Speaker 1: Hi, This is Peat Makepeace calling from Solihull in the
Speaker 1: United Kingdom and I play at Stonebridge Golf Club. This
Speaker 1: is golf Smart number.
Speaker 2: Four hundred and eighty four, published on April fourteen, twenty fifteen.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Golf Smarter Mulligans, your second chance to gain
Speaker 3: insight and advice from the best instructors featured on the
Speaker 3: Golf Smarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction Never gets Old. Our
Speaker 3: interview library features hundreds of hours of game improvement conversations
Speaker 3: like this that are no longer available in any podcast app.
Speaker 1: Within the series Golfers that are out there, there's a
Speaker 1: definite faction who look at this possibility of non conforming
Speaker 1: equipment playing simple level of cheating. Well, okay, it is
Speaker 1: cheating if you use it in a real competition, even
Speaker 1: if it's anywhere from your Saturday morning sweeps to the
Speaker 1: club championship to the County diameter to the Staumeter. And
Speaker 1: but there's a whole bunch of people who probably would
Speaker 1: never play in those things simply want to go out
Speaker 1: and just get it a little bit better than they do.
Speaker 1: Right now, nice side is recording a little different because
Speaker 1: I've watched how the whole business model is that all
Speaker 1: the big golf companies go out and they do their
Speaker 1: engineering and they develop their new clubhead technology, and then
Speaker 1: they build their golf clubs so they're all the same length,
Speaker 1: same loss, same lying angles, seem everything, so that they
Speaker 1: can be shipped into all the retail stores to more
Speaker 1: easily be sold off the rack. That's how you sell
Speaker 1: four hundred million dollars where the golf clubs a year.
Speaker 1: But the point still remains, golfers are as different in
Speaker 1: our size, our strength, our athletic ability, and especially in
Speaker 1: our swing characteristics. Standard made clubs are not going to
Speaker 1: help every single golfer play to the best of their
Speaker 1: given ability. That's where custom fitting can step in and
Speaker 1: help people play better and play more.
Speaker 2: Surprising information on how to cut seven to ten strokes
Speaker 2: from your handicap using proper fitted clubs with Tom wish On.
Speaker 3: This is Golf Smarter Premium.
Speaker 2: Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to the Golf
Speaker 2: Smarter Podcast. Tom.
Speaker 1: Thanks very much, cred it's a pleasure to be back
Speaker 1: to talk about golf.
Speaker 2: We could talk about golf, we can talk about golf clubs,
Speaker 2: we can talk about custom club fitting. We can talk
Speaker 2: about the state of Actually we are going to talk
Speaker 2: about all of those things. Okay, how is the state
Speaker 2: of the golf club industry. Let's get right to it.
Speaker 2: How is the state of the industry from your perspective
Speaker 2: right now?
Speaker 1: Well, it's very interesting. You know, the industry's big major player,
Speaker 1: tailor Mate, took a gigantic hit last year. They were
Speaker 1: down like twenty nine percent in sales, you know, largely
Speaker 1: due to the fad of white driver heads being over
Speaker 1: so that went away from them, but also because you know,
Speaker 1: there's been a little bit of a backlash from some
Speaker 1: of the major retailers in golf that they're you know,
Speaker 1: not real happy with the way that the big giant
Speaker 1: companies have been bringing out new models every six months
Speaker 1: and how difficult that is to manage on a retail
Speaker 1: inventory standpoint, you know. So, you know, right now it's
Speaker 1: you know, up in the air. You know, it's hard
Speaker 1: to say exactly what's going to happen to the golf
Speaker 1: equipment industry. Participation in the game continues to sag, you
Speaker 1: know a little bit for all of the post recession
Speaker 1: reasons you know that are out there. Games expensive, takes
Speaker 1: too long to play. The millennials, you know, are not
Speaker 1: impressed with playing their father's game, so to speak. And
Speaker 1: so you know, we're living you know, with about five
Speaker 1: ten percent, well actually won that twenty percent fewer golfers
Speaker 1: and we had ten years ago, you know, with that,
Speaker 1: So you know, but the game is still the game.
Speaker 1: It's still the greatest game there is, and you know
Speaker 1: it still is something that you know is going to
Speaker 1: live forever though.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's interesting as we're talking right now,
Speaker 2: we're in day two of the Masters twenty fifteen and
Speaker 2: Jordan's speaf Is is kind of running away with things here.
Speaker 2: He's having another amazing round after yesterday's. Is is someone
Speaker 2: like a Jordan's Speef do you think? Is he the
Speaker 2: kind of character he does? He have the what it
Speaker 2: takes to be a person that will get the millennials
Speaker 2: back on the golf or to the golf course, you know,
Speaker 2: the way Tiger. You know, when Tiger was at his peak,
Speaker 2: everybody was building golf courses left and right, and everyone
Speaker 2: was happy, and we were coming out with new clubs
Speaker 2: every few weeks. And now you know, that kind of
Speaker 2: died away and everyone started leaving and everyone's waiting for
Speaker 2: the next Messiah. Could Jordan Speed be that character?
