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At Shumba casino dot Com. 47 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:06.840 You'll because necessary verb by lost in terms conditions eighteen plus. 48 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:19.280 You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking 49 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:22.400 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 50 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:28.560 written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK. 51 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:33.280 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 52 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:37.479 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 53 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:53.479 your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. Nine 54 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:57.879 of the most controversial violent crimes in America's history are 55 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:03.080 re examined in these compelling stories. True crime doctor Samuel 56 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:06.800 Mudd set John Wilkes Booth's broken ankle, But was he 57 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:11.199 actually part of the larger conspiracy to assassinate President Abraham Lincoln? 58 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:16.240 Did Lizzie Borden bruly murder her own parents in Massachusetts? 59 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:21.400 Was admitted Jihadis Zakari Musawi really involved in a terrorist 60 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:24.080 plot to destroy the World Trade Center on September eleventh, 61 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:28.319 two thousand and one. In a series of provocative and 62 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:32.680 eye opening true crime investigations, author Fred Rosen revisits some 63 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:35.360 of the most shocking and notorious crimes in America over 64 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:38.400 the past two centuries to determine once and for all, 65 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:42.719 did they really do it? Applying logic and techniques of 66 00:03:42.759 --> 00:03:47.719 modern criminology while re examining the crime scenes, official police records, 67 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:51.080 in the original courtroom, testimonies of witnesses and the accused, 68 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:56.319 Rosen explores nine infamous crimes that rocked the nation and 69 00:03:56.360 --> 00:04:00.240 the verdicts that were ultimately handed down. From fall and 70 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:04.439 Julius Rosenberg's execution for treason to the kidnapping and killing 71 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:07.919 of the Lindbergh baby to the klue Klux Klan slayings 72 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:11.639 of three civil rights workers in Mississippi to nine eleven, 73 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:15.759 the alleged perpetrators get another day in court as Rosen 74 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:22.000 calls into question the circumstantial evidence and cultural context that 75 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:26.160 may have determined guilt or innocence in each case. The 76 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.680 book that we're featuring this evening is did they really 77 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:29.959 do It? 78 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:33.720 With my special guests, author and journalist Fred Rosen, Welcome 79 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:35.439 back to the program, and thank you very much for 80 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:39.120 agreeing this interview. Fred Rosen, Dan, it is. 81 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:44.000 As usual a privilege to be on the radio with you. 82 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:45.439 You are sure the best. 83 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:49.560 Thank you, Fred, Thank you very much. It is always 84 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:53.040 a great pleasure and fans have been clamoring for another 85 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:56.040 little bit of Fred Rosen. So here we have you, 86 00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:58.319 and that is fine offering. 87 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:02.519 Gee, if any even a woman, I'm available. 88 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:11.600 Sorry, I'll let them know. I'll let them know. Good ahead, 89 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:15.839 Let's get right into this because we've got a lot 90 00:05:15.879 --> 00:05:20.920 to cover you. We wanted to talk about another something 91 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:23.439 that you're working on, that you're very excited about. Another 92 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:27.000 what one once was thought to be just a normal 93 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:30.920 death is now and you have discovered some information. So 94 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:35.160 in the after the first hour we'll be talking about 95 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:38.000 what has been very important and what you've been working on. 96 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:40.439 So let's leave that for a little bit of suspense 97 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:43.560 for the audience and let's get to did they really 98 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:49.839 do it? What was what was the criteria that you used, 99 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:56.240 what was the how did you choose these stories? And 100 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:58.800 why did you want to use these stories? What did 101 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:00.519 you want to convey in these stories? 