Speaker 1: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster
Speaker 1: movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and
Speaker 1: I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by.
Speaker 2: Ben Stover, individual therapist.
Speaker 1: Hannah Espinozo, marriage and family therapists. We're all licensed clinical
Speaker 1: professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice out of Chicago.
Speaker 1: Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast
Speaker 1: is purely for entertainment purposes and to fulfill our love
Speaker 1: of dissecting pop culture and all forms.
Speaker 3: Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,
Speaker 3: we aren't your therapist.
Speaker 1: If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find
Speaker 1: a local mental health provider. I feel good, I feel great,
Speaker 1: I feel wonderful, guys, And just like that, we're talking
Speaker 1: about what about Bob today, y'all.
Speaker 4: We're finally doing it, y'all.
Speaker 3: We've only talked about doing this one for eight years,
Speaker 3: so it's a good thing.
Speaker 1: We're doing every season, every season we have talked about this.
Speaker 1: It's incredible excited. So this is our official start to
Speaker 1: season nine. Correct, Yes, this is our official start to
Speaker 1: season nine. We're finally discussing what about Bob, the patron
Speaker 1: saint of this podcast. I haven't watched this movie since
Speaker 1: I was a kid. What about you, guys. I also
Speaker 1: haven't watched this movie since I was a kid, but
Speaker 1: I remember it pretty clearly. Honestly, I was a little
Speaker 1: surprised by how well I remembered it.
Speaker 3: I watched it first, I think on a band trip
Speaker 3: on the bus sure, of course, because our band director
Speaker 3: was a interesting fellow and liked movies like this. We
Speaker 3: watched this in Austin powers on said trip. I think
Speaker 3: it was to Saint Louis for this one. And the
Speaker 3: last time I watched it, I think I was in
Speaker 3: my psychology and film class at Eastern Illinois, which is
Speaker 3: more years ago then we're going to quantify.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 1: This movie it came out in nineteen ninety one. It
Speaker 1: stars Bill Murray and Richard Dreyfuss, and it's about a
Speaker 1: guy named Bob who has a collection of mental health
Speaker 1: stuff that we will talk about, who goes to see
Speaker 1: a new psychotherapist I think is his official title in
Speaker 1: the movie, doctor Leo Marvin, And that is the movie
Speaker 1: Bob follows him to on his vacation. That's all the
Speaker 1: part I really remembered is a patient follows his psychiatrist
Speaker 1: on vacation. Not remembering that and watching it now that
Speaker 1: Bob meets this guy for ten minutes maybe less in
Speaker 1: his office, imprints on him like a duck, and then
Speaker 1: follows him for the next several days on vacation. So yes,
Speaker 1: we'll be talking about just Bob and Leo. We'll be
Speaker 1: taking turns talking about Bob first and the mental health
Speaker 1: soup that is his character, and then we'll be talking
Speaker 1: about Leo. Doctor Leo Marvin as a typical sort of
Speaker 1: stereotype of like a narcissistic therapist, as I feel like
Speaker 1: they were portrayed a lot in the eighties and nineties,
Speaker 1: like a frasier up their own ass. It actually kind
Speaker 1: of made me think of when we did Cruel Intentions
Speaker 1: the Therapist in the beginning of that movie, where it's
Speaker 1: all about hawk and a product and being a snob
Speaker 1: seemed to be what we thought therapists were.
Speaker 4: At that time.
Speaker 3: It sure seems like the emphasis was on the expert
Speaker 3: therapist model where you come into my office and I
Speaker 3: sit behind a really big, powerful looking desk that communicates
Speaker 3: how small my pen is exactly.
Speaker 1: That desk was a monstrosity and so uncomfortable, so uncomfortable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it definitely doesn't create a warm environment in way which
Speaker 1: you feel. It definitely makes you feel like you're being interrogated.
Speaker 3: I have never done therapy sitting behind a desk, not
Speaker 3: one time ever ever.
Speaker 1: No, even when I've had a desk, I've done which
Speaker 1: I misimiting you guys all do, which is you face
Speaker 1: away from your desk. Your desk faces the wall, and
Speaker 1: you turn away from your desk and you face your
Speaker 1: client with nothing between the two of you.
Speaker 3: My desk also faces the wall, so that I find
Speaker 3: less things to distract myself with, which does not work.
Speaker 1: So I guess we coull just jump right into it
Speaker 1: with mister Bob Wilie. So right away we're introduced to
Speaker 1: this character who seems to have a collection of phobias.
Speaker 1: Is how he's first introduced. I started keeping track of
Speaker 1: them as I was watching. Let me know, guys if
Speaker 1: I miss anything. So claustrophobia, because he is like when
Speaker 1: he gets into his apartment building hallway and he starts
Speaker 1: to get very like the walls are closing in on him,
Speaker 1: and the elevator and the elevator. He walked all the
Speaker 1: way up the stairs, which seems to be pretty far
Speaker 1: in Leo's office because he can't handle getting on the elevator.
Speaker 1: Does he go on the elevator in charch pretty four floors,
Speaker 1: which I feel like he would be so late to
Speaker 1: his appointment if he had to go forty four flights
Speaker 1: of stairs.
Speaker 3: Except that he's very compulsive, so he's probably very early
Speaker 3: walking up those stairs. Yeah, he looked like he was
Speaker 3: about to have a heart attack when he did that
Speaker 3: forty four flights.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really don't know. You'd have to be pretty
Speaker 1: fit to do that kind of bullshit. And a germophobe,
Speaker 1: which isn't actually a psychological term.
Speaker 4: I looked it up.
Speaker 1: The term is misophobia, which is when you're scared of
Speaker 1: germs touching stuff. So he uses a lot of tissues
Speaker 1: in the movie to touch buttons, to touch anything that
Speaker 1: was like a public item, and then like agoraphobia when
Speaker 1: he goes out, it seems like he's overwhelmed by the
Speaker 1: sound of the world.
Speaker 4: You know what kind of made me think of Hannah
Speaker 4: as bo is afraid? I was just thinking that exact thing.
Speaker 1: I was the first frames of the film are so
Speaker 1: similar to BoA's Afraid.
Speaker 4: You're absolutely right, but was Afraid.
Speaker 1: Is the horror horror the Lynchian horror nightmare version of
Speaker 1: What About Bob?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's probably inspired by paying homage to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he does describe things that also sound like panic,
Speaker 1: like when he's talking to Siggy.
Speaker 4: We'll discuss that later, that poor child and his poor name.
Speaker 1: He he does bring up stuff that does sound like
Speaker 1: actual panic symptoms, because he says like I get dizzy, spells, nauseous, trouble,
Speaker 1: they say, trouble, breathing, trembling, cold sweat like. He does
Speaker 1: name a lot of things that are legit panic, hot sweat,
Speaker 1: hot sweat, cold sweats. So when we see him, he
Speaker 1: does seem to be displayed a multitude of phobias. He
Speaker 1: works from home. He doesn't seem like he goes outside
Speaker 1: if he can help it. But we're why are we
Speaker 1: calling it soup?
Speaker 3: Though?
Speaker 1: Why are we calling a mental health soup? Even though
Speaker 1: I'm like naming all these actual diagnoses.
Speaker 3: Because they made up a diagnosis. Let's start there.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, like what he says actually is
Speaker 1: I guess a fancy way of saying mental soup multiphobic personality.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a made up diagnosis. That's why it's mental
Speaker 3: health soup. What we see Bob displaying is two distinct
Speaker 3: likely disorders, but none of them are multiphobic personality disorder
Speaker 3: because it's not fucking real.
Speaker 1: I know, Bob does seem to be what we've talked
Speaker 1: about a lot on this podcast, which is, we want
Speaker 1: to put a crazy person in a movie, so we're
Speaker 1: gonna just throw a bunch of symptoms and behaviors at
Speaker 1: them in order to serve the story, not to like
Speaker 1: represent anything accurately. And this is clearly a comedy.
Speaker 4: We get it, guys.
Speaker 1: It's a comedy and it's directed by Frank Oz. We
Speaker 1: know it's not a movie supposed to take seriously. And
Speaker 1: they do use a lot of terms in language that
Speaker 1: is a part of our work as therapists.
Speaker 3: And most of it was represented poorly, but they did.
Speaker 3: I feel like they just took exactly like you said,
Speaker 3: how do we make the most Bonker's story about a
Speaker 3: really bad patient and a bad therapist. And remember when
Speaker 3: they introduced Bob to us, it's via his previous therapist,
Speaker 3: who the subtext is telling us that person is quitting
Speaker 3: therapy because of Bob.
Speaker 1: Bob drove him out of the job, out of the field,
Speaker 1: he drove him, he clearing his office out. Yeah, like yeah,
Speaker 1: And I do wonder when that therapist said we're a
Speaker 1: dying breed to Leo. I was like, is this some
Speaker 1: joke that I would understand when I first saw this
Speaker 1: movie in like ninety one that I don't quite understand now.
Speaker 3: Psychiatrists that do therapy is my guess. Okay, but I
Speaker 3: don't know, or maybe he was just referencing that people
Speaker 3: who are experts like that are dying breed and was
Speaker 3: saying exactly whatever he needed to to play to Leo's ego,
Speaker 3: so he would take the patient without questioning too much. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Maybe, But yeah, Bob is yeah, he's it's basically a
Speaker 1: vehicle for Bill Murray to act totally berserker. And like
Speaker 1: I said, they just kind of throw a bunch of
Speaker 1: phobias at him. And I think one thing we can
Speaker 1: address though, is is it possible for someone to have
Speaker 1: multiple diagnoses to have multiple phobias?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What feels suspicious about Bob as we get to know
Speaker 1: him throughout the movie, though, is it seems like he more.
Speaker 4: Has has.
Speaker 1: Anxiety or perseverates on the idea of having different diagnoses
Speaker 1: and phobias that necessarily has them.
Speaker 2: And he gets over them too fast, he gets over them.
Speaker 4: Well that's the biggest way.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's definitely one of the biggest problems in terms
Speaker 1: of what they're displaying to us, as though as though
Speaker 1: this ten minute conversation could do anything for someone with
Speaker 1: as as ill as he is supposed to be presenting.
Speaker 2: Right, which.
Speaker 3: It points to CD for him, right, And if you
Speaker 3: have multiple diagnoses, what you're describing is that he's worried
Speaker 3: that he has the things. Yeah, but he doesn't actually
Speaker 3: have them. And yes, problems with the movie that oh, look,
Speaker 3: there's magic, but I think the movie's making fun of
Speaker 3: that more than presenting that is real. Yeah, but if
Speaker 3: Bob were a real person and he was displaying constant
Speaker 3: worry that he has these disorders but then gets over
Speaker 3: them quickly and just plays up to them, I don't
Speaker 3: know that plays up to them isn't quite the right word,
Speaker 3: because he's genuinely distressed. Like I don't think Bob doesn't
Speaker 3: seem to present his fictitious disorder, which used to be
Speaker 3: called Munchausen's.
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't buy that one quite well.
Speaker 1: Maybe what we can do right now is a little
Speaker 1: psycho ed one on one about what Bob could actually
Speaker 1: be presenting with because one thing is, yeah, you're talking
Speaker 1: about Munchausen. I could see people positing that while watching
Speaker 1: this movie. What makes you think that's not that?
Speaker 3: I think with Munchausen's people play into that almost an
Speaker 3: unaware kind of way. There's like an intentionality, there's an
Speaker 3: intention of a drivenness to it, and they believe they're ill.
Speaker 3: And Bob, I think, worries that he's ill, but doesn't
Speaker 3: necessarily believe it. He's trying not to get things, and
Speaker 3: he's coming up with rituals to do to avoid them.
Speaker 3: My good example of a ritual he clearly has is
Speaker 3: when he starts talking about being afraid that he has turets. Yes,
Speaker 3: but then he starts acting like he has turets to
Speaker 3: prevent himself fro getting threats. That would be an example
Speaker 3: of an obsession, yeah and a compulsion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, because if he had like fictitious or
Speaker 1: like Munchausen, he would just be saying I have tourettes.
Speaker 4: Correct and he'd be acting as if he had turets.
Speaker 2: He would. But what we're talking aboubout not afraid of it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but what.
Speaker 1: We're talking about is actually a version of OCD. I
Speaker 1: don't think people know a lot about which is OCD
Speaker 1: can present as an obsessive worry that you have something
Speaker 1: like I've had people worry they weren't actually suicidal, but
Speaker 1: they were worried they'd be suicidal. And that can be
Speaker 1: something you have to be careful about differentiating as a therapist,
Speaker 1: like do you are you actually experiencing SI societal ideation
Speaker 1: or are you just having intrusive thoughts about like oh god,
Speaker 1: what if I grab that knife and cut myself?
Speaker 4: Which is different?
Speaker 2: Is different?
Speaker 3: What makes yeah OCD it in particular show up like
Speaker 3: this is the obsession is the worry that something's wrong,
Speaker 3: and the compulsion is seeking reassurance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because what the client I'm thinking of would ask
Speaker 1: a lot of questions. They would go to It was
Speaker 1: a younger client, so they would go to their parents
Speaker 1: and ask them a bajillion questions over and over again,
Speaker 1: like will I really do that?
