WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.759 Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind, where we pursue wisdom 2 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:14.039 in the past between primary secondary worlds. Andrew Snyder and 3 00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:28.920 I'm glad that you're here. Hey, they welcome. Today, I'm 4 00:00:28.920 --> 00:00:31.000 going to bring you a conversation I recently had with 5 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:34.560 a few other patrons of the Mythic Mind community, and 6 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:37.560 we're going to be talking about Knights of the Old Republic, 7 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:40.679 this great game from two thousand and three, and so, 8 00:00:40.759 --> 00:00:42.200 I mean, yes, it's a little bit of age, but 9 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:45.039 there's a reason why we're still talking about it, the 10 00:00:45.079 --> 00:00:49.000 reason why this game continues to really be a fan favorite. 11 00:00:49.960 --> 00:00:53.039 It's one of the best things to come out of 12 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:55.640 Star Wars since the original trilogy, and we talked a 13 00:00:55.640 --> 00:00:58.039 little bit about that in this conversation. If you haven't 14 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:00.200 played it, I definitely recommend that you pick it up. 15 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:01.960 I mean, yeah, it's gonna be allllle clunky, graphics, will 16 00:01:01.960 --> 00:01:04.879 be a little bit outdated, but you know, if you're 17 00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:06.840 someone who can play over games, you can get through 18 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:09.480 some of that dimension, then is definitely still going to 19 00:01:09.519 --> 00:01:12.519 be worth your time. And also, I have something really 20 00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:15.599 exciting to announce. So you may have noticed that if 21 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:17.879 you've been listening to the show for a little while, 22 00:01:17.959 --> 00:01:20.120 that we're starting to branch off in all kinds of 23 00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:23.400 new directions, right. I mean, here we're talking about you know, 24 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:26.799 two thousand and three video game, We're talking about Star 25 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:31.760 Wars movies and beyond, we're talking about literature, or we've 26 00:01:31.799 --> 00:01:33.920 got our book club going on, and there are a 27 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:36.200 number of other things that are in the works behind 28 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:39.319 the scenes. And so with so many interests, right, I 29 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:41.159 have so many interests, and then when you broaden that 30 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:43.560 out to the mythic mind fellowship, right, there are so 31 00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:47.480 many interests at play here, so many different domains of 32 00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:50.719 knowledge of expertise. And part of what mythic mind is 33 00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:54.280 about is about about bringing all these things together to 34 00:01:54.439 --> 00:01:59.519 demonstrate that wherever you turn, that that wisdom is crying 35 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:02.000 out in the marketplace. In wisdom has a way of 36 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:06.200 bringing together apparently discordant realities. And so I believe that 37 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:08.919 there is a lot of benefit in looking at philosophy 38 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:13.719 of proper in studying theology, in applying our minds to 39 00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:18.759 video games, to books, to literature, to movies to shows. Right, 40 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:23.439 these are all potentially fruitful domains of engagement. But at 41 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:26.639 the same time, I recognize that not everybody not that 42 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:28.680 not all of our listeners are going to be interested 43 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:30.759 in all these different domains, and so instead of putting 44 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:34.879 everything together into one podcast, especially for the public feed, 45 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:37.599 we're going to be splintering this off into a few 46 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:39.960 different podcasts. I mean, we'll break it off one at 47 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:42.280 a time, but eventually I would love to have a 48 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:45.360 whole network of Mythic Mind podcasts devoted to you know, 49 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.199 have one that's just devoted to literature, to our book clubs, 50 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:52.439 one that's just devoted to philosophy proper, one that's just 51 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:57.080 devoted to video games or shows in movies. And I 52 00:02:57.199 --> 00:03:00.680 don't necessarily intend to be leading all these myself, you know, 53 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:04.400 I'll probably have a part in launching them. But my 54 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:07.800 desire is that as we continue to develop these new shows, 55 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:13.479 these new avenues, that they really do become increasingly communal affairs. 56 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:17.000 Through the Mythic Mind Fellowship, and we have over fifty 57 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:20.319 patrons in this community, and not all of them are 58 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:23.439 actively engaged in producing content, but a number of them 59 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:27.840 are to an increasing level. And so my intention is 60 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:30.840 to start a number of shows and to make them 61 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:34.560 community efforts, and eventually to hand off the rains entirely 62 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:36.680 that way, I'm not playing such an active role in 63 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:39.599 all these different directions I once. I mean, it'd be 64 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:41.639 fun if I could, but I don't have the capacity 65 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:44.000 for that, at least not until we are at significantly 66 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.400 higher levels of patronage. And so I'm excited to announce 67 