Speaker 1: Well, I think he can have influence on younger kids,
Speaker 1: you know, let's say twelve seventeen year olds, you know,
Speaker 1: to maybe get more into the game or start to
Speaker 1: play the game. But I'm not really sure. You know,
Speaker 1: among the millennials.
Speaker 2: He's too young, no, a different attention span.
Speaker 1: Let me put it that way, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: they're the kids, you know, they're the generation that's grown
Speaker 1: up going nuts. If they walk out the door without
Speaker 1: a smartphone in their pocket, you know, it rules their life.
Speaker 1: And you know, and from that, you know, most of
Speaker 1: the things that I think an awful lot of millennials
Speaker 1: do for pleasure and enjoyment are things that don't take
Speaker 1: them very long. You know, to do workouts, you know, cycling,
Speaker 1: you know that sort of thing. And to be into golf,
Speaker 1: you've got to make a long commitment, you know, for
Speaker 1: practicing to get to the point where the game can
Speaker 1: be enjoyable. And then when you go play the game,
Speaker 1: you know, it's you know, four or five hours if
Speaker 1: you're going to play eighteen holes plus cost. So you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I mean I had a discussion at
Speaker 1: one point with Jerry Tarti, the editor of Golf Digest,
Speaker 1: and and you know, I noted that Golf Digest has
Speaker 1: changed their look, you know, of their magazine to try
Speaker 1: to appeal more to the millennials. And my point with
Speaker 1: him was, well, that's fine among the millennials who already
Speaker 1: do play golf, but the biggest segment of our population
Speaker 1: that is not playing golf and appears to not want
Speaker 1: to have anything to do with the game are the millennials.
Speaker 1: So you know, you know, what about things that need
Speaker 1: to be done to try to attract those people to
Speaker 1: the game, to get them to start playing, you know,
Speaker 1: for it. And you know, I made the suggestion to him,
Speaker 1: you know, just tossing something out of you know, why
Speaker 1: don't all the big entities in the game who have money,
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour, the PGA of America, the Augusta National
Speaker 1: Golf Club, the United States Golf Association, you know, throw
Speaker 1: some money in the pot and start making some commercials
Speaker 1: to put on television which feature celebrities and stars, well
Speaker 1: known sports heroes who love and play the game, and
Speaker 1: get on the commercial and tell people this is why
Speaker 1: this game is so great and why you need to
Speaker 1: play it.
Speaker 2: You know, for that and you know, yeah, where's justin
Speaker 2: Timberlake when we need him?
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, things like that, you know, or any of
Speaker 1: the you know Steph Curry, you know in basketball, who's
Speaker 1: a great player.
Speaker 2: And oh is that right?
Speaker 1: Loves tremendedly you know for that. Yeah. I mean he's
Speaker 1: a three four handicap and plays extremely well.
Speaker 2: Did not know that? That's interesting? Yeah, he's uh, yeah,
Speaker 2: he's very special. What's what he's doing this year in basketball? Uh?
Speaker 2: Their attention span? You're absolutely right. They want to they
Speaker 2: want to be able to play well because they can
Speaker 2: do it on their video games. So why can't they
Speaker 2: just translate that onto the golf course. Why does it
Speaker 2: have to be so difficult?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you can play eighteen homes in a video
Speaker 1: game in a half an hour.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, exactly. You know, I live next to a
Speaker 2: golf course. We've talked about this because I Marine Country Club,
Speaker 2: which you your mom lives near here too, so you're
Speaker 2: familiar with the golf course. And just last week they
Speaker 2: they did an experiment. They had two pins on each
Speaker 2: green and one was a regulation size hole and the
Speaker 2: other one was a fifteen inch hole good for them
Speaker 2: and yeah, and they just as an experiment to see
Speaker 2: how people liked it to be able to get the
Speaker 2: kids out on the golf course with the family because
Speaker 2: it's a very family oriented country club, and the feedback
Speaker 2: they were getting was an hour faster to play and
Speaker 2: seven to ten strokes per per person was saved. Now,
Speaker 2: I don't think this is going to be the future
Speaker 2: of the game as far as tournament play, of course not.
Speaker 2: But for fun, why not.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, all of those things like that
Speaker 1: are okay, you know, I mean for a little bit
Speaker 1: of a boost to play. But at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, you know, for golf to continue to grow,
Speaker 1: the game has to attract people for what it brings
Speaker 1: and what it has always brought from day one. You know,
Speaker 1: with that, you know, a chance to be you against yourself,
Speaker 1: you against the golf course, to master a skill that
Speaker 1: it's difficult to master, you know, to be able to
Speaker 1: spend time with friends in a social environment where you're
Speaker 1: you know, you're also playing a game. And then the
Speaker 1: pure enjoyment of the fact that you know, all these
Speaker 1: different golf courses around the country and around the world,
Speaker 1: they're all different, they're beautiful examples of how we can
Speaker 1: shape land into you know, gorgeous agronomy. And it's fun
Speaker 1: to go out and play all the different kinds of
Speaker 1: courses out there. You know, those are the things that
Speaker 1: have to draw the people you know into the game
Speaker 1: to play, you know, play the game the way it's
Speaker 1: always meant to be played, you know, for that. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I welcome the Badiach Cup, of the fifteen
Speaker 1: inch Cup, you know, in that for you know, the
Speaker 1: occasional fun thing to get a few people out who
Speaker 1: may not have been coming out regularly. But it's not
Speaker 1: the answer for long term.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think I don't think so either. I
Speaker 2: don't think so either. But you know, even if there
Speaker 2: is a fifteen inch hole it and it saves you
Speaker 2: an hour and it saves you some strokes, hitting a
Speaker 2: golf ball, not putting, hitting a golf ball is still
Speaker 2: not an easy thing to do, no doing it well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, and that's it takes time to
Speaker 1: get to the point where you can hit it well
Speaker 1: enough that you can go out and have fun, right.