102 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:08.120 Well, that's a great question. First off, I love history, 103 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:13.839 and this was an opportunity to use my skill set, 104 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:19.000 to use a current term, to go back and take 105 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:23.920 a look at famous cases in American criminal history and 106 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:28.279 take a look at whether these individuals who were convicted 107 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:35.160 of of of murder actually had done it. And so 108 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:38.519 what I was doing here was I was trying to 109 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:42.879 take a look at those where I felt there was 110 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:49.800 some doubt or some doubt had been put into the 111 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:54.120 equation by others, and so I figured, you know, and 112 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:56.759 actually what I was doing here was I was sort 113 00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:00.279 of following a little bit on what my friend and 114 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:06.399 fellow journalist Gerald Posner had done in Case Closed, which 115 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:11.319 is to use uh, contemporary forensics and so for and 116 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:16.199 and and and the current investigative techniques to take a 117 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:18.600 look at some at the at the guilt or innocence 118 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:23.160 of these individuals. And to be quite frank, a lot 119 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:27.000 of this was stuff that I'd heard about it as 120 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:31.120 a kid, like the civil rights workers, you know, that 121 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:35.000 I grew up with, and the Rosenbergs, for example. I 122 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:38.800 lived in Brooklyn, my my almost my entire life, and 123 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:42.399 every time I would go past the funeral home where 124 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:46.519 their bodies were taken, my dad would say, gee, Freddy, 125 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.199 that's where the Rosenbergs were taken. So that stuff sort of, 126 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:52.560 you know, stays with you. So it was a combination 127 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:59.800 of both personal understanding of what had occurred and at 128 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:04.839 the same time, in the case for instance of Zacharias M. 129 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:09.720 Sally stuff. That's oh kurant, it's to me, it's relevant. 130 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:12.959 And one of the problems I feel that goes on 131 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:17.279 in criminal investigations, and please weigh in on this, is 132 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:28.000 that too often we're very journalists included, were very we're 133 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:33.759 anxious to put responsibility on somebody without really doing the 134 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:39.080 proper investigation and especially using history to take a look 135 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:42.000 at it. And in the case of doctor Samuel Mudd, 136 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:46.679 I mean I was astonished to find out that President 137 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:51.159 Carter has been asked to pardon him. I mean, I 138 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:54.399 couldn't believe it. You know, you know it's and so 139 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:56.919 one of the themes in the book for me is 140 00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:01.519 how the past effects the president and how these cases 141 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:04.639 that you think are back there, Hey buddy, they're not 142 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:08.840 back there. They're still they're still right here. And you know, 143 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:13.080 certain cases, now obviously other cases like if we were 144 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:17.200 talking about Bundie for example, you know, I certainly would 145 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:20.840 leave that to my friend Kevin Sullivan, who's written about 146 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:24.039 it extensively. I mean, that's a difference kind of thing. 147 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:27.399 They're gacy, but these are individuals in the book where 148 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:31.559 there was some doubt about the guilt or innocence. So 149 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:34.440 I was looking for the best cases I could find 150 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:42.320 where I could use my skills and just delves take 151 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:44.720 it deep end. You know you know what I mean? 152 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:50.200 Right? Why don't you tell us because you do a 153 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.440 part one and a part two twice in the book, 154 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:55.159 and we'll just talk about that when we need to. 155 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:58.919 But we talked about the nine infamous cases. So tell 156 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:02.840 us just very very briefly what each shifter of those 157 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:05.360 nine cases are, and then we'll get to I think 158 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:10.840 I'd like to start with with the Lizzie Boordon case. Yeah, 159 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:14.879 and so just describe, describe all the cases that you 160 00:10:14.919 --> 00:10:18.559 do cover, and then we'll let's talk about quite a wildcase, 161 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:19.919 the Lizzi Boardon case. 162 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:27.360 Sure, Doctor Samuel Mudd was convicted by by the Lincoln 163 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:35.559 assassination what do we call it? It was a military jury. 164 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:38.919 Was the last time the United States had a military 165 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:45.639 tribunal that tried a civilian before the twenty first century, 166 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:52.080 regarding the prisoners in Guantanamo. And so Samuel Mudd was 167 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:57.919 convicted of not only setting John Wilkes Boot's ankle after 168 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:03.080 he shot President Lincoln, but also being involved in piracy 169 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:06.559 to kill him, meaning he knew what was going to happen. 