00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:50.120 our first Splinter show, which is going to be based 68 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:53.120 around philosophy and video games. We're simply going to call 69 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:58.080 it Mythic mind Games. And if all goes according to play, 70 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:00.199 and it should already be available by the time you're 71 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:03.360 listening to this episode, So go look up Mythic mind 72 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:05.280 Games and if it's not available, then it will be 73 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:07.800 really soon. And sometimes it takes a little bit for 74 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:09.439 new shows to populate it. So just depending on how 75 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:11.800 the timeline sings up here, it's either available right now 76 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:13.960 as you're listening to this, especially if you're listening to 77 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:17.480 through the public feed, or it'll be available very soon. 78 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:20.920 That's gonna be the Mythic Mind Games podcast. And this 79 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:25.000 is gonna be a way to just engage in this 80 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:28.560 this new medium, new to us medium of you know, 81 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.560 getting into especially like role playing games, getting into the 82 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:35.079 stories that they provide and I think that there's a 83 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:36.720 lot of benefit there. I think there's a way to 84 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:39.920 connect to a lot of people. Now I've mentioned before that, 85 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:41.759 you know, I'm not somebody who, at least for the 86 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:43.319 last decade or so it has played a lot of 87 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:45.079 video games. I've played a lot in my youth, but 88 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.480 you know, since getting married, since getting you know, into 89 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:51.879 various jobs, especially having kids. You know, it's kind of 90 00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:53.759 something I just let go, and I think for good 91 00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:57.079 reason for a time in my life. But I'm starting 92 00:04:57.079 --> 00:04:59.519 to remember or to recognize that there is a lot 93 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:04.279 of almost literary potential in games that are written really well, 94 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:06.240 and I think that they engage us on a different 95 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:08.759 kind of level. And so I think that there's benefit 96 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:12.199 in getting into this and as well as just connecting 97 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:16.759 to a different niche community. And so if that interests you, 98 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:19.160 then go look up the Mythic mind Games podcast and 99 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:22.199 over there you're going to find an introductory episode, and 100 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:24.879 then also, hopefully by the time you're listening to this one, 101 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:27.800 the Kotore two The Knights of the Old Republic two 102 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:31.480 conversation will already be available over there. But for now, 103 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:34.360 let's go ahead and get into our Kodere one conversation. 104 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:37.000 Oh but real quickly, before we get started, my internet 105 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:40.319 was strangely spotted during this conversation and say, at one 106 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:44.240 point there's kind of a break and you'll probably pick 107 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:46.000 that up when you're listening, and I put a little 108 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:49.279 text que in there if you're watching this on YouTube. 109 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:50.920 All right, now, let's go ahead and get into this. 110 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:57.240 All right, welcome to Mythic mind as where you continue 111 00:05:57.279 --> 00:05:59.600 our Star Wars series, this time talking about Knights of 112 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:02.199 the Older public. And in many ways, this idea is 113 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:07.399 what spawned this entire series. Josh and I just had 114 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:12.439 some back and forth comments on somebody else's tweet that was, 115 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:15.600 you know, related to to Kotor, and we just decided to, 116 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:18.399 you know what, if we talked about this game sometime 117 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:21.079 and out of that, I decided, why not, why not 118 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:23.879 do a whole Star Wars series. So that's really the 119 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:26.360 origin sorty of this whole thing that we're doing here. 120 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:31.079 And I'm I'm excited about this. This is it's kind 121 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:36.040 of a fan favorite game in the Star Wars gaming community. 122 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:38.560 I mean, in my reckoning, it's one of the best 123 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:41.240 things to come out of the franchise since the original series. 124 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:44.439 It's something that I returned to every few years or so, 125 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:49.759 and I think that I think we'll start as we 126 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:52.079 more or less as we did last time, and just 127 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:56.519 talking about our own background experience with the game. You know, 128 00:06:57.360 --> 00:06:59.160 kind of you don't have to go in super detail, 129 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:01.439 but you know, basic why you in this conversation. That's 130 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:03.920 really what I'm asking there, And so let's let's start 131 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:06.240 with that, just kind of going around and you know, 132 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:08.399 I'll say on my end, you know, like I said, 133 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:11.720 I I enjoyed the game when it came out, and 134 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:15.240 was it two thousand and three, so it's quite a 135 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:18.399 while ago, but I come back to it every few 136 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:21.480 years because I just think it's so gripping in a 137 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:26.839 story level. It's it's philosophically engaging, especially for you know, 138 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:31.160 a a game that came out at a time when 139 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:34.439 I mean, I think over time, stories have developed a 140 00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:35.720 lot more in games. 