WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.839 Oh hey, it's your old roommate who always found the 2 00:00:02.839 --> 00:00:05.120 best furniture on the side of the road. Ali Ward, 3 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.480 did you know that you love ferns? Not yet, said tight, 4 00:00:08.759 --> 00:00:11.480 you're about to. I'm going to tell you one person 5 00:00:11.480 --> 00:00:14.439 who loves ferns. It's this guest. In fact, I first 6 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:17.000 saw this ologist in this quick video about ferns, and 7 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:20.199 they were wearing a shirt that said iHeart ferns, but 8 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:23.359 the heart was a fern geme to fight. You're going 9 00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:25.519 to find out everything about that later. And they said 10 00:00:25.559 --> 00:00:28.559 that ferns were fantastic. This is in the first five 11 00:00:28.600 --> 00:00:30.480 seconds of the video, and I was like, they're on 12 00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:34.560 And they wrote the twenty twenty five book Ferns Lessons 13 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:38.240 in Survival from the Earth's Most Adaptable Plants. And they're 14 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:42.359 an associate professor at Cornell's Boyce Thompson Institute. They got 15 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:45.320 their PhD in ferns at Duke University, where they're also 16 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:48.799 a scholar in residence. And we'll talk about their stories 17 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:51.560 and their history and their deep love of ferns in 18 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:53.439 a moment, But first, thank you to everyone who supports 19 00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:55.840 the show via Patreon, dot com, slash ologies, where you 20 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:57.799 can join for a dollar a month, and you can 21 00:00:57.880 --> 00:01:00.280 leave questions for theologists ahead of time. Thank you to 22 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:03.320 everyone out there in ologies Merch via ologiesmerch dot com. 23 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:05.560 Thank you to everyone who leaves reviews for the show, 24 00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:08.519 which helps so much, such as this recent one from 25 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:11.359 pet Bunch, who said that Ologies makes me happy to 26 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:15.799 be alive in an infinitely interesting world with infinitely curious 27 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:20.200 and generous ologists. PT happy to have here, and blue 28 00:01:20.200 --> 00:01:22.079 dot rows happy to have you and your sister here 29 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:25.400 in spirit okay. Thank you also to sponsors of Ologies, 30 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:27.640 who for years have made it possible for us to 31 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:29.959 donate to a cause or two each week. 32 00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:34.000 Get value you can't argue with at Tesco with their 33 00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:36.840 amazing club card prices. Have the perfect night in with 34 00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:40.079 our finest frozen pizza meal deal. Get a finest frozen pizza, 35 00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:42.920 chips and ice cream all for six euro like our 36 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:46.079 delicious spicy salami, hot honey and do you or Margarito 37 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:49.400 wood fired pizzas served up with their crispy chunkie chips 38 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:51.920 and ice cream like se sil de caramel or pistachio 39 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:55.040 for dessert. Can't argue with that Shelp in store or 40 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:59.400 online Tesco. Every little helps available in most stores, prices 41 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:00.000 very and express. 42 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:03.719 Your flat out and your to do list is growing 43 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:07.200 by the minute, but unfortunately, so is your headache. And 44 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:13.000 now you've gone from flat out to flattened. Luckily, panodal 45 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:16.400 extra film coated tablets are boosted by caffeine and they 46 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:19.360 get to work in as little as ten minutes for 47 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:23.039 powerful relief. That's more than just paracetamol. That's one for 48 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:27.719 panadal speed based on absorption data. Contains paracetamol. Always read 49 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:28.680 the label or leaflet. 50 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:37.960 Okay, let's jump into terodology. So the pet comes from 51 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:40.919 the Greek word for a wing or a feather, so 52 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:47.759 like pterodactyl or helicopter helico, which means spiral, and pitu, 53 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:49.759 which means wing. So if you didn't know, yeah, the 54 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:53.159 pate in helicopter is its own word in there. It's weird. 55 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:56.599 But ferns they look feathery, so people who study them 56 00:02:56.599 --> 00:03:00.759 are officially on record as terodologists. And so let's illuminate 57 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:04.520 the shadowy world of ferns to hear about their long evolution. 58 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:08.400 What ferns not to have in your house icons to 59 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:12.759 fern scientists, haploid, diploid spot packets, Do they have roots? 60 00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:16.360 How ferns can teach us about sexual identity? The most 61 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:21.240 expensive ferns, the tastiest ferns, the trendiest ferns, mathematical mysteries, 62 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:24.120 and a genome that makes no sense to me, at 63 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:30.800 least with the absolutely charming, enthusiastic scholar professor, researcher, fern 64 00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:54.560 advocate and pterotologist doctor Fayway Lee Lee him, where are 65 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:55.479 you right now? 66 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.719 Right now in nor Kolena. I'm actually in a process 67 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:00.960 off moving my lab Duke University. 