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<v Speaker 1>I'm very excited right now to have my next guest

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<v Speaker 1>with me. He is the Associate dean and professor of

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<v Speaker 1>Government at Haillsdale College's DC campus. They have a campus

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<v Speaker 1>in Washington, DC, and doctor Matthew Mehan.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Mandy.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's talk about something that is a big, big,

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<v Speaker 1>big fear of those on the left and for some

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<v Speaker 1>on the right, a big big hope. What are we

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<v Speaker 1>looking at when it comes to the Department of Justice.

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<v Speaker 1>Pam Bondy just got grilled pretty hard by Democrats who

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to ensure that she would not weaponize the Department

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<v Speaker 1>of Justice. And I got to say, they have cajones

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<v Speaker 1>the size of cantalopes, because we all know what's happened

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<v Speaker 1>over the last four years with the Department of Justice.

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<v Speaker 1>But I want a functioning, fair minded Department of Justice.

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<v Speaker 1>How do we reform the DOJ without retribution from the DOJ?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean the short answer is very carefully.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's a real trick to be able to

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<v Speaker 3>both go after some of these law fair antics while

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<v Speaker 3>also keeping the proper understanding and the appearance so that

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<v Speaker 3>people understand that justice isn't about going after one's political enemies.

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<v Speaker 3>I think the problem is the left, the Dems in

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<v Speaker 3>a certain sense, have actually decided to hide within a

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<v Speaker 3>kind of thicket of thorns where they do bad things,

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<v Speaker 3>but they do them very overtly politically, so that when

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<v Speaker 3>you go after them, they say, oh, you're being political,

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<v Speaker 3>so tempting the good guys to destroy justice while trying

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<v Speaker 3>to do it. And so I think we have to

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<v Speaker 3>do it very carefully, and I think there's a kind

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<v Speaker 3>of order or procedure that we need to go about

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<v Speaker 3>in order to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's start with personnel, because I think that in

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<v Speaker 1>my view, and I'm not, you know, intimately involved with

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<v Speaker 1>the upper echelons of the Department of Justice, but there

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<v Speaker 1>seems to be some people at the top that fill

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<v Speaker 1>us sophocally may need to go.

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<v Speaker 2>How do you do that without.

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<v Speaker 1>Those accusations of he's purging, he's purging political enemies. How

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<v Speaker 1>do you change or make any personnel changes without to

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<v Speaker 1>your point, them saying, oh, you're stacking it with loyalists

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<v Speaker 1>or whatever.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I think that in one sense, there's easy ways

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<v Speaker 3>to do to do that. With regard to the civil service,

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<v Speaker 3>looking at people who've done what they ought to have

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<v Speaker 3>done or not done, what they have to be done.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think that one of the major kind of

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<v Speaker 3>well lea back up.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't want show me the man and.

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<v Speaker 3>I'll show you the crime, stalinists, purges, right. What you

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<v Speaker 3>do want is show me the crime, and oh, look,

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<v Speaker 3>here are the here's the man. Here are these people

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<v Speaker 3>that violated a really important law and therefore need to go.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think that's the way to go forward. And

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<v Speaker 3>so I think Trump should with Pam BONDI say, you

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<v Speaker 3>know what we're going to do. We're going to go

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<v Speaker 3>after anyone who perjured themselves or suborned perjury, or lied

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<v Speaker 3>to the courts, to the Congress, to their superiors. And

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<v Speaker 3>where you can find someone who broke good faith with

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<v Speaker 3>others in a egregious way. I mean, not every little

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<v Speaker 3>thing needs to be enforced. Obviously, there's prosecutorial discretion. I

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<v Speaker 3>think that's going to just happen. Perforce Pampondi's an experienced person,

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<v Speaker 3>so as Trump. But what is the thing you go after?

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<v Speaker 3>I think you go after they're breaking faith. And why

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<v Speaker 3>that is, I think is because that protects you from

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<v Speaker 3>any kind of understanding of oh, you're just doing this

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<v Speaker 3>against your political enemies, because when you attack, rather persecute

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<v Speaker 3>and try to purge that crime, the reason you try

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<v Speaker 3>to purge it is we have to be friends. We

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<v Speaker 3>have to be a nation again. We have to know

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<v Speaker 3>that the thing you say is the truth, so that

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<v Speaker 3>we can know what each other thinks, know what the

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<v Speaker 3>other is doing, and then we can agree to disagree.

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<v Speaker 3>Sometimes we can win in those elections, but we can

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<v Speaker 3>trust one another that our word is our bond.

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<v Speaker 2>Pam Bondi said that in her testimony before Congress, and it's.

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<v Speaker 3>Actually in the words of the oath of office that

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<v Speaker 3>the Donald Trump and Jade Vance just took that they're

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<v Speaker 3>going to do this in good faith without mental reservation.