Speaker 4: Will I really hurt myself? And so you're right, like
Speaker 4: there is.
Speaker 1: The thought, and then the accompanying behavior to try to
Speaker 1: feel safe if possible.
Speaker 3: And he seems to be aware that it's ridiculous, which
Speaker 3: is another thing that makes it point away from fictitious disorder.
Speaker 2: He's not convinced he has something.
Speaker 3: But where we do see is that Bob displays he said,
Speaker 3: can people have two yep, and Bob imprints on Leo
Speaker 3: like a little baby duck, and clearly imprinted on his
Speaker 3: last therapist, and also in prints on Leo's family and
Speaker 3: on the elderly couple.
Speaker 2: Although they got they have their own beef the agenda.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a weird character that I don't think
Speaker 1: was necessary. Agree, and they kept like panning to them, yeah,
Speaker 1: to get their reaction shots to when bad things would
Speaker 1: happen to Leo.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean they're clearly setting Bob on him. They're
Speaker 3: encouraging Bob. They sure Leo deflects him and they just
Speaker 3: bring him right back.
Speaker 1: They're they're honestly, I can kind of understand, Yeah, someone
Speaker 1: who can engage in pettiness. They're like, you need somewhere
Speaker 1: to stay, you can stay with us, Bob.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But what we do see Bob displays his dependent personality disorder.
Speaker 3: He is unsure of what his identity is without someone
Speaker 3: else validating that, without being attached to somebody else. Leo
Speaker 3: is the greatest doctor that's ever existed, and he can't
Speaker 3: possibly do anything without him. And he gets so scared
Speaker 3: when he finds out Leo's going on vacation that he
Speaker 3: acts like he's the insurance police and tracks him down
Speaker 3: by getting the call center to tell him where doctor
Speaker 3: Marvin is.
Speaker 2: And watching that scene just made me scream in my
Speaker 2: head goes like, oh my god, that might actually work.
Speaker 1: I know. I feel kind of bad for the for
Speaker 1: the Answering Service because you don't think people are going
Speaker 1: to act like that in real life, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, like.
Speaker 4: Be that out of pocket.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I can see where you would accidentally do
Speaker 1: something even feels so awful.
Speaker 4: After the fact, I felt really bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, agreed. And just the fact that he that
Speaker 1: was so that was just so wild. All of that
Speaker 1: part was so incredibly wild. And then faking that he
Speaker 1: completed suicide in order to oh because when he when
Speaker 1: he goes to the and he says he killed himself,
Speaker 1: that's why.
Speaker 4: We're investigating it. Yeah, Yeah, Which that's.
Speaker 1: Another thing where because I think what you were starting
Speaker 1: to say earlier, Ben is someone who has these phobias,
Speaker 1: genuinely has these phobias, wouldn't be able to overcome them
Speaker 1: enough to stalk their therapist to his vacation exactly. Like
Speaker 1: this movie tries to kind of bullshit that, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: like him having a hard time getting on the bus
Speaker 1: and stuff, but he gets over all that stuff so
Speaker 1: quickly in his pursuit of Leo.
Speaker 2: He does.
Speaker 3: I mean, he clearly made everybody on the bus miserable,
Speaker 3: so he's actively trying. But because he's on such a mission.
Speaker 3: But like I didn't explain fictitious disorder enough, and with
Speaker 3: factitious disorder, he'd be doing it for the attention. He'd
Speaker 3: be faking the illness to get the attention, and you're
Speaker 3: going to great lengths to do so. I don't see
Speaker 3: that in Bob. I'd accept the mental health soup argument
Speaker 3: where they played some aspects of that, but I don't
Speaker 3: feel like Bob would randomly fake symptoms. At moments where
Speaker 3: things got tough, he just kept singing the praises of
Speaker 3: how doctor Marvin's the only person who can fix it,
Speaker 3: and displayed blatantly inappropriate Bonker's behavior, but it didn't seem
Speaker 3: like he played up symptoms to get the attention. He
Speaker 3: just soaked up all the attention he could get, but
Speaker 3: didn't use his symptoms to get it. And it wasn't
Speaker 3: like he looked up a disorder and was faking it.
Speaker 3: It seems like he's afraid he has a disorder. So
Speaker 3: that's where the separation comes in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so this is where I guess, if nothing else,
Speaker 1: Bob is a good practice for like differentiating diagnosis, which
Speaker 1: is does he have OCD, does he have fictitious Munchausen's,
Speaker 1: Does he have dependent personality disorder? Does he just have
Speaker 1: like a bunch of random phobias multiphobic personality? I guess
Speaker 1: is that we could put it and like we're saying,
Speaker 1: the phobia thing kind of falls apart by how easily
Speaker 1: is able to overcome them, because I work with people
Speaker 1: who have like phobic levels of stuff and it's hard
Speaker 1: for It's like they miss important stuffs in their life,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like their phobias get in
Speaker 1: the way of their functioning of things that really mean
Speaker 1: something to them. So the fact that he's able to
Speaker 1: push through all of that, so quickly to get all
Speaker 1: the way to where Leo is kind of blows the
Speaker 1: phobia diagnosis out of the water, right.
Speaker 3: Whereas when we talk about dependent personality disorder, listen to
Speaker 3: these traits and tell me if this sounds like Bob.
Speaker 3: This is where we do what's called differential diagnosing. Lots
Speaker 3: of things have mimicking symptoms, But when I start listening
Speaker 3: to these intense, pervasive need to be taken care of,
Speaker 3: submissive clinging behavior, extreme fear of separation, this sounds like Bob.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's Bob. Definitely, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the one that I picked up
Speaker 1: on first, besides the phobias. But I really like the
Speaker 1: way that you guys are talking about how it's that
Speaker 1: he's just so afraid that he has something, because I
Speaker 1: think that definitely is a part of a part of
Speaker 1: what's going on for him.
Speaker 3: I think when you look at Bob, he does fit
Speaker 3: the combination of these two really well, at least as
Speaker 3: well as going to a from the early nineties with
Speaker 3: Bill Murray being a maniac and apparently he was actually
Speaker 3: a maniac on set, and I think the animosity that
Speaker 3: Richard Dreyfush shows him was real because he he threw.
Speaker 2: An ashtray at his face. Bill Murray threw it. Bill
Speaker 2: Murray was being like a bully in a giant asshole.
Speaker 4: Apparently you know that method. Acting bullshit is bullshit?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.
Speaker 3: I don't even know if he was doing that or
Speaker 3: just Bill Murray was a maniac at this exact fase
Speaker 3: in his career.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I haven't studied up on my Bill Murray history, but
Speaker 3: the behavior we see in the film is clearly obsessed
Speaker 3: and afraid, but also having a deep need to be
Speaker 3: taken care of. But I don't think they overlap. I
Speaker 3: don't think Bob is doing all this to fake that
Speaker 3: he has something. I think he's genuinely terrified that something's
Speaker 3: wrong with him. But it's not inventing shit to be that.
Speaker 3: I can see the argument for it, but I don't
Speaker 3: think so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I would be more open to the idea
Speaker 1: that maybe he has some anxiety OCD about having specific
Speaker 1: illnesses and maybe also having dependent personality disorder, Like you
Speaker 1: can have a personality disorder and have another mental health illness.
Speaker 1: I don't know how much people know that either, because
Speaker 1: I think people I don't know the modern The current
Speaker 1: way of thinking about personality disorders is not very kind.
Speaker 1: And the way I kind of hear it be talked
Speaker 1: about in the mainstream is, if you have a personality disorder,
Speaker 1: nothing's really wrong with you, quote unquote except for your
Speaker 1: personality in terms of diagnosing. But actually a lot of
Speaker 1: people with personal disorders can have comorbidities with other diagnoses.
Speaker 1: So he could be someone who has anxiety and dependent
Speaker 1: personality disorder, and anxiety could come out as perseverating on
Speaker 1: illnesses to an OCD level.
Speaker 3: Perhaps, Yeah, I certainly see the OCD. He's clearly fixated,
Speaker 3: and he has lots of little things that he does,
Speaker 3: and we're seeing all of that combined. Like you said,
Speaker 3: I think where you're I draw the separation again, is
Speaker 3: that in fictitious disorder. The best example we've seen on
Speaker 3: that on movies we've done was an it where we
Speaker 3: saw Munchausen's by Proxy with the one kid's mom who
Speaker 3: was medicating him for anxiety and like making him take
Speaker 3: pills and arguing with the doctors and doctor shopping and
Speaker 3: manipulating results and telling everybody to get attention that her
Speaker 3: son was so sick Bob's not doing any of that.
Speaker 3: There's none of the malicious representation. Bob is genuinely terrified
Speaker 3: that something's wrong with him. It's just super dependent at
Speaker 3: the same time. And that's a real interesting divide in
Speaker 3: mental health soup. We've got going on with Bob here.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I was just going to add that another
Speaker 1: really good example of Munchausen is in the HBO limited.
Speaker 4: Series called Sharp Objects.
Speaker 1: That's another really good portrayal of Munchausen's and the lengths
Speaker 1: that someone will go through to prove that their child
Speaker 1: is ill.
Speaker 2: Or that they are right.
Speaker 3: And I just don't see it here, but I do
Speaker 3: see all the things Brittany was talking about, like he's fixating,
Speaker 3: he's worried, he's doing things to make the fear go away.
Speaker 3: He's where it's bonkers and that he shouldn't be like that.
Speaker 3: That's why he's seeking treatment. But he's also showing some
Speaker 3: rigidities and other little tiny rituals, like we see him
Speaker 3: jumping cracks on the sidewalk, we see him touching buttons
Speaker 3: with a kleenex.
Speaker 1: He walks up the stairs, he goes to the side,
Speaker 1: he had to turn sideways to go up the stairs.
Speaker 2: And there's all kinds of little things.
Speaker 3: But I do want to specify too that in differential diagnosis,
Speaker 3: there are two obsessive compulsive diagnoses, and people sometimes get
Speaker 3: them confused. Obsessive compulsive personality disorder is marked by like
Speaker 3: stark rigidity, people that can't tolerate if their pencils are
Speaker 3: lined up in a certain way out of their desk,
Speaker 3: that it's one's turned a little bit and would have
Speaker 3: to have things in order. It almost present a little
Speaker 3: bit like we see when there's neurotypical things where people
Speaker 3: can't tolerate the break from routines, but it would present
Speaker 3: with stark rigidity. Angela from the Office would probably be
Speaker 3: a great example of that, like everything has to be
Speaker 3: these certain ways, everything needs to be this way, and
Speaker 3: she'd be a pretty good TV example of that, and
Speaker 3: Jim would be her worst nightmare.
Speaker 1: And I think something that I use as a way
Speaker 1: to understand OCPD is that someone who has OCPD, it's
Speaker 1: actually very tough to treat.
Speaker 4: Supposedly.
Speaker 1: I've never worked with it myself, but supposedly it's tough
Speaker 1: to treat because kind of similar to Angela from the Office,
Speaker 1: when people have OCPD, they're more likely to think that
Speaker 1: the way they do things is the way you're supposed
Speaker 1: to do things, like they're the correct ones, kind of
Speaker 1: like type A on steroids.
Speaker 2: Right, and there is no other way? Yeah, so its wrong. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Whereas OCD, there is this awareness that the way that
Speaker 1: I'm thinking is not quite sane and it's causing me
Speaker 1: to stress. It doesn't feel like it's adding anything to
Speaker 1: my life. It's just like getting in the way of stuff.
Speaker 1: I would also say, like another diagnosis we probably should
Speaker 1: make sure to rule out or talk through is hypochondria,
Speaker 1: which is actually somatic disorder or sematics disorder. Why would
Speaker 1: we not consider him having that either when we're thinking
Speaker 1: about all these things he's worried about having.
Speaker 3: None of the things he's mentioning are medical illnesses. That
Speaker 3: would be the top reason why. That one pretty much
Speaker 3: ruled itself out of my brain pretty quick, locked right
Speaker 3: into dependent personality disorder OCD took me some thinking and
Speaker 3: some reading, but locked right into depending I think we
Speaker 3: all did us when we were talking offline, We're like,
Speaker 3: so he's got dependent personality disorder, right, right, Okay, absolutely,
Speaker 3: but hypochondria would have him afraid of disease period, and
Speaker 3: he's afraid of germs from touching things and he's doing
Speaker 3: things to avoid it, but he's not afraid of illness
Speaker 3: in general period, and that he's thinking he's always going
Speaker 3: to get sick or is sick, or something's always wrong
Speaker 3: with him.
