Speaker 1: This is Doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to k
Speaker 1: I AM six forty, the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show on
Speaker 1: demand on the iHeartRadio app KFI AM six forty.
Speaker 2: You have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you.
Speaker 1: This is the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show. If you are
Speaker 1: new to my show, I'm a psychology professor at cal
Speaker 1: State Channel Islands, but my hobby is I am obsessed
Speaker 1: with the research. I know sounds nerdy on the science
Speaker 1: of love. I've written three books on relationships. My dissertation
Speaker 1: was on attachment theory. If you don't know what attachment
Speaker 1: theory is, you're going to hear about it in today's show.
Speaker 2: And you know I'm obsessed with all.
Speaker 1: The news and mental health and how we relate to
Speaker 1: each other. Coming up, let's see why gen Z is
Speaker 1: drinking less. Oh, why submarining is replacing ghosting in dating relationships?
Speaker 2: Producer Kayla, did you know what submarining is? I do not. Okay,
Speaker 2: You're gonna hear.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to give you the worst piece of
Speaker 1: relationship advice that I've ever heard, and I'm going to
Speaker 1: debunk it. Let me say hello to everybody. Heather how
Speaker 1: you doing. Oh, Heather's she's not there.
Speaker 2: She ran away. She ran away.
Speaker 1: It happens, Raoul, are you here, Yes, I'm oh, good,
Speaker 1: good good. When you were in college, did you drink much?
Speaker 1: Was beer your thing?
Speaker 2: You know what it was?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, we all had pubs. I worked in the college pub.
Speaker 1: That's how I could get to know people. I was
Speaker 1: very proud of myself. It built my shoulders. I could
Speaker 1: carry six pictures of beer at once, three in each hand.
Speaker 1: They were actually designed to sort of hook into each other,
Speaker 1: so it was like, you know, anyway, apparently gen Z. Now,
Speaker 1: what are our years for gen Z again? Nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: eight to all the two thousands, early two thousands. I
Speaker 1: know both my kids are in it, one of my
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven to twenty twelve.
Speaker 2: There you go.
Speaker 1: So one of my daughters were born in ninety eight
Speaker 1: and the other two thousand and three, So I guess
Speaker 1: they're technically both gen Z. New research points to the
Speaker 1: fact that college aged kids are not drinking as much
Speaker 1: as they used to. You know their reputation. You've heard
Speaker 1: of the rowdy frat house parties, but it's just not
Speaker 1: happening anymore. They're knocking back far less beer and booze
Speaker 1: than previous generations. And according to researchers, this isn't just
Speaker 1: a random blip in the numbers. In fact, this has
Speaker 1: been content This number of less drinking less drinking has
Speaker 1: continued to go down for the last two decades. A
Speaker 1: study published in the last couple of years says that
Speaker 1: abstinence is increasing. Complete abstinence like not even teetolling, like
Speaker 1: just never touching it. It's it's continuing to increase.
Speaker 2: With gen Z.
Speaker 1: Back in twenty eighteen, twenty eight percent of college students
Speaker 1: reported that they completely abstained from alcohol. Two thousand and two,
Speaker 1: the number was only twenty percent, so already it went
Speaker 1: up by eight percent.
Speaker 2: Young adults who aren't in college, the working young adults.
Speaker 1: Now, I would think high school educated young adults out
Speaker 1: there working can ford more alcohol, maybe have more free time,
Speaker 1: they don't have to be up all night studying, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And Nope, the research says the opposite. There's actually more
Speaker 1: of them. Thirty percent of this group reporting that they
Speaker 1: never drink beer, wine, or spirits. You know how they
Speaker 1: collected the data, which is very funny. Besides self report
Speaker 1: studies and self report studies are notoriously a little loose, right,
Speaker 1: because people lie on these kinds of things all the time,
Speaker 1: especially self report studies on sexuality promise you field with lives.
Speaker 1: So what they did is they looked at alcohol sales
Speaker 1: during concerts at big events, and they found that alcohol
Speaker 1: sales have been significantly dropping in the last few years.
Speaker 1: A little side note for bands that are like old
Speaker 1: rockers and you know that boomers go to those alcohol
Speaker 1: bills have been going up. There actually is a thing
Speaker 1: called late onset alcoholism.
Speaker 2: Did you know that?
Speaker 1: Because when you don't have to get up to go
Speaker 1: to work every morning and every night it's a party,
Speaker 1: It's like, why not have a drink? I can just
Speaker 1: sleep in if I drink too much whatever. And then
Speaker 1: sometimes like one time, I'm not saying it's me and
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's regular. But one time I was
Speaker 1: alone at my farm and I decided I wanted to
Speaker 1: design the perfect skinny, spicy margarita.
