Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind, where we pursue wisdom
Speaker 1: in the past between primary secondary worlds. Andrew Snyder and
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you're here. Hey, they welcome. Today, I'm
Speaker 1: going to bring you a conversation I recently had with
Speaker 1: a few other patrons of the Mythic Mind community, and
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about Knights of the Old Republic,
Speaker 1: this great game from two thousand and three, and so,
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, it's a little bit of age, but
Speaker 1: there's a reason why we're still talking about it, the
Speaker 1: reason why this game continues to really be a fan favorite.
Speaker 1: It's one of the best things to come out of
Speaker 1: Star Wars since the original trilogy, and we talked a
Speaker 1: little bit about that in this conversation. If you haven't
Speaker 1: played it, I definitely recommend that you pick it up.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's gonna be allllle clunky, graphics, will
Speaker 1: be a little bit outdated, but you know, if you're
Speaker 1: someone who can play over games, you can get through
Speaker 1: some of that dimension, then is definitely still going to
Speaker 1: be worth your time. And also, I have something really
Speaker 1: exciting to announce. So you may have noticed that if
Speaker 1: you've been listening to the show for a little while,
Speaker 1: that we're starting to branch off in all kinds of
Speaker 1: new directions, right. I mean, here we're talking about you know,
Speaker 1: two thousand and three video game, We're talking about Star
Speaker 1: Wars movies and beyond, we're talking about literature, or we've
Speaker 1: got our book club going on, and there are a
Speaker 1: number of other things that are in the works behind
Speaker 1: the scenes. And so with so many interests, right, I
Speaker 1: have so many interests, and then when you broaden that
Speaker 1: out to the mythic mind fellowship, right, there are so
Speaker 1: many interests at play here, so many different domains of
Speaker 1: knowledge of expertise. And part of what mythic mind is
Speaker 1: about is about about bringing all these things together to
Speaker 1: demonstrate that wherever you turn, that that wisdom is crying
Speaker 1: out in the marketplace. In wisdom has a way of
Speaker 1: bringing together apparently discordant realities. And so I believe that
Speaker 1: there is a lot of benefit in looking at philosophy
Speaker 1: of proper in studying theology, in applying our minds to
Speaker 1: video games, to books, to literature, to movies to shows. Right,
Speaker 1: these are all potentially fruitful domains of engagement. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, I recognize that not everybody not that
Speaker 1: not all of our listeners are going to be interested
Speaker 1: in all these different domains, and so instead of putting
Speaker 1: everything together into one podcast, especially for the public feed,
Speaker 1: we're going to be splintering this off into a few
Speaker 1: different podcasts. I mean, we'll break it off one at
Speaker 1: a time, but eventually I would love to have a
Speaker 1: whole network of Mythic Mind podcasts devoted to you know,
Speaker 1: have one that's just devoted to literature, to our book clubs,
Speaker 1: one that's just devoted to philosophy proper, one that's just
Speaker 1: devoted to video games or shows in movies. And I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily intend to be leading all these myself, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll probably have a part in launching them. But my
Speaker 1: desire is that as we continue to develop these new shows,
Speaker 1: these new avenues, that they really do become increasingly communal affairs.
Speaker 1: Through the Mythic Mind Fellowship, and we have over fifty
Speaker 1: patrons in this community, and not all of them are
Speaker 1: actively engaged in producing content, but a number of them
Speaker 1: are to an increasing level. And so my intention is
Speaker 1: to start a number of shows and to make them
Speaker 1: community efforts, and eventually to hand off the rains entirely
Speaker 1: that way, I'm not playing such an active role in
Speaker 1: all these different directions I once. I mean, it'd be
Speaker 1: fun if I could, but I don't have the capacity
Speaker 1: for that, at least not until we are at significantly
Speaker 1: higher levels of patronage. And so I'm excited to announce
Speaker 1: our first Splinter show, which is going to be based
Speaker 1: around philosophy and video games. We're simply going to call
Speaker 1: it Mythic mind Games. And if all goes according to play,
Speaker 1: and it should already be available by the time you're
Speaker 1: listening to this episode, So go look up Mythic mind
Speaker 1: Games and if it's not available, then it will be
Speaker 1: really soon. And sometimes it takes a little bit for
Speaker 1: new shows to populate it. So just depending on how
Speaker 1: the timeline sings up here, it's either available right now
Speaker 1: as you're listening to this, especially if you're listening to
Speaker 1: through the public feed, or it'll be available very soon.
Speaker 1: That's gonna be the Mythic Mind Games podcast. And this
Speaker 1: is gonna be a way to just engage in this
Speaker 1: this new medium, new to us medium of you know,
Speaker 1: getting into especially like role playing games, getting into the
Speaker 1: stories that they provide and I think that there's a
Speaker 1: lot of benefit there. I think there's a way to
Speaker 1: connect to a lot of people. Now I've mentioned before that,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not somebody who, at least for the
Speaker 1: last decade or so it has played a lot of
Speaker 1: video games. I've played a lot in my youth, but
Speaker 1: you know, since getting married, since getting you know, into
Speaker 1: various jobs, especially having kids. You know, it's kind of
Speaker 1: something I just let go, and I think for good
Speaker 1: reason for a time in my life. But I'm starting
Speaker 1: to remember or to recognize that there is a lot
Speaker 1: of almost literary potential in games that are written really well,
Speaker 1: and I think that they engage us on a different
Speaker 1: kind of level. And so I think that there's benefit
Speaker 1: in getting into this and as well as just connecting
Speaker 1: to a different niche community. And so if that interests you,
Speaker 1: then go look up the Mythic mind Games podcast and
Speaker 1: over there you're going to find an introductory episode, and
Speaker 1: then also, hopefully by the time you're listening to this one,
Speaker 1: the Kotore two The Knights of the Old Republic two
Speaker 1: conversation will already be available over there. But for now,
Speaker 1: let's go ahead and get into our Kodere one conversation.
Speaker 1: Oh but real quickly, before we get started, my internet
Speaker 1: was strangely spotted during this conversation and say, at one
Speaker 1: point there's kind of a break and you'll probably pick
Speaker 1: that up when you're listening, and I put a little
Speaker 1: text que in there if you're watching this on YouTube.
Speaker 1: All right, now, let's go ahead and get into this.
Speaker 1: All right, welcome to Mythic mind as where you continue
Speaker 1: our Star Wars series, this time talking about Knights of
Speaker 1: the Older public. And in many ways, this idea is
Speaker 1: what spawned this entire series. Josh and I just had
Speaker 1: some back and forth comments on somebody else's tweet that was,
Speaker 1: you know, related to to Kotor, and we just decided to,
Speaker 1: you know what, if we talked about this game sometime
Speaker 1: and out of that, I decided, why not, why not
Speaker 1: do a whole Star Wars series. So that's really the
Speaker 1: origin sorty of this whole thing that we're doing here.
Speaker 1: And I'm I'm excited about this. This is it's kind
Speaker 1: of a fan favorite game in the Star Wars gaming community.
Speaker 1: I mean, in my reckoning, it's one of the best
Speaker 1: things to come out of the franchise since the original series.
Speaker 1: It's something that I returned to every few years or so,
Speaker 1: and I think that I think we'll start as we
Speaker 1: more or less as we did last time, and just
Speaker 1: talking about our own background experience with the game. You know,
Speaker 1: kind of you don't have to go in super detail,
Speaker 1: but you know, basic why you in this conversation. That's
Speaker 1: really what I'm asking there, And so let's let's start
Speaker 1: with that, just kind of going around and you know,
Speaker 1: I'll say on my end, you know, like I said,
Speaker 1: I I enjoyed the game when it came out, and
Speaker 1: was it two thousand and three, so it's quite a
Speaker 1: while ago, but I come back to it every few
Speaker 1: years because I just think it's so gripping in a
Speaker 1: story level. It's it's philosophically engaging, especially for you know,
Speaker 1: a a game that came out at a time when
Speaker 1: I mean, I think over time, stories have developed a
Speaker 1: lot more in games.
Speaker 2: I mean that.