170 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:12.080 Then there's Lizzie Borden, who of course killed her parents. 171 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:15.840 That title is called forty The title of that chapter 172 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:18.639 is forty Whacks of Trouble. Well, I was up all 173 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:23.000 night in that one then, and that's an infamous case, 174 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:25.960 and I knew that I had to take a look 175 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:29.039 at that one because one of the first cases I 176 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:32.840 ever worked on murder cases involved paraside, and so I'm 177 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:35.159 very familiar with parasite and I need to take a 178 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:38.960 look at that. Then there was Mary who killed Mary Fagan, 179 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:45.120 which is about Leo Frank who was a Jewish factory 180 00:11:45.159 --> 00:11:50.480 employee and Georgia who was convicted in nineteen fourteen of 181 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:53.480 killing a fourteen year old factory worker. And that was 182 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:58.120 a personal one because I'm Jewish, and I eventually discovered 183 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:02.240 that Leo Frank is the only two ever convicted of 184 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:07.159 murder and was then hung by the ku Klux Klan, 185 00:12:08.279 --> 00:12:12.559 and that was in a way personal. Then I went 186 00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:16.879 to the one who framed who was Bruno framed regarding 187 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:19.360 the Bruno Richard Holtman, who was convicted of killing the 188 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:24.960 Lindbergh baby. Again another very very very big case. And 189 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:27.200 of course, as you go through this stuff. What you 190 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:30.440 find is that it's the stuff in the periphery that 191 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:33.519 gets really interesting, you know, not just the case, but 192 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:37.799 in this in the UH, in the UH, in the 193 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:40.840 Bruno Richard Haltman case, he's convicted of killing the Charles 194 00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:45.440 Lindberg's child, and I didn't know what happened to Lindbergh afterwards. 195 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:47.720 Like then there's a bullet for Pretty Boy, which is 196 00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:51.759 about pretty Boy Floyd, famous outlaw from the nineteen thirties 197 00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:56.240 who was convicted of being involved with the Kansas City massacre, 198 00:12:57.080 --> 00:13:01.399 which involves a killing government agents. And that one what 199 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:05.799 I did because I'd never written about any of the outlaws, 200 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:08.639 you know, like Bonnie and Clyde and so forth. Then 201 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:11.519 the atomic spies Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. That was a 202 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:17.080 really interesting one because, as I mentioned earlier, they were 203 00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:21.279 buried from a funeral home on Flappish Avenue in Brooklyn, 204 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:25.440 where I come from, and I was really interested in, 205 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:28.559 you know, did the you know, obviously did they really 206 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:33.360 do it, because they got death for allegedly turning over 207 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:37.399 atomic secrets of the atomic bombs of the Soviet Union. 208 00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:42.240 And what was real interesting in that case was that 209 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:48.480 was that their their KGP handler. After the Soviet Union 210 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:51.480 collapsed in late nineteen nineties, he went public with information 211 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:55.320 regarding it. Then we get to the murdered civil rights workers. 212 00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:58.679 Oh my god, this one. I remember this as a kid. 213 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:04.039 Fl rights workers Shaney, Goodman and Schwerner were killed by 214 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:10.360 the KKK in Philadelphia, Mississippi. And I never ever thought, 215 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:13.559 as most people would, that anybody would ever be convicted 216 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:16.600 of murdering them. Well, it happened in two thousand and five, 217 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:20.559 so I needed to cover that. Then, of course, the 218 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:24.919 Boston strangler Albert T. Salvo there had I didn't know 219 00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:28.879 this until I got into it, that there was. There 220 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:32.480 was speculation there was more than one dude who had 221 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:36.720 strangled these women in Boston. That was a movie, by 222 00:14:36.759 --> 00:14:40.679 the way, late sixties, probably the best performance ever given 223 00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:44.159 by Tony Curtis, believe it or not. He played Albert Tasalvo. 