Speaker 2: Right, It takes years for it to be fun, because
Speaker 2: it's not really fun until you get good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, either that or else you play it strictly for
Speaker 1: the social side, which is tremendous, you know, and so
Speaker 1: regardless if you don't score well, you're out there with
Speaker 1: good friends, laughing and having a good time outside.
Speaker 2: Right, What can the equipment industry do? And I'm sure
Speaker 2: they would spend quadrillions of dollars, whether it be advertising
Speaker 2: or R and D. But what can they do to
Speaker 2: make it easier to hit a golf ball? Do you
Speaker 2: think there's something that is in their hands that would help.
Speaker 1: Well, there's nothing that can be done to get to
Speaker 1: the point where you hit you know, ninety eight percent
Speaker 1: of your shots in the air. That's you and your
Speaker 1: neural unpet system and proper instruction followed by practice, you know,
Speaker 1: to get to a point where you can make a
Speaker 1: good swing to hit the ball airporn, you know, as
Speaker 1: far as getting people a little bit more distance or
Speaker 1: hitting the ball a little straighter. You know, there are
Speaker 1: some people in the in the world golf industries who
Speaker 1: are starting to look at this and say, you know,
Speaker 1: for those people who strictly play for fun, who would
Speaker 1: never play in serious competition, why shouldn't we manufacture non
Speaker 1: conforming clubs? You know that would you know, just simply
Speaker 1: be out there to add to the fun in the game.
Speaker 1: Not that long ago, I think in the month of February,
Speaker 1: the Japan Golf Manufacturers Association came out with us with
Speaker 1: a statement saying that they were in favor of this. Okay,
Speaker 1: they got criticized heavily because, you know, one group of
Speaker 1: people said, well, the only reason that the Japan manufacturers
Speaker 1: want to make non conforming clubs is so they can
Speaker 1: sell more clubs and make more money. Okay, Well, there's
Speaker 1: another side of the coin, you know, where you know,
Speaker 1: there are apparently an awful lot of people over there
Speaker 1: who don't hit the ball as far as they would
Speaker 1: like to, who don't play in serious handicapped competition, and
Speaker 1: they feel that maybe this could keep that group of
Speaker 1: people more interested in the game, you know, for that So,
Speaker 1: you know, because we can design drivers that hit the
Speaker 1: ball ten fifteen yards further by exceeding the rule in
Speaker 1: the game for the coficient and restitution for the spring
Speaker 1: face capability of the face, we could also design shafts
Speaker 1: which self correct during the swing basically and could and
Speaker 1: ad and reduce the slice just you know, or hook
Speaker 1: depending on how the shaft is made and how it's
Speaker 1: installed into the head. You know, we also have you know,
Speaker 1: the aspects of what I work in every day, you know,
Speaker 1: professional custom fitting. So you know, if people can get
Speaker 1: into a situation where they understand that they're better off
Speaker 1: going to see a professional club fitter to be fit
Speaker 1: and you know, for their their clubs rather than buy
Speaker 1: them standard off the rack and big stores are online,
Speaker 1: that too, you know, can make a difference to help
Speaker 1: people you know, play better, score better, and enjoy the
Speaker 1: game more and then potentially keep coming back and playing.
Speaker 2: You talked about the Japanese companies that are suggesting why
Speaker 2: don't we make a a some clubs that are non conforming,
Speaker 2: that are against the rules, because these are for people
Speaker 2: who are just out there to have a good time.
Speaker 2: They are not going to necessarily post their score or
Speaker 2: get their you know, their gen number going. And then
Speaker 2: can you say people are like, oh, you're just in
Speaker 2: it to sell more clubs and make more money. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: and that's a problem for a company because why you know,
Speaker 2: I don't you know, I don't see that as being
Speaker 2: the issue, you know, I mean.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been in the golf equipment in se
Speaker 1: for a very long time now, and I'm very well
Speaker 1: aware of the fact that within the serious golfers that
Speaker 1: are out there, there's a definite faction who look at
Speaker 1: this possibility of non conforming equipment uh with great anger, condemnation,
Speaker 1: you know, and playing a simple label at cheating. Well, okay,
Speaker 1: it is cheating if you use it in you a
Speaker 1: real competition, even if that's anywhere from you know, your
Speaker 1: Saturday morning sweeps, playing for pro Shop credit, to the
Speaker 1: club championship, to the county Amateur, to the state amateur
Speaker 1: and on up. You shouldn't do that. You need to
Speaker 1: be playing with conforming golf clubs if you're playing that
Speaker 1: kind of competitive golf. But there's a whole bunch of people
Speaker 1: who you know, probably would never play in those things.