Speaker 2: He's not doing any of those things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I wanted to just name that because I
Speaker 1: could understand listening to this podcast episode and being like,
Speaker 1: why aren't they much in hypochondria because he's so fixated
Speaker 1: on all these different illnesses that he might have or
Speaker 1: that he thinks he has. But Yeah, you're making the
Speaker 1: good differentiation, which is that in order to have that
Speaker 1: specific diagnosis, it's physical illnesses that you think you're having,
Speaker 1: and you can be so concerned that you have these
Speaker 1: different illnesses that you can actually give yourself like physical pain,
Speaker 1: Like I've worked with people that have like legit back pain,
Speaker 1: stuff like that as a result of sematic disorder.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and having a sematic disorder means you're genuinely speaking,
Speaker 3: refusing to deal or it's just presenting physically, and if
Speaker 3: people aren't processing the emotion, the body then feels the
Speaker 3: painful emotion through physical pain and I'm not hearing any
Speaker 3: reports of that from Bob. I don't know if you
Speaker 3: guys heard, but I didn't catch any of those.
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so, because he doesn't really talk
Speaker 1: about any medical any kind of descriptions of physical symptoms
Speaker 1: except for when he's being interviewed by Leo initially when
Speaker 1: he makes all that list of like dizzyness, nausea. That's
Speaker 1: really the only time that he talks about it. He
Speaker 1: doesn't really talk about it at any other time of
Speaker 1: the film.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I think you're right, Like,
Speaker 2: it's just.
Speaker 3: I think we can just wipe that one off of
Speaker 3: and like, but it's one we should look at and
Speaker 3: going like, but he's afraid of being sick. But nope,
Speaker 3: just it's more touching, it's touching dirty things.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's more of those.
Speaker 1: It's more the phobic OCD version of being afraid of
Speaker 1: germs or illness. Not so much like I think I
Speaker 1: have these things all the time. Because that's actually in it,
Speaker 1: that kid ends up kind of getting somatic disorder because
Speaker 1: his mom has like the Munchausen right, Like, he starts
Speaker 1: to develop his reaction to that, which is probably just
Speaker 1: his internal trauma from his mom and being like fucked
Speaker 1: over by her and thinking, you.
Speaker 4: Know, nightmare nightmare status guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And with Bob there was something I wanted
Speaker 3: to mention with five. I don't remem it was five
Speaker 3: or tr OCD got changed. It used to require both
Speaker 3: obsessions and compulsions, and it no longer does. People can
Speaker 3: have one or the other. Now they do not have
Speaker 3: to have both. You do not have to have ritualistic
Speaker 3: things that you do. And it used to be in
Speaker 3: DSM four that that was locked in. It had to
Speaker 3: be both or you could not get this diagnosis. Under
Speaker 3: the modern version of this, Bob would be eligible. Under
Speaker 3: the past version of this, Bob would be eligible, I think.
Speaker 3: But when you see there are people who don't necessarily
Speaker 3: perseverate so much. There are people who just compulsively do
Speaker 3: things to seek reassurance, and it is they can have
Speaker 3: worries without having fixated worries, but still have a compulsive
Speaker 3: response to them. So it's where differential diagnosis is important.
Speaker 3: And for the love of God, stop diagnosing yourselves with AI.
Speaker 2: Stop it, stop.
Speaker 1: It, We'll stop trying to do it. Here's the thing,
Speaker 1: as humans, we don't have all the answers to the universe.
Speaker 1: So neither does AI because AI is just because AI
Speaker 1: is just to us. They don't know they have all
Speaker 1: the answers. Stop it, and it's just like WebMD on
Speaker 1: you know, steroids. Yeah, I would say something I also
Speaker 1: want to point out about Bob and if we're going
Speaker 1: to go off of the dependent personality disorder diagnosis is
Speaker 1: something that I think, I'm sure makes us all lean
Speaker 1: more towards that. Well, it's a few things, but one
Speaker 1: is what's very clear throughout the course of this movie
Speaker 1: is how he relates to other people, you know, not
Speaker 1: just not just Leo, but his whole family. And a
Speaker 1: common component of personality disorders is struggling relationally, struggling to
Speaker 1: relate to people in a way that's appropriate. Whether it's
Speaker 1: I can't quite relate to people, or I can't quite
Speaker 1: figure out relationships, or I don't know how to make friendships,
Speaker 1: or I don't know well with him, it's more like
Speaker 1: I don't know what's appropriate and what's not. And that's
Speaker 1: a big component of Bob throughout this movie is he
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to have any social intelligence. He has no
Speaker 1: awareness of legit. How scary it would be to show
Speaker 1: up at a person's house unannounced that you've only met
Speaker 1: once for ten minutes. My clients would understand how unnerving
Speaker 1: it would be if they just showed up at my house.
Speaker 1: Well one, that they would know where I lived, and
Speaker 1: that they would show up at my house unannounced. There's
Speaker 1: like that social awareness of how off putting that would
Speaker 1: be and also how that would ruin your relationship to
Speaker 1: your therapist. And he has he seems to have no
Speaker 1: social awareness of how he comes off, of how off
Speaker 1: putting he's behaving, and how if he really wants to
Speaker 1: work with Theo, I mean, if he really wants to
Speaker 1: work with Leo psychiatrically, that he's ruining it by showing
Speaker 1: up at his house the way he is.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, there's a zero percent chance Leo's going to
Speaker 3: work with him. Even if this movie isn't bonkers.
Speaker 4: There's even if it doesn't end in attempted murder.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, which got ignored.
Speaker 4: By the way, and then he marries his sister.
Speaker 3: And I guess family just like playing right into it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's unbelievable, it's outrageous, but yeah, he has no awaren
Speaker 3: that lack of awareness actually made me wonder if he's
Speaker 3: somewhere on the spectrum with like is like not perceiving
Speaker 3: social cues and it's.
Speaker 2: That's where it's mental health too.
Speaker 3: It's real difficult to kind of suss that out of
Speaker 3: a Bob shows a lot of autism sectual traits a lot.
Speaker 1: Well, he's also the victim of I feel like this
Speaker 1: time in understanding mental health, like autism wasn't even understood
Speaker 1: the way we understand it now. They're giving him sort
Speaker 1: of the thing that they would do back then, which is,
Speaker 1: aren't people with mental health stuff so eccentric and wacky
Speaker 1: and weird? And they will just do wacky, weird, eccentric stuff.
Speaker 3: And then we let Bill Murray completely off the chain.
Speaker 3: I guarantee he improvised the living crap out of this movie.
Speaker 5: And yeah, but you just you watch it and go like, uh,
Speaker 5: that lack of perception that this is weird like that
Speaker 5: that seems to go beyond even personality disorder, like the
Speaker 5: imprinting and I just needed I needed I needed that,
Speaker 5: and the compulsion to do it makes sense, But it
Speaker 5: seems like there's something else missing that that would probably cover.
Speaker 3: And you're right, they that wouldn't have been remotely considered.
Speaker 3: But he absolutely does not perceive boundaries, anyone's boundaries at all,
Speaker 3: And he doesn't seem to recognize or tolerate well being
Speaker 3: told no or deviated from his plan, whatever his ideas are.
Speaker 3: But that doesn't appear malicious or like premeditated. He seems
Speaker 3: like he's just doing stuff like he's He seems like
Speaker 3: the embodiment of do I look like a guy with
Speaker 3: a plan. I'm just a dog chasing cars. That's what
Speaker 3: he seems like he is.
Speaker 1: Don't even don't insult the joker like that, and also,
Speaker 1: don't make me say something like that, Okay, got him,
Speaker 1: but I hear what you're saying though. Also, and something
Speaker 1: we've talked about on different episode odes and why this
Speaker 1: is mental health soup, is someone who is as mentally
Speaker 1: unwell as Bob would also be so plan oriented, like
Speaker 1: the way that he makes the whole, like getting the
Speaker 1: outfit and the fake badge together, going to the answering
Speaker 1: service office, working the answering operate well, working the operators
Speaker 1: the way that he does, like his ability to hold
Speaker 1: it together and deceive people. That does not also coincide
Speaker 1: with someone who can't seem to leave his apartment without
Speaker 1: doing all this ritualistic stuff and can't seem to get
Speaker 1: on the bus without making a scene like the movie's
Speaker 1: doing that thing that movies do where they're picking and choosing. Also,
Speaker 1: where he's ill, and when it works for the plot
Speaker 1: for him to be stable and with it, he's with it.
Speaker 1: But when it works for a plot to for him
Speaker 1: to be totally out there, he's out there. And the
Speaker 1: fact that even with the way that he goes about
Speaker 1: defrauding the answering service, is that it is also him
Speaker 1: practicing some awareness of how the world works and how
Speaker 1: I was just thinking the exact same thing that him
Speaker 1: being able to do that and engage in and be
Speaker 1: charming with them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's more antisocial.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like that feels like something completely different. Being able
Speaker 1: to be to appear that confident and that comfortable in
Speaker 1: that way just doesn't match everything else that we see,
Speaker 1: Like it just really doesn't even come close.
Speaker 4: It doesn't. It just doesn't track.
Speaker 3: It's that's where it's difficult to suss out, because right
Speaker 3: he's showing like a lack of understanding that you can't
Speaker 3: just imprint onto everybody. This is not your family, but
Speaker 3: you don't know these people and they're just being kind
Speaker 3: to you.
Speaker 2: But this you're not.
Speaker 3: You're not man's house, you're in his pajamas, and that
Speaker 3: you came back and now you're playing with the kids.
Speaker 3: If that didn't feel so spontaneous and childlike, it would
Speaker 3: be way more concerning from Bob. I think it's just
Speaker 3: he's really not perceiving it. Where like antisocial would, there'd
Speaker 3: be an agenda, it'd be manipulative, be no, you're going
Speaker 3: to do this, so you do what I want and
Speaker 3: Bob Bob is missing that. I do not see that,
Speaker 3: but it's worth looking at because that shit is scary.
Speaker 1: And it then it calls into question like is he
Speaker 1: being fake the whole movie? Which is what I which
Speaker 1: is what I was just thinking, So that is just
Speaker 1: all fucking made up and he's really just a horrible person,
Speaker 1: or like when he takes me to the hospital at
Speaker 1: the end of the towards the end of the movie
Speaker 1: and he's charming all the staff. But I do think
Speaker 1: that is where the movie is like picking and choosing
Speaker 1: what works for the plot, not necessarily anything that makes sense.
Speaker 1: And what we talk about a lot in this podcast
Speaker 1: is how it also paints people who are of mental
Speaker 1: health disorders in a very negative light, like they can
Speaker 1: pick and choose when they're acting ill, that they can
Speaker 1: manipulate their diagnoses to get what they want, like when
Speaker 1: he calls a narcissist and a psychopath at the end Leo,
Speaker 1: which is also bad luck on him because I was like, Uh,
Speaker 1: look in the mirror, babe. But it does do the
Speaker 1: disservice to people who actually have these diagnoses to make
Speaker 1: it seem like they could just pull their shit together
Speaker 1: when it works for them and then fall apart when
Speaker 1: it does it. And I also think the way that
Speaker 1: he engages with Leo's son, Siggy also flies in the
Speaker 1: face of when we're talking about like that more nefarious
Speaker 1: antisocial behavior, because he does have these moments where with
Speaker 1: the kids that seem so genuine and childlike and is
Speaker 1: accessing an ability to connect that doesn't line up with
Speaker 1: these other things we're talking about.
Speaker 3: It really doesn't, and we're all agreeing here, like it's
Speaker 3: it's a little too spontaneous, it's a little too authentic,
Speaker 3: it's too genuine there, you're not seeing manipulative acting like
Speaker 3: he's a baby or a child to then get something
Speaker 3: out of it. It seems like he really just needs
Speaker 3: that and is accessing a part of his self that
Speaker 3: is hurt more than he's trying to control the situation.
Speaker 3: Like he definitely wants care, but he seems to want
Speaker 3: care and not understand that what he's doing is bananas.
Speaker 3: And that's a really big difference in understanding it and
Speaker 3: doing it anyway because you want it and don't care
Speaker 3: or can't care. Yeah, I think that that one. We
Speaker 3: seem to be in agreement, like it's worth talking, but
Speaker 3: now don't see it, Patrick Bateman, that and you know
Speaker 3: who else shows some of that stuff, Doctor Lee Marvin.
Speaker 4: So should we take a break here?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we've covered Bob. People. I don't have
Speaker 2: much else to say about Bob, do you guys?
Speaker 4: I don't think I have anything else to say about Bob?
Speaker 2: No, but what about pop?
Speaker 4: What about Bob?
Speaker 2: What about?
Speaker 4: But about says? Is that the titled movie over and
Speaker 4: over again.
Speaker 1: I was like, you gotta be kidding me, you gotta
Speaker 1: be kidnaming nineties? Yeah, I was actually the one last
Speaker 1: thing I want to say about Bob?
Speaker 2: What about Bob? Brittany?
Speaker 1: Is that what the family does? Maybe it's actually fits
Speaker 1: more the next part. But I think also a disservice
Speaker 1: this movie does to people similar to Bob is that
Speaker 1: it does a different kind of stigmatizing a lot of
Speaker 1: the movies you talked about where they have stigma around
Speaker 1: people with mental health disorders, especially significant ones like Bob
Speaker 1: probably has, is that they're like violent, scary, that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff, Right, this movie actually kind of goes too far.
