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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK.
Speaker 7: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 7: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 7: your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. Nine
Speaker 7: of the most controversial violent crimes in America's history are
Speaker 7: re examined in these compelling stories. True crime doctor Samuel
Speaker 7: Mudd set John Wilkes Booth's broken ankle, But was he
Speaker 7: actually part of the larger conspiracy to assassinate President Abraham Lincoln?
Speaker 7: Did Lizzie Borden bruly murder her own parents in Massachusetts?
Speaker 7: Was admitted Jihadis Zakari Musawi really involved in a terrorist
Speaker 7: plot to destroy the World Trade Center on September eleventh,
Speaker 7: two thousand and one. In a series of provocative and
Speaker 7: eye opening true crime investigations, author Fred Rosen revisits some
Speaker 7: of the most shocking and notorious crimes in America over
Speaker 7: the past two centuries to determine once and for all,
Speaker 7: did they really do it? Applying logic and techniques of
Speaker 7: modern criminology while re examining the crime scenes, official police records,
Speaker 7: in the original courtroom, testimonies of witnesses and the accused,
Speaker 7: Rosen explores nine infamous crimes that rocked the nation and
Speaker 7: the verdicts that were ultimately handed down. From fall and
Speaker 7: Julius Rosenberg's execution for treason to the kidnapping and killing
Speaker 7: of the Lindbergh baby to the klue Klux Klan slayings
Speaker 7: of three civil rights workers in Mississippi to nine eleven,
Speaker 7: the alleged perpetrators get another day in court as Rosen
Speaker 7: calls into question the circumstantial evidence and cultural context that
Speaker 7: may have determined guilt or innocence in each case. The
Speaker 7: book that we're featuring this evening is did they really
Speaker 7: do It?
Speaker 4: With my special guests, author and journalist Fred Rosen, Welcome
Speaker 4: back to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 4: agreeing this interview. Fred Rosen, Dan, it is.
Speaker 6: As usual a privilege to be on the radio with you.
Speaker 6: You are sure the best.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Fred, Thank you very much. It is always
Speaker 4: a great pleasure and fans have been clamoring for another
Speaker 4: little bit of Fred Rosen. So here we have you,
Speaker 4: and that is fine offering.
Speaker 6: Gee, if any even a woman, I'm available.
Speaker 4: Sorry, I'll let them know. I'll let them know. Good ahead,
Speaker 4: Let's get right into this because we've got a lot
Speaker 4: to cover you. We wanted to talk about another something
Speaker 4: that you're working on, that you're very excited about. Another
Speaker 4: what one once was thought to be just a normal
Speaker 4: death is now and you have discovered some information. So
Speaker 4: in the after the first hour we'll be talking about
Speaker 4: what has been very important and what you've been working on.
Speaker 4: So let's leave that for a little bit of suspense
Speaker 4: for the audience and let's get to did they really
Speaker 4: do it? What was what was the criteria that you used,
Speaker 4: what was the how did you choose these stories? And
Speaker 4: why did you want to use these stories? What did
Speaker 4: you want to convey in these stories?
Speaker 6: Well, that's a great question. First off, I love history,
Speaker 6: and this was an opportunity to use my skill set,
Speaker 6: to use a current term, to go back and take
Speaker 6: a look at famous cases in American criminal history and
Speaker 6: take a look at whether these individuals who were convicted
Speaker 6: of of of murder actually had done it. And so
Speaker 6: what I was doing here was I was trying to
Speaker 6: take a look at those where I felt there was
Speaker 6: some doubt or some doubt had been put into the
Speaker 6: equation by others, and so I figured, you know, and
Speaker 6: actually what I was doing here was I was sort
Speaker 6: of following a little bit on what my friend and
Speaker 6: fellow journalist Gerald Posner had done in Case Closed, which
Speaker 6: is to use uh, contemporary forensics and so for and
Speaker 6: and and and the current investigative techniques to take a
Speaker 6: look at some at the at the guilt or innocence
Speaker 6: of these individuals. And to be quite frank, a lot
Speaker 6: of this was stuff that I'd heard about it as
Speaker 6: a kid, like the civil rights workers, you know, that
Speaker 6: I grew up with, and the Rosenbergs, for example. I
Speaker 6: lived in Brooklyn, my my almost my entire life, and
Speaker 6: every time I would go past the funeral home where
Speaker 6: their bodies were taken, my dad would say, gee, Freddy,
Speaker 6: that's where the Rosenbergs were taken. So that stuff sort of,
Speaker 6: you know, stays with you. So it was a combination
Speaker 6: of both personal understanding of what had occurred and at
Speaker 6: the same time, in the case for instance of Zacharias M.
Speaker 6: Sally stuff. That's oh kurant, it's to me, it's relevant.
Speaker 6: And one of the problems I feel that goes on
Speaker 6: in criminal investigations, and please weigh in on this, is
Speaker 6: that too often we're very journalists included, were very we're
Speaker 6: anxious to put responsibility on somebody without really doing the
Speaker 6: proper investigation and especially using history to take a look
Speaker 6: at it. And in the case of doctor Samuel Mudd,
Speaker 6: I mean I was astonished to find out that President
Speaker 6: Carter has been asked to pardon him. I mean, I
Speaker 6: couldn't believe it. You know, you know it's and so
Speaker 6: one of the themes in the book for me is
Speaker 6: how the past effects the president and how these cases
Speaker 6: that you think are back there, Hey buddy, they're not
Speaker 6: back there. They're still they're still right here. And you know,
Speaker 6: certain cases, now obviously other cases like if we were
Speaker 6: talking about Bundie for example, you know, I certainly would
Speaker 6: leave that to my friend Kevin Sullivan, who's written about
Speaker 6: it extensively. I mean, that's a difference kind of thing.
Speaker 6: They're gacy, but these are individuals in the book where
Speaker 6: there was some doubt about the guilt or innocence. So
Speaker 6: I was looking for the best cases I could find
Speaker 6: where I could use my skills and just delves take
Speaker 6: it deep end. You know you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Right? Why don't you tell us because you do a
Speaker 4: part one and a part two twice in the book,
Speaker 4: and we'll just talk about that when we need to.
Speaker 4: But we talked about the nine infamous cases. So tell
Speaker 4: us just very very briefly what each shifter of those
Speaker 4: nine cases are, and then we'll get to I think
Speaker 4: I'd like to start with with the Lizzie Boordon case. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and so just describe, describe all the cases that you
Speaker 4: do cover, and then we'll let's talk about quite a wildcase,
Speaker 4: the Lizzi Boardon case.
Speaker 6: Sure, Doctor Samuel Mudd was convicted by by the Lincoln
Speaker 6: assassination what do we call it? It was a military jury.
Speaker 6: Was the last time the United States had a military
Speaker 6: tribunal that tried a civilian before the twenty first century,
Speaker 6: regarding the prisoners in Guantanamo. And so Samuel Mudd was
Speaker 6: convicted of not only setting John Wilkes Boot's ankle after
Speaker 6: he shot President Lincoln, but also being involved in piracy
Speaker 6: to kill him, meaning he knew what was going to happen.
Speaker 6: Then there's Lizzie Borden, who of course killed her parents.
Speaker 6: That title is called forty The title of that chapter
Speaker 6: is forty Whacks of Trouble. Well, I was up all
Speaker 6: night in that one then, and that's an infamous case,
Speaker 6: and I knew that I had to take a look
Speaker 6: at that one because one of the first cases I
Speaker 6: ever worked on murder cases involved paraside, and so I'm
Speaker 6: very familiar with parasite and I need to take a
Speaker 6: look at that. Then there was Mary who killed Mary Fagan,
Speaker 6: which is about Leo Frank who was a Jewish factory
Speaker 6: employee and Georgia who was convicted in nineteen fourteen of
Speaker 6: killing a fourteen year old factory worker. And that was
Speaker 6: a personal one because I'm Jewish, and I eventually discovered
Speaker 6: that Leo Frank is the only two ever convicted of
Speaker 6: murder and was then hung by the ku Klux Klan,
Speaker 6: and that was in a way personal. Then I went
Speaker 6: to the one who framed who was Bruno framed regarding
Speaker 6: the Bruno Richard Holtman, who was convicted of killing the
Speaker 6: Lindbergh baby. Again another very very very big case. And
Speaker 6: of course, as you go through this stuff. What you
Speaker 6: find is that it's the stuff in the periphery that
Speaker 6: gets really interesting, you know, not just the case, but
Speaker 6: in this in the UH, in the UH, in the
Speaker 6: Bruno Richard Haltman case, he's convicted of killing the Charles
Speaker 6: Lindberg's child, and I didn't know what happened to Lindbergh afterwards.
Speaker 6: Like then there's a bullet for Pretty Boy, which is
Speaker 6: about pretty Boy Floyd, famous outlaw from the nineteen thirties
Speaker 6: who was convicted of being involved with the Kansas City massacre,
Speaker 6: which involves a killing government agents. And that one what
Speaker 6: I did because I'd never written about any of the outlaws,
Speaker 6: you know, like Bonnie and Clyde and so forth. Then
Speaker 6: the atomic spies Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. That was a
Speaker 6: really interesting one because, as I mentioned earlier, they were
Speaker 6: buried from a funeral home on Flappish Avenue in Brooklyn,
Speaker 6: where I come from, and I was really interested in,
Speaker 6: you know, did the you know, obviously did they really
Speaker 6: do it, because they got death for allegedly turning over
Speaker 6: atomic secrets of the atomic bombs of the Soviet Union.
