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Speaker 1: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster

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movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and

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I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by.

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Speaker 2: Ben Stover, individual therapist.

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Speaker 1: Hannah Espinozo, marriage and family therapists. We're all licensed clinical

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professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice out of Chicago.

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Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast

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is purely for entertainment purposes and to fulfill our love

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of dissecting pop culture and all forms.

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Speaker 3: Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,

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we aren't your therapist.

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Speaker 1: If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find

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a local mental health provider. I feel good, I feel great,

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I feel wonderful, guys, And just like that, we're talking

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about what about Bob today, y'all.

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Speaker 4: We're finally doing it, y'all.

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Speaker 3: We've only talked about doing this one for eight years,

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so it's a good thing.

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Speaker 1: We're doing every season, every season we have talked about this.

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It's incredible excited. So this is our official start to

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season nine. Correct, Yes, this is our official start to

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season nine. We're finally discussing what about Bob, the patron

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saint of this podcast. I haven't watched this movie since

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I was a kid. What about you, guys. I also

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haven't watched this movie since I was a kid, but

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I remember it pretty clearly. Honestly, I was a little

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surprised by how well I remembered it.

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Speaker 3: I watched it first, I think on a band trip

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on the bus sure, of course, because our band director

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was a interesting fellow and liked movies like this. We

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watched this in Austin powers on said trip. I think

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it was to Saint Louis for this one. And the

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last time I watched it, I think I was in

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my psychology and film class at Eastern Illinois, which is

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more years ago then we're going to quantify.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Speaker 1: This movie it came out in nineteen ninety one. It

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stars Bill Murray and Richard Dreyfuss, and it's about a

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guy named Bob who has a collection of mental health

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stuff that we will talk about, who goes to see

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a new psychotherapist I think is his official title in

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the movie, doctor Leo Marvin, And that is the movie

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Bob follows him to on his vacation. That's all the

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part I really remembered is a patient follows his psychiatrist

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on vacation. Not remembering that and watching it now that

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Bob meets this guy for ten minutes maybe less in

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his office, imprints on him like a duck, and then

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follows him for the next several days on vacation. So yes,

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we'll be talking about just Bob and Leo. We'll be

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taking turns talking about Bob first and the mental health

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soup that is his character, and then we'll be talking

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about Leo. Doctor Leo Marvin as a typical sort of

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stereotype of like a narcissistic therapist, as I feel like

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they were portrayed a lot in the eighties and nineties,

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like a frasier up their own ass. It actually kind

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of made me think of when we did Cruel Intentions

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the Therapist in the beginning of that movie, where it's

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all about hawk and a product and being a snob

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seemed to be what we thought therapists were.

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Speaker 4: At that time.

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Speaker 3: It sure seems like the emphasis was on the expert

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therapist model where you come into my office and I

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sit behind a really big, powerful looking desk that communicates

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how small my pen is exactly.

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Speaker 1: That desk was a monstrosity and so uncomfortable, so uncomfortable. Yeah,

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it definitely doesn't create a warm environment in way which

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you feel. It definitely makes you feel like you're being interrogated.

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Speaker 3: I have never done therapy sitting behind a desk, not

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one time ever ever.

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Speaker 1: No, even when I've had a desk, I've done which

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I misimiting you guys all do, which is you face

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away from your desk. Your desk faces the wall, and

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you turn away from your desk and you face your

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client with nothing between the two of you.

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Speaker 3: My desk also faces the wall, so that I find

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less things to distract myself with, which does not work.

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Speaker 1: So I guess we coull just jump right into it

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with mister Bob Wilie. So right away we're introduced to

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this character who seems to have a collection of phobias.

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Is how he's first introduced. I started keeping track of

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them as I was watching. Let me know, guys if

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I miss anything. So claustrophobia, because he is like when

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he gets into his apartment building hallway and he starts

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to get very like the walls are closing in on him,

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and the elevator and the elevator. He walked all the

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way up the stairs, which seems to be pretty far

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in Leo's office because he can't handle getting on the elevator.

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Does he go on the elevator in charch pretty four floors,

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which I feel like he would be so late to

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his appointment if he had to go forty four flights

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of stairs.

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Speaker 3: Except that he's very compulsive, so he's probably very early

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walking up those stairs. Yeah, he looked like he was

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about to have a heart attack when he did that

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forty four flights.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I really don't know. You'd have to be pretty

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fit to do that kind of bullshit. And a germophobe,

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which isn't actually a psychological term.

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Speaker 4: I looked it up.

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Speaker 1: The term is misophobia, which is when you're scared of

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germs touching stuff. So he uses a lot of tissues

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in the movie to touch buttons, to touch anything that

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was like a public item, and then like agoraphobia when

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he goes out, it seems like he's overwhelmed by the

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sound of the world.

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Speaker 4: You know what kind of made me think of Hannah

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as bo is afraid? I was just thinking that exact thing.

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Speaker 1: I was the first frames of the film are so

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similar to BoA's Afraid.

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Speaker 4: You're absolutely right, but was Afraid.

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Speaker 1: Is the horror horror the Lynchian horror nightmare version of

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What About Bob?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's probably inspired by paying homage to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And he does describe things that also sound like panic,

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like when he's talking to Siggy.

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Speaker 4: We'll discuss that later, that poor child and his poor name.

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Speaker 1: He he does bring up stuff that does sound like

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actual panic symptoms, because he says like I get dizzy, spells, nauseous, trouble,

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they say, trouble, breathing, trembling, cold sweat like. He does

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name a lot of things that are legit panic, hot sweat,

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hot sweat, cold sweats. So when we see him, he

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does seem to be displayed a multitude of phobias. He

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works from home. He doesn't seem like he goes outside

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if he can help it. But we're why are we

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calling it soup?

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Speaker 3: Though?

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Speaker 1: Why are we calling a mental health soup? Even though

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I'm like naming all these actual diagnoses.

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Speaker 3: Because they made up a diagnosis. Let's start there.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, like what he says actually is

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I guess a fancy way of saying mental soup multiphobic personality.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a made up diagnosis. That's why it's mental

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health soup. What we see Bob displaying is two distinct

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likely disorders, but none of them are multiphobic personality disorder

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because it's not fucking real.

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Speaker 1: I know, Bob does seem to be what we've talked

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about a lot on this podcast, which is, we want

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to put a crazy person in a movie, so we're

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gonna just throw a bunch of symptoms and behaviors at

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them in order to serve the story, not to like

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represent anything accurately. And this is clearly a comedy.

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Speaker 4: We get it, guys.

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Speaker 1: It's a comedy and it's directed by Frank Oz. We

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know it's not a movie supposed to take seriously. And

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they do use a lot of terms in language that

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is a part of our work as therapists.

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Speaker 3: And most of it was represented poorly, but they did.

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I feel like they just took exactly like you said,

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how do we make the most Bonker's story about a

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really bad patient and a bad therapist. And remember when

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they introduced Bob to us, it's via his previous therapist,

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who the subtext is telling us that person is quitting

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therapy because of Bob.

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Speaker 1: Bob drove him out of the job, out of the field,

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he drove him, he clearing his office out. Yeah, like yeah,

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And I do wonder when that therapist said we're a

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dying breed to Leo. I was like, is this some

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joke that I would understand when I first saw this

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movie in like ninety one that I don't quite understand now.

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Speaker 3: Psychiatrists that do therapy is my guess. Okay, but I

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don't know, or maybe he was just referencing that people

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who are experts like that are dying breed and was

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saying exactly whatever he needed to to play to Leo's ego,

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so he would take the patient without questioning too much. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Maybe, But yeah, Bob is yeah, he's it's basically a

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vehicle for Bill Murray to act totally berserker. And like

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I said, they just kind of throw a bunch of

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phobias at him. And I think one thing we can

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address though, is is it possible for someone to have

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multiple diagnoses to have multiple phobias?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: What feels suspicious about Bob as we get to know

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him throughout the movie, though, is it seems like he more.

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Speaker 4: Has has.

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Speaker 1: Anxiety or perseverates on the idea of having different diagnoses

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and phobias that necessarily has them.

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Speaker 2: And he gets over them too fast, he gets over them.

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Speaker 4: Well that's the biggest way.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's definitely one of the biggest problems in terms

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of what they're displaying to us, as though as though

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this ten minute conversation could do anything for someone with

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as as ill as he is supposed to be presenting.

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Speaker 2: Right, which.

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Speaker 3: It points to CD for him, right, And if you

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have multiple diagnoses, what you're describing is that he's worried

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that he has the things. Yeah, but he doesn't actually

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have them. And yes, problems with the movie that oh, look,

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there's magic, but I think the movie's making fun of

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that more than presenting that is real. Yeah, but if

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Bob were a real person and he was displaying constant

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worry that he has these disorders but then gets over

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them quickly and just plays up to them, I don't

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know that plays up to them isn't quite the right word,

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because he's genuinely distressed. Like I don't think Bob doesn't

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seem to present his fictitious disorder, which used to be

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called Munchausen's.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I don't buy that one quite well.

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Speaker 1: Maybe what we can do right now is a little

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psycho ed one on one about what Bob could actually

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be presenting with because one thing is, yeah, you're talking

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about Munchausen. I could see people positing that while watching

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this movie. What makes you think that's not that?

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Speaker 3: I think with Munchausen's people play into that almost an

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unaware kind of way. There's like an intentionality, there's an

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intention of a drivenness to it, and they believe they're ill.

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And Bob, I think, worries that he's ill, but doesn't

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necessarily believe it. He's trying not to get things, and

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he's coming up with rituals to do to avoid them.

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My good example of a ritual he clearly has is

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when he starts talking about being afraid that he has turets. Yes,

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but then he starts acting like he has turets to

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prevent himself fro getting threats. That would be an example

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of an obsession, yeah and a compulsion.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, because if he had like fictitious or

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like Munchausen, he would just be saying I have tourettes.

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Speaker 4: Correct and he'd be acting as if he had turets.

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Speaker 2: He would. But what we're talking aboubout not afraid of it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but what.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about is actually a version of OCD. I

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don't think people know a lot about which is OCD

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can present as an obsessive worry that you have something

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like I've had people worry they weren't actually suicidal, but

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they were worried they'd be suicidal. And that can be

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something you have to be careful about differentiating as a therapist,

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like do you are you actually experiencing SI societal ideation

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or are you just having intrusive thoughts about like oh god,

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what if I grab that knife and cut myself?

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Speaker 4: Which is different?

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Speaker 2: Is different?

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Speaker 3: What makes yeah OCD it in particular show up like

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this is the obsession is the worry that something's wrong,

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and the compulsion is seeking reassurance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because what the client I'm thinking of would ask

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a lot of questions. They would go to It was

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a younger client, so they would go to their parents

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and ask them a bajillion questions over and over again,

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like will I really do that?

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Speaker 4: Will I really hurt myself? And so you're right, like

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there is.

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Speaker 1: The thought, and then the accompanying behavior to try to

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feel safe if possible.

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Speaker 3: And he seems to be aware that it's ridiculous, which

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is another thing that makes it point away from fictitious disorder.

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Speaker 2: He's not convinced he has something.

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Speaker 3: But where we do see is that Bob displays he said,

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can people have two yep, and Bob imprints on Leo

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like a little baby duck, and clearly imprinted on his

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last therapist, and also in prints on Leo's family and

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on the elderly couple.

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Speaker 2: Although they got they have their own beef the agenda.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a weird character that I don't think

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was necessary. Agree, and they kept like panning to them, yeah,

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to get their reaction shots to when bad things would

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happen to Leo.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean they're clearly setting Bob on him. They're

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encouraging Bob. They sure Leo deflects him and they just

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bring him right back.

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Speaker 1: They're they're honestly, I can kind of understand, Yeah, someone

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who can engage in pettiness. They're like, you need somewhere

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to stay, you can stay with us, Bob.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But what we do see Bob displays his dependent personality disorder.

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He is unsure of what his identity is without someone

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else validating that, without being attached to somebody else. Leo

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is the greatest doctor that's ever existed, and he can't

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possibly do anything without him. And he gets so scared

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when he finds out Leo's going on vacation that he

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acts like he's the insurance police and tracks him down

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by getting the call center to tell him where doctor

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Marvin is.

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Speaker 2: And watching that scene just made me scream in my

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head goes like, oh my god, that might actually work.

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Speaker 1: I know. I feel kind of bad for the for

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the Answering Service because you don't think people are going

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to act like that in real life, you know what

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I mean, like.

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Speaker 4: Be that out of pocket.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I can see where you would accidentally do

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something even feels so awful.

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Speaker 4: After the fact, I felt really bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, agreed. And just the fact that he that

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was so that was just so wild. All of that

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part was so incredibly wild. And then faking that he

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completed suicide in order to oh because when he when

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he goes to the and he says he killed himself,

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that's why.

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Speaker 4: We're investigating it. Yeah, Yeah, Which that's.

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Speaker 1: Another thing where because I think what you were starting

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to say earlier, Ben is someone who has these phobias,

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genuinely has these phobias, wouldn't be able to overcome them

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enough to stalk their therapist to his vacation exactly. Like

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this movie tries to kind of bullshit that, Yeah, I

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like him having a hard time getting on the bus

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and stuff, but he gets over all that stuff so

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quickly in his pursuit of Leo.

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Speaker 2: He does.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he clearly made everybody on the bus miserable,

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so he's actively trying. But because he's on such a mission.

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But like I didn't explain fictitious disorder enough, and with

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factitious disorder, he'd be doing it for the attention. He'd

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be faking the illness to get the attention, and you're

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going to great lengths to do so. I don't see

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that in Bob. I'd accept the mental health soup argument

305
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where they played some aspects of that, but I don't

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feel like Bob would randomly fake symptoms. At moments where

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things got tough, he just kept singing the praises of

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how doctor Marvin's the only person who can fix it,

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and displayed blatantly inappropriate Bonker's behavior, but it didn't seem

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like he played up symptoms to get the attention. He

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just soaked up all the attention he could get, but

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didn't use his symptoms to get it. And it wasn't

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like he looked up a disorder and was faking it.

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It seems like he's afraid he has a disorder. So

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that's where the separation comes in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so this is where I guess, if nothing else,

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Bob is a good practice for like differentiating diagnosis, which

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is does he have OCD, does he have fictitious Munchausen's,

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Does he have dependent personality disorder? Does he just have

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like a bunch of random phobias multiphobic personality? I guess

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is that we could put it and like we're saying,

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the phobia thing kind of falls apart by how easily

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is able to overcome them, because I work with people

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who have like phobic levels of stuff and it's hard

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for It's like they miss important stuffs in their life,

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you know what I mean, Like their phobias get in

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the way of their functioning of things that really mean

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something to them. So the fact that he's able to

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push through all of that, so quickly to get all

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the way to where Leo is kind of blows the

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phobia diagnosis out of the water, right.

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Speaker 3: Whereas when we talk about dependent personality disorder, listen to

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these traits and tell me if this sounds like Bob.

334
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This is where we do what's called differential diagnosing. Lots

335
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of things have mimicking symptoms, But when I start listening

336
00:19:16,559 --> 00:19:21,119
to these intense, pervasive need to be taken care of,

337
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submissive clinging behavior, extreme fear of separation, this sounds like Bob.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's Bob. Definitely, that makes a lot of sense.

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I feel like that's the one that I picked up

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on first, besides the phobias. But I really like the

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way that you guys are talking about how it's that

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he's just so afraid that he has something, because I

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think that definitely is a part of a part of

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what's going on for him.

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Speaker 3: I think when you look at Bob, he does fit

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the combination of these two really well, at least as

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well as going to a from the early nineties with

348
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Bill Murray being a maniac and apparently he was actually

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a maniac on set, and I think the animosity that

350
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Richard Dreyfush shows him was real because he he threw.

351
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Speaker 2: An ashtray at his face. Bill Murray threw it. Bill

352
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Murray was being like a bully in a giant asshole.

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Speaker 4: Apparently you know that method. Acting bullshit is bullshit?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.

355
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Speaker 3: I don't even know if he was doing that or

356
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just Bill Murray was a maniac at this exact fase

357
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in his career.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I haven't studied up on my Bill Murray history, but

360
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the behavior we see in the film is clearly obsessed

361
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and afraid, but also having a deep need to be

362
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taken care of. But I don't think they overlap. I

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don't think Bob is doing all this to fake that

364
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he has something. I think he's genuinely terrified that something's

365
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wrong with him. But it's not inventing shit to be that.

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I can see the argument for it, but I don't

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think so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I would be more open to the idea

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that maybe he has some anxiety OCD about having specific

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illnesses and maybe also having dependent personality disorder, Like you

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can have a personality disorder and have another mental health illness.

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I don't know how much people know that either, because

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I think people I don't know the modern The current

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way of thinking about personality disorders is not very kind.

375
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And the way I kind of hear it be talked

376
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about in the mainstream is, if you have a personality disorder,

377
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nothing's really wrong with you, quote unquote except for your

378
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personality in terms of diagnosing. But actually a lot of

379
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people with personal disorders can have comorbidities with other diagnoses.