Speaker 1: The other direction which it which is also how people
Speaker 1: can be treated in a stigmatizing way, is that infant
Speaker 1: fantalizing them. Like the mom literally says kids will be
Speaker 1: kids about Bob when he shares the room with Siggy,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, he's not a fucking kid. They all
Speaker 1: talk about him like his brain is like a four
Speaker 1: year old's, And that's also very disrespectful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that they set him up in the room and
Speaker 3: like left him with their child has me going like,
Speaker 3: what what are you?
Speaker 4: Wild fucking behavior, unrecking.
Speaker 2: Believable couch couch the couch.
Speaker 1: I would be like, I don't care where you sleep,
Speaker 1: Get the fuck away from my house.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I mean Leo was not wrong for being a.
Speaker 1: Poll well before we get to on that, yeah, let's
Speaker 1: take a break care and we'll be right back, all right,
Speaker 1: So doctor Leo Marvin, everybody unclench your jaws and let's
Speaker 1: swallow them whole. What do we think about, doctor Leo Marvin?
Speaker 2: And you chose to say, we know what?
Speaker 4: He who we would love to swallow whole, Sigmund for aid.
Speaker 2: That is quite evident.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which it's like do we not know? And I
Speaker 1: mean that's just typical. Also, like every therapist and psychiatrist
Speaker 1: and everybody must be obsessed with Sigmund.
Speaker 3: Freud, especially if they're the expot therapist motto.
Speaker 1: Like you're gonna have a bust of him in your office,
Speaker 1: You're gonn name your home only son after.
Speaker 2: Him, and your daughter after his daughter.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Anna, I knew that. I didn't even catch
Speaker 1: that till I was like, I think Anna is also
Speaker 1: the name of something else, but I just couldn't remember.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Anna Freud.
Speaker 3: Do you know that he actually a you know, quite
Speaker 3: successful uh theorist herself, and her theories on childhood actually
Speaker 3: significantly improved and were better than her father's, and like
Speaker 3: the dynamic between those two especially.
Speaker 2: We'll talk about the puppets, but.
Speaker 4: Yes, we will talk about the buckets, can't forget.
Speaker 3: The puppets, but the yeah, naming your children after I
Speaker 3: mean they were it was really some like on the nose,
Speaker 3: like we're really going to lean into how unwell Leo
Speaker 3: Marvin is and obsessed himself.
Speaker 1: Well, and also this betrayal, which like I said, is
Speaker 1: up top, is not unfortunately a typical of this time
Speaker 1: period that all people in mental health spaces like his
Speaker 1: are these elitist money grubbers who write books and who
Speaker 1: are like just trying to hawk their wares, and they
Speaker 1: all want to become some like psychological celebrity with their
Speaker 1: own modality that makes them famous like baby steps. Is
Speaker 1: his right, this idea that also well, this is an
Speaker 1: idea that also encourages us to not trust therapists, not
Speaker 1: trust mental health providers because we're out, we're out, we're
Speaker 1: in it for our own gain, which is hilarious because
Speaker 1: actually a lot of therapists and stuff don't make a
Speaker 1: lot of money, especially early especially or ever some or
Speaker 1: ever some times. But he's probably I bet you he's
Speaker 1: the kind of psychiatrist so that takes no insurance.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's all which.
Speaker 1: Is like, then how do you get someone like Bob,
Speaker 1: who I can't imagine has a lot of money and
Speaker 1: resources given where we see him living.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think, you know, understanding even what plans
Speaker 3: would have covered mental health back then is something we're
Speaker 3: all a little just too young to know or understand.
Speaker 3: Since the ACA, they all have to which means prior
Speaker 3: to the ACA they did not. So therapists only charging
Speaker 3: cash would have been much more common.
Speaker 2: And now it's kind of.
Speaker 3: A small percentage of people are like, look, i'll give
Speaker 3: you a super bill, but I'm not messing around with insurance.
Speaker 3: And people that have written books and are super fancy
Speaker 3: and downtown offices might be a little more likely to
Speaker 3: follow that model, but it's not nearly as common.
Speaker 2: But I wonder what it was in ninety one.
Speaker 1: But I think off the rip, we need to talk
Speaker 1: about what we see him do that is unethical. One
Speaker 1: is the idea, Well one, this interview intake that's only
Speaker 1: five and a half minutes or whatever where totally insane. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's like Also, if he's billing Bob for that
Speaker 1: whole hour, that's shitty, Like whatever he's billing Bob on
Speaker 1: top of giving him a book and billing him for
Speaker 1: the book. Billing him for the book is crazy, crazy crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally sued.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's okay to give a client a book
Speaker 3: you wrote. It's okay to offer a book for sale.
Speaker 3: What is not okay is to give a book and
Speaker 3: then charge for it later, where a client might feel
Speaker 3: compelled to pay and feel like they might have to
Speaker 3: pay or they won't be seen. And that is unethical.
Speaker 3: That would be very very unethical and shady behavior. And
Speaker 3: Leo clearly obsessed with the book and just well, I mean, obviously.
Speaker 2: I wrote it, so I have to charge for it. No,
Speaker 2: you don't. You can eat that cost. You should never do.
Speaker 1: That, even just writing him off the way that he does,
Speaker 1: writing him off the way that he does, ending the session,
Speaker 1: giving him this one note answer for all of his problems.
Speaker 1: Like an intake usually takes at least and sometimes an
Speaker 1: intake takes several sessions, Like an intake can take a
Speaker 1: long time, Diagnosing somebody with a personality disorder with meeting
Speaker 1: them within the first ten minutes is unethical. Personality disorders
Speaker 1: take time to diagnose because it's a lot of relational
Speaker 1: it's a lot of behaviors, and so it takes time
Speaker 1: to really get a good idea of why somebody is
Speaker 1: engaging the behavior they're engaging in. So personality disorders, you
Speaker 1: don't unless somebody comes in with that diagnosis. That's not
Speaker 1: a diagnosis that you just offhandedly give to someone after
Speaker 1: talking to them for five to time minutes.
Speaker 3: No, and frankly would I have to cover with baby
Speaker 3: therapists all the time. Is we can't diagnose those at
Speaker 3: our level of licensure. You have to do testing or
Speaker 3: be a psychiatrist to diagnose personality disorders. You have to
Speaker 3: have evidence for these, and we are not qualified to
Speaker 3: diagnose those. There are limited number of things we're not
Speaker 3: qualified to diagnose. Most we are. But we're saying a
Speaker 3: character in a movie displays these traits, but we would
Speaker 3: not diagnose a real person with dependent personality disorder. We
Speaker 3: would refer them to testing or a psychiatrist to make
Speaker 3: that because you cannot. I can't say you can't make
Speaker 3: that diagnosis in four minutes. And you Leo Marvin set
Speaker 3: himself up for Bob by portraying himself as a god
Speaker 3: who can answer him with baby steps and read my
Speaker 3: book and like just baby steps, like just just baby steps,
Speaker 3: Like how do I stop all this stuff, baby steps,
Speaker 3: leaving Bob with the impression that he can be cured
Speaker 3: so quickly, all because they wanted to go on vacation.
Speaker 1: Another reason why him charging him for the book is
Speaker 1: unethical is because he is taking advantage of the power
Speaker 1: dynamic between him and the client, because he knows that
Speaker 1: the client, like you were saying, Ben, like the client
Speaker 1: might feel compelled to pay for the book and not
Speaker 1: say anything about it. So taking advantage or taking advantage
Speaker 1: of the client like that is what he's doing.
Speaker 4: So I feel like between that and he's just horrible.
Speaker 2: I don't even I.
Speaker 1: Don't even know what else to say. Like, just his
Speaker 1: the again, that expert model that like I am. I
Speaker 1: think he does think he is god. I really do
Speaker 1: think that that's how he feels about it, or at
Speaker 1: least he's a god about this book or whatever. Well,
Speaker 1: he definitely likes the smell of his own farts and
Speaker 1: he washed that shit. Oh he's just he's bottling it
Speaker 1: and inhaling.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: He's like President Schloob from Spaceballs, like when he's got
Speaker 3: the air in a can.
Speaker 2: But that's his own farce. He's just like.
Speaker 1: I love Balls as a kid, But yeah, I think
Speaker 1: a good point that you're both bringing up that I
Speaker 1: hadn't really thought of, but is a part of the
Speaker 1: ethical nature of our work and the pardynamic of our work,
Speaker 1: and why having an ego when you do our work
Speaker 1: is one of the worst things you can have as
Speaker 1: a therapist, because one, it keeps you from learning and growing,
Speaker 1: like having an ego and anything does. And then two,
Speaker 1: it allows you to make more mistakes than you would
Speaker 1: typically make.
Speaker 4: And a big.
Speaker 1: Mistake he makes is putting, like you said, putting himself
Speaker 1: in this position with Bob as a oracle figure. It's
Speaker 1: like that he has all the answers and then throwing
Speaker 1: him out the door.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: And also something too, which I think displays his ego
Speaker 1: and I think can be a common misunderstanding of mental
Speaker 1: health practitioners, is that almost we can read your aura
Speaker 1: and know, like immediately what's wrong with you. The way
Speaker 1: he says multifo personality with acute separation, anxiety and like
Speaker 1: a need for family connection or something like, how the
Speaker 1: fuck would you get all of that from talking to
Speaker 1: him for four minutes? Could you make an argument that
Speaker 1: he's someone that's getting referred from another practitioner, and maybe
Speaker 1: that's why he knows he did no, but he didn't
Speaker 1: get any info from that guy yet because he literally
Speaker 1: referred him and then like thirty minutes later, Bob's at
Speaker 1: his door, so he also it wasn't even long enough
Speaker 1: for him to get the chart, if you will, from
Speaker 1: the other practitioner, to have something to build on, because
Speaker 1: the only way that would fly is if he was
Speaker 1: just piggybacking on the diagnosis that was already made by
Speaker 1: the previous therapist or psychiatrist.
Speaker 4: But he doesn't even have that.
Speaker 1: He literally meets Bob for five seconds and makes these
Speaker 1: sweeping assumptions, but they don't talk about BOP's past. They
Speaker 1: don't talk about his family issues, Like that's also stuff
Speaker 1: you'd need to know if you were going to make
Speaker 1: any assumptions about his familial bonding about separation anxiety, Like
Speaker 1: it's so wild, how far reaching it is. But there
Speaker 1: are mental health practitioners who fucking walk around like that,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna look, that's not true. Like there are
Speaker 1: some that really do like the smell of their own
Speaker 1: farts and think that they can like eyeball a bitch
Speaker 1: and like know everything that's wrong with them and you
Speaker 1: Sometimes you see those on social media like this is
Speaker 1: where I also will you know as we're shitting on
Speaker 1: AI also will shit on social media.
Speaker 4: Mental health practitioners.
Speaker 2: Yeah, pop psychology, Yeah, who will porn? Which is what
Speaker 2: we do. It's different. Yeah, this is about movies.
Speaker 1: But these are the kind of people that will make
Speaker 1: a stitch on social media about maybe real people on
Speaker 1: a on a like a reality show and be like
Speaker 1: they have this, this, this and this, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you don't know that you haven't talked to this per
Speaker 1: at length. You're not there, You're not their doctor or
Speaker 1: their therapist. And those people also feel this misunderstanding that
Speaker 1: we as therapists have this almost psychic ability to read
Speaker 1: someone within like a conversation.
Speaker 3: Which, newsflash, we don't. Can we pick up on your aura, yes,
Speaker 3: yes we can. Can we figure out okay, something's going
Speaker 3: on here?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: But are we also using trained and practiced I at
Speaker 3: watching your effect, how you say things, what makes you squirm,
Speaker 3: what makes you tense, what changes your facial expression, your tone,
Speaker 3: what causes micro emotional releases or expressions? Yes, because we
Speaker 3: also have sat for thousands of hours with people and
Speaker 3: studying this, and we're trained on how to watch for
Speaker 3: the changes that are displayed. So there's a lot of
Speaker 3: unconscious movements that people do that we watch. But anybody
Speaker 3: that's saying I can fix you versus let's see if
Speaker 3: we can help but that will figure it out, is
Speaker 3: a clue to stay the flock away, or.
Speaker 1: That I can talk to you for five minutes, I
Speaker 1: know you have mommy issues or some shit, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like I can see within you and
Speaker 1: I know everything that's up with you. Yeah, it's so
Speaker 1: wild to make any of those to make any of
Speaker 1: those assumptions about a client. I think it's wild that
Speaker 1: therapists are diagnosing people who are on reality TV shows,
Speaker 1: like besides the fact that they are in a very
Speaker 1: specific environment and it's probably scripted, Like you literally have
Speaker 1: no idea this person could be. We could be only
Speaker 1: getting cuts of this one way that they act, like
Speaker 1: what the fuck are you even talking about? You have
Speaker 1: absolutely no idea what is going on? And thinking that
Speaker 1: and telling somebody that you have the answer and that
Speaker 1: you already know what it is and that you can
Speaker 1: help and read this book and then you'll be fine
Speaker 1: is wild and is completely unethical.
