence, but we do know about other
cases that he was and one in particular where he
was the prime suspect, and if that's what they're guarding, Unfortunately,
they have to be more transparent being more transparent. Actually
increases trust and confidence from the public. It increases trust
and confidence from the families. This is my experience of
twenty seven years working with families who say, we know
sometimes human era happens. We know sometimes you get things
wrong right, But if you try and hide it, if
you cover things up, that does not sit well, and
the cover up is worse than the actual event itself.
That's my experience of working with hundreds and hundreds of families.
So I can understand that you might feel on the
back foot of things, and I'm really sorry that happened,
because you don't deserve that. Actually, Bill, you've been a
really incredible and tremendous spokesperson for not just your sister,
not just an advocate for Kathy and Becky, but for
all the families. And I've always thought incredibly highly of
you for that. You've been a tremendous advocate. So I'm
sorry that there seems to be some kind of strategy
to keep you in the dark and to monopolize your time.
I don't think that's helpful a tool in this case.
Speaker 2: I was on a conference call with the FBI investigators
a couple of years ago, and I get exasperated from
time to time, and I'm not proud of that, and
my mom wouldn't be terribly proud of me either, But
I got so exasperated on one of those calls. I
actually said to this group of FBI investigators, since when
does the brother of the murder victim become the enemy?
Because that's sometimes how they treat me.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it shouldn't be, and that's why there should be
a liaison officer that has your well being and your
information as one of their priorities. And it's just it's
irresponsible and not necessary. The thing is that, obviously the
information that you get from law enforcement isn't just information
to you. It isn't just news like it is to
the general public. This is your family, Your sister was
brutally murdered, and you still don't have answers, and they should.
Every person in law enforcement should understand your need to know.
So it's just very unfortunate you're.
Speaker 2: Listening to Mind over Murder. Will be right back after
this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder.
I want to focus on something positive, which Kristin and
I are trying to strongly support. They have put out
some pretty good information about Alan Wade Wilmer Sr. As
Laura was saying, he drove a very distinctive truck. He
had a very distinctive boat, the Denny Wade. It was
a fishing boat with a big graphic on the side.
He himself is a physically very distinctive man. He's got
average looks with a neatly trimmed beard. And they had
a really good age progression of photographs, which I think
might be a Virginia driver's license pictures, but they were
really good. You could see what he looked like back
in the eighties, all the way back through to age
sixty three when he passed. One thing I think they missed, though,
was he's a very distinctively short individual. He's five foot
five inches tall, which I think is five inches less
than the average man. He's very muscular, so I almost
picture a dude that looks like pop By the sailor
man driving this very distinctive truck. He's got a very
distinctive boat, and then he himself has these very distinctive
physical characteristics. What Kristin and I are trying to do
on Mind Over Murder is really push out on our
podcast but especially on our social media media platforms mind
of a murder and Colonial Parkway murders on Facebook and
other platforms, these photographs and this information, because the Virginia
State Police and the FBI now are asking for help,
they're trying to timeline this man, especially back in the
nineteen eighties when these murders were happening, and they're asking
people to come forward. One of the things that Kristin
and I are trying to do is people are commenting
and telling stories, including some scary stories about Alan Wade Wilmer, Sr.
And we're trying to push those folks respectfully. Don't just
talk about it to Bill and Kristen on a social
media page, or don't just post it on your own page.
Please get this information to law enforcement.
Speaker 6: Call the FBI or the State Police Virginia State Police hotlines.
Speaker 5: Well. Also, Bill, we should focus.
Speaker 6: On the offender's behavior because Laura and I this is
what we do. This is our bread and butter, and
we would expect that this guy had a number of
precursor crimes that were committed in the late seventies early eighties,
crimes like stalking and peeping and maybe breaking and entering
or harassing people. And these kinds of things may many
times be dismissed as unimportant by the public, but and
they may sometimes be dismissed as unimportant by the police,
but they are incredibly important to build the timeline of
this guy and his offenses. As I think Lauras said earlier, again,
he didn't just start at the age of thirty three
of abducting, raping and killing people. He actually started earlier,
probably in his late adolescence, and he was probably committing
these kind of precursor crimes.
Speaker 5: These are things that are important.
Speaker 6: So if you have any history of interacting with this guy,
this five foot five guy named Alan Wade Wilmer Senior,
and whether it's in your neighborhood or in your in
a business dealing, or on the water, or in his
tree service company or on the road, anything you might
have to tell the police about him and his behavior,
all of that is incredibly important. We would all encourage
you to call the FBI tipline or the state police
email tip line so that you can put this information
into official records so that then they can build a
better timeline.
