Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas.
Speaker 3: I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am
now trying to use my experience as the brother of
a murder victim to help other victims of violent crime.
I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway
Murders Facebook group together with Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 4: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the
social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway
Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime.
Speaker 5: Bill Thomas.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Over Murderer. I'm Bill Thomas. Kristin Dilly,
my podcast partner is a way on assignment, but you'll
be back next time on mind Over Murder with lots
of enthusiasm and new stories to tell. So it's just
me today. Together with me is Lisa Ribakoff, who when
you get to know her, she's just amazing. Has an
incredible background which I'll let her tell you about. Never
forget the fact. In addition to being an accomplished professional.
Lisa Ribercoff is also kind to children and small animals.
You're gonna absolutely love her. Lisa Riberkoff, Welcome to Mind
over Murder.
Speaker 5: Hi Phil, thanks for having me, and I appreciate the
accolade pertaining to small children and animals. I love them both.
Speaker 3: Lisa, tell people about yourself and don't be modest here.
Speaker 5: Just let it fly, Okay, Hi everyone, Thank you again
Bill for having me. I am Lisa Ribertaff. I am
a New York State licensed private investigator as well as
an advanced trained polygraph examiner. I have been a licensed
private investigator now since I Gosh make me do math
on demand, I would say, the past twelve to thirteen years,
and also a polygraph examiner for the same amount of time.
I currently serve on the Board of Directors of the
American Polygraph Association as the Seminar program at which means
I run a ten day seminar for pretty much our
membership as well as polygraph examiners that are interested in
attending our annual seminar. And I'm also currently on the
task force for the National Cold Case Task Force, so
I definitely have my hands full and I love everything
that I do because it's about victims centered advocacy and justice,
whether it's through investigative skills or using the polygraph as
an investigative tool. And again, thank you for having me
here today.
Speaker 3: Well, you've been all over the news lately because I'm
seeing you commenting about the recent polygraph examination on camera
no Less of Casey Anthony's parents. You didn't work that case,
but you did provide some media commentary, but a fairly
accurate representation.
Speaker 5: Yes, that's correct. I did not directly work the Casey
Anthony case at all and or administered the polygraph exams
that were given to Casey's parents. What I decided to
do I was interact with my Twitter followers and kind
of educate the general public. The idea came to me
the night before and I just said, you know what,
I'm going to watch it and then I'm going to
go ahead and provide my expert commentary as to what
exactly people are seeing, because just because you see something
doesn't mean you actually understand what's going on. So I
paid for Hulu plus TV seventy nine dollars for a
month because my cable package didn't have a and E
as part of it, and I said, crap, how am
I going to do this? So I went online, created
an account, and I streamed it on my computer, so
I had the documentary up on my laptop and then
I use a TV monitor as a computer, So I
was sitting there going back and forth live streaming and
typing as the whole thing was going on. And then
that took about two hours of my life that I'm
clearly not going to get back. But the feedback I
had gotten was incredible, right because it became educational experience
and people were seeing it in real time of what
exactly is going on. It was great because obviously increase
my Twitter following, so because that's really what I'm using
to connect with everyone these days. And then the other
side of it was people commenting, Okay, this was great,
when's the next one happening? And my only response was
get someone to take a polygraph and have it either
televised or put into a TV show and I'll do
the same thing. So until that happens, I guess I'm
not going to be sitting in front of Twitter for
two hours.
Speaker 3: So before we talk about the Long Island serial killer,
Gilgo Beach four case. Let's tell people what your Twitter
handle is so they can follow you, because obviously there's
a lot to be learned from someone with your level
of expertise.
Speaker 5: So my Twitter handle is very simple. It's just my
first and last name, and I'll spell it for you
because many people screw it up. It's Lisa, Lisa, and
then my last name, ri Iba COOSF.
Speaker 3: You've also been very involved. I've seen you on a
number of different platforms, television, podcasting, live breaks from our
friend Joe Jackalone and others discussing the Long Island serial
killer slash gilg Beach four. Heaven forbid, we could come
up with one name that worked case. What's your involvement
there on the Gilgo Beach four case.
Speaker 5: My involvement with the case is that I'm not an
active investigator on their task force. I am not directly
involved with the investigation. My role has turned into being
a subject matter expert given that I am a private investigator.
