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Speaker 1: If you want to get the show early and ad free,

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There you can choose from where you wish to support me.

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Now listen very carefully. I've had some people ask me

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about this, even though I think on the last ad

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I stated it pretty clearly. If you want an RSS feed,

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dot com. You'll see all the ways that you can

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support me there. And I just want to thank everyone.

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It's because of you that I can put out the

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amount of material that I do. I can do what

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I'm doing with doctor Johnson on two hundred Years Together

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and everything else, the things that Thomas and I are

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doing together on condinal philosophy, it's all because of you.

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And yeah, I mean, I'll never be able to thank

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you enough.

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Speaker 2: So thank you.

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Speaker 1: The pekan Yonashow dot com. Everything's there. I want to

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welcome everyone back to the Peking Yona Show, Kurt from

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Anelopill is back.

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Speaker 3: How are you doing, Kirk, Hey, I'm doing well. Thanks

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for having me back on.

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Speaker 2: Awesome. Awesome.

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Speaker 1: If Kurt from Anelope Pill is here, or anyone from

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Aneloe Pill is on the show, we're probably going to

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be talking about one of the amazing books that you

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published that you translate very often, and you know, books

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that people are forgotten about. So I asked you to

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come on and talk about a book of Mussolini's speeches

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that you that Anlo Pill put out called Rise and Fight,

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And these are speeches from the period of from nineteen

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forty three to nineteen forty five, So just jumping right in,

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why speeches from this time for him?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think we figured we wanted to do something

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with Mussolani. He's sort of underappreciated historically, often just sort

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of becomes the butt of the joke about Italy's performance

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in Second World War. But of course he did sort

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of do it first, and the National Socialists in Germany

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took a lot of cues from him, took a lot

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of value from the things that he had done in

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the example that he had set and in terms of

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why specifically this period. We found this existing publication in

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Italian and we just kind of liked the idea of it.

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The period of the war that took place in Italy

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is also quite often overlooked in favor of either the

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Eastern Front or the sort of D Day and post

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D Day fighting in Western Europe. But the fighting in

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Italy was also really quite interesting and quite difficult for

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all the parties involved, mostly himself. Of course, He's basically

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betrayed by the Royalists, by army officers, and even by

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members of his own Fascist party, and there was of

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course the well known story of the daring mountaintop rescue

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by German paratroopers and Otto Skorzeny and some members of

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the SS.

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Speaker 2: After that, Mussolini.

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Speaker 3: Is sort of whisked off to I believe to Vienna

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first and then returns as the leader of a new

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Italian government in the North under German backing the Italian

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Social Republic. And long story short, the reason that this

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period is interesting is because this is the first time

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that Mussolini and the loyal Fascists really get to do

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all the things that they wanted to do. They get

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to set up the audiological apparatus of their new state

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without the sort of dead weight of these conservative army

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officers and the monarchy and all of these other sort

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of relics of Italy's liberal unification.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems he comes out of the comes out

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of prison just ready to just raring to go. You

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mentioned something about how basically he he becomes a punchline

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a lot for a lot that happened. And you know

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what I will always remember, and you know he should

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be remembered for, is that he I mean, he was

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one of the reasons why the Nationalists won in Spain. Yeah,

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he sent people to fight, he sent planes, he did,

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he did what he could and that can't go that

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can't go unnoticed in you know, the fight against Bolshevism

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on the continent.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, And that's another thing it's often forgotten. Everyone remembers,

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you know, the Condor Legion, the German forces that were

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sent over and uh, the German Air Force was involved,

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and obviously it was a sort of a testing ground

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for the Panzer forces. But Italy, if I'm if I'm

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not mistaken, contributed the lion's share of the the manpower

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in terms of foreign volunteers. Far more than the Germans did,

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and I believe they were the first to do so

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as well.

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Speaker 1: Right, yes, yes, And it was his planes that were

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brought the Army of Africa over from from Morocco. You yeah,

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a very important role in keeping the Southern Peninsula Bolshevik free.

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If they if if the Nationalist would have lost that war,

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or there's no telling what would have happened if Stalin

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would have gotten his invasion prior to Barbarossa, which you know,

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if if you read Hoffman and you read sub Off,

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you know that that's what he was planning. So let's

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jump to this. He he's definitely comes out and reaffirms

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his his commitment to the Tripartheide Pact, and so much

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so he talks about he does a radio message talking

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about Japan's entry of the war this December nineteen forty three.