Speaker 6: And what was real interesting in that case was that
Speaker 6: was that their their KGP handler. After the Soviet Union
Speaker 6: collapsed in late nineteen nineties, he went public with information
Speaker 6: regarding it. Then we get to the murdered civil rights workers.
Speaker 6: Oh my god, this one. I remember this as a kid.
Speaker 6: Fl rights workers Shaney, Goodman and Schwerner were killed by
Speaker 6: the KKK in Philadelphia, Mississippi. And I never ever thought,
Speaker 6: as most people would, that anybody would ever be convicted
Speaker 6: of murdering them. Well, it happened in two thousand and five,
Speaker 6: so I needed to cover that. Then, of course, the
Speaker 6: Boston strangler Albert T. Salvo there had I didn't know
Speaker 6: this until I got into it, that there was. There
Speaker 6: was speculation there was more than one dude who had
Speaker 6: strangled these women in Boston. That was a movie, by
Speaker 6: the way, late sixties, probably the best performance ever given
Speaker 6: by Tony Curtis, believe it or not. He played Albert Tasalvo.
Speaker 6: Then I had to go. I had to do a
Speaker 6: zacharyas Massali, the twentieth hijacker. He was allegedly the twentieth
Speaker 6: hijacker in the nine to eleven plot, but as I discovered,
Speaker 6: there was evidence to prove that he wasn't, and I
Speaker 6: was able to. Then in the second part of the
Speaker 6: book deal with in the present day, Samuel Mudd being
Speaker 6: his relative his grandson, not great grandson, his grandson ask
Speaker 6: President Carter to pardon him, and I'm going, what the
Speaker 6: heck is this about? I missed this story, so you
Speaker 6: got to get into that. And then the last chapter
Speaker 6: is the Murdered Civil Rights The Murdered Civil Rights Workers
Speaker 6: Part two, where Edgar Ray Killen was tried for being
Speaker 6: the grand legal who actually set them up and make
Speaker 6: sure that they were murdered. So what I was most
Speaker 6: interested in was how the past affects the present and amazingly,
Speaker 6: how a crime could occur.
Speaker 4: My god.
Speaker 6: Eighteen sixty five, Samuely Mudd is convicted of killing of
Speaker 6: being involved in the plot to kill President Lincoln and
Speaker 6: boom nineteen seventy eight. Jimmy Carters asked to pardon the
Speaker 6: excuse me? How do you miss this stuff? So I said,
Speaker 6: I got to deal with this stuff, and that's how
Speaker 6: I picked the stories.
Speaker 4: Now let's just take examine Hardno.
Speaker 6: Did I go fast enough? Dan?
Speaker 4: Yes, sir, Now that was great. You've covered an amazing
Speaker 4: expanse of history and all kinds of cases. All unique.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about the Lizzie Borden because she was announced
Speaker 4: not guilty and you have applied again these modern forensic
Speaker 4: techniques and looking at the evidence again and then very
Speaker 4: much very important too to look at the time that
Speaker 4: this occurred, and like you say, patricide, who knew? So
Speaker 4: let's talk about Lizzie Borden and this murder of their parents,
Speaker 4: and how on earth you talk about one of the attorneys.
Speaker 4: I'm jumping ahead a little bit that you said he
Speaker 4: was the bailia this time, so I'll get you to
Speaker 4: explain what was it about him that was so flee baileyish.
Speaker 4: So let's first talk about it, just a little bit
Speaker 4: about the the murders themselves and what police found and
Speaker 4: what they were working with, and then the very very
Speaker 4: interesting trial that ensued.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, what happened was this is this is Massachusetts,
Speaker 6: uh four River, Massachusetts, And what happened was the bodies
Speaker 6: of her parents were discovered and they were, for lack
Speaker 6: of a better term, they were axed to death. They
Speaker 6: were murdered with an axe. And the the what the prosecute,
Speaker 6: the prosecution of course looked at as motive money. The
Speaker 6: fact that she would inherit. You know, these these were
Speaker 6: pretty well off people, and so they looked at it
Speaker 6: from that point of view. You know, the two classic
Speaker 6: motives for murder are money and sex, you know, sex, drugs,
Speaker 6: rock and roll. You know, you can put it any
Speaker 6: way you want. And I was curious about it because
Speaker 6: you know, we hear you know, this is like one
Speaker 6: of those cases you hear about over the years, and
Speaker 6: there's always a joke about it. You know, I think
Speaker 6: there's you know, there's even some rhyme, you know, Lizzie
Speaker 6: Borden twenty wax or something. I don't remember, but so
Speaker 6: you know, that's the sort of thing that attracts me
Speaker 6: to say, okay, well what really happened? And as I
Speaker 6: looked into it, the first thing that hit me was
Speaker 6: that this is overkill. Overkill meaning after the person is dead,
Speaker 6: you keep going, well, that is a classic m for paraside,
Speaker 6: which is the murder of a parent, and that occurs
Speaker 6: because of certain reasons, which if you want me to
Speaker 6: talk about at some point, I'll talk about. And she
Speaker 6: had two very well known, influential attorneys working for her.
Speaker 6: A guy named George Robinson, who was former governor of
Speaker 6: Massachusetts Andrew Jennings, who I do describe as the f
Speaker 6: Lee Bailey of his day. In other words, this is
Speaker 6: a dude who always took on cases regarding people who
Speaker 6: were behind the eight ball and had a tremendous record
Speaker 6: of getting them off. And by the way, this is
Speaker 6: the late eighteen nineties. And again that's the other part
Speaker 6: that I find so interesting, because so much of this book,
Speaker 6: as as well as our history, goes from the late
Speaker 6: eighteen nineties into the nineteen hundreds into the twentieth century.
Speaker 6: And so I really wanted to look at Lizzie Borden
Speaker 6: and find out if she had done it and why.
Speaker 6: The motive, of course, is always all important, and what
Speaker 6: the evidence was to show that she had done it
Speaker 6: versus the evidence to show that she didn't.
Speaker 4: At the crime scene itself, her excuse was that she
Speaker 4: was doing some work, something to do with candles in
Speaker 4: the barn she was and came back into the home
Speaker 4: and then there was a of course, her mother was
Speaker 4: butchered or slaughtered and her father was slaughtered. But they
Speaker 4: were on different levels.
Speaker 6: Or different floors, yes, different floors.
Speaker 4: So you talk about you talk about modern forensics, but
Speaker 4: for eighteen ninety two. I was surprised that they did
Speaker 4: do some due diligence there in terms of later there
Speaker 4: was a determination of the importance of finding out who
Speaker 4: got killed first. Tell us, yes, that relevance.
Speaker 6: Well, they wanted to find out, you know, who the
Speaker 6: father was downstairs. It's where it sort of gets sort
Speaker 6: of interesting. They they the father was downstairs on like
Speaker 6: a couch, and and when he was discovered, nobody ever
Speaker 6: thought of going upstairs to see what was upstairs, and
Speaker 6: when they when, when eventually they did, they discovered that
Speaker 6: missus Borden had been killed. And so the question then
Speaker 6: becomes who was killed first and why? And I go back.
Speaker 6: I have to keep going back to the motive because
Speaker 6: what the police missed was the overkilled. They were much
Speaker 6: too interested in her h what do you call it?
Speaker 6: Inheriting money, you know. And Lizzie told there was a
Speaker 6: doctor that showed up named Bowen o'bowen and and he
Speaker 6: told this dude that and that Bowen discovered the body
Speaker 6: of of mister Bordon downstairs. And Lizzie then said, well,
Speaker 6: I do not know where mother is. I had been
Speaker 6: out to the barn and the servant was on the
Speaker 6: third floor, okay. And then it takes a little, you know,
Speaker 6: a couple of minutes later before they find missus Borden.
Speaker 6: And then it's a question of okay, you know who
Speaker 6: died first and how did it happen? But Lizzie kept maintaining, Uh,
Speaker 6: I'm saying Lizzie like she's my buddy, you know. But
Speaker 6: Lizzie kept maintaining that he was someplace else when all
Speaker 6: of this occurred. And Bowen later wrote about Missus Borton
Speaker 6: that her skull had sustained almost exactly the same damage
Speaker 6: as her husband by what appeared to be the same weapon,
Speaker 6: and he wrote, I think she must have been engaged
Speaker 6: in making the bed when the murderer appeared with an
Speaker 6: axe or hatchet and made a slash in her. After that,
Speaker 6: she turned and the fiend, I love that word, chopped
Speaker 6: her head as if it had been a cake of ice.
Speaker 6: One blow killed the woman, but the murderer kept on
Speaker 6: hacking at her until he was well satisfied that she
Speaker 6: was dead. That is the tip off. That's the tip off.
Speaker 6: If it's a robbery, you don't do that. You just
Speaker 6: kill the person, you take the money, and you leave.
Speaker 6: Why the overkill and that's what stayed in my mind
Speaker 6: as I can't looking at this case.
Speaker 4: Now. You talked about this doctor and what he had
Speaker 4: done as well, doctor Bowen, as he had determined through
Speaker 4: the contents of the stomach that who had died first,
Speaker 4: and that there was quite a bit of time between
Speaker 4: one murder and another, which was one of the crucial
Speaker 4: things at trial. And again lucky she had this f
Speaker 4: le Bailey type lawyer, because there was also testimony from
Speaker 4: an Eli Bentz, a pharmacist said that a woman had
Speaker 4: come in and tried to buy a bottle of hydro
Speaker 4: cynac acid and she says, you want to kill some moss.