I also live on Long Island, about twenty five minutes
away from Gilgo Beach. So because I was raised in
the media towards when this investigation started and I followed
it closely, I've had just media outlets reach out to
me and say, Hey, can we have the commentary or
can we jump on a zoom or a YouTube or
a podcast recording to break down the bail documents, talk
about maybe the demographics of Long Island, what's going on
with the case, things like that. So I've got my
hands on the pulse of what's going on over here, and.
Speaker 2: You're a legacy.
Speaker 3: I called your office the other day looking for you,
and I ended up talking to your dad briefly, who
was unbelievably nice. Also, I'm calling saying I need to
talk to Lisa urgently and can you get a message
to her, And at the end of the call, I said,
may I ask who I'm speaking to.
Speaker 2: And he said, oh, this is her dad.
Speaker 3: Your dad is also a private investigator and polygraph examiner.
Speaker 5: Yes, my dad is both, And that's how I got
into the business. I started off doing private investigation work
as an office assistant, where kids in high school would
have normal upbringings and do sports and clubs and activities,
and I'd be like, that's not fun. So I would
leave my local high school walk to his office was
a few blocks away, stop and dunkin Donuts, next door,
get my donut and my chocolate milk, and go up
to the office and I would ind on phone calls
or the surveillance agents would give in like they're billing
and their time sheets, and I would import it. That's
when I was sixteen, and I slowly moved my way
up the rankings into being an office assistant to being
a surveillance coordinator where we had agents in the fields
and I'd have to contact clients and scheduling or handle
investigations and then go out and take statements regards to
witnesses or accidents or whatever we had going on. And
then it turned into a surveillance operative where I would
be in the field doing surveillances. But now we're at
the point where my dad and I are kind of
partners in the business. He still owns it, I still
follow the rules, and there's one day he's my dad,
the next day he's my boss. So it's definitely creating
an interesting dynamic. And family dinners, especially in public, are
fantastic because people overhear the conversation and they're like, I'm
going to stop eating. I want to listen to what
they're talking.
Speaker 2: I can imagine and my.
Speaker 5: Mom works in the business, my brother works in the business.
So it's great to see the transition of me growing
up where even in elementary school kids were like, Oh,
my dad's a doctor, my mom's a lawyer, or my
dad's a policeman, and I'm I'm like, my dad's a spy.
My dad's James Bond. I'd always had that cool thought
of like an undercover spy, never like KGB or anything.
I didn't go that far, but I was just like
dad's got like gizmos and gadgets and stuff. And so
to be able to be raised in the business, grow
in the business as well as helped grow the business
to where we are now has been such a great
experience and it's definitely made my dad an eye. As
close as we are now.
Speaker 3: It's not a normal upbringing, though not by a long shot.
Your life, even as a teenager, sounds completely different from
most of the rest of us.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it definitely was very different. It made it a
lot more interesting because, especially like growing up, I had
my own dating life in college and high school or
whatever it was for me, I always went into it
with a radar or like the light beam. That was
like figuring out who was good to date and who
was bad to date, and then thinking, Okay, I'm in college.
Do I need to run a background check on this guy?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 5: It definitely added some fun to the mix. I guess
you can say that it all works out in the end,
and I'm very happy now and I can only go
up from there. Pretty much.
Speaker 3: We've had a situation developed in the Colonial Parkway murders
that has resulted in our listeners coming forward with tons
of questions about one of your many specialties, which is
being a polygraphic examiner. How polygraphic examinations work. I need
to tee this up a little bit with a bit
of background about why so many people who are supporters
of mind over murder and those families, including mine, that
were impacted by the Colonial Parkway murders, why they're asking
so many questions. It's come out in the last two
weeks since the FBI and the Virginia State Police in
the Hampton, Virginia Police Department announced that they had identified
a suspect, Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior, who is deceased. He
died in twenty seventeen, as the offender responsible for the
murder of Robin Edwards and David Knobling, who were part
of the Colonial Parkway murders. They were killed in nineteen
eighty seven. And then another case which we were less
familiar with because it wasn't part of the Colonial Parkway murders,
and that was the murder of a lovely young woman
named Teresa Howell in nineteen eighty nine, who was murdered
by herself after likely meeting the offender in a bar
called the Zodiac Club in Hampton, Virginia.
Speaker 2: What wasn't said was that.
