1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. 3 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:11,679 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,439 now trying to use my experience as the brother of 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,399 a murder victim to help other victims of violent crime. 6 00:00:17,679 --> 00:00:20,280 I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 7 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:23,199 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,519 Murders Facebook group together with Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 4: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,560 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime. 13 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:39,079 Speaker 5: Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:42,079 --> 00:00:45,439 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Over Murderer. I'm Bill Thomas. Kristin Dilly, 15 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,280 my podcast partner is a way on assignment, but you'll 16 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,039 be back next time on mind Over Murder with lots 17 00:00:51,039 --> 00:00:54,320 of enthusiasm and new stories to tell. So it's just 18 00:00:54,399 --> 00:00:58,799 me today. Together with me is Lisa Ribakoff, who when 19 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,679 you get to know her, she's just amazing. Has an 20 00:01:01,679 --> 00:01:04,799 incredible background which I'll let her tell you about. Never 21 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,120 forget the fact. In addition to being an accomplished professional. 22 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,840 Lisa Ribercoff is also kind to children and small animals. 23 00:01:12,239 --> 00:01:16,400 You're gonna absolutely love her. Lisa Riberkoff, Welcome to Mind 24 00:01:16,439 --> 00:01:17,120 over Murder. 25 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 5: Hi Phil, thanks for having me, and I appreciate the 26 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,640 accolade pertaining to small children and animals. I love them both. 27 00:01:23,599 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 3: Lisa, tell people about yourself and don't be modest here. 28 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 5: Just let it fly, Okay, Hi everyone, Thank you again 29 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,480 Bill for having me. I am Lisa Ribertaff. I am 30 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,640 a New York State licensed private investigator as well as 31 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,840 an advanced trained polygraph examiner. I have been a licensed 32 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,079 private investigator now since I Gosh make me do math 33 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,680 on demand, I would say, the past twelve to thirteen years, 34 00:01:50,239 --> 00:01:53,200 and also a polygraph examiner for the same amount of time. 35 00:01:53,879 --> 00:01:56,560 I currently serve on the Board of Directors of the 36 00:01:56,599 --> 00:02:00,959 American Polygraph Association as the Seminar program at which means 37 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,959 I run a ten day seminar for pretty much our 38 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,599 membership as well as polygraph examiners that are interested in 39 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,520 attending our annual seminar. And I'm also currently on the 40 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,199 task force for the National Cold Case Task Force, so 41 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,199 I definitely have my hands full and I love everything 42 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:22,199 that I do because it's about victims centered advocacy and justice, 43 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,560 whether it's through investigative skills or using the polygraph as 44 00:02:25,599 --> 00:02:29,080 an investigative tool. And again, thank you for having me 45 00:02:29,159 --> 00:02:29,599 here today. 46 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,759 Speaker 3: Well, you've been all over the news lately because I'm 47 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:38,439 seeing you commenting about the recent polygraph examination on camera 48 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:43,319 no Less of Casey Anthony's parents. You didn't work that case, 49 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,039 but you did provide some media commentary, but a fairly 50 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:48,280 accurate representation. 51 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 5: Yes, that's correct. I did not directly work the Casey 52 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,280 Anthony case at all and or administered the polygraph exams 53 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,439 that were given to Casey's parents. What I decided to 54 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,400 do I was interact with my Twitter followers and kind 55 00:03:03,439 --> 00:03:06,479 of educate the general public. The idea came to me 56 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:08,960 the night before and I just said, you know what, 57 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,479 I'm going to watch it and then I'm going to 58 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,840 go ahead and provide my expert commentary as to what 59 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,879 exactly people are seeing, because just because you see something 60 00:03:17,879 --> 00:03:21,400 doesn't mean you actually understand what's going on. So I 61 00:03:21,439 --> 00:03:24,840 paid for Hulu plus TV seventy nine dollars for a 62 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:29,360 month because my cable package didn't have a and E 63 00:03:29,439 --> 00:03:30,960 as part of it, and I said, crap, how am 64 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,199 I going to do this? So I went online, created 65 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,680 an account, and I streamed it on my computer, so 66 00:03:35,719 --> 00:03:38,919 I had the documentary up on my laptop and then 67 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,639 I use a TV monitor as a computer, So I 68 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,759 was sitting there going back and forth live streaming and 69 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,120 typing as the whole thing was going on. And then 70 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,840 that took about two hours of my life that I'm 71 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,360 clearly not going to get back. But the feedback I 72 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,240 had gotten was incredible, right because it became educational experience 73 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,560 and people were seeing it in real time of what 74 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,840 exactly is going on. It was great because obviously increase 75 00:04:00,919 --> 00:04:03,479 my Twitter following, so because that's really what I'm using 76 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,120 to connect with everyone these days. And then the other 77 00:04:06,199 --> 00:04:09,159 side of it was people commenting, Okay, this was great, 78 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,280 when's the next one happening? And my only response was 79 00:04:12,439 --> 00:04:14,639 get someone to take a polygraph and have it either 80 00:04:14,719 --> 00:04:17,439 televised or put into a TV show and I'll do 81 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:20,360 the same thing. So until that happens, I guess I'm 82 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:21,839 not going to be sitting in front of Twitter for 83 00:04:21,879 --> 00:04:22,519 two hours. 84 00:04:22,959 --> 00:04:26,519 Speaker 3: So before we talk about the Long Island serial killer, 85 00:04:26,759 --> 00:04:31,319 Gilgo Beach four case. Let's tell people what your Twitter 86 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,680 handle is so they can follow you, because obviously there's 87 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,240 a lot to be learned from someone with your level 88 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:38,040 of expertise. 89 00:04:38,519 --> 00:04:40,879 Speaker 5: So my Twitter handle is very simple. It's just my 90 00:04:40,959 --> 00:04:42,920 first and last name, and I'll spell it for you 91 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,639 because many people screw it up. It's Lisa, Lisa, and 92 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,199 then my last name, ri Iba COOSF. 93 00:04:50,959 --> 00:04:54,199 Speaker 3: You've also been very involved. I've seen you on a 94 00:04:54,319 --> 00:05:01,120 number of different platforms, television, podcasting, live breaks from our 95 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:06,199 friend Joe Jackalone and others discussing the Long Island serial 96 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,480 killer slash gilg Beach four. Heaven forbid, we could come 97 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,680 up with one name that worked case. What's your involvement 98 00:05:14,759 --> 00:05:16,560 there on the Gilgo Beach four case. 99 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 5: My involvement with the case is that I'm not an 100 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,560 active investigator on their task force. I am not directly 101 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,800 involved with the investigation. My role has turned into being 102 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:32,120 a subject matter expert given that I am a private investigator. 103 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,160 I also live on Long Island, about twenty five minutes 104 00:05:35,199 --> 00:05:39,439 away from Gilgo Beach. So because I was raised in 105 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,560 the media towards when this investigation started and I followed 106 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,680 it closely, I've had just media outlets reach out to 107 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,360 me and say, Hey, can we have the commentary or 108 00:05:48,399 --> 00:05:51,160 can we jump on a zoom or a YouTube or 109 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,800 a podcast recording to break down the bail documents, talk 110 00:05:54,879 --> 00:05:57,959 about maybe the demographics of Long Island, what's going on 111 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,600 with the case, things like that. So I've got my 112 00:06:00,639 --> 00:06:03,800 hands on the pulse of what's going on over here, and. 113 00:06:03,759 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 2: You're a legacy. 