Speaker 1: And you know a number of people who simply want
Speaker 1: to go out and just hit it around, have fun,
Speaker 1: hit it a little bit better than they do right now,
Speaker 1: you know. For that. So you know, that's where the
Speaker 1: Japan Manufacturers Association is coming from. You know, my side
Speaker 1: of the coins a little different because I've watched how
Speaker 1: the whole business model of the golf equipment industry has
Speaker 1: evolved over the years, and the standard you know, the
Speaker 1: business model is that all the big golf companies go
Speaker 1: out and they do their engineering and they develop their
Speaker 1: new clubhead technology, and then they build their golf clubs.
Speaker 1: Uh so they're all same length, same lofts, same lie angles,
Speaker 1: same weighting, same grip size, same everything, so that they
Speaker 1: can be shipped into all the retail stores to more
Speaker 1: easily be sold off the rack. That's how you sell
Speaker 1: four hundred million dollars where the golf clubs a year.
Speaker 1: You can't do it if you're going to build one
Speaker 1: set at a time. I'm for one golfer at a time,
Speaker 1: each one custom fit. But the point still remains, golfers
Speaker 1: are as different as fingerpints. You know. We're all different
Speaker 1: in our size, our strength, our athletic ability, and especially
Speaker 1: in our swing characteristics. And that's you know, a situation
Speaker 1: where standard made clubs are not going to help every
Speaker 1: single golfer play to the best of their given ability.
Speaker 1: That's where custom fitting can you know, step in and
Speaker 1: help people you know, play better and enjoy it more
Speaker 1: and continue to play more.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I've been playing golf for getting getting up to
Speaker 2: twenty years now and I don't ever see myself playing
Speaker 2: in any sort of competition. I just that's not who
Speaker 2: I am. I love to play on the weekends with
Speaker 2: my friends, and if we put a couple dollars into
Speaker 2: a pot, you know, before the round, okay, I'll do that.
Speaker 2: But mostly I'm out there trying to beat myself each time,
Speaker 2: you know, just because that's the way golf is. You
Speaker 2: just know that, Oh I can do better. I want
Speaker 2: to got to do this again. I want to do
Speaker 2: it better. How close are we getting or will we
Speaker 2: ever get to the point where there's two sets of
Speaker 2: rules for tournament play and for everybody else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's interesting. I don't think we're anywhere near
Speaker 1: close to that yet, but there certainly are who discussed that.
Speaker 1: You know, it goes on in other sports, you know
Speaker 1: out there. You know, baseball has metal bats in you know.
Speaker 2: In college, right school college.
Speaker 1: You know, wood bats in the major leagues. You know
Speaker 1: out there, you know, there are some people who feel
Speaker 1: that because of the extreme distance that the tour players
Speaker 1: hit the ball now, that this is going to render
Speaker 1: a lot of the classic golf courses obsolete. There are
Speaker 1: only so many of those courses who can keep lengthening.
Speaker 1: You know, their their golf courses, you know, to accommodate
Speaker 1: you know, guys with one hundred and twenty five miles
Speaker 1: an hour clubhead speed. You know, you hit it three
Speaker 1: hundred and forty yards. You know, out there, the game
Speaker 1: has evolved, you know. I mean you go back to
Speaker 1: the to the year nineteen hundred, okay, and the game
Speaker 1: converted from a gut of purchare golf ball to a
Speaker 1: rubber core wound ball, and immediately everybody picked up twenty
Speaker 1: five or thirty yards, and those golf courses that were
Speaker 1: you know existing before this were rendered obsolete. Well, new
Speaker 1: golf courses were built, you know, that were longer to
Speaker 1: accommodate the new ball and all that, and so you know,
Speaker 1: the game survived that here. Now maybe because of the
Speaker 1: economic reasons, it's not quite feasible to think that we're
Speaker 1: going to go out and build a whole new stable
Speaker 1: of golf courses that all could be eight thousand yards long,
Speaker 1: so that we could, you know, so that they could
Speaker 1: host a PGA Tour event and you'd still see players
Speaker 1: hitting you know, three iron into a power four hole. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that may be unrealistic, you know, out there. But you know,
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's just all part of the evolution
Speaker 1: of the game. We just have to get used to
Speaker 1: the fact that there are a lot better golf athletes
Speaker 1: now and that these guys out there all have an
Speaker 1: average driver clubhead speed it's ten miles an hour higher
Speaker 1: than it was twenty five years ago. Because they're better
Speaker 1: golf athletes, they know how to train, you know, to
Speaker 1: you know, maximize their you know, their swing speed out there.
Speaker 1: That's just all part of it.
Speaker 2: So interesting. What why do we well when when they
Speaker 2: when they made that change in the ball around the
Speaker 2: turn of the century, there how much resistance was that too?
Speaker 2: You know, wait, that's wrong. We shouldn't be you know,
Speaker 2: like we're getting the resistance now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was kind of funny. You know. I'm, of course,
Speaker 1: I'm not old enough to have lived for that, but
Speaker 1: you know, I haven't done and of research to read
Speaker 1: through all of my old collections of magazines from that
Speaker 1: era to know if there was a protest to it.