224 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.360 Then I had to go. I had to do a 225 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:51.720 zacharyas Massali, the twentieth hijacker. He was allegedly the twentieth 226 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:55.799 hijacker in the nine to eleven plot, but as I discovered, 227 00:14:56.360 --> 00:15:00.440 there was evidence to prove that he wasn't, and I 228 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:03.159 was able to. Then in the second part of the 229 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:10.559 book deal with in the present day, Samuel Mudd being 230 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:17.639 his relative his grandson, not great grandson, his grandson ask 231 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:20.080 President Carter to pardon him, and I'm going, what the 232 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:22.639 heck is this about? I missed this story, so you 233 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.919 got to get into that. And then the last chapter 234 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:29.879 is the Murdered Civil Rights The Murdered Civil Rights Workers 235 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:34.399 Part two, where Edgar Ray Killen was tried for being 236 00:15:34.519 --> 00:15:40.200 the grand legal who actually set them up and make 237 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:43.360 sure that they were murdered. So what I was most 238 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:49.200 interested in was how the past affects the present and amazingly, 239 00:15:49.399 --> 00:15:50.679 how a crime could occur. 240 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:51.559 My god. 241 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:56.679 Eighteen sixty five, Samuely Mudd is convicted of killing of 242 00:15:56.720 --> 00:15:59.519 being involved in the plot to kill President Lincoln and 243 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:03.759 boom nineteen seventy eight. Jimmy Carters asked to pardon the 244 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:08.000 excuse me? How do you miss this stuff? So I said, 245 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:09.879 I got to deal with this stuff, and that's how 246 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:10.840 I picked the stories. 247 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:17.120 Now let's just take examine Hardno. 248 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:18.799 Did I go fast enough? Dan? 249 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:25.080 Yes, sir, Now that was great. You've covered an amazing 250 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:28.679 expanse of history and all kinds of cases. All unique. 251 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:32.200 Let's talk about the Lizzie Borden because she was announced 252 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:36.840 not guilty and you have applied again these modern forensic 253 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:40.240 techniques and looking at the evidence again and then very 254 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:43.360 much very important too to look at the time that 255 00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:47.879 this occurred, and like you say, patricide, who knew? So 256 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:54.240 let's talk about Lizzie Borden and this murder of their parents, 257 00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:57.159 and how on earth you talk about one of the attorneys. 258 00:16:57.559 --> 00:16:59.320 I'm jumping ahead a little bit that you said he 259 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.639 was the bailia this time, so I'll get you to 260 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:06.240 explain what was it about him that was so flee baileyish. 261 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:08.319 So let's first talk about it, just a little bit 262 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:13.680 about the the murders themselves and what police found and 263 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:16.880 what they were working with, and then the very very 264 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:18.920 interesting trial that ensued. 265 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:24.759 Yeah, well, what happened was this is this is Massachusetts, 266 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:31.640 uh four River, Massachusetts, And what happened was the bodies 267 00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:39.119 of her parents were discovered and they were, for lack 268 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:42.200 of a better term, they were axed to death. They 269 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:48.400 were murdered with an axe. And the the what the prosecute, 270 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:55.880 the prosecution of course looked at as motive money. The 271 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:57.880 fact that she would inherit. You know, these these were 272 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:01.519 pretty well off people, and so they looked at it 273 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.200 from that point of view. You know, the two classic 274 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:10.440 motives for murder are money and sex, you know, sex, drugs, 275 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:12.039 rock and roll. You know, you can put it any 276 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:18.640 way you want. And I was curious about it because 277 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:20.839 you know, we hear you know, this is like one 278 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:25.640 of those cases you hear about over the years, and 279 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:28.160 there's always a joke about it. You know, I think 280 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.559 there's you know, there's even some rhyme, you know, Lizzie 281 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:35.720 Borden twenty wax or something. I don't remember, but so 282 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:38.480 you know, that's the sort of thing that attracts me 283 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:42.440 to say, okay, well