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So I think in a time when a lot of

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people think that Italy and that Mussolini had they were

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told and court history tells us that he had basically

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given up, he came out a defeated man. No, that's

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not that's not nearly true. He came out ready to

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ready to double down in the commitment that he.

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Speaker 3: Made absolutely, and obviously there are a lot of problems

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that they had to work through in terms of trying

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to stand up some sort of Italian army to fight

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alongside the Germans in the wake of the surrendered by

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the Royalist government. But they did manage to raise a

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few solid divisions of troops and committed to the fighting

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in at least an appreciable way. There are some some

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famous units, the San Marco Marines, for example, are mentioned

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in here, the Decima m A s. They're the sort

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of famous naval commandos. So they did continue fighting under

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Mussolini's leadership in with the Northern government that he set

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up in Milan.

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Speaker 1: And he really stretches revolutionary optimism and vitality in the

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social republic. You many would think that by this point

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his his commitment to fascism as a vital and dynamic

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force would would start to wane, But no, he's he's

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telling people to double down. He calls on all Italians

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to persevere in the face of adversity and encourages unwavering

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loyalty to the axis cause.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and there's there are a lot of cases of

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really determined resistance even by everyday civilians. Especially in some

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of these northern cities, I believe. At one point in

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one of these addresses, he he notes that when the

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Allies advanced into Florence, he credits the civilian population with

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a lot of feats of resistance, including just sniper fire

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in the cities, just notes that the Allies are not

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in fact being received as liberators, as is the sort

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of common court history narrative, but that many Italians were

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not ready to simply roll over as the as the

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king and his government had.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the the commitment to keep troops training, even training,

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you know, especially training with with the Germans as as

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elite defenders of the fascist cause. You know, he holds

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he once again is just holding on to the ideology

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that you know, it's going to be steadfast, and he

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I mean, I guess the question is, is you know

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by forty four when you read German accounts it's.

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Speaker 2: Victory.

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Speaker 1: Is you have different factions who were questioning victory. And

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it seems like Mussolini didn't. He wasn't at least convinced

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that they were they were going to lose, especially after

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the occupation, the German occupation of Rome, as as liberators

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from the allies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's.

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Speaker 3: The situation on the ground certainly wasn't looking good for

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them at this point, and in forty three, I think

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it's it's not irrational to think that there was a

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way that they could win or at least not lose,

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fighting fighting a defensive war. By forty four, it's pretty

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clearly hopeless, especially by late forty four, in a wake

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of some pretty heavy well, of course, the D Day

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landings and the destruction of a large amount of German

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forces in the Filet's pocket and then in the East

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with the Soviet advance and in Operation Bagrassian basically wiping

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out an entire German army group. It's it's pretty desperate,

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And of course it's hard to know exactly Mussolini's private

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thoughts on the matter, but I think that he felt

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that they had to fight for their cause, even if

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just for for history, for posterity, even if the military

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situation itself was hopeless. They couldn't or or he couldn't

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accept the shame of surrendering before it was well and

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truly over.

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Speaker 1: When there is the new radicalism that's like suggested by

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these speeches, Even when he he knows it's over. I mean,

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he's he's still going on and preaching against the annihilation

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of the parasitic plutocracy, the struggle against you, sirious capitalism

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in favor of a rising labor state. Yeah, I mean,

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I guess the question is is what you mentioned, is

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is this just a propaganda to keep people energized, or

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I mean, is he bringing these things up at the

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time just that's just what it seems to be. It

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seems to be the rallying cry that's existed all along,

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and just to keep people fighting to, you know, to.

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Speaker 2: In some hope.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've always felt that if they accomplished anything by

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by their resistance sort of to the bitter end, both

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in Italy and in Germany and a number of other

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European states that remained with the access to the end,

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it's that we're still talking about them, and and we

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still find these causes inspirational, in large part precisely because

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of how far these men were willing to go uh

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in in their their resistance, in their their commitment to

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those ideals.

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Speaker 2: I do.

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Speaker 3: I think that's an important part of of Well.

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Speaker 2: I think it must have weighed on his mind. Right.

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Speaker 3: He might not say as much publicly in these speeches,

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but I think it must have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's come it's come out in in subsequent years,

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that the in late years that you know, one of

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the reasons why the Germans fought to the to the

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last at Berlin was a gay of a chance for

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any German citizens who wanted to get west and get

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away from the get away from the Bolshevik army that

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they could. That doesn't seem to it doesn't seem to

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be the same as far as you know, what was

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you know, what was eventually going to happen in Italy.

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I would have to assume by this point Mussolini had

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understood that understood what his fate was.