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<v Speaker 3>Meaning if I speak under oath, or if I speak

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<v Speaker 3>before Congress or before a phi as a judge, or

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<v Speaker 3>if I speak to the press about someone's reputation, I'm

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<v Speaker 3>telling the truth. And if they're not, if they're a

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<v Speaker 3>liar and worse, and I think these is where you start.

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<v Speaker 3>If they're a perjurer, that's where you have to go,

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<v Speaker 3>because I think that will actually get rid of a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of the worst malefactors. Because it's one thing to

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<v Speaker 3>say I have a bad ideology. It's another thing to

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<v Speaker 3>say I have a bad ideology that defends and upholds

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<v Speaker 3>lying to my fellow Americans and to Congress and to

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<v Speaker 3>courts and to the press. That's I don't care what

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<v Speaker 3>your ideology is. We can't have a democratic republic if

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<v Speaker 3>you're doing that.

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<v Speaker 1>So let me ask you about the Biden pardons on

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<v Speaker 1>the last day in office, because the notion of accountability

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm gonna use the j six pardons that just

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<v Speaker 1>came out yesterday. Donald Trump partons everybody from the January

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<v Speaker 1>sixth situation. Doesn't matter what they did, doesn't matter who

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<v Speaker 1>they hurt, they were all pardoned. I said earlier on

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<v Speaker 1>the show. I don't necessarily know if everybody gets pardoned,

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<v Speaker 1>had Biden not used his pardons to preemptively pardon all

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<v Speaker 1>these people, something that Democrats have railed against in the

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<v Speaker 1>past when they thought.

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<v Speaker 2>Trump was going to do it.

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<v Speaker 1>Which is kind of funny, But how does all this

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<v Speaker 1>this is kind of new. We're in uncharted territory a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit, this pardon versus pardon thing, what is this?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So I do think that if we're talking about

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<v Speaker 3>the sort of going after one's political enemies. That's almost

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<v Speaker 3>a different thing pardoning someone you think is a political ally,

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<v Speaker 3>and in one sense the j six pardons, I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>the punishment has been the process for a lot of them.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, anyone who's being released now has been in

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<v Speaker 3>prison for a long while, I think commensurate with the riot. Actually,

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<v Speaker 3>ideally you'd want them to be sorry for the things

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<v Speaker 3>they did wrong, and I think that's true of many

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<v Speaker 3>of the Jay sixers who did something wrong. I've heard

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of apologies about the parts that they shouldn't

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<v Speaker 3>have done. But the ones who are welcomed in by

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<v Speaker 3>a cop and said, you know, I don't like, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't respect what you're doing, but I understand it, or

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<v Speaker 3>something like that, or I don't like what you're doing,

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<v Speaker 3>but I respect it like that, that's a person who

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<v Speaker 3>thinks they're being let in by.

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<v Speaker 2>The authorities, right into the people's house, right.

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<v Speaker 3>That's so it's very complicated, and so the blank cot pardon,

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<v Speaker 3>I understand it.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't. I would rather be parsed out more easily.

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<v Speaker 2>But I get the symbolism.

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<v Speaker 3>With regard to what Biden's doing, that's a masterclass and

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<v Speaker 3>how to abuse the plenary power of clemency, right, those

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<v Speaker 3>blanket pardons for eleven years, those pregnant eleven years and

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<v Speaker 3>protecting Fauci and others like that, stuff's gross and wrong

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<v Speaker 3>because which you're supposed to do is actually someone should

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<v Speaker 3>either have been punished, right and then you show mercy,

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<v Speaker 3>or if they're about to be punished, the only way

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<v Speaker 3>you can let them off is if they are contrite,

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<v Speaker 3>they're actually sorry.

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<v Speaker 2>And say, look, I screwed up.

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<v Speaker 3>And the reason why that's the point is back to

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<v Speaker 3>that perjury question of how do you actually have friendship

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<v Speaker 3>and politics again as opposed to this creepy sort of

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<v Speaker 3>cold civil war where the long knives are out and

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<v Speaker 3>it's law fair and lying and destruction of person, property

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<v Speaker 3>and reputation.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. The way to go.

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<v Speaker 3>Back to that is that you actually are honest. Hey,

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<v Speaker 3>I want clemency, I want to be pardoned.

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<v Speaker 2>But I screwed up. I lied, I did ax, I

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<v Speaker 2>did why it was not right.

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<v Speaker 3>I am sorry, and I would like to come back

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<v Speaker 3>in to a relationship with the political community.

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<v Speaker 2>I think you have to do that. And so.