141 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:36.279 I mean that. 142 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:41.560 That's that's you know, cutting a lot short. But I 143 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:44.759 think that we deal with some interesting ideas regarding identity. 144 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:48.040 I think we've run into some interesting ideas regarding like 145 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:50.480 even like the Star Wars concept of the light and 146 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:52.800 the dark side. I think that there's a lot there 147 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:56.160 that often gets overlooked simply on the entertainment level. But 148 00:07:56.360 --> 00:07:57.920 that's kind of vague. What We'll get more detail, but 149 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:00.319 I want to hear from everyone else here first. We'll 150 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:02.279 just go around here, Josh Whan, you tell us a 151 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:03.480 little bit about why you're here. 152 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:07.839 Sure. So as far as my background with Star Wars, 153 00:08:08.120 --> 00:08:10.079 I don't remember the first time I saw the original 154 00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:14.160 trilogy because I just grew up watching them, so I 155 00:08:14.199 --> 00:08:16.839 have no memory of seeing any of the first three 156 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:19.279 movies for the first time. My dad saw them when 157 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:21.600 they they came out in theater as he was, you know, 158 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:24.120 a young man, so he was always a fan. Showed 159 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:27.480 them to me and my older siblings. So it's kind 160 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:29.240 of really my background with Star Wars I was. I 161 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:32.240 was a child when the prequels came out, so I 162 00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:37.159 saw those in theater myself. But as far as Cotur, obviously, 163 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:39.799 I was also a child when these two games came out, 164 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:46.080 and my brother got co Tor one for the original 165 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:49.120 Xbox in two thousand and three. He's a couple of 166 00:08:49.159 --> 00:08:50.919 years older than me, so I don't know if my 167 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:53.840 parents would have gotten it for me based on my age, 168 00:08:53.879 --> 00:08:57.399 but being a younger sibling as that works sometimes I 169 00:08:57.440 --> 00:08:59.519 was able to I was able to play that I 170 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:01.440 was about eight years old, I think when it came out, 171 00:09:02.360 --> 00:09:04.200 and it was it was pretty challenging for me as 172 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:06.639 an eight year old just like you know, totally new, 173 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:09.519 totally new world. I never played like, you know, Dungeons 174 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:12.440 and Dragons or never Winter Nights or anything like that, 175 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:15.639 so I didn't really understand the system. But the idea 176 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:18.600 of actually freely exploring a Star Wars world and being 177 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.200 able to choose my own pathway and dialogue options was 178 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:26.159 really interesting to me. But I, like you, Andrew, I've 179 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:30.679 returned to this game and especially the second one as well, 180 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:34.480 throughout really my adult life, so basically every few years 181 00:09:34.519 --> 00:09:37.639 as well, continue just to find them to be really 182 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:43.720 just a rich, literary and even philosophical experience. As I 183 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:46.120 play through these, I think what these games really do 184 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:50.000 well is I think I always feel like one of 185 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:51.759 the best of not the best parts of Star Wars 186 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:54.759 is the world building in it. It's just one of 187 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:58.120 the coolest worlds, certainly like for a sci fi or 188 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:00.480 a space opera however you want to class fi it, 189 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:04.000 I think just the aesthetics, the technology, the way that 190 00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:07.919 you know, stormtroopers and clone troopers look and the concept 191 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:12.360 of a Jedi, everything about it really has a great 192 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:14.559 foundation to work. But I think what Cotor does so 193 00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:18.399 successfully is it takes what the foundation of the original 194 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:23.840 trilogy built and it tells stories within that world and 195 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:27.720 expanse upon it so well. But I think that's really 196 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:30.039 one of the reasons I returned to these games so much. 197 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:33.399 But also I just think they're really interesting to play 198 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:36.559 through in just the replay value of making different choices 199 00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:38.840 in really seeing how that plays out. So I'm a 200 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:42.399 