68 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:04.199 Does North Carolina have good ferns? I feel like I 69 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:05.800 don't even know if North Carolina has burns? 70 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:09.360 Yeah? I mean North America in January is not a 71 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:12.520 great place to find ferns. The most exciting place in 72 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:14.840 North America to find ferns is in the desert. 73 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:16.720 What no? 74 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:20.800 Yeah? Yeah. Arizona, for example, has one of the highest 75 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:21.879 fern diversity. 76 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:24.720 I thought berns needed a lot of darkness and water, 77 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:27.000 and those arely two things Arizona does not have. 78 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.439 Well, so they have a what we call a calmphoid ferns. 79 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:35.079 They are desert ferns. They adapted to this really dry 80 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:39.000 environment and they really took advantage of it and took off. 81 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:42.120 They diversify so much diversity there. 82 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:43.199 What do they look like? 83 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:47.480 Usually they look really crispy. They can lose their water 84 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:50.720 up to ninety percent and I can still come back alive. 85 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:53.920 So if you, for example, have a hike in a 86 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:58.439 desert in Arizona, Texas, whatever it sees on crispy ferns, 87 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:01.480 put them no zibla back, pulls on water over it. 88 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:04.240 They might come back. Just grin it up. 89 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:07.199 Oh my gosh, does moss do that as well? Can't 90 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:10.160 moss like dehydrate and rehydrate a lot? 91 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:14.279 Yeah? Yeah, in many ways, they are like mosses. They 92 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:17.160 had resurrection ferns. They looked dead, but then they still 93 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:17.920 can come back. 94 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:21.720 Well, what a name? What a compelling name? Like zombie 95 00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:25.519 coming back from the dead. When I think of a fern, 96 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:27.879 I think of these dark forests, and I think of 97 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:33.120 like deep gullies and streams and wetness and stuff. But 98 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:37.759 what exactly is a fern? Like, they're a plant, but 99 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:40.279 they're not like normal plants, right, not like the plants 100 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:40.879 were used to. 101 00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:43.680 Yeah, I mean there are many ways to define our ferns. 102 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:46.720 You're gonna define it by looking out why they doesn't 103 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:50.560 have They don't have seeds, they don't produce flowers. But 104 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:53.079 the most definitive way to define a fern is their 105 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:55.519 sex life. Let me hear it. Okay, well they don't 106 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:58.319 have flowers, right, and then flowers where the sex happens, 107 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:02.560 the sperm will fertilizes that you have the next generations. 108 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.279 Fernds don't have flowers and the funnier friends you see 109 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:09.079 outside out deploids. They have two set of chromosomes, like 110 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:12.120 flying plants and humans for example, But I have this 111 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:17.040 entirely different generations that we call the gameto pace, and 112 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:19.399 a Gametophytes are haploids. 113 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:24.319 So diploid two means two copies of a gene and 114 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:27.879 haploid means one copy. Most of your cells are diploid, 115 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:30.639 but game meat cells like sperm and egg are haploid 116 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:33.920 because they're gonna hook up with each other. So ferns 117 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:38.360 have this stage gametophytes, which means like a sexy plant. 118 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:42.120 And it's easy to remember because gammutophytes typically look like 119 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:45.279 little green hearts or sometimes they look like an ovenmit, 120 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:48.240 which I guess is sexy, depending on who wear the 121 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:52.160 person is wearing the oven mit. But yeah, gamutofytes structures 122 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:54.279 of sexual independence. 123 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:57.199 And that independent they live outside of the deploy ferns 124 00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:01.800 that green. They're usually super tiny, smaller than a new fingernails, 125 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:06.240 for example. And this is where the sex happens in ferns. 126 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:09.120 Nine of flowers by in a gam doovive phase. 127 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.319 And does that come out as the spores that you 128 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:14.800 see that powdery brown stuff on the back. 129 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:18.839 Of the leave right exactly? So the spores were geminating 130 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:23.000 to gamdovides, and the gamdovides are free living. They will 131 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:26.079 produce egg and sperms and they will fertilized and have 132 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:29.360 become a zygo, and a zygo will become you know, 133 00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:32.639 the furny ferns you see outside. So they basically have 134 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:37.959 two independent generations, the haploid phase and the deploy phase. 