Speaker 2: Did I tell you the story before, Caleb? But I
Speaker 2: couldn't find any firewater.
Speaker 1: I think you may have mentioned it, but I was
Speaker 1: thinking a bar, you get this stuff called firewater that makes.
Speaker 2: It Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, you were saying I.
Speaker 1: Couldn't figure out how to do it, so I just
Speaker 1: soaked dried chili peppers in water for the while. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know I had to taste test it with
Speaker 1: a number of versions. I thought you did the spicy
Speaker 1: one because you couldn't drink as much because it burned.
Speaker 2: To us you were fighting through it.
Speaker 1: I did need to add more spice because I definitely
Speaker 1: overserved myself that night. I woke up with a head
Speaker 1: of going what did I do? I was alone in
Speaker 1: my house and I wake up with a hangover. This
Speaker 1: is a problem. Okay, so late onset alcoholism is a thing.
Speaker 1: It's not gonna happen to me. But just saying, all right,
Speaker 1: So the researchers back to gen Z. Not drinking researchers
Speaker 1: speculate there are three big reasons why they haven't been
Speaker 1: drinking so much. Apparently, young people have an increase in
Speaker 1: mental health awareness.
Speaker 2: Guess what.
Speaker 1: In today's world, people talk more openly about their depression,
Speaker 1: their anxiety, their mental health issues. They don't have to
Speaker 1: run to the bar or just get drunk and squelch
Speaker 1: their feelings. They can talk about it or go to
Speaker 1: their therapist or maybe they're taking prescription medications whatever, But
Speaker 1: there are other treatments for mental health, is what I'm
Speaker 1: trying to say than beer. The second thing is, in general,
Speaker 1: young people apparently are obsessed with living healthier lifestyles. The
Speaker 1: trend of clean living is embraced a lot by gen Z,
Speaker 1: which means that they're being careful about their eating and
Speaker 1: drinking habits. And then what I yes right from the beginning,
Speaker 1: because I know you're thinking it. You're thinking it as
Speaker 1: soon as I said, oh, those young people, they're drinking
Speaker 1: so much less alcohol. I know exactly what thought came
Speaker 1: into your head. Yes, increased cannabis use. They're ditching alcohol,
Speaker 1: but they're kind of replacing one drug with another. Still
Speaker 1: not good. Okay, still not good. Guys, can't be doing it.
Speaker 2: All right. When we come back, I want to talk.
Speaker 1: There's a reason why I have been obsessed with the
Speaker 1: science of love in my life. And you know, I
Speaker 1: think a lot of us go to graduate school in
Speaker 1: psychology because.
Speaker 2: We're trying to like heal ourselves.
Speaker 1: I mean, every class I was taking at the beginning
Speaker 1: wasn't to get a degree, It was to get information
Speaker 1: so I could take it on dates and figure things out.
Speaker 1: And honestly, like the first book I wrote, The Boyfriend Test,
Speaker 1: I hadn't gone to grad school at all. It was
Speaker 1: just like from my stomach I had the sense about boundary.
Speaker 1: It was a book about boundaries. The second one was
Speaker 1: called The Girlfriend Tests. I had a master's in psychology
Speaker 1: at that point. By the time I wrote my third book,
Speaker 1: The Thirty Day Love Detalks, I had a PhD in
Speaker 1: psychology and I had learned so much Like every class
Speaker 1: I took, I would like run to the world, going,
Speaker 1: everyone needs to hear this.
Speaker 2: This is amazing.
Speaker 1: They shouldn't just keep this as secrets for therapists that
Speaker 1: you pay all this money to. But I will honestly
Speaker 1: tell you that in all my years of education and
Speaker 1: my years of therapy, the thing that really happened is
Speaker 1: that I was able to finally heal from my own
Speaker 1: attachment injuries. A lot of people ask themselves, why is
Speaker 1: this person with that person, Why are they saying in
Speaker 1: that abusive relationship? Or why did they pick a person
Speaker 1: like that? Right? You know, love isn't rational. And when
Speaker 1: we come back, I'm going to tell you a story
Speaker 1: of a man. Maybe you see yourself in this man
Speaker 1: who is in the delusion of irrational love, so you
Speaker 1: can see how it plays out. You are listening to
Speaker 1: the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty.
Speaker 1: We are live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3: You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
Speaker 3: AM six forty.
Speaker 1: Love makes you crazy, Love makes you crazy.
Speaker 2: There's been research on this.
Speaker 1: Hey is doctor Wendy waalsher listen to the Doctor Wendy
Speaker 1: Walls Show. Literally, there's been research on this. Beyonce is right.
Speaker 1: When your brain gets assaulted with that cocktail of neuro
Speaker 1: hormones called lust, you are not making good decisions for yourself.