huge fan of these games. Really my favorite things that 201 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:45.399 have ever occurred in the Star Wars universe personally, So 202 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.399 that's really my background with them. 203 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:50.360 Well, and I asked some follow up to some of that, 204 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:54.679 but I want to I want to hear from everybody first, So, uh, David, 205 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:55.919 tell us a little bit about why you're here, and 206 00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:57.279 by the way, it's going to see you again that 207 00:10:57.480 --> 00:10:59.679 you haven't I think been here since the Lewis course, 208 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:01.720 so it's about a year or so, so good to 209 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:04.039 have you back. Yeah, tell us a little bit about 210 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:05.519 you know, why you're here, why you're interested in this. 211 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:07.279 Yeah, I'm glad to be here. 212 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:11.200 Yeah, I uh, and I missed the other Star Wars discussion, 213 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:15.159 so I'll just say I was three when the original 214 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:17.919 A New Hope came out in theaters, and I remember 215 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:21.480 seeing that From that first viewing, all I really remember 216 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:23.039 is that the sand people scared me. 217 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:26.039 But I still you know, I loved Star Wars as 218 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:26.679 a child. 219 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:30.480 And saw Empire Strikes Back at the theater at least 220 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:33.279 a dozen times when I was six, and spent three 221 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:36.639 years thinking that Darth Vader was surely not telling Luke 222 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:38.799 the truth, that he couldn't really be his dad, this 223 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:42.840 horrible bad guy, you know. So yeah, I grew up 224 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:45.440 loving those and you know, I'm the guy who's got 225 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:49.200 the original laser disc set of all of the original 226 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:52.799 trilogy and without any of the later editions and that 227 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:57.039 sort of thing. But and I played. I've always been 228 00:11:57.320 --> 00:11:59.399 a video gamer, so I've played a lot of Star 229 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:02.720 Wars games over the years, and mostly you know, they 230 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:06.600 were action oriented and based on those three movies or 231 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:10.200 later other movies, you know, pod racing and things like that. 232 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:14.679 But Kodor was really the first time where it was 233 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:18.519 they could really tell some story, a unique story. I mean, 234 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:21.840 you know, they had some of the Jedi Outcast games 235 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:23.720 and Dark Forces and things told a little bit of 236 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:28.720 a different story about tangential characters. But I was really 237 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:33.159 excited to have an RPG sort of a game in 238 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:36.440 the Star Wars universe, so I'm fairly positive. I pre 239 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:39.279 ordered it for my Xbox when it came out, so 240 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:46.440 I haven't Honestly, I've not had a complete playthrough again 241 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:49.799 since it originally came out, so my memory of it 242 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:53.519 is not super detailed. There's high points and aspects of 243 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:56.240 the gameplay, and I've i played it again some with 244 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:58.879 my son. He hasn't completed it either, but he has 245 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:02.039 been playing through it a bit recently. But yeah, and 246 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:08.000 I loved the next one. I haven't played the online game, 247 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:10.320 but I saw you guys talking on Twitter about how 248 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:13.559 it's fantastic, so I may have to try to look 249 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:16.360 at that at some point, but yeah, that's my experience. 250 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:20.559 Cool, And yeah, we will do a follow up on 251 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:22.440 the second game, which I feel like is a little 252 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:25.799 bit more philosophical in nature than the first one, so 253 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:30.159 that'll be fun. But yeah, and again I'll fall up 254 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:31.960 in a little bit. Ian go ahead and tell us 255 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:33.600 a little bit about your your experience here. 256 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:40.000 Yeah, I didn't actually play that many video games as 257 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:45.480 a kid, just some PC games. I was the oldest 258 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:48.559 of eight kids, so my parents didn't really let us 259 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:52.080 have a lot of things that could have higher ratings, 260 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:55.320 because if I played something that all my little siblings 261 00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:56.960 have want to play something, and they didn't want to 262 00:13:56.960 --> 00:13:59.240 have to deal with, well, you can play this, but 263 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:01.120 your siblings can't, So they just tried to keep. 264 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.080 Us all at a kind of PG level. 