114 00:06:05,079 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 3: I called your office the other day looking for you, 115 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,160 and I ended up talking to your dad briefly, who 116 00:06:10,199 --> 00:06:14,560 was unbelievably nice. Also, I'm calling saying I need to 117 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,079 talk to Lisa urgently and can you get a message 118 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,600 to her, And at the end of the call, I said, 119 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:21,480 may I ask who I'm speaking to. 120 00:06:21,519 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: And he said, oh, this is her dad. 121 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,879 Speaker 3: Your dad is also a private investigator and polygraph examiner. 122 00:06:28,439 --> 00:06:30,759 Speaker 5: Yes, my dad is both, And that's how I got 123 00:06:30,759 --> 00:06:35,399 into the business. I started off doing private investigation work 124 00:06:35,439 --> 00:06:38,560 as an office assistant, where kids in high school would 125 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,839 have normal upbringings and do sports and clubs and activities, 126 00:06:41,879 --> 00:06:44,600 and I'd be like, that's not fun. So I would 127 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,360 leave my local high school walk to his office was 128 00:06:47,399 --> 00:06:50,240 a few blocks away, stop and dunkin Donuts, next door, 129 00:06:50,319 --> 00:06:52,319 get my donut and my chocolate milk, and go up 130 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,160 to the office and I would ind on phone calls 131 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,480 or the surveillance agents would give in like they're billing 132 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,160 and their time sheets, and I would import it. That's 133 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,720 when I was sixteen, and I slowly moved my way 134 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,480 up the rankings into being an office assistant to being 135 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,680 a surveillance coordinator where we had agents in the fields 136 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,639 and I'd have to contact clients and scheduling or handle 137 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,480 investigations and then go out and take statements regards to 138 00:07:16,519 --> 00:07:19,759 witnesses or accidents or whatever we had going on. And 139 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,360 then it turned into a surveillance operative where I would 140 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,000 be in the field doing surveillances. But now we're at 141 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,040 the point where my dad and I are kind of 142 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,920 partners in the business. He still owns it, I still 143 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:33,240 follow the rules, and there's one day he's my dad, 144 00:07:33,279 --> 00:07:36,079 the next day he's my boss. So it's definitely creating 145 00:07:36,079 --> 00:07:39,920 an interesting dynamic. And family dinners, especially in public, are 146 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,000 fantastic because people overhear the conversation and they're like, I'm 147 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:45,399 going to stop eating. I want to listen to what 148 00:07:45,439 --> 00:07:45,959 they're talking. 149 00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: I can imagine and my. 150 00:07:47,759 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 5: Mom works in the business, my brother works in the business. 151 00:07:50,079 --> 00:07:53,639 So it's great to see the transition of me growing 152 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,680 up where even in elementary school kids were like, Oh, 153 00:07:56,759 --> 00:07:58,879 my dad's a doctor, my mom's a lawyer, or my 154 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,199 dad's a policeman, and I'm I'm like, my dad's a spy. 155 00:08:01,319 --> 00:08:05,000 My dad's James Bond. I'd always had that cool thought 156 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,839 of like an undercover spy, never like KGB or anything. 157 00:08:07,879 --> 00:08:09,720 I didn't go that far, but I was just like 158 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,519 dad's got like gizmos and gadgets and stuff. And so 159 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,480 to be able to be raised in the business, grow 160 00:08:15,639 --> 00:08:17,920 in the business as well as helped grow the business 161 00:08:17,959 --> 00:08:19,680 to where we are now has been such a great 162 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,720 experience and it's definitely made my dad an eye. As 163 00:08:22,759 --> 00:08:23,879 close as we are now. 164 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 3: It's not a normal upbringing, though not by a long shot. 165 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,279 Your life, even as a teenager, sounds completely different from 166 00:08:31,319 --> 00:08:32,600 most of the rest of us. 167 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,639 Speaker 5: Yeah, it definitely was very different. It made it a 168 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,679 lot more interesting because, especially like growing up, I had 169 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,039 my own dating life in college and high school or 170 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,480 whatever it was for me, I always went into it 171 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:46,799 with a radar or like the light beam. That was 172 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:48,600 like figuring out who was good to date and who 173 00:08:48,639 --> 00:08:51,039 was bad to date, and then thinking, Okay, I'm in college. 174 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,120 Do I need to run a background check on this guy? 175 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,519 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. 176 00:08:56,919 --> 00:08:59,399 Speaker 5: It definitely added some fun to the mix. I guess 177 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,919 you can say that it all works out in the end, 178 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,440 and I'm very happy now and I can only go 179 00:09:04,519 --> 00:09:05,639 up from there. Pretty much. 180 00:09:06,039 --> 00:09:09,879 Speaker 3: We've had a situation developed in the Colonial Parkway murders 181 00:09:10,279 --> 00:09:14,879 that has resulted in our listeners coming forward with tons 182 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,120 of questions about one of your many specialties, which is 183 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:24,360 being a polygraphic examiner. How polygraphic examinations work. I need 184 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,960 to tee this up a little bit with a bit 185 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,120 of background about why so many people who are supporters 186 00:09:31,279 --> 00:09:34,960 of mind over murder and those families, including mine, that 187 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,159 were impacted by the Colonial Parkway murders, why they're asking 188 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:42,120 so many questions. It's come out in the last two 189 00:09:42,159 --> 00:09:45,879 weeks since the FBI and the Virginia State Police in 190 00:09:45,919 --> 00:09:50,159 the Hampton, Virginia Police Department announced that they had identified 191 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:55,000 a suspect, Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior, who is deceased. He 192 00:09:55,039 --> 00:09:59,320 died in twenty seventeen, as the offender responsible for the 193 00:09:59,399 --> 00:10:02,759 murder of Robin Edwards and David Knobling, who were part 194 00:10:02,759 --> 00:10:06,080 of the Colonial Parkway murders. They were killed in nineteen 195 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,440 eighty seven. And then another case which we were less 196 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,600 familiar with because it wasn't part of the Colonial Parkway murders, 197 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,039 and that was the murder of a lovely young woman 198 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:19,399 named Teresa Howell in nineteen eighty nine, who was murdered 199 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,080 by herself after likely meeting the offender in a bar 200 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,600 called the Zodiac Club in Hampton, Virginia. 201 00:10:26,159 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 2: What wasn't said was that. 202 00:10:28,279 --> 00:10:33,759 Speaker 3: Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior was also suspect number one in 203 00:10:34,159 --> 00:10:37,759 the disappearance and likely murder of Keith Call and Cassandra 204 00:10:37,879 --> 00:10:41,399 Haley in nineteen eighty eight as part of the Colonial 205 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,120 Parkway murders. Now it's necessary to do a little bit 206 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,360 of a recap here. The FBI received information after the 207 00:10:49,399 --> 00:10:52,960 disappearance of Keith Call and Cassandra Haley and the discovery 208 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:57,080 of Keith's Toyota Celica on the Colonial Parkway about a 209 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,200 mile or so from where my sister Kathy Tom and 210 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,879 her girlfriend Rebeccaudowski had been found murdered a year and 211 00:11:03,919 --> 00:11:07,240 a half prior. Of course, In the meantime, then a 212 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,039 second couple, the aforementioned Robin Edwards and David Nobling, had 213 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,840 also been murdered, not on the Colonial Parkway, but about 214 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:16,080 a half an hour away at this place called the 215 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,360 Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge. The FBI knew they had a problem. 