Speaker 3: Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior was also suspect number one in
the disappearance and likely murder of Keith Call and Cassandra
Haley in nineteen eighty eight as part of the Colonial
Parkway murders. Now it's necessary to do a little bit
of a recap here. The FBI received information after the
disappearance of Keith Call and Cassandra Haley and the discovery
of Keith's Toyota Celica on the Colonial Parkway about a
mile or so from where my sister Kathy Tom and
her girlfriend Rebeccaudowski had been found murdered a year and
a half prior. Of course, In the meantime, then a
second couple, the aforementioned Robin Edwards and David Nobling, had
also been murdered, not on the Colonial Parkway, but about
a half an hour away at this place called the
Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge. The FBI knew they had a problem.
They had two couples, one gay, one straight, who'd been
brutally murdered, and now they had a missing couple and
the car found on the Colonial Parkway just down the
road from where the first incident took place, and the
FBI immediately recognized they had a problem. They did a
full court press, which the FBI is actually quite good at.
They rented out every room in a hotel just off
the Colonial Parkway, and they brought in a number of
different agents and support staff. And one of the things
that emerged almost immediately was that a number of people
on the Colonial Parkway. Remember this is pre cell phone,
pre internet, so they're putting out an APB looking for information,
but a number of people, including couples, reported that this
very distinctive truck was cruising the Colonial Parkway that evening
that Keith and Sandy went missing, and they described the truck.
It was dark blue or dark green riding on the doors,
and a very elaborate mechanism on the back that kind
of would look like a tow truck to my eye,
but was actually the tongs that are used to pull
crab pots and oyster from the ocean. And this, of
course is a big fishing crabbing an oystering area, so
they knew they were looking for this truck. It kept
coming up in reports that this truck had been seen
cruising all these little half moon pulloffs along the Colonial Parkway.
The agents who are communicating by radio no cell phones
back then, are discussing this a number of different times
as more information comes in. During this time, a non agent,
the guy that maintained the radios, had heard all of
the agents discussing this very distinctive vehicle, which is truly
a one of a kind, and he radioed in a
couple of days after the investigation had begun and said, guys,
I'm next to that truck on the highway. He described
the truck and they said that's the one. And now
he gets the license plate, which is obviously incredibly helpful.
It was a vanity plate and it said E m
raw eat them. Raw, which is a sexually suggestive joke,
I would say, as well as an oyster reference, which
is what this truck was set up to do. Now
the FBI has the license plate, so they know where
to find this guy. Four days after Keith and Sandy
went missing on the Colonial Parkway, two agents rolled up
on this man's home, which is out in Lancaster, Virginia,
a couple of hours away from the site where the
disappearance had taken place. The agents were immediately concerned because
they felt this man was engaged in very suspicious behavior.
He's washing out his truck and repainting the surfaces inside
the cab of the truck. And this is a real
beater work truck. This isn't a fancy truck. They are
immediately suspicious that this guy's up to something he shouldn't be.
They spoke to him, interviewed him, and then they went
away and immediately got a search warrant for his property.
And they went back with a search warrant and searched.
Sometimes we hear trailer, other times small modest house. I
think we're talking about the same structure without a doubt
that he shared with his brother. They knew they were
looking for certain things, and as part of that search
warrant they discovered guns, handcuffs, and extensive collection of pornography.
And of course we've had profilers on mindover murder who
were just saying, these are all red flags for the
kind of person you'd be looking for in a murder
series like the Colonial Parkway murders. At some point shortly thereafter,
they bring this man for a polygraph examination, and we're
told there may have been two polygraphic examinations for this
man and a second man who's not identified, So I'm
not sure who that is. Could be the brother, could
be someone else. But the polygraph examiner, who's one of
the top people at the FBI, who has done all
the top spy cases. There were a bunch of spy
cases that broke back in the eighties and nineties at
the Norfolk FBI Field office because of the big military
presence down there. They busted a number of spies. This
same polygraphic examiner gave the tests to those individuals. So
this gentleman was very highly regarded. But here's where we
get tripped up, and this is where you come in, Lisa.
As we understand it, they gave a test or tests
to Ellen Wade Wilmer, Senior and another unnamed man, and
they passed the first examination. Now we're hearing they may
have actually taken a second examination and the results were inconclusive. Regardless,
they missed these men as suspects in the disappearance of
Keith Collin Cassandra Haley, despite all of this extensive circumstantial evidence. Further,
as they continued to look at incidents on the Colonial Parkway,
couples began coming forward and they reported that they had
been attacked basically by this same gentleman driving this same truck,
pulling them over, flashing his lights, demanding driver's licenses in
a highly aggressive way, and trying to get couples to
roll their windows down, and several couples actually feared for
their lives. One couple was so terrified by this guy
that they tried to drive away at a high rate
of speed. He tried to block them with this same truck.