Speaker 1: That's why in our anthropological past we had the tribe
Speaker 1: pick the people for us. That's why arranged marriages last
Speaker 1: a whole lot longer than romantic ones. But there's another piece. Now,
Speaker 1: it's funny because my husband Julio.
Speaker 2: I'm just getting used to it. This is a month
Speaker 2: you know, I give I start to go book boy
Speaker 2: for husband.
Speaker 1: Husband Julio always says, you know, it's not rational, like
Speaker 1: why they do that.
Speaker 2: It's not logical, It doesn't make sense like a typical dude,
Speaker 2: not logical, not.
Speaker 1: Rational, and like, there is nothing rational about love. Love
Speaker 1: is not about finding happiness. Love is not about creating happiness.
Speaker 1: Love is about finding the familiar. Whatever happened in your
Speaker 1: early life, if you were fortunate enough, and when I
Speaker 1: say early, I mean really early, when you're preverbal, you
Speaker 1: didn't even store it as memories. You didn't have words
Speaker 1: to log some narrative in your head. You stored it
Speaker 1: as feelings in your bones. If it happened before the
Speaker 1: age of three, you don't remember it, but your body does.
Speaker 1: And things will happen in your adult romantic life. And
Speaker 1: if you had trauma, you will go right back to
Speaker 1: the scene of the crime. Someone tell your story. It
Speaker 1: was a few years ago. This man I knew, honestly,
Speaker 1: I thought he was crazy. I wasn't dating him.
Speaker 2: He was a friend.
Speaker 1: He was actually a friend of my friend at the time, right.
Speaker 1: But I remember hearing this story and just being like, what, so,
Speaker 1: here's what you should know about him. This man sadly
Speaker 1: his mother left when he was only three years old.
Speaker 1: And when I hear people say, oh, I'm so glad
Speaker 1: the bad thing happened, the divorce or whatever, and they're
Speaker 1: too young to remember. Hate that because the younger you
Speaker 1: are when the trauma or the loss happens, the harder
Speaker 1: it is to go through your history with a fine
Speaker 1: tooth comb with a therapist and try to figure out
Speaker 1: what happened right, because you don't remember it in a
Speaker 1: narrative way, but the feelings are still there. So he
Speaker 1: was raised by a hurt father and an aunt his
Speaker 1: father's sister, and he had a couple siblings, but he
Speaker 1: was the youngest, and so I noticed that he constantly
Speaker 1: dated women who would somehow abandon him in some way,
Speaker 1: or women who couldn't emotionally really connect, and he would
Speaker 1: do everything he could to try to get them to stay,
Speaker 1: spoil them whatever. Right, So he did finally meet his wife.
Speaker 1: He got married late in life. He was like in
Speaker 1: his late forties. But here's the easy thing. And I
Speaker 1: remember this. I remember this story so well that when
Speaker 1: he first met the woman who would be his wife,
Speaker 1: they had this speed bump early in their dating relationship.
Speaker 2: They dated for like three weeks.
Speaker 1: Like enough time to get close and probably knock boots
Speaker 1: and all those stuff, right, and then she flip and
Speaker 1: ghosted him. But way back then it wasn't called ghosting.
Speaker 1: It was like she just disappeared and she wasn't entering
Speaker 1: his calls or anything. Now, I want you to know,
Speaker 1: if you have abandonment issues because your mother disappeared or
Speaker 1: your father disabard or something happened early in life, you
Speaker 1: will actually be activated to pursue people who will abandon you.
Speaker 1: And often I say that the unconscious between two people
Speaker 1: does a little handshake, makes a little contract on that
Speaker 1: first date that says, Hey, you're gonna treat me like
Speaker 1: my critical mother.
Speaker 2: Cool, you're gonna treat me like my abandoning daddy. Great,
Speaker 2: it's on. So what kind of movies do you like?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: And then you're just talking small talk, but actually there's
Speaker 1: some big stuff happening underneath. So I remember this speed bump,
Speaker 1: and you remember this guy. He's friends with this girlfriend
Speaker 1: of mine, and she and I were saying, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: she's such a jerk. I can't believe she didn't. He
Speaker 1: was very sad. Anyway, like almost a year later, he
Speaker 1: runs into her at the dry cleaners. They happened to
Speaker 1: go to the same dry cleaners. Didn't know that, right,
Speaker 1: And she says, oh, hey, look, I'm so sorry that happened.
Speaker 1: I had some stuff going on in my life at
Speaker 1: that time, and when I met you, I knew you
Speaker 1: were like a solid person, You're like husband material. So
Speaker 1: would you give me another chance? So, of course, mister abandonment,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yah, of course. And uh I think
Speaker 1: she came over to house and they cook Thanksgiving dinner
Speaker 1: or whatever. Anyway, he started to spoil her, treated her
Speaker 1: like a queen, put her on a pedestal. You know why,
Speaker 1: because unconsciously he's a little three year old saying please mommy, stay, please,
Speaker 1: mommy stay right.