Speaker 1: I'm not aware that there was. You know, at the
Speaker 1: same token, there was definitely a protest. When the steel
Speaker 1: shaft was invented, the game's ruling bodies were not sure
Speaker 1: they wanted to to rule, you know, to accept that
Speaker 1: and rule the steel shaft to be conforming, you know.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean there's evidence from the distant past
Speaker 1: in the evolution of the game that there has been
Speaker 1: resistance to change in the equipment if it was felt
Speaker 1: that it would make the game replace skill with technology.
Speaker 2: Is the term, you know, is that the great fear?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's that's the us GAS credo. You know,
Speaker 1: when they when they look at brand new forms of equipment,
Speaker 1: you know, that are submitted to them for approval. Not
Speaker 1: everything that may be submitted to them may be covered
Speaker 1: under an express current rule. So the U s g
Speaker 1: A has always had a provide so to where they
Speaker 1: could rule something to be non conforming if they felt
Speaker 1: it was not in the best interests of the game,
Speaker 1: or if they felt it was an example of technology
Speaker 1: replacing the skill with which you know, to play the game.
Speaker 1: You know, right now we're at a point we're golf
Speaker 1: club designed where we're maxed out. We can't design clubheads
Speaker 1: to hit the ball any farther or hit the ball
Speaker 1: any straighter than they do right now, because we've reached
Speaker 1: the brick wall of technology part of that brick wall
Speaker 1: are some of the rules of the USGA which limit performance.
Speaker 1: We have a limit on the coefficient restitution, the spring
Speaker 1: face capability. You know, the clubhead clubheads have been you know,
Speaker 1: at this cor limit for quite some time now, you know,
Speaker 1: with that, and you know now that we're you know,
Speaker 1: we've we're several years into the development of higher CEO
Speaker 1: are fairway woods and hybrids and irons, so those are
Speaker 1: now reaching their brick wall of potential performance. The only
Speaker 1: way you know, companies can offer golf clubs off the
Speaker 1: rack that hit the ball further is to keep lowering
Speaker 1: the loft angles on the clubheads. And that too is
Speaker 1: going to have a limit because each time you keep
Speaker 1: lowering the loft of the clubheads, you've now rendered one
Speaker 1: more club as unhittable for the majority of golfers because
Speaker 1: it now has too little loft for the average players
Speaker 1: to hit consistently. You know, well, you know for that,
Speaker 1: so you know, at this point, we are really at
Speaker 1: this limit. Even though marketing is going to keep trying
Speaker 1: to convince golfers that the next design is better and
Speaker 1: hits it further. You know, it's you know, it's the
Speaker 1: way marketing goes to try and generate demand. In reality,
Speaker 1: because the vast majority of golfers have always bought their
Speaker 1: golf clubs standard off the rack in golf stores, there
Speaker 1: is one technology left out there that the vast majority
Speaker 1: of golfers have never been exposed to, in which for
Speaker 1: at least seventy seventy five percent of all golfers could
Speaker 1: overnight send them ount with three to ten shots lower score.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm talking about is full SPEC's professional
Speaker 1: club fitting, where the golfer is analyzed by a true
Speaker 1: professional club fitter who then custom builds their golf clubs
Speaker 1: one at a time for every single one of the
Speaker 1: twelve key club fitting specifications that make up a golf club.
Speaker 1: You know, most people have never had the chance to
Speaker 1: go work with a professional club fitter. You know, Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: the big companies are marketing that their clubs can be
Speaker 1: custom fit by just walking into the big golf stores,
Speaker 1: and that's just not true. You know, what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: Custom club fitting is the same thing as the way
Speaker 1: a suit is made by a tailor, every single specification
Speaker 1: customized to that golfer and his size, strength, athletic ability,
Speaker 1: and swing characteristics. Now there's a bunch of golfers out
Speaker 1: there who go, oh, hogwash, I'm not good enough for
Speaker 1: custom fitting to matter. I'm only a sixteen handicap. If
Speaker 1: I ever get good and start breaking eighty, then I'll
Speaker 1: think about custom fitting, because then it'll matter. That's one
Speaker 1: of the biggest myths in the golf equipment industry, and
Speaker 1: it is so wrong. It is, in fact the opposite
Speaker 1: the average players, the golfers who shoot low eighties and
Speaker 1: higher up to one hundred. These are the people for
Speaker 1: whom professional club fitting will help the most. The people
Speaker 1: who are single digit and low single digit handicappers, they're
Speaker 1: really good because they're better golf athletes who've learned better
Speaker 1: swing fundamentals. Thus, over the years, as they go out
Speaker 1: and try different clubs, they find what works for them,
Speaker 1: they self fit themselves. So professional fitting for like a
Speaker 1: two handicapper, about the o only thing you're going to
Speaker 1: achieve is a sense of confidence in the golfer that
Speaker 1: he now knows his club's are right for him. But
Speaker 1: professional club fitting for someone who's eighteen or a twenty
Speaker 1: six handicap most definitely can get them measurable improvement overnight.