265 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:08.360 When I got to college, my roommate my senior year 266 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:12.840 had an Xbox and I actually played Kotor two first 267 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:14.919 the week I was supposed to be studying for the 268 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:19.080 gre and I played thirty four hours that week and 269 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:24.159 still did reasonably well on the test, thankfully. But I 270 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:28.240 got the PC version of both Kotor and Kotor two 271 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:35.639 my next semester and played through those, and as David mentioned, 272 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:37.440 you know, you had your Jedi outcast, you had your 273 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:41.960 Dark Forces. But I really think that nice to the 274 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:45.240 Little Republic and then the Old Republic allow you to 275 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:48.320 live in the Star Wars galaxy much more than those games. 276 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:51.480 Those games are very linear. I think they have pretty 277 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:53.799 small levels and you don't have a lot of character 278 00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:58.120 interactions where you have any control of who you are 279 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:02.080 as a character, your character says what is scripted, whereas 280 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:05.080 in nice ye Old Republic you generally have at least 281 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:07.559 free options. You have your nice or light side option 282 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:09.960 and your dark side option, and you're kind of a 283 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:14.200 neutral option or maybe an unexpected or funny option, and 284 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:17.639 that allow ability to shape your character I think allows 285 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:21.480 you to feel immersed in a way that, even though 286 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:23.720 it doesn't have like the immediacy of a first person 287 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:27.720 shooter gameplay, I feel like I've lived in Star Wars 288 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:30.720 more in the nice Little Public series and the Old 289 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:35.320 Republic much more than any Battlefront Tour first person shooter 290 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:35.919 type game. 291 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:45.720 All Right, So where I just cut off, Ian was 292 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:50.679 saying how immersive Kotor was, and that's where I lost 293 00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:52.759 did you. I don't know how far you went after that? 294 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:55.600 No, that was That was my main point. 295 00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:57.840 Is I feel like one of the reasons that I 296 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.960 think Kotor and the two sequels, I consider the Old 297 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:05.600 Republic a sequel as well, why they're so beloved still. 298 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:07.399 I mean, there's a ton of. 299 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:09.200 Games from two thousand and three and two thousand and 300 00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:12.360 four and five that are not remembered at all these 301 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:14.960 games I think are remember because you feel like you 302 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:18.240 live because you interacted with characters. You you formed these 303 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:21.639 relationships and you made decisions that change the fate of 304 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:23.919 the galaxy. It wasn't just I shoot a bunch of 305 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:24.440 things and I. 306 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:29.440 Went, yeah, I think that's right, that that choice dynamic. 307 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:30.960 The fact that you can change the ending, you can 308 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:33.879 change the relationships you have. I mean, yeah, I guess 309 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:36.799 spoilers are okay at this point, but I mean the 310 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:38.519 fact that you can, you know, kill off half your 311 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:40.279 party at the end if you decide to go that 312 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:43.399 route uh in in you know, pretty awful ways. I 313 00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:45.840 mean how you can like, you know, make make Zalbar 314 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:49.759 kill mission for you like it's it can get pretty dark, 315 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:53.559 which you know does make me wonder, like one of 316 00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:55.440 the things that makes this game great, what makes you know, 317 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:58.039 the kind of BioWare models so great is the fact 318 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:00.159 that you can, you know, make all these choices is 319 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:02.679 to shape the story that you're that you're living through. 320 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:06.599 Is it okay to be the bad guy? Like like 321 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:09.599 it's It's something that I don't really struggle with, but 322 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:13.079 I do find that more often than not, when I 323 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:17.400 get the choice, I end up going the dark path, 324 00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:20.000 you know, whether it be this game or Elder Scrolls 325 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:23.359 or whatever. I usually am a bad guy, and I 326 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.400 wonder what that says about me, And so, you know, 327 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:28.680 I do wonder, like, do do we just totally disconnect 328 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:31.839 ourselves from the you know, the game that we're playing, 329 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:33.880 or like, I don't know, I don't know what do 330 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:34.519 we think about that? 331 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:41.200 I think about that some, like especially on online games, 332 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:43.359 like if you're a bad guy in an online game, 333 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:46.559 you are still actually making moral choices that affect another 334 