Speaker 1: That's that's you know, cutting a lot short. But I
Speaker 1: think that we deal with some interesting ideas regarding identity.
Speaker 1: I think we've run into some interesting ideas regarding like
Speaker 1: even like the Star Wars concept of the light and
Speaker 1: the dark side. I think that there's a lot there
Speaker 1: that often gets overlooked simply on the entertainment level. But
Speaker 1: that's kind of vague. What We'll get more detail, but
Speaker 1: I want to hear from everyone else here first. We'll
Speaker 1: just go around here, Josh Whan, you tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about why you're here.
Speaker 3: Sure. So as far as my background with Star Wars,
Speaker 3: I don't remember the first time I saw the original
Speaker 3: trilogy because I just grew up watching them, so I
Speaker 3: have no memory of seeing any of the first three
Speaker 3: movies for the first time. My dad saw them when
Speaker 3: they they came out in theater as he was, you know,
Speaker 3: a young man, so he was always a fan. Showed
Speaker 3: them to me and my older siblings. So it's kind
Speaker 3: of really my background with Star Wars I was. I
Speaker 3: was a child when the prequels came out, so I
Speaker 3: saw those in theater myself. But as far as Cotur, obviously,
Speaker 3: I was also a child when these two games came out,
Speaker 3: and my brother got co Tor one for the original
Speaker 3: Xbox in two thousand and three. He's a couple of
Speaker 3: years older than me, so I don't know if my
Speaker 3: parents would have gotten it for me based on my age,
Speaker 3: but being a younger sibling as that works sometimes I
Speaker 3: was able to I was able to play that I
Speaker 3: was about eight years old, I think when it came out,
Speaker 3: and it was it was pretty challenging for me as
Speaker 3: an eight year old just like you know, totally new,
Speaker 3: totally new world. I never played like, you know, Dungeons
Speaker 3: and Dragons or never Winter Nights or anything like that,
Speaker 3: so I didn't really understand the system. But the idea
Speaker 3: of actually freely exploring a Star Wars world and being
Speaker 3: able to choose my own pathway and dialogue options was
Speaker 3: really interesting to me. But I, like you, Andrew, I've
Speaker 3: returned to this game and especially the second one as well,
Speaker 3: throughout really my adult life, so basically every few years
Speaker 3: as well, continue just to find them to be really
Speaker 3: just a rich, literary and even philosophical experience. As I
Speaker 3: play through these, I think what these games really do
Speaker 3: well is I think I always feel like one of
Speaker 3: the best of not the best parts of Star Wars
Speaker 3: is the world building in it. It's just one of
Speaker 3: the coolest worlds, certainly like for a sci fi or
Speaker 3: a space opera however you want to class fi it,
Speaker 3: I think just the aesthetics, the technology, the way that
Speaker 3: you know, stormtroopers and clone troopers look and the concept
Speaker 3: of a Jedi, everything about it really has a great
Speaker 3: foundation to work. But I think what Cotor does so
Speaker 3: successfully is it takes what the foundation of the original
Speaker 3: trilogy built and it tells stories within that world and
Speaker 3: expanse upon it so well. But I think that's really
Speaker 3: one of the reasons I returned to these games so much.
Speaker 3: But also I just think they're really interesting to play
Speaker 3: through in just the replay value of making different choices
Speaker 3: in really seeing how that plays out. So I'm a
Speaker 3: huge fan of these games. Really my favorite things that
Speaker 3: have ever occurred in the Star Wars universe personally, So
Speaker 3: that's really my background with them.
Speaker 1: Well, and I asked some follow up to some of that,
Speaker 1: but I want to I want to hear from everybody first, So, uh, David,
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about why you're here, and
Speaker 1: by the way, it's going to see you again that
Speaker 1: you haven't I think been here since the Lewis course,
Speaker 1: so it's about a year or so, so good to
Speaker 1: have you back. Yeah, tell us a little bit about
Speaker 1: you know, why you're here, why you're interested in this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I uh, and I missed the other Star Wars discussion,
Speaker 5: so I'll just say I was three when the original
Speaker 5: A New Hope came out in theaters, and I remember
Speaker 5: seeing that From that first viewing, all I really remember
Speaker 5: is that the sand people scared me.
Speaker 4: But I still you know, I loved Star Wars as
Speaker 4: a child.
Speaker 5: And saw Empire Strikes Back at the theater at least
Speaker 5: a dozen times when I was six, and spent three
Speaker 5: years thinking that Darth Vader was surely not telling Luke
Speaker 5: the truth, that he couldn't really be his dad, this
Speaker 5: horrible bad guy, you know. So yeah, I grew up
Speaker 5: loving those and you know, I'm the guy who's got
Speaker 5: the original laser disc set of all of the original
Speaker 5: trilogy and without any of the later editions and that
Speaker 5: sort of thing. But and I played. I've always been
Speaker 5: a video gamer, so I've played a lot of Star
Speaker 5: Wars games over the years, and mostly you know, they
Speaker 5: were action oriented and based on those three movies or
Speaker 5: later other movies, you know, pod racing and things like that.
Speaker 5: But Kodor was really the first time where it was
Speaker 5: they could really tell some story, a unique story. I mean,
Speaker 5: you know, they had some of the Jedi Outcast games
Speaker 5: and Dark Forces and things told a little bit of
Speaker 5: a different story about tangential characters. But I was really
Speaker 5: excited to have an RPG sort of a game in
Speaker 5: the Star Wars universe, so I'm fairly positive. I pre
Speaker 5: ordered it for my Xbox when it came out, so
Speaker 5: I haven't Honestly, I've not had a complete playthrough again
Speaker 5: since it originally came out, so my memory of it
Speaker 5: is not super detailed. There's high points and aspects of
Speaker 5: the gameplay, and I've i played it again some with
Speaker 5: my son. He hasn't completed it either, but he has
Speaker 5: been playing through it a bit recently. But yeah, and
Speaker 5: I loved the next one. I haven't played the online game,
Speaker 5: but I saw you guys talking on Twitter about how
Speaker 5: it's fantastic, so I may have to try to look
Speaker 5: at that at some point, but yeah, that's my experience.
Speaker 1: Cool, And yeah, we will do a follow up on
Speaker 1: the second game, which I feel like is a little
Speaker 1: bit more philosophical in nature than the first one, so
Speaker 1: that'll be fun. But yeah, and again I'll fall up
Speaker 1: in a little bit. Ian go ahead and tell us
Speaker 1: a little bit about your your experience here.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I didn't actually play that many video games as
Speaker 6: a kid, just some PC games. I was the oldest
Speaker 6: of eight kids, so my parents didn't really let us
Speaker 6: have a lot of things that could have higher ratings,
Speaker 6: because if I played something that all my little siblings
Speaker 6: have want to play something, and they didn't want to
Speaker 6: have to deal with, well, you can play this, but
Speaker 6: your siblings can't, So they just tried to keep.
Speaker 7: Us all at a kind of PG level.
Speaker 6: When I got to college, my roommate my senior year
Speaker 6: had an Xbox and I actually played Kotor two first
Speaker 6: the week I was supposed to be studying for the
Speaker 6: gre and I played thirty four hours that week and
Speaker 6: still did reasonably well on the test, thankfully. But I
Speaker 6: got the PC version of both Kotor and Kotor two
Speaker 6: my next semester and played through those, and as David mentioned,
Speaker 6: you know, you had your Jedi outcast, you had your
Speaker 6: Dark Forces. But I really think that nice to the
Speaker 6: Little Republic and then the Old Republic allow you to
Speaker 6: live in the Star Wars galaxy much more than those games.
Speaker 6: Those games are very linear. I think they have pretty
Speaker 6: small levels and you don't have a lot of character
Speaker 6: interactions where you have any control of who you are
Speaker 6: as a character, your character says what is scripted, whereas
Speaker 6: in nice ye Old Republic you generally have at least
Speaker 6: free options. You have your nice or light side option
Speaker 6: and your dark side option, and you're kind of a
Speaker 6: neutral option or maybe an unexpected or funny option, and
Speaker 6: that allow ability to shape your character I think allows
Speaker 6: you to feel immersed in a way that, even though
Speaker 6: it doesn't have like the immediacy of a first person
Speaker 6: shooter gameplay, I feel like I've lived in Star Wars
Speaker 6: more in the nice Little Public series and the Old
Speaker 6: Republic much more than any Battlefront Tour first person shooter
Speaker 6: type game.