Speaker 1: Because more than likely the standard made clubs that they
Speaker 1: bought off the rack are preventing them from being able
Speaker 1: to play to the best of their ability. You know.
Speaker 1: But the problem is is that professional club fitting isn't marketed.
Speaker 1: You know. The entities who work within, you know, the
Speaker 1: professional club fitting arena just they're not big enough. They
Speaker 1: just don't have the money and the resources to go
Speaker 1: out there and shout this message to the millions of
Speaker 1: golfers that there is a better way, you know, for
Speaker 1: them to get their golf clubs so that they could
Speaker 1: play better and enjoy the game more.
Speaker 2: This is so fascinating to me that you say that
Speaker 2: it's important for them, that it will help their game.
Speaker 2: But the amateurs that I talk to regularly, what they
Speaker 2: say is, I don't want to get fit now because
Speaker 2: I'm going to take a lesson or two and then
Speaker 2: my swing's going to change, and then the clubs will
Speaker 2: be obsolete at that point, true or fallow.
Speaker 1: Well, that's okay, that's that's a noble thought, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, here's forty years of experiencing golf. The number
Speaker 1: of golfers who think about taking lessons and working their
Speaker 1: tail off to really make major swing changes to really improve.
Speaker 1: That's great if you can do it, but the vast
Speaker 1: majority of people never get around to it. You know,
Speaker 1: it's best way plans of mice and men. Sure you know,
Speaker 1: you know, so you know this is one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why the average golfer handicap never goes down. You know,
Speaker 1: they're just you know, there are people who would love
Speaker 1: to take lessons. They may start and because they don't
Speaker 1: get an instant success or because they don't have four
Speaker 1: or five days a week to hit ball, you know,
Speaker 1: under proper supervision to groop the new swing change, the
Speaker 1: lesson improvement doesn't happen, you know, for them. But you know,
Speaker 1: when we teach club fitters, you know the interaction you know,
Speaker 1: with golfers. One of the things we teach them is
Speaker 1: right when they start with the golfer, to ask the golfer.
Speaker 1: You know, a whole number of questions, but one of
Speaker 1: them is are you presently taking lessons? If so, how
Speaker 1: much are you working on making your swing changes? And
Speaker 1: are you definitely starting to see these swing changes occur
Speaker 1: to the point where you're confident that you will make
Speaker 1: these swing changes from the lessons you're taking okay. If
Speaker 1: they answer yeah, yes, then you fit the clubs for
Speaker 1: how they're going to be, or you tell them to
Speaker 1: come back after you feel and after they feel that
Speaker 1: they have grouped the new swing characteristics. But if you
Speaker 1: get any bit of doubt in there, you know that
Speaker 1: the golfer is not going to follow through with this,
Speaker 1: You know deep commitment that it takes to really be
Speaker 1: taking lessons and improving through practice. Then you fit the
Speaker 1: clubs for how they are now you know, And that's
Speaker 1: how it's done at the end of the day. Here's
Speaker 1: the things like if you do have custom fit clubs
Speaker 1: and then let's say you go out and take lessons,
Speaker 1: here are the things that have to happen before those
Speaker 1: clubs don't fit you anymore. One, if you gain more
Speaker 1: than ten miles an hour in club headspeed, okay, then
Speaker 1: your chaft flexes probably need to be stiffer. Two, if
Speaker 1: you all of a sudden somehow increase your tempo or
Speaker 1: your swing aggressiveness, potentially at this point, the weight of
Speaker 1: your golf clubs may need to be heavier than what
Speaker 1: they were before. The other elements in there, you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of lengths, lie angles, loft angles, no, you know,
Speaker 1: they you know, they can stay the same even if
Speaker 1: you do make major swing improvements. You know for this,
Speaker 1: so you know, it's a little bit of a misnumber
Speaker 1: when somebody says, well, I'm going to be taking and
Speaker 1: so I don't want to be fitting out. Okay, fine,
Speaker 1: go do it. And if you do find you you know,
Speaker 1: get through it and you make swing changes, great, then
Speaker 1: go get custom fit. But because the vast majorities don't,
Speaker 1: you know, it's really a situation where go in now
Speaker 1: with your swing as it is now. The professional club
Speaker 1: fitter will see all these things. And the way that
Speaker 1: you will improve is you will if you're fit properly.
Speaker 1: The new clubs are going to reduce the severity and
Speaker 1: the frequency of your worst shots. So what really good
Speaker 1: club fitting does. It doesn't sure you and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden you hit the ball straight. And further, it
Speaker 1: reduces the severity and the frequencies of your bad shots,
Speaker 1: so you're in play more often, you have more open
Speaker 1: shots to the greens, and the percentage of scoring better
Speaker 1: improves as a result from that. You know, so most people,
Speaker 1: you know, those who shoot between low eighties and hundred
Speaker 1: from proper club fitting if they've been playing with standard
Speaker 1: clubs off the rack, it's extremely common to see improvements
Speaker 1: of three to ten shots from professional club hitting.