216 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,399 They had two couples, one gay, one straight, who'd been 217 00:11:23,399 --> 00:11:26,879 brutally murdered, and now they had a missing couple and 218 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,559 the car found on the Colonial Parkway just down the 219 00:11:30,639 --> 00:11:33,600 road from where the first incident took place, and the 220 00:11:33,639 --> 00:11:36,879 FBI immediately recognized they had a problem. They did a 221 00:11:36,919 --> 00:11:39,639 full court press, which the FBI is actually quite good at. 222 00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:43,440 They rented out every room in a hotel just off 223 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,559 the Colonial Parkway, and they brought in a number of 224 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,960 different agents and support staff. And one of the things 225 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,159 that emerged almost immediately was that a number of people 226 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,799 on the Colonial Parkway. Remember this is pre cell phone, 227 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,200 pre internet, so they're putting out an APB looking for information, 228 00:12:01,399 --> 00:12:04,840 but a number of people, including couples, reported that this 229 00:12:05,159 --> 00:12:09,960 very distinctive truck was cruising the Colonial Parkway that evening 230 00:12:10,039 --> 00:12:13,080 that Keith and Sandy went missing, and they described the truck. 231 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,600 It was dark blue or dark green riding on the doors, 232 00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:20,679 and a very elaborate mechanism on the back that kind 233 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,960 of would look like a tow truck to my eye, 234 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:27,000 but was actually the tongs that are used to pull 235 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,200 crab pots and oyster from the ocean. And this, of 236 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,159 course is a big fishing crabbing an oystering area, so 237 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,919 they knew they were looking for this truck. It kept 238 00:12:38,919 --> 00:12:41,519 coming up in reports that this truck had been seen 239 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,559 cruising all these little half moon pulloffs along the Colonial Parkway. 240 00:12:46,039 --> 00:12:49,080 The agents who are communicating by radio no cell phones 241 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,200 back then, are discussing this a number of different times 242 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,320 as more information comes in. During this time, a non agent, 243 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,320 the guy that maintained the radios, had heard all of 244 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,279 the agents discussing this very distinctive vehicle, which is truly 245 00:13:04,279 --> 00:13:07,000 a one of a kind, and he radioed in a 246 00:13:07,039 --> 00:13:10,200 couple of days after the investigation had begun and said, guys, 247 00:13:10,399 --> 00:13:14,759 I'm next to that truck on the highway. He described 248 00:13:14,879 --> 00:13:17,320 the truck and they said that's the one. And now 249 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,120 he gets the license plate, which is obviously incredibly helpful. 250 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,840 It was a vanity plate and it said E m 251 00:13:25,399 --> 00:13:29,600 raw eat them. Raw, which is a sexually suggestive joke, 252 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,759 I would say, as well as an oyster reference, which 253 00:13:32,799 --> 00:13:35,240 is what this truck was set up to do. Now 254 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,960 the FBI has the license plate, so they know where 255 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,440 to find this guy. Four days after Keith and Sandy 256 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,919 went missing on the Colonial Parkway, two agents rolled up 257 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,720 on this man's home, which is out in Lancaster, Virginia, 258 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,960 a couple of hours away from the site where the 259 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,240 disappearance had taken place. The agents were immediately concerned because 260 00:13:57,279 --> 00:14:00,000 they felt this man was engaged in very suspicious behavior. 261 00:14:00,279 --> 00:14:04,879 He's washing out his truck and repainting the surfaces inside 262 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,600 the cab of the truck. And this is a real 263 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,120 beater work truck. This isn't a fancy truck. They are 264 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,960 immediately suspicious that this guy's up to something he shouldn't be. 265 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,480 They spoke to him, interviewed him, and then they went 266 00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:22,559 away and immediately got a search warrant for his property. 267 00:14:22,679 --> 00:14:25,200 And they went back with a search warrant and searched. 268 00:14:25,279 --> 00:14:30,360 Sometimes we hear trailer, other times small modest house. I 269 00:14:30,399 --> 00:14:33,159 think we're talking about the same structure without a doubt 270 00:14:33,279 --> 00:14:35,919 that he shared with his brother. They knew they were 271 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,960 looking for certain things, and as part of that search 272 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:44,480 warrant they discovered guns, handcuffs, and extensive collection of pornography. 273 00:14:44,679 --> 00:14:48,039 And of course we've had profilers on mindover murder who 274 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,639 were just saying, these are all red flags for the 275 00:14:51,799 --> 00:14:54,559 kind of person you'd be looking for in a murder 276 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,679 series like the Colonial Parkway murders. At some point shortly thereafter, 277 00:14:58,919 --> 00:15:03,000 they bring this man for a polygraph examination, and we're 278 00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:06,279 told there may have been two polygraphic examinations for this 279 00:15:06,399 --> 00:15:10,320 man and a second man who's not identified, So I'm 280 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,279 not sure who that is. Could be the brother, could 281 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,159 be someone else. But the polygraph examiner, who's one of 282 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,000 the top people at the FBI, who has done all 283 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,600 the top spy cases. There were a bunch of spy 284 00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:23,799 cases that broke back in the eighties and nineties at 285 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,480 the Norfolk FBI Field office because of the big military 286 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,799 presence down there. They busted a number of spies. This 287 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,360 same polygraphic examiner gave the tests to those individuals. So 288 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,360 this gentleman was very highly regarded. But here's where we 289 00:15:38,399 --> 00:15:40,399 get tripped up, and this is where you come in, Lisa. 290 00:15:40,759 --> 00:15:44,879 As we understand it, they gave a test or tests 291 00:15:45,159 --> 00:15:49,000 to Ellen Wade Wilmer, Senior and another unnamed man, and 292 00:15:49,559 --> 00:15:53,679 they passed the first examination. Now we're hearing they may 293 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:59,279 have actually taken a second examination and the results were inconclusive. Regardless, 294 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:04,000 they missed these men as suspects in the disappearance of 295 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:10,600 Keith Collin Cassandra Haley, despite all of this extensive circumstantial evidence. Further, 296 00:16:10,879 --> 00:16:14,480 as they continued to look at incidents on the Colonial Parkway, 297 00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:18,039 couples began coming forward and they reported that they had 298 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:23,240 been attacked basically by this same gentleman driving this same truck, 299 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,279 pulling them over, flashing his lights, demanding driver's licenses in 300 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,519 a highly aggressive way, and trying to get couples to 301 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,679 roll their windows down, and several couples actually feared for 302 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,879 their lives. One couple was so terrified by this guy 303 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,519 that they tried to drive away at a high rate 304 00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:44,639 of speed. He tried to block them with this same truck. 305 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,360 They turned around and sped out of one of these 306 00:16:47,399 --> 00:16:49,639 half moon pull offs at a high rate of speed, 307 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,879 and they were able to lose him. When they finally 308 00:16:51,919 --> 00:16:55,399 got to Route seventeen, which is a nearby major road, 309 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,440 there are all these scary incidents involving this man. When 310 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,320 we look back, and I know hindsight's twenty twenty and 311 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,799 all that, I think to myself, why did they let 312 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:07,839 this man go? But the answer to date seems to 313 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:10,599 be we gave them polygraph exam and at least he 314 00:17:10,759 --> 00:17:13,640 passed the first one, or they passed the first one. 315 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,599 So walk us through polygraphic examinations if you would. And 316 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,400 we're civilians here and I know this is your area 317 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,279 of expertise. Educate us a little bit, if you will, Lisa, 318 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,279 on how polygraph examinations work. 319 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:31,079 Speaker 5: So polygraph exams have been around for over one hundred years. 