Speaker 4: Because so they had this kind of evidence that and
Speaker 4: other evidence that there was something maybe that she had
Speaker 4: tried to actually poison her parents, sort of a die
Speaker 4: run for murder. Yes, So tell us how it proceeds
Speaker 4: at trial. How does Lizzie Gordon get a jury convinced
Speaker 4: that she's not guilty with all this damaging evidence. I know,
Speaker 4: they don't know anything about patricide. They think that this
Speaker 4: is the again that you describe the fiend. So tell
Speaker 4: us more about trial and how she is defended.
Speaker 6: Well, the point here is that. First off, this kind
Speaker 6: of a crime was extremely was extremely rare. It's still
Speaker 6: extremely rare. A child killing her or his parents is
Speaker 6: an extremely rare situation. The second point is that there
Speaker 6: is no direct evidence that implicates Lizzie Bordon. And yet
Speaker 6: you have circumstantial stuff, but there really isn't very much there.
Speaker 6: I mean, she's saying she was someplace else. Now, there
Speaker 6: was a witness that later said that she wrenched out
Speaker 6: some garment that one of the seedents had been wearing,
Speaker 6: or I think it was hers, I don't remember, but
Speaker 6: here it is. She was. Yeah, Lizzie was wearing a faded,
Speaker 6: light blue calico dress and she was washing it and
Speaker 6: somebody saw her doing it and she said, I'm going
Speaker 6: to burn this dress. It's all covered with paint. Well,
Speaker 6: of course it was blood. So you know, you've got
Speaker 6: you've got a situation where you certainly have some circumstantial evidence,
Speaker 6: but you don't have any direct evidence. And most importantly,
Speaker 6: the motive, the motive, the mode of the motive. I'll
Speaker 6: go back to that any number of times. Why would
Speaker 6: a woman want to kill her father and her mother? Now, again,
Speaker 6: the most obvious one would be, oh, I'm going to
Speaker 6: inherit a lot of money. Well, if that's the case,
Speaker 6: there'd be a lot more murders in all of our countries.
Speaker 6: But that is not the reason that this occurred, and
Speaker 6: that is not the reason why this crime occurred. So,
Speaker 6: you know, I was really into trying to determine what
Speaker 6: her motive was. And unfortunately the police did not look
Speaker 6: into any possibility that she'd been abused by one of
Speaker 6: both parents, which again would have been a very rare
Speaker 6: occurrence in those days and it's still pretty rare today. Dan,
Speaker 6: I mean, sure, you know what happens that cop. You know,
Speaker 6: cops don't generally we look at this stuff. Again there
Speaker 6: you know, you know, they're like anybody else. Whatever is
Speaker 6: the easiest way to go, they're going to go.
Speaker 4: Well, in this trial was very interesting to me is
Speaker 4: that this Alice Russell testified that about the you mentioned
Speaker 4: the burning of the dress, wanting to burn the dress
Speaker 4: that had paint on it, So it was none of
Speaker 4: that evidence that calico dress was not didn't come forward.
Speaker 4: They the jury came back with not guilty. She ended up,
Speaker 4: as you read the book, bought a new house with
Speaker 4: her sister Emma, and she became a big patron of
Speaker 4: the arts. As you say, in your investigation you found
Speaker 4: evidence of molestation, as it makes a lot of sense
Speaker 4: now of course one hundred and something years later, but yeah,
Speaker 4: really that's what you found.
Speaker 6: Yes, And you know this is this crime is con
Speaker 6: assistant with other parasites. And when you look at parriside
Speaker 6: as a crime, there are always certain uh common unless
Speaker 6: it's a self defense situation, which is rare. What is
Speaker 6: always common in these cases this abuse, and and and
Speaker 6: and and here we have a situation where you know,
Speaker 6: the the the the the mother, the the the mother
Speaker 6: was not the nicest person in the world, and the
Speaker 6: but the father because is almost a fipher. I mean, sure,
Speaker 6: I'm speculating regarding the abuse, but if you use modern
Speaker 6: day profiling, you have to say that that the the
Speaker 6: over care is indicative of parriside. Because in every parasite
Speaker 6: case you can find in contemporary true crime literature, you're
Speaker 6: going to find that the individual or individuals were abused.
Speaker 6: And I don't think there's any doubt that that occurred here.
Speaker 6: Part of the problem is the time period we're talking about.
Speaker 6: You know, it's sort of like it's the same thing
Speaker 6: like last time I was on your show. I talked
Speaker 6: about how doctor Willet Bliss murdered James Garfield. Well, who
Speaker 6: would ever think a doctor would murder a patient? Okay,
Speaker 6: who would ever think that a child would murder their parent.
Speaker 6: There's got to be a motive for it. And I
Speaker 6: am convinced that she committed this crime because her daddy
Speaker 6: molested either physically or emotionally.
Speaker 4: Now let's move on to another case that a lot
Speaker 4: of people like you had mentioned. Tony Curtis did this.
Speaker 4: I believe Academy Award winning performance. If not, this is
Speaker 4: one of the highlights of this Hey.
Speaker 6: Hey, hey, now you're getting into my wheelhouse. Dam Night
Speaker 6: didn't win the Oscar. I think he got nominated. Okay,
Speaker 6: wonderful performance. And if his daughter is listening in, you know,
Speaker 6: Jamie Lee, he did. It's the nineteenth I want to
Speaker 6: say about sixty eight, sixty nine something like that, you know.
Speaker 6: And it's a great case. You know, it's one of
Speaker 6: the earliest, UH serial killing cases that received an enormous
Speaker 6: amount of publicity. And of course h F. Lee Bailey
Speaker 6: was the dude who defended him and in fact saved
Speaker 6: his life.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's amazing, amazing. I did.
Speaker 6: It's amazing. It really yeah, I mean it's really something,
Speaker 6: you know, I mean, you know, it's funny, isn't it funny?
Speaker 6: How Bailey shows funny? He shows up in a lot
Speaker 6: of cases, you know, obviously the O. J. Simpson case.
Speaker 6: You know, hell of a good Hey, listen, God forbid,
Speaker 6: wherever in a problem and we need an attorney. I
Speaker 6: don't care how old he is. I want them, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess. So, yeah, let's talk more about this.
Speaker 4: Nineteen sixty two to nineteen sixty four you talked about
Speaker 4: the advent of serial killers and profiling, and again America
Speaker 4: a little more innocent time, didn't know anything about this
Speaker 4: sort of thing. And we're in the Boston area. One
Speaker 4: woman and Sleezer's yeah, is murdered. But then shortly after that,
Speaker 4: thirteen women in the Boston area in eighteen months. And
Speaker 4: the thing that you said that strangled, yes, And and
Speaker 4: the thing that was the most shocking for the city,
Speaker 4: the police and everyone was that these were not people
Speaker 4: that seemed to maybe live a dangerous life and have
Speaker 4: something like this coming to them. Possibly these were middle aged,
Speaker 4: maybe even elderly. These were not prostitutes. This, you know,
Speaker 4: set the city, frightened the city. So this was uh so,
Speaker 4: tell us you talk about how the murder stopped, and
Speaker 4: then eleven months after the murder ceased Albert de Salvo
Speaker 4: on a completely different charge. Right, tell us a little
Speaker 4: bit about Albert DeSalvo, a little bit about his background
Speaker 4: before we talk about his what he tells police incredibly.
Speaker 6: Well. This Salvo was born in Chelsea, Massachusetts, on September third,
Speaker 6: nineteen thirty one. Growing up, he was rested on more
Speaker 6: than one occasion on assault battery chargers. Growing up, again,
Speaker 6: he was his behavior was very inconsistent. At times, he
Speaker 6: was cool, at times he behaved badly. His mother divorced
Speaker 6: his dad. But of course that's you know, that's just
Speaker 6: you know, that's part of it. But obviously if that was,
Speaker 6: you know, the most important aspect, you'd have a lot
Speaker 6: more of this stuff going on. But that's not the case.
Speaker 6: When he was seventeen, he was drafted into the army
Speaker 6: enjoy you know, he loved it. Became a specialist E five.
Speaker 6: But he gets busted back to private fulfilling to obey
Speaker 6: the superiors orders. And he meets a woman in West
Speaker 6: Germany and they fell in love and they married. Guess
Speaker 6: what fifty five he leaves the military. He's arrested to
Speaker 6: finding a young girl. The charges dropped. Then his first child, Judy,
Speaker 6: is born, and she has congenital pelvic disease. And after
Speaker 6: that his wife avoids having sex without bit at all,
Speaker 6: plus because she doesn't want to bring another child into
Speaker 6: the world with that problem. But what's happening is the
Speaker 6: salvo and I'll relate to this. Maybe I don't know,
Speaker 6: maybe there's some people that do. But he has this
Speaker 6: insatiable sexual urge. He needed sex at least five or
Speaker 6: six times a day. He had to find at someplace.
Speaker 6: And so the next thing, you know, he becomes a burglar.
Speaker 6: And of course burglary is a crime of uh it's
Speaker 6: it's not just a physical crime of you know, of
Speaker 6: of you know, stealing st but it's assaulting people's you know,
Speaker 6: where they live, no pun intended. Yeah here it is burglary.