Speaker 2: And here's the thing.
Speaker 1: She didn't act greedy and didn't ask for a lot
Speaker 1: because she didn't have to. She had this weird emotional
Speaker 1: weapon apparently in her family of origin. When she was
Speaker 1: upset about something, she didn't get upset, She just got silent,
Speaker 1: did the silent treatment, dismissed, avoidant, didn't talk to him
Speaker 1: for like a weit living in the same house, married,
Speaker 1: and just him tiptoeing around like on eggshells. And they
Speaker 1: did come home and like buy her an expensive piece
Speaker 1: of jewelry. So eventually, a bunch of years into the marriage,
Speaker 1: she leaves him. Right now, he's devastated. He's so sad,
Speaker 1: he's ashamed. He doesn't even tell his closest buddies for
Speaker 1: like six months. Right, he just made excuses for why
Speaker 1: she couldn't come places or whatever, and then she had
Speaker 1: an attorney call. It gets over. Right, they haven't seen
Speaker 1: each other in months. It's over. But what does he do?
Speaker 1: He flies to Chicago, her hometown, to meet her, to
Speaker 1: go see her family, to Playcate, bought her mother gifts,
Speaker 1: told the dad how much he still loves the daughter
Speaker 1: also used religion. She used to use religion on him too,
Speaker 1: And he say, yes, you're right, I love you unconditionally,
Speaker 1: like Jesus said. But I want you to know this
Speaker 1: story isn't about his wife. It's not about her abandoning him.
Speaker 1: You can judge her all you want. It's about a
Speaker 1: hurt little boy who lost his mother. Eventually, he went
Speaker 1: to therapy. He spent a time in therapy. He used
Speaker 1: to say, oh, hey, go to therapist, cause you know
Speaker 1: what therapists always.
Speaker 2: Say, how does that make you feel?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: It feels terrible?
Speaker 1: Duh? Yeah, but you know what, therapy is not designed
Speaker 1: to make you happy. It's not designed to take terrible
Speaker 1: feelings away. It's designed to be your partner while you
Speaker 1: do the work working through those terrible feelings. Feeling I
Speaker 1: look when I was in therapy myself as a patient,
Speaker 1: I cried for weeks and months about stuff in my
Speaker 1: childhood till I got to a place where I could
Speaker 1: forgive my parents but also see them as human beings
Speaker 1: who you know, weren't given a parenting manual and use
Speaker 1: the best tools they had to do the best job
Speaker 1: they possibly could. I was able to have a healthy
Speaker 1: relationship with the memories of my childhood. Love is irrational.
Speaker 1: Love isn't about finding happiness. It's about finding the familiar.
Speaker 1: And if we had childhood trauma, we will go back
Speaker 1: to the scene of the crime in our adult romantic lives.
Speaker 1: And this is what my therapist always used to say
Speaker 1: to me. The only way out is through the pain.
Speaker 1: She used the metaphor of labor and delivery. When I
Speaker 1: was really pregnant, I said, I am so uncomfortable, I
Speaker 1: would take an exact don't I even cut this baby
Speaker 1: out right now? And she said, the only way out
Speaker 1: is through labor and pain. And it's the same with
Speaker 1: emotional growth. You got to labor through the tears to
Speaker 1: get to the place anyway. I hope this isn't your story.
Speaker 1: You may know somebody that this reminds you of. This
Speaker 1: is a very common situation. When we come back, I
Speaker 1: want to talk to all the single ladies, at least
Speaker 1: the single daters out there. I'm putting a gender on
Speaker 1: this one, sorry, because more often dudes are doing this.
Speaker 1: The difference between ghosting and submarining. You're listening to the
Speaker 1: Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty. We're
Speaker 1: live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3: You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
Speaker 3: AM six forty.
Speaker 1: KFI Am six forty, you have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you.
Speaker 1: This here is the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show. I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna lie to you. There's nothing more painful than being ghosted.
Speaker 1: And I am amazed at how many people in the
Speaker 1: earth early stages of dating decide they don't like somebody
Speaker 1: and literally disappear. They don't return texts, phone calls, They
Speaker 1: sometimes unfriend, unfollow, block, They literally digitally disappear, and sadly,
Speaker 1: sometimes it happens after the couple has had sex. So
Speaker 1: whoever's been ghosted feels so confused and at such a loss,
Speaker 1: like was it something I said?
Speaker 3: What did I?
Speaker 1: Do? You know?
Speaker 2: And there's no time to process it.