135 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:44.519 And is this an older type of reproduction or is 136 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:47.519 it just divergent evolution or is this something that's kind 137 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:48.879 of ancestral. 138 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:52.040 Only in ferns. You have these two separate generations living 139 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:55.279 independent with each other. And that's why make that unique. 140 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:57.439 That exactly defines a firm. 141 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:01.680 What is there basic anatomy? Do they have a rhizome 142 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:03.720 or do they have roots? If you had to give 143 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:05.319 the basic parts of a fern. 144 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:09.800 Okay, so I guess the tax for ferns will have 145 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:13.240 a horizontal rhizome, and the rhizome you can think about 146 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:15.839 it's a stem, and then you have leaf, which is 147 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:19.480 a fern frons coming out, and then beneath it you 148 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:23.079 have the roots, so a chhizome, a stem, roots coming 149 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:25.639 down and the leaf coming out. Okay, that's a basic 150 00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:28.680 principle there. And the roots are true roots. They are 151 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.560 not like a brow fight roots, which is a rhizoids. 152 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:34.639 Oh okay, so that's a misconception that they don't have roots. 153 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:38.240 They have proper vasculatures in their roots system. 154 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:38.799 Nice. 155 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:42.639 So yes, ferns have roots, but they also have rhizomes 156 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:44.919 that act like a stem, but they look kind of 157 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:47.960 like a clumpy knob at the base of the fronds. 158 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:51.399 And then below the rhizome you have the actual roots 159 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:55.799 of the plant. Obviously, with over ten thousand species of ferns, 160 00:08:55.879 --> 00:08:58.600 we're not going to discuss every fern, but we can 161 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:02.840 get the broad strokes, especially between the massy or bryophyte 162 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:07.360 looking little gametophytes which are tiny and the frond looking 163 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:10.759 adult sporophytes. I love also that you call them mossy 164 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:15.519 mosses and ferny ferns. Yeah, like to get an idea 165 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:16.639 of like what they look. 166 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:19.799 Like and the fern gamdo fights where the halflo face 167 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:23.039 they do look in many ways like a bro fights. 168 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:25.559 And we had a great episode about moss a few 169 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:29.840 years ago, and I'd never considered what their life cycle 170 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:32.080 was like, or how rich and diversity they are, and 171 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:33.960 how you can go up close to one and just 172 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:36.320 see so much that you would overlook unless you had 173 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:38.679 a loop and stuff. But have you always been like 174 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:42.759 a plant person or did you get into this via 175 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:45.919 the spore angle or what what made it so that 176 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:51.440 you are an expert in you're a terdologist. 177 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:56.559 I'm a yes. Yeah. So I grew up in Taiwan. 178 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:00.320 There's just so many fern diversity in Taiwan. So to 179 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:04.519 put into a perspective, Taiwan has eight hundred fern species. 180 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:08.039 Taiwan is like a third of the third size of 181 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:11.360 New York State. The whole North America has only four 182 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:14.360 hundred species. So this tiny allen has double of fern 183 00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:20.159 diversity compared to USA. And so I just really got 184 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:23.080 really fascinated about the diversity of friends. My parents have 185 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:26.039 a little cabin in the woods, and I spent a 186 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:28.879 lot of time in a forest looking around and just 187 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:31.799 realized there's so many of them and I just wanted 188 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:35.320 to identify them learn more about them. And that's how 189 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:36.960 I've become hooked with ferns. 190 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:41.240 Did your parents get you plant books and were they? 191 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:45.279 Didn't you come back to the house like all these plants? 192 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:48.679 They did? Did they give me many field guides? And 193 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:51.799 that's yeah. 194 00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:55.320 I feel like with ferns there is something really beautiful 195 00:10:55.320 --> 00:11:00.480 about doing spore pressings and like the preservation. Do you 196 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:02.799 find when you're doing this research? Do you have to 197 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:06.120 go back in archives to see specimens that were collected 198 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:08.440 a long time ago that are pressed How are you 199 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:11.360 even researching and cataloging them? 200 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:15.480 Yeah, we use herbarium a lot. So herbarier is like 201 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:18.720 a library of debt plants. It's really a magical place. 