380
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So he could be someone who has anxiety and dependent

381
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personality disorder, and anxiety could come out as perseverating on

382
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illnesses to an OCD level.

383
00:22:00,839 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 3: Perhaps, Yeah, I certainly see the OCD. He's clearly fixated,

384
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and he has lots of little things that he does,

385
00:22:09,279 --> 00:22:12,359
and we're seeing all of that combined. Like you said,

386
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I think where you're I draw the separation again, is

387
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that in fictitious disorder. The best example we've seen on

388
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,160
that on movies we've done was an it where we

389
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,000
saw Munchausen's by Proxy with the one kid's mom who

390
00:22:27,079 --> 00:22:30,000
was medicating him for anxiety and like making him take

391
00:22:30,079 --> 00:22:33,440
pills and arguing with the doctors and doctor shopping and

392
00:22:33,519 --> 00:22:38,359
manipulating results and telling everybody to get attention that her

393
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,599
son was so sick Bob's not doing any of that.

394
00:22:43,519 --> 00:22:47,680
There's none of the malicious representation. Bob is genuinely terrified

395
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:53,279
that something's wrong with him. It's just super dependent at

396
00:22:53,279 --> 00:22:57,599
the same time. And that's a real interesting divide in

397
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,079
mental health soup. We've got going on with Bob here.

398
00:23:01,039 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I was just going to add that another

399
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:08,359
really good example of Munchausen is in the HBO limited.

400
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 4: Series called Sharp Objects.

401
00:23:10,799 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 1: That's another really good portrayal of Munchausen's and the lengths

402
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:21,400
that someone will go through to prove that their child

403
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:22,160
is ill.

404
00:23:24,039 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 2: Or that they are right.

405
00:23:26,039 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 3: And I just don't see it here, but I do

406
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,880
see all the things Brittany was talking about, like he's fixating,

407
00:23:35,759 --> 00:23:41,240
he's worried, he's doing things to make the fear go away.

408
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,400
He's where it's bonkers and that he shouldn't be like that.

409
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,359
That's why he's seeking treatment. But he's also showing some

410
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,880
rigidities and other little tiny rituals, like we see him

411
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,480
jumping cracks on the sidewalk, we see him touching buttons

412
00:23:56,519 --> 00:23:58,480
with a kleenex.

413
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Speaker 1: He walks up the stairs, he goes to the side,

414
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,640
he had to turn sideways to go up the stairs.

415
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 2: And there's all kinds of little things.

416
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 3: But I do want to specify too that in differential diagnosis,

417
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,839
there are two obsessive compulsive diagnoses, and people sometimes get

418
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:21,680
them confused. Obsessive compulsive personality disorder is marked by like

419
00:24:21,839 --> 00:24:25,559
stark rigidity, people that can't tolerate if their pencils are

420
00:24:25,559 --> 00:24:27,119
lined up in a certain way out of their desk,

421
00:24:27,519 --> 00:24:32,079
that it's one's turned a little bit and would have

422
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,720
to have things in order. It almost present a little

423
00:24:34,759 --> 00:24:38,599
bit like we see when there's neurotypical things where people

424
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:43,200
can't tolerate the break from routines, but it would present

425
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:49,920
with stark rigidity. Angela from the Office would probably be

426
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,519
a great example of that, like everything has to be

427
00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:55,319
these certain ways, everything needs to be this way, and

428
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,279
she'd be a pretty good TV example of that, and

429
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,680
Jim would be her worst nightmare.

430
00:25:02,799 --> 00:25:06,839
Speaker 1: And I think something that I use as a way

431
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:12,480
to understand OCPD is that someone who has OCPD, it's

432
00:25:12,519 --> 00:25:13,799
actually very tough to treat.

433
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:15,039
Speaker 4: Supposedly.

434
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: I've never worked with it myself, but supposedly it's tough

435
00:25:17,759 --> 00:25:20,519
to treat because kind of similar to Angela from the Office,

436
00:25:20,759 --> 00:25:24,200
when people have OCPD, they're more likely to think that

437
00:25:24,319 --> 00:25:26,039
the way they do things is the way you're supposed

438
00:25:26,039 --> 00:25:28,920
to do things, like they're the correct ones, kind of

439
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,039
like type A on steroids.

440
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,039
Speaker 2: Right, and there is no other way? Yeah, so its wrong. Yeah.

441
00:25:34,039 --> 00:25:37,599
Speaker 1: Whereas OCD, there is this awareness that the way that

442
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:42,720
I'm thinking is not quite sane and it's causing me

443
00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:45,599
to stress. It doesn't feel like it's adding anything to

444
00:25:45,599 --> 00:25:48,759
my life. It's just like getting in the way of stuff.

445
00:25:49,559 --> 00:25:52,279
I would also say, like another diagnosis we probably should

446
00:25:52,279 --> 00:25:55,519
make sure to rule out or talk through is hypochondria,

447
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,519
which is actually somatic disorder or sematics disorder. Why would

448
00:26:01,559 --> 00:26:05,440
we not consider him having that either when we're thinking

449
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,519
about all these things he's worried about having.

450
00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 3: None of the things he's mentioning are medical illnesses. That

451
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,799
would be the top reason why. That one pretty much

452
00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:20,400
ruled itself out of my brain pretty quick, locked right

453
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,759
into dependent personality disorder OCD took me some thinking and

454
00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:27,480
some reading, but locked right into depending I think we

455
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,599
all did us when we were talking offline, We're like,

456
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,920
so he's got dependent personality disorder, right, right, Okay, absolutely,

457
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:41,880
but hypochondria would have him afraid of disease period, and

458
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:45,599
he's afraid of germs from touching things and he's doing

459
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,839
things to avoid it, but he's not afraid of illness

460
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,279
in general period, and that he's thinking he's always going

461
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,200
to get sick or is sick, or something's always wrong

462
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:56,599
with him.

463
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 2: He's not doing any of those things.

464
00:27:00,279 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I wanted to just name that because I

465
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,559
could understand listening to this podcast episode and being like,

466
00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:09,640
why aren't they much in hypochondria because he's so fixated

467
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,720
on all these different illnesses that he might have or

468
00:27:11,759 --> 00:27:14,039
that he thinks he has. But Yeah, you're making the

469
00:27:14,079 --> 00:27:18,799
good differentiation, which is that in order to have that

470
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,440
specific diagnosis, it's physical illnesses that you think you're having,

471
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,119
and you can be so concerned that you have these

472
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,160
different illnesses that you can actually give yourself like physical pain,

473
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,599
Like I've worked with people that have like legit back pain,

474
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,000
stuff like that as a result of sematic disorder.

475
00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and having a sematic disorder means you're genuinely speaking,

476
00:27:42,519 --> 00:27:47,599
refusing to deal or it's just presenting physically, and if

477
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,440
people aren't processing the emotion, the body then feels the

478
00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:56,880
painful emotion through physical pain and I'm not hearing any

479
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,839
reports of that from Bob. I don't know if you

480
00:27:58,839 --> 00:28:00,559
guys heard, but I didn't catch any of those.

481
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so, because he doesn't really talk

482
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,559
about any medical any kind of descriptions of physical symptoms

483
00:28:07,599 --> 00:28:12,720
except for when he's being interviewed by Leo initially when

484
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,720
he makes all that list of like dizzyness, nausea. That's

485
00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:17,759
really the only time that he talks about it. He

486
00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:19,519
doesn't really talk about it at any other time of

487
00:28:19,519 --> 00:28:19,920
the film.

488
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I think you're right, Like,

489
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:23,319
it's just.

490
00:28:24,759 --> 00:28:26,319
Speaker 3: I think we can just wipe that one off of

491
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,160
and like, but it's one we should look at and

492
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,720
going like, but he's afraid of being sick. But nope,

493
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,920
just it's more touching, it's touching dirty things.

494
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:37,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's more of those.

495
00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: It's more the phobic OCD version of being afraid of

496
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,079
germs or illness. Not so much like I think I

497
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,880
have these things all the time. Because that's actually in it,

498
00:28:49,599 --> 00:28:52,680
that kid ends up kind of getting somatic disorder because

499
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,039
his mom has like the Munchausen right, Like, he starts

500
00:28:56,079 --> 00:28:59,720
to develop his reaction to that, which is probably just

501
00:28:59,759 --> 00:29:03,160
his internal trauma from his mom and being like fucked

502
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,240
over by her and thinking, you.

503
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 4: Know, nightmare nightmare status guys.

504
00:29:09,759 --> 00:29:15,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And with Bob there was something I wanted

505
00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:17,920
to mention with five. I don't remem it was five

506
00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:23,720
or tr OCD got changed. It used to require both

507
00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:28,079
obsessions and compulsions, and it no longer does. People can

508
00:29:28,119 --> 00:29:31,200
have one or the other. Now they do not have

509
00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:33,799
to have both. You do not have to have ritualistic

510
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,839
things that you do. And it used to be in

511
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,200
DSM four that that was locked in. It had to

512
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,960
be both or you could not get this diagnosis. Under

513
00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:47,240
the modern version of this, Bob would be eligible. Under

514
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,000
the past version of this, Bob would be eligible, I think.

515
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,680
But when you see there are people who don't necessarily

516
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,119
perseverate so much. There are people who just compulsively do

517
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,839
things to seek reassurance, and it is they can have

518
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,359
worries without having fixated worries, but still have a compulsive

519
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:11,359
response to them. So it's where differential diagnosis is important.

520
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:16,359
And for the love of God, stop diagnosing yourselves with AI.

521
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 2: Stop it, stop.

522
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,799
Speaker 1: It, We'll stop trying to do it. Here's the thing,

523
00:30:24,799 --> 00:30:27,319
as humans, we don't have all the answers to the universe.

524
00:30:27,519 --> 00:30:31,039
So neither does AI because AI is just because AI

525
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,880
is just to us. They don't know they have all

526
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,359
the answers. Stop it, and it's just like WebMD on

527
00:30:39,039 --> 00:30:42,279
you know, steroids. Yeah, I would say something I also

528
00:30:42,319 --> 00:30:45,079
want to point out about Bob and if we're going

529
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,000
to go off of the dependent personality disorder diagnosis is

530
00:30:50,519 --> 00:30:54,400
something that I think, I'm sure makes us all lean

531
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,079
more towards that. Well, it's a few things, but one

532
00:30:57,119 --> 00:31:00,200
is what's very clear throughout the course of this movie

533
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,960
is how he relates to other people, you know, not

534
00:31:05,079 --> 00:31:08,599
just not just Leo, but his whole family. And a

535
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,680
common component of personality disorders is struggling relationally, struggling to

536
00:31:13,759 --> 00:31:16,880
relate to people in a way that's appropriate. Whether it's

537
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,000
I can't quite relate to people, or I can't quite

538
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,680
figure out relationships, or I don't know how to make friendships,

539
00:31:24,759 --> 00:31:27,480
or I don't know well with him, it's more like

540
00:31:27,559 --> 00:31:30,119
I don't know what's appropriate and what's not. And that's

541
00:31:30,119 --> 00:31:33,559
a big component of Bob throughout this movie is he

542
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:39,160
doesn't seem to have any social intelligence. He has no

543
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,400
awareness of legit. How scary it would be to show

544
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:48,000
up at a person's house unannounced that you've only met

545
00:31:48,039 --> 00:31:52,759
once for ten minutes. My clients would understand how unnerving

546
00:31:52,799 --> 00:31:55,519
it would be if they just showed up at my house.

547
00:31:55,519 --> 00:31:57,880
Well one, that they would know where I lived, and

548
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,640
that they would show up at my house unannounced. There's

549
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,680
like that social awareness of how off putting that would

550
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,079
be and also how that would ruin your relationship to

551
00:32:08,119 --> 00:32:11,559
your therapist. And he has he seems to have no

552
00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:15,839
social awareness of how he comes off, of how off

553
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,000
putting he's behaving, and how if he really wants to

554
00:32:20,039 --> 00:32:22,599
work with Theo, I mean, if he really wants to

555
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,519
work with Leo psychiatrically, that he's ruining it by showing

556
00:32:27,599 --> 00:32:28,759
up at his house the way he is.

557
00:32:30,079 --> 00:32:32,319
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, there's a zero percent chance Leo's going to

558
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,880
work with him. Even if this movie isn't bonkers.

559
00:32:35,839 --> 00:32:38,319
Speaker 4: There's even if it doesn't end in attempted murder.

560
00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, which got ignored.

561
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,839
Speaker 4: By the way, and then he marries his sister.

562
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,559
Speaker 3: And I guess family just like playing right into it. Yeah,

563
00:32:48,599 --> 00:32:52,599
it's unbelievable, it's outrageous, but yeah, he has no awaren

564
00:32:54,119 --> 00:32:56,880
that lack of awareness actually made me wonder if he's

565
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,559
somewhere on the spectrum with like is like not perceiving

566
00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:03,039
social cues and it's.

567
00:33:03,079 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 2: That's where it's mental health too.

568
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 3: It's real difficult to kind of suss that out of

569
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:13,960
a Bob shows a lot of autism sectual traits a lot.

570
00:33:14,559 --> 00:33:16,839
Speaker 1: Well, he's also the victim of I feel like this

571
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:22,200
time in understanding mental health, like autism wasn't even understood

572
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,720
the way we understand it now. They're giving him sort

573
00:33:24,759 --> 00:33:27,480
of the thing that they would do back then, which is,

574
00:33:28,119 --> 00:33:31,039
aren't people with mental health stuff so eccentric and wacky

575
00:33:31,039 --> 00:33:34,359
and weird? And they will just do wacky, weird, eccentric stuff.

576
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 3: And then we let Bill Murray completely off the chain.

577
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,759
I guarantee he improvised the living crap out of this movie.

578
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:47,599
Speaker 5: And yeah, but you just you watch it and go like, uh,

579
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:52,240
that lack of perception that this is weird like that

580
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,599
that seems to go beyond even personality disorder, like the

581
00:33:56,599 --> 00:33:58,720
imprinting and I just needed I needed I needed that,

582
00:33:59,079 --> 00:34:01,920
and the compulsion to do it makes sense, But it

583
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,839
seems like there's something else missing that that would probably cover.

584
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 3: And you're right, they that wouldn't have been remotely considered.

585
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:16,440
But he absolutely does not perceive boundaries, anyone's boundaries at all,

586
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,800
And he doesn't seem to recognize or tolerate well being

587
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,480
told no or deviated from his plan, whatever his ideas are.

588
00:34:24,519 --> 00:34:29,599
But that doesn't appear malicious or like premeditated. He seems

589
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:34,159
like he's just doing stuff like he's He seems like

590
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:37,039
the embodiment of do I look like a guy with

591
00:34:37,079 --> 00:34:42,480
a plan. I'm just a dog chasing cars. That's what

592
00:34:42,559 --> 00:34:43,559
he seems like he is.

593
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 1: Don't even don't insult the joker like that, and also,

594
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:55,079
don't make me say something like that, Okay, got him,

595
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,320
but I hear what you're saying though. Also, and something

596
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,559
we've talked about on different episode odes and why this

597
00:35:01,639 --> 00:35:06,679
is mental health soup, is someone who is as mentally

598
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:14,679
unwell as Bob would also be so plan oriented, like

599
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,440
the way that he makes the whole, like getting the

600
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,039
outfit and the fake badge together, going to the answering

601
00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:27,239
service office, working the answering operate well, working the operators

602
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,400
the way that he does, like his ability to hold

603
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,039
it together and deceive people. That does not also coincide

604
00:35:33,039 --> 00:35:37,400
with someone who can't seem to leave his apartment without

605
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,480
doing all this ritualistic stuff and can't seem to get

606
00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:43,800
on the bus without making a scene like the movie's

607
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,119
doing that thing that movies do where they're picking and choosing. Also,

608
00:35:48,199 --> 00:35:51,159
where he's ill, and when it works for the plot

609
00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:55,280
for him to be stable and with it, he's with it.

610
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,000
But when it works for a plot to for him

611
00:35:57,039 --> 00:35:59,840
to be totally out there, he's out there. And the

612
00:36:00,039 --> 00:36:01,960
fact that even with the way that he goes about

613
00:36:02,599 --> 00:36:05,760
defrauding the answering service, is that it is also him

614
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,760
practicing some awareness of how the world works and how

615
00:36:09,079 --> 00:36:12,599
I was just thinking the exact same thing that him

616
00:36:12,599 --> 00:36:15,639
being able to do that and engage in and be

617
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,880
charming with them.

618
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's more antisocial.

619
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like that feels like something completely different. Being able

620
00:36:22,679 --> 00:36:25,599
to be to appear that confident and that comfortable in

621
00:36:25,639 --> 00:36:30,320
that way just doesn't match everything else that we see,

622
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,480
Like it just really doesn't even come close.

623
00:36:33,159 --> 00:36:34,559
Speaker 4: It doesn't. It just doesn't track.