Speaker 1: All Right, So where I just cut off, Ian was
Speaker 1: saying how immersive Kotor was, and that's where I lost
Speaker 1: did you. I don't know how far you went after that?
Speaker 7: No, that was That was my main point.
Speaker 6: Is I feel like one of the reasons that I
Speaker 6: think Kotor and the two sequels, I consider the Old
Speaker 6: Republic a sequel as well, why they're so beloved still.
Speaker 7: I mean, there's a ton of.
Speaker 6: Games from two thousand and three and two thousand and
Speaker 6: four and five that are not remembered at all these
Speaker 6: games I think are remember because you feel like you
Speaker 6: live because you interacted with characters. You you formed these
Speaker 6: relationships and you made decisions that change the fate of
Speaker 6: the galaxy. It wasn't just I shoot a bunch of
Speaker 6: things and I.
Speaker 1: Went, yeah, I think that's right, that that choice dynamic.
Speaker 1: The fact that you can change the ending, you can
Speaker 1: change the relationships you have. I mean, yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: spoilers are okay at this point, but I mean the
Speaker 1: fact that you can, you know, kill off half your
Speaker 1: party at the end if you decide to go that
Speaker 1: route uh in in you know, pretty awful ways. I
Speaker 1: mean how you can like, you know, make make Zalbar
Speaker 1: kill mission for you like it's it can get pretty dark,
Speaker 1: which you know does make me wonder, like one of
Speaker 1: the things that makes this game great, what makes you know,
Speaker 1: the kind of BioWare models so great is the fact
Speaker 1: that you can, you know, make all these choices is
Speaker 1: to shape the story that you're that you're living through.
Speaker 1: Is it okay to be the bad guy? Like like
Speaker 1: it's It's something that I don't really struggle with, but
Speaker 1: I do find that more often than not, when I
Speaker 1: get the choice, I end up going the dark path,
Speaker 1: you know, whether it be this game or Elder Scrolls
Speaker 1: or whatever. I usually am a bad guy, and I
Speaker 1: wonder what that says about me, And so, you know,
Speaker 1: I do wonder, like, do do we just totally disconnect
Speaker 1: ourselves from the you know, the game that we're playing,
Speaker 1: or like, I don't know, I don't know what do
Speaker 1: we think about that?
Speaker 5: I think about that some, like especially on online games,
Speaker 5: like if you're a bad guy in an online game,
Speaker 5: you are still actually making moral choices that affect another
Speaker 5: human being. Like I remember the old Ultimate Online would
Speaker 5: let you be a thief and you could literally steal
Speaker 5: things that someone had worked hard for right out of
Speaker 5: their pocket. But at the same time, I'm thinking, but
Speaker 5: it's a game, and these are part of the rules
Speaker 5: of the game. But I still you know, when I
Speaker 5: was playing that I would try to only steal from
Speaker 5: people who were player killers, you know, like some kind
Speaker 5: of a Robin Hood sort of an idea. But to
Speaker 5: your point, and you said that you tend to gravitate
Speaker 5: towards playing a bad guy in these games, I I have.
Speaker 4: Trouble doing that.
Speaker 5: I always play the good guy, and I I do
Speaker 5: feel like It's harder to be the bad guy in
Speaker 5: these games a lot because a lot of times you
Speaker 5: don't know, Okay, am I saying something mean? Or am
Speaker 5: I turning down a quest or you know, not letting
Speaker 5: this person join my team? Like I want everyone on
Speaker 5: my team. I want to do all the quests, but
Speaker 5: I also want to be a bad guy. But you know,
Speaker 5: I'm being the good guy. It usually doesn't come with
Speaker 5: some of the costs that that being a moral person
Speaker 5: would have in real life. You know, in a game,
Speaker 5: you may you may turn down a little bit of
Speaker 5: money or something from from a character when you you know,
Speaker 5: you found their cat or whatever it was, But it
Speaker 5: doesn't have the things that come back to bite you
Speaker 5: as much for being villain as often as they do.
Speaker 4: I mean by aware they try to do.
Speaker 5: That mass effect has some of that where you might
Speaker 5: make a morally bad choice early on that two games
Speaker 5: later comes back to bite you. And I appreciate the
Speaker 5: attempts that they try to make at that, But yeah,
Speaker 5: it's okay to be a bad guy in a story.
Speaker 5: You can't have a story without the bad guy, right.
Speaker 1: Plus, in a game like Star Wars, I mean, you
Speaker 1: get all the cool powers if you're bad, right, the
Speaker 1: lightning and I mean the you know, the force persuasion
Speaker 1: that's usually a bad thing in these games. It's just
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's a lot cooler, all right, So
Speaker 1: I feel exonerated. It's okay to be a bad guy
Speaker 1: in games. Well, I mean, Josh, what do you think
Speaker 1: is something that's I mean, maybe philosophically compelling about this game.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously when we talk about a game that
Speaker 1: has staying power, there's something real to it, right, something
Speaker 1: that resonates with us. I mean, what's something things out
Speaker 1: to you?
Speaker 3: Sure? So, I mean, uh, speaking just at an extremely
Speaker 3: high level here, I mean, it's it's a game of
Speaker 3: it's a game of ethical dilemmas, right, Like you're you
Speaker 3: have a lot of you know, difficult decisions to make
Speaker 3: that ultimately they have like consequences for you as a
Speaker 3: player in the game, but also just for like how
Speaker 3: the story plays out, right, And I think that was
Speaker 3: one of the unique interesting things that it was that
Speaker 3: drew me to this kind of game, because that was
Speaker 3: that was a new idea for me when I was
Speaker 3: when when this game came out, I didn't really played
Speaker 3: anything like that up to this point. But just like
Speaker 3: the the I mean the overall theme that like choices matter.
Speaker 3: I think that's that's really like a theme that plays
Speaker 3: throughout the game and it's kind of embedded into the
Speaker 3: mechanics of the game itself. Right. So you encounter Juhani
Speaker 3: in the dan tu Weien grove, right, and it's like,
Speaker 3: this is a playable party member that you can potentially
Speaker 3: have in your party for the rest of the game, right,
Speaker 3: or as an option to have in your party for
Speaker 3: the rest of the game, And you can not show
Speaker 3: mercy to her and literally kill her and she's never
Speaker 3: available again the rest of the when she just dies there.
Speaker 3: This is see Dantuine's what the second like, I guess
Speaker 3: it depends on the or No, it's the second planet
Speaker 3: the game because you have to go there after terrorists.
Speaker 3: So it's like this is like pretty early in the
Speaker 3: game and you just you just killed somebody who has
Speaker 3: the potentiality to be in your party for the rest
Speaker 3: of the game. Right, So it's like the it shows
Speaker 3: you that the consequences of your actions really matter there
Speaker 3: and there's something there's something even within each of these interactions.
Speaker 3: It's philosophical, right, Like is it is it justifiable to
Speaker 3: kill Jowhani?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: Like is it you know the classic like whin do
Speaker 3: you align with? Like Emperor Palpatine and episode three, Like
Speaker 3: it's like he's too dangerous to be left alive? Like
Speaker 3: is she too dangerous to be left alive? Or same
Speaker 3: with like Bastila when she you know, flips to the
Speaker 3: dark side after being uh in a tormented and enticed
Speaker 3: by Malik when she gets captured? Is she too dangerous
Speaker 3: to be left alive? And that's an even bigger question
Speaker 3: with Basila because just the the sheer potential and mastery
Speaker 3: she has, just she's she's the prodigy, right, Like she's
Speaker 3: naturally gifted, she's unbelievably talented with a light saber with
Speaker 3: the force, and it's like that's her being on the
Speaker 3: opposite side of you is scary, right, So you do
Speaker 3: you just do you kill her off?