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Speaker 2: Oh for sure. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It almost makes it more impressive that there was as

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much resistance in Italy because the Italians were not being

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threatened with the same sort of destruction of their people

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that the Germans were being threatened with. And of course

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not only from the Soviets, but there was also and

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I forget exactly when when it came out in the

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German press, but they had gotten wind of the Morgenthile plan.

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It was a big reason for resistance and the Goebbel's

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propaganda ministry made a huge deal out of that, but

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that was only pointed at Germany and not in Italy.

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And yet the Italians continue to resist all the same,

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and I think in large part because of Mussolini's example,

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his commitment to the cause, refusal to sort of acknowledge

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the possibility of defeat.

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Speaker 1: What do you think the last thing legacy is of this?

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I mean you've already mentioned that so much for this rhetoric,

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and I don't say that, I don't call it rhetoric punitively.

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It's important that every once in a while, somebody on

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social media will post up a picture of you know,

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Mussolini hung upside down, and it'll be like somebody who

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thinks they're a right winger, and I'll be like, you

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know that people who did that, or just the forebearers

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of the people who are transing kids now, right, yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean they would do the same thing to you, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I mean they just I think that's the

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problem is is that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I also think that like fascism in Italy is

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maybe not as something that like the average American can

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look at and see as clearly as something to be

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like Hey, that is something that I might be interested

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in as the person who looks at national socialism and

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is like, well, I mean that seems to be more

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European more where we come from. It may not be

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the Anglo Saxon tradition that we're taught, but I mean

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I can look at it and I can be like, oh, well,

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you know, I can see exactly what they what they

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were doing there where. Italy also seems to be a

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little more I mean, what's a word exotic or even.

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Speaker 3: A little bit backwards, even perhaps Median, Yeah, a little

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too Mediterranean, maybe a little too a little too uh

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there's a word ethnic? Yeah, yeah, I think it's I

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think you're right. I think it's a lot easier for

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people to see to see themselves in in the the

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uniquely German manifestation it is. It's just a little bit

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closer to the sort of Northern European uh ethos and esthetic.

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But I also think in large part is because people

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don't really know that much about Italian fascism or or mussolane,

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which is of course something that we're trying to remedy here.

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But you know, you turn on the history channel, how

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much are you going to see about Moussolny that isn't

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isn't sort of, like I said, making him the butt

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of the joke about Italian incompetence in the war, or

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or portraying him as as sort of Hitler's hanger on

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his sidekick, right that it's often how he sort of

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thought of is Hitler's sidekick. But people really underestimate the

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contributions that the Italian fascists made. We've also we've published

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some other stuff from what was sort of a precursor

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movement to fascism, the whole futurist sphere, Filippo Marinetti and

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oh goodness, what's his name, the guy who took over Fiame,

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Gabriel de Nuncio.

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Speaker 2: That's it. Geez.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we've actually done one of the guys that's been

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on to talk about doing an episode.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and all of this stuff is it's really a

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lot more interesting and a lot more meaningful than people

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give it credit for.

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Speaker 2: Now, I'll say, I don't.

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Speaker 3: I do think that there are some people out there

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in the right wing sphere who make too much of

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the difference between fascism and national socialism as if they

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are sort of inimical in some way, or that they

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have a fundamental ideological disagreement. I don't think so. I

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think that they are part of the same movement, part

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of the same fundamental alignment in like ninety eight percent

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of ways. And you can see definitely even in Moslny's

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rhetoric in this book. By the forties, Italian fascism, and

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especially the fascism that takes place in the Social Republic

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is much more influenced by national socialism in some of

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ideological prescriptions. But far from being a deviation from earlier fascism,

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I think it's the natural evolution of it. It is

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actually a more pure form of what Mussolny and the

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fascists in Italy set out to do.

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Speaker 2: In the first place.

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Speaker 3: The word stymied in a lot of respect by the

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need to accommodate the old guard, the monarchists, the conservatives,

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who had somewhat made their peace with the fascist movement

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but remained a political power block within Italy that had

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to be had to be reckoned with. Of course, Hitler

300
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in thirty three takes sort of the opposite tack. When

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he gets brought into the coalition with the other conservative parties.

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He just seizes power. He excludes them. He says, thanks

303
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for inviting me. Now all of you get out were

304
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running things here, which is probably what the Italian fascists

305
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should have done in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting. I've told many people have that I've

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talked to that have read Marx and understand Marx. I

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think most people who read Marks don't understand Marx. I

309
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think even people who call themselves Marxists or communists don't

310
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understand Marx. I hate to say, but you know people

311
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who are like, Okay, I read this and it makes sense.