624
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 3: It's that's where it's difficult to suss out, because right

625
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,360
he's showing like a lack of understanding that you can't

626
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,880
just imprint onto everybody. This is not your family, but

627
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,880
you don't know these people and they're just being kind

628
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:48,199
to you.

629
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,119
Speaker 2: But this you're not.

630
00:36:52,519 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 3: You're not man's house, you're in his pajamas, and that

631
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,480
you came back and now you're playing with the kids.

632
00:37:00,679 --> 00:37:07,360
If that didn't feel so spontaneous and childlike, it would

633
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,719
be way more concerning from Bob. I think it's just

634
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,920
he's really not perceiving it. Where like antisocial would, there'd

635
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,239
be an agenda, it'd be manipulative, be no, you're going

636
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,360
to do this, so you do what I want and

637
00:37:24,519 --> 00:37:27,440
Bob Bob is missing that. I do not see that,

638
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:33,079
but it's worth looking at because that shit is scary.

639
00:37:31,159 --> 00:37:33,159
Speaker 1: And it then it calls into question like is he

640
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,440
being fake the whole movie? Which is what I which

641
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,480
is what I was just thinking, So that is just

642
00:37:38,519 --> 00:37:42,639
all fucking made up and he's really just a horrible person,

643
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,519
or like when he takes me to the hospital at

644
00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:46,639
the end of the towards the end of the movie

645
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,079
and he's charming all the staff. But I do think

646
00:37:49,119 --> 00:37:52,519
that is where the movie is like picking and choosing

647
00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:57,119
what works for the plot, not necessarily anything that makes sense.

648
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,480
And what we talk about a lot in this podcast

649
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,440
is how it also paints people who are of mental

650
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,280
health disorders in a very negative light, like they can

651
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,719
pick and choose when they're acting ill, that they can

652
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,599
manipulate their diagnoses to get what they want, like when

653
00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:18,199
he calls a narcissist and a psychopath at the end Leo,

654
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,360
which is also bad luck on him because I was like, Uh,

655
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,719
look in the mirror, babe. But it does do the

656
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,960
disservice to people who actually have these diagnoses to make

657
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,679
it seem like they could just pull their shit together

658
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,760
when it works for them and then fall apart when

659
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,960
it does it. And I also think the way that

660
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,559
he engages with Leo's son, Siggy also flies in the

661
00:38:38,599 --> 00:38:42,159
face of when we're talking about like that more nefarious

662
00:38:42,199 --> 00:38:46,039
antisocial behavior, because he does have these moments where with

663
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:54,039
the kids that seem so genuine and childlike and is

664
00:38:54,079 --> 00:38:57,599
accessing an ability to connect that doesn't line up with

665
00:38:57,639 --> 00:38:58,960
these other things we're talking about.

666
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,039
Speaker 3: It really doesn't, and we're all agreeing here, like it's

667
00:39:03,119 --> 00:39:06,480
it's a little too spontaneous, it's a little too authentic,

668
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:14,440
it's too genuine there, you're not seeing manipulative acting like

669
00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:19,639
he's a baby or a child to then get something

670
00:39:19,679 --> 00:39:22,719
out of it. It seems like he really just needs

671
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,000
that and is accessing a part of his self that

672
00:39:25,199 --> 00:39:31,039
is hurt more than he's trying to control the situation.

673
00:39:31,159 --> 00:39:35,519
Like he definitely wants care, but he seems to want

674
00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:39,119
care and not understand that what he's doing is bananas.

675
00:39:39,519 --> 00:39:41,880
And that's a really big difference in understanding it and

676
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,599
doing it anyway because you want it and don't care

677
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:51,320
or can't care. Yeah, I think that that one. We

678
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,800
seem to be in agreement, like it's worth talking, but

679
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,679
now don't see it, Patrick Bateman, that and you know

680
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,079
who else shows some of that stuff, Doctor Lee Marvin.

681
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,079
Speaker 4: So should we take a break here?

682
00:40:04,639 --> 00:40:06,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we've covered Bob. People. I don't have

683
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:07,719
much else to say about Bob, do you guys?

684
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,119
Speaker 4: I don't think I have anything else to say about Bob?

685
00:40:10,159 --> 00:40:11,159
Speaker 2: No, but what about pop?

686
00:40:11,599 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 4: What about Bob?

687
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:13,079
Speaker 2: What about?

688
00:40:13,199 --> 00:40:16,679
Speaker 4: But about says? Is that the titled movie over and

689
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:17,119
over again.

690
00:40:17,159 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 1: I was like, you gotta be kidding me, you gotta

691
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,920
be kidnaming nineties? Yeah, I was actually the one last

692
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,280
thing I want to say about Bob?

693
00:40:26,679 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 2: What about Bob? Brittany?

694
00:40:28,159 --> 00:40:31,559
Speaker 1: Is that what the family does? Maybe it's actually fits

695
00:40:31,559 --> 00:40:34,400
more the next part. But I think also a disservice

696
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,320
this movie does to people similar to Bob is that

697
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,360
it does a different kind of stigmatizing a lot of

698
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,079
the movies you talked about where they have stigma around

699
00:40:44,119 --> 00:40:47,760
people with mental health disorders, especially significant ones like Bob

700
00:40:48,079 --> 00:40:51,519
probably has, is that they're like violent, scary, that kind

701
00:40:51,519 --> 00:40:53,679
of stuff, Right, this movie actually kind of goes too far.

702
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,840
The other direction which it which is also how people

703
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,840
can be treated in a stigmatizing way, is that infant

704
00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:03,679
fantalizing them. Like the mom literally says kids will be

705
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,320
kids about Bob when he shares the room with Siggy,

706
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,599
and I'm like, he's not a fucking kid. They all

707
00:41:09,639 --> 00:41:12,119
talk about him like his brain is like a four

708
00:41:12,159 --> 00:41:14,960
year old's, And that's also very disrespectful.

709
00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:18,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, that they set him up in the room and

710
00:41:19,559 --> 00:41:21,639
like left him with their child has me going like,

711
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,679
what what are you?

712
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,559
Speaker 4: Wild fucking behavior, unrecking.

713
00:41:27,159 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: Believable couch couch the couch.

714
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: I would be like, I don't care where you sleep,

715
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:33,719
Get the fuck away from my house.

716
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I mean Leo was not wrong for being a.

717
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: Poll well before we get to on that, yeah, let's

718
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,960
take a break care and we'll be right back, all right,

719
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,039
So doctor Leo Marvin, everybody unclench your jaws and let's

720
00:41:48,039 --> 00:41:51,480
swallow them whole. What do we think about, doctor Leo Marvin?

721
00:41:52,039 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 2: And you chose to say, we know what?

722
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 4: He who we would love to swallow whole, Sigmund for aid.

723
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,519
Speaker 2: That is quite evident.

724
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, which it's like do we not know? And I

725
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,159
mean that's just typical. Also, like every therapist and psychiatrist

726
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,880
and everybody must be obsessed with Sigmund.

727
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 3: Freud, especially if they're the expot therapist motto.

728
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: Like you're gonna have a bust of him in your office,

729
00:42:18,519 --> 00:42:20,840
You're gonn name your home only son after.

730
00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:23,519
Speaker 2: Him, and your daughter after his daughter.

731
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,039
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Anna, I knew that. I didn't even catch

732
00:42:27,079 --> 00:42:29,519
that till I was like, I think Anna is also

733
00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:32,159
the name of something else, but I just couldn't remember.

734
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:33,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, Anna Freud.

735
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 3: Do you know that he actually a you know, quite

736
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:41,800
successful uh theorist herself, and her theories on childhood actually

737
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,599
significantly improved and were better than her father's, and like

738
00:42:46,639 --> 00:42:48,360
the dynamic between those two especially.

739
00:42:48,599 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 2: We'll talk about the puppets, but.

740
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 4: Yes, we will talk about the buckets, can't forget.

741
00:42:53,039 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 3: The puppets, but the yeah, naming your children after I

742
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:01,000
mean they were it was really some like on the nose,

743
00:43:01,639 --> 00:43:05,519
like we're really going to lean into how unwell Leo

744
00:43:05,559 --> 00:43:07,320
Marvin is and obsessed himself.

745
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: Well, and also this betrayal, which like I said, is

746
00:43:11,519 --> 00:43:15,280
up top, is not unfortunately a typical of this time

747
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:20,679
period that all people in mental health spaces like his

748
00:43:21,119 --> 00:43:26,599
are these elitist money grubbers who write books and who

749
00:43:26,599 --> 00:43:29,079
are like just trying to hawk their wares, and they

750
00:43:29,079 --> 00:43:35,199
all want to become some like psychological celebrity with their

751
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:39,000
own modality that makes them famous like baby steps. Is

752
00:43:39,039 --> 00:43:43,760
his right, this idea that also well, this is an

753
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,320
idea that also encourages us to not trust therapists, not

754
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,760
trust mental health providers because we're out, we're out, we're

755
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,320
in it for our own gain, which is hilarious because

756
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,639
actually a lot of therapists and stuff don't make a

757
00:43:56,639 --> 00:44:01,719
lot of money, especially early especially or ever some or

758
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,480
ever some times. But he's probably I bet you he's

759
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,800
the kind of psychiatrist so that takes no insurance.

760
00:44:09,039 --> 00:44:10,519
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's all which.

761
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 1: Is like, then how do you get someone like Bob,

762
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:14,559
who I can't imagine has a lot of money and

763
00:44:14,599 --> 00:44:16,320
resources given where we see him living.

764
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think, you know, understanding even what plans

765
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,400
would have covered mental health back then is something we're

766
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,119
all a little just too young to know or understand.

767
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,400
Since the ACA, they all have to which means prior

768
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,480
to the ACA they did not. So therapists only charging

769
00:44:33,559 --> 00:44:35,800
cash would have been much more common.

770
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 2: And now it's kind of.

771
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 3: A small percentage of people are like, look, i'll give

772
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,960
you a super bill, but I'm not messing around with insurance.

773
00:44:44,039 --> 00:44:47,159
And people that have written books and are super fancy

774
00:44:47,159 --> 00:44:50,079
and downtown offices might be a little more likely to

775
00:44:50,159 --> 00:44:53,920
follow that model, but it's not nearly as common.

776
00:44:54,159 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 2: But I wonder what it was in ninety one.

777
00:44:57,119 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: But I think off the rip, we need to talk

778
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,679
about what we see him do that is unethical. One

779
00:45:03,639 --> 00:45:08,119
is the idea, Well one, this interview intake that's only

780
00:45:08,519 --> 00:45:13,519
five and a half minutes or whatever where totally insane. Yeah,

781
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,639
so that's like Also, if he's billing Bob for that

782
00:45:16,679 --> 00:45:20,440
whole hour, that's shitty, Like whatever he's billing Bob on

783
00:45:20,559 --> 00:45:23,440
top of giving him a book and billing him for

784
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:29,000
the book. Billing him for the book is crazy, crazy crazy.

785
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:30,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally sued.

786
00:45:30,599 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's okay to give a client a book

787
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,880
you wrote. It's okay to offer a book for sale.

788
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,239
What is not okay is to give a book and

789
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,360
then charge for it later, where a client might feel

790
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,760
compelled to pay and feel like they might have to

791
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:54,360
pay or they won't be seen. And that is unethical.

792
00:45:54,639 --> 00:45:59,599
That would be very very unethical and shady behavior. And

793
00:45:59,679 --> 00:46:03,599
Leo clearly obsessed with the book and just well, I mean, obviously.

794
00:46:03,199 --> 00:46:05,079
Speaker 2: I wrote it, so I have to charge for it. No,

795
00:46:05,199 --> 00:46:08,679
you don't. You can eat that cost. You should never do.

796
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: That, even just writing him off the way that he does,

797
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,800
writing him off the way that he does, ending the session,

798
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,599
giving him this one note answer for all of his problems.

799
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:24,920
Like an intake usually takes at least and sometimes an

800
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,599
intake takes several sessions, Like an intake can take a

801
00:46:28,679 --> 00:46:32,639
long time, Diagnosing somebody with a personality disorder with meeting

802
00:46:32,639 --> 00:46:36,280
them within the first ten minutes is unethical. Personality disorders

803
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:41,239
take time to diagnose because it's a lot of relational

804
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,000
it's a lot of behaviors, and so it takes time

805
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,519
to really get a good idea of why somebody is

806
00:46:47,559 --> 00:46:51,039
engaging the behavior they're engaging in. So personality disorders, you

807
00:46:51,079 --> 00:46:55,000
don't unless somebody comes in with that diagnosis. That's not

808
00:46:55,039 --> 00:46:58,519
a diagnosis that you just offhandedly give to someone after

809
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:00,480
talking to them for five to time minutes.

810
00:47:01,119 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 3: No, and frankly would I have to cover with baby

811
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:08,639
therapists all the time. Is we can't diagnose those at

812
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:13,039
our level of licensure. You have to do testing or

813
00:47:13,119 --> 00:47:18,000
be a psychiatrist to diagnose personality disorders. You have to

814
00:47:18,079 --> 00:47:24,000
have evidence for these, and we are not qualified to

815
00:47:24,159 --> 00:47:27,079
diagnose those. There are limited number of things we're not

816
00:47:27,199 --> 00:47:32,800
qualified to diagnose. Most we are. But we're saying a

817
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,039
character in a movie displays these traits, but we would

818
00:47:36,039 --> 00:47:39,559
not diagnose a real person with dependent personality disorder. We

819
00:47:39,559 --> 00:47:42,960
would refer them to testing or a psychiatrist to make

820
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,760
that because you cannot. I can't say you can't make

821
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:51,239
that diagnosis in four minutes. And you Leo Marvin set

822
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,119
himself up for Bob by portraying himself as a god

823
00:47:55,119 --> 00:47:57,960
who can answer him with baby steps and read my

824
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,719
book and like just baby steps, like just just baby steps,

825
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,719
Like how do I stop all this stuff, baby steps,

826
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,800
leaving Bob with the impression that he can be cured

827
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,760
so quickly, all because they wanted to go on vacation.

828
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 1: Another reason why him charging him for the book is

829
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,920
unethical is because he is taking advantage of the power

830
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,559
dynamic between him and the client, because he knows that

831
00:48:20,639 --> 00:48:22,639
the client, like you were saying, Ben, like the client

832
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,239
might feel compelled to pay for the book and not

833
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,920
say anything about it. So taking advantage or taking advantage

834
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,039
of the client like that is what he's doing.

835
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 4: So I feel like between that and he's just horrible.

836
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:37,519
Speaker 2: I don't even I.

837
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: Don't even know what else to say. Like, just his

838
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,599
the again, that expert model that like I am. I

839
00:48:43,639 --> 00:48:46,119
think he does think he is god. I really do

840
00:48:46,199 --> 00:48:47,760
think that that's how he feels about it, or at

841
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,440
least he's a god about this book or whatever. Well,

842
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:54,599
he definitely likes the smell of his own farts and

843
00:48:55,559 --> 00:48:58,320
he washed that shit. Oh he's just he's bottling it

844
00:48:58,719 --> 00:48:59,280
and inhaling.

845
00:48:59,320 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 2: You know.

846
00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 3: He's like President Schloob from Spaceballs, like when he's got

847
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:03,719
the air in a can.

848
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:05,559
Speaker 2: But that's his own farce. He's just like.

849
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: I love Balls as a kid, But yeah, I think

850
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,360
a good point that you're both bringing up that I

851
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,760
hadn't really thought of, but is a part of the

852
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,719
ethical nature of our work and the pardynamic of our work,

853
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:25,000
and why having an ego when you do our work

854
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,119
is one of the worst things you can have as

855
00:49:28,119 --> 00:49:31,199
a therapist, because one, it keeps you from learning and growing,

856
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,679
like having an ego and anything does. And then two,

857
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:40,800
it allows you to make more mistakes than you would

858
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:41,559
typically make.

859
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 4: And a big.

860
00:49:43,079 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 1: Mistake he makes is putting, like you said, putting himself

861
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:53,239
in this position with Bob as a oracle figure. It's

862
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,199
like that he has all the answers and then throwing

863
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:55,840
him out the door.

864
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:56,119
Speaker 3: Right.

865
00:49:56,599 --> 00:49:59,519
Speaker 1: And also something too, which I think displays his ego

866
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,440
and I think can be a common misunderstanding of mental

867
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,840
health practitioners, is that almost we can read your aura

868
00:50:08,159 --> 00:50:11,039
and know, like immediately what's wrong with you. The way

869
00:50:11,079 --> 00:50:15,639
he says multifo personality with acute separation, anxiety and like

870
00:50:15,639 --> 00:50:18,719
a need for family connection or something like, how the

871
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,559
fuck would you get all of that from talking to

872
00:50:21,599 --> 00:50:24,000
him for four minutes? Could you make an argument that

873
00:50:24,039 --> 00:50:27,880
he's someone that's getting referred from another practitioner, and maybe

874
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:32,280
that's why he knows he did no, but he didn't

875
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,400
get any info from that guy yet because he literally

876
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,800
referred him and then like thirty minutes later, Bob's at

877
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,199
his door, so he also it wasn't even long enough

878
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,679
for him to get the chart, if you will, from

879
00:50:43,679 --> 00:50:46,079
the other practitioner, to have something to build on, because

880
00:50:46,079 --> 00:50:48,800
the only way that would fly is if he was

881
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:53,760
just piggybacking on the diagnosis that was already made by

882
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,360
the previous therapist or psychiatrist.