They turned around and sped out of one of these
half moon pull offs at a high rate of speed,
and they were able to lose him. When they finally
got to Route seventeen, which is a nearby major road,
there are all these scary incidents involving this man. When
we look back, and I know hindsight's twenty twenty and
all that, I think to myself, why did they let
this man go? But the answer to date seems to
be we gave them polygraph exam and at least he
passed the first one, or they passed the first one.
So walk us through polygraphic examinations if you would. And
we're civilians here and I know this is your area
of expertise. Educate us a little bit, if you will, Lisa,
on how polygraph examinations work.
Speaker 5: So polygraph exams have been around for over one hundred years.
They started off as the analog instrument, which is typically
what everyone sees in TVs or movies where you have
the contraption or the machine on the desk and you
see the paper rolling out the side, and you see
the needles moving up and down. Through the course of
the years, we have now transitioned from using analog to digital.
And what digital is that it operates off a laptop computer.
The instrument is pretty much about maybe half the size
of a tissue box, is just a little bit thinner,
has the different connector reports into it, and those are
the different factors that we go ahead and measure to
which the data is then transmitted onto a laptop, and
what we use to see on the pen and paper
with the needles moving is now what we observe on
the actual computer. The benefits of also transitioning to digital
is the fact that we have scoring algorithms and scoring
software built into the technology that we're using pertaining to
the programs that we're using to acquire the data, and
by data, the physiological reactions that the person provides in
response to the question. So the person that's taking the
test is going to be attached to pneumographs once it's
on their chest and once it's on their stomach to
measure two different sources of breathing, as some people breathe
from their stomach and some people breathe from their chest,
and some people breathe from both, so we acquire breathing
respirations from that. They also are wearing a blood pressure
cuff in which we're monitoring the heart rate and blood
flow with regards to the questions that are being asked.
And then they're also going to be wearing two plates
on their fingers which measure the galvanic skin reactions, which
is ultimately Swickland respond to the questions that are being
asked on the exam. Because on the exam we don't
just ask relevant questions, meaning the questions about what the
topic is that the reason you're taking the exam. We're
also asking you other types of questions to gear your
reactions to those questions as well in comparison to the
relevant questions.
Speaker 3: How does that tie into an investigation? For example, how
are polygraph examinations and examiners tying into working with their
investigative partners.
Speaker 5: The polygraph is an investigative tool, and that's what I've
always said. It's not the be all, it's not the
end all. It is there to support your investigation and
to support the findings that you have come across. There
is a misconception that the polygraph is there to catch
the guilty. I am very much a firm believer that
the polygraph is there to clear the innocent. People have
to go ahead and have a methodology to show that
what they're saying is being truthful. For example, it's the
fact that an individual could be accused of murder. They
want to take the test to go ahead and show
that data back commit the murder. Same thing with regards
to effect, and even if something as simple as proving
infidelity in a marriage or a relationship, to show that
infidelity didn't occur. So polygraphs can be issued when they
are event based and you're testing the situation. You can't
test opinions, you can't test thoughts, you can't test emotions
just for example, that your opinions and your emotions change.
Whereas polygraphs, when you're testing events, you're testing with the
idea of did something happen or did something not happen?
And that's what we're going ahead and using it as
an investigative tool to support the investigation.
Speaker 3: How reliable is polygraph testing.
Speaker 5: The exam reliability is constantly being researched by the researchers
in our industry. It's been yielding pertaining to the metadata
analysis to getting a ninety to a ninety three percent accuracy.
Most people think that or they question why is it
not one hundred percent accurate? And I tell everyone bluntly,
even when pepill call my office to ask about the accuracy,
is said, nothing in life is one hundred percent except
the fact that you're born, you die, and you have
to pay taxes. That's it. Because of scientific studies and
different variables that come into play, we can go ahead
and we can say between like an eighty eight to
ninety three percent accuracy pertaining to the exam.
Speaker 3: So you can't stake your life on it, that's for sure.
Speaker 5: You can't save your life, which is why it's an
investigative tool. It is subjective to the point of it
will provide you the necessary resources and information to take
your investigation further pertaining to keeping it open or keeping
it closed. But there is value and there is wait
where it does get administered, such as in Rockville conviction
cases where someone can file a four to forty motion
to vacate the conviction. It has been used plenty of
times to go ahead and release someone from a criminal institution,
jail or prison wherever they are for a prod that
they did not commit.