Speaker 4: It's unhelpful, it's.
Speaker 1: Unkind like it is what are you doing in this
Speaker 1: field if you think you know everything, because babe, you
Speaker 1: don't know shit.
Speaker 3: And learning what you don't know is the first thing
Speaker 3: that we're all taught by any good supervisor we ever
Speaker 3: had is okay, the first thing I want you to
Speaker 3: learn and tell me is what you don't know. I mean,
Speaker 3: you guys have worked with me in that capacity, and
Speaker 3: I probably can echo this is that because I had
Speaker 3: good supervisors. It's the supervisor I become as I'll sit
Speaker 3: with people and if I'm interviewing you, I'm like, I
Speaker 3: want to know why you do this. I want to
Speaker 3: know what you're good at, and I want to know
Speaker 3: what you're not good at. I want you to know
Speaker 3: that because you need to know how to to clients
Speaker 3: who you are and how you fit in the salad
Speaker 3: of therapy. As a tomato, you are not an end
Speaker 3: all be all, and people are like, oh no, I'm
Speaker 3: good at everything, Like bye, yeah, I'm not okay. So
Speaker 3: your homework is to go home. If I wasn't in
Speaker 3: charge of hiring your homework, because I would not hire
Speaker 3: that person. But you're your homework is to go home
Speaker 3: and tell me what you're not good at and what
Speaker 3: you don't know, because you don't. And none of us understand.
Speaker 3: The education we get on a great number of things
Speaker 3: in school does not remotely prepare you for reality. It
Speaker 3: prepares you to open your mind to learn and start seeing,
Speaker 3: but not be ready. And people are like.
Speaker 2: No, I'm a LBC, I just graduated. I'm ready to
Speaker 2: treat trauma. Bye.
Speaker 4: You don't know what you're talking about, babes, We don't know.
Speaker 1: Well. The social media therapist is probably the modern day
Speaker 1: version of this. Yeah, like Leo yes, Like they're the
Speaker 1: modern day version of like giving therapists a bad name,
Speaker 1: acting like they know every thing, doing it because they
Speaker 1: like attention, yeah, and seeming like they're a genius yeah,
Speaker 1: and liking the yeah, the power and the attention that
Speaker 1: that gives them, then actually practicing ethically right.
Speaker 3: And you know, I think hopefully people are hearing us say,
Speaker 3: even though we're doing media stuff, that what we're not
Speaker 3: doing and what we've never done is diagnosed real people. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And we've never offered comments on real people. We might
Speaker 3: say like fuck that person, but not a formal opinion
Speaker 3: or diagnosis. And I think it's critical to recognize the
Speaker 3: difference between We're looking at movies that show us a
Speaker 3: pretty intimate look into someone for two hours and give
Speaker 3: you an opportunity to explore an accelerated time frame that
Speaker 3: was deliberately crafted, but talking to real people is different.
Speaker 3: And the way people present on shows, yes, Hannah is
Speaker 3: it's it's scripted and or in couraged. I had a
Speaker 3: friend who was a producer on The Bachelor, like brag, No, yes, brag,
Speaker 3: all right, where's shit to throw a Brittany I need?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 1: And also too, it just makes us look bad as
Speaker 1: a as a as a provider.
Speaker 4: It makes us just look bad as a profession.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and people don't realize that you're the attention you're
Speaker 3: drawing to yourself is for the wrong reasons.
Speaker 1: And you can and you can smell the bullshit like
Speaker 1: you can smell clear bullshit. Well, you can smell like
Speaker 1: the It just also just belittle trust in what we do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that it makes people think that therapists or psychiatrists
Speaker 1: get into that work because they get they get the
Speaker 1: rocks off right in some capacity.
Speaker 3: All right, So clearly we have some opinions on a
Speaker 3: doctor Marvin type and some of the stuff we've seen
Speaker 3: in really but let's take a quick break here and
Speaker 3: we'll talk a little bit more about some of the
Speaker 3: things that might be driving Leo.
Speaker 2: So Leo Marvin.
Speaker 3: Clearly, we've hinted that we have some opinions that we're
Speaker 3: seeing some things that drive him.
Speaker 2: What's his deal?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think his deal is that he enjoys
Speaker 1: the status of being a psychiatrist, But I don't know
Speaker 1: how much he actually enjoys the ethical work of it,
Speaker 1: like the the humbling part of the work, which is
Speaker 1: that you are like a in my opinion, you are
Speaker 1: like a social like social serving kind of you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. Like you are you are a provider
Speaker 1: to the.
Speaker 4: People if you will.
Speaker 1: And it's not it shouldn't be about a claim because
Speaker 1: you get in your own way, like we've been talking about.
Speaker 1: And it also stifles you because I'll tell you this,
Speaker 1: baby steps, as he explained, it is booboo like baby
Speaker 1: steps is like CBT one oh one bullshit. It's nothing
Speaker 1: revolutionary as he's described it.
Speaker 3: No, and even by nineteen ninety one, CBT came out.
Speaker 3: In what the seventies, CBT and RBT came out around
Speaker 3: the same time the cognitive based things, and I think
Speaker 3: RBT was first, and then CBT. I think RBT was
Speaker 3: in the sixties, the late sixties, and CBT early seventies
Speaker 3: or around the same time. But either way, this should
Speaker 3: have been out for thirty years by this point, and
Speaker 3: he's absolutely not making anything revolutionary. But he certainly seems
Speaker 3: to be interested in surrounding himself with people that will
Speaker 3: provide an sense of grandiosity and self or otherwise obtained
Speaker 3: a grandization. And those start to sound a little bit
Speaker 3: like diagnostic words, do they not? What other things do
Speaker 3: we see from good old doctor Marvin. Do we see
Speaker 3: a pattern of grandiosity over one need for admiration, Yeah,
Speaker 3: a lack of empathy for others, particularly his son and
Speaker 3: Bob and the what's the name of the family?
Speaker 4: Oh, I don't remember.
Speaker 1: I just put down the local community hates Leo, but
Speaker 1: like the Bonnets or the Bennetts or something something like that.
Speaker 3: But you know, we're seeing grandiose self of a sense
Speaker 3: of self importance. Does anyone think Leo is better than
Speaker 3: Leo thinks Leo.
Speaker 1: Is, well, yeah, he definitely thinks he knows everything and
Speaker 1: well because also what's blinding him this whole movie. Is
Speaker 1: he so fixated on this Good Morning America interview and
Speaker 1: what it means to his book. And he was comparing
Speaker 1: himself to other people that have had these fancy situations happen.
Speaker 1: I can't remember who exactly he references, but doctor Ruth. Okay,
Speaker 1: keep saying doctor doctor Ruth also did an interview from
Speaker 1: her home or some sand vacation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she sucks, does she something like that? Yeah?
Speaker 4: I thought that was your opinion.
Speaker 1: No, I don't really know anything about doctor Ruth having
Speaker 1: firm opinion on her.
Speaker 2: No, he he is like trashing her a little bit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like no one can be better than him either.
Speaker 3: He only belongs in the elite company and he's the best,
Speaker 3: and he's most fixated on upholding that.
Speaker 1: And also like naming his kid Sigmund. So he's already
Speaker 1: setting up his kid, his son, to be a vessel
Speaker 1: for his own interests, his own identity. You know, he's
Speaker 1: he's already setting his kid up to not be his
Speaker 1: own person by giving him the name one of the
Speaker 1: most famous specific names there are.
Speaker 4: There's not like a lot of kids running around named Sigmund.
Speaker 2: Not in America. No, I've never heard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so also not thinking about the position he's putting
Speaker 1: his kid in by naming him. What's sicky is cute,
Speaker 1: but that's still like not common.
Speaker 3: So I'm starting to detect We're circling something here, what
Speaker 3: might be?
Speaker 2: What is it we might be circling here?
Speaker 4: Our scissistic personality disorder?
Speaker 3: What a grandiose self of self importance do we have that?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 3: Preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 3: not so much beauty or ideal love, but the other ones, Uh,
Speaker 3: belief that they are special and can only be understood
Speaker 3: by others, special or high status people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah for sure.
Speaker 1: The way he talks to his family too, Yeah, like
Speaker 1: they're all below.
Speaker 3: Him, require excessive admiration, absolutely, sense of entitlement, color perscon
Speaker 3: take advantage of others to achieve their own ends.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, does that what the book think? In
Speaker 1: the beginning of the book and also the whole his
Speaker 1: lack of comprehension about why the community hates him, like
Speaker 1: when he yells at that couple, all.
Speaker 2: Right, every right to buy this house, to buy this.
Speaker 1: House, like, having no concept of why he's I mean,
Speaker 1: it's the same thing we talk about with Bob, which
Speaker 1: is like this true like disconnect about how they make
Speaker 1: other people feel and how to relate to people.
Speaker 3: Lack of empathy, believes others are envious of them, although
Speaker 3: the couple is actually envious of him. But you know,
Speaker 3: show arrogant or haughty behaviors or attitudes.
Speaker 1: Absolutely couldn't be haughtier in those socks and those short shorts.
Speaker 2: What about the bucket head?
Speaker 1: The bucket I was a lot and I yeah, I
Speaker 1: think the whole diving situation with his son is such
Speaker 1: a good example of this. Like you are a psychotherapist,
Speaker 1: is how he portrays himself like a psychiatrist who does therapy.
Speaker 1: And yet the way that you're engaging with your son
Speaker 1: is not the way you're supposed to talk to a
Speaker 1: kid or anyone who's scared to do something. Is basically
Speaker 1: just like strong arming them and like berating them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's not being super encouraging, and even when he is,
Speaker 3: his patience runs out very quickly. And it's more about
Speaker 3: how the son reflects on him and whether or not
Speaker 3: he's able to help his son be successful than it
Speaker 3: is about his son being scared.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not about I want my kid to overcome
Speaker 1: this fear of diving because it'll help him feel actualized
Speaker 1: and empowered. It's yeah, the way he behaves is like,
Speaker 1: it looks bad on me that I have a son
Speaker 1: who can't dive. Who gives a shit if you're a
Speaker 1: kid can dive.
Speaker 4: Such a weird thing to want, but that's what to do. People.
Speaker 1: Ye, they get stuck on things, start mean things to
Speaker 1: them that don't make any sense, set or just kind
Speaker 1: of seem random.
Speaker 3: What also seemed like he made it unless I'm inventing it.
Speaker 3: He made a comment about because of the school his
Speaker 3: son goes to that this is like a thing that
Speaker 3: people do there and they have diving, and like they're
Speaker 3: in high society and you know, your son might be
Speaker 3: an Olympian or get scholarships or whatever. But it's like,
Speaker 3: you know, it's like it's a crew or polo or
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, I expected things at some private academy
Speaker 3: that has ivy on the fence.
Speaker 1: Well, he definitely Well, they make it very clear in
Speaker 1: the movie that he's one of those parents that was
Speaker 1: waiting to have a version of a son that he
Speaker 1: was a speculating he would have. They're not actually getting
Speaker 1: to know the son they actually have, the child they
Speaker 1: actually have.
Speaker 4: Because Siggy is wearing he's like a little.
Speaker 1: Goth, you know what I mean, Like he's wearing all
Speaker 1: black outside my favorite.
Speaker 4: I do love him.
Speaker 1: I love him and this Annon hook. This kid's attitude
Speaker 1: is my favorite. Yeah, he was just like fuck all, y'all.
Speaker 1: And and he's obsessed with death. He's kind of neurotic already.
Speaker 1: Like he is not an outdoor kid. He's not an
Speaker 1: outdoor kid. He's an indoor kid.
Speaker 2: He's listening to the cure. Guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's an indoor kid. And his dad doesn't either
Speaker 1: care about that, doesn't perceive that, disregards it. Like I
Speaker 1: feel like he doesn't even perceive it. I feel like
Speaker 1: he doesn't even look at his son truly, do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Puppet, Yeah, wearing all black.
Speaker 4: Look back at that puppet. Is it time to talk
Speaker 4: about the puppets? Guys?
Speaker 2: It might be time to talk about the puppets.
Speaker 3: So three was like, okay, two one, what the Hannah fuck?
Speaker 1: The puppets are so crazy, like so creepy weird, and
Speaker 1: like I know that's the point, but yeah, well and
Speaker 1: Brittany brought up as we were walking in, she brought up.
Speaker 1: Having them displayed like that in that way is also
Speaker 1: very odd.
Speaker 4: Like having them on the mantle. Having them on the mantle.
Speaker 1: Basically he just uses it to try to get them
Speaker 1: to believe him. Well, he uses it. It's like instead
Speaker 1: of being able to have like a hard heeart with
Speaker 1: his daughter, he got to bring the puppet out. It's
Speaker 1: like he can't get there with his daughter unless they're
Speaker 1: using the puppets as a which is also like, roxy,
Speaker 1: how are you a psychiatrist? If you don't, what are
Speaker 1: you doing? Well, he thinks he knows what he's doing right,
Speaker 1: Like he has he has convinced himself. I assume that
Speaker 1: using the puppets is the correct psychological way to get
Speaker 1: at quote unquote hard conversations instead of using actual social
Speaker 1: skills social intelligence, emotional intelligence, which is one that your
Speaker 1: daughter is way too.