Speaker 2: That's amazing, all right, So let's paint this scenario. You
Speaker 2: got a thirty year old guy who has recently fallen
Speaker 2: in love with the game and now he wants to
Speaker 2: play more. Except he's married, he travels for work, he
Speaker 2: doesn't get a lot of time to practice. He did
Speaker 2: take a lesson and learned a couple of things, but
Speaker 2: doesn't have time to do that again, and just wants
Speaker 2: to get back on the golf course. You're saying that
Speaker 2: if he just with that kind of game and that
Speaker 2: kind of commitment, that if he goes and has a
Speaker 2: custom club fitter watch him swing, work with him, and
Speaker 2: develop a set of clubs for them, that they're going
Speaker 2: to cut seven to ten strokes off and they can
Speaker 2: hold on to those clubs for a long time and
Speaker 2: have success with them.
Speaker 1: Yep, absolutely happens every day, you know, with the you know,
Speaker 1: the professional club fitters out there. You know, it doesn't
Speaker 1: happen to millions, It happens to thousands, you know, because
Speaker 1: professional club fitting is just so unknown.
Speaker 2: When when you talk about how the courses they need
Speaker 2: to now they're going to need to be eight thousand yards.
Speaker 2: But there are no courses being built, are there? No?
Speaker 1: Now there are more courses closing that are than our
Speaker 1: opening each year because of the drop in participation of
Speaker 1: the game that you know the thing. We just want
Speaker 1: to try and keep as many courses alive as possible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So what are these what are club makers?
Speaker 2: The major manufacturers, the ones that send just big boxes
Speaker 2: and say these will all fit for you. What are
Speaker 2: they going to do next? You can't They're going to
Speaker 2: paint the heads red and green and say they know what,
Speaker 2: the white didn't work for tailor made as you opened
Speaker 2: up with, or it works for a while, you know, I.
Speaker 1: Mean there's still things being pushed out there. You know that,
Speaker 1: like for for example, right now, one of the current
Speaker 1: technologies a lot of the companies are all following is
Speaker 1: putting a slot into the heads, most frequently done on
Speaker 1: the sole of the club, very close to the out
Speaker 1: of the face. And the idea that they're getting at
Speaker 1: is to say, if you hit the you know, if
Speaker 1: you hit the ball, you know that slot flexes so
Speaker 1: you get more spring face. You know, you get better
Speaker 1: ball street and distance. Okay, the problem is that, you know,
Speaker 1: you can't exceed the USGA CR limit of eight point thirty.
Speaker 1: You know, so most of the companies have already been
Speaker 1: designing heads with thin faces made from high strength alloys,
Speaker 1: which achieve as high have a CR as you possibly can.
Speaker 1: And not only that, when you make a thin face club,
Speaker 1: you can hit it low on the face, you can
Speaker 1: hit it on the heel side, the tow side, the
Speaker 1: high side. The face is still going to get some
Speaker 1: flexing to get you a little bit more distance with
Speaker 1: a slot that only exists on the bottom of the
Speaker 1: golf club. What if you hit it towards a toe
Speaker 1: higher on the face, there's no slot over there, so
Speaker 1: the face camplex as much in these different areas. So,
Speaker 1: you know, here's an example of just how marketing invisible
Speaker 1: technology to the eye can fool someone. And then, oh,
Speaker 1: by the way, they're still bought off the rack, so
Speaker 1: they're probably too long, the wrong weight, the wrong face angle,
Speaker 1: potentially the wrong loft, the wrong light angle, wrong grip size,
Speaker 1: you know, and there you go, they don't fit.
Speaker 2: You know, from that standpoint, this is something that you
Speaker 2: and I talk about almost every time. But I continue
Speaker 2: to get questions like this, and that is the off
Speaker 2: the shelf driver that they're buying every three years, which
Speaker 2: isn't necessary with the longer shaft. Now, if I remember correctly,
Speaker 2: you're an advocate of shorter shafts for a driver for
Speaker 2: greater accuracy.
Speaker 1: Yep, there's really a definite adage. There's a definite old
Speaker 1: adage that clubfitters learned right away when they get into
Speaker 1: the field goes like this. The longer the length of
Speaker 1: the club, the lower the loft of the club, the
Speaker 1: stiffer the shaft in the club, and the heavier the
Speaker 1: weight of the club, the harder the club will be
Speaker 1: to hit. Okay, with a driver, you've got low loft
Speaker 1: and you've got longer length, two things going against you.
Speaker 1: The other thing, it's a fact, you know, the longer
Speaker 1: the length of the driver, the more stress or load
Speaker 1: it puts on your swing, the more it can break
Speaker 1: down weak elements in your swing to make you less consistent.
Speaker 1: There was no reason whatsoever the drivers needed to be
Speaker 1: increased in length from the forty three inches they were
Speaker 1: for decades to the point of they are today between
Speaker 1: forty five and forty six inches in length. The reason
Speaker 1: it was done was because all the companies know that
Speaker 1: distance or the potential for distance, sells more golf clubs
Speaker 1: than any other factor in the go equipment history, and
Speaker 1: so people are associated with the thought longer length means
Speaker 1: higher club head speed, which means more distance. Problem means
Speaker 1: it's not true for all golfers, and it's not true
Speaker 1: for the majority of golfers. You have to have a
Speaker 1: lader to very late unhinging of the risk coock angle
Speaker 1: on the downswing before a longer length can turn into
Speaker 1: higher clubhead speed. But even for those people who do
Speaker 1: have a late release, longer length puts more load on
Speaker 1: stress on the swing, and so the longer the length,
Speaker 1: the higher the percentage of off center hits will be.