Speaker 3: So do you feel I know you weren't a polygraphic
examiner back in the eighties. That was a long time ago.
Speaker 5: I was barely born, sweetheart.
Speaker 3: Do you feel that polygraphic examinations back then? This would
have been what nineteen eighty eight.
Speaker 2: So that's thirty thirty six, six.
Speaker 3: Years ago coming up actually because the exam was a
little later in the year. As we understand it, what's
your sense of the reliability of polygraphic examinations in a
pre digital environment back in the eighties.
Speaker 5: I'd say, for me, it comes down to not necessarily
the technology. It comes down more to the training of
the examiner and the systems that are in place during
not only just the pre test interview, but it was
the chart collection. Because when you're dealing with technology, you
have to take a look at a couple of different things.
Number one, that analogue instrument measures less components than we
do now, an increased amount of data that we can
acquire now versus then number two, the cleanliness of the charts.
And what I mean by that is when you're dealing
with the pen and paper that's only one copy. If
you mess that up, you spill coffee on it, you
spill water, whatever it is, it tears, you lose your
data versus now on the digital side, it gets saved
into a computer. I can print out one hundred and
fifty copies of something if I wanted, and the data
doesn't change. Also, you have the scoring methodologies that are
built into the software. Whereas previously there was no accountability
for the examiner's ruling other than that one chart that
was printed and torn off the machine given to another
examiner by hand. Now again we have the scoring where
we have a computerized, independent, unbiased opportunity for a scoring
decision to be rendered by the computer. But we also
have the opportunity for me to save the charts, download
them and email them to another examiner anywhere in the
world that's a qualified examiner to run their own scoring decision,
and so so.
Speaker 3: He or she can help you by offering a second opinion,
a third opinion. And do you feel that wasn't really
available using this earlier technology.
Speaker 5: I don't know what the department protocols would have been,
but I know where I've run at aalog tests just
for demonstration purposes, and what the charts look like. I'd
have to rip it off the instrument, fold it up
a certain way, or roll it up a certain way
physically handed to someone like I'm running the four x
four in the Olympics, I'm on the track, it looks
like a baton. Where in teror comes into play of
the actual physical data and the chart because again that's
the only copy that you have. So I think it's
also the transition the wear and tear, whether they used heat,
whether they used ink. That also comes into a factor.
So there are a lot of different de terminalities pertaining
to not necessarily the accuracy of the exam, but my
concern is pertaining to the control of the data and
the transmission of the actual data itself from person to
person or case file to case file.
Speaker 3: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
mindover Murder. Help us out, by the way, Lisa, most
of us our experience with live detection or proper name
polygraphic examinations is from film and TV. As you mentioned,
when I watch one of those tests being administered in
a film or a television show, the examiner marks what
looks like a paper roll, sometimes with a pen or
writing implement. What is he or she doing when they
are making these marks for.
Speaker 5: What you're seeing is for as an exam for demonstration
and or media entertainment purposes. What they could be doing
is they could be marking plus or minus is if
they passed the question, or they could be doing chart markings,
scoring identifying possible. Maybe if someone took a deep breath,
are they sneezed or they cough, because all those body movements,
even though they're automatic, could affect the examine effect the
chart readings. They just want to notate any abnormalities that
could be showing up in the chart. They could also
be going ahead and just taking notes maybe movement, body language,
things like that, or even going ahead and importing. The
plus or minus could be plus meaning they answered yes
to the question, or the minus could be no. So
unless I actually see what's going on, and I can
actually see what's happening, I really can't speak to it.
But those are all just possible hypotheticals that could be
taking place right.
Speaker 3: Neither one of us is a psychologist or a psychiatrist.
But yes, I have read a number of different times
and many of our listeners have asked this question. Is
it true in the literature that psychopaths or sociopaths can
beat a polygraph.
Speaker 5: There's a couple of different angles on this one. You're
dealing with the psychology of an individual. We don't know
if they're a psychopath per se or have psychiatric issues
until we actually meet with the person and we do
our pretest interview and we ask about medications, medical of
conditions and clear them just to make sure that they
are eligible to take the exam, and that takes place
at the time of the test. It also comes down
to the training of the examiner to make sure that
they ask the right questions to clear the individual to
take an exam. So does full on the examiner training,
and it also depends upon the scope of the questions
that are being asked. Can they take a test? Yes,
anyone is eligible to take an exam as long as
they fit the criteria of being eligible to take the exam.