883
00:50:56,639 --> 00:50:57,679
Speaker 4: But he doesn't even have that.

884
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: He literally meets Bob for five seconds and makes these

885
00:51:02,079 --> 00:51:05,840
sweeping assumptions, but they don't talk about BOP's past. They

886
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,239
don't talk about his family issues, Like that's also stuff

887
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:10,760
you'd need to know if you were going to make

888
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:17,199
any assumptions about his familial bonding about separation anxiety, Like

889
00:51:17,599 --> 00:51:20,679
it's so wild, how far reaching it is. But there

890
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,960
are mental health practitioners who fucking walk around like that,

891
00:51:24,039 --> 00:51:26,480
I'm not gonna look, that's not true. Like there are

892
00:51:26,519 --> 00:51:28,159
some that really do like the smell of their own

893
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,079
farts and think that they can like eyeball a bitch

894
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:32,639
and like know everything that's wrong with them and you

895
00:51:32,679 --> 00:51:34,760
Sometimes you see those on social media like this is

896
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,079
where I also will you know as we're shitting on

897
00:51:37,159 --> 00:51:39,199
AI also will shit on social media.

898
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 4: Mental health practitioners.

899
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:44,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, pop psychology, Yeah, who will porn? Which is what

900
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:46,760
we do. It's different. Yeah, this is about movies.

901
00:51:47,039 --> 00:51:48,599
Speaker 1: But these are the kind of people that will make

902
00:51:48,639 --> 00:51:52,079
a stitch on social media about maybe real people on

903
00:51:52,119 --> 00:51:55,000
a on a like a reality show and be like

904
00:51:55,039 --> 00:51:57,679
they have this, this, this and this, and I'm like,

905
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,119
you don't know that you haven't talked to this per

906
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,800
at length. You're not there, You're not their doctor or

907
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:09,719
their therapist. And those people also feel this misunderstanding that

908
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:15,480
we as therapists have this almost psychic ability to read

909
00:52:15,559 --> 00:52:19,199
someone within like a conversation.

910
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:24,280
Speaker 3: Which, newsflash, we don't. Can we pick up on your aura, yes,

911
00:52:25,519 --> 00:52:29,880
yes we can. Can we figure out okay, something's going

912
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:30,360
on here?

913
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:31,159
Speaker 2: Yes?

914
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,800
Speaker 3: But are we also using trained and practiced I at

915
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:39,239
watching your effect, how you say things, what makes you squirm,

916
00:52:39,599 --> 00:52:44,039
what makes you tense, what changes your facial expression, your tone,

917
00:52:44,079 --> 00:52:49,880
what causes micro emotional releases or expressions? Yes, because we

918
00:52:50,039 --> 00:52:55,320
also have sat for thousands of hours with people and

919
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:59,679
studying this, and we're trained on how to watch for

920
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,320
the changes that are displayed. So there's a lot of

921
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,760
unconscious movements that people do that we watch. But anybody

922
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:09,559
that's saying I can fix you versus let's see if

923
00:53:09,599 --> 00:53:13,679
we can help but that will figure it out, is

924
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,639
a clue to stay the flock away, or.

925
00:53:17,599 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 1: That I can talk to you for five minutes, I

926
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,039
know you have mommy issues or some shit, you know

927
00:53:22,039 --> 00:53:25,320
what I mean, Like I can see within you and

928
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,840
I know everything that's up with you. Yeah, it's so

929
00:53:28,039 --> 00:53:31,880
wild to make any of those to make any of

930
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:36,039
those assumptions about a client. I think it's wild that

931
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,480
therapists are diagnosing people who are on reality TV shows,

932
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:41,800
like besides the fact that they are in a very

933
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:46,079
specific environment and it's probably scripted, Like you literally have

934
00:53:46,199 --> 00:53:48,800
no idea this person could be. We could be only

935
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,480
getting cuts of this one way that they act, like

936
00:53:51,519 --> 00:53:54,039
what the fuck are you even talking about? You have

937
00:53:54,199 --> 00:53:58,760
absolutely no idea what is going on? And thinking that

938
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,559
and telling somebody that you have the answer and that

939
00:54:05,599 --> 00:54:08,280
you already know what it is and that you can

940
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,920
help and read this book and then you'll be fine

941
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,400
is wild and is completely unethical.

942
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:16,199
Speaker 4: It's unhelpful, it's.

943
00:54:16,079 --> 00:54:20,199
Speaker 1: Unkind like it is what are you doing in this

944
00:54:21,039 --> 00:54:24,400
field if you think you know everything, because babe, you

945
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:25,280
don't know shit.

946
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 3: And learning what you don't know is the first thing

947
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,199
that we're all taught by any good supervisor we ever

948
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:34,719
had is okay, the first thing I want you to

949
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,239
learn and tell me is what you don't know. I mean,

950
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,679
you guys have worked with me in that capacity, and

951
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,960
I probably can echo this is that because I had

952
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,960
good supervisors. It's the supervisor I become as I'll sit

953
00:54:48,039 --> 00:54:50,559
with people and if I'm interviewing you, I'm like, I

954
00:54:50,599 --> 00:54:53,639
want to know why you do this. I want to

955
00:54:53,679 --> 00:54:55,280
know what you're good at, and I want to know

956
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,800
what you're not good at. I want you to know

957
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,760
that because you need to know how to to clients

958
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,480
who you are and how you fit in the salad

959
00:55:03,519 --> 00:55:07,280
of therapy. As a tomato, you are not an end

960
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:08,599
all be all, and people are like, oh no, I'm

961
00:55:08,599 --> 00:55:12,760
good at everything, Like bye, yeah, I'm not okay. So

962
00:55:13,559 --> 00:55:15,760
your homework is to go home. If I wasn't in

963
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:17,440
charge of hiring your homework, because I would not hire

964
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,599
that person. But you're your homework is to go home

965
00:55:19,679 --> 00:55:21,639
and tell me what you're not good at and what

966
00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:26,239
you don't know, because you don't. And none of us understand.

967
00:55:26,559 --> 00:55:28,960
The education we get on a great number of things

968
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,079
in school does not remotely prepare you for reality. It

969
00:55:32,079 --> 00:55:34,880
prepares you to open your mind to learn and start seeing,

970
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,440
but not be ready. And people are like.

971
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:41,079
Speaker 2: No, I'm a LBC, I just graduated. I'm ready to

972
00:55:41,079 --> 00:55:43,360
treat trauma. Bye.

973
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 4: You don't know what you're talking about, babes, We don't know.

974
00:55:47,519 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: Well. The social media therapist is probably the modern day

975
00:55:51,079 --> 00:55:55,679
version of this. Yeah, like Leo yes, Like they're the

976
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,679
modern day version of like giving therapists a bad name,

977
00:55:59,039 --> 00:56:01,559
acting like they know every thing, doing it because they

978
00:56:01,679 --> 00:56:05,880
like attention, yeah, and seeming like they're a genius yeah,

979
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:10,320
and liking the yeah, the power and the attention that

980
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,480
that gives them, then actually practicing ethically right.

981
00:56:13,639 --> 00:56:17,559
Speaker 3: And you know, I think hopefully people are hearing us say,

982
00:56:17,599 --> 00:56:20,360
even though we're doing media stuff, that what we're not

983
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,360
doing and what we've never done is diagnosed real people. Yeah,

984
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:29,440
And we've never offered comments on real people. We might

985
00:56:29,599 --> 00:56:34,000
say like fuck that person, but not a formal opinion

986
00:56:34,199 --> 00:56:37,639
or diagnosis. And I think it's critical to recognize the

987
00:56:37,679 --> 00:56:41,400
difference between We're looking at movies that show us a

988
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:46,280
pretty intimate look into someone for two hours and give

989
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:50,079
you an opportunity to explore an accelerated time frame that

990
00:56:50,159 --> 00:56:54,000
was deliberately crafted, but talking to real people is different.

991
00:56:54,039 --> 00:56:57,400
And the way people present on shows, yes, Hannah is

992
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:01,280
it's it's scripted and or in couraged. I had a

993
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:07,079
friend who was a producer on The Bachelor, like brag, No, yes, brag,

994
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:10,639
all right, where's shit to throw a Brittany I need?

995
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:11,119
Speaker 2: Well?

996
00:57:11,159 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 1: And also too, it just makes us look bad as

997
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,880
a as a as a provider.

998
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 4: It makes us just look bad as a profession.

999
00:57:20,079 --> 00:57:23,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, and people don't realize that you're the attention you're

1000
00:57:23,679 --> 00:57:25,800
drawing to yourself is for the wrong reasons.

1001
00:57:26,079 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 1: And you can and you can smell the bullshit like

1002
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:31,000
you can smell clear bullshit. Well, you can smell like

1003
00:57:31,119 --> 00:57:36,079
the It just also just belittle trust in what we do. Yeah,

1004
00:57:36,119 --> 00:57:39,559
and that it makes people think that therapists or psychiatrists

1005
00:57:39,559 --> 00:57:41,840
get into that work because they get they get the

1006
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:43,559
rocks off right in some capacity.

1007
00:57:44,119 --> 00:57:47,159
Speaker 3: All right, So clearly we have some opinions on a

1008
00:57:47,719 --> 00:57:51,280
doctor Marvin type and some of the stuff we've seen

1009
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,920
in really but let's take a quick break here and

1010
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:56,519
we'll talk a little bit more about some of the

1011
00:57:56,519 --> 00:57:58,039
things that might be driving Leo.

1012
00:58:01,039 --> 00:58:02,679
Speaker 2: So Leo Marvin.

1013
00:58:03,599 --> 00:58:07,119
Speaker 3: Clearly, we've hinted that we have some opinions that we're

1014
00:58:07,119 --> 00:58:08,559
seeing some things that drive him.

1015
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:10,199
Speaker 2: What's his deal?

1016
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,119
Speaker 1: I mean, I think his deal is that he enjoys

1017
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:17,679
the status of being a psychiatrist, But I don't know

1018
00:58:17,719 --> 00:58:21,840
how much he actually enjoys the ethical work of it,

1019
00:58:22,039 --> 00:58:25,360
like the the humbling part of the work, which is

1020
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,360
that you are like a in my opinion, you are

1021
00:58:28,559 --> 00:58:33,039
like a social like social serving kind of you know

1022
00:58:33,079 --> 00:58:35,559
what I mean. Like you are you are a provider

1023
00:58:35,599 --> 00:58:35,880
to the.

1024
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 4: People if you will.

1025
00:58:37,519 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 1: And it's not it shouldn't be about a claim because

1026
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:42,960
you get in your own way, like we've been talking about.

1027
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,039
And it also stifles you because I'll tell you this,

1028
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:49,239
baby steps, as he explained, it is booboo like baby

1029
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:53,199
steps is like CBT one oh one bullshit. It's nothing

1030
00:58:53,199 --> 00:58:54,840
revolutionary as he's described it.

1031
00:58:55,639 --> 00:59:00,519
Speaker 3: No, and even by nineteen ninety one, CBT came out.

1032
00:59:00,559 --> 00:59:04,400
In what the seventies, CBT and RBT came out around

1033
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:06,400
the same time the cognitive based things, and I think

1034
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:09,760
RBT was first, and then CBT. I think RBT was

1035
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:15,000
in the sixties, the late sixties, and CBT early seventies

1036
00:59:15,039 --> 00:59:18,159
or around the same time. But either way, this should

1037
00:59:18,159 --> 00:59:20,719
have been out for thirty years by this point, and

1038
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:27,639
he's absolutely not making anything revolutionary. But he certainly seems

1039
00:59:27,679 --> 00:59:31,639
to be interested in surrounding himself with people that will

1040
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:41,639
provide an sense of grandiosity and self or otherwise obtained

1041
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:46,719
a grandization. And those start to sound a little bit

1042
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,880
like diagnostic words, do they not? What other things do

1043
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:56,719
we see from good old doctor Marvin. Do we see

1044
00:59:57,119 --> 01:00:03,000
a pattern of grandiosity over one need for admiration, Yeah,

1045
01:00:03,159 --> 01:00:08,199
a lack of empathy for others, particularly his son and

1046
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:12,400
Bob and the what's the name of the family?

1047
01:00:13,719 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 4: Oh, I don't remember.

1048
01:00:15,039 --> 01:00:18,639
Speaker 1: I just put down the local community hates Leo, but

1049
01:00:20,119 --> 01:00:23,360
like the Bonnets or the Bennetts or something something like that.

1050
01:00:24,239 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 3: But you know, we're seeing grandiose self of a sense

1051
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:34,599
of self importance. Does anyone think Leo is better than

1052
01:00:34,679 --> 01:00:35,719
Leo thinks Leo.

1053
01:00:35,679 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: Is, well, yeah, he definitely thinks he knows everything and

1054
01:00:42,559 --> 01:00:45,360
well because also what's blinding him this whole movie. Is

1055
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:49,840
he so fixated on this Good Morning America interview and

1056
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,039
what it means to his book. And he was comparing

1057
01:00:52,119 --> 01:00:58,880
himself to other people that have had these fancy situations happen.

1058
01:00:59,519 --> 01:01:03,199
I can't remember who exactly he references, but doctor Ruth. Okay,

1059
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:07,039
keep saying doctor doctor Ruth also did an interview from

1060
01:01:07,039 --> 01:01:08,639
her home or some sand vacation.

1061
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:14,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she sucks, does she something like that? Yeah?

1062
01:01:14,159 --> 01:01:15,239
Speaker 4: I thought that was your opinion.

1063
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:17,239
Speaker 1: No, I don't really know anything about doctor Ruth having

1064
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:18,159
firm opinion on her.

1065
01:01:18,239 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 2: No, he he is like trashing her a little bit.

1066
01:01:21,719 --> 01:01:23,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like no one can be better than him either.

1067
01:01:26,519 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 3: He only belongs in the elite company and he's the best,

1068
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:34,360
and he's most fixated on upholding that.

1069
01:01:35,719 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 1: And also like naming his kid Sigmund. So he's already

1070
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:43,679
setting up his kid, his son, to be a vessel

1071
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:49,199
for his own interests, his own identity. You know, he's

1072
01:01:49,239 --> 01:01:51,800
he's already setting his kid up to not be his

1073
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,559
own person by giving him the name one of the

1074
01:01:54,559 --> 01:01:56,639
most famous specific names there are.

1075
01:01:57,159 --> 01:01:59,559
Speaker 4: There's not like a lot of kids running around named Sigmund.

1076
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,039
Speaker 2: Not in America. No, I've never heard.

1077
01:02:04,119 --> 01:02:07,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, so also not thinking about the position he's putting

1078
01:02:07,719 --> 01:02:11,239
his kid in by naming him. What's sicky is cute,

1079
01:02:11,239 --> 01:02:13,320
but that's still like not common.

1080
01:02:15,639 --> 01:02:20,079
Speaker 3: So I'm starting to detect We're circling something here, what

1081
01:02:20,199 --> 01:02:20,480
might be?

1082
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:22,719
Speaker 2: What is it we might be circling here?

1083
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:24,519
Speaker 4: Our scissistic personality disorder?

1084
01:02:24,679 --> 01:02:31,239
Speaker 3: What a grandiose self of self importance do we have that?

1085
01:02:31,719 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 4: Yes?

1086
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:39,239
Speaker 3: Preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance. Yes, yeah,

1087
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:41,719
not so much beauty or ideal love, but the other ones, Uh,

1088
01:02:42,559 --> 01:02:45,679
belief that they are special and can only be understood

1089
01:02:45,679 --> 01:02:48,000
by others, special or high status people.

1090
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:49,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah for sure.

1091
01:02:49,639 --> 01:02:52,519
Speaker 1: The way he talks to his family too, Yeah, like

1092
01:02:52,519 --> 01:02:53,360
they're all below.

1093
01:02:53,199 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 3: Him, require excessive admiration, absolutely, sense of entitlement, color perscon

1094
01:03:01,199 --> 01:03:05,119
take advantage of others to achieve their own ends.

1095
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:06,639
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, does that what the book think? In

1096
01:03:06,679 --> 01:03:08,840
the beginning of the book and also the whole his

1097
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:11,760
lack of comprehension about why the community hates him, like

1098
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,360
when he yells at that couple, all.

1099
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:16,199
Speaker 2: Right, every right to buy this house, to buy this.

1100
01:03:16,159 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 1: House, like, having no concept of why he's I mean,

1101
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:23,039
it's the same thing we talk about with Bob, which

1102
01:03:23,119 --> 01:03:27,440
is like this true like disconnect about how they make

1103
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,239
other people feel and how to relate to people.