Speaker 6: You know, it's a sexual crime because it involves an
Speaker 6: invasion of a person's privacy. So he gets all these
Speaker 6: arrests for burglary and so forth and so on. So
Speaker 6: he has this long criminal record, yet he's extremely well
Speaker 6: liked by the people who know him, his wife and
Speaker 6: his new wife and his son love him. Is it
Speaker 6: coworker's life like him? But he's a thief and he's
Speaker 6: also a braggart. He likes to exaggerate his achievements. He
Speaker 6: gets arrested for breaking into a house. I mean, this
Speaker 6: stuff goes on and on and on and on. So
Speaker 6: there's something going on in this guy's psyche that makes
Speaker 6: him engage in burglary. And again, obviously you know this
Speaker 6: whole business about having to have sex a zillion times
Speaker 6: a day. And then of course the Boston stranglings begin
Speaker 6: in the first Yeah, it's actually the second quarter of
Speaker 6: nineteen sixty two. That's that's the next thing that happens.
Speaker 6: And you know, the police, of course don't know who
Speaker 6: this is.
Speaker 4: As you mentioned, he is caught for some burglaries. He's
Speaker 4: identified as a as a certain type of criminal. Yet again,
Speaker 4: what was interesting is a sex crime home invasion. I
Speaker 4: never really read it put that way, which is great
Speaker 4: that it's done that way, makes a lot of.
Speaker 6: You know, that's you know what, Yeah, you would never
Speaker 6: think of it, would you get? I mean, it's like
Speaker 6: you just don't think of it as being you know,
Speaker 6: a sexually oriented crime. But that's the way criminal. I'll
Speaker 6: just look at it, you know.
Speaker 4: Now Solvo avoids the void's prison. But also he when
Speaker 4: he does get this prison term, he gets an eighteen
Speaker 4: month sentence because the judge sees that he's a good worker,
Speaker 4: he has a couple of kids, he has this relationship,
Speaker 4: has pity on him. Two months, you write, two months
Speaker 4: after the eighteen months, that's when these strength things, these
Speaker 4: murders occur. Right now, tell us what happens, because it's
Speaker 4: it's utterly fascinating. Again, this is very, very unusual for
Speaker 4: him to be arrested on something else, really no pressure.
Speaker 4: Tell us about this confession.
Speaker 6: Well, this goes back. You know a lot of these
Speaker 6: serial killers, they are braggerts. They want attention. And that's
Speaker 6: the way he seemed when he was arrested on this charge.
Speaker 6: And he seemed more like a braggart than a murderer.
Speaker 6: And he tells his attorney, what would you do if
Speaker 6: someone gave you the biggest story of the century, talk
Speaker 6: about talk about before his time? Uh? And he and
Speaker 6: the attorney says, you mean the Boston strangler. And decephal
Speaker 6: says yes, yes, And the attorney says, you mixed up
Speaker 6: in this stuff? Did you do some of them? All
Speaker 6: of them? Albert answered, he's trying to make money. He's
Speaker 6: trying to make money. He figures if he confesses to
Speaker 6: this stuff, not only does he does he get credit
Speaker 6: for it, He's gonna make a lot of money. And
Speaker 6: then what happens is the judge sends the salvo for
Speaker 6: psychiatric evaluation. The cops are still not convinced these but
Speaker 6: these he's the he's the dude, and and that's you know.
Speaker 6: And then what happens is he he makes the acquaintance
Speaker 6: of a guy who uh his attorney is Lee Bailey,
Speaker 6: and Lee and Lee Bailey visits Albert de Salvo and Jill,
Speaker 6: and Albert de Salvo says, I know I'm going to
Speaker 6: have to spend the rest of my life locked up somewhere, uh,
Speaker 6: but I want to tell my story to somebody who
Speaker 6: could write it. Maybe I could make some money for
Speaker 6: my family. This is way before it's time, and it's
Speaker 6: before the Son of Sam laws, which in the United
Speaker 6: States prevented criminals from making money up their crimes. I
Speaker 6: think most of them have since been uh taken off
Speaker 6: the books, you know, But so in any case, when
Speaker 6: he makes Bailey's acquaintance, Bailey's primary concern is keeping him
Speaker 6: out of the chair, you know, which was the way
Speaker 6: that people were executed in those days. And he Bailey
Speaker 6: questions him, and he becomes convinced because of the detailed
Speaker 6: Dissalvo gives him that he's the Boston strangler. And that's
Speaker 6: when Bailey gives the Boston police access to DiSalvo to
Speaker 6: ask him questions about the case. And basically he's making
Speaker 6: a deal. Okay, I'll give you this guy. You can
Speaker 6: solve the cases, but you can't put him in the chair.
Speaker 6: It's got to be it's got to be life.
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Speaker 4: And do they renege on this deal? Do they?
Speaker 6: You mean you mean the government? Yeah, no, no they
Speaker 6: the state decides to try to solve on four accounts
Speaker 6: of breaking and entering. In other words, it's bargained down.
Speaker 6: Bailey tries to use insanity to spare out with prison,
Speaker 6: but the jury didn't see things. In other words, he's
Speaker 6: not tried for the murders. He's tried for breaking and entering.
Speaker 6: And it's almost like, you know, you gotta sort of
Speaker 6: wonder what's going on behind the scenes, because for breaking
Speaker 6: and entering, the judge winds up giving them life period.
Speaker 6: You know. And Bailey later writes, and this is a
Speaker 6: direct quote, my goal was to see the strangler wind
Speaker 6: up in a hospital where doctor doctors could try to
Speaker 6: find out what made him kill. Society is deprived of
Speaker 6: a study that might help deter other mass killers who
Speaker 6: lived among us waiting for the trigger to go off
Speaker 6: inside them. Pretty interesting, you know, I mean that, you know,
Speaker 6: and you know, you have to say that is a brilliant,
Speaker 6: brilliant piece of defense work on the part of mister Bailey,
Speaker 6: because what he did was he got a bad guy
Speaker 6: off the street who was killing people and got him
Speaker 6: sentenced to life. Was hoping that he would get some
Speaker 6: care behind bars. But that doesn't quite happen because something
Speaker 6: else happens.
Speaker 4: Hey that when he was when he was asked, One
Speaker 4: of the most fascinating things was when Dissolva was asked
Speaker 4: why he did all of this, he or he offered
Speaker 4: this reason why he did what he did. Can you
Speaker 4: tell us what that is?
Speaker 6: Jesus, I'm trying to remember.
Speaker 4: Well, I could say I could tell you because what
Speaker 4: I really profound, was was really profound, was that he
Speaker 4: said that he was just an ordinary guy, not even
Speaker 4: a great looking guy, not really a smart guy, but
Speaker 4: he outsmarted a lot of really good, rich, smart people.
Speaker 6: He said, Yeah, what it was was the salvo. Basically
Speaker 6: it goes it goes back to this. Obviously, the guy's
Speaker 6: got problems with self esteem, so it goes back to
Speaker 6: that that he's got problems with self esteem, and so
Speaker 6: what he's doing is assuaging those sexual urges. But at
Speaker 6: the same time, he's getting a huge kick out of
Speaker 6: all the publicity surrounding this and again way ahead of
Speaker 6: his time. And then once he's he's he's so he's
Speaker 6: got you know, he's got that part of it, those motives,
Speaker 6: you know, the sexual stuff, plus he wants to make
Speaker 6: money off of it for his family. He's very interesting
Speaker 6: that way. You know, as we're talking, I mean, you
Speaker 6: don't find too many serial killers that you know, really
Speaker 6: are trying to look out for their families. And as
Speaker 6: we're talking about it, I would say, you know, the
Speaker 6: evidence which would say that this guy had a conscience,
Speaker 6: which is which is possible. You know, it doesn't mean
Speaker 6: not every single serial killer you know, or killer is
Speaker 6: a sociopath, but this guy appears to have had a
Speaker 6: conscience because he cared about his family, he cared about
Speaker 6: what happened to them. But at the same time, he
Speaker 6: was trying to make up for these bad things that
Speaker 6: apparently happened to him in his life, his lack of
Speaker 6: self esteem and so forth and so on. And also
Speaker 6: he's not a good looking guy, as he says. But
Speaker 6: then again, you know, you go back, Look, most of
Speaker 6: us aren't movie stars. You know. I was going to say,
Speaker 6: we don't look like Burt Lancaster. But that's going back,
Speaker 6: isn't it. I'm sorry, I'm not going to go to
Speaker 6: Tom Cruise. I can't stand him, sorry, folks. But anyway,
Speaker 6: you know, he's you know, with a guy like this,
Speaker 6: there's also the issue of power, the fact that he
Speaker 6: controls things, he controls women. So that's that is also
Speaker 6: very very essential to understanding this individual's personality. By the way,
Speaker 6: you know, this was another this was this case is
Speaker 6: late sixties. I remember it very well. I mean I
Speaker 6: was a teenager. But man, there's a lot of publicity
Speaker 6: about it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: Sure you add one more very interesting twist at the
Speaker 4: end is that one of the victims, Mary Soul, the
Speaker 4: family dug her up in two thousand as you as
Speaker 4: you write to compare and Dissoliva was dug up in
Speaker 4: two thousand and one, So tell us what the result
Speaker 4: of that DNA test was.
Speaker 6: Interestingly, well, what doctor James Stars, professor of forensic science
Speaker 6: at George Washington University. He's one of the premier forensic
Speaker 6: criminologists out there. And so what happens is they disinentered
Speaker 6: the body of Mary Sullivan, one of his victims, and
Speaker 6: of course they just they also get a Disalvo's body
Speaker 6: and they compare the DNA you know, which of course
Speaker 6: you couldn't do in the nineteen sixties because it didn't exist.