Speaker 7: And even if you've reported it, please re report it
because often these things get lost, and as Jim said,
extensive experience of working these cases, oftentimes those who are
peeping tom's or loitering or standing near you leering at you,
making you feel uncomfortable, or obscene phone calls, exposing yourself.
These sorts of things can oftentimes be not just ignored
by you, and you minimize it and think it's not
anything major, But it's a gateway crime to something much
more serious. And often it is minimized by law enforcement,
and I will say particularly male officers, because often it
will not happen to them, and therefore they don't understand
how terrifying it is when you're a lone female and
that happens to you. And this guy being along the waterway.
We did talk about Kathy and Becky and did the
perpetrator have a boat for example, we did discuss that specifically,
didn't we So again, it's really interesting how transient he was,
but he did have anchor points and he did use
the boat. He was a hunter, hunting equals stalking. He
had a tree service business, so that means he's part
of the street furniture. He could be somewhere and people
don't necessarily think, oh, this guy. So it seems to
me that he used all of these things in the
commission of his offenses, and I think it's really important
that people do put that information back into the FBI
or Virginia State Police. And the other thing to say
is that when I was listening to that press conference, yes,
I believe that he had an extensive history and he
would have had contact with law enforcement. And then it
became known. I read Blaine Pardu's book blog that he
recently put out about the book and about him and
his books A Special kind of Evil. I know you
know the book well, but page two oh four he
talked about Wilma being a prime suspect in the Cassandra
Haley and Keith Call murders in April nineteen eighty eight.
That for me was just exactly what I see so
often in cases where a suspect is overlooked, even though
there were some very important behaviors and information about him.
And one of those things and we talked about this
with Kathy and Becky how the perpetrator approached them. We
heard from Blaine Pardu that Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior was
approaching couples in cars along the parkway. He was aggressive,
he was confronting them, He was banging on windows. One
particular event, he bangs on the window. He thinks it's
two women together, but it's actually a guy and a woman.
The guy had long hair, and he turns around, but
he said, a you girl's having fun, and then when
he sees it's a bloke, he then backs off. These
are exactly the types of behaviors that we would expect
as precursors, and his truck was called in to law enforcement.
These events were called into law enforcement, and after Cassandra
and Keith went missing, he was under surveillance and there
was drive by surveillance going on, and actually law enforcement
turned up spoke to him when he was spray painting
his truck and vacuuming and cleaning it out and painting it.
They felt that he was a prime suspect. They went
off and got a warrant because they wanted to search
his trailer, and in the trailer they find weapons, handcuffs, pornography.
These are all things that Jim and I would see
as absolute critical information, red flag behavior. And a witness
also placed him at the scene where Cassandra and Keith
went missing. So they've got a four pronged approach, if
you will, and approach and four pronged key behaviors about
this individual, and they bring in a polygrapher, an experienced polygrapher,
who they say eliminated him as not being involved in
the murder. I just find that absolutely staggering, given all
that we know, and we can put ourselves back in
time and say, maybe it wasn't as well known about
stalking and predatory behavior and sexual violence, serial killers and
so forth, But I got a saven on a basic level,
Jim of being a police officer or a detective, these
things should have raised red flags and it should never
have been let's eliminate him based on a lie detector test.
Speaker 6: I think, actually to credit the fbis at the time
they actually felt like he was a good suspect and
continued to feel that way even though he got washed out.
But I will say this bill that behavior that Laura
just outlined with that one couple in their car where
he banged on the window and said, are you girls
having fun? And then was startled to find that one
of them was a guy, and then he took off,
I think that's a direct tie to your.
Speaker 5: Sister, Kathy and Becky's case. The fact that he.
Speaker 6: Would approach a car with two girls in it and
then retreat when he found out it was a girl
and a guy. To me, your sister and her girlfriend
were in that car together, and they were in their
car together, and this could very well be how he
approached at that point, banging on the door. Your sister
may have lowered the window. It may have told him
to get out of there, and that could have been
the beginning. And the fact that he had weapons, that
he was a hunter. We know that he had knives
because he used a knife to kill them.
Speaker 5: We also believed that.
Speaker 6: He had guns because he was able to control two
adults who would have fought back. But by controlling one
person in a couple, you can then control the other.
In other words, you can threaten one person and if
the other person doesn't anything, then that person, the first person,
will be killed, And that is a good way to
threaten a couple.
Speaker 7: He had weapons and handcuffs.