Speaker 4: Fucking old to my using puddets.
Speaker 1: Two that she's out in the world you guys are
Speaker 1: like out at like the docks and stuff doing this,
Speaker 1: and then three like oh out in public, two public
Speaker 1: like a seventeen year old oor and just that that
Speaker 1: actually like gets in the way of the situation. But
Speaker 1: he's doing that thing people can do when they're up
Speaker 1: thrown butt, which is they everything that they're using that
Speaker 1: might actually be like an avoidance or like a crutch
Speaker 1: or something like that, is them having like a great idea.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think we're the writing on this is brilliant.
Speaker 3: In particular is that I think what this really is
Speaker 3: it's a I think it's a double joke because the
Speaker 3: director is Frank Oz, who is one of the most
Speaker 3: famous puppeteers in the world. He does Miss Piggy and Yoda,
Speaker 3: and Sam Niagle is a classic Henson guy. Him and
Speaker 3: Jim Henson were like the ones and twos of muppets,
Speaker 3: but also anaphroid used puppets all the time. So there's
Speaker 3: like a double self referencing joke here that the daughter's
Speaker 3: name is Anna and he's making her use puppets, and
Speaker 3: she used puppets. Although again with we covered Andofhoid was
Speaker 3: actually a brilliant child therapist. She pioneered a lot of
Speaker 3: work and some of her stuff is still used. But
Speaker 3: she would use toys to and puppets to help people
Speaker 3: talk and do one baby whisper or one dollar whisper
Speaker 3: at a time which I think we're really tying into
Speaker 3: some meta jokes here, which fits the throne of this movie.
Speaker 3: But as you see that also like the ick that
Speaker 3: you get from like, oh my god, can you imagine
Speaker 3: being a teenager and your dad being outside in short
Speaker 3: shorts all those ninety one so that probably is common,
Speaker 3: but still a teenager having your dad make you talk
Speaker 3: to him with a puppet outside where people are boating
Speaker 3: and looking at you because they have nothing fucking else
Speaker 3: to do, because they're not a boring ass lake.
Speaker 1: I would take that puppet and crush it and say,
Speaker 1: this is what you can do with your puppet.
Speaker 4: Asshole.
Speaker 1: Well, for me, that puppet wouldn't exist any longer, But
Speaker 1: at that time I was set. By the time I
Speaker 1: was seventeen, I would have destroyed that puppet in some capacity.
Speaker 1: I would have lit it on fire. We're thrown it away,
Speaker 1: we're up to apart. Maybe would have made a new one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But I think also there's a nice lake right there.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just so apad.
Speaker 1: I would have been like, you've got to be goddamn
Speaker 1: crazy if you think I'm about to talk like That's
Speaker 1: also something that's so interesting about this movie weird. Interesting
Speaker 1: is how much his family just goes along. They're so
Speaker 1: appeasing of everybody and so appeasing of him, Like the
Speaker 1: only one who really pushes back is Siggy, and the
Speaker 1: how like submissive almost like his I maybe we could
Speaker 1: get into a whole thing with that, like mom and daughter.
Speaker 1: I mean his wife and daughter are But also I
Speaker 1: think he does that thing which also I think sometimes
Speaker 1: happens in real life, but I think it is also
Speaker 1: a tell is when someone like him puts on their
Speaker 1: therapist hat to talk to people in their personal life.
Speaker 1: You know, like that's also totally distancing behavior. Though that's
Speaker 1: that's me saying I can't relate to you interpersonally, so
Speaker 1: I'm going to put on my therapist mask to talk
Speaker 1: to you. So it's a way to hide. And so
Speaker 1: it's actually like a distancing technique, a distancing strategy. It's
Speaker 1: not an intimacy strategy. And that's why, as people in
Speaker 1: my personal life probably know, like I don't, therapists me
Speaker 1: and person me are different, not me being like a
Speaker 1: whole different fake person. I'm a therapist, but the way
Speaker 1: I talk to clients, it's not the way I talk
Speaker 1: to people in my personal life because that would be
Speaker 1: I think, one, patronizing, but two it's like a distancing thing,
Speaker 1: like I'm putting myself in a different space than you.
Speaker 1: I'm removing myself from you personally. By putting on a
Speaker 1: therapist's voice. Was also very demeaning and and you can
Speaker 1: feel very cold, like if I was his daughter, I'd
Speaker 1: be like, talk to me like a fucking like you're
Speaker 1: my fucking dad. Like That's what pissed me off, maybe
Speaker 1: even more than the puppets is put that puppets away,
Speaker 1: because that means you're gonna be talking to me like
Speaker 1: doctor Marvin and not my fucking dad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's not winning here.
Speaker 3: It's it's really disturbing, creepy behavior, and you can see
Speaker 3: that he's struggling to connect, which yet again rings true
Speaker 3: of personality disorders, because you narcissistic personality disorder people are
Speaker 3: people that have that. One of the things that they're
Speaker 3: truly struggling with. Underneath all that is a deep fear
Speaker 3: that they are inadequate. And they go through all this
Speaker 3: effort and get completely intolerant of being exposed, and the
Speaker 3: behavior can ramp up drastically. You know, usually not to
Speaker 3: the point of tying bombs or on your patient's neck
Speaker 3: and trying to blow them up.
Speaker 1: But it is it is a clever way to hide,
Speaker 1: like it's a clever way to hide that you are struggling,
Speaker 1: that you are having in inadequacy, you know, like by
Speaker 1: putting on his expert hat. This also is like in
Speaker 1: Crueltians when in the very beginning with that therapist when
Speaker 1: her daughter's like, don't fucking talk to me, Like, I'm
Speaker 1: one of your fucking patients. And there are people that
Speaker 1: do that, Like I've been around enough therapists that I
Speaker 1: have run into therapists that I've tried to get to
Speaker 1: know personally that do that shit, and it puts me off.
Speaker 1: And I'm in the field, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And so I think, if nothing else, the fact that
Speaker 1: he has those puppets about his family, I think just
Speaker 1: says so much about how he he acts like the
Speaker 1: family therapist, the family psychiatrist, and not like their dad,
Speaker 1: which is also probably why he doesn't have a lot
Speaker 1: of actual clout when something like Bob happens where he
Speaker 1: because one thing that I can't understand about Leo is
Speaker 1: he's not wrong with how much he's like, Bob is
Speaker 1: not well, why are you hanging with Bob? Bob can't
Speaker 1: sleep in our son's room, Bob has to go home,
Speaker 1: Bob can't go voting with you. Like, he's not wrong,
Speaker 1: but I think he has demoralized his position in the
Speaker 1: family so much that they don't take him seriously in
Speaker 1: that way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're right. I think that they're so
Speaker 3: sick of that expert model that they're just even passively
Speaker 3: resisting it. And they're like, nah, Bro, we don't even care.
Speaker 3: Like Bob's nice, Bob is fun. I think that was
Speaker 3: the thing that they like used it and like Bob
Speaker 3: is fun and and I can be fun.
Speaker 2: I'm fun? Am I fun?
Speaker 1: Well he's using he's using their whole vacation as like
Speaker 1: to get ready for his photo shoot interview, Like their
Speaker 1: vacation gets co opted by by that too, which I
Speaker 1: feel like also a teenager, the two kids would have
Speaker 1: more of us think about that in real life too,
Speaker 1: like fuck you, we don't even have a real vacation.
Speaker 1: You're just I'm a prop right, his daughter is not
Speaker 1: mean enough. I could really pump that.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, oh yeah for sure.
Speaker 3: Oh and the one thing that the daughter said, I
Speaker 3: am thinking about this having an eight year old and
Speaker 3: a two year old, like or having eight year old
Speaker 3: and two year od daughters. Right when he was like
Speaker 3: asking them about like should I put the gun up
Speaker 3: or like the Puppets or like the bust or whatever,
Speaker 3: and like I about fell out of my chair laughing
Speaker 3: when she was like, no, Day, you should put up
Speaker 3: the gun. It makes you like it, but it communicates virility,
Speaker 3: Like what teenager would.
Speaker 4: That in Cosmo?
Speaker 3: But what what teenager would say that with a degree
Speaker 3: of encouragement and not roasting your bitch ass. And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 3: maybe it's clear you're having some virility problems. Maybe you
Speaker 3: should use the gun. That I could see a teenage
Speaker 3: girl saying to a parent not oh yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. That totally was like, I mean, I know it's
Speaker 2: a joke, but like, goddamn well.
Speaker 1: And also, if he really is someone with NPD and
Speaker 1: we don't know, I mean, he goes he literally has
Speaker 1: like a psychotic break in this movie, you.
Speaker 2: Know, but oh yeah, he goes catatonic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if he's someone that maybe does have tantrums
Speaker 1: fits whatever at home, which would be more aligned with
Speaker 1: someone who actually has NPD.
Speaker 4: Then you could argue that, like.
Speaker 1: All these responses that his wife and daughter giving him
Speaker 1: specifically is like fawning, right, they're just trying to appease him,
Speaker 1: make him feel good, because if dad feels good, then
Speaker 1: it's chill and he makes money. So we'll just, you know,
Speaker 1: we'll just focus on the fact that he provides for
Speaker 1: us when we get nice stuff, and we'll just suck
Speaker 1: up to him so that everything's copastic. We'll use his
Speaker 1: fucking puppets when he wants to use the fucking puppets.
Speaker 2: I don't think you're wrong. I don't think you're slightly wrong.
Speaker 3: I think that's a very relevant perspective here, because they
Speaker 3: are trying to survive too, and if he's going to
Speaker 3: be ridiculous and level up, and maybe I don't know,
Speaker 3: ty gunpowder satchels around their necks, if they're not compliant,
Speaker 3: maybe it's easier to compliment them.
Speaker 1: I will say there were a few things that he
Speaker 1: does do that I wanted to highlight as provider appropriate,
Speaker 1: you know, because this movie does that thing where I
Speaker 1: think they try to legitimize him by having him do
Speaker 1: enough things that an actual provider would do.
Speaker 2: In the beginning in the.
Speaker 3: First beginning second acts of the movie, absolutely when he's like, yeah.
Speaker 1: Like he provides a temporary provider for Bob when he's
Speaker 1: going to go on vacation. He's like, you can talk
Speaker 1: to doctor et cetera while I'm on vacation.
Speaker 4: Which is something that you do, especially when you.
Speaker 1: Have clientele that you know need someone they can reach
Speaker 1: out to, like they're more crisis oriented or high level,
Speaker 1: Like even if you're going to go away for like
Speaker 1: a long weekend, you might need to provide a touch
Speaker 1: person that they can get in contact with, especially someone
Speaker 1: who's unknown to him supposedly like Bob. He also tells
Speaker 1: Bob to go to the er when he first calls him,
Speaker 1: right when he's on vacation, and he's like he tries
Speaker 1: to have boundaries with him in the beginning, which isn't
Speaker 1: bad either. And I will say him pointing out that
Speaker 1: it was a positive when Bob made it all the
Speaker 1: way to the vacation home would also be something I
Speaker 1: could see me doing, Well, you know, it's great that
Speaker 1: you made it all the way here, like with your
Speaker 1: recophobia and stuff, like framing them as a positive and
Speaker 1: then also trying to set boundaries again, like go home, Bob. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but go home, Bob, I'll.
Speaker 2: Call you in three hours. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But something he doesn't do, which I think is more
Speaker 1: the movie than necessarily even anything about Leo, unless you
Speaker 1: guys think differently, is no one takes Bob seriously enough.
Speaker 1: Like if I was in Leo's position and I had
Speaker 1: a client who was new to me, who's already done
Speaker 1: all this like stocky stuff to me, and my family's there,
Speaker 1: like the fact that like there's no conversation around, like Bob,
Speaker 1: if you don't go, I will have to call the police,
Speaker 1: Like you have to show me that you have control
Speaker 1: over yourself. You know, someone like Bob would probably get
Speaker 1: hospitalized very quickly into the and then there wouldn't be
Speaker 1: a movie. But someone presenting like Bob with their psychiatrists
Speaker 1: would get hospitalized. Oh well he got hospitals out of
Speaker 1: spite very late into the movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he got hospitalized.
Speaker 1: And there's no and maybe this is the ego part
Speaker 1: of Leo, but there's no urgency around how what is
Speaker 1: actually concerning about Bob is how unpredictable he is, how
Speaker 1: far he's willing to go. He's an unknown quantity to
Speaker 1: Leo other than what he's showing Leo, which is that
Speaker 1: I don't have boundaries. I don't know when to say no,
Speaker 1: I don't accept no as an answer. I don't know
Speaker 1: how far I'll go hang out with you, I'll go
Speaker 1: find your kids if I can't have access to you.