1104
01:03:31,239 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 3: Lack of empathy, believes others are envious of them, although

1105
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:39,159
the couple is actually envious of him. But you know,

1106
01:03:40,199 --> 01:03:44,159
show arrogant or haughty behaviors or attitudes.

1107
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 1: Absolutely couldn't be haughtier in those socks and those short shorts.

1108
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:51,519
Speaker 2: What about the bucket head?

1109
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,679
Speaker 1: The bucket I was a lot and I yeah, I

1110
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,239
think the whole diving situation with his son is such

1111
01:03:57,239 --> 01:04:01,239
a good example of this. Like you are a psychotherapist,

1112
01:04:01,679 --> 01:04:04,239
is how he portrays himself like a psychiatrist who does therapy.

1113
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:07,199
And yet the way that you're engaging with your son

1114
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:11,320
is not the way you're supposed to talk to a

1115
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:15,199
kid or anyone who's scared to do something. Is basically

1116
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:18,880
just like strong arming them and like berating them.

1117
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:23,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's not being super encouraging, and even when he is,

1118
01:04:23,119 --> 01:04:28,000
his patience runs out very quickly. And it's more about

1119
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,920
how the son reflects on him and whether or not

1120
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,719
he's able to help his son be successful than it

1121
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:36,199
is about his son being scared.

1122
01:04:37,039 --> 01:04:39,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not about I want my kid to overcome

1123
01:04:39,679 --> 01:04:43,400
this fear of diving because it'll help him feel actualized

1124
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:47,559
and empowered. It's yeah, the way he behaves is like,

1125
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:50,880
it looks bad on me that I have a son

1126
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:52,679
who can't dive. Who gives a shit if you're a

1127
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:53,440
kid can dive.

1128
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:58,199
Speaker 4: Such a weird thing to want, but that's what to do. People.

1129
01:04:59,559 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 1: Ye, they get stuck on things, start mean things to

1130
01:05:03,039 --> 01:05:05,679
them that don't make any sense, set or just kind

1131
01:05:05,679 --> 01:05:06,360
of seem random.

1132
01:05:06,719 --> 01:05:10,239
Speaker 3: What also seemed like he made it unless I'm inventing it.

1133
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:13,599
He made a comment about because of the school his

1134
01:05:13,679 --> 01:05:16,880
son goes to that this is like a thing that

1135
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:20,400
people do there and they have diving, and like they're

1136
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:23,159
in high society and you know, your son might be

1137
01:05:23,199 --> 01:05:25,559
an Olympian or get scholarships or whatever. But it's like,

1138
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:29,639
you know, it's like it's a crew or polo or

1139
01:05:30,159 --> 01:05:33,239
you know, yeah, I expected things at some private academy

1140
01:05:33,239 --> 01:05:34,639
that has ivy on the fence.

1141
01:05:35,239 --> 01:05:37,920
Speaker 1: Well, he definitely Well, they make it very clear in

1142
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:42,039
the movie that he's one of those parents that was

1143
01:05:42,599 --> 01:05:45,760
waiting to have a version of a son that he

1144
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:50,440
was a speculating he would have. They're not actually getting

1145
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,000
to know the son they actually have, the child they

1146
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:53,559
actually have.

1147
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:56,519
Speaker 4: Because Siggy is wearing he's like a little.

1148
01:05:56,239 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: Goth, you know what I mean, Like he's wearing all

1149
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,320
black outside my favorite.

1150
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 4: I do love him.

1151
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 1: I love him and this Annon hook. This kid's attitude

1152
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,440
is my favorite. Yeah, he was just like fuck all, y'all.

1153
01:06:07,639 --> 01:06:13,239
And and he's obsessed with death. He's kind of neurotic already.

1154
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:16,000
Like he is not an outdoor kid. He's not an

1155
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:17,880
outdoor kid. He's an indoor kid.

1156
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:19,840
Speaker 2: He's listening to the cure. Guys.

1157
01:06:20,039 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's an indoor kid. And his dad doesn't either

1158
01:06:24,679 --> 01:06:29,559
care about that, doesn't perceive that, disregards it. Like I

1159
01:06:29,559 --> 01:06:31,440
feel like he doesn't even perceive it. I feel like

1160
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:34,639
he doesn't even look at his son truly, do you

1161
01:06:34,719 --> 01:06:37,920
know what I mean? Puppet, Yeah, wearing all black.

1162
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 4: Look back at that puppet. Is it time to talk

1163
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:43,400
about the puppets? Guys?

1164
01:06:44,639 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 2: It might be time to talk about the puppets.

1165
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:56,119
Speaker 3: So three was like, okay, two one, what the Hannah fuck?

1166
01:06:57,039 --> 01:07:02,039
Speaker 1: The puppets are so crazy, like so creepy weird, and

1167
01:07:02,119 --> 01:07:04,400
like I know that's the point, but yeah, well and

1168
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:07,760
Brittany brought up as we were walking in, she brought up.

1169
01:07:08,559 --> 01:07:12,800
Having them displayed like that in that way is also

1170
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:14,079
very odd.

1171
01:07:14,599 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 4: Like having them on the mantle. Having them on the mantle.

1172
01:07:17,639 --> 01:07:20,639
Speaker 1: Basically he just uses it to try to get them

1173
01:07:20,679 --> 01:07:25,079
to believe him. Well, he uses it. It's like instead

1174
01:07:25,079 --> 01:07:26,800
of being able to have like a hard heeart with

1175
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:30,280
his daughter, he got to bring the puppet out. It's

1176
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:33,360
like he can't get there with his daughter unless they're

1177
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:36,760
using the puppets as a which is also like, roxy,

1178
01:07:37,039 --> 01:07:39,719
how are you a psychiatrist? If you don't, what are

1179
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:42,480
you doing? Well, he thinks he knows what he's doing right,

1180
01:07:42,519 --> 01:07:46,400
Like he has he has convinced himself. I assume that

1181
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:51,360
using the puppets is the correct psychological way to get

1182
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:57,440
at quote unquote hard conversations instead of using actual social

1183
01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:01,000
skills social intelligence, emotional intelligence, which is one that your

1184
01:08:01,079 --> 01:08:02,000
daughter is way too.

1185
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 4: Fucking old to my using puddets.

1186
01:08:04,159 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 1: Two that she's out in the world you guys are

1187
01:08:06,519 --> 01:08:09,639
like out at like the docks and stuff doing this,

1188
01:08:10,159 --> 01:08:13,360
and then three like oh out in public, two public

1189
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:17,880
like a seventeen year old oor and just that that

1190
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:20,800
actually like gets in the way of the situation. But

1191
01:08:21,039 --> 01:08:22,439
he's doing that thing people can do when they're up

1192
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:26,479
thrown butt, which is they everything that they're using that

1193
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:28,680
might actually be like an avoidance or like a crutch

1194
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:31,399
or something like that, is them having like a great idea.

1195
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:36,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think we're the writing on this is brilliant.

1196
01:08:37,399 --> 01:08:39,680
In particular is that I think what this really is

1197
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:44,600
it's a I think it's a double joke because the

1198
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:46,439
director is Frank Oz, who is one of the most

1199
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:49,359
famous puppeteers in the world. He does Miss Piggy and Yoda,

1200
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:54,039
and Sam Niagle is a classic Henson guy. Him and

1201
01:08:54,079 --> 01:08:58,119
Jim Henson were like the ones and twos of muppets,

1202
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:05,000
but also anaphroid used puppets all the time. So there's

1203
01:09:05,079 --> 01:09:07,920
like a double self referencing joke here that the daughter's

1204
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:09,800
name is Anna and he's making her use puppets, and

1205
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:12,560
she used puppets. Although again with we covered Andofhoid was

1206
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:16,119
actually a brilliant child therapist. She pioneered a lot of

1207
01:09:16,159 --> 01:09:19,239
work and some of her stuff is still used. But

1208
01:09:19,319 --> 01:09:22,560
she would use toys to and puppets to help people

1209
01:09:23,039 --> 01:09:26,439
talk and do one baby whisper or one dollar whisper

1210
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:30,239
at a time which I think we're really tying into

1211
01:09:30,279 --> 01:09:34,199
some meta jokes here, which fits the throne of this movie.

1212
01:09:34,239 --> 01:09:39,000
But as you see that also like the ick that

1213
01:09:39,079 --> 01:09:42,119
you get from like, oh my god, can you imagine

1214
01:09:42,119 --> 01:09:45,720
being a teenager and your dad being outside in short

1215
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:47,680
shorts all those ninety one so that probably is common,

1216
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:51,880
but still a teenager having your dad make you talk

1217
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:54,920
to him with a puppet outside where people are boating

1218
01:09:55,439 --> 01:09:57,640
and looking at you because they have nothing fucking else

1219
01:09:57,680 --> 01:09:58,920
to do, because they're not a boring ass lake.

1220
01:09:59,239 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 1: I would take that puppet and crush it and say,

1221
01:10:03,079 --> 01:10:04,399
this is what you can do with your puppet.

1222
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:04,880
Speaker 4: Asshole.

1223
01:10:05,399 --> 01:10:09,279
Speaker 1: Well, for me, that puppet wouldn't exist any longer, But

1224
01:10:09,319 --> 01:10:10,600
at that time I was set. By the time I

1225
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:13,760
was seventeen, I would have destroyed that puppet in some capacity.

1226
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:15,439
I would have lit it on fire. We're thrown it away,

1227
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:17,239
we're up to apart. Maybe would have made a new one.

1228
01:10:17,359 --> 01:10:19,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, But I think also there's a nice lake right there.

1229
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:20,920
I mean, it's just so apad.

1230
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:22,840
Speaker 1: I would have been like, you've got to be goddamn

1231
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:25,439
crazy if you think I'm about to talk like That's

1232
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:29,960
also something that's so interesting about this movie weird. Interesting

1233
01:10:30,359 --> 01:10:34,520
is how much his family just goes along. They're so

1234
01:10:35,239 --> 01:10:38,039
appeasing of everybody and so appeasing of him, Like the

1235
01:10:38,079 --> 01:10:42,800
only one who really pushes back is Siggy, and the

1236
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:47,000
how like submissive almost like his I maybe we could

1237
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:48,800
get into a whole thing with that, like mom and daughter.

1238
01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:51,079
I mean his wife and daughter are But also I

1239
01:10:51,119 --> 01:10:55,279
think he does that thing which also I think sometimes

1240
01:10:55,319 --> 01:10:57,880
happens in real life, but I think it is also

1241
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:02,720
a tell is when someone like him puts on their

1242
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:06,960
therapist hat to talk to people in their personal life.

1243
01:11:07,119 --> 01:11:11,039
You know, like that's also totally distancing behavior. Though that's

1244
01:11:11,159 --> 01:11:15,279
that's me saying I can't relate to you interpersonally, so

1245
01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:18,359
I'm going to put on my therapist mask to talk

1246
01:11:18,399 --> 01:11:20,720
to you. So it's a way to hide. And so

1247
01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:24,920
it's actually like a distancing technique, a distancing strategy. It's

1248
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:29,439
not an intimacy strategy. And that's why, as people in

1249
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:33,279
my personal life probably know, like I don't, therapists me

1250
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:36,920
and person me are different, not me being like a

1251
01:11:37,239 --> 01:11:39,800
whole different fake person. I'm a therapist, but the way

1252
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:41,319
I talk to clients, it's not the way I talk

1253
01:11:41,319 --> 01:11:44,159
to people in my personal life because that would be

1254
01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:47,680
I think, one, patronizing, but two it's like a distancing thing,

1255
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:50,439
like I'm putting myself in a different space than you.

1256
01:11:51,159 --> 01:11:54,760
I'm removing myself from you personally. By putting on a

1257
01:11:54,760 --> 01:12:00,720
therapist's voice. Was also very demeaning and and you can

1258
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:02,760
feel very cold, like if I was his daughter, I'd

1259
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:04,640
be like, talk to me like a fucking like you're

1260
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:07,279
my fucking dad. Like That's what pissed me off, maybe

1261
01:12:07,279 --> 01:12:09,600
even more than the puppets is put that puppets away,

1262
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:11,720
because that means you're gonna be talking to me like

1263
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:14,079
doctor Marvin and not my fucking dad.

1264
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:17,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's not winning here.

1265
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 3: It's it's really disturbing, creepy behavior, and you can see

1266
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:26,000
that he's struggling to connect, which yet again rings true

1267
01:12:26,039 --> 01:12:31,319
of personality disorders, because you narcissistic personality disorder people are

1268
01:12:31,319 --> 01:12:34,039
people that have that. One of the things that they're

1269
01:12:34,079 --> 01:12:37,479
truly struggling with. Underneath all that is a deep fear

1270
01:12:38,319 --> 01:12:42,319
that they are inadequate. And they go through all this

1271
01:12:42,399 --> 01:12:49,439
effort and get completely intolerant of being exposed, and the

1272
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:56,720
behavior can ramp up drastically. You know, usually not to

1273
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,479
the point of tying bombs or on your patient's neck

1274
01:13:00,279 --> 01:13:02,039
and trying to blow them up.

1275
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:07,920
Speaker 1: But it is it is a clever way to hide,

1276
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:12,680
like it's a clever way to hide that you are struggling,

1277
01:13:13,079 --> 01:13:16,359
that you are having in inadequacy, you know, like by

1278
01:13:16,359 --> 01:13:18,880
putting on his expert hat. This also is like in

1279
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:22,000
Crueltians when in the very beginning with that therapist when

1280
01:13:22,039 --> 01:13:24,520
her daughter's like, don't fucking talk to me, Like, I'm

1281
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:27,920
one of your fucking patients. And there are people that

1282
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:31,199
do that, Like I've been around enough therapists that I

1283
01:13:31,399 --> 01:13:34,399
have run into therapists that I've tried to get to

1284
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:38,199
know personally that do that shit, and it puts me off.

1285
01:13:38,399 --> 01:13:40,479
And I'm in the field, you know what I mean.

1286
01:13:41,079 --> 01:13:44,520
And so I think, if nothing else, the fact that

1287
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:47,359
he has those puppets about his family, I think just

1288
01:13:47,399 --> 01:13:51,319
says so much about how he he acts like the

1289
01:13:51,359 --> 01:13:56,199
family therapist, the family psychiatrist, and not like their dad,

1290
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:58,640
which is also probably why he doesn't have a lot

1291
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:03,600
of actual clout when something like Bob happens where he

1292
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:06,560
because one thing that I can't understand about Leo is

1293
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:10,920
he's not wrong with how much he's like, Bob is

1294
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:14,399
not well, why are you hanging with Bob? Bob can't

1295
01:14:14,399 --> 01:14:16,920
sleep in our son's room, Bob has to go home,

1296
01:14:17,279 --> 01:14:19,880
Bob can't go voting with you. Like, he's not wrong,

1297
01:14:20,319 --> 01:14:24,720
but I think he has demoralized his position in the

1298
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:26,640
family so much that they don't take him seriously in

1299
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:27,000
that way.

1300
01:14:28,079 --> 01:14:31,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're right. I think that they're so

1301
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:34,920
sick of that expert model that they're just even passively

1302
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:38,680
resisting it. And they're like, nah, Bro, we don't even care.

1303
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:42,359
Like Bob's nice, Bob is fun. I think that was

1304
01:14:42,359 --> 01:14:44,479
the thing that they like used it and like Bob

1305
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:46,800
is fun and and I can be fun.

1306
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:48,199
Speaker 2: I'm fun? Am I fun?

1307
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:52,039
Speaker 1: Well he's using he's using their whole vacation as like

1308
01:14:52,079 --> 01:14:55,159
to get ready for his photo shoot interview, Like their

1309
01:14:55,239 --> 01:14:58,840
vacation gets co opted by by that too, which I

1310
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:01,199
feel like also a teenager, the two kids would have

1311
01:15:01,199 --> 01:15:02,840
more of us think about that in real life too,

1312
01:15:03,279 --> 01:15:05,479
like fuck you, we don't even have a real vacation.

1313
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:08,680
You're just I'm a prop right, his daughter is not

1314
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:10,079
mean enough. I could really pump that.

1315
01:15:10,359 --> 01:15:12,479
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, oh yeah for sure.

1316
01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 3: Oh and the one thing that the daughter said, I

1317
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:18,760
am thinking about this having an eight year old and

1318
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,079
a two year old, like or having eight year old

1319
01:15:21,079 --> 01:15:23,840
and two year od daughters. Right when he was like

1320
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:26,279
asking them about like should I put the gun up

1321
01:15:26,399 --> 01:15:28,479
or like the Puppets or like the bust or whatever,

1322
01:15:28,520 --> 01:15:32,439
and like I about fell out of my chair laughing

1323
01:15:32,479 --> 01:15:34,319
when she was like, no, Day, you should put up

1324
01:15:34,319 --> 01:15:38,720
the gun. It makes you like it, but it communicates virility,

1325
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:41,760
Like what teenager would.

1326
01:15:43,119 --> 01:15:43,720
Speaker 4: That in Cosmo?