320 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,880 They started off as the analog instrument, which is typically 321 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,519 what everyone sees in TVs or movies where you have 322 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,039 the contraption or the machine on the desk and you 323 00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:42,160 see the paper rolling out the side, and you see 324 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,000 the needles moving up and down. Through the course of 325 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,880 the years, we have now transitioned from using analog to digital. 326 00:17:49,079 --> 00:17:52,480 And what digital is that it operates off a laptop computer. 327 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,160 The instrument is pretty much about maybe half the size 328 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,160 of a tissue box, is just a little bit thinner, 329 00:17:58,519 --> 00:18:01,079 has the different connector reports into it, and those are 330 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,000 the different factors that we go ahead and measure to 331 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,039 which the data is then transmitted onto a laptop, and 332 00:18:07,319 --> 00:18:09,400 what we use to see on the pen and paper 333 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,599 with the needles moving is now what we observe on 334 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,160 the actual computer. The benefits of also transitioning to digital 335 00:18:15,599 --> 00:18:18,319 is the fact that we have scoring algorithms and scoring 336 00:18:18,519 --> 00:18:21,960 software built into the technology that we're using pertaining to 337 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,880 the programs that we're using to acquire the data, and 338 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,680 by data, the physiological reactions that the person provides in 339 00:18:28,759 --> 00:18:31,440 response to the question. So the person that's taking the 340 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,359 test is going to be attached to pneumographs once it's 341 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:36,440 on their chest and once it's on their stomach to 342 00:18:36,519 --> 00:18:39,839 measure two different sources of breathing, as some people breathe 343 00:18:39,839 --> 00:18:41,799 from their stomach and some people breathe from their chest, 344 00:18:41,839 --> 00:18:44,359 and some people breathe from both, so we acquire breathing 345 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,400 respirations from that. They also are wearing a blood pressure 346 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,000 cuff in which we're monitoring the heart rate and blood 347 00:18:50,039 --> 00:18:52,680 flow with regards to the questions that are being asked. 348 00:18:52,839 --> 00:18:55,119 And then they're also going to be wearing two plates 349 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,119 on their fingers which measure the galvanic skin reactions, which 350 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,799 is ultimately Swickland respond to the questions that are being 351 00:19:01,839 --> 00:19:04,559 asked on the exam. Because on the exam we don't 352 00:19:04,599 --> 00:19:08,160 just ask relevant questions, meaning the questions about what the 353 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,680 topic is that the reason you're taking the exam. We're 354 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,240 also asking you other types of questions to gear your 355 00:19:14,279 --> 00:19:17,720 reactions to those questions as well in comparison to the 356 00:19:17,759 --> 00:19:18,720 relevant questions. 357 00:19:19,319 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 3: How does that tie into an investigation? For example, how 358 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:29,119 are polygraph examinations and examiners tying into working with their 359 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:30,720 investigative partners. 360 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 5: The polygraph is an investigative tool, and that's what I've 361 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,759 always said. It's not the be all, it's not the 362 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,079 end all. It is there to support your investigation and 363 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,160 to support the findings that you have come across. There 364 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,640 is a misconception that the polygraph is there to catch 365 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,319 the guilty. I am very much a firm believer that 366 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,119 the polygraph is there to clear the innocent. People have 367 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,440 to go ahead and have a methodology to show that 368 00:19:53,519 --> 00:19:56,759 what they're saying is being truthful. For example, it's the 369 00:19:56,799 --> 00:19:59,440 fact that an individual could be accused of murder. They 370 00:19:59,519 --> 00:20:01,160 want to take the test to go ahead and show 371 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,640 that data back commit the murder. Same thing with regards 372 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,119 to effect, and even if something as simple as proving 373 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,799 infidelity in a marriage or a relationship, to show that 374 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,680 infidelity didn't occur. So polygraphs can be issued when they 375 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,240 are event based and you're testing the situation. You can't 376 00:20:16,279 --> 00:20:19,599 test opinions, you can't test thoughts, you can't test emotions 377 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,240 just for example, that your opinions and your emotions change. 378 00:20:23,559 --> 00:20:26,920 Whereas polygraphs, when you're testing events, you're testing with the 379 00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:29,880 idea of did something happen or did something not happen? 380 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,559 And that's what we're going ahead and using it as 381 00:20:32,599 --> 00:20:35,160 an investigative tool to support the investigation. 382 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,279 Speaker 3: How reliable is polygraph testing. 383 00:20:39,519 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 5: The exam reliability is constantly being researched by the researchers 384 00:20:44,279 --> 00:20:49,160 in our industry. It's been yielding pertaining to the metadata 385 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,480 analysis to getting a ninety to a ninety three percent accuracy. 386 00:20:54,079 --> 00:20:56,799 Most people think that or they question why is it 387 00:20:56,799 --> 00:20:59,480 not one hundred percent accurate? And I tell everyone bluntly, 388 00:20:59,519 --> 00:21:02,200 even when pepill call my office to ask about the accuracy, 389 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,680 is said, nothing in life is one hundred percent except 390 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,200 the fact that you're born, you die, and you have 391 00:21:07,279 --> 00:21:11,119 to pay taxes. That's it. Because of scientific studies and 392 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,799 different variables that come into play, we can go ahead 393 00:21:13,799 --> 00:21:16,039 and we can say between like an eighty eight to 394 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,279 ninety three percent accuracy pertaining to the exam. 395 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,319 Speaker 3: So you can't stake your life on it, that's for sure. 396 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 5: You can't save your life, which is why it's an 397 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,400 investigative tool. It is subjective to the point of it 398 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,799 will provide you the necessary resources and information to take 399 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,680 your investigation further pertaining to keeping it open or keeping 400 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,119 it closed. But there is value and there is wait 401 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,599 where it does get administered, such as in Rockville conviction 402 00:21:42,759 --> 00:21:45,119 cases where someone can file a four to forty motion 403 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,200 to vacate the conviction. It has been used plenty of 404 00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:51,759 times to go ahead and release someone from a criminal institution, 405 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,359 jail or prison wherever they are for a prod that 406 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:55,160 they did not commit. 407 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 3: So do you feel I know you weren't a polygraphic 408 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,759 examiner back in the eighties. That was a long time ago. 409 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:04,519 Speaker 5: I was barely born, sweetheart. 410 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 3: Do you feel that polygraphic examinations back then? This would 411 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,119 have been what nineteen eighty eight. 412 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 2: So that's thirty thirty six, six. 413 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 3: Years ago coming up actually because the exam was a 414 00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:21,799 little later in the year. As we understand it, what's 415 00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:25,880 your sense of the reliability of polygraphic examinations in a 416 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,960 pre digital environment back in the eighties. 