Speaker 1: And that is really troubling, and Leo gives him a
Speaker 1: lot of opportunities to turn it around and he doesn't.
Speaker 3: True, But because the movie is the movie, I do
Speaker 3: feel like in this there's like some interesting caveats. Is
Speaker 3: that Bob did comply, but Bob was easily tilted back
Speaker 3: by the old married couple and his daughter because remember
Speaker 3: Bob was just gonna walk.
Speaker 2: Bob left.
Speaker 3: He did comply, and the daughter picked him up all
Speaker 3: by herself.
Speaker 2: That was her own doing, and that you know, like
Speaker 2: looped things back in which.
Speaker 3: If it were my daughter and also surrounded forever, that
Speaker 3: feels bizarre too.
Speaker 1: And maybe it's the nineties, I don't know, but I
Speaker 1: feel like nowadays so weird. If I was with my
Speaker 1: family and someone that they knew was one of my
Speaker 1: clients just shut up out of the blue and was
Speaker 1: acting against what I was saying to them, I think
Speaker 1: they'd be more troubled than like curious or like hey, Bob,
Speaker 1: don't get discouraged. They would be like, uh, we saw
Speaker 1: that guy on the street. You might need to call
Speaker 1: the cops, or you might have to call someone because
Speaker 1: I think he needs help.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 3: I think i'd have, you know, probably need to come
Speaker 3: over with a handsdal from my wife. That means immediately
Speaker 3: call the police. Let's take a break. How have we
Speaker 3: not talked about the fact that Bob said he was
Speaker 3: fucking dead. Then Leo got the call that Bob killed
Speaker 3: himself and he's like.
Speaker 4: Oh that okay, I gotta be real.
Speaker 1: That made me laugh when he because because it's supposed
Speaker 1: to make you laugh, right, when Leo gets that call
Speaker 1: and he says, oh to his wife that kind of
Speaker 1: his head kill himself, Okay, Like I did laugh because
Speaker 1: it was so absurd, like the the mood change or
Speaker 1: the mood shift. But I think that just says more
Speaker 1: about Leo and his bullshit.
Speaker 2: Leo like his response.
Speaker 4: His response is insane.
Speaker 3: It's insane, it's super narcissistic, like all all but got
Speaker 3: to get my beauty sleep for the interview.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like it just sees my brain and I do
Speaker 1: think there's a certain level of compartmentalizing we do at
Speaker 1: this job because you kind of have to. But even
Speaker 1: if I only met with someone once, it would still
Speaker 1: like shake me like that would probably if nothing else,
Speaker 1: lay awake in bed for like another hour, just kind
Speaker 1: of thinking about it.
Speaker 3: Let me speak to someone that does has happened to
Speaker 3: all of those things. And it was the real deal
Speaker 3: for me. I got I had seen a person once
Speaker 3: and that was it. And Leo's response was ridiculous, we'd
Speaker 3: get messed up that even if you only see one once,
Speaker 3: you won't feel responsible. But still you're not going to
Speaker 3: just be like clap on, clap off. No, it's gonna
Speaker 3: mess you up, and you're gonna wonder and you're gonna
Speaker 3: be anxious and upset. And if you have any degree
Speaker 3: of empathy as a human, you know, somebody died and
Speaker 3: you probably won't feel like you could help them if
Speaker 3: you're a reasonable human. But it's still going across your
Speaker 3: mind and you're gonna be able to talk yourself out
Speaker 3: of it the first you know, five minutes, you're gonna
Speaker 3: be oh my god, what did I miss?
Speaker 2: And Leo's just like, well.
Speaker 1: That was definitely a point in the rioting to show
Speaker 1: us that Leo is a bus of shits.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and also that.
Speaker 1: He says, well, we're not gonna let it ruin our
Speaker 1: vacationer the bar.
Speaker 4: Fuck yeah, that quick.
Speaker 1: I don't fucking think so, Bro, you would be I
Speaker 1: would be a fucking wreck.
Speaker 2: No, I would be a wreck.
Speaker 4: How could you not be?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 4: And also because no.
Speaker 3: You get messed up with human you can associated. I
Speaker 3: associated for a bit, I bet, like when I happened again,
Speaker 3: I felt terrible. But anybody I know that that's happened
Speaker 3: to because it will happen to all of us. They
Speaker 3: tell you in school, is gonna happen to you. And
Speaker 3: that Leo was such a piece of shit about it
Speaker 3: offended me as a therapist, But I mean he's supposed to.
Speaker 2: He's literally the fucking worst. Hey, it's the worst.
Speaker 1: Because I think a through line through all of it,
Speaker 1: like I said, is that he doesn't take Bob's erraticism seriously,
Speaker 1: like even in the office, like I can see when
Speaker 1: he first meets Bob and Bob's like rolling around on
Speaker 1: the ground, Like I don't think it's a bad response
Speaker 1: to not get caught up in that you know, like
Speaker 1: I could definitely see me. Especially if I think this
Speaker 1: is like a tension seeking behavior, it's not a bad
Speaker 1: therapeutic response to not get caught up in it. So
Speaker 1: just kind of the what he does there, which is
Speaker 1: just kind of sits there and waits for him to
Speaker 1: be done doing whatever he's doing, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: that's that's appropriate if you know the client and you
Speaker 1: know why they do that, right, And I've worked with
Speaker 1: plenty of kids where I'm like, I'm not gonna get
Speaker 1: riled up by whatever you think you're doing. But like saying,
Speaker 1: like throughout this whole movie, he's not taking it seriously,
Speaker 1: and even like this, he's not taking that seriously or
Speaker 1: even doing the thing, which is a little more self serving,
Speaker 1: but I think also happens to therapist when you get
Speaker 1: in your head about did I miss something?
Speaker 2: Did I fuck up?
Speaker 1: Even if you're worried about your own ass, the fact
Speaker 1: that he just is so off his own I mean,
Speaker 1: this goes back to the ego part, right, Like he
Speaker 1: doesn't even have that beat of like, oh shit, I'm
Speaker 1: the last point of contact that this guy had before
Speaker 1: he died by suicide. Did I miss something up? Did
Speaker 1: I miss something. Am I going to get in trouble?
Speaker 1: And the only time he takes Bob seriously in terms
Speaker 1: of like go to the hospital is that despite because
Speaker 1: Bob is ruining his life and not because Bob needs
Speaker 1: to be in the hospital, because he is making a
Speaker 1: lot of impulsive, inappropriate, potentially dangerous choices.
Speaker 4: Where he could be harming himself for someone else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he didn't even.
Speaker 3: Rationally explain that he's just like dropped if at the hospital,
Speaker 3: which means the psychiatrist there did the appropriate thing of
Speaker 3: they assessed him. All the staff everyone is like, he's fine,
Speaker 3: I can't keep him here.
Speaker 1: Well, that psych doctor was she was actually a real
Speaker 1: one in this movie, and that she assesses him as
Speaker 1: like a favor quote unquote to doctor Leo. But also
Speaker 1: I could see him being like, I'm gonna trust you
Speaker 1: that you're bringing someone in because he's acting.
Speaker 4: Who knows what Leo.
Speaker 1: Told her really, But she goes she like in thirty seconds,
Speaker 1: she does a better job of being a psych provider
Speaker 1: than he does. Where she goes, nothing's wrong with him,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to keep him here at your request.
Speaker 1: If I've assessed that he's fine, I'm going to let
Speaker 1: you off the hook for this because this could be
Speaker 1: your ass. Like she also does him a favor by saying,
Speaker 1: like you can get him now or you cannot, and
Speaker 1: then we're gonna have a problem basically like I'm not
Speaker 1: like I'm And then she also says you shouldn't let
Speaker 1: him sleep in your pajamas. So she also says to him,
Speaker 1: this is your fault too. You blurred the lines with him,
Speaker 1: and so now it's weird. Now it's weird, and that's
Speaker 1: and now you're done putting up with him. So now
Speaker 1: he is to go to hospital when you reinforce this
Speaker 1: this relationship. Just how truly irresponsible he is in most
Speaker 1: aspects of portraying this and just what uh what a
Speaker 1: fucking asshole, you know, like a shit for brains? Yeah,
Speaker 1: just like what are you again? Like what are you
Speaker 1: doing in this field? Well, and with someone like Bob,
Speaker 1: how much mixed messaging he's giving him exactly need to
Speaker 1: go away, but I'll talk to you once, like you
Speaker 1: need to go away, but you can sleep in his bedroom.
Speaker 1: If someone had the diagnoses that we're giving to Bob
Speaker 1: and they were truly in distress in a real way,
Speaker 1: blowing them off or reinforcing their behavior is such.
Speaker 4: It's like the opposite of what you should be doing.
Speaker 2: Like that's what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like it's so comically bad. He's such an awful provider
Speaker 1: he has.
Speaker 2: It's so.
Speaker 1: Blatant with like no no sense of any consequences, well
Speaker 1: of any kind. It's just like wild to see that
Speaker 1: kind of dismissive person.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Bob should have been hospitalized immediately. Someone is that
Speaker 3: unwell that they're not perceiving consequences, they're showing an inability
Speaker 3: to care for self, detachment from reality that this is okay.
Speaker 3: Probably should be hospitalized at least evaluated at a hospital immediately,
Speaker 3: not dismissed, not out of your sight, Call an ambulance,
Speaker 3: get him on it, so that he is now adequately
Speaker 3: cared for and in the hands of someone else. But
Speaker 3: if he shows up on your doorstep, yeah, if he's
Speaker 3: not being unsafe, you can, you know, get him into
Speaker 3: an ambulance.
Speaker 2: But he hasn't got to go to the hospital.
Speaker 1: And also, one thing he never says to Bob, which
Speaker 1: is maybe neither here nor they're given the context is Bob,
Speaker 1: if you really want to work with me, if you
Speaker 1: really want to work with me after this, Like in
Speaker 1: the very beginning of this movie, like when he first
Speaker 1: shows up, we can't be friends, we can't hang out,
Speaker 1: we can't have a dual relationship. So he doesn't even
Speaker 1: try to meet Bob, where maybe Bob is thinking like
Speaker 1: buy in from Bob, Like if I was really going
Speaker 1: to give Bob the benefit of the doubt and be like, hey, buddy,
Speaker 1: it seems like you really want to work with me,
Speaker 1: that's great. And if we develop this personal dynamic because
Speaker 1: you're here on vacation where I am, and if.
Speaker 4: When he says like we don't have to work, we
Speaker 4: can just be friends.
Speaker 1: What he says that later in the movie, I think
Speaker 1: it says so much about how silly, stupid whatever Leo
Speaker 1: is that he doesn't use that to his advantage in
Speaker 1: a therapeutic way of like, hey, you really want to
Speaker 1: work with me, that's great. And if you can't go away, basically,
Speaker 1: if you can't keep our relationship professional, we can't work together.
Speaker 1: You you're gonna poison it. And once we have this
Speaker 1: personal dynamic, we I can't be your psychiatrists at all.
Speaker 1: And he doesn't even bring up that part of it
Speaker 1: that like what's inappropriate is like the dual relationship aspect
Speaker 1: of nothing else, none of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so seems like we're pretty pretty clear here that
Speaker 3: Leo Marvin is up there with among the worst psych providers,
Speaker 3: the worst examples.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean he tries to kill him by the end,
Speaker 1: so we haven't even talked about that part he tries
Speaker 1: to He just tried.
Speaker 2: To trust.
Speaker 3: Him up, like yeah, well and then here's where it
Speaker 3: gets like good, the epilogue little PostScript thing made me
Speaker 3: fucking die laughing.
Speaker 2: That was brilliant comedy. That Bob marries his sister.
Speaker 3: And went back to school to become a psychologist and
Speaker 3: invent and then wrote a book called death Therapy because
Speaker 3: he thought what Leo was trying to do to him
Speaker 3: wasn't kill him, but teach him to overcome his fear
Speaker 3: of death, like exposure therapy, exposure therapy and prolonged exposure
Speaker 3: therapy in particular. Right, but Leo Marvin was suing him
Speaker 3: for the rights like absolute narcissistic personality move like oh no,
Speaker 3: you can't use the thing I invented.
Speaker 2: To try to kill you. I was having a psychotic
Speaker 2: break trying to kill you. You blew up my house
Speaker 2: and now I'm going to sue you for the rights
Speaker 2: of the method. I almost killed you with what.
Speaker 1: Well, it's that thing whereas he has if he has NPD,
Speaker 1: which is he can't lose, he cannot do it. He
Speaker 1: cannot give ground or anything he perceives as losing, and
Speaker 1: he can't lose to Bob. I mean, that's where this
Speaker 1: movie goes, is he can't lose to Bob. And Bob
Speaker 1: also fucked up the interview. Bob was getting more of
Speaker 1: the attention, like we didn't even talk about all that
Speaker 1: stuff like the good Morning American.
Speaker 4: Right like a beat that's the movie Bingers.
Speaker 1: And just talk about it in chronological order. But like
Speaker 1: even that part him saying that Bob's my patient, having
Speaker 1: Bob there, like.