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<v Speaker 3>A real clemency is there's some strictness or there's already

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<v Speaker 3>prior punishment. I think with Jay six, you have prior punishment,

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<v Speaker 3>but with Biden you have neither. Nobody's been punished. It's

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<v Speaker 3>all preemptive, a lot of it right or mealy mouthed,

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<v Speaker 3>and nobody's sorry because there's no strictness. So you've got

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<v Speaker 3>to put justice first, then mercy can follow. And I

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<v Speaker 3>think that's the way Trump should and Pam BONDI should

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<v Speaker 3>be looking at this too. Is be very strict on

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<v Speaker 3>some of these high level lawfare perjurers and deceivers. And

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<v Speaker 3>then once the punishments have been assembled, the prosecution has

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<v Speaker 3>been successfully demonstrated beyond this jedile with doubt, then you

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<v Speaker 3>can open the door to clemency and say are you

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<v Speaker 3>sorry for what you've done?

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<v Speaker 2>Then maybe you can get your jail get out of

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<v Speaker 2>jail free card.

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<v Speaker 3>But first you have to be honest and you have

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<v Speaker 3>this much good faith which is a lie because you've

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<v Speaker 3>been a liar. Right, we're going to take you down

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<v Speaker 3>a negative four and if you want to come back

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<v Speaker 3>to zero and just be a citizen again, and you

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<v Speaker 3>gotta say sorry, and then we let you out.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we don't want it. We don't want our

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<v Speaker 2>enemies to.

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<v Speaker 3>Be locked up and bloodthirsty revenge right and and sort

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<v Speaker 3>of snakes in the bed Roman Empire style like killing

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<v Speaker 3>emperors and things. We want justice and friendship again and

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<v Speaker 3>equality under the law, and I think you have to

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<v Speaker 3>go after these sort of high level things that threaten

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<v Speaker 3>honesty and integrity even between people who disagree. And that's

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<v Speaker 3>why I think perjury is the top of the list.

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<v Speaker 3>Subordination of perjury, meddling with documents, that sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I agree with you.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's a there's very shades of like post

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<v Speaker 1>Civil War reconstruction in what you're saying. It's it's that

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<v Speaker 1>if we if we handle this the wrong way, we

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<v Speaker 1>just create more animosity. But I think every American wants

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<v Speaker 1>to know that if the FBI comes knocking on our door,

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to be treated fairly and that there isn't

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<v Speaker 1>this two tiered system of justice that we've seen. So

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<v Speaker 1>what are the chances that that, you know, some high

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<v Speaker 1>level people will be held accountable, do you think in

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<v Speaker 1>some way before they ask for clemency or I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>because I think that for me as a citizen, I

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<v Speaker 1>want to know that that two tiered system of justice

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<v Speaker 1>has been dismantled because that concerns me greatly, It truly does.

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<v Speaker 3>My friend Matt Kittle made the point the other day

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<v Speaker 3>in a similar conversation we were having, saying, there's no

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<v Speaker 3>two tiered system. Really, it's just justice or injustice, right,

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<v Speaker 3>Like some people are just being treated very badly.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. So yeah, I agree, it's an intolerable thing to

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<v Speaker 2>have that two tiers. The I do. I do think

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<v Speaker 2>that that part of.

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<v Speaker 3>What needs to happen is is that you have to

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<v Speaker 3>lay out strictness first and mercy will come as a

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<v Speaker 3>kind of vision for people.

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<v Speaker 2>But with there's two temptations.

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<v Speaker 3>One is the bloodthirsty, go too hard right, and then

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<v Speaker 3>you get the Trump administration looks like they're just continuing

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<v Speaker 3>the cycle, the sort of carousel of death that destroys

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<v Speaker 3>the republic, reprisals, law fair, go after your enemies. The

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<v Speaker 3>other temptation is the sort of false honor of nope,

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<v Speaker 3>forgive and forget, just move on, right, Because that's actually

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<v Speaker 3>they've been too bad. It is too systemically corruptly grotesque.

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<v Speaker 2>There have to be repercussions.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think Trump is in a probably a good

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<v Speaker 3>place to actually take some high.

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<v Speaker 2>Level people to task, right.

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<v Speaker 3>But I think that he's also hopefully and he's made

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<v Speaker 3>gestures and noise to this to this effect. So I'm

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<v Speaker 3>very hopeful that he can and will sort of thread

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<v Speaker 3>this needle very carefully, but also open up the door

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<v Speaker 3>to you might be my political enemy right now, and

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<v Speaker 3>you're also a violator of the law, and so you're

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<v Speaker 3>going to be punished. But if you can make friends

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<v Speaker 3>with the American people, with me and with the law again,

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<v Speaker 3>clemency is yours and we can go back to zero

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<v Speaker 3>and have a handshake.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that you have to give people that

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<v Speaker 2>whole arc because if.