Speaker 6: Jim in handcuffs, which, yeah, we all thought that at
the point that during the course of the murders of
your sister and her girlfriend, that there was a high
likelihood that he had controlled one of them first and
threatened her and then kept got her tied up somehow,
and then went after the other one. Obviously, handcuffs are
a way to do that, to accomplish that, and the
fact that he had those cuffs should have been incredibly
important to the investigators and may very well be why
he was able to pull off these double homicides.
Speaker 2: What shocking, though, in what was baffling to Kristen and
me and the other Colonial Parkway murders families was none
of this was mentioned that the press conference. As you mentioned, Laura,
when a reporter asked, when did this man, Alan Wade
Wilmer Senior move on to law enforcement's radar, they refuse
to answer the question. Now, he was suspect number one,
that's what the agents called it in the disappearance of
Keith Colin Cassandra Haley, and somehow that was never covered
in this press conference. So this is a situation where
those of us that are close to the details of
the Colonial park rammerders, which I know is not most people.
Those of us that know some of the detail, and
we don't claim to be as expert as law enforcement.
We're all looking at each other after we finally have
a chance to watch the press conference, Who're like, what
the heck was that and why don't they mention the
fact that Wilmer was suspect number one in Keith Colin
Cassandra Haley's disappearance.
Speaker 5: Well, Bill, all I can say is I hope.
Speaker 6: I just hope that's because they have positive information about
a connection and that they don't want to release it yet,
but they're going to plan on release it soon. I
just hope that's the reason, because if it's not, you know,
it's just irresponsible, because we do want to find out
if they're connected, and if people are out there and
have information that we'd connect it to keep call and
Cassandra Haley's murders, then they should be calling for people
to do that. And it's just it's ridiculous to not
call for people to do that when we know that
he was a prime suspect in that very double homicide,
and the.
Speaker 7: Murders were two years apart. We're not talking about in
different parts of the world, different countries. We're talking about
in the same geographic region. And that's what's staggering to
me that it makes me feel uncomfortable that they're hiding things.
And if you say no, I'm not going to talk
about it, you can't be caught later on. You can't
be caught out. So that's how I felt about it.
And I hope Jim in good faith that they're holding
things back because it's a key part of the investigation.
I really hope that's true. But let's not forget this
guy is deceased. This isn't about anything other than this
guy's dead. Let's properly timeline him. And they should be
trying to create trust and confidence in the public that
we're trying to do our job and we need your help.
And it should just be straight up clear what's required,
and they should be saying the truth. I don't understand
why they would hold that back. And this geographic area Bill,
when we've spoken before, you said that his house was
in where he died, was in his house in Lancaster County.
I think you mentioned that it was an hour and
fifteen minutes away from the Colonial Parkway murders. But I
wonder what that would be by boat. I assume you
were thinking by car or were you thinking by boat?
And could would it be easily accessible by boat?
Speaker 2: It would still be a lengthy bit of travel by boat.
We understand now that Wilmer lived on his boat and
docked it in Gloucester and Hampton, Virginia, And as Kristen
can tell you, these places are minutes away, so he'd
come down for the oystering season and he would park
his boat and then work that area. That's actually something
Virginia State Police and FBI are looking for information if
anyone docked their boat near his.
Speaker 5: So that boat would be the Denny D. E.
Speaker 6: N I. Wade Wade and it's a wooden boat, so
it would be distinctive, as well as his car, which
is the nineteen sixty six Dodge Fargo pickup truck that's
blue green in color with the license plate em raw.
Anybody who was around that area at that time or
on the water at that time, who interacted with him
in any way, even if it was totally insignificant in
your mind, it may be important putting him in a
particular place at a particular time, giving him access to
these victims that we know were murdered in cases that
are still unresolved.
Speaker 7: It's worth al say, just playing out that he was married,
he had two children and It's always a lot of
my work has been centered around interviewing the ex wives
and understanding from the partners and ex wives, the children,
those who know that individual the best they can really
add information into the case. And it really concerned me
when I heard from Kerry Rawson, who is the daughter
of Denis Raider. Jim when I was at the FBI,
spent a lot of time talking to the agents involved
in the Denis Raider case. People know him by his
horrible monika, which I'm not going to use. But Kerry,
when I interviewed her, told me so much about what
was going on behind closed doors. And actually she told
me the FBI never interviewed her about what was happening
in terms of the domestic violence, the coercive control, all
that they were victims too. And I remember distinctly asking
the agents at the time, does he have a history
of domestic violence? What was going on in terms of
his wife, his children? And they said there was no abuse,
and Kerry couldn't believe it. That's what I was told.