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:50.799 human being. Like I remember the old Ultimate Online would 335 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:53.079 let you be a thief and you could literally steal 336 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:55.480 things that someone had worked hard for right out of 337 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:58.319 their pocket. But at the same time, I'm thinking, but 338 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:00.519 it's a game, and these are part of the rules 339 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.200 of the game. But I still you know, when I 340 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:06.680 was playing that I would try to only steal from 341 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:09.039 people who were player killers, you know, like some kind 342 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.160 of a Robin Hood sort of an idea. But to 343 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:14.640 your point, and you said that you tend to gravitate 344 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.000 towards playing a bad guy in these games, I I have. 345 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:18.640 Trouble doing that. 346 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:22.000 I always play the good guy, and I I do 347 00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:24.480 feel like It's harder to be the bad guy in 348 00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:26.200 these games a lot because a lot of times you 349 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:30.039 don't know, Okay, am I saying something mean? Or am 350 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:35.319 I turning down a quest or you know, not letting 351 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:37.720 this person join my team? Like I want everyone on 352 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:39.480 my team. I want to do all the quests, but 353 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:42.519 I also want to be a bad guy. But you know, 354 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:46.839 I'm being the good guy. It usually doesn't come with 355 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.359 some of the costs that that being a moral person 356 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:54.000 would have in real life. You know, in a game, 357 00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:55.960 you may you may turn down a little bit of 358 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:59.480 money or something from from a character when you you know, 359 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:02.839 you found their cat or whatever it was, But it 360 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:06.119 doesn't have the things that come back to bite you 361 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.440 as much for being villain as often as they do. 362 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:10.799 I mean by aware they try to do. 363 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:13.480 That mass effect has some of that where you might 364 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:18.640 make a morally bad choice early on that two games 365 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.559 later comes back to bite you. And I appreciate the 366 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:25.000 attempts that they try to make at that, But yeah, 367 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:27.240 it's okay to be a bad guy in a story. 368 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:29.400 You can't have a story without the bad guy, right. 369 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:33.799 Plus, in a game like Star Wars, I mean, you 370 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.319 get all the cool powers if you're bad, right, the 371 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:39.359 lightning and I mean the you know, the force persuasion 372 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:42.720 that's usually a bad thing in these games. It's just 373 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:46.039 I don't know, it's a lot cooler, all right, So 374 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:48.319 I feel exonerated. It's okay to be a bad guy 375 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:53.960 in games. Well, I mean, Josh, what do you think 376 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.799 is something that's I mean, maybe philosophically compelling about this game. 377 00:19:57.839 --> 00:19:59.559 I mean, obviously when we talk about a game that 378 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:02.240 has staying power, there's something real to it, right, something 379 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:04.640 that resonates with us. I mean, what's something things out 380 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:04.839 to you? 381 00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:10.400 Sure? So, I mean, uh, speaking just at an extremely 382 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:15.720 high level here, I mean, it's it's a game of 383 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:20.359 it's a game of ethical dilemmas, right, Like you're you 384 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:24.640 have a lot of you know, difficult decisions to make 385 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:30.559 that ultimately they have like consequences for you as a 386 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:32.519 player in the game, but also just for like how 387 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:35.079 the story plays out, right, And I think that was 388 00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:37.480 one of the unique interesting things that it was that 389 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:39.799 drew me to this kind of game, because that was 390 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:43.440 that was a new idea for me when I was 391 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:45.519 when when this game came out, I didn't really played 392 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:50.000 anything like that up to this point. But just like 393 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:54.279 the the I mean the overall theme that like choices matter. 394 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:56.920 I think that's that's really like a theme that plays 395 00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:59.079 throughout the game and it's kind of embedded into the 396 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:04.039 mechanics of the game itself. Right. So you encounter Juhani 397 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:06.920 in the dan tu Weien grove, right, and it's like, 398 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.359 this is a playable party member that you can potentially 399 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:14.240 have in your party for the rest of the game, right, 400 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:16.039 or as an option to have in your party for 401 00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:20.160