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<v Speaker 3>You're just after them to punish them and they don't

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<v Speaker 3>see that you have strictness here, because they have to

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<v Speaker 3>stop doing this to everybody, right, And you punish people

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<v Speaker 3>at the time so that they stop meddling with people

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<v Speaker 3>at the bottom.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>So you're gonna go after some big fish, I think, right,

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<v Speaker 3>so that the littler fish know that they won't.

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<v Speaker 2>Be protected by big fish, right.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think that will solve the citizens being mistreated

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<v Speaker 3>by the FBI or anybody else by doing that. But

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<v Speaker 3>then there has to be this vision of no, no, no,

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<v Speaker 3>we actually want restoration of peace, amity, concord, citizens, friendship,

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<v Speaker 3>good faith. It's not just justice and punishment that's gonna

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<v Speaker 3>come right, but that can be ameliorated if you are contrite,

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<v Speaker 3>forthright about what you did wrong and show a firm

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<v Speaker 3>purpose of amendment that you won't do this anymore. And

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<v Speaker 3>then the door of mercy is open. But people too

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<v Speaker 3>often flip it. They're too merciful at the beginning, so

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<v Speaker 3>there's no justice. It's just fake forgiveness, and everyone just

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<v Speaker 3>goes about doing bad things in the next administration.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that I love that. I would love it

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<v Speaker 1>if that was the way things went down, but I

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<v Speaker 1>think that would ultimately be really unsatisfying to at least

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<v Speaker 1>a section of Trump supporters who are tired of seeing

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<v Speaker 1>Republicans roll over on this stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>To your point earlier, and I don't think they're wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>I do think Republicans have jumped to forgiveness too quickly

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<v Speaker 1>without holding people accountable. But that being said, I would

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<v Speaker 1>love it if we could do this, And then at

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<v Speaker 1>that point, you know, I was raised in the South,

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<v Speaker 1>and whenever I would get start acting like an idiot

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<v Speaker 1>right and just act the fool, my grandmother would look

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<v Speaker 1>at me and say you were raised better than that, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And I kind of feel like I want to say

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<v Speaker 1>that to the party, like we were raised better than that.

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<v Speaker 1>We can't control what if somebody else does, but if

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<v Speaker 1>we can just hold someone accountable and then if they

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<v Speaker 1>deserve it, give them grace. To me, that would be

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<v Speaker 1>the best possible outcome from your lips to God's ears.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I agree, I think that's right.

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<v Speaker 3>I also think, though, don't forget, some of these people

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<v Speaker 3>are recalcitrate liars, and they will not ask for clemency

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<v Speaker 3>on the proper grounds.

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<v Speaker 2>And if they don't, it shouldn't be granted them.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think there will be some satisfaction because some

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<v Speaker 3>of these people will try to pretend to be martyrs

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<v Speaker 3>and congratulations, you're a fake prisoned, imprisoned martyr under your

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<v Speaker 3>own lying garbage, you know, gaslighting, like good for you.

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<v Speaker 3>Like they'll I think they'll they'll be a pound of

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<v Speaker 3>flesh regardless, because some people really do need to go

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<v Speaker 3>to prison if they're so vicious that they cannot break

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<v Speaker 3>out of you know, the shell or the mode they're

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<v Speaker 3>in of lined everyone.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think it'll be a little of everything.

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<v Speaker 3>But I also think I think the American people, and

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<v Speaker 3>I think MAGA, and I think the Republican Party, and

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<v Speaker 3>I think a lot of people who've even been abused,

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<v Speaker 3>they do have the common sense of the American way,

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<v Speaker 3>which is right, you can't get everything you want in

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<v Speaker 3>the life, right, and so you better get what you should.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think this path forward is something like what

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<v Speaker 3>we should do, even if it's not everything that we

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<v Speaker 3>might want, because it's not until heaven when God will

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<v Speaker 3>wipe away every tier right and every justice will be

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<v Speaker 3>done and every wrong will be righted. And I think

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<v Speaker 3>you know, it's the Marxist to try to make a

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<v Speaker 3>heaven on earth, and that's not what we do.

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<v Speaker 1>Amen to that. Associate Dean and professor of Government at

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<v Speaker 1>Hillsdale College in Washington, d C. They have two campuses,

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<v Speaker 1>one in Michigan, one in Washington, d C. I really

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<v Speaker 1>appreciate your time at Thank you for coming on the show,

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<v Speaker 1>and hopefully we can revisit in a year or maybe

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit shorter and see how we've done with

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<v Speaker 1>our prognostication about this. We can regroup and see what's

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<v Speaker 1>actually happened. I appreciate your time today.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, No, happy to report from our forward Operating base

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<v Speaker 2>in d C