312
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The criticisms makes sense, but obviously the prescription is uh,

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you know, it is insane, it's anti human. And I've

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told many people I said, well, after you read Marx,

315
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read the Manifesto of the Fastiss Fascist Intellectuals by Benja

316
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and Teely, and tell me what you think. And you know,

317
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when it comes to Italian fascism, I would say, is

318
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once you read that, you're like, okay, this this seems

319
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to fill in in the spaces where Marx, you know,

320
00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:06,920
obviously went insane, and you know the insane parts of

321
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Marx and the anti human parts of Marx, and it

322
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seems like Italian fascism does was the first and did

323
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a very very good job of answering those questions and saying, look,

324
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this is the way, this is the way you answer that.

325
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Of course, it's Italian, and it's ethnic, and it is

326
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an you know, it's it's an ethnic group that can

327
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actually come together and much better than a multicultural you know,

328
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shit storm like we have now.

329
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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, the the whole modern Marxist constellation in the

330
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West just remains perpetually ignorant of how fascism actually sought

331
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to contend with liberalism, right.

332
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Speaker 2: They they have.

333
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Speaker 3: This this idea that they'll they'll quote endlessly about fascism

334
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being like the rear guard of capitalism, like whenever capitalism

335
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is threatened, it pulls out fascism to go beat up

336
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communists in the streets or whatever to protect capitalism, which is,

337
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as you and I know, is entirely the opposite of

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the truth. Fascism from the beginning, Like yes, like if

339
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you read Gentila and a lot of these other intellectuals

340
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is just as inimically opposed to liberalism as it is

341
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to Bolshevism.

342
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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I mean.

343
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Speaker 1: When you when you look at Italian fascism, it's not

344
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saying that the it's not reducing the human, you know,

345
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the man down to a unit of labor, you know,

346
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which is what Marks you know, clearly, clearly, clearly is doing.

347
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And it's very anti human and it's if you really understand,

348
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like dialectical materialism, it is probably probably the most anti

349
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human concept in the history of mankind because it just

350
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strips man of of history. It strips man of who

351
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he is, a strips man of his uh, his heritage,

352
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where he comes from, who his people are, and it

353
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tears you know, it tears him from the land. It

354
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doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what land is, it doesn't

355
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matter who you are. Basically, it just takes blood and

356
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soil right out of the picture, right right out of

357
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the picture, and says, you know what, what somebody can

358
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do with their hands is the most important thing. And

359
00:25:56,319 --> 00:25:59,839
once somebody can't do anything with their hands anymore, they're

360
00:26:00,039 --> 00:26:09,000
life is basically useless. It's another example of people accusing,

361
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accusing fascists of actually what actual Marxists belief.

362
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Speaker 2: Well.

363
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Speaker 3: Additionally, a lot of the especially present day Marxists again

364
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sort of so called because we know most of these

365
00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:32,599
people don't read or don't understand Marx even they confuse

366
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or they have this idea that there's a sort of

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capitalist culture that has to be attacked to break down

368
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the sort of superstructure of capitalism. And they identify all

369
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sorts of things as being like culturally capitalist, like family structures, right,

370
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is one of the things that they started with, uh

371
00:27:01,039 --> 00:27:04,480
very early on, like wanting children to be to be

372
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raised communally and uh, you know, of course in the

373
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in the Soviet Union, early on they had no fault

374
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divorce before like anyone else, uh resulted in the total

375
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collapse of family structure in the Soviet Union in the

376
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early years before they kind of uh realed that back

377
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in a little bit, which is just insanity. I mean,

378
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the identify they identify basically any aspect of what you

379
00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:39,400
what you might call traditional culture as being sort of

380
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:45,000
supportive of capitalism or or liberalism. I think that's one

381
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of the things that that really turned people away from

382
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,200
from the left and towards these new fascist movements. Is

383
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regardless of what these communist movements said about capitalism and

384
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,640
liberalism that that might have been largely correct in many cases,

385
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:10,640
I'll agree with them. Their whole manner of operation, the

386
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,519
way that they constantly attacked any manifestation of of like

387
00:28:15,559 --> 00:28:20,000
a traditional culture, cause people to see them as little

388
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:27,400
more than barbaric despoilers, not without good reason. That's where

389
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,640
the fascists come in and have their own opposition to liberalism,

390
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,000
to capitalism, but make their attack on it in a

391
00:28:36,039 --> 00:28:41,359
way that isn't just catching normal people in the crossfire, right,

392
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,359
that they actually give people.