Speaker 1: So recently I was contacted by a reporter who said, well,
Speaker 1: there's a new thing going on now, doctor Wendy called submarining.
Speaker 1: It's a little like ghosting. So let me break it
Speaker 1: down for you. The difference between ghosting and submarining. Ghosting
Speaker 1: is very clear. It means that somebody suddenly does not
Speaker 1: respond to texts, phone calls, or dms. But the main
Speaker 1: thing is there's no obvious reason for the disappearance. And
Speaker 1: when the person who is I call the ghost ee
Speaker 1: gives some kind of plea for an explanation, maybe they
Speaker 1: send a text saying, hey, haven't heard of you?
Speaker 2: Are you okay?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Because you worry? Like I had abandonment issues.
Speaker 1: So if I was ever ghosted, there was only one
Speaker 1: reason why they didn't text me back. They were in
Speaker 1: a car accident and they were dead. They were in
Speaker 1: a hospital with their jaw wired shut and their hands broken, and.
Speaker 2: They couldn't tell.
Speaker 1: Literally, in my crazy brain, that's what I imagined, right, Uh,
Speaker 1: I couldn't be me. Also with ghosting, the ghost e
Speaker 1: may find themselves blocked from the ghost 's social media accounts,
Speaker 1: so they go to look to see.
Speaker 2: Well where are they look at their Instagram or their story.
Speaker 1: They're gone, right, and when you go someone, the behavior's
Speaker 1: pretty much permanent. Submarining is very similar. It's where somebody
Speaker 1: suddenly doesn't respond to text, phone calls, or dms, and
Speaker 1: there's no obvious reason for the disappearance. But often when
Speaker 1: you send that emotional plea for an explanation, you get
Speaker 1: this vague dismissive response, like, sorry, I've been swamped.
Speaker 2: Sorry I've been traveling. Oh so I've been under the weather.
Speaker 2: Just something right.
Speaker 1: I don't mean to put gender on it, by the way,
Speaker 1: but guys, you're really afraid of emotional confrontation, aren't you.
Speaker 1: You're afraid of women's feelings. So it's more often in
Speaker 1: heterosexual relationships that the dudes do it and the females
Speaker 1: are left hanging. But here's the difference between a submariner
Speaker 1: and a ghoster. Months later, even years. Sometimes the submariner
Speaker 1: sends a text and attempts to pick up where they
Speaker 1: left off, pretending.
Speaker 2: That nothing happened.
Speaker 1: They don't even they it's like nothing happened and they've
Speaker 1: picked it right.
Speaker 2: Has that ever happened to Kayla? I am a confronter.
Speaker 2: I am not going to not acknowledge this elephant in
Speaker 2: the room. Right what happened a few months ago? Why
Speaker 2: are you calling me right now? Yeah, that's the first
Speaker 2: thing I'll say to you. Good for you, Good for you.
Speaker 1: But so many people just pick up where they left
Speaker 1: off too, So here's what you need to You know,
Speaker 1: both ghosters and submariners tend to be people who have
Speaker 1: low emotional intelligence, or they have a fear of intimacy
Speaker 1: or both, or and probably very little empathy okay, because
Speaker 1: they're not thinking about the feelings of the others. Now.
Speaker 1: The biggest difference is that a ghoster wants to end
Speaker 1: the relationship and protect themselves from the discomfort of having
Speaker 1: to have a conversation with the submariner wants to put
Speaker 1: somebody on the back burner so they can reach out
Speaker 1: to them when they feel lonely, right when things aren't
Speaker 1: working out with their other new boos.
Speaker 2: Right, So why do they do it?
Speaker 1: Let's talk about evolutionary psychology, psychology, sociology. Evolutionary psychologists would
Speaker 1: say that almost all of us have some kind of
Speaker 1: backup mates. It is very, very common. Even people in loving,
Speaker 1: committed relationships might have somebody in mind, you know, like
Speaker 1: they might reach out to if things don't work out
Speaker 1: with their current partner. And there's actually other reason. I
Speaker 1: think it was done by David Buss at the University
Speaker 1: of Texas who said that having backup mats is actually
Speaker 1: good for your mental health. So if you kind of
Speaker 1: know there's a fallback plan, what did a.
Speaker 2: Friend of mine call it?
Speaker 1: Once a pillow guy, you could fall back on a pillow,
Speaker 1: a soft landing somewhere. Okay, So if you are the
Speaker 1: backup mate, though, it never feels good, never ever ever
Speaker 1: feels good, But evolutionary psychologists say it's a phenomenon. So
Speaker 1: the submariners may be turning you into a backup mate.