what really happened? And as I 284 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:46.480 looked into it, the first thing that hit me was 285 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:55.160 that this is overkill. Overkill meaning after the person is dead, 286 00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:05.599 you keep going, well, that is a classic m for paraside, 287 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:08.079 which is the murder of a parent, and that occurs 288 00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:12.079 because of certain reasons, which if you want me to 289 00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:19.200 talk about at some point, I'll talk about. And she 290 00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:23.720 had two very well known, influential attorneys working for her. 291 00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:27.880 A guy named George Robinson, who was former governor of 292 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:32.519 Massachusetts Andrew Jennings, who I do describe as the f 293 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:34.680 Lee Bailey of his day. In other words, this is 294 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:39.799 a dude who always took on cases regarding people who 295 00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:43.440 were behind the eight ball and had a tremendous record 296 00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:46.279 of getting them off. And by the way, this is 297 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:51.559 the late eighteen nineties. And again that's the other part 298 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:56.440 that I find so interesting, because so much of this book, 299 00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:03.119 as as well as our history, goes from the late 300 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:06.720 eighteen nineties into the nineteen hundreds into the twentieth century. 301 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:11.200 And so I really wanted to look at Lizzie Borden 302 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:16.799 and find out if she had done it and why. 303 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:20.519 The motive, of course, is always all important, and what 304 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:24.400 the evidence was to show that she had done it 305 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:26.599 versus the evidence to show that she didn't. 306 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:34.000 At the crime scene itself, her excuse was that she 307 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:36.559 was doing some work, something to do with candles in 308 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:40.920 the barn she was and came back into the home 309 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:44.720 and then there was a of course, her mother was 310 00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:47.240 butchered or slaughtered and her father was slaughtered. But they 311 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:49.119 were on different levels. 312 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:50.720 Or different floors, yes, different floors. 313 00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:54.160 So you talk about you talk about modern forensics, but 314 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:57.240 for eighteen ninety two. I was surprised that they did 315 00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:02.079 do some due diligence there in terms of later there 316 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:07.240 was a determination of the importance of finding out who 317 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.240 got killed first. Tell us, yes, that relevance. 318 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:17.960 Well, they wanted to find out, you know, who the 319 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:22.359 father was downstairs. It's where it sort of gets sort 320 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:25.519 of interesting. They they the father was downstairs on like 321 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:31.839 a couch, and and when he was discovered, nobody ever 322 00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:38.359 thought of going upstairs to see what was upstairs, and 323 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:42.640 when they when, when eventually they did, they discovered that 324 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:47.920 missus Borden had been killed. And so the question then 325 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:52.559 becomes who was killed first and why? And I go back. 326 00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:57.119 I have to keep going back to the motive because 327 00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:03.160 what the police missed was the overkilled. They were much 328 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:08.359 too interested in her h what do you call it? 329 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:16.279 Inheriting money, you know. And Lizzie told there was a 330 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.599 doctor that showed up named Bowen o'bowen and and he 331 00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:25.799 told this dude that and that Bowen discovered the body 332 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:30.480 of of mister Bordon downstairs. And Lizzie then said, well, 333 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:33.200 I do not know where mother is. I had been 334 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:35.559 out to the barn and the servant was on the 335 00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:40.440 third floor, okay. And then it takes a little, you know, 336 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:44.200 a couple of minutes later before they find missus Borden. 