417 00:22:29,079 --> 00:22:32,599 Speaker 5: I'd say, for me, it comes down to not necessarily 418 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,599 the technology. It comes down more to the training of 419 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,200 the examiner and the systems that are in place during 420 00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:42,720 not only just the pre test interview, but it was 421 00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:46,240 the chart collection. Because when you're dealing with technology, you 422 00:22:46,319 --> 00:22:48,200 have to take a look at a couple of different things. 423 00:22:48,319 --> 00:22:53,160 Number one, that analogue instrument measures less components than we 424 00:22:53,279 --> 00:22:56,680 do now, an increased amount of data that we can 425 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,680 acquire now versus then number two, the cleanliness of the charts. 426 00:23:01,839 --> 00:23:04,079 And what I mean by that is when you're dealing 427 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,839 with the pen and paper that's only one copy. If 428 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,319 you mess that up, you spill coffee on it, you 429 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,400 spill water, whatever it is, it tears, you lose your 430 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,559 data versus now on the digital side, it gets saved 431 00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:18,960 into a computer. I can print out one hundred and 432 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,359 fifty copies of something if I wanted, and the data 433 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,279 doesn't change. Also, you have the scoring methodologies that are 434 00:23:25,279 --> 00:23:29,400 built into the software. Whereas previously there was no accountability 435 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,240 for the examiner's ruling other than that one chart that 436 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,079 was printed and torn off the machine given to another 437 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,119 examiner by hand. Now again we have the scoring where 438 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,279 we have a computerized, independent, unbiased opportunity for a scoring 439 00:23:44,319 --> 00:23:46,960 decision to be rendered by the computer. But we also 440 00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:49,839 have the opportunity for me to save the charts, download 441 00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:52,799 them and email them to another examiner anywhere in the 442 00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:55,680 world that's a qualified examiner to run their own scoring decision, 443 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:56,640 and so so. 444 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,559 Speaker 3: He or she can help you by offering a second opinion, 445 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:03,599 a third opinion. And do you feel that wasn't really 446 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,039 available using this earlier technology. 447 00:24:06,519 --> 00:24:08,599 Speaker 5: I don't know what the department protocols would have been, 448 00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:11,720 but I know where I've run at aalog tests just 449 00:24:11,799 --> 00:24:14,880 for demonstration purposes, and what the charts look like. I'd 450 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,960 have to rip it off the instrument, fold it up 451 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,839 a certain way, or roll it up a certain way 452 00:24:19,079 --> 00:24:21,759 physically handed to someone like I'm running the four x 453 00:24:21,839 --> 00:24:24,279 four in the Olympics, I'm on the track, it looks 454 00:24:24,319 --> 00:24:26,680 like a baton. Where in teror comes into play of 455 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,680 the actual physical data and the chart because again that's 456 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,559 the only copy that you have. So I think it's 457 00:24:32,599 --> 00:24:36,079 also the transition the wear and tear, whether they used heat, 458 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,960 whether they used ink. That also comes into a factor. 459 00:24:39,599 --> 00:24:42,519 So there are a lot of different de terminalities pertaining 460 00:24:42,559 --> 00:24:46,279 to not necessarily the accuracy of the exam, but my 461 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,480 concern is pertaining to the control of the data and 462 00:24:49,519 --> 00:24:52,759 the transmission of the actual data itself from person to 463 00:24:52,799 --> 00:24:54,240 person or case file to case file. 464 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,799 Speaker 3: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 465 00:24:58,079 --> 00:25:06,279 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 466 00:25:06,319 --> 00:25:11,359 mindover Murder. Help us out, by the way, Lisa, most 467 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,720 of us our experience with live detection or proper name 468 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,440 polygraphic examinations is from film and TV. As you mentioned, 469 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,519 when I watch one of those tests being administered in 470 00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:27,519 a film or a television show, the examiner marks what 471 00:25:27,599 --> 00:25:31,680 looks like a paper roll, sometimes with a pen or 472 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,559 writing implement. What is he or she doing when they 473 00:25:35,559 --> 00:25:38,920 are making these marks for. 474 00:25:39,079 --> 00:25:42,079 Speaker 5: What you're seeing is for as an exam for demonstration 475 00:25:42,279 --> 00:25:45,720 and or media entertainment purposes. What they could be doing 476 00:25:45,839 --> 00:25:47,960 is they could be marking plus or minus is if 477 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,119 they passed the question, or they could be doing chart markings, 478 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,279 scoring identifying possible. Maybe if someone took a deep breath, 479 00:25:55,279 --> 00:25:58,400 are they sneezed or they cough, because all those body movements, 480 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,960 even though they're automatic, could affect the examine effect the 481 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,119 chart readings. They just want to notate any abnormalities that 482 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,519 could be showing up in the chart. They could also 483 00:26:06,519 --> 00:26:09,880 be going ahead and just taking notes maybe movement, body language, 484 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,440 things like that, or even going ahead and importing. The 485 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,039 plus or minus could be plus meaning they answered yes 486 00:26:17,079 --> 00:26:19,920 to the question, or the minus could be no. So 487 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,400 unless I actually see what's going on, and I can 488 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,519 actually see what's happening, I really can't speak to it. 489 00:26:24,559 --> 00:26:26,599 But those are all just possible hypotheticals that could be 490 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:27,799 taking place right. 491 00:26:29,039 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 3: Neither one of us is a psychologist or a psychiatrist. 492 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,319 But yes, I have read a number of different times 493 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,079 and many of our listeners have asked this question. Is 494 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:47,200 it true in the literature that psychopaths or sociopaths can 495 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,720 beat a polygraph. 496 00:26:49,799 --> 00:26:52,559 Speaker 5: There's a couple of different angles on this one. You're 497 00:26:52,599 --> 00:26:57,960 dealing with the psychology of an individual. We don't know 498 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,400 if they're a psychopath per se or have psychiatric issues 499 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,480 until we actually meet with the person and we do 500 00:27:04,519 --> 00:27:07,519 our pretest interview and we ask about medications, medical of 501 00:27:07,599 --> 00:27:09,599 conditions and clear them just to make sure that they 502 00:27:09,599 --> 00:27:12,119 are eligible to take the exam, and that takes place 503 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,640 at the time of the test. It also comes down 504 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,480 to the training of the examiner to make sure that 505 00:27:16,519 --> 00:27:18,839 they ask the right questions to clear the individual to 506 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:22,480 take an exam. So does full on the examiner training, 507 00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:26,240 and it also depends upon the scope of the questions 508 00:27:26,279 --> 00:27:30,279 that are being asked. Can they take a test? Yes, 509 00:27:30,519 --> 00:27:33,119 anyone is eligible to take an exam as long as 510 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,960 they fit the criteria of being eligible to take the exam. 511 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,599 As long as they meet the criteria to go ahead 512 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,559 and take the test, that's not an issue at all, 513 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,839 meaning that they can't have illegal drugs or alcohol in 514 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,200 their system and that they add are adequately rested. 515 00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 3: Now, another thing I've read is that by ingesting drugs 516 00:27:51,519 --> 00:27:56,039 or alcohol, it might be possible to throw off a 517 00:27:56,079 --> 00:27:57,759 polygmath examination. 