202 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:23.600 So it's a place you basically have physical plant materials 203 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:27.039 from around the world and from different plant lineages and 204 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:28.960 just go to different cabinets and you can pull them 205 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:32.279 hous can look at them very closely. And so we 206 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.519 spend a lot of time in herbarium looking for characters, 207 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:39.279 trying to identify different species of ferns. We also were 208 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:42.120 able to find some new species just by looking at 209 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:43.559 all herbarian specimens. 210 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:46.320 No, how do you tell are you able to take 211 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:49.039 a little fragment of it and do any DNA now 212 00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:50.399 on it to Yeah. 213 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:54.279 Yeah, exactly. That's the beauty of herbarians specimens. They preserve 214 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:57.799 so much information that DNA you can get or you can 215 00:11:57.799 --> 00:12:01.840 get DNA from specimens as as over one hundred years 216 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:05.279 old specimens. And they have the locality, we know where 217 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:07.720 they come from. They have the spores where you can 218 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:11.399 look at this spar mophology. So yeah, her parent's very 219 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:15.600 important for botanical research. And in the past we've discovered 220 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:19.240 several new species. So big. Before you discover something new, right, 221 00:12:19.240 --> 00:12:21.960 you got a chance to name it and yeah, yeah, yeah. 222 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.879 One time we discovers a new genus and my advisor 223 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:31.279 and I decide to name it after Lady Gaga, So 224 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:33.120 the genus is called Gaga. 225 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:39.159 No, yeah, that's amazing. Was your advisor Lady Gaga ban 226 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:40.840 or did you know that, like this is a good 227 00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:41.960 move for ferns. 228 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:47.759 She's she's a deep lady Gaga fans. The two things 229 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:50.000 we talk about when I was a graduate students her 230 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:54.879 cat and Lady Gaga's newest album. 231 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:56.799 Did Lady Gaga ever find out about that? 232 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:01.600 Yes, she was interviewed several times and people asked her 233 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:04.399 of all the Gaga friends and yeah shere acknowledge of this, 234 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:08.279 and the Gaga friends would describe, they have a really 235 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:12.559 odd reproductive methods and they Bipe has a lot of 236 00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:16.879 sexual reproductions. And so Lediga made a comments of all 237 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:19.440 the Gaga friends saying they are sexless. 238 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:22.720 And one of the researchers spearheading this twenty twelve naming 239 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:26.600 was doctor Kathleen Pryor, who was inspired in part by 240 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:32.000 this sequined light sea, foamy green and heart shaped body 241 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:35.159 suit that the pop star had performed in, and also 242 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:39.399 the DNA of this genus of nineteen different ferns has 243 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:44.720 some repeating pairs of Gaga or Gaga, and Doctor Pryor 244 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:47.519 also said that the naming was in honor of Lady 245 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:52.519 Gaga's quote fervent defense of equality and individual expression, and 246 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:55.080 that they think her second album Born This Way is 247 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:59.759 enormously empowering, especially for disenfranchised people and communities like lgbt 248 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:06.279 ethnic groups, women, and she added scientists who study odd ferns. 249 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.879 And while Lady Gaga has identified as bisexual, she's also 250 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:12.960 been quick to note that she doesn't represent the LGBTQ 251 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:16.559 plus community and just speaks up for equity and freedom 252 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.639 of sexual expression. And there were also earlier in her 253 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:25.159 career rumors of her being trans, and her response was 254 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:27.879 usually along the lines of, so what if I were so? 255 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:32.000 Fern commuta fights make male and female sex cells proof 256 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:35.639 that nature is not on a binary and so now 257 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:38.320 you're saying that they have kind of like a sexless reproduction. 258 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:41.679 But I'm wondering, like, because the spores always get me 259 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:43.480 with ferns, I think that's one of the things that's 260 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:47.120 most interesting when you are like looking at spores, say 261 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:49.639 under a microscope, Do they have a lot of different 262 00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:54.440 morphologies that determine what happens in their different like diploid 263 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:57.840 and haploid phases, Or is a spoor is a spor 264 00:14:57.840 --> 00:14:59.240 is a spore? Do they all look the same? 265 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:04.440 Spores contain a lot of informations a specie. Different genera 266 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:08.320 have really different ornamentations. Stems that have pores on the 267 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:12.000 spore walls and those are very important characters, and the 268 00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:16.440 size are important too. Many ferns like to become a polyploids, 269 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:20.120 so they duplicalated genomes pretty often, so I have four 270 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:24.240 copies of chromosomes. Many of them even have tall copies 271 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:27.840 of chromosomes. And when they do that, the spores become 272 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.279 very big. So we can measure the spores size as 273 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.639 a proxy of how many set of chromosomes they have 274 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:35.360 in a genome. 