Speaker 1: Now let's talk about psychology early life attachment theory. Like
Speaker 1: we were talking about in the last segment, submariners, instead
Speaker 1: of having an anxious attachment style, might have an avoidant
Speaker 1: attachment style. So they have this ability to say and
Speaker 1: do whatever they need to to obtain sex as basic biology,
Speaker 1: but they're terrified of emotional intimacy, so Their whole mo
Speaker 1: is a dash in and out of relationships, always being
Speaker 1: careful not to get too close. They tend to have
Speaker 1: very little insight into their own feelings, and since they're
Speaker 1: not even aware of what they're feeling, they have less
Speaker 1: empathy for the feelings of others. They just don't understand emotions.
Speaker 1: They don't know how to express them, and so therefore
Speaker 1: they're not deliberately trying to torment somebody. They don't even
Speaker 1: understand that their behavior can be hurtful because they're so
Speaker 1: detached from their own feelings. They're independent to a fault, right,
Speaker 1: and they look at people who have strong emotions and
Speaker 1: think they're weak or they're confused, like, why are you
Speaker 1: feeling that way?
Speaker 2: I don't get it.
Speaker 1: Now, let's also talk about sociology. Relationships don't happen in
Speaker 1: a vacuum. They happen in a mating marketplace. And right
Speaker 1: now we have a high supply sexual economy. Sex is
Speaker 1: in such high supply that I'm sorry. High value men
Speaker 1: do not need to commit to any one woman. They
Speaker 1: play the odds game. They don't have a fertility window
Speaker 1: that's closing. They play the odds game. They keep a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of backup mates. They test women to just
Speaker 1: see which one is going to stay in their loose
Speaker 1: stable of connections. Now, obviously, when they reach out to Kayla,
Speaker 1: they're going to learn real quickly that they can't. She
Speaker 1: not going to be not going to be in a
Speaker 1: loose stable of connections. She is going to be like, uh,
Speaker 1: why are you calling me nout? What is this about.
Speaker 1: Also on the female side, we've got this over supply
Speaker 1: of successful females in the mating marketplace who are vying
Speaker 1: for the same small group of high value males. So
Speaker 1: they're really insecure and they will put up with submariners.
Speaker 1: Not Kayla, but other people would.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So here's what happens when there's an imbalance in the
Speaker 1: mating marketplace. In this case, what I mean are it's
Speaker 1: not that there are more women than men. They're just
Speaker 1: more educated, economically secure, and healthy females in the reproductive years.
Speaker 1: So women basically have to make one of four mating choices.
Speaker 1: They compete for a high status man and hope their
Speaker 1: fertility window doesn't close before they get a commitment. They
Speaker 1: stay in the game, right, they just figure out I
Speaker 1: am going to get him I'm going to get the
Speaker 1: alpha male, the famous guy. I'm going to get him
Speaker 1: to commit. I'm going to look I'm not going to
Speaker 1: be a bother. He's going to see that I'm not anxious.
Speaker 1: I'm going to look as hot as I can. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna spend most of my days at the gym. I'm
Speaker 1: going to make sure I don't surround myself with better
Speaker 1: looking women so I look the best all the time.
Speaker 1: They just do the female to female competition stuff. They
Speaker 1: are going to roll the dice on the roulette wheel
Speaker 1: of their fertility window and think I'm going to be
Speaker 1: the one he falls in love with. I'm going to
Speaker 1: learn some human mating strategy and I'm going to be
Speaker 1: good at it. Okay, So women in a high supply
Speaker 1: sexual economy have three other v When we come back,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go over them. And also, if you're
Speaker 1: being submarined, how you can respond. You are listening to
Speaker 1: the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty.
Speaker 1: We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3: You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
Speaker 3: AM six forty.
Speaker 1: I Am six forty. You have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you.
Speaker 1: This is the Doctor Wendy wallsh Show. This is the
Speaker 1: time of the show where I would like to welcome
Speaker 1: my TikTok audience.
Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, how are you?
Speaker 1: Give a shout out on there on TikTok, post a
Speaker 1: comment and tell me where you're watching from.
Speaker 2: It's really wonderful.
Speaker 1: To see where you guys are all over the country
Speaker 1: and the state and the world. Sometimes after this segment,
Speaker 1: I am going to begin taking your calls. If you
Speaker 1: have a relationship question, you are welcome to call in.
Speaker 1: I will announce the number at the end of Look Vegas, Wisconsin.
Speaker 1: They're from everywhere, Corpus Chrissy, Texas, Florida. Hi, everybody, Maryland,
Speaker 1: you're up late. You're up late. Go to bed. Oh, Kentucky.
Speaker 1: The whole East Coast is up there. Hello, San Diego.
Speaker 1: You can probably listen listen if you want to hear
Speaker 1: the whole show. So when callers call in, you just
Speaker 1: download the iHeartRadio app. You search Doctor Wendy Walsh and
Speaker 1: you can listen to both sides of it. But before
Speaker 1: I start taking your calls, we were just talking about something.