518 00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 2: Is that also true? 519 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 5: Yes, people can attempt to go ahead and do that. 520 00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:05,799 It is referred to as a chemical countermeasure, And by countermeasure, 521 00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:08,200 I mean trying to beat the test. You're trying to 522 00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:12,240 counter affect the actual physiological data that comes from your 523 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,200 body to the exam. And I always tell everyone you 524 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:16,960 would not try and beat the test if you knew 525 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,839 you were going to pass, which is why during the 526 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,160 protest interview we discuss medications. Where an individual tells me 527 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,119 they're not on any medications, they have no medical conditions. 528 00:28:27,519 --> 00:28:29,720 But I start to run the exam and the chart 529 00:28:29,759 --> 00:28:33,200 collection process, and I see that they're not reacting in 530 00:28:33,279 --> 00:28:36,519 the normal fashion as I'll put it, that I can 531 00:28:36,519 --> 00:28:39,799 go ahead and suspect that there possibly is something chemical 532 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,240 in their system, to which I will then address it 533 00:28:42,279 --> 00:28:45,039 with them and say, these are the chart findings, and 534 00:28:45,079 --> 00:28:47,359 I'll even sometimes show them in the chart. This is 535 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,160 what a normal chart looks like. This is what your 536 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,920 chart looks like. What reason or what factor do you 537 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,720 have for this looking the way that it does? 538 00:28:54,599 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 2: Now? 539 00:28:54,759 --> 00:28:59,119 Speaker 3: Would you be hesitant if you knew, and obviously hindsight 540 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,400 is twenty twenty, we're looking back at this case, which 541 00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:06,799 now stretches back for thirty seven years. Would you be 542 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,079 more hesitant or cautious if you became aware of the 543 00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:14,599 fact that an individual you were giving a polygraph examination 544 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,400 too had taken previous polygraph examinations that were inconclusive. 545 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,799 Speaker 5: I've had that before, where examinees have taken exams with 546 00:29:25,839 --> 00:29:29,400 other examiners and they have been founded or deceptive or inconclusive. 547 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,519 And for me, what I like to do is leave 548 00:29:32,599 --> 00:29:35,599 that to the side. Because I wasn't there in the room. 549 00:29:35,839 --> 00:29:38,119 I wasn't there for the pretest interview. I don't know 550 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,279 the questions that were asked. I don't know what type 551 00:29:40,319 --> 00:29:43,440 of format that was used, because there are different types 552 00:29:43,519 --> 00:29:46,960 of polygraph formats that we use to collect data, and 553 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,920 it also depends upon the testable issue and the format 554 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,559 that the examiner chooses to go with. I like to 555 00:29:52,559 --> 00:29:56,400 go ahead and leave any predetermined dispositions that the examinee 556 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,200 may have because of another examiner to the side, and 557 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,880 then I will go out head and run my own 558 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,720 exam for start to finish on the basis of what 559 00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:06,680 information is provided to me at the time of the appointment. 560 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 3: Now I know again I'm mixing in our twenty twenty 561 00:30:12,279 --> 00:30:16,880 four knowledge of this suspect. We know he is a 562 00:30:17,079 --> 00:30:23,160 confirmed serial killer. This is Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior. He's 563 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,839 been linked via DNA by the Virginia State Police. The 564 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,680 FBI and the Hampton, Virginia Police Department to homicides of 565 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,279 at least three people, the couple that I mentioned, Robin 566 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,319 Edwards and David Nappling. Now he's been linked via DNA 567 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:43,039 to Teresa Howell, who's murdered in nineteen eighty nine, about 568 00:30:43,039 --> 00:30:46,720 two years after the murder of Robin Edwards and David Noppling, 569 00:30:46,759 --> 00:30:50,720 and about a year after the disappearance of Keith Call 570 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,839 and Cassandra Haley. Would you approach that individual differently if 571 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,160 you knew that he was a serial killer and that 572 00:31:01,319 --> 00:31:06,440 was confirmed. Obviously, we can't combine our knowledge from where 573 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,759 we were in the eighties when this man was an 574 00:31:09,759 --> 00:31:13,200 active serial killer and perhaps extending well past that point 575 00:31:13,279 --> 00:31:15,720 and what we know about him now. But if you 576 00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:19,240 knew someone was a serial killer, would you approach the 577 00:31:19,359 --> 00:31:20,640 examine a different way? 578 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,279 Speaker 5: I would approach it in terms of just like anyone 579 00:31:24,279 --> 00:31:26,720 else sitting across the table, because I don't want to 580 00:31:26,759 --> 00:31:29,160 go in and let him know what my cards are. 581 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,160 I want to give him an opportunity. Again, like I mentioned, 582 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,880 the polygraph is there to clear the innocent. I'm going 583 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,599 to go ahead and give him the same lecture. You know, 584 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,119 what everyone's saying that this is what you are. I 585 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,279 want to go ahead and confirm that you're not, because 586 00:31:42,319 --> 00:31:44,279 I want to give him the opportunity to be comfortable 587 00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:46,839 with me, to have a conversation and have a dialogue, 588 00:31:47,119 --> 00:31:50,000 possibly give me case information that the general public doesn't 589 00:31:50,039 --> 00:31:52,680 have because he slips up in a conversation. So if 590 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,680 I can go ahead and establish rapport with him and 591 00:31:54,799 --> 00:31:57,720 advocate in that meeting to what he thinks is me 592 00:31:57,799 --> 00:32:00,279 being on his side and part of his defense team 593 00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:03,079 versus working for prosecution, I want to go ahead and 594 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,359 level the playing fields and get them comfortable to even 595 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,720 get him to consent to take the test, because if 596 00:32:07,759 --> 00:32:10,000 I can set that report, get him to consent to 597 00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:12,759 take the test, and if he fails, it's just further 598 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,839 proof using the polygraph as an investigative tool, that he 599 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,480 is guilty and he is responsible for what he's being 600 00:32:18,519 --> 00:32:19,000 accused of. 601 00:32:20,039 --> 00:32:24,119 Speaker 3: And if he passes the test or it's inconclusive, that's 602 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,000 an investigative tool and an investigative result as well. 603 00:32:28,079 --> 00:32:28,599 Speaker 2: Is that fair? 604 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,039 Speaker 5: So the investigative result of inconclusive means that I can't 605 00:32:33,079 --> 00:32:36,160 render an opinion with regards to a polygraph. You're either 606 00:32:36,279 --> 00:32:39,319 passing or failing. It's like a pregnancy test. You're either pregnant, 607 00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:40,920 you're not pregnant. There's no such thing as a little 608 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,480 bit of pregnant. There's no such thing a whole lot. 609 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,599 So you have to just it's just it's one of 610 00:32:45,599 --> 00:32:47,920 the most common references that I can use with regards 611 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,559 to explaining fast and fills. 