Speaker 6: And so the DNA tests were performed on the corpses
Speaker 6: for comparison purposes. And if Pasalvo had raped and stranglers,
Speaker 6: he claimed that the a forensic footprint, well guess what,
Speaker 6: it didn't match. In other words, Mary Sullivan was raped
Speaker 6: by somebody else. So that is what leads to the
Speaker 6: supposition that there were copycats. So there was more than
Speaker 6: one Boston strangler. That's pretty damn interesting because it's very
Speaker 6: rare that you have a situation where you get a
Speaker 6: bad guy and you can you actually prove through through
Speaker 6: forensics after the crime is committed that the guy didn't
Speaker 6: do it. You know, that just doesn't happen very often.
Speaker 6: I mean, I can't even think of another instance where
Speaker 6: it does you know, was he the boss that you know,
Speaker 6: and I talk about this obviously, was he the boss
Speaker 6: and strangler? And I, you know, I get my my
Speaker 6: my opinion as as far as you know what he did.
Speaker 6: But one thing is clear. He didn't kill Mary Sullivan.
Speaker 6: So that's a victim that was duck for him, that
Speaker 6: he didn't do because doctor Starprugi didn't do it, which
Speaker 6: means that person could still be out there. And remember,
Speaker 6: you know, as I point out here and I'll actually
Speaker 6: ask you about this in terms of how it works
Speaker 6: in the Commonwealth, murder is the one crime in the
Speaker 6: United States that there's no statute orimentations, and I'm going
Speaker 6: to assume it's the same in the Commonwealth of my
Speaker 6: correct Oh yeah, yeah, well there you go, because we
Speaker 6: get out of law from you guys. You know, in
Speaker 6: case anybody doesn't know Dan lives in France, just making
Speaker 6: it up. But but seriously, seriously, it's you know, you
Speaker 6: don't see this level of scientific inquiry into this sort
Speaker 6: of thing because it's too easy for cops to clear
Speaker 6: a case and say this guy did this, this guy
Speaker 6: did that, so forth and so on. And when you
Speaker 6: get a guy like James Starr Stars rather involved. I
Speaker 6: mean this guy, I think this guy also worked on
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, he if I remember correctly, Stars also worked
Speaker 6: on trying to determine if the Sundance Kid was buried
Speaker 6: in Bolivia aka Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. So
Speaker 6: you know, you get you know, you're really getting into
Speaker 6: not only heavy duty DNA testing, but real pros. And
Speaker 6: you don't see this happening. And how often have we
Speaker 6: seen something like that happen in a serial killing case.
Speaker 6: I mean, I wrote about BTK, Nothing like that happened there.
Speaker 6: You know, it's just too easy to pind you know,
Speaker 6: you got five murders pinning on the same guy, you know,
Speaker 6: because you know, the other thing I remember is that
Speaker 6: anytime you get a guy who likes Star is involved,
Speaker 6: you know, or any Fransic specialists of courts a lot
Speaker 6: of money, you know, and also there's got to be
Speaker 6: a reason to do it. So you know, in a
Speaker 6: case like this, it's not it wouldn't be so unusual
Speaker 6: simply because you know, you're talking about one of the
Speaker 6: most famous serial killers in American history. But that's not
Speaker 6: going to happen every single time down the line. Wow,
Speaker 6: you talk. It's funny we're talking about this and I'm going, gee,
Speaker 6: where are these people today? You know, It's like, wouldn't
Speaker 6: you know I'm saying to myself, geez, you know, why
Speaker 6: don't we get these people involved in more cases? I'm sorry?
Speaker 4: Go ahead, Now you do a two parts, as I
Speaker 4: mentioned twice, and one of them is the incredible story
Speaker 4: of Victor ray Killing. And this is Mississippi. So this
Speaker 4: is an amazing story, as you write, because of the
Speaker 4: second part, what happens finally in a place that people
Speaker 4: never thought they would ever see anything like that. And
Speaker 4: we alluded to that Victor ray Killing being arrested in
Speaker 4: the twenty first century. So let's go back to August fourth,
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty four and talk about what those What were
Speaker 4: the circumstances that these civil rights people basically know the story,
Speaker 4: but what were the circumstances that these workers were down there,
Speaker 4: these three people, these three young men were down there,
Speaker 4: and what was the role of Victor ray killing At
Speaker 4: that time.
Speaker 6: Well, killing was called the Grand Klegal, which means he
Speaker 6: was the organizer of the klan that in Philadelphia, Mississippi,
Speaker 6: And purely by coincidence, I was thinking about this. I
Speaker 6: drove through Philadelphi, Mississippi, last week, and you know, I
Speaker 6: got out of their assessed as I could, to be
Speaker 6: honest with you. You know, the the it not much
Speaker 6: has changed in terms of the environment. Now. As I said,
Speaker 6: killing was a was an ordained minister, a businessman, a
Speaker 6: clan organizer. And what happened was Schwerner, Schwerner, Cheney, and
Speaker 6: Goodman were the three civil rights workers. And what happened
Speaker 6: was Schwerner had been down in Philadelphia, in the Philadelphia area,
Speaker 6: visiting a church. And this is again in sixty sixty four,
Speaker 6: and what happened was the church was burned down by
Speaker 6: the KKK, and he had visited that church. And he's
Speaker 6: up in the north at some civil rights conference and
Speaker 6: he's as well, I got to go down there and
Speaker 6: help those people. Now, So what he does is he
Speaker 6: goes with his buddy Cheney, who's a black dude, and
Speaker 6: then he elicts a kid named Goodman from Queens, New York.
Speaker 6: And Queens is one of the boroughs of New York City,
Speaker 6: and they go down there. They work for the Congress
Speaker 6: of Racial Equality Corps, and they go down in a
Speaker 6: in a what he call it station wagon, and Schwerner
Speaker 6: is already a target of the KKK, call him jew
Speaker 6: boy or go Tee because he had to go tee.
Speaker 6: So he goes down there to help these people. You know,
Speaker 6: basically he's going into Philadelphia, Mississippi, to or for support. Now,
Speaker 6: the problem here is that you're dealing with the KKK,
Speaker 6: You're dealing with violent individuals. So he's going in there.
Speaker 6: These guys aren't armed. You know, this is nineteen sixty four.
Speaker 6: You know, it's the other way around. These guys think that,
Speaker 6: you know, because they're supporting the constitution equal rights for
Speaker 6: African Americans, that nothing's going to happen. Well, he goes
Speaker 6: down there and he's with the other two dudes, and
Speaker 6: he's he's like, he's somebody who basically the KKK has
Speaker 6: putting hit out on. They want to get him. So
Speaker 6: what happens is the local deputy sheriff named Price, purely
Speaker 6: by coincidence, sees this station lag and being driven by Schwerner,
Speaker 6: Goodman and Cheney get this. He arrests the dudes and
Speaker 6: puts him in jail, claiming they were the ones who
Speaker 6: burned down the church. It's a you know, you know,
Speaker 6: you gotta laugh, man, because if you don't, you'll go nuts.
Speaker 6: And at that point point, at that point killing, the
Speaker 6: Grand Legal starts organizing to get these guys killed.
Speaker 4: Now, they may have should have known that they were
Speaker 4: in danger, but they didn't. And you talk about a.
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, excuse me, sir, I'm sorry, I interrupt. Forgive
Speaker 6: me that.
Speaker 4: Go ahead.
Speaker 6: I'm from Brooklyn. I'm from Brooklyn. I interrupt too much. No, no, no,
Speaker 6: go ahead.
Speaker 4: You were talking about that the Sam Bawers, the Imperial Wizard,
Speaker 4: had called for Sherman's murder, Schwerner's murder. Yes, so how
Speaker 4: are they going to go about this?
Speaker 6: Uh?
Speaker 4: And and who set this plan in motion? And how
Speaker 4: how did it come to fruition?
Speaker 6: Well, what happens is this gout. This dude, Bowers is
Speaker 6: the head dude. Let's just forget it about using the
Speaker 6: KKK names for these individuals. He's a head dude in Mississippi.
Speaker 6: So the idea is, let's figure out a way. They
Speaker 6: got him, and they got him, Okay, They've been wanting
Speaker 6: to get Schwerner for a while, so now he's in jail,
Speaker 6: and what they decide to do. What happens is is
Speaker 6: that killing then recruits the younger guys to kill the
Speaker 6: three civil rights workers. And so they said, and it's
Speaker 6: a pretty smart plot. Is they wind up releasing them
Speaker 6: and telling them, Okay, you can go back to uh,
Speaker 6: you know, wherever you came from. But they follow him
Speaker 6: that of town, and then at some point they the
Speaker 6: civil rights the dude they have to decide which road
Speaker 6: to take. You know, there's more than one road in
Speaker 6: those days. The interstate highway system was certainly not completed
Speaker 6: now it is, of course, And so what happens is
Speaker 6: the idea is it's a plot. This dude prices the
Speaker 6: sheriff is supposed to shadow him, and eventually, not only
Speaker 6: does he shadow him, but he pulls him over a
Speaker 6: second time. So this is the first time is when
Speaker 6: he arrests him. The second time is when he pulls
Speaker 6: them over, and then he transports them to the place
Speaker 6: where they're going to die. And it's all been set
Speaker 6: up in advance, according to the jury, but by killing,
Speaker 6: and the rest, as they say, is history. If I
Speaker 6: can talk more about that, if you want, you know
Speaker 6: about what happens.