Speaker 1: We were talking about this new trend in dating of
Speaker 1: submarining instead of ghosting. Ghosting is where you know they
Speaker 1: just disappear and you'll never hear from them again. Submarining
Speaker 1: is they resurface, right, and they kind of keep you
Speaker 1: as a backup mate.
Speaker 2: And this can be.
Speaker 1: Particularly hard because right now we're in this high supply
Speaker 1: sexual economy where we have an oversupply of successful women.
Speaker 1: Men are less likely to commit, so women only have
Speaker 1: a few choices. Now, as I mentioned before the break,
Speaker 1: one choice that women have is to just play roulette
Speaker 1: with their fertility window if they want to become mothers.
Speaker 1: Not everybody becomes a mother. Twenty percent of women through
Speaker 1: the history of the human species don't biologically reproduce, and
Speaker 1: we needed that for our evolution that we would have
Speaker 1: important to alo parents.
Speaker 2: So all good there.
Speaker 1: But if you do have a fertility window that you
Speaker 1: would like to fulfill reproduction in, then some people just say,
Speaker 1: I am just going to be the hottest, smartest, richest
Speaker 1: girl out there and I'm going to get that guy
Speaker 1: to commit.
Speaker 2: Good luck to you. That's one choice.
Speaker 1: Now, The thing I more often suggest women should do
Speaker 1: is date a man that you might consider to be
Speaker 1: slightly lower status. Now, he's not really let me explain you. See,
Speaker 1: here's the bad thing about patriarchy. It's not only alive
Speaker 1: and well in the minds of men. It circles around
Speaker 1: in the minds of women. And so the more education
Speaker 1: and the more money a woman gets, the more she
Speaker 1: wants a malemate who's going to have even more. There's
Speaker 1: not enough of those dudes to go around. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you've been on a college campus in the
Speaker 1: last twenty years, the feminization of college campuses is real.
Speaker 1: For every two men that graduate college in America, there
Speaker 1: are three women. So if you think like I don't
Speaker 1: want to date down, I say to you, maybe your
Speaker 1: idea of a power man is a guy who can
Speaker 1: power a stroller. Okay, so that's the second choice. Date
Speaker 1: a slightly lower status man in your mind who adores you,
Speaker 1: because let me tell you, he's gonna adore you, he's
Speaker 1: gonna have he's gonna think he got the catch of
Speaker 1: a lifetime.
Speaker 2: He's gonna treat you so well.
Speaker 1: Now, the other thing that happens in our culture and
Speaker 1: is a choice that women can make no judgment here,
Speaker 1: is when there is an oversupply of successful females in
Speaker 1: a mating marketplace, The tribe, the culture, the society condones
Speaker 1: two other behaviors. One is polyamory and the other is
Speaker 1: same sex relationships. So women may choose to share a
Speaker 1: man right enter into a polyamorous relationship, or they might
Speaker 1: choose to date a high status woman. There are plenty
Speaker 1: of women out there who say, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: want to date down. I'd rather date and intellectually stimulating, bright, amazing,
Speaker 1: financially secure a woman, and our culture supports it. Right,
Speaker 1: you can do whatever you want, all right, So let
Speaker 1: me ask you this. Let's say somebody submarines you, means
Speaker 1: you dated for a while, you think they're absolutely great,
Speaker 1: then they friggin disappeared, and then they showed up again
Speaker 1: like nothing happened. They're just suddenly texting like everything's okay now.
Speaker 2: So how do you respond?
Speaker 1: And again I'm talking specifically here to heterosexual women, and
Speaker 1: the answer is, it depends on your age, and it
Speaker 1: depends on your relationship goals. If you are looking for
Speaker 1: a short term relationship, that means fun, a great old fun,
Speaker 1: little romp.
Speaker 2: More power to you. Just pick up where you left off.
Speaker 1: All good, because you may be part of his stable
Speaker 1: of loose connections that he keeps as backup mates. It's
Speaker 1: not like you're thinking he's going to suddenly go, you
Speaker 1: know what, because you gave me sex so easily, I'm
Speaker 1: going to commit to you. It's not gonna happen, all right.
Speaker 1: He's not gonna suddenly fall in love and want to
Speaker 1: get married. But if you want a short term relationship,
Speaker 1: go for it, but don't use it as a mating
Speaker 1: strategy to get a commitment.
Speaker 2: Of saying that.