612 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 3: Sorry, no, it's a good one. 613 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 5: It's more so in terms of the fact of the 614 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,759 inconclusive being the gray area where you're not all the 615 00:32:58,759 --> 00:33:00,119 way to the left, you're not all the way to 616 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,079 the right. You fall in between the threshold of what 617 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,200 I need. So if I need let's say a plus 618 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,240 three or higher to pass, or a minus three or 619 00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:11,880 lower to fail, and you come in at a zero 620 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,400 positive want or positive two or negative one or negative two, 621 00:33:15,559 --> 00:33:18,920 that's your inconclusive, your gray area. So I can't go 622 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,640 ahead and have enough data to support a past or 623 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,640 a fail. So I rule it as a no opinion, 624 00:33:24,119 --> 00:33:26,240 and at that point I will go ahead and offer 625 00:33:26,279 --> 00:33:29,160 the examine a retest to say, listen, I'm not going 626 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:30,759 to call you a liar, and I'm not going to 627 00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:33,160 call you as someone as being truthful or being honest 628 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,200 or deceptive. I can't say it because I don't have 629 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,000 the data to support it. So I want to give 630 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,759 you the benefit of the doubt. I want you to 631 00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:41,119 go home, get a good night rest, have breakfast in 632 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:42,920 the morning, or make sure you eat during the day. 633 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,559 And let's just go ahead and try this again. And 634 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,119 at that point I'll speak with either the law enforcement 635 00:33:48,119 --> 00:33:51,240 agency or I'll speak with the therapist or whoever i'm 636 00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:54,599 working with that retains my services, and I'll say, listen, 637 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,839 this is the situation. He's inconclusive or she's inconclusive. Let's 638 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,519 try to take the same questions. Let's rephrase them a 639 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:04,000 little bit so that way they're not exactly the same, 640 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,039 but we just changed the language, and maybe we'll be 641 00:34:06,039 --> 00:34:08,280 able to render an opinion that way on the basis 642 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:09,119 of language. 643 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 3: How long does a polygraphic examination take? 644 00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:16,679 Speaker 5: Roughly so it should take minimum ninety minutes, which consist 645 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,760 of a pretest interview, the chart collection process, as well 646 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,519 as a post test interview. Depending upon the investigation of 647 00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:27,159 what's going on, whether it's relationship or a theft, a murder, 648 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,800 it all comes into different plays of how long the 649 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:31,800 interview is going to be slated for but it should 650 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,559 take a minimum of ninety minutes. 651 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 3: Now, I want to be clear here, I want to 652 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,719 read you something. I want to be explicit here. Okay, 653 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,400 My father, Joe Thomas, who passed away a couple of 654 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,440 years ago, dealt directly with the FBI agents who are 655 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,039 investigating my sister Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski's murder in 656 00:34:53,079 --> 00:34:56,280 nineteen eighty six as part of the Colonial Parkway murders. 657 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,400 They would be the start of the Colonial Parkway murders 658 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,360 as we know it. So my dad stayed in constant 659 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,280 contact with these agents, so much so that I remember 660 00:35:06,599 --> 00:35:09,360 around the dinner table I was almost thirty years old 661 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,480 at the time of Kathy's death. Of all the family members, 662 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,440 I was probably the most interested in the status of 663 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,519 the investigation. We knew the FBI agent's by name. My 664 00:35:22,639 --> 00:35:28,199 dad would say in his beautiful voice, I spoke to Today, 665 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,639 and then a couple of years later I spoke to Today, 666 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,760 and he got to know these agents really well, and 667 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,360 he really respected them, as do I now. I never 668 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,519 met these gentlemen, but my dad told me the story 669 00:35:40,559 --> 00:35:44,320 that I told you about the polygraphic examination in nineteen 670 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,480 eighty eight, many years later, when we were working on 671 00:35:48,519 --> 00:35:53,400 this Lover's Lane Murders television show for Oxygen, I met 672 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,360 with Irvin Wells, who was the former SAC for the 673 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,159 Norfolk FBI office. And I had three to four hours 674 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,719 twice with IRV Wells in his living room while we 675 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,119 were making the television series. Because we shot it twice, 676 00:36:08,559 --> 00:36:10,760 Irv and I had hours while they were setting up 677 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,559 the lights and the cameras and doing all the television stuff. 678 00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:15,840 So he and I talked about a number of things, 679 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,480 and he went back over this story about the polygraphic 680 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,440 examination and how these gentlemen were dismissed, if you will, 681 00:36:24,599 --> 00:36:29,840 as suspects. And Blaine Pardo and Victoria Hester, two authors 682 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,559 that did a great book on the Colonial Parkway murders, 683 00:36:32,599 --> 00:36:37,360 called a special kind of evil. Blaine interviewed IRV Wells, 684 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:40,800 who passed away in twenty twenty two. And here's what 685 00:36:41,039 --> 00:36:45,440 Blaine reports in his book. He said, IRV Wells felt 686 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:50,039 the same frustration. So these guys really did look hot. 687 00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:54,159 He's talking about the suspects in the Colonial Parkway disappearance 688 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:55,760 of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley. 689 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 2: We brought in a polygrapher. 690 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 3: He was one of the best the Bureau had anyway, 691 00:37:01,519 --> 00:37:02,960 blank something. 692 00:37:02,679 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 2: Was his name. 693 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,039 Speaker 3: I'll leave that out. He was known as the Bureau's 694 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:11,400 polygrapher extraordinaire and he was responsible for polygraphing the John 695 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:16,280 Walker case and other spy cases. And he said, these 696 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:21,159 guys didn't do it. We said you better f and 697 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,280 be right, and we walked away from him, meaning the suspect. 698 00:37:25,679 --> 00:37:29,880 I have always wondered. To defeat a polygraph, you have 699 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,840 to be more sophisticated than Oh. And they were watermen. 700 00:37:34,559 --> 00:37:37,239 That was a big thing. They were watermen, which is 701 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,639 what they said they were looking for as far back 702 00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:43,599 as nineteen eighty six, when Kathy and Becky were killed. 703 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,159 They said in eighty six were looking for watermen because 704 00:37:48,199 --> 00:37:52,880 of the rope, knives, handcuffs, and diesel fuel used in 705 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,400 my sister's murder. Back to IRV wells Now, he said 706 00:37:56,559 --> 00:37:59,119 they didn't do it and didn't know about it. He's 707 00:37:59,199 --> 00:38:03,599 quoting the polygraphic examiner. I respected him. It's just the 708 00:38:03,599 --> 00:38:07,199 way things go. You get frustrated. That's the way investigations go. 709 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,400 You get some people that look great, and something happens. 710 00:38:11,079 --> 00:38:14,679 Blaine continues the hopes of closing. Both Carl Haley and 711 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,760 possibly Thomas Dawski at the time ended with the polygrapher 712 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,440 clearing the suspect. 713 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 2: Does this. 714 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,559 Speaker 3: Is this how it works. The polygrapher doesn't get the 715 00:38:27,079 --> 00:38:30,360 result that we're looking for, and we dismiss the subject. 716 00:38:31,639 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 5: The examiner is there to only render an opinion on 717 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,360 the polygraphs that are ascertained from the physiological data of 718 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,159 the examine. They are then to turn over the results 719 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,760 to the investigative team or whoever is asking for the exam, 720 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,039 whichever agency it is or whatever case agent lead, etc. 721 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,000 And from there that's when it gets done. I have 722 00:38:55,159 --> 00:38:58,679 seen investigations get closed on the basis of polygraph results. 