As long as they meet the criteria to go ahead
and take the test, that's not an issue at all,
meaning that they can't have illegal drugs or alcohol in
their system and that they add are adequately rested.
Speaker 3: Now, another thing I've read is that by ingesting drugs
or alcohol, it might be possible to throw off a
polygmath examination.
Speaker 2: Is that also true?
Speaker 5: Yes, people can attempt to go ahead and do that.
It is referred to as a chemical countermeasure, And by countermeasure,
I mean trying to beat the test. You're trying to
counter affect the actual physiological data that comes from your
body to the exam. And I always tell everyone you
would not try and beat the test if you knew
you were going to pass, which is why during the
protest interview we discuss medications. Where an individual tells me
they're not on any medications, they have no medical conditions.
But I start to run the exam and the chart
collection process, and I see that they're not reacting in
the normal fashion as I'll put it, that I can
go ahead and suspect that there possibly is something chemical
in their system, to which I will then address it
with them and say, these are the chart findings, and
I'll even sometimes show them in the chart. This is
what a normal chart looks like. This is what your
chart looks like. What reason or what factor do you
have for this looking the way that it does?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: Would you be hesitant if you knew, and obviously hindsight
is twenty twenty, we're looking back at this case, which
now stretches back for thirty seven years. Would you be
more hesitant or cautious if you became aware of the
fact that an individual you were giving a polygraph examination
too had taken previous polygraph examinations that were inconclusive.
Speaker 5: I've had that before, where examinees have taken exams with
other examiners and they have been founded or deceptive or inconclusive.
And for me, what I like to do is leave
that to the side. Because I wasn't there in the room.
I wasn't there for the pretest interview. I don't know
the questions that were asked. I don't know what type
of format that was used, because there are different types
of polygraph formats that we use to collect data, and
it also depends upon the testable issue and the format
that the examiner chooses to go with. I like to
go ahead and leave any predetermined dispositions that the examinee
may have because of another examiner to the side, and
then I will go out head and run my own
exam for start to finish on the basis of what
information is provided to me at the time of the appointment.
Speaker 3: Now I know again I'm mixing in our twenty twenty
four knowledge of this suspect. We know he is a
confirmed serial killer. This is Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior. He's
been linked via DNA by the Virginia State Police. The
FBI and the Hampton, Virginia Police Department to homicides of
at least three people, the couple that I mentioned, Robin
Edwards and David Nappling. Now he's been linked via DNA
to Teresa Howell, who's murdered in nineteen eighty nine, about
two years after the murder of Robin Edwards and David Noppling,
and about a year after the disappearance of Keith Call
and Cassandra Haley. Would you approach that individual differently if
you knew that he was a serial killer and that
was confirmed. Obviously, we can't combine our knowledge from where
we were in the eighties when this man was an
active serial killer and perhaps extending well past that point
and what we know about him now. But if you
knew someone was a serial killer, would you approach the
examine a different way?
Speaker 5: I would approach it in terms of just like anyone
else sitting across the table, because I don't want to
go in and let him know what my cards are.
I want to give him an opportunity. Again, like I mentioned,
the polygraph is there to clear the innocent. I'm going
to go ahead and give him the same lecture. You know,
what everyone's saying that this is what you are. I
want to go ahead and confirm that you're not, because
I want to give him the opportunity to be comfortable
with me, to have a conversation and have a dialogue,
possibly give me case information that the general public doesn't
have because he slips up in a conversation. So if
I can go ahead and establish rapport with him and
advocate in that meeting to what he thinks is me
being on his side and part of his defense team
versus working for prosecution, I want to go ahead and
level the playing fields and get them comfortable to even
get him to consent to take the test, because if
I can set that report, get him to consent to
take the test, and if he fails, it's just further
proof using the polygraph as an investigative tool, that he
is guilty and he is responsible for what he's being
accused of.
Speaker 3: And if he passes the test or it's inconclusive, that's
an investigative tool and an investigative result as well.
Speaker 2: Is that fair?
Speaker 5: So the investigative result of inconclusive means that I can't
render an opinion with regards to a polygraph. You're either
passing or failing. It's like a pregnancy test. You're either pregnant,
you're not pregnant. There's no such thing as a little
bit of pregnant. There's no such thing a whole lot.
So you have to just it's just it's one of
the most common references that I can use with regards
to explaining fast and fills.
Speaker 3: Sorry, no, it's a good one.