Speaker 6: Like?
Speaker 3: Is that the better choice for not just you and
Speaker 3: your party, but for for the galaxy, for for everybody?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: Like those are the kind of dilemmas that you're actually
Speaker 3: faced with and thinking through in this And then I think,
Speaker 3: like I don't and maybe we can just like wait
Speaker 3: to get into this one, because it's obviously like a
Speaker 3: kind of a big talking point for Kotor one, but
Speaker 3: even the think about like what the message actually is
Speaker 3: with Revin And obviously that's like the big spoiler in
Speaker 3: the game, right is that like like that's you, the
Speaker 3: character you're playing, your your memory you got knocked out.
Speaker 3: Your memory was basically your memory of all these things
Speaker 3: is gone, like it's it's disappeared and vanished, and now
Speaker 3: you're playing through the game, and you know, what does
Speaker 3: that actually say about Revin? The fact that you were
Speaker 3: you know this this wicked uh sith Lord and you
Speaker 3: lost your memory and now you could potentially maybe it's
Speaker 3: through the influence of the party members that you interact with,
Speaker 3: or maybe it's other circumstances and factors that we could
Speaker 3: consider as well. But what actually causes Revin to be
Speaker 3: on the light side this time? Like how why does why?
Speaker 3: Like why doesn't revn end up the same way again?
Speaker 3: Or if you pick the dark side path, it's like
Speaker 3: Revan does just end up being the sith Lord again
Speaker 3: because you kill Malick and if you spare Bastola, she's
Speaker 3: basically just like your number one and she's number two, right,
Speaker 3: Like the Sith way, and so it's like, what is
Speaker 3: what are all these things saying about about Revin? It's
Speaker 3: like in the different pathways you choose, like, there's a lot.
Speaker 3: I think there's more to be explored with that than
Speaker 3: maybe anything else in this game personally, but I'll leave
Speaker 3: it at that for now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's definitely that tension between pragmatism and I don't know,
Speaker 1: virtue for the sake of virtue or or something of
Speaker 1: that nature, you know, of pity versus justice. Like those
Speaker 1: things definitely coming to play here, you know, when you're
Speaker 1: talking about like do you what do you do with Juhani? Now,
Speaker 1: unless I'm playing a Light Side character, I usually kill
Speaker 1: her because I don't find her very compelling. But that
Speaker 1: aside that, you know, there's that ongoing question or even
Speaker 1: like what the Jedi did to Revin, you know, is
Speaker 1: that moral in that they didn't just execute justice on him,
Speaker 1: they reprogrammed him like it. And you know, even so,
Speaker 1: even if he decides to choose the light Side, is
Speaker 1: he actually choosing the Light Side or is he just
Speaker 1: a pond of the Jedi? And at that level, like
Speaker 1: where does morality even fall here? I think at best,
Speaker 1: the decision to wipe his memory reprogramming him is questionable.
Speaker 1: It in many ways, it could be argued that they're
Speaker 1: just as pragmatic as Reven was when he runs off
Speaker 1: to the Mandalorian Wars and you know, essentially becomes Darth Reven,
Speaker 1: that he chose to do take the pragmatic approach of
Speaker 1: I need to secure this end even as the Jedi did.
Speaker 1: And then the question could be asked, are they even
Speaker 1: any different?
Speaker 6: And that's why I think it's so important that they
Speaker 6: include the character of Jolie, and I'd love to have
Speaker 6: an extended discussion about Jolie, what he believes, whether you
Speaker 6: agree with him as a person, as a player, and
Speaker 6: what does that mean for the meaning of the game.
Speaker 6: I mean, I think that there actually is a meaning
Speaker 6: of the game. I think that even though Ioware tries
Speaker 6: to make it fun for both good and evil playthroughs,
Speaker 6: I think that the light side playthrough is supposed to
Speaker 6: be the light side is supposed to be the choice
Speaker 6: that is right. It is not a world where good
Speaker 6: and evil are equal. But I guess that's kind of
Speaker 6: I guess I'm kind of jumping ahead of the discussion
Speaker 6: because I think Joelie asked us to step back and say, well,
Speaker 6: what is good? What is evil? Can you be Gray?
Speaker 6: I mean, that's kind of a really hot question, is
Speaker 6: can you be Gray?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree that he's definitely an interesting character. He
Speaker 1: to me, he's very much a Qui Gon kind of
Speaker 1: figure in that he's obviously a good guy. I mean,
Speaker 1: in the choice in the light in the dark, he's
Speaker 1: obviously on the light side, even though he's not in
Speaker 1: line totally with the Jedi, you know, even as Qui
Speaker 1: Gon was. And I think that these characters help us
Speaker 1: to recognize that the Jedi are not equivalent to the
Speaker 1: Light Side, that the Jedi are in order that are
Speaker 1: trying to devote themselves to the Light Side, at least
Speaker 1: that's their ideal, but they are, I mean, they're a human,
Speaker 1: fallible order. And I think there's plenty of room for
Speaker 1: even critiquing the Jedi code itself, recognizing that it is
Speaker 1: only good inasmuch as it reflects the good, which is
Speaker 1: not the same thing as the order itself. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of times, I think in the
Speaker 1: way we can oversimplify Star Wars, we just have, you know,
Speaker 1: the Jedi in the sith our stand ins for the
Speaker 1: light in the dark, and that's not exactly right. I
Speaker 1: don't think that's what Star Wars is meant to provide
Speaker 1: us with. And so I think that the Qui Gon character,
Speaker 1: I think that Joe lieb Bindo character, I think that
Speaker 1: they serve to demonstrate that we're dealing with good and evil,
Speaker 1: not simply Yin and yang. That this is not purely Machiavellian.
Speaker 1: And so I a Manichean is actually the order meant
Speaker 1: to use there Makiveli goes back to the pragmatism conversation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not entirely Manichean, and so yeah, I think that's
Speaker 1: that's largly what Julie provides to the discourse.
Speaker 2: At least that's what I think is his highlight.
Speaker 3: I think that's really my favorite. But replaying cot Or,
Speaker 3: I didn't get this when I was like eight to
Speaker 3: nine years old, right, But I think I replayed it
Speaker 3: when I was about eighteen. Ma'd be like, no, maybe
Speaker 3: like twenty twenty one, and you know, I did. I
Speaker 3: didn't know what I know now because it's been about
Speaker 3: ten years now. And then thankfully i'm you know, maybe
Speaker 3: a little bit smarter and wiser than I was when
Speaker 3: I was twenty, thankfully, But these type like the way
Speaker 3: it actually challenges that notion of you know, black and white,
Speaker 3: good and evil like that, you know, challenging the notion
Speaker 3: that like there's this Manichean duellist kind of construction to
Speaker 3: the Star Wars universe right where it's like the Jedi
Speaker 3: are the good guys. They like represent all that is
Speaker 3: substantially good. The Sith are they're they're the baddies. They
Speaker 3: represent everything that's substantially evil. Right, But that's challenged in Kotor,
Speaker 3: and it might be challenged in other places.
Speaker 2: I'm not.
Speaker 3: You know, super well versed in like the Star Wars
Speaker 3: Lord to be honest, as much as I just am
Speaker 3: with these games specifically, but that's what I was really
Speaker 3: drawn to replaying them as an adult. And well, I'll
Speaker 3: certainly save this for the next conversation, but I mean, like,
Speaker 3: nobody challenges those ideologies better than Kraa in the sense, right,
Speaker 3: And that's what I love about Koetor too so much.
Speaker 3: But you do see that with Jolie in a sense
Speaker 3: here taking like a good but like you know, neutral
Speaker 3: yet also good, Like he's somewhere on that spectrum right
Speaker 3: between like neutral and good. But he's got he's got
Speaker 3: a different perspective than than the Jedi order on what
Speaker 3: it you know, perhaps what it means to be good.
Speaker 3: And I think that's what's so he really opens up
Speaker 3: so many, so many ideas and ways to think about
Speaker 3: the philosophy of Star Wars, and that's I think the
Speaker 3: best part of these games for me personally.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I completely agree. I really appreciate that you highlight that.