Speaker 1: If you are in your twenties and you got some
Speaker 1: time and you want to learn experientially as I did,
Speaker 1: I had to learn everything through experience. Well then later
Speaker 1: textbooks to explain everything that went on, you can start
Speaker 1: the game up again, this time only reward him when
Speaker 1: he pays when he behaves well. And I don't mean
Speaker 1: manipulating a man. I don't mean withholding sex. I mean
Speaker 1: respecting yourself and assessing whether he's really hit his state
Speaker 1: of readiness or not. It's about you watching, analyzing, checking out.
Speaker 1: You're going, I am going to cross my legs until
Speaker 1: he minds me a ring. Now, it's not that that's
Speaker 1: what your grandmother in the fifties would say. I don't
Speaker 1: say that. I say, stoping out of Look what's going
Speaker 1: on here? Is he at his state of readiness. Now,
Speaker 1: if you are a woman, if you are over the
Speaker 1: age of thirty, if you want to become a biological parent,
Speaker 1: and you'd like to have maybe an involved father with
Speaker 1: that parent, then you have only one choice when a
Speaker 1: submariner resurfaces in your life, and that is to not
Speaker 1: respond at all. Keep your pretty little manicure off your iPhone,
Speaker 1: do not respond, and only respond to the people who
Speaker 1: give you the attention that you deserve. Now, I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna lie. The mating marketplace right now is particularly hard
Speaker 1: for women. It's also hard for men. On the break,
Speaker 1: producer Kayla and I were talking about how guys are saying, oh,
Speaker 1: women are just gold diggers and they want short term
Speaker 1: relationships and there are plenty of and men feel like
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with them if they want a committed relationship.
Speaker 1: The problem is everything's allowed right now in the mating marketplace.
Speaker 1: There was a day where it was like, well, if
Speaker 1: they don't want to get married, there's something wrong with them.
Speaker 2: Not anymore.
Speaker 1: You can choose to not be married in the whole
Speaker 1: lifespan or if he wants multiple partners, there's something wrong
Speaker 1: with him. No, you can choose to be polygamorous. Well,
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with them if they seem to change
Speaker 1: their sexual orientation. Nope, sexual orientation is fluid. Everything is acceptable.
Speaker 1: So the biggest problem when you're trying to find a
Speaker 1: mate is the fact that the mating marketplace is filled
Speaker 1: with everything, and you have to be the discerner. You've
Speaker 1: got to be the one to figure out right away
Speaker 1: what you want first of all, and not based on.
Speaker 2: You know, well they're cute, maybe I can make it work. No, like,
Speaker 2: where the goals? What's the future?
Speaker 1: Relationships aren't about having a bunch of hot dates. They're like,
Speaker 1: they all have to go somewhere. Right, where is this
Speaker 1: relationship going? You should be asking yourself. So I'm a
Speaker 1: big believer in practicing slow love, taking the time to
Speaker 1: assess somebody, not manipulate them.
Speaker 2: Assess them. If that's what you want, I'm okay.
Speaker 1: You go and have a short term relationship and you
Speaker 1: have fun, but be honest. Both sides need to be
Speaker 1: completely honest. You know, there was a study I quote
Speaker 1: a lot. I think it was in my book The
Speaker 1: Thirty Day Love Detoks called the passion Turning Point study,
Speaker 1: and it looked at the onset of first time sex
Speaker 1: in a new relationship and it asked the question was
Speaker 1: it a positive passion turning point or was it a
Speaker 1: negative passion turning point? And they found that what whither
Speaker 1: it was intended as a hookup or a long term relationship.
Speaker 2: It was a positive passion turning.
Speaker 1: Point if people had talked about feelings, not feelings like
Speaker 1: I love you, but it might be feelings like you know,
Speaker 1: I really like you.
Speaker 2: And also they talked.
Speaker 1: About relationship definition, the what is this conversation before you
Speaker 1: have sex?
Speaker 2: Like what are you looking for? Are you probably looking
Speaker 2: very short term?
Speaker 3: Cool?
Speaker 2: Me too, It's fine.
Speaker 1: The problems happen when expectations are not met, and when
Speaker 1: expectations aren't stated. Then you each got your secrets in
Speaker 1: your head about where you know where these what is
Speaker 1: happening in this relationship? You've got to say it more
Speaker 1: clearly is what I say. Okay, my PhD is in
Speaker 1: clinical psychology, Ashley, thank you for answering. I'm not a therapist.
Speaker 1: I'm a professor of psychology at cal State Channel Islands. Okay,
Speaker 1: when we come back, I will be taking your calls.
Speaker 1: The number is one eight hundred five two zero one
Speaker 1: five three four. That's one eight hundred five two zero
Speaker 1: one KFI. You're listening to the Doctor Wendy wall Show
Speaker 1: on KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app. You've been listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh. You
Speaker 1: can always hear us live on KFI AM six forty
Speaker 1: from seven to nine pm on Sunday and anytime on
Speaker 1: demand on the iHeartRadio app