Speaker 5: It's more so in terms of the fact of the
inconclusive being the gray area where you're not all the
way to the left, you're not all the way to
the right. You fall in between the threshold of what
I need. So if I need let's say a plus
three or higher to pass, or a minus three or
lower to fail, and you come in at a zero
positive want or positive two or negative one or negative two,
that's your inconclusive, your gray area. So I can't go
ahead and have enough data to support a past or
a fail. So I rule it as a no opinion,
and at that point I will go ahead and offer
the examine a retest to say, listen, I'm not going
to call you a liar, and I'm not going to
call you as someone as being truthful or being honest
or deceptive. I can't say it because I don't have
the data to support it. So I want to give
you the benefit of the doubt. I want you to
go home, get a good night rest, have breakfast in
the morning, or make sure you eat during the day.
And let's just go ahead and try this again. And
at that point I'll speak with either the law enforcement
agency or I'll speak with the therapist or whoever i'm
working with that retains my services, and I'll say, listen,
this is the situation. He's inconclusive or she's inconclusive. Let's
try to take the same questions. Let's rephrase them a
little bit so that way they're not exactly the same,
but we just changed the language, and maybe we'll be
able to render an opinion that way on the basis
of language.
Speaker 3: How long does a polygraphic examination take?
Speaker 5: Roughly so it should take minimum ninety minutes, which consist
of a pretest interview, the chart collection process, as well
as a post test interview. Depending upon the investigation of
what's going on, whether it's relationship or a theft, a murder,
it all comes into different plays of how long the
interview is going to be slated for but it should
take a minimum of ninety minutes.
Speaker 3: Now, I want to be clear here, I want to
read you something. I want to be explicit here. Okay,
My father, Joe Thomas, who passed away a couple of
years ago, dealt directly with the FBI agents who are
investigating my sister Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski's murder in
nineteen eighty six as part of the Colonial Parkway murders.
They would be the start of the Colonial Parkway murders
as we know it. So my dad stayed in constant
contact with these agents, so much so that I remember
around the dinner table I was almost thirty years old
at the time of Kathy's death. Of all the family members,
I was probably the most interested in the status of
the investigation. We knew the FBI agent's by name. My
dad would say in his beautiful voice, I spoke to Today,
and then a couple of years later I spoke to Today,
and he got to know these agents really well, and
he really respected them, as do I now. I never
met these gentlemen, but my dad told me the story
that I told you about the polygraphic examination in nineteen
eighty eight, many years later, when we were working on
this Lover's Lane Murders television show for Oxygen, I met
with Irvin Wells, who was the former SAC for the
Norfolk FBI office. And I had three to four hours
twice with IRV Wells in his living room while we
were making the television series. Because we shot it twice,
Irv and I had hours while they were setting up
the lights and the cameras and doing all the television stuff.
So he and I talked about a number of things,
and he went back over this story about the polygraphic
examination and how these gentlemen were dismissed, if you will,
as suspects. And Blaine Pardo and Victoria Hester, two authors
that did a great book on the Colonial Parkway murders,
called a special kind of evil. Blaine interviewed IRV Wells,
who passed away in twenty twenty two. And here's what
Blaine reports in his book. He said, IRV Wells felt
the same frustration. So these guys really did look hot.
He's talking about the suspects in the Colonial Parkway disappearance
of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley.
Speaker 2: We brought in a polygrapher.
Speaker 3: He was one of the best the Bureau had anyway,
blank something.
Speaker 2: Was his name.
Speaker 3: I'll leave that out. He was known as the Bureau's
polygrapher extraordinaire and he was responsible for polygraphing the John
Walker case and other spy cases. And he said, these
guys didn't do it. We said you better f and
be right, and we walked away from him, meaning the suspect.
I have always wondered. To defeat a polygraph, you have
to be more sophisticated than Oh. And they were watermen.
That was a big thing. They were watermen, which is
what they said they were looking for as far back
as nineteen eighty six, when Kathy and Becky were killed.
They said in eighty six were looking for watermen because
of the rope, knives, handcuffs, and diesel fuel used in
my sister's murder. Back to IRV wells Now, he said
they didn't do it and didn't know about it. He's
quoting the polygraphic examiner. I respected him. It's just the
way things go. You get frustrated. That's the way investigations go.
You get some people that look great, and something happens.
Blaine continues the hopes of closing. Both Carl Haley and
possibly Thomas Dawski at the time ended with the polygrapher
clearing the suspect.