393
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Speaker 2: Purpose and identity in their.

394
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Speaker 3: In their people and where they come from, in their

395
00:28:51,319 --> 00:28:55,319
in the social relations that they are traditionally accustomed to,

396
00:28:56,119 --> 00:28:59,240
and that is a much better path forward. That's one

397
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,440
of the reasons that the the fascists basically across Europe

398
00:29:03,519 --> 00:29:07,079
ended up being victorious against communism domestically.

399
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, when you have when you have a

400
00:29:13,759 --> 00:29:22,119
group of people basically pushing the ideology and running running

401
00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:27,079
the country who don't have a you know, don't have

402
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:33,720
ties to it, then it's all ideology. There's there's nothing

403
00:29:33,799 --> 00:29:37,039
grounding the ideology. It's just an ideology up in the air,

404
00:29:37,079 --> 00:29:40,839
and it's just basically it's like liberalism. Liberalism doesn't have

405
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,160
an ideology, there's no it can't. Liberalism could have an ideology,

406
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,839
but it's not tied to anything it's not moored to anything.

407
00:29:50,319 --> 00:29:58,599
And you know, it's yeah, I mean it's no, it's

408
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:03,920
no wonder at the that it got so out of

409
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,640
it got as out of hand in Russia as it did,

410
00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:12,079
especially in the especially in the twenties. And I'm not

411
00:30:12,119 --> 00:30:15,119
even talking about the Stalin's purges and everything. Those are

412
00:30:16,079 --> 00:30:18,839
most people don't even really understand what was happening there.

413
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,039
But the when you have a group of people who

414
00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:27,880
are in charge, who go from place, who are basically

415
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:34,160
gypsies going from place to place. Yeah, of course, the

416
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,400
they're not going any time they try to do something

417
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,359
in a country that does have uh, you know, blood

418
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,880
and soil nationalism or just that kind of history. It's

419
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,920
going it's you're going to come up against people who

420
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:56,440
are even if your ideology is completely anti human and slaughterists,

421
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,440
you're going to come up against people who are going

422
00:30:58,519 --> 00:31:01,160
to be willing to fight to the death for what

423
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,640
they know and what they believe and what their ancestors

424
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:05,599
have handed down to them.

425
00:31:06,519 --> 00:31:06,799
Speaker 2: Yeah.

426
00:31:06,839 --> 00:31:11,119
Speaker 3: And in the early ussr of course, they even they

427
00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:18,079
had this campaign against what they called Great Russian chauvinism.

428
00:31:18,559 --> 00:31:23,640
Great Russian meant like basically the people of today's Russia

429
00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:29,480
as opposed to like Belarus or Ukraine. The Ukrainians were

430
00:31:29,519 --> 00:31:34,400
also known as little Russians or like people from people

431
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:41,680
from lesser Russia, not in the sense of being like

432
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,519
bad or worse than the rest of Russia, but like

433
00:31:44,839 --> 00:31:48,599
as this sort of more more minor part of it,

434
00:31:50,079 --> 00:31:53,839
the part that was added to it later. And so

435
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,079
they basically they attacked this idea of Russian identity as

436
00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:03,039
paramount in the Soviet state, which is of course bound

437
00:32:03,119 --> 00:32:07,680
to fail because Russians were the overwhelming majority in their

438
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,960
new state. Those would of course get rolled back under Stalin,

439
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,519
and especially during the Second World War, they do a

440
00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:18,359
full one eighty and they start appealing to things that

441
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,519
actually motivate people. They're appealing to the legacy of like

442
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,200
Ivan the Great and you know, the resistance against the

443
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,720
Teutonic Order and all of this kind of historical.

444
00:32:33,079 --> 00:32:35,079
Speaker 2: Identity to motivate people.

445
00:32:35,079 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 3: And of course, you know, they bring back the Church,

446
00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:41,759
they bring back all these other parts of traditional Russian identity.

447
00:32:43,039 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 2: In many ways, you.

448
00:32:43,759 --> 00:32:48,599
Speaker 3: Can say with a good deal of truth that Stalin's

449
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,640
regime pivoted towards a sort of red fascism in a

450
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:58,200
lot of ways, But I think I want to return

451
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,079
to this point about liberal as and how inimical the

452
00:33:03,039 --> 00:33:07,119
fascist or national socialist worldview is to it. Now, when

453
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,160
you look at these these addresses by Mussolini, he barely

454
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:19,079
talks about the Communists. Now, of course, it's true that

455
00:33:19,359 --> 00:33:21,920
the Communists are not on Italian soil at this point.