1327
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:48,159
Speaker 3: But what what teenager would say that with a degree

1328
01:15:48,199 --> 01:15:54,359
of encouragement and not roasting your bitch ass. And I'm like, yeah,

1329
01:15:54,479 --> 01:15:57,520
maybe it's clear you're having some virility problems. Maybe you

1330
01:15:57,520 --> 01:16:01,039
should use the gun. That I could see a teenage

1331
01:16:01,079 --> 01:16:03,319
girl saying to a parent not oh yeah.

1332
01:16:03,399 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. That totally was like, I mean, I know it's

1333
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:08,960
a joke, but like, goddamn well.

1334
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:12,680
Speaker 1: And also, if he really is someone with NPD and

1335
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:16,000
we don't know, I mean, he goes he literally has

1336
01:16:16,039 --> 01:16:18,880
like a psychotic break in this movie, you.

1337
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:20,680
Speaker 2: Know, but oh yeah, he goes catatonic.

1338
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:26,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if he's someone that maybe does have tantrums

1339
01:16:26,039 --> 01:16:29,479
fits whatever at home, which would be more aligned with

1340
01:16:29,479 --> 01:16:30,840
someone who actually has NPD.

1341
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:33,359
Speaker 4: Then you could argue that, like.

1342
01:16:33,319 --> 01:16:36,880
Speaker 1: All these responses that his wife and daughter giving him

1343
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:40,199
specifically is like fawning, right, they're just trying to appease him,

1344
01:16:40,319 --> 01:16:42,880
make him feel good, because if dad feels good, then

1345
01:16:43,399 --> 01:16:47,039
it's chill and he makes money. So we'll just, you know,

1346
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:49,600
we'll just focus on the fact that he provides for

1347
01:16:49,680 --> 01:16:52,319
us when we get nice stuff, and we'll just suck

1348
01:16:52,399 --> 01:16:56,560
up to him so that everything's copastic. We'll use his

1349
01:16:56,600 --> 01:17:00,000
fucking puppets when he wants to use the fucking puppets.

1350
01:17:01,119 --> 01:17:03,680
Speaker 2: I don't think you're wrong. I don't think you're slightly wrong.

1351
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:09,119
Speaker 3: I think that's a very relevant perspective here, because they

1352
01:17:09,239 --> 01:17:10,960
are trying to survive too, and if he's going to

1353
01:17:11,039 --> 01:17:14,880
be ridiculous and level up, and maybe I don't know,

1354
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:18,600
ty gunpowder satchels around their necks, if they're not compliant,

1355
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:21,960
maybe it's easier to compliment them.

1356
01:17:22,319 --> 01:17:25,000
Speaker 1: I will say there were a few things that he

1357
01:17:25,079 --> 01:17:29,560
does do that I wanted to highlight as provider appropriate,

1358
01:17:30,359 --> 01:17:34,479
you know, because this movie does that thing where I

1359
01:17:34,479 --> 01:17:36,600
think they try to legitimize him by having him do

1360
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:38,399
enough things that an actual provider would do.

1361
01:17:40,560 --> 01:17:41,600
Speaker 2: In the beginning in the.

1362
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:45,079
Speaker 3: First beginning second acts of the movie, absolutely when he's like, yeah.

1363
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:48,680
Speaker 1: Like he provides a temporary provider for Bob when he's

1364
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:50,880
going to go on vacation. He's like, you can talk

1365
01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:54,960
to doctor et cetera while I'm on vacation.

1366
01:17:55,039 --> 01:17:57,079
Speaker 4: Which is something that you do, especially when you.

1367
01:17:57,079 --> 01:18:01,359
Speaker 1: Have clientele that you know need someone they can reach

1368
01:18:01,399 --> 01:18:04,199
out to, like they're more crisis oriented or high level,

1369
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:06,239
Like even if you're going to go away for like

1370
01:18:06,319 --> 01:18:09,279
a long weekend, you might need to provide a touch

1371
01:18:09,319 --> 01:18:11,920
person that they can get in contact with, especially someone

1372
01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:16,680
who's unknown to him supposedly like Bob. He also tells

1373
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:19,359
Bob to go to the er when he first calls him,

1374
01:18:19,399 --> 01:18:22,119
right when he's on vacation, and he's like he tries

1375
01:18:22,119 --> 01:18:25,600
to have boundaries with him in the beginning, which isn't

1376
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:29,159
bad either. And I will say him pointing out that

1377
01:18:29,199 --> 01:18:30,880
it was a positive when Bob made it all the

1378
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:33,680
way to the vacation home would also be something I

1379
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:35,880
could see me doing, Well, you know, it's great that

1380
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:38,119
you made it all the way here, like with your

1381
01:18:38,119 --> 01:18:41,800
recophobia and stuff, like framing them as a positive and

1382
01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:45,199
then also trying to set boundaries again, like go home, Bob. Yeah,

1383
01:18:45,239 --> 01:18:46,760
but go home, Bob, I'll.

1384
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:49,680
Speaker 2: Call you in three hours. Yeah.

1385
01:18:50,159 --> 01:18:53,079
Speaker 1: But something he doesn't do, which I think is more

1386
01:18:53,479 --> 01:18:56,520
the movie than necessarily even anything about Leo, unless you

1387
01:18:56,520 --> 01:19:01,720
guys think differently, is no one takes Bob seriously enough.

1388
01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:04,760
Like if I was in Leo's position and I had

1389
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:07,159
a client who was new to me, who's already done

1390
01:19:07,199 --> 01:19:11,119
all this like stocky stuff to me, and my family's there,

1391
01:19:11,640 --> 01:19:14,039
like the fact that like there's no conversation around, like Bob,

1392
01:19:14,079 --> 01:19:17,680
if you don't go, I will have to call the police,

1393
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:20,920
Like you have to show me that you have control

1394
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:25,319
over yourself. You know, someone like Bob would probably get

1395
01:19:25,359 --> 01:19:27,520
hospitalized very quickly into the and then there wouldn't be

1396
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:31,199
a movie. But someone presenting like Bob with their psychiatrists

1397
01:19:31,239 --> 01:19:35,279
would get hospitalized. Oh well he got hospitals out of

1398
01:19:35,279 --> 01:19:36,960
spite very late into the movie.

1399
01:19:37,079 --> 01:19:38,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he got hospitalized.

1400
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:41,960
Speaker 1: And there's no and maybe this is the ego part

1401
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:47,840
of Leo, but there's no urgency around how what is

1402
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:51,159
actually concerning about Bob is how unpredictable he is, how

1403
01:19:51,159 --> 01:19:54,079
far he's willing to go. He's an unknown quantity to

1404
01:19:54,199 --> 01:19:56,880
Leo other than what he's showing Leo, which is that

1405
01:19:57,079 --> 01:19:59,960
I don't have boundaries. I don't know when to say no,

1406
01:20:00,079 --> 01:20:02,319
I don't accept no as an answer. I don't know

1407
01:20:02,359 --> 01:20:04,079
how far I'll go hang out with you, I'll go

1408
01:20:04,119 --> 01:20:07,199
find your kids if I can't have access to you.

1409
01:20:08,399 --> 01:20:12,359
And that is really troubling, and Leo gives him a

1410
01:20:12,399 --> 01:20:16,439
lot of opportunities to turn it around and he doesn't.

1411
01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:20,479
Speaker 3: True, But because the movie is the movie, I do

1412
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:24,000
feel like in this there's like some interesting caveats. Is

1413
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:28,079
that Bob did comply, but Bob was easily tilted back

1414
01:20:28,159 --> 01:20:33,720
by the old married couple and his daughter because remember

1415
01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:34,880
Bob was just gonna walk.

1416
01:20:34,920 --> 01:20:35,520
Speaker 2: Bob left.

1417
01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:39,720
Speaker 3: He did comply, and the daughter picked him up all

1418
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:40,479
by herself.

1419
01:20:41,199 --> 01:20:43,640
Speaker 2: That was her own doing, and that you know, like

1420
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:45,920
looped things back in which.

1421
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:49,319
Speaker 3: If it were my daughter and also surrounded forever, that

1422
01:20:49,479 --> 01:20:50,319
feels bizarre too.

1423
01:20:50,359 --> 01:20:52,279
Speaker 1: And maybe it's the nineties, I don't know, but I

1424
01:20:52,319 --> 01:20:55,239
feel like nowadays so weird. If I was with my

1425
01:20:55,399 --> 01:20:57,720
family and someone that they knew was one of my

1426
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:00,560
clients just shut up out of the blue and was

1427
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:04,479
acting against what I was saying to them, I think

1428
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:09,239
they'd be more troubled than like curious or like hey, Bob,

1429
01:21:09,560 --> 01:21:12,920
don't get discouraged. They would be like, uh, we saw

1430
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:15,239
that guy on the street. You might need to call

1431
01:21:15,319 --> 01:21:17,319
the cops, or you might have to call someone because

1432
01:21:17,359 --> 01:21:18,199
I think he needs help.

1433
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:20,119
Speaker 2: Correct.

1434
01:21:20,239 --> 01:21:22,560
Speaker 3: I think i'd have, you know, probably need to come

1435
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:24,439
over with a handsdal from my wife. That means immediately

1436
01:21:24,479 --> 01:21:29,439
call the police. Let's take a break. How have we

1437
01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:34,359
not talked about the fact that Bob said he was

1438
01:21:35,039 --> 01:21:39,199
fucking dead. Then Leo got the call that Bob killed

1439
01:21:39,239 --> 01:21:40,119
himself and he's like.

1440
01:21:41,199 --> 01:21:43,279
Speaker 4: Oh that okay, I gotta be real.

1441
01:21:43,479 --> 01:21:46,800
Speaker 1: That made me laugh when he because because it's supposed

1442
01:21:46,800 --> 01:21:48,920
to make you laugh, right, when Leo gets that call

1443
01:21:49,119 --> 01:21:51,760
and he says, oh to his wife that kind of

1444
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:57,760
his head kill himself, Okay, Like I did laugh because

1445
01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:01,439
it was so absurd, like the the mood change or

1446
01:22:01,439 --> 01:22:03,279
the mood shift. But I think that just says more

1447
01:22:03,319 --> 01:22:05,319
about Leo and his bullshit.

1448
01:22:06,359 --> 01:22:09,720
Speaker 2: Leo like his response.

1449
01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:11,119
Speaker 4: His response is insane.

1450
01:22:11,199 --> 01:22:14,119
Speaker 3: It's insane, it's super narcissistic, like all all but got

1451
01:22:14,159 --> 01:22:16,520
to get my beauty sleep for the interview.

1452
01:22:17,399 --> 01:22:19,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, like it just sees my brain and I do

1453
01:22:19,479 --> 01:22:22,000
think there's a certain level of compartmentalizing we do at

1454
01:22:22,000 --> 01:22:24,159
this job because you kind of have to. But even

1455
01:22:24,199 --> 01:22:27,199
if I only met with someone once, it would still

1456
01:22:27,239 --> 01:22:30,680
like shake me like that would probably if nothing else,

1457
01:22:30,760 --> 01:22:33,600
lay awake in bed for like another hour, just kind

1458
01:22:33,640 --> 01:22:34,319
of thinking about it.

1459
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:36,159
Speaker 3: Let me speak to someone that does has happened to

1460
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:41,199
all of those things. And it was the real deal

1461
01:22:42,199 --> 01:22:44,359
for me. I got I had seen a person once

1462
01:22:44,399 --> 01:22:52,199
and that was it. And Leo's response was ridiculous, we'd

1463
01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:56,479
get messed up that even if you only see one once,

1464
01:22:56,520 --> 01:22:59,000
you won't feel responsible. But still you're not going to

1465
01:22:59,119 --> 01:23:03,640
just be like clap on, clap off. No, it's gonna

1466
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:06,159
mess you up, and you're gonna wonder and you're gonna

1467
01:23:06,239 --> 01:23:09,479
be anxious and upset. And if you have any degree

1468
01:23:09,479 --> 01:23:12,600
of empathy as a human, you know, somebody died and

1469
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:16,000
you probably won't feel like you could help them if

1470
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:18,560
you're a reasonable human. But it's still going across your

1471
01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:20,640
mind and you're gonna be able to talk yourself out

1472
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:23,000
of it the first you know, five minutes, you're gonna

1473
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:24,840
be oh my god, what did I miss?

1474
01:23:25,399 --> 01:23:28,119
Speaker 2: And Leo's just like, well.

1475
01:23:27,920 --> 01:23:29,720
Speaker 1: That was definitely a point in the rioting to show

1476
01:23:29,800 --> 01:23:32,560
us that Leo is a bus of shits.

1477
01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:34,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, and also that.

1478
01:23:34,079 --> 01:23:35,840
Speaker 1: He says, well, we're not gonna let it ruin our

1479
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:38,199
vacationer the bar.

1480
01:23:38,359 --> 01:23:40,399
Speaker 4: Fuck yeah, that quick.

1481
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:42,520
Speaker 1: I don't fucking think so, Bro, you would be I

1482
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:43,760
would be a fucking wreck.

1483
01:23:44,119 --> 01:23:45,359
Speaker 2: No, I would be a wreck.

1484
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:46,279
Speaker 4: How could you not be?

1485
01:23:47,119 --> 01:23:47,239
Speaker 2: Well?

1486
01:23:47,279 --> 01:23:49,079
Speaker 4: And also because no.

1487
01:23:49,000 --> 01:23:51,319
Speaker 3: You get messed up with human you can associated. I

1488
01:23:51,399 --> 01:23:54,640
associated for a bit, I bet, like when I happened again,

1489
01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:58,239
I felt terrible. But anybody I know that that's happened

1490
01:23:58,279 --> 01:23:59,960
to because it will happen to all of us. They

1491
01:24:00,119 --> 01:24:02,720
tell you in school, is gonna happen to you. And

1492
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:04,560
that Leo was such a piece of shit about it

1493
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:07,119
offended me as a therapist, But I mean he's supposed to.

1494
01:24:07,119 --> 01:24:11,159
Speaker 2: He's literally the fucking worst. Hey, it's the worst.

1495
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:12,800
Speaker 1: Because I think a through line through all of it,

1496
01:24:13,199 --> 01:24:19,800
like I said, is that he doesn't take Bob's erraticism seriously,

1497
01:24:20,399 --> 01:24:23,000
like even in the office, like I can see when

1498
01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:25,600
he first meets Bob and Bob's like rolling around on

1499
01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:29,439
the ground, Like I don't think it's a bad response

1500
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:31,920
to not get caught up in that you know, like

1501
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:33,600
I could definitely see me. Especially if I think this

1502
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:35,920
is like a tension seeking behavior, it's not a bad

1503
01:24:35,960 --> 01:24:39,279
therapeutic response to not get caught up in it. So

1504
01:24:39,439 --> 01:24:40,720
just kind of the what he does there, which is

1505
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:42,520
just kind of sits there and waits for him to

1506
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:45,439
be done doing whatever he's doing, you know what I mean,

1507
01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:49,119
that's that's appropriate if you know the client and you

1508
01:24:49,239 --> 01:24:52,720
know why they do that, right, And I've worked with

1509
01:24:52,720 --> 01:24:54,920
plenty of kids where I'm like, I'm not gonna get

1510
01:24:55,239 --> 01:25:00,399
riled up by whatever you think you're doing. But like saying,

1511
01:25:00,399 --> 01:25:04,520
like throughout this whole movie, he's not taking it seriously,

1512
01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:08,239
and even like this, he's not taking that seriously or

1513
01:25:08,279 --> 01:25:10,359
even doing the thing, which is a little more self serving,

1514
01:25:10,399 --> 01:25:12,479
but I think also happens to therapist when you get

1515
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:14,439
in your head about did I miss something?

1516
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:15,439
Speaker 2: Did I fuck up?

1517
01:25:15,439 --> 01:25:17,880
Speaker 1: Even if you're worried about your own ass, the fact

1518
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:19,439
that he just is so off his own I mean,

1519
01:25:19,439 --> 01:25:21,279
this goes back to the ego part, right, Like he

1520
01:25:21,319 --> 01:25:24,800
doesn't even have that beat of like, oh shit, I'm

1521
01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:28,560
the last point of contact that this guy had before

1522
01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:32,319
he died by suicide. Did I miss something up? Did

1523
01:25:32,359 --> 01:25:34,039
I miss something. Am I going to get in trouble?

1524
01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:36,840
And the only time he takes Bob seriously in terms

1525
01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:39,600
of like go to the hospital is that despite because

1526
01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:43,359
Bob is ruining his life and not because Bob needs

1527
01:25:43,399 --> 01:25:45,439
to be in the hospital, because he is making a

1528
01:25:45,479 --> 01:25:51,600
lot of impulsive, inappropriate, potentially dangerous choices.

1529
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:54,680
Speaker 4: Where he could be harming himself for someone else.

1530
01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:56,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he didn't even.

1531
01:25:58,039 --> 01:26:00,640
Speaker 3: Rationally explain that he's just like dropped if at the hospital,

1532
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:03,399
which means the psychiatrist there did the appropriate thing of

1533
01:26:03,680 --> 01:26:08,720
they assessed him. All the staff everyone is like, he's fine,

1534
01:26:08,920 --> 01:26:09,920
I can't keep him here.