Speaker 4: Sure, because killing basically has an alibi. They drop him
Speaker 4: off as uncle's funeral, and he also, like you say,
Speaker 4: they control Mississippi, so they also control the police, or
Speaker 4: certain tenets of the police at least, and citizens are
Speaker 4: sympathetic in this state at that time, has a lot
Speaker 4: of friends. You start the chapter with the discovery of
Speaker 4: the body, so it isn't long after that they discover
Speaker 4: these bodies, So tell us about this investigation and sure
Speaker 4: what the police do with this information?
Speaker 6: Well, what happens is and I got to talk about
Speaker 6: it a little personally, Dan if I can. When I
Speaker 6: was a kid, I remember seeing all of this on TV,
Speaker 6: you know, and I talk about it in the in
Speaker 6: the in the book where the the you know, various
Speaker 6: anchors on the three networks in those days there are
Speaker 6: only three networks come on and they talk about the
Speaker 6: discovery of the bodies and what happens is after the
Speaker 6: civil rights workers disappear, the United States Attorney comes in
Speaker 6: and they launch an investigation, and it becomes an investigation
Speaker 6: to find the bodies, and using informants, eventually find that
Speaker 6: the bodies have been buried in this earth and dam
Speaker 6: under tons of of why. I start the chapter with
Speaker 6: the blue flies swarming over the bodies, and it's one
Speaker 6: after the other. So when they finally disinter them, you
Speaker 6: see the three of them, and what's happening here is
Speaker 6: now the next question is how do they die? And
Speaker 6: the local coroner, he won't even say that they were shot,
Speaker 6: you know, he was just a piece of crap, quite frankly.
Speaker 6: But a private coroner is brought in and they're able
Speaker 6: to determine that they were. The three of them were executed,
Speaker 6: a couple of them were beaten up, and so forth,
Speaker 6: and then it becomes a question of okay, this occurred.
Speaker 6: The FBI establishes its first office in Mississippi. I didn't
Speaker 6: know that, by the way. I always thought the FBI
Speaker 6: was in all fifty state But it turns out they
Speaker 6: didn't have an office in Mississippi. But Herbert Jaegerhobert, excuse me,
Speaker 6: establishes an office down there. And this, of course, all
Speaker 6: of this stuff is chronicled in the movie Mississippi Burning,
Speaker 6: pretty good movie with Jim Hackman and William the Foe.
Speaker 6: And so what happens is they were able to determine
Speaker 6: the government said that these individuals were executed gunshots. But
Speaker 6: you got a problem, and it's the same problem that
Speaker 6: exists today, which is murder is not a federal crime
Speaker 6: unless it's not a federal reservation. So the only thing
Speaker 6: you can charge them with is executing them and therefore
Speaker 6: them denying them their civil rights. And that's exactly what
Speaker 6: happens because the Feds, no, they're not going to get
Speaker 6: any sort of conviction. Hell, they're not going to get
Speaker 6: they're not going to get a prosecution in Mississippi at
Speaker 6: that time. So they decide that are going to try
Speaker 6: them for denying these dudes their civil rights. And they
Speaker 6: put Killing and a Bower and a whole bunch of
Speaker 6: other guys on trial. But the deal is you're only
Speaker 6: talking a couple of years in jail even, And that's
Speaker 6: exactly what happens. You know, a couple of them are
Speaker 6: convicted and a couple of them get off. You know, basically,
Speaker 6: it's a slap on the wrist for triple murder.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Killing isn't convicted of anything whatsoever?
Speaker 6: Is he No, because he claimed that he had a
Speaker 6: pretty good alibi. He claimed that he'd gone to some funerals.
Speaker 6: And you got to remember that this dude was a
Speaker 6: that I think he's a Baptist minister, So you know,
Speaker 6: he's got that. You know. There there's your other point. Okay,
Speaker 6: how could a man of God uh be involved in
Speaker 6: a murder? You know, it's almost the same situation as
Speaker 6: how could a man of God molest children? You know,
Speaker 6: the situation with it, you know with the Spotlight, the
Speaker 6: movie Spotlight, you know in Boston in the early two thousands,
Speaker 6: you know how the arch stye he's covered up from stations. Well,
Speaker 6: it's the same situation you know had had had as
Speaker 6: a guy who is who's you know, who answers to
Speaker 6: God do such a thing. Well, you know, maybe maybe
Speaker 6: he's not really serving God. So he gets off and
Speaker 6: so you wind up in a spit with By the
Speaker 6: by the late by the middle sixth would be probably
Speaker 6: about sixty seven sixty eight. You want to get a
Speaker 6: couple of guys that are convicted and they you know,
Speaker 6: for violating civil rights. They go to jail for three
Speaker 6: years and then it's all forgot. And I got to
Speaker 6: tell you something, out of all the criminal cases that
Speaker 6: I can recall ever being exposed to, you know, reading
Speaker 6: about whatever, I never thought they'd ever solve this one. Never.
Speaker 6: I said, there's no way, man, they're going to solve
Speaker 6: this case while I was wrong, Thank god. You know.
Speaker 4: What's incredible that I did knows about this witness at
Speaker 4: that time named James Jordan, who was an eye witness
Speaker 4: to the killings. And I can imagine fearing the A
Speaker 4: Clan assassination. This guy was heavily guarded by g men
Speaker 4: at that time. But even though this guy the stress
Speaker 4: almost killed, this guy was hype hospitalized for hyperventilating, he collapsed,
Speaker 4: he was taken out of the courtroom on a stretcher,
Speaker 4: and then the third time he actually made it to
Speaker 4: the witness stand. And still I.
Speaker 6: Gotta say one thing though, I got to kick out
Speaker 6: of you saying man, because you're a Canadian cool man,
Speaker 6: very cool, you know. But yeah, I mean this dude,
Speaker 6: he and it makes doesn't it make sense? I mean,
Speaker 6: this guy Jordan is going to testify against uh, you know,
Speaker 6: a criminal conspiracy, you know, a criminal you know today.
Speaker 6: You know, it's interesting that we're talking about this then,
Speaker 6: because I don't think a lot of people today understand
Speaker 6: what the power was of the Ku Klux plan back
Speaker 6: in the day. Sure you hear about, you know, stuff
Speaker 6: happening today, and you know they might protest here or there,
Speaker 6: that's not what they did back then. They killed people,
Speaker 6: they lynched people. I mean, you know, it's a pretty
Speaker 6: awful situation. So Jordan was really scared that they were
Speaker 6: going to get them for good reason, because they had
Speaker 6: the ability to do it. Because you're not only talking
Speaker 6: about individuals I'm going to use the term mobbed up,
Speaker 6: but you're cares were in government. You'd have a mayor,
Speaker 6: a judge, a governor, whatever it might be. They were
Speaker 6: all part of this criminal conspiracy. That's how powerful the
Speaker 6: plan was back in the days. And it's amazing when
Speaker 6: we talk about it now to think that these individuals
Speaker 6: had this much power. And it's for the credit of
Speaker 6: the government, of our government of Lyndon Johnson and Jay
Speaker 6: Gerhober that they went in to bust these guys.
Speaker 4: You write in the book, just to show you the
Speaker 4: state of affairs at that time. The judge, Judge Cox,
Speaker 4: gave each of the defendants an average of six years
Speaker 4: in federal prison, and he said after sentencing, they killed
Speaker 4: one nigger, one Jew, and a white man, and they
Speaker 4: gave them all what I thought they deserved. Yes, that
Speaker 4: was a judge speaking. Takes you to the second part
Speaker 4: where incredibly as an old man, justice is served.
Speaker 6: Well, what happens is it's you know what happens is
Speaker 6: and I mean is that in the in the in
Speaker 6: the millennium, what we have is a situation where cold
Speaker 6: case squads are formed to look at old cases. That's
Speaker 6: number one. Number two. A lot of the a lot
Speaker 6: of the Southern not a lot, but the Southern states
Speaker 6: where you've had well known or infamous, rather infamous murders
Speaker 6: of like in Mississippi, a bar and Dela becke With
Speaker 6: killed NAACP leader MegaR Evers in sixty three. In nineteen
Speaker 6: ninety four, Dela beck With is prosecuted. So what happens
Speaker 6: is the law paper, the Clarion Ledger in Philadelphia, Mississippi,
Speaker 6: and Mississippi Attorney General Jim Hood, they push to prosecute
Speaker 6: the murder, the murderers of Schwerner, Goodman, and Cheney. And
Speaker 6: the only two dudes alive at that point that they
Speaker 6: can prosecute are the former deputy Price and brother Edgar Ray.
Speaker 6: Killing that's what they called them. And so the idea
Speaker 6: is to decide whether Killing was responsible for organizing the
Speaker 6: KK came off that so many years before committed these murders,
Speaker 6: and I, you know, and I think it's it's such
Speaker 6: a credit to Mississippi that they did this, you know
Speaker 6: that they went into the millennium and they said, we're
Speaker 6: going to make this right. So the second trial of
Speaker 6: killing began. He's eighty years begins June fifteen, two thousand
Speaker 6: and five. And the guy had a he had been
Speaker 6: in a logging accident. So he's in a wheelchair inhaling oxygen.
Speaker 6: And I actually wrote this, no open flames would be
Speaker 6: allowed in court. Gee, I wonder why I wrote that.