456
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,759
It is the Western allies, and so naturally most of

457
00:33:24,759 --> 00:33:29,359
his ire would be directed against them. But you have

458
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,640
to ask yourself, if you're one of these people who

459
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:38,200
thinks that fascism is sort of a rear guard for capitalism, why.

460
00:33:38,039 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: Didn't they just give up?

461
00:33:39,279 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 3: Why didn't they just allow themselves to be taken over

462
00:33:43,519 --> 00:33:48,440
by by the West. Why was there so much resistance if,

463
00:33:48,519 --> 00:33:54,119
after all they were ideologically aligned, And yet resistance only

464
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,759
increased after the invasion. Resistance only got stronger and stronger,

465
00:33:58,759 --> 00:34:01,119
and they kept fighting in the Italian Front, turned into

466
00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:06,799
this bloody quagmire for the Western allies. I think, to

467
00:34:06,799 --> 00:34:09,119
to any thinking person, this has got to make you

468
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:10,119
ask some questions.

469
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,519
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you this. I think this probably

470
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:23,719
seems pretty obvious, but it seems like Italian fascism because

471
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,199
of everything that was, all of the you know, sort

472
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,639
of manifestos that were written. It seemed to be more

473
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:36,679
fleshed out and more i would say systematic than German

474
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:44,800
Nasteramal socialism, British British fascism, French fascism. It really seems

475
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:50,239
like they like they knew what they wanted and where

476
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:56,480
this was going, and better than better than the other countries.

477
00:34:56,559 --> 00:35:00,119
Not not throwing shade on any of the other countries, obviously,

478
00:35:00,519 --> 00:35:03,840
I have you know, I have sympathies to all of them,

479
00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:08,480
but it definitely seems like the Italians figure this out

480
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:14,119
early and were and had that at least that advantage

481
00:35:14,159 --> 00:35:15,280
over the other countries.

482
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you'd be right to say that it

483
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:23,599
was more sort of formally ideological in nature. National socialism

484
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,840
is made up of sort of a collection of somewhat

485
00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:37,159
disparate tendencies, the Volkish movement and of course the sort

486
00:35:37,159 --> 00:35:42,079
of reactionary element of just wanting to fight the Bolsheviks,

487
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,480
along with all these sort of contingent geopolitical realities that

488
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:53,159
Germany was faced with. Italy being in a different position

489
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,440
after the First World War, being at least on paper,

490
00:35:57,519 --> 00:36:01,679
a victorious power, it is a little bit different. They

491
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:07,480
had a little bit more time to develop all the

492
00:36:07,519 --> 00:36:10,079
stuff systematically, and I think in a way that also

493
00:36:10,119 --> 00:36:11,880
made it a little bit more exportable.

494
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, let us not forget that they

495
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:24,079
they weren't always friendly with Germany. They uh, Southern Germany

496
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,440
suffered suffered at the hands of Italy after the war.

497
00:36:27,679 --> 00:36:33,599
There was definitely some incursions there that caused problems. So yeah,

498
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:41,000
they is as nationalists, as nationalistic as they they were

499
00:36:41,039 --> 00:36:45,239
trying to be, there was still they were still crossing

500
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,760
the border and causing some problems for the for the

501
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,679
Southern German people for sure, and Austrians too.

502
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,599
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean up until what thirty six, there

503
00:36:55,599 --> 00:37:00,239
were some some very serious disagreements between the and in

504
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,679
Italian governments. The the Italians had signed uh what's what's

505
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,119
known as the stress of Front, which is an agreement

506
00:37:09,199 --> 00:37:11,559
between Italy, France and Britain.

507
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:13,119
Speaker 2: So yeah, in.

508
00:37:13,079 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 3: This this sort of alignment between Italy, France, and Britain,

509
00:37:17,519 --> 00:37:20,840
who were of course the the victorious powers in the

510
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:28,079
First World War, wasn't really broken until Mosslny's whole Ethiopian adventure,

511
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,519
which which put a lot of friction between Italy and

512
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,639
the other Western powers.

513
00:37:36,199 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 2: Funny enough.

514
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,519
Speaker 3: The Germans actually are supplying weapons to the Ethiopians during

515
00:37:41,639 --> 00:37:47,480
this conflict, hoping to put pressure on on Italy, which

516
00:37:47,519 --> 00:37:52,159
is the major roadblock to their desired annexation of Austria anyway.