1535
01:26:11,039 --> 01:26:14,159
Speaker 1: Well, that psych doctor was she was actually a real

1536
01:26:14,239 --> 01:26:18,319
one in this movie, and that she assesses him as

1537
01:26:18,359 --> 01:26:21,319
like a favor quote unquote to doctor Leo. But also

1538
01:26:21,359 --> 01:26:23,079
I could see him being like, I'm gonna trust you

1539
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:26,399
that you're bringing someone in because he's acting.

1540
01:26:26,479 --> 01:26:27,239
Speaker 4: Who knows what Leo.

1541
01:26:27,159 --> 01:26:32,479
Speaker 1: Told her really, But she goes she like in thirty seconds,

1542
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:35,520
she does a better job of being a psych provider

1543
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:38,600
than he does. Where she goes, nothing's wrong with him,

1544
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:40,960
I'm not going to keep him here at your request.

1545
01:26:41,520 --> 01:26:45,199
If I've assessed that he's fine, I'm going to let

1546
01:26:45,319 --> 01:26:48,119
you off the hook for this because this could be

1547
01:26:48,199 --> 01:26:51,800
your ass. Like she also does him a favor by saying,

1548
01:26:51,840 --> 01:26:54,359
like you can get him now or you cannot, and

1549
01:26:54,399 --> 01:26:56,520
then we're gonna have a problem basically like I'm not

1550
01:26:56,800 --> 01:26:58,840
like I'm And then she also says you shouldn't let

1551
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:01,680
him sleep in your pajamas. So she also says to him,

1552
01:27:02,199 --> 01:27:06,239
this is your fault too. You blurred the lines with him,

1553
01:27:07,319 --> 01:27:10,880
and so now it's weird. Now it's weird, and that's

1554
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:12,840
and now you're done putting up with him. So now

1555
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:15,239
he is to go to hospital when you reinforce this

1556
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:22,319
this relationship. Just how truly irresponsible he is in most

1557
01:27:22,479 --> 01:27:28,880
aspects of portraying this and just what uh what a

1558
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:33,960
fucking asshole, you know, like a shit for brains? Yeah,

1559
01:27:35,319 --> 01:27:37,239
just like what are you again? Like what are you

1560
01:27:37,359 --> 01:27:40,039
doing in this field? Well, and with someone like Bob,

1561
01:27:40,119 --> 01:27:43,119
how much mixed messaging he's giving him exactly need to

1562
01:27:43,199 --> 01:27:45,680
go away, but I'll talk to you once, like you

1563
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:47,680
need to go away, but you can sleep in his bedroom.

1564
01:27:48,119 --> 01:27:51,680
If someone had the diagnoses that we're giving to Bob

1565
01:27:52,159 --> 01:27:55,800
and they were truly in distress in a real way,

1566
01:27:57,439 --> 01:28:02,039
blowing them off or reinforcing their behavior is such.

1567
01:28:02,720 --> 01:28:05,439
Speaker 4: It's like the opposite of what you should be doing.

1568
01:28:05,520 --> 01:28:06,439
Speaker 2: Like that's what I mean.

1569
01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:11,720
Speaker 1: Like it's so comically bad. He's such an awful provider

1570
01:28:12,239 --> 01:28:12,720
he has.

1571
01:28:13,279 --> 01:28:13,680
Speaker 2: It's so.

1572
01:28:15,479 --> 01:28:20,079
Speaker 1: Blatant with like no no sense of any consequences, well

1573
01:28:20,079 --> 01:28:22,920
of any kind. It's just like wild to see that

1574
01:28:23,159 --> 01:28:26,840
kind of dismissive person.

1575
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:30,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, Bob should have been hospitalized immediately. Someone is that

1576
01:28:31,119 --> 01:28:34,079
unwell that they're not perceiving consequences, they're showing an inability

1577
01:28:34,119 --> 01:28:37,560
to care for self, detachment from reality that this is okay.

1578
01:28:38,199 --> 01:28:42,800
Probably should be hospitalized at least evaluated at a hospital immediately,

1579
01:28:43,079 --> 01:28:47,640
not dismissed, not out of your sight, Call an ambulance,

1580
01:28:48,399 --> 01:28:51,680
get him on it, so that he is now adequately

1581
01:28:51,760 --> 01:28:55,760
cared for and in the hands of someone else. But

1582
01:28:55,880 --> 01:28:58,359
if he shows up on your doorstep, yeah, if he's

1583
01:28:58,520 --> 01:29:01,239
not being unsafe, you can, you know, get him into

1584
01:29:01,600 --> 01:29:02,319
an ambulance.

1585
01:29:02,399 --> 01:29:04,000
Speaker 2: But he hasn't got to go to the hospital.

1586
01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:07,640
Speaker 1: And also, one thing he never says to Bob, which

1587
01:29:07,680 --> 01:29:11,439
is maybe neither here nor they're given the context is Bob,

1588
01:29:11,600 --> 01:29:14,119
if you really want to work with me, if you

1589
01:29:14,159 --> 01:29:16,239
really want to work with me after this, Like in

1590
01:29:16,319 --> 01:29:17,960
the very beginning of this movie, like when he first

1591
01:29:17,960 --> 01:29:20,840
shows up, we can't be friends, we can't hang out,

1592
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:23,560
we can't have a dual relationship. So he doesn't even

1593
01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:28,279
try to meet Bob, where maybe Bob is thinking like

1594
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:31,399
buy in from Bob, Like if I was really going

1595
01:29:31,479 --> 01:29:34,479
to give Bob the benefit of the doubt and be like, hey, buddy,

1596
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:36,479
it seems like you really want to work with me,

1597
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:42,199
that's great. And if we develop this personal dynamic because

1598
01:29:42,199 --> 01:29:44,279
you're here on vacation where I am, and if.

1599
01:29:44,439 --> 01:29:45,680
Speaker 4: When he says like we don't have to work, we

1600
01:29:45,760 --> 01:29:46,359
can just be friends.

1601
01:29:46,439 --> 01:29:49,199
Speaker 1: What he says that later in the movie, I think

1602
01:29:49,279 --> 01:29:53,880
it says so much about how silly, stupid whatever Leo

1603
01:29:54,039 --> 01:29:56,800
is that he doesn't use that to his advantage in

1604
01:29:56,920 --> 01:30:00,560
a therapeutic way of like, hey, you really want to

1605
01:30:00,560 --> 01:30:05,760
work with me, that's great. And if you can't go away, basically,

1606
01:30:06,039 --> 01:30:10,399
if you can't keep our relationship professional, we can't work together.

1607
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:13,159
You you're gonna poison it. And once we have this

1608
01:30:13,239 --> 01:30:16,960
personal dynamic, we I can't be your psychiatrists at all.

1609
01:30:17,680 --> 01:30:19,439
And he doesn't even bring up that part of it

1610
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:22,399
that like what's inappropriate is like the dual relationship aspect

1611
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:24,920
of nothing else, none of it.

1612
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:30,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, so seems like we're pretty pretty clear here that

1613
01:30:31,359 --> 01:30:36,840
Leo Marvin is up there with among the worst psych providers,

1614
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:37,920
the worst examples.

1615
01:30:38,560 --> 01:30:40,159
Speaker 1: Well, I mean he tries to kill him by the end,

1616
01:30:40,199 --> 01:30:41,920
so we haven't even talked about that part he tries

1617
01:30:41,960 --> 01:30:43,199
to He just tried.

1618
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:43,600
Speaker 2: To trust.

1619
01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:49,319
Speaker 3: Him up, like yeah, well and then here's where it

1620
01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:54,079
gets like good, the epilogue little PostScript thing made me

1621
01:30:54,680 --> 01:30:55,760
fucking die laughing.

1622
01:30:55,960 --> 01:31:00,079
Speaker 2: That was brilliant comedy. That Bob marries his sister.

1623
01:31:01,479 --> 01:31:05,039
Speaker 3: And went back to school to become a psychologist and

1624
01:31:05,239 --> 01:31:10,960
invent and then wrote a book called death Therapy because

1625
01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:12,840
he thought what Leo was trying to do to him

1626
01:31:12,920 --> 01:31:15,439
wasn't kill him, but teach him to overcome his fear

1627
01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:18,600
of death, like exposure therapy, exposure therapy and prolonged exposure

1628
01:31:18,640 --> 01:31:22,319
therapy in particular. Right, but Leo Marvin was suing him

1629
01:31:22,359 --> 01:31:28,600
for the rights like absolute narcissistic personality move like oh no,

1630
01:31:28,840 --> 01:31:30,720
you can't use the thing I invented.

1631
01:31:30,399 --> 01:31:35,039
Speaker 2: To try to kill you. I was having a psychotic

1632
01:31:35,119 --> 01:31:39,760
break trying to kill you. You blew up my house

1633
01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:43,760
and now I'm going to sue you for the rights

1634
01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:47,119
of the method. I almost killed you with what.

1635
01:31:49,199 --> 01:31:51,439
Speaker 1: Well, it's that thing whereas he has if he has NPD,

1636
01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:54,600
which is he can't lose, he cannot do it. He

1637
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:58,079
cannot give ground or anything he perceives as losing, and

1638
01:31:58,199 --> 01:32:00,239
he can't lose to Bob. I mean, that's where this

1639
01:32:00,359 --> 01:32:04,279
movie goes, is he can't lose to Bob. And Bob

1640
01:32:04,359 --> 01:32:06,439
also fucked up the interview. Bob was getting more of

1641
01:32:06,479 --> 01:32:08,159
the attention, like we didn't even talk about all that

1642
01:32:08,199 --> 01:32:09,960
stuff like the good Morning American.

1643
01:32:10,840 --> 01:32:14,720
Speaker 4: Right like a beat that's the movie Bingers.

1644
01:32:14,600 --> 01:32:17,039
Speaker 1: And just talk about it in chronological order. But like

1645
01:32:17,119 --> 01:32:20,199
even that part him saying that Bob's my patient, having

1646
01:32:20,319 --> 01:32:21,600
Bob there, like.

1647
01:32:21,640 --> 01:32:23,800
Speaker 4: The way this hip hop was hip a thing in

1648
01:32:23,880 --> 01:32:24,359
nineteen nine.

1649
01:32:25,439 --> 01:32:30,399
Speaker 1: It was ninety six, okay, but but still, like like

1650
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:32,800
I said, once again, this mixed messaging he's sending Bob,

1651
01:32:32,840 --> 01:32:35,760
which is so irresponsible of like he's doing that push

1652
01:32:35,800 --> 01:32:37,760
pull thing that will mix them with personal disorder. Go

1653
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:40,960
absolutely batchit and not their fault, you know what I mean,

1654
01:32:41,079 --> 01:32:42,920
Like that really fucks with someone with person disorder, which

1655
01:32:42,960 --> 01:32:44,399
is like go away.

1656
01:32:44,960 --> 01:32:47,479
Speaker 4: But you can sit here, next meeting, there's interview. Go away.

1657
01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:49,920
You can sleep in my pajamas in my kid's bedroom.

1658
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:53,239
Speaker 2: Oh no, Bob identified himself. He said he's a local

1659
01:32:53,279 --> 01:32:54,479
man and Bob'sadva's patient.

1660
01:32:54,800 --> 01:32:55,119
Speaker 4: Oh okay.

1661
01:32:55,119 --> 01:32:57,880
Speaker 2: Bob identified himself, and the producer grabbed him.

1662
01:32:57,880 --> 01:33:00,000
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, you have a patient here, you're seeing patient,

1663
01:33:00,039 --> 01:33:04,520
and since you're home, like yeah, and Leo couldn't then

1664
01:33:05,079 --> 01:33:06,119
break face and just go.

1665
01:33:07,680 --> 01:33:10,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm sorry, No, he's he's not part of this.

1666
01:33:10,680 --> 01:33:12,920
Speaker 4: But then it becomes that thing of like who's gonna

1667
01:33:12,960 --> 01:33:13,920
win me or Bob?

1668
01:33:14,479 --> 01:33:16,439
Speaker 2: And also how do I keep the attention?

1669
01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:19,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I gotta boom. I gotta boom the fuck up.

1670
01:33:19,279 --> 01:33:20,039
Speaker 2: And save face.

1671
01:33:20,279 --> 01:33:23,439
Speaker 4: I gotta blow him up. The only way he kills him.

1672
01:33:23,720 --> 01:33:26,319
Speaker 2: I gotta kill you now, buddy, not shoot him. It's

1673
01:33:26,359 --> 01:33:26,840
too messy.

1674
01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:30,239
Speaker 1: That's when he starts to do that in the movie,

1675
01:33:30,279 --> 01:33:32,159
which I didn't remember this part at all. Yeah, I

1676
01:33:32,199 --> 01:33:34,840
don't remember that I went this this far. But he's

1677
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:36,960
like talking, He's like that'd be too much. I was like,

1678
01:33:37,039 --> 01:33:39,439
oh my god, he's gonna trying to kill Bob.

1679
01:33:40,039 --> 01:33:43,680
Speaker 4: He has lost his mind, Like he has lost his mind. Yeah,

1680
01:33:45,119 --> 01:33:47,560
but anyway, should we take a break here and be back.

1681
01:33:47,720 --> 01:33:50,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're at one. I don't even know if we need.

1682
01:33:50,560 --> 01:33:52,560
Speaker 4: To do treatment. I think we've done a lot of

1683
01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:53,439
this is what you don't do.

1684
01:33:54,159 --> 01:33:57,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think this is a treatment movie. I

1685
01:33:57,239 --> 01:34:02,000
think this is a how did not be doctor Leo asshole?

1686
01:34:02,560 --> 01:34:05,439
Speaker 1: Instead of doing treatment, we're just gonna basically reiterate that

1687
01:34:05,720 --> 01:34:08,920
everything that Leo does in this movie is a therapist, psychiatrist, whatever.

1688
01:34:09,479 --> 01:34:09,960
Speaker 2: Don't do that.

1689
01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:13,359
Speaker 4: Everything he's doing isn't helpful for.

1690
01:34:13,439 --> 01:34:16,000
Speaker 1: Someone like Bob. Is the version of exposure therapy that

1691
01:34:16,119 --> 01:34:18,960
could work if he is OCD like we speculate, Yeah,

1692
01:34:19,119 --> 01:34:19,560
but not this.

1693
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:22,000
Speaker 4: Well, it's not exposure therapy. He's trying to.

1694
01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:24,840
Speaker 2: He's trying to get therapy.

1695
01:34:25,880 --> 01:34:26,680
Speaker 4: It's death therapy.

1696
01:34:26,880 --> 01:34:28,439
Speaker 1: You know what you should do if you're if you're

1697
01:34:28,479 --> 01:34:31,119
client scared of death, bury him alive in.

1698
01:34:31,159 --> 01:34:33,600
Speaker 2: A box in a box, to bury you alive in

1699
01:34:33,640 --> 01:34:34,079
a box.

1700
01:34:34,479 --> 01:34:37,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like, yeah, so don't do what Leo

1701
01:34:37,279 --> 01:34:39,640
does honestly with someone like Bob. I guess the only

1702
01:34:39,680 --> 01:34:41,399
thing I would say for treatment is he could probably

1703
01:34:41,479 --> 01:34:45,199
benefit from a community mental health agency where like he

1704
01:34:45,239 --> 01:34:47,960
gets visited on a regular basis by someone yes, who

1705
01:34:48,000 --> 01:34:50,319
knows how to boundaries with him, like he'd be I

1706
01:34:50,399 --> 01:34:51,199
work for Thresholds.

1707
01:34:51,199 --> 01:34:52,640
Speaker 4: I think he'd be a good threshold member.

1708
01:34:52,720 --> 01:34:54,680
Speaker 1: Like we definitely work with people like Bob where they

1709
01:34:54,800 --> 01:34:57,680
just don't have like the best social skills. They because

1710
01:34:57,680 --> 01:35:00,359
they have stuff going on mental health wise that their

1711
01:35:00,439 --> 01:35:02,760
life small or their world small, or like they have

1712
01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:06,159
trouble making community getting their needs met.

1713
01:35:06,279 --> 01:35:08,760
Speaker 2: So and like he actually lives in.

1714
01:35:08,800 --> 01:35:12,399
Speaker 1: A room that's very similar to like rooms we've had

1715
01:35:12,439 --> 01:35:17,399
to visit people in like single room occupancies SROs Elwood.

1716
01:35:17,039 --> 01:35:19,920
Speaker 3: Blues was in one of the rooms you guys almost

1717
01:35:19,920 --> 01:35:22,159
certainly went to in the Blues Brothers.

1718
01:35:23,039 --> 01:35:26,239
Speaker 2: So these this kind of room was featured a lot

1719
01:35:26,319 --> 01:35:27,399
in movies of this era.