Speaker 6: And killing, you know, he was still an asshole shee
Speaker 6: did I say that on radio? And you know, he
Speaker 6: was like he punched out cameras and so forth and
Speaker 6: so on. And then out of the past, oh my god,
Speaker 6: out of the past. All these people come to testify
Speaker 6: against him. And Schwerner's widow or you name this reader
Speaker 6: schworn a Bender, she testifies for the prosecution, and she
Speaker 6: starts talking in two thousand and five about the civil
Speaker 6: rights struggle in Mississippi years no, I guess it would be. No,
Speaker 6: it's forty years before, and what it was like, and
Speaker 6: she explains how how her husband at the time went
Speaker 6: back to help these people, and so forth and so on,
Speaker 6: and all of a sudden, you know, you've got all
Speaker 6: these years stripped away, and Killing thinks he's gonna get
Speaker 6: away with it. You know, he thinks he's gonna get away.
Speaker 6: He thinks it's gonna be the same thing as a
Speaker 6: Lani thought. And but what happens is the prosecution does
Speaker 6: a magnificent job. They find a former Meridian, Mississippi cop
Speaker 6: and one time clansman named Joe Hatcher, who testifies kill
Speaker 6: him told them where the three young men were barn
Speaker 6: and then you know, the lis goes on from there.
Speaker 6: But what's but what's And then the relatives, you know,
Speaker 6: like Fanny Leech's Haney testifies, Uh, James James Cheney's mom,
Speaker 6: she's in her eighties and she testifies. I mean, prosecution
Speaker 6: did a brilliant job because they were they were tweaking
Speaker 6: the juries. What do you call it? Conscience? So and
Speaker 6: and and you know, it's just a brilliant, brilliant job.
Speaker 6: On the other hand, Harlan Major, who is a former
Speaker 6: mayor of Philadelphia, Mississippi, testifies that Killing was a good man.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, right, he's a good man. Yeah, excuse me, Yeah,
Speaker 6: he's a good man, just like uh. Oh, I don't know,
Speaker 6: she's Vladimir Putin. He's a good man like Vladimir Putin. Sorry,
Speaker 6: I'll try not to get political.
Speaker 4: Go ahead with killing, uh with The brilliant part of
Speaker 4: the prosecution, or the good part of the prosecution is too,
Speaker 4: is that they didn't want to have the idea that
Speaker 4: killing would be prosecuted for murder and if not, you know,
Speaker 4: overwhelmingly convicted of murder, he would have nothing and he
Speaker 4: would walk out and this would be just an exercise
Speaker 4: of futility. So what did they include in this as
Speaker 4: an option for the jurors.
Speaker 6: Well, again, you know, and this is this is so
Speaker 6: interesting because it reflects on other cases that we see today,
Speaker 6: which is the prosecutor decided to bunt for the base hit.
Speaker 6: So what he did was he was all he was
Speaker 6: allowed to say say to the judge and then the jury. Okay,
Speaker 6: if you can't convict them on first degree murder, you
Speaker 6: can convict them on manslaughter, which is a much lesser charge,
Speaker 6: except if you're convicted of If you're eighty years old
Speaker 6: and you're convicted of manslaughter, let's say you get saying
Speaker 6: years for each each each each count, that's thirty years.
Speaker 6: Well that's a life sentence. And so the the the
Speaker 6: state Attorney General, Jim Hood, he was brilliant. I mean,
Speaker 6: I don't know any other word to say. He gave
Speaker 6: the jury that option. And in fact, what happened was
Speaker 6: the jury had some problems coming to a verdict, but
Speaker 6: eventually they convicted killing of killing of I'm sorry, of
Speaker 6: manslaughter for Goodman, Cheney and Schwerner. And that's when and
Speaker 6: then the judge pronounced this sentence and essentially it becomes
Speaker 6: a life sentence. And ironically, the judge, his name was Gordon.
Speaker 6: His family was part of the congregation that Killen used
Speaker 6: to service as a minister. But he but this, this gut.
Speaker 6: This judge does his job. I mean, he does his job.
Speaker 6: I mean, you know, that's why I'm sitting here as
Speaker 6: we're talking, I'm thinking to myself, where are these people today?
Speaker 6: You know, like this reflects so well to me on
Speaker 6: the state of Mississippi and also on the ability of
Speaker 6: the American criminal justice system to bring justice in a
Speaker 6: case like this. And I just think it's wonderful because
Speaker 6: you can't bring the individuals back, but you could certainly
Speaker 6: can settle it. And that's exactly what they did in
Speaker 6: two thousand and five. And of course Killing's lawyers tried
Speaker 6: to appeal the verdict didn't work, and as far as
Speaker 6: I know, I didn't check today. As far as I know,
Speaker 6: the dude is still alive and in prison, which means
Speaker 6: he's going to die behind bars.
Speaker 4: Yes, incredible story.
Speaker 6: Isn't it, Delf. You know what, It's really something. It's
Speaker 6: really something because you know this this was one you know,
Speaker 6: I have to tell you, Dann. This was a case
Speaker 6: that it was under the the the skin of our
Speaker 6: of our entire country, you know what I mean. It
Speaker 6: was one of those things where where you never thought
Speaker 6: it would have, you know, anybody would be responsible, and
Speaker 6: they did it. And again my head is off to
Speaker 6: these people for what they did. And look what they did.
Speaker 6: They they gave closure to the families of the decedents
Speaker 6: and they they they they and they held an individual responsible.
Speaker 6: You can't ask for anything more than that in a
Speaker 6: criminal justice system.
Speaker 4: It is an interesting evolution in Mississippi and the South,
Speaker 4: and it's a message to the Klan and people of
Speaker 4: that kind of mentality. So it is encouraging to say, at.
Speaker 6: Least, it's very encouraging, especially today when you read about
Speaker 6: how you know, the Clan has had the ability to
Speaker 6: rise at various points in our history. You know what
Speaker 6: I mean. You know they rise at various points and
Speaker 6: here's and but what it shows is that good people
Speaker 6: will always win out. And I'm not being naive. This
Speaker 6: is just the way it is. And by the way,
Speaker 6: when the Clan at one point in the nineteen twenties,
Speaker 6: I said to myself that Dan asks me about this,
Speaker 6: I got to mention this. In the nineteen twenties, the
Speaker 6: Clan tried to take over Oklahoma, true story, they tried
Speaker 6: to take over Oklahoma. You know what the governor did
Speaker 6: in the nineteen twenties, Oh my god, he called in
Speaker 6: one of the greatest lawn men of the Old West
Speaker 6: named Bill Tilman. He worked with Bat Masterson in Dodge City,
Speaker 6: and Tillman stopped the Klan. The point now, in that case,
Speaker 6: nobody was going to go up against Tillman because they
Speaker 6: knew he was a fast gun. Okay, But the point
Speaker 6: I'm trying to make is that the Klan rears its
Speaker 6: head periodically in our in our society, and thank God,
Speaker 6: every time that happens, there's somebody to cut their heads off.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, certainly, Yeah.
Speaker 6: You don't have anything.
Speaker 4: Go ahead, I'm sorry, go ahead, Fred No, I was.
Speaker 6: Just gonna say, you don't have anything like that in Canada.
Speaker 6: Do you like the Klan?
Speaker 4: No? We but we do have racism here. As much
Speaker 4: as Canadians would like others to believe that we live
Speaker 4: in a you know, a racial utopia here, we dump
Speaker 4: all our we blame a lot of stuff on the Aboriginals.
Speaker 6: Here.
Speaker 4: Everything is fine if it's what we put a certain face,
Speaker 4: a public face, and on the world stage, you know,
Speaker 4: with powwow dancers, and we're you know, the Prime minister,
Speaker 4: with the ceremonies. And certainly Canada's probably treated their Aboriginal
Speaker 4: people's better than we'll say America, and say better than Australia,
Speaker 4: but that doesn't mean much because they weren't treated well
Speaker 4: in those countries. So I think the same mentality. It's
Speaker 4: it's interesting when you look at how people perceive black
Speaker 4: people and Hispanics and other and Asians, and when you
Speaker 4: look at in Canada too. We can't be immune. There
Speaker 4: are certain people that have this idea that as white people,
Speaker 4: we are superior or adversely, other races are inferior, and
Speaker 4: so I think that mentality still exists. Obviously, some people
Speaker 4: persist with that idea and it continues everywhere.
Speaker 6: You see. This is really that's really wow. You know,
Speaker 6: that's really interesting. I'm going to have to do I'm
Speaker 6: going to have to go and do some reading on
Speaker 6: Canadian history. I have to. I have to plead a
Speaker 6: certain amount of ignorance, So I'm going to have to
Speaker 6: do it. You know, every time I'm along with you,
Speaker 6: I always apologize for Ethan Allen trying to invade Canada
Speaker 6: back in seventeen seventy six. You know, I'm sorry about that.
Speaker 6: You know, I don't know what the hell that idiot was. Thankful. Sorry, gee,
Speaker 6: you think I'm going to carry New Hampshire Now, all right,
Speaker 6: go a hell. Fred. I'm sorry Fred.
Speaker 4: You you had said that you were working on an
Speaker 4: incredible case. And also we were talking about, just before
Speaker 4: we did this interview about James Brown who died apparently
Speaker 4: at seventy three on Christmas Day two thousand and six.
Speaker 6: Marsail your name. You just broke it. Then we didn't
Speaker 6: mention his name. You broke it, buddy. I broke it.
Speaker 6: James Brown. James Brown died. James Brown was taken to
Speaker 6: the hot James Brown, the godfather of Soul, was taken
Speaker 6: to the hospital Emery Hospital in Atlanta in two thousand
Speaker 6: and six on December the twenty fourth, with a drug overdose.