Speaker 6: Even though Julie, you know, you can look at him
Speaker 6: from like a gameplay perspective. He's got the stats of
Speaker 6: a gray Jedi, and he's listed as gray. But if
Speaker 6: you listen to what he says, if you think about
Speaker 6: him as a character, he chooses kindness. He chooses to
Speaker 6: do the right thing. He's never interested in being like
Speaker 6: an ambiguous figure. He's not like sometimes it's okay to
Speaker 6: torture people and sometimes it's okay to be nice to
Speaker 6: People's that's never he says. The Jedi have the right goal,
Speaker 6: but the institution has rotted. The institution has corruption and
Speaker 6: self interest and institutional power at stake, so they want
Speaker 6: to keep their control, so they refuse to let you marry,
Speaker 6: they refuse to let you have your own splinter Jedi orders,
Speaker 6: And you can really look at that as kind of
Speaker 6: like a Catholic versus Reformation perspective on Christianity. Like Jolie
Speaker 6: and Qui Gon, as you point out, are very much
Speaker 6: the Martin Luther figure pointing out, no, you don't have
Speaker 6: to have celibate clergy, No, you don't have to have
Speaker 6: these things. You can marry and stilly committed to the good, which,
Speaker 6: of course, in our understanding is God. And I think
Speaker 6: you can see the light side of the force as
Speaker 6: also a divine a good in that sense and definitely
Speaker 6: not in a Yin and Yang perspective.
Speaker 7: And so.
Speaker 6: I think that's a really good thing to remember, because
Speaker 6: I think a lot of fanboys like to say, oh, well,
Speaker 6: I like to use sith lightning.
Speaker 7: But I also don't want to like be corrupted like
Speaker 7: Emperor Palpatine.
Speaker 6: I don't want to look ugly like it's a very
Speaker 6: superficial look at what gray means.
Speaker 7: And I think Andrew is absolutely right.
Speaker 6: It's not gray as in, you can be fifty percent
Speaker 6: good and fifty percent evils that you're rebelling against certain
Speaker 6: dogmatism of the Jedi order and seeing the Light as
Speaker 6: being not identical with the order. So I think that's
Speaker 6: a really good way of looking at Joey.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that what you said it does
Speaker 1: a good job of dispelling the myth of neutrality, that
Speaker 1: nothing really is neutral. And as as Augustine says, you
Speaker 1: are what you love, which is also a very platonic idea,
Speaker 1: obviously that it's not even so much where it is
Speaker 1: that you're situated, it's what are you facing, what are
Speaker 1: you moving toward. That's fundamentally what defines you. And obviously,
Speaker 1: in a Joey character, we see him moving toward the good.
Speaker 2: And I feel.
Speaker 1: Like in all these Star Wars conversations, I want to
Speaker 1: keep emphasizing that, you know, especially in the original series,
Speaker 1: and I think even beyond to some degree, although it
Speaker 1: gets a little bit more gray that they don't talk
Speaker 1: about in the first series, they don't talk about the
Speaker 1: light side of the Force, or at least they don't
Speaker 1: make it a substantial dualism between the lightside and the
Speaker 1: dark side. You just have the Force and then you
Speaker 1: have the dark side. It's the reality and the shadow,
Speaker 1: not too equally contrasting realities and even though I think
Speaker 1: the language surrounding that gets increasingly blurry as you go
Speaker 1: through developments in Star Wars, to the point where eventually
Speaker 1: it kind of sounds a little bit gein and yang
Speaker 1: at times, and the way that they talk about it,
Speaker 1: that's not where things began. And I feel like even
Speaker 1: in something like Kotor, where you have light side and
Speaker 1: dark side, that even still I think that it's framed
Speaker 1: essentially as the reality in the shadow what should be,
Speaker 1: versus an inversion of what should.
Speaker 2: Be of what's real.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think that the movement away from
Speaker 1: identifying light side strictly with the Jedi and making the
Speaker 1: Jedi under judgment of the light I think that that
Speaker 1: does a good job of demonstrating the fact that I
Speaker 1: think it's actually easier to understand Star Wars from a
Speaker 1: Christian perspective than from a strictly I don't know, zen
Speaker 1: Buddhist perspective. Even though like that's there and obviously an
Speaker 1: influence in Lucas himself and sort of starting things, I
Speaker 1: feel like that is less of a of a pillar
Speaker 1: of Star Wars then the more sort of Augustinian Platonic
Speaker 1: idea of the good. I think that Kotor demonstrates that
Speaker 1: if you're attentive to it. Not that I don't know
Speaker 1: if they have great philosophers who are writing these games,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but at least implicitly, I think that's
Speaker 1: what is the best way to frame the structure of
Speaker 1: the world. So what do we think of what happens
Speaker 1: with Revin? I mean, would you consider this redemption or
Speaker 1: oppression on behalf of you know, with the Jedi do
Speaker 1: to him? Assuming he you know, go light side of
Speaker 1: the story.
Speaker 6: Well, there's a lot of ways you can choose to
Speaker 6: do it you. I mean, I've thought about this, but
Speaker 6: I'm kind of an irreparable goody two shoes. I always
Speaker 6: do lifeside because it makes me feel bad to do
Speaker 6: your dark side. But I've thought if I were like
Speaker 6: a more intense role player, I could really see Revan
Speaker 6: going on an arc when he discovers the betrayal of
Speaker 6: the Jedi, he goes dark side, like he just fully
Speaker 6: loses any respect he has for these people. Alternatively, if
Speaker 6: you develop a relationship with Jolie and with Bastola, and
Speaker 6: you like buck the Jedi orthodoxy, I think that is
Speaker 6: a true redemption because it is him making choices. If
Speaker 6: you're just kind of mindlessly going, this is what I
Speaker 6: get for light side points, and I want the points.
Speaker 6: Of course that's not a redemption. But if you're forming
Speaker 6: the relationships and having a commitment to doing the right thing,
Speaker 6: I think that would be a relationship. And that's why
Speaker 6: it's a more immersive game than just good or bad points.
Speaker 5: Now I don't recall is is he really programmed or
Speaker 5: is he just tabula rossa? Because I know in video games,
Speaker 5: you know, they do lots of things to try and
Speaker 5: bring you into the story. You know, they'll make you know,
Speaker 5: like Gordon free doesn't talk, so you'll feel like Gordon
Speaker 5: Freeman in the Half Life games and things like that.
Speaker 5: But real common one is the character wakes up or
Speaker 5: the really common trope is the character has amnesia, and
Speaker 5: they do both of those in this one. So if
Speaker 5: they just made you a blank slate and you don't
Speaker 5: have the past experiences or whatever led him to become
Speaker 5: the reven that you're hearing stories about as you play
Speaker 5: the game, then I feel like it's just a story
Speaker 5: about what is it that makes us who we are?
Speaker 5: How do we become who we become? But yeah, if
Speaker 5: the Jedi literally programmed him in some way, then that
Speaker 5: would be problematic, but I don't remember exactly.
Speaker 4: How it was. You guys could speak to that.
Speaker 1: So even if they don't necessarily program him, they very
Speaker 1: least deprogrammed him in that, you know, they wipe his
Speaker 1: memory of being Darthur Evans. That way, maybe he does
Speaker 1: start with a tabula rasa, let's just start from the beginning.
Speaker 1: But that still raises the question, I mean, is this
Speaker 1: what we should try to do, like chemically or however
Speaker 1: with you know, gross criminals or you know, villains and
Speaker 1: that we are POWs and from the other side, like,
Speaker 1: you know, do we take the guandhanam obey inmtes and
Speaker 1: just start wiping the memories to give him a fresh start.
Speaker 1: I think that there's still some some moral questions to
Speaker 1: be raised on that level, for sure, And I mean
Speaker 1: I I don't really I don't really know, because I
Speaker 1: mean I feel like in the real world I would
Speaker 1: be able to come out pretty clearly and say no,
Speaker 1: that's that's not a good thing.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, maybe on the pragmatic level,
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 6: I think so much of this is my feelings about
Speaker 6: this are so tied to Koto Or two because Koto
Speaker 6: Or two is a direct sequel. It's very much about
Speaker 6: the fallout of the choices that the Jedi Order made
Speaker 6: in kotor What And I I don't want to come
Speaker 6: out and say kill all the Jedi, because That's not
Speaker 6: what I'm intending to say.