723 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,320 I have seen investigations get opened on the basis of 724 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,800 polygraph results, but it's not necessarily always on the basis 725 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,079 of the polygraph results. It's usually again it's part of 726 00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:12,960 it as an investigative tool to validate the credibility of 727 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,719 the individual taking the exam. There could have been other 728 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,119 factors that we're not aware of as to just simply 729 00:39:20,159 --> 00:39:22,440 closing the case on the basis of the polygraph that 730 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,960 we're not aware of. It could have been simply done 731 00:39:25,039 --> 00:39:27,199 on the basis of the exam, and they held weight 732 00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:30,400 to the credibility and the expertise and training of the examiner. 733 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,960 I don't know who the examiner is. I can't speak 734 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:38,079 to them, their efforts, whatever they've done. Personally, I do 735 00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:40,239 not like holding just the weight on the exam. I 736 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,599 want something also to substantiate the results, to validate again 737 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,480 using the polygraph as a tool in the process, because 738 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,400 the investigation should have happened which led them to the 739 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,599 reason of wanting to give a polygraph exam. 740 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 3: I'm not going to dance on this one. I'm still 741 00:39:57,519 --> 00:40:01,400 disturbed given all the additional in information that came out 742 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:06,599 about this suspect, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior involving the I'm 743 00:40:06,599 --> 00:40:09,360 going to call them what they were attacks on other 744 00:40:09,559 --> 00:40:13,480 couples who were engaged in sexual or romantic behavior. He 745 00:40:13,519 --> 00:40:17,119 would come up, bang very aggressively on the window and 746 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,800 demand driver's license. In most stories I've heard, and I'm 747 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,480 getting people coming out of the woodwork again thirty something 748 00:40:25,599 --> 00:40:28,800 years later as a result of this new information and 749 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,559 they're saying, this man driving that truck engaged us in 750 00:40:33,639 --> 00:40:37,599 an extremely aggressive and frightening manner. Now these people live 751 00:40:37,679 --> 00:40:41,320 to tell the tale, quite frankly, but they're clearly talking 752 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:46,440 about this man in this truck. I'm just struggling with something, 753 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,159 which is, how in the world do you dismiss a 754 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,360 suspect that even IRV Wells may he Rest in peace, 755 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,039 says we were red hot on these guys and we 756 00:40:57,199 --> 00:40:59,880 let it go. Am I wrong to be baffled? 757 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,440 Speaker 5: Absolutely not. And after speaking with you on the phone 758 00:41:04,519 --> 00:41:07,159 and a crime con regarding the case and the investigation 759 00:41:07,199 --> 00:41:09,760 and where we're at and everything that you've told me, 760 00:41:10,119 --> 00:41:12,800 it irritates me to be honest as an investigator as 761 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,800 well as an examiner, because if you have individuals that 762 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,320 are working in an agency on a specific case and 763 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:23,280 people have suspicions, why go ahead and discredit the thoughts 764 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,079 of your own employees with their own findings that are 765 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:32,280 actively working this case versus the opinion of just one examiner. So, yes, 766 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,480 there is the science, there is the research behind the 767 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,360 accuracy of the examination. But to me, I've always said, 768 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,679 you can't beat the polygraph, but you can beat the examiner, 769 00:41:42,119 --> 00:41:44,119 because if the examiner is not to up to date 770 00:41:44,119 --> 00:41:47,800 on their continuing education pertaining to new methodologies of scoring 771 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,880 algorithms in addition to different types of interview styles and techniques. 772 00:41:53,639 --> 00:41:55,960 We don't know what took place in the room. There 773 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,719 are times where I will get a phone call from 774 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,440 an attorney's office where or they'll go ahead and say, listen, 775 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,639 I have a client that took an exam with another 776 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,159 examiner for a law enforcement agency. It's part of discovery. 777 00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:10,440 I want to contract you as a third party consultant 778 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,119 to do a quality control. And what that means is 779 00:42:13,119 --> 00:42:15,360 that's taking a look at the interview which is audio 780 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,039 and video recorded in addition to the transcripts of whatever 781 00:42:19,159 --> 00:42:21,760 was done pertaining to the audio and video, as well 782 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,639 as the actual charts themselves. And I just had it 783 00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:27,639 recently on a federal case and I actually called up 784 00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:29,719 the attorney and I said, listen, the examiner that ran 785 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,280 the test did it by the book one hundred percent. 786 00:42:32,679 --> 00:42:34,280 And they were looking to me just to see if 787 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,360 I can find any fault anywhere, and I said, you 788 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,360 know what, this is the model, the ideal standard of 789 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,679 which I would want an exam conducted. And I work 790 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,960 as a polygraph instructor. I travel the country to teach 791 00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:50,280 at law enforcement agencies about polygraph not even just about methodology, 792 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,719 but also standards of practice and ethics and how to 793 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,679 be an ethical examiner and what do you do when 794 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,960 you get put into awkward situations where maybe your agency 795 00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,800 wants you to do one thing, but you know that 796 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:01,719 in your heart and in your mind this is the 797 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,440 right thing to do. So it comes down to also 798 00:43:04,599 --> 00:43:08,119 pressure given by superior sometimes when you have to render 799 00:43:08,119 --> 00:43:11,119 an opinion, the examiners need to stay strong and they 800 00:43:11,159 --> 00:43:12,920 need to trust the data that they have that's in 801 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,400 front of them and render the appropriate decisions. 802 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,519 Speaker 3: Lisa, I can't thank you enough for being with us 803 00:43:18,519 --> 00:43:19,840 on Mind over Murder today. 804 00:43:21,199 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 5: Of course, I'm having a blast. I'm so glad we 805 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,480 finally got a chance to do this because you and 806 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,480 I have been talking about this case for about almost 807 00:43:27,559 --> 00:43:30,599 two years now, and as soon as you posted on 808 00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:33,559 social media pertaining to these new updates, I couldn't have 809 00:43:34,039 --> 00:43:36,239 reached out to you any quicker and be like, we 810 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,760 have to talk. I just wish Kristin was here, and 811 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,360 I hope Christen's having a great time listening, and we'll 812 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,079 definitely have to revisit this as more case developments go on. 813 00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Of course, that's it. 814 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,800 Speaker 3: For this episode of mind Over Murder. Kristin Dilley will 815 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,840 be back with us next time. Thanks for listening. 816 00:44:04,599 --> 00:44:08,119 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 817 00:44:08,199 --> 00:44:09,639 Another Dog Productions. 818 00:44:10,199 --> 00:44:13,559 Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 819 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 820 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 821 00:44:19,559 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 822 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 3: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 823 00:44:27,599 --> 00:44:30,199 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 824 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,079 Murders on Facebook. 825 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,880 Speaker 3: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 826 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,519 Bill Thomas five six. 827 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,119 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.