Speaker 6: He was the doctor was able to work it out
Speaker 6: so that he was he was recovering. Its scheduled to
Speaker 6: be released when he suddenly died Christmas morning, December twenty fifth,
Speaker 6: two thousand and six. Wards, it's almost ten years ago.
Speaker 6: And here's where it gets interesting. The family insisted no
Speaker 6: autopsy be performed, so his death certificate reads cause of
Speaker 6: death pneumonia. Well, he cut his children out of his will,
Speaker 6: leaving almost his entire estate approximately one hundred million dollars
Speaker 6: to the I Feel Good to Trust for underprivileged Children. Well,
Speaker 6: soon after he dies, his family sues to break the
Speaker 6: will and they're successful. The trust no longer exists yet,
Speaker 6: though allegedly the family has received a lot of money
Speaker 6: from the estate, it has never been probated. Now, what
Speaker 6: happened was, I've been working on this case for almost
Speaker 6: a year and I just drove thousands of miles to
Speaker 6: Oklahoma and back and involved in Oklahoma City. I saw
Speaker 6: the evidence that James Brown was actually murdered, and I've
Speaker 6: contacted the United States Attorney to let them know about
Speaker 6: my investigation. And I'd like to write a book about it.
Speaker 4: Well, it sounds like people will be interested in reading
Speaker 4: about that. For this interview, I did do a little
Speaker 4: bit of background on James Brown in terms of his
Speaker 4: death and of course the seven children and his fourth
Speaker 4: wife contesting the will and then just frittering away some
Speaker 4: money with this because but also that the role of
Speaker 4: Al Sharpton. Oh, tell us a little bit about who
Speaker 4: was supposedly with him, around him, involved with him.
Speaker 6: Okay, what what? Okay? Al Sharpton? There were there were
Speaker 6: there were two guys. There were three people that that
Speaker 6: James Brown was very close to, and one of them
Speaker 6: was the Reverend Al Sharpton, which I didn't know, by
Speaker 6: the way, until I started on this case. I had
Speaker 6: no idea the Reverend Al Sharpton. Second person is Charles Bobbitt,
Speaker 6: who was his good right hand man. The third person
Speaker 6: is Buddy Dallas, Albert Buddy Dallas, who was his attorney.
Speaker 6: And what happened was that in the in the room
Speaker 6: with him when he died. Charles bobbittt was has already
Speaker 6: admitted publicly that he was in that room with him
Speaker 6: when he died. However, there was another individual who whose
Speaker 6: name has never been made public, and that's part of
Speaker 6: my investigation who was there. Now Sharpton is is not
Speaker 6: involved in in in in any of this or you
Speaker 6: know this part of it about how he died, the
Speaker 6: murdering the Reverendel Sharpton has nothing to do with it.
Speaker 6: But he was a close confidante of James Brown. And
Speaker 6: this is prior to the Tweed Bori case. So so
Speaker 6: Brown every you know, Brown had a problem. He was
Speaker 6: into PCP right and so. But the most important aspect
Speaker 6: of this is this, after James Brown died, his family
Speaker 6: insisted no autopsy be performed. And I can say that
Speaker 6: with a surety that if it was performed, and his
Speaker 6: body currently resides on one of his kids has a
Speaker 6: farm in South Carolina and it's in it's in it
Speaker 6: like what he called a musoleum, sort of a makeshift musoleum.
Speaker 6: He was embalmed. And I believe that if if if
Speaker 6: there was a an autopsy, it would show that the
Speaker 6: man was murdered and again, I you know, I've got
Speaker 6: I've seen the evidence. It's an evolved in Oklahoma City.
Speaker 6: Now what happened? Then?
Speaker 4: Tell us just a little. I mean, I know that
Speaker 4: we're gonna be having you on, I'll have you back
Speaker 4: on to talk about this, and there's more more to
Speaker 4: be said and more to come.
Speaker 6: Obviously, but God, God, Dan, go ahead.
Speaker 4: The thing is you talk. You talk about Buddy Dallas.
Speaker 4: And what's important before we again, just for the for
Speaker 4: the audience to know, is that there was this idea
Speaker 4: that the seven children were going to be He really
Speaker 4: didn't have a good relationship with him. He was affected
Speaker 4: by going into and doing performances in these six children hospitals,
Speaker 4: and he made a commitment at that time because it
Speaker 4: was so affected, that he would spend all his money,
Speaker 4: give his money away to these underprivileged children to educate
Speaker 4: them to make better their lives. So, now, what did
Speaker 4: the Buddy Dallas have to do with at least his
Speaker 4: idea that the children were not going to gain from
Speaker 4: James Brown's death.
Speaker 6: Well, well I can tell you this, mister Dallas. I
Speaker 6: met mister Dallas. I met mister Dallas, and what occurred
Speaker 6: was this when Brown made out his will. He according
Speaker 6: to my information that I got from one of my sources,
Speaker 6: one of my principal sources, Brown said he was going
Speaker 6: to cut his kids out except to give them enough
Speaker 6: money for college education. And and and mister and according
Speaker 6: to my information, mister Dallas was he was trying to
Speaker 6: advise him that he shouldn't he should give them something else,
Speaker 6: something more. And mister Dallas was he was oper you know,
Speaker 6: he was doing the I think the right thing. And
Speaker 6: but that didn't happen. And so the money was left
Speaker 6: to the I Feel good trust. And again when when
Speaker 6: when James Brown died, the family insisted that no autopsy
Speaker 6: be performed, and the doc they're acquiesced, even though Brown
Speaker 6: had gone to the hospital with a drug overdose and
Speaker 6: he died in a very suspicious manner, which I will
Speaker 6: talk about when I hope when I get to write
Speaker 6: this book. And so, mister Dallas, I think operated in
Speaker 6: the right way, you know. And as far as but
Speaker 6: as far as James Brown is concerned, you know, you've
Speaker 6: got forensics, you know, and forensics could actually show, if
Speaker 6: autopsy were performed, that he did not die from pneumonia,
Speaker 6: which is what it says on his death certificate. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and I have I have. I have to tell you
Speaker 6: it's been a it's been a long slob on this.
Speaker 6: I've been working on this case for ten No, it's
Speaker 6: about a lie. I don't know, it's you know, this
Speaker 6: is the twelve months. Hey guy, I haven't even I
Speaker 6: haven't even gotten a publisher or or an agent yet.
Speaker 6: You know, I've been so busy investigating, you know what
Speaker 6: I mean. But it's it's it's uh, it's really something,
Speaker 6: and uh, it's really something. And you know, I I,
Speaker 6: you know, for something reminds me of Lobster Boy actually
Speaker 6: because of the fact that I've seen evidence, you know,
Speaker 6: and I'm involved.
Speaker 4: Yeah, very very exciting, very interesting. We'll be following you
Speaker 4: and and the audience will be following you on this
Speaker 4: one for sure. Certainly.
Speaker 6: Well, I can't tell you how much your support and
Speaker 6: the audience is support means to me. It's it's just
Speaker 6: it's incredible, you know, it's just incredible. You know. Every
Speaker 6: time I do your show, I say to myself, is
Speaker 6: Dan the only one that reads the book? How many
Speaker 6: times do I do an interview with somebody they never
Speaker 6: read the friggin book? You know, yeah, you know, and
Speaker 6: but you know, also the fact of the matter is,
Speaker 6: you know, you yourself are a homicide investigator. You're a journalist,
Speaker 6: and you know and and you're an author, so you know,
Speaker 6: your skill set is much different than a lot of
Speaker 6: individuals who do similar work to what you do.
Speaker 4: Well, thanks, Fred. What it is too is that these
Speaker 4: I think some people just don't have enough time or
Speaker 4: don't see the importance of really reading the entire book
Speaker 4: for an interview. One way or another. That doesn't happen
Speaker 4: for them, but they are missing out for the you know,
Speaker 4: the passion that comes across on the pages of your
Speaker 4: books along with other books. But and then in the
Speaker 4: audience gets that in these interviews and then gives me
Speaker 4: so much feedback, and you know, you get it as
Speaker 4: well from people who have listened to the program and
Speaker 4: just are enamored by our interviews and talking about these
Speaker 4: stories and these cases. So it is a great community
Speaker 4: I think that we're speaking to and involved with, and
Speaker 4: it's my great pleasure to have you on, Fred, and
Speaker 4: it always is because these books are captivating and incredible
Speaker 4: and it's just one good, enjoyable true crime history lesson
Speaker 4: with having you on FRET. So I want to thank
Speaker 4: you very much for coming on and talking about did
Speaker 4: they really do it? And just giving us a tease
Speaker 4: on what's coming up next with the murder of James Brown.
Speaker 4: So thank you ver much.
Speaker 6: Dan. It's my pleasure. And all I'd like to do
Speaker 6: is wish you, your family and friends a healthy and
Speaker 6: a happy new year and everybody that's listening to us,
Speaker 6: because that's the most.
Speaker 4: Important thing, absolutely, Fred. I want to give this opportunity
Speaker 4: to do the same for you as well. I hope
Speaker 4: you have a great holiday season and the best of
Speaker 4: health and the best of success in the new year,
Speaker 4: and I'm sure that will occur. So I want to
Speaker 4: thank you very much, Fred, thank you very much for
Speaker 4: coming on talking about did they really do it? I
Speaker 4: hope to speak you speak with you in the new year.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much.
Speaker 6: Yes, thank you, Darren Audios.
Speaker 4: Good night, Fred, thank you, good night.