Speaker 7: But I do feel like the Jedi are.
Speaker 6: Revealed in Kodeoar one and Koteo War two because a
Speaker 6: lot of the Council members kind of have a crossover.
Speaker 6: They're revealed as as selfish and cold, and I would
Speaker 6: say the game intends us to be critical of that.
Speaker 7: I don't.
Speaker 6: I don't think that the Kotar games are particularly proh
Speaker 6: Jedi leadership at least.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's fair that we we are. I
Speaker 1: think we are called to question the institution, and like
Speaker 1: you said, I think that pick up even more so
Speaker 1: in kode War two. Looking back, you know, I kind
Speaker 1: of like the way that you framed the and the
Speaker 1: way that you framed the way the story could have
Speaker 1: gone where you know, after the revelation, you have Revin
Speaker 1: sort of maintain the light side, but move in a
Speaker 1: different direction, right, you can move against the institution to
Speaker 1: speak that led to this point while still maintaining fidelity
Speaker 1: to the Light, maybe even reforming it or you know,
Speaker 1: some splinter Jedi order or something. I think that would
Speaker 1: actually make a really compelling story, So I would be
Speaker 1: okay with them making some tweaks when they finally get
Speaker 1: around to the movie out of this. Well, let's see
Speaker 1: what else? Do you guys have anything else that you
Speaker 1: feel like bringing up here?
Speaker 6: Does anyone have any comments on like favorite characters, favorite interactions,
Speaker 6: or even favorite weapons, or like what makes the game
Speaker 6: play itself fun for you?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think one of my favorite exchanges is
Speaker 1: when you know, Basili's questioning you about some stuff, and
Speaker 1: I think it's if she's questioning you if you're starting
Speaker 1: to go dark side, and you can say that you're
Speaker 1: secretly a Hut in disguise trying to take over the galaxy.
Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite options.
Speaker 2: But I think my.
Speaker 1: Favorite character, I gotta go h K. It's just so iconic,
Speaker 1: so entertaining. I mean, he's so unique. I mean he's
Speaker 1: one of the first at least that I know of,
Speaker 1: like Star Wars droids with like real personality.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean that's gonna be my my.
Speaker 1: Number one, Josh, what do you have to say?
Speaker 3: Say a nice choice meat Peg, that's a yeah, that's
Speaker 3: a tough that's a tough one. I I mean, I
Speaker 3: love Candorous, but I love him more and even more
Speaker 3: like Kotar two. So I guess that's that's tied in.
Speaker 3: And you wanted to talk about Koetar too, So I'm
Speaker 3: gonna apologize and advance for that. But I mean I
Speaker 3: have kind of like I had thought about this not
Speaker 3: too long ago where I want to I don't know
Speaker 3: if anyone's ever done this, where they like play a game,
Speaker 3: where they've read a book or something, and I'm just
Speaker 3: gonna like trace this theme specifically as I like go
Speaker 3: through this or this this idea maybe not even necessarily
Speaker 3: a theme and kind of talking about like joe Lee
Speaker 3: makes me, you know, I want to want to re
Speaker 3: explore that a little more. And I'm almost thinking, like
Speaker 3: is he almost like you know, could Joey like almost
Speaker 3: in some way be influenced by like the like the
Speaker 3: nineteenth century like Transcendentalist movement in some way just like
Speaker 3: this this idea of like individualism and self reliance, like
Speaker 3: this sort of this love of nature, like I'm I'm
Speaker 3: drawing blanks here, so I'm not going to do an
Speaker 3: incredible idea of like explaining or exploring this because I
Speaker 3: haven't done it yet. But I mean he's basically like, right,
Speaker 3: he's like reserved himself to living living in a place
Speaker 3: that's full of nature. But he's really in like the
Speaker 3: the shadow the shadow area of that I can remember
Speaker 3: what it's called, like a shadow lands or whatever, like
Speaker 3: the bottom floor of a kashikh. But like it's it's
Speaker 3: almost like there's like this, there's possibly this is this
Speaker 3: transcendentalist approach that Joe Lee might have to the way
Speaker 3: of the Jedi, right, And I'm like, maybe maybe I'm
Speaker 3: totally off base and saying that, but I'm kind of
Speaker 3: thinking about that now as different ideas are popping in
Speaker 3: my mind and I had to explore it to really
Speaker 3: like actually like you know, put out a thesis and
Speaker 3: like actually consistently and coherently defend that. But there's there's
Speaker 3: something there right, like where it's like he's he's he's individualistic,
Speaker 3: like he's on his own, he's relying on himself, like
Speaker 3: he's often you know, he's he's off in nature in
Speaker 3: a sense, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I'm thinking.
Speaker 3: I'm thinking of, like, you know, maybe this is maybe
Speaker 3: there's like a there's a paper or something or a
Speaker 3: video topic here, right, Like it's like like Ralph Waldo
Speaker 3: Emerson and joe Lee Bindo. I don't know, maybe we'll
Speaker 3: we'll see, we'll see maybe.
Speaker 2: Forward here forthcoming up stack on this.
Speaker 3: It's an idea, right, Like, it's I gotta believe there's
Speaker 3: something there, but maybe maybe that'll inspire me to replay
Speaker 3: the game just for the purpose of looking into that.
Speaker 3: But I Joey's interesting, like he's like I've often thought
Speaker 3: like what if like we could just like get like,
Speaker 3: you know, a lengthy conversation where we could just like
Speaker 3: walk Joey Bindo and Kraya in a room together and
Speaker 3: just hear them talk about like the Jedi in the Sith.
Speaker 4: Like.
Speaker 3: That's that's all I want in the world, right, That's
Speaker 3: I just want that. And maybe we can like create
Speaker 3: like a fictional, uh like socratic dialogue between Joke Lee
Speaker 3: and if anybody that's smarter than me wants to do that,
Speaker 3: please do it. That'd be excellent.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I know David has some experience with
Speaker 1: AI creations, right, No.
Speaker 5: Don't don't saddle me with that, just just a little
Speaker 5: playing around. Yeah, well, I would say, yeah.
Speaker 4: I also loved that character h K forty seven.
Speaker 5: Doesn't he preface what he's saying with like an explanation
Speaker 5: of the kind of statement that he's making, right, okay, Yeah,
Speaker 5: and even if it's to his own detriment, he will
Speaker 5: say that there by a ware did that in Mass
Speaker 5: Effect as well, that there's a whole alien race called
Speaker 5: the Elcore who's unable to convey emotions to others. So
Speaker 5: they start every since, you know, with barely veiled sarcasm,
Speaker 5: and then they say whatever it is.
Speaker 4: You know. Uh so, yeah, I think they wanted to.
Speaker 5: Continue that idea, but yeah, I also liked some of
Speaker 5: the aspects, like the idea of the Star Wars universe
Speaker 5: having to invent bladed weapons that could parry a lightsaber,
Speaker 5: which of course is necessary for gameplay purposes, but it
Speaker 5: also makes sense in universe as well. In you may
Speaker 5: know from reading books if those kinds of ideas probably
Speaker 5: predated this game, but this was my first experience with
Speaker 5: that sort of a thing, and I'm just always fascinated
Speaker 5: with the attempts at morality systems in games, especially earlier attempts,
Speaker 5: because there there are always times where it says, okay
Speaker 5: that you made a you made an evil choice, and
Speaker 5: I'm like, now, wait a minute, if you just ask
Speaker 5: me to explain why I made that choice, I think
Speaker 5: I could explain why I did not think that was
Speaker 5: an evil choice. But also there's things like correct me
Speaker 5: with them if I'm wrong. But I think you can
Speaker 5: like make a deal to just enslave all the wookies
Speaker 5: in this game, and if you've you know, helped enough
Speaker 5: space old ladies across the space street, you're still a
Speaker 5: Jedi after doing that. And I think that that kind
Speaker 5: of just shows how the idea of morality being a
Speaker 5: balance of a scale just doesn't doesn't really work out.