Speaker 1: You miss the center of the face of your driver
Speaker 1: by a half inch, you've lost five percent of your
Speaker 1: total distance. You miss that center of the face by
Speaker 1: one inch, you've lost ten percent of your total distance potential.
Speaker 1: So this is the double edged sword and the misinformation
Speaker 1: that the long driver lengths are perpetuating, and I think
Speaker 1: probably as I mentioned before, one of the biggest ways
Speaker 1: to try right have proved the golfers that these off
Speaker 1: the rack forty five to forty six inch driver lengths
Speaker 1: are not right for them? Is that? For a very
Speaker 1: long time now, the average driver length on the PGA
Speaker 1: Tour has been forty four and a half inches, not
Speaker 1: the forty five to forty six inches that average golfers
Speaker 1: are being told is right for them. Why did the
Speaker 1: tour players play with shorter length drivers, even as good
Speaker 1: as they are, because they know they can't control the
Speaker 1: longer length driver, you know, as well as they can,
Speaker 1: you know, one that's shorter, it's no different for the
Speaker 1: average player. And it's even more so. And I can't
Speaker 1: tell you how many golfers have been fit with forty
Speaker 1: three and a half to forty four inch long drivers
Speaker 1: and walked away with an immediate improvement in their t
Speaker 1: shot game without losing a single yard. And in fact,
Speaker 1: for me, they gain distance because now they're hitting the
Speaker 1: ball more consistently on center and not losing distance from
Speaker 1: the off center hit, you know, for this, So I mean,
Speaker 1: if nothing else, you know, for most average players, if
Speaker 1: they just go get fit with a shorter driver that
Speaker 1: has loft, which is better fit to their clubhead speed,
Speaker 1: and which has a face angle which will counteract their
Speaker 1: tendency to slice the ball or hook it. You know,
Speaker 1: the miles a hit than where they would have been
Speaker 1: just trying to buy something off the wrap.
Speaker 2: That is so interesting. It's amazing how many myths are
Speaker 2: out there about what you should have in your bag.
Speaker 2: The other issue that always comes up in my conversations
Speaker 2: with people is, oh, man, a custom club fitter, it's
Speaker 2: going to be so much more expensive than if I
Speaker 2: just buy something over at the local retail store.
Speaker 1: And that's not true really, you know, because for one thing,
Speaker 1: the custom club fitters are all under marketed. You know,
Speaker 1: very few people know they exist. Many custom club fitters,
Speaker 1: you know, they have a hard time going to living
Speaker 1: because they don't have enough customers because not very many
Speaker 1: people know about them. And so you're going to find
Speaker 1: that the vast majority of professional custom club fitters are
Speaker 1: never going to end up charging you any more for
Speaker 1: your golf clubs than what you would have paid when
Speaker 1: you walked into a big box store and bought a
Speaker 1: big brand name club off the rap.
Speaker 2: Okay, Tom, you've just given us an amazing lesson on
Speaker 2: the value of custom club fitters and why we should
Speaker 2: really seek one out. Please, give us a tip on
Speaker 2: how to find a custom club fitter fed you know.
Speaker 1: For those who are interested in professional club fitting. You know,
Speaker 1: it is a buyer beware market. These guys, you know,
Speaker 1: are sometimes hard to find, so let me give you
Speaker 1: a little tip on how to find a good professional
Speaker 1: club fitter. Okay, go to Google, Okay, and in Google,
Speaker 1: you know, search for the Association of Golf Club Fitting
Speaker 1: Professionals AGCP club Fitter or search for the International Clubmaker's
Speaker 1: Guild ICG Golf Clubfitter. Both of these are the professional
Speaker 1: organizations of serious professional clubfitters. On their sites, they both
Speaker 1: have search engines so that you can go in there
Speaker 1: and look to see who among the AGCP club fitters
Speaker 1: and the ICG club hitters are close to your area.
Speaker 1: Both of these professional club fitting organizations have certification programs
Speaker 1: just like a Mister Good Ranch for mechanics, So if
Speaker 1: you find an AGCP clubfitter or an ICG clubmaker near you,
Speaker 1: they will be good. They will know what they are
Speaker 1: doing and you will get a good fit. My company,
Speaker 1: we screen the club fitters that we work with, so
Speaker 1: if people were to go to our website, which is
Speaker 1: wish on golf dot com Right in the middle of
Speaker 1: the homepage is a find a Clubfitter locator search tool.
Speaker 1: Click on that, put in your town, state, country, and
Speaker 1: will come. If we have a screened club fitter in
Speaker 1: your area, you'll find it right there. So those are
Speaker 1: your best options right now. I hate to be critical,
Speaker 1: but you're not going to be professionally custom fit. When
Speaker 1: you go into a big box retail store, it doesn't
Speaker 1: happen