Speaker 4: The way this hip hop was hip a thing in
Speaker 4: nineteen nine.
Speaker 1: It was ninety six, okay, but but still, like like
Speaker 1: I said, once again, this mixed messaging he's sending Bob,
Speaker 1: which is so irresponsible of like he's doing that push
Speaker 1: pull thing that will mix them with personal disorder. Go
Speaker 1: absolutely batchit and not their fault, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like that really fucks with someone with person disorder, which
Speaker 1: is like go away.
Speaker 4: But you can sit here, next meeting, there's interview. Go away.
Speaker 4: You can sleep in my pajamas in my kid's bedroom.
Speaker 2: Oh no, Bob identified himself. He said he's a local
Speaker 2: man and Bob'sadva's patient.
Speaker 4: Oh okay.
Speaker 2: Bob identified himself, and the producer grabbed him.
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, you have a patient here, you're seeing patient,
Speaker 3: and since you're home, like yeah, and Leo couldn't then
Speaker 3: break face and just go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm sorry, No, he's he's not part of this.
Speaker 4: But then it becomes that thing of like who's gonna
Speaker 4: win me or Bob?
Speaker 2: And also how do I keep the attention?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I gotta boom. I gotta boom the fuck up.
Speaker 2: And save face.
Speaker 4: I gotta blow him up. The only way he kills him.
Speaker 2: I gotta kill you now, buddy, not shoot him. It's
Speaker 2: too messy.
Speaker 1: That's when he starts to do that in the movie,
Speaker 1: which I didn't remember this part at all. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't remember that I went this this far. But he's
Speaker 1: like talking, He's like that'd be too much. I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, he's gonna trying to kill Bob.
Speaker 4: He has lost his mind, Like he has lost his mind. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but anyway, should we take a break here and be back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're at one. I don't even know if we need.
Speaker 4: To do treatment. I think we've done a lot of
Speaker 4: this is what you don't do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think this is a treatment movie. I
Speaker 3: think this is a how did not be doctor Leo asshole?
Speaker 1: Instead of doing treatment, we're just gonna basically reiterate that
Speaker 1: everything that Leo does in this movie is a therapist, psychiatrist, whatever.
Speaker 2: Don't do that.
Speaker 4: Everything he's doing isn't helpful for.
Speaker 1: Someone like Bob. Is the version of exposure therapy that
Speaker 1: could work if he is OCD like we speculate, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but not this.
Speaker 4: Well, it's not exposure therapy. He's trying to.
Speaker 2: He's trying to get therapy.
Speaker 4: It's death therapy.
Speaker 1: You know what you should do if you're if you're
Speaker 1: client scared of death, bury him alive in.
Speaker 2: A box in a box, to bury you alive in
Speaker 2: a box.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like, yeah, so don't do what Leo
Speaker 1: does honestly with someone like Bob. I guess the only
Speaker 1: thing I would say for treatment is he could probably
Speaker 1: benefit from a community mental health agency where like he
Speaker 1: gets visited on a regular basis by someone yes, who
Speaker 1: knows how to boundaries with him, like he'd be I
Speaker 1: work for Thresholds.
Speaker 4: I think he'd be a good threshold member.
Speaker 1: Like we definitely work with people like Bob where they
Speaker 1: just don't have like the best social skills. They because
Speaker 1: they have stuff going on mental health wise that their
Speaker 1: life small or their world small, or like they have
Speaker 1: trouble making community getting their needs met.
Speaker 2: So and like he actually lives in.
Speaker 1: A room that's very similar to like rooms we've had
Speaker 1: to visit people in like single room occupancies SROs Elwood.
Speaker 3: Blues was in one of the rooms you guys almost
Speaker 3: certainly went to in the Blues Brothers.
Speaker 2: So these this kind of room was featured a lot
Speaker 2: in movies of this era.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he he would really benefit and I think
Speaker 1: he would probably do really well with having social workers
Speaker 1: who come to his place, encourage him to go out
Speaker 1: in the world, are with him like a lot, like
Speaker 1: with him if he wants to ride the bus, will
Speaker 1: take in places like it's a very wrap around the
Speaker 1: kind of service where we help people who struggle to
Speaker 1: be in the world independently get like social interaction, get
Speaker 1: community interaction, get their needs met like we help them
Speaker 1: kind of with the baby step stuff actually, like we'll
Speaker 1: ride the train with you, yeah, the l with you,
Speaker 1: and then maybe you can try on your own yep,
Speaker 1: And so I think he would really benefit from something
Speaker 1: like that. I think him going to this like fancy
Speaker 1: outpatient psychiatrist is not the right setting for someone like
Speaker 1: Bob at all, even from like an affordability sense, but
Speaker 1: just because that's not really what he needs. Like maybe
Speaker 1: Leo could give him medication. Maybe that's about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I think Bob clearly needs multiple layers, and
Speaker 3: more on the social work end probably than on the
Speaker 3: therapy end. Heuld probably benefit from both, but the full
Speaker 3: wrap around of medical, counseling, psychological, and social work. There's
Speaker 3: all professions covered a little bit different of an angle.
Speaker 3: The social work end is what you're talking about with
Speaker 3: community mental health think really that's more social work is
Speaker 3: geared to do, how do we help you access services
Speaker 3: and break down barriers to the systems that are full
Speaker 3: of barriers and nonsense for chronically ill people, like proving
Speaker 3: you are chronically ill every year with an illness that
Speaker 3: everyone else knows goes away or never goes away. Apologies Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's I think it's a brilliant idea for Bob, and
Speaker 3: I don't really have anything to add on to it
Speaker 3: beyond that because it's brilliant.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the perfect response for someone like Bob.
Speaker 1: I think it would be really I think it would
Speaker 1: be really helpful. I think it would really give him
Speaker 1: a lot of opportunities to experience things in a different
Speaker 1: way versus the way that he perceives things, Like I
Speaker 1: think it would be really helpful to have somebody with
Speaker 1: him and going with him out in the world. I
Speaker 1: think it would really I really don't think there'd be
Speaker 1: a better treatment for Bob. And it's an opportunity to
Speaker 1: get more in the real world social guidance, like with
Speaker 1: people like Bob, Like I would do a lot of
Speaker 1: like hey, actual, Like that's not the way that you
Speaker 1: want to ask for that, Like, hey, actually, like this
Speaker 1: is how it feels when you do that instead of that,
Speaker 1: Like it allows for a lot more real world experiences
Speaker 1: and where you can help guide them gently and correct
Speaker 1: them as needed in terms of like the social skills
Speaker 1: stuff that he has trouble with. Like, I've had a
Speaker 1: lot of conversations with people about boundaries in the work
Speaker 1: that we've done, to the point that we had one
Speaker 1: person we worked with who would just as kind of
Speaker 1: a joke but not really would always say boundaries at
Speaker 1: me because she knew I was gonna say it first.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no tricks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, let's take a break care and me back
Speaker 1: with final thoughts. So who wants to go first?
Speaker 4: Talk about what about Bob? I'll go first.
Speaker 1: So I feel like in another life, I've watched this
Speaker 1: movie a lot of times. I'm not really sure why,
Speaker 1: but I watched it and realize that I know this
Speaker 1: movie really well and did not realize that. So I
Speaker 1: don't know that I'll watch it again, just because I
Speaker 1: hadn't watched it in probably fifteen years. So I don't
Speaker 1: know that I will seek it out, especially because Leo
Speaker 1: is such an abomination of a provider. It's like uncomfortable
Speaker 1: to sit through. So I don't think I would watched
Speaker 1: the movie again. I did enjoy watching it. I do
Speaker 1: love Bill Murray the end I can go next. I
Speaker 1: bought this movie for seven ninety nine, so I probably
Speaker 1: should watch it again because oh, I resisted that one
Speaker 1: oh in this.
Speaker 4: Motion picture.
Speaker 1: Because I have such fun memories as to get watching it.
Speaker 1: This was definitely like a TBST and T movie, like
Speaker 1: maybe that was on TV oh.
Speaker 2: All the time, all the time, And they definitely cut
Speaker 2: some stuff out.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh for sure, and so can I.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'll really revisit this movie at
Speaker 1: my leisure. Bill Murray does crack my shit up, and
Speaker 1: there were parts of this movie that did crack me up.
Speaker 1: Like I've told you guys many times, I want his
Speaker 1: shirt that says, don't hassle me, I'm a local, so bad,
Speaker 1: so bad in that obnoxious nineties day cloass colors.
Speaker 2: Brittany, I think somebody can probably make that happen for you.
Speaker 1: Please someone, please send it to me, please one of us.
Speaker 1: But but I will say it's like a funny movie.
Speaker 1: If it wasn't so close to what we did, maybe
Speaker 1: I could enjoy it more. But it definitely is a
Speaker 1: movie that's just trying to like be haha, and the
Speaker 1: the plot devices are just unfortunately so close to what
Speaker 1: we actually do and have such like bad repercussions in
Speaker 1: terms of like.
Speaker 4: The stuff we do.
Speaker 1: So I would say it's a funny movie. They are
Speaker 1: parts of the genuinely made me laugh. I liked when
Speaker 1: he was tied to the sailboat mast and he was like,
Speaker 1: I'm sailing. Like, you're not sailing, dude, you are tied
Speaker 1: to a boat. So Bill Murray is hilarious and I
Speaker 1: do love Bill Murray. I have to fight my love
Speaker 1: of him. You guy should watch Bill Murray's Christmas special
Speaker 1: on at Flex if you're interested.
Speaker 2: Oh that's wild.
Speaker 4: But I don't know if I'll revisit this movie anytime soon.
Speaker 1: Just and also Richard Dreyfus, like something about him bristles
Speaker 1: mey same hate him.
Speaker 4: But that's all I have to say about that.
Speaker 2: You know, those two are only three years apart. Soccer Blue.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 2: Wow, three years apart? Really yep?
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 4: I guess when you sua de vive it, you know,
Speaker 4: keeps you young.
Speaker 2: I guess you don't or he does. I don't know,
Speaker 2: but but so I love this movie.
Speaker 3: I don't know how much I'll watch it, but I
Speaker 3: think it passed the test of a all time comedy.
Speaker 3: That my wife watched it and was laughing and like chartling.
Speaker 1: She can.
Speaker 3: My wife has a great sense of humor, but she
Speaker 3: can also be a harsh judge. I don't know She's
Speaker 3: not like a person that sits there and goes haha
Speaker 3: or this isn't funny. But for her do they say,
Speaker 3: sit and enjoy a comedy. It's going to be a
Speaker 3: good one. And this one past that test. This is
Speaker 3: a good one. It's really funny. But I share the
Speaker 3: same sentiment because I do what I do now because
Speaker 3: it's represented so.
Speaker 2: Terribly, it bugs me a little bit.
Speaker 3: But at least it was done deliberately, as opposed to
Speaker 3: like every other show where they include a therapist and like,
Speaker 3: wouldn't it be wild if we had the therapists fall
Speaker 3: in love with their client again?
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, like Leo is is also a cartoon.
Speaker 2: He's a cartoon.
Speaker 4: I mean, he makes it more it's a it's a
Speaker 4: cartoon movie.
Speaker 2: He turns into Wiley movie. It's for real, like literally
Speaker 2: goes to the Acme starre.
Speaker 4: I mean her.
Speaker 2: Stop, I mean, yeah, nuts, and he starts monologuing. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's just it's glorious in the way they did it.
Speaker 3: It's obvious, it's absurd, and that they're flipping the script
Speaker 3: and the like Bob becomes the therapist is fucking hilarious.
Speaker 3: So I mean, I'll probably watch the movie, and I
Speaker 3: just it might be another fifteen years, but it is
Speaker 3: worth the watch. It's worth the entertainment. Bill Murray is
Speaker 3: a treasure, even though he was apparently a giant asshole
Speaker 3: onness and Richard Dreyfus was mad at him.
Speaker 2: For thirty four years.
Speaker 3: Wow, he did not forgive him until twenty twenty five
Speaker 3: last year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, damn, holy fuck. He was upset. But I mean
Speaker 2: also through an ashtray his face. Yeah, that's like, it's
Speaker 2: a lot. It was screaming, like, if you are a good.
Speaker 4: Actor, you don't have to do that kind of shit.
Speaker 4: You don't have to be a mania.
Speaker 1: Just act when they say to act, Yeah.
Speaker 4: You don't have to be berserker.
Speaker 3: Well that was off. That wasn't cameras rolling. That was
Speaker 3: like on the set he was being like a bullying kid.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, we'll wrap up here as always if
Speaker 1: you would like to find us. We're not super active
Speaker 1: on social media anymore because all social media is starting
Speaker 1: to be occupied by technocrat horrible monsters. So right now
Speaker 1: we're really only still on Instagram and Facebook at Popcorn Psychology.
Speaker 4: You can always email us, though.
Speaker 2: It would be we would respond.
Speaker 1: To you at popropsychologygmail dot com.
Speaker 4: That's a direct way to get to us.
Speaker 1: If you want to patronize us in any way, you
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