Speaker 5: But I'm always fastned with seeing how games attempt to
Speaker 5: convey the importance of moral choices.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I agree that moralityism is sometimes really fun to game,
Speaker 6: and especially when you get to the second game where
Speaker 6: you can get your characters to influence other characters but
Speaker 6: their reality stays the same. But in the first game,
Speaker 6: I would say, one of my very favorite things is
Speaker 6: it really the squad mcanic. You always have your two companions. Now,
Speaker 6: some people go hard mode and just do one, but
Speaker 6: I really like having three characters. And here's a very
Speaker 6: rudimentary strategy. You'll have one character who's like very strong
Speaker 6: and very like your Wookie.
Speaker 7: You know, you have a Wookie.
Speaker 6: So they they go up and they're like in the
Speaker 6: faces of the other characters. And then you've got your
Speaker 6: other characters with blasters and they shoot from far away,
Speaker 6: and that way you can really get more damage done
Speaker 6: while keeping your more squishy characters safe. And so I
Speaker 6: like the way that that forces you to think in
Speaker 6: a more tactical and relational way because a lot of
Speaker 6: the characters are their personality kind of matches their character build.
Speaker 6: So I like the relational and character aspect to.
Speaker 7: That gameplay piece.
Speaker 6: And I would say my personal favorite character is Basola
Speaker 6: because I love seeing, you know, the perfect student thrust
Speaker 6: into the real world for the first time and they
Speaker 6: really struggle, like they're they're forced into all these emotions
Speaker 6: and things that the textbook didn't cover, and so I
Speaker 6: love how they they forced Basila through that experience and
Speaker 6: I definitely related to that myself. Plus, of course, Jennifer
Speaker 6: Hale's voice acting is superb.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they did do some interesting things with her, you know.
Speaker 1: I like even how she turned to the dark side.
Speaker 1: I think there's some significant stuff going on in that scene.
Speaker 1: How you know, he doesn't so much Malik when he
Speaker 1: captured her, doesn't so much threaten her, doesn't even entice
Speaker 1: her with like all the power she can have. I
Speaker 1: mean he does, but by inflicting it upon her, right,
Speaker 1: And so it's I mean it's a pretty dark psychology,
Speaker 1: but also dealing with some reality here that those who
Speaker 1: have suffered most can and potentially use that pain to
Speaker 1: then inflict upon others as a way of grasping at power.
Speaker 1: And so I think that they're doing something pretty significant
Speaker 1: there regarding I guess the nature of villainy that a
Speaker 1: lot of times those who are most likely to inflict
Speaker 1: pain on others are those who have suffered great pain
Speaker 1: themselves and they're latching out or they're reaching out for
Speaker 1: some kind of power of their own, and that takes
Speaker 1: the form of inflicting damage on other people. And so
Speaker 1: I think that they do some really significant things with
Speaker 1: Basila between just the you know, the diive student thrown
Speaker 1: out into the real world with you know, with great
Speaker 1: power and great potential and then as well as dealing
Speaker 1: with her fault to the dark side. I think that
Speaker 1: they do do a lot of interesting psychological things with
Speaker 1: the character of Bastola, So I would echo with that
Speaker 1: and saying that she's probably one of the more substantial characters,
Speaker 1: even though I just like HK.
Speaker 5: And I didn't remember that. Well, it's Jennifer Hale, right, Yeah,
Speaker 5: that she did her voice. She's she's probably the busiest
Speaker 5: voice actress in video games. And she's also the female
Speaker 5: commander Shepherd in Mass Effect, which is another I've mentioned
Speaker 5: him a lot. I know more about Mass Effect than
Speaker 5: I do about Kotor. I've played it a lot multiple times,
Speaker 5: but Andrew hasn't played it yet, so it'll be a while.
Speaker 4: Before we have a discussion on that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a discussion anytime.
Speaker 5: So we know.
Speaker 2: It is in my Steam library.
Speaker 1: I picked it up during a sale, but I've not
Speaker 1: made it there yet and I don't I don't know
Speaker 1: what I will, but I'll get there eventually. I got
Speaker 1: the off course with the Oblivion remaster, but hey, well
Speaker 1: anything else, you know, as we've pinted that, I think
Speaker 1: that we'll have more to deal with when we get
Speaker 1: to Kotor two. But is there anything else any of
Speaker 1: you want to say? Abou Kotor one?
Speaker 7: Oh?
Speaker 6: One more thing is the music for Kotor two is
Speaker 6: movie level, like Jeremy Soul's themes for Darth Mallick and
Speaker 6: Bastola and the Dan Tween. When you get onto Dan
Speaker 6: June and you're walking around, just the music that comes
Speaker 6: on is just glorious. It's it is an experience. And
Speaker 6: even though the gameplay is for sure twenty twenty five
Speaker 6: years old, now it's worth playing through.
Speaker 1: Yeah good, oh no, go ahead, no, yeah, I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna echo that. That is still it's a great experience.
Speaker 1: I mean, even though by today's standards, Yeah, the controls
Speaker 1: are kind of clunky, Like the whole system is kind
Speaker 1: of clunky by today's standards. But also I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's just because you know, I was
Speaker 1: there three thousand years ago, but it like, I like
Speaker 1: the tactical system of you know, you pause a playing
Speaker 1: all your moves from all your different characters and get
Speaker 1: everything to sync up well, like it's it's I don't know,
Speaker 1: I enjoy that. I think it's a good experience all
Speaker 1: around and esthetically as far, even like aesthetically, Yeah, the
Speaker 1: graphics are dated, but I mean, even that can be
Speaker 1: updated if you really want to. But I don't think
Speaker 1: it needs to. I think it's easy enough to get
Speaker 1: immersed whether or not you go that route. But what
Speaker 1: are you gonna say, David.
Speaker 5: Oh, his mention of Dantuene, I liked. I liked having
Speaker 5: an image of what Dantuine was like, you know, because
Speaker 5: Princess Leah mentions dant Wine as a lie about where
Speaker 5: the rebel bass is in the original movie, and so
Speaker 5: having this image of this kind of a plane's sort
Speaker 5: of a pastoral planet, I thought was pretty interesting. I
Speaker 5: was glad to have a little more depth added to
Speaker 5: just that throwaway place name from in earlier fiction.
Speaker 3: I was going to say, totally shifting gears here, if
Speaker 3: that's all right. But you talk about dark side paths
Speaker 3: and different things. I can see where you you might
Speaker 3: find a justification for killing Juhani or even you know,
Speaker 3: Bastilah in a sense, even on the light side path
Speaker 3: the best option. But where I really would draw my
Speaker 3: line here is dark side players helping Zurka Corporation. They're
Speaker 3: they're they're just they're just the worst. Honestly, like they're
Speaker 3: they're like, uh, like the bureaucrat and you know Alistair
Speaker 3: mcintires after virtue or like they're you know, there's probably
Speaker 3: parallels there with that hideous strength somewhere too, but they're
Speaker 3: just they're all about the profit, like with no considerations
Speaker 3: for the ramifications moralier on the effects of others as well.
Speaker 3: And I think I think, like you know, amidst dark
Speaker 3: words such as Darth Malik or you know, like nihilists,
Speaker 3: Scion even Krea or or Darth Treya and uh the
Speaker 3: second game as a villain and in doing things that
Speaker 3: are just morally evil all throughout the series, I think
Speaker 3: Zirca Corporation can really fly under the radar a bit
Speaker 3: there because they are I mean, there are a lot
Speaker 3: of just like the big companies that we we see
Speaker 3: today right where it's just like how do you maximize
Speaker 3: the bottom line without consideration of the overall well being
Speaker 3: of the common man in the lower class, right, It's
Speaker 3: like Zerka Corporation is they are the Star Wars version
Speaker 3: of that, at least in Kotor, and uh so, yeah,
Speaker 3: I can never help them, even if I even if
Speaker 3: I was going to play a dark side play through
Speaker 3: for experimentation. I'd be like that one of the hardest
Speaker 3: things for me to draw my line on, because I
Speaker 3: just you know, they're the worst. They're they're always trying
Speaker 3: to they're always trying to do unethical things for their
Speaker 3: own uh, for their own advances and profits.