275 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:38.919 So to recap those little bumps on the underside of 276 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:42.039 a fern leaf, those are called psi, and each one 277 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:46.440 has little orbs, which in turn has the spores. And 278 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:49.799 when the time is right, the spores pop out like 279 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.519 someone from a giant birthday cake, and they find a 280 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:56.600 wet spot to germinate into that gametophyte with little root 281 00:15:56.759 --> 00:16:00.759 like rhizoids, and these can make the haploids or eggs. 282 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:04.200 And when a sperm finds an egg through a film 283 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:07.840 of water, then you get the diploid parts of the 284 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:10.840 life cycle. As the fern leaves begin to sprout and grow, 285 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.360 they commutify shrivels up at the base. As that fern 286 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:17.639 plant begins to grow up, the cycle starts again. But yes, 287 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:21.200 chromosomes in ferns, it turns out, can be wild and 288 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:23.960 do people who are researching ferns, such as yourself and 289 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:27.879 your lab, are you going about it from that genomics? 290 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:31.919 Are you in it for the chromosomes and the reproduction 291 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:37.360 cycle or are a lot of terodologists in conservation and 292 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:40.799 taxonomy of it? What makes a fern person kind of 293 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:41.960 come alive with the research? 294 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:45.519 Yeah. So in the past where I've down many different 295 00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:49.480 aspects of ferm biology, We've downsound taxonomy, we describe species, 296 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:53.080 looking at how those different species relate to each other, 297 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.559 and nowadays where we focus a lot on their genomics side. Now, friends, 298 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:02.480 are weird? Does a fern species auphioglossoms retic golottum it 299 00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:08.400 has fourteen hundred chromosomes? What so humans have forty six? Right? 300 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:09.319 What? 301 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:14.000 And then this guy has fourteen hundred chromosomes and just 302 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.559 why why do they do that? And their genomes are 303 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:21.039 huge as well? So you know DNA is composed of 304 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:24.920 atgc right, four different letters, and humans for example have 305 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:27.519 like three billions of different letters. 306 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:31.480 So most humans have forty six chromosomes twenty three pairs, 307 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:34.519 and each chromosome in humans can have up to three 308 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:38.079 hundred million base pairs, and the base pairs are the 309 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:42.200 rungs of that spiral ladder of DNA, and A pairs 310 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:46.799 with t, C pairs with G. So our genome contains 311 00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:49.839 over three billion base pairs of those letters. 312 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:52.880 But there's a firnt species has one hundred and sixty 313 00:17:53.519 --> 00:18:00.000 billion letters, like a lot bigger than human genome. Why right, 314 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:02.720 And that's something I want to figure out. How do 315 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:03.319 I do this? 316 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:08.279 So unraveling that DNA mystery that's in the future of ferns. 317 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:12.079 But what about tales of ferns past? Were they one 318 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:15.359 of the earlier plants when we see drawings of like 319 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:20.640 dinosaurs surrounded by ferns, is that pretty accurate? Did they 320 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:23.640 predate flowers by a lot like flowering plants? 321 00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:27.200 Well, yes, I know so. So ferns are both really 322 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:28.480 old and also are really young. 323 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:29.559 Tell me everything you know. 324 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:31.720 They're old in a sense. You can trace the whole 325 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:35.680 lineage back to company forwards, like three hundred million years ago, 326 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:40.160 and that is the time that ferns really dominated Earth. 327 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.720 The coals were burning now are coming from ferns and 328 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:46.680 the engine relatives, so you can think about friends are 329 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:52.680 feeling the civilizations of human beings anyway, So they dominate Earth, 330 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:56.960 and then in Cretaceous, like one hundred million years ago, 331 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:01.680 flying plants come along and they are bad. They are bullies. 