Speaker 2: Does this.
Speaker 3: Is this how it works. The polygrapher doesn't get the
result that we're looking for, and we dismiss the subject.
Speaker 5: The examiner is there to only render an opinion on
the polygraphs that are ascertained from the physiological data of
the examine. They are then to turn over the results
to the investigative team or whoever is asking for the exam,
whichever agency it is or whatever case agent lead, etc.
And from there that's when it gets done. I have
seen investigations get closed on the basis of polygraph results.
I have seen investigations get opened on the basis of
polygraph results, but it's not necessarily always on the basis
of the polygraph results. It's usually again it's part of
it as an investigative tool to validate the credibility of
the individual taking the exam. There could have been other
factors that we're not aware of as to just simply
closing the case on the basis of the polygraph that
we're not aware of. It could have been simply done
on the basis of the exam, and they held weight
to the credibility and the expertise and training of the examiner.
I don't know who the examiner is. I can't speak
to them, their efforts, whatever they've done. Personally, I do
not like holding just the weight on the exam. I
want something also to substantiate the results, to validate again
using the polygraph as a tool in the process, because
the investigation should have happened which led them to the
reason of wanting to give a polygraph exam.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to dance on this one. I'm still
disturbed given all the additional in information that came out
about this suspect, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior involving the I'm
going to call them what they were attacks on other
couples who were engaged in sexual or romantic behavior. He
would come up, bang very aggressively on the window and
demand driver's license. In most stories I've heard, and I'm
getting people coming out of the woodwork again thirty something
years later as a result of this new information and
they're saying, this man driving that truck engaged us in
an extremely aggressive and frightening manner. Now these people live
to tell the tale, quite frankly, but they're clearly talking
about this man in this truck. I'm just struggling with something,
which is, how in the world do you dismiss a
suspect that even IRV Wells may he Rest in peace,
says we were red hot on these guys and we
let it go. Am I wrong to be baffled?
Speaker 5: Absolutely not. And after speaking with you on the phone
and a crime con regarding the case and the investigation
and where we're at and everything that you've told me,
it irritates me to be honest as an investigator as
well as an examiner, because if you have individuals that
are working in an agency on a specific case and
people have suspicions, why go ahead and discredit the thoughts
of your own employees with their own findings that are
actively working this case versus the opinion of just one examiner. So, yes,
there is the science, there is the research behind the
accuracy of the examination. But to me, I've always said,
you can't beat the polygraph, but you can beat the examiner,
because if the examiner is not to up to date
on their continuing education pertaining to new methodologies of scoring
algorithms in addition to different types of interview styles and techniques.
We don't know what took place in the room. There
are times where I will get a phone call from
an attorney's office where or they'll go ahead and say, listen,
I have a client that took an exam with another
examiner for a law enforcement agency. It's part of discovery.
I want to contract you as a third party consultant
to do a quality control. And what that means is
that's taking a look at the interview which is audio
and video recorded in addition to the transcripts of whatever
was done pertaining to the audio and video, as well
as the actual charts themselves. And I just had it
recently on a federal case and I actually called up
the attorney and I said, listen, the examiner that ran
the test did it by the book one hundred percent.
And they were looking to me just to see if
I can find any fault anywhere, and I said, you
know what, this is the model, the ideal standard of
which I would want an exam conducted. And I work
as a polygraph instructor. I travel the country to teach
at law enforcement agencies about polygraph not even just about methodology,
but also standards of practice and ethics and how to
be an ethical examiner and what do you do when
you get put into awkward situations where maybe your agency
wants you to do one thing, but you know that
in your heart and in your mind this is the
right thing to do. So it comes down to also
pressure given by superior sometimes when you have to render
an opinion, the examiners need to stay strong and they
need to trust the data that they have that's in
front of them and render the appropriate decisions.
Speaker 3: Lisa, I can't thank you enough for being with us
on Mind over Murder today.
Speaker 5: Of course, I'm having a blast. I'm so glad we
finally got a chance to do this because you and
I have been talking about this case for about almost
two years now, and as soon as you posted on
social media pertaining to these new updates, I couldn't have
reached out to you any quicker and be like, we
have to talk. I just wish Kristin was here, and
I hope Christen's having a great time listening, and we'll
definitely have to revisit this as more case developments go on.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Of course, that's it.
Speaker 3: For this episode of mind Over Murder. Kristin Dilley will
be back with us next time. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.
Speaker 3: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 3: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.