337 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:48.759 And then it's a question of okay, you know who 338 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:54.000 died first and how did it happen? But Lizzie kept maintaining, Uh, 339 00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:58.000 I'm saying Lizzie like she's my buddy, you know. But 340 00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:01.680 Lizzie kept maintaining that he was someplace else when all 341 00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:11.519 of this occurred. And Bowen later wrote about Missus Borton 342 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:16.839 that her skull had sustained almost exactly the same damage 343 00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:19.799 as her husband by what appeared to be the same weapon, 344 00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:23.440 and he wrote, I think she must have been engaged 345 00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:26.559 in making the bed when the murderer appeared with an 346 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.400 axe or hatchet and made a slash in her. After that, 347 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:34.359 she turned and the fiend, I love that word, chopped 348 00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:36.440 her head as if it had been a cake of ice. 349 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:40.680 One blow killed the woman, but the murderer kept on 350 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:43.119 hacking at her until he was well satisfied that she 351 00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:48.079 was dead. That is the tip off. That's the tip off. 352 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.079 If it's a robbery, you don't do that. You just 353 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:54.960 kill the person, you take the money, and you leave. 354 00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:59.279 Why the overkill and that's what stayed in my mind 355 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:01.759 as I can't looking at this case. 356 00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:07.319 Now. You talked about this doctor and what he had 357 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:10.200 done as well, doctor Bowen, as he had determined through 358 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:14.759 the contents of the stomach that who had died first, 359 00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:17.640 and that there was quite a bit of time between 360 00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:20.200 one murder and another, which was one of the crucial 361 00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:23.319 things at trial. And again lucky she had this f 362 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:26.559 le Bailey type lawyer, because there was also testimony from 363 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:30.480 an Eli Bentz, a pharmacist said that a woman had 364 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:33.960 come in and tried to buy a bottle of hydro 365 00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:39.240 cynac acid and she says, you want to kill some moss. 366 00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:41.799 Because so they had this kind of evidence that and 367 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:44.519 other evidence that there was something maybe that she had 368 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:48.079 tried to actually poison her parents, sort of a die 369 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:53.400 run for murder. Yes, So tell us how it proceeds 370 00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:59.680 at trial. How does Lizzie Gordon get a jury convinced 371 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:04.039 that she's not guilty with all this damaging evidence. I know, 372 00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.599 they don't know anything about patricide. They think that this 373 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:10.960 is the again that you describe the fiend. So tell 374 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:14.400 us more about trial and how she is defended. 375 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:20.559 Well, the point here is that. First off, this kind 376 00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:27.319 of a crime was extremely was extremely rare. It's still 377 00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:33.880 extremely rare. A child killing her or his parents is 378 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:40.000 an extremely rare situation. The second point is that there 379 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:47.440 is no direct evidence that implicates Lizzie Bordon. And yet 380 00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:56.440 you have circumstantial stuff, but there really isn't very much there. 381 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:02.079 I mean, she's saying she was someplace else. Now, there 382 00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:06.640 was a witness that later said that she wrenched out 383 00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:10.720 some garment that one of the seedents had been wearing, 384 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:13.200 or I think it was hers, I don't remember, but 385 00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:20.519 here it is. She was. Yeah, Lizzie was wearing a faded, 386 00:26:20.680 --> 00:26:26.400 light blue calico dress and she was washing it and 387 00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:31.960 somebody saw her doing it and she said, I'm going 388 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:34.279 to burn this dress. It's all covered with paint. Well, 389 00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:40.799 of course it was blood. So you know, you've got 390 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:48.759 you've got a situation where you certainly have some circumstantial evidence, 391 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:53.640 but you don't have any direct evidence. And most importantly, 392 00:26:54.759 --> 00:26:57.799 the motive, the motive, the mode of the motive. I'll 393 00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:01.519 go back to that any number of times. Why would 394 00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:08.400 a woman want to kill her father and her mother? Now, again, 395 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:10.759 the most obvious one would be, oh, I'm going to 396 00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:12.799 inherit a lot of money. Well, if that's the case, 397 00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:17.119 there'd be a lot more murders in all of our countries. 398 00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:21.599 But that is not the reason that this occurred, and 399 00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:26.440 that is not the reason why this crime occurred. So, 400 00:27:28.519 --> 00:27:35.119 you know, I was really into trying to determine what 401 00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:42.000