So again, we now know about coercive control. We now
know these are power and control related crimes, and so
it's really important that I hope law enforcement are speaking
to the family in order to find out more about
the timeline, specifically places Kerry told me all this information
about Dennis Raider of places she went with him, who
now she thinks he was stalking other victims. That intelligence
and information is so important in the timeline, So it
is worth saying there may be other girlfriends ex girlfriends
that we don't know about, but they're really important of
building a picture of this individual because I have no
doubt he would be prolific, absolutely prolific, because of the
fantasy base of his levels of perpetration. And I know
it's not just him either, it's his brother too, And
there are some very key pieces of intelligence about Keith Wilmer,
the brother. So again there's been some confusion in some
cases about which brother might be involved. Therefore, if you
know anything about Keith Wilmer or Alan Wade Wilmer Senior,
then please do make sure you forward that information to
law enforcement.
Speaker 4: Jim and Laura. While I have you here, I did
want to ask about an important, interesting piece of information
that sac Brian Dugan put forward at the end of
his time at the podium. He did give all of
the information that they are looking for. With regard to
Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, he also gave all of the
tip line numbers, but he ended with an interesting coda,
and I wanted to get your thought on it, so
I'm going to quote from sac Dugan here. He said,
we recognize relationships and loyalties change over time as to
people and their perspectives. There are occasions where people who
may have had knowledge of a crime do not feel
comfortable coming forward with information. This may have been due
to relationships with the persons involved, or out of concer
learned for their own safety, reputation, or standing amongst friends.
Even though mister Wilmer is deceased, we want you to
know it is not too late to come forward. Who
might he be speaking to. Would that be the brother,
the ex wife?
Speaker 7: Who is this so?
Speaker 6: Yeah, family members, relatives, the people that he was in
a relationship with, people who live next door to him
who might have been afraid of him, people who worked
with him, people who just interacted with him socially, everybody.
What they're trying to say is, look back in the day,
maybe you had some kind of loyalty to him. He's
not around it anymore, and we know he is a
serial killer, so please come forward. That's I think what
they're trying to say there. And I think it's really
important that anybody out there, especially people who were related
to him, who could help, would be doing the world
a great service. And if they don't help, they'd be
won't doing the world a great disservice.
Speaker 5: And the victims and their families.
Speaker 7: And perpetrates is like him, a frightening They are terrifying,
and they terrify and terrorize the people in their intimate
lives too. So oftentimes when someone stays quiet, it's out
of fear. Actually, sometimes it might be loyalty, yes, but
oftentimes I see with domestic violence and coercive control, it's fear.
And then unfortunately it gets into being concerned about judgment.
Why didn't you come forward earlier, and then feeling like
you might be blamed or judged? And I always say,
absolutely not. Why would you be blamed or judged? It's
not your actions. You won't be held responsible for somebody
else's behavior. And I say that very clearly because oftentimes
people do hold women accountable for men's behavior. This is
a very prolific and dangerous man, and I have no
doubt he would have used coercive tactics on other people
around him, and he would have been probably quite frightening
to be around. But maybe he has charm too, and
the charm ability we mustn't overlook that either. So yes,
I would imagine family members do know some things. They
may not know all of it. And it sounds like
he died a lonely death in a house on his
own where no one's saying, oh, we miss him, or
he didn't turn up for X or why. So it
sounds like there's some distancing in the family there. I
don't know why, but that could be part of the
story here.
Speaker 2: Kristin, do you mind giving that tip information before we go?
Speaker 4: Absolutely, for anyone who has tips regarding Alan Wade Wilmers Senior,
please call one eight hundred car FBI. You can submit
a tip online at tips dot FBI dot gov. You
can also contact the Virginia State Police via email at
Questions at VSP dot Virginia dot.
Speaker 2: Gov and we'll include that information in our show notes
for Mind Over Murder.
Speaker 4: Jim and Laura, it has been a real pleasure and
a privilege having you here on Mind Over Murder. Thank
you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 7: Thank you, yeah, thank you for your time. And I
hope that there's more good news to come because this
is your life, Bill, and I know you want your
sister's case. I'm Becky's all of them resolved, and I
feel that the answers are there, So I hope next
time we talk there be better news for you as well.
And I am sorry about the way that you've been
treated because even now you're trying to get information to
help law enforcement, and I applaud you for that.
Speaker 4: So thank you, thank you, thanks so much for listening
to this episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see you
next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoir.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.
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Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. To mind over murder,