332 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:06.599 They pushed ferns out, so they become the dominant actors 333 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:09.240 of the forest, and the friends have to figure out 334 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:13.200 how to do next. So they went under story, and 335 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:16.200 they kind of staging a comeback when they were under story, 336 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.880 and they adapt to the really low line environments and 337 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:23.319 they flourished and they diversify in the lowla environment. And 338 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:25.400 so most of the French species, most of the fur 339 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:29.759 lineage we see today, are actually really young, young, younger 340 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:30.920 than the flying plants. 341 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.640 Oh, because they had to adapt to it exactly. 342 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:37.200 We call them the diversifying the shadow of angelsperms in 343 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:40.839 the shadow of flying plants. Wow, yeah, they're young. 344 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:42.799 I had no idea. I always thought that they had 345 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:44.720 been around forever and it must have just been darker 346 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:46.079 than which is not right. 347 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:47.000 You are wrong. 348 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:50.599 So ferns themselves have been on Earth for four hundred 349 00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:54.279 million years, but they have adapted to temperature fluctuations and 350 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:59.559 they've kind of rebranded as understory low light champions in 351 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:03.880 some case is once the angiosperms or the flowering plants 352 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:06.079 came in and ruined their whole vibe. Do you get 353 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:08.119 a chance to go back to Taiwan and are you 354 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.079 just like ferns, ferns, ferns, ferns. Do you go back 355 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:15.960 and you're just like, ah, finally, so good ass ferns. 356 00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:21.279 Yeah? Every time, that number of species just blew me 357 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:25.039 away again and again. Walking though little trial, you see 358 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:29.519 a hundred of species. It's fantastic. One thing I miss 359 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:33.519 a lot in Taiwan is the food. And you can 360 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:38.000 find feto hats in Taiwan and then people cook it 361 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:41.599 and it's pretty common and they're really really delicious. 362 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:43.079 What's the best way to eat a fiddlehead? 363 00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:47.359 Okay, I guess I need to clarify. So not all 364 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:53.319 fetoheads are edible. Okay, some are all right, toxic and cosinogenic. 365 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:56.720 In eastern US, you will in the spring, you will 366 00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:59.880 go on and pick feto hats, right, So just makes 367 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:02.880 that you pick the right ones, don't pick the toxic one. 368 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:08.559 But the feto has we eat in the US, for example, 369 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:13.640 or is the species Commatsusia throphiopters. The common name is 370 00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:16.440 ostrich ferns and the best way to cook it, I 371 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:20.680 think it is. First thing, you branch them. They're very tanning, 372 00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:22.400 a lot of tanning, and you want to get rid 373 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:25.559 of them. And then I will ass some butter, some 374 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:29.240 fido has, some shrimps, some pasta together, make it up. 375 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:34.279 It's good. It's crounchy but also a bit slimy. So 376 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:37.680 it's like really interesting balance that I really. 377 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:39.839 Like, kind of like okra, like a little bit. Have 378 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:40.640 you ever had okra? 379 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:44.759 Okra is too slimy, but I think, yeah, like the 380 00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:46.279 crounchy bit is better. 381 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:51.480 Do a lot of animals go out lunching on fiddleheads. 382 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:54.440 Who eats ferns? In terms of like evolution. 383 00:21:55.480 --> 00:22:00.119 Ferns are famous for not being eaten really, so I 384 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.839 mentioned some vito hads. Some ferns are toxic, right, and 385 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:05.599 they are toxic for reasons they don't want to be eaten. 386 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:10.440 Friends are also very famous for having very little herbivalry. 387 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:11.400 What does that mean? 388 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:15.240 Don't get eaten? Very little insects eat them? 389 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:17.160 Oh okay, So if you if you. 390 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:20.160 Go out right again, go on a hike, look at 391 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:23.599 all the fern fronts. They're usually intact. If you look 392 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:27.359 at the flying plants. Someone's got chewed up pretty badly, 393 00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:33.359 and so the comparisons, the contrast pretty striking. And the 394 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:36.920 really cool thing about this is you can take advantage 395 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:40.640 of this. So there's a big c company called Koteva. 396 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:43.960 They produce a lot of coins and solbans in the US, 397 00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:48.200 and they got really interesting in ferns because they realize 398 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.960 no one eat ferns, but why right, And so they 399 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:56.279 develop very sophisticated screening pipelines. So they're able to identify 400 00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:00.559 a number of insect cydal proteins from ferns and they 401 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:03.279