517
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,840
So it's it's not until after this that the Italians

518
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:59,599
actually realign uh with with Germany and breakaway from the West.

519
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,800
There had been a lot of rivalry or between France

520
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,440
and Italy during the inter war period, but this is

521
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,119
the first time that there's a real rupture between them,

522
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,960
and it's also very similar in a lot of ways

523
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:19,280
to the German rivalry with Japan in the interwar period.

524
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,719
It's worth remembering also Japan was on the opposite side

525
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,519
to Germany in the First World War, seized a lot

526
00:38:26,519 --> 00:38:32,159
of their Pacific colonies which Germany never recovered. And during

527
00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:35,679
the inter war period, the Germans are actually supplying the

528
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:41,320
Chinese with weapons and even with training the Komantang, the

529
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:46,760
Chinese nationalists, their best divisions were actually trained by German officers.

530
00:38:48,159 --> 00:38:52,079
Chinese troops are equipped mostly with Mauser rifles, and if

531
00:38:52,119 --> 00:38:56,199
you look at any period depiction of nationalists Chinese troops,

532
00:38:56,559 --> 00:39:01,280
they are wearing German style helmets but with this whole

533
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,920
realignment in in the thirties.

534
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,039
Speaker 2: Uh, these old.

535
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 3: Enemies realign on ideological rather than purely geopolitical lines, and

536
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,360
that's that's sort of what turns the Second World War

537
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:21,239
into fundamentally an ideological conflict, which was probably inevitable, but

538
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,079
it's interesting to see how long it took for that

539
00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:24,360
realignment to take place.

540
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,039
Speaker 1: It's interesting with the with the ideology. When you understand

541
00:39:30,079 --> 00:39:37,079
the ideological angle. Obviously, countries like Romania and border countries,

542
00:39:37,679 --> 00:39:40,719
countries that are immediately threatened by the Soviet Union, you

543
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:45,599
would understand why they they would side with Germany, with

544
00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:49,320
the Allies with the not with the Allies with the

545
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:56,800
Axis and and fight and yeah. But a lot of

546
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:01,840
those were just basically anti Bolshevik. A lot of the

547
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,239
volunteers that came in to Germany were basically anti Bolshevik

548
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,119
and anti Communists. But you know, someone like the country

549
00:40:10,159 --> 00:40:15,599
like Italy did have a did have an ideology that

550
00:40:15,639 --> 00:40:20,039
they were that they weren't hanging on to more so

551
00:40:20,119 --> 00:40:23,519
than you know, I mean, I could say Romania, but

552
00:40:23,559 --> 00:40:29,679
you know, on ten Escu pretty much pretty much. You know,

553
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,840
Kadrianu was out of the picture at that point. So

554
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,280
and that would have been the ideological the ideological center

555
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:42,440
for for Romania. But yeah, the country Italy being that

556
00:40:42,559 --> 00:40:46,599
ideological is interesting when so many other countries and even

557
00:40:46,599 --> 00:40:50,679
countries that weren't immediately threatened by the Soviet Union decided

558
00:40:50,679 --> 00:40:53,159
that they were going to join in the fight just

559
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,559
to crush crush the Bolshevism.

560
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think the threat that they posed

561
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,039
was readily apparent to to quite a lot of people,

562
00:41:03,039 --> 00:41:07,760
and especially after Spain, I think there's probably their greatest

563
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,239
foreign policy blunder by the Soviet Union getting involved in

564
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,039
this war in Spain and sponsoring these these Bolsheviks over

565
00:41:16,079 --> 00:41:21,920
there who are just completely off the reservation. All of

566
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,639
Europe basically is looking at that and going, Okay, who's

567
00:41:25,679 --> 00:41:26,440
going to be next?

568
00:41:29,119 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 2: A huge motivator.

569
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 3: For for a lot of people to get involved on

570
00:41:34,079 --> 00:41:39,880
whatever side is the most opposed to whatever that is, and.

571
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 1: That is one of the main reasons why the Spanish

572
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:49,920
narrative needed after the war. Yeah, people that that old

573
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,280
tired saying that the victor is right write the history books. Well,

574
00:41:54,559 --> 00:41:57,800
in this case, it almost seems like they had to

575
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:04,960
make sure that the the quote unquote Republican side wrote

576
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,639
the book wrote the history books on this so that

577
00:42:09,159 --> 00:42:13,440
to whitewash the Soviet you know, the Soviet Union. It

578
00:42:13,519 --> 00:42:16,280
is until guys like Pain come along and start writing

579
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,119
that you actually get a clear, a clear vision of

580
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:21,280
what happened there.