1720
01:35:27,680 --> 01:35:30,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he he would really benefit and I think

1721
01:35:30,359 --> 01:35:33,640
he would probably do really well with having social workers

1722
01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:36,479
who come to his place, encourage him to go out

1723
01:35:36,479 --> 01:35:38,800
in the world, are with him like a lot, like

1724
01:35:38,880 --> 01:35:40,439
with him if he wants to ride the bus, will

1725
01:35:40,439 --> 01:35:44,520
take in places like it's a very wrap around the

1726
01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:48,359
kind of service where we help people who struggle to

1727
01:35:48,479 --> 01:35:52,560
be in the world independently get like social interaction, get

1728
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:56,279
community interaction, get their needs met like we help them

1729
01:35:56,359 --> 01:35:59,039
kind of with the baby step stuff actually, like we'll

1730
01:35:59,119 --> 01:36:01,119
ride the train with you, yeah, the l with you,

1731
01:36:01,199 --> 01:36:03,399
and then maybe you can try on your own yep,

1732
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:06,399
And so I think he would really benefit from something

1733
01:36:06,520 --> 01:36:09,760
like that. I think him going to this like fancy

1734
01:36:09,880 --> 01:36:13,920
outpatient psychiatrist is not the right setting for someone like

1735
01:36:14,000 --> 01:36:18,359
Bob at all, even from like an affordability sense, but

1736
01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:22,079
just because that's not really what he needs. Like maybe

1737
01:36:22,199 --> 01:36:25,479
Leo could give him medication. Maybe that's about it.

1738
01:36:25,840 --> 01:36:34,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I think Bob clearly needs multiple layers, and

1739
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:39,000
more on the social work end probably than on the

1740
01:36:40,159 --> 01:36:43,319
therapy end. Heuld probably benefit from both, but the full

1741
01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:50,520
wrap around of medical, counseling, psychological, and social work. There's

1742
01:36:50,640 --> 01:36:54,800
all professions covered a little bit different of an angle.

1743
01:36:55,119 --> 01:36:57,760
The social work end is what you're talking about with

1744
01:36:57,800 --> 01:37:00,760
community mental health think really that's more social work is

1745
01:37:00,800 --> 01:37:03,560
geared to do, how do we help you access services

1746
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:07,880
and break down barriers to the systems that are full

1747
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:13,720
of barriers and nonsense for chronically ill people, like proving

1748
01:37:13,800 --> 01:37:16,680
you are chronically ill every year with an illness that

1749
01:37:16,720 --> 01:37:20,119
everyone else knows goes away or never goes away. Apologies Yeah,

1750
01:37:20,439 --> 01:37:22,439
it's I think it's a brilliant idea for Bob, and

1751
01:37:22,479 --> 01:37:23,920
I don't really have anything to add on to it

1752
01:37:24,079 --> 01:37:25,880
beyond that because it's brilliant.

1753
01:37:27,119 --> 01:37:30,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the perfect response for someone like Bob.

1754
01:37:30,159 --> 01:37:32,000
I think it would be really I think it would

1755
01:37:32,000 --> 01:37:33,920
be really helpful. I think it would really give him

1756
01:37:33,920 --> 01:37:37,760
a lot of opportunities to experience things in a different

1757
01:37:37,840 --> 01:37:41,039
way versus the way that he perceives things, Like I

1758
01:37:41,119 --> 01:37:43,640
think it would be really helpful to have somebody with

1759
01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:46,000
him and going with him out in the world. I

1760
01:37:46,039 --> 01:37:48,039
think it would really I really don't think there'd be

1761
01:37:48,039 --> 01:37:51,239
a better treatment for Bob. And it's an opportunity to

1762
01:37:51,439 --> 01:37:56,920
get more in the real world social guidance, like with

1763
01:37:57,119 --> 01:37:58,920
people like Bob, Like I would do a lot of

1764
01:37:59,039 --> 01:38:03,439
like hey, actual, Like that's not the way that you

1765
01:38:03,520 --> 01:38:06,119
want to ask for that, Like, hey, actually, like this

1766
01:38:06,239 --> 01:38:07,960
is how it feels when you do that instead of that,

1767
01:38:08,199 --> 01:38:11,439
Like it allows for a lot more real world experiences

1768
01:38:12,960 --> 01:38:16,640
and where you can help guide them gently and correct

1769
01:38:16,720 --> 01:38:19,560
them as needed in terms of like the social skills

1770
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:22,439
stuff that he has trouble with. Like, I've had a

1771
01:38:22,479 --> 01:38:26,159
lot of conversations with people about boundaries in the work

1772
01:38:26,199 --> 01:38:27,800
that we've done, to the point that we had one

1773
01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:30,079
person we worked with who would just as kind of

1774
01:38:30,119 --> 01:38:32,600
a joke but not really would always say boundaries at

1775
01:38:32,680 --> 01:38:34,399
me because she knew I was gonna say it first.

1776
01:38:35,039 --> 01:38:36,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, no tricks.

1777
01:38:37,159 --> 01:38:40,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, let's take a break care and me back

1778
01:38:40,199 --> 01:38:43,079
with final thoughts. So who wants to go first?

1779
01:38:43,079 --> 01:38:45,640
Speaker 4: Talk about what about Bob? I'll go first.

1780
01:38:46,159 --> 01:38:50,920
Speaker 1: So I feel like in another life, I've watched this

1781
01:38:51,039 --> 01:38:54,119
movie a lot of times. I'm not really sure why,

1782
01:38:54,319 --> 01:38:58,680
but I watched it and realize that I know this

1783
01:38:58,800 --> 01:39:02,760
movie really well and did not realize that. So I

1784
01:39:02,960 --> 01:39:07,680
don't know that I'll watch it again, just because I

1785
01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:11,399
hadn't watched it in probably fifteen years. So I don't

1786
01:39:11,439 --> 01:39:13,479
know that I will seek it out, especially because Leo

1787
01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:17,199
is such an abomination of a provider. It's like uncomfortable

1788
01:39:17,239 --> 01:39:19,319
to sit through. So I don't think I would watched

1789
01:39:19,359 --> 01:39:23,399
the movie again. I did enjoy watching it. I do

1790
01:39:23,560 --> 01:39:27,840
love Bill Murray the end I can go next. I

1791
01:39:28,319 --> 01:39:31,159
bought this movie for seven ninety nine, so I probably

1792
01:39:31,199 --> 01:39:34,039
should watch it again because oh, I resisted that one

1793
01:39:34,159 --> 01:39:34,479
oh in this.

1794
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:35,479
Speaker 4: Motion picture.

1795
01:39:37,239 --> 01:39:39,479
Speaker 1: Because I have such fun memories as to get watching it.

1796
01:39:39,680 --> 01:39:42,600
This was definitely like a TBST and T movie, like

1797
01:39:42,680 --> 01:39:44,319
maybe that was on TV oh.

1798
01:39:44,199 --> 01:39:46,199
Speaker 2: All the time, all the time, And they definitely cut

1799
01:39:46,279 --> 01:39:46,840
some stuff out.

1800
01:39:47,479 --> 01:39:50,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh for sure, and so can I.

1801
01:39:50,399 --> 01:39:53,840
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'll really revisit this movie at

1802
01:39:53,880 --> 01:39:57,359
my leisure. Bill Murray does crack my shit up, and

1803
01:39:57,399 --> 01:39:59,319
there were parts of this movie that did crack me up.

1804
01:39:59,640 --> 01:40:01,720
Like I've told you guys many times, I want his

1805
01:40:01,880 --> 01:40:04,920
shirt that says, don't hassle me, I'm a local, so bad,

1806
01:40:05,600 --> 01:40:08,920
so bad in that obnoxious nineties day cloass colors.

1807
01:40:09,760 --> 01:40:12,640
Speaker 2: Brittany, I think somebody can probably make that happen for you.

1808
01:40:13,039 --> 01:40:16,359
Speaker 1: Please someone, please send it to me, please one of us.

1809
01:40:16,479 --> 01:40:21,199
But but I will say it's like a funny movie.

1810
01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:24,279
If it wasn't so close to what we did, maybe

1811
01:40:24,319 --> 01:40:27,319
I could enjoy it more. But it definitely is a

1812
01:40:27,439 --> 01:40:31,119
movie that's just trying to like be haha, and the

1813
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:35,960
the plot devices are just unfortunately so close to what

1814
01:40:36,000 --> 01:40:39,239
we actually do and have such like bad repercussions in

1815
01:40:39,319 --> 01:40:39,920
terms of like.

1816
01:40:40,119 --> 01:40:40,720
Speaker 4: The stuff we do.

1817
01:40:41,319 --> 01:40:43,000
Speaker 1: So I would say it's a funny movie. They are

1818
01:40:43,000 --> 01:40:44,920
parts of the genuinely made me laugh. I liked when

1819
01:40:44,960 --> 01:40:48,199
he was tied to the sailboat mast and he was like,

1820
01:40:48,399 --> 01:40:51,800
I'm sailing. Like, you're not sailing, dude, you are tied

1821
01:40:51,840 --> 01:40:55,239
to a boat. So Bill Murray is hilarious and I

1822
01:40:55,359 --> 01:40:57,359
do love Bill Murray. I have to fight my love

1823
01:40:57,399 --> 01:40:59,399
of him. You guy should watch Bill Murray's Christmas special

1824
01:40:59,439 --> 01:41:00,800
on at Flex if you're interested.

1825
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:01,600
Speaker 2: Oh that's wild.

1826
01:41:01,840 --> 01:41:04,720
Speaker 4: But I don't know if I'll revisit this movie anytime soon.

1827
01:41:06,079 --> 01:41:10,239
Speaker 1: Just and also Richard Dreyfus, like something about him bristles

1828
01:41:10,279 --> 01:41:12,239
mey same hate him.

1829
01:41:12,319 --> 01:41:13,600
Speaker 4: But that's all I have to say about that.

1830
01:41:13,840 --> 01:41:18,279
Speaker 2: You know, those two are only three years apart. Soccer Blue.

1831
01:41:19,720 --> 01:41:19,920
Speaker 4: Wow.

1832
01:41:20,359 --> 01:41:25,319
Speaker 2: Wow, three years apart? Really yep?

1833
01:41:26,199 --> 01:41:26,399
Speaker 5: Wow.

1834
01:41:26,600 --> 01:41:28,439
Speaker 4: I guess when you sua de vive it, you know,

1835
01:41:28,560 --> 01:41:29,079
keeps you young.

1836
01:41:29,640 --> 01:41:31,560
Speaker 2: I guess you don't or he does. I don't know,

1837
01:41:31,800 --> 01:41:37,600
but but so I love this movie.

1838
01:41:37,920 --> 01:41:40,000
Speaker 3: I don't know how much I'll watch it, but I

1839
01:41:40,079 --> 01:41:44,600
think it passed the test of a all time comedy.

1840
01:41:45,279 --> 01:41:48,600
That my wife watched it and was laughing and like chartling.

1841
01:41:49,479 --> 01:41:49,800
Speaker 1: She can.

1842
01:41:50,720 --> 01:41:52,319
Speaker 3: My wife has a great sense of humor, but she

1843
01:41:52,359 --> 01:41:54,640
can also be a harsh judge. I don't know She's

1844
01:41:54,640 --> 01:41:56,039
not like a person that sits there and goes haha

1845
01:41:56,960 --> 01:41:59,960
or this isn't funny. But for her do they say,

1846
01:42:00,119 --> 01:42:01,920
sit and enjoy a comedy. It's going to be a

1847
01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:05,159
good one. And this one past that test. This is

1848
01:42:05,199 --> 01:42:07,680
a good one. It's really funny. But I share the

1849
01:42:07,720 --> 01:42:11,720
same sentiment because I do what I do now because

1850
01:42:11,760 --> 01:42:12,760
it's represented so.

1851
01:42:13,159 --> 01:42:17,399
Speaker 2: Terribly, it bugs me a little bit.

1852
01:42:17,439 --> 01:42:20,039
Speaker 3: But at least it was done deliberately, as opposed to

1853
01:42:20,119 --> 01:42:23,760
like every other show where they include a therapist and like,

1854
01:42:23,960 --> 01:42:28,319
wouldn't it be wild if we had the therapists fall

1855
01:42:28,359 --> 01:42:29,760
in love with their client again?

1856
01:42:30,439 --> 01:42:33,039
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, like Leo is is also a cartoon.

1857
01:42:33,279 --> 01:42:33,920
Speaker 2: He's a cartoon.

1858
01:42:34,199 --> 01:42:36,640
Speaker 4: I mean, he makes it more it's a it's a

1859
01:42:36,680 --> 01:42:37,319
cartoon movie.

1860
01:42:37,399 --> 01:42:40,520
Speaker 2: He turns into Wiley movie. It's for real, like literally

1861
01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:43,399
goes to the Acme starre.

1862
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:45,600
Speaker 4: I mean her.

1863
01:42:46,960 --> 01:42:52,560
Speaker 2: Stop, I mean, yeah, nuts, and he starts monologuing. I mean,

1864
01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:55,159
it's just it's glorious in the way they did it.

1865
01:42:56,000 --> 01:42:59,720
Speaker 3: It's obvious, it's absurd, and that they're flipping the script

1866
01:42:59,800 --> 01:43:02,319
and the like Bob becomes the therapist is fucking hilarious.

1867
01:43:02,640 --> 01:43:05,119
So I mean, I'll probably watch the movie, and I

1868
01:43:05,199 --> 01:43:07,880
just it might be another fifteen years, but it is

1869
01:43:08,199 --> 01:43:12,560
worth the watch. It's worth the entertainment. Bill Murray is

1870
01:43:12,640 --> 01:43:16,039
a treasure, even though he was apparently a giant asshole

1871
01:43:16,079 --> 01:43:18,039
onness and Richard Dreyfus was mad at him.

1872
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:19,000
Speaker 2: For thirty four years.

1873
01:43:23,560 --> 01:43:27,239
Speaker 3: Wow, he did not forgive him until twenty twenty five

1874
01:43:28,720 --> 01:43:29,199
last year.

1875
01:43:29,520 --> 01:43:34,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, damn, holy fuck. He was upset. But I mean

1876
01:43:34,880 --> 01:43:37,920
also through an ashtray his face. Yeah, that's like, it's

1877
01:43:37,960 --> 01:43:40,880
a lot. It was screaming, like, if you are a good.

1878
01:43:40,720 --> 01:43:42,560
Speaker 4: Actor, you don't have to do that kind of shit.

1879
01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:43,680
You don't have to be a mania.

1880
01:43:43,920 --> 01:43:45,880
Speaker 1: Just act when they say to act, Yeah.

1881
01:43:46,680 --> 01:43:48,199
Speaker 4: You don't have to be berserker.

1882
01:43:48,520 --> 01:43:52,000
Speaker 3: Well that was off. That wasn't cameras rolling. That was

1883
01:43:52,119 --> 01:43:55,319
like on the set he was being like a bullying kid.

1884
01:43:56,760 --> 01:44:02,800
Speaker 1: Well, you know, we'll wrap up here as always if

1885
01:44:02,840 --> 01:44:05,720
you would like to find us. We're not super active

1886
01:44:05,760 --> 01:44:08,359
on social media anymore because all social media is starting

1887
01:44:08,399 --> 01:44:14,399
to be occupied by technocrat horrible monsters. So right now

1888
01:44:14,439 --> 01:44:19,600
we're really only still on Instagram and Facebook at Popcorn Psychology.

1889
01:44:19,920 --> 01:44:21,399
Speaker 4: You can always email us, though.

1890
01:44:21,520 --> 01:44:22,800
Speaker 2: It would be we would respond.

1891
01:44:22,560 --> 01:44:24,199
Speaker 1: To you at popropsychologygmail dot com.

1892
01:44:24,279 --> 01:44:25,439
Speaker 4: That's a direct way to get to us.

1893
01:44:25,920 --> 01:44:29,359
Speaker 1: If you want to patronize us in any way, you

1894
01:44:29,479 --> 01:44:32,000
can buy some of our merch ontee public. You can

1895
01:44:32,119 --> 01:44:35,520
also become a Patreon patron and you can get early

1896
01:44:35,600 --> 01:44:38,359
undated access to some of our episodes, and if you're

1897
01:44:38,359 --> 01:44:40,840
a fifty dollars or more patren you can pick the

1898
01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:43,399
subject of an episode so you can tell us to

1899
01:44:43,439 --> 01:44:45,960
do whatever your version of what about Bob is. If

1900
01:44:46,000 --> 01:44:48,399
you want to support us for free, you can always

1901
01:44:48,479 --> 01:44:51,319
leave us ratings and reviews wherever you listen to podcasts.

1902
01:44:51,439 --> 01:44:54,159
It is actually the best way for new listeners to

1903
01:44:54,279 --> 01:44:57,159
find us, so we do really actually appreciate that, and

1904
01:44:57,319 --> 01:45:00,720
we read your reviews and appreciate those two. So everybody,

1905
01:45:01,399 --> 01:45:03,560
don't work with a doctor Leo if you can help it,

1906
01:45:04,079 --> 01:45:05,760
and welcome to season nine

1907
01:45:06,479 --> 01:45:13,520
Speaker 2: Later Testicle head Bosom Beaver, good job.