Speaker 1: So just a thought, Well, Josh, I didn't know you
Speaker 1: were an anti capitalist.
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe what is capitalism?
Speaker 2: So that's gonna take us.
Speaker 3: Different explore different forms of capitalism here and compared to
Speaker 3: desserca corporation and you know the ethics of that. I'm
Speaker 3: all for capitalism. I'm I'm not for bureaucracy running America.
Speaker 3: I guess, let's put it that way.
Speaker 1: Okay, So so now we're cleaning up the deep state. Okay,
Speaker 1: I can't piny down. We're all over the place here. Uh,
Speaker 1: we'll save that for your next substack.
Speaker 3: All right, Well, there's probably two people that read that,
Speaker 3: so I don't know how much that matters.
Speaker 1: Well, I'll link it. Everyone will read it. It'll be good.
Speaker 3: Here's a blog for my substack, I guess shameless plug.
Speaker 2: Yes, Josh's substack. All right, anything else? Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So so next time we will get into kotor
Speaker 1: two deal with you know, all these stuff about you know, nihilism,
Speaker 1: and you know we do we want to destroy the
Speaker 1: Force or whatever. So we'll get there next time. But
Speaker 1: before we go, yeah, let's go ahead and plug anything
Speaker 1: you had to plug and so go go read Josh
Speaker 1: and Substack. I'll link that in the notes. Ian, go
Speaker 1: ahead and plug your show again.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I have a podcast called Reader to standing By, and
Speaker 6: that's about the X Wing novels and comics that are
Speaker 6: based on the video games. We don't actually talk about
Speaker 6: the video games much because I'm much more of a
Speaker 6: reader person. But if you like Star Wars, we talk
Speaker 6: a lot about the ethics because that's a big part
Speaker 6: of the X Wing series, and even about the Force
Speaker 6: sometimes because a couple of those pilots are Jedi.
Speaker 2: Perfect.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I go listen to Ian show, and David,
Speaker 1: I know you've got a platform that puts us all
Speaker 1: to shame, so you can go ahead and say something
Speaker 1: about what you have going on.
Speaker 5: I don't have a I'm just a husband and father
Speaker 5: and enjoyer of things, and when people are talking about
Speaker 5: video games, I want to be there. So that's all
Speaker 5: I've really got going on right now.
Speaker 2: This is very humble.
Speaker 1: All right, well, thanks everyone for joining us. Look forward
Speaker 1: to speaking with you next time about kotor Tu. But
Speaker 1: until then, may the force be with you. All right,
Speaker 1: thank you for listening or thank you for watching, and
Speaker 1: I hope that you enjoyed that conversation. I know that
Speaker 1: I did, and I really look forward to this new
Speaker 1: avenue that we're engaging with and dealing with philosophical engagement
Speaker 1: with video games. And so again, go and check out
Speaker 1: our other show, the Mythic Mind Games Podcast. I think
Speaker 1: that it's going to be and it's an exciting new venture.
Speaker 1: And like I said, eventually down the road, especially if
Speaker 1: this goes well, if this receives your support, this seems
Speaker 1: to be something people are interested in, then hopefully sooner
Speaker 1: rather than later, you know, we'll start developing the literature.
Speaker 2: Podcast, the philosophy podcast, and more.
Speaker 1: And if you want to be a part of this,
Speaker 1: right you want to lead a show, you want to
Speaker 1: be part of a show, you want to just support
Speaker 1: what we're doing, then I welcome your patronage over at
Speaker 1: patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind. The more support that
Speaker 1: I receive, the more time that I can spend in
Speaker 1: just bringing us into these new directions and taking the
Speaker 1: directions we're already going and taking them further and increasing
Speaker 1: quality and quantity of output. And thank you so much
Speaker 1: to all of you who are already patrons of mythic mind.
Speaker 1: And by name, I would like to thank all to
Speaker 1: your three patrons in higher so many things too, Mark Commanded, Chase, Chaz, Christopher, Clinton,
Speaker 1: David Don, Aaron Hevy, Jamie, Justin, Justin, Kyle, Paul, Roger,
Speaker 1: Ross Tyler, and William. This list keeps getting longer and longer,
Speaker 1: which is fantastic because it allows us to keep doing
Speaker 1: more and more and more and so again, I greatly
Speaker 1: appreciate your support, and I hope that more of you
Speaker 1: will consider joining us so that we can continue moving
Speaker 1: on this road. But that's it for now, until next time.
Speaker 2: God's been.
Speaker 1: I have always, at least ever since I can remember,
Speaker 1: had a kind of longing for death. It was when
Speaker 1: I was happiest that I longed most. It was on
Speaker 1: happy days when we were up in the hills, the
Speaker 1: three of us, with the wind and the sunshine, where
Speaker 1: you couldn't see Gloam or the palace. Do you remember
Speaker 1: the color and the smell and looking across at the
Speaker 1: gray mountain in the distance, and because it was so beautiful,
Speaker 1: it set me longing, always longing somewhere else there must
Speaker 1: be more of it. Everything seemed to be saying, Psyche, come,
Speaker 1: but I couldn't come, and I didn't know where I
Speaker 1: was to come to. It almost hurt me. I felt
Speaker 1: like a bird in a cage when the other birds
Speaker 1: of its kind are flying home. And now I will
Speaker 1: make answer to you, oh my judges, and show that
Speaker 1: he who has lived as a true philosopher has reason
Speaker 1: to be of good cheer when he is about to die,
Speaker 1: and that after death he may hope to receive the
Speaker 1: greatest good in the other world. For I deem that
Speaker 1: the true disciple of philosophy is likely to be misunderstood
Speaker 1: by other men. They do not perceive that he is
Speaker 1: ever pursuing death and dying. And if this is true, why,
Speaker 1: having had the desire of death all his life long,
Speaker 1: should he regret the arrival of that which he has
Speaker 1: always been pursuing and desiring. The longing of Plato and
Speaker 1: the control of the Stoics pervades Louis's retelling of the
Speaker 1: Cupid and Psyche myth until we have Faces with This
Speaker 1: incredible novel, which he believed to be his best, demonstrates
Speaker 1: the tensions in ancient thought, and even more significantly, the
Speaker 1: limits of rational philosophy, which can only go as deep
Speaker 1: as the foxes can dig. Beyond that, under that and
Speaker 1: providing the life of that thought, we find the dark
Speaker 1: and holy places that blind our faculties of reason. What then,
Speaker 1: shall we do? This is a topic that we will
Speaker 1: explore after first surveying some important philosophical contributions in the
Speaker 1: ancient world that have had some significant bearing on Lewis's
Speaker 1: great novel. To this end, we will begin with Plato's Phato,
Speaker 1: which discusses the immortality of the soul and what those
Speaker 1: who love wisdom might expect in the life to come.
Speaker 1: And then we'll spend four weeks with some of the
Speaker 1: great stoics, including Epictetus, Emperor, Marcus, Aurelius, and Seneca. Finally,
Speaker 1: we will turn our attention to till we have Faces
Speaker 1: for the final two weeks with original content, and so
Speaker 1: this will not be the same as what you may
Speaker 1: have seen in the fiction and philosophy of CS.
Speaker 2: Lewis. Course.
Speaker 1: Each week of this eight week study will include readings
Speaker 1: from primary sources that will be provided as PDFs, although
Speaker 1: these are all texts that belong in your personal library.
Speaker 1: You'll be provided with recommendations for secondary readings. You'll have
Speaker 1: recorded presentations for you to watch at your leisure, ongoing
Speaker 1: discord chats, and weekly live meetings to discuss the readings
Speaker 1: enrolled today by going to patreon dot com slash Mythic
Speaker 1: Mind and checking out the job or you can gain
Speaker 1: access to all courses, past, present and future this year
Speaker 1: by purchasing a Tier three annual subscription.
Speaker 2: I hope to see you there.