581
00:42:22,679 --> 00:42:23,199
Speaker 2: Yeah.

582
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 3: Although as I'm saying this, I think this is one

583
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:32,760
thing that makes the the Italian ideological development sort of

584
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:38,400
different from a lot of these other European fascist movements,

585
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,880
because the Italian fascists had sort of begun begun this

586
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,840
development prior to when the Soviet Union really appeared as

587
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:53,440
this great looming threat. If you're an Italian in let's

588
00:42:53,480 --> 00:43:01,280
say the early twenties, liberalism and capitalism are are much

589
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:06,159
more hegemonic, and they appear to you as perhaps the

590
00:43:06,199 --> 00:43:11,519
most relevant opponents to what you want to accomplish. And

591
00:43:11,559 --> 00:43:17,800
there was even early on some mutual admiration between the

592
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,519
Italians and the Soviets. I think in as late as

593
00:43:22,599 --> 00:43:26,199
thirty three, or perhaps it was a little earlier than

594
00:43:26,199 --> 00:43:31,119
that had signed like a mutual friendship pact. Some of

595
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,280
the Soviet Black Sea Fleet had actually been built in

596
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:40,800
Italian shipyards. There was some cooperation the Italians saw in them,

597
00:43:41,079 --> 00:43:46,159
at least an ally of convenience against the sort of

598
00:43:46,199 --> 00:43:50,599
Western plutocracies, which is kind of interesting if you are

599
00:43:50,639 --> 00:43:55,159
some of these later fascist movements that are appearing mostly

600
00:43:55,199 --> 00:43:59,519
in response to Soviet aggression in Europe, to the common

601
00:43:59,599 --> 00:44:06,000
turn communist international, some of the opposition to liberalism and

602
00:44:06,039 --> 00:44:11,480
capitalism might be de emphasized or even forgotten entirely, which

603
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:12,679
I think is a mistake.

604
00:44:14,599 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: Well, I think we should probably wrap up there. Do

605
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,519
you have any other any thoughts, any closing comments on

606
00:44:21,559 --> 00:44:24,119
this subject. I mean, it's like you said, it's one

607
00:44:24,199 --> 00:44:28,159
of you know, we always talk about Germany and even

608
00:44:28,639 --> 00:44:34,679
probably mostly in England, but a lot of what a

609
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:38,880
lot in America of what the Italian fascists were doing

610
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,480
seems to get left out of the conversation.

611
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say, of course, this is a very

612
00:44:43,039 --> 00:44:48,880
interesting book for a sort of wartime look into what

613
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,159
was going on in Italy with Mussolini as the resistance

614
00:44:54,559 --> 00:44:56,960
as they were attempting to put up resistance to the.

615
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 2: Conquest by the Western allies.

616
00:44:59,039 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 3: But I also I really recommend that people go and

617
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,079
look into early Italian fascism as well and where it

618
00:45:07,119 --> 00:45:10,400
came from, how it developed through the twenties especially, is

619
00:45:10,639 --> 00:45:14,360
very often left out. We have some books on this topic.

620
00:45:15,559 --> 00:45:18,239
We would like to have more, but check those out

621
00:45:18,679 --> 00:45:23,239
Gentile and Dunancio and Marinetti, but also check out books

622
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:28,400
from other sources if you're interested in understanding this ideological development.

623
00:45:29,519 --> 00:45:30,599
Speaker 2: They did do it first.

624
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 3: It's very critical to understanding everything that came afterwards.

625
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,559
Speaker 2: And it's just very much worth your time.

626
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 1: Kurt, I appreciate it. Thank you. Everybody. Go over to

627
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,800
go to Antelope Hill. I have a promo code there.

628
00:45:49,079 --> 00:45:54,800
It's Pete Pete Q five percent off your order. I've

629
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,679
I'm redoing my library right now.

630
00:45:57,679 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 2: I just put in.

631
00:46:00,039 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: I just put it in built in bookshelves, and I'm

632
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,679
going through all of my books and reorganizing them. And

633
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,280
the amount of Antelope Hill books I am pulling out

634
00:46:08,519 --> 00:46:12,000
is there are some there that I've read that I've

635
00:46:12,039 --> 00:46:18,559
completely forgotten about. So I can't you know, I can't

636
00:46:19,559 --> 00:46:23,400
recommend enough the work you guys are doing over there,

637
00:46:23,519 --> 00:46